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CelticTrojan
04-19-2015, 06:12 PM
Hi ,
With all the recent improvements to other classes and with Ranger on the horizon, I came up with the idea for what I believe is missing from the Fighter class.
We have Kensei (Weapon specialist warrior), Stalwart Defender (Defensive Warrior) and Vanguard (Sword and Board Warrior). The two strengths of the class are the number of feats available and the tactics options we should have. To this end I consider the following to be a suitable way to round out the class options, and would like feedback from other players who like to fighter class most of all.

I realise that the odds of getting another tree before more deserving classes (FvS, Arti, Druid etc) is slim but I would like to start the discussion as soon as possible, in the hope devs can take note and we can have something prepared when our time comes around.

Note: The tree makes use of any of 4 Stats to power the options available. STR is considered the traditional fighter stat, however thats a limitation in the minds of other classes and for true warriors we use all our options. This makes for the flexibility of the class, when properly incorporated into the game. And for those who would dismiss the non STR options I offer this slightly tongue in cheek comparison of examples:

To hit/
To Dam Stat
STR Conan The Barbarian (do I need to explain this one? )
DEX Drizzt Do'urden (whirling blades of death, movement)
CON Rocky Balboa (Out endures the enemy's onslaught and then strikes back)
INT Batman (Out thinks superior numbers, misdirects, creates mental fear etc, uses gadgets)

Tactical Warrior (a.k.a The Way of Fighting Styles)

Core 1 : Basic Training (1 AP)
Per core taken,
Tactical Training:
Grants a +1 bonus to the DC of your combat feats and
+1% Doublestrike and
+1% Offhand chance and
+1 Melee Power.

Core 2 : Squire (1 AP)
First Aid: Use a healing kit to perform 1D6 Heal (heal skill improves). 30 second cooldown.

Core 3 : Sargent (1 AP)
Bind Your Wounds: Use a healing kit to perform 3D6 Heal (heal skill improves). 30 second cooldown.

Core 4: Commander (1 AP)
Second Wind: Stabilize when you have dropped below 0 HP. (Once per rest)

Core 5: Master of Tactics (1 AP)
Back from the Dead: Same as Raise Dead (20mins cooldown)
Yes I learned to play dead when needed ...

Capstone: Grandmaster Tactician (1 AP)
Supreme Self Improvement: +2 STR and DEX and CON and INT
Supreme Tactician: Grants a +10 bonus to the DC of your combat feats and + 10 Melee Power
Feat: Diehard



Tier 1

THF I : (Requires Two Handed Fighting Feat) (1-3 AP)
Brutal Fighting - 10/15/20 % more Hate

TWF I : (Requires Two Weapon Fighting Feat) (2 AP)
+10% Offhand chance

SWF I : (Requires Single Weapon Fighting Feat) (2 AP)
+10% Doublestrike chance

Tactics: Crack the Shell (Requires Improved Sunder Feat)(2 AP)
Improved Sunder - -5 Armor class and -10% fortification, Fort save vs (DC14 + highest stat (STR/DEX/CON/INT) + Shatter item bonus)
(As per feat but no stacking save debuff). 15 second cooldown.

Way of the Warrior : Skills (1-3 AP)
+1/+2/+3 Balance and Intimidate and Jump




Tier 2

THF II : (Requires THF I and Power Attack Feat) (1-3 AP)
Improved Power Attack - +1/+2/+3 extra power attack damage, -1/-2/-3 To hit

TWF II : (Requires Weapon Finesse Feat) (2 AP)
Dex to Damage for Finessable weapons

SWF II : (Requires SWF I and Precision Feat) (2 AP)
Improved Precision - + 5% to Hit, Fortification -15%

Tactics: Overburden (Requires Tactics: Crack the Shell and Improved Trip Feat) (2 AP)
Use their weight against them – Trip : (DC14 + highest stat (STR/DEX/CON/INT) + Vertigo item bonus)

Way of the Warrior : Tactics (1-3 AP)
+1/+2/+3 tactical bonus to the DC of your combat feats


