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Severlin
07-09-2015, 03:55 PM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

cru121
07-09-2015, 04:01 PM
Looks like a step in the right direction.

Saekee
07-09-2015, 04:04 PM
Sev this is exciting and thx for the post. Will there be bonuses if no one dies in a party/PUG? Something to add incentive to not abandon other players.

Memnir
07-09-2015, 04:09 PM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.http://i.imgur.com/7UFg7Qa.gif

Severlin
07-09-2015, 04:09 PM
Sev this is exciting and thx for the post. Will there be bonuses if no one dies in a party/PUG? Something to add incentive to not abandon other players.

The current death penalty was supposed to do that, but from the feedback we received it ended up being more of a disincentive to grouping than a reward for helping people through the quest.

Sev~

Qhualor
07-09-2015, 04:11 PM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

1. theres another nail towards less reasons for teamwork in a group.

2. fine with that.

3. glad to see something is being done about this, but annoying having to run back and forth to the Hall to turn on/off BB. hopefully there will be some kind of checkbox or something when clicking on the quest, picking up the quest at the quest giver, in the options section of the panel or something.

4 & 5. there is more than enough xp in this game and its become too much of a focal point now. im saying it now in black and white, people who want to group will group and people who want to solo will solo regardless of the extra xp. we will see more complaints from soloists on this extra xp rewards. I seriously doubt there will be a significant increase in grouping with these changes. the actual problem is still not being addressed.

Saekee
07-09-2015, 04:14 PM
The current death penalty was supposed to do that, but from the feedback we received it ended up being more of a disincentive to grouping than a reward for helping people through the quest.

Sev~

Thx for the prompt reply! Note, though, that there are carrots vs sticks. The penalty was a stick to help fellow players and this proposal will remove it. Was just curious if there would be a carrot to aiding them.

In past threads on this topic, this was hotly debated. I anticipate that this theme will come up again.

btolson
07-09-2015, 04:14 PM
~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

Sev~

Is there going to be some lengthy timer associated with suppressing and reactivating a streak? If not, I'm uncertain how this differs substantially from simply removing Bravery altogether and upping first time completions on hard/elite by X/Y% to compensate, which would be easier to implement and one less intricacy to teach new players about.

Forerunner
07-09-2015, 04:18 PM
all looks good to me

Saekee
07-09-2015, 04:19 PM
1. theres another nail towards less reasons for teamwork in a group.

2. fine with that.

3. glad to see something is being done about this, but annoying having to run back and forth to the Hall to turn on/off BB. hopefully there will be some kind of checkbox or something when clicking on the quest, picking up the quest at the quest giver, in the options section of the panel or something.

4 & 5. there is more than enough xp in this game and its become too much of a focal point now. im saying it now in black and white, people who want to group will group and people who want to solo will solo regardless of the extra xp. we will see more complaints from soloists on this extra xp rewards. I seriously doubt there will be a significant increase in grouping with these changes. the actual problem is still not being addressed.

Great points. Note, though, another part of the argument. I think people tend to take the perspective of the person who loses xp when someone else croaks in the party. But let's not forget how awful it feels when You are that one-death in the xp report. I wonder how many people who are new, with flavor toons, off-destiny, undergeared etc avoid groups so as to not be a burden? This has happened in my case, for what it is worth--I've been in situations where I didn't want to burden others so I solo'd.

jjflanigan
07-09-2015, 04:21 PM
The current death penalty was supposed to do that, but from the feedback we received it ended up being more of a disincentive to grouping than a reward for helping people through the quest.

Sev~

I always wondered why it was implemented the way it was. A better way (just in my opinion) to have it implemented would be for it to give a bonus at the end of the quest for each person in the group that didn't die. 2% per person would be good. That would encourage running with a full group because, worst case, you get the exact same you would have gotten alone, and best case you could get an extra 10%. Could even do 2% for no deaths, 1% for one death, 0% for more than one deaths from a person.

Makes it so another person's death doesn't penalize the player, and also encourages grouping because you have a greater chance for exp bonuses -- two birds with one stone.

-JJ

Full_Bleed
07-09-2015, 04:23 PM
Definite improvements.


~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.
As a replacement for "flawless" this is better... but...

I really wish there was something more like a base +10% Survival bonus with a -1% per death so people didn't get reckless after dying. I really think a less all-or-none approach would be more productive in shaping more cooperative and positive behaviors. And, sadly, the above opens the door for griefing.



~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

Both excellent changes.

Though the suppression would be more convenient as a checkbox at adventure entrance and/or a UI option to auto-suppress breaking streak so people aren't holding groups up running to the hall to suppress or forgetting to unsuppress.



We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sounds like fun additions.

Uska
07-09-2015, 04:25 PM
Sorry its terrible and more dumbing down, the loss of the bonus was to encourage teamwork. I cant say I care for it at all

Severlin
07-09-2015, 04:26 PM
I always wondered why it was implemented the way it was. A better way (just in my opinion) to have it implemented would be for it to give a bonus at the end of the quest for each person in the group that didn't die. 2% per person would be good. That would encourage running with a full group because, worst case, you get the exact same you would have gotten alone, and best case you could get an extra 10%. Could even do 2% for no deaths, 1% for one death, 0% for more than one deaths from a person.

Makes it so another person's death doesn't penalize the player, and also encourages grouping because you have a greater chance for exp bonuses -- two birds with one stone.

-JJ

We didn't do something like this because it would be a nerf to solo XP.

Sev~

Uska
07-09-2015, 04:26 PM
Looks like a step in the right direction.

No its not

Uska
07-09-2015, 04:27 PM
The current death penalty was supposed to do that, but from the feedback we received it ended up being more of a disincentive to grouping than a reward for helping people through the quest.

Sev~

Now I have less incentive to group myself really. I miss the old days where solo was more difficult d&d is a group game you guys are ruining that more and more.

Hafeal
07-09-2015, 04:32 PM
Sev, thanks for the news. IMO, all of these are moves in a good direction to help lfms.



1. theres another nail towards less reasons for teamwork in a group.


Q, the problem, frankly, is that the 'bonus' became perceived as a 'penalty' and a metric to exclude players from groups and a way to lead to conflict when players died. At least now, maybe, some of the TR zergs will put up an lfm and let people ride on their tails whilst they level without worry about their max xp being devalued. After all, solo does not equal teamwork.

In fact, now, teamwork will be tested - will the TR, xp zerger be helpful to the rag tag bunch behind them? Will the rag tag help the zerg when he rolls 1 and goes *ping* dead quite humorously and unexpectedly? ;)

Tom116
07-09-2015, 04:35 PM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

This should help out new players a lot, glad to see grouping being encouraged. We need some new blood :)

One question though, why make the extra xp per person in a quest an event? Seems like a great incentive to group up, maybe just cap it at 1ce per quest per day and don't make it a TON of extra xp. Even something like 4% extra per person, making it +20% at a full 6 man group?

Angelic-council
07-09-2015, 04:40 PM
Finally :)

I been saying this for so long now. It was weird that we lose exp just because someone else died in our party. It's not my fault that I died, so I don't need to lose any exp. This is a positive change. +1

ValariusK
07-09-2015, 04:41 PM
The deaths change is a good one. I don't get bent out of shape when I put up a LFM and start a quest, come close to finishing it, have a couple people join right near the end, and have one of them die for -10%. But frankly I'm weird and a lot of people probably do get greatly annoyed by that. You might also consider an additional penalty (perhaps an extra -10%) for 3+ deaths and perhaps another -10% for 10+ deaths.
The deaths change for hirelings is also good, given how stupid hires are behaving right now.
Suppressing bravery bonus as an option will help, but probably more on raids than on basic quests. Any way you could just set bravery streak bonuses to just not break? Or even to have each quest where you would normally 'break' a streak to just decrement each relevant streak count by 5? Visiting an NPC is likely to be clunky for most people in practice who will probably just do it for running MOD/FOT/CITW/thunderholme raids on EN or EH.

Here are another couple of suggestions:
If you set up a LFM, the default is your level -2 to your level +2. This means that default groups are likely to inflict powerlevelling xp penalty on the lowbies in the group. Can we adjust the powerlevel penalty accordingly or change the LFM system? Also, given the nature of the game right now, the person being 'powerlevelled' is often an at least equally contributing member of the team, especially if they're a multiple TR with good gear and a strong build. Any way to make the power level penalty conditional on, well, actually being powerlevelled? Certainly the penalty can be the basic presumption, but some index of healing/trapping/killing/etc might be used to reduce or eliminate said penalty---e.g., if someone is leading the kill counts, providing the full trapping bonus, or providing a lot of timely heals and support, they're probably not really being powerleveled.
Also, can we make it a little quicker to set up a group posting through the LFM system. For instance, a 1-click button to set up a bravery bonus group for the instance I'm presently inside of (hard if I'm in hard, elite if I'm in elite)---you get the idea. Maybe even give me the option to automatically reject any incoming request that would break the bravery bonus (this can be annoying sometimes when I am in the middle of fighting through a quest and you start getting LFG requests popping up and the math isn't right when you add up their levels---especially if I'm kiting things around).

Enoach
07-09-2015, 04:43 PM
Thx for the prompt reply! Note, though, that there are carrots vs sticks. The penalty was a stick to help fellow players and this proposal will remove it. Was just curious if there would be a carrot to aiding them.

In past threads on this topic, this was hotly debated. I anticipate that this theme will come up again.

See here in lies the problem. The No Deaths was implemented as a Bonus, but treated by a large part of the DDO population as a Penalty. It was ours to earn which should have generated teamwork, but out of this came a population of "I don't want someone else losing my XP". I think part of the problem is that it is listed on the XP report from the start and disappears once someone die.


Great points. Note, though, another part of the argument. I think people tend to take the perspective of the person who loses xp when someone else croaks in the party. But let's not forget how awful it feels when You are that one-death in the xp report. I wonder how many people who are new, with flavor toons, off-destiny, undergeared etc avoid groups so as to not be a burden? This has happened in my case, for what it is worth--I've been in situations where I didn't want to burden others so I solo'd.

I've spent many a time consoling someone that was have a hard time because they had experienced someone that was mad at them because they died.


--------------------------
Now on another note and I'm not sure how this can be handled, but what about situations in quests where a player can kill other players. Quests like Undermine and Blown to Bits come to mind. as well as The Shipwrecked Spy. These quests have a mechanic which can be and has been abused. I imagine if these quests were around when a player lost XP the griefing that could have been done...

But I can also see people bringing others along to "take one for the team" to handle situations where dying is a possibility. Such as pulling a trapped lever when no one to disable (Wiz King has a few of these)

Personally I would have preferred to see this bonus go away all together and replaced with "Everyone Alive and at the 'End' of the Quest" on completion bonus. It would make it so that it is better if you make sure everyone can make it to the end instead of leaving people behind.

Severlin
07-09-2015, 04:45 PM
There are technical reasons for the bravery suppression to be tied to an NPC.

I brought up concerns with the team about convenience, and we are planning to also add the NPC to guild airships.

Sev~

Aerle
07-09-2015, 04:47 PM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~


Sounds like a great idea. I've always enjoyed questing with others but find it discouraging to open PUG's because I like my flawless victory xp :)

Kylstrem
07-09-2015, 04:47 PM
There are technical reasons for the bravery suppression to be tied to an NPC.

I brought up concerns with the team about convenience, and we are planning to also add the NPC to guild airships.

Sev~

Needs to be the captain. We have 4 or 5 levels in our guild ship and having to search this guy out will be as painful as the Hall of Heroes.

Qhualor
07-09-2015, 04:52 PM
Q, the problem, frankly, is that the 'bonus' became perceived as a 'penalty' and a metric to exclude players from groups and a way to lead to conflict when players died. At least now, maybe, some of the TR zergs will put up an lfm and let people ride on their tails whilst they level without worry about their max xp being devalued. After all, solo does not equal teamwork.

In fact, now, teamwork will be tested - will the TR, xp zerger be helpful to the rag tag bunch behind them? Will the rag tag help the zerg when he rolls 1 and goes *ping* dead quite humorously and unexpectedly? ;)

players that like to zerg are doing it with an lfm or without regardless. this change just means to me that its ok to continue to play sloppily and makes the zerging more bearable from an xp stand point. its also been pointed out many times that losing the Flawless bonus is about the same as an optional in a quest. over the years we have seen an increase in xp gained from tomes, VIP, quest xp revamps, MM, etc. in game, if players disliked not getting Flawless Bonus, it was extremely rare for them to be vocal about it in the past few years. I saw more complaints about it on the forums than in game and I have a hard time believing it was a high per cent. Flawless bonus should represent encouraging teamwork and playing smarter.

no. the TR zerger will play the same as always.

Severlin
07-09-2015, 04:52 PM
Needs to be the captain. We have 4 or 5 levels in our guild ship and having to search this guy out will be as painful as the Hall of Heroes.

Ideally he'd be standing top deck next to the buff device.

Sev~

Hoglum
07-09-2015, 04:56 PM
The No Deaths was implemented as a Bonus, but treated by a large part of the DDO population as a Penalty.


Likewise, the "grouping bonus" will simply become a "soloing penalty".

ValariusK
07-09-2015, 04:56 PM
Since we're discussing groups, can we also address a big issue on the other side of the grouping equation? Specifically guilds.

There are a lot of hollow guilds out there that would be much better for the game if they merged into a much smaller number of healthy guilds. But human factors and human nature generally prevent this from happening with any regularity. Part of it is the whole 'sunk cost' thing that human beings are really horrible at.

But if you created some kind of guild merger mechanism---say make it require unanimous consent for the guild to be swallowed for one week---and had it apply some small fraction of the guild renown of the swallowed guild to the swallowing one (I suggest 1/6, as that offsets and then some any guild size modifier on the earning of that renown and makes it so starting several 6 person guilds and then having a big merger is not any kind of exploit)---we might be able to induce a fair amount of merging activity on most servers, which would help grouping prospects for a lot of people.

They can already do this you might say....But...they generally won't.

Hafeal
07-09-2015, 04:58 PM
Likewise, the "grouping bonus" will simply become a "soloing penalty".

*shrug*

It is an MMO and a social game. The intent and design is to group. Difficulty should be designed at a group level.

Soloing is still very possible and doable; soloing not getting the same xp as a group? Quite all right in my book.

Postumus
07-09-2015, 05:00 PM
1. theres another nail towards less reasons for teamwork in a group.




Wow.

jakeelala
07-09-2015, 05:00 PM
NM:

just saw that suppression requires an NPC.

Postumus
07-09-2015, 05:01 PM
There are technical reasons for the bravery suppression to be tied to an NPC.

I brought up concerns with the team about convenience, and we are planning to also add the NPC to guild airships.

Sev~


Now THAT would be nice!

Postumus
07-09-2015, 05:06 PM
But if you created some kind of guild merger mechanism---


This mechanism exists now:


1) Guild A and Guild B agree to merge

2) Guild A is bigger and has more amenities so Guild A agrees to absorb Guild B

3) Guild B members quit Guild B

4) Guild A recruits former Guild B members

5) Merger complete

nomaddog
07-09-2015, 05:06 PM
I think these are great steps in the right direction. You are not going to be able to make everyone happy, but I see this as a positive thing. It seems to be a good balance. I especially like the fact that my dumb hireling won't knock off xp when they decide to stand in a trap.

I also like the BB toggle. I think back to the days when I first started playing and would run Redwillows, Gwylans, Tear, and Stormcleave as a four pack but on different difficulties. So, kudos for the changes and if for some reason this doesn't help with grouping, then I will be the first to eat Memnir's hat.

Ape_Man
07-09-2015, 05:09 PM
Wonderful ideas.

HatsuharuZ
07-09-2015, 05:09 PM
I like all of these changes. I'll probably be using this suppressive NPC a lot in epics.

Also, since you're making changes to how players get exp, I'd like to suggest two "bonuses" to add, in order to reduce player dependency on Bravery and First-Time bonuses, as well as to promote teamwork:

1) Samaritan Bonus: Gain % bonus to quest experience for the number of times group members have cast healing spells via scrolls, wands or spell points on other players. There would be a cap on this bonus, depending on the length of the quest.

2) Wordplay Bonus: Gain % bonus to quest experience for the number of time party members have *successfully* used the Intimidate, Bluff or Diplomacy feats on enemies.

JonD
07-09-2015, 05:09 PM
There are technical reasons for the bravery suppression to be tied to an NPC.

I brought up concerns with the team about convenience, and we are planning to also add the NPC to guild airships.

Sev~


Needs to be the captain. We have 4 or 5 levels in our guild ship and having to search this guy out will be as painful as the Hall of Heroes.

The captain already handles Airship locations and Farshifter locations. I'd suggest the First Mate, who is also on the top deck and currently only deals with amenities.

ValariusK
07-09-2015, 05:14 PM
This mechanism exists now:


1) Guild A and Guild B agree to merge

2) Guild A is bigger and has more amenities so Guild A agrees to absorb Guild B

3) Guild B members quit Guild B

4) Guild A recruits former Guild B members

5) Merger complete


Did you read my post? There's a reason why this almost never happens, and its not an entirely rational reason. People feel they are losing their investment in guild B. Make a formal merger mechanism with some small renown transfer and you'll overcome some of that inertia. Rational Economic man doesn't play DDO much.

geoffhanna
07-09-2015, 05:15 PM
If there is a down side to this, I am not seeing it

Silverleafeon
07-09-2015, 05:20 PM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

/signed

100% support and applaud these changes

Thank you, this addresses the most serious grouping problems in a good way.

Keep up the good work!

Silverleafeon
07-09-2015, 05:22 PM
Ideally he'd be standing top deck next to the buff device.

Sev~

Sounds like everything is covered, hopefully this is an auto granted npc standard on every airship.

Well done.

Ape_Man
07-09-2015, 05:22 PM
Did you read my post? There's a reason why this almost never happens, and its not an entirely rational reason. People feel they are losing their investment in guild B. Make a formal merger mechanism with some small renown transfer and you'll overcome some of that inertia. Rational Economic man doesn't play DDO much.

having absorbed several guilds, no you aren't correct.

Sebastrd
07-09-2015, 05:23 PM
We didn't do something like this because it would be a nerf to solo XP.

Sev~

I'm not sure that's a bad thing, and I say that as someone who solos often.

Oxarhamar
07-09-2015, 05:27 PM
/signed

100% support and applaud these changes

Thank you, this addresses the most serious grouping problems in a good way.

Keep up the good work!

Agreed.

Same naysayers here that have always been against removal of Group wide flawless bonus claiming it encouraged teamwork when it accomplished the exact opposite.

Glad the Dev's listened.

Hafeal
07-09-2015, 05:30 PM
I saw more complaints about it on the forums than in game and I have a hard time believing it was a high per cent. Flawless bonus should represent encouraging teamwork and playing smarter.

no. the TR zerger will play the same as always.

That has been far from my experience.

