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giftie
06-24-2015, 12:53 PM
I love my Warlock, but these days everyone's running one. So I was wondering how high DCs you could get from a Drow Sorc in Exalted Angel. Higher base spell level than Warlock and Transcendental Magic versus Wizard should put them maybe 1-2 DC lower in Necro but ahead in everything else.

I did my pure Sorc lives pre-U19, and today's trees look very lackluster. While I would probably level as Acid Savant, Harper T5 looks a lot more appealing than any of the Savants at 20, though I like the graphics and knockdown immunity of Air Savant. My main question is whether to pair it with EK for Medium Armor, Improved Shield and Force spell power, or Air Savant for KD immunity and cheaper Metamagics.

I was thinking of a TF two-hander with Necro focus and +100 USP, paired with Sage's Mantle and Locket and whatever augments I can fit - preferably all of Necro, Evo, Enchantment and Illusion.

Um. Anyway, I tossed something together as a starting point. Looking for feedback on everything from race to spell selection. (The investment in INT and combat related enhancements assume EK, for a Savant I'd go versatile adept. I don't expect to actually hit things, it's more for flavor and Versatile Adept isn't really that appealing anyway.)

Sorcerer 20
True Neutral Drow


Stats
. . . . . . . .32pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ---- . . --------
Strength. . . . .8. . . .+6. . . .4: CHA
Dexterity . . . 10. . . .+6. . . .8: CHA
Constitution. . 15. . . .+6. . . 12: CHA
Intelligence. . 13. . . .+6. . . 16: CHA
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . .+6. . . 20: CHA
Charisma. . . . 20. . . .+6. . . 24: CHA
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: CHA

Skills
. . . . . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Concent . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Spellcr . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Balance . . . . . . . ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. ½. ½. . .11
UMD . . . 1. ½. 1. 1. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. . .11
Bluff . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1 .2 .4 . 7
Tumble. . 1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .12. 3. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 6. 6


Feats (Errors)

.1. . . . : Maximize Spell
.3. . . . : Empower Spell
.6. . . . : Quicken Spell
.9. . . . : Heighten Spell
12. . . . : Past Life: Wizard
15. . . . : Spell Focus: Necromancy
18. . . . : Spell Penetration
21 Epic . : Spell Focus: Evocation
24 Epic . : Epic Toughness
26 Destiny: Toughness
27 Epic . : Ruin
28 Destiny: Hellball


Spells

Jump, Protection from Evil, Tumble, Magic Missile
Resist Energy, Knock, Scorching Ray, Melf's Acid Arrow
Chain Missiles, Displacement, Acid Blast, Halt Undead
Dimension Door, Wall of Fire, Force Missiles, Phantasmal Killer
Eladar's Electric Surge, Niac's Biting Cold, Protection from Elements, Mind Fog
Acid Fog, Chain Lightning, Circle of Death
Otto's Sphere of Dancing, Finger of Death, Delayed Blast Fireball
Black Dragon Bolt, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Polar Ray
Energy Drain, Wail of the Banshee, Mass Hold Monster

Enhancements (80 AP)

Drow (6 AP)
Spell Resistance, Charisma, Spell Resistance II, Charisma

Harper Agent (33 AP)
Agent of Good I, Charisma, Agent of Good II, Charisma, Agent of Good III
Traveler's Toughness III, Strategic Combat
Magical Endurance III, Know the Angles III
Highly Skilled III, Strategic Combat, Intelligence
Vigor of Life, Magic of Austerity, Intelligence
Moment of Clarity

Eldritch Knight (41 AP)
Eldritch Strike, Spellsword: Acid, Spellsword II: Flame, Spellsword III: Frost, Spellsword IV: Shock, Eldritch Blade
Improved Mage Armor III, Toughness III, Item Defense III, Battlemage III
Improved Shield III, Shield Training, Light Armor Proficiency, Martial Training, Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Arcane Barrier III, Elemental Resistance II, Charisma
Medium Armor Proficiency, Charisma


Destiny (24 AP)