Tier 3

THF III : (Requires THF II and Improved Two Handed Fighting Feat) (1-3 AP)
Great Weapon aptitude – 2/4/6 % Glancing Blows

TWF III : (Requires TWF I and Improved Two Weapon Fighting Feat) (2 AP)
+10% Offhand chance, total +20%

SWF III : (Requires SWF II and Improved Single Weapon Fighting Feat) (2 AP)
+10% Doublestrike chance, total +20%

Tactics: Overcome (Requires Tactics: Overburden) (2 AP)
Chop Wood - Knockdown: (DC10 + Half Fighter Level + highest stat (STR/DEX/CON/INT))

Self Improvement I (2 AP)
+1 STR or DEX or CON or INT


Tier 4

THF IV : (Requires THF III) (2 AP)
Great Swing - + 1 Critical Damage multiplier

TWF IV : (Requires TWF III) (2 AP)
Slice and Dice - + 1 Critical Threat range

SWF IV : (Requires SWF III) (2 AP)
+10% Combat Style Bonus

Tactics: Overlord (Requires Tactics: Overcome) (2 AP)
Flat of the weapon - Tactical Stun: (DC10 + highest stat (STR/DEX/CON/INT) + Stunning item bonus)

Self Improvement II (Requires Self Improvement I) (2 AP)
+1 STR or DEX or CON or INT


Tier 5

THF V : (Requires THF IV and Greater Two Handed Fighting Feat and Great Cleave Feat) (2 AP)
Supreme Cleave - +5(W) attack vs all opponents in range 360 arc

TWF V : (Requires TWF IV and Greater Two Weapon Fighting Feat) (2 AP)
Dance of Weapons – 2 attacks per opponent in range 360 arc

SWF V : (Requires SWF IV and Greater Single Weapon Fighting Feat) (2 AP)
Whirlwind Attack - +4(W) attack vs all opponents in range 360 arc

Tactics: Onslaught (Requires Tactics: Overlord) (2 AP)
Weapon Storm - +2(W) attack vs all opponents in range 360 arc (Reflex for Half damage), those hit must save vs Knockdown: (DC10 + Half Fighter Level + highest stat (STR/DEX/CON/INT)),
Reflex Saves. Flying or burrowing creatures are immune. 30 second cooldown.

Way of the Warrior: Ultimate (2 AP)
Passive - +4 Melee Power and
+4% Doublestrike and
+4% Offhand chance and
+4 Tactical bonus to the DC of your combat feats.
Active -
Tactical boost (30 secs): +10 Melee Power and
+10% Doublestrike and
+10% Offhand chance and
+10 Tactical bonus to the DC of your combat feats.
2 minute cooldown.

Thank you for your feedback,

CelticTrojan

(Dons armour of Troll repellent and wields weapon of Editing)

Robbenklopper
04-20-2015, 05:03 AM
Hi CelticTrojan,

I do like my pure fighter too and can´t complain about his tactical abilities. With all the feats, there´s a big variety and there´s already a lot to improve their DCs, even by PLs or race. Maybe vanguard is THE tactician. So why a 4th tree?
To be short, reading over your Suggestion, i think it´s getting too many boni and would be overperforming superman, Looks like a pick of the best raisins. A build more of your flavor could be achieved by multiclassing,

CelticTrojan
04-20-2015, 09:22 PM
Hi CelticTrojan,

I do like my pure fighter too and can´t complain about his tactical abilities. With all the feats, there´s a big variety and there´s already a lot to improve their DCs, even by PLs or race. Maybe vanguard is THE tactician. So why a 4th tree?
To be short, reading over your Suggestion, i think it´s getting too many boni and would be overperforming superman, Looks like a pick of the best raisins. A build more of your flavor could be achieved by multiclassing,

Hi Robbenklopper,
Thanks for the feedback. I agree that boni are a danger, one would want as much as possible and the devs must balance of course. An over performing superman? Compared to many builds in other parts of the forum, we would be subpar with just this tree (41 points) I would think.