Power creep has made the game easily soloable; especially in Heroic levels. The added penalty players received of losing xp 'carrying' other players has contributed to less teamwork and more soloing.

While this change is not the silver bullet of solving the "lfm problem", it is a move in that direction and a pro-active step to take away a disincentive to post an lfm. Add in the BB suppression, I am hopeful this will lead to a sea change in taking us back toward a more social, group friendly game, as opposed to the isolated, lonely, solo mode it had morphed into - particularly for new and casual players.

Uska
07-09-2015, 05:31 PM
Sev, thanks for the news. IMO, all of these are moves in a good direction to help lfms.




Q, the problem, frankly, is that the 'bonus' became perceived as a 'penalty' and a metric to exclude players from groups and a way to lead to conflict when players died. At least now, maybe, some of the TR zergs will put up an lfm and let people ride on their tails whilst they level without worry about their max xp being devalued. After all, solo does not equal teamwork.

In fact, now, teamwork will be tested - will the TR, xp zerger be helpful to the rag tag bunch behind them? Will the rag tag help the zerg when he rolls 1 and goes *ping* dead quite humorously and unexpectedly? ;)

There is now zero insentive to do teamwork with non-guildies I will be much less likely to buff or heal any more and it will be the same across the board. All they are doing is giving more and more incentive to look for a replacement but I dont think there is a MMO but lucky there is roll20

arkonas
07-09-2015, 05:31 PM
Did you read my post? There's a reason why this almost never happens, and its not an entirely rational reason. People feel they are losing their investment in guild B. Make a formal merger mechanism with some small renown transfer and you'll overcome some of that inertia. Rational Economic man doesn't play DDO much.

there are a few things i can see people will not like that for. for example some just want to be alone. so they will be against that. 2. some just want a small group of friends. then there is the type of people in a guild that is the biggest factor to any guild. you don't want to combine the wrong guilds together or you promote drama. turbine should never force guilds together... this will always be our decision to protect themselves just because such guild and such guild need it. that wont work. then the last note would be some just like it for the name.


now a real option would be change the channel for chatting. its crappy that the system is based on areas when we all know there is very few people in certain areas. it would be better if it was a global chat. such as level based 1-10 1-20 20+ etc.

Postumus
07-09-2015, 05:32 PM
Did you read my post? There's a reason why this almost never happens, and its not an entirely rational reason. People feel they are losing their investment in guild B. Make a formal merger mechanism with some small renown transfer and you'll overcome some of that inertia. Rational Economic man doesn't play DDO much.

Sorry I wasn't trying to be snarky, just concise.


I've seen guild absorption happen before, and I've certainly guild defection (which essentially accomplishes the same thing) where a significant group leaves Guild A to go to Guild B.


I'm not saying adding an incentive wouldn't, perhaps, get some guilds to merge, but IMO I think it would be unlikely for many guilds to take advantage of it because if people like the group they are playing with, they won't want to merge with another guild. I suppose a few people would be reluctant to change guilds simply because of the time/effort they put into building one, but really how is that any different than a merger?

Uska
07-09-2015, 05:32 PM
Finally :)

I been saying this for so long now. It was weird that we lose exp just because someone else died in our party. It's not my fault that I died, so I don't need to lose any exp. This is a positive change. +1

It sis not werid it makes sense it is supose to be a group game this is MY LEAST LIKED Change yet.

Postumus
07-09-2015, 05:33 PM
now a real option would be change the channel for chatting. its crappy that the system is based on areas when we all know there is very few people in certain areas. it would be better if it was a global chat. such as level based 1-10 1-20 20+ etc.

Something like this.

Postumus
07-09-2015, 05:35 PM
While this change is not the silver bullet of solving the "lfm problem", it is a move in that direction and a pro-active step to take away a disincentive to post an lfm.


I predict this change will have zero measurable impact on LFMs. A few years ago? Probably.

Hafeal
07-09-2015, 05:35 PM
There is now zero insentive to do teamwork with non-guildies I will be much less likely to buff or heal any more and it will be the same across the board. All they are doing is giving more and more incentive to look for a replacement but I dont think there is a MMO but lucky there is roll20

What are you talking about? What incentive is being taken away?

The quests haven't changed. The difficulty hasn't changed.

What will change? You will hopefully see MORE lfms and you will see more players in groups.

How does this in any way affect how YOU interact with fellow players with regard to buffing? Seriously? You won't buff or plan now because you won't care if someone dies over the -10%? You mean to say that was the ONLY reason you buffed before? Geez.

Hafeal
07-09-2015, 05:36 PM
I predict this change will have zero measurable impact on LFMs. A few years ago? Probably.

Could be too little, too late.

The reality is that they lose nothing by trying.

Silverleafeon
07-09-2015, 05:37 PM
~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses.

Sev~

Just 3 days ago, running the Thunderhelm Dragon Raids on Fawn's typical EH setting and had a conversation with a player about "Will this break my elite streak?" We made certain of our answer, and it was "Yes." So the player just wished me luck and did not join the raid.

This change is so important, and will actually make Fawn start building a bravery streak again, as up to now, its been like, "Whatever?!?"

cdbd3rd
07-09-2015, 05:37 PM
...

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.


Like these! :)




We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~


Hmmm. Am not as thrilled with these concepts. The cut between Heroic and Epic bonuses already excludes a lot of folks one way or another on those weekends. This is just going to add another divisive aspect to the bonus rotation.

(Posted in reply to just the OP. Haven't read the rest of the thread yet.)

arkonas
07-09-2015, 05:38 PM
There is now zero insentive to do teamwork with non-guildies I will be much less likely to buff or heal any more and it will be the same across the board. All they are doing is giving more and more incentive to look for a replacement but I dont think there is a MMO but lucky there is roll20

yeah but under the old system people got mad if you died and it still happens. this time it doesn't matter. let me say it this way. those same people with the changes or not will still not help your fellow party mates. whenever i saw a lfm that said don't die. it will have meant exactly that. now under the new xp those lfms should disappear because it wont effect the party leader anymore. they might still see it as a pain, but then they become the jerk for just leaving you there. so no matter what its on the people who play to change themselves not turbine.


people would need to change in general to be more helpful towards others instead of being a jerk. nothing turbine can do to change that ever. this is where personalities clash and the play styles happen. we might see a little more grouping sure. but the flowersniffing and zerging will collide like it does now.

Uska
07-09-2015, 05:38 PM
What are you talking about? What incentive is being taken away?

The quests haven't changed. The difficulty hasn't changed.

What will change? You will hopefully see MORE lfms and you will see more players in groups.

How does this in any way affect how YOU interact with fellow players with regard to buffing? Seriously? You won't buff or plan now because you won't care if someone dies over the -10%? You mean to say that was the ONLY reason you buffed before? Geez.

teamwork incentive you were encouraged to help you group members or loose the bonus this change is dumb

Postumus
07-09-2015, 05:38 PM
There is now zero insentive to do teamwork with non-guildies...

What about just being a good person and a good teammate? That is incentive enough for me. The 10% never mattered to me, but doing my part and helping however I can always has. Just like every team game.




I will be much less likely to buff or heal any more and it will be the same across the board.


I guess that answers my question. Wowsers.

FranOhmsford
07-09-2015, 05:39 PM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

Yes!


~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

Yes!!!


~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

YES!!!!!


We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

Thank You!

Silverleafeon
07-09-2015, 05:40 PM
By the way, players have asked me directly or indirectly that question over a hunderedish time during the past few years about end game raids.

Fawn will not apologize for running raids at a setting that she is comfortable with the success rate.

Uska
07-09-2015, 05:40 PM
yeah but under the old system people got mad if you died and it still happens. this time it doesn't matter. let me say it this way. those same people with the changes or not will still not help your fellow party mates. whenever i saw a lfm that said don't die. it will have meant exactly that. now under the new xp those lfms should disappear because it wont effect the party leader anymore. they might still see it as a pain, but then they become the jerk for just leaving you there. so no matter what its on the people who play to change themselves not turbine.


people would need to change in general to be more helpful towards others instead of being a jerk. nothing turbine can do to change that ever. this is where personalities clash and the play styles happen. we might see a little more grouping sure. but the flowersniffing and zerging will collide like it does now.

This change will mean people will help group members less although some may group a little more there is no encouragment to help them since it wont matter if they die where as before people needed to help make sure the whole group survived if they wanted to keep the bonus.

Silverleafeon
07-09-2015, 05:43 PM
I will be much less likely to buff or heal any more

Tell me, if Fawn used her Jibber's Blade, killed the end boss of a raid, then cast your toon rez scroll before expiring a necrotic death, would you bother to "waste" a raise dead scroll so she could loot her raid chest?

Hmmm?


And yes folks Fawn has Jibbered for the win before in a raid.


Never mind, most raids has Rez shrines appearing, maybe for that reason after then ending.
Something to keep in mind for the future Devs.

Postumus
07-09-2015, 05:43 PM
Like these! :)


Hmmm. Am not as thrilled with these concepts. The cut between Heroic and Epic bonuses already excludes a lot of folks one way or another on those weekends. This is just going to add another divisive aspect to the bonus rotation.

(Posted in reply to just the OP. Haven't read the rest of the thread yet.)

Well these


~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.


Are what six or seven posters in this forum have been asking for, but as I said in other threads, I honestly think this will encourage more multi-boxing than grouping. But if the metric of success is sheer number of accounts logging in, then multi-boxing will also boost this metric and maybe Turbine doesn't care if whether six different people sign on, or if just six different accounts sign on?

arkonas
07-09-2015, 05:43 PM
What are you talking about? What incentive is being taken away?

The quests haven't changed. The difficulty hasn't changed.

What will change? You will hopefully see MORE lfms and you will see more players in groups.

How does this in any way affect how YOU interact with fellow players with regard to buffing? Seriously? You won't buff or plan now because you won't care if someone dies over the -10%? You mean to say that was the ONLY reason you buffed before? Geez.

i think this will effect the people who do help others because they're friendlier and they have that rule of no one left behind. the only people who wont be effected are those that cared if you died. now they might let you in but ignore you. that is more of a personal behavior thing then anything else.



Could be too little, too late.

The reality is that they lose nothing by trying.

maybe. reason i say this is look at some of the other games that people said would have died but haven't like ultima online and everquest. they keep adapting and adding new changes to keep the game alive. it could end like Heroes. lol we all know cryptic.

Hafeal
07-09-2015, 05:44 PM
teamwork incentive you were encouraged to help you group members or loose the bonus this change is dumb

You shouldn't need a 'bonus' to be a good teammate.

You shouldn't need an 'incentive' to buff and heal.

Being in a group attempting to achieve a goal has the inherent responsibility that you will do what you need to do for the group.

I strongly disagree with your assessment that the change is 'dumb' and I certainly find nothing in your logic that supports keeping the status quo - in fact - if anything, it strengthens my view of how needed this change is.

Lonnbeimnech
07-09-2015, 05:45 PM
So this 'suppression', is it going to be

1. talk to the guy and the next quest has no BB
2. talk to the guy and for the next hour there is no BB
3. or is it a toggle, BB is suppressed until you return to him and turn it back on?

Postumus
07-09-2015, 05:46 PM
Tell me, if Fawn used her Jibber's Blade, killed the end boss of a raid, then cast your toon rez scroll before expiring a necrotic death, would you bother to "waste" a raise dead scroll so she could loot her raid chest?

Hmmm?



Well I would. I think most people would. That's why I think Uska may be re-thinking his previous post. Personally, I have met far fewer selfish players in DDO than helpful, team-oriented players.

Qhualor
07-09-2015, 05:47 PM
That has been far from my experience.

Power creep has made the game easily soloable; especially in Heroic levels. The added penalty players received of losing xp 'carrying' other players has contributed to less teamwork and more soloing.

While this change is not the silver bullet of solving the "lfm problem", it is a move in that direction and a pro-active step to take away a disincentive to post an lfm. Add in the BB suppression, I am hopeful this will lead to a sea change in taking us back toward a more social, group friendly game, as opposed to the isolated, lonely, solo mode it had morphed into - particularly for new and casual players.

if you are expecting to see anything more than a slight increase in lfm/grouping activity over these changes or see an increase in team play, than im sorry to say in my opinion you will be wrong. I am marking my words on this and I don't do this hardly ever unless I feel very strongly about something, but I do hope you are right and I am wrong. I seriously want to be wrong on this, but I see daily how DDO is played and the attitude overall players have. this is a huge benefit for the zergers, casuals and those that have always looked at losing the miniscule Flawless Bonus as a penalty. you are right that this is not the silver bullet and the devs have said the proper way to address the actual problem is too big of a project, but what this is is band aid fix.

arkonas
07-09-2015, 05:48 PM
This change will mean people will help group members less although some may group a little more there is no encouragment to help them since it wont matter if they die where as before people needed to help make sure the whole group survived if they wanted to keep the bonus.

at the same point though those people never cared about xp either i met as i played. the real players die and do help each other. no matter what its a player issue. i've only played on argo and i've noticed a lot of players and styles. most people didn't care if you died or loss the xp. most would help you or come back for you etc. i always tried to save someone if i could. even under this new change i still will because its who i am. this change won't change who i am on the inside. i still will be a helpful player. the only type i will never help are the rude player who make the game just not fun to play with.

the ones who don't listen, rude in general etc.

arkonas
07-09-2015, 05:49 PM
You shouldn't need a 'bonus' to be a good teammate.

You shouldn't need an 'incentive' to buff and heal.

Being in a group attempting to achieve a goal has the inherent responsibility that you will do what you need to do for the group.

I strongly disagree with your assessment that the change is 'dumb' and I certainly find nothing in your logic that supports keeping the status quo - in fact - if anything, it strengthens my view of how needed this change is.

this statement is so true. its about who you are as a player not the quest mechanic.

FranOhmsford
07-09-2015, 05:49 PM
Did you read my post? There's a reason why this almost never happens, and its not an entirely rational reason. People feel they are losing their investment in guild B. Make a formal merger mechanism with some small renown transfer and you'll overcome some of that inertia. Rational Economic man doesn't play DDO much.

I will never leave my own Guild for someone else's because what happens if that someone else decides to boot me out of their Guild a week, a month or even a year later?

That's the reason I created my own Guild in the first place - So I have CONTROL!



Now a true Guild Merger system would allow for an extra guild rank - Founder - Which cannot be booted without a GM's say so.

Postumus
07-09-2015, 05:50 PM
This change will mean people will help group members less although some may group a little more there is no encouragment to help them since it wont matter if they die where as before people needed to help make sure the whole group survived if they wanted to keep the bonus.


No it doesn't. I don't think you give DDO players much credit by making that statement. Most of us are not selfish, self-centered misanthropes only looking out for our own benefit. We play with other people because we enjoy it. Helping your team succeed is part of that enjoyment.


The people who sweat the 10% bonus or don't like helping other players already sequester themselves and play solo or in small, tightly knit groups; which is why I don't think this change will encourage more LFMs because those people don't like grouping in the first place.

Hoglum
07-09-2015, 05:51 PM
You shouldn't need a 'bonus' to be a good teammate.

You shouldn't need an 'incentive' to buff and heal.




...and you shouldn't need an 'incentive' or a 'bonus' to group if that's how you like to play.

blerkington
07-09-2015, 05:57 PM
Hi,

It's too early to say what all the consequences will be, but right now these seem like good changes to me. Anything that reduces fragmentation of the community and encourages vets to run with newer people is a good thing, I think.

I don't buy the argument that the change to flawless will reduce teamwork. In those rare groups where people were being nasty about lost xp from deaths, the villains of the piece generally didn't seem to be doing much to prevent the deaths anyway.

Certainly a much better direction to take than creating additional difficulties which encourage different parts of the community to become even more isolated from each other.

If some unintended consequence does emerge which makes these changes seem like a mistake, then the changes can be reverted.

Thanks.

Krell
07-09-2015, 05:57 PM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

Nice changes.

1. What is the thought behind limiting the group bonuses to an event instead of full time?

2. Looking at methods to encourage grouping, any thought to having remnants drop in all epic quests regardless of player level (i.e. no 4 level restriction)?

3. Any progress on fixing the grouping panel without having to populate Who first?

Silverleafeon
07-09-2015, 05:58 PM
Well I would. I think most people would. That's why I think Uska may be re-thinking his previous post. Personally, I have met far fewer selfish players in DDO than helpful, team-oriented players.

True, someone just suprised me by mailing Fawn a raid timer as a TY for leading raids on Wednesday.


I like the idea of expanding Bonus Events, it makes for variety. Hopefully it will happen often enough to make a difference.

cdbd3rd
07-09-2015, 06:00 PM
.


...

now a real option would be change the channel for chatting. its crappy that the system is based on areas when we all know there is very few people in certain areas. it would be better if it was a global chat. such as level based 1-10 1-20 20+ etc.

When LOTRO did this, suddenly the childish immature chat we affectionately called "Bree chat" went global. It was abominable.

If there is to be a 'global' chat channel, hopefully keep it separate from the current localized chats so we only have to disable one channel to avoid the PvP rabble & such.

Silverleafeon
07-09-2015, 06:00 PM
1. What is the thought behind limiting the group bonuses to an event instead of full time?



That was the only thing that puzzled me, but I figured maybe its BIGger bonus instead of a little bonus?

Silverleafeon
07-09-2015, 06:02 PM
.



When LOTRO did this, suddenly the childish immature chat we affectionately called "Bree chat" went global. It was abominable.

If there is to be a 'global' chat channel, hopefully keep it separate from the current localized chats so we only have to disable one channel to avoid the PvP rabble & such.

First thing I do on a new noniconic toon is turn off General Chat so I don't have to hear the harbor rabble...

Algreg
07-09-2015, 06:02 PM
There is now zero insentive to do teamwork with non-guildies I will be much less likely to buff or heal any more and it will be the same across the board.

Behold, the champion of teamwork speaking...

Lonnbeimnech
07-09-2015, 06:04 PM
You shouldn't need a 'bonus' to be a good teammate.

You shouldn't need an 'incentive' to buff and heal.

Being in a group attempting to achieve a goal has the inherent responsibility that you will do what you need to do for the group.

I strongly disagree with your assessment that the change is 'dumb' and I certainly find nothing in your logic that supports keeping the status quo - in fact - if anything, it strengthens my view of how needed this change is.

But am I a good team mate for bringing enough deathward potions for the whole party?

Or are they good teammates for bringing their own pots?

Tscheuss
07-09-2015, 06:14 PM
Thx for the prompt reply! Note, though, that there are carrots vs sticks. The penalty was a stick to help fellow players and this proposal will remove it. Was just curious if there would be a carrot to aiding them.

In past threads on this topic, this was hotly debated. I anticipate that this theme will come up again.

The Flawless bonus was a carrot to encourage teamwork, but certain players began to view it as their due. It was the players that turned a bonus into a penalty and a carrot into a stick. Now the teamwork carrot is being demoted to an individual carrot, and the teamwork carrot is already being missed. lol

GroundhogDay
07-09-2015, 06:26 PM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

Now this is more like it, job well done.

