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Steelstar
06-08-2015, 02:08 PM
***An updated version of Brilliance and Shining Through can be found in this post:***
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461301-Enlightened-Spirit-Changes?p=5629378&viewfull=1#post5629378 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461301-Enlightened-Spirit-Changes?p=5629378&viewfull=1#post5629378)



Hey, everyone! We wanted to let you know about some upcoming changes in the Enlightened Spirit enhancement tree ahead of them being in Lamannia release notes. As many of you know, Lamannia is an early look at our plans for an update, and during that process, we get feedback from a variety of sources. Sometimes, certain kinds of feedback require us to heavily change or remove certain abilities that have already appeared on Lamannia or in dev posts.


In this case, the abilities Break Forth, Cure Moderate Wounds SLA, and Power of Enlightenment: Positive have been removed from the Enlightened Spirit tree. We recognize that many (most?) of you like these abilities, and their removal creates some questions about survivability of Warlocks, especially ones primarily in this tree.


We’re currently planning to add the following abilities:

Tier 4 (replacing CMW SLA):


Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with Temporary HP equal 10+(Warlock Level) every time it ticks. These Temporary HP stack with all sources other than Brilliance itself.


Tier 5 (replacing Break Forth):


Shining Through: (Target: Self) Gain 100 Temporary HP which last for ten minutes. Each Epic level adds an additional +25. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)


We’re very interested in making sure these abilities are worth investing in, and would appreciate your feedback on them. Power of Enlightenment: Positive was on a multiselector with the Light version; our current plan is to leave the Light version on its own. On a separate note, we’ve made some adjustments to the last two Core abilities of Enlightened Spirit:

Previously:


Level 18: Spirit Armor: When your Eldritch Aura is active, each time you are hit by an attack, you gain a stack of Spirit Armor. (Spirit Armor: +1 stacking PRR and MRR. Stacks up to 20 times.) Passive: Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.



Level 20: Celestial Spirit: +2 CON, +2 CHA.Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage, and you gain 10 Melee Power, Ranged Power, and Universal Spell Power.


New:


Level 18: Celestial Spirit: Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage. Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.



Level 20: Ultimate Enlightenment: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Celestial Spirit is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.

Madja
06-08-2015, 02:23 PM
The new cores seem very nice. I won't be using them personally, as I usually multi-class, but I can definitely see the appeal of them.

I'm not very happy about the CMW/Break Forth changes, though. I've never been a fan of temporary HP, so I'll probably forgo these. If I'm honest this change would take a lot of the appeal from warlock away for me. With only one heal in soul eater it seems to me like a warlock might have a lot of protection/avoidance, but will slowly take damage that they have no way of recovering.

Can I ask the reason for the change? Was it because it was too overpowered?

Thanks for the update, though! :)

Kerthyn
06-08-2015, 02:29 PM
I like the core changes but not the the tiers.

Temporary hit points? why? Why not make it a healing aura like Cleric?

slarden
06-08-2015, 02:35 PM
I am disappointed that Power of Enlightenment and the Cure Moderate Wounds SLA was removed. I don't recall seeing any negative comments about these, but i might have missed it.

Steelstar
06-08-2015, 02:37 PM
I am disappointed that Power of Enlightenment and the Cure Moderate Wounds SLA was removed. I don't recall seeing any negative comments about these, but i might have missed it.

You didn't miss any negative comments about it; forums were generally positive about them.

As we said, we get feedback during this stage from a variety of sources, not just forums/in-game; in this case, such feedback required we remove these abilities.

Drwaz99
06-08-2015, 02:38 PM
Temporary hitpoints that last 10 min yet are easily gone in one hit even at max level (100+25*8 = 300 currently)? With a 30 sec cooldown? And it's Tier 5? I can tell you right now, it'll be as useful as +tumble would be as a tier 5 enhancement. It's very, very poor for tier 5. The way it stands now, it would be incredibly lackluster even at tier 1 (but it may have uses then as it wouldn't lock you out of other tier 5's in other trees).

Shoemaker
06-08-2015, 02:44 PM
Hey, everyone! We wanted to let you know about some upcoming changes in the Enlightened Spirit enhancement tree ahead of them being in Lamannia release notes. As many of you know, Lamannia is an early look at our plans for an update, and during that process, we get feedback from a variety of sources. Sometimes, certain kinds of feedback require us to heavily change or remove certain abilities that have already appeared on Lamannia or in dev posts.


In this case, the abilities Break Forth, Cure Moderate Wounds SLA, and Power of Enlightenment: Positive have been removed from the Enlightened Spirit tree. We recognize that many (most?) of you like these abilities, and their removal creates some questions about survivability of Warlocks, especially ones primarily in this tree.
Most indeed. What you forgot to mention was that the reason for this is that higher powers that be said that positive needed to be taken off the table for warlocks. I do respect this decision (despite being very saddened by it), and hope there is time to create some nice replacements to supplement the loss.

We’re currently planning to add the following abilities:

Tier 4 (replacing CMW SLA):


Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with Temporary HP equal 10+(Warlock Level) every time it ticks. These Temporary HP stack with all sources other than Brilliance itself.
What is the tick timer? 6 seconds, 10 seconds, 15 seconds? If I'm reading this right, then every <<duration>> you will have a chunk of temp HP that is reset with 11-29(31) HP that never expires (except when it is consumed by damage). Is this correct?


Tier 5 (replacing Break Forth):


Shining Through: (Target: Self) Gain 100 Temporary HP which last for ten minutes. Each Epic level adds an additional +25. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)
Is the healing amp applied before or after the temporary HP and is the temp HP effected by HA? I am not convinced that this should have an SP cost to be honest. What is the stackability of this? (can I click the button every 30 seconds before I go in a big combat for ten minutes and get 19-20 stacks (1900 - 2000 temp HP)?


We’re very interested in making sure these abilities are worth investing in, and would appreciate your feedback on them. Power of Enlightenment: Positive was on a multiselector with the Light version; our current plan is to leave the Light version on its own. On a separate note, we’ve made some adjustments to the last two Core abilities of Enlightened Spirit:
Please keep the selector but replace <<positive>> option with <<pact dmg type>> option so Fey with get sonic and great one with get acid and fiend will get fire.

Previously:


Level 18: Spirit Armor: When your Eldritch Aura is active, each time you are hit by an attack, you gain a stack of Spirit Armor. (Spirit Armor: +1 stacking PRR and MRR. Stacks up to 20 times.) Passive: Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.



Level 20: Celestial Spirit: +2 CON, +2 CHA.Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage, and you gain 10 Melee Power, Ranged Power, and Universal Spell Power.


New:


Level 18: Celestial Spirit: Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage. Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.



Level 20: Ultimate Enlightenment: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Celestial Spirit is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.
Not too much to say about this as it seems decent, except that if you're going to do this, I'd rather have it add 7d6 (for a total of 10d6) light damage instead of light spell power. Not sure how much of an actual change that would be without testing, but it seems easier to understand and more straight forward to me.



Comments for first thoughts in red above.

Steelstar
06-08-2015, 02:50 PM
What is the tick timer? 6 seconds, 10 seconds, 15 seconds? If I'm reading this right, then every <<duration>> you will have a chunk of temp HP that is reset with 11-29(31) HP that never expires (except when it is consumed by damage). Is this correct?



It goes at the same rate/time as your Eldritch Aura; in next Lamannia that'll be every 5/4/3/2 seconds, depending on how many Cores you have from this tree.

slarden
06-08-2015, 03:06 PM
You didn't miss any negative comments about it; forums were generally positive about them.

As we said, we get feedback during this stage from a variety of sources, not just forums/in-game; in this case, such feedback required we remove these abilities.

The DM is always right, but this change makes me sad.

Ailia
06-08-2015, 03:17 PM
Tier 4 (replacing CMW SLA):


Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with Temporary HP equal 10+(Warlock Level) every time it ticks. These Temporary HP stack with all sources other than Brilliance itself.


Tier 5 (replacing Break Forth):


Shining Through: (Target: Self) Gain 100 Temporary HP which last for ten minutes. Each Epic level adds an additional +25. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)



The lack of any real scaling via heal amp or spellpower compared to the positive spells is a massive downgrade in terms of actual usefulness, perhaps allow them to scale with healamp? This would remove the need for the silly epic level clause on Shining Through where it is competing with Cocoon anyways.

Xerio
06-08-2015, 03:23 PM
First off, Thank you for the heads up Steelstar.


Hey, everyone! We wanted to let you know about some upcoming changes in the Enlightened Spirit enhancement tree ahead of them being in Lamannia release notes. As many of you know, Lamannia is an early look at our plans for an update, and during that process, we get feedback from a variety of sources. Sometimes, certain kinds of feedback require us to heavily change or remove certain abilities that have already appeared on Lamannia or in dev posts.


In this case, the abilities Break Forth, Cure Moderate Wounds SLA, and Power of Enlightenment: Positive have been removed from the Enlightened Spirit tree. We recognize that many (most?) of you like these abilities, and their removal creates some questions about survivability of Warlocks, especially ones primarily in this tree.


We’re currently planning to add the following abilities:

Tier 4 (replacing CMW SLA):


Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with Temporary HP equal 10+(Warlock Level) every time it ticks. These Temporary HP stack with all sources other than Brilliance itself.


Tier 5 (replacing Break Forth):


Shining Through: (Target: Self) Gain 100 Temporary HP which last for ten minutes. Each Epic level adds an additional +25. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)


We’re very interested in making sure these abilities are worth investing in, and would appreciate your feedback on them. Power of Enlightenment: Positive was on a multiselector with the Light version; our current plan is to leave the Light version on its own. On a separate note, we’ve made some adjustments to the last two Core abilities of Enlightened Spirit:

Previously:


Level 18: Spirit Armor: When your Eldritch Aura is active, each time you are hit by an attack, you gain a stack of Spirit Armor. (Spirit Armor: +1 stacking PRR and MRR. Stacks up to 20 times.) Passive: Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.



Level 20: Celestial Spirit: +2 CON, +2 CHA.Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage, and you gain 10 Melee Power, Ranged Power, and Universal Spell Power.


New:


Level 18: Celestial Spirit: Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage. Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.



Level 20: Ultimate Enlightenment: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Celestial Spirit is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.


I like the changes to the core (on paper atleast, I'll have to get onto Lam to test it). Thank you for the addition of full BaB! 20% max HP is a very nice touch too. I am going to assume that the +10 universal stacks with the +20 light for a total of +30 light from this. Any chance another 2-3d6 light can be added with the capstone? I'm a little concerned with the loss of the prr/mrr bonus from spirit armor. Though the warlock is not meant to be a tank by any means so it makes sense.

Brilliance
The temp HP thing might work though I am a little worried it isn't enough. The WarPriest 20th core (capstone) Implacable Foe that grants 100 temp HP every 3 seconds is gone in a blink in epics (which is the only place you really can use a 20th lv enhancement..), it's a nice buffer but I would hardly consider that an accurate exchange/supplement for the loss of a cure SLA. I'm hoping you've got character copy fixed for the next Lamannia run so I can give this a solid test.

Though I'd be happy with a personal 1d6 or 2d6 positive energy heal that runs so long as the aura is going, Celestial rebirth or somesuch silly name?

Shining Through:
first off, Each Epic level adds an additional +25. For 20 seconds. Recast time is 30 seconds, base 100 temp HP lasts 10 mins? As someone else posted will we be able to recast this every 30 seconds and continually stack it up? As stated above the WarPriest capstone Implacable Foe regenerates 100 temp HP every 3 seconds for 18 seconds, even in a lv 20 EH dungeon that's gone in a blink, EE it's barely noticed.

Has the martial proficiency been added into the 12th lv core?

ArcaneArcher52689
06-08-2015, 03:24 PM
You didn't miss any negative comments about it; forums were generally positive about them.

As we said, we get feedback during this stage from a variety of sources, not just forums/in-game; in this case, such feedback required we remove these abilities.

First, I love the core abilities. If released, I will be making a pure 20 enlightened spirit, guarunteed.

However, the two tier abilities are being heavily nerfed. Temp HP has a very hard time competing with real healing, thanks to spell power and heal amp. Would their be anyway to decrease the healing amount, but keep it as healing instead of temp HP?

Steve_Howe
06-08-2015, 03:27 PM
Would their be anyway to decrease the healing amount, but keep it as healing instead of temp HP?

Not if Wizards of the Coast said they can't.

dozkal-ne
06-08-2015, 03:28 PM
..

Krelar
06-08-2015, 03:29 PM
As we said, we get feedback during this stage from a variety of sources, not just forums/in-game; in this case, such feedback required we remove these abilities.

So WoTC said "No you can't make warlocks work that way"? :eek:

Blackheartox
06-08-2015, 03:29 PM
I dont understand that capstone at all.

Why?

dozkal-mo
06-08-2015, 03:33 PM
Tier 4 (replacing CMW SLA):


Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with Temporary HP equal 10+(Warlock Level) every time it ticks. These Temporary HP stack with all sources other than Brilliance itself.


Tier 5 (replacing Break Forth):


Shining Through: (Target: Self) Gain 100 Temporary HP which last for ten minutes. Each Epic level adds an additional +25. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)



Previously:


Level 18: Spirit Armor: When your Eldritch Aura is active, each time you are hit by an attack, you gain a stack of Spirit Armor. (Spirit Armor: +1 stacking PRR and MRR. Stacks up to 20 times.) Passive: Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.



Level 20: Celestial Spirit: +2 CON, +2 CHA.Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage, and you gain 10 Melee Power, Ranged Power, and Universal Spell Power.


New:


Level 18: Celestial Spirit: Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage. Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.



Level 20: Ultimate Enlightenment: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Celestial Spirit is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.



I think these changes are all great. Temp HP makes more sense to me for a Warlock than flat out healing. And it ticking with your aura gives you incentive to invest in it.

Celestial Spirit is, I think, definitely good enough for peeps wanting to splash two levels of something else, but holy **** I'm a big fan of that top tier. I will definitely be going pure on my first build if this is at least close to final specs.

InsanityIsYourFriend
06-08-2015, 03:33 PM
Temporary hitpoints that last 10 min yet are easily gone in one hit even at max level (100+25*8 = 300 currently)? With a 30 sec cooldown? And it's Tier 5? I can tell you right now, it'll be as useful as +tumble would be as a tier 5 enhancement. It's very, very poor for tier 5. The way it stands now, it would be incredibly lackluster even at tier 1 (but it may have uses then as it wouldn't lock you out of other tier 5's in other trees).

Hey! Depending on how much tumble it was I'D get it, would not be worthless. Currently with around 100 tumble you can tumble through shallow water faster than people can do that little jump FF through it!

cru121
06-08-2015, 03:39 PM
I can live with Brilliance. The T5 seems rather weak. I recommend to get rid of it and add some DPS here instead.

Tom116
06-08-2015, 03:44 PM
We’re currently planning to add the following abilities:

Tier 4 (replacing CMW SLA):


Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with Temporary HP equal 10+(Warlock Level) every time it ticks. These Temporary HP stack with all sources other than Brilliance itself.


Tier 5 (replacing Break Forth):


Shining Through: (Target: Self) Gain 100 Temporary HP which last for ten minutes. Each Epic level adds an additional +25. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)


We’re very interested in making sure these abilities are worth investing in, and would appreciate your feedback on them. Power of Enlightenment: Positive was on a multiselector with the Light version; our current plan is to leave the Light version on its own. On a separate note, we’ve made some adjustments to the last two Core abilities of Enlightened Spirit:

Previously:


Level 18: Spirit Armor: When your Eldritch Aura is active, each time you are hit by an attack, you gain a stack of Spirit Armor. (Spirit Armor: +1 stacking PRR and MRR. Stacks up to 20 times.) Passive: Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.



Level 20: Celestial Spirit: +2 CON, +2 CHA.Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage, and you gain 10 Melee Power, Ranged Power, and Universal Spell Power.


New:


Level 18: Celestial Spirit: Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage. Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.



Level 20: Ultimate Enlightenment: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Celestial Spirit is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.



I do like the new cores, they look pretty nice. I'm not a fan of the lack of self-healing available now though. Temp HP doesn't really mean much when mobs are hitting for 150+hp per swing, and in light/medium armor it will likely be more than that. Seems like you just pretty much locked everyone into Soul Eater T4 Steal Lifeforce...less excited for Warlock now :/

Wongar
06-08-2015, 04:26 PM
In this case, the abilities Break Forth, Cure Moderate Wounds SLA, and Power of Enlightenment: Positive have been removed from the Enlightened Spirit tree. We recognize that many (most?) of you like these abilities, and their removal creates some questions about survivability of Warlocks, especially ones primarily in this tree.


We’re currently planning to add the following abilities:

Tier 4 (replacing CMW SLA):


Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with Temporary HP equal 10+(Warlock Level) every time it ticks. These Temporary HP stack with all sources other than Brilliance itself.


Tier 5 (replacing Break Forth):


Shining Through: (Target: Self) Gain 100 Temporary HP which last for ten minutes. Each Epic level adds an additional +25. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)


We’re very interested in making sure these abilities are worth investing in, and would appreciate your feedback on them. Power of Enlightenment: Positive was on a multiselector with the Light version; our current plan is to leave the Light version on its own. On a separate note, we’ve made some adjustments to the last two Core abilities of Enlightened Spirit:


I am also very disappointed to see these removed.

Temporary HP equal 10+(Warlock Level) every aura tick is not close to the potential of the CMW SLA on a short timer. With an investment in Healing Amp and Spellpower a melee Warlock would have been able to stand in a fight long enough for the aura to tick and do some damage. I'm afraid getting 30 temp hit points every 2 seconds will do very little to help when comparing against the amount of incoming damage in Epics. Being an AOE that affects others is nice but won't help the Warlock survive.

Shining Through seems like a nice ability for heroics but again I feel it will be lacking in Epics. It does not seem to compare well with Cocoon (available to everyone, heals, and uses Empower Heal / Healing Amp) so don't see it worthy of a Tier 5, especially with twice the cooldown.

Is it possible to consider having Healing Amp and/or Spellpower affect these so that a Warlock wanting to make an investment in self healing could do so? As is, I just don't see these giving a melee Warlock near enough self healing to be able to stand in an EE fight for long.


My suggestion would be to make Shining Through a False Life SLA. For example:

Shining Through (False Life SLA): Provides 2d6+4 plus 1 per caster level (Maximum caster level 10.) temp hit points.
- Temp hit points scale with healing Amp
- Metamagic: Extend, Empower, Maximize, Quicken
Give it the same cool down and spell point costs per AP as the CMW SLA had. Basically just like the CMW SLA but giving Tmp HP instead of healing.

This would still not be as powerful as the CMW SLA because you could not apply Empower Healing (nor get actual healing) and would give a very different feel being Temp HP v healing. Given the lack of actual healing, I don't know if this would be enough for a melee Warlock to stand in a fight but I think it is a good start.

If you had something like the Superior False Life SLA above, then I think that the Brilliance ability would be OK at Tier 4. Maybe give some healing AMP to the Aura with the ability

Lastly - if removing one of the Tier 5 abilities there is room to add 1!.
This is a melee tree, can we get a fun, useful melee attack at Tier 5. Something as simple as an active attack adding you Blast Damage to your swing on a relatively short cooldown would add a lot to making it more interesting to play.

Delacroix21
06-08-2015, 04:44 PM
Tier 4 (replacing CMW SLA):


Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with Temporary HP equal 10+(Warlock Level) every time it ticks. These Temporary HP stack with all sources other than Brilliance itself.



[/LIST]



New:


Level 18: Celestial Spirit: Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage. Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.



Level 20: Ultimate Enlightenment: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Celestial Spirit is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.



