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Such755
04-12-2015, 03:15 AM
Hello
I am trying to set up my final life for my caster character. I want him to be a DC based sorcerer, main focus is necromancy, secondary evocation and enchantment, when it can work.

I hear about people who hit over 70 charisma and nearly 70 necro DC I never understand how. This is what I've got so far, for a drow sorcerer (Note: I will not include epic or non epic Litany, because the chances of me getting either are close to zero):

20 starting charisma
7 - levelups
6 - tome
2 - drow enhancement tree
2 - air savant tree
2 - water savant tree
2 - ship buff
2 - lasting ability potion from remnant turn in
2 - Great charisma feats
1 - excaptional
3 - insightful
11 - item
6 - Epic destiny (Exalted angel)
2 - yugo potion
1 - twist (To make it even)

That's a total of only 62 - still far from the 70+ I keep hearing about, even if I had the epic Litany, that would only bring it to 64

Spell DC:
10 - base
9 - Spell level with heighten
26 - Charisma mod
1 - Spell focus: Necro
1 - Greater spell focus: Necro
1 - Past life: Wizard
6 - Thunderforged orb
3 - Exalted angel core
3 - Necromancy specialist twist from Magister

Total of: 60 necro DC

Evocation:
10 - base
9 - Spell level with heighten
26 - Charisma mod
1 - Past life: Wizard
5 - Sage's locket
3 - Exalted angel core
3 - Sorcerer past life
1 - Air savant enhancement

Total of: 58 evocation DC


Now I've seen a few sorcerers just absolutely dominating epic elite gianthold, epic elite orchard and epic elite storm horns with their necromancy spells, evocation, enchantment, and hell - even their Phantasmal killer worked!

So please tell me, what am I missing here?

SirValentine
04-12-2015, 03:52 AM
20 starting charisma
7 - levelups
6 - tome
2 - drow enhancement tree
2 - air savant tree
2 - water savant tree
2 - ship buff
2 - lasting ability potion from remnant turn in
2 - Great charisma feats
1 - excaptional
3 - insightful
11 - item
6 - Epic destiny (Exalted angel)
2 - yugo potion
1 - twist (To make it even)

That's a total of only 62 - still far from the 70+ I keep hearing about, even if I had the epic Litany, that would only bring it to 64


2 - Completionist
2 - more from Exalted Angel (Angelic Presence core)
2 - more from twists
3 - more from enhancements (E.g., Drow 6 for 2, Harper 6 for 1, Savant 41 for 4, Savant 22 for 2, 5 left over)
--
9 more than 64 = 73 = +31 bonus




Spell DC:
10 - base
9 - Spell level with heighten
26 - Charisma mod
1 - Spell focus: Necro
1 - Greater spell focus: Necro
1 - Past life: Wizard
6 - Thunderforged orb
3 - Exalted angel core
3 - Necromancy specialist twist from Magister

Total of: 60 necro DC


2 - Augment
1 - Epic Spell Focus
1 - Ship Buff
1 - Shadowscale
1 - 2-hander TF
5 - +31 instead of +26 Cha mod
--
11 more than 60 = 71 total Necro DC

SirValentine
04-12-2015, 03:55 AM
Note: I will not include epic or non epic Litany, because the chances of me getting either are close to zero

Are you on Wayfinder? Because I'd think on any other server, Mark of Death should still get run enough for you to eventually rack up 20 completions.

Such755
04-12-2015, 06:01 AM
2 - Completionist
2 - more from Exalted Angel (Angelic Presence core)
2 - more from twists
3 - more from enhancements (E.g., Drow 6 for 2, Harper 6 for 1, Savant 41 for 4, Savant 22 for 2, 5 left over)
--
9 more than 64 = 73 = +31 bonus




2 - Augment
1 - Epic Spell Focus
1 - Ship Buff
1 - Shadowscale
1 - 2-hander TF
5 - +31 instead of +26 Cha mod
--
11 more than 60 = 71 total Necro DC


So all 3 twists will go on charisma? Is that not a waste? What about cocoon?
I don't understand the "more from enhancements" part, I already included all from drow and savants
Also, not gonna be completionist

As for the augments: epic spell focus will cost an epic charisma, doesn't make sense.
What's the augment?
2 hander? shouldn't the other hand hold a +7 spell pen or maybe +6 enchant ?

cru121
04-12-2015, 07:17 AM
I don't understand the "more from enhancements" part, I already included all from drow and savants

What's the augment?