Exalted Angel
Radiant Power I, Endless Faith I, Healing Power I, Charisma
Soundburst III, Charisma
Piercing Spellcraft III, Charisma
Charisma
Leap of Faith, Charisma
Divine Wrath, Charisma

Twists of Fate (18 fate points)
Piercing Spellcraft (Tier 3 Magister)
School Specialist: Necromancy (Tier 2 Magister)
Precise: Evocation (Tier 2 Draconic)

moo_cow
06-24-2015, 11:32 PM
So where does the damage come from if you aren't going into the savant trees? This seems like a low output damage build. Savant's offer 10% crit chance, more spell power, and a lot more single target damage on large hp enemies. You also lose max caster levels which hurts your dps immensely. You lose 5 mcl and 80 spell power just from the cores of the savant.

If you are going for necro go for the entire shibang... drop toughness and epic toughness and take +2 necro dc's. If you want the necro dc you want to be in exalted angel to run necro as high as you can. Although I always recommend draconic over ea for the damage if you are set on a high necro dc it could be good.

Spell pen doesn't make sense, unless you are preparing for the upcoming devils.

You won't need that much umd. My sorc has a 60 umd with 2 level up points. Which I wasted it seems.

Don't worry too much about putting points into int at the start. I rather have 28 hp over 1-2 spell power on a drow sorc.

Grab shield as one of your level 1 spells, it will stop all 3 mm spells. It will also allow you to dodge 10% of glancing blows while you are running around. If you are going to mass hold it could be good to get hypnotism. Keep heighten off and it will lower will saves by 3 for 10 sp. Great for holding.

Black dragon bolt isn't a great damage spell, I would suggest power word stun instead. It is a no fail stun that works on everything, including undead. It is also great for getting helpless damage on champs with high saves/high hp.

Acid fog is another spell that isn't great for damage. I would recommend flesh to stone for mark of death. Or Otilukes for another elemental damage spell.

Chain missiles, magic missiles, and force missiles are all bad spells that you might want to replace.

Pick up the rage spell for the extra hp.

Also, you can't take epic toughness before you take toughness.

giftie
06-25-2015, 03:55 AM
The basic problem with the savants is that every benefit is offset in another element. At least that seems like a problem, but then as I said I have limited experience with Sorcs. But you're probably right - I should focus on an element - most likely Air, in my case, for everyday damage and make the most of it.

Not just Necro, but Illusion (for PK) and Enchantment too. I only took the SF feats needed for the twists. I'll consider getting more Necro feats, but not entirely sold on the idea - I'll give it a test run before committing.

Well, there's still Drow, Rakshasa and a few other annoying things. Again, a single feat is needed to twist in more spell pen. Of course, an option would be to switch to arcane ED (Fatesinger mitigates the DC loss somwehat) for Drow content, since every CL is an extra spell pen.

Gotcha. Was worried about Balance, but I guess that wouldn't matter in Air. Will adjust attributes as you say.

I deliberately left shield out since I took it from EK. Okay, so BDB is out and Acid Fog is out. Air Savant looking very likely at the moment. =) I took the force spells because I figured it'd be nice to have them if I ever wanted to play in Shiradi. But then this build would be sub-optimal for Shiradi spamming anyway.

Well, while you can't actually take Epic Toughness before Toughness, you can feat swap Epic Toughness into any epic feat slot after aquiring Toughness as a destiny feat, saving the level 27 slot for something else. It's basically 80 HP for one feat, since level 26 ED feats look very weak.

Very sound advice all in all - thanks a bunch!

giftie
06-25-2015, 06:41 AM
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/455302-Test-build-Spray-N-Pray

I don't think this is what I'm looking for. Right off the bat you lose 8 CHA, 2 DC from base spell level and 1 DC from any non-Evo school. Prismatic Spray sounds like fun, though!

moo_cow, how does this look? Uodated with relevant parts, dropped acid (no pun intended), DBF and Polar Ray (not sure if that's wise). Do I still need Ruin if I take Disintegrate? Fully meta'ed Ruin is more SP efficient, but at 100 SP I can't afford to spam it. I'd still like points in UMD to reach no-fail scrolling sooner. Feather Fall is only there to save a yellow slot for a DC augment. Haven't laid out gear plans yet, but would like 4 yellow slots.

