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Xathris
05-15-2015, 12:56 PM
I want to make a paladin. Should I do SWF, or THF (I don't want to do TWF). Also what are the differences between
SWF, TWF, and THF? I've seen a lot of lamentations about SWF in older posts, and I was wondering what that's all about.
Thanks!

JOTMON
05-15-2015, 01:18 PM
I want to make a paladin. Should I do SWF, or THF (I don't want to do TWF). Also what are the differences between
SWF, TWF, and THF? I've seen a lot of lamentations about SWF in older posts, and I was wondering what that's all about.
Thanks!

The correct answer.. is yes..

any of the weapon choices is effective with Paladin... pick your flavour

THF, TWF SWF S&B, Ranged, .. take your pick...

https://www.ddo.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/26-Paladin

unbongwah
05-15-2015, 03:07 PM
Should I do SWF, or THF (I don't want to do TWF). Also what are the differences between SWF, TWF, and THF?
In principle, THF is better for AoE / Cleave-based DPS (longer reach + higher base dmg + 1.5x dmg mod + glancing blows); while TWF is better for single-target DPS (lots of smaller hits add up over time, especially w/proc-on-hit or on-crit effects). SWF should split the difference between the two: better single-target DPS than THF (due to higher atk speed) but not as good as TWF; better AoE dmg than TWF (due to +1.5x dmg mod) but not as much as THF.

In practice, it's more complicated than that and depends on a lot of variables, like PrEs, EDs, gear, etc. But consider that a reasonable rule-of-thumb. Paladin is probably the most "weapon-agnostic" melee class (followed by barb); meaning that its DPS bonuses aren't tied to specific combat styles the way Swashbucklers (SWF) and Tempests (TWF) are, nor specific weapons like Assassins (daggers / kukris) and Acrobats (staves). Zeal (+10% doublestrike) favors THF/SWF/S&B over TWF; but the proc-on-hit/-crit effects in KotC tend to favor TWF, so it kinda balances out.

All of which is roundabout way of saying: chose your combat style based on which circumstances you want "best" DPS (i.e., trash-clearing or boss fights); or choose based on which you think is more fun. You are here to have fun, right? ;)

I will also say I think THF DPS is more front-loaded than SWF or TWF, particularly if you've got a good keen 2H weapon early on (ideally Carnifex (http://ddowiki.com/page/Carnifex)). Once you swing that bad boy around for a while, switching to a low-lvl SWF or TWF toon can feel much weaker. At higher levels, though, SWF & TWF builds come into their own and the differences between combat styles become more pronounced.

I've seen a lot of lamentations about SWF in older posts, and I was wondering what that's all about.
Depends how far back you go and what they were complaining about. When SWF was first rolled out, GSWF added 2x your STR (or other stat) bonus to dmg, while 2H weapons only got 1.5x dmg bonus; on top of GSWF's higher atk speed, many people thought that made SWF unfairly OP vs THF - SWF had better single-target and AoE DPS than THF. GSWF has since been reduced to +1.5x dmg mod, same as 2H weapons natively get.

Xathris
05-15-2015, 04:09 PM
Thanks for all the info unbongwah! I still play the twf fighter/ranger you rolled up for me. He's 19th lvl. I want that axe! However, I also want the trinket that let's you get extra exp. I guess I'll have to run the quest chain at least twice?

Uska
05-15-2015, 04:27 PM
I like S&B

lyrecono
05-15-2015, 04:27 PM
yes, but remember that the trinket is a guaranteed drop in the endlist, the axe is not, so pick it up first if you have the chance

Uska
05-15-2015, 04:29 PM
Thanks for all the info unbongwah! I still play the twf fighter/ranger you rolled up for me. He's 19th lvl. I want that axe! However, I also want the trinket that let's you get extra exp. I guess I'll have to run the quest chain at least twice?

