PDA

View Full Version : Monk Pass suggestions



DrawingGuy
06-05-2015, 08:14 PM
I've been playing Monk since the minute the servers went live with them. Their complexity and fun attack animation placed them solidly in my favorite class to play. Respectable damage and strong innate survivability made them very popular. As Monk is also very front-loaded with all feats, evasion, dodge, and concealment options happening in the first 6 levels, they became an indespensible splash after the first pass to defenses. Their damage began to fall to the wayside with EDs and mechanics not working with unarmed, but when you could snag all of the survivability with a splash and the DPS from casting/fighter levels, why not? Quivering Palm came and went in the flash of a single update, and then the second defensive pass happened and the class passes started. Monk utility (other than Stunning Fist) has always lagged being faced with low DCs, and now with pure Monks (especially unarmed) lagging in all respects they're definitely in need of a pass themselves.

I thought I would take a stab at what I would like to see in the Monk pass. This includes general changes, Finishing moves, and enhancement passes. While I'm not really a fan of power climb, some is inevitable from bringing what should have always existed into relevance, and some from attempting to match the existing power climb that has happened in the other class passes. Note that these numbers have not been balanced or tested in any way, so may be horribly over-powered or still under-powered. This is simply a thought experiment to give players and devs a place to start thinking.

White text is how it already exists in game. Red text are new suggestions. Will just type (no change) for when I think no change is needed. Refer to in-game or the wiki for skill details.

Global Monk Changes:
- Fix Handwraps to count as weapons. This should fix man stat-to-damage lockouts and move issues (though animations may need work)
- Allow Elemental Monk moves to scale with Melee Power.
- Add "Monk Levels" to game like other caster levels so that DCs can become scalable. This would allow for Martial ED cores (especially GMoF) to add levels, enhancements, and possibly even items, so all Monk moves can be balanced in multiple ways rather than the single stat that exists now.
- Increase the MRR cap of Unarmored to 100. I understand that the MRR cap was placed due to Evasion, but the limitation of 50 on Unarmored and 100 on Light is a penalty that affects ONLY Monks. Casters can get ASR reduction and wear armor, and every other Evasion class can Light armor. The cap should be the same for both. This also would help alleviate the issue of the artificially low MRR cap making all MRR past lives useless for Monks at end game.
- Make Monk bonuses unique (such as "Meditation", actual Unique, or something far less common like Psionic) rather than Insightful - too much of the Monk is lost at end game. I mention this a few times in individual Enhancement fixes, but Monks have suffered the issue of the expanding game benefiting them far less than other classes as the common base second tier bonus on items is "Insightful", which doesn't stack with Monk. This makes some core enhancements and abilities useless (such as Void Dragon, Meditation PRR/HP, Air Stance in it's entirety, Water Stance saves, etc...). There are also some game glitches due to Monk Insightful conflicting with other Insightfuls (such as Meditation + Sentinel HP).

Finishing Moves:
Dark Monk finishers are actually pretty solid, but face crippled DCs which take it from great to useless. Manipulating Monk Levels would help DC issues in their respect, and very likely is all Dark Monk needs. All other finishers, though....

DCs listed are under the assumption that Monk Levels or some other manipulator is added to make Monk DCs viable at end game.

Elemental Finishers:
- The Trembling Earth
-- Combination: Earth - Earth - Earth
-- 10 Ki.
-- The attack has +2 critical multiplier, and the victim is turned into stone (similar to Flesh to Stone) for 30 seconds.
-- Fortitude save negates (DC 10 + Monk Level + Wisdom Modifier)

- The Gathering Storm
-- Combination: Air - Air - Air
-- 10 Ki.
-- Cast Haste for 30 seconds.

- The Raging Sea
-- Combination: Water - Water - Water
-- 10 Ki.
-- The enemy is knocked down for three seconds
-- Fortitude save negates (DC 10 + Monk Level + Wisdom Modifier + trip modifiers)

- Breath of the Fire Dragon
-- Combination: Fire - Fire - Fire
-- 10 Ki.
-- A cone of searing flame shoots forth, damaging targets in the area of the flames for 1d6 damage per Monk level.
-- A successful Reflex save (DC 10 + Monk Level + Wisdom Modifier) reduces the damage by half. Scales with Combustion spell power.


Path of Harmonious Balance Finishers
- Healing Ki (no changes needed if Elemental Curatives is boosted)
-- Combination: Light - Light - Light
-- 10 Ki.
-- You heal all nearby allies for 1d4 plus 1d4 per two monk levels.

- Grasp the Earth Dragon
-- Combination: Earth - Light - Earth
-- 10 Ki.
-- Nearby allies become immune to daze, stun, sleep, and stat damage for 60 seconds plus 6 seconds per Monk Level.

- Dance of Clouds
-- Combination: Air - Light - Air
-- 10 Ki.
-- Nearby allies gain 30% concealment for 60 seconds plus 6 seconds per Monk Level. (boost to party over blurry/lesser items, but not as good as displacement)

- Aligning the Heavens
-- Combination: Water - Light - Water
-- 10 Ki.
-- Nearby allies gain a 25% reduction in spell point costs for 60 seconds plus 6 seconds per Monk Level.

- Walk of the Sun
-- Combination: Fire - Light - Fire
-- 10 Ki.
-- Nearby allies gain a +2 untyped bonus to attack, damage, saves, and skills for 60 seconds plus 6 seconds per Monk Level.

- Moment of Clarity
-- Combination: Void - Light - Void
-- 15 Ki
-- You grant yourself and your allies the ability to see Evil with perfect clarity and give protection from it. Grant multiple targets True Seeing and wards from attacks by evil creatures, granting a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus to saves against attacks from evil creatures. The targets are also warded from magical mental control and compulsions. Lasts 60 seconds plus 6 seconds per Monk Level.


Path of Inevitable Dominion Finishers
With these finishers being pretty solid and possible DC boosts, only two moves do I see wanting changes:

- Karmic Strike
-- Combination: Fire - Dark - Fire
-- 10 Ki.
-- This attack is guaranteed to produce critical threat with a +1 Crit Multiplier if it hits.
-- Using this finisher also costs the user 20 hit points, which cannot be reduced by effects such as Damage Resistance.

- Curse of the Void
-- Combination: Void - Dark - Void
-- Have this follow the new "Confused" status from Warlock (up to 2 minutes).
-- A Will Save (DC 10 + Monk level + Wisdom bonus) negates this effect.
-- Each time the target takes damage there is a chance that they will break free of this effect.


I will post each Enhancement tree in it's own reply. Here we go!

DrawingGuy
06-05-2015, 08:15 PM
Henshin Mystic Tree
This one needs the most work, though the proposed change to have "Monk Levels" able to be raised through EDs and enhancements will help this tree and Monk moves across the board.
- Align the staff power with that of Thief-Acrobat
- Bring Henshin casting powers to relevance
- Open up Void Strike so Monks have access to Void combos again outside of Tier 5 Henshin

Core Abilities:
- Riddle of Fire: +5 Fire and Force Spell Power, 1% Fire and Force Spell Critical chance, +2 Fire Resistance, and -2 Enemy Fire Resistance per Henshin Mystic Tree Core

- Ki Bolt (no change)
-- +1 Enhancement bonus to staff weapons

- Sounding Staff (no change)
-- +1 Enhancement bonus to staff weapons

- Incinerating Wave: You produce a wall of Ki flame that travels away from you, dealing 5d6 fire and force damage plus 1 point of fire and force damage per two monk levels every 2 seconds to all opponents near it. A successful Reflex save (DC 10 + Monk Level + Wisdom Modifier) reduces damage by half.
-- +1 Enhancement bonus to staff weapons
** I initially proposed this as turning it just into another Wall of Fire. That would just be homogenizing the game and would require some more serious design changes (or just yet again copying the Wall of Fire spell) - would much rather see damage boosted. I would change the "1 point of fire and force damage per two monk levels every 2 seconds" to either "2 points of Fire and Force damage per monk level every 2 seconds" or even "+1d6 Fire and Force damage per two Monk levels". It should be balanced around it only getting 1 or 2 ticks, looking for damage closer to spells of similar level like Shout, or getting 4 ticks worth of Wall of Fire in a single tick. It needs at least a 50% damage increase, with doubling more likely being the sweet spot.

- Cauldron of Flame: You expend a use of Meditation to will flame into the world around you. Enemies around you take 2d6 fire damage per monk level every 2 seconds, increasing by an additional 2d6 fire damage every 2 seconds that you remain standing in the center of the flames. If you leave the very center of the flames, this effect ends. A successful Reflex save (DC 10 + Monk Level + Wisdom Modifier) reduces damage by half.

- Serenity: Your understanding of things has evolved to a level that defies description.
-- +4 Wisdom
-- +10 Concentration
-- +1 Passive Ki Generation
-- +20 Fire and Force Spell Power (stacks with Riddle)
-- +5% Fire and Force Spell Critical Chance (stacks with Riddle)
-- +2 Monk Levels for all DCs that use Monk levels


Tier One:
- (new) Swift Striking: +5%/+10%/+15% attack speed with quarterstaves.

- Henshin Staff Training (no change)

- Mystic Training: +1/+2/+3 to your Monk Level

-- (removed) Negotiator: +1/+2/+3 Bluff, Diplomacy, and Haggle. Rank 3: The cooldown for your Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Ki Shout are reduced by 10%. -- Removed to make room for an Action Boost

- Contemplation - No change other than moving down a tier to make room for the Action Boost.

- Animal Forms:
-- Way of the Clever Monkey: Like a monkey, no trap in the world can catch you. You gain +1 to your haggle skill and all saves against traps, as well as 2% energy absorption. At monk levels 3, 9, and 15, the skill and save bonuses increase by 1 and energy absorption increases by 2%.

-- Way of the Elegant Crane: Like a crane, you strike with precision and elegance. You gain +1 to your Diplomacy skill, and generate 1 additional Ki on critical hits. Your training has left you more fragile than normal, however, and have a -1 penalty to Fortitude saves. At monk levels 3, 9, and 15, these bonuses increase by 1. Penalty no longer scales.

-- Way of the Faithful Hound: Like a hound, you are ever vigilant and at home amidst the pack. You gain +1 to your Listen skill and a +2 bonus to hit and +2 to damage to attacks that qualify for Sneak Attack. At monk levels 3, 9, and 15, the bonuses increase by 1.

-- Way of the Patient Tortoise: Like a tortoise, you are calm at heart and worries wash over you. You gain +1 to your Concentration skill and 5 additional hit points. At monk levels 3, 9, and 15, the skill bonus increases by 1 and hit point bonus increases by 5. (no change)

-- Way of the Tenacious Badger: Like a badger, you are most dangerous when grievously injured. You gain +1 to your Intimidate skill, and whenever you are below 50% health, your passive Ki regeneration is increased by 1 and you deal +0.25[W] additional damage. Your patience has suffered, however, and you generate Ki slower when meditating. At monk levels 3, 9, and 15, the skill bonus increases by 1, the damage bonus increases by +0.25[W], and the health range increases by 10%.


Tier Two:
- (new) Void Strike I: Void Ki Melee Attack: You have learned to make attacks backed by pure Ki energy. On Hit: 2d6 Force damage. On Vorpal: 5d6 Force damage. Scales with Force Spell Power. (Activation Cost: 5 Ki. Cooldown: 3 seconds)

- Henshin Staff Training (no change)

- Quick Strike: Melee Quarterstaff Attack: Deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage. You gain a 5%/15%/25% Morale bonus to melee doublestrike for 10 seconds. (Cooldown: 18/15/12 seconds)

- Elemental Ki Strike (see Shintao tree for suggestions on this)

- (new) Selector: (Might & Magic)
-- Might: Melee Power Boost: Activate this ability to receive a +[10/20/30] Action Boost bonus to Melee Power for 20 seconds.
-- Magic: Spell Power Boost: Activate to gain a +10/+20/+30 Action Boost bonus to Spell Power for 20 seconds.


Tier Three:
- (new) Void Strike II: Void Ki Melee Attack: You have learned to make attacks backed by pure Ki energy. On Hit: 4d6 Force damage. On Vorpal: Enemy is dazed for 12 seconds. Scales with Force Spell Power. (Activation Cost: 7 Ki. Cooldown: 3 seconds)

- Henshin Staff Training (no change)

- Lighting the Candle: Weapon Stance: While you are centered, you enhance your attacks with Ki flame. Two handed weapons gain On Hit: 1d4/1d6/1d8 Fire damage and On Critical: 1d10/2d10/3d10 Force damage. One handed weapons and handwraps gain On Hit: 1d2/1d3/1d4 Fire damage and On Critical: 1d6/2d6/3d6 Force damage. Scales with Fire and Force Spell Power. Your Ki generation on hit is reduced by 1.

- Embrace the Void: Gain 1/2/3 Meditation use per rest, and regenerate Ki faster while meditating. While you are meditating, you gain 10/20/30 PRR and MRR and generate a protective shield which can absorb up to 25/50/100 damage, and is refreshed every 3 seconds.

- Ability score option


Tier Four:
- (new) Void Strike III: Void Ki Melee Attack: You have learned to make attacks backed by pure Ki energy. On Hit: 6d6 Force damage. On Vorpal: Enemy is paralyzed for 60 seconds. Scales with Force Spell Power. (Activation Cost: 10 Ki. Cooldown: 3 seconds)

- Henshin Staff Training (no change)

- Elemental Words: Now a single Tier 4 trait that comes with all four options

- Focus (no change)

- Ability score option


Tier Five:
- Void Strike IV (no change other than force scaling)

- (new) Henshin Staff Training: +3 to hit and +3 damage with quarterstaves.

- Staff Specialization (no change)

- (new) One of two options. Toggle.
-- Being of Force: +10 Force spell power. +10 Force resistance. Immunity to Magic/Force/Chain missiles.
-- Being of Fire: +10 Fire spell power. +10 Fire Resistance. +10 PRR.

- Balance in Dawn: Select a melee attack that opposes your philosophy:
-- Every Light Casts a Shadow: Dark Ki Melee Attack: Perform an attack with +2[W] damage. On Damage: Target suffers 1d4 Negative Levels. If the target dies within 10 seconds, all nearby enemies suffer 1d2 Negative Levels. (Cost: 15 Ki. Cooldown: 6 seconds)
-- Requires Path of Harmonious Balance

-- Shadows Cannot Exist Without Light: Light Ki Melee Attack: Perform an attack with +2[W] damage. On Damage: Target suffers 1d6 Light damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. This can stack up to 10 times. If the target dies within 10 seconds, all allies around the target receive 100 Positive Energy healing. Light damage scales 100% with Melee Power. Healing is affected by Positive Spell Power. (Cost: 15 Ki. Cooldown: 6 seconds)
-- Requires Path of Inevitable Dominion

DrawingGuy
06-05-2015, 08:15 PM
Ninja Spy Tree
This line is good on the low end, but higher tiers are weak. Also think cores need some shuffling and work.
- Allow Ninja Poison to scale with Melee Power will fix most of the tree abilities
- Providing some core melee power will allow monks to close some of the existing power gap


Core Abilities:
- Basic Ninja Training (no change other than allowing unarmed with Vorpal Strikes/Brawling Glvoes/Ivy Wraps)

- Advanced Ninja Training (no change other than allowing unarmed with Vorpal Strikes/Brawling Glvoes/Ivy Wraps)

- (new) Dance of the Water Strider
-- You focus your ki and can run across liquids as if they were solid - so long as you maintain your concentration and perform no other actions, and do not stop running forward. Hazardous liquids (such as lava) will inflict their effects on you as if you were wading in them. (Cost 20 Ki)
-- 5 Melee Power

- Shadow Veil (moved up a rank to make 6 Monk splash less powerful)

- Diversion (no change)
-- 5 Melee Power

- Ninja Master
-- +4 Dexterity
-- you gain a +1 Competence bonus to the Critical Threat Range with Short Swords, Longswords, and Longbows. You gain a +2 Competence bonus to the Critical Threat Range with Kamas and Shuriken.
-- Any piercing or slashing weapon you wield gains the Vorpal ability.
-- 10 Melee Power


Tier One:
- Ninjutsu
-- Impending Doom: If the enemy affected by your Touch of Despair dies within the next 30 seconds, you gain 25 Ki and 25 temporary hit points. Enemies immune to your Touch of Despair cannot be Doomed. Temporary Hit Points scale 200% with melee power.
-- Poison Exploit: On a failed saving throw, your Touch of Despair finisher purges an enemy of Ninja Poison, dealing 1d20 poison damage per stack of Ninja Poison removed. Scales 100% with melee power.
-- Poisoned Soul (no changed as Ninja Poison scaling would boost this)
-- Wave of Despair (no change)

- Stealthy (no change)

- SA Training (no change)

- Faster Sneaking (no change)

- Acrobatic (no change)


Tier Two:
- Ninjutsu (see Tier One)

- Subtlety: -20%/-30%/-40% threat generation with melee and ranged attacks.

- SA Training (no change)

- Elemental Ki Strike (see Shintao tree for suggestions on this)

- Agility (no change)


Tier Three:
- Ninjutsu (see Tier One)

- Flash Bang (no change)

- SA Training (no change)

- Sting of the Ninja: Weapon Stance: You poison your weapon with a secret mixture. While you are centered, your piercing and slashing weapons (and shuriken) inflict your foes with a stack of Ninja Poison on critical hits. (Cooldown: 3 seconds). Melee qualifier removed so all piercing/slashing weapons apply.

- Dex / Wis


Tier Four:
- Ninjutsu (see Tier One)

- Deadly Exploits: Your Poison Exploit now deals 1d30/1d40/1d50 poison damage per stack of Ninja Poison removed. Scales 100% with melee power.

- SA Training (no change)

- No Mercy (Lower to 1 AP)

- Dex / Wis


Tier Five:
- Touch of Death: Dark Ki Melee Attack: You strike a living opponent down with twisted Ki, dealing 500 additional negative energy damage. (Activation Cost: 50 Ki. Cooldown: 15 seconds)
-- Either: Your opponent takes half damage on a successful Fortitude save (DC = 10 + Wisdom modifier + your monk level). Scales with Negative Spellpower.
-- Or: Scales 100% with melee power, no save

- (new) Measure the Foe: Gain +6 Melee Power, +2 Dodge, +2 Maximum Dodge, and +1 to hit for every 4/2/1 seconds you remain stealthed. This effect stacks up to five times, and lasts 10 seconds after you come out of stealth.

- Crippling Strike (no change)

- Shadow Double: You gain 2[W] and 100% melee doublestrike for 6 seconds (Activation Cost: 30 Ki. Cooldown: 30 seconds)

DrawingGuy
06-05-2015, 08:16 PM
Shintao Tree
The main changes to this line address the following issues:
- Elemental Curatives: I've always considered this an extremely weak line as basic level 1 potions from House K do the same job with no KI finisher setup and cost. Sure you can help those silly enough not to carry pots, but I'd rather give them a few thousand plat and save my AP.
- Survival, though approached as better avoidance rather than mitigation
- Take focus off Earth stance with improving other stances
- Allieviate some of the MAD (multi attribute disorder) issues Monk has with allowing WIS as a stat for attacks.

