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Xathris
04-26-2015, 04:45 PM
I have a 12th level sorcerer, Air and Fire Savant, with lots of SLAs and points spent in crit enablers (for full build, read unbongwah's post in this thread: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/445930-Returning-player?p=5387853&viewfull=1#post5387853. She is human. I was just wondering what a good spell set would like like, and maybe good attack strategies.
Thanks!

Thalone
04-26-2015, 05:13 PM
There's a page on the wiki about this topic (http://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_usefulness#Sorcerer.2FWizard).

Bluegirl_Two
04-26-2015, 06:08 PM
I'm not too comfortable with the way the wiki handles spell choices. I am especially not happy about the "important" and "situational" breakdown.

It is very important to take a close look at the enhancements that are available to you and at the choices you make. Looking at those things should guide you towards certain spell choices.

Personally, I like Eldritch Knight for access to Improved Mage Armor and Improved Shield. IMO these are vastly better than the L1 spells and worth the AP investment into the EK enhancement tree. Looking at the spell choices with that sort of thought process should help inform your decision on what spells to take at each character level.

The other thing to think about is how will the spell serve my needs as the character levels? I would never select Sleep, as an example, because I cannot see it providing anything useful to my character in the long run. So, I would take any advice (like the wiki) telling me that Sleep is an important spell as evidence that the person giving advice doesn't have a clue.

This happens because everyone has a different view of what is useful and what is not. The person who authored the wiki might have a great character and Sleep might figure well with how that person plays. To me, however, it is about as bad a suggestion as there is.

Which brings me back around to this important point -- your choices for spells should compliment how you see the character being used. What that means, ultimately, is that the only one who can figure out the best spell choices for your character is you.

Now, you are an Air and Fire Savant. Your focus is electric and fire spells. The most powerful spells in your inventory are Wall of Fire and Eladar's Electric Surge. Wall of Fire is an area of effect spell that works relatively well in most content. Eladar's Electric Surge is a damage over time spell that can be stacked on a target muliple times.

The problem -- and the reason Air and Fire are not always popular choices -- is that fire and electric spells are resisted by a lot of mobs. For me this is overcome by choosing to focus on a spell type that most mobs have no defenses against. That would be force spells. So, me personally, I tend to take the Magic Missile spells whenever they are available because that gives me an answer to almost every problem.

Of course, an equally good alternative is to go into necromancy and to take Finger of Death and Wail of the Banshee. Necro spells are usually the province of wizard Pale Master builds. But, it is a good option for sorcerers as well depending on how the character was originally envisioned.

Assuming you focus on your SLA options for most of your damage and minimize additional offensive spells your other choice is to take things that provide you with some sort of protections. Again, balance that against what you are getting out of your enhancement trees.

Ultimately, though, you have to choose based on how you see the character. For example, a Solid Fog coupled with a Wall of Fire into which you spam SLA Fireballs and Electric Loops might be a strong combination for you. Couple that with a Web or two and maybe you've got something.

Or maybe not. If that isn't you or if you are usually in a group that doesn't care and just smashes forward then maybe that isn't the thing to do.

So, evaluate why you chose those enhancement paths and select the spells that best support your vision for your build.

Enoach
04-26-2015, 06:46 PM
I will give Bluegirl_two credit for the point they make that the spell selection should be both beneficial to your play style as well as useful to your build.

As a sorcerer your memorized spell list is limited so anything you can scroll/get from alternative methods means more of a selection available to you.

Where I will disagree with Bluegirl_two on spells like Sleep and Deep Slumber. These spells utility has a lot to do with Crowd control or even simply avoiding fights that don't need to be fought. However, that does not play in to the smash it all play style, but the Zerg play style these spells can go a long way in avoiding the DA and pile ups that can occur at choke points.

So quotes like these let me know that the person making them seems to not have a clue about spells and has allowed their own view to become to narrowed at the possibility


...
The other thing to think about is how will the spell serve my needs as the character levels? I would never select Sleep, as an example, because I cannot see it providing anything useful to my character in the long run. So, I would take any advice (like the wiki) telling me that Sleep is an important spell as evidence that the person giving advice doesn't have a clue.
...


But again I do agree with this statement and it is the key for each sorcerer as they put their spell list together.


So, evaluate why you chose those enhancement paths and select the spells that best support your vision for your build.