Stats
. . . . . . . .32pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ---- . . --------
Strength. . . . .8. . . .+6. . . .4: CHA
Dexterity . . . 10. . . .+6. . . .8: CHA
Constitution. . 16. . . .+6. . . 12: CHA
Intelligence. . 10. . . .+6. . . 16: CHA
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . .+6. . . 20: CHA
Charisma. . . . 20. . . .+6. . . 24: CHA
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: CHA

Skills
. . . . . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Concent . 3. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Spellcr . 3. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
UMD . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. .9
Tumble. . 1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . . 8. 2. 2. 2. 2. 2. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4


Spells

Jump, Protection from Evil, Shield, Hypnotism
Resist Energy, Knock, Electric Loop, Invisibility
Rage, Displacement, Lightning Bolt, Halt Undead
Dimension Door, Wall of Fire, Ice Storm, Phantasmal Killer
Eladar's Electric Surge, Niac's Biting Cold, Protection from Elements, Mind Fog
Undeath to Death, Chain Lightning, Disintegrate
Otto's Sphere of Dancing, Finger of Death, Prismatic Spray
Symbol of Death, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Power Word: Stun
Energy Drain, Wail of the Banshee, Mass Hold Monster

Enhancements (80 AP)

Air Savant (41 AP)
Air Savant, Air Affinity, Greater Air Affinity, Conduction, Light on Your Feet, Elemental Apotheosis
Spell Critical, Electrocution III
Efficient Maximize III, Spell Critical
Efficient Empower III, Spell Penetration, Spell Critical, Charisma
Efficient Heighten II, Feather Fall, Spell Critical, Charisma

Wipey
06-25-2015, 07:05 AM
I'd want Sunburst ( Whelon, High Road, Necro ) and Web ( anything with drow really ) and go more Enchant heavy. Even on Palemaster I find Enchant more useful while levelling and even at cap it's often easier ( and cheaper ) to Disco > Hypno > Mass Hold > Eburst or Breath than Wail + Circle + Finger + PWK or whatever. Not to mention necro is really hard to get to work in Stormhorns underlevel for example.
And would take more charisma instead of Ruin.

PK loses its bite in epics, I'd also take PWK and get Enervation.
Protect elements is meh, Cyclonic Blast or Break Enchantment for utility or Ball Lightning for aoe nukage is better.
But spells are cheap to swap of course.

giftie
06-25-2015, 08:04 AM
Sounds reasonable, so Electric Loop -> Web, Protection from Elements -> Ball Lightning. Switching PK and Energy Drain for Enervation and PWK... possibly, depends how much mileage I get out of PK. Sunburst should be possible to fit in.

I will be even CHA for most of the epic levels (and at 28), and assuming I don't immediately TR where would you suggest getting the second CHA? Another feat or a twist?

SirValentine
06-25-2015, 03:47 PM
...go more Enchant heavy. Even on Palemaster I find Enchant more useful while levelling


Interesting. I had the opposite feeling in heroics. Even when I played a full Enchantment-spec Wizard, I mostly ended up just insta-killing stuff. The crowd control was superfluous in heroic.



and even at cap it's often easier ( and cheaper ) to Disco > Hypno > Mass Hold > Eburst or Breath than Wail + Circle + Finger + PWK or whatever. Not to mention necro is really hard to get to work in Stormhorns underlevel for example.


Won't disagree with that.

Eth
06-26-2015, 04:25 AM
Spells

Jump, Protection from Evil, Shield, Hypnotism
Resist Energy, Knock, Electric Loop, Invisibility
Rage, Displacement, Lightning Bolt, Halt Undead
Dimension Door, Wall of Fire, Ice Storm, Phantasmal Killer
Eladar's Electric Surge, Niac's Biting Cold, Protection from Elements, Mind Fog
Undeath to Death, Chain Lightning, Disintegrate
Otto's Sphere of Dancing, Finger of Death, Prismatic Spray
Symbol of Death, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Power Word: Stun
Energy Drain, Wail of the Banshee, Mass Hold Monster


Would consider the following:
1. Web for Electric Loop - Electric Loop is nice, but you get the SLA, that is enough. You won't be able to cycle through 2 ELs when nuking, since there are better spells for dealing damage and the stun alone isn't worth it. Web gives you utility against mobs where SR is an issue.