With all the feats, there´s a big variety and there´s already a lot to improve their DCs,

Unless you are strength based you miss out on Stunning, Trip, sunder etc . Those feats only work with that stat. The purpose of the tree proposed was to expand that in much the same way as Vanguard did for S&B. Vanguard has tactics for one combat style (and does it well, nice one devs). Vanguard inspired this tree because it showed what devs are thinking and made me consider a Int based "Pure" fighter option with Harper for the first time.

A build more of your flavor could be achieved by multiclassing,

Ah but thats the point, if you want to be a wizard must you multiclass into barbarian? If you want to be a Rogue must you consider monk or paladin? They could work but the focus of the recent Dev changes is to make Pure classes viable and interesting. My making this tree was not to uber the class to the stars (a little self healing, no traps, no evasion, good prr/mrr, no real umd - hardly overpowered).

The current Pure fighter trees favour Str based tactics unless you S&B. I suggest to expand this into the other combat styles and using the other stats a character gets. There is no magic in this tree, nor Poisons or Dot's. It is like the fighter, a straight martial focus, the existing trees cover weapons, defense, and offensive defense; and now this rounds out the way of the warrior with tactical combat to control the battlefield.

CelticTrojan

giftie
04-21-2015, 02:28 AM
While I like the idea of a Fighter tree that focuses on tactics and possibly weapon style, the abilities you describe are much more powerful than anything in the Kensai tree.

I agree with Robbenklopper that some abilties seem cherry-picked from other classes (e.g. 20% offhand, Supreme Cleave, etc), where I'd rather see new, unique fighter abilities. Fighters have enough feats to take both THF and TWF feat lines, and are able switch between the two for whenever the situation requires trash AoE or single target boss DPS. Which is fine, except you suggest as powerful THF as Barbs and as powerful TWF as Rangers - at the same time. Weapon style needs to be a selector at tier 1 (yes, SWF too, as there will be Wolf tacticians).

The core skills are terrible, whereas most abilities are placed too low in the tree. Noone would play pure Fighter, but everyone would splash 4 levels. Basically, all crit profile enhancements should probably be T5 or in a high core (level 18 or capstone) like it is for any other class but Bard and Paladin. Swashbuckling carries its own restrictions (armor, weapon style and alignment) and Paladin is just... well, it should be brought in line, and not the baseline for new trees. SWF abilities need to be toned down. A lot. (20% DS and 10% MP bonus to an already competitive fighting style? Why?)

Robbenklopper
04-21-2015, 03:05 AM
... Unless you are strength based you miss out on Stunning, Trip, sunder etc . Those feats only work with that stat. ...

... The current Pure fighter trees favour Str based tactics unless you S&B. I suggest to expand this into the other combat styles and using the other stats a character gets. ... and now this rounds out the way of the warrior with tactical combat to control the battlefield.

CelticTrojan

Hi CelticTrojan,
I get what you mean, using some other stat than STR for it. Sure you Need INT to know where to hit for Tactics, the DEX to do it, but I think i still will be STR that e.g. is strong enought to do the stun. Fighter is mainly STR based and the char to do, and he´s trained in tacticthings for the battlefield. It´s hard to compare to real life, sure i know that if you´re a tricky even weak Monk, you trip em all. That´s what the corerules give us to Play in this Environment. Those are the specialists. Any why not useing the given what fighter is supposed to (STR) to do it? Others would complain and at last everyone wants to stun then.
On the other side, if you´re a low STR but effective tactician, you´ll just Keep them busy and would be lacking of DPS, the fight will be like chewing gum for you even if you beat em in the end, or you´re just a contributer while everyone else beats em down. Great Option for teamplay, but not when you´re alone. That´s what Monk feels a bit at the Moment. To compensate the low STR DPS by giving big cleave feats for enhancements, i think it´ll run out of Balance. Imagine People then still muslticlassing and abusing the given boni by your designed tree.