Core:
- Bastion of Purity: 10 Pos Spell power, 10 Heal Amp, +1 max dodge cap per Shintao core

- Protection from Tainted Creatures (no change)
-- 2% dodge while centered

- Iron Hand (no change)
-- 5% doublestrike

- Argen Fist (no change)
-- 2% dodge while centered

- Touch of the Void Dragon: Ki Activate: Expend a use of Meditation to gain a 1d4+1 (unique) bonus to all ability scores for one minute. (Cooldown: 1 minute)
-- 5% doublestrike

- To Seek Perfection: You continually seek physical and spiritual betterment, reaping many benefits.
-- +4 Wisdom
-- Bonuses against tainted creatures improve to +3 (weak but classic)
(removed) -- You no longer suffer penalties from Meditation of War.
-- +2[W] while Unarmed
-- 10% doublestrike
-- 3% dodge while centered


Tier One:
- Elemental Curatives: Restoring Balance: Your Healing Ki finishing move also removes curses (no longer a selector)

(removed) Reed in the Wind - The low power and low uptime of this move I've always found weak. Never have taken it on any build.

- (new) Know thy Self: Apply Wisdom to attacks with Monk weapons and unarmed while centered

- Deft Strikes (Lower to 1 AP)

- Ki Shout: Ki Activate: Intimidates nearby enemies, encouraging them to attack you. This ability uses your Concentration skill, and shares a cooldown with the Intimidate skill. (Activation Cost: 15 Ki. Cooldown: 6 seconds) - This should match Intimidate on cooldown and threat level generation.

(removed) -- Exemplar: 1/2/3 Heal and Intimidate. Rank 3: You also gain +10% threat generation. -- This is a rather weak ability, and removed to make room for an Action Boost, which Monks were completely lacking.

- Conditioning No change other than making Tier 1, as action boosts are a bit stronger and usually land in Tier 2.


Tier Two:
- Elemental Curatives: Difficulty at the Beginning: Your Healing Ki finishing move also applies a Restoration effect

- Smite Tainted Creature (Lower to 1 AP)

- Focused Attunement:
-- Earth Stance: 5/10/15 PRR
-- Air Stance: 1/2/3% (stacking) doublestrike
-- Water Stance: 1/2/3% dodge
-- Fire Stance: 1/2/3 damage

- Elemental Ki Strikes (no change other than improving Eagle Claw to Improved Destruction stacks with same Imp cap)

- (new) Selector:
-- Fists of Fury: Haste Boost: Activate to gain +10%/+20%/+30% Action Boost bonus to attack speed for 20 seconds.
-- Fists of Stone: Defense Boost: Activate to gain a +[5/10/15] Action Boost bonus to Armor Class, Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating for 20 seconds.


Tier Three:
- Elemental Curatives: The Receptive Earth: Your Healing Ki finishing move has the same effect as a Heal removing blindness, disease, poison, etc

- Jade Strike (Lower to 1 AP)

- Dismissing Strike (no change)

- Con / Wis


Tier Four:
- Elemental Curatives: In Harmony with Life: Your Healing Ki Finishing move increases from 1d4 + 1d4 every two Monk levels to 1d10 + 1d10 every two Monk levels.

- Tomb of Jade: Ki Melee Attack: You perform an attack that encases a tainted target in a tomb of jade on a failed Will save (DC = 10 + Wisdom modifier + your monk level). Extraplanar Aberrations or Undead must succeed at two consecutive Will saves to avoid this fate. (Activation Cost: 25 Ki. Cooldown: 15 seconds) - Lower to 1 AP

- Instinctive Attunement:
-- Earth Stance: 5/10/15% less damage when struck while helpless
-- Air Stance: 3/6/10% faster attack speed (stacking)
-- Water Stance: 5/10/15 MRR
-- Fire Stance: 5/10/15 melee power

- (new) Know thy Enemy: Apply Wisdom to damage with Monk weapons and Unarmed while centered

- Con / Wis


Tier Five:
- Rise of the Phoenix (no change)

- Kukan-Do (no change other than making this a bit faster)

- Violence Begets Violence: When an opponent misses you in melee, you gain +1 critical threat range for 6 seconds. This stacks up to 5 times and is reset if you critically hit. (Remove Earth Stance qualifier)

- Meditation of War I find Meditation of War to underperform. First is to remove the penalties. Second is to make the bonuses unique rather than the Insight bonuses that are already covered by gear. Beyond that, here are my suggestions to fix it:
-- Air Stance: +2 bonus to hit, +10% bonus to off-hand attack chance, and 2% chance to lightning strike.
-- Fire Stance: +2 bonus to damage, +2 Monk Levels for Monk moves, and +10 Melee Power
-- Earth Stance: +10 bonus to Physical Resistance, +3% bonus to Maximum Hit Points, and remove movement penalty from Earth Stance
-- Water Stance: +5 bonus to Maximum Dodge and +5 to saves.

- Empty Hand Mastery (no change)

LuKaSu
06-05-2015, 09:34 PM
I really like your changes!

Alternative
06-06-2015, 12:16 AM
Don't you think abilities such as tomb of jade should have shorter cooldowns? especially with bards being able to freeze literally anything every 6 seconds, having a limited version with 60 seconds cooldown seems greatly inadequate for the current game state. I like the wis to hit and dmg idea, but probably won't happen because of belief that monkchers are still OP.

A class needs to have something it excels at to be interesting to play, and currently monks have nothing, worse dps (more so if wis based for stunning fist), no armor, no aoe, not even fun tactics to play with. Sure the game is easy and one can solo most quests even on a monk, but there's just nothing compelling reason to play this class.

And then there's the quivering palm, the melee instakill that was too strong for monks, but was then given to bards, and the game didn't implode.

DrawingGuy
06-06-2015, 01:56 AM
I completely agree, but something I admittedly sidestepped other than saying they should be cheaper. How do you compare to an over-powered stun that works on nearly everything, has better DCs, and lasts longer than Stunning Fist? Frozen Fury is so brokenly overpowered I believe it should be nerfed, not emulated. However 1 min is a bit extensive - a 15s cooldown would be good, and I'll update to reflect that.

Kielbasa
06-06-2015, 11:50 AM
Global Monk Changes:
- Fix Handwraps to count as weapons. This should fix man stat-to-damage lockouts and move issues (though animations may need work)
- Allow elements of monk moves to scale with their respective spell power
- Add "Monk Levels" to game like other caster levels so that DCs can become scalable. This would allow for Martial ED cores (especially GMoF) to add levels, enhancements, and possibly even items, so all Monk moves can be balanced in multiple ways rather than the single stat that exists now.


Agreed recoding wraps to count as weapons is a must in today's game. This should fix many of the issues where many things just do not work with wraps should solve part of the scaling issues they have in epics.

Monk moves should not scale with their respective spell power they should scale with melee power otherwise gearing a monk would get pretty ridiculous. Also the fire, lightning, and water attacks should scale at a better rate than the earth attacks. The only things that should scale with spell power are the moves in henshin mystic where it should be the greater of fire or force applying to their signature moves.

Your ideas for finishing moves are solid so long as a monk can gain a relevant dc on them for epics good players will weave them into their gameplay.


Henshin Mystic Tree
This one needs the most work, though the proposed change to have "Monk Levels" able to be raised through EDs and enhancements will help this tree and Monk moves across the board.
- Align the staff power with that of Thief-Acrobat
- Bring Henshin casting powers to relevance
- Open up Void Strike so Monks have access to Void combos again outside of Tier 5 Henshin

- Lighting the Candle: Weapon Stance: While you are centered, you enhance your attacks with Ki flame. Two handed weapons gain On Hit: 1d4/1d6/1d8 Fire damage and On Critical: 1d10/2d10/3d10 Force damage. One handed weapons and handwraps gain On Hit: 1d2/1d3/1d4 Fire damage and On Critical: 1d6/2d6/3d6 Force damage. Scales with Fire and Force Spell Power. Your Ki generation on hit is reduced by 1.

- Embrace the Void: Gain 1/2/3 Meditation use per rest, and regenerate Ki faster while meditating. While you are meditating, you gain 10/20/30 PRR and MRR and generate a protective shield which can absorb up to 25/50/100 damage, and is refreshed every 3 seconds.

- Elemental Words: Now a single Tier 4 trait that comes with all four options

- Focus (no change)

- (new) One of two options. Toggle.
-- Being of Force: +10 Force spell power. +10 Force resistance. Immunity to Magic/Force/Chain missiles.
-- Being of Fire: +10 Fire spell power. +10 Fire Resistance. +10 PRR.

- Balance in Dawn (no change)

I agree with you this tree needs the most work. Your suggestions are good but may not go far enough.

Void strikes again for every monk would be nice. Should probably scale with melee power to make them more accessible.

Lighting the candle is basically a better version of venomed blades and anyone that takes henshin to tier 3 has already gimped themselves enough it doesn't need another penalty so remove the reduction to ki on hit.

I have always found embrace the void and focus to be a waste of enhancement points so anything to make those better would be great. Let the prr and mrr linger on your character as a buff for 30 seconds or a minute after the focus field dissipates might get some people to think about sinking points here.

Consolidating elemental words or removing them entirely if something better can be created is a good idea.

For balance of dawn I would make sure both moves scale better into epics. Every light casts a shadow needs the cooldown reduced to 6 seconds to better allow people to use dark finishers with it as well as the bug(feature) that negative levels your party to be fixed. Shadows cannot exist without light needs the DoT to scale with melee power and the heal to scale with either melee power or positive energy.


Ninja Spy Tree
This line is good on the low end, but higher tiers are weak. Also think cores need some shuffling and work.
- Allow Ninja Poison to scale with Melee Power will fix most of the tree abilities
- Providing some core melee power will allow monks to close some of the existing power gap


A few things I would tweak with the cores is add 1 sneak dice per core and 2-4 at the capstone. I like your addition of melee power in there it is needed for scaling into epics. Allowing poison to work with wraps is a much needed improvement. I have always felt they went too far trying to force people into using kamas or short swords. Opening up a variety of options is good leaving a good chunk of the tree useless for handwrap users was a bad decision. Moving shadow veil to level 12 would have made sense before the armor pass but now it is probably not needed. I would add somewhere into the cores a way for a monk to use the higher of dex or wisdom for their finishing moves. The vorpal in the capstone also needs to go should be replaced by something for piercing and slashing weapons that scales better into epics or just allow them to use stunning fist with kamas/short swords.

Been a while since I played a dark monk mostly only play as a light monk but touch of death needs some love. Should scale with melee power, make the save the greater of dex/wis and revert to how it used to be where you could multi-hit with it.


Shintao Tree
The main changes to this line address the following issues:
- Elemental Curatives: I've always considered this an extremely weak line as basic level 1 potions from House K do the same job with no KI finisher setup and cost. Sure you can help those silly enough not to carry pots, but I'd rather give them a few thousand plat and save my AP.
- Survival, though approached as better avoidance rather than mitigation
- Take focus off Earth stance with improving other stances
- Allieviate some of the MAD (multi attribute disorder) issues Monk has with allowing WIS as a stat for attacks.


You did a great job with this one only a few minor suggestions. Don't limit the double strike in the cores and capstone to unarmed. Swap the tier 2 and tier 3 curatives as your t3 would be more useful at the lower levels while leveling and the restoration effect is more valuable and should be a higher tier. Tier 4 add an additional passive ki generation to water stance as it needs all the love it can get. Violence Begets Violence perfect change here as well as taking the emphasis off earth stance throughout.

DrawingGuy
06-06-2015, 02:11 PM
Agreed recoding wraps to count as weapons is a must in today's game. This should fix many of the issues where many things just do not work with wraps should solve part of the scaling issues they have in epics.

Monk moves should not scale with their respective spell power they should scale with melee power otherwise gearing a monk would get pretty ridiculous. Also the fire, lightning, and water attacks should scale at a better rate than the earth attacks. The only things that should scale with spell power are the moves in henshin mystic where it should be the greater of fire or force applying to their signature moves.

Your ideas for finishing moves are solid so long as a monk can gain a relevant dc on them for epics good players will weave them into their gameplay.

I debated over that. Melee Power scaling would be a flat increase that all Monks would appreciate. Spell Power would instead garner "specialization" making certain moves even stronger. Though losing out on everything so a single move can do 40-80 more damage is still too little gain for too high a cost now that I think about it. I agree this should be Melee Power. The Breath of Fire, though, I do think should stay as Combustion spell power. It would be a solid boost to Henshin builds as well as give stronger scaling options for those that do want to build for it.

You're right, though, regarding Finishing Moves - without a reliable way to get them into the 70s, they're not going to be touched. That's where I'm hoping scaling Monk levels will help this. With +6 from a Martial ED and +3-5 from Henshin, you can reach 70 DC with 70 WIS rather than the current unreachable value of 90. This would also open up for "augmentation" type items so Monk move DCs can be played with in different ways than what they did with the QP nerf.




I agree with you this tree needs the most work. Your suggestions are good but may not go far enough.

Void strikes again for every monk would be nice. Should probably scale with melee power to make them more accessible.

Lighting the candle is basically a better version of venomed blades and anyone that takes henshin to tier 3 has already gimped themselves enough it doesn't need another penalty so remove the reduction to ki on hit.

I have always found embrace the void and focus to be a waste of enhancement points so anything to make those better would be great. Let the prr and mrr linger on your character as a buff for 30 seconds or a minute after the focus field dissipates might get some people to think about sinking points here.

Consolidating elemental words or removing them entirely if something better can be created is a good idea.

For balance of dawn I would make sure both moves scale better into epics. Every light casts a shadow needs the cooldown reduced to 6 seconds to better allow people to use dark finishers with it as well as the bug(feature) that negative levels your party to be fixed. Shadows cannot exist without light needs the DoT to scale with melee power and the heal to scale with either melee power or positive energy.

Void Strike scaling with Melee or Force power would be up for debate. Force power scaling would work with what Henshin is already getting and open it up for crits. Melee Power would help the general builds. Would like to hear more opinions in this respect.

Lighting the Candle I actually would like to see balanced around considering the penalty rather than have the penalty removed. I like the extra flavor and trade-off consideration. Though as I have it proposed, the ki penalty is probably too much.

Embrace the Void having the PRR/MRR linger and the Focus lasting a minute instead of 30 seconds would be a nice thing actually. You are expending a meditation, and are not moving while you meditate, so it is still strongly limited. That then, though, brings the concern that the PRR/MRR should probably scale over time rather than be at the start of the Meditation so it doesn't become just a click > interrupt.

I want Elemental Words to exist - it's something you can do to help boost party DPS, but the current cost and structure was not even remotely worth it. 2 AP to gain access to them I consider worth the AP cost to take. Maybe up to 4 AP where you can spend 1 AP per move would work as well if they could do that in a single tiered selector as I consider that still a balanced cost. Whatever the case, it taking up 4 slots of the tree at 2AP a pop was a joke and moving it to a single slot with lower costs is the best way to handle it imo.

Balance of Dawn I actually meant to suggest similar suggestions as what you have, but I labeled it no change and forgot to go back to it (this took a lot of thought and a long time for me to put together). Will be updating the post to reflect these - thanks!




A few things I would tweak with the cores is add 1 sneak dice per core and 2-4 at the capstone. I like your addition of melee power in there it is needed for scaling into epics. Allowing poison to work with wraps is a much needed improvement. I have always felt they went too far trying to force people into using kamas or short swords. Opening up a variety of options is good leaving a good chunk of the tree useless for handwrap users was a bad decision. Moving shadow veil to level 12 would have made sense before the armor pass but now it is probably not needed. I would add somewhere into the cores a way for a monk to use the higher of dex or wisdom for their finishing moves. The vorpal in the capstone also needs to go should be replaced by something for piercing and slashing weapons that scales better into epics or just allow them to use stunning fist with kamas/short swords.

Been a while since I played a dark monk mostly only play as a light monk but touch of death needs some love. Should scale with melee power, make the save the greater of dex/wis and revert to how it used to be where you could multi-hit with it.

1 SA die per core would be too much - I don't think Ninja Spy should be giving out more SA die than the Rogue Assassin tree. SA die would also be a straight buff to Shuricannon builds. I do agree that it would be fitting, and if testing shows they have room for it, I'd suggest +1 SA on tier 4 core, and +2 SA on capstone.

I still hold to the moving the tier up on Shadow Veil. While it's true the Monk splash for survivability reasons is dead as MRR > evasion, we still have Monkchers and Shuricannons (though now that the Ninja Spy capstone is fixed, pure Monk shuri build is pretty solid) as well as some exploitative Animal/Tree builds. Until those are balanced, this higher cost will take it out of reach for most of them.

Allowing for Dex or Wis for any move in the Ninja Spy tree would be a solid option. Allowing it to apply for any move is a much more difficult proposition... DEX is easier to raise and can get higher than WIS (races, better items, more enhancement boosting options, more buff options, etc), and has more benefit for raising (you need Dex for TWF, Reflex is what Evasion relies on, and also raises your AC). It essentially would make Ninja Spy a must for a DC Monk. So I would say, no, to that suggestion for anything outside of the Ninja Spy tree.

As for the Vorpal being too weak, it's still 5% (or 10% with PSWF) chance of 100 damage for free, with an instakill on low level mobs. I think it should stay, with the +2 SA die added to the capstone if it is seen as still too weak. One buff I do think should happen is opening up the +1 crit threat range to cover Long swords and Longbows.




You did a great job with this one only a few minor suggestions. Don't limit the double strike in the cores and capstone to unarmed. Swap the tier 2 and tier 3 curatives as your t3 would be more useful at the lower levels while leveling and the restoration effect is more valuable and should be a higher tier. Tier 4 add an additional passive ki generation to water stance as it needs all the love it can get. Violence Begets Violence perfect change here as well as taking the emphasis off earth stance throughout.

I'm not sure they can even limit the doublestrike to unarmed only. The thinking here, though, is that unarmed specifically needs a little love, and I saw additional doublestrike as a good way to do that. If they actually fix Unarmed to count as weapons and qualify for other stat damage types and work with ED moves and crit bonuses, then such a specific bonus may not be needed. If they don't do that, I do think Unarmed should get specific bonuses within this tree.

The curative swap would be fine, though I disagree with Tier 4 granting more passive Ki generation to Water stance. I believe we should shy away from adding new passive Ki generation options due to the current power levels of Shuricannons and Monkchers, and the proposed "Attunement" line would be the perfect place to boost Water Stance further if needed. My thought process was: Leave Earth as is, boost Air/Fire DPS above that of Earth to make them desirable for DPS, and boost Water defensively while adding the concept that Earth is physical mitigation and Water is magic mitigation.

AlexIII
06-07-2015, 12:21 PM
In general, great plans

Id like to see shintao, the unarmed focus, get a DC boost for stunning blow and critical; makes getting a stun +10 less needful.

Also would like to see a way to give shuricannons some way to use basic elemental strikes and void strikes with shurikien and corresponding ki gen on hits; I don't see why I can make the end of a quarterstaff or kamma freezing, but not a throwing star.
Both could be less effective than melee (longer cooldowns, only 50% to gain ki or something)
I don't think this would be op as its not a huge boost[1d6,2d6,2d10,2d20] and mostly I use these for finishers and stopping regen on trolls, and even with the new and improved, finishers.

Id also like to see moment of clarity less situational lots of mobs don't have concealment, perhaps
- 20 second duration
-- bypass concealment
-- +4 attack and damage, stacking
-- +10 MRR and PRR (clarity can apply to defense too!), stacking

TheGuyYouKnow
06-07-2015, 01:59 PM
...
although an all round buff to the monk class/trees i feel if ddo is going that way paladin bard and barb have been updated too these changes are not enough to bring them back to being a class someone would take into EE. this is both a problem with their defensive and offensive options as they have received very few boosts to survivability since epic difficulties came out and dps builds have moved to a "crit hard and often" ideal that monks can not compete with.

first off a pr/mr boost while centered equal to monk level i feel is a must because currently we have to rely on avoidance and will inevitably get hit be some EE champ and die, getting hit should be punishing for a guy waring a skirt but not instant death (+20 MR/PR at cap).

give handwraps +1 crit range at level 10 monk and +1 multiplier at level 20 monk (19-20/x3 at cap)

i like your meditation pr idea but i think it should be based on how long you have been meditating and have it last for some time after you get up(+1 PR every second while meditating up to a cap of 10, lasts for 2min).

regarding light elemental buff finishers they should definitely last longer than 60s. add enhancemnt at the same level as dark move dc bonus +40,80,120s duration to light buffs (3min total)

void strikes tiers should have added effect on vorpal as they did before, t1damage t2knockdown t3stun t4erased (no save).

nibel
06-07-2015, 03:17 PM
Shintao Tree

- Meditation of War (change to unique bonuses so they stack with items and EDs)

I would also remove the penalties on Meditation of War. They kill the bonus on the enhancement unless you also go for the Shintao capstone.