Postumus
07-09-2015, 06:30 PM
But am I a good team mate for bringing enough deathward potions for the whole party?

Or are they good teammates for bringing their own pots?


False dichotomy.

Saekee
07-09-2015, 06:39 PM
The Flawless bonus was a carrot to encourage teamwork, but certain players began to view it as their due. It was the players that turned a bonus into a penalty and a carrot into a stick. Now the teamwork carrot is being demoted to an individual carrot, and the teamwork carrot is already being missed. lol
great response!

Nice changes.

1. What is the thought behind limiting the group bonuses to an event instead of full time?

I speculate that they will use this as a testing ground to see what happens. If it is not abused and has positive community effects, then it might occur more often or be made permanent.

/speculate off.

Ralmeth
07-09-2015, 06:44 PM
Awesome proposed changes! Looks good to me:)

UurlockYgmeov
07-09-2015, 06:50 PM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~


There are technical reasons for the bravery suppression to be tied to an NPC.

I brought up concerns with the team about convenience, and we are planning to also add the NPC to guild airships.

Sev~

Ideally he'd be standing top deck next to the buff device.

Sev~


http://i.imgur.com/7UFg7Qa.gif

^^^^ for that

Just two things: Kindly add two things to the Character Sheet: A Icon indicating the status of the 'pause/supressed' (Streak: On|OFF) and a tooltip showing the current streak. :D

Drevok
07-09-2015, 06:55 PM
~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.
~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

Well... it is better than currently... sort-of...

BUT Flawless should mean FLAWLESS. i.e. You and your group ensured that nobody died.

So I much prefer :
10% Flawless bonus. nobody dies! YAY!
5% Survivor bonus. i.e. somebody dies, but at least it ain't you! And yes, hirelings count!
0% you died...

Survivor bonus... well at least the darn noob that did die lost twice as much as you did!



~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.
... I brought up concerns with the team about convenience, and we are planning to also add the NPC to guild airships.

Great change given the constraints! (especially for NPC on airship)



~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.
~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

I like this solution better than mine! (which was a flat 5% bonus if have a minimum of 4 people in the party).

Catteras
07-09-2015, 07:03 PM
1. theres another nail towards less reasons for teamwork in a group.

The death penalty didn't promote teamwork either. It promoted solo'ing or only running with other elitists. This isn't teamwork. There is no teamwork if you're solo'ing or mad dashing through a quest and each zerger is killing his own cr ap (or invis-running).

This does promote grouping in many different ways, though.

Qhualor
07-09-2015, 07:15 PM
The death penalty didn't promote teamwork either. It promoted solo'ing or only running with other elitists. This isn't teamwork. There is no teamwork if you're solo'ing or mad dashing through a quest and each zerger is killing his own cr ap (or invis-running).

This does promote grouping in many different ways, though.

No, it didn't promote teamwork largely. It had a lot more meaning back when we had half as much xp as we can acquire now. What did promote teamwork was when the difficulties were better balanced toward character power. My reference to "another nail" meant one of the remaining reasons to promote teamwork will now be gone. All that is left is player attitude and how helpful they feel like being a team player. This change now will encourage BYOH DDO even more.

davmuzl
07-09-2015, 07:19 PM
I'm in the same boat with people who want an incentive to not let others die. It's not even only about healing others but it also means that playing taking aggro is a personal risk only. If someone dies because they were trying to help their party members they shouldn't be penalized.

The one thing I can actually get mad about is when people reenter the quest without mentioning. I've had this happen multiple times where people fall into the lava in von5 and release and reenter. It's completly unnecessary and means that everybody in the party gets 10% xp less.


Looking forward to bonus xp in raids. Hopefully this way people will actually run them at level.

BoBoDaClown
07-09-2015, 07:28 PM
I can't believe there are people who heal or buff based on 10% xp... bit sad really. To be fair, I never cared about people dying = -10% anyway, so I'm probably not the target audience for that change.


On the other ideas:

Really good. Obviously a toggle for bravery bonus would be better, but if that's too difficult to implement, makes sense what you are doing.

Not sure why you do the grouping bonus solely for bonus weekends - is it because you are trialing it to see the effect or you are worried about there already being too much xp in the game?

Trialing it definitely makes sense to me, and if it improves grouping I think the life it brings to the game would be more valuable than any cost regarding thoughts of there being too much xp.

Anyway, great ideas and great to see some moving forward.

Faltout
07-09-2015, 07:36 PM
~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.
Ok, so while the bonus is suppressed, you will not get a bonus.
The question is: When it is unsuppressed, are you able to get the bravery bonus for the quest you did earlier by doing it on elite this time?

I hope that you won't be able to get bravery bonus after doing it on lower difficulty.

And this is the really major change. Noone really cares about the 10% bonus. Do with it what you want.

Postumus
07-09-2015, 07:43 PM
My reference to "another nail" meant one of the remaining reasons to promote teamwork will now be gone. All that is left is player attitude and how helpful they feel like being a team player. This change now will encourage BYOH DDO even more.


No one in PUGs is going out of his/her way to keep others alive simply for the 10%. They do it or don't do it because that is how they are wired.


The 10% was only an excuse to be a jerk for players who already were jerks.





Noone really cares about the 10% bonus.


This. Ever since xp tomes, VIP xp bonus, lowering TR total xp, and bazillions of xp pots the +10% has been irrelevant.

Marten
07-09-2015, 07:47 PM
Ideally he'd be standing top deck next to the buff device.

Sev~

I applaud these group friendly moves. As to a streak person on the ship, why not add the option to the first mate that is already on the top deck. I thought that part of the point of the ship update was to clear the clutter from the top deck. I can't think of a ship where the first mate is not already close to the lever and frankly I don't want another unmovable Ogre or other vermin on my top deck :p

Honestly, I think that all Raids should be "streakless." Meaning by default they do not count for or against a streak. This would remove most, "wait for me, I have to hit the streak NPC." But as your current coming changes, this is very welcome.

Now, let us buy ship decks as an option to having to buy a whole new ship :p I like the look of my older ship, but would love to add 1 or 2 decks to it :)

arkonas
07-09-2015, 07:57 PM
.



When LOTRO did this, suddenly the childish immature chat we affectionately called "Bree chat" went global. It was abominable.

If there is to be a 'global' chat channel, hopefully keep it separate from the current localized chats so we only have to disable one channel to avoid the PvP rabble & such.

now i do hope you will have that option to turn it off. i would love to see the chat at least be like rifts where the higher level you were you could see all of the chats. if they did it level wise. i do turn off my chat as well sometimes because pvp usually brought drama/trolls in games. i've seen enough of that on argo. im fine not to see it constantly as well.

Frogger70
07-09-2015, 08:09 PM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

Sev~


Just to be clear, do I lose the Flawless bonus only if someone in my party dies and I also die or just if I die?

sirgog
07-09-2015, 08:14 PM
Firstly on the no deaths bonus. This is basically irrelevant when elite streaking. The difference between 320% of base XP and 330% is 3.125%.

But a lot of people don't understand it, and think it's the difference between 320% base and 1.1*320 = 352% base. Those people will feel better for the change; me, I will continue not caring.


This change misses the whole point of why grouping is unattractive in DDO, even to people like me that strongly prefer grouping, and that is dungeon scaling. Compared to solo, adding a random player results in mobs and traps doing ~40% more damage, having ~30% more HP, and having better saves. Assuming you are a solid player (i.e. capable of elite streak soloing to 16 or 17 at a decent pace), you need an above average player to make up for the additional difficulty.

If you really want to encourage grouping, remove scaling entirely, then adjust Casual difficulty to be the same as it would be now with only 1 player in the dungeon. Set Normal to be what it would be now with 1 player plus 1 hireling. Hard scale to 3 players, and Elite to 6. Then, if five people want to go and run Waterworks on Normal, let them just stomp it.

Before scaling, adding a known mediocre to bad player always made your group stronger (unless they were actually trolling or sabotaging the run). Post scaling, adding a known mediocre player is usually neutral at best, detrimental at worst.


A final point. Early in DDO voice chat was used in most groups. Now it isn't. Voice makes a huge difference in giving the tips needed to turn a mediocre player into a solid one.

Rhysem
07-09-2015, 08:14 PM
~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

Good. If they were any dumber, they'd be rocks. No, that's not fair to the rocks. The rocks in palace of stone are smarter than that.


~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

This is going to be heavily abused. Please think this through very carefully. Recruiting door pikers, or bringing in mule accounts that just sit idle, etc... It might sell TP to people who just load up 4-5 accounts of pikers to go with their main, but I'm not sure its worth it. It has "Asheron's Call XP Chain" written all over it, with all the negative connotations that conveys.

Livmo
07-09-2015, 08:17 PM
Just to be clear, do I lose the Flawless bonus only if someone in my party dies and I also die or just if I die?


~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

It says that you only loose the bonus if you die. If you don't die, then you don't loose the bonus. If you die, you then loose the bonus.

Qhualor
07-09-2015, 08:22 PM
No one in PUGs is going out of his/her way to keep others alive simply for the 10%. They do it or don't do it because that is how they are wired.

The last time I can remember a group of any kind going out of their way to protect the Flawless Bonus was about 4 years ago. Apparently there are a lot more "jerks" that prefer protecting their Flawless Bonus by soloing? I don't doubt there are some, but many players don't solo or stick to like minded players to group with so they can all but guarantee they keep their 10% of the base xp.

LeoLionxxx
07-09-2015, 08:36 PM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.


As some others have pointed out, this is less of an incentive to help other players by throwing them a heal or disabling the trap, but yes, it can act as a disincentive like you say.
I suggest you split the difference:
~10% flawless bonus at the start.
~Decreased to 5% survival bonus if someone dies.
~Your bonus is decreased to 0% if YOU die.



~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.


Huzza!



~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.


It's nice that steps are being taken to address this. However, I don't' think this is the way to go on this. I can imagine now: people forgetting to deactivate or reactivate it and complaining. As well, it sort of ruins the theme of the Bravery Streak: "I'm so awesome, I play everything on Elite", since this means it can be toggled on and off whenever we like.

Honestly, I'd like to see it just plain eliminated, perhaps depreciated out over a period of time while it's replaced with something like boosted hard/elite XP or a permanent grouping bonus.
I'm also not a big fan of the "bravery bonus" either, since it too promotes the Elitest atmosphere.




We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.


These look nice; the 2nd one will add incentive to run more raids*. I'm hoping this is part of a testing process to determine if permanent bonuses like these would be a boon on the game as a whole!

Overall, I love that you guys are taking time to make these types of changes :)


*random idea: Weekly featured raids where the XP is boosed and/or named loot drops at a higher rate. Just a thought to boost the popularity of some raids.

Faltout
07-09-2015, 09:15 PM
It says that you only loose the bonus if you don't die. If you don't die, then you don't loose the bonus.;) :rolleyes:

Uska
07-09-2015, 09:25 PM
Firstly on the no deaths bonus. This is basically irrelevant when elite streaking. The difference between 320% of base XP and 330% is 3.125%.

But a lot of people don't understand it, and think it's the difference between 320% base and 1.1*320 = 352% base. Those people will feel better for the change; me, I will continue not caring.


This change misses the whole point of why grouping is unattractive in DDO, even to people like me that strongly prefer grouping, and that is dungeon scaling. Compared to solo, adding a random player results in mobs and traps doing ~40% more damage, having ~30% more HP, and having better saves. Assuming you are a solid player (i.e. capable of elite streak soloing to 16 or 17 at a decent pace), you need an above average player to make up for the additional difficulty.

If you really want to encourage grouping, remove scaling entirely, then adjust Casual difficulty to be the same as it would be now with only 1 player in the dungeon. Set Normal to be what it would be now with 1 player plus 1 hireling. Hard scale to 3 players, and Elite to 6. Then, if five people want to go and run Waterworks on Normal, let them just stomp it.

Before scaling, adding a known mediocre to bad player always made your group stronger (unless they were actually trolling or sabotaging the run). Post scaling, adding a known mediocre player is usually neutral at best, detrimental at worst.


A final point. Early in DDO voice chat was used in most groups. Now it isn't. Voice makes a huge difference in giving the tips needed to turn a mediocre player into a solid one.

I agree with you on scaling it should be harder for 1 person to do a dungeon not easier they should reverse scaling if anything

Uska
07-09-2015, 09:27 PM
Tell me, if Fawn used her Jibber's Blade, killed the end boss of a raid, then cast your toon rez scroll before expiring a necrotic death, would you bother to "waste" a raise dead scroll so she could loot her raid chest?

Hmmm?


And yes folks Fawn has Jibbered for the win before in a raid.


Never mind, most raids has Rez shrines appearing, maybe for that reason after then ending.
Something to keep in mind for the future Devs.

I dont carry rez scrolls but I would haul him/her to a shrine if possible

Uska
07-09-2015, 09:28 PM
i think this will effect the people who do help others because they're friendlier and they have that rule of no one left behind. the only people who wont be effected are those that cared if you died. now they might let you in but ignore you. that is more of a personal behavior thing then anything else.




maybe. reason i say this is look at some of the other games that people said would have died but haven't like ultima online and everquest. they keep adapting and adding new changes to keep the game alive. it could end like Heroes. lol we all know cryptic.

I never have cared about losing the bonus for people dying its a minute bonus

Uska
07-09-2015, 09:29 PM
You shouldn't need a 'bonus' to be a good teammate.

You shouldn't need an 'incentive' to buff and heal.

Being in a group attempting to achieve a goal has the inherent responsibility that you will do what you need to do for the group.

I strongly disagree with your assessment that the change is 'dumb' and I certainly find nothing in your logic that supports keeping the status quo - in fact - if anything, it strengthens my view of how needed this change is.

Its dumb just like scaling, hirelings and other recent changes

Uska
07-09-2015, 09:29 PM
So this 'suppression', is it going to be

1. talk to the guy and the next quest has no BB
2. talk to the guy and for the next hour there is no BB
3. or is it a toggle, BB is suppressed until you return to him and turn it back on?

Good question

Uska
07-09-2015, 09:30 PM
if you are expecting to see anything more than a slight increase in lfm/grouping activity over these changes or see an increase in team play, than im sorry to say in my opinion you will be wrong. I am marking my words on this and I don't do this hardly ever unless I feel very strongly about something, but I do hope you are right and I am wrong. I seriously want to be wrong on this, but I see daily how DDO is played and the attitude overall players have. this is a huge benefit for the zergers, casuals and those that have always looked at losing the miniscule Flawless Bonus as a penalty. you are right that this is not the silver bullet and the devs have said the proper way to address the actual problem is too big of a project, but what this is is band aid fix.

I predict that it might increase grouping very slightly

Tscheuss
07-09-2015, 09:48 PM
I agree with you on scaling it should be harder for 1 person to do a dungeon not easier they should reverse scaling if anything

Then they would also need to provide more xp to smaller/solo parties to balance. Better to leave scaling as it is. :)

Nachomammashouse
07-09-2015, 10:06 PM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

woot! :)

Silverleafeon
07-09-2015, 10:09 PM
Good. If they were any dumber, they'd be rocks. No, that's not fair to the rocks. The rocks in palace of stone are smarter than that.

Lol...




This is going to be heavily abused. Please think this through very carefully. Recruiting door pikers, or bringing in mule accounts that just sit idle, etc... It might sell TP to people who just load up 4-5 accounts of pikers to go with their main, but I'm not sure its worth it. It has "Asheron's Call XP Chain" written all over it, with all the negative connotations that conveys.

Perhaps that is the thought behind temp bonuses days, hard to load up on it continually and its competing with +10~25% heroic/epic xp days?

Good way to promote raiding (as one of the "better raiding would be caused by better xp" theories)?

Also they can adjust on the fly?

For example, they can go with +X% one week, then +4X% another and since its all "bonus days", who is too complain?

illuminar
07-09-2015, 10:14 PM
I see your attempt at fixing xp and raise you...

Incentives for Grouping
Teamwork Bonus +2% bonus for each party member after first that is alive at quest completion.
Survival Bonus: +2% bonus for each party member after first that doesn't die.
Small enough that if one dies nobody is getting bent out of shape, but cumulative to a point that a zerger may not want to completely leave the whole party behind to die.

Special Events
Keep, but just make them double the "standard" bonuses above.

Incentives for Solo Play
+0% bonus to xp, but you can ghost, give up, reenter or zerg all without concern for others. Solo play needs to be viable, it doesn't need to have maximize xp.

Bravery Bonus
I'm not sure how I feel about this, other than turning it off should also turn off first time bonuses. I presume that's what was intended by "associated bonuses", but it wasn't completely clear. If it doesn't there's no risk or reward choice to make and so it instead feels like an exploit. One idea may be to make it changeable once per day. But I saw that as a thought experiment and not because I'm sure it's better in any way.

Add a Variety Bonus to the daily play through bonus
Potential Daily Play through bonus levels

Hero: +10% for daily play through
Adventurer: +20% for daily play through for completing rare quests (say the *least 20% completed quest at that level on the server).
Explorer: +30% for daily play through for completing very rare quests (say the *least 10% completed quest at that level on the server).

*calculate weekly if there is the potential for performance hits.

Memnir
07-09-2015, 10:20 PM
Sev,


I didn't say so before... this news came as a very pleasant surprise to me, and I forgot to elaborate before...


But, from the bottom of my heart - thank you. Thank you for listening to the community, and taking steps to improve the game based on what we have to say. It may seem like a little thing, but it is anything but. It's huge, and this post has done more to restore my faith in the Dev team then any other news in years. We spoke, and you not only listened - you acted. I'm just sorry I was late in expressing this.


Thank you.


http://i.imgur.com/i8bkZG7.gif

Livmo
07-09-2015, 10:30 PM
;) :rolleyes:

Thanks! That was a brain twizzler for me. I even said it out loud and still typed it wrong (_8(l) DoH!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RejrrkrRShM

EDIT ~ fixed it.

Seikojin
07-09-2015, 10:35 PM
So this 'suppression', is it going to be

1. talk to the guy and the next quest has no BB
2. talk to the guy and for the next hour there is no BB
3. or is it a toggle, BB is suppressed until you return to him and turn it back on?

#3.

I love the changes. Like a few have stated, won't change a soloers experience at all simply because they will get the same exp as always. It will definitely encourage more grouping because there are more basic incentives to group and less penalties for doing so.

BoBoDaClown
07-09-2015, 10:36 PM
This is going to be heavily abused. Please think this through very carefully. Recruiting door pikers, or bringing in mule accounts that just sit idle, etc... It might sell TP to people who just load up 4-5 accounts of pikers to go with their main, but I'm not sure its worth it. It has "Asheron's Call XP Chain" written all over it, with all the negative connotations that conveys.

I'm not sure this matters. Considering someone can spend money to buy an ottos; if people want to circumvent/spend up leveling in these new, potentially less dramatic ways, it probably won't have a massive effect on the game.