CelticTrojan
04-21-2015, 05:30 PM
Hi CelticTrojan,
I get what you mean, using some other stat than STR for it. Sure you Need INT to know where to hit for Tactics, the DEX to do it, but I think i still will be STR that e.g. is strong enought to do the stun. Fighter is mainly STR based and the char to do, and he´s trained in tacticthings for the battlefield. It´s hard to compare to real life, sure i know that if you´re a tricky even weak Monk, you trip em all. That´s what the corerules give us to Play in this Environment. Those are the specialists. Any why not useing the given what fighter is supposed to (STR) to do it? Others would complain and at last everyone wants to stun then.
On the other side, if you´re a low STR but effective tactician, you´ll just Keep them busy and would be lacking of DPS, the fight will be like chewing gum for you even if you beat em in the end, or you´re just a contributer while everyone else beats em down. Great Option for teamplay, but not when you´re alone. That´s what Monk feels a bit at the Moment. To compensate the low STR DPS by giving big cleave feats for enhancements, i think it´ll run out of Balance. Imagine People then still muslticlassing and abusing the given boni by your designed tree.

Thanks for the continued analysis. I would politely counter that a fighter is not all about strength and to many the game is not all about reducing numbers to zero or less. DPS is one element of character development, and fighters can do it well (not as well as Pal or Barb as detailed in other forum discussions). But is that all fighters are to be DPS or tank? What about cc? Or a mixture of all three ? Or even stealth (scout, yes rogue or ranger are the better but not the only options) Perhaps for end game Full DPS or Full tank is it, but surely in the new enhancement style of DDO we have room for depth or breath of character? Perhaps it is my inner roleplayer coming out, that yearns for a Pure fighter more like Roy perhaps lol. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002.html).

You do raise a valid point about multiclass cherry picking to an extent (which happens to most trees anyway Monkcher anyone?), which is why the prereq's are feats - for the THF column you need PA, CL, GCL, THF x 3 ie 6 feats to take the linked tiers. Most other classes get 7(8) in total, so cherry picking will require investment, and only a fighter could invest so many feats in all the tree. I think those willing to invest should by return receive appropriate returns. Look at the Kensai tree and the second column for +1/+1, Weapons focus etc are not worth taking at this time (another tread suggests good improvements). I aimed for good use of feats leading to good improvements of what those feats bring to a combat style.

Celtic Trojan

CelticTrojan
04-21-2015, 06:10 PM
Hi Giftie,
Thank for contributing.

>While I like the idea of a Fighter tree that focuses on tactics and possibly weapon style, the abilities you describe are much more powerful than anything in the Kensai tree.

That as other forum discussions have stated is an issue with the Kensai tree. Should we limit ourselves by a first pass tree that has been superceded by other more well developed trees as the devs got the hang of the new system? Is the kensai tree intended to be the most powerful available for fighters?

>I agree with Robbenklopper that some abilties seem cherry-picked from other classes (e.g. 20% offhand, Supreme Cleave, etc), where I'd rather see new, unique fighter abilities.
Ah that would be because existing abilities (suited for the class and tree of course) are easier to get implemented by time scarce devs. If its copy paste its likely to get done. I too would like new skills - disarm, shield breaker, shield wall, thrown spear based attacks; but will the devs have the time to bring them in? I think not, so i used what was already available.

>Fighters have enough feats to take both THF and TWF feat lines, and are able switch between the two for whenever the situation requires trash AoE or single target boss DPS.
i do not disagree with this, it is the class strength, just not sure I get how that negates the tree as shown? Maybe I am missing something?

>Which is fine, except you suggest as powerful THF as Barbs and as powerful TWF as Rangers - at the same time. Weapon style needs to be a selector at tier 1 (yes, SWF too, as there will be Wolf tacticians).
I can see how you might think this, but looking at the trees for Barbs particularly (and thanks to the recent improvements wow oh wow they look good) I think barb still beats fighter in raw dps (others can confirm or contrary using the appropriate maths) and Rangers out TWF fighters as well. But neither can switch as you have said above. My aim was good enough THF or TWF ability to be worth it but flexibility as the best part of taking the tree. I may have not achieved that and hence my asking for comments.
As for a weapon style selector, surely that's kensai-like and limits the tactical fighter to one style like Barb or Ranger? And that is what we don't want?

>The core skills are terrible,
Can you suggest alternatives? I'd like to know what would be suitable that is not the same as other fighter trees?