DrawingGuy
06-07-2015, 06:57 PM
In general, great plans

Id like to see shintao, the unarmed focus, get a DC boost for stunning blow and critical; makes getting a stun +10 less needful.

Also would like to see a way to give shuricannons some way to use basic elemental strikes and void strikes with shurikien and corresponding ki gen on hits; I don't see why I can make the end of a quarterstaff or kamma freezing, but not a throwing star.
Both could be less effective than melee (longer cooldowns, only 50% to gain ki or something)
I don't think this would be op as its not a huge boost[1d6,2d6,2d10,2d20] and mostly I use these for finishers and stopping regen on trolls, and even with the new and improved, finishers.

Id also like to see moment of clarity less situational lots of mobs don't have concealment, perhaps
- 20 second duration
-- bypass concealment
-- +4 attack and damage, stacking
-- +10 MRR and PRR (clarity can apply to defense too!), stacking

I never had an issue getting Stunning Fist to land through heroics, and post 20, I simply always had stun +10 items slotted. The game is simply built with items in mind, and if you decide to forgo them, your SF effectiveness should rightfully suffer. Of all the DC issues Monk faces, Stunning Fist is the one that needs the least amount of help.

As for Ki moves for Shuricannon, being able to balance them at range would be a bit of a nightmare. The balance of needing to be in melee for utility and the safety and sheer dps of shurikens (due to volume) I consider fine. Shuricannon builds would also see the most benefit from Ninja Poison gaining with Melee Power.

For the additional buffs to Moment of Clarity - not everything has to be useful 100% of the time. Tools that are situational is a good thing, and I run across enough people that don't carry True Seeing that this could be a useful thing to have. If there were additional changes, I'd like it to add dodge and/or fort bypass.




although an all round buff to the monk class/trees i feel if ddo is going that way paladin bard and barb have been updated too these changes are not enough to bring them back to being a class someone would take into EE. this is both a problem with their defensive and offensive options as they have received very few boosts to survivability since epic difficulties came out and dps builds have moved to a "crit hard and often" ideal that monks can not compete with.

first off a pr/mr boost while centered equal to monk level i feel is a must because currently we have to rely on avoidance and will inevitably get hit be some EE champ and die, getting hit should be punishing for a guy waring a skirt but not instant death (+20 MR/PR at cap).

give handwraps +1 crit range at level 10 monk and +1 multiplier at level 20 monk (19-20/x3 at cap)

i like your meditation pr idea but i think it should be based on how long you have been meditating and have it last for some time after you get up(+1 PR every second while meditating up to a cap of 10, lasts for 2min).

regarding light elemental buff finishers they should definitely last longer than 60s. add enhancemnt at the same level as dark move dc bonus +40,80,120s duration to light buffs (3min total)

void strikes tiers should have added effect on vorpal as they did before, t1damage t2knockdown t3stun t4erased (no save).

I also share the desire to not be one-shotted... though I don't think it's something that should be necessarily handed out. I agree with the sentiment the Devs gave about Monks being one of the best at avoiding damage, they just need to actually do that. Right now Bard can get all of the dodge Monk can get with no penalty and more PRR and MRR to boot. Swashbuckler should be nimble, but Monks should be on another level. As long as you can build out of the 1-2 shot with top-end gear and stances, I'm ok with getting harder as long as it's less often. On the same token, a first-life toon in sub-end-game gear shouldn't be able to in pajamas.

We are getting more and more classes that crit constantly and/or for absurd amounts. I'd rather see unarmed go for the best base damage and fastest attacks rather than more of the same of everyone just critting and stacking on-crit-proc gear. That would mean more x[W] gear and more doublestrike. Increasing the progression of x[W] gained through levels could be an option to boost unarmed strikes without it being a carbon copy of other weapon types. That thought, though, gives a good idea for some changes to Shintao capstone.

As for Light Elemental finisher durations, it's true - 1min is a chore to maintain, though it can be and 60s is the current structure. If the devs can code a "60 seconds + 6 seconds per Monk level" or something similar, that would be a great thing. Though I do think they should fit along the lines of a combat buffer, not a passive buffer like casters, so should be handled closer to haste durations. They should not last longer than a few minutes, but as long as they put work into making the buffs worthwhile, I'd accept even the 1min duration happily.

I completely forgot about the Void Strike vorpal affects! Been too long... Tier 2 was a daze, Tier 3 was a paralyze, Tier 4 was erased. I remember hitting T3 and T4 on cooldown. I don't remember what Tier I was, and I can't find any historical Wiki that still has the information. Definitely updating accordingly. Thanks!




I would also remove the penalties on Meditation of War. They kill the bonus on the enhancement unless you also go for the Shintao capstone.

Agreed. I believe it was initially added to try and limit the power of splash, but really, when you can get 3 Fighter or 3 Pally that gives 25 PRR and 25 MRR and +3 saves, what's 5 Monk to get these small bumps? This stance is also mutually exclusive with those said stances and has centered requirement (the Stalwart/Sacred now have zero requirement).

AlexIII
06-07-2015, 08:18 PM
I never had an issue getting Stunning Fist to land through heroics, and post 20, I simply always had stun +10 items slotted. The game is simply built with items in mind, and if you decide to forgo them, your SF effectiveness should rightfully suffer. Of all the DC issues Monk faces, Stunning Fist is the one that needs the least amount of help.


only thing is there are a lot of named hand-wraps without stunning; and the damage boost against a stun with a little ninja spy is sweet. Since most of mystic is quarterstaff, I tend to invest somewhat heavilly in ninja with extra AP(28 gets +4d6 and +30% to helpless, on top of +50%) Even on its on +50% and the sneak attack from items is nice with monk speed hits. Only two non-weapons have the stunning propertey, and only the seal of house dun'robar is usable by monks. with all the high end wraps without stunning, thunder and lightning, ivy, etc, id like to be able to use them, with less sure stuns sure, but not loseing everything. shintao might not be the best place for it, and maybe the monk levels will do it; need to do more math that I want to today to check.



As for Ki moves for Shuricannon, being able to balance them at range would be a bit of a nightmare. The balance of needing to be in melee for utility and the safety and sheer dps of shurikens (due to volume) I consider fine. Shuricannon builds would also see the most benefit from Ninja Poison gaining with Melee Power.


they don't need help in epics; in heroics, untill they get dex and wis up to ensure high rates of fire, there weak. They are further hinderd by lack of weapon choices. Until enhancement respec, shurikien were too weak to be effective. thus, few named shuriken, low drop rates. cannith crafting lets you make low end ones, but first you need to get one, and invest in decent crafting scores. Point being you don't always have a good weapon. My cannith suggestion would partially solve that, but still leaves the cannith investment. Even a [1d4,2d4,3d4,4d4] would be enough to grant a bit of elemental where it would do some good(trolls, fire ellementals, etc), and be a pittance at epics. Also, until you get the epic level set of + ki re-gen, ki is pretty tight without getting any on hits.



For the additional buffs to Moment of Clarity - not everything has to be useful 100% of the time. Tools that are situational is a good thing, and I run across enough people that don't carry True Seeing that this could be a useful thing to have. If there were additional changes, I'd like it to add dodge and/or fort bypass.


True, and a dodge or fort bypass would also be cool. But compared to the dark-void cc which is always handy, highly situational True seeing seemed weak. mine was probably a bit strong.

DrawingGuy
06-07-2015, 09:57 PM
only thing is there are a lot of named hand-wraps without stunning; and the damage boost against a stun with a little ninja spy is sweet. Since most of mystic is quarterstaff, I tend to invest somewhat heavilly in ninja with extra AP(28 gets +4d6 and +30% to helpless, on top of +50%) Even on its on +50% and the sneak attack from items is nice with monk speed hits. Only two non-weapons have the stunning propertey, and only the seal of house dun'robar is usable by monks. with all the high end wraps without stunning, thunder and lightning, ivy, etc, id like to be able to use them, with less sure stuns sure, but not loseing everything. shintao might not be the best place for it, and maybe the monk levels will do it; need to do more math that I want to today to check.

True, but you also forget Boots of the Innocent (as I'm sure you're referring to Goristro armor as your second). Both Dun'Robar and the Boots work well on Monk builds as they have useful stats on top of the stunning bonus. Also remember there are alternative options like PDK CHA bonus and Harper KtA for boosting Stunning Fist. I could push 100 Stunning Fist DC, so you can certainly drop a stunning item and "not lose everything". Unfortunately Stunning Fist would not benefit from "Monk Levels" - the DC is based on Character levels. Great for cross-classing, but also means being pure does nothing special for your SF DCs.




they don't need help in epics; in heroics, untill they get dex and wis up to ensure high rates of fire, there weak. They are further hinderd by lack of weapon choices. Until enhancement respec, shurikien were too weak to be effective. thus, few named shuriken, low drop rates. cannith crafting lets you make low end ones, but first you need to get one, and invest in decent crafting scores. Point being you don't always have a good weapon. My cannith suggestion would partially solve that, but still leaves the cannith investment. Even a [1d4,2d4,3d4,4d4] would be enough to grant a bit of elemental where it would do some good(trolls, fire ellementals, etc), and be a pittance at epics. Also, until you get the epic level set of + ki re-gen, ki is pretty tight without getting any on hits.

There are some starter level shurikens (Shadow Star and Snow Star) that have great crit profiles that can last you until Greensteel, which then leads to E*, which then leads to end game. I wouldn't even bother with Cannith crafted. Unfortunately, like Monkchers, Shuricannons have all of their power loaded through feats and EDs. I don't know how you can reliably boost leveling power without it translating to end game, and part of the goal of these passes is to fix game mechanics that die outside of heroics. I want the elemental strikes to scale, so that wouldn't be so small in epics. Besides, how would it apply? Every shuriken of a single throw? Only one of them? To boost leveling throwing builds, I'd say make the throw speed from Shiradi base and just remove that trait. Until then, you're probably best meleeing until you have enough feats under your belt for effective throwing DPS.




True, and a dodge or fort bypass would also be cool. But compared to the dark-void cc which is always handy, highly situational True seeing seemed weak. mine was probably a bit strong.

I probably need to put more thought into this, as the move would become a near carbon-copy of Piercing Clarity. While logical, there is the question if that is the right direction to take. Maybe we can go really old school here and bring back Shintao's Protection from Evil. If that is seen as still too weak, possibly cast True Seeing (which is more befitting of the provided move name) along with Protection from Evil.

New proposal:

- Moment of Clarity
-- Combination: Void - Light - Void
-- 15 Ki
-- You grant yourself and your allies the ability to see Evil with perfect clarity and give protection from it. Grant multiple targets True Seeing and wards from attacks by evil creatures, granting a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus to saves against attacks from evil creatures. The targets are also warded from magical mental control and compulsions. Lasts 60 seconds plus 6 seconds per Monk Level.

I'll update the OP with this, though would love to hear thoughts!

AlexIII
06-08-2015, 01:42 AM
True, but you also forget Boots of the Innocent (as I'm sure you're referring to Goristro armor as your second). Both Dun'Robar and the Boots work well on Monk builds as they have useful stats on top of the stunning bonus. Also remember there are alternative options like PDK CHA bonus and Harper KtA for boosting Stunning Fist. I could push 100 Stunning Fist DC, so you can certainly drop a stunning item and "not lose everything". Unfortunately Stunning Fist would not benefit from "Monk Levels" - the DC is based on Character levels. Great for cross-classing, but also means being pure does nothing special for your SF DCs.

PDK only applies on PDK, bad to count a iconic race as part of the 'expected DC' IMO.

Haper is int based, costs sp. not high on the monk flavor, but not a big ap investment.

I did forget boots, but we are still looking at a rare item. Perhaps the best option is to see this appear on lootgen 2 less than the numbers seen at equivalent level; Looking at it now, I think it is the best solution, provided the drop rate is decent.



Until then, you're probably best meleeing until you have enough feats under your belt for effective throwing DPS.


This is what I am trying to fix, and with the current monkish flavor. Yes its not the main goal of the pass, but while we are looking at the rest of the class, lets see if we can do some math and get something that works. after all, we have months.

as for cannith crafting, shadow star and snow star... dr and regen can make both stars ineffective. leaving you with random and cannith craft. or, since a lot of your feats are shuriken, pretty gimped and fighting with other weapons, since the build is so feat heavy.




I probably need to put more thought into this, as the move would become a near carbon-copy of Piercing Clarity. While logical, there is the question if that is the right direction to take. Maybe we can go really old school here and bring back Shintao's Protection from Evil. If that is seen as still too weak, possibly cast True Seeing (which is more befitting of the provided move name) along with Protection from Evil.

New proposal:

- Moment of Clarity
-- Combination: Void - Light - Void
-- 15 Ki
-- You grant yourself and your allies the ability to see Evil with perfect clarity and give protection from it. Grant multiple targets True Seeing and wards from attacks by evil creatures, granting a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus to saves against attacks from evil creatures. The targets are also warded from magical mental control and compulsions. Lasts 60 seconds plus 6 seconds per Monk Level.

I'll update the OP with this, though would love to hear thoughts![QUOTE=DrawingGuy;5627933]

This looks cool, but I'd make it stacking; deflection and resistance are not rare by lv 10, and mandatory for epic. I don't think +2 will cause balance issues you?

DrawingGuy
06-08-2015, 09:23 AM
PDK only applies on PDK, bad to count a iconic race as part of the 'expected DC' IMO.

Haper is int based, costs sp. not high on the monk flavor, but not a big ap investment.

I did forget boots, but we are still looking at a rare item. Perhaps the best option is to see this appear on lootgen 2 less than the numbers seen at equivalent level; Looking at it now, I think it is the best solution, provided the drop rate is decent.

I'm not saying that PDK should be forced on people, just that it is an option to those looking to max out DCs. It actually would be a poor choice as Monk already has to invest in a ton of stats, and to have to gimp STR to keep CHA higher is a questionable choice. Though if they do allow wraps to work off stats other than STR, Monk does have two CC moves that are CHA based and boosting UMD is always useful. PDK may become a solid choice for Monk builds.

KtA is currently nearly a must for pure Monks - it also boosts your Quivering Palm making it one of the only ways to bring the DC out of the gutter. Add in the Combat Expertise 13 INT requirement for those that want Whirlwind, and already INT is not a dump stat (unless you have a +5 tome and can wait until end-game to have the move). The SP requirement is small potatoes considering you can get 250 SP from items/augments and 150 from Greensteel. Each clicky you get should fill that again. Most people snag blue bars for Cocoon, so really the only barrier is not having the Harper tree. I don't think KtA should be the only way to get effective QP and SF DCs (and Monk Levels would help QP albiet at a half rate. I personally think QP should be full Monk levels), but it is a strong option.

Boots of the Innocent are not that hard to get. They drop in Vol, one of the easiest Orchard quests. They have no random stats leaving no 'specific combo' chance rarity, drop in every difficulty, and are not a Mythic rare. Plus they have a chance at chain end reward. Sure, it can take a few runs unless you're lucky, but it can safely go on most players' build plans. I also expect more gear based stun items to be created in the future as Monk is far from the only class with a stun. All of this is not to say I wouldn't like some stun bonuses in one of the trees (probably Shintao), but I would much rather they pay attention to the other Monk DCs.




This is what I am trying to fix, and with the current monkish flavor. Yes its not the main goal of the pass, but while we are looking at the rest of the class, lets see if we can do some math and get something that works. after all, we have months.

as for cannith crafting, shadow star and snow star... dr and regen can make both stars ineffective. leaving you with random and cannith craft. or, since a lot of your feats are shuriken, pretty gimped and fighting with other weapons, since the build is so feat heavy.

That's where making the Shiradi throw speed base would come in. That alone would make leveling with throwing builds a solid option. Monk extra Shurikens and Shuriken Expertise both can be gained in your first 3 levels, so you're already stacking on proc rates. The key really is shifting some of the end game power forward if you're looking to boost the early levels without boosting the already extremely strong end game.



This looks cool, but I'd make it stacking; deflection and resistance are not rare by lv 10, and mandatory for epic. I don't think +2 will cause balance issues you?

The +2 AC would not stack as it is a deflection bonus. The +2 Saves would stack against Evil creatures as it is a resistance bonus against Evil creatures (which is unique to a straight resistance bonus) unless that is somehow shared with the Tainted Creatures protection. Though immunity to Commands and Dominates is the biggest reason for Protection from Evil. To change it to make the AC and Saves stack uniquely would require special coding - to just give back Protection from Evil to Light Monks would be simply reusing in game mechanics. Making it easier on the Devs also means it's more likely. :)

General_Gronker
06-08-2015, 10:57 AM
- Fix Handwraps to count as weapons. Good idea.

Allow Elemental Monk moves to scale with Melee Power. Better idea - get rid of them.

Finishing Moves: Better idea - get rid of them.

This is DDO, based on 3/3.5 D&D. This is NOT Street Fighter. The monk needs to be completely redesigned from the ground up, getting rid of Ki and all of the SF combo BS.

Any ideas that ignore that truth are poor ideas.

DrawingGuy
06-08-2015, 12:11 PM
"Redesigned from the ground up" in you mean so that they are just "turn on auto attack and spam move a, b, or c on cooldown"? The complexity of Monk moves is why I love them so much as I find them much more fun to play than Barb, Pally, or Fighter. Yes, combos diverge from PnP, but this is DDO. MotU really was the cut when DDO was a game based on D&D 3.5 and instead became a game inspired by 3.5. The ship is far too long gone to bring it back to those roots, so instead of trying to rip out what many find fun in DDO, let's look at how we can make it work and compete in the current ecosystem.

ThreadNecromancer
06-08-2015, 12:31 PM
Remove Poisoned Darts. Replace with Dance of the Water Strider.

ThreadNecromancer
06-08-2015, 12:48 PM
Agreed recoding wraps to count as weapons is a must in today's game. This should fix many of the issues where many things just do not work with wraps should solve part of the scaling issues they have in epics.

Void strikes again for every monk would be nice.

Every light casts a shadow needs the cooldown reduced to 6 seconds to better allow people to use dark finishers with it as well as the bug(feature) that negative levels your party to be fixed. Shadows cannot exist without light needs the DoT to scale with melee power and the heal to scale with either melee power or positive energy.

Been a while since I played a dark monk mostly only play as a light monk but touch of death needs some love. Should scale with melee power, make the save the greater of dex/wis and revert to how it used to be where you could multi-hit with it.

taking the emphasis off earth stance throughout.


All good ideas.

DrawingGuy
06-08-2015, 01:18 PM
Remove Poisoned Darts. Replace with Dance of the Water Strider.

This. Thank you! Ninja Spy tree updated accordingly.

ThreadNecromancer
06-08-2015, 02:03 PM
I like a lot of the ideas you have there but its tough to multi quote from my phone at work. I'll check them out later however.

I miss the Water Strider... was one of the abilities that drew me to monks initially.