I'm hoping this will make a difference to pugland; I think it will, particularly on those weekends. We shall see.

Robai
07-09-2015, 10:38 PM
~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.
This is a good change!


~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.
This is a bonus to those who solo (= not good).
IMO deaths of hirelings should reduce xp to the ones who summoned them.



~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

I think this will cause more problems than solve any. Sorry, this is a waste of Devs time.



We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.
Why events? IMO there should be should be a permanent bonus.


Personally I would have preferred to see this bonus go away all together and replaced with "Everyone Alive and at the 'End' of the Quest" on completion bonus. It would make it so that it is better if you make sure everyone can make it to the end instead of leaving people behind.
End of the Quest part would discourage grouping (don't think anyone would like to wait for others, especially those who forgot striding item or had to go afk for 1 min).

I think it would be better to remove the bonus of "no deaths" for good and replace it with grouping bonus.

Draculetta
07-09-2015, 11:03 PM
When will these changes go into effect?

Postumus
07-09-2015, 11:22 PM
I dont carry rez scrolls but I would haul him/her to a shrine if possible

Why would you do that but not heal someone?

IronClan
07-09-2015, 11:25 PM
~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

Sev why not just increment the BB to 5, cap it there then when "broken" you only lose 1 of the 5? Decrementing the streak by one has been suggested over and over by the players as a great way to mitigate the rigid streak mechanic and make them less binary.

This is a clunky extra hoop to jump through. It's better than nothing but it will be underutilized.

HatsuharuZ
07-09-2015, 11:31 PM
Sev why not just increment the BB to 5, cap it there then when "broken" you only lose 1 of the 5? Decrementing the streak by one has been suggested over and over by the players as a great way to mitigate the rigid streak mechanic and make them less binary.

This is a clunky extra hoop to jump through. It's better than nothing but it will be underutilized.

Your idea would be abused horribly, sorry. By level 8 my own streak is at 82, so I won't notice any loss of exp for quite a few quests.

IronClan
07-09-2015, 11:48 PM
There is now zero insentive to do teamwork with non-guildies I will be much less likely to buff or heal any more and it will be the same across the board. All they are doing is giving more and more incentive to look for a replacement but I dont think there is a MMO but lucky there is roll20

Wow you only buff or heal because of the 750 xp you might lose out on if they died? LOL...

IronClan
07-09-2015, 11:50 PM
Your idea would be abused horribly, sorry. By level 8 my own streak is at 82, so I won't notice any loss of exp for quite a few quests.

you missed the part where I (and many others who have suggested the same idea) said cap BB at 5... Having the number be 82 versus 5 makes no difference.

The "collecting meaningless numbers" aspect of BB is actually one of it's biggest problems... people actually think they're losing something when they break a 1125 in a row Elite streak...

Optionally they could keep track of your Streak separately (like on your bio page) for those who enjoy collecting meaningless numbers, and make the BB increment to 5 and decrement by 1 when "broken" people would break their streak occasionally (AKA lose the full stacked BB bonus for 1 quest and get it back in the next quest)... And no hoops to jump through.

IronClan
07-10-2015, 12:07 AM
nm now I'm just ranting.

Daine
07-10-2015, 12:18 AM
Wow, great ideas, happy to see them all implemented!

Pseudograph
07-10-2015, 12:25 AM
Players:

1. Has so much knowledge/experience/gear/plat/TP/favor/past lives and just plain LEET UBERNESS!!!!(Attitude) that he doesn't feel any incentive to group with anyone who doesn't offer some BIG advantage to his group. "I don't need anybody! Don't you dare slow me down!"---(WON'T HELP)

2. Very experienced, well equipped/funded/organized/efficient willing to include anyone who doesn't cause a complete failure. ---(might help)

3. Reasonably experienced with above average gear and resources(minor "farming/grind", maybe few or no past lives). He knows he still has work ahead of him but has built something of consequence. "Working with others is probably still a good idea"---(will help)

4. Heroic experience through upper/mid levels with some good/named gear and an "OK" understanding of feats/skills/enhancements. "I'm a team player if you are" ---(appreciates help and will help)

5. Has almost half of the adventure packs and considerable enthusiasm for anyone who will "offer a pass" or an elite opener. Beginning to love the game - but still unaware of a ton of things the "old timers" know.----(needs some help and will help as much as can)

6. "My buddy and I just started playing, but he can't play this weekend. Can I run with you guys?" ----(needs help for sure)

You can only take 5. You're the leader. Who do you choose?

p.s. Hirelings are still an option I suppose.

Pseudograph

p.s. I think the general idea behind these changes is pretty good. Implementation/application is always the tricky bit.

Postumus
07-10-2015, 01:14 AM
Wow you only buff or heal because of the 750 xp you might lose out on if they died? LOL...


Exactly.

Postumus
07-10-2015, 01:17 AM
Your idea would be abused horribly, sorry. By level 8 my own streak is at 82, so I won't notice any loss of exp for quite a few quests.


In think he meansyour streak, in effect, caps at 5; so if you run 500 quests on elite, then two on hard, you would need to run the next two quest on elite to get the full elite quest bonus again.

Nascoe
07-10-2015, 02:06 AM
But am I a good team mate for bringing enough deathward potions for the whole party?

Or are they good teammates for bringing their own pots?

Both of you are good teammates. You for thinking about the others maybe not having them, and they for being considerate enough not to count on you to always supply them!

Jiirix
07-10-2015, 02:46 AM
Thumbs up, all this sounds great to encourage grouping :) Now please travel back in time and implement it with modul 2.

Aurora999
07-10-2015, 02:56 AM
Firstly on the no deaths bonus. This is basically irrelevant when elite streaking. The difference between 320% of base XP and 330% is 3.125%.

But a lot of people don't understand it, and think it's the difference between 320% base and 1.1*320 = 352% base. Those people will feel better for the change; me, I will continue not caring.


This change misses the whole point of why grouping is unattractive in DDO, even to people like me that strongly prefer grouping, and that is dungeon scaling. Compared to solo, adding a random player results in mobs and traps doing ~40% more damage, having ~30% more HP, and having better saves. Assuming you are a solid player (i.e. capable of elite streak soloing to 16 or 17 at a decent pace), you need an above average player to make up for the additional difficulty.

If you really want to encourage grouping, remove scaling entirely, then adjust Casual difficulty to be the same as it would be now with only 1 player in the dungeon. Set Normal to be what it would be now with 1 player plus 1 hireling. Hard scale to 3 players, and Elite to 6. Then, if five people want to go and run Waterworks on Normal, let them just stomp it.

Before scaling, adding a known mediocre to bad player always made your group stronger (unless they were actually trolling or sabotaging the run). Post scaling, adding a known mediocre player is usually neutral at best, detrimental at worst.


A final point. Early in DDO voice chat was used in most groups. Now it isn't. Voice makes a huge difference in giving the tips needed to turn a mediocre player into a solid one.

Pretty much all of the above with the figures maybe adjusted a little bit more for scaling. 1/2/3/4 or 2/2/3/3 :) I think sounds a bit better but this will be trial and error to achieve the best balance between group and solo play.

As far as personal experience goes, I've only met a single player (post-BB) that got mad at loosing the minute xp from a party death. Nobody else cared enough to even mention it besides the sometimes "Ding" or other silly remarks being shown in chat accompanied by general laughter at the way somebody died. An interesting alternative would be the previously mentioned:

Flawless = 10% - No party deaths
Survivor = 5% - Somebody else dying
0% - You dying

Maybe just flesh it out a bit more but will still only affect those players who don't understand the mechanic or those that have to take one for the team.

Removal of the BB system entirely is still the best choice in my opinion or as somebody else mentioned, cap it at 5 and decrement by 1 instead of a restart as any number above 5 serves no purpose at all besides make people have an inflated ego boost.

The suppression of BB can go in multiple ways. Running to an NPC to stop/start your BB will present future problems for those who forget and it will be a pesky annoyance having to run around to do more stuff before/during chain questing where speed can be somewhat of an issue. Ghosts of Perdition comes to mind for Elite Streaks coupled with chaining and all the gather mechanics of the quest itself. Also with the current tier of difficulty and game "balance", running elite is not an obstacle a lot of players cannot tackle efficiently so much as scaling is. Those who lack having a lot of packs and struggle reaching level 20/28 due to missing a large number of packs will continue using Elite BB as its their only way to reach those levels in a timely period without having to wait a week for ransack timers to expire and farming the exact same 2-3 quests over the course of that week.

Only good part of BB suppression is being able to freeze progress for raids or in progress groups that do not want to repeat elite (not an actual issue as elite does offer higher base xp than hard/normal).

@sirgog: I think the use of voice chat has diminished as the semi broken quality of the sound being transmitted makes some people even less understandable then they already are with either heavy accents, poorly optimised settings, bad quality microphones or people who disable microphone sound from the in-game settings. More commonly used these days that I have noticed is using third party VoIP like TS, Skype or Mumble as their quality is much better and allow for more control over optimisation. I won't deny its in-game purposes during messy scenario's or explanations.

Robbenklopper
07-10-2015, 03:07 AM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

Full Respect for this Severlin! Double thumbs up!

Eth
07-10-2015, 03:19 AM
There is now zero insentive to do teamwork with non-guildies I will be much less likely to buff or heal any more and it will be the same across the board. All they are doing is giving more and more incentive to look for a replacement but I dont think there is a MMO but lucky there is roll20

lol

You have a weird understanding of teamwork, if teamwork for you is helping others only in order to save "your" XP.

Flavilandile
07-10-2015, 03:40 AM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

Good to see that something is going on on that topic.... Though, it's not enough and it's quite late.

Ok, the no death bonus removal is a good thing. But the rest are just workarounds.

While the mechanisms called Bravery Bonus, Dungeon Scaling and Dungeon Aletr had a meaning when they were put in place, nowadays they are damaging the game and need to be killed.

- Scaling should go back to what it originally was : One size fit them all, aka full party ( 4 or more ) scaling. If people want to solo, fine, they can use the Casual ( former Solo ) difficulty or they can try to challenge quests on normal/hard/elite. That should bring back braggings about being able to solo this quest or that quest on normal/hard/elite. ( and maybe some people for the challenge )

- Alert should be killed and remade in such a way that it doesn't trigger uselessly because people are doing the quests the intended way.

- Bravery bonus should also be killed and a mechanism that encourage grouping, that is XP neutral and that push players towards challenging quest difficulties ( or quest levels ) should be put in place.

Beethoven
07-10-2015, 04:38 AM
All the changes sound awesome to me, shy one which I think could be improved:


~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

I think a much better change would have been to make it cummulative by giving giving each player 10% for making it through without dying plus an another 5% for each additional player in the group that survived without dieing.

So, in other words:

The maximum possible flawless victory bonus someone can get when solo'ing a dungeon is 10% as there are no additional players.

However, a group of four where one character dies but three make it through without death would award flawless victory as below:
* 20% to the players that did not die (10% for not dying themselves and 5% for each of the other two that made it through with no deaths)
* 10% to the player that did die (no bonus because they did die, but still 5% for each of the two that didn't).

A full group with no deaths would give up to 35% and a full raid group up to 65%.


The advantages I could see with that are:
* it makes the bonus more meaningful, likely causing more people to actually care about it and thus promote grouping
* it gives a (in my opinion much needed) XP boosts to raids
* it does not make it feel somebody else takes away the individual player's bonus, but other players have the potential to add to it.

davmuzl
07-10-2015, 04:40 AM
Sev why not just increment the BB to 5, cap it there then when "broken" you only lose 1 of the 5? Decrementing the streak by one has been suggested over and over by the players as a great way to mitigate the rigid streak mechanic and make them less binary.

This is a clunky extra hoop to jump through. It's better than nothing but it will be underutilized.

I like this one much more than having to run to an NPC even if there is one of the guildships aswell. Imagine joining a gh group where most players have done a quest already but are willing to repeat it on hard. I would rather reduce my streak bonus to 4 than have to go somewhere else before.
It would also keep a bit of the idea of rewarding players for running the highest difficulty all the time. Calling it a streak when you can turn it off whenever you want wouldn't make sense.

EllisDee37
07-10-2015, 05:15 AM
Severlin, the changes in the OP are good but they're the wrong direction. Bravery is overly complicated and creates sociological issues where there don't need to be any. There are two alternate solutions that are much cleaner:

1) Cap and Descend
As IronClan already outlined: Streak caps at 5, "breaking" streak decrements it instead of erasing it. This is a better solution than the OP, but still sub-optimal, IMO.

2) First Run bonus
Remove the bravery bonus entirely, and add a "First Run" bonus that all players always get the first time they run a quest. This First Run bonus doubles your difficulty-based First Time bonus. At the same time, drop the first time elite bonus from 80% to 75%. The numbers work out essentially the same for hard and elite streaking, plus normal gets a mild bump.

The First Run bonus is far superior to any workaround for streak, whether it's suppression or capping. You get the same equivalent xp as bravery gives but there's no complicated explanation required (look at all that text in the xp report explaining bravery!) and more relevant, there's no psychological pressure to avoid grouping due to losing out on streak bonus.

knockcocker
07-10-2015, 05:28 AM
False dichotomy.


Just waiting for Chai to come along and point out that it's not a false dichotomy because it wasn't
explicitly stated that they were the only two options... :)

patang01
07-10-2015, 05:29 AM
Likewise, the "grouping bonus" will simply become a "soloing penalty".

Unlikely

The Flawless bonus existed whether you soloed or grouped, but was particularly punishing while grouping (or using hirelings) since you lost it if anyone died. A grouping bonus is something you only get for grouping.

Personally I think this is the right thing to do - there should be an exclusive bonus for grouping, not a penalty if you fail to group (meaning one person in the group dies).

My argument has always been in all these discussions that grouping should be rewarded in addition to all regular xp. I solo for most parts since I have limited time to play and less dead time standing around waiting for groups to form, but at the same time have no problem grouping when possible since it greatly lessen run time.

Thalmor
07-10-2015, 06:00 AM
This is a good change!

Why events? IMO there should be should be a permanent bonus.




I'm no expert, but they can probably track it through a few events and see if it actually makes a difference in grouping and if it does then they can make it a permanent (Hopefully).

Saekee
07-10-2015, 06:18 AM
Firstly on the no deaths bonus. This is basically irrelevant when elite streaking. The difference between 320% of base XP and 330% is 3.125%.

But a lot of people don't understand it, and think it's the difference between 320% base and 1.1*320 = 352% base. Those people will feel better for the change; me, I will continue not caring.


This change misses the whole point of why grouping is unattractive in DDO, even to people like me that strongly prefer grouping, and that is dungeon scaling. Compared to solo, adding a random player results in mobs and traps doing ~40% more damage, having ~30% more HP, and having better saves. Assuming you are a solid player (i.e. capable of elite streak soloing to 16 or 17 at a decent pace), you need an above average player to make up for the additional difficulty.

If you really want to encourage grouping, remove scaling entirely, then adjust Casual difficulty to be the same as it would be now with only 1 player in the dungeon. Set Normal to be what it would be now with 1 player plus 1 hireling. Hard scale to 3 players, and Elite to 6. Then, if five people want to go and run Waterworks on Normal, let them just stomp it.

Before scaling, adding a known mediocre to bad player always made your group stronger (unless they were actually trolling or sabotaging the run). Post scaling, adding a known mediocre player is usually neutral at best, detrimental at worst.


A final point. Early in DDO voice chat was used in most groups. Now it isn't. Voice makes a huge difference in giving the tips needed to turn a mediocre player into a solid one.

+1

Fedora1
07-10-2015, 06:54 AM
I think these changes are okay and might help with lfm's.

However, I will say that it won't cover a lot of reasons people solo.

1. Limited time. The last few days I have logged on and looked for lfm's running content at my level. I'll kill a few minutes browsing the AH waiting and finally decide to put my own up. I'll wait another few minutes and start the quest. End up running the whole quest with no joiners.

2. Quests already in progress. I might see an lfm up for a quest I want to run, but it's already 5-10 minutes in progress. I know that for many quests by the time I hit the lfm, hop on the ship to get to the quest area (let's say GH or Amrath or 3BC or Vale or Orchard) and run through the wilderness to the quest entry, if the quest isn't already over it will be so close that I end up taking a 75% xp penalty.

3. Even when grouping (in PUGs) it is more like 4-6 people soloing through a quest. There is no teamwork (many times because no teamwork is really needed), little to zero conversation (voice or text) and it's basically a race from the entry to the end boss/chest then a quick "ty all for the party" as everyone exits and leaves the party. The only advantage is a quick completion, but it was much less fun or immersive and felt more like an arcade game that an old PnP game.

I don't have any answers for the above, except perhaps a big marketing campaign to double or triple the number of players in the game, or (as I have done several times in the past) starting a static group. The only problem with a static group tends to be scheduling conflicts among the members.

Kwyjibo
07-10-2015, 07:00 AM
It's a rarity that I will read an entire thread, well a thread greater than just a few pages, and then comment...but it seems to me that this is a wasted effort.

Generally, people that want to PuG and help others and enjoy the teamwork aspect of the game, will continue to do so, regardless of any xp bonus.
Generally, people that don't want to PuG and enjoy the company of only themselves or a few friends, will continue to do so, regardless of any xp bonus.

Until DA and DS are removed and/or reworked, I'm not convinced that any bonus xp for grouping will encourage those folks that already don't group, to do so.

None of these changes will affect me or those I run with.

MorteCerta
07-10-2015, 07:00 AM
Im glad to see this changes, not only will encourage groups but it will also make the game more friendly for new player.

davmuzl
07-10-2015, 07:11 AM
Making the flawless victory a personal thing also means that people who run past everything leaving the mobs for the rest of the group don't get punished when they cause DA.

The thing is that people don't care so much about others ruining their flawless victory. The problem with pugs is that half the time it's one person carrying the rest. And at that point the person doing all the work might aswell run alone, because of the dungeon scaling.

JOTMON
07-10-2015, 07:47 AM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

~good to see

~meh.. henchmen should be the responsibility of the person who summoned them.. don't like it.. invite a real person...

~meh.. there are sometimes issues with Bravery Bonus so I can see it for that aspect.. but isn't the point of Bravery Bonus to stay Elite and not run other stuff until you have at least run it elite once before...

~Full party bonus.. would like to see this full time not just for "special" events...

~Raid Bonus.. meh.. who cares.. raids are supposed to be about challenge and named loot not xp running.. players should already be in their best destiny and appropriate level..especially endgame raids.. (Von5 excluded .. that is definitely an XP pre-raid)..


Something I still want to see changed..
~Dungeon Scaling.. remove this at least from Elite.


Making the flawless victory a personal thing also means that people who run past everything leaving the mobs for the rest of the group don't get punished when they cause DA.

The thing is that people don't care so much about others ruining their flawless victory. The problem with pugs is that half the time it's one person carrying the rest. And at that point the person doing all the work might aswell run alone, because of the dungeon scaling.