You can get 2 more charisma from the tier 6 core enhancement (capstone) for one of your savant trees (assuming you're a sorcerer 20).
You can get 2 more charisma from the Harper Agent enhancement tree.

Yellow augments offer Insightful bonus to spell DC, available in +1 and +2 variants, for all schools. You can get the +2 variety from GH traders.

Chi_Ryu
04-12-2015, 07:55 AM
I hear about people who hit over 70 charisma and nearly 70 necro DC I never understand how.

By re-checking your arithmetic. Additional bonuses for being Completionist and Epic Completionist., having an Epic Litany of the Dead and Epic Deific Diadem.


20 starting charisma
7 - levelups
6 - tome
2 - drow enhancement tree
2 - air savant tree
2 - water savant tree
2 - ship buff
2 - lasting ability potion from remnant turn in
2 - Great charisma feats
1 - excaptional
3 - insightful
11 - item
6 - Epic destiny (Exalted angel)
2 - yugo potion
1 - twist (To make it even)

Your Arithmetic is faulty, that makes 69 Charisma already.

Now add:
+2 Completionist
+2 Savant capstone
+2 Angelic Presence (Exalted Angel core 3)
+1 Harper
+2 Epic Litany of the Dead

...and you have Charisma of 78. 81 if you factor in short-term House K potions of Influence, but that's not sustainable.


Spell DC:
10 - base
9 - Spell level with heighten
26 - Charisma mod
1 - Spell focus: Necro
1 - Greater spell focus: Necro
1 - Past life: Wizard
6 - Thunderforged orb
3 - Exalted angel core
3 - Necromancy specialist twist from Magister

Total of: 60 necro DC

+8 from having 78Cha instead of 62Cha.
+2 Topaz of Greater Necromancy
+1 - Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy (level 27 if you want to keep the Epic Charisma at 21 and 24, but hat has tradeoffs - no Ruin)
+1 - Archwizard Ship Buff
+1 - Flawless Shadowscale with Shadow Caster

That's DC 73. 74 with House K pots, 75 if you forgo maxing Evo and use a two-handed TF, as SirValentine has already said. 77 if you have the Epic Deific Diadem.


Evocation:
10 - base
9 - Spell level with heighten
26 - Charisma mod
1 - Past life: Wizard
5 - Sage's locket
3 - Exalted angel core
3 - Sorcerer past life
1 - Air savant enhancement

Total of: 58 evocation DC

+8 from having 78Cha instead of 62Cha.
+2 Topaz of Greater Evocation
+2 Twist Precise Casting: Evocation from Draconic Incarnation (T2).
+1 Archwizard Ship Buff
+1 Flawless Shadowscale with Shadow Caster
+1 for Thunderforged T2 stick instead of Sage's Locket.

That's also DC 73. 74 with House K pots, 75 if you wanted the tedium of swapping weapons each time you want to max Evo and use a two-handed TF specced for Evo. 77 if you have the Epic Deific Diadem.

You'll have use up 2 x T2 twists and 1 x T1 twist, so you'll only get Rejuvenation Coccoon if you are Epic Completionist.

Now, if you rule out Mark of Death raidloot, and the completionist and Epic completionist PLs, and dual wield single-handed caster sticks for Evo and Necro, then that makes Necro and Evo DC of 71. Still lots of tradeoffs there though (like taking 6 points of Charisma in Exalted Angel).

count_spicoli
04-12-2015, 08:03 AM
If you are aiming for a necro caster why not wizzy? You will be able to achieve a much higher necro dc on wizzy. And why exalted angerl over draconic?

Chi_Ryu
04-12-2015, 08:08 AM
And why exalted angerl over draconic?

Because Exalted Angel has innate +3 to all spell DCs and +2 to Charisma (when over 50% HP), and allows Charisma during level ups, just like Draconic Incarnation.

The only DC-interesting bit of DI (T2 +2 Evo or Enchantment, T1 +3DC to Fear-based spells) is twistable.

count_spicoli
04-12-2015, 08:27 AM
In that case if your gonna sacrafice all the draconic dmg stuff to be in exalted angel just for dc's than you should definatly be a wizzy. THe mass hold +sense weakness+enegry burst or dragon breath is just to good to pass up. ON my wizzy with a 74(and thats not fully maxxed yet) i can still nuke for 10000-16000 on groups fo mobs.