TeacherSyn
06-08-2015, 03:20 PM
Ninja Spy Tree
This line is good on the low end, but higher tiers are weak. Also think cores need some shuffling and work.
- Allow Ninja Poison to scale with Melee Power will fix most of the tree abilities
- Providing some core melee power will allow monks to close some of the existing power gap


Core Abilities:
- Basic Ninja Training (no change other than allowing unarmed with Vorpal Strikes/Brawling Glvoes/Ivy Wraps)

- Advanced Ninja Training (no change other than allowing unarmed with Vorpal Strikes/Brawling Glvoes/Ivy Wraps)

- (new) Dance of the Water Strider
-- You focus your ki and can run across liquids as if they were solid - so long as you maintain your concentration and perform no other actions, and do not stop running forward. Hazardous liquids (such as lava) will inflict their effects on you as if you were wading in them. (Cost 20 Ki)
-- 5 Melee Power

- Shadow Veil (moved up a rank to make 6 Monk splash less powerful)

- Diversion (no change)
-- 5 Melee Power

- Ninja Master
-- +4 Dexterity
-- you gain a +1 Competence bonus to the Critical Threat Range with Short Swords, Longswords, and Longbows. You gain a +2 Competence bonus to the Critical Threat Range with Kamas and Shuriken.
-- Any piercing or slashing weapon you wield gains the Vorpal ability.
-- 10 Melee Power


Tier One:
- Ninjutsu
-- Impending Doom: If the enemy affected by your Touch of Despair dies within the next 30 seconds, you gain 25 Ki and 25 temporary hit points. Enemies immune to your Touch of Despair cannot be Doomed. Temporary Hit Points scale 200% with melee power.
-- Poison Exploit: On a failed saving throw, your Touch of Despair finisher purges an enemy of Ninja Poison, dealing 1d20 poison damage per stack of Ninja Poison removed. Scales 100% with melee power.
-- Poisoned Soul (no changed as Ninja Poison scaling would boost this)
-- Wave of Despair (no change)

- Stealthy (no change)

- SA Training (no change)

- Faster Sneaking (no change)

- Acrobatic (no change)


Tier Two:
- Ninjutsu (see Tier One)

- Subtlety: -20%/-30%/-40% threat generation with melee and ranged attacks.

- SA Training (no change)

- Elemental Ki Strike (see Shintao tree for suggestions on this)

- Agility (no change)


Tier Three:
- Ninjutsu (see Tier One)

- Flash Bang (no change)

- SA Training (no change)

- Sting of the Ninja (Ninja Poison scaling would help this. Would also like unarmed attacks that have piercing/slashing to qualify)

- Dex / Wis


Tier Four:
- Ninjutsu (see Tier One)

- Deadly Exploits: Your Poison Exploit now deals 1d30/1d40/1d50 poison damage per stack of Ninja Poison removed. Scales 100% with melee power.

- SA Training (no change)

- No Mercy (Lower to 1 AP)

- Dex / Wis


Tier Five:
- Touch of Death: Dark Ki Melee Attack: You strike a living opponent down with twisted Ki, dealing 500 additional negative energy damage. (Activation Cost: 50 Ki. Cooldown: 15 seconds)
-- Either: Your opponent takes half damage on a successful Fortitude save (DC = 10 + Wisdom modifier + your monk level). Scales with Negative Spellpower.
-- Or: Scales 100% with melee power, no save

- (new) Measure the Foe: Gain +6 Melee Power, +2 Dodge, +2 Maximum Dodge, and +1 to hit for every 4/2/1 seconds you remain stealthed. This effect stacks up to five times, and lasts 10 seconds after you come out of stealth.

- Crippling Strike (no change)

- Shadow Double: You gain 2[W] and 100% melee doublestrike for 6 seconds (Activation Cost: 30 Ki. Cooldown: 30 seconds)

I have to jump in on this one.

I don't see extra Melee Power coming to Ninja Poison. It's already a debuffing effect, increasing Poison vulnerability by 100%. And no matter how much Melee Power you gain, it's still going to do nothing against poison-immune enemies like devils. A Drow with Venomed Blades gets a 200% Melee Power boost, gets magnified by Ninja Poison, too. I have a character that takes advantage of this.

As to Melee Power as a whole, I wouldn't mind seeing +1 Melee Power for each core, with +3 on Ninja Master. As to +1 Critical Threat Range to Longbows--that seems like a reach, considering that none of your other proposals allow for any other support to bows. It's not that I don't like it, but little else in the tree (save SA), especially Sting of the Nina in its current form, support bows. That's a lot to train for little gain. I'd be all for it if Sting worked with bows.

On adding Unarmed DEX-to-Damage to cores 1 and 2: Overpowering. Ninja Spies specialize in weapons. The devs purposely closed the loophole on the enhancement's introduction that let Ninja Poison work on items that had slashing or piercing effects such as Ivy Wraps and noted that Ninja Training/Advanced is for weapons only. I don't see them opening this up again. If they make handwraps into weapons, that throws my argument out of the water--and likely begins breaking the game because of cascading bugs with the change. I'd sooner add more Melee Power to unarmed and boost their innate Unarmed Strike damage than change that item.

Dance of the Water Strider: I missed this when it was removed, but even I don't care about anymore. Most places where you'd like it to work will not function (the Vale's lake, for one, which they never recoded). I know it was great in the Abbot raid, but otherwise it has absolutely no strategic function. I think Poisoned Darts could be reapplied as a separate enhancement, but I'd rather see a Lesser Void Strike appear here or as a Tier Three enhancement.

Shadow Veil: I see that penalty on 6 Monk levels unnecessary. If you want to limit it in some capacity for some reason, you could apply an minimum WIS or level of Concentration.

Sting of the Ninja: Same answer to being overpowered and closed to unarmed strikes. I wouldn't mind seeing this opened up to centered bows, however, or darts for Kensei characters.

Measure the Foe: Not a bad option at all.

Shadow Double: Adding a little more damage isn't overpowering at all for that brief period.

AbyssalMage
06-08-2015, 04:59 PM
Just responding with my own opinion on your suggestions. Overall I like the direction and believe the player base should begin the conversation so the Players Council and Developers gain insight on (a larger segment) player thoughts, even if it doesn't align with their own.



White text is how it already exists in game. Red text are new suggestions. Will just type (no change) for when I think no change is needed. Refer to in-game or the wiki for skill details.

Global Monk Changes:
- Fix Handwraps to count as weapons. This should fix man stat-to-damage lockouts and move issues (though animations may need work)
- Allow Elemental Monk moves to scale with Melee Power.
- Add "Monk Levels" to game like other caster levels so that DCs can become scalable. This would allow for Martial ED cores (especially GMoF) to add levels, enhancements, and possibly even items, so all Monk moves can be balanced in multiple ways rather than the single stat that exists now.
I would also like Monk Handwraps to be converted into "weapons" so they don't break so easily, and more importantly, work with all ED's.
Elemental Monk moves should scale with Spell Power for game consistency. All "scalable" means is Power Creep. That has already infiltrated the game so I see no reason to not add more.



Finishing Moves:
Dark Monk finishers are actually pretty solid, and manipulating Monk Levels would help DC issues in their respect. All other finishers, though....
Maybe...but looking at them in comparison to "the big picture" is also important.
Will players still choose "Dark Monk" with your current ideas on Light Monks?


Elemental Finishers:
- The Trembling Earth
-- Combination: Earth - Earth - Earth
-- 10 Ki.
-- The attack has +2 critical multiplier, and the victim is turned into stone (similar to Flesh to Stone) for 30 seconds.
-- Fortitude save negates (DC 10 + Monk Level + Wisdom Modifier)

- The Gathering Storm
-- Combination: Air - Air - Air
-- 10 Ki.
-- Cast Haste for 30 seconds.

- The Raging Sea
-- Combination: Water - Water - Water
-- 10 Ki.
-- The enemy is knocked down for three seconds
-- Fortitude save negates (DC 10 + Monk Level + Wisdom Modifier + trip modifiers)

- Breath of the Fire Dragon
-- Combination: Fire - Fire - Fire
-- 10 Ki.
-- A cone of searing flame shoots forth, damaging targets in the area of the flames for 1d6 damage per Monk level.
-- A successful Reflex save (DC 10 + Monk Level + Wisdom Modifier) reduces the damage by half. Scales with Combustion spell power.
Elemental Finishers should be damage based. Scaling with Spell Power should be sufficient IMHO. Although adding a secondary effect would be nice.
All secondary effects on Vorpal:

Earth - Stun (single) // AoE increased threat (a lot)
Air - Knockdown
Water - AoE
Fire - AoE



Path of Harmonious Balance Finishers
- Healing Ki (no changes needed if Elemental Curatives is boosted)
-- Combination: Light - Light - Light
-- 10 Ki.
-- You heal all nearby allies for 1d4 plus 1d4 per two monk levels.

- Grasp the Earth Dragon
-- Combination: Earth - Light - Earth
-- 10 Ki.
-- Nearby allies become immune to daze, stun, sleep, and stat damage for 60 seconds plus 6 seconds per Monk Level.

- Dance of Clouds
-- Combination: Air - Light - Air
-- 10 Ki.
-- Nearby allies gain 30% concealment for 60 seconds plus 6 seconds per Monk Level. (boost to party over blurry/lesser items, but not as good as displacement)

- Aligning the Heavens
-- Combination: Water - Light - Water
-- 10 Ki.
-- Nearby allies gain a 25% reduction in spell point costs for 60 seconds plus 6 seconds per Monk Level.

- Walk of the Sun
-- Combination: Fire - Light - Fire
-- 10 Ki.
-- Nearby allies gain a +2 untyped bonus to attack, damage, saves, and skills for 60 seconds plus 6 seconds per Monk Level.

- Moment of Clarity
-- Combination: Void - Light - Void
-- 15 Ki
-- You grant yourself and your allies the ability to see Evil with perfect clarity and give protection from it. Grant multiple targets True Seeing and wards from attacks by evil creatures, granting a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus to saves against attacks from evil creatures. The targets are also warded from magical mental control and compulsions. Lasts 60 seconds plus 6 seconds per Monk Level.

Protection of Evil has been proxy nerfed for since MotU, although True Seeing is a welcome addition.


Path of Inevitable Dominion Finishers
With these finishers being pretty solid and possible DC boosts, only two moves do I see wanting changes:

- Karmic Strike
-- Combination: Fire - Dark - Fire
-- 10 Ki.
-- This attack is guaranteed to produce critical threat with a +1 Crit Multiplier if it hits.
-- Using this finisher also costs the user 20 hit points, which cannot be reduced by effects such as Damage Resistance.

- Curse of the Void
-- Combination: Void - Dark - Void
-- Have this follow the new "Confused" status from Warlock (up to 2 minutes).
-- A Will Save (DC 10 + Monk level + Wisdom bonus) negates this effect.
-- Each time the target takes damage there is a chance that they will break free of this effect.

Curse of the Void looks promising. A save every 6 seconds (or what ever the current standard is) makes it more valuable. As you level, damage comes quicker making it worthless by level 28/30.

AbyssalMage
06-08-2015, 05:23 PM
Let me preface this with the idea that I believe this should play well with Rogue as well as Ninja Spy and Shintao

Henshin Mystic Tree
This one needs the most work, though the proposed change to have "Monk Levels" able to be raised through EDs and enhancements will help this tree and Monk moves across the board.
- Align the staff power with that of Thief-Acrobat
- Bring Henshin casting powers to relevance
- Open up Void Strike so Monks have access to Void combos again outside of Tier 5 Henshin
Think I am with you so far. It really is in need of the most help so I basically skip it.



Core Abilities:
- Riddle of Fire: +5 Fire and Force Spell Power, 1% Fire and Force Spell Critical chance, +2 Fire Resistance, and -2 Enemy Fire Resistance per Henshin Mystic Tree Core

- Ki Bolt (no change)
-- +1 Enhancement bonus to staff weapons

- Sounding Staff (no change)
-- +1 Enhancement bonus to staff weapons

- Incinerating Wave: You produce a stationary wall of Ki flame, dealing 5d6 fire and force damage plus 1 point of fire and force damage per two monk levels every 2 seconds to all opponents near it. A successful Reflex save (DC 10 + Monk Level + Wisdom Modifier) reduces damage by half.
-- +1 Enhancement bonus to staff weapons

- Cauldron of Flame: You expend a use of Meditation to will flame into the world around you. Enemies around you take 2d6 fire damage per monk level every 2 seconds, increasing by an additional 2d6 fire damage every 2 seconds that you remain standing in the center of the flames. If you leave the very center of the flames, this effect ends. A successful Reflex save (DC 10 + Monk Level + Wisdom Modifier) reduces damage by half.

- Serenity: Your understanding of things has evolved to a level that defies description.
-- +4 Wisdom
-- +10 Concentration
-- +1 Passive Ki Generation
-- +20 Fire and Force Spell Power (stacks with Riddle)
-- +5% Fire and Force Spell Critical Chance (stacks with Riddle)
-- +2 Monk Levels for all DCs that use Monk levels

Passive Spell Power should be placed in the cores (6, 12, 18, 20?). This would build synergy between Monk Finishing Moves as well as the Quasi-staff spell caster build they are meant to be.


Tier One:
- (new) Swift Striking: +5%/+10%/+15% attack speed with quarterstaves.

- Henshin Staff Training (no change)

- Mystic Training: +1/+2/+3 to your Monk Level

- Negotiator: +1/+2/+3 Bluff, Diplomacy, and Haggle. Rank 3: The cooldown for your Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Ki Shout are reduced by 10%.

- Animal Forms (no change)
Animal Forms - Needs a revamp. Maybe saved for a different thread?

Mystic Training - Not sure how useful this honestly is with most abilities having hard caps.



Tier Two:
- (new) Void Strike I: Void Ki Melee Attack: You have learned to make attacks backed by pure Ki energy. On Hit: 2d6 Force damage. On Vorpal: 5d6 Force damage. Scales with Force Spell Power. (Activation Cost: 5 Ki. Cooldown: 3 seconds)

- Henshin Staff Training (no change)

- Quick Strike: Melee Quarterstaff Attack: Deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage. You gain a 5%/15%/25% Morale bonus to melee doublestrike for 10 seconds. (Cooldown: 18/15/12 seconds)

- Elemental Ki Strike (see Shintao tree for suggestions on this)

- Contemplation (no change)


Tier Three:
- (new) Void Strike II: Void Ki Melee Attack: You have learned to make attacks backed by pure Ki energy. On Hit: 4d6 Force damage. On Vorpal: Enemy is dazed for 12 seconds. Scales with Force Spell Power. (Activation Cost: 7 Ki. Cooldown: 3 seconds)

- Henshin Staff Training (no change)

- Lighting the Candle: Weapon Stance: While you are centered, you enhance your attacks with Ki flame. Two handed weapons gain On Hit: 1d4/1d6/1d8 Fire damage and On Critical: 1d10/2d10/3d10 Force damage. One handed weapons and handwraps gain On Hit: 1d2/1d3/1d4 Fire damage and On Critical: 1d6/2d6/3d6 Force damage. Scales with Fire and Force Spell Power. Your Ki generation on hit is reduced by 1.

- Embrace the Void: Gain 1/2/3 Meditation use per rest, and regenerate Ki faster while meditating. While you are meditating, you gain 10/20/30 PRR and MRR and generate a protective shield which can absorb up to 25/50/100 damage, and is refreshed every 3 seconds.

- Ability score option

Tier Four:
- (new) Void Strike III: Void Ki Melee Attack: You have learned to make attacks backed by pure Ki energy. On Hit: 6d6 Force damage. On Vorpal: Enemy is paralyzed for 60 seconds. Scales with Force Spell Power. (Activation Cost: 10 Ki. Cooldown: 3 seconds)

- Henshin Staff Training (no change)

- Elemental Words: Now a single Tier 4 trait that comes with all four options

- Focus (no change)

- Ability score option


Tier Five:
- Void Strike IV (no change other than force scaling)

- (new) Henshin Staff Training: +3 to hit and +3 damage with quarterstaves.

- Staff Specialization (no change)

- (new) One of two options. Toggle.
-- Being of Force: +10 Force spell power. +10 Force resistance. Immunity to Magic/Force/Chain missiles.
-- Being of Fire: +10 Fire spell power. +10 Fire Resistance. +10 PRR.

- Balance in Dawn: Select a melee attack that opposes your philosophy:
-- Every Light Casts a Shadow: Dark Ki Melee Attack: Perform an attack with +2[W] damage. On Damage: Target suffers 1d4 Negative Levels. If the target dies within 10 seconds, all nearby enemies suffer 1d2 Negative Levels. (Cost: 15 Ki. Cooldown: 6 seconds)
-- Requires Path of Harmonious Balance

-- Shadows Cannot Exist Without Light: Light Ki Melee Attack: Perform an attack with +2[W] damage. On Damage: Target suffers 1d6 Light damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. This can stack up to 10 times. If the target dies within 10 seconds, all allies around the target receive 100 Positive Energy healing. Light damage scales 100% with Melee Power. Healing is affected by Positive Spell Power. (Cost: 15 Ki. Cooldown: 6 seconds)
-- Requires Path of Inevitable Dominion
Void Strike - Consolidate this into one activated ability (3 upgrades) with Tier IV (dazed/stunned) and Tier V (paralyzing) being passive abilities tied to the Tier 3 ability. I hate smashing buttons and Monks, even in their current form, have a lot of buttons to smash.

AlexIII
06-08-2015, 05:25 PM
I I don't think KtA should be the only way to get effective QP and SF DCs
all I've been saying with proposed fixes. just cus boots are not hard to get, doesn't change that they drop in one place and have high ml.



That's where making the Shiradi throw speed base would come in. That alone would make leveling with throwing builds a solid option. Monk extra Shurikens and Shuriken Expertise both can be gained in your first 3 levels, so you're already stacking on proc rates. The key really is shifting some of the end game power forward if you're looking to boost the early levels without boosting the already extremely strong end game.

I misread the moving shiradi speed to base (oops). still doesn't fix that low level(6+, when the feat difference starts to set in) shuricannon basically uses the second bar for 1 ability. and can only use it after twice its cool-down. its just a generally dull play. The thing is, numbers get much bigger fast at epic. if the boost is small, and the ki from throwing is low, it would not be used often. Plus, epic shuricannon don't take serenity or balance in all things when powerful, so they don't get that high a passive regen to trivialize it. ocean vs wind is a big question with it. If my numbers are too high, that's one thing. but the basic model should hold. If you can think of another way to make non-boring heroic, I will rejoice.



The +2 AC would not stack as it is a deflection bonus. The +2 Saves would stack against Evil creatures as it is a resistance bonus against Evil creatures (which is unique to a straight resistance bonus) unless that is somehow shared with the Tainted Creatures protection. Though immunity to Commands and Dominates is the biggest reason for Protection from Evil. To change it to make the AC and Saves stack uniquely would require special coding - to just give back Protection from Evil to Light Monks would be simply reusing in game mechanics. Making it easier on the Devs also means it's more likely. :)
true, but a 1st level spell plus highly situational isn't much better than a highly situational to me. Still, not the biggest thing.

DrawingGuy
06-08-2015, 05:43 PM
I have to jump in on this one.

I don't see extra Melee Power coming to Ninja Poison. It's already a debuffing effect, increasing Poison vulnerability by 100%. And no matter how much Melee Power you gain, it's still going to do nothing against poison-immune enemies like devils. A Drow with Venomed Blades gets a 200% Melee Power boost, gets magnified by Ninja Poison, too. I have a character that takes advantage of this.

As to Melee Power as a whole, I wouldn't mind seeing +1 Melee Power for each core, with +3 on Ninja Master. As to +1 Critical Threat Range to Longbows--that seems like a reach, considering that none of your other proposals allow for any other support to bows. It's not that I don't like it, but little else in the tree (save SA), especially Sting of the Nina in its current form, support bows. That's a lot to train for little gain. I'd be all for it if Sting worked with bows.

