View Full Version : Competitive Dungeons/Raids - Response to "Competitive League" Thread

04-28-2015, 02:15 PM
Mention PVP in the DDO forums and prepare to get slaughtered by nay-sayer's in hordes. I've already made this mistake a few times. It is clear that there is a core population of DDO that will never even begin to entertain the idea of any sort of PvP in DDO. You will get all the reasons from " A waist of time and resources"..."it's not a balanced system so it will never work"...to flat out "PvP is stupid". I personally disagree with all of the above, but that's not what this thread is about. This is a response to the thread for a "competitive league" and an attempt to find a middle ground that would appeal to those with the interest in player vs. player while still keeping all the core fundamentals of the game intact. Although I am not entirely against the idea of a competitive league, and certainly agree with the fact that there needs to be some kind of player competition available end-game, a league by itself I feel doesn't truly address the need for player interaction and competition. I also don't believe you can have an effective competitive league without a "stadium" so to speak in which the competitions are to be held. Here I have attempted a basic outline of a dungeon raid system that I believe would allow for some incredibly fun and challenging gameplay and would be competitive by design. I am prepared to get slaughtered on this idea as well, but regardless, I'm putting it out there.

Se here it is:

Competitive Dungeons/Raids:

These would be special dungeons in which players compete to complete various objectives with time limits, and scores for reaching certain benchmarks and completing objectives. This would involve fending off a very difficult PVE environment with all the most difficult aspects of dungeon questing in DDO - Deadly traps with painfully high DC's, Respawning mobs, red label gaurdians of objectives, gates and mechanisms that require multiple players to work simultaneously while fending off trash, etc.

Ideally, there could be two versions of this:

1) A raid party enters solo and attempts to complete the raid with the best score and time possible. Entirely PVE.

2) (My personal favorite) Two raid parties enter a dungeon at opposite ends and attempt to take a PVE objective somewhere in the middle. This would have to be well thought out, but if done right would involve certain areas of the dungeon where the two parties MIGHT cross paths, in which case they MAY decide to engage each other in combat while at the same time being assaulted by the PVE environment. The beauty of this type of system would be that the main objective is based upon score, but controlled by a variant of time. Therefore, if a party chooses to spend time fighting another party they may increase their score but will suffer from using time that could instead be spent racing through objectives.

Here are the various control elements (all of which could be debated) to keep the gameplay objective based:

Combat areas (PvP areas) of the dungeon should be always controlled by one-way doors. Only the friendly party can pass through both ways on a friendly dungeon side. No enemy party can pass through a door that leads to the enemy side.

Shrines would be respawn points available once a dungeon objective has been completed to unlock it. Shrines are always team specific and never permit access from an enemy team. Shrines near combat (pvp) rooms should be placed in safe zones somewhere behind the one-way doors into combat zones.

Multiple Paths to the main objective: In my opinion, there should always be at least one significantly longer and more difficult PVE path that leads to the main objective, as well as a shorter, less PVE demanding path that involves combat (PvP) rooms along the way. This provides choices as to the strategies deployed by various parties. One party may decide to go head on through the shortest route and engage the other party along the way. Another party may choose to try to trudge through the longer PVE route and ignore combat with the other party entirely. Or, some may choose to split up and try a combination of both to see which proves the most effective.

Maps will not show the location of the opposing party.

Objectives would show up mirrored as Red and Blue visible by both parties. Objectives will check off as they are completed and be visible to both parties. This will be the way to gauge who is progressing and give some idea as to where in the dungeon the opposing party is operating.

Most likely these dungeons should be completed in two rounds. This way the parties would switch sides. This would compensate for any varients that exist in difficulty, or advantages provided by one side or the other.

There should always be a maximum time limit for both parties to complete the main objective. This will put constant pressure on both parties not to "mess around" and stay focused on the tasks required for completion, score etc.

All main objectives of the dungeons should have elements that make it essentially impossible for a single player to complete. (Simultaneous trigger pulls, pressure plates, etc. ) Although there should be some optionals that allow a solo player of the right skill to complete for bonus points, xp ,renown, etc. ( A long hallway of traps that is relatively abandoned so a rogue could solo off to disable and sneak his way past a few small mobs to complete the bonus objective, etc.)

I believe these competitive dungeons could be offered in all the standard difficulty options, but should always have a base dungeon rating of "extremely difficult".

Competitive Dungeons could be scaled to be offered in CR 10, CR 20 & CR 30 to effectively allow access throughout the leveling process and at end game.

Rewards: I think the beauty of this competitive system is that it could award significant xp as well. This is because the xp awarded would be solely based on the PVE environment and dungeon objectives completed scaled to level. Killing of enemy players rewards no xp, although it could and most likely should award special currency which could be turned in for special items whether cosmetic or functional TBD. Guild Renown should also be frequently awarded for completion of objectives, killing of enemies both PVE and PVP and chest drops. This would encourage guilds to run these dungeons as the best way to gain renown even if their character is capped and receiving no xp. There could be special chests accessed through certain optionals that take time, but increase score and ultimately drop chest loot. Number of end chests could be determined by combination of time and score with special currency drops for special vendors. There should be some rewards for the loosing team as well to keep players from dropping when facing a losing match. Xp should be awarded immediately upon completion of each objective for the same reason. An xp reward exclusive to the winning team could be immediately granted when completing the main objective and effectively ending the round/quest/competition.

