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View Full Version : Believe it or not, DDO has a content problem...suggestion...



Certon
06-04-2015, 03:29 PM
DDO has plenty of content for the new player, but not nearly enough for the veteran, especially for goal-oriented players burnt out on at level content and interested in efficient leveling.

Turbine had it right when they created some of the challenges. They really did. They just didn't go far enough.

I will suggest it for the third time: RANDOM DUNGEONS.

This would be a check box on an adventure, set by the party leader, which would forego the regular adventure and instead put the party in the same physical dungeon with some similarities, but instead would populate it with random traps and monsters, with 'boss' mobs scattered throughout.

The random goals within the dungeon could be varied. Such as:

Kill X (or kill multiple X)
Reach the exit
Do NOT let hostile mob(s) X die
Get item X (or multiples of X)
Bring X item(s) to Y
Smash X breakables
Escort X to location Y
...and many others.

There could be multiple conditions to satisfy completion. Upon completion, players are rewarded with (a) redeemable collectible(s), which can be used to purchase items from a HUGE list. This list of items needs to massive, and have items added/removed from the list from time to time to keep things fresh.

What other goals would you want to see attached to these random quests?

Lonnbeimnech
06-04-2015, 04:09 PM
DDO has plenty of content for the new player, but not nearly enough for the veteran, especially for goal-oriented players burnt out on at level content and interested in efficient leveling.

Turbine had it right when they created some of the challenges. They really did. They just didn't go far enough.

I will suggest it for the third time: RANDOM DUNGEONS.

This would be a check box on an adventure, set by the party leader, which would forego the regular adventure and instead put the party in the same physical dungeon with some similarities, but instead would populate it with random traps and monsters, with 'boss' mobs scattered throughout.

The random goals within the dungeon could be varied. Such as:

Kill X (or kill multiple X)
Reach the exit
Do NOT let hostile mob(s) X die
Get item X (or multiples of X)
Bring X item(s) to Y
Smash X breakables
Escort X to location Y
...and many others.

There could be multiple conditions to satisfy completion. Upon completion, players are rewarded with (a) redeemable collectible(s), which can be used to purchase items from a HUGE list. This list of items needs to massive, and have items added/removed from the list from time to time to keep things fresh.

What other goals would you want to see attached to these random quests?
I so glad I don't play whatever game it is that you design.

UurlockYgmeov
06-04-2015, 04:26 PM
I like what you are suggesting, but DDO doesn't have a content issue.

It has hundreds of quests, and more being added all the time.

What it has is a unique way of approaching the age old (and forever lasting) issue of content been there done that.

How DDO approaches this issue is by quietly suggesting you reincarnate and try a new build, class, race, approach and try the quests again.

Certon
06-04-2015, 05:10 PM
I so glad I don't play whatever game it is that you design.

I make a suggestion; you troll me. Kudos to you.

Ape_Man
06-04-2015, 06:14 PM
How DDO approaches this issue is by quietly suggesting you reincarnate and try a new build, class, race, approach and try the quests again.

And it fails miserably.

Missing_Minds
06-04-2015, 07:16 PM
I make a suggestion; you troll me. Kudos to you.

Frankly... I can't tell if I should agree with you or him.

1. There is not a content issue in DDO. There is a LOT of content.
2. There is an issue of how to retain players who have "been there, done that, have the t-shirt."
3. True randomized dungeons will never happen in this game because of the architecture. Developers and producers have flatly stated this.
4. Making a few layouts to "randomly" see what the map is while also putting in "random" goals for quest completion? Sounds perfectly feeseable with one MAJOR flaw. People will load in, see what the inital/all (depending on implementation) the goals are and decide to quit instance and try again or not. Now there could be added penalities to this to make quest respawning not be a major issue but then that alienates your player base to a degree.

I do see merit in #4, and I believe such could be implemented within the restrictions of DDO. The problem is Turbine under WB. That right there pretty much kills it.

No sarcasm when I say best of luck in your crusade.

Annex
06-04-2015, 11:23 PM
If done fairly well, I would pay for something like this. I have a good memory and get bored with most dungeons after a few visits. The "heroic reincarnation" system holds little value for me, since I have no desire to play most classes. The "epic reincarnation" system better serves my needs, but I get very bored playing the same dungeons each night to progress in lackluster destinies. A randomized dungeon would probably hold my interest longer, especially one with the correct difficulty and many variables.

The proof of concept already exists. Dungeons like Garl's Tomb and Devil Assault have multiple versions with different monsters and goals. Many dungeons have randomly placed triggers that award optional experience (i.e., Thorn and Paw) or allow progress through the dungeon (i.e., The Jungle of Khyber). A few quests have different paths with only one available per run (i.e., Dirty Laundry.) Some quests have randomly placed traps (i.e., Tomb of the Crimson Heart). Dungeon scaling and Monster Champions demonstrate that monsters can vary greatly from one instance of a dungeon to another. Does any one dungeon put all those elements together?