Chi_Ryu
04-12-2015, 08:46 AM
In that case if your gonna sacrafice all the draconic dmg stuff to be in exalted angel just for dc's than you should definatly be a wizzy. THe mass hold +sense weakness+enegry burst or dragon breath is just to good to pass up. ON my wizzy with a 74(and thats not fully maxxed yet) i can still nuke for 10000-16000 on groups fo mobs.

...that's peak damage when Energy Burst is off cooldown.

You also lose the cheap elemental SLAs, around 40 spell power in your two elements, no Awaken Elemental weakness, 3% less critical hit chances for your specialism, 6 less increased caster levels and max caster levels, no synergy with EA as it has no Int option, the increased spellpoints, etc.

And most importantly, the OP asked for a Sorcerer build, not a Wizard. :)

Wizza
04-12-2015, 08:57 AM
In that case if your gonna sacrafice all the draconic dmg stuff to be in exalted angel just for dc's than you should definatly be a wizzy. THe mass hold +sense weakness+enegry burst or dragon breath is just to good to pass up. ON my wizzy with a 74(and thats not fully maxxed yet) i can still nuke for 10000-16000 on groups fo mobs.

Sorcerers can do what Wizards do better and faster.

SirValentine
04-12-2015, 01:22 PM
So all 3 twists will go on charisma? Is that not a waste?


I'm not trying to tell you what you "should" do, just list what you are potentially missing. That was what you asked, right?

Using 3 of 4 potential twists for Cha will get you a higher total Cha and DC.

As for Cocoon, you have access to multiple healing SLAs from EA.



I don't understand the "more from enhancements" part, I already included all from drow and savants


Harper is favor-unlockable. And there's a Savant capstone you didn't include.



2 hander? shouldn't the other hand hold a +7 spell pen or maybe +6 enchant ?


2-hander grants +1 to all your spells. A 2-hander Necro stick and, say, the Sage's Cloak or Locket, gives you 1 more Necro and just as much Enchantment or Evoc as a pair of 1-hander Necro & Enchant or Evoc sticks.

If you were worried about max Spell Pen, you wouldn't be running in EA anyway, right? A max Spell Pen setup for those pesky EE Drow may well have not just different gear, but also different destiny & twists than a max DC setup, which you can happily use in places without Drow.

SirValentine
04-12-2015, 01:24 PM
By re-checking your arithmetic.

Your Arithmetic is faulty, that makes 69 Charisma already.


Heh, nice catch. I didn't even bother checking his figures.

Eth
04-12-2015, 01:39 PM
In that case if your gonna sacrafice all the draconic dmg stuff to be in exalted angel just for dc's than you should definatly be a wizzy. THe mass hold +sense weakness+enegry burst or dragon breath is just to good to pass up. ON my wizzy with a 74(and thats not fully maxxed yet) i can still nuke for 10000-16000 on groups fo mobs.

I can only speak from own experience here having played both, but I really found a Sorc in EA does more DPS than a wizard in DI and is much more SP efficient while doing so.

Such755
04-12-2015, 04:29 PM
I did miss out on a few things, but some of you guys added some confusing information.
Like I said, I will not have completionist or epic litany of the dead. If one day I get the litany, then great. But I don't see it happening anytime in the near future. I'm also not including short term buffs.

Let's see if I got this right now
Charisma:

20 - base
7 - levels
6 - tome
2 - drow enhancement
2 - air savant
2 - water savant
2 - Capstone
2 - ship buff
2 - remnant potion
2 - Yogo potion
2 - Great charisma feats
1 - excaptional
3 - insightful
11 - item
2 - Angelic presence
1 - twist
1 - harper
6 - Exalted angel
74 total charisma

General spell focus:
32 - Charisma mod
10 - base
9 - levels
1 - wiz past life
3 - Exalted angle
1 - Thunderforged staff
1 - ship buff
1 - shadowscale armor
Total of 58 DC

Illusion:
+4 item
62 DC

Enchantment:
+5 item
+2 yellow slot
65 DC

Evocation:
+5 item
+2 yellow slot
+3 past life: Sorcerer
68 DC

Necromancy:
1 - Spell Focus
1 - Greater Spell Focus
1 - epic spell focus
3 - Necromancy specialist twist
6 - Thunderforged staff
2 - yellow augment

72 DC

With those numbers I can see how it works, tell me if I made any errors here.