>whereas most abilities are placed too low in the tree.
Perhaps, but remember the cost in feats to acquire these and the fact that there must be some benefit to paying the AP. Lessen the improvements is an option and why we are discussing it. If we balance the tree then the devs may look more favourably on its inclusion as we define it ie we get to make our own tree for the game as much as possible.

> Noone would play pure Fighter, but everyone would splash 4 levels.
Robbenklopper shares the same concern and I admit that splashes are likely, however 18/2, 16/4, 12/8 etc permutations already exist and few take full fighter as it is now. Lets give people a reason to go pure by combining our ideas?


>Basically, all crit profile enhancements should probably be T5 or in a high core (level 18 or capstone) like it is for any other class but Bard and Paladin.
While I have not done a full deep dive of all permutations across all trees, my general impression is that while most trees follow T5, few if any trees involve the amount of feats needed to get the crit profile enhancements. And they are split evenly over two styles, so require AP, stat, BAB, level and feat investment to gain what others just need level and AP for. A suitable gating mechanism I would think. And Bard and Paladin show that the devs are open to lower tiers where it is appropriate to do so (They do have a vision and yes sometimes they step back from earlier choices). I would argue in general, outside of character or tree considerations that the fighter of all classes should have the easiest (relatively speaking) access to weapon enhancements as that is our main focus. We fight, we use weapons to do this, we also control the battleground with tactics, and we use our DEX/INT (Con for Dwarfs) to guide our weapons. Wizards have spells, we have weapons/armour/tactics which when used in the right combinations like the right spell combos for a magic user lead to victory over the objectives.

As an aside, my view of stats relative to the fighter class is that all should be equally applicable with the right background.

STR - punches through defenses and causes damage (STR to hit/ to dam - the default for DDO)
DEX - Agility bypasses defenses with blinding speed and many small cuts cause damage overall (DEX to hit/ to dam - rangers show this as their main melee)
INT - Knowledge of the defenses allows a smart fighter to know the gaps and exploit them, knowledge of the enemy internals/bodies causes the damage (INT to hit/ to dam - new harper tree knows the way)
CON - Dwarven toughness draws the enemy in as they crash impotently against the Dwarven rock, leaving themselves open to counterattack and damage (CON to hit/ to dam - Dwarfs are tough)

WIS - Not mentioned in my tree but needed I think for Monk, centuries of combat and training passed down from master to apprentice results in overcoming enemies using their own nature against them (WIS to hit/ to dam)
CHA - Bard and Purple Dragon knight cover this, Swashbuckler and War leader show how this can be done.

Celtic Trojan

the_one_dwarfforged
04-24-2015, 04:02 PM
i dont think there will be a 4th fighter tree any time soon. i would like the ******** kensei/1 weapon type thing to be dropped in favor of a more opportunistic approach to using weapons (the weapon focus group thing is a serious hamstring, but its going to stay, and there are issues with the "pick up any weapon and use it" approach if you are thinking of using more than 1 kind of fighting style) and more focus on tactics and less on idiotic monk things.

however after glancing over your proposed enhancements, i think they are close to 100% terrible.

first off, you dont list "use x stat to hit/dmg" anywhere that i saw in your enhancement tree. additionally, trip and stun etc will still be str based, so there is a conflict between the "tactics tree" and the actual tactical abilities, which you addressed, but not well.

core granting 1% dstrike and 1% offhand chance simultaneously makes twf the absolute superior fighting style for a fighter using this tree, no contest. also the large tactical dc might seem liek it would help, but honestly if your dcs dont suck you will land your stun and trip meaning that this really wouldnt be a power upgrade. and as a pure fighter using this tree id still wear boots of the innocent, so pointless to have an overkill dc (note i do think kensai should have an enormous buff to tactical dcs (some of that coming from a moderate str buff) like this, but enemies would need their fort saves rebalanced so that paladins and barbs arent just as good as a fighter in tactics, and enemy hp, ability cds, number of abilites would need to be looked at to make this kind of buff actually worth it).