Alas, revisiting every single dungeon and assigning random elements would no doubt over-tax the current development team. In my opinion, such a concept could work for a new dungeon, and might work for a few large, existing dungeons, but would not work for all dungeons given current development resources.

I would like to see the development of one really large dungeon incorporating all of the design elements listed above. It might look something like this:

[s][n][n][n][n][n][n][n][f]
[n][n][n][n][n][n][n][n][n]
[s][n][n][n][n][n][n][n][f]
[n][n][n][n][n][n][n][n][n]
[s][n][n][n][n][n][n][n][f]

[s] indicates a starting node. [n] indicates a normal node. [f] indicates a finishing node. Upon creation, the game would select one starting node and one finishing node, then randomly activate some number of normal nodes allowing players to progress from start to finish. All nodes would feature fixed architecture so as not to go beyond the limits of the game engine.

Although each node would feature fixed architecture, the actual content of the node could vary greatly. For example, each node could include 4 optional trap configurations, 4 optional puzzle configurations, 4 optional trigger points, and 4 optional monster allocations. Dungeon difficulty and Monster Champions allow for further variation of difficulty.

Edit: A random layout might look something like this:

[s][_][_][x][_][_][_][x][x]
[x][x][_][x][_][x][_][x][x]
[x][x][_][_][_][x][_][x][f]
[x][x][x][_][x][x][_][_][_]
[x][x][x][_][_][x][x][_][x]

Obviously, the bigger the array, the more random the dungeon becomes. [s] indicates starting position. [f] indicates finishing position.

I would give the party leader quite a bit of flexibility when starting up this randomized dungeon:

Trap dungeon: The dungeon heavily favors traps, and features increased trap lethality. Monster allocations favor arrangements a sneaking character can pick apart or bypass. Treasure drops favor miscellaneous items, especially for stealth and dealing with traps.

Puzzle dungeon: The dungeon favors puzzles. Players will not have difficulty surviving, but they may well spend a great deal of time solving puzzles, finding secret places, and hunting down triggers. Treasure drops favor miscellaneous items, especially for finding secret things and using magical devices.

Combat dungeon: This dungeon features monsters and a lot of them. Players need not worry about lethal traps or progress stopping puzzles, but monster encounters will tax all but the toughest and most clever combatants. Encounters will feature monsters with (many) different kinds of damage reduction. Treasure drops will favor armor and weapons.

Gauntlet: This dungeon throws everything at the player, and highly favors a well balanced group with tanks, trap specialists, sneaks, and puzzle solvers. The randomized system will throw the most difficult possible combinations at players.

In my opinion, most responders to threads like this one simply cannot envision how a random dungeon could work given limitations of the game engine and therefore dismiss the idea out of hand. I believe it could work, as explained above, but would enough players want such a thing to dedicate an Update to creating it?

Lonnbeimnech
06-05-2015, 03:15 AM
I make a suggestion; you troll me. Kudos to you.

By level 28, soon to be 30, our characters have fought devil princes, demon queens, gods, demigods, entire armies, liches, dracoliches and you want them running around in a maze breaking X boxes for tokens. That's beneath them. That's novice adventurer stuff.

What you are talking about is at best another challenge pack and at worst epic harbor quests.

nibel
06-05-2015, 08:15 AM
4. Making a few layouts to "randomly" see what the map is while also putting in "random" goals for quest completion? Sounds perfectly feeseable with one MAJOR flaw. People will load in, see what the inital/all (depending on implementation) the goals are and decide to quit instance and try again or not. Now there could be added penalities to this to make quest respawning not be a major issue but then that alienates your player base to a degree.

I do see merit in #4, and I believe such could be implemented within the restrictions of DDO.

They can avoid this by making the "random dungeon" a full pay to play quest. Let's say, VIP get five free runs per day (non-stackable, like daily dice free rolls), Premium get one free run per day. Extra runs should get a Dungeon Token on the DDO Store for $0.99 (95 TP, IIRC). There is no "adventure pack" to buy and get infinite runs.

zwiebelring
06-05-2015, 09:32 AM
Random dungeon does so not correlate to 'goal-oriented veteran player' and efficient leveling.

The leveling is efficient. The grind is not. The grind has to be tweaked nd content has to be done at ascale of U14 to satisfy veterans for more than 1 week and right now all the hardcore goal-oriented gamers play the hell out of everything on Lamannia then grind for 1-2 weeks, then leave new content to die. The dev.s cannot keep up with that behavior.

Bottom line: if you want a change, change your gaming habits or change the game.

JOTMON
06-05-2015, 09:47 AM
DDO has plenty of content for the new player, but not nearly enough for the veteran, especially for goal-oriented players burnt out on at level content and interested in efficient leveling.