Something like bravery bonus.. Flawless deaths bonus streak... Personal based .. the more quests you run without dying the better the bonus.. could be fun.. wouldn't do me much good.. I tend to be reckless and die regularly... but I could see some merit to it..

Anaximandroz
07-10-2015, 08:10 AM
Playing for a year or so the reason i don't play much in group is only one: AVOID ZERGS. I don't understand the idea of play a game for fun in the minimal possible. But i still start and join pugs if i'm in the mood to run. The ideas are good, except for personal death penalty; i can see a group looking to each other to see who will open a trapped door.

niehues
07-10-2015, 08:13 AM
There are technical reasons for the bravery suppression to be tied to an NPC.

I brought up concerns with the team about convenience, and we are planning to also add the NPC to guild airships.

Sev~

Please if u do so.. Add it on the top deck... the top deck after the airship pass feels so empty now...

It would be awesome to have a tavern, mail bank on the top deck like it was possible b4...

BTW i like all the changes to the XP and death.. I never care abt ppl die but I know a lot of ppl do..

cupajoe
07-10-2015, 08:21 AM
Playing for a year or so the reason i don't play much in group is only one: AVOID ZERGS. I don't understand the idea of play a game for fun in the minimal possible. But i still start and join pugs if i'm in the mood to run. The ideas are good, except for personal death penalty; i can see a group looking to each other to see who will open a trapped door.

I can see a new game when playing with guildies and friends. Let's see who can kill the other guy! I play mostly rogues...what's that you need a heal...oh and I hit diplo....sorry (not)! Or dang I didn't mean to hit grease! So many possibilities! Remember it's all fun and games until you lose YOUR bonus!

Seriously, I think these changes are fine. I also think that people will do what they will do. As others have said people who want to group will and those that don't, won't. People who help and contribute will continue to do so. People who are less helpful will continue to be less helpful. These changes aren't enough to change how I play this game and I think this is true for most players.

Anaximandroz
07-10-2015, 08:33 AM
And if we are talking about bonus changes i would like too the optionals give less %basexp but they stack so exploring all the dungeon will (probably, math to be done) be worth also in productivity. Something like: (((basexp+10% conquest)+10% ingenuous debilitation)+10%vandal) +10% optional objective, and so on.

davmuzl
07-10-2015, 08:37 AM
~Raid Bonus.. meh.. who cares.. raids are supposed to be about challenge and named loot not xp running.. players should already be in their best destiny and appropriate level..especially endgame raids.. (Von5 excluded .. that is definitely an XP pre-raid)..

The game makes people expect bad xp and good loot out of raids. If every raid was like von5 this would be different. There are only 3-5 raids where I expect people to come in their best destiny and even in those only on ee.


Something like bravery bonus.. Flawless deaths bonus streak... Personal based .. the more quests you run without dying the better the bonus.. could be fun.. wouldn't do me much good.. I tend to be reckless and die regularly... but I could see some merit to it..

I honestly think that bravery bonus and streak are good. They reward players for the additional challenge. Remember how it was before or look at what happens when there is no streak bonus. People run normal even if they could easily complete elite because it's more efficient. It's just that the game is easy enough for someone who trs regulary (which is pretty much the only thing you can do in this game once you are at the cap).


To make people group the game needs to be hard enough to where the challenge is notable and the scaling has to make it harder for a single person to complete the quest.

knockcocker
07-10-2015, 08:40 AM
severlin, the changes in the op are good but they're the wrong direction. Bravery is overly complicated and creates sociological issues where there don't need to be any. There are two alternate solutions that are much cleaner:

1) cap and descend
as ironclan already outlined: Streak caps at 5, "breaking" streak decrements it instead of erasing it. This is a better solution than the op, but still sub-optimal, imo.

2) first run bonus
remove the bravery bonus entirely, and add a "first run" bonus that all players always get the first time they run a quest. This first run bonus doubles your difficulty-based first time bonus. At the same time, drop the first time elite bonus from 80% to 75%. The numbers work out essentially the same for hard and elite streaking, plus normal gets a mild bump.

The first run bonus is far superior to any workaround for streak, whether it's suppression or capping. You get the same equivalent xp as bravery gives but there's no complicated explanation required (look at all that text in the xp report explaining bravery!) and more relevant, there's no psychological pressure to avoid grouping due to losing out on streak bonus.

+1

kiss

noble_pirate
07-10-2015, 09:05 AM
still way to go to return TEAMPLAY into game... (especially when devs missed that possibility by giving selfheal to barbarians - that was closest and most real opportunity to make healers back in parties)

FranOhmsford
07-10-2015, 09:14 AM
I honestly think that bravery bonus and streak are good. They reward players for the additional challenge. Remember how it was before or look at what happens when there is no streak bonus. People run normal even if they could easily complete elite because it's more efficient. It's just that the game is easy enough for someone who trs regulary (which is pretty much the only thing you can do in this game once you are at the cap).

Excuse me but why should we be forced to run Elite?

Back in the day people when E/H/N/N/N to infinity on certain quests because it was FASTER!

These days they run EN instead of EH or EE again because it's FASTER!

There's nothing the Devs can do to make N or EN slower than H/E or EH/EE and frankly the xp differential between N and E on the same quest is already massive so anymore would be over-kill!


To make people group the game needs to be hard enough to where the challenge is notable and the scaling has to make it harder for a single person to complete the quest.

And how exactly is this going to make more people run Elite?

The above two quotes are complete opposites!

You can't have Elite be both hard enough to make people group AND have more people running Elite than N/H - It just doesn't work like that!

Impaqt
07-10-2015, 09:16 AM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

About time. The flaws in the original concept with apparent from day one. It will be good to stop hearing people complain about losing the 10p. And while this doesnt "encourage" grouping, it doesnt Discourage it to some folks like before. TY!



~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

TY. They NEVER should have in the first place. They have never been very good at self preservation.




~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

well... This is something I guess.... I'm not sure its going to make a big difference in groups though.

I still stink a Dynamic BB system with a hard cap is the way to go...
Simply get rid of the "My number is bigger than yours" aspect of the system.



We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

This could be interesting. We
we'll see. Id rather see something permanent to encourage grouping though. You could always give folks a "Solo" completion bonus to make up for some of the difference in incentivizing the group.

Blackheartox
07-10-2015, 09:19 AM
Good changed, wondering why it wasn't like that since start.
Outside of possible abuse during events via boxing i see nothing negative in this whole proposal and that really would not be abuse but people paying more money to get more content on multiple accounts.
Actually could be really nice income for you guys

Xionanx
07-10-2015, 09:29 AM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

Glad to see XP is being looked at, but I fear that unless the party bonus is significant it simply wont be enough to encourage all the "private party only secret channel groups" to actually open up and start letting new people play with them.

I would love to see 10% extra per person beyond first.. now, "Elite BB" isn't the ONLY way to get a 50% bonus.

I think it might also be helpful to implement some kind of "noob bonus", where.. if you group with someone who is "New" to the game.. IE, an account less then 30 days old, that the NEW PLAYER can "Rate" how helpful the team was at the end of a quest. They get a little pop up after the quest completes, and they can rate each party member on a scale of 0 to 5 on how helpful that person was to them. Then.. after 24hrs the HELPFUL players receive XP "Stones" in the mail valued at 0-5 x 100xp (amount shown as example) for taking the time to help a new player out. (or some other reward).

I also wouldn't mind an "XP Sink" placed in the hall of heros that lets me convert 1PP to 1XP.. just saying. (lets get rid of all the PP on the servers overnight)

As far as the Bravery Bonus repression goes.. I personally think BB needs to be scrapped entirely. There is a fairly long thread going on right now about the lack of grouping and much debate has been had there, but a finger keeps getting pointed at BB for ruining grouping, and I tend to agree.

I really cant remember what the reasoning was for implementing BB at the time.. but I do know that TR2+ was 4.4mil XP and there were fewer quests so there was much complaining about lack of XP in the game.. so I think BB was done as a way to put some much needed XP in the game for multi-life TR's. But now.. I think the game would be better served by simply removing BB entirely and doing an across the board base XP increase of about 25% to all quests.

mezzorco
07-10-2015, 09:31 AM
~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

Let's assume I suppress my bravey bonus.
Then I enter a quest for the first time and complete it on normal
After that, I reactivate my bravery bonus and complete the same quest on elite.

Will this count for bravery bonus? Or will this break bravery streak? Or will it simply be ignored (streak paused and not applied, but not broken)?

Note that, if it counts for bravery bonus, with a bit of micro-management any player can get bravery bonus on every quest (assuming he is able to complete it at level).

FranOhmsford
07-10-2015, 09:33 AM
I think it might also be helpful to implement some kind of "noob bonus", where.. if you group with someone who is "New" to the game.. IE, an account less then 30 days old, that the NEW PLAYER can "Rate" how helpful the team was at the end of a quest. They get a little pop up after the quest completes, and they can rate each party member on a scale of 0 to 5 on how helpful that person was to them. Then.. after 24hrs the HELPFUL players receive XP "Stones" in the mail valued at 0-5 x 100xp (amount shown as example) for taking the time to help a new player out. (or some other reward).

Oh I can see it already - 5 Players get together and one of them creates a new account then gives his main account and the other 4 players 5 stars!

Then another one creates a new account.

Then another, and another, and the last one!

Then they start over!

Vindraxx
07-10-2015, 09:35 AM
Let's assume I suppress my bravey bonus.
Then I enter a quest for the first time and complete it on normal
After that, I reactivate my bravery bonus and complete the same quest on elite.

Will this count for bravery bonus? Or will this break bravery streak? Or will it simply be ignored (streak paused and not applied, but not broken)?

I would assume that the answer to the above should be that it gives you the streak, but I suppose clarification to know for sure would be good.

I have a follow up question though to which I'm sure sadly the answer is probably going to be no. Let's say I deactivate my bravery streak and run VoN1 on Elite. Then I get to Epic VoN1, reactivate my streak and run on elite. Would this get me the bravery bonus for epic?

Cordovan
07-10-2015, 09:36 AM
It is true that tying the group bonus to an event gives us the ability to monitor and moderate the bonus, but we think people will dig it. Part of this change allows us to have some nice "raid weekends"; it's a good bonus and system to have. Having it on an event also gives us a bit more wiggle room on the - amount - of the bonus. :)

If we were to see dramatic changes in grouping behavior, it's clearly something we'd look at. Our hope is that these changes have a beneficial impact, and address some long-standing concerns raised by near-everyone over the years. This will not be on the first deployment to Lamannia, but our hope is to get some of these changes out for public previewing soon-ish. Thanks for the great feedback so far!

Loromir
07-10-2015, 09:45 AM
There is now zero insentive to do teamwork with non-guildies I will be much less likely to buff or heal any more and it will be the same across the board. All they are doing is giving more and more incentive to look for a replacement but I dont think there is a MMO but lucky there is roll20



Instead of constant cynicism...how about some suggestions.

Vindraxx
07-10-2015, 09:46 AM
It is true that tying the group bonus to an event gives us the ability to monitor and moderate the bonus, but we think people will dig it. Part of this change allows us to have some nice "raid weekends"; it's a good bonus and system to have. Having it on an event also gives us a bit more wiggle room on the - amount - of the bonus. :)


I actually really like the idea of having it as a weekend bonus, will definitely encourage bringing people together at specific times and possibly would be something guilds and perhaps the forums would start to arrange activities in advance. As long as it's announced in the Chronicle, that would give people the better half of a week to start some planning for the weekend (which would add excitement at least for me).

Loromir
07-10-2015, 09:49 AM
~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.


Sev~

When you suppress your BB...does that suppress for the whole party or just you?

QuantumFX
07-10-2015, 09:52 AM
It is true that tying the group bonus to an event gives us the ability to monitor and moderate the bonus, but we think people will dig it. Part of this change allows us to have some nice "raid weekends"; it's a good bonus and system to have. Having it on an event also gives us a bit more wiggle room on the - amount - of the bonus. :)

You should have it automagically turn on at 12:01 am Friday and go away at 12 pm on Saturday!


If we were to see dramatic changes in grouping behavior, it's clearly something we'd look at. Our hope is that these changes have a beneficial impact, and address some long-standing concerns raised by near-everyone over the years. This will not be on the first deployment to Lamannia, but our hope is to get some of these changes out for public previewing soon-ish. Thanks for the great feedback so far!

If it works as advertised, it is an overall positive change for the game. At the very least I will be more inclined to take my main into the higher level epic content rather than worrying about maintaining my streak.

nibel
07-10-2015, 09:53 AM
~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

It has been asked by the community as a whole for ages. I just want to say that I liked the current mechanic more.


~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

No way to make the death impact the henchman contractor only? If you pay for an employee, it is your responsibility to take care of him/her. And it is not like 5% XP make that huge impact when the bonus reach three digits.


~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

Any chance to also HARD CAP the Streak count to 5? I think most people are unwilling to break their streak because the number raises too much while doing a heroic life, and psychology make us forget it is actually capped at 5. Seeing it actually frozen at the number 5 will make many people perceive how easy is to rebuild your streak again.

davmuzl
07-10-2015, 10:01 AM
Excuse me but why should we be forced to run Elite?

Back in the day people when E/H/N/N/N to infinity on certain quests because it was FASTER!

These days they run EN instead of EH or EE again because it's FASTER!

There's nothing the Devs can do to make N or EN slower than H/E or EH/EE and frankly the xp differential between N and E on the same quest is already massive so anymore would be over-kill!



And how exactly is this going to make more people run Elite?

The above two quotes are complete opposites!

You can't have Elite be both hard enough to make people group AND have more people running Elite than N/H - It just doesn't work like that!

The idea is that elite should give as much xp/min as normal or more. You are not forced to run elite, but you get more xp. And it's not only elite which is too easy. Also grouping doesn't directly have something to do with difficulty. If players group depends on the scaling of the quest. The difficulty simply depends on efficiency.
I'm also not asking for more xp on higher difficulty. I'm saying the system is good.

FranOhmsford
07-10-2015, 10:12 AM
The idea is that elite should give as much xp/min as normal or more. You are not forced to run elite, but you get more xp. And it's not only elite which is too easy. Also grouping doesn't directly have something to do with difficulty. If players group depends on the scaling of the quest. The difficulty simply depends on efficiency.
I'm also not asking for more xp on higher difficulty. I'm saying the system is good.

How do you make elite give exactly or even approximately the same xp/min as normal when there's so many different playstyles, gear set-ups, Builds and yes even skillsets in the game?

Who do you base it on? The Completionist Zerger who blasts through quests doing the minimal possible?
Or the 1st Life Flower Sniffer who takes 90 mins to run Heroic Wizard King?
Or somewhere in between but where in between?

If Elite gives the same XP/Min as normal and normal is 10x easier than Elite what incentive is there to run Elite?
If other incentives are given to Elite {Favour, Loot etc.} then what incentive is there to run anything other than Elite?


I'll tell you now {and I've said this many times before} that if Favour was removed from Elite I'd have no reason to run Elite EVER!
I don't care about XP/Min - I barely care about XP at all as it's so easy to get!

The ONLY reason I run Elite at all is for Favour!
OK and Saga Guild Renown but I can get that by running Heroic GH on a Lvl 28!

The ONLY reason I don't run Normal or Hard is because I only want to run each quest ONCE {per life} - Running Hard or Normal at Lvl would leave me having to go back later on to get the Favour!


If the Devs moved all Elite Favour to Hard and gave the True Elite Saga Rewards to Hard you'd never see me in an Elite again!
There'd be absolutely no reason for me to want to run Elite!

Cordovan
07-10-2015, 10:20 AM
When you suppress your BB...does that suppress for the whole party or just you?

It is an individual toggle, so just you.

arkonas
07-10-2015, 10:36 AM
Players:

1. Has so much knowledge/experience/gear/plat/TP/favor/past lives and just plain LEET UBERNESS!!!!(Attitude) that he doesn't feel any incentive to group with anyone who doesn't offer some BIG advantage to his group. "I don't need anybody! Don't you dare slow me down!"---(WON'T HELP)

2. Very experienced, well equipped/funded/organized/efficient willing to include anyone who doesn't cause a complete failure. ---(might help)

3. Reasonably experienced with above average gear and resources(minor "farming/grind", maybe few or no past lives). He knows he still has work ahead of him but has built something of consequence. "Working with others is probably still a good idea"---(will help)

4. Heroic experience through upper/mid levels with some good/named gear and an "OK" understanding of feats/skills/enhancements. "I'm a team player if you are" ---(appreciates help and will help)

5. Has almost half of the adventure packs and considerable enthusiasm for anyone who will "offer a pass" or an elite opener. Beginning to love the game - but still unaware of a ton of things the "old timers" know.----(needs some help and will help as much as can)

6. "My buddy and I just started playing, but he can't play this weekend. Can I run with you guys?" ----(needs help for sure)

You can only take 5. You're the leader. Who do you choose?

p.s. Hirelings are still an option I suppose.

Pseudograph

p.s. I think the general idea behind these changes is pretty good. Implementation/application is always the tricky bit.


i would rather have hundreds of 2-6 then a number 1. i will take 5 6's over just one 1.

JOTMON
07-10-2015, 10:39 AM
Players:

1. Has so much knowledge/experience/gear/plat/TP/favor/past lives and just plain LEET UBERNESS!!!!(Attitude) that he doesn't feel any incentive to group with anyone who doesn't offer some BIG advantage to his group. "I don't need anybody! Don't you dare slow me down!"---(WON'T HELP)

2. Very experienced, well equipped/funded/organized/efficient willing to include anyone who doesn't cause a complete failure. ---(might help)

3. Reasonably experienced with above average gear and resources(minor "farming/grind", maybe few or no past lives). He knows he still has work ahead of him but has built something of consequence. "Working with others is probably still a good idea"---(will help)

4. Heroic experience through upper/mid levels with some good/named gear and an "OK" understanding of feats/skills/enhancements. "I'm a team player if you are" ---(appreciates help and will help)

5. Has almost half of the adventure packs and considerable enthusiasm for anyone who will "offer a pass" or an elite opener. Beginning to love the game - but still unaware of a ton of things the "old timers" know.----(needs some help and will help as much as can)

6. "My buddy and I just started playing, but he can't play this weekend. Can I run with you guys?" ----(needs help for sure)

You can only take 5. You're the leader. Who do you choose?

p.s. Hirelings are still an option I suppose.

Pseudograph

p.s. I think the general idea behind these changes is pretty good. Implementation/application is always the tricky bit.

The first 5 to hit my lfm .. of course..

rehakp
07-10-2015, 10:43 AM
Those changes looks promissing and will encourage partying i believe.

But i would take 1 more step for low populated servers/times. Are you considering crossserver dungens/partying maybe ?