On adding Unarmed DEX-to-Damage to cores 1 and 2: Overpowering. Ninja Spies specialize in weapons. The devs purposely closed the loophole on the enhancement's introduction that let Ninja Poison work on items that had slashing or piercing effects such as Ivy Wraps and noted that Ninja Training/Advanced is for weapons only. I don't see them opening this up again. If they make handwraps into weapons, that throws my argument out of the water--and likely begins breaking the game because of cascading bugs with the change. I'd sooner add more Melee Power to unarmed and boost their innate Unarmed Strike damage than change that item.

Dance of the Water Strider: I missed this when it was removed, but even I don't care about anymore. Most places where you'd like it to work will not function (the Vale's lake, for one, which they never recoded). I know it was great in the Abbot raid, but otherwise it has absolutely no strategic function. I think Poisoned Darts could be reapplied as a separate enhancement, but I'd rather see a Lesser Void Strike appear here or as a Tier Three enhancement.

Shadow Veil: I see that penalty on 6 Monk levels unnecessary. If you want to limit it in some capacity for some reason, you could apply an minimum WIS or level of Concentration.

Sting of the Ninja: Same answer to being overpowered and closed to unarmed strikes. I wouldn't mind seeing this opened up to centered bows, however, or darts for Kensei characters.

Measure the Foe: Not a bad option at all.

Shadow Double: Adding a little more damage isn't overpowering at all for that brief period.

Why would allowing Dex to Damage on handwraps be broken? As it stands unarmed Monk remains the most Multi-Attribute strapped class in the game. They can only get damage from STR; they need DEX for TWF, Reflex and AC; They need CON for HP, Fortitude saves, and Concentration; They need INT for Know the Angles to help counter the QP nerf as well as Combat Expertise; They need WIS for DC, Will saves, and AC; And while lowest priority, CHA for UMD and two of their CC moves. I fail to see the broken aspect of relieving one of the stat locks on an already underperforming DPS option. And I, for one, would much rather have build options opened up rather than just adding damage to make up for those that do stat spread. You're right, though - I don't see them recoding wraps as weapons successfully. So much is already broken with unarmed that a change would likely only break more. Coding it from the ground up is probably the only way, and I don't see them doing that. Adding the WIS options in Shintao tree would at least give one option outside of STR.

The Ninja Poison application I don't see as "overpowered" on unarmed - unarmed has a poor crit profile, so wouldn't stack as well as the expanded crit profiles of weapons, let alone Shurikens. Though if they decide that it should be blocked despite the logic of thorned/spiked/bladed gloves, then fine. Unarmed's issues are not the lack of Ninja Poison. As for Bows, I admit I forgot about Sting of the Ninja not working with bows, and think it should be changed to apply.

Dance of the Water Strider I personally would much rather have than Poisoned Darts. It had strategic function in Abbot and LOB and was plain fun to use. This should also apply in MOD. If they fixed areas such as Vale lake, it would have convenience usage as well. However the weakness of Poisoned Darts or the limited usages of DotWS is why I feel this Core needed additional passive support. My particular suggestion was Melee Power. I feel applying melee in larger chunks on the weaker cores rather than spread out can help make each core feel rewarding in unique ways. The third option of a Lesser Void Strike is what I looked to address in the Henshin tree, so would be unneeded if they followed it.

Really, why does almost 100% of Monk's survivability need to be loaded in the first 6 levels? All dodge, access to all stances, and access to all survival enhancements? I believe some of that should be spread out - if they are to address Monk survivability, they need to take out the option of granting it to everyone with a mere splash. I'm actually one that was disappointed that the Divine Grace level cap didn't get implemented. This is just but a small step on placing some unique survival options for actually at least having a Monk icon on your party bar. And while I'll defend my viewpoint, it's hardly something I'll fight tooth and nail for - curbing splash power is of little concern compared to other aspects.

DrawingGuy
06-08-2015, 06:31 PM
Just responding with my own opinion on your suggestions. Overall I like the direction and believe the player base should begin the conversation so the Players Council and Developers gain insight on (a larger segment) player thoughts, even if it doesn't align with their own.

I would also like Monk Handwraps to be converted into "weapons" so they don't break so easily, and more importantly, work with all ED's.
Elemental Monk moves should scale with Spell Power for game consistency. All "scalable" means is Power Creep. That has already infiltrated the game so I see no reason to not add more.

Maybe...but looking at them in comparison to "the big picture" is also important.
Will players still choose "Dark Monk" with your current ideas on Light Monks?

With TOD scaling and more CC and DPS options than Light Monks, I don't see why not - especially if the DCs of their moves can be made viable. Ignorance and low DCs is the only reason 100% of monks are not Dark right now... though ever since the passes started, I've only seen one pure monk. So not much sample size to go off of. :p




Elemental Finishers should be damage based. Scaling with Spell Power should be sufficient IMHO. Although adding a secondary effect would be nice.
All secondary effects on Vorpal:

Earth - Stun (single) // AoE increased threat (a lot)
Air - Knockdown
Water - AoE
Fire - AoE



I initially stated to have Elemental moves scale with spell power, but that is a lot of build need spread with little gain. Melee Power would not scale as high as Spell Power, but would at least give some solid universal scaling to the moves. Either option I would be happy with. However the secondary procs on Vorpal I feel are a bit much and would be a ton of work to code. I'd rather see power balanced through controllable things like finishers and raw DPS rather than RNG.




Protection of Evil has been proxy nerfed for since MotU, although True Seeing is a welcome addition.

Curse of the Void looks promising. A save every 6 seconds (or what ever the current standard is) makes it more valuable. As you level, damage comes quicker making it worthless by level 28/30.

I would like them to fix Greater Command loopholes rather than dismiss Protection from Evil.

Dismissing Curse of the Void is essentially dismissing most other CCs as well. Confuse is still undergoing testing, but I personally see it as being fun. Trash dying too quick to bother CCing probably won't stay as a permanent end-game status quote.




Passive Spell Power should be placed in the cores (6, 12, 18, 20?). This would build synergy between Monk Finishing Moves as well as the Quasi-staff spell caster build they are meant to be.

I already have passive Spell Power being applied to every core: Riddle of Fire: +5 Fire and Force Spell Power, 1% Fire and Force Spell Critical chance, +2 Fire Resistance, and -2 Enemy Fire Resistance per Henshin Mystic Tree Core




Animal Forms - Needs a revamp. Maybe saved for a different thread?

Personally I think the bonuses they provide for only 2 AP is fine, though there are some forms that are definitely better than others. Feel free to make suggestions! I do want this thread to be comprehensive for when (if) a Dev reads this.




Mystic Training - Not sure how useful this honestly is with most abilities having hard caps.

Monk moves do not have caps beyond the simple fact that as it exists now, there is absolutely no way to raise them other than pumping everything into a stat, and even then you can't get high enough DCs. Monk level would work like Caster Levels do now, just that Monk moves have a much smaller selection and no cap beyond the existence of what Monk Level increases they might add. That means that if they make Epic levels count (as they are currently proposing to do with Caster Levels), each level would count +1 DC towards moves that count Monk levels (or half or whatever the formula calls for).




Void Strike - Consolidate this into one activated ability (3 upgrades) with Tier IV (dazed/stunned) and Tier V (paralyzing) being passive abilities tied to the Tier 3 ability. I hate smashing buttons and Monks, even in their current form, have a lot of buttons to smash.

"Upgrading" would simply limit choices. If all you care about is the Erasure on Void IV, just use that move and ignore the previous ones. Otherwise take the moves and enjoy your additional Force based moves. You don't have the Ki to continuously spam all of your moves - you adapt to the situation using the appropriate moves. The flexibility of Monks is part of their fun: We don't want any moves to be useless, but on the same token they don't need to be 100% perfect for 100% of situations. Flip bars around as quests demand, or cherry pick the moves you like the most.

DrawingGuy
06-08-2015, 06:57 PM
Sorry for the triple post - just addressing my thoughts to each user as they came in.


all I've been saying with proposed fixes. just cus boots are not hard to get, doesn't change that they drop in one place and have high ml.

It's just the simple fact that they have to plan for it. If everyone can get 100% stunning DCs with no further investment via items or special abilities like KtA or PDK, then what's the point of them? As I mentioned, I was getting 100 DC on my SF, and even subtracting the +12 item and +10 from KTA that is still 78 SF. SF is still a great move and has solid DCs, it just happens to pale in comparison to overpowered moves like Frozen Fury.




I misread the moving shiradi speed to base (oops). still doesn't fix that low level(6+, when the feat difference starts to set in) shuricannon basically uses the second bar for 1 ability. and can only use it after twice its cool-down. its just a generally dull play. The thing is, numbers get much bigger fast at epic. if the boost is small, and the ki from throwing is low, it would not be used often. Plus, epic shuricannon don't take serenity or balance in all things when powerful, so they don't get that high a passive regen to trivialize it. ocean vs wind is a big question with it. If my numbers are too high, that's one thing. but the basic model should hold. If you can think of another way to make non-boring heroic, I will rejoice.

Well, once you get super early levels I find it hard to argue methods. Even casters usually melee (or use wands) at those levels until they have the spells and SP to support actual casting. I also think you're underestimating the power of +60% throw speed throughout leveling - if anything, that may be too powerful.

As for making it "non-boring", sadly I personally consider that a lost cause. The reason I don't play Shuricannons and Monkchers is I consider the most blindingly boring builds ever. Who cares if I can do 60k+ every 20s or a few K every throw when all you do is run backwards in a circle hitting the same 1-3 buttons through the entire quest? Sure, allowing Monk moves could help add interest to the build, but you'd either be brokenly OP, or useless due to Ki management. And if you plan on spreading in melee to keep the Ki going, you can already do the Monk moves in melee.




true, but a 1st level spell plus highly situational isn't much better than a highly situational to me. Still, not the biggest thing.

I'm OK with situational moves. It's when the moves have no situation where they would be used that it is a problem.

AlexIII
06-08-2015, 08:46 PM
Sorry for the triple post - just addressing my thoughts to each user as they came in.

It's just the simple fact that they have to plan for it. If everyone can get 100% stunning DCs with no further investment via items or special abilities like KtA or PDK, then what's the point of them? As I mentioned, I was getting 100 DC on my SF, and even subtracting the +12 item and +10 from KTA that is still 78 SF. SF is still a great move and has solid DCs, it just happens to pale in comparison to overpowered moves like Frozen Fury.


My latest suggestion does include an item investment. and your stuns are 10% less effective if you use the item instead of stunning wraps, seal of dun robar, or epic boots of the innocent. Just opens up some gear options.



Well, once you get super early levels I find it hard to argue methods. Even casters usually melee (or use wands) at those levels until they have the spells and SP to support actual casting. I also think you're underestimating the power of +60% throw speed throughout leveling - if anything, that may be too powerful.

As for making it "non-boring", sadly I personally consider that a lost cause. The reason I don't play Shuricannons and Monkchers is I consider the most blindingly boring builds ever. Who cares if I can do 60k+ every 20s or a few K every throw when all you do is run backwards in a circle hitting the same 1-3 buttons through the entire quest? Sure, allowing Monk moves could help add interest to the build, but you'd either be brokenly OP, or useless due to Ki management. And if you plan on spreading in melee to keep the Ki going, you can already do the Monk moves in melee.


or to balance the ki move damage boost, reduce or remove some of the bonuses they get. I won't give up thinking about it. A shuricannon should be a fun play like the rest of the monk class.

AbyssalMage
06-09-2015, 02:24 AM
With TOD scaling and more CC and DPS options than Light Monks, I don't see why not - especially if the DCs of their moves can be made viable. Ignorance and low DCs is the only reason 100% of monks are not Dark right now... though ever since the passes started, I've only seen one pure monk. So not much sample size to go off of. :p
Would explain why I am always holding their Soul Stone in my bag or using UMD :p



I initially stated to have Elemental moves scale with spell power, but that is a lot of build need spread with little gain. Melee Power would not scale as high as Spell Power, but would at least give some solid universal scaling to the moves. Either option I would be happy with. However the secondary procs on Vorpal I feel are a bit much and would be a ton of work to code. I'd rather see power balanced through controllable things like finishers and raw DPS rather than RNG.
Yeah, just expressing Spell Power for consistency across "spell casting" classes. Even if its a quasi-caster. I know it isn't the most popular choice but we have two other tree's to play in and place melee power.


I would like them to fix Greater Command loopholes rather than dismiss Protection from Evil.
So would I but I don't see it happening. Therefore, True Seeing alone makes the suggestion useful. Also, Protection from Evil works in content before MotU//U15(?, as far as I can tell) so it's still useful.


Dismissing Curse of the Void is essentially dismissing most other CCs as well. Confuse is still undergoing testing, but I personally see it as being fun. Trash dying too quick to bother CCing probably won't stay as a permanent end-game status quote.
My comment was more about "a new save on damage." If they are going to code something or add something to Monks, make it viable throughout all levels. At max level, too many classes have built for insane DPS simply because DDO is a DPS game. Even if you get the Finisher off and the NPC fails its initial save, therefor becoming confused, the chances of it remaining confused for 2 to 6 seconds is nil, or very close, making the ability worthless to even sequence. I love the idea, I just rather see it on a set global timer to recheck its save instead of "on hit".


I already have passive Spell Power being applied to every core: Riddle of Fire: +5 Fire and Force Spell Power, 1% Fire and Force Spell Critical chance, +2 Fire Resistance, and -2 Enemy Fire Resistance per Henshin Mystic Tree Core
That only effects Fire and Force. I am talking about universal Spell Power because Fire and Force does not effect the other finishers except Fire (and maybe Earth, as it is listed as Untyped, from memory).


Personally I think the bonuses they provide for only 2 AP is fine, though there are some forms that are definitely better than others. Feel free to make suggestions! I do want this thread to be comprehensive for when (if) a Dev reads this.
Animal Forms:

Way of the Clever Monkey: Like a monkey, no trap in the world can catch you. You gain +1 to your haggle skill and all saves against traps, as well as energy resistance 2. At monk levels 3, 9, and 15, the skill and save bonuses increase by 1 and energy resistance increases by 2. +4 saves vs. Traps; 8 energy resistance leaves this very uninspiring. Maybe adding MRR?

Way of the Elegant Crane: Like a crane, you strike with precision and elegance. You gain +1 to your Diplomacy skill, and generate 1 additional Ki on critical hits. Your training has left you more fragile than normal, however, and have a -1 penalty to Fortitude saves. At monk levels 3, 9, and 15, these bonuses and penalties increase by 1. Penalty is too steep at the highest level for the gain of +4 Ki on Critical. Reducing, eliminating, or changing the penalty would make it more lucrative for people to take? This is the best option for one specific build but making something universally viable should be the goal.

Way of the Faithful Hound: Like a hound, you are ever vigilant and at home amidst the pack. You gain +1 to your Listen skill and a +2 bonus to hit flanked opponents. At monk levels 3, 9, and 15, the bonuses increase by 1. Something needs to be done. At one time, I could see this as "useful" but with the revamp to "to hit" formula, this needs something. +2 SA damage with +1 at 3/9/15, maybe?

Way of the Patient Tortoise: Like a tortoise, you are calm at heart and worries wash over you. You gain +1 to your Concentration skill and 5 additional hit points. At monk levels 3, 9, and 15, the skill bonus increases by 1 and hit point bonus increases by 5. This is the default Animal Form most players pick. +20 HP's is the easy choice when looking at the current set of options. It's unusually the only 2 points spent in the tree (with 1 to unlock it)

Way of the Tenacious Badger: Like a badger, you are most dangerous when grievously injured. You gain +1 to your Intimidate skill, and whenever you are below 50% health, your passive Ki regeneration is increased by 1 and you deal +0.25[W] additional damage. Your patience has suffered, however, and you generate Ki slower when meditating. At monk levels 3, 9, and 15, the skill bonus increases by 1 and the damage bonus increases by +0.25[W]. The best way to improve this one is add, At monk levels 3, 9, and 15, the skill bonus increases by 1 and the damage bonus increases by +0.25[W] while the amount of health needed to trigger Tenacious Badger decreases by 10%. Health Trigger effects are generally bad, but lets face it, this is a very useful ability if you are at 80% or less, while useless if it requires 50% or less. Great for people who solo because you are going to be dropping to 80% vs. Champions



Monk moves do not have caps beyond the simple fact that as it exists now, there is absolutely no way to raise them other than pumping everything into a stat, and even then you can't get high enough DCs. Monk level would work like Caster Levels do now, just that Monk moves have a much smaller selection and no cap beyond the existence of what Monk Level increases they might add. That means that if they make Epic levels count (as they are currently proposing to do with Caster Levels), each level would count +1 DC towards moves that count Monk levels (or half or whatever the formula calls for).
I was under the impression that there was a hard cap like everything else in DDO from a discussion about Henshin during the Enhancement Pass (U19?). O'well, if not, that is a welcome relief.



"Upgrading" would simply limit choices. If all you care about is the Erasure on Void IV, just use that move and ignore the previous ones. Otherwise take the moves and enjoy your additional Force based moves. You don't have the Ki to continuously spam all of your moves - you adapt to the situation using the appropriate moves. The flexibility of Monks is part of their fun: We don't want any moves to be useless, but on the same token they don't need to be 100% perfect for 100% of situations. Flip bars around as quests demand, or cherry pick the moves you like the most.
Upgrading would be the way Turbine would code it. They would not allow you to purchase Void III without purchasing Void I or Void II.

Making Void Strike I, II, and III one activated button (three ranks) while the Tier 4 and Tier 5 become passive abilities tied to your Void Strike seems more inline with what they would code. At level 28, I have no trouble maintaining Ki, except in very rare circumstances. In those instances its usually because I am "smashing" buttons trying to get the "correct" sequence off because I'm also trying to stay alive while also contributing to DPS/Group. So its specifically user side error, not a Ki generation problem.

ThreadNecromancer
06-09-2015, 10:34 AM
On the defensive side: what about expanding the levels monks get innate dodge bonuses? And giving them a higher innate dodge cap? This would help with survivability in melee without forcing them down the same path everyone else is with PRR/MRR.

E.G.
Monk Level, Dodge Bonus, Dodge Cap
1, 2%, 25%
2, 4%, 25%
4, 6%, 25%
8, 9%, 30%
12, 12%, 35%
16, 15%, 40%
20, 18%, 45%

Edit: As a side note, I don't think Bruce Lee ever got hit very much... just saying.

Dance of the Water Strider was a ton of fun to use, regardless of strategic applications. Poisoned Darts has neither going for it. Alternatively, they could also fix the areas it didn't work in... just have the ability treat all liquids as puddles while active. They still inflict harmful/beneficial effects on characters, of course, like Abbot death-water or tainted tomb water. Or lava... acid... etc.

TeacherSyn
06-09-2015, 11:20 AM
Why would allowing Dex to Damage on handwraps be broken? As it stands unarmed Monk remains the most Multi-Attribute strapped class in the game. They can only get damage from STR; they need DEX for TWF, Reflex and AC; They need CON for HP, Fortitude saves, and Concentration; They need INT for Know the Angles to help counter the QP nerf as well as Combat Expertise; They need WIS for DC, Will saves, and AC; And while lowest priority, CHA for UMD and two of their CC moves. I fail to see the broken aspect of relieving one of the stat locks on an already underperforming DPS option. And I, for one, would much rather have build options opened up rather than just adding damage to make up for those that do stat spread. You're right, though - I don't see them recoding wraps as weapons successfully. So much is already broken with unarmed that a change would likely only break more. Coding it from the ground up is probably the only way, and I don't see them doing that. Adding the WIS options in Shintao tree would at least give one option outside of STR.