Turbine had it right when they created some of the challenges. They really did. They just didn't go far enough.

I will suggest it for the third time: RANDOM DUNGEONS.

This would be a check box on an adventure, set by the party leader, which would forego the regular adventure and instead put the party in the same physical dungeon with some similarities, but instead would populate it with random traps and monsters, with 'boss' mobs scattered throughout.

The random goals within the dungeon could be varied. Such as:

Kill X (or kill multiple X)
Reach the exit
Do NOT let hostile mob(s) X die
Get item X (or multiples of X)
Bring X item(s) to Y
Smash X breakables
Escort X to location Y
...and many others.


This format doesn't interest me much.
and I would be surprised if anyone enjoys escort missions.. they suck as far as I am concerned.




There could be multiple conditions to satisfy completion. Upon completion, players are rewarded with (a) redeemable collectible(s), which can be used to purchase items from a HUGE list. This list of items needs to massive, and have items added/removed from the list from time to time to keep things fresh.

What other goals would you want to see attached to these random quests?


The huge list would help all aspects of this game.
The lack of list of choices in all the crafting modules has hurt every one of them.

The multitude of pack specific crafting that has a limited range of items and usefulness.
Cannith crafting.. great for low life customization, next to useless at higher levels.
Augments.. there just are not enough of them.. level restrictions on low level augments makes most of them worthless. only find these become useful when tweaking at epic levels.
The only one that has held its own is Greensteel and that is because it is a huge list and offers functional usability versatility to every possible class and holds its value across a large level range.
We hold hope that Epic greensteel will mirror the success of heroic greensteel and not the dsappointment that LOB gave.

as to the quests..
We have a lot of levelling quests but little in the "endgame" range to entice enough players to stay in this range.
In some other threads this has been brought up...

A while back I had suggested..
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ic-level-Raids

A Mythic level raid (level 28+ to get in...preferably min level 30 when it is established) that required flagging and completing Eberron Raids at Mythic difficulty.
So not only do you need to flag for 10 existing raids on Mythic, you must also complete all of these raids on Mythic difficulty to become flagged for a Final Mythic Raid.

These would not be XP content..since the expectation is that players would be capped and running in their best destiny... not piking XP...
Lots of Mythic level content to flag.. so not for TR junkies...

I was thinking augment stones from the flagging raids that would allow you to convert Epic crafted items from the raids to be into augments.
Perhaps an alter to create armor/weapons that consumes Epic items from the flagging raids.
Stuff like eSOS could be converted into a augment that gave a +1 /x crit augment... convert that old epic torc into an augment..
This gear would have more augments..customizable slots that can be regular augments and consumed augments created by the destruction of worthy Epic/Mythic crafted gear...Lesser items are rejected..
Add a variety of high level augments like consuming all the necro gear....to make all the effects available out of there..

This would add depth to the grinding in the game.. since grinding and crafting items from the flagging raids adds to the items crafted out of the finishing raid.
Since they are consumed.. grinding multiples may be required... it adds layers to the game and adds value to pre-existing gear.
and because it is a pita to flag all of these, once you have your worthy toon in this range there is a greater discouragement to reset and go back to TR'ing.
This would likely result in people having their "endgame toons" parked at endgame for "raid nights" and have alts to run other content and TR's when not raiding..

ThreadNecromancer
06-10-2015, 12:20 PM
"It only took us six hours to complete Shadow Crypt last night."

I'll pass on randomization.

voodoogroves
06-10-2015, 12:24 PM
Love champions. Love the fact if I'm brain-dead going through things, they will make me pay. Love orange ones even better. Wouldn't mind seeing more orange names become champs on elite.

They could also (on elite, say) spawn random spell wards based on the length of the dungeon. I wouldn't be opposed.

Thrudh
06-10-2015, 12:37 PM
DDO has plenty of content for the new player, but not nearly enough for the veteran, especially for goal-oriented players burnt out on at level content and interested in efficient leveling.

Your random dungeon plan does not mesh with "efficient leveling"

I think random dungeons would be fun, but the powergaming crowd you are talking about would just run Spies again instead.

And then complain about it.

bsquishwizzy
06-11-2015, 12:04 PM
Your random dungeon plan does not mesh with "efficient leveling"

I think random dungeons would be fun, but the powergaming crowd you are talking about would just run Spies again instead.

And then complain about it.

LOL!

So true...

bsquishwizzy
06-11-2015, 12:06 PM
You want to see a random dungeon? Try running ToEE.

Randomized traps.

Randomized mobs.

Random bosses.

Almost-random optionals.

Add some of the Kings Forest random encounters, and you're basically set. You will probably not see random terrain, as I think that is fixed in the quest, but all other things? We are about 80% there already.