2. Solid Fog for PK.
PK is hard to land in epics due to the double save. Your illusion DC won't be outstanding.
Solid Fog is an excellent reflex save debuff (-5, no save) that I'd highly recommend for anything that you throw more than 1 or 2 spells on to kill them. Or for areas where you are sticking a bit longer. It also slows down mobs making kiting easier. The slow debuff also stacks with ice storm.
It further gives you 20% conceilment against mobs with true seeing. Don't ignore this spell. It's amazing.

3. Crushing Despair for Wall of Fire.
One of the best will save debuffs.

4. Ball Lightning for Protection from Elements.
Another AoE nuke. I usually cycle through these "expensive" nuking spells (Hellball, Ball Lightning, Chain Lightning) coupled with Turn the Page from Litany clickies.
Protection doesn't offer much IMO, it just trades some SP for HP and not even great at that.

5. Sunburst for Symbol of Death.
Much better utility spell. Instakills Vampires and Shadows. Symbol of Death is just to slow for how the game plays nowadays.
Alternatively Polar Ray if you spec into cold.

6. Resist energy for scorching ray (for epics)
Basically most people cover resists through items these days at lvl 20+.
Scorching Ray is a nice spell to keep Empyrian Magic stacked up and doesn't suffer from CL/MCL penalties if you take the opposing savant tree (cold) or play in elemental form, or both, as long as you hit CL11.
Would take it no matter how you spec.
Fire spellpower isn't hard to slot either (Epic Inferno Bracers or Epic Noxious Embers).


If you plan to run MoDs take Blindness (drop Knock) and Flesh to Stone (drop Undeath to Death).

giftie
06-27-2015, 08:33 AM
Thank you all who contributed with advice; I've pretty much finalized the spell list and regarding feats I'll just have to see what works and what doesn't.

slarden
06-28-2015, 04:57 PM
I'd want Sunburst ( Whelon, High Road, Necro ) and Web ( anything with drow really ) and go more Enchant heavy. Even on Palemaster I find Enchant more useful while levelling and even at cap it's often easier ( and cheaper ) to Disco > Hypno > Mass Hold > Eburst or Breath than Wail + Circle + Finger + PWK or whatever. Not to mention necro is really hard to get to work in Stormhorns underlevel for example.
And would take more charisma instead of Ruin.

PK loses its bite in epics, I'd also take PWK and get Enervation.
Protect elements is meh, Cyclonic Blast or Break Enchantment for utility or Ball Lightning for aoe nukage is better.
But spells are cheap to swap of course.

Enchantment is definitely my preferred school over necromancy primarily because it's much more party friendly. However, I was able to get an effective DC even in Stormhorns on my Palemaster - so much so that a pitiful person on Sarlona was telling everyone I use exploits and what I was doing was not possible legitimately. So I recently started posting some of my builds to dispel his nonsense.

Here is a PM build I have planned for U27 (assuming spell penetration is a thing again):

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461262-U27-Morninglord-Palemaster-Necromancer-Build

Basically the secret sauce of the build for me when etr was new was necromancy augmentation (-10 fort saves to enemies) and now I can add on to that with 2 more DC from epic deific diadem. Death Aura and Lesser Death Aura ticks twice every 2 seconds. Necromancy augmentation used to debuff me also, but it doesn't do that any more. I haven't played PM much except for CC in MOD since the boss DPS is so sucky. Still, it's an amazing build to clear the deck although far from the pre-U14 glory days. Necromancy is viable in parties, it just can tick off people that are obsessed with kill count and PM especially are useless in too many places - it's not such a fun solo build in high level EE quests.