Here's a clue if the axe pops up the first time take it since the trinket pops up everytime it took me almost a 100 tries to get the axe on my main

Xathris
05-15-2015, 04:33 PM
Here's a clue if the axe pops up the first time take it since the trinket pops up everytime it took me almost a 100 tries to get the axe on my main

Thanks for the tip, guys! Is there a list somewhere in some thread regarding good gear for each class at every level? I want to collect the good stuff that is Bound to Account, not all the Bound to Account stuff. I also don't mind getting good Bound to Character stuff, of course!

icekinslayer
05-15-2015, 07:24 PM
Thanks for the tip, guys! Is there a list somewhere in some thread regarding good gear for each class at every level? I want to collect the good stuff that is Bound to Account, not all the Bound to Account stuff. I also don't mind getting good Bound to Character stuff, of course!

I've gotten used to using ddowiki.com

Go to the list of what ever piece of gear you're looking for. IE if you want a good belt, search the belts section. etc.

AbyssalMage
05-16-2015, 01:31 AM
Thanks for the tip, guys! Is there a list somewhere in some thread regarding good gear for each class at every level? I want to collect the good stuff that is Bound to Account, not all the Bound to Account stuff. I also don't mind getting good Bound to Character stuff, of course!
Someone once tried to compile one but the game just has too many variables until recently. The person in charge of item development disregarded past precedence, just wanted to cause grief, or something else, but there are now a few distinct Best in Slot items [BiS] (not including Green Steel) while leveling in Heroic. Thankfully, Heroic goes by so fast, and is more about knowledge than gear anyways, that BiS can basically be ignored unless "you just have to have the best." If you "Must have" BiS, GS HP item, ToEE weapon (fully upgraded), Lit II, Min II, End reward Wheloon, End reward Storm Horns, Pale Green Ioun Stone (+40 Vitality/5% xp Trinket, think this is the name), and Con. Opp. GS + Torc if you are a caster.

But like I have already mentioned, Heroic isn't worth the hassle but this makes a great TR set so you can instead place lots of Epic Items in your TR stash for levels 20+.

Bluegirl_Two
05-16-2015, 01:32 PM
there are now a few distinct Best in Slot items

Largely irrelevant since even while being true there is nothing in the game really demanding BiS items in order to be competitive. Reality is that if a character has level appropriate gear that supports the player's build then there is no real issue running quests at any level. The "best in slot" point of view really drives only a very few ultra-elitist players. I've never seen it serve as any sort of discriminator in any group. A competent player running a well designed character with reasonable gear that supports the build will have no issues in the game whatsoever.

BiS is mostly an urban legend, subject to debate, and generally a figment of certain people's imagination.

As to combat styles on paladins, I have tried all of them. I personally like Shield Mastery and the sword and board approach used with bastard swords or dwarven axes. My preferred build uses S&B with Nightmare (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Nightmare,_the_Fallen_Moon). I really have to try hard to muck things up as the character is pretty much unkillable if I pay attention.

AbyssalMage
05-16-2015, 01:54 PM
Largely irrelevant since even while being true there is nothing in the game really demanding BiS items in order to be competitive. Reality is that if a character has level appropriate gear that supports the player's build then there is no real issue running quests at any level. The "best in slot" point of view really drives only a very few ultra-elitist players. I've never seen it serve as any sort of discriminator in any group. A competent player running a well designed character with reasonable gear that supports the build will have no issues in the game whatsoever.
This is why I stated "Heroic goes by so fast, and is more about knowledge than gear anyways, that BiS can basically be ignored unless 'you just have to have the best'."

So unless he has to have the best...


BiS is mostly an urban legend, subject to debate, and generally a figment of certain people's imagination.
It definitely is not urban legend, debatable, or a figment of any imagination. Simply put, their is BiS for end game builds (dependent on the build). There are a few posters who show in videos how just slight changes in a build can have noticeable differences in play.

Doesn't make one build superior to another unless you are looking for "BiS." I will assume that you and I both find (great) enjoyment out of DDO and neither of us focus on BiS.