Iaga
04-12-2015, 06:24 PM
I hear about people who hit over 70 charisma and nearly 70 necro DC I never understand how. This is what I've got so far, for a drow sorcerer (Note: I will not include epic or non epic Litany, because the chances of me getting either are close to zero):

Check out this thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/452512-Sorc-with-88-CHA-self-buffed?)

Chi_Ryu
04-12-2015, 08:23 PM
I did miss out on a few things, but some of you guys added some confusing information.

Well, you were asking how people got high Cha/DCs... :)

Your calculations look pretty good to me now, with the following possibilities for improvement:

Illusion:
+4 item
62 DC

If you can find space on your gear (and if you are wearing lots of Necro IV equipment, you should be able to :) ), you could slot the Topaz of Greater Illusion to make this 64.


Evocation:
+5 item
+2 yellow slot
+3 past life: Sorcerer
68 DC

If you can fit in Spell Focus: Evocation in your build, then you could get +2 from twisting Precise Casting: Evocation from Draconic Incarnation (T2) to make it 70DC

count_spicoli
04-12-2015, 10:17 PM
Sorcerers can do what Wizards do better and faster.

Uh no. Nothing dies faster than instant and a well built wizzy will always be better at this. Not only will your necro dc always be higher you get a bonus energy drain sla thrown in for kicks. As far as nuking a mass hold and energy burst even on a well built wizzy instantly kills whole groups and if any have remnants of health a ruin will finish off the stragglers. Boss dps sure sorc wins but that gives the barbs pally and bards something to do.

count_spicoli
04-12-2015, 10:23 PM
I can only speak from own experience here having played both, but I really found a Sorc in EA does more DPS than a wizard in DI and is much more SP efficient while doing so.

Ya Def more sp effecient. I tend to drink to many pots I will admit that. If that is a concern then sorc is Def better. Speed of killing trash however will always lie with a wizzy.

Wizza
04-13-2015, 01:24 PM
Uh no. Nothing dies faster than instant and a well built wizzy will always be better at this. Not only will your necro dc always be higher you get a bonus energy drain sla thrown in for kicks. As far as nuking a mass hold and energy burst even on a well built wizzy instantly kills whole groups and if any have remnants of health a ruin will finish off the stragglers. Boss dps sure sorc wins but that gives the barbs pally and bards something to do.

A Sorcerer spec'ed in Necro running in EA can instakill as much as reliably as a Wizard in DI, with much faster CD on Wail on every spells in general, a larger pool and the possibility to actually be meaningful in bosses fights.

It's not that I like it but it is the sad truth of Wizards of these latest patches.

Eth
04-14-2015, 01:29 AM
A Sorcerer spec'ed in Necro running in EA can instakill as much as reliably as a Wizard in DI, with much faster CD on Wail on every spells in general, a larger pool and the possibility to actually be meaningful in bosses fights.

It's not that I like it but it is the sad truth of Wizards of these latest patches.

And you get friggin wings!

Hamadov
04-14-2015, 08:57 AM
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/44618320/sorc%20illus%20dc.jpg


+ the cooldown from epic pastlifes sounds fun

Eth
04-14-2015, 09:28 AM
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/44618320/sorc%20illus%20dc.jpg


+ the cooldown from epic pastlifes sounds fun

Is this just some theory calculation that picks illusion because of the twist drom DI?
Why in the world would you go illusion?
Sure you can twist 2.5 more DC, but you end up having only a single spell that even has a DC check.
FoD has the same cooldown as PK, doesn't have a double save against it and you have plenty of other necro spells that are also useful.

With those feats you could also only select 3 metamagics which is kind of questionable, and also no energy burst with those twists...

RTFM
04-14-2015, 09:37 AM
Hello
I am trying to set up my final life for my caster character. I want him to be a DC based sorcerer, main focus is necromancy, secondary evocation and enchantment, when it can work.

I'm trying to understand why you want to put a square peg in a round hole?

If you want to go with Necro DC as your #1 focus as above, go wizard. Your sig even has a pale master build in it that is probably better as a Necro DC caster than any sorc Necro DC you can possibly build.

Chi_Ryu
04-14-2015, 10:15 AM
If you want to go with Necro DC as your #1 focus as above, go wizard.

I, and other posters, respectfully disagree.

I love playing a PM Wizard for the feel of it, but at Epic levels a Sorcerer in EA does not have significantly lower DCs, and has a heck of a lot of other advantages.

Eth
04-14-2015, 10:25 AM
I'm trying to understand why you want to put a square peg in a round hole?