AbyssalMage
04-26-2015, 10:46 PM
I have a 12th level sorcerer, Air and Fire Savant, with lots of SLAs and points spent in crit enablers (for full build, read unbongwah's post in this thread: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/445930-Returning-player?p=5387853&viewfull=1#post5387853. She is human. I was just wondering what a good spell set would like like, and maybe good attack strategies.
Thanks!
Basically you can switch one spell every 3/days. The spells I pick at lower levels are not necessary the ones I will have in my spell book at level 20.
Disclaimer

If you are a person who knocks out 20 levels in 5 days, you would benefit from simply taking the spells you plan on having at 20.
If you play like me and it takes 90+ days to make it to 20, then you will notice switching 1 spell every 3 days isn't so illogical.
If you spend any time in Vale/Shavarath(sp?), you may want to stay away from fire. Considering Vale/Shavarath(sp?) will most likely be coming to you Soon(TM) in level 30 "end game" content, it could have bearing on future builds. So if you want to play with fire now, it would be ideal.

Enhancements are the same way. Although as long as you have PP (or AS) you can change them to your hearts pleasure.

Personally, my level 1 and 2 spells are always utility spells at level 20 which would be impractical from level 1-7.

Enoach
04-26-2015, 11:11 PM
Basically you can switch one spell every 3/days. The spells I pick at lower levels are not necessary the ones I will have in my spell book at level 20.
Disclaimer

If you are a person who knocks out 20 levels in 5 days, you would benefit from simply taking the spells you plan on having at 20.
If you play like me and it takes 90+ days to make it to 20, then you will notice switching 1 spell every 3 days isn't so illogical.
If you spend any time in Vale/Shavarath(sp?), you may want to stay away from fire. Considering Vale/Shavarath(sp?) will most likely be coming to you Soon(TM) in level 30 "end game" content, it could have bearing on future builds. So if you want to play with fire now, it would be ideal.

Enhancements are the same way. Although as long as you have PP (or AS) you can change them to your hearts pleasure.

Personally, my level 1 and 2 spells are always utility spells at level 20 which would be impractical from level 1-7.

To add to this there is an Item called Dragonsblood - Favor Reward for Argonesian and also found in quests or even the Auction House. This will allow you an unlimited number of spell changes for 30 minutes time. I use these when I need to redo multiple spells or say switch up the whole spell book.

Bluegirl_Two
04-26-2015, 11:59 PM
So quotes like these let me know that the person making them seems to not have a clue about spells and has allowed their own view to become to narrowed at the possibility.

Please read what I said again but a bit more carefully.

I said that the OP needs to choose spells based on how they see the character developing. I used myself as an example saying I would never choose sleep. That does not equate to OP not making that choice, neither does it mean that I don't understand the choice. It just means that I would not make that choice.

That goes hand in hand with my point -- that each person has to make spell choices based on what they expect out of the character.

So, contrary to your point, it is not me being narrow minded about spell choices -- rather it is you who feels the need to be an apologist for a particular play style. And that makes it you who is being narrow minded.

I really do not care what spells get chosen. What I do care about, and what I am trying to recommend to the OP, is that the spell choices are consistent with their vision of the character rather than yours, mine, or some other person's idea. After all, none of us is playing the character -- OP is.

Before you are critical be sure you understand the point that is being made.

cru121
04-27-2015, 12:02 AM
I used to play an air/fire sorc. My tactics was, essentially, alternate between nukes and dazes. Open with sonic blast (makes mobs visible), nuke, daze again Electric Loop SLA, nuke again. Shocking Grasp SLA to kill lone survivors / those who manage to approach. Scorching Ray to snipe archers. Another common tactics is to gather mobs (until as much alert as you can handle), cast wall of fire, and let them burn. In the fire, you can either turtle behind a shield, or jump around and spam your dazes to minimize incoming damage (or add nukes if needed / having too much mana).

The main nukes I've used are Lightning Bolt SLA / Fireball / Shout / Chain Lightning / Delayed Blast Fireball / Greater Shout (nuke and daze). Special use evocations are Cyclonic Blast (force damage) and Prismatic Spray (chance to instakill mobs).

Bluegirl_Two
04-27-2015, 12:07 AM
If you spend any time in Vale/Shavarath(sp?), you may want to stay away from fire.