I like the 2 new abilities at level 18 and 20, but brilliance adding temp HP? That really stinks. Temp HP is preety worthless in DDO now due to how hard mobs hit in EE. When mobs hit for 200+ damage in EE you arent going to notice a 170 damage swing every 2 seconds (as multiple mobs attack much faster). If this was a heal it would be great as at least it could top you off in between battles (but still require a alternate source of healing) but its not. Frankly as temp hp it truly does suck.

Trillea
06-08-2015, 05:05 PM
I like the 2 new abilities at level 18 and 20, but brilliance adding temp HP? That really stinks. Temp HP is preety worthless in DDO now due to how hard mobs hit in EE. When mobs hit for 200+ damage in EE you arent going to notice a 170 damage swing every 2 seconds (as multiple mobs attack much faster). If this was a heal it would be great as at least it could top you off in between battles (but still require a alternate source of healing) but its not. Frankly as temp hp it truly does suck.

I have always thought that 1/4 to 1/2 of all temp HP should work as real healing if you were below max HP. Now would be a great time to implement it.

HatsuharuZ
06-08-2015, 05:35 PM
Tier 5 (replacing Break Forth):

Shining Through: (Target: Self) Gain 100 Temporary HP which last for ten minutes. Each Epic level adds an additional +25. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)



I have an issue with temporary healing amplification. You never know when you will need healing amp, and I do not think that *temporary* healing amp is a good choice for a 5th tier enhancement. Now, passive healing amp would be more useful, and can be used even when/if one can't use the active portion of "Shining Through".

Sebastrd
06-08-2015, 05:54 PM
I love the new cores. Now I'm really conflicted on whether or not to splash. I also like the idea of swapping the Power of Enlightenment multiselector to pact damage type.

Obviously, I'm sorry to see Brilliance isn't getting much love. Perhaps it should be 2x Warlock level?

Red_Knight
06-08-2015, 06:34 PM
Gonna have to go with others on the head scratching "Huh" in regard to the new T5. I've been liking breath forth as an oh crud button that helps against neg levels (my bane). But at the same time I can understand that the two SLA were a bit too strong. I mean, under geared, under leveled, and I just waded through the temple of elemental evil on epic normal, at level 25, because of the cure moderate wounds SLA's not charging SP at tier 3. And when things got really hairy, I had a second heal that was just as strong. So maybe they were a tad too good.

Those two were being planned for every build regardless of my intentions after all.

I do like the replacement for the T4. And the revamp of cores sounds good too. Spirit Armor wasn't something I really liked much. The idea of being tougher to kill the more you get hurt sounds good in theory. In practice, it wasn't working so well.

Fnordian
06-08-2015, 06:35 PM
It goes at the same rate/time as your Eldritch Aura; in next Lamannia that'll be every 5/4/3/2 seconds, depending on how many Cores you have from this tree.


How about an additional one second reduction in rate if not making physical attacks? (It could still be capped at a minimum of two seconds, if required.)

Or if that's not practical to code, perhaps if you don't have a weapon in either of your hands (wands and scrolls shouldn't interfere but any melee, hand wraps, thrown or bow-type weapons would).

The higher aura rate could make certain tactics more viable, like a heavily spell-casting support Warlock, or a Warlock Tank and since your overall damage output will generally be lower than a Warlock fighting with weapons too, it shouldn't be unbalanced.

Game_Whino
06-08-2015, 06:54 PM
Seems like you just pretty much locked everyone into Soul Eater T4 Steal Lifeforce...less excited for Warlock now :/

To be fair, most will probably roll as bladeforged warlocks and do an 18/2 split or use a +1 heart.

Mast3rR0b
06-08-2015, 06:59 PM
As others said, i must say well done regarding the cores. Right now i'm debating what would be better for my future melee build, staying pure or splash.

AND THIS IS GOOD.

Choices and trade-offs are good for the class, and the game.

Only thing i'm not entirely sure about is the light spellpower increase in the capstone. I wonder if it'd be better being more light damage added instead. Oh well, run your tests and see.



Regarding the t4 and t5, now.

First of all, i have to admit that the temp HP mechanic can be fitting for an Enlightened Spirit, living on borrowed life force and so on. It's just that it's a really weak mechanic.

Brilliance can be a nice defensive buff ON TOP of an existing healing/survivability, but it can't be the only defensive mean. Shining Through could be nice in heroics, but it has too long a cooldown to be truly relevant, and it doesn't scale well enough in epics. 300 HPs at level 28 will most likely vanish with a single strike.

I don't know, maybe these abilities combined with those of the Soul Eater tree will be able to get the job done, though i admit i doubt it. Maybe tweak the numbers? I don't know if it'd be the right approach, or if it could be enough.

I guess we'll see


EDIT: yes, unfortunately right now going Bladeforged seems the best thing to do.. Which is sad, since i would have never considered it with CMW SLA. Honestly, i have to make a plea here, try not to forget the fleshy!

Violith
06-08-2015, 06:59 PM
The temp HP Abilities definately need a way to scale better, since this is the melee tree, perhaps like a % based on melee/ranged power similiar to the barb's enhancements.

SealedInSong
06-08-2015, 07:20 PM
I do like the new cores, they look pretty nice. I'm not a fan of the lack of self-healing available now though. Temp HP doesn't really mean much when mobs are hitting for 150+hp per swing, and in light/medium armor it will likely be more than that. Seems like you just pretty much locked everyone into Soul Eater T4 Steal Lifeforce...less excited for Warlock now :/

The core changes make ES a lot more competitive, nice job.

ELDRITCH KNIGHT TEMP HP, TEMP HP IN GENERAL

Take a look at player feedback regarding EK and temp hp across the forums. Generally, people regard it to be an actual waste of Enhancement points. That's bad design.

If it were at least consider something attractive to some builds, that would be good; temp hp effects are typically considered a trap. That is not good.

T5 CURE SLA

I think it would make a lot more sense to have ES have REAL healing in their T5. That way, instead of the current situation that Tom mentioned, where every Warlock that can be healed with positive energy (read: not a pale master splash) is essentially required to go for Souleater, Warlocks also have the choice to go for T5 ES.

For comparison, think about Barbarians and Blood Strength. Blood Strength is so head and shoulders above the other T5 healing in Barbarian trees that Ravager is the de facto T5 barbarian tree. Again, bad design.

ALTERNATIVE

At the very least, make Shining Through some kind of real healing. If you're in love with temp HP distinguishing warlocks from other "straightforward healing" classes, give them some kind of heroic Rejuvenation Cocoon ability. I.e., allow them to heal themselves over time provided their temp hp persists.

Don't saddle Enlightened Spirits with a totally subpar self-healing route the way you did Eldritch Knights. It's not good for build diversity.

Slasheboy
06-08-2015, 09:05 PM
With the removal of Power of Enlightened: Positive, will we still have Power of Enlightened: Light, or is the whole enhancement gone all together?

I'm quite conflicted on the changes so far. With the removal of both the SLA and break forth, we completely lose any form of self healing, as well 1/2 of the reason to pick maximize/empower. Its rather disheartening considering we're losing the more useful abilities of the tree rather than the ones very few of us care about (*cough* summons line *cough*)

I would beg for a compromise of a heal of some sort, like replacing Brilliance with Warpriest's Ameliorating Strike proc, procing once every aura pulse, since Brilliance scales really badly (no SP or heal amp increases it, or stats boosts either), while being inferior compared to Tainted Scholar's Tier 1 Stanch. Do take in mind the Amelioratinig Strike double/triple/quadruple procs on doublestrike, offhand strikes and offhand doublestrikes, so don't overnerf it for procing it once every 5/4/3/2 seconds, like a half-powered ameliorating aura should be just about right. (1d2 per 2 character level, no lesser restoration). Do remember we are living in a post-champion DDO, with champs in lvl 7 elite quests one-shot critting for 140hp.

Either that, or give brilliance a mass cure light wound effect as well. Do consider that this MCLW can't be empowered or maximized unlike the CMW SLA, so it can't do the in-battle healing/ Emergency heal that the CMW SLA used to provide.


Shining through, once again, needs more work as well, especially considering this is a T5 which does not scale at all in the heroics, due to lack of spellpower/heal amp effects on temp HP. Once again, the Stanch comparison (Tainted Scholar, t1) makes it look weak (stanch + False life gave 40 temp health at 15 sp with 2.5 sec cooldown), since 30 secs is waaay to long to hold 100 temp hp.

Otherwise, I have nothing but praise for the changes in the core.



Thanks for all your hard work Steelstar. Keep yp the good fight!

Ayseifn
06-08-2015, 09:18 PM
How does the temp HP of these warlock abilities work with Cocoon?

If I use Shining Through after Cocoon is that now 500HP(level 30 cap numbers) to chew through before it stops ticking heals, can I cast Shining Through before Cocoon and have the same result with the added benefit of the +25% H amp?

decease
06-08-2015, 09:19 PM
enlighten spirit have many ways of self healing.. removing them is not wise.

they definitely not the best healer..but they capable at healing at least...(in pnp we don't have thousand of health.. most player only have 40~60 health)


http://s1.postimg.org/nelg3dt9r/image.jpg
quote from complete mage hand book

p.s. not sure which source you listen to.. but if you don't listen to people who play the game who else would you listen?

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461247-Warlock-Class-Full-Revamp-suggestion?p=5628232#post5628232

Systern
06-08-2015, 09:41 PM
We’re currently planning to add the following abilities:

Tier 4 (replacing CMW SLA):


Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with Temporary HP equal 10+(Warlock Level) every time it ticks. These Temporary HP stack with all sources other than Brilliance itself.



Eliminates incapacitation as a game mechanic. You're either alive, or dead. If you're ever merely incapacitated, next tick will pop you back on your feet in almost all scenarios (multiclass w/ Die Harder being the possible exception).



Tier 5 (replacing Break Forth):


Shining Through: (Target: Self) Gain 100 Temporary HP which last for ten minutes. Each Epic level adds an additional +25. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)



Temp HP doesn't stack, correct? +500hp cocoon sounds OP... +350hp cocoon still sounds OP.






Level 18: Celestial Spirit: Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage. Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.




So Wraith mode + 3d6 Light damage/2sec... Wraith mode on it's own seems a little weak (I forget where it is in the PM tree. Level 6?). +7.5 average damage/2 seconds on its own sounds under-powered for a core 18 ability. I'd have to look into how much Light Spell power a typical level 18 character can get to see how much that gets modified.





Level 20: Ultimate Enlightenment: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Celestial Spirit is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.


I'm assuming it's still a toggle, and the "While your Celestial Spirit" rider is a mistake not referring to the new name. (Otherwise a capstone that only does +2 cha, +2 con would be weeeeeeeeeeeak :))
If this is still a toggle, why would anyone ever turn it off? If it's not, the whole rider needs to go for clarity.
As a passive +20% HP, +5 PRR (from the BAB bump), and +power to melee and spell damage... it reads that it's just unilateral power in all categories... Survivability, Damage, and DCs. This capstone is just as desirable to the other enhancement trees. I can see putting 41 AP in this tree, and the other 39 in Tainted/Eater and still run around pew-pewing everything; content that +1 DC and +10 USP and all that survivability is fine for EE content. Most capstones are a lot of one thing; This is just a moderate amount of everything.

Steelstar
06-08-2015, 09:41 PM
The lack of any real scaling via heal amp or spellpower compared to the positive spells is a massive downgrade in terms of actual usefulness, perhaps allow them to scale with healamp?

That's a fair point. We're going to try and make these two abilities (as written here) scale with Healing Amp.


I have an issue with temporary healing amplification. You never know when you will need healing amp, and I do not think that *temporary* healing amp is a good choice for a 5th tier enhancement. Now, passive healing amp would be more useful, and can be used even when/if one can't use the active portion of "Shining Through".

The ability directly to its left in the tree, Beacon, is a decent-sized passive healing amp enhancement, and stacks with this temporary buff.


EDIT: yes, unfortunately right now going Bladeforged seems the best thing to do.. Which is sad, since i would have never considered it with CMW SLA. Honestly, i have to make a plea here, try not to forget the fleshy!

Trying not to forget the fleshies here at all! Though we do get where you're coming from - The removal of positive healing does put a big advantage in the mechanical corner. As said above, we're going to have these Temporary HP scale with Healing (and not Repair) amp, we'll take a look and see if it needs to be adjusted further.



I think it would make a lot more sense to have ES have REAL healing in their T5.
Agreed! Unfortunately, that can't happen here. Temporary HP isn't everyone's first choice for healing, but we're trying to make these abilities strong enough to make up for that.


With the removal of Power of Enlightened: Positive, will we still have Power of Enlightened: Light, or is the whole enhancement gone all together?
Yes, you'll still have the Light version.


How does the temp HP of these warlock abilities work with Cocoon?

If I use Shining Through after Cocoon is that now 500HP(level 30 cap numbers) to chew through before it stops ticking heals, can I cast Shining Through before Cocoon and have the same result with the added benefit of the +25% H amp?
Tenatively (subject to change!), I want to say "Yes". Right now, these two abilities are Sacred and Determination bonuses to Temporary HP, which stack with all other currently-existing sources; they'll stack with Cocoon, and if you chain Shining/Cocoon, the latter should benefit from the extra healing amp.

decease
06-08-2015, 09:53 PM
That's a fair point. We're going to try and make these two abilities (as written here) scale with Healing Amp.


healing scale off two ways, first spell power. then heal amp... plus after reading complete mage i don't see anywhere that this class have any ability of creating temp shield.. they do have healing though...

Ayseifn
06-08-2015, 10:00 PM
Tenatively (subject to change!), I want to say "Yes". Right now, these two abilities are Sacred and Determination bonuses to Temporary HP, which stack with all other currently-existing sources; they'll stack with Cocoon, and if you chain Shining/Cocoon, the latter should benefit from the extra healing amp.

Sounds ok to me on paper, Druids get their really nice healing DoTs that don't worry about temp HP to keep you going so having Warlocks with a better cocoon might be similarly powerful but differing in flavour.

Ziindarax
06-08-2015, 10:41 PM
Are you aware that, in-game (on Orien at least), the consensus is that Warlock is considered a garbage class for it's:

1. Squishiness - d4 instead of d6 is a bit odd.

2. Weaker DPS - in my own testing, I've found that about the only good destiny that works for Warlock damage is Shiradi - Magister might be nice for the DC, but even then, low spell-pool makes it not viable.

3. Supposedly poorer DC's - I say supposedly because some claim Warlock has higher DC's, while others say that the DC is better.

Here are my thoughts on Enlightened Spirit given your proposed changes -

I like that someone else suggested adding 7d6 more light damage in the capstone core, but what if we could do this, as well:

- Add 1d6 light damage that does an extra 1d4 damage against undead, evil outsiders, and aberrations per core? or

- add 5% healing amplification per core, and effects which confer temporary hitpoints grant an additional 10% per core taken (this bonus would also scale with healing amp if the capstone is taken). So a pure warlock would gain from cocoon - 225 + healing amp (or a percentage thereof).


Another thought would be - why not add an Eladrin pact somewhere down the road, and have them add healing spells to the Warlock's spellbook? A full heal, or Greater Regeneration wouldn't be completely unreasonable, and the pact damage could be based on dealing either good damage, or electricity damage?


Taking things even further, could it be possible to add a warlock/artificer Destiny that gives a twistable cure moderate sla, or Break Forth? Just food for thought.


Now, about Soul eater: Would it be possible to add a blast essence that gives a 10% chance to grant a vampirism effect per cast of eldritch blast?



That's a fair point. We're going to try and make these two abilities (as written here) scale with Healing Amp.



The ability directly to its left in the tree, Beacon, is a decent-sized passive healing amp enhancement, and stacks with this temporary buff.



Trying not to forget the fleshies here at all! Though we do get where you're coming from - The removal of positive healing does put a big advantage in the mechanical corner. As said above, we're going to have these Temporary HP scale with Healing (and not Repair) amp, we'll take a look and see if it needs to be adjusted further.


Agreed! Unfortunately, that can't happen here. Temporary HP isn't everyone's first choice for healing, but we're trying to make these abilities strong enough to make up for that.


Yes, you'll still have the Light version.


Tenatively (subject to change!), I want to say "Yes". Right now, these two abilities are Sacred and Determination bonuses to Temporary HP, which stack with all other currently-existing sources; they'll stack with Cocoon, and if you chain Shining/Cocoon, the latter should benefit from the extra healing amp.

Rhysem
06-08-2015, 11:08 PM
Level 18: Celestial Spirit: Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage. Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.



Level 20: Ultimate Enlightenment: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Celestial Spirit is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.


These are gold. Before they were largely easy to ignore -- especially the 18 one. 17 lock/3 bard was compelling -- now you'd really want that level 18 lock. Good. The top tier's +20% max hp and full bab rounds a melee out nicely and feels somewhat compelling to stay pure.




Tier 4 (replacing CMW SLA):


Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with Temporary HP equal 10+(Warlock Level) every time it ticks. These Temporary HP stack with all sources other than Brilliance itself.


Tier 5 (replacing Break Forth):


Shining Through: (Target: Self) Gain 100 Temporary HP which last for ten minutes. Each Epic level adds an additional +25. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)



And these are pyrite. Aura temp HP -- at low levels, it refreshes so slowly as to be largely useless (you'd get more out of bodyfeeder on almost anybody, that doesn't cost talent points and it doesn't have a cooldown (as fast as you crit, which on something like a swashie... yeah...)). At high (epic) levels, 30 hp means nothing. bodyfeeder would be all the rage if this was going to be good, and I haven't seen it being all the rage.

Shining Through -- its like you want it to be useful in epic, because of the +25, but in EN (and probably EH) you don't need it, and in EE where you might need it, it isn't enough / is up too little / is too situational for a T5.

Also very sad to lose things that like empower/maximize/emp heal -- feels like that was a nice unique mechanic, now lost.


For a how to fix proposal -- chain Spritual Retribution off Eldritch Blast (and possibly chain Spiritual to Spirit Blast?) -- it isn't related to the aura, it doesn't belong at the top of the aura chain. Move Beacon (the +hamp aura in T5) down into T4 at the top of the aura chain. Yes it is hamp -- so what? There's 20 hamp available in the human tree at the tier before, and 30 hamp at the same tier -- or the hamp barb cores coat them with. Then merge both CMW/Break Forth into a new T5 at the top of the aura chain and call it "guarded by light." Guarded gives +20 absorb (think stoneskin/ablative armor) per tick, stacks up to 100 absorb, a stack expires every X seconds if outside the aura. Now it may not save you from the hit, but it is at least always somewhat useful. Bonus points if you could make it stack up to 50 * light spell power absorb or such, so that it could actually scale up to take a hit or two when fully-charged in EE.

If you didn't want to slot Beacon into the aura at T4, think about something like bonus spell power instead (light, positive, force/physical, and pact-SP (multi-selector based on pact?), or some set therein)? Alternately, something to pulse to replicate the undo-stat-damage, undo-neg-lev parts of Break Fourth?


I think you could do some good, balanced, interesting and thematic things replacing the cure clones... but temp HP ain't it.

PS: don't hold me to numbers about "guarded by light" -- they're off the cuff for illustrative purposes.

Shoemaker
06-08-2015, 11:23 PM
Are you aware that, in-game (on Orien at least), the consensus is that Warlock is considered a garbage class for it's:

1. Squishiness - d4 instead of d6 is a bit odd.

2. Weaker DPS - in my own testing, I've found that about the only good destiny that works for Warlock damage is Shiradi - Magister might be nice for the DC, but even then, low spell-pool makes it not viable.