The Ninja Poison application I don't see as "overpowered" on unarmed - unarmed has a poor crit profile, so wouldn't stack as well as the expanded crit profiles of weapons, let alone Shurikens. Though if they decide that it should be blocked despite the logic of thorned/spiked/bladed gloves, then fine. Unarmed's issues are not the lack of Ninja Poison. As for Bows, I admit I forgot about Sting of the Ninja not working with bows, and think it should be changed to apply.

Dance of the Water Strider I personally would much rather have than Poisoned Darts. It had strategic function in Abbot and LOB and was plain fun to use. This should also apply in MOD. If they fixed areas such as Vale lake, it would have convenience usage as well. However the weakness of Poisoned Darts or the limited usages of DotWS is why I feel this Core needed additional passive support. My particular suggestion was Melee Power. I feel applying melee in larger chunks on the weaker cores rather than spread out can help make each core feel rewarding in unique ways. The third option of a Lesser Void Strike is what I looked to address in the Henshin tree, so would be unneeded if they followed it.

Really, why does almost 100% of Monk's survivability need to be loaded in the first 6 levels? All dodge, access to all stances, and access to all survival enhancements? I believe some of that should be spread out - if they are to address Monk survivability, they need to take out the option of granting it to everyone with a mere splash. I'm actually one that was disappointed that the Divine Grace level cap didn't get implemented. This is just but a small step on placing some unique survival options for actually at least having a Monk icon on your party bar. And while I'll defend my viewpoint, it's hardly something I'll fight tooth and nail for - curbing splash power is of little concern compared to other aspects.

I see some of your points. But Unarmed is unarmed. Correcting the crit profile is a matter of changing a number. It shouldn't require an overhaul of the whole system.

And there's still a role-play/class element here. If unarmed players hit like an armed player, why should there be a difference at all? That's like arguing that you should be able to stun while armed. Each mode has its strengths and limits for gameplay reasons and neither should take the traits of the other.

So that requires a distinct difference in how damage is created. My argument is that DEX-to-Damage for unarmed strikes eliminates the benefit of the Ninja Spy tree's weapon benefits. I'd rather boost the STR to damage ratios for Shintao and their crit profile. But I'm unsure of being in favor of a one-stat to rule them all adjustment. Monks are all over the place with needed stats, which I think is your point. If being able to go WIS-to-damage at Monk level 18 with a Shintao core would help damage and DCs, for example, it would play more fairly with needed boosts.

I'll even admit in not using Poisoned Darts much, although I use lots of Ninja Poison. I agree that core should get booted or busted. I'm in favor of a Lesser Void Strike to return that dark finisher that charms so well. Better: Level 20 also upgrades that Void Strike to the original Void IV. But that also plays unfairly to Shintaos.

I tend to agree that splashing 6 Monk levels tends to make more hybrid berserkers than Monks. I, too, would rather move the meaty benefits a little forward or require certain skill ranks or ability scores you won't easily get on a hybrid like the monkcher. I don't want to nerf the monkcher, per se. I just want to favor those who stay in only one or two classes over the twinker-for-damage types. Splash power is fine, but currently the splashes are overpowered.

DrawingGuy
06-09-2015, 12:30 PM
Would explain why I am always holding their Soul Stone in my bag or using UMD :p

Fists of Light is hardly a strong survival tool end game. Cocoon, scrolls, and potions are more than enough to keep you up. But then there are people that consider Bladeforged Centered Kensei, and they have full heals + LoHs on top of pots and scrolls with much better killing power. Though I guess the current game is being able to wade in on EE with Bard/Barb/Pally and just stand there killing everything with no active gameplay needed to survive.




Yeah, just expressing Spell Power for consistency across "spell casting" classes. Even if its a quasi-caster. I know it isn't the most popular choice but we have two other tree's to play in and place melee power.

Henshin is definitely Quasi-caster. Not sure if I consider Elemental moves quite on that level. Both scaling types make sense to me, and hope they give us something.




My comment was more about "a new save on damage." If they are going to code something or add something to Monks, make it viable throughout all levels. At max level, too many classes have built for insane DPS simply because DDO is a DPS game. Even if you get the Finisher off and the NPC fails its initial save, therefor becoming confused, the chances of it remaining confused for 2 to 6 seconds is nil, or very close, making the ability worthless to even sequence. I love the idea, I just rather see it on a set global timer to recheck its save instead of "on hit".

This is where I hope providing boosts to Monk DCs would alleviate that concern...



That only effects Fire and Force. I am talking about universal Spell Power because Fire and Force does not effect the other finishers except Fire (and maybe Earth, as it is listed as Untyped, from memory).

If Element moves scale with Melee Power, then that would not of be any concern regarding the moves/finishers as Henshin Fire/Force covers everything in its own tree and the only other spell power finisher is also fire (and positive for FoL, but that is covered by Shintao). 5 universal spellpower is a lot, and would have it providing more spellpower than many full caster trees. I personally think it is fine as is (and is pretty much what they have on live now).

That does make me curious as to if Earth is untyped or based on your weapon. Untyped would bypass everything while additional weapon damage would be subject to the bypasses of the weapon itself... something I've n



Animal Forms:

Way of the Clever Monkey: Like a monkey, no trap in the world can catch you. You gain +1 to your haggle skill and all saves against traps, as well as energy resistance 2. At monk levels 3, 9, and 15, the skill and save bonuses increase by 1 and energy resistance increases by 2. +4 saves vs. Traps; 8 energy resistance leaves this very uninspiring. Maybe adding MRR?

Way of the Elegant Crane: Like a crane, you strike with precision and elegance. You gain +1 to your Diplomacy skill, and generate 1 additional Ki on critical hits. Your training has left you more fragile than normal, however, and have a -1 penalty to Fortitude saves. At monk levels 3, 9, and 15, these bonuses and penalties increase by 1. Penalty is too steep at the highest level for the gain of +4 Ki on Critical. Reducing, eliminating, or changing the penalty would make it more lucrative for people to take? This is the best option for one specific build but making something universally viable should be the goal.

Way of the Faithful Hound: Like a hound, you are ever vigilant and at home amidst the pack. You gain +1 to your Listen skill and a +2 bonus to hit flanked opponents. At monk levels 3, 9, and 15, the bonuses increase by 1. Something needs to be done. At one time, I could see this as "useful" but with the revamp to "to hit" formula, this needs something. +2 SA damage with +1 at 3/9/15, maybe?

Way of the Patient Tortoise: Like a tortoise, you are calm at heart and worries wash over you. You gain +1 to your Concentration skill and 5 additional hit points. At monk levels 3, 9, and 15, the skill bonus increases by 1 and hit point bonus increases by 5. This is the default Animal Form most players pick. +20 HP's is the easy choice when looking at the current set of options. It's unusually the only 2 points spent in the tree (with 1 to unlock it)

Way of the Tenacious Badger: Like a badger, you are most dangerous when grievously injured. You gain +1 to your Intimidate skill, and whenever you are below 50% health, your passive Ki regeneration is increased by 1 and you deal +0.25[W] additional damage. Your patience has suffered, however, and you generate Ki slower when meditating. At monk levels 3, 9, and 15, the skill bonus increases by 1 and the damage bonus increases by +0.25[W]. The best way to improve this one is add, At monk levels 3, 9, and 15, the skill bonus increases by 1 and the damage bonus increases by +0.25[W] while the amount of health needed to trigger Tenacious Badger decreases by 10%. Health Trigger effects are generally bad, but lets face it, this is a very useful ability if you are at 80% or less, while useless if it requires 50% or less. Great for people who solo because you are going to be dropping to 80% vs. Champions



- Way of the Clever Monkey: I agree that this is the weakest of the forms, though I wouldn't underestimate the value of resistances. MRR may be a bit much unless it's only 1 MRR per step. A different option may be to change the 2 resistances to 2% absorb per. That would scale and knock 50+ damage off an MOD Abbot burst and the like.

- Way of the Elegant Crane: The penalty alone is the reason I don't touch this, though +4 Ki on crits is very nice. I think the initial -1 Fort save is more than enough penalty and would be balanced enough I would consider it on more builds.

- Way of the Faithful Hound: Very true - in the old AC system this was a very popular form. Now it's pretty much useless as who cares about Listen and +8 to hit with a qualifier is not really needed. The SA damage is pretty solid, and I think many would be tempted to snag +5 SA damage.

- Way of the Patient Tortoise: Strong and in no need of a change.

- Way of the Tenacious Badger: They change Half-Orc's from 50% to 80%, so don't see why not here. +1[W] and +1 Ki regen is pretty strong, and is a much more manageable range. I won't let myself get below half health, but I'd certainly ride 80%.

I will be updating Henshin with these changes, though will lean towards elemental absorption for now on Monkey. MRR might be a bit too strong for 2AP on top of the other bonuses.




I was under the impression that there was a hard cap like everything else in DDO from a discussion about Henshin during the Enhancement Pass (U19?). O'well, if not, that is a welcome relief.

I'm aware of no caps, though with nothing that would push even unlisted caps, hard to say. Only Henshin core SLAs scale with level damage-wise, and I would rather see minor shaves to per-Monk-level damage than a cap that would also stop DCs from rising if they consider the end-game damage too high.




Upgrading would be the way Turbine would code it. They would not allow you to purchase Void III without purchasing Void I or Void II.

Making Void Strike I, II, and III one activated button (three ranks) while the Tier 4 and Tier 5 become passive abilities tied to your Void Strike seems more inline with what they would code. At level 28, I have no trouble maintaining Ki, except in very rare circumstances. In those instances its usually because I am "smashing" buttons trying to get the "correct" sequence off because I'm also trying to stay alive while also contributing to DPS/Group. So its specifically user side error, not a Ki generation problem.

Many of the Vorpal procs are bettered in each stage in a way that makes the previous one useless (with the exception of Void 1's damage). While you can certainly call each tier a direct upgrade of the previous one, an upgrade model would mean your remove the old move and give the new one. You'd end up with only 1-2 strikes instead of a choice of up to 4. With this you have a choice of just sticking to Void 3 and Void 4 for their higher damage and strong vorpal procs, or you can incorporate the old ones to keep laying in Force damage and can keep Ki going. But whether they keep them individual like they had originally (well originally being a few updates after Monk came out), or just have an upgrade system into a single or pair of Void strike, I'll just be happy with a system that opens up Void strikes again to all Monks instead of looking at level 10 and going, whelp, "there's something I haven't been able to use for four years outside of stick builds".

DrawingGuy
06-09-2015, 01:17 PM
I see some of your points. But Unarmed is unarmed. Correcting the crit profile is a matter of changing a number. It shouldn't require an overhaul of the whole system.

And there's still a role-play/class element here. If unarmed players hit like an armed player, why should there be a difference at all? That's like arguing that you should be able to stun while armed. Each mode has its strengths and limits for gameplay reasons and neither should take the traits of the other.

So that requires a distinct difference in how damage is created. My argument is that DEX-to-Damage for unarmed strikes eliminates the benefit of the Ninja Spy tree's weapon benefits. I'd rather boost the STR to damage ratios for Shintao and their crit profile. But I'm unsure of being in favor of a one-stat to rule them all adjustment. Monks are all over the place with needed stats, which I think is your point. If being able to go WIS-to-damage at Monk level 18 with a Shintao core would help damage and DCs, for example, it would play more fairly with needed boosts.

I'll even admit in not using Poisoned Darts much, although I use lots of Ninja Poison. I agree that core should get booted or busted. I'm in favor of a Lesser Void Strike to return that dark finisher that charms so well. Better: Level 20 also upgrades that Void Strike to the original Void IV. But that also plays unfairly to Shintaos.

I tend to agree that splashing 6 Monk levels tends to make more hybrid berserkers than Monks. I, too, would rather move the meaty benefits a little forward or require certain skill ranks or ability scores you won't easily get on a hybrid like the monkcher. I don't want to nerf the monkcher, per se. I just want to favor those who stay in only one or two classes over the twinker-for-damage types. Splash power is fine, but currently the splashes are overpowered.

The overhaul is needed for more than weakness of stat-to-damage and ED qualifiers. It being on its own system creates a slew of issues and glitches. TF weapons, the Bane damage didn't work. Crafted weapons had tons of issues. Various exploits popped up with procs and wraps in Animal form. The list goes on. Folding it into the existing system means that sitting down and taking the time now can solve a million headaches down the line. It also means the addition of new EDs and universal trees would not create power creeps that Unarmed is exempt from.

As for the "roleplaying" of various stat types to damage, why would not the exact same logics you would apply to a weapon in your hand not apply to your hands themselves? There are some very well put-together pieces players have put together regarding various damage types (including Wisdom), and I feel they should apply to Unarmed as well. THAT I would fight tooth and nail for. I want unarmed to be unique base damage, attack style, attack speed, etc... not unique because it's super limited.

As for unarmed specifically in fitting within Ninja Spy and overpowering weapons, I still disagree. First I don't see it solely as Shintao = unarmed. It should be Shintao = Light Monk that specializes (not exclusive) in unarmed, and Ninja Spy = Dark Monk that specializes (not exclusive) in weapons. That's how it stands now - Shintao has **** cores where you gain nothing but the hamp/pos power which is more a Light Monk thing. That's why I think a passive should be added to each core of Shintao - and said passives would benefit unarmed as well as armed. The same should be said of Ninja Spy. Why should unarmed be locked out of most of the mechanics of the tree? The entire Dark Monk TOD tree is based on Ninja Poison, and Unarmed monks can't even use it. And as I said, weapons will always have the advantage over unarmed (and I think they always should) when it comes to crit profiles, which is what Ninja Poison works off of. When weapons have 2-3 times the crit range of unarmed (especially with the Ninja Spy capstone), I don't think 10% faster attack speed will out-do the poison stacking. Ninja Spy will, and should, benefit better from weapons, but shouldn't exclude unarmed.

Now back to the unarmed vision - I'm actually against just stacking on crit range/multipliers. That is just what is happening with all weapons, and that would be far more homogenization that just removing unarmed limitations. I want unarmed to be superior base damage via more +x[W] and attack speed rather than the current game of "let's give everyone 50% crit chance, x4+ multipliers, and a ton of fort bypass". It will take some finessing to balance DPS, but I would be satisfied with seeing a lot of medium hits with other weapon styles getting small and big hits that over time come to be relatively equivalent DPS.

DrawingGuy
06-09-2015, 01:38 PM
On the defensive side: what about expanding the levels monks get innate dodge bonuses? And giving them a higher innate dodge cap? This would help with survivability in melee without forcing them down the same path everyone else is with PRR/MRR.

E.G.
Monk Level, Dodge Bonus, Dodge Cap
1, 2%, 25%
2, 4%, 25%
4, 6%, 25%
8, 9%, 30%
12, 12%, 35%
16, 15%, 40%
20, 18%, 45%

Edit: As a side note, I don't think Bruce Lee ever got hit very much... just saying.

Dance of the Water Strider was a ton of fun to use, regardless of strategic applications. Poisoned Darts has neither going for it. Alternatively, they could also fix the areas it didn't work in... just have the ability treat all liquids as puddles while active. They still inflict harmful/beneficial effects on characters, of course, like Abbot death-water or tainted tomb water. Or lava... acid... etc.

I agree that Monks should have more dodge, which is why I wanted to fold dodge and dodge cap into Shintao along with a qualified dodge within Ninja Spy. If that was instead put into base Monk, I'd probably tone the granted dodge to 2% per 4 levels and a 5% bonus to cap at Monk 20. I want Monk dodge increased, but such increases should be taken incrementally.

FestusHood
06-09-2015, 02:24 PM
Didn't yet read all of the proposed ideas but here are a few thoughts.

I like the idea of adding monk levels for the martial sphere. That should go a long way toward making the finishing moves dc's more viable. I'm only worried that it might make the dc of stunning fist astronomical.

In most cases you will be buffing the durations of some of the finishing moves up to triple what they are now. That might be a little too much.

As far as i can tell, the triple fire finisher already scales with spellpower. I would like to see any of the attacks that use specific elements do the same. I'm in favor of monks being able to specialize this way, especially henshins. For somebody who didn't want to specialize they could still do pretty well with them by just slotting some kind of potency item. That would still result in a bigger raise than melee power for anybody that wasn't blitzing, and i'd like to see monks viable outside of dreadnaught.

Just me, but no,no,no to critical hit expansions for monks. I don't know that you have suggested this, but i see others have, and it was inevitable. I'd rather see monk damage raised in a different way. I've seen it previously suggested to increase the base damage die with monk levels, not just the +(w). I support that change. It would make monks play a little differently, for example they would be more effective against crit immune or high fort mobs.

Wisdom to hit and damage sounds good on the surface, but i'm not sure it's the right way to go. The +(w) bonuses go pretty far toward mitigating the lack of this. It allows somebody that sacrifices wisdom to get some return by doing more damage. I'm in favor of having that diversity available, rather than always being wisdom based. On the other hand, every other stat has it so maybe?

See what they do when they implement the ranged pass before any worrying about how wisdom to damage might affect monkchers. Don't know if they will ultimately separate 10k stars and manyshot, but if they do, i would like for monk archers to still be viable.

As to the finishing move addons that cure curses, poison, etc. I realize that these are just conveniences, but they are pretty nice in a group setting. Having a monk with us when we were running an at level Vision of Destruction meant that everybody didn't have to keep breaking to suck a pot every few seconds. Same with bosses that spam mass poison attacks.

Might be back with more later.

AbyssalMage
06-09-2015, 03:11 PM
Ok, have time to finally digest your suggestions.

Ninja Spy Tree
This line is good on the low end, but higher tiers are weak. Also think cores need some shuffling and work.
- Allow Ninja Poison to scale with Melee Power will fix most of the tree abilities
- Providing some core melee power will allow monks to close some of the existing power gap
This would definitely help most of the abilities. Scaling into Epics is the biggest weakness of many tree's. Turbine really should just look at every ability that uses a "#dX" model and stick a generic "increases by X% melee power" until they can actually get to that individuals class revamp.


Core Abilities:
- Basic Ninja Training (no change other than allowing unarmed with Vorpal Strikes/Brawling Glvoes/Ivy Wraps)

- Advanced Ninja Training (no change other than allowing unarmed with Vorpal Strikes/Brawling Glvoes/Ivy Wraps)
Possible if they recode Wraps, maybe?
Otherwise flagging specific weapons could cause problems if/when new developers are introduced to the team. Still I like it.


- (new) Dance of the Water Strider
-- You focus your ki and can run across liquids as if they were solid - so long as you maintain your concentration and perform no other actions, and do not stop running forward. Hazardous liquids (such as lava) will inflict their effects on you as if you were wading in them. (Cost 20 Ki)
-- 5 Melee Power

- Shadow Veil (moved up a rank to make 6 Monk splash less powerful)
No! No! No! I know Dark Monks want their "Water Strider" back, place it into Tier 5 for all I care but leave it out of the Cores. This hate about having "low hanging fruit" is ridiculous.

Now for the rational argument.
Currently, every Monk can take Shadow Veil at level 6 with an investment of 11 ap (think that is the minimum). Your suggestion forces every Monk to spend 31 ap (again, think this would be the minumum) and locks them into Ninja Spy. Henshin/Shintoa theoretically would have 41 ap tied up in their "main" tree and 31 ap tied into Ninja Spy. This feels like the Barbarian 41/30 split all over again/De Ja Vu (sp?). Monk's are based on layers of defenses so it is basically a "must have" because MRR/PRR was negated from the class because of these Layered Defenses even though game testing shows Layered Defenses fail quite normally in EE content.