all of the cores relating to healing and not dying need to go. fighters already have weaksauce dps compared to pallies and barbs, dont need any more "help".


t1: these enhancements have no synergy, unless you consider switching fighting styles from fight to fight a synergy (which would require multiple feats per style assuming they dont lock each other out, multiple feats per weapon type (assuming you want to use say, greataxes rapiers, and bows; that would cost mroe feats than even a fighters got), or it just wouldnt be worth it at all).
thf1: grants no combat benefit, but grants more hate. thf fighters are not tanks and do not want aggro of anything that youd want a hate tank to tank. 100% bad for a fighter to have this.
twf1: 10% offhand is a lot for a t1, especially on a fighter splash (i am aware there is a monk t1 exactly like this). you are also gaining another 6% offhand from cores and another 10% from twf3 and another 4% from a t5. way way too much, gives tempest no reason for existing basically. would be unbalanced in general. not to mention this will work in conjunction with all the dstrike loaded into this tree.
swf1: 10% dstrike is a lot for a t1, especially on a fighter splash. also swf doesnt need any buffs, no fkin way. would be unbalanced in general.
crack the shell: so it requires spending a feat on imp sunder, but has no synergy with imp sunder for a str char, and for a dex/con/int char ti requires wasting a feat on imp sunder? no thanks, utterly worthless.
way of the warrior: +3 balance and garbage and garbage. pick two other skills and maybe there will be an outside chance id consider being interested in it.

t2:
thf2: unoriginal, but good.
twf2: so, assuming you put "use x stat to hit/dmg" in this tree somewhere, why would you need this? additionally it also requires you to spend for a feat and this enhancement to gain normal effectiveness with a subpar weapon group for a fighter. all around failure.
swf2: does this stack with feat? if it did, not sure it would be worth it anyway, as first of all power attack is important, and against anything id every even think about turning on precision for, the extra 15% fort bypass might be unnecessary or overkill. not worth picking this up.
overburden: there are an incredible amount of issues with this. first of all it requires improved trip. improved trip requires combat expertise, which is a bad bad bad bad feat. once you have improved trip for this enhancement, it is no longer useful (once again with the whole str vs dex/con/int thing). secondly it requires crack the shell, which itself requires improved sunder. so you are demanding payment of 3 feats, 1 of which is utterly useless to begin with, for 2 meh enhancements which proceed to invalidate the feats which are required for them. #muchfail.
way of the warrior: with all the other dc bonuses in this tree, this is vastly unnecessary ^2.

t3:
thf3: 6% glancing blows? as in what? +6% gb damage? +6% gb effects proc chance? if the former, its not bad, if the latter, not worth much.
twf3: read comments on twf1.
swf3: read comments on swf1.
overcome: same issues as overburden. for the ability to trip with a normal dc, which once again makes this line useless for a str char.
self improvement: kind of pointless to include str when no one would ever use str with this tree as, as that would increase the useless enhancement chains in it from 50% to 75%.

t4:
thf4: would pigeonhole thf users into falchions, which in conflict with the theme of the tree. also being a t4 means its majorly abusable.
twf4: twf currently has some serious advantages over the other styles right now. this would magnify that by a factor of millions.
swf4: combat style bonus to what? also, swf doesnt need any buffs.
overlord: same issues as overcome.
self improvement: read previous comment.

t5:
thf5: not worthy of being a t5. additionally, this is a general combat maneuver but only one style can take advantage of it? seems to be in conflict with the theme of the tree.
twf5: is this a passive ability? interesting though working in a 360 degree area seems counter intuitive to me. probably still weaker than the tempest t5, not that that is a bad thing tbh...
swf5: wwa is still afaik broken for eevrything but unarmed. bad. additionally, this is a general combat maneuver but only one style can take advantage of it? seems to be in conflict with the theme of the tree.
weaponstorm: so effectively a worse version of lay waste but with a better cd? meh.
way of the warrior: ultimate: the passive bonuses are pretty extreme. the active bonuses also seems extreme considering the uptime, and actual duration of the buff and its cd. and the entire enhancement reinforces the massive favoritism of this tree towards twf. also the dc bonuses in this enhancement combined with the rest of the tree are stupidly unnecessary. with all of the +dc enhancements in this tree you are hitting +23. quick tip: there is literally nothing in the game that youd need +23 class dc bonus to stun/trip that can be stunned/tripped in the first place.



tldr:

no synergy, no useful practical application, too much feat cost, wasteful, counter intuitive, ineffective, unbalanced. appears to have no grasp of game mechanics or there usage in actual game play.