3. Supposedly poorer DC's - I say supposedly because some claim Warlock has higher DC's, while others say that the DC is better.

Here are my thoughts on Enlightened Spirit given your proposed changes -

I like that someone else suggested adding 7d6 more light damage in the capstone core, but what if we could do this, as well:

- Add 1d6 light damage that does an extra 1d4 damage against undead, evil outsiders, and aberrations per core? or

- add 5% healing amplification per core, and effects which confer temporary hitpoints grant an additional 10% per core taken (this bonus would also scale with healing amp if the capstone is taken). So a pure warlock would gain from cocoon - 225 + healing amp (or a percentage thereof).


Another thought would be - why not add an Eladrin pact somewhere down the road, and have them add healing spells to the Warlock's spellbook? A full heal, or Greater Regeneration wouldn't be completely unreasonable, and the pact damage could be based on dealing either good damage, or electricity damage?


Taking things even further, could it be possible to add a warlock/artificer Destiny that gives a twistable cure moderate sla, or Break Forth? Just food for thought.


Now, about Soul eater: Would it be possible to add a blast essence that gives a 10% chance to grant a vampirism effect per cast of eldritch blast?


D4 was a first build Lama bug, 2nd build is D6.

Xerio
06-08-2015, 11:28 PM
hmm Could healing spells be used in place of those pesky dance spells for the fey pact?
Warlock has a rather limited supply of CC spells in the PnP spell table and as previous mentioned by another poster they do have healing in the ole books.

Seems silly to cripple them in such a way, if the aura temp hp in hell bent to stay any chance that it could incorporate a light spell dmg on break?
As is, pointed out several times now, the temp hp is going to be neigh on useless once you are out of heroics (it'll get chipped away fast in heroic elites too with the slower refresh rate). So if it is going to stay at such a low number make it a literal brilliance that explodes into shiny pain (light spell dmg) 1d4+2 per 2 warlock levels? At least then you'll be taking em out with ya!

Rhysem
06-08-2015, 11:34 PM
Trying not to forget the fleshies here at all! Though we do get where you're coming from - The removal of positive healing does put a big advantage in the mechanical corner. As said above, we're going to have these Temporary HP scale with Healing (and not Repair) amp, we'll take a look and see if it needs to be adjusted further.

Not that what I proposed was any better for fleshies vs robots, but I don't see how hamp makes it any less good for bladeforged -- or does their negative hamp decrease it? Because if it does decrease with robot hamp penalty, what you did instead is make warforged more of a trap than it already is.

Lorianna
06-08-2015, 11:40 PM
The new 18th and 20th level cores are really quite nice. I was terribly torn about the idea of going 18/2 warlock/rogue before, since the capstone was so incredibly useful. But with it moved to 18th, the 18/2 build is becoming more tempting. The new capstone is really nice, as well, however.

Unfortunately, the removal of the healing abilities from the tree kind of kills it for me. Temporary hp just gets erased WAY too easily in epics (even just epic hard, not to mention EE), which is a massive blow to the survivability of the enlightened spirit tree. 300 temp hp every 30 seconds just won't cut it, when it'll get knocked out in the first second or two of any decent fight, leaving you scrambling around trying to dump aggro.

I guess I'll just wait to see what the soul eater tree has in store.

GeoffWatson
06-09-2015, 03:53 AM
Removing the healing options makes Enlightened Spirit a lot less interesting (at least for my first planned Warlock. It may have potential for other builds).

Brilliance is much much worse than actual healing.

Looks like I'll have to use UMD Scroll healing. Which is annoying with equipment swapping.
Or I could be the stupid ugly overpowered bladeforged like all the powergamers. Boring!

KaVaYo
06-09-2015, 05:16 AM
What about Life Stealer? 3Tiers, on Tier 1, 30 SP, deals 1d(x) per (y) warlock levels up to level (z) elemental damage to an enemy and transforms 1/3 of the damage dealt into positive/repair heal. On Tier 2 20 SP 1/2 of damage is transformed and on tier 3 15 SP 100% damage is transformed. This will be affected by possitive/repair amp.

This with fine tunning numbers, of course :)

Dalsheel
06-09-2015, 07:51 AM
Temporary hitpoints that last 10 min yet are easily gone in one hit even at max level (100+25*8 = 300 currently)? With a 30 sec cooldown? And it's Tier 5? I can tell you right now, it'll be as useful as +tumble would be as a tier 5 enhancement. It's very, very poor for tier 5. The way it stands now, it would be incredibly lackluster even at tier 1 (but it may have uses then as it wouldn't lock you out of other tier 5's in other trees).

^This!

PS: The way I see these changes is simply -4 AP needed in this tree. They removed useful things and replaced them with something nobody will ever use. May as well leave these spots on the tree blank.

ThomasHunter
06-09-2015, 08:34 AM
I am still hoping that you (Steelstar) and the team are discussing the possible addition of CHR to damage as it would really create some fun variety. I did like some of the suggestions of potentially limiting it to certain weapons (simple?). I think NOT adding this would be a real shame though.

I think your initial negative point was taking away from PDK, however, if you don't have those specific weapons overlap, you're good! Also, you've then expanded potential builds.

Yes, I think this would be a big deal and would make the class more fun (particularly this tree).

Thanks for the consideration,
Nervous in Wisconsin:D

Steelstar
06-09-2015, 08:51 AM
Temporary hp just gets erased WAY too easily in epics (even just epic hard, not to mention EE)

I have heard this from a number of sources. Temporary HP are erased at the same rate as regular HP*; they just get used before your regular HP do. 300 Temporary HP provides the same amount of mitigation as 300 regular HP does - Exactly 300 points. Yes, it disappears quickly; so do regular hitpoints. In terms of raw mitigation, there is no difference between Temporary and Non-Temporary HP.

The primary difference, as many of you pointed out, is that Temporary HP numbers don't get as high as regular healing numbers, mostly due to Spell Power and Healing Amplification. We're going to have these numbers scale with Healing Amplification, and if the base numbers still need to be higher to provide the kind of mitigation Warlocks need, we'll do that.

Will you still need external healing sources? Yes. There are potions, wands, scrolls (which Warlocks get a lot of UMD to use), and other players. But it isn't true that Temporary HP can't be a meaningful source of mitigation, provided the right balance and numbers, which is what we're looking to do here.


*Many Temp HP abilities have short/limited durations; these Warlock abilities are 10 minutes. The number is sort of arbitrary, you're more than likely going to use them before that 10 minutes passes.

Wongar
06-09-2015, 09:01 AM
*Many Temp HP abilities have short/limited durations; these Warlock abilities are 10 minutes. The number is sort of arbitrary, you're more than likely going to use them before that 10 minutes passes.

And this is the main part of the problem as I see it - the temp HP will be gone and with the long cooldown of Shining Through you can not replenish them very quickly. Can we consider shortening the cooldown on Shining Through?

Steelstar
06-09-2015, 09:05 AM
And this is the main part of the problem as I see it - the temp HP will be gone and with the long cooldown of Shining Through you can not replenish them very quickly. Can we consider shortening the cooldown on Shining Through?

It's currently a 30 second cooldown, and includes a 20 second Healing Amp buff. We may be able to shorten the cooldown, but we'd probably shorten the buff too.

Requiro
06-09-2015, 09:11 AM
You didn't miss any negative comments about it; forums were generally positive about them.

As we said, we get feedback during this stage from a variety of sources, not just forums/in-game; in this case, such feedback required we remove these abilities.


(…) Sometimes, certain kinds of feedback require us to heavily change or remove certain abilities

Well… I guess that someone outside forums/in-game, don’t like positive abilities in Evil-based class Warlock. I can truly understand this. But, can you consider changes in T4 ability, for something that is not connected with Eldritch Aura only? Maybe multi-selector? The other selectable ability could be one of:
• You gain Bodyfeeder ability with your Eldritch Blast, and Demonic Shield with Light armor.
• You gain Soul Eating ability with your Eldritch Blast, and Demonic Shield with Light armor.
• You gain Temporary Hit Point with critical hits with your Eldritch Blast. Temporary HP: 10+(2*Warlock level), and Demonic Shield with Light armor.

OR something similar. But you know what I mean.

Suggestions for T5 ability: Each Epic level reduce SP cost by 1 (on level 28 and more Epic level this ability is for free)

Changes in Core abilities – great news.

Wongar
06-09-2015, 09:18 AM
It's currently a 30 second cooldown, and includes a 20 second Healing Amp buff. We may be able to shorten the cooldown, but we'd probably shorten the buff too.

Personally, I would give up the buff for a shorter cooldown. The temp HP can be useful but, but you need to be able to refresh them if they are to compete with real HP. 30 seconds feels like an an eternity in most fights. Real HP can be replenished on demand from a number of sources - the temp HP are much morel limited.

cru121
06-09-2015, 09:18 AM
Could Shining Through gain also some additional (offensive?) effect?
* Blinding enemies for a short duration (no save)
* Granting temporary concealment would work, but the tree already has displace SLA
* Dealing light burst damage would work, but the tree already has such abilities
* Perhaps giving mobs in AoE some vulnerability to Light damage?

FuzzyDuck81
06-09-2015, 09:25 AM
Could Shining Through gain also some additional (offensive?) effect?
* Granting temporary concealment would work, but the tree already has displace SLA


Call it "dazzling glare" & have it work in the same way cloud concealment works, ie. not mitigated by trueseeing?

J2345678
06-09-2015, 10:01 AM
T5 Shining Through: (Target: Self) Gain 100 Temporary HP which last for ten minutes. Each Epic level adds an additional +25. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)



It's currently a 30 second cooldown, and includes a 20 second Healing Amp buff.
We may be able to shorten the cooldown, but we'd probably shorten the buff too.

How about removing the 20 second buff and making the cooldown a standard spell cooldown?

btolson
06-09-2015, 10:04 AM
I have heard this from a number of sources. Temporary HP are erased at the same rate as regular HP*; they just get used before your regular HP do. 300 Temporary HP provides the same amount of mitigation as 300 regular HP does - Exactly 300 points. Yes, it disappears quickly; so do regular hitpoints. In terms of raw mitigation, there is no difference between Temporary and Non-Temporary HP.

The issue is throughput, which you could rephrase as HPS (healing per second).

The Cure SLA had great potential throughput; assuming metamagics, ~200 positive spellpower, 0 healing amp, and 0% positive crit chance, then its 3-sec cooldown would have offered around 40 healing per second even before level 20. Characters more deeply invested in heal amp, positive spellpower & crit chance & critical multipliers would have seen far more than that.

This new ability is starting from 3.33 healing per second (at <= L20) or 10 healing per second (at cap). It will scale with heal amp, but not spellpower, crit chance, or crit multipliers. Even at cap it is starting at roughly 25% strength of the cure SLA and does not have nearly as much room to grow due to fewer scaling mechanics.

That's the main issue with the new ability.

Beyond that it doesn't matter too much whether I am healing real HP or temp HP, because it's just a matter of focusing on keeping my temp HP > 0 instead of my real HP > 0.

Drwaz99
06-09-2015, 10:23 AM
I have heard this from a number of sources. Temporary HP are erased at the same rate as regular HP*; they just get used before your regular HP do. 300 Temporary HP provides the same amount of mitigation as 300 regular HP does - Exactly 300 points. Yes, it disappears quickly; so do regular hitpoints. In terms of raw mitigation, there is no difference between Temporary and Non-Temporary HP.

The primary difference, as many of you pointed out, is that Temporary HP numbers don't get as high as regular healing numbers, mostly due to Spell Power and Healing Amplification. We're going to have these numbers scale with Healing Amplification, and if the base numbers still need to be higher to provide the kind of mitigation Warlocks need, we'll do that.

Will you still need external healing sources? Yes. There are potions, wands, scrolls (which Warlocks get a lot of UMD to use), and other players. But it isn't true that Temporary HP can't be a meaningful source of mitigation, provided the right balance and numbers, which is what we're looking to do here.


*Many Temp HP abilities have short/limited durations; these Warlock abilities are 10 minutes. The number is sort of arbitrary, you're more than likely going to use them before that 10 minutes passes.

That's all fine and dandy, but at tier 5, it's still lackluster. Tier 5 should be good. This one isn't.

Mahatu
06-09-2015, 10:30 AM
The issue is throughput, which you could rephrase as HPS (healing per second).

The Cure SLA had great potential throughput; assuming metamagics, ~200 positive spellpower, 0 healing amp, and 0% positive crit chance, then its 3-sec cooldown would have offered around 40 healing per second even before level 20. Characters more deeply invested in heal amp, positive spellpower & crit chance & critical multipliers would have seen far more than that.

This new ability is starting from 3.33 healing per second (at <= L20) or 10 healing per second (at cap). It will scale with heal amp, but not spellpower, crit chance, or crit multipliers. Even at cap it is starting at roughly 25% strength of the cure SLA and does not have nearly as much room to grow due to fewer scaling mechanics.

That's the main issue with the new ability.

Beyond that it doesn't matter too much whether I am healing real HP or temp HP, because it's just a matter of focusing on keeping my temp HP > 0 instead of my real HP > 0.

I feel this is a very important point to be made.

I would also very much like to point out that scroll healing is alright in heroics, but it is absolutely not viable in epics, particularly epic elite and high end epics. There is not enough concentration available to casters in the game to be able to cast though that damage, which means you can't use the healing when it really matters. Also, similar to what is mentioned above, scroll healing only scales with healing amp and nothing else, making it scale very poorly into high end gameplay.

I am not looking for every class to be able to tank a raid boss or a horde of epic elite mobs, but I would like to see every class to at least have the potential to keep themselves up and going in general questing scenarios.

Chai
06-09-2015, 10:54 AM
Another feat from 3.5


Fiendish Resilience. A warlock can enter a state that lasts for two minutes (20 rounds). While in this state, the warlock gains Fast Healing 2.

Fast healing works as a stack-able feat, where each grants 1 HP per round healed. If a creature has fast healing 3, it gets back 3 HP at the beginning of its turn.

If this was autogranted at 1/1 levels, Warlock would have fast healing 20 at level 20 (20 hp per tick when toggled on) and hAmp could account for the increases. It would likely need a cooldown of something like 2x its duration. Instead of 20 rounds, make it 20 seconds. 20 HP per second affected by heal amp, then a 40 second cooldown afterward, at level 20+

This also scales nicely at low levels. In waterworks at level 5, the hp return would be 5/second on a 5th level warlock.

This would be more of an out of battle recovery item and would not be relied on to carry the healing load through the thick part of the encounter where the warlock is more of a striker.

Call the DDO version Fiendish Recovery (to prevent confusion with the Fiendish Resilience name already being used in DDO)

Madja
06-09-2015, 11:01 AM
The issue is throughput, which you could rephrase as HPS (healing per second).

The Cure SLA had great potential throughput; assuming metamagics, ~200 positive spellpower, 0 healing amp, and 0% positive crit chance, then its 3-sec cooldown would have offered around 40 healing per second even before level 20. Characters more deeply invested in heal amp, positive spellpower & crit chance & critical multipliers would have seen far more than that.

This new ability is starting from 3.33 healing per second (at <= L20) or 10 healing per second (at cap). It will scale with heal amp, but not spellpower, crit chance, or crit multipliers. Even at cap it is starting at roughly 25% strength of the cure SLA and does not have nearly as much room to grow due to fewer scaling mechanics.

That's the main issue with the new ability.

Beyond that it doesn't matter too much whether I am healing real HP or temp HP, because it's just a matter of focusing on keeping my temp HP > 0 instead of my real HP > 0.

To be fair he was comparing Temporary HP to regular HP, not to healing. I completely agree with you, though.

Another problem I see with Temporary healing is that: Say that you have a heal that heals for 100 HP and an ability that grants you 100 Temp HP. If you then get hit for 150, you'll be down 50 HP when using the Temp HP while you could simply throw two heals to fill your HP with a Cure spell. So with Temporary HP your health will slowly (or quickly depending on the difficulty) whittle away.
It's true that you can use wands and scrolls, but for a melee (the focus of this tree) that's just not viable. Then you're left with potions which don't heal for very much. It's fine if all you need to is top of between fights, but with the amount of damage in EE you'll soon be dead if you can't heal during the fight.

I believe that all classes except rogue and fighter have some form of self healing (depending on race) which has removed the need for healers. This makes them hard to find, so we can't really rely on finding a cleric/FvS anymore.

Holymunchkin
06-09-2015, 11:08 AM
Hey, everyone! We wanted to let you know about some upcoming changes in the Enlightened Spirit enhancement tree ahead of them being in Lamannia release notes. As many of you know, Lamannia is an early look at our plans for an update, and during that process, we get feedback from a variety of sources. Sometimes, certain kinds of feedback require us to heavily change or remove certain abilities that have already appeared on Lamannia or in dev posts.


In this case, the abilities Break Forth, Cure Moderate Wounds SLA, and Power of Enlightenment: Positive have been removed from the Enlightened Spirit tree. We recognize that many (most?) of you like these abilities, and their removal creates some questions about survivability of Warlocks, especially ones primarily in this tree.


We’re currently planning to add the following abilities:

Tier 4 (replacing CMW SLA):


Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with Temporary HP equal 10+(Warlock Level) every time it ticks. These Temporary HP stack with all sources other than Brilliance itself.


Tier 5 (replacing Break Forth):


Shining Through: (Target: Self) Gain 100 Temporary HP which last for ten minutes. Each Epic level adds an additional +25. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)


We’re very interested in making sure these abilities are worth investing in, and would appreciate your feedback on them. Power of Enlightenment: Positive was on a multiselector with the Light version; our current plan is to leave the Light version on its own. On a separate note, we’ve made some adjustments to the last two Core abilities of Enlightened Spirit:

Previously:


Level 18: Spirit Armor: When your Eldritch Aura is active, each time you are hit by an attack, you gain a stack of Spirit Armor. (Spirit Armor: +1 stacking PRR and MRR. Stacks up to 20 times.) Passive: Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.



Level 20: Celestial Spirit: +2 CON, +2 CHA.Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage, and you gain 10 Melee Power, Ranged Power, and Universal Spell Power.


New:


Level 18: Celestial Spirit: Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage. Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.



Level 20: Ultimate Enlightenment: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Celestial Spirit is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.


Distribute some capstone benefits in the cores? 5 Mp at 12. 10% of the hp bonus etc

Ayseifn
06-09-2015, 11:44 AM
Temporary hitpoints that last 10 min yet are easily gone in one hit even at max level (100+25*8 = 300 currently)? With a 30 sec cooldown? And it's Tier 5? I can tell you right now, it'll be as useful as +tumble would be as a tier 5 enhancement. It's very, very poor for tier 5. The way it stands now, it would be incredibly lackluster even at tier 1 (but it may have uses then as it wouldn't lock you out of other tier 5's in other trees).

Temp HP that'll super charge rejuv cocoon so that you need to take over 500 HP damage before it'll stop ticking on top of warlocks uber MRR and pretty **** good PRR means it'll probably work better in most scenarios when compared to Druid healing DoTs and you also get a bonus to healing amp too. Honestly, it seems really strong as is.

Drakos
06-09-2015, 12:13 PM
Removing the healing options makes Enlightened Spirit a lot less interesting (at least for my first planned Warlock. It may have potential for other builds).Brilliance is much much worse than actual healing.Looks like I'll have to use UMD Scroll healing. Which is annoying with equipment swapping.Or I could be the stupid ugly overpowered bladeforged like all the powergamers. Boring!Shouldn't need a lot of equipment swapping with UMD as class skill and CHA as primary casting stat.