- Diversion (no change)
-- 5 Melee Power

- Ninja Master
-- +4 Dexterity
-- you gain a +1 Competence bonus to the Critical Threat Range with Short Swords, Longswords, and Longbows. You gain a +2 Competence bonus to the Critical Threat Range with Kamas and Shuriken.
-- Any piercing or slashing weapon you wield gains the Vorpal ability.
-- 10 Melee Power
I would switch to Improved Vorpal for the 150 damage vs. save/immune. Not a lot of difference either way.
I really like the idea of the expanded Threat Range of weapons. Maybe this could be the new Core 4/level 12 ability with Melee Power (while leaving Shadow Veil @ Core 3/level 6)?



Tier One:
- Ninjutsu
-- Impending Doom: If the enemy affected by your Touch of Despair dies within the next 30 seconds, you gain 25 Ki and 25 temporary hit points. Enemies immune to your Touch of Despair cannot be Doomed. Temporary Hit Points scale 200% with melee power.
-- Poison Exploit: On a failed saving throw, your Touch of Despair finisher purges an enemy of Ninja Poison, dealing 1d20 poison damage per stack of Ninja Poison removed. Scales 100% with melee power.
-- Poisoned Soul (no changed as Ninja Poison scaling would boost this)
-- Wave of Despair (no change)

- Stealthy (no change)

- SA Training (no change)

- Faster Sneaking (no change)

- Acrobatic (no change)

Does SA training Scale with Melee Power if you have no Rogue Levels? Only a question, because if it doesn't would need to be added.


Tier Two:
- Ninjutsu (see Tier One)

- Subtlety: -20%/-30%/-40% threat generation with melee and ranged attacks.
Does this even work? The way NPC AI is currently coded, these may be just legacy coding that needs changed.


- SA Training (no change)

- Elemental Ki Strike (see Shintao tree for suggestions on this)

- Agility (no change)

:)



Tier Three:
- Ninjutsu (see Tier One)

- Flash Bang (no change)

- SA Training (no change)

- Sting of the Ninja: Weapon Stance: You poison your weapon with a secret mixture. While you are centered, your piercing and slashing weapons (and shuriken) inflict your foes with a stack of Ninja Poison on critical hits. (Cooldown: 3 seconds). Melee qualifier removed so all piercing/slashing weapons apply.

- Dex / Wis

Sting of the Ninja: Weapon Stance: You poison your weapon with a secret mixture. While you are centered, your piercing, slashing, and Ranged Weapons inflict your foes with a stack of Ninja Poison on critical hits. (Cooldown: 3 seconds). Melee qualifier removed so all piercing/slashing/ranged weapons apply. This does allow one Ranged "blunt" weapon to actually gain the ability but its a small price for allowing Arrows/Shuriken/Daggers/Axes to gain the ability.



Tier Four:
- Ninjutsu (see Tier One)

- Deadly Exploits: Your Poison Exploit now deals 1d30/1d40/1d50 poison damage per stack of Ninja Poison removed. Scales 100% with melee power.

- SA Training (no change)

- No Mercy (Lower to 1 AP)

- Dex / Wis

No Mercy - Add melee power, maybe +2 (?) for taking all three ranks.


Tier Five:
- Touch of Death: Dark Ki Melee Attack: You strike a living opponent down with twisted Ki, dealing 500 additional negative energy damage. (Activation Cost: 50 Ki. Cooldown: 15 seconds)
-- Either: Your opponent takes half damage on a successful Fortitude save (DC = 10 + Wisdom modifier + your monk level). Scales with Negative Spellpower.
-- Or: Scales 100% with melee power, no save

- (new) Measure the Foe: Gain +6 Melee Power, +2 Dodge, +2 Maximum Dodge, and +1 to hit for every 4/2/1 seconds you remain stealthed. This effect stacks up to five times, and lasts 10 seconds after you come out of stealth.

- Crippling Strike (no change)

- Shadow Double: You gain 2[W] and 100% melee doublestrike for 6 seconds (Activation Cost: 30 Ki. Cooldown: 30 seconds)
Touch of Death - Definitely Melee Power :)
Place your "Water Strider" here (removing Measure the Foe) - Keep the +6 melee power, +2 Dodge, +2 Dodge Cap though. Measure the Foe feels like a Rogue SA ability
Crippling Strike - Needs to scale with melee power or something. Cumulative -2 Strength is worthless in EH/EE where NPC's have Epic Ward. Place a +2 Melee power? Slow? Snare/Hamstring? No clue. Something...

DrawingGuy
06-09-2015, 03:17 PM
Fetus, I've gone in quite a bit of detail why the +x[W] does not cover a class that faces such a M.A.D. issue, nor do I think it is a valid excuse to limit a style from the flexibility all other classes enjoy. Though I'm with you on the no to additional crit profiles. As for WIS to Damage, I do agree Shuricannons and Monkchers are a concern. Monkchers actually would face a bit of a DPS loss as most build in Pally with Divine Might and couldn't really afford the 22 AP investment just for the stat over higher base damages and SA die they can get. Shuricannons would be pure gain... and maybe making it a special enhancement that only works with unarmed without a revamp to weaponize unarmed could be a solution that would help the attribute spread forced upon unarmed monks without boosting already powerful builds.

As for the current Curatives line: One - I'm suggesting to keep the Cure Curses. It has extremely limited use case in only about three quests (VOD, TOD, CitW) and I highly question the value of spending 2AP over a few PP on pots, but is of enough use in those quests to not be complete junk. The other abilities are indeed complete junk to spend all the AP for extremely minor conveniences. Two - There is no remove poison curative. :p (though there would be with my suggestion via the heal curative effect)

Side note: Stunning Fist is character level based, not Monk level. It would see no benefit from my "Monk Levels" suggestion, while all the DCs that actually need the help would.

ThreadNecromancer
06-09-2015, 04:49 PM
Ok... here's my (refined) idea for finishers. Round fractions up, all typed as Enlightenment bonuses.

The basic triple element combos:
Earth: Adds 1/3 monk level to AC for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Wind: Adds 1/3 monk level to dodge chance for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Fire: Adds 1/3 monk level to damage for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Water: Adds 1/3 monk level to saves for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only

Light monk (Shintao) finishers:
Earth: Adds monk level to PRR for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Wind: Adds monk level to displacement for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Fire: Adds monk level to healing amplification for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Water: Adds monk level to elemental resistances for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Light: Heals 1d4 hp/monk level, AoE, Ally-only (affected by Positive SP), Monk Level 16 upgrades to 1d6/monk level.

Also add something in the tree that buffs Fists of Light itself... like damage scaling with monk level against undead. Or combining the effects of Smite Tainted Creature with Fists of Light.

Dark monk (Ninja) finishers:
Earth: Adds monk level to fortification bypass % for 1 min, Self-only
Wind: Adds monk level to attack speed for 1 min, Self-only
Fire: Adds monk level to Melee Power for 1 min, Self-only
Water: Adds monk level to tactics DC for 1 min, Self-only
Dark: Adds Deception to your equipped weapons/handwraps for 1 min, Monk Level 16 upgrades to Improved Deception.

I like the idea of Henshin being the "Mystical/Caster" Monk.

Earth: Nauseated on hit, Fort save DC 10+Monk Level+Wis Mod, Petrify on Vorpal with no save for non-bosses
Wind: Knockdown on hit, Reflex save DC 10+Monk Level+Wis Mod, Paralyze(Helpless) on Vorpal with no save for non bosses
Fire: Blind on hit, Reflex save DC 10+Monk Level+Wis Mod, Stun on Vorpal with no save for non-bosses
Water: Confuse on hit, Will save DC 10+Monk Level+Wis Mod, Charm on Vorpal with no save for non-bosses
Void: AoE Dispel Magic effect, CL = Monk Level, Monk Level 16 adds a Dance effect.

Also... make Void a third option to take as a Philosophical path, and make the Henshin tree buff it the way Ninja and Shintao buff Dark/Light.

Each Monk tree should have multiselectors that buff stances chosen in a way that follows that path's philosophy also.

Coding handwraps as weapons is a big step in the right direction... kudos. Just make sure it's done right.

Honestly... if the finishers were made more useful and wraps were weapons... I'd be very happy playing monks for a long time.

Copied and edited slightly from the State of Monks thread, where we also have lots of good ideas written.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/459166-State-of-Monks

DrawingGuy
06-09-2015, 06:18 PM
Ok, have time to finally digest your suggestions.

This would definitely help most of the abilities. Scaling into Epics is the biggest weakness of many tree's. Turbine really should just look at every ability that uses a "#dX" model and stick a generic "increases by X% melee power" until they can actually get to that individuals class revamp.

Possible if they recode Wraps, maybe?
Otherwise flagging specific weapons could cause problems if/when new developers are introduced to the team. Still I like it.

Possibly, though I'm not sure that they're able to do a global change, and if they take the time to go into them individually, they might as well do it right that time.




No! No! No! I know Dark Monks want their "Water Strider" back, place it into Tier 5 for all I care but leave it out of the Cores. This hate about having "low hanging fruit" is ridiculous.

Now for the rational argument.
Currently, every Monk can take Shadow Veil at level 6 with an investment of 11 ap (think that is the minimum). Your suggestion forces every Monk to spend 31 ap (again, think this would be the minumum) and locks them into Ninja Spy. Henshin/Shintoa theoretically would have 41 ap tied up in their "main" tree and 31 ap tied into Ninja Spy. This feels like the Barbarian 41/30 split all over again/De Ja Vu (sp?). Monk's are based on layers of defenses so it is basically a "must have" because MRR/PRR was negated from the class because of these Layered Defenses even though game testing shows Layered Defenses fail quite normally in EE content.

Tier 4 core is 20 AP investment, not 30. Steep enough to not be "low hanging fruit" but not so steep as to lock builds down. The "hate" is because cross class is currently rediculous, and I've made some absurd builds that take advantage of the cheap 25% incorp as well as cheap buys from many other classes. But then with how they've boosted Bard/Barb/Pally, I guess pures now compete with some of the power grab builds. To be blunt, though, if you're struggling to pick which trees you want to invest heavily in, that is a good thing. If everyone is taking a certain split, there is a question to be called (like there is with Barb) if there is something that needs fixing.

Water Strider does not come alone and I don't think it's strong enough to be Tier 5, and there is no room for it in lower tiers. It was part of core Ninja Spy in the past, and I don't consider it wrong to be core again. Take the core for the move, take it for the 5 melee power, or take it for both. Don't see a reason to begrudge those that do like the move.




I would switch to Improved Vorpal for the 150 damage vs. save/immune. Not a lot of difference either way.
I really like the idea of the expanded Threat Range of weapons. Maybe this could be the new Core 4/level 12 ability with Melee Power (while leaving Shadow Veil @ Core 3/level 6)?

The boost to Improved Vorpal would be welcome, but also minor. Unless it is an easy switch, I'd rather they add Melee Power to boost the capstone and leave the Vorpal as is. I also think Vorpal is unique enough that it should keep to those that cap out Ninja Spy.




Does SA training Scale with Melee Power if you have no Rogue Levels? Only a question, because if it doesn't would need to be added.

All notes point this to be a global change, though I have not personally confirmed this. If for some reason a lack exists, it should be made global.




Does this even work? The way NPC AI is currently coded, these may be just legacy coding that needs changed.

Always seems to help for the few builds I decide to take it on, though Intimidate and threat building on those that are trying to tank should be the route taken - I personally see this as an expendable enhancement, but it is too flavorful and fitting for the tree that I think it should still remain on that merit.




Sting of the Ninja: Weapon Stance: You poison your weapon with a secret mixture. While you are centered, your piercing, slashing, and Ranged Weapons inflict your foes with a stack of Ninja Poison on critical hits. (Cooldown: 3 seconds). Melee qualifier removed so all piercing/slashing/ranged weapons apply. This does allow one Ranged "blunt" weapon to actually gain the ability but its a small price for allowing Arrows/Shuriken/Daggers/Axes to gain the ability.

I was already attempting to do that as most ranged weapons are piercing. I do not think blunted ammo, throwing hammers, etc should benefit from Sting of the Ninja.




No Mercy - Add melee power, maybe +2 (?) for taking all three ranks.

Lowering the cost to 1AP a rank more than justifies it's cost. If for some reason it is kept at 2AP, then Melee Power may be needed.



Touch of Death - Definitely Melee Power :)
Place your "Water Strider" here (removing Measure the Foe) - Keep the +6 melee power, +2 Dodge, +2 Dodge Cap though. Measure the Foe feels like a Rogue SA ability
Crippling Strike - Needs to scale with melee power or something. Cumulative -2 Strength is worthless in EH/EE where NPC's have Epic Ward. Place a +2 Melee power? Slow? Snare/Hamstring? No clue. Something...

Ninja Spy is meant exactly to be sneaky like a rogue. They attack from shadow - it is why they have invisibility and sneak movement speed. However as it stands, they have zero incentive to use sneak beyond mob skipping - Measure the Foe would give them a powerful reason to do so and think it would make Ninja Spy more flavorful and fun to play. As it stands, almost no one goes T5 Ninja Spy. With this and scaling TOD, they would have some very strong reasons to do so.

As for Crippling Strike, I agree it is currently weak. Though Devs have made mention they may alter how Epic Ward works with negative levels and stat damage. They acknowledge that the current system pretty makes all stat damage investments worthless - so to alter this move when it possibly may become quite good might be premature. Though a "hamstring on Vorpal" could be nice boost without being overpowering even (if) after such changes come.


-------------------



Copied and edited slightly from the State of Monks thread, where we also have lots of good ideas written.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/459166-State-of-Monks

I'm aware of the thread and have made posts within it. Those alterations, while quite nice, would change Monk from unique and various utility finishers to just stat power creeps that are a chore maintain. I'd rather see such stats rolled into the build passively and keep existing utility options.

The suggestion, however, to make Void a philosophy is quite unique and could be fun. That, though, would be a massive undertaking - we're not talking about adjusting some stats. This would require new feats, new animations, entire plannings from scratch, balancing so unless Devs note they are putting it in serious consideration, I won't waste time thinking how it could be made to work. A good take-away, though, could be to add a Void - Void - Void combo that does the suggested Dispel effect.

ThreadNecromancer
06-09-2015, 11:18 PM
I'm aware of the thread and have made posts within it. Those alterations, while quite nice, would change Monk from unique and various utility finishers to just stat power creeps that are a chore maintain. I'd rather see such stats rolled into the build passively and keep existing utility options.

The suggestion, however, to make Void a philosophy is quite unique and could be fun. That, though, would be a massive undertaking - we're not talking about adjusting some stats. This would require new feats, new animations, entire plannings from scratch, balancing so unless Devs note they are putting it in serious consideration, I won't waste time thinking how it could be made to work. A good take-away, though, could be to add a Void - Void - Void combo that does the suggested Dispel effect.

I know you have. I simply copied & pasted here for the sake of completeness. Lots of good ideas there, not all of them mine.

Yes, Void as a third Path could be a massive change. Just an idea, I figured it made sense considering there's 3 enhancement trees.

AbyssalMage
06-10-2015, 01:41 AM
Ninja Spy is meant exactly to be sneaky like a rogue. They attack from shadow - it is why they have invisibility and sneak movement speed. However as it stands, they have zero incentive to use sneak beyond mob skipping - Measure the Foe would give them a powerful reason to do so and think it would make Ninja Spy more flavorful and fun to play. As it stands, almost no one goes T5 Ninja Spy. With this and scaling TOD, they would have some very strong reasons to do so.
I'll have to contemplate on your thoughts some more. Just feels too "Rogue-ish" yet your explanation of why you wanted to add it is very justified. Time to go meditate....


As for Crippling Strike, I agree it is currently weak. Though Devs have made mention they may alter how Epic Ward works with negative levels and stat damage. They acknowledge that the current system pretty makes all stat damage investments worthless - so to alter this move when it possibly may become quite good might be premature. Though a "hamstring on Vorpal" could be nice boost without being overpowering even (if) after such changes come.
Yeah, the dreaded "Soon(tm)"...
The good news is at least it is on their radar :)

FestusHood
06-10-2015, 10:05 AM
I completely agree, but something I admittedly sidestepped other than saying they should be cheaper. How do you compare to an over-powered stun that works on nearly everything, has better DCs, and lasts longer than Stunning Fist? Frozen Fury is so brokenly overpowered I believe it should be nerfed, not emulated. However 1 min is a bit extensive - a 15s cooldown would be good, and I'll update to reflect that.

I don't have a pure bard to test with, so i'm going to go completely according to the wiki here, along with my own assumption about what tier 3 looks like. Tell me which of these are not accurate.

Stunning ice dc at third rank: 14 + bard level + charisma modifier + stunning bonuses. Cooldown: 25 seconds? (that's what the wiki says).

As you pointed out, the stunning fist formula is:

10 + wisdom modifier + character level + stunning modifiers. Cooldown 6 seconds.

So assuming a pure bard, and assuming as much commitment to charisma as a monk makes to wisdom, that's 4 dc higher.

You are saying the frozen fury ability is brokenly overpowered. I don't really see that for the following reasons. Again, correct me if i am wrong.

A warchanter isn't likely to be running in a destiny that gives him bard levels. That by itself more than makes up for the extra 4 dc, since the monk's character level will apply in whatever destiny he is using.

The frozen ice is an aoe, so let's assume it freezes 4 enemies on average per use. With a 25 second cooldown, the monk, with a 6 second cooldown, can individually stun 4 mobs in the same amount of time. I suppose you can argue which is better, but most monks are going to be more effective attacking single enemies, so i'm not sure that's an obvious win for a bard.

FestusHood
06-10-2015, 10:49 AM
Why would allowing Dex to Damage on handwraps be broken? As it stands unarmed Monk remains the most Multi-Attribute strapped class in the game. They can only get damage from STR; they need DEX for TWF, Reflex and AC; They need CON for HP, Fortitude saves, and Concentration; They need INT for Know the Angles to help counter the QP nerf as well as Combat Expertise; They need WIS for DC, Will saves, and AC; And while lowest priority, CHA for UMD and two of their CC moves. I fail to see the broken aspect of relieving one of the stat locks on an already underperforming DPS option. And I, for one, would much rather have build options opened up rather than just adding damage to make up for those that do stat spread. You're right, though - I don't see them recoding wraps as weapons successfully. So much is already broken with unarmed that a change would likely only break more. Coding it from the ground up is probably the only way, and I don't see them doing that. Adding the WIS options in Shintao tree would at least give one option outside of STR.


I can kind of see your point about dex for damage, at least that isn't the monk's main stat. I'm not sure i would include some of these stats as evidence that monks are multi attribute dependent. Dex for two weapon fighting is a pretty minimal investment assuming at least a +3 tome. It's effect on reflex saves and ac are true for everybody. Same with con and charisma; true for everybody. I wouldn't assume most wisdom based monks are even going to attempt to make the charisma based cc work.

Do monks typically run in combat expertise? That must be for the improved combat expertise twist from Sentinel?

Does know the angles work with handwraps or not? I haven't tried it, and information i find is conflicting. If it does work, that still doesn't make it a monk specific thing. Any melee without divine might would have to consider it.

if you allow wisdom to hit and damage what reason would there ever be to run anything but a wisdom based monk? That seems to work against diversity.

I'm still looking through the thread to find your specific comments about why you think raising the base die for unarmed is a bad idea.

I think you and i agree that it would be better to keep the unique flavor of monks rather than just turning them into crit fueled dps machines like the other class updates.