This is the best way I have been able to come up with a competitive and fun system that preserves all the fundamental elements that make ddo great while creating an environment that allows players to compete as a TEAM and with each other at the same time. This competitive system would make well rounded parties a must and respect the roles of different character classes which would all be necessary to effectively complete these dungeons. A high level rogue or artificer would be a must to stand a chance of getting through traps, healers would be essential to keep parties alive as well as raise where necessary to save valuable time from respawn set-backs. DC casters to manage hordes of trash, etc. Rangers to manage mobs in high places raining down arrows and spells over objectives.

If you simply cannot bring yourself to entertain the idea of any pvp interaction whatsoever, then at least consider the first option in which all the criteria remains the same except only involves one raid party racing to complete the dungeon and objectives for score and time. I personally would love to see both options available and would personally play both options since they would provide completely different gameplay experiences.

These competitive dungeons could tie directly into any competitive league developed and would allow for a controlled environment in which to test all players skills when determining rankings, leaderboards, etc.

04-28-2015, 03:07 PM
Eh, whatever. But anything that is PVP can provide absolutely NO rewards that increase a character's power or effectiveness, and this include XP.

You want your character to get better? Do it like the rest of us.

04-28-2015, 03:15 PM
why change a game when there are so many games for every kind of player

DDO = PvE.


04-28-2015, 03:15 PM
My suggestion for XP was for completion of objectives contained within the dungeon that are completely PVE based: (Killing red labels, numbers of PVE mobs like in temple of elemental evil, etc) Absolutely no xp being rewarded for the killing of other players. If this is still not acceptable then XP could be scrapped as a reward all together and the rest of the functions would still be fun and rewarding in other ways.

04-28-2015, 03:19 PM
why change a game when there are so many games for every kind of player

DDO = PvE.


This statement is one huge contradiction of itself.

Why does anyone ever change anything?

04-28-2015, 03:41 PM
What about a challenge style dungeon/raid? Challenges already use a scoring system, maybe just add in a leaderboard mechanic with winners getting Cosmetic Loot (unbound), a few Daily Dice Roll tokens, collectables, ingredients (only unbound items), Astral Shards, etc.

Actually ToEE would have been a great use of this.

04-28-2015, 04:13 PM
@GlJosh That could be a good start. As you point out I think a lot of the mechanics to make this type of thing happen are available already in the game. They just need to be brought together in a format that allows players to compete, with or without a direct conflict PvP element. If nothing else, a competitive raid scoring and timing system would be the way to kick it off. Completely optional for those who want to participate. I have a feeling that many would.

04-28-2015, 05:03 PM
Possible scoring system for a 30 min Competitive Dungeon:

Points Awarded for the following actions: (Actual points TBD for best balance)

Killing an enemy: 50 pts
Red Label: 500 pts

Objective: 300 pts
Optional Objective: 500 pts
Main Objective: 1500 pts

Trap Disable/Open Lock: 75 pts
Standard Ransack, Conquest, etc. % increases+ TOTAL PTS


Timer: 1800 Seconds total- Tiered

1-300 Seconds x1
301-600 Seconds x2
601-900 Seconds x3
901-1200 Seconds x4
1201-1500 Seconds x5
1501-1800 Seconds x6

Maximum deficit of -10,794 pts at 1799 Seconds.
1800 Seconds = Failure

04-28-2015, 05:28 PM
vystal, have you seen mikkado's challenge thread? He or she started on their own and it has attracted lots of interest.

04-28-2015, 05:39 PM
No I haven't. Thanks for the tip I'll check it out.

04-29-2015, 09:33 AM
Sounds a lot like the rift and greater rift system they added to diablo 3. I think your idea is good. Maybe turbine could even do it in seasons. So the leader boards could be wiped every once in awhile.

04-29-2015, 10:49 AM
@hostilus - Glad you're into the concept! I like the idea of having seasons as well. In fact, making it seasonal could provide an opportunity to make small updates to the dungeon to keep people on their toes so no one can simply memorize the best paths through long term.

04-29-2015, 01:10 PM
I like the idea of competitions where you aren't directly *fighting* other PC's, but trying to complete various objective or even just trying to be the last one left alive in a big room that constantly spawns mobs. Maybe a timed scavenger hunt in a big outdoor area would be cool. They've already got areas that randomly drop events or azure motes or similar, so it wouldn't be an entirely new and separate thing.

Or something like GSF (Galactic Star Fighter) in SWTOR where you fight using a vehicle or similar would be cool. Get some use out of those guild airships (or build your own, smaller, personal airship for the purpose).

I don't have a problem with rewards for pvp--I mean, you're playing the game, you should get some kind of reward just for spending your time and energy doing something. And it's not like questing where you can learn a faster way--pvp sessions tend to take a designated amount of time. I just think there should be participation rewards for everyone, not just the people who "win". Who gives a **** HOW you level your character, whether you do quests or wilderness explorer or pvp or WHAT. You're DOING SOMETHING.

04-29-2015, 04:24 PM
@psychoblonde I agree that xp and rewards are totally reasonable in this concept since it would actually be much harder by design then your average quest and even raid that most experienced players can zerg through in minutes in order to power level.

05-07-2015, 01:38 PM
This statement is one huge contradiction of itself.

Why does anyone ever change anything?

because it has unsatisfied needs. Not the case, there are games for everyone in this world