Drwaz99
06-09-2015, 12:32 PM
Temp HP that'll super charge rejuv cocoon so that you need to take over 500 HP damage before it'll stop ticking on top of warlocks uber MRR and pretty **** good PRR means it'll probably work better in most scenarios when compared to Druid healing DoTs and you also get a bonus to healing amp too. Honestly, it seems really strong as is.

So for it to be really good, you need high MRR, high PRR and cocoon. I'm not asking for it to be stellar but I feel tier 5's need to be good on their own and not contingent many other factors.

And to be honest? 500 hps is gone in one or two hits even with high PRR and MRR. (so in a blink of an eye) and then you have to wait 30 secs. As already pointed out in this thread, wands healing in epics is not practical. You'd have to use a full 50-charge wand to heal once. Scroll healing isn't viable in combat - where you're actually taking damage and need it most (so it's decent for between fights). Potions, the only viable and available in-game options are SF pots but they have major drawbacks and not many people actually get 400 SF favor anymore (and they stack super low and take up a ton of inventory space). The rest are store bought/gold-rolled.

So in practicality there really aren't many, many viable options as Steel eluded to. What he mentions is great on paper but not so much in-game.

Infiltraitor
06-09-2015, 12:32 PM
Healing Amp scaling is fine as is.
Capstone warlock with +200% Hamp is getting 90 temp hp per 2 seconds. Combined with that 300 hp ability (shining through) that scales to 900 temp hp, puts the warlock almost on par with my paladin in physical defenses.

While the warlock may have no magical defenses whatsoever, but against brute force the defensively specced warlock will be about as tough as my paladin.

Rhysem
06-09-2015, 01:27 PM
I have heard this from a number of sources. Temporary HP are erased at the same rate as regular HP*; they just get used before your regular HP do. 300 Temporary HP provides the same amount of mitigation as 300 regular HP does - Exactly 300 points. Yes, it disappears quickly; so do regular hitpoints. In terms of raw mitigation, there is no difference between Temporary and Non-Temporary HP.

Erased yes, replaced no, as other posters have noted. That's part of why I suggested a stacking ablative armor type design instead -- provides the partial-fillup capability of real healing of real hitpoints.

Wanding/scrolling up real HP -- no biggie, the cooldown is short and the plat cost is negligible, even if I waste half of the healing.

Throwing a 30s cooldown ability when I'm in new content and don't know there's a boss around the corner? Great, now I get to sit for 30 seconds to let it come back, or go in knowing I'm much more likely to fail without that at my disposal.


I think you're going to find it is tough to scale the temp hp idea with healing amp right. I looked on my current completionist-chasing barb on live -- I'm not super geared, nor super past lived by any means, but the barb is sitting at 190 healing amp (at 25). A 16 pure monk is sitting at 150 in fire stance with jidz (were she 20, she'd be at 210 with pdk gaunts). Splashing a little warlock on either of them for the T5, getting to 28 and hitting it for >1k temp hp (assuming linear scaling) seems a bit much, but if you start reducing the scaling factor, then any build who isn't hamp crazy will find it weak.

Let's see, going for max hamp

Monk, 12 - 4 ranks shintao cores, 21 AP +40 untyped
Warlock 6 (aura of courage core, Beacon) - 33 AP +25 untyped
Human hamp - 17 AP +60 untyped
Fire stance, jidz-tet/ka +50 insight
iron mitts (or pdk gaunts) +60 competence
Epic Bej Letter Opener, DT armor, or random Conv. Robe +40 equipment
Mysterious Cloak (21) +45 exceptional
Paladin past live x3 +30
Guild Arship bonus +20
EA: Purity of Essence Twist +20
Party with a Druid (Crown of Summer) +30

= 420? Scale it linearly and at 28 that's 1560 tHP for Shining Through and 82 every 4 for the aura (only 6 warlock). Raise level cap to 30? 1820 tHP. Those are crazy big numbers. How much decrease makes them reasonable? 50%? Now a non-human pure warlock melee who isn't maximizing it is only looking at 25+60+40=125/2=60. So they see only 480 tHP at cap. Better than 300 I guess?

niehues
06-09-2015, 02:21 PM
Not sure if ppl are not seeing this.. but Real HP to temp HP is a big diff.. not so much if u relly on yourself and yourself only.. but if u are playing with a group that changes everything... real HP u can get a heal from anyone in your party to flll that blank, but in case u have temp HP once that is gone is gone.. till u cast a spell to top it up again.. with is a lot less likelly someone in your party could do so...

so..

"Beyond that it doesn't matter too much whether I am healing real HP or temp HP, because it's just a matter of focusing on keeping my temp HP > 0 instead of my real HP > 0." so this is really not true...

Its like comparing a bottle of water with a Ice in a form of bottle.. u may have the same amount of water.. but the bottle is a lot easyer to fill than recreate another ice one...






The issue is throughput, which you could rephrase as HPS (healing per second).

The Cure SLA had great potential throughput; assuming metamagics, ~200 positive spellpower, 0 healing amp, and 0% positive crit chance, then its 3-sec cooldown would have offered around 40 healing per second even before level 20. Characters more deeply invested in heal amp, positive spellpower & crit chance & critical multipliers would have seen far more than that.

This new ability is starting from 3.33 healing per second (at <= L20) or 10 healing per second (at cap). It will scale with heal amp, but not spellpower, crit chance, or crit multipliers. Even at cap it is starting at roughly 25% strength of the cure SLA and does not have nearly as much room to grow due to fewer scaling mechanics.

That's the main issue with the new ability.

Beyond that it doesn't matter too much whether I am healing real HP or temp HP, because it's just a matter of focusing on keeping my temp HP > 0 instead of my real HP > 0.

Infiltraitor
06-09-2015, 02:36 PM
Erased yes, replaced no, as other posters have noted. That's part of why I suggested a stacking ablative armor type design instead -- provides the partial-fillup capability of real healing of real hitpoints.

Wanding/scrolling up real HP -- no biggie, the cooldown is short and the plat cost is negligible, even if I waste half of the healing.

Throwing a 30s cooldown ability when I'm in new content and don't know there's a boss around the corner? Great, now I get to sit for 30 seconds to let it come back, or go in knowing I'm much more likely to fail without that at my disposal.


I think you're going to find it is tough to scale the temp hp idea with healing amp right. I looked on my current completionist-chasing barb on live -- I'm not super geared, nor super past lived by any means, but the barb is sitting at 190 healing amp (at 25). A 16 pure monk is sitting at 150 in fire stance with jidz (were she 20, she'd be at 210 with pdk gaunts). Splashing a little warlock on either of them for the T5, getting to 28 and hitting it for >1k temp hp (assuming linear scaling) seems a bit much, but if you start reducing the scaling factor, then any build who isn't hamp crazy will find it weak.

Let's see, going for max hamp

Monk, 12 - 4 ranks shintao cores, 21 AP +40 untyped
Warlock 6 (aura of courage core, Beacon) - 33 AP +25 untyped
Human hamp - 17 AP +60 untyped
Fire stance, jidz-tet/ka +50 insight
iron mitts (or pdk gaunts) +60 competence
Epic Bej Letter Opener, DT armor, or random Conv. Robe +40 equipment
Mysterious Cloak (21) +45 exceptional
Paladin past live x3 +30
Guild Arship bonus +20
EA: Purity of Essence Twist +20
Party with a Druid (Crown of Summer) +30

= 420? Scale it linearly and at 28 that's 1560 tHP for Shining Through and 82 every 4 for the aura (only 6 warlock). Raise level cap to 30? 1820 tHP. Those are crazy big numbers. How much decrease makes them reasonable? 50%? Now a non-human pure warlock melee who isn't maximizing it is only looking at 25+60+40=125/2=60. So they see only 480 tHP at cap. Better than 300 I guess?

That's a 3d6 eldritch blast at level 28, centered, almost zero damage mitigation. You will be out dps'd by Quijonn's 4000 hp paladin and he'll have better saves and PRR and MRR.

Rhysem
06-09-2015, 02:50 PM
That's a 3d6 eldritch blast at level 28, centered, almost zero damage mitigation. You will be out dps'd by Quijonn's 4000 hp paladin and he'll have better saves and PRR and MRR.

At the point I used more than 2 Monk levels it was gimped no matter what else I did with it. But it was also the most hamp I could find. I guess technically barbie is probably only 30 behind the monk and way better on the other aspects, but I did say I went for max hamp. :-)

Steelstar
06-09-2015, 02:53 PM
Hey again, everyone.

We ran into some technical issues making these abilities scale with Healing Amplification, so we did some restructuring to make sure these are useful in Epics while being balanced in Heroics. We're now looking at:

Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with a Determination bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal 20x the number of base Eldritch Blast Dice you have.

A Pure Warlock at level 20 generally has 9, meaning every time your Aura ticks, you and your allies get 180 Temporary HP. There are a few other avenues of expanding the number of base dice you have, which would also affect this ability.


Shining Through: Gain a Sacred bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal to 15x your Constitution Score that last for up to 10 minutes. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)


That's CON, not CON modifier.
As said before, these stack with other sources of Temporary HP


We've been running a few different (mostly Pure Warlock) builds through Epic Elite content (TOEE, Halls, Orchard) primarily using these two abilities and Cocoon for survivability, and even on non-optimized builds they seem to hold up fine.

Rhysem
06-09-2015, 02:59 PM
Steelstar, which pool of temp HP is depleted first? The aura one, or the 30-second cooldown one?

These are probably workable pure. I'm not so sure about splashed though -- or rather, I'm not sure they're not being carried by whatever is splashing them.

Also, bladeforged uber alles! All the temp HP and all the self-repairing.


Late edit: Another Q -- does the aura pulse count as casting a spell on yourself or your allies from TS:Feigned Health?

Ambitious
06-09-2015, 03:17 PM
Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with a Determination bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal 20x the number of base Eldritch Blast Dice you have.

A Pure Warlock at level 20 generally has 9, meaning every time your Aura ticks, you and your allies get 180 Temporary HP. There are a few other avenues of expanding the number of base dice you have, which would also affect this ability.



Your intention was to make it scale in epic levels. It is not. It only scales in heroic levels up to lvl 20. Making this alot more powerful for lvl 20 than it is for lvl 28 (30).

Having that said, 180hp every 2 seconds is alot. That is 270 hp every three seconds. Sacred Ground, which heals every 3 secs, is doing the same amount of healing with avarage healing amp and spellpower. But Sacred Ground costs spellpoints, can't be up all the time due to cooldown and has casting time, which reduces your dps.

Gratch
06-09-2015, 03:28 PM
Trying not to forget the fleshies here at all! Though we do get where you're coming from - The removal of positive healing does put a big advantage in the mechanical corner. As said above, we're going to have these Temporary HP scale with Healing (and not Repair) amp, we'll take a look and see if it needs to be adjusted further.


Backup the fleshy cart here a bit. Just because there's one ability on one of two sets of warforged races that is a very nice hp fixing ability, does not put repairing, repair amp sources, repair burst (oh wait... there isn't repair burst unlike the stuff that flows from exalted, crusader and clerics), spells available AND realistically taken by many more classes, and there's even fewer classes with repair skill than heal skill if you're going cross-class for said skill bump. Do we need to give you the maximum repair amp (requires arty levels) versus heal amp (avail in many classes) in game?

As another point... how many bladeforged do you see consistently running EE? One 6s cooldown source with weak amplification versus most everyone else having a plentiful set of sources and insane amplification.

Saying that fleshies are lacking in hit point recuperation capability in DDO is like saying bald, white guys are under-represented in positions of power in the real world.

Sorry I don't have anything constructive to say here regarding warlocks and their healing, I'm just sad that a dev thinks end game has a large following using repair/reconstruct. While you do have to balance capabilities throughout the heroic/epic levels of the classes, bladeforged reconstruct is only an easy button for a while, but in EE, raids, it currently veers toward a handicap and a disliked pair of races by others in the party.

Infiltraitor
06-09-2015, 03:34 PM
Your intention was to make it scale in epic levels. It is not. It only scales in heroic levels up to lvl 20. Making this alot more powerful for lvl 20 than it is for lvl 28 (30).

Having that said, 180hp every 2 seconds is alot. That is 270 hp every three seconds. Sacred Ground, which heals every 3 secs, is doing the same amount of healing with avarage healing amp and spellpower. But Sacred Ground costs spellpoints, can't be up all the time due to cooldown and has casting time, which reduces your dps.


You make a very good point about the level 20 being as tough as a level 28 due to the way it scales.

On the plus side, the party buff nature of this ability is OP enough that I can start soloing EE with pets again if this goes live. I mean, an entire party with 180 hp/ 2 seconds. Nerf it by half for other people please.

Wongar
06-09-2015, 03:46 PM
Hey again, everyone.

We ran into some technical issues making these abilities scale with Healing Amplification, so we did some restructuring to make sure these are useful in Epics while being balanced in Heroics. We're now looking at:

Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with a Determination bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal 20x the number of base Eldritch Blast Dice you have.

A Pure Warlock at level 20 generally has 9, meaning every time your Aura ticks, you and your allies get 180 Temporary HP. There are a few other avenues of expanding the number of base dice you have, which would also affect this ability.


Shining Through: Gain a Sacred bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal to 15x your Constitution Score that last for up to 10 minutes. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)


That's CON, not CON modifier.
As said before, these stack with other sources of Temporary HP


We've been running a few different (mostly Pure Warlock) builds through Epic Elite content (TOEE, Halls, Orchard) primarily using these two abilities and Cocoon for survivability, and even on non-optimized builds they seem to hold up fine.

I have experimented with temp hitpoints in melee quite a bit in the past. My experience shows that for temp hit points to be effective in an extended melee fight, you need to be able to replenish them frequently / on demand and that you need a large enough pool of tmp HP to absorb most of the damage. With limited actual healing, you need to protect your base hitpoints because as your base HP are reduced, so is your effective total HP (whereas with actual HP you can always be healed back to full.) Given the relatively smaller real HP pool of a Warlock, protecting it will be even more important.

I can see this version of Brilliance and Shining Through being very effective on a melee in EE as it gives what I think you need. I particularly like that you can invest in better returns if you want them with Shining Through and Con. Con giving a nice double benefit of both regular and temp HP makes it a nice tradeoff.

I'm still a little concerned about the 30 second cooldown but think it may be OK. Worst case you have to back out of melee while on cooldown and depend on your aura, Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast for damage.

As a side note - giving all nearby allies a 180 Temp HP every tick will be a huge boost to other melee. This should make everyone smile when a melee warlock joins a group.

Ziindarax
06-09-2015, 03:48 PM
Brilliance is too weak as proposed. Perhaps instead of scaling the temp hp by eldritch die (which would put a damper on multi-classing, especially since it's probably not counting Tainted Scholar boosts to eldritch blast die), scale it by the highest spellpower, perhaps?


As for Shining Through - with reasonable effort, you could get your con to about 50 something - which would give you 810 Temporary Hit points. If implemented as is, this would make the warlock decently survivable, but it might create a situation where the player feels forced to take it in order to be able to survive. :?

Not only that, but I've seen some con builds push 70-90+. On a Barb 15, Warlock 5 Dwarf build, I can see this becoming 15 x ~70-80 con = ~1,050 temporary hp to 1,200 temporary hp. With a 30 second cooldown, that makes this better than the Sentinel Capstone, which you're only allowed to use once per rest (Please, Turn the Sentinel Capstone into this - WAAAAY Better). As much as I think this would be cool, I think it would be a good idea to experiment with a variable timer for cool down.

Thirty seconds wouldn't be out of the question if your con is less than or equal to 30 con, but for the aforementioned build above where you're cranking out 70-80+ con, the cool down needs to be at least 3-5 minutes. For those who would say this is a bad idea, I would like to posit that I've played with full parties that have had rogues with about 450-500 HP on EE in some of the Demonweb quests without much of a problem.


Hey again, everyone.

We ran into some technical issues making these abilities scale with Healing Amplification, so we did some restructuring to make sure these are useful in Epics while being balanced in Heroics. We're now looking at:

Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with a Determination bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal 20x the number of base Eldritch Blast Dice you have.

A Pure Warlock at level 20 generally has 9, meaning every time your Aura ticks, you and your allies get 180 Temporary HP. There are a few other avenues of expanding the number of base dice you have, which would also affect this ability.


Shining Through: Gain a Sacred bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal to 15x your Constitution Score that last for up to 10 minutes. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)


That's CON, not CON modifier.
As said before, these stack with other sources of Temporary HP


We've been running a few different (mostly Pure Warlock) builds through Epic Elite content (TOEE, Halls, Orchard) primarily using these two abilities and Cocoon for survivability, and even on non-optimized builds they seem to hold up fine.

Slasheboy
06-09-2015, 03:49 PM
Thanks for the quick update, Steelstar.

As it currently stands, Break Forth seems to be about right, but Brilliance is definitely wwaaaayyy too strong as it stands.

I thought it would still be weak at lvl 6 (earliest pick) due to the double scaling Brilliance has (temp heal X aura tick time), but no, 60 temp heal per 4 seconds is still too strong.

Something like... 10 base temp hp + 6 temp hp per blast dice (6 because that's the warlock's hit dice) + 30 at epic level 21 + 6 per epic level would be closer.

That's...

16 temp hp every 5 seconds at lvl 1, or 3.2 hp per second (can't take it at level 1 though)
28 temp hp every 5 seconds at lvl 5, or 5.6 hp per second (can't take it at level 5 either)
34 temp hp every 4 seconds at lvl 7, or 8.5 hp per second
46 temp hp every 4 seconds at lvl 11, or 11.5 hp per second
52 temp hp every 3 seconds at lvl 14, or 17.3 hp per second
58 temp hp every 2 seconds at lvl 18, or 29 hp per second
106 temp hp every 2 seconds at lvl 22, or 52 hp per second
136 temp hp every 2 seconds at lvl 27, or 68 hp per second

Basically, have a base component (so that multiclasses aren't totally screwed) with both a fixed epic component and a variable epic component, for the ability to scale well.
My epic numbers might be off though, since I don't play epic much.

Rhysem
06-09-2015, 03:54 PM
As a side note - giving all nearby allies a 180 Temp HP every tick will be a huge boost to other melee. This should make everyone smile when a melee warlock joins a group.

Truth.

But will it make them the "yes, we want one of you, here's a tower shield just shield block up behind it" class? Because that'd suck.

Maybe like the other things in the aura it needs to have a self and self+others component, for a larger total pool on self? 2/3rd (current multiplier) self, 2/3rd (current multiplier) self+others?

decease
06-09-2015, 04:21 PM
Truth.

But will it make them the "yes, we want one of you, here's a tower shield just shield block up behind it" class? Because that'd suck.