DrawingGuy
06-10-2015, 11:21 AM
Festus, unfortunate you have many things missing:

Stunning Fist:
- 6 second cooldown
- 6 seconds stun
- Costs 15 Ki
- DC = 10 + half character levels + Wis mod + stunning modifiers
- Only works on living creatures (same as Stunning Blow) except red/purple/stun immune mobs
- Costs a Feat

Bard has:
Frozen Fury:
- 6 second cooldown
- up to 13 seconds stun ((20 bard + 6 arcane cores)/2)
- Costs 1 SP
- 3[W] extra damage
- DC = 10 + Charisma modifier + one-half Bard Level + Stunning modifiers Half bard is one less DC from levels assuming Arcane core, though if proposed level changes take place, this would be the same. CHA has higher potential than Wisdom giving ultimately higher DC potential (racial options + harper)
- Works on everything except incorporeal or red/purple names.
- Costs 3 AP

Northwind:
- 18 second cooldown
- 6 seconds
- Vorpal trigger (so 5-10%, no cost)
- NO save
- Works on everything except incorporeal or red/purple names.
- Costs 6 AP

Spinning Ice:
- 25 second cooldown
- up to 13 seconds stun ((20 bard + 6 arcane cores)/2)
- Costs 2 SP
- 4[W] extra damage
- AOE cleave
- DC = 14 + Charisma modifier + one-half Bard Level + Stunning modifiers
- Works on everything except incorporeal or red/purple names.
- Costs 3 AP


So just Stunning Fist compared to Frozen Fury, Frozen Fury lasts longer, has more DC potential, costs less, and works on a lot more targets (constructs, undead, elementals). Sure, Monk has Tomb of Jade to cover the target gap, but that has a much much lower DC potential and is on a full minute cooldown. With Frozen Fury alone I can keep multiple targets perma-stunned and can freeze all but 5 creatures in the entire game.

However let's assume the Bard decides to forgo the 3 DC from Fatesinger, as after all, 10 second stuns are still amazing and Legendary Dreadnought and Divine Crusader are powerful. That means Monk has 4 DC advantage level wise.

Racial:
CHA: 2 Drow
WIS: 0

Racial Enhancement
CHA: 2 Drow or 1 + 3 circumstancial while using an Action Boost with human/pdk or 2 + 3 circumstantial if you deem the expensive Half-Elf buy-in is worth it. Bard has 2 trees on top of racial that can use Action boosts
WIS: 1 + 3 circumstancial while using an Action Boost with human/pdk or 2 + 3 circumstantial if you deem the expensive Half-Elf buy-in is worth it. Monk has ZERO trees with action boosts

Class Enhancements:
Bard: Up to 10 CHA available
Monk: Up to 8 WIS available

Additional Enhancements:
CHA: 2 from Harper
WIS: 0

From EDs:
CHA: LD/DC same for both Wis and CHA. Fatesinger offers up to 6 extra CHA on top of tree stat increases. Twist options have two singles from Fatesinger and standard base.
WIS: LD/DC same for both Wis and CHA. GMoF offers ZERO extra WIS on top of tree stat increases, though gives +3 tactics equating DC increase. Twist options have one single from Fatesinger, and one 2 point from Fury if raged along with standard base.


Then of course after all of this is the consideration that Bard can do CHA to damage (or attack and damage with PDK), so min-maxing into CHA not only helps DPS, but if PDK, further helps DCs. If Monk were to also go PDK, they would have to nerf DPS to keep CHA higher than STR and have to worry about STR for DPS, WIS for DCs, and CHA for DCs. Then comes KtA - Bard already likes Harper tree as CHA further boosts DPS and DCs (+33% DCs now with PDK) and only has to worry about CHA + INT. Monk is now at STR + INT + WIS + CHA. But wait, Monk needs Dex for TWF (as Stunning Fist is unarmed only, which is TWF. SWF only has dropping some points into Balance), so now they have STR + DEX + INT + WIS + CHA. Then everyone wants CON... anything a Monk does to help one takes sacrifice. Bard can go all out CHA, second INT, and then just throw whatever into DEX and CON to boost HP and saves, but they have no mechanics reliant on those stats.


TL;DR: Bard can afford to min-max DCs with no sacrifice. Monk takes massive sacrifice to min-max DCs. So not only is Bard higher max potential, it is also much more easily reached - my bard builds have always had higher Frozen Fury DCs even cross classed and in off destinies. It was only when I was in a cross-class in an off-race in an off-destiny that my DCs dipped below a Monk that worked for DCs.

This is not to say Bard DCs should be nerfed, just that Frozen moves should have decreased durations (just 6 seconds) and/or should have increased cooldowns to help balance the power they provide. As it stands, no stun in the game can remotely compare to the sheer power of the Freeze line.

DrawingGuy
06-10-2015, 11:58 AM
I can kind of see your point about dex for damage, at least that isn't the monk's main stat. I'm not sure i would include some of these stats as evidence that monks are multi attribute dependent. Dex for two weapon fighting is a pretty minimal investment assuming at least a +3 tome. It's effect on reflex saves and ac are true for everybody. Same with con and charisma; true for everybody. I wouldn't assume most wisdom based monks are even going to attempt to make the charisma based cc work.

Do monks typically run in combat expertise? That must be for the improved combat expertise twist from Sentinel?

Does know the angles work with handwraps or not? I haven't tried it, and information i find is conflicting. If it does work, that still doesn't make it a monk specific thing. Any melee without divine might would have to consider it.

if you allow wisdom to hit and damage what reason would there ever be to run anything but a wisdom based monk? That seems to work against diversity.

I'm still looking through the thread to find your specific comments about why you think raising the base die for unarmed is a bad idea.

I think you and i agree that it would be better to keep the unique flavor of monks rather than just turning them into crit fueled dps machines like the other class updates.

"Minimal Investment" is not the same as "no investment needed". You need 17 DEX for Improved TWF and Greater TWF, so unless you want to wait until Epic levels for those feats, that requires at least 13 DEX. That's 5+ of your build points gone right there, which is far from minimal. You're right, though - most Monks will dump CHA. You need STR for DPS, you need DEX for TWF (you can't dump it period), you need CON for survival reasons, INT for KtA and Combat Expertise, and WIS is your DC stat. Putting anything into CHA so you can dance and stun mobs is not worth pulling from those other stats.

Combat Expertise is for Whirlwind Attack. Also INT helps boost Know the Angles, which you would get to help boost Quivering Palm and Stunning Fist. This, of course, is more personal build choice and not a flat tax on Monk, but as WWA is such a huge thing for Unarmed builds, I actually thing it's a bad idea to forgo it. And I'm pretty sure KtA adds to damage with unarmed, but that is secondary to boosting QP. Monks that decide to say "screw it" on the DCs because they can't get them high enough in the current game of course would forgo KtA for a splash that gives them Divine Might.

How would adding options limit diversity? That's like saying "We're only going to offer you one car, because if we offer two cars, you're going to pick the better car, and that is limiting your options." Because of things like Divine Might, rage buffs, and other stronger buffs, STR is still (and should remain so) the highest stat you can get. Those min-maxing base DPS will want Strength. If Dex is opened up via Ninja Spy, unarmed Monks can go Dex. They already need it for TWF, it can get higher than WIS, and would alleviate some of their stat requirements. Especially if they're cross classing, they are likely forgoing most DC goals. WIS would help alleviate some of the stat requirements force on Monk. Yes, almost all DC Monks will take this option, but doesn't that apply to all classes? Melee based DC Wizards take INT to damage, melee based DC Bards take CHA to damage. To so limit just Monks is not "balance".

Now for adding +x[W] to Monks - the reason why you're not finding anything with me saying they should add crit profiles and not base damage is because I've been saying the exact opposite this entire time. I've said repeatedly that Unarmed should be different. It should be about stronger base damage and attack speed but weaker crit profiles. I've proposed ZERO additional crit bonuses to unarmed (other than removing the Earth Stance limit on Violence Begets Violence), and do not think crit profiles to be the way to boost unarmed. I want to add +2[W] to the Shintao capstone and + doublestrike to increase the hit rate as currently many classes out-doublestrike monks (which gives them superior hit rates). I agree with you. :)

FestusHood
06-10-2015, 01:02 PM
First off, yes, i was confusing spinning ice and frozen fury. I shouldn't do this while i'm watching television.

You mentioned earlier in this thread that you could reach 100 dc with stunning fist. You could hit 78 without stunning items or know the angles. Once you reach that level of overkill on dc's i'm not sure you have to consider what maximum possible dc's are. You mentioned getting +10 modifier from know the angles. That's 50 intelligence, right? You really hit 50 intelligence on a wisdom based monk? That's impressive. You mention adding in the pdk bonus for charisma. Are you hitting 50 charisma as well, on the same build? Not saying you aren't, i just wouldn't be able to do that myself.

I also realize you are doing that more for the quivering palm dc than for the stunning fist.

18 base + 11+3+1 items + 7 tome + 2 ship + 2 litany? + 2 yugo? +2 store pot? +2 bard song? I guess that would be 50 in an "off" stat if you are a pdk. I don't think that base is possible in both stats if you are also maxing wisdom. That's some heavy dedication though.

You're also assuming charisma based, swashbuckling, and fatesinger for a warchanter. That's pretty limiting, but ok. Personally i was thinking two handed fighting might be interesting for a warchanter given all the static damage bonuses they get in their tree. You wouldn't have to worry about strength at all though, you are right about that.

My thinking regarding the base damage dice with monks. What if at level/core 12 it upped to 1d8, and core 18 it became 1d10, and at 20 it became 1d12? Each die jump adds an average of 1 damage per (w). My level 24 monk has, i believe, 8.3(w) last time i checked. With thunderforged wraps that could go to at least 10(w). Those base die increases would lead to a whopping +30 damage per each hand in that scenario. +20 if you assume the monk already has the 1d8 that is currently available from shintao. That's not peanuts.

The idea of raising the base die like that would be that wisdom based monks would still be able to do high base damage, but that strength based monks could do even more if they were willing to lose tactics dc's. Diversity and tradeoff. As long as monk tacticals and finishing moves are fixed to work, i don't think they should be able to match top end melees for dps, and they still probably wouldn't given their lousy crit profiles. They might well be able to do higher dps against high fort mobs like undead and elementals, but that's in line with shintao.

DrawingGuy
06-10-2015, 03:19 PM
Admittedly 100 SF isn't really that realistic on a Monk - the investments are simply not worth it. Though getting it that high is certainly possible:

10 Base
14 at level 28
32 from WIS (74 WIS = 18 base WIS + 7 level ups + 2 completionist + 2 ship + 2 shop + 2 yugo + 11 item + 3 insightful item + 2 litany + 1 exceptional + 6 tome + 4 water stance + 7 ED + 4 shintao enh + 2 ninja spy enh + 1 human)
6 from LD twist
2 from tactics feat
3 from GMoF
5 from combat mastery
3 from Fighter PLs
8 from KtA (42 INT = 14 base int + 2 Completionist + 2 ship + 2 shop + 11 item + 2 insightful aug + 2 litany + 1 exceptional + 6 tome)
12 from Boots of the Innocent
------
95 Stunning Fist

To then bump to 100 can be accomplished in several ways: Alchemical Potions, cookies, INT yugo, bard Excellence, +7 tomes, putting more points into INT, etc. Of course this is going extreme losses in the name of DCs. PDK doesn't apply to unarmed, and thus can't apply to Stunning Fist. PDK, however, DOES apply to Frozen Fury.

Let's look at Bard - this will be looking at going Fatesinger - this requires no investment into Swash unless you decide that's they way you want to go. PDK can apply to Short Sword, Longsword, or Greatsword, so whether you want to swash with SS, got THF with Greatsword, or whatnot, it has little effect on your DCs. This will be assuming maining swash with Short Sword, but swash can easily be dropped in favor of Spellsinger or other splits.

Let's look at Bard's Frozen Fury:
10 base
13 at 20 bard + Fatesinger levels
36 from CHA (82 CHA = 18 base WIS + 7 level ups + 2 completionist + 2 ship + 2 shop + 2 yugo + 11 item + 3 insightful item + 2 litany + 1 exceptional + 6 tome + 2 Excellence + 4 swash + 2 warchanter + 1 harper + 1 pdk + 3 action boost + 13 ED)
12 from PDK
6 from LD twist
5 from combat mastery
3 from Fighter PLs
9 from KtA (46 INT = 15 base int + 2 Completionist + 2 ship + 2 shop + 11 item + 2 insightful aug + 2 litany + 1 exceptional + 6 tome + 1 ED + 2 Excellence)
12 from Boots of the Innocent
-----
106 Frozen Fury

Can boost it higher, though we're already at the overkill point - most would lower the CHA ED investment, and admittedly 4 of those points are really only saved to be used for Boss DPS. Dropping the 2 Tactics feat for those that want to snag PSWF + PTWF. The huge difference is all of this is not gimping my bard in the slightest. Fatesinger is better DPS than GMoF, Swash flips crit profiles to amazing, so Short Sword is still great. Of course you can slip to other EDs and still have great DCs, main Warchanter, or however you want to build. Going outside of CHA main stat and PDK means you're no longer a DC build, and thus suffer accordingly, but that's not what we're comparing here.

Once you start going "real build" where you are going into better EDs for improved DPS, Bard Frozen Fury is still higher than Monk. 80s is all you need to push for to get 95% success in most EE content, and even non-PDK bards can reach that.


We're digressing, though. The OPness of Frozen Fury and the effectiveness of Stunning Fist are not concerns I was looking to address with these pass suggestions. It's not SF that has gutter DCs, and other than a little more WIS in the capstones, nothing is being done to increase it's DCs or increase effectiveness. Cheapening the Jade line and lowering the massive cooldown of Jade Strike will help cover the target gaps of SF, and there are many more shortfalls of Monk that I hope to see addressed.

Now the on topic: Raising the base die rather than adding additional die is certainly a way that it could be approached. I do miss the classic PnP feel of rolling bigger and bigger die. They made the existing progression come out the same at 20, but pushing yourself past the base in PnP was much much stronger while in DDO it remains the same tiny gains. The thing is, though, it's also easy to manage. Pushing it to d12 will potentially double the gulf between unarmed builds per x[W] added (from d6 to d12 or higher with Empty Hand. Technically that would boost it to d20). +30 potential base damage is not a small thing. This is not to say I don't think the current DPS gap could not afford that, just that I think it can be a potentially dangerous game for balancing. I don't see them leaving the current d6/d8 system.

FestusHood
06-11-2015, 12:33 AM
Now the on topic: Raising the base die rather than adding additional die is certainly a way that it could be approached. I do miss the classic PnP feel of rolling bigger and bigger die. They made the existing progression come out the same at 20, but pushing yourself past the base in PnP was much much stronger while in DDO it remains the same tiny gains. The thing is, though, it's also easy to manage. Pushing it to d12 will potentially double the gulf between unarmed builds per x[W] added (from d6 to d12 or higher with Empty Hand. Technically that would boost it to d20). +30 potential base damage is not a small thing. This is not to say I don't think the current DPS gap could not afford that, just that I think it can be a potentially dangerous game for balancing. I don't see them leaving the current d6/d8 system.

This is why i'm not sure whether it would be better to make the base die increases part of shintao cores or just make them class features that all monks would get as they leveled. The main danger of that as i see it is that it might make it so that unarmed would always be the best option in every tree, even the ones that are meant to promote weapon use.

If they went with shintao cores, they could drop it down to d8 at 18 core and d10 at capstone. Remove the current tier 5 that gives d8. This isn't out of line with the power increases that come with the 18 and 20 cores in the recent rogue revamps. As far as multiclassing, they already give up quite a bit of damage from losing the extra +(w). Is it too much? I don't know, they would have to do their own tests to figure that out. It would depend how much they buffed the weapon lines in the other trees at the same time i guess.

KomradKillMachine
06-11-2015, 01:48 AM
I only fear of one thing if there's a monk pass:

"The Return of Teh_Troll"

DrawingGuy
06-11-2015, 11:37 AM
This is why i'm not sure whether it would be better to make the base die increases part of shintao cores or just make them class features that all monks would get as they leveled. The main danger of that as i see it is that it might make it so that unarmed would always be the best option in every tree, even the ones that are meant to promote weapon use.

If they went with shintao cores, they could drop it down to d8 at 18 core and d10 at capstone. Remove the current tier 5 that gives d8. This isn't out of line with the power increases that come with the 18 and 20 cores in the recent rogue revamps. As far as multiclassing, they already give up quite a bit of damage from losing the extra +(w). Is it too much? I don't know, they would have to do their own tests to figure that out. It would depend how much they buffed the weapon lines in the other trees at the same time i guess.

I would not want to see Empty Hand Mastery disappear - it's such a classic Shintao special feat that it would be unfortunate to lose. I would rather they take it out of core than remove it from the tree even if it is a 2AP tax that locks T5 Shintao. And as for xclass DPS loss, even taking just 6 Monk levels is only a 2d6/2d8 DPS loss (IE a 14 Pally/6 Monk would get +1[W] and +2 enh from holy sword and 3d6 light + 2d6 bane evil outsiders + 2d6 bane evil on top of Divine Might). That can be easily made up for with many splash types. I do consider that to be a problem as not only is unarmed currently underperforming, but they're not also the best at unarmed. Part of that fault is that die steps are not as even as .5[d6] or .5[d8]. This means that while it ultimately comes to be about the same at Level 20 as PnP, the damage steps are stronger leading up to that point, making a cross-class less of a DPS loss. There is also the fact that only about a quarter of your possible x[W] comes from levels.

Thus comes the question of how do you fold in DPS increases that is not overpowered and would preferably land later in the monk levels? One way is to go as you suggested, and fold back in the die step system. But with existing systems, you would now have up to 10.5d20 (4.5 weapon + 1.5 flowers + .5 reinforced + .5 past life + .75 traited fire + .25 ship + 1 deadly weapons + 1 Improved Martial Arts + .5 Improved Power Attack) or 10.5*(4d8) with Empty Hand vs the current 14d6 or 14d8 potential. That comes out to up to 10.5-210 and 42-336 potential base weapon damage, vs the current (6-)84 and (8-)112 potential base weapon damage. As you can see, there are a lot of x[W] available outside of Monk base, so it steps away rather quickly. Add in the +1[W] from Badger form and +x[W] from cleaves or Claw, and it just keeps growing. While there are ways we can hybrid the system between multipliers and die steps, Devs have been very resistance on pulling core classes away from PnP abilities (adding Melee power and PRR to Barb is the only instance of changes to feat lines I can think of unless you count Pally spell changes).

Now breaking away from the D&D die step system and sticking to just d6 > d8 > d10 > d12 does mean that the steps are manageable and the DPS could be balanced into the system, but there comes the big concern: Each +x[W] and % of doublestrike you add to the game is a compounded gap between unarmed builds. It also would either force Shintao for Unarmed as that is a pretty big DPS factor or vastly change Monk DPS compared to core 3.5 if folded into the base class. Can this exist without breaking future balancing? Should this exist? The alternative of folding in additional +x[W] and doublestrike into the existing system means that all future additions of +x[W] and double-strike through items/feats/EDs will be a relatively flat increase across the systems.

So, yes, while actual die steps is something that would be nice, a small range is so much easier to balance it probably is just best to keep it that way.




I only fear of one thing if there's a monk pass:

"The Return of Teh_Troll"

I'm pretty sure he has an RSS feed on the Lamannia forums set up for the key word "Monk". :p

DrawingGuy
12-05-2015, 04:37 AM
A bit of a Necro as there has been some active discussions on Monks, so I took the time to make some updates. Took a stab at making Meditation of War useful and added Action Boosts.

DrawingGuy
05-29-2016, 06:19 PM
Yay! Monk pass is on the list based on the Producer's letter. Bringing this back up so hopefully it can be taken into consideration once they start the process.