PS: and minor question about BB streak. If i have BB streak -> supress it (turn OFF) to run dungeon on normal -> run the dungeon -> turn ON BB -> run this same dungeon on Elite .... wil i get BB for this dungeon ? (my guess is not but just wonder)

Faltout
07-10-2015, 10:43 AM
Ok, so while the bonus is suppressed, you will not get a bonus.
The question is: When it is unsuppressed, are you able to get the bravery bonus for the quest you did earlier by doing it on elite this time?
Bumping my question since I see noone else is asking it (and it seems pretty important...)

EDIT: Ok, I just got hijacked :D

Maelphistez
07-10-2015, 10:52 AM
@Dev Team -

Whatever other opinions are expressed elsewhere in this thread, I just wanted to go on record and say thank you for this quality of life change. It may not be how I would have done it, but I think this change addresses a real problem. I care less about the "death penalty" change as it's pretty minor to me, but the ability to pause Bravery Bonus will in my experience be a huge boost to grouping. I think that you guys catch a lot of flack from some of the more vocal players about some of your decisions (and yes, I have been among them at times), so when I see you get it right I want to at least express my appreciation. Thanks again for the change.

Cleanincubus
07-10-2015, 10:56 AM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

Decent changes. However, I don't see any of this helping PUGs, at all. Large guilds (and guild alliances), and the Bravery Bonus have killed the PUGs. None of these changes are incentives enough to encourage people to group any more than they do now. Guild members will still group up with other guild members, and other guilds they are aligned with, especially when pausing the BB or when these special events go on. Of course there are exceptions, but not enough to make a real impact, as I'm sure you'll see the data for.

dunklezhan
07-10-2015, 11:10 AM
It is true that tying the group bonus to an event gives us the ability to monitor and moderate the bonus, but we think people will dig it. Part of this change allows us to have some nice "raid weekends"; it's a good bonus and system to have. Having it on an event also gives us a bit more wiggle room on the - amount - of the bonus. :)

If we were to see dramatic changes in grouping behavior, it's clearly something we'd look at. Our hope is that these changes have a beneficial impact, and address some long-standing concerns raised by near-everyone over the years. This will not be on the first deployment to Lamannia, but our hope is to get some of these changes out for public previewing soon-ish. Thanks for the great feedback so far!

I agree with you. My first thought was 'bonus grouping days, that's awesome'.

I would be interested in the real figures, but I would bet that after cove or mabar have been up, there are more groups in general for a while, as people remember that actually it's pretty fun and not that scary to PuG at all. Clearly if so it doesn't last, but that would be the beauty of special grouping days/raid weekends which would be shorter duration, but more frequent than cove needs to be, because cove needs to be intensive. What it would do is keep those little reminders going that PuGs are not horrid like they are in some games, and this might genuinely lead to 'trickle down' effect, i.e. a general rise in grouping - I don't expect miracles, but even a modest 10% rise on the base line would be noticeable.

Don't have them on all the time, too many people would keep returning to the idea that 'if I can finish solo three times in the time it takes to fill a group, then I'll just solo'. Special days would make more people make a special effort (yes it would, because I would make more of a special effort. That's 'more', strictly speaking, right? :) ), meaning for those focussed XP/min players there would be more groups to join, rather than them having to post and wait themselves.

So I say: yes to the grouping bonuses for special days, no to a permanent grouping bonus.


Or possibly, if I was feeling greedy, yes to a permanent grouping bonus, yes to an even higher special day grouping bonus. But I don't think that a permanent grouping bonus is needed. I just like XP :p

kmoustakas
07-10-2015, 11:15 AM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

These look awesome! Good thinking!

lostgunman
07-10-2015, 11:15 AM
Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes....All of that sounds like an excellent game plan.

DagazUlf
07-10-2015, 11:18 AM
I just can't help but be reminded of Mournlanders giving feedback that matches with these changes, oh.... let's see, years ago at this point.

:(

Starla70
07-10-2015, 11:18 AM
I really like the changes. I agree to all of them. Looking forward to the event weekends. Thanks guys!

hp1055cm
07-10-2015, 11:23 AM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.
Sev~+1

I'm not a big statistician so the percentages never were a big concern for me although I do tend to maintain BB while leveling.
Sounds like a change for the better.

Vanhooger
07-10-2015, 11:35 AM
Those changes do not stop people running EBB.
Either you remove BB forever and just add some more bonus on first time on elite or it won't help play other difficulties for casual/newer player that can't handle elite and can't find a party for normal or hard cos nobody is running it.

People will still run EBB, no matter what. BB need to go.

Ape_Man
07-10-2015, 11:52 AM
Those changes do not stop people running EBB.
Either you remove BB forever and just add some more bonus on first time on elite or it won't help play other difficulties for casual/newer player that can't handle elite and can't find a party for normal or hard cos nobody is running it.

People will still run EBB, no matter what. BB need to go.


I like these changes but I would be astonished if elite palyers would even go slumming and run a lower difficulty.

ilhares
07-10-2015, 11:53 AM
I think these are great **** changes. I'm on life 3+, like many others, and I have specifically not joined certain quest runs because people weren't running it on elite, and that XP bonus makes the grind much less annoying. I'm not worried about the speed of quest completion and never cared about the death factor much, either - so once again, this translates into an actual bonus for me if folks don't die. And more importantly, others still get the bonus when I **** it up somehow.

Silkenwise
07-10-2015, 12:02 PM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~


I see so much of this as a result of the lack of depth and lack of new and free low to mid level content. People don't group, because the bulk of the game exists at the top now. It is a treadmill of Epic players who TR to the lower levels for a few days, and max their XP grind to get through the wheel to the Epic tier again.

The depth of new content for starting players just isn't there. They still only have one starting city (Stormreach) and a fi****l of quests that are by and large the same (sewer, sewer, wilderness, rinse repeat)


If you want more people to group together, then improve the quests for starting players. Build a second or third city. (How many starting areas did Everquest have? 8? 12??) WoW has at least three...


The game just doesn't feel like a large world, especially compared to other MMOs. If you did more to improve the scope of the place and added in low and mid level adventures in all of the various areas, you would catch a lot of new people.

midgetlady
07-10-2015, 12:23 PM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

Shouldn't the party leader have the power to allow or not allow a hireling in a party if someone else calls it? Especially if the party leader has a plan and the person joining doesn't care?

Hafeal
07-10-2015, 12:28 PM
+1

I agree, more low level content is needed and a new starter area for sure.

Along with more voice and less dialogue boxes.

It's a youtube world, kids don't want to read.




I see so much of this as a result of the lack of depth and lack of new and free low to mid level content. People don't group, because the bulk of the game exists at the top now. It is a treadmill of Epic players who TR to the lower levels for a few days, and max their XP grind to get through the wheel to the Epic tier again.

The depth of new content for starting players just isn't there. They still only have one starting city (Stormreach) and a fi****l of quests that are by and large the same (sewer, sewer, wilderness, rinse repeat)


If you want more people to group together, then improve the quests for starting players. Build a second or third city. (How many starting areas did Everquest have? 8? 12??) WoW has at least three...


The game just doesn't feel like a large world, especially compared to other MMOs. If you did more to improve the scope of the place and added in low and mid level adventures in all of the various areas, you would catch a lot of new people.

dunklezhan
07-10-2015, 12:30 PM
I see so much of this as a result of the lack of depth and lack of new and free low to mid level content. People don't group, because the bulk of the game exists at the top now. It is a treadmill of Epic players who TR to the lower levels for a few days, and max their XP grind to get through the wheel to the Epic tier again.

The depth of new content for starting players just isn't there. They still only have one starting city (Stormreach) and a fi****l of quests that are by and large the same (sewer, sewer, wilderness, rinse repeat)


If you want more people to group together, then improve the quests for starting players. Build a second or third city. (How many starting areas did Everquest have? 8? 12??) WoW has at least three...


The game just doesn't feel like a large world, especially compared to other MMOs. If you did more to improve the scope of the place and added in low and mid level adventures in all of the various areas, you would catch a lot of new people.


I agree with much of what you say, but I think the point is DDO was never meant to feel like a large world. I'd sort of like it to as well, but it just wasn't the point. In most ways I prefer the way it gets bigger as you level, rather than starting as this big intimidating world which makes you feel so small starting out. Neverwinter Online exists for people who like open world DnD, assuming they also like the gameplay aspect of course.

Still. Would I like a City of Sharn starting area and Khorvaire alternative campaign from L1? You betcha. And even though I am not a fan of FR, I'd even like it if FR had a starter area and enough content to support the L1-20 process. Because options.

But saying that it not feeling like its a large world is the problem is almost to miss the point, because it is supposed to feel small and personal. Even if we had a starter area in Sharn, it would and should still feel just the same sort of scale, because content would still be so similarly gated and expanding by level, including explorer areas. Any instanced game is going to feel that way. Its an intentional design decision - because that appeals to a certain type of player. Is it the majority type of player of the MMO market? Evidently not. But if they can keep the game profitable off the small segment where it does, and if there isn't much other choice for the sort of player who does like that sort of thing... then keeping it that way is the only sensible thing to do.

Severlin
07-10-2015, 12:31 PM
So this 'suppression', is it going to be

1. talk to the guy and the next quest has no BB
2. talk to the guy and for the next hour there is no BB
3. or is it a toggle, BB is suppressed until you return to him and turn it back on?

It's a toggle that lasts until you talk to the NPC again.

Sev~

Qhualor
07-10-2015, 12:37 PM
+1

I agree, more low level content is needed and a new starter area for sure.

Along with more voice and less dialogue boxes.

It's a youtube world, kids don't want to read.

I don't agree with more low level content, but I do like the idea of voice. They could get anyone to do voice dialogue, but the dialogue boxes should be improved and more of them. Some people don't play with sound on for whatever reason.

EllisDee37
07-10-2015, 12:37 PM
Let's assume I suppress my bravey bonus.
Then I enter a quest for the first time and complete it on normal
After that, I reactivate my bravery bonus and complete the same quest on elite.

Will this count for bravery bonus? Or will this break bravery streak? Or will it simply be ignored (streak paused and not applied, but not broken)?It will not count as bravery and will not break your streak.

Bravery only applies the first time you run a quest. Every subsequent run of that quest you get the text "You are not eligible for bravery in this run."

So after suppressing your streak and running quest X on normal, you are no no longer eligible for bravery in quest X until you TR.

justagame
07-10-2015, 12:44 PM
Interesting changes, but the change to the so-called 10% death penalty (the no-deaths bonus) is a response to what is, IMO, a barely existent problem. For starters, as others have pointed out, having someone die doesn't cost you 10% -- it's more like 3% or so, once you factor in all of the other bonuses.

Secondly, I've been a player for years, and only once or twice have I ever encountered someone who actually got upset at losing the no-deaths bonus. If someone is going to not want to group because of that, then there's likely a whole range of other things about group-mates that will also bother them. They are a rarely encountered, but unfortunate minority, that's bad at math.

In short, I doubt that it was a real hindrance to grouping for the overwhelming majority of players.

What IS a hindrance to grouping? I hate to say it, but in my view, BB and streaks. Bravery bonus and bravery streaks were a really creative idea, and one with perfectly good intentions -- to provide a meaningful incentive to run content at its most challenging level. However, the ratio of BB and streak points to base XP, the cost of a broken streak, and the very narrow level window to get BB and streak bonus, is so small, it really narrows the field of would-be quest-mates.

The NPC takes care of broken streaks somewhat, but it would be better not to have to run all the way to an NPC in the hall of heroes just to activate this. Seems like a PITA, when a checkbox would be easier.

But the real problem is the level window. Want a party for Wiz King? You'll get plenty of level 14s, because that's the last level to get BB and streak points on that quest. 15? No way, they've gotten their huge xp bonus and have moved on. 11 or 12? No, because most of those people are saving it for 13-14, when they'll need it more. The BB and streak XP are so huge, they take the place of running additional quest(s). Enough that you often hear "I can't run that yet, I'm saving it for a level or 2 from now"

So, instead of an "the more the merrier" approach to grouping, we're inadvertently left with a huge number of inadvertent barriers to grouping.

Qhualor
07-10-2015, 12:48 PM
I see so much of this as a result of the lack of depth and lack of new and free low to mid level content. People don't group, because the bulk of the game exists at the top now. It is a treadmill of Epic players who TR to the lower levels for a few days, and max their XP grind to get through the wheel to the Epic tier again.

The depth of new content for starting players just isn't there. They still only have one starting city (Stormreach) and a fi****l of quests that are by and large the same (sewer, sewer, wilderness, rinse repeat)


If you want more people to group together, then improve the quests for starting players. Build a second or third city. (How many starting areas did Everquest have? 8? 12??) WoW has at least three...


The game just doesn't feel like a large world, especially compared to other MMOs. If you did more to improve the scope of the place and added in low and mid level adventures in all of the various areas, you would catch a lot of new people.

I don't see the bulk of the game existing at the top. I see lots of people running low level content all the time. The biggest reasons why people aren't grouping in those low to mid levels is because they are considered easy and you can level pretty fast. There is a ton of low to mid level content. I do see what appear to be newer players posting lfms, but a lot of vet players aren't going to bother joining.

Developing a new city or more starter areas will only be popular in the short term because it's new and something different. The only real way to get more players to group in those levels is to increase the challenge, but that will only slightly improve grouping with vets and new players. I would much rather see effort put into helping the new player learn the game in the low levels. By mid to high levels they should have a solid grasp and starting to group more with vets.

Kristii
07-10-2015, 12:48 PM
Overall, good changes. My suggestions:

1. In my opinion, making the flawless bonus completely individualized takes away any incentive to help other people and keep them from dying. It would be better in my opinion to have two separate but small bonuses related to death, one for your own deaths and the other for party deaths as a whole. When I say small, I mean something like 5%.

2. I've never liked the "all or nothing" approach when it comes to no-death bonuses. One rolled 1, and you're screwed. There's no reason to be particularly careful or strategic for the rest of the quest, just as long as you finish. I'd prefer it if Flawless was incremental, like ransack, conquest, etc. Maybe 5% for no deaths, reducing by 1% with every death?

3. The exp bonus for having extra people in your group is something that I think should be permanently implemented, at least for dungeons. And if you really want to encourage grouping, make the grouping bonus either equal or exceed the flawless bonus, so having a party actually "pays" more xp than having no deaths. For this to happen, you'd need a 10% bonus for two people, then add only 1-2% extra for every additional person after that. I don't see how this change would adversely effect soloers either. Hard-core soloers who hate groups won't lose anything they had before. The game wouldn't change at all for them, so there's no reason for them to whine. The game would only change for people that like to group or have no preference for solo vs. grouping, making them think it's actually worth it to put up an lfm.

Cordovan
07-10-2015, 12:48 PM
I just can't help but be reminded of Mournlanders giving feedback that matches with these changes, oh.... let's see, years ago at this point.

:(

You aren't wrong. :) Goes to show that when the time is right to get something done, long-term feedback matters.

Severlin
07-10-2015, 12:53 PM
What is the thought behind limiting the group bonuses to an event instead of full time?


~ If this bonus was always on, it would be seen as a penalty to soloing. "Losing out" on group XP is more palatable if it's just a special event.
~ By having the XP bonus at a specific time we hope players who normally solo might be more likely to try an alternate playstyle for a time.
~ Adding it as an event concentrates grouping activity, so we hpe that LFM will be busy during that time as players concentrate their grouping time to coincide with the bonus weekend.



2. Looking at methods to encourage grouping, any thought to having remnants drop in all epic quests regardless of player level (i.e. no 4 level restriction)?


I don't think we want to encourage players to run under level to farm Remnants. They are designed as a small additional perk of running harder content.



Any progress on fixing the grouping panel without having to populate Who first?


The population time has to take up extra time at some point. Whatever we do, we want the player to be able to control when that extra time takes place instead of adding it to login time like it used to.



Just to be clear, do I lose the Flawless bonus only if someone in my party dies and I also die or just if I die?


It only looks at your own deaths. You are in control of your own XP destiny.



When you suppress your BB...does that suppress for the whole party or just you?


Just you.


~ As an aside, we don't expect these changes to be a silver bullet to encourage everyone to start grouping. These are just meant to be quality of life fixing to reduce some of the pain points of the XP system with respect to grouping.

~ We've run across some players that enjoy the game but are tentative to participate in a group knowing their mistake could hurt the XP of the other party members.

Sev~

MysticElaine
07-10-2015, 12:54 PM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

I definitely like the death xp changes. I always felt bad when I caused loss of xp to those who I knew were hard core players, and on the flip side, sometimes I was guilty of feeling hatred towards the ones who did die (though I never mentioned it). So I ended up soloing as much as possible with hires, and if I did die, I either cussed at my hire (cuz it is ALWAYS their fault ;)) or shrugged it off. I definitely like the change as the only person I can get upset with in a party is myself. The one negative I can see happening is that even though you group up, some people might not actually try to keep the group mentality and just go off or not try to help you out because your death doesn't cause them any xp grief...but you can't change those kind of people or their play style. I read a few posts and liked the idea of each person getting a percentage for not dying themselves (10%), but then everyone also getting another percentage on top of that if no one dies (but make it a small amount so that you don't run into the issue again of people being upset that someone dies...so 1-2% more only).

Hirelings not causing xp loss is AWESOME because some of them are just plain stupid and I cuss at them more times than I would like to admit.

I'm so-so on the bravery streak thing. I think there are only a few quests I would pause for it, but I have been fine just skipping them altogether during my leveling process. I can see how it would help others though. I would like to suggest that there needs to be a change to allow the party leader to not allow hires that would break the streak from being summoned. Just last week I needed help with the boss fight at the end of a quest because I just didn't have enough dps and I wasn't able to buy a hire from the store as it was having issues. So I threw up an lfm asking for help, clearly stating the lvl ranges allowed. The minute my helper entered the quest, he brought in his owlbear hire, which caused me to lose out on my bravery bonus...he didn't ask me if he could use it, he just did it. I was mad but didn't say anything as he helped me finish the quest. I could have just quit and redone the quest another night, but I didn't want my xp pot to have been wasted.