The aura benefit isn't limited to just pms - they are just the only build that also benefits from healing with the aura.

slarden
06-28-2015, 05:07 PM
Thank you all who contributed with advice; I've pretty much finalized the spell list and regarding feats I'll just have to see what works and what doesn't.

Very nice concept. I've used EA with just about every charisma and wisdom based caster - but not a sorc yet. EA is just about to get better so I am expecting the usual suspects to demand nerfs. They were successful in getting warlock DCs negatively modified a bit.

The judgment / lay to rest / judge the many abilities for 5 AP could be useful in eShavarath (depending on the enemies I guess).

You probably already realize, but empyrean magic is a really great twist along with energy burst.

HuneyMunster
07-01-2015, 05:49 AM
Would consider the following:
1. Web for Electric Loop - Electric Loop is nice, but you get the SLA, that is enough. You won't be able to cycle through 2 ELs when nuking, since there are better spells for dealing damage and the stun alone isn't worth it. Web gives you utility against mobs where SR is an issue.

2. Solid Fog for PK.
PK is hard to land in epics due to the double save. Your illusion DC won't be outstanding.
Solid Fog is an excellent reflex save debuff (-5, no save) that I'd highly recommend for anything that you throw more than 1 or 2 spells on to kill them. Or for areas where you are sticking a bit longer. It also slows down mobs making kiting easier. The slow debuff also stacks with ice storm.
It further gives you 20% conceilment against mobs with true seeing. Don't ignore this spell. It's amazing.

3. Crushing Despair for Wall of Fire.
One of the best will save debuffs.

4. Ball Lightning for Protection from Elements.
Another AoE nuke. I usually cycle through these "expensive" nuking spells (Hellball, Ball Lightning, Chain Lightning) coupled with Turn the Page from Litany clickies.
Protection doesn't offer much IMO, it just trades some SP for HP and not even great at that.

5. Sunburst for Symbol of Death.
Much better utility spell. Instakills Vampires and Shadows. Symbol of Death is just to slow for how the game plays nowadays.
Alternatively Polar Ray if you spec into cold.

6. Resist energy for scorching ray (for epics)
Basically most people cover resists through items these days at lvl 20+.
Scorching Ray is a nice spell to keep Empyrian Magic stacked up and doesn't suffer from CL/MCL penalties if you take the opposing savant tree (cold) or play in elemental form, or both, as long as you hit CL11.
Would take it no matter how you spec.
Fire spellpower isn't hard to slot either (Epic Inferno Bracers or Epic Noxious Embers).


If you plan to run MoDs take Blindness (drop Knock) and Flesh to Stone (drop Undeath to Death).

I agree with all these suggestions.

The OP also needs to fit in more spells from a secondary element as there are some mobs that are immune or even heal from lightning damage. Scorching Ray i nice as suggested along with DBF and meteor swam is another option. If taking both these you will most probably have to lose FoD and Wail.

Cold options would be Otilukes(6), Polar Ray(8) while Cone of Cone would mean you would lose better options.

Ive at times considered using Shout(4) and Greater Shout(8) as they are boosted by air enhancements and since their damage got an increase during Bard pass.

giftie
07-01-2015, 07:28 AM
I took this build to 24 before TR-ing. I made it as a Warlock surrogate, but it didn't come close to my Warlock. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't nearly as fun. Warlock has much, much better insta-kills (Devour Soul and Hurl through Hell with Your Will is Mine, double FoD for casters/low fort mobs) and much better spell point efficiency and boss DPS as well.

giftie
07-06-2015, 12:00 PM
A lot of people make max-DC based characters, even warlocks (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/462137-Warlock-EE-orange-red-purple-named-dps-is-kind-of-a-joke), and then say the efficiency and dps isn't there. They are design choices regardless of class.

I found my red/purple-name DPS to be comparable to Sorc on my Soul Eater, and I didn't have to chug pots. I met a TS who maxed blasts and spellpower and claimed he'd reached 9k crits on blasts, and I believe it. (And no, it wasn't an "over 9000" joke).