If you want to go with Necro DC as your #1 focus as above, go wizard. Your sig even has a pale master build in it that is probably better as a Necro DC caster than any sorc Necro DC you can possibly build.

Even if you put a focus on necro spells they are only a single aspect. If you look at the actual DCs, there is not much difference between Wizards and Sorcs. Wizards win in Necro DCs, but Sorcs get better general DCs.

Those are the values from Ash's PM guide for a wizard with all the gear and PLs you can have:
Generic to all: +60 (10 base +9 lvl +35 Int +1 wiz pl +2 augment +1 Unique +1 Profane +1 Guild)

Necromancy – 77; (+60 Generic +3 feats +1 Lich +1 PM +1 AM +3 ED +6 Item +2 Deific Focus II)
Enchantment – 68; (+60 Generic +2 feats +1 Bard PL +5 Item)
Transmutation – 66; (+60 Generic +6 Item)
Illusion – 65; (+60 Generic +5 Item)
Evocation – 68; (+60 Generic +6 Item +3 Sorc Pls -1 Unique)
Conjuration – 68; (+60 Generic +5 Item +3 Cleric Pls)



If you take a Sorc with the best gear and the same PLs, you will get those values (I'll also use the same item bonuses):
Generic to all: +62 (10 base +9 lvl +34 Cha +1 wiz pl +2 augment +1 Unique +1 Profane +1 Guild +3 EA)

Necromancy – 73; (+62 Generic +2 feats + 3 ED +6 Item)
Enchantment – 67; (+62 Generic +5 Item)
Transmutation – 68; (+62 Generic +6 Item)
Illusion – 67; (+62 Generic +5 Item)
Evocation – 70; (+62 Generic +6 Item +3 Sorc Pls -1 Unique)
Conjuration – 70; (+62 Generic +5 Item +3 Cleric Pls)

I wouldn't call a winner here, sure wizard wins in necro (and it would be sad if that was not the case), but in the rest the sorc is close or better.

Sorcs also get:
- wings
- more SP
- shorter cooldowns
- wings
- more nuking potential (higher MCL and Spellpower)
- wings
- SLAs that actually do damage
- wings
- Knockdown Immunity or petrification immunity
- faster casting speed
- wings

Here's the breakdown for the charisma mod I used:
20 base
6 tome
7 level
9 enhancements
11 item
3 insight
1 except
2 litany
8 destiny
2 yugo
2 ship
2 feat
1 twist
2 lasting pot
2 completionist
---
78

Such755
04-14-2015, 12:12 PM
I do love playing a wizard, and I love their versatility, but after realizing that a sorcerer can get his necromancy DC so close to a wizard's, to a point where it doesn't even matter, sorcerer has a more attractive attributes to me.
The huge SP Pool, the evocation SLA, the better nuking power, faster caster, it's all there.

Angelic-council
04-14-2015, 06:04 PM
A Sorcerer spec'ed in Necro running in EA can instakill as much as reliably as a Wizard in DI, with much faster CD on Wail on every spells in general, a larger pool and the possibility to actually be meaningful in bosses fights.

It's not that I like it but it is the sad truth of Wizards of these latest patches.

People have no idea how powerful sorcerers could really be... I made Necro sorcerer in exalted angel with evocation 2ndly... I also had Deflic helmet and epic litany, which is another +3 to spell DC. On top of that, I was using quicken and arcane alacrity x3... Let me tell you all.. It's very very fast and smooth kills. The thing is... wail of banshee and circle of death will inflict level damage, and you have reduced CD on those. Even with low necro DC, you can easily kill any monsters on EEs. The real issue is against red boss fights. But pure sorc will receive caster/max caster level bonus, which is amazing. Not to mention, you also get ruin + hellball.

count_spicoli
04-14-2015, 07:02 PM
dont forget that 77 necro dc also comes with a free enervation which is a no fail 1-4 minus on saves. if you really want to get silly you can tack on an energy drain and thats guarenteed no fail on any mob.(pretty expensive)

wizard gets tons of feats. to be honest im still short feats as i couldnt even fit in extend. Insightful reflexes is too good to pass up.

The combo of mass hold sense weakness and energy burst is just too good to pass up. Clears whole room even with less spell power wizzy has. (no way to fit in sense weakness and energy burst on twists if you take the dc's from magistar)

And to be honest i love the switching of spells depending on the quest im running.

I see both sides but for me i prefer the wizzy in draconic.