Maybe like the other things in the aura it needs to have a self and self+others component, for a larger total pool on self? 2/3rd (current multiplier) self, 2/3rd (current multiplier) self+others?

true, one bard is more then enough.. plus bard is no longer that "sing and begone" class.. they actually deal decent dps, instant kill and CC...anywayz.. this is how i like them to be...full detail here:https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461247-Warlock-Class-Full-Revamp-suggestion



http://s9.postimg.org/sqe3hbd1r/wares.jpg
Enlighten Spirit:
Core
Enlighten Soul: You gain 1 health for every enhancement spend in the tree, additionally every core you acquire will provide you with 5 prr/mrr. 1 ap

Eldritch Doom[toggle EB stance]: When toggle you shape your EB into an aura, dealing damage to all enemy around you every 5 second. (count as defensive stance, does not stack with Stalwart Defense or Sacred Defense) 1 ap

True Enlightenment: you gain 5 light spell power and 1 melee damage for every core. Passive:Your Eldritch doom now proc every 4 second1 ap

Aura of Menace: Any hostile creature within a 5-foot radius of you takes a —2 penalty on attacks, AC, and saves Passive:Your Eldritch doom now proc every 3 second1 ap

Energy Resistance: For every 4 warlock level you gain 6 resistance to all energy.(does not stack with resist energy spell nor old ship buff) Passive:Your Eldritch doom now proc every 2 second 1 ap 1 ap

Capstone: Celestial Spirit: +2 CON, +2 CHA.Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. While in Eldritch doom stance your Eldritch Blasts, melee and range attack gain 3d6 Light damage, and you gain 10 Melee Power, Ranged Power, and Universal Spell Power. 1 ap

T1
Enlighten glaive:- Summons a glaive(sword)of Light energy that does Light damage instead of normal damage, and uses the wielder's Charisma instead of Strength for determining attack and damage bonuses. The glaive are automatically equipped when created. damage increase by 1d6 for every 5 caster level. 2 ap
Variation:
Cl1~4 2D4 + 1 + 1d6 light damage range 20~20 X3
Cl5~9 [0.5w]2d4 + 2 + 2d6 light damage range 20~20 X3
Cl10~14 [1w]2d4 + 3 + 3d6 light damage range 20~20 X3
Cl15~19 [1.5w]2d4 + 4 + 4d6 light damage range 20~20 X3
Cl20~24 [2w]2d4 + 5 + 6d6 light damage range 20~20 X3
Cl25~29 [2.5w]2d4 + 6 + 7d6 light damage range 20~20 X3
Cl30+ [3w]2d4 + 7 + 9d6 light damage range 20~20 X3

http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/gw2-chaos-sword-3_thumb.jpg
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Warglaive_%285e_Equipment%29

Spirit Blast:- Deal +1w weapon damage and full eb damage to all enemy around. undead take additional 2d6 light damage. (count as cleave) 2 ap

Spirit weapon: Weapon held in your hand now count as ghost touch and Undead Bane. 2 ap

Shield: You permanently gain the effects of the Shield spell. 2 ap

Spirit Armor:- Improves your Edlritch doom stance. Multiselector 3 ap
While in Eldritch doom stance: you gain a +[5/10/15] Competence bonus to Physical and Magical Resistance Ratin
While in Eldritch doom stance: you gain a you gain a +[2/4/6] Competence bonus to Constitution.
While in Eldritch doom stance: you gain a +10%/+15%/+20% Competence bonus to maximum hit points.
While in Eldritch doom stance: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor or docents is increased by [15/30/50]%




T2
Enlighten over strength: You may now use your Cha mod to modify your to hit2 ap

Shape Vestments: While wearing Light Armor, you gain +10 Maximum HP and +5 MRR. While wearing Medium Armor you are proficient with, you gain +20 Maximum HP and +10 MRR. 2 ap

Spirit weapon: Any weapon you wield is consider as spell implement and Geater undead Bane2 ap

Aura of Courage:You gain immunity to Fear, and all allies around you gain a +4 morale bonus to saving throws against fear. Passive: +5 Healing Amp 2 ap

Spirit Armor- Improves your Edlritch doom stance. Multiselector 3 ap
While in Eldritch doom stance: you gain a +[5/10/15] Competence bonus to Physical and Magical Resistance Ratin
While in Eldritch doom stance: you gain a you gain a +[2/4/6] Competence bonus to Constitution.
While in Eldritch doom stance: you gain a +10%/+15%/+20% Competence bonus to maximum hit points.
While in Eldritch doom stance: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor or docents is increased by [15/30/50]%



T3
Enlighten over strength: You may now use your Cha mod to modify your weapon damage 2 ap

Transform Magic- when ever your eldritch doom proc all allies in range are healed for 5/10/15 positive energy. 3 ap

Spirit weapon: your melee attack deal additionally 1/3/5d6 light damage that scale with spell power. 6 ap

CON/CHA 2 ap

Spirit Armor- Improves your Edlritch doom stance. Multiselector 3 ap
While in Eldritch doom stance: you gain a +[5/10/15] Competence bonus to Physical and Magical Resistance Ratin
While in Eldritch doom stance: you gain a you gain a +[2/4/6] Competence bonus to Constitution.
While in Eldritch doom stance: you gain a +10%/+15%/+20% Competence bonus to maximum hit points.
While in Eldritch doom stance: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor or docents is increased by [15/30/50]%



T4

holy blast:[essence]Convert all your Eb damage to holy damage(scale off radiance and heal skill)2 ap

Celestial Flight- gain immunity to Gust of Wind and any any other effect that blown you away. Passive you gain 5% healing amp 2 ap

Power of Enlightenment:- you gain 3/6/10 bonus melee/ranger, 6/12/20spell power 3 ap

CON/CHA 2 ap

Spirit Armor:- Improves your Edlritch doom stance. Multiselector 3 ap
While in Eldritch doom stance: you gain a +[5/10/15] Competence bonus to Physical and Magical Resistance Ratin
While in Eldritch doom stance: you gain a you gain a +[2/4/6] Competence bonus to Constitution.
While in Eldritch doom stance: you gain a +10%/+15%/+20% Competence bonus to maximum hit points.
While in Eldritch doom stance: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor or docents is increased by [15/30/50]

T5
Death Ward:- your permanently gain the effect of deathward 2 ap

Great Spirit Blast:- Deal +3w weapon damage and full eb damage to all enemy around. undead take additional 5d6 light damage. (count as great cleave) 2 ap

Word of Changing[toggle]:- While toggle on You gain a +4 alchemical bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, a +6 alchemical bonus to Armor Class, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. Your base attack bonus equals your character level. doubling the cooldown of your spells. 2 ap

Beacon: While your Eldritch Aura is active, all allies within your Aura gain +10 Healing Amp. You personally receive an additional +20 Healing Amp. 2 ap

Spirit Armor:- While in Eldritch doom stance you gain permanent displacement effect. 2 ap

Rautis
06-09-2015, 04:27 PM
Hey again, everyone.

We ran into some technical issues making these abilities scale with Healing Amplification, so we did some restructuring to make sure these are useful in Epics while being balanced in Heroics. We're now looking at:

Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with a Determination bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal 20x the number of base Eldritch Blast Dice you have.

A Pure Warlock at level 20 generally has 9, meaning every time your Aura ticks, you and your allies get 180 Temporary HP. There are a few other avenues of expanding the number of base dice you have, which would also affect this ability.


Shining Through: Gain a Sacred bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal to 15x your Constitution Score that last for up to 10 minutes. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)


That's CON, not CON modifier.
As said before, these stack with other sources of Temporary HP


We've been running a few different (mostly Pure Warlock) builds through Epic Elite content (TOEE, Halls, Orchard) primarily using these two abilities and Cocoon for survivability, and even on non-optimized builds they seem to hold up fine.

Scaling for Brilliance is not well designed. It should scale to about where it is for higher epics and the level where it's at higher heroic levels make it mindnumbingly ez-mode. Compare this to Warpriest Implacable Foe which would be very strong ability if it wasnt for the crippling 5 min cooldown. In my experience you're practically unkillable in places like Heroic Elite Amrath, Stormhorns and lower level epic elites while Implacable Foe is running and you have your other buffs on(and it is substantial in other places too, cocoon is only 150 temp hp for example). In very high intensity level 20 fights you do have to heal on top of that but 600 temp hps in 18 secs still allows some rather stupid tactical choices to work. This ability ticks (180hp/2s)/(100hp/3s)=2,7 times more hp per second than Implacable Foe. Other one you can use like 20 secs every 5 mins(timer is 18 secs but last tick vanishes some seconds later, as described) and other one is always on.


Brilliance works for the group around the warlock too, which can make it multiple times more stronger than it seems now. Particularly if combined with some Epic Destiny healing options like Sacred Ground. But mostly at lower level epics. For higher levels the numbers may be about right. While some may not like some aspects of temp hp I think it is mostly when it comes in amounts lower than about 50 and doesn't tick every 2 secs. Brilliance practically adds 180 hp to Warlock+allies health pool(unlike typical healing) and regens him 90 hp per second during combat where he takes damage at level 20. It also circumvents effects like healing curse or WF healing penalty.

Ziindarax
06-09-2015, 04:27 PM
Truth.

But will it make them the "yes, we want one of you, here's a tower shield just shield block up behind it" class? Because that'd suck.

Maybe like the other things in the aura it needs to have a self and self+others component, for a larger total pool on self? 2/3rd (current multiplier) self, 2/3rd (current multiplier) self+others?

This would be nice as well, IMO - an additional boost to light damage, and/or threat reduction would be best?

decease
06-09-2015, 04:33 PM
This would be nice as well, IMO - an additional boost to light damage, and/or threat reduction would be best?

would you enjoy playing one? a healer is much more useful.. a bard provide more powerful buff.. you are just there to follow and pike..

p.s. how often do you need someone to buff you to play through quest... would you want one of these for raid? what more borken is if you have 5 of these.. then they just standing together and no one ever dies..lol

Steelstar
06-09-2015, 04:40 PM
After more discussion and feedback from this thread, adjusting Brilliance again to:

Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with a Determination bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal to your Constitution score. If you are level 20 or higher, this effect is doubled.

This should bring a more even scaling across Heroic and Epic.

Ziindarax
06-09-2015, 04:49 PM
After more discussion and feedback from this thread, adjusting Brilliance again to:

Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with a Determination bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal to your Constitution score. If you are level 20 or higher, this effect is doubled.

This should bring a more even scaling across Heroic and Epic.

How often does this refresh?

decease
06-09-2015, 04:50 PM
How often does this refresh?

they said aura, so 8~2 second.. really.. i lose all my faith in turbine dev at this point of the time...........this class is hopeless

Steelstar
06-09-2015, 04:51 PM
How often does this refresh?

Every time your Aura ticks, which is every 5/4/3/2 seconds, depending on which Cores you have from this tree.

Ziindarax
06-09-2015, 04:56 PM
Every time your Aura ticks, which is every 5/4/3/2 seconds, depending on which Cores you have from this tree.

Any chance Brilliance could have a personal component like the other buffs? Such as passive healing amp, or more light damage? As it's own, basing it on CON is kinda weak if running a pure warlock. Perhaps /12 con mod x 1/4 warlock levels?

Rhysem
06-09-2015, 05:21 PM
After more discussion and feedback from this thread, adjusting Brilliance again to:

Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with a Determination bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal to your Constitution score. If you are level 20 or higher, this effect is doubled.

This should bring a more even scaling across Heroic and Epic.

Barring extreme examples like the 130 con dwarf, this feels too weak again, though it is super friendly for multi-classing unlike the previous version. That 25 barb tr I have running? 32 con; 18 starting +5 tome +9 stat. Raged that's 43. I could pick up another couple points by fixing my itemization without going through any crazy work. If I was splashed 4 warlock, that's still only 100 every 2 seconds -- not really putting a dent in EE's damage output. As pure warlock it'd be more like 80 every 2 -- even less awesome.

decease
06-09-2015, 05:22 PM
Any chance Brilliance could have a personal component like the other buffs? Such as passive healing amp, or more light damage? As it's own, basing it on CON is kinda weak if running a pure warlock. Perhaps /12 con mod x 1/4 warlock levels?

don't you see.. this is not design for warlock.. it is design for barb splash.. this is not a class, this is a public enhancement group..

Rhysem
06-09-2015, 05:38 PM
p.s. how often do you need someone to buff you to play through quest... would you want one of these for raid? what more borken is if you have 5 of these.. then they just standing together and no one ever dies..lol

That's actually an interesting question. Do auras pulse on the server's choice, or is the pulse related to client behavior? Will a 4 warlock party now sit there trying to desynchronize auras so that they pulse 1/2 second after each other so you actually get the HP every half a second?

Imagine trying to explain that to a new player. Oi.

Infiltraitor
06-09-2015, 05:41 PM
After more discussion and feedback from this thread, adjusting Brilliance again to:

Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with a Determination bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal to your Constitution score. If you are level 20 or higher, this effect is doubled.

This should bring a more even scaling across Heroic and Epic.

This is something I could go for. This is only a tier 4 ability, so any more power is going to be OP.

dozkal-mo
06-09-2015, 06:00 PM
After more discussion and feedback from this thread, adjusting Brilliance again to:

Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with a Determination bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal to your Constitution score. If you are level 20 or higher, this effect is doubled.

This should bring a more even scaling across Heroic and Epic.

Assuming a conservative 30 Con, 30 Temp HP proccing every few seconds in heroic and 60 every 2 seconds in Epic is pretty useful for a this, methinks. At least for how I'd play it. I usually consider temp HP as temp DR off the next attack, which I like, and this one refreshes...for free. I'm not sure if it is quite enough for epics, though. The prior mentioning of this seemed a bit too much.

Ziindarax
06-09-2015, 06:09 PM
Assuming a conservative 30 Con, 30 Temp HP proccing every few seconds in heroic and 60 every 2 seconds in Epic is pretty useful for a this, methinks. At least for how I'd play it. I usually consider temp HP as temp DR off the next attack, which I like, and this one refreshes...for free. I'm not sure if it is quite enough for epics, though. The prior mentioning of this seemed a bit too much.

This might be workable in Epic Normal, but not Epic Hard, and certainly not Epic Elite. >.>

If nothing else, scale the power by difficulty so that the power would be of some use (TOEE archers on EE are easily capable of tearing through 150 temp HP within a single attack, and as they fight in flocks, you're sure to be taken out pretty quickly - and that was WITH Cure Moderate Sla working the way it did.) :/


Edit: Something I just want to point out real quick - it's not that I am wanting Warlocks to become god-mode or anything, it's that I feel all abilities need to be useful through all ranges of content up to, and including, Epic Elite. Just like how the tank enhancement abilities are useful through out ALL content (getting one's PRR up to 60% mitigation makes a BIIG difference when an ogre that hits for what appears to be 6-700 a hit before DR and PRR in EE TOEE. And because the defense is %-based, it scales nicely. This power has no such luxury.

Ziindarax
06-09-2015, 06:26 PM
would you enjoy playing one? a healer is much more useful.. a bard provide more powerful buff.. you are just there to follow and pike..

p.s. how often do you need someone to buff you to play through quest... would you want one of these for raid? what more borken is if you have 5 of these.. then they just standing together and no one ever dies..lol

I design my builds so that I do not rely on buffs (besides Death Ward for the only ability in the game that the mobs know how to use :rolleyes:). I would want a warlock in there, but like the post before me, I must wonder as to how effective it would be to have the warlocks timing their bursts carefully (if such were possible).

Taanus
06-09-2015, 06:35 PM
I keep trying to come up with something positive (pun?) to add to all this, but it just ain't there. You guys should take this thread to the powers that be that said "no positive heals" and let them read through it and see what they've caused. Cleary, the majority of players/customers aren't happy with this.

I'm sorry I'm so sore about all this, and I appreciate the work you guys are doing in a crunch situation to fix a tense situation, but honestly, it's starting to feel like DDO's biggest band-aid.

Rhysem
06-09-2015, 06:49 PM
I actually really like the switch to auto-pulsed ablative. I just don't like how the ablative works. I'd rather see a faster ticking, stacking-to-a-maximum version. And a big enough ablative amount to matter.

It happening automatically and to all my nearby friends is pretty super, although since I've seen other things like consecration buff enemy npcs when they are no-kill because they have to TALK WITH WORDS WORDS WORDS, I'd hate to find the aura buffs them and then I have to go through that extra HP, because that is silly.

decease
06-09-2015, 07:01 PM
I design my builds so that I do not rely on buffs (besides Death Ward for the only ability in the game that the mobs know how to use :rolleyes:). I would want a warlock in there, but like the post before me, I must wonder as to how effective it would be to have the warlocks timing their bursts carefully (if such were possible).

these days everyone need to be able to solo.. more or less.

Es warlock= very tiny damage(around 400 every 2 second), buff everyone in melee range for 80 damage shield every 2 second.. no heal, several self only buff. tiny sp pool with standard enchant dc on tiny few spell selection.

p.s. burst interrupt your attack sequence, the animation is quite long.. they use same animation as radiant burst~~

edit: or it could be a barb splash several level for 200+ damage shield every 3~4 second.. while maintain dps.. anywayz.. this is what i have on mind...https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461247-Warlock-Class-Full-Revamp-suggestion

Sebastrd
06-09-2015, 07:05 PM
After more discussion and feedback from this thread, adjusting Brilliance again to:

Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with a Determination bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal to your Constitution score. If you are level 20 or higher, this effect is doubled.

This should bring a more even scaling across Heroic and Epic.

I'm not a fan of this change. I'd prefer the scaling be tied to Warlock level in some way, so that pure Warlocks get more out of it. I assume the problem with tying it to EB dice is that you stop gaining them after level 20? What about making it 1d10 per caster level?

Xerio
06-09-2015, 07:47 PM
I'm not a fan of this change. I'd prefer the scaling be tied to Warlock level in some way, so that pure Warlocks get more out of it. I assume the problem with tying it to EB dice is that you stop gaining them after level 20? What about making it 1d10 per caster level?

too inconsistent, scaling it to CON ability is a step in the right direction. Still sounds low though, the swing of a champion knocks that off in a second and I've stumbled upon a room with 4-10 of the blasted things in the more populated dungeons. I would prefer to see it tied to the warlock class level maybe CON ability score + (warlock class level*2) = temp HP(+25hp per epic level*2) refreshed every 5/4/3/2.
Pure warlock with say 28con at lv 20 is looking at 28+(20*2)=68 hp per 2 seconds. lv 25 that same warlock is now gaining +250 to that total for 318hp per 2 seconds. doesn't look it but that extra 40 hp for being a pure warlock is the difference between 318 at lv 25 to 258hp at lv 25 (for 4th lv warlock splash). for EN that might be overkill but to be honest EN dungeons are a joke anyway. EH it'll provide enough to keep you contending in melee against groups of 3-4 NPCs and might give you the edge over a single champion. As for EE it'll soften the blows long enough for Cocoon to patch you up. Granted these numbers don't take into account the possibility of heal amp effecting it but that sounded rather tentative. Suppose with a decent hamp you would potentially see 600-900ish temp HP every couple of seconds. That'd keep you going in EE though!

Delacroix21
06-09-2015, 07:53 PM
Ok just read the most recent revision to the temp hitpoints abilities and now I believe they are solid. I am especially glad that they dont just reward fleshie builds as I believe the BF recon is fine as is.


I see this tree now as a more survivability tree I guess, as it still has next to no melee in it. The aoe spell bursts (cleaves) and aura have ZERO synergy with melee epic destinies, and overall I think this tree needs some work, mainly in adding more melee specific boosts and abilities. Are people running in this destiny using melee anticipated to run in shiradi and hope for an occasional proc on the aoes? Just what is the focus of this tree?

Infiltraitor
06-09-2015, 08:55 PM
Ok just read the most recent revision to the temp hitpoints abilities and now I believe they are solid. I am especially glad that they dont just reward fleshie builds as I believe the BF recon is fine as is.


I see this tree now as a more survivability tree I guess, as it still has next to no melee in it. The aoe spell bursts (cleaves) and aura have ZERO synergy with melee epic destinies, and overall I think this tree needs some work, mainly in adding more melee specific boosts and abilities. Are people running in this destiny using melee anticipated to run in shiradi and hope for an occasional proc on the aoes? Just what is the focus of this tree?

I think maybe fit 10-20% more double strike in here?

gwonbush
06-09-2015, 09:06 PM
After more discussion and feedback from this thread, adjusting Brilliance again to:

Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with a Determination bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal to your Constitution score. If you are level 20 or higher, this effect is doubled.

This should bring a more even scaling across Heroic and Epic.