The events--meh. If I feel like grouping, I will, if I don't, I won't. No event is going to change that. Zergs/soloists will probably make up the same amount of xp or more in the same amount of time or less than it would take to do a single quest with a group due to having to wait for everyone to buff, get equipment, go through the dungeon, etc.

fangblackhawk
07-10-2015, 12:55 PM
It is an individual toggle, so just you.

so i am level 18 say and i have bb on and am planning on running let sleeping dust lie (a traditional bb killer for me as i hate it but want to run shroud) i allow a lvl 19 guildy to join who has there bb shut off...... i still lose bb? this does make sense as it would be power leveling penalty

witch results in me turning my bb off and running it on normal with an all welcome 14----28 lfm on an aoe/cleave build and just running a super quick solo normal run on a cc or single target wiz/sorc assassin that can control where there dps goes to single targets....

is great change but unless it does actually expand some of the power leveling penalty as you level up more for sure not quite like epics but maybe 4 levels over 10-20 range idk might be alot of work but and confuse some players about who they can let in there group especially if it scaled with leveling

and then there is still the heroic cr 20 + quests that still confound me on the xp mechanic for power leveling pen ....... as in how it works ..... and why the xp is set that way at that transition




as a side note why does the in forum spell checker not know abbreviations from the glossary of short codes

EllisDee37
07-10-2015, 12:58 PM
What IS a hindrance to grouping? I hate to say it, but in my view, BB and streaks. Bravery bonus and bravery streaks were a really creative idea, and one with perfectly good intentions -- to provide a meaningful incentive to run content at its most challenging level. However, the ratio of BB and streak points to base XP, the cost of a broken streak, and the very narrow level window to get BB and streak bonus, is so small, it really narrows the field of would-be quest-mates.
[...]
But the real problem is the level window. Want a party for Wiz King? You'll get plenty of level 14s, because that's the last level to get BB and streak points on that quest. 15? No way, they've gotten their huge xp bonus and have moved on. 11 or 12? No, because most of those people are saving it for 13-14, when they'll need it more. The BB and streak XP are so huge, they take the place of running additional quest(s). Enough that you often hear "I can't run that yet, I'm saving it for a level or 2 from now"This is a consistent position for many people who dislike bravery, but it's missing a large part of what bravery is about.

Bravery doesn't just encourage people to run elite, it encourages people to run many different quests. The aspect where it gets people to run unpopular quests is generally ignored by the detractors, and I note that your example focuses on WizKing, a hugely popular quest. Bravery isn't about WizKing. Bravery is about sorrowdusk, threnal, restless isles, and all the content that would go dark without the streak bonus.

The streak mechanic isn't inherently good, though. I'd much prefer scrapping bravery and switching to a "first run" bonus where the first time you run a quest, the difficulty-based first time bonus gets doubled. (Drop elite first time from 80% to 75% to match the 150% bravery we currently get on live.) This preserves the incentive to run a variety of content while removing the limited level range and worries about breaking streaks.

Steve_Howe
07-10-2015, 12:59 PM
I think the experience changes will have a net positive effect.

They just should have been done sooner.

Thanks.

davmuzl
07-10-2015, 01:02 PM
How do you make elite give exactly or even approximately the same xp/min as normal when there's so many different playstyles, gear set-ups, Builds and yes even skillsets in the game?

Who do you base it on? The Completionist Zerger who blasts through quests doing the minimal possible?
Or the 1st Life Flower Sniffer who takes 90 mins to run Heroic Wizard King?
Or somewhere in between but where in between?

If Elite gives the same XP/Min as normal and normal is 10x easier than Elite what incentive is there to run Elite?
If other incentives are given to Elite {Favour, Loot etc.} then what incentive is there to run anything other than Elite?

The idea of having difficulty levels is to give players the option to choose the level that fits their playstyle and gear/skill level.
It is balanced around what is the most efficient way to run the quests, because that is what the majority of players are going to do.

Btw... Why not just move the xp bonus from the streak bonus to the bravery bonus? It's basically the same thing just without having to run to an NPC.

jakeelala
07-10-2015, 01:03 PM
This is a consistent position for many people who dislike bravery, but it's missing a large part of what bravery is about.

Bravery doesn't just encourage people to run elite, it encourages people to run many different quests. The aspect where it gets people to run unpopular quests is generally ignored by the detractors, and I note that your example focuses on WizKing, a hugely popular quest. Bravery isn't about WizKing. Bravery is about sorrowdusk, threnal, restless isles, and all the content that would go dark without the streak bonus.

The streak mechanic isn't inherently good, though. I'd much prefer scrapping bravery and switching to a "first run" bonus where the first time you run a quest, the difficulty-based first time bonus gets doubled. (Drop elite first time from 80% to 75% to match the 150% bravery we currently get on live.) This preserves the incentive to run a variety of content while removing the limited level range and worries about breaking streaks.

EllisDee for Dev!

EllisDee37
07-10-2015, 01:05 PM
so i am level 18 say and i have bb on and am planning on running let sleeping dust lie (a traditional bb killer for me as i hate it but want to run shroud) i allow a lvl 19 guildy to join who has there bb shut off...... i still lose bb? this does make sense as it would be power leveling penalty That's not power leveling. Power leveling is when a really high level character groups with a much lower level character. It isn't related to the quest level at all.

In the hypothetical you lay out, neither of you need to suppress your bravery because it is already suppressed automatically by virtue of a 19 being in the party. No streaks are broken, no harm no foul, right now on live when a 19 is in a party running a level 16 quest. You all get the message "You are not eligible for bravery in this run" in your xp report.


witch results in me turning my bb off and running it on normal with an all welcome 14----28 lfm on an aoe/cleave build and just running a super quick solo normal run on a cc or single target wiz/sorc assassin that can control where there dps goes to single targets....That would be powerleveling. The 14s would get no XP. Also note that in this example as well as your first, if you do this right now on live, bravery is suppressed and nobody has their streak broken.

Arcanoid
07-10-2015, 01:09 PM
Ever time you died, you lost more and more XP... no wonder that first grind to Level 10 took 6 months :)

How far we have come.



Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

JOTMON
07-10-2015, 01:16 PM
That's not power leveling. Power leveling is when a really high level character groups with a much lower level character. It isn't related to the quest level at all.

In the hypothetical you lay out, neither of you need to suppress your bravery because it is already suppressed automatically by virtue of a 19 being in the party. No streaks are broken, no harm no foul, right now on live when a 19 is in a party running a level 16 quest. You all get the message "You are not eligible for bravery in this run" in your xp report.

That would be powerleveling. The 14s would get no XP. Also note that in this example as well as your first, if you do this right now on live, bravery is suppressed and nobody has their streak broken.



I most commonly see power levelling in the Shroud raid on Elite
almost daily I see... LFM : 16-28 Elite shroud..
So sad to see Shroud being power level run when it used to actually be challenging to run when it was endgame.
New players are missing out on the true challenge of earning and building shroud gear.
How much of a grind it was.. there was no raid bypasses.. people would regularly exit before completing to avoid the timer and miss out on the end chest to farm shards/lower level ingredients.
almost makes me wish that raids would lock out over level players.. then it would be Shroud.. Max level 18... but this would probably hurt the levelling process and raiding in general.

EllisDee37
07-10-2015, 01:24 PM
I most commonly see power levelling in the Shroud raid on Elite
almost daily I see... LFM : 16-28 Elite shroud..
So sad to see Shroud being power level run when it used to actually be challenging to run when it was endgame.
New players are missing out on the true challenge of earning and building shroud gear.
How much of a grind it was.. there was no raid bypasses.. people would regularly exit before completing to avoid the timer and miss out on the end chest to farm shards/lower level ingredients.
almost makes me wish that raids would lock out over level players.. then it would be Shroud.. Max level 18... but this would probably hurt the levelling process and raiding in general.I very much miss the days when I could count on getting xp from Shroud.

Hafeal
07-10-2015, 01:27 PM
I just wanted to throw a huge shout out to Sev for his on-going contributions in this thread.

For a guy who was internet rumored (intermured?) to have been fired a couple of days ago, nice to see you employed and well. Or maybe you were close enough to a shrine to res? Either way, thank you. :D

der_kluge
07-10-2015, 01:30 PM
so i am level 18 say and i have bb on and am planning on running let sleeping dust lie (a traditional bb killer for me as i hate it but want to run shroud) i allow a lvl 19 guildy to join who has there bb shut off...... i still lose bb? this does make sense as it would be power leveling penalty

The 19 wouldn't be getting BB from Sleeping Dust anyway, and I would think the normal rules would apply - if a 19 joined a level 18 (on elite) quest, you wouldn't qualify for BB anyway. So, it wouldn't change anything.



witch results in me turning my bb off and running it on normal with an all welcome 14----28 lfm on an aoe/cleave build and just running a super quick solo normal run on a cc or single target wiz/sorc assassin that can control where there dps goes to single targets....

If you opened it up a "flagging only, 14-28" you wouldn't qualify for BB anyway (Assuming someone 19+ joined) since the first rule applies. You wouldn't need to turn off your streak for this - but would if the party filled with all of 18th level or less characters.



is great change but unless it does actually expand some of the power leveling penalty as you level up more for sure not quite like epics but maybe 4 levels over 10-20 range idk might be alot of work but and confuse some players about who they can let in there group especially if it scaled with leveling

That's a broader topic, and probably should be relevant to raids, I agree.

ilhares
07-10-2015, 01:34 PM
I most commonly see power levelling in the Shroud raid on Elite
almost daily I see... LFM : 16-28 Elite shroud..
So sad to see Shroud being power level run when it used to actually be challenging to run when it was endgame.

I think you're mixing up some terminology here. Power levelling is when somebody who is greatly over-level assists the smaller ones - for the purpose of being levelled. That isn't what's happening here. There's ZERO XP in a shroud run with the high level guys. That isn't power levelling. That's epic level guys helping stomp out the content because everybody needs the ingredients/completions to finish making their GS items.

The PL penalty is applied, sure, but that was never the intent when it comes to the Shroud. Every so often (on Cannith, at least) I find regular old XP style runs in there, if they can get enough people in the right level range who are flagged.

Gondandur
07-10-2015, 01:42 PM
It is true that tying the group bonus to an event gives us the ability to monitor and moderate the bonus, but we think people will dig it. Part of this change allows us to have some nice "raid weekends"; it's a good bonus and system to have. Having it on an event also gives us a bit more wiggle room on the - amount - of the bonus. :)

If we were to see dramatic changes in grouping behavior, it's clearly something we'd look at. Our hope is that these changes have a beneficial impact, and address some long-standing concerns raised by near-everyone over the years. This will not be on the first deployment to Lamannia, but our hope is to get some of these changes out for public previewing soon-ish. Thanks for the great feedback so far!

I like the idea of raid weekends but i would suggest to the dev-team to add also +x to loot per raid member, some people do raid at cap level and fully capped on ED too so they wouldn't find actractive the mere xp bonus.

About grouping, in my opinion the true problem is that in the last years we have lost the spirit of having a balanced party, few people care to do quests having a tank, a healer, a dps and a support character. All that really count is dps (saddly) and evasion.

JOTMON
07-10-2015, 01:42 PM
I think you're mixing up some terminology here. Power levelling is when somebody who is greatly over-level assists the smaller ones - for the purpose of being levelled. That isn't what's happening here. There's ZERO XP in a shroud run with the high level guys. That isn't power levelling. That's epic level guys helping stomp out the content because everybody needs the ingredients/completions to finish making their GS items.

The PL penalty is applied, sure, but that was never the intent when it comes to the Shroud. Every so often (on Cannith, at least) I find regular old XP style runs in there, if they can get enough people in the right level range who are flagged.

True the exactness of "power level" may not have been adhered to... but the end result is an advantage.. just not direct xp..
players are being overlevel assisted through shroud to get ingredients to craft items well before they would have been able to otherwise.
XP is earned later as a result of the advantage gained by having crafted gear. It may not be a direct xp from shroud benefit..but there is an advantage given.

Technically.. DDO gives XP negatives for over level players which negated the benefit of the so-called power levelling.

Gabrael
07-10-2015, 02:02 PM
if the BB system get a toggle, It basically mean that nothing will ever break the streak, unless you mess it up on purpose or by distraction.
Might as well remove the ability the break streak period.

IronClan
07-10-2015, 02:02 PM
If we were to see dramatic changes in grouping behavior


Here's the thing I think I alluded to in my first post You may see:
No one uses this feature very much, and conclude: no one is really interested in removing BB

Where it could actually be:
No one uses this feature very much, and conclude: because it's a pain in the a** to use the feature and it's hidden away where new players can't even get to it.

In any event the real harm in BB is the mindset of "we must do Elite at all times and never anything less"

This mindset causes people to never join Hard or Normal LFM's in heroic which means new players who start an LFM on anything less than Elite will get no joiners, now with this change the odd veteran who feels charitable might occasionally join the new players LFM. Well I mean he's already taking an XP hit and if he runs off to the Hall and jumps through a hoop he wont break streak, so theoretically he might once in a blue moon do that.

However that Mindset and the Elite XP bonus also causes LFM starters to always make Elite LFM's never any Hard or Normal, it causes them to make the level range Quest level +2 never less and never more. This change does nothing to mitigate or mollify that, it doesn't make it more flexible AND it requires jumping through a hoop besides.

Example: now a Vet can start a level 10 quest LFM with a 9 to 13 range... but he wont because anyone joining will have to run off and suppress their BB.
Example: now a new player can start a Normal LFM and have more than a 0.0% chance of someone joining, but because this would require a veteran to go surpress his streak (jump through a hoop) it's still almost hopeless.

So it will be very seldom used and it wont solve the problem. I see this Most often used by established friends who want to run with each other but are enough levels apart that they would break one of their streaks... I can see it used occasionally when someone wants to run a level 10 quest (to finish it's arc or get flagged say) when he's accidentally leveled to 13 without realizing he still hadn't run it.

That's some really niche uses for something that will take developer time to implement. Don't get me wrong those are legit uses and positives... but it's not enough IMO.

Here's how to really fix this:

keep the "first time on this setting bonus" and "quest XP ransack" as these actually do 100% of the good work of BB but with none of it's binary on or off nature.
make Elite actually Elite and not the default setting
make Hard actually hard
Remove BB from the game
Rebalance XP in heroics so that the incentive to run Elite is higher XP (per longer time spent to get it) and loot drop chances but not using the rigid and binary BB mechanic.

Watch as new players suddenly have no problem getting someone to join their Hard or Normal LFM (like it was before this dreadful social engineering mistake was implemented) because there's no hoops to jump through and no precious BB streak meaningless number to maintain and perhaps see new players stick with DDO because it doesn't feel like a game that's trying to force them do Elite content when they are totally unprepared for that.

dunklezhan
07-10-2015, 02:04 PM
The population time has to take up extra time at some point. Whatever we do, we want the player to be able to control when that extra time takes place instead of adding it to login time like it used to.


Can you look into making it populate the first time the social panel is opened in a session, rather than players having to go manually do it? Or putting a refresh button on the grouping panel would be absolutely fine.

Thar
07-10-2015, 02:09 PM
I don't think we want to encourage players to run under level to farm Remnants. They are designed as a small additional perk of running harder content.


Isn't the fact that remnants will not drop if you have a higher level character make the kill a disincentive to grouping with other higher lvl epic players?

And the champion boost kills a lvl 28 as easily as a 22. 400-600 pt hits don't care about level. Nothing about champions is easier on epics if your 22 or 28.

knockcocker
07-10-2015, 02:12 PM
This is a consistent position for many people who dislike bravery, but it's missing a large part of what bravery is about.

Bravery doesn't just encourage people to run elite, it encourages people to run many different quests. The aspect where it gets people to run unpopular quests is generally ignored by the detractors, and I note that your example focuses on WizKing, a hugely popular quest. Bravery isn't about WizKing. Bravery is about sorrowdusk, threnal, restless isles, and all the content that would go dark without the streak bonus.

The streak mechanic isn't inherently good, though. I'd much prefer scrapping bravery and switching to a "first run" bonus where the first time you run a quest, the difficulty-based first time bonus gets doubled. (Drop elite first time from 80% to 75% to match the 150% bravery we currently get on live.) This preserves the incentive to run a variety of content while removing the limited level range and worries about breaking streaks.

Agree with this (again) - this seems a whole lot simpler than patching on another convoluted mechanism onto
an already convoluted mechanism. Moreover, it's a lot more casual and new player friendly.

IronClan
07-10-2015, 02:17 PM
if the BB system get a toggle, It basically mean that nothing will ever break the streak, unless you mess it up on purpose or by distraction.
Might as well remove the ability the break streak period.

Decrementing it by one automatically solves this problem BTW (cap it as 5 and decrement by one when you "break streak" you can then get it back the next time you run Elite, or you can break it again and decrement it by two and need to do 2 elites in a row to get it back.

This solution has been suggested and resuggested so many times I have NO CLUE who first suggested it but it's the clear winner, it requires no hoops jumped through, it gives minor punishment for breaking streak that is not enough to keep someone from breaking streak when they want to run someone's non BB group, yet is enough to want to run some Elite again to get it back. Finally it removes that "I have collected 1000 meaningless digits in my Elite streak report that does nothing, no one can see and has nothing but negative connotations (it means you're rigidly unwilling to help fill non BB LFM's)...

All of the good things BB did for the game are better accomplished by First run on difficulty setting bonus and XP ransack... BB is just damaging the game and doing nothing positive right now...


This is a consistent position for many people who dislike bravery, but it's missing a large part of what bravery is about.

Bravery doesn't just encourage people to run elite, it encourages people to run many different quests. The aspect where it gets people to run unpopular quests is generally ignored by the detractors, and I note that your example focuses on WizKing, a hugely popular quest. Bravery isn't about WizKing. Bravery is about sorrowdusk, threnal, restless isles, and all the content that would go dark without the streak bonus.

The streak mechanic isn't inherently good, though. I'd much prefer scrapping bravery and switching to a "first run" bonus where the first time you run a quest, the difficulty-based first time bonus gets doubled. (Drop elite first time from 80% to 75% to match the 150% bravery we currently get on live.) This preserves the incentive to run a variety of content while removing the limited level range and worries about breaking streaks.

Edit: ^this first run and ransack to mitigate doing the same quests over and over, leaving Bravery bonus doing spit all except enforcing a rigid Elite group selection.

Xionanx
07-10-2015, 02:24 PM
if the BB system get a toggle, It basically mean that nothing will ever break the streak, unless you mess it up on purpose or by distraction.
Might as well remove the ability the break streak period.

Exactly!

If I can turn the streak on and off at will, all this will do is add additional time to "getting to a quest" as players will need to run to the NPC to "Turn off their streak"..

Why even have it go down at that point? For the players who are too lazy to both going to turn it off?

Ailia
07-10-2015, 02:51 PM
Exactly!

If I can turn the streak on and off at will, all this will do is add additional time to "getting to a quest" as players will need to run to the NPC to "Turn off their streak"..

Why even have it go down at that point? For the players who are too lazy to both going to turn it off?

At this point, as said, the only way to loose your streak with these changes is lazyness or forgetfulness.

What gameplay purpose do these changes even serve other than wasting time before quests like old ship buffs did?

If you want to streamline the system, just remove bravery and add to the first time bonus.

FranOhmsford
07-10-2015, 02:57 PM
Here's the thing I think I alluded to in my first post You may see:
No one uses this feature very much, and conclude: no one is really interested in removing BB

Where it could actually be:
No one uses this feature very much, and conclude: because it's a pain in the a** to use the feature and it's hidden away where new players can't even get to it.

In any event the real harm in BB is the mindset of "we must do Elite at all times and never anything less"

This mindset causes people to never join Hard or Normal LFM's in heroic which means new players who start an LFM on anything less than Elite will get no joiners, now with this change the odd veteran who feels charitable might occasionally join the new players LFM. Well I mean he's already taking an XP hit and if he runs off to the Hall and jumps through a hoop he wont break streak, so theoretically he might once in a blue moon do that.