I intentionally stayed away from this. I don't think it is appropriate to question OP's choice of build or to critique air/fire. IMO it is better to allow OP to play the character and to discover the strengths and weaknesses of the choice for their self. Over sharing in replies only serves to confuse and complicate things. What is more, the normal water savant choice that was popular for Vale has not been in favor for a while now due to other content. So, questioning enhancement and build choices seems outside the parameters of the original question and better saved for future posts by OP.

janave
04-27-2015, 12:25 AM
Never really understood the Fire Sorc => skip vale/shave content argument. Sure you may not be able to do a full nuker role, but you can still spam FoDs/Disintegrates and the prismatic spells. A non dump mainstat arcane should be able to contribute in most content, to some extent at least.

My advice is to take generic spells too that works in all situations, disintegrate is one such spell. Get a swap transmutation dc item, and an impulse + kinetic stick combo, and you can do some meaningful damage.

Strategy will depend if you solo or group. If you solo: get displacement, resist+protection, invisibility, aoe cc, and aoe dots. If you group, you most likely wont need to compete for every kill, and just kill the targets your group seemingly have trouble with, mages, self healing/regenerating stuff, bosses.

Enoach
04-27-2015, 01:17 AM
The other thing to think about is how will the spell serve my needs as the character levels? I would never select Sleep, as an example, because I cannot see it providing anything useful to my character in the long run. So, I would take any advice (like the wiki) telling me that Sleep is an important spell as evidence that the person giving advice doesn't have a clue.




Please read what I said again but a bit more carefully.

I said that the OP needs to choose spells based on how they see the character developing. I used myself as an example saying I would never choose sleep. That does not equate to OP not making that choice, neither does it mean that I don't understand the choice. It just means that I would not make that choice.

That goes hand in hand with my point -- that each person has to make spell choices based on what they expect out of the character.

So, contrary to your point, it is not me being narrow minded about spell choices -- rather it is you who feels the need to be an apologist for a particular play style. And that makes it you who is being narrow minded.

I really do not care what spells get chosen. What I do care about, and what I am trying to recommend to the OP, is that the spell choices are consistent with their vision of the character rather than yours, mine, or some other person's idea. After all, none of us is playing the character -- OP is.

Before you are critical be sure you understand the point that is being made.

I actually didn't mean to offend you as I keyed in on what is bolded and even took the time to explain why it can be considered a spell in the rotation as it concerns two different play styles. And while your statement came across that the wiki author was clueless, I simply pointed out that you have a narrow view of the usefulness of this particular spell.

And I was not critical of your thought on the spell, I simply disagreed with your assessment of it and the wiki author.
----------------------------
On the Fire Savant issue skipping Vale. While there are stuff that is immune/resist to Fire and stuff that is immune/resist to electric, they don't always co-mingle. As others have pointed out having a couple utility spells outside your element (not necessarily anti to your savant) but spells like Force, Sonic and instant death will give you some damage/kill spells but also some crowd control options.

I actually did a Fire Savant life through the Vale and used Electric as my alternate element. While I don't recommend solo'ng this way, you can still bring a decent punch and contribution to the team, just pick your spell based on your target - so it won't necessarily be mash buttons - a little thought and you will be doing just fine.

Bluegirl_Two
04-27-2015, 10:06 AM
I actually didn't mean to offend you as I keyed in on what is bolded and even took the time to explain why it can be considered a spell in the rotation as it concerns two different play styles. And while your statement came across that the wiki author was clueless, I simply pointed out that you have a narrow view of the usefulness of this particular spell.

And I was not critical of your thought on the spell, I simply disagreed with your assessment of it and the wiki author.

My problem with the wiki author is where they place this spell and others like it that are situational and play-style dependent. It is not an "important" spell -- suggesting that every player should probably have it in their inventory of spells. It is a "situational" spell -- valuable depending on play style and context.

There are several spells at L1 that provide similar functionality as Sleep. Cause Fear, Charm Person, Hypnotize and Sonic Blast all provide similar capabilities. Sonic Blast, in particular, might be a better choice for an Air Savant due to the sonic affinity. Consequently it is absolutely horrid for the wiki author to have placed Sleep in the "important" category where uninformed players will assume that this means they have to choose that spell.

Even your observation is that it should be considered as a spell in rotation is dependent on style of play -- telling me that you understand that Sleep is not "important" but rather "situational."

Sorcerers get 4 L1 spells. While it is true that they can change spells there is a lot of value in avoiding that need by informed spell selection.