With the new functionality, Brilliance needs to switch it's position in the tree with Retribution (also in T4). It makes much more sense to have the "Your aura now also gives your party temp HP" ability above the aura buffs than the buff to all attacks whether your aura is on or not.

EllisDee37
06-10-2015, 05:08 AM
Not in love with temp hit points regardless how many there are or how frequently they replenish. It's starting to feel like Master Chief's shield in the original Halo. You'd be running around with a full shield but a tiny red sliver of actual hp, and it would be super annoying.

If Warlocks can't self-heal with positive energy because of flavor reasons -- at their core they're evil -- then give them evil self-healing. Let them steal the life of living enemies. Scale the ability to be less healing than you would if the ability only healed them, but keep in mind that the bloated bags of hp in epics could heal a player 100 times over so don't fret too much about the damage side.

Something like:

Lifestealing
Cost: 12 spell points (echoes)
Cooldown: 12 seconds (maybe 15?)
Metamagics: ???
Range: Medium? (like a fireball without enlarge)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
Effect: Target one enemy to steal their essence, inflicting 1d6 evil damage per warlock level while healing yourself by the same amount. Boosted by evil (alignment) spellpower and crits.

Or whatever numbers makes sense. Despite being an evil alignment power, it would still effect evil mobs. (Like an archdevil sucking the life out of its minions.) It would be neither positive nor negative, so would sidestep the undead issue, both when targeting undead as well as when being undead yourself.

Alkusoittow
06-10-2015, 10:34 AM
Brilliance still needs work. Obviously there is much weeping and gnashing of teeth, and that's for good reason.

My suggestion:

Leave it in its current description with temp HP based on CON, but also add a cocoon-like ability to the Tier5 Spirit Blast which will heal for some amount.

Infiltraitor
06-10-2015, 11:24 AM
Not in love with temp hit points regardless how many there are or how frequently they replenish. It's starting to feel like Master Chief's shield in the original Halo. You'd be running around with a full shield but a tiny red sliver of actual hp, and it would be super annoying.

If Warlocks can't self-heal with positive energy because of flavor reasons -- at their core they're evil -- then give them evil self-healing. Let them steal the life of living enemies. Scale the ability to be less healing than you would if the ability only healed them, but keep in mind that the bloated bags of hp in epics could heal a player 100 times over so don't fret too much about the damage side.

Something like:

Lifestealing
Cost: 12 spell points (echoes)
Cooldown: 12 seconds (maybe 15?)
Metamagics: ???
Range: Medium? (like a fireball without enlarge)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
Effect: Target one enemy to steal their essence, inflicting 1d6 evil damage per warlock level while healing yourself by the same amount. Boosted by evil (alignment) spellpower and crits.

Or whatever numbers makes sense. Despite being an evil alignment power, it would still effect evil mobs. (Like an archdevil sucking the life out of its minions.) It would be neither positive nor negative, so would sidestep the undead issue, both when targeting undead as well as when being undead yourself.

Steal life force in the Souleater tree is capped at 9d6 with 20 second cooldown. I like your suggestion better except the spell resistance part. :(

Ziindarax
06-10-2015, 02:25 PM
SteelStar, how about the following:

Brilliant Cleansing:

You cast a brilliant field of light that removes negative levels, status effects, and other ailments. For each caster level removed you regain 30 + (# of caster levels in the debuffs removed) + Warlock levels divided by the highest of Charisma, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Constitution in HP. Cool down: 15 sec.

It's not a positive energy effect per-se, rather it transforms an enemy's negative magic into healing for warforged, undead, or fleshies.

Alkusoittow
06-10-2015, 02:51 PM
SteelStar, how about the following:

Brilliant Cleansing:

You cast a brilliant field of light that removes negative levels, status effects, and other ailments. For each caster level removed you regain 30 + (# of caster levels in the debuffs removed) + Warlock levels divided by the highest of Charisma, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Constitution in HP. Cool down: 15 sec.

It's not a positive energy effect per-se, rather it transforms an enemy's negative magic into healing for warforged, undead, or fleshies.

This seems like it's going in the right direction. Ok, no positive channeling, no CMW, but stealing another creatures HP sounds like a great idea! It's evil enough, does not require positive channeling, and grants the ability to actually restore your HP, rather than just have a little buffer at the top of your sliver of HP.

edrein
06-10-2015, 03:55 PM
Not in love with temp hit points regardless how many there are or how frequently they replenish. It's starting to feel like Master Chief's shield in the original Halo. You'd be running around with a full shield but a tiny red sliver of actual hp, and it would be super annoying.

If Warlocks can't self-heal with positive energy because of flavor reasons -- at their core they're evil -- then give them evil self-healing. Let them steal the life of living enemies. Scale the ability to be less healing than you would if the ability only healed them, but keep in mind that the bloated bags of hp in epics could heal a player 100 times over so don't fret too much about the damage side.

Something like:

Lifestealing
Cost: 12 spell points (echoes)
Cooldown: 12 seconds (maybe 15?)
Metamagics: ???
Range: Medium? (like a fireball without enlarge)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
Effect: Target one enemy to steal their essence, inflicting 1d6 evil damage per warlock level while healing yourself by the same amount. Boosted by evil (alignment) spellpower and crits.

Or whatever numbers makes sense. Despite being an evil alignment power, it would still effect evil mobs. (Like an archdevil sucking the life out of its minions.) It would be neither positive nor negative, so would sidestep the undead issue, both when targeting undead as well as when being undead yourself.

I like this idea to a degree, I'd rather it work as a toggle stance such as Palemaster Shrouds or the Tenser's Toggle, make it work as a positive energy form of Vampire shroud. Make the vampirism effect a 1d6hp + melee power. And make it a tier 5 ability. While it's mentioned how about we scale actual vampire shroud with melee power seeing PM healing cappers off in epics and we're no longer getting the possibility of a undead healing aura from mixing Enlightened Spirit and the old Tainted Scholar when it had the toggle for negative energy blasts.

Ziindarax
06-10-2015, 04:00 PM
This seems like it's going in the right direction. Ok, no positive channeling, no CMW, but stealing another creatures HP sounds like a great idea! It's evil enough, does not require positive channeling, and grants the ability to actually restore your HP, rather than just have a little buffer at the top of your sliver of HP.

And the best part is, this ability works REALLY well toward IQ because the Dreaming Dark spam the heck out of stat drainers (as do Vampires, and others), and just about every caster in Epic quests spam the living heck out of Negative levels like there's no tomorrow, making it a somewhat viable solution/alternative to Negative energy spam, plus the other debuffs.

@Edrein, there's already an ability like this in the Soul Eater tree - at rank 3, it does 9d6 damage to the enemy, and depending on what you selected, heals you for the same either through positive energy, or negative energy (if running undead form).

edrein
06-10-2015, 04:18 PM
And the best part is, this ability works REALLY well toward IQ because the Dreaming Dark spam the heck out of stat drainers (as do Vampires, and others), and just about every caster in Epic quests spam the living heck out of Negative levels like there's no tomorrow, making it a somewhat viable solution/alternative to Negative energy spam, plus the other debuffs.

@Edrein, there's already an ability like this in the Soul Eater tree - at rank 3, it does 9d6 damage to the enemy, and depending on what you selected, heals you for the same either through positive energy, or negative energy (if running undead form).

Yes, but that ability is a 'single target' spell effect. Not a toggle that would apply to your melee attacks such as the vampire form.

Ziindarax
06-10-2015, 05:44 PM
Yes, but that ability is a 'single target' spell effect. Not a toggle that would apply to your melee attacks such as the vampire form.

The other issue is the devs may not be willing to release ANY kind of Vampirism effect greater than the regular vampirism (see Nightmare) - We've no Vampirism shards, and no epic weapon does greater than 1d4 vampiric damage IIRC. The reason being that the devs don't want a "free" healing effect that can keep a high-amped character topped off just by attacking. >.>

While I see what you mean by the toggle, the ability being replaced was single-target, rather than aura so I was going off of that.

edrein
06-10-2015, 06:09 PM
The other issue is the devs may not be willing to release ANY kind of Vampirism effect greater than the regular vampirism (see Nightmare) - We've no Vampirism shards, and no epic weapon does greater than 1d4 vampiric damage IIRC. The reason being that the devs don't want a "free" healing effect that can keep a high-amped character topped off just by attacking. >.>

While I see what you mean by the toggle, the ability being replaced was single-target, rather than aura so I was going off of that.

What you mean is the devs don't want another "overperforming" ravager heal? Well, hate to state it. But Ravager and Warlocks are thematically 'evil' by design and both fit vampirism forms of healing. Unless the Devs want to give us the actual Fiendish Resilience of tabletop where you heal over a turn. That would be yet another reuse of current barbarian code the only difference would be you gain the regen while your Eldritch Aura is toggled on. Which I'm fine with as well.

pjstechie
06-10-2015, 08:11 PM
Every time your Aura ticks, which is every 5/4/3/2 seconds, depending on which Cores you have from this tree.

here's the problem with temporary hit points: they are a losing battle. Temp hps are essentially another way of writing DR but only until they run out. When the damage goes to your actual hit points those are gone, they dont come back via this mechanism.

If thats the design intent thats fine, but this is the reason temp hps are not overly desirable. Unless they come very quickly and in large amounts you are still going to die in higher level/difficulty content.

As a player, when i think about self sufficiency/survivability i dont think about it just in terms of surviving the current fight. I'm looking at how well I can recover before the next fight and temp hps dont allow for any recovery. this is why healing is far far superior.

again, if that is the intent of design, okay, but it is a hard sell for me to see temp hps as more than a minor boost to survivability in any amounts over any amount of time.

Infiltraitor
06-10-2015, 08:34 PM
here's the problem with temporary hit points: they are a losing battle. Temp hps are essentially another way of writing DR but only until they run out. When the damage goes to your actual hit points those are gone, they dont come back via this mechanism.

If thats the design intent thats fine, but this is the reason temp hps are not overly desirable. Unless they come very quickly and in large amounts you are still going to die in higher level/difficulty content.

As a player, when i think about self sufficiency/survivability i dont think about it just in terms of surviving the current fight. I'm looking at how well I can recover before the next fight and temp hps dont allow for any recovery. this is why healing is far far superior.

again, if that is the intent of design, okay, but it is a hard sell for me to see temp hps as more than a minor boost to survivability in any amounts over any amount of time.

750 temp hp +100 temp hp per 2 seconds is quite a bit of survivability. While it may lack PRR, mrr, dps, and saves, it still looks pretty good to start a fight with an extra 850 hp. At least on paper.

gwonbush
06-10-2015, 08:44 PM
750 temp hp +100 temp hp per 2 seconds is quite a bit of survivability. While it may lack PRR, mrr, dps, and saves, it still looks pretty good to start a fight with an extra 850 hp. At least on paper.

I don't think you lack MRR on a warlock. Just for being pure you gain 25 MRR, as well as another 19 in the tree for 44 MRR while naked. With a 30 sheltering item and medium armor, a pure Enlightened Spirit sits at 104 MRR.

Urjak
06-11-2015, 04:11 AM
After more discussion and feedback from this thread, adjusting Brilliance again to:

Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with a Determination bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal to your Constitution score. If you are level 20 or higher, this effect is doubled.

This should bring a more even scaling across Heroic and Epic.

meh, at first I thought wow awesome - 180+ hp area "heal" - I could work with that.

But this new change - while better scaling - makes this ability useless again (like the initial proposal)

For comparison:
Initial Proposal: 30 Temp. HP / 2 sec
First Revision: 180+ Temp. HP / 2 sec
Second Revision: 100 Temp. HP / 2 sec (assuming a nicely rounded 50 Con score - I know for min/max builds with uber gear, completionist and what not it will be a little higher, but for an average this should be a good benchmark)

Why not base it on Warlock caster levels? That would scale perfectly into epic levels as in the future all epic levels add +1 CL<all classes>
So ... countersuggestion:
8 Temp. HP / Warlock-CL / 2 sec
=> 160+ Temp HP @ Lvl 20 (roughly the same as first revision), 224+ Temp. HP @ Lvl 28 (the + for cases where one gets Warlock CL increases from other sources - I'd think Arcane Augmentation should count for this ...)

This would also be more future-change-resistant as possible attribute scores are far more likely to change by a large margin than CL ... also you would not have that weird jump from Con score to Con score x 2 @ lvl 20 ...

Red_Knight
06-11-2015, 03:48 PM
here's the problem with temporary hit points: they are a losing battle. Temp hps are essentially another way of writing DR but only until they run out. When the damage goes to your actual hit points those are gone, they dont come back via this mechanism.

If thats the design intent thats fine, but this is the reason temp hps are not overly desirable. Unless they come very quickly and in large amounts you are still going to die in higher level/difficulty content.

As a player, when i think about self sufficiency/survivability i dont think about it just in terms of surviving the current fight. I'm looking at how well I can recover before the next fight and temp hps dont allow for any recovery. this is why healing is far far superior.

again, if that is the intent of design, okay, but it is a hard sell for me to see temp hps as more than a minor boost to survivability in any amounts over any amount of time.

At least pre-epic, I can see Brilliance being very useful. On lam I was using feign health as a ghetto heal by casting feather fall. It's not a long term solution. Any damage past the temp hit points lowers your chances of survival a little. But it can be helpful.

Getting temp hit points every few seconds could be very handy, especially if brilliance self stacks. Will have to test that.

Pnumbra
06-11-2015, 05:33 PM
After more discussion and feedback from this thread, adjusting Brilliance again to:

Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with a Determination bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal to your Constitution score. If you are level 20 or higher, this effect is doubled.

This should bring a more even scaling across Heroic and Epic.

Hi Steelstar,

First, nice podcast on the Warlock you recently did. The demo was informative for those of us not on Lama. Second, this new change is actually worse than the previous change. A Warlock's Con won't be that high to begin with so as a Temp HP buffer is pretty dismal. There has to be a better way to mitigate this. Personally, I liked the previous build. It reminds me of Consecrate from fvS tier 3. How about 100 Temp HP plus 1-2 per level per tick of aura. This (1-2hp) would be affected by positive spell power.

Keep up the great work on the Warlock. I will finally be able to dump the subpar FvS class I am so addicted to (pure class warrior build).

ZhenBuYaoShi
06-11-2015, 05:48 PM
Hey again, everyone.

We ran into some technical issues making these abilities scale with Healing Amplification, so we did some restructuring to make sure these are useful in Epics while being balanced in Heroics. We're now looking at:

Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with a Determination bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal 20x the number of base Eldritch Blast Dice you have.

A Pure Warlock at level 20 generally has 9, meaning every time your Aura ticks, you and your allies get 180 Temporary HP. There are a few other avenues of expanding the number of base dice you have, which would also affect this ability.


Shining Through: Gain a Sacred bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal to 15x your Constitution Score that last for up to 10 minutes. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)


That's CON, not CON modifier.
As said before, these stack with other sources of Temporary HP


We've been running a few different (mostly Pure Warlock) builds through Epic Elite content (TOEE, Halls, Orchard) primarily using these two abilities and Cocoon for survivability, and even on non-optimized builds they seem to hold up fine.

I am so sick of fleshies have to rely on Cocoon for everything, it either cocoon, or die. You wouldn't survive anything without it, try and do your content with any other of the healing options in the game other than cocoon, and see what happens. SO glad you said you needed Cocoon, makes me think very little of the Warlock itself surviving with any other option!

SO, why, is Cocoon, the most powerful, useful, necessary healing ability in the game, a Tier 1 Epic Destiny ability, when it should clearly be corrected to be reclassified to be at least be a Tier 3 or 4 one to make people REALLY work for it if they want to have it, and not just toss it in their little final Tier 1 destiny slot mindlessly, and continue to build their character. If you are talking about Cocoon for survivability, then, you're not even talking about your enhancements for survivability, you're just saying, "PHEW, you made it to epic, now you can really heal, again! Here's you're standard ole frigging fleshie Cocoon, and there ya go. What? You don't want it for one of your twists? Well, that's too bad, if you want to live, it's going to be one of your twists, so deal with it! You will conform! Please drive thru."

Well, I'm sick of seeing Bladeforged everything, and Palemaster necros because feshies can't heal with anything, but wands and scrolls and pots. Then, you give us and SLA that works, and works JUST RIGHT, like bard healing, and then you take it away, and I'm like are you aoisegh kidding me?

Then, not only have you said that if you want to play a Warlock and have survivability, you pretty much need to go into the enlightened tree, whether you want to or not, and not just a little ways, but make it your main tree, and take both "healing" abilities, which supposedly get you through heroic content, which I can't possibly see how, going from healing to like a few hp every however many seconds it takes for them to come back, again? Cause those creatures' swings are going to wait for your ticks to catch up to their incoming damage so much.... not.

Quick scenario that everyone has been saying over and over and over and over and over and over, but you don't care, still with your temporary hit points:

Get some temporary hit points, great. Walk along, omgosh, it's and encounter. *HIT**HIT*. Bye bye temporary hit points. *HIT*. Uh, I'm getting hurt. *HIT* uhhhh, I'm getting hurt! *HIT!* SERIOUS, oh phew some more temporary.... *HIT!**HIT**HIT*. Bye bye temporary hit points. right back to where we were crapin our pants waiting for healing to come. *HIT!* *HIT!* ....... Dead. And, that's pretty much how it goes.

That's not healing, it's a joke until you have absurdly high Con. Or, now, is it a prerequisite to have T4/T5/Enlightened Spirit/Cocoon/and, now start with a very high Con? Because your proposed change is now setting the temporary hit points between 150hp and 300hp, depending on whether a Warlock starts with 10 or 20 Con. That's a massive difference in heroic survivability, and it's a massive difference in what you are able to do with your character due to stat limitations. Just making level 20 Warlocks and saying there, they are viable is not going to cut it.

Are you actually playing them at level 5, 10, 15, 20, and 28, or just 20 and 28? Cause I'm hearing feedback about level 20, and hearing a tone in the words of 'yeah, they sorta work now with A, B, C, and D going'. Well, that's great, but I don't want a character that comes with a bunch of boot straps.

So, now, you're locking in a second stat to the Warlock, locking a tree to them, locking specific enhancements to them, and of course, once again, in Epic the almighty, I win button so long as I'm not a moron and I have sp left, Cocoon.

Really, this is what you have in mind for all Warlock, really, this, fun! That's great, don't see any cookie cutting with dissatisfaction even at that.

Either make Warlocks survivable with their OWN abilities at all stages of the game, or don't and let them fall flat on their faces which is where youve just tripped them by taking away their healing. Cause those 20 seconds of healing amplification aren't going to do anything for me when I cant heal.

My god, I was just about to start a thread to rant about how horrible the range is on Eldritch Blast! How, you'll never hit things that are ranging you from way over yonder that are angering you off, that you should be able to hit with a blast type attack. It's no different than the rune arm's blasts, or ray spells, or other blasts that go far as hell, put something in a tree if you must to elongate the blast range, but it needs more range. And, how it doesn't break breakables, or breakdown doors, either, anyone like switching gear every other min? But, I come into the forum, and find this horrid nightmare instead.

Wongar
06-11-2015, 05:52 PM
Thinking about it more, I am really happy with tying the temp hit points to CON, especially given a Warlock can raise CON relatively easily providing some nice tradeoffs.

Consider:
Con from Enlightened Spirit (+2)
Con from Tenser's (+4)
Con from Souleater->Dark Feeding->Blood Feast (1d8+2)

Stacking these average 12 Con will make the newest versions of temp points much more valuable for somebody wanting to make the investment.