CelticTrojan
04-25-2015, 05:51 PM
Ahh I had wondered when someone would turn up who hated the tree and anything from it. This would definitely be a NO vote then. And from a quick scan of it, not much point in countering the comments as it is such an extreme reaction to the proposal. I do not think anything I say will bring our opinions closer. It is useful for neutrals or less extreme opinioned persons to have this as a reference of the opposite of my views, if they can ignore the grammar/punctuation and the ad hominem references.

I will address one item from it as it warrants explanation of a deliberate action on my part.

>first off, you dont list "use x stat to hit/dmg" anywhere that i saw in your enhancement tree. additionally, trip and stun etc will still be str based, so there is a conflict between the "tactics tree" and the actual tactical abilities, which you addressed, but not well.

This is correct and deliberate. For STR/THF, this is the default and no change is required for melee. For DEX/TWF, this is included in the manner most commonly used by the devs, ie. Weapon finesse is available as a feat and the T2 (can be taken by any style fighter)

TWF II : (Requires Weapon Finesse Feat) (2 AP)
Dex to Damage for Finessable weapons

will give DEX to damage (with select weapons of course) as already done in the Ranger tree. Hence this is likely to be accepted as is, and not considered overpowered. Also several races get this in their racial trees.

SWF requires Balance and is somewhat stat neutral unlike the other two styles. Generally I have seen Dex builds mostly also using Weapon Finesse, but some Bard multiclassing is also available of course.

Int to hit/dam is the Harper tree and as we have seen with the recent Rogue updates, the Devs are not inclined to hand that out to other classes, even when it would make sense as for the Assassin. The Harper tree must be bought and hence this would be a financial decision. So any fighter choosing this option would need to have the Harper tree and spend the 12 AP.

CON to hit /dam was always going to be a wish list item and predominantly for the Dwarven warriors. They get Damage in their racial tree, and I did not think the Devs would give to hit. I believe I read somewhere once a Dev comment to the effect that they could not justify the to hit as they could not come up with the rationale behind that.

I would also agree that

>i dont think there will be a 4th fighter tree any time soon.

There is reference to a fighter pass later in the year and I assume at this point that the Kensei tree will be looked at then.
Perhaps contributing to that thread might be better, I'll need to catch up on my reading there. Oh well.

Celtic Trojan.

the_one_dwarfforged
04-28-2015, 08:22 PM
Ahh I had wondered when someone would turn up who hated the tree and anything from it. This would definitely be a NO vote then. And from a quick scan of it, not much point in countering the comments as it is such an extreme reaction to the proposal. I do not think anything I say will bring our opinions closer. It is useful for neutrals or less extreme opinioned persons to have this as a reference of the opposite of my views, if they can ignore the grammar/punctuation and the ad hominem references.

for the record i dont hate anything you posted. i gave you a critique of your suggested enhancement trees, and i told you the truth from the perspective of someone who has played this game too much, and plays and prefers fighters to other classes, and plays endgame. if you dont like what i wrote because what you were really after was a circle jerk, i recommend not posting on a public forum and proceeding to ask the public to review your build and provide comments.

additionally, yes i am opinionated, i have a pulse. however i have no idea what reason i could have to "hate the tree and anything from it" other than the fact that it is not a well designed enhancement tree, and again i dont "hate" it, i simply provided an honest review.

my post is useful for noobs or less extreme ddo educated as it points out that not everything works, if they can bother to read walloftext.

ps: now i have a reason to dislike the content of your posts, other than simply disagreeing with the actual content. gj.

Jiirix
04-29-2015, 03:55 AM
I would like to have Kensai good tactical options and a good centred option.