There was a time when Mage Armor, Shield and Night Shield were almost standard as 3 of the 4 choices. In today's game that isn't the case due to enhancements. Because later level spells provide stronger versions of many of the low level spells and because spell points are limited early on, it has been relatively common to see Master's Touch as a L1 spell. Personally, I take buff spells -- Jump and Merfolk's Blessing -- and take the other 2 spells based on what type of sorcerer I am playing.

To me that implies somewhere between 2 and 6 spells at L1 are really candidates for the "important" list and all of the rest belong in the "situational" listing. And, with the enhancements available, the list of "important" L1 spells can be reduced even further.

Can we jump to the L3 spells? I normally carry Haste. I almost never carry Rage. Haste is important, Rage is situational. How about the L8 spells -- Black Dragon Bolt, Polar Ray? If you are an Earth Savant or a Water Savant, but for an Air/Fire Savant?

The wiki is just bad. Really, terribly, bad. I know it and you, even if you don't want to admit it, tacitly agree when you observe that "important" spells are really only valuable based on play style.

Important spells will be play style independent -- important to every character and worth considering regardless of build or play style. Situational spells will be build and play style dependent. To argue otherwise, as the author of the wiki does, is to show that the writer does not have a clue.

Enoach
04-27-2015, 10:20 AM
My problem with the wiki author is where they place this spell and others like it that are situational and play-style dependent. It is not an "important" spell -- suggesting that every player should probably have it in their inventory of spells. It is a "situational" spell -- valuable depending on play style and context.

There are several spells at L1 that provide similar functionality as Sleep. Cause Fear, Charm Person, Hypnotize and Sonic Blast all provide similar capabilities. Sonic Blast, in particular, might be a better choice for an Air Savant due to the sonic affinity. Consequently it is absolutely horrid for the wiki author to have placed Sleep in the "important" category where uninformed players will assume that this means they have to choose that spell.

Even your observation is that it should be considered as a spell in rotation is dependent on style of play -- telling me that you understand that Sleep is not "important" but rather "situational."

Sorcerers get 4 L1 spells. While it is true that they can change spells there is a lot of value in avoiding that need by informed spell selection.

There was a time when Mage Armor, Shield and Night Shield were almost standard as 3 of the 4 choices. In today's game that isn't the case due to enhancements. Because later level spells provide stronger versions of many of the low level spells and because spell points are limited early on, it has been relatively common to see Master's Touch as a L1 spell. Personally, I take buff spells -- Jump and Merfolk's Blessing -- and take the other 2 spells based on what type of sorcerer I am playing.

To me that implies somewhere between 2 and 6 spells at L1 are really candidates for the "important" list and all of the rest belong in the "situational" listing. And, with the enhancements available, the list of "important" L1 spells can be reduced even further.

Can we jump to the L3 spells? I normally carry Haste. I almost never carry Rage. Haste is important, Rage is situational. How about the L8 spells -- Black Dragon Bolt, Polar Ray? If you are an Earth Savant or a Water Savant, but for an Air/Fire Savant?

The wiki is just bad. Really, terribly, bad. I know it and you, even if you don't want to admit it, tacitly agree when you observe that "important" spells are really only valuable based on play style.

Important spells will be play style independent -- important to every character and worth considering regardless of build or play style. Situational spells will be build and play style dependent. To argue otherwise, as the author of the wiki does, is to show that the writer does not have a clue.

We obviously have differing opinions on which is important, why they are important and how to use them. The wiki provides information of core utility and spells that can help a sorcerer think about what they may need to make sure when they walk into a dungeon they have something that works.

I agreed with you that each person needs to pick spells based on their view of how they want the character to work. I disagree with you about spells (even ones you listed in this follow-up email) it is because of experience with these spells over the life of DDO.

SirValentine
04-27-2015, 07:23 PM
My problem with the wiki author is...
...
The wiki is just bad. Really, terribly, bad.
...
...as the author of the wiki does, is to show that the writer does not have a clue.


So, you've written bunch in this thread about how bad the wiki article is, not just in the post I quoted from, but in others as well.

Do you understand what it means, the fact that it's a "wiki"?

Wipey
04-29-2015, 07:01 AM
The wiki is just bad. Really, terribly, bad. I know it and you, even if you don't want to admit it, tacitly agree when you observe that "important" spells are really only valuable based on play style.