The enhancements providing more than twice the HP benefit per point of Con will also give Warlocks the best return for working in temp CON increases.


It's not unrealistic for a melee Warlock to have a CON of 50 - in Epics this translates to :

Brilliance (2 x CON): 100 HP per tick, 3000 HP per minute assuming 2 sec tick

Shining Through (15 x CON): 750 HP, 1500 HP per minute with 30 sec cooldown

Total: 4500 HP per minute, 3000 free and 1500 for 16 spell points/ 2 casts

A maximized/empowered cure moderate with an investment in healing amp & spell power hits for around 300 HP. So you would have needed to cast the CMW SLA a whopping 15 times a minute to get the same potential. (Consider what casting CMW every 4 seconds would do to your DPS)

I would much rather get the 4500 HP/min for 16 sp & 2 casts v. the 75 sp and 15 casts the CMW SLA would have taken.

Throw in something like Cocoon, Fast Healing, Renewal to keep you base hit points up in a fight and utilize the high UMD to scroll heal between fights or if you get in trouble and you have very good self sufficiency. Run close to someone with some passive healing like Radiant Servant enhancements or Ameliorating Strike and you should have no trouble keeping up base HP with little/no effort on your part. If running with a healer that heals - well good healing amp and large temp HP buffers will make life very easy on everyone.

Running numbers has given me very high hopes for these changes and am anxious to see how it actually plays,.

ZhenBuYaoShi
06-11-2015, 06:10 PM
I don't think you lack MRR on a warlock. Just for being pure you gain 25 MRR, as well as another 19 in the tree for 44 MRR while naked. With a 30 sheltering item and medium armor, a pure Enlightened Spirit sits at 104 MRR.

Who said all Warlocks are going to be pure? Most Warlocks in fact, will most likely NOT be pure, people like to multiclass, so there goes the 25 MRR from like 75% or more of Warlock builds. Okay, so if you strap Enlightened Spirit to Warlock, which we seem to be doing to the class, for some reason, because you know, the intended melee option tree was built to be strapped to all builds, of course.

As you can tell, this is annoying me to no end.

STOP PUTTING NECESSARY STIPULATIONS ON THE WARLOCKS' BUILD IN ORDER TO BE VIABLE, if you're going to do this, just build them right in to the **** characters at character creation, and put something else in the trees, cause if we need these things just to live, then they aren't choices.

ZhenBuYaoShi
06-11-2015, 06:20 PM
Not in love with temp hit points regardless how many there are or how frequently they replenish. It's starting to feel like Master Chief's shield in the original Halo. You'd be running around with a full shield but a tiny red sliver of actual hp, and it would be super annoying.

If Warlocks can't self-heal with positive energy because of flavor reasons -- at their core they're evil -- then give them evil self-healing. Let them steal the life of living enemies. Scale the ability to be less healing than you would if the ability only healed them, but keep in mind that the bloated bags of hp in epics could heal a player 100 times over so don't fret too much about the damage side.

Something like:

Lifestealing
Cost: 12 spell points (echoes)
Cooldown: 12 seconds (maybe 15?)
Metamagics: ???
Range: Medium? (like a fireball without enlarge)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
Effect: Target one enemy to steal their essence, inflicting 1d6 evil damage per warlock level while healing yourself by the same amount. Boosted by evil (alignment) spellpower and crits.

Or whatever numbers makes sense. Despite being an evil alignment power, it would still effect evil mobs. (Like an archdevil sucking the life out of its minions.) It would be neither positive nor negative, so would sidestep the undead issue, both when targeting undead as well as when being undead yourself.

This is the right direction, not that other stuff you been talking about with temporary hp. THIS! LOOK IN THIS DIRECTION RIGHT HERE!

Red_Knight
06-11-2015, 06:40 PM
Okay, after messing around a little with the changes I've got to say... I'm rather meh on Brilliance. Running epic normal it feels like too little too late. It's like being hit with an Cure Serious Wounds that isn't maximized, empowered, and with no amp or spellpower affecting it. Sure it's giving me 40 HP every two seconds. But enemies are dealing 36 to 60 damage every second. And that's after factoring in my PRR, displacement, and AC (which is providing about 53% defense chance at level).

On the other hand, they did fix the Shield enhancement. Could that one be moved lower in the tree? The immunity to magic missile aspect stops being relevant by the time start running CR 5 quests.

Rhysem
06-11-2015, 10:11 PM
Feels great on EH. Feels weak on EE against heavy melee types like trolls. (Edit: I was running a warlock 18 / fvs 2 melee pbaoe mix like the tree seems to want you to.)

It is a nicely different play style to run in and start throwing PBAoEs, with a fallback to EB or chain EB if I need ranged.

Given mobs like to run away from you so much it is a real shame that enlarge is for range, not for area, just to make them a bit more easy to use.

Exiledtyrant
06-11-2015, 10:36 PM
So this capstone is just a better version of the EK capstone that's always one?

Dunklerlindwurm
06-12-2015, 04:05 AM
On the other hand, they did fix the Shield enhancement. Could that one be moved lower in the tree? The immunity to magic missile aspect stops being relevant by the time start running CR 5 quests.


Dont know what game you are playing.

But i know several high level Quests where Champions hit you for 5X 30-40 damage with magic missiles or even more.

I would not call that not relevant. Especially if there are more than 1 enemy caster doing that.

cru121
06-12-2015, 06:11 AM
Feels great on EH. Feels weak on EE against heavy melee types like trolls. (Edit: I was running a warlock 18 / fvs 2 melee pbaoe mix like the tree seems to want you to.)
It is a nicely different play style to run in and start throwing PBAoEs, with a fallback to EB or chain EB if I need ranged.
Given mobs like to run away from you so much it is a real shame that enlarge is for range, not for area, just to make them a bit more easy to use.

Dilate Aura
Prerequisite(s): Aura Ability
Benefit: Once per encounter, you can double the range of your aura. The expanded aura lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier (Min 1).
Source: Fiendish Codex II

Would be nice...


Dont know what game you are playing.
But i know several high level Quests where Champions hit you for 5X 30-40 damage with magic missiles or even more.
I would not call that not relevant. Especially if there are more than 1 enemy caster doing that.

Agreed, undispellable Shield is nice.

Rhysem
06-12-2015, 08:51 AM
Dilate Aura
Prerequisite(s): Aura Ability
Benefit: Once per encounter, you can double the range of your aura. The expanded aura lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier (Min 1).
Source: Fiendish Codex II

Would be nice...


I was thinking more like a 1.25 to 1.5x permanent increase.

D&D ranges and spells are set for human scale things, since that's what GMs generally put in. Corridors are 5 or 10 feet wide, rooms are 20 to 30 unless it is a great all/cave/open plains, not the 20 to 30 feet wide that is more standard in ddo.

It isn't like a larger area lets you kill more mobs -- those are spaced out in separate encounters and mobs in ddo don't herd worth a hoot anyway, so trying that is largely a fail. (I know, I've tried!)

Red_Knight
06-12-2015, 12:53 PM
Dont know what game you are playing.

But i know several high level Quests where Champions hit you for 5X 30-40 damage with magic missiles or even more.

I would not call that not relevant. Especially if there are more than 1 enemy caster doing that.

Not personally seen magic missile from high level casters. Lightning bolts, fireballs, and acid arrow sure. But not magic missile. Those seem to stop once enemies are CR 5.

Well, maybe the casters in Proof is in the poison. But even they favor lightning bolt on Elite.

SableShadow
06-12-2015, 01:10 PM
Not personally seen magic missile from high level casters. Lightning bolts, fireballs, and acid arrow sure. But not magic missile. Those seem to stop once enemies are CR 5.

Well, maybe the casters in Proof is in the poison. But even they favor lightning bolt on Elite.

Efreeti will hit you with it, as will some drow casters if given the chance.
Not a complete list, just off the top of my head, stuff I've run into recently.

Red_Knight
06-12-2015, 01:32 PM
Efreeti will hit you with it, as will some drow casters if given the chance.
Not a complete list, just off the top of my head, stuff I've run into recently.

Maybe the issue is I try not to give casters that chance? They're usually my first target in combat. And on my monk I tend to use stunning fist on any drow wizards or priestesses I come across asap. Or I flat out kill them if possible with the insta kill ki punch. And the few efreeti I've ran into spent the entire fight as a jade statue. As such they usually only get 1 or 2 spells off before I find and shut them down.

Dorian
06-12-2015, 02:36 PM
Efreeti will hit you with it, as will some drow casters if given the chance.
Not a complete list, just off the top of my head, stuff I've run into recently.

Champion Quells in the Orchard quests... those magic missiles hurt... and they spam them at you :(

SableShadow
06-12-2015, 03:37 PM
Champion Quells in the Orchard quests... those magic missiles hurt... and they spam them at you :(

Oh yeah! Those quell so 'n so's! Dispelling my shield spell, too! :(

EllisDee37
06-12-2015, 05:54 PM
I hate not having nightshield on my characters that don't have it.

Other sources of magic missiles are drow casters in MotU, and ice mephits anywhere.

Rhysem
06-12-2015, 07:16 PM
A further thought on Enlightened Spirit.

Maybe too late for release, but it would be nice to do something about their spellpower problem. By which I mean, you need Light, you need Force (or Evil), and you need one of Sonic/Fire/Acid. Its like MAD but for spells.

Wizards need (potentially, depending on spell choices) a lot of different spell powers, but not usually at the same time. They can switch out which they're using, and there's lots of spells of each element (and force) to use. They can switch weapons depending on what spell they are about to cast, what spells they have in their loadout, or use any of the multi-elemental type casters (of which there's a few).

The ES warlock needs all their spellpowers all the time. They are unrelated so you don't much find gear with multiple of them on it (there are some -- luminous truth if you're fiend pact). That means you need to get one of them from USP, or from a non-weapon. For fire that's vaguely passable, as long as you don't mind grinding out cannith challenges till your eyes bleed. Cannith crafting can help any till the 7-9 range. After that I think you're on your own. Could use better itemization, or a talent somewhere to make force count for itself and one other spell power, your choice of the available options.

gwonbush
06-12-2015, 07:25 PM
There's a cannith challenge item for each pact type. Cloak of Flames for Fiend, Rock Boots for Great Old One, and Blasting Chime for Fey. You can also use the Utterdark Essence to change your force damage type to Evil, which falls under light-based spellpower.

Rhysem
06-12-2015, 08:24 PM
There's a cannith challenge item for each pact type. Cloak of Flames for Fiend, Rock Boots for Great Old One, and Blasting Chime for Fey. You can also use the Utterdark Essence to change your force damage type to Evil, which falls under light-based spellpower.

Hmm, I forgot about the boots and chime. That's actually nice, possibly better slots to expend on that. They only go up to 20 though, and cap out at 90 spell power.

Utterdark... it works, but it feels very wrong on an enlightened spirit, no?

Infiltraitor
06-12-2015, 10:42 PM
After more discussion and feedback from this thread, adjusting Brilliance again to:

Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with a Determination bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal to your Constitution score. If you are level 20 or higher, this effect is doubled.

This should bring a more even scaling across Heroic and Epic.

I've finished testing on lamma, the issue that I am having is that Brilliance HP is deducted AFTER Shining Through HP. It is still fairly nice though as is.

GeoffWatson
06-12-2015, 11:00 PM
Not personally seen magic missile from high level casters. Lightning bolts, fireballs, and acid arrow sure. But not magic missile. Those seem to stop once enemies are CR 5.

Well, maybe the casters in Proof is in the poison. But even they favor lightning bolt on Elite.

Lots of Epic casters use it.
I notice it because most spell damage types are ignored with Evasion and MRR.

The Champions that add extra damage on every hit are exceptionally nasty with MM. Some do over a hundred with each missile.

dozkal-mo
06-13-2015, 02:02 AM
Build tested: 20 Warlock/8 Epic/5 Exalted Angel (Twists: Energy Burst Fire, Natural Shielding, Rejuv Cocoon), main focus in Enlightened Spirit (58 AP), some points in Tainted Scholar (22 AP). Fiend Pact (Three words, kids: Hurl. Through. Hell.) Sword and board, medium armor. Standing at 110 PRR and 114 MRR (holy cow), 760 HP, 2611 SP. Past lives: 3x Sorc, 3x Wiz, 3x Fvs, 3x Clr.

Shining Through: Amazing. I get so many temp HP that stack on my max HP that I've got a ton and able to handle harder hits. This plus the PRR/MRR from the class and displacement SLA and I'm pretty survivable. This makes recovering from a really hard hit a lot easier as it gives me time to get a couple heals off. The 30 second cooldown struck me as just right; it means I need to use it wisely when things are starting to get hairy.

Brilliance is...well, I think it's...hmm. I think it's ok as is, but to make it effective will require better party strategy in EE and stronger dedication to Con. As long as Brilliance goes off every 2 seconds, I think this thing can be used to great effect. There will definitely be situations where it's not going to mean much if anything, but those are probably pretty bad situations already (totally mobbed). I'm still on the fence about this, though.

Summon Boosts: I will say they do go a ways to making my Hezrou more survivable, but there's still a severe issue here: either my summons need to be beefier to deal a LOT more damage (it was pretty sad on Epic Hard VoN3) and/or we need epic summons. I know you can get that one out of Magister but for me...they aren't that strong. The 30 melee power was a nice bonus, but I'm more than sweeping aside enemies before my Hezrou can really do anything, though all he really seems to do is throw chaos hammers and rocks; can we somehow pump the **** out of their CR to make them reminiscent of the Hezrou we fight? Even with these really solid boosts I don't see summons making a strong stand in Epic content; their DPS is just so weak I actually forgot to resummon him. It kinda made me sad. I even took Augment Summoning for him. I looked into Primal Avatar to help with that, but my first thought was literally, "Eh....I'd sacrifice waaaay too much in my main class to focus on summons that aren't going to make up for the damage/self healing I can do in Exalted Angel." Also note here: I did not test this with any hirelings, so those could be a lot better...or not; the AI of the hirelings is also pretty important.

I like the various damage I'm constantly throwing out with my aura, burst, and blast. I need to remember to boost multiple types of spell power to make them effective, as well as get spell crit chance bonuses. Careful gear selection will go a long way here, I think. The adaptability of my blast via shapes and damage type is pretty solid...I'm a fan of the versatility of it. I did find at a couple points where going from my aura back to the ranged attack worked better for me.

So far I've had a lot of fun with this class; the lack of direct damage spells means I need to play a bit differently. One of my favorite things was still having my standard attack against Beholders with no issue; I didn't think about that ahead of time, but it really helped out a lot. I do some solid damage, I've got some good debuffing and CC, and I have great defenses, especially for a casting class...so overall I'm happy and I look forward to the live version. I've also been a bit torn on which Destiny to stand in and what to twist (which is a very very good thing). I'm still not fully sure about the best feat progression, but it seems like it would vary with whatever I want to focus on, so I didn't feel like all or most of my feats were spoken for, thanks to metas not being helpful to the eldritch blasts (also a very good thing!). Understanding that this class doesn't function like the typical caster is pretty important here; I will next be trying a more caster/nuke focus, which I believe is going to be a lot more damage but a tad squishier. :)

Suggestions:
- Make summons scale into Epic. You can boost them well like you've done here, but the foundation isn't strong enough for epic content, even EH. Either access to new summons that are reaaaally powerful or boost them massively via an Epic feat, a high tier SLA for new powerful summons, or big bonuses based on the number of your epic and/or warlock levels.
- Keep looking at Brilliance; I'm still not sure on this one, but I think it's close to either being good or needing to be scrapped.
- A tracker somewhere on the Character sheet or Inventory that shows what my Blast die totals are, different types of damage in it, and current active effects adjusting it (essences, confusion effects, etc.).
- Start getting more gear out there that is useful for Warlocks; my choice of medium armor wasn't that large, though the Epic Chain of Conviction was nice (then again, there's a lot of old Epic gear that's super outdated, but that's another thread altogether). You could maybe get some good boosts to warlocks in the form of extra dies in the blasts, summon boosts, false life boosts, etc in gear.
- Give me an incentive to attack with my aura on; the capstone is very nice, don't get me wrong, but I never swung my sword; I was too busy spamming other things. I need to feel like I'm gaining something worth the loss of not doing spells/bursts. I wish I had a good suggestion of what to do here, but I'm afraid I don't.

I know a fair amount of this can be addressed through multiclassing but I tend to stick to pure builds.

Xerio
06-14-2015, 01:20 AM
Any chance of a melee weapon shape that is single target (or cleave) damage? The aura is nice but there are situations where is causes more harm than good.
Side note, the aura continues to murder things while you are invis and does NOT break invis..

Brilliance feels just shy of being something great, maybe heals warlock for 10% of shield generated every X seconds? nothing huge but enough to give it that extra little push.
Shining through is working out brilliantly, gives you enough health to stagger off damage while not necessarily nursing scrolls or pots. Gives the player cause of pause and thought.

Aletys
06-14-2015, 04:00 PM
***An updated version of Brilliance and Shining Through can be found in this post:***
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461301-Enlightened-Spirit-Changes?p=5629378&viewfull=1#post5629378 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461301-Enlightened-Spirit-Changes?p=5629378&viewfull=1#post5629378)



Hey, everyone! We wanted to let you know about some upcoming changes in the Enlightened Spirit enhancement tree ahead of them being in Lamannia release notes. As many of you know, Lamannia is an early look at our plans for an update, and during that process, we get feedback from a variety of sources. Sometimes, certain kinds of feedback require us to heavily change or remove certain abilities that have already appeared on Lamannia or in dev posts.


In this case, the abilities Break Forth, Cure Moderate Wounds SLA, and Power of Enlightenment: Positive have been removed from the Enlightened Spirit tree. We recognize that many (most?) of you like these abilities, and their removal creates some questions about survivability of Warlocks, especially ones primarily in this tree.


We’re currently planning to add the following abilities:

Tier 4 (replacing CMW SLA):


Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with Temporary HP equal 10+(Warlock Level) every time it ticks. These Temporary HP stack with all sources other than Brilliance itself.


Tier 5 (replacing Break Forth):


Shining Through: (Target: Self) Gain 100 Temporary HP which last for ten minutes. Each Epic level adds an additional +25. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)


We’re very interested in making sure these abilities are worth investing in, and would appreciate your feedback on them. Power of Enlightenment: Positive was on a multiselector with the Light version; our current plan is to leave the Light version on its own. On a separate note, we’ve made some adjustments to the last two Core abilities of Enlightened Spirit:

Previously:


Level 18: Spirit Armor: When your Eldritch Aura is active, each time you are hit by an attack, you gain a stack of Spirit Armor. (Spirit Armor: +1 stacking PRR and MRR. Stacks up to 20 times.) Passive: Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.



Level 20: Celestial Spirit: +2 CON, +2 CHA.Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage, and you gain 10 Melee Power, Ranged Power, and Universal Spell Power.


New:


Level 18: Celestial Spirit: Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage. Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.



Level 20: Ultimate Enlightenment: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Celestial Spirit is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.


Removing the Break Forth & Cure Moderate SLA's will pretty much remove any interest I have in playing this class, as it made the class viable for me. I also am not a fan of temporary hit points, and find them rather weak & useless.

Thumbs down for me.

Seikojin
06-14-2015, 05:45 PM
***An updated version of Brilliance and Shining Through can be found in this post:***
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461301-Enlightened-Spirit-Changes?p=5629378&viewfull=1#post5629378 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461301-Enlightened-Spirit-Changes?p=5629378&viewfull=1#post5629378)



Hey, everyone! We wanted to let you know about some upcoming changes in the Enlightened Spirit enhancement tree ahead of them being in Lamannia release notes. As many of you know, Lamannia is an early look at our plans for an update, and during that process, we get feedback from a variety of sources. Sometimes, certain kinds of feedback require us to heavily change or remove certain abilities that have already appeared on Lamannia or in dev posts.