As to combat styles on paladins, I have tried all of them. I personally like Shield Mastery and the sword and board approach used with bastard swords or dwarven axes. My preferred build uses S&B with Nightmare (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Nightmare,_the_Fallen_Moon). I really have to try hard to muck things up as the character is pretty much unkillable if I pay attention.
2WF :p

psykopeta
05-16-2015, 02:20 PM
why choosing when u can play all?

level from 1 to 28 as thf, etr
then go swf, grab a deathnip and lol a bit, etr
then go s&b, pick any shield (i was using a +8 seeker of 8 stun buckler from my bard lives, ml 14 or so til i could get stunning in another place, as mornh)

this way you should get 3 epl quit easily, and make ur own decision, cause maths won't tell what's funny for you, ever

and ddo is about fun!! ofc there're differences i ndamage and so, but you won't notice it, specially if running a pure human pally in DC, cause it can't die, no matter the combat style

Bluegirl_Two
05-16-2015, 03:32 PM
It definitely is not urban legend, debatable, or a figment of any imagination. Simply put, their is BiS for end game builds (dependent on the build). There are a few posters who show in videos how just slight changes in a build can have noticeable differences in play.

One of two things needs to occur for it to be more than urban legend, debatable, or a figment of the imagination:

1. The player must be soloing epic elite content where the slightest difference might mean the inability to complete the quest, or
2. The quest must be so difficult that even with a full group of skilled players it cannot be completed without absolutely the best possible gear.

Since we know that there is nothing in the second category -- every quest in the game is beatable by a prepared group -- the only way it could possibly matter is for those few people who set the bar at soloing epic elite.

Because that bar applies to such a small number of players it makes discussing best in slot totally irrelevant.

DDO had its time when elitists ruled the forums, the guilds, the servers and the LFM panel. It took a long time to break that cycle of people thinking that players needed the recognized best builds geared with the recognized best gear. And it is wrong to suggest that such might become the case again by promulgating this false notion that there is a best in slot gear set that people should aspire to.

The game is completely manageable with gear several layers below the best in slot setup. Which is why BiS is mostly an urban legend -- because it is absolutely irrelevant for all but the smallest population of players -- as it should be.

Jalgratas
05-17-2015, 08:17 AM
Try the weapon style you like. However I personally think THF is my personal go to if im not sure how to build a character. I like the flavour of smashing things with bigger hits.

To the gear discussion above i also agree that BiS is pointless to make. However I would recommend you take a look in obtaining 2 items. Level 3 bracers of wind which give blurry and the cloak from tempest spine which gives ghostly. They are both rather easy to farm and you just need to kill one of the earlier bosses in Tempest Spine. Ive used those 2 items plenty past lives to consider very very handy.

Kompera_Oberon
05-17-2015, 09:19 AM
[snippage] However I would recommend you take a look in obtaining 2 items. Level 3 bracers of wind which give blurry and the cloak from tempest spine which gives ghostly. They are both rather easy to farm and you just need to kill one of the earlier bosses in Tempest Spine. Ive used those 2 items plenty past lives to consider very very handy.
There is also the L8 (and all higher versions) Cloak of Night which gives Dusk (10% chance to be missed on any hit). But those are, TMK, only available from Mabar or the Mimic Festival, so if your Paladin is a first life you won't have access until (and unless) those events roll back around. But well worth picking up when they do, imo. I'm currently wearing the L20 version (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Cloak_of_Night_%28Level_20%29) which offers several nice upgrades from the L8 version.

Xathris
05-18-2015, 02:38 PM
There is also the L8 (and all higher versions) Cloak of Night which gives Dusk (10% chance to be missed on any hit). But those are, TMK, only available from Mabar or the Mimic Festival, so if your Paladin is a first life you won't have access until (and unless) those events roll back around. But well worth picking up when they do, imo. I'm currently wearing the L20 version (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Cloak_of_Night_%28Level_20%29) which offers several nice upgrades from the L8 version.

Thanks for all this info. I enjoy finding magic items that are all around good, as well as character specific items. I am thinking of starting THF and maybe lesser reincarnate to something else later on.

Jsbeer
05-18-2015, 05:27 PM
Try the weapon style you like. However I personally think THF is my personal go to if im not sure how to build a character. I like the flavour of smashing things with bigger hits.

To the gear discussion above i also agree that BiS is pointless to make. However I would recommend you take a look in obtaining 2 items. Level 3 bracers of wind which give blurry and the cloak from tempest spine which gives ghostly. They are both rather easy to farm and you just need to kill one of the earlier bosses in Tempest Spine. Ive used those 2 items plenty past lives to consider very very handy.

Is there any reason that the golden guile isn't mentioned too as it is trivial to farm:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Golden_Guile