Important spells will be play style independent -- important to every character and worth considering regardless of build or play style. Situational spells will be build and play style dependent. To argue otherwise, as the author of the wiki does, is to show that the writer does not have a clue.
Not cool dude. Wiki might not be perfect or always accurate or up to date but it's still huge free resource for everybody.
People spend tens or hundreds hours of their spare time doing what many take for granted.

Disagree all you want, but not cool to bash wiki editors.
Or even better, contribute if you think you know better.

Eth
04-29-2015, 07:29 AM
Sonic Blast, Jump, Protection from Evil, Shield
Knock, Web, Invisibility, Scorching Ray
Haste, Rage, Displacement, Lightning Bolt
Dimension Door, Wall of Fire, Solid Fog, Crushing Despair
Eladar's Electric Surge, Cloudkill, Ball Lightning, Mind Fog
Chain Lightning, Disintegrate, Undeath to Death
Otto's Dancing Sphere, Delayed Blast Fireball, Finger of Death
Sunburst, Ottos Irresistible, Powerword Stun
Mass Hold Monster, Wail of the Banshee, Energy Drain

Eth
04-29-2015, 09:20 AM
There are several spells at L1 that provide similar functionality as Sleep. Cause Fear, Charm Person, Hypnotize and Sonic Blast all provide similar capabilities. Sonic Blast, in particular, might be a better choice for an Air Savant due to the sonic affinity. Consequently it is absolutely horrid for the wiki author to have placed Sleep in the "important" category where uninformed players will assume that this means they have to choose that spell.


Even your observation is that it should be considered as a spell in rotation is dependent on style of play -- telling me that you understand that Sleep is not "important" but rather "situational."
Yes, sleep is bad, we get it. Does that make the whole article bad? I don't really see anything wrong with the other spells listed under "important".



Sorcerers get 4 L1 spells. While it is true that they can change spells there is a lot of value in avoiding that need by informed spell selection.

There was a time when Mage Armor, Shield and Night Shield were almost standard as 3 of the 4 choices. In today's game that isn't the case due to enhancements. Because later level spells provide stronger versions of many of the low level spells and because spell points are limited early on, it has been relatively common to see Master's Touch as a L1 spell. Personally, I take buff spells -- Jump and Merfolk's Blessing -- and take the other 2 spells based on what type of sorcerer I am playing.

You want Jump (optional if you can cap it without the spell), either Nightshield or Shield (for the immunity against magic missiles), Protection from Evil (for the Immunity against Commands).

For the last sonic blast is great for breakables. Hypnotism is useful as a debuff.

You bash the wiki article (or rather the whole wiki) for one questionable spell choice, yet you give out several questionable spell choices yourself.

There's only a handful quests that even have longer swim parts. Do you really pick merfolk's?
Masters touch is something I would advise against unless you play some melee sorc build.
Even at the very low levels SLAs are much more powerful than swinging an axe. The SLAs are always usable, even if you run out of SP, due to Echoes of Power, which is autogranted at lvl 1.




Can we jump to the L3 spells? I normally carry Haste. I almost never carry Rage. Haste is important, Rage is situational.
In heroics both are desired buffs.

In Epics both are more situational.
Since my run speed is covered by items I usually don't bother with it. To much SP with a short duration for +1 reflex and +1 dodge.



How about the L8 spells -- Black Dragon Bolt, Polar Ray? If you are an Earth Savant or a Water Savant, but for an Air/Fire Savant?
The article adresses this in the opener. Maybe read it next time.
Listing Polar Ray and Black Dragon Bolt as important under that premise is correct. Those are good spells for the appropriate savants.



The wiki is just bad. Really, terribly, bad. I know it and you, even if you don't want to admit it, tacitly agree when you observe that "important" spells are really only valuable based on play style.
So the whole wiki is bad, because you think Sleep is rather a situational spell than an important one.

Take a look at other wikis. Honestly, as in every wiki, not everything is correct or up to date, but the ddowiki is actually pretty outstanding on how well it's organized and how much it covers.



Important spells will be play style independent -- important to every character and worth considering regardless of build or play style. Situational spells will be build and play style dependent. To argue otherwise, as the author of the wiki does, is to show that the writer does not have a clue.
The article clearly asks for improvement. Instead of your useless bashing you could help to improve it with your perls of wisdom.
I'm sure the DDO community would really benefit from an overhaul of the really important level 1 spells.