However that Mindset and the Elite XP bonus also causes LFM starters to always make Elite LFM's never any Hard or Normal, it causes them to make the level range Quest level +2 never less and never more. This change does nothing to mitigate or mollify that, it doesn't make it more flexible AND it requires jumping through a hoop besides.

Example: now a Vet can start a level 10 quest LFM with a 9 to 13 range... but he wont because anyone joining will have to run off and suppress their BB.
Example: now a new player can start a Normal LFM and have more than a 0.0% chance of someone joining, but because this would require a veteran to go surpress his streak (jump through a hoop) it's still almost hopeless.

These are all very good points


So it will be very seldom used and it wont solve the problem. I see this Most often used by established friends who want to run with each other but are enough levels apart that they would break one of their streaks... I can see it used occasionally when someone wants to run a level 10 quest (to finish it's arc or get flagged say) when he's accidentally leveled to 13 without realizing he still hadn't run it.

That's some really niche uses for something that will take developer time to implement. Don't get me wrong those are legit uses and positives... but it's not enough IMO.

Uh what?

If you run a Lvl 10 quest at 13 it won't break your streak anyway!

If your friends are too high for BB then again neither your nor your friends streaks will be broken!

I will give a couple of examples though where I see this being used:

1) Iconics and Stoned Characters going into Epics who don't want to have to go back and farm out the Heroic versions on Elite first so they don't break their streaks when running EN.

2) Many Epic Players who want to run mainly ENs but keep their streak intact for the inevitable TR.

3) End-Game content {Raids} that's mainly run on EN - You can't run it on EN or EH because it would break your streak, You can't run it on EE because you're not capable of leading and there's never any groups up!
I read in in-game chat today that one player would be happy with this change because he's never run MoD because it would break his streak and now he can!

Postumus
07-10-2015, 03:06 PM
These are all very good points



Uh what?

If you run a Lvl 10 quest at 13 it won't break your streak anyway!

If your friends are too high for BB then again neither your nor your friends streaks will be broken!




He either misspoke or doesn't understand the BB mechanic. His examples you quoted don't make sense to me either.

Ailia
07-10-2015, 03:08 PM
1) Iconics and Stoned Characters going into Epics who don't want to have to go back and farm out the Heroic versions on Elite first so they don't break their streaks when running EN.

2) Many Epic Players who want to run mainly ENs but keep their streak intact for the inevitable TR.

3) End-Game content {Raids} that's mainly run on EN - You can't run it on EN or EH because it would break your streak, You can't run it on EE because you're not capable of leading and there's never any groups up!

I won't deny that 3, especially, comes up a lot. An annoyance for some and a big deal for others. None of these would be an issue with streaks removed in favor of more first time xp though.

FranOhmsford
07-10-2015, 03:12 PM
I won't deny that 3, especially, comes up a lot. An annoyance for some and a big deal for others. None of these would be an issue with streaks removed in favor of more first time xp though.

Actually I think they would!

If people won't break streak to run MoD on EN.
And people will go back and run the Dailies on Heroic Elite so they don't break their streaks when running the daily ENs.
What makes you think they'll accept getting less xp for first time on Normal than first time on Elite?

They'll still insist that first run must be on Elite!

justagame
07-10-2015, 03:17 PM
This is a consistent position for many people who dislike bravery, but it's missing a large part of what bravery is about.

Bravery doesn't just encourage people to run elite, it encourages people to run many different quests. The aspect where it gets people to run unpopular quests is generally ignored by the detractors, and I note that your example focuses on WizKing, a hugely popular quest. Bravery isn't about WizKing. Bravery is about sorrowdusk, threnal, restless isles, and all the content that would go dark without the streak bonus.

The streak mechanic isn't inherently good, though. I'd much prefer scrapping bravery and switching to a "first run" bonus where the first time you run a quest, the difficulty-based first time bonus gets doubled. (Drop elite first time from 80% to 75% to match the 150% bravery we currently get on live.) This preserves the incentive to run a variety of content while removing the limited level range and worries about breaking streaks.

Oh, I completely agree that it provides incentives to run lots of different quests, as opposed to farming one over and over, but my point about the narrow level window still holds. My point for choosing Wiz King was not that no one runs it -- it was that for any high XP quest, the bonus was such a big deal that you WANT run wait to run it at a specific level -- thus narrowing the level range of people what would consider grouping. (There are better quest examples, but I'm sure you get my point).

At any rate, I totally agree with preferring to scrap streaks in favor of a first-run bonus. But that still doesn't solve the level window problem as it pertains to grouping. Without the huge 1st-time bonus, there is a wider range of levels at which people might be willing to run a given quest. How many level 8s, even capable level 8s, would join a pug for a level 9 quest on elite? Not many if they want to preserve that first time bonus for when it matters most. Or a level 12 player, knowing that the penalty (excluding bonus) is small. Nope, you'd cost the group a HUGE bonus, more than just the 10% penalty. So instead of having level 8-11, or 9-12 characters being the pool of players that might consider that quest, now it's more like level 10-11, period. That significantly narrows the pool of players who would even consider joining your group.

Ailia
07-10-2015, 03:17 PM
Actually I think they would!

If people won't break streak to run MoD on EN.
And people will go back and run the Dailies on Heroic Elite so they don't break their streaks when running the daily ENs.
What makes you think they'll accept getting less xp for first time on Normal than first time on Elite?

They'll still insist that first run must be on Elite!

Your forgetting that there are multiple classes of first time bonuses. First time completion and first time per difficulty.

Add what would be the BB/streak bonuses to first time completion, doing elite first and then a hard later vs doing hard now and an elite later would then have the same net benefit.

XodousRoC
07-10-2015, 03:18 PM
Any chance to also HARD CAP the Streak count to 5? I think most people are unwilling to break their streak because the number raises too much while doing a heroic life, and psychology make us forget it is actually capped at 5. Seeing it actually frozen at the number 5 will make many people perceive how easy is to rebuild your streak again.

Both the parties that inflate and those who minimize the effects of breaking bb are wrong. It is wrong to assume the we are only building up to max bonus again 5 quests later because if you break it once, people will expect you to have no problem doing so again...and again....and again... The problem I would have with breaking my 1k+ leet streak has nothing to do with the 5 quests it would take to build it to max bonus, but rather it's the unrealistic expectation that I would be willing to do so at any time, leading me to solo even more than I currently do (to avoid people constantly asking me to break it).
-A increment system that scales down in the same manner it scales up (as mentioned by others in the thread) would eliminate this concern for me.-

FranOhmsford
07-10-2015, 03:24 PM
I don't think we want to encourage players to run under level to farm Remnants. They are designed as a small additional perk of running harder content.


Sev~


Underlevel?

He/she was asking if you'd allow them to run Overlevel and still earn remnants.


Why can I not get remnants from EE VoN 3 or Wiz King when on my Lvl 28 1st Life character but I can when on my {not my personally - just an example} Lvl 20 Completionist?

As an aside - Can you please change the Renown penalties to be more in-line with XP penalties?
It hurts new players and casuals very much to not be able to get renown unless they run at BB level!
{Changing remnants to have the same penalties to drop rates as XP currently does would also be nice}.

Thar
07-10-2015, 03:33 PM
Isn't the fact that remnants will not drop if you have a higher level character make the kill a disincentive to grouping with other higher lvl epic players?

And the champion boost kills a lvl 28 as easily as a 22. 400-600 pt hits don't care about level. Nothing about champions is easier on epics if your 22 or 28.

I know my own guild has said... nope can't join if over lvl 25, etc for some quests. this isn't even farming, it's normal saga quests.

btolson
07-10-2015, 03:42 PM
Is there going to be some lengthy timer associated with suppressing and reactivating a streak? If not, I'm uncertain how this differs substantially from simply removing Bravery altogether and upping first time completions on hard/elite by X/Y% to compensate, which would be easier to implement and one less intricacy to teach new players about.

Any dev response to this?

FranOhmsford
07-10-2015, 03:42 PM
Isn't the fact that remnants will not drop if you have a higher level character make the kill a disincentive to grouping with other higher lvl epic players?

Yep!


And the champion boost kills a lvl 28 as easily as a 22. 400-600 pt hits don't care about level. Nothing about champions is easier on epics if your 22 or 28.

Actually if that Lvl 28 hasn't done any E-TRs or is in an off destiny while the Lvl 22 has done multiple E-TRs and is in main destiny the Lvl 28 will get creamed while the 22 will blast right on through it!

And don't even start on the difference Heroic TRs make!


I know my own guild has said... nope can't join if over lvl 25, etc for some quests. this isn't even farming, it's normal saga quests.

Ouch - The whole reason to run Sagas is for the Renown - So a Guild refusing to have a Lvl 26-28 in the run is atrocious!

Full_Bleed
07-10-2015, 03:51 PM
Underlevel?

He/she was asking if you'd allow them to run Overlevel and still earn remnants.
You really could not understand what he was saying?

He was talking about not trivializing remnants by allowing people to farm under level content (i.e. running dungeons that were under their level).

FranOhmsford
07-10-2015, 04:04 PM
You really could not understand what he was saying?

He was talking about not trivializing remnants by allowing people to farm under level content (i.e. running dungeons that were under their level).

And how exactly is EE VoN 3 underlevel for a 1st Life no E-TR Lvl 26-28 player farming an off destiny?

In fact the opposite is true and the Multi-Lifer going through his E-TRs will have a far easier time running this at Lvl 20 than that 1st Lifer at 28!



With first time bonuses you can still get decent XP 4 or 5 levels above BB {Heck on some quests you can get more than 10k even 6 levels above BB!
You have the same chances at loot no matter how over-level you are for the quest you're running!
Yet for Renown and Remnants you have to be at BB level or lower? WHY?


P.S. The Devs should know that when we use the terms Over-Level and Under-Level on these forums {and in-game!} we're not talking about the Content but about the Player!
By swapping those terms around the Devs are going to run into questions like mine!

General_Gronker
07-10-2015, 04:11 PM
its not an entirely rational reason. .

No, it's entirely rational. Go to leave a guild. Notice what it asks you? That guild loses renown. That's a demonstrable result that you have contributed. By just quitting and joining a new guild, you have, in fact, lost the investment you have made in your previous guild.

Rational. It means something.

psykopeta
07-10-2015, 04:27 PM
~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.



u know, i prolly won't use it, but i must say

you
are
a
genious

indeed, great idea, must say

it allows me, to, for example run citw in non ee my 1st time every life

sad thing i don't use to run raids

but it's a great idea

Silverleafeon
07-10-2015, 04:28 PM
You aren't wrong. :) Goes to show that when the time is right to get something done, long-term feedback matters.

LOL, I was thinking yesterday, the 2014 PC discussed some of this also, could not remember whether it was a tangent of one of our threads or wild debating tangents on our of the official threads. Then I wondered if I was suppose to wait out the waiting period before posting....lol...too late...


Interestingly enough, the one point was thrashed over due to possible abuse was changed to an event status. The more I think about it, the more I like the event idea.

By the way, remember that build your guild event?
That was fun, could we repeat it again someday?

Silverleafeon
07-10-2015, 04:33 PM
Underlevel?

He/she was asking if you'd allow them to run Overlevel and still earn remnants.


Quest is under Character Level = Character is over Quest Level

or

As the order of the stick comic pointed out, if TSR had used a thesaurus on the word "level" we would not have this problem?



Going down a level = less spell power or deeper dungeon or vampire's touch?

Silverleafeon
07-10-2015, 04:36 PM
Bravery doesn't just encourage people to run elite, it encourages people to run many different quests.
+1 This


No more Shadow Crypt 10x normal, then Ex1, Hx1, Cx1 then moving on to the next high xp quest on the list.

Almost any quest is great xp the first time you do it.

Silverleafeon
07-10-2015, 04:39 PM
Any dev response to this?

I am hoping I can toggle it off an on all I want while I am waiting for a raid/quest to fill just for the fun of it. EI zero timer please, and ty.

FranOhmsford
07-10-2015, 04:49 PM
+1 This


No more Shadow Crypt 10x normal, then Ex1, Hx1, Cx1 then moving on to the next high xp quest on the list.

Almost any quest is great xp the first time you do it.

Actually I still get people asking if I'm going to Window Farm Shadow Crypt every single time I put an LFM up {which is pretty often as I have multiple characters going through TRs}.

Shadow Crypt E/H/N etc. was actually never that popular anyway as it required two or more people to be flagged or have alt accounts ready and waiting to open - The Window Farm requires you to run the same difficulty each time.


I still get people wanting to run Tempest Spine Hard straight after Elite!
I still get people asking if I'm going to do VoN 3 again even though I've put on the LFM VoN 3/4!

With High XP Quests there'll always be people wanting to run them multiple times!

Enderoc
07-10-2015, 05:20 PM
I think bravery bonus streaks should just be done away with personally and keep with the concept...added players adding more challenge adds more experience for quest completions on hard/elite...where the champ spawns become more lethal as the party grows. Maybe even include extra xp for number of champs killed in the end.

Impaqt
07-10-2015, 05:26 PM
no no no...




So it will be very seldom used and it wont solve the problem. I see this Most often used by established friends who want to run with each other but are enough levels apart that they would break one of their streaks... I can see it used occasionally when someone wants to run a level 10 quest (to finish it's arc or get flagged say) when he's accidentally leveled to 13 without realizing he still hadn't run it.


a level 13 in a l10 quest does not get any streaks nor does he break any streaks.


u know, i prolly won't use it, but i must say

you
are
a
genious

indeed, great idea, must say

it allows me, to, for example run citw in non ee my 1st time every life

sad thing i don't use to run raids

but it's a great idea

CitW is a L24 quest. all you need is ONE L27 or 28 in the group and BB does NOT apply. You do NOT get the bonus. You do not break your streak.

DEVS. do you see this?

Systems should NOT be in the game for 2+ years and still remain a mystery to folks.

DrawingGuy
07-10-2015, 05:44 PM
Really, I do like these changes. I stopped caring about the XP loss from a death a long time ago - fun/socializing > XP per min, even after 90 lives. The thing is, I know death bother people. I still have people that will apologize profusely for a death, had people leave party over a death, and know people even in my guild that won't join more difficult content because of fearing of being a "burden". That death affecting no one else goes a long way to helping alleviate that.

One thing that I do have to say: don't be afraid of "penalizing" solo XP by giving group XP. Unless we bring back the days of content requiring trappers, healers, tankers, etc as you'll die a horrible death otherwise (which in the current game is not possible as content that challenges certain meta builds will obliterate most other builds breaking the game), parties need to be incentivized other ways. XP is a good way to do that.

I solo all the time. I put up LFMs for everything I do, but they don't always fill. Not because no one in that level range is online - just no one that range needs a party. Always a bit ironic to pop open the player list and see another player or two in the same quest I am, but they didn't hit my LFM or put one up themselves because they can already solo the quest, and bringing someone along gains them nothing but possibly making the quest harder game mechanic wise. There's already plenty of XP in the game now - there is absolutely no reason a soloist should struggle getting to cap. Their choice will became solo and play at the same level without waiting for other players, or play with others and have it easier, though they may have some wait times. If more people want to party, those wait times would likely go down.

FranOhmsford
07-10-2015, 06:03 PM
CitW is a L24 quest. all you need is ONE L27 or 28 in the group and BB does NOT apply. You do NOT get the bonus. You do not break your streak.

DEVS. do you see this?

Systems should NOT be in the game for 2+ years and still remain a mystery to folks.

Really?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Bravery_Bonus


For Epic (base level 21 and higher) quests;
The spread between quest level and character level is increased by two, so the highest character level in the party cannot be greater than 4 levels above the base level of the quest.
This means a lvl 21 epic quest will allow bravery bonus for groups where no character is above lvl 25.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Caught_in_the_Web

is Base level 24 so you'd need a Lvl 29 in Party to not break streak!

Lagin
07-10-2015, 06:09 PM
The game just doesn't feel like a large world, especially compared to other MMOs. If you did more to improve the scope of the place and added in low and mid level adventures in all of the various areas, you would catch a lot of new people.

I hear what you're saying BUT.....This game is based in Eberron, And in particular Stormreach. They've added Korthos (as lack-luster as it is) And have redone the harbor 3 times now.
Creating another starting point is a good idea, but not in some other setting.
If there is ANY other setting for character creation and new low level content, it should be Faerun.

We had a long time ago, training halls on an island. And they were kind of cool, but the game evolved past them. We then had the 3 starting quests in what is now Inspired Quarter, and again, the game evolved past that. Then Korthos Island.

So as you can see the concept is to get new players familiar with the area you'll be playing in. If they develop past Stormreach for new players then I feel we will give a wrong impression of what lies ahead.

I do agree, we need an upgrade for new player intro, but keep it where it belongs.

As for ANOTHER reference to "other MMOs" I for one wish people would stop doing that. It serves no purpose on THESE forums.


NOW let's put this thread back on track. The devs are making some great changes.

The BB toggle is great. In fact Im behind most of the proposed changes. And am looking forward to how they are fine-tuned.
Thank Sev and the devs for interaction on A LOT of threads and ideas and proposed changes. Very refreshing.

Enderoc
07-10-2015, 06:14 PM
New lower level content should be added and be made more challenging...so when you TR you can have incentive to group and involve new players too. I think it should be level 4-7 range though as you want new players to start having at least some familiarity. The new challenging quests should have champion crown icons to mark them on the maps. And to be honest...we should open everything under 10th level to ftp. The ftp crowd should still have a hard grind to 20 in hamster wheeling it. Any quest above 10 before that was in the previous package deals should remain closed...even if you open those areas to the public. The quests should be closed, not the areas they are in...in any case. And for those scrapping by, maybe have the options to sell some quests individually higher than they would be if the package deal was broken down.

Singular
07-10-2015, 06:37 PM
Excellent changes, well thought out. Thank you for listening to the community!

Singular
07-10-2015, 06:41 PM
1. theres another nail towards less reasons for teamwork in a group.

Totally the opposite - now people won't be punished for grouping with new players and people playing flavor builds.


Sorry its terrible and more dumbing down, the loss of the bonus was to encourage teamwork. I cant say I care for it at all

Ridiculous - we've been asking for these changes for 5 years or more. They should have been put in place a long time ago - would have prevented all kinds of nerd rage and bad feelings in game. It's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay past time they implemented them!

Qhualor
07-10-2015, 07:14 PM
Totally the opposite - now people won't be punished for grouping with new players and people playing flavor builds.

punished for playing with new players? what about vets? I never looked at not getting such a small amount of xp for someone dying as being punished. death happens to all. nobody in this game is invincible.

Steiner-Davion
07-10-2015, 07:27 PM
Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

All sounds good and while you are at it can you fix the Shroud so that the quest story driven deaths between parts 4 and 5 do not cause you to loose the XP bonus for not dying please!