In this case, the abilities Break Forth, Cure Moderate Wounds SLA, and Power of Enlightenment: Positive have been removed from the Enlightened Spirit tree. We recognize that many (most?) of you like these abilities, and their removal creates some questions about survivability of Warlocks, especially ones primarily in this tree.


We’re currently planning to add the following abilities:

Tier 4 (replacing CMW SLA):


Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with Temporary HP equal 10+(Warlock Level) every time it ticks. These Temporary HP stack with all sources other than Brilliance itself.


Tier 5 (replacing Break Forth):


Shining Through: (Target: Self) Gain 100 Temporary HP which last for ten minutes. Each Epic level adds an additional +25. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)


We’re very interested in making sure these abilities are worth investing in, and would appreciate your feedback on them. Power of Enlightenment: Positive was on a multiselector with the Light version; our current plan is to leave the Light version on its own. On a separate note, we’ve made some adjustments to the last two Core abilities of Enlightened Spirit:

Previously:


Level 18: Spirit Armor: When your Eldritch Aura is active, each time you are hit by an attack, you gain a stack of Spirit Armor. (Spirit Armor: +1 stacking PRR and MRR. Stacks up to 20 times.) Passive: Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.



Level 20: Celestial Spirit: +2 CON, +2 CHA.Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage, and you gain 10 Melee Power, Ranged Power, and Universal Spell Power.


New:


Level 18: Celestial Spirit: Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage. Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds.



Level 20: Ultimate Enlightenment: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Celestial Spirit is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.


When I first saw the changes I was bummed. However looking at it a second time I am more pleased. The warlock is not supposed to be a arcane cleric, so it seems befitting that instead of healing, it gets a temp hp booster. And the fact that it ticks with your aura and is buffed by other Eb die increasers, makes it really useful for in melee warlocks. So in the end, I think it will be a great addition. Barb warlock can be a real thing now.

I also really like the changes to the cores. I am sensing a pretty good 18/2 set of builds that have strong auras and some utility from 2 levels of things like rogues, or monk.

Rhysem
06-14-2015, 10:31 PM
When I first saw the changes I was bummed. However looking at it a second time I am more pleased. The warlock is not supposed to be a arcane cleric, so it seems befitting that instead of healing, it gets a temp hp booster. And the fact that it ticks with your aura and is buffed by other Eb die increasers, makes it really useful for in melee warlocks. So in the end, I think it will be a great addition. Barb warlock can be a real thing now.

I also really like the changes to the cores. I am sensing a pretty good 18/2 set of builds that have strong auras and some utility from 2 levels of things like rogues, or monk.

Unfortunately that isn't the current version. The actual current version is con score temp hp, or 2x con score at epic levels. If it was even con + aura dice, or a straight up 10x aura dice for more even scaling (20x may be a bit much, especially with the +1-2 dice of talents and +4 dice as feats now) would be better for the vast majority of players.

It worked okay in an easy EE for me, but I don't think its going to work okay in the harder ones.

You're right it makes warlock/barb a thing, especially if said character is a dwarf or warforged. Unfortunately it makes the warlock/barb's aura strictly better than a pure warlock, which is not right.

Rhysem
06-14-2015, 11:21 PM
This only dawned on me tonight, replying to others saying ES's aura at low levels was worthless -- duh, of course, I should have seen that to start with -- dps = damage * ticks per second. Damage rises with dice, rises with level. Ticks per second rises with level (1/5 = 0.2 tick per second, 1/4 = 0.25, 0.33, 0.5). Multiply them out and you get d6(level) * ticks(level) or d6ticks(level * level) -- DOH.

Meaning even if it worked fine for me at 18 warlock in epic, the damage part is essentially worthless at (warlock) level < 12.

Not sure how to fix it. If you just tick at every 2 seconds from the start, 4 levels of warlock is OP on a raging 16 dwarf/WF barb who's con nearing in to 60+ (70+? 130+ of the crazy dwarf max hp builds?) -- much more reasonable ticking every 5 there. But boosting the aura damage means it'd be a bit op by the time a pure warlock is ticking it every 2 seconds.

If brilliance was tied to a f(level) of warlock rather than a base stat (like it was back when 20x eb die), then it could just tick every 2 and the barb wouldn't be as good as a pure warlock, which is probably how it should be.

Tick every 2, brilliance as 10x eb die temp hp? With the feats, you can now boost the eb die even as a non-pure warlock -- if you choose them -- and that's always a good sign of balance (tradeoffs). Its a bit more than the 2x con (not unreasonable to expect that in the 70-100 range, vs 10x eb in the 90-150 range for a pure), but requires investment.

Skavenaps
06-15-2015, 04:44 AM
The new changes made temp HP viable even at EE. I don't miss the cure SLA (and you still have lots of the traditional healing methods like wands, pots and so).

It doesnt fill right healing as a lock. Feels right granting false life. Great job there!

ES at low levels is really underpowered.. but well enhancement respect is cheap so i plan go with soul eater till mid lvls.

Aletys
06-15-2015, 04:13 PM
While I have not ready every single post, most of the ones I've read where the poster is happy with the removal of the healing abilities are those who plan to use warlock as a splash with bard or something else. If the class is not viable as a pure class (which means it needs some self-healing ability, which even barbarians have now), then it does not belong as a class, but rather as an additional set of enhancement trees (eg: harper's tree).

I personally prefer to play pure classes, at least the first time through. Make it too much of a pain to play a pure class, & I won't be purchasing it.

Drakos
06-15-2015, 05:38 PM
While I have not ready every single post, most of the ones I've read where the poster is happy with the removal of the healing abilities are those who plan to use warlock as a splash with bard or something else. If the class is not viable as a pure class (which means it needs some self-healing ability, which even barbarians have now), then it does not belong as a class, but rather as an additional set of enhancement trees (eg: harper's tree). I personally prefer to play pure classes, at least the first time through. Make it too much of a pain to play a pure class, & I won't be purchasing it.Personally, I think that the no healing in class for a pure Warlock is a good direction. The temporary HP feels more appropriate and will suffice until you can take a minute a few seconds to scroll or wand heal via UMD.

Genebob
06-17-2015, 12:37 AM
Hey something nifty about brilliance that I just figured out... removes the need for underwater action items. :)

Not a big deal I know but unexpected benefits are always good.

Xerio
06-17-2015, 08:41 AM
Hey something nifty about brilliance that I just figured out... removes the need for underwater action items. :)

Not a big deal I know but unexpected benefits are always good.

snicker, allows for lava walking/swimming without worry too

Xerio
06-17-2015, 08:47 AM
While I have not ready every single post, most of the ones I've read where the poster is happy with the removal of the healing abilities are those who plan to use warlock as a splash with bard or something else. If the class is not viable as a pure class (which means it needs some self-healing ability, which even barbarians have now), then it does not belong as a class, but rather as an additional set of enhancement trees (eg: harper's tree).

I personally prefer to play pure classes, at least the first time through. Make it too much of a pain to play a pure class, & I won't be purchasing it.

I've tested the class extensively as a pure warlock 48pnts in enlightened spirit, 22 in tainted the remaining in soul. It functions fine with the temp HP, granted you take a different approach to combat than traditional but I've found that for the most part this is a positive change. I'm more likely to stay in the fray those few extra second till it's dead. the Temp HP gives a nice buffer to prepare healing items/potions while in combat. In epics particularly EH and more so in EE I tend to pick my battles rather than charging in blindly and again I'm fine with that. It's a warlock, not a barbarian. Though the DPS for red named is very low, I'm able to move at a solid pace through the dungeon up to that point. A few extra second beating down BadassBossBaddie001 is an acceptable trade off.

All in all I'm rather happy with the balance from the melee stand-point of the class. I've yet to have the time to extensively test the caster/ranged build.

dozkal-mo
06-17-2015, 02:25 PM
Removing the Break Forth & Cure Moderate SLA's will pretty much remove any interest I have in playing this class, as it made the class viable for me. I also am not a fan of temporary hit points, and find them rather weak & useless.

Thumbs down for me.

Then you really need to try playing the class as well as understand that Warlocks are not supposed to do positive based spells. They are not divine. The class is perfectly viable without the positive spells, so please try the class out as it's meant to be in order to provide some constructive feedback. Besides, the temp HP amounts in this class are huge and a lot of folks seem to keep forgetting about Exalted Angel for some reason.

EllisDee37
06-17-2015, 05:22 PM
try the class out as it's meant to be in order to provide some constructive feedbackHow's heroic leveling? Do you need to drag a hireling along, or is it just an endless cure serious drinking contest until you finally get enough umd to reliably heal scroll? (I hate both: cure pots and heal scrolls annoy me to no end if those are my only healing.)

Failedlegend
06-17-2015, 05:41 PM
Probably a little late but here goes



Eldritch Aura: Stance: While this is active, your Eldritch Blast changes into an aura. It deals the same damage as your Eldritch Blast to all foes in range every 5 seconds. You cannot fire Eldritch Blasts while in this stance, but may attack normally with weapons and cast spells.

This shape completely changes the way you play Warlocks I LOVE IT, that said I'd like to see this become a Multi-selector so Ranged weapon users can have their fun too

ie. Holy Fire(SLA): Create a PAOE that is centered on your target that lasts for 30seconds + 5 seconds per ES Core. Only one may exist at a time casting the SLA again just moves it. Deals the same damage as your Eldritch blast would except as light. (obviously this requires you to have your EB off to use your ranged weapon)



Aura of Courage: You gain immunity to Fear, and all allies around you gain a +4 morale bonus to saving throws against fear. Passive: +5 Healing Amp

The immunity to fear doesn't seem to be functioning but other than that a good thematic core



Shape Vestments: While wearing Light Armor, you gain +10 Maximum HP and +5 MRR. While wearing Medium Armor you are proficient with, you gain +20 Maximum HP and +10 MRR. Passive: Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 4 seconds.

Being than "vestments" usually refers to clothing I'd like to see this affect Cloth/Outfits as well



Aura of Menace: Toggle: You project a 15 meter Aura of Menace, decreasing the saving throws, attack, and armor class of nearby enemies by 2. Passive: Your Eldritch Aura now affects enemies every 2 seconds. Passive: You gain proficiency with all Martial weapons.

This doesn't really fit thematically ES is all about embracing the good and light, the Aura of manace does not suit that at all...maybe replace this with a Resurrection SLA or something?

Oh and the martial prof doesn't work...it's a good idea though although Lvl 12 is a little late...move to core 6 maybe?



Celestial Spirit: +2 CON, +2 CHA. Toggle: When enabled, you float above the ground, gain Feather Falling, and are immune to knockdown effects. When enabled, your Eldritch Blasts gain 3d6 Light damage, and you gain 10 Melee Power, Ranged Power, and Universal Spell Power.

Huge fan of the Palemaster hover so I'm glad to see it show up elsewhere...any chance we can get a miniaturized version of the Paladin Defender stance wings whilst in form?

Aside from the cool animation this is quite potent.



Ultimate Enlightenment: +2 Constitution and Charisma. While your Celestial Spirit is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to maximum hit points, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, Ranged Power, and Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.


Now THIS is a capstone :D It makes even the currently OP Divine Grace a hard sell (please go ahead with the plan to make Divine grace 2 + 3*Pally Lvl)



Resilience of Body: +2/4/6 PRR
Resilience of Soul: +2/4/6 MRR


Perfect



Spiritual Defense: While your Eldritch Aura is active, you and nearby allies get a +1/2/3 bonus to AC. You personally receive 5/10/15 Maximum Hit Points.
Spiritual Bastion: While your Eldritch Aura is active, you get +3/6/10 PRR, and nearby allies get +1/2/3 PRR.
Spiritual Ward: While your Eldritch Aura is active, you get +3/6/10 MRR, and nearby allies get +1/2/3 MRR.
Beacon: While your Eldritch Aura is active, all allies within your Aura gain +10 Healing Amp. You personally receive an additional +10 Healing Amp.


Love this line, makes you a walking buff will be very popular with groups




Brutality: Multiselector: Brute Fighting (attacks)/Brutal Spellcasting (spells) Toggle: Your damaging (attacks/spells) generate [25/50/75]% more hate than they normally would, making enemies more likely to attack you.

Any chance we can make this...

Eldritch Presence (Toggle): Your damaging attacks AND spells generate [25/50/75]% more hate than they normally would, making enemies more likely to attack you.



Rewards of Tribute: +1/2/3 Heal, Balance, and Intimidate. Rank 3: +1 Fortitude Save


Perfect Tanky/Light User skills.



Resist Energy SLA: Resist Energy. As an SLA.

VERY expensive, especially for an SLA and ESPECIALLY for a Lock. I'm sure you mentioned you plan to lower the cost so we shall see.



Shield: You permanently gain the effects of the Shield spell.

Nice effect...even if you are using a shield the immunity to magic missile is always nice (although I'd like to see this extended to the whole "missile" line)



Action Boost: Defense: Activate to gain a +[5/10/15] Action Boost bonus to Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds.)

Don't like action boosts, moving on.



Eldritch Burst: Fire your Eldritch Blast in an AOE centered on you. All enemies caught in the burst take 3d6 Light Damage that scales with Spell Power, plus any other effects and damage your Eldritch Blasts produce. This ability shares a cooldown with Cleave. (Cooldown: 8/6/5 Seconds).

Spirit Blast: Fire your Eldritch Blast in an AOE centered on you. All enemies caught in the burst take 10d6 Light Damage that scales with spell power, plus any other effects and damage your Eldritch Blasts produce. This ability shares a cooldown with Great Cleave. (Cooldown: 8/6/5 Seconds).


Woot spirit cleaves :D



CON/CHA

Perfect Stat choices.




Medium Armor Proficiency: Passive: You gain proficiency in Medium Armor, and the ability to cast arcane spells in medium armor without arcane spell failure.

Cool, people might actually use Medium armor now (since ES Locks can't wear heavy effectively).




Spiritual Retribution: Your Eldritch Blasts, Melee Attacks, and Ranged Attacks gain 1d6/2d6/3d6 Light damage that scales with Spell Power.


I really like this, very thematic and potent




Brilliance: Your Aura provides you and nearby allies with a Determination bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal 20x the number of base Eldritch Blast Dice you have.

This will be VERY welcome to parties...it's like another for of DR....except of useful values.




Fortify Summons: Your summoned creatures, hirelings, and pets get +25/50/100% fortification, 5/10/15 PRR, and 5/10/15 MRR.
Imbue Summons: Your summoned creatures/hirelings/pets gain 10/20/30 Melee, Ranged, and Universal Spell Power
Displace Summons: Your summoned creatures/hirelings/pets gain a permanent 25% Concealment, as per the item effect "Lesser Displacement", and 10% Dodge.


This is a waste of space and coding the summon spells are useless and until they scale with character level or something no amount of buffs will keep them alive. That said take this code and save it for when you update the Arty/druid dogs to the current enhancement system. To have summons actually be worth it would take alot


Step 1. Remove ALL summon related enhancements from PC trees (ie. Palemaster, Arachnotech, Enlightened Scholar,etc.)
Step 2. Upgrade Druid & Arty Dogs to the new enhancement system (three trees mainly Tank, DPS, Tactics)
Step 3. Grant a "Full" Skeleton Pet to Palemasters (3 trees = Mage, Knight, Archer)
Optional Step 4. Add a "Summoner" Class-less enhancement tree similar to Harper for people who want to build pure summoners...core 1 grants a "Full" summon.
Alternative Step 4. Add a Summoner Class, focus it's abilities primarily on the summon, have a variuety of summons to choose from, it's spells should mainly be buffs to boost both it's Summon and his allies. That said I'd call it's main summon something different like Guardian or something to differentiate it.

Step 1-3 would make a world of difference, and step 4 would be a nice option to spend Player AP without wasting space in class enhancement trees for random summon boosters

Sidenote: You can add one summon related enhancement though...Core 1 Arcanotech add your summoned construct is now a Spider...rename tree Arachnotech.



Shining Through: Gain a Sacred bonus to Temporary Hitpoints equal to 15x your Constitution Score that last for up to 10 minutes. For 20 seconds, you gain +25 Sacred bonus to Healing Amplification. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds. SP Cost: 8)

I was disappointed there was no Con-based option for Locks but this is nice :D



Displacement SLA: Displacement, as an SLA.

I'll take this :D


Well I guess the only question remains is do I make my Vanguard/Swashbuckler, An Enlightened Spirit/Sacred Defender/KOTC or a Single Class Enlightened Spirit (with a little tainted) for my "Eldritch Knight" build?

Actually if you guys go through with arbitrary alignment limits ES/SD/KOTC is out since the plan is to go Fire/Light (Fiend/ES) than go into Divine Crusader and call it the "Crimson Knight" (as in the Crimson Legion a group of Lawful Good Paladin Warlock who use their pacts with Asmodeus (a fiend) against him and any other evils)

dozkal-mo
06-17-2015, 07:32 PM
How's heroic leveling? Do you need to drag a hireling along, or is it just an endless cure serious drinking contest until you finally get enough umd to reliably heal scroll? (I hate both: cure pots and heal scrolls annoy me to no end if those are my only healing.)

I honestly didn't have a lot of time to test on Lama, so I took her straight to 28 to save some time. However when I did my TRs I never had an issue using hirelings or pots to keep myself alive.

Failedlegend
06-17-2015, 07:54 PM
Warlocks are not supposed to do positive based spells. They are not divine. The class is perfectly viable without the positive spells, so please try the class out as it's meant to be in order to provide some constructive feedback. Besides, the temp HP amounts in this class are huge and a lot of folks seem to keep forgetting about Exalted Angel for some reason.

Base Warlock no but this is "Enlightened Spirit" it's packed with healing and light damage..seriously just look at the prestige. That said I don't think ES needs healing the THP is plenty and Locks are the masters of UMD.

Unfortunately leveling naturally from 1 - 20 is not something i have time for on lama. (it's takes me months to a year to level a single character, rough case of altitis) I did run it through several quests at different levels and whilst it's definitely not invincible Enlightened spirit Locks are quite hardy if built for it.

As for their "Power Source" thats a little wishy washy it could technically fall under divine, arcane, primal or all 3 depending on the pact. I kinda hope that the devs can figure out a way for Warlocks to choose any ED since they really don't just fit in one. (and selfishly a Fiend -> Enlightened Spirit fits thematically best with divine. Beyond that Fey = Primal and Old One = Planar? Maybe Divine or Arcane.)

Actually I really wish the community didn't scream so hard at Varg, his idea for moving DCs to Epic levels would have solved this problem perfectly because than it really wouldn't matter where they start (although martial would at least make it the easiest to travel to the other 3 spheres)...actually that thread has some great ideas I hope Varg is still following it and Epic Level Spell DCs is still a possibility

dozkal-mo
06-17-2015, 08:27 PM
Base Warlock no but this is "Enlightened Spirit" it's packed with healing and light damage..seriously just look at the prestige. That said I don't think ES needs healing the THP is plenty and Locks are the masters of UMD.

I certainly don't disagree with you, but I'm not sure to which part of my statement you're replying.

ES is very good at cap, but I'm also curious about leveling it.

Failedlegend
06-17-2015, 08:41 PM
I certainly don't disagree with you, but I'm not sure to which part of my statement you're replying.

ES is very good at cap, but I'm also curious about leveling it.

Huh...that's weird...I quoted the wrong post...guess I need some sleep.

Edit: Fixed it now (and added some more)