PDA

View Full Version : whats the point of ransack and =< 1% drop rates?



Godfeast
03-23-2015, 11:22 PM
Ive gone vip, played for two months, bought your expacs (and spent over $100 on a game that is most def not f2p), only to see bugs, unforgiving mechanics, and bad game designs enough to make me wonder why I bothered, but the worst is this inane drop rate on named items with a 7 time ransack timer that blocks you from even trying again for a full week.

I cannot be the only one who thinks this is utter garbage; No other game I can even think of has such a bad system in play for items that are crucial to so many builds and basic game play.

I see now why new players are in rare supply here.

If you've been at the game for years, you have your stuff and its no big deal, but for a new player to need some of these items, it's just mind boggling.

Let's add to it that the fact that a lot of those items are in early raids that are simply never EVER played by anyone and impossible to solo, well, is it any wonder that Turbine is having money issues and DDO heading on a downward slope?

I'm putting this out here so maybe someone somewhere will wake up and actually fix an issue thats obviously long been overlooked.

I love AD&D, but theres only so much I can take and still call what I'm doing fun.

Kompera_Oberon
03-23-2015, 11:40 PM
If you've been at the game for years, you have your stuff and its no big deal, but for a new player to need some of these items, it's just mind boggling.
I hear your frustration, but I think you're making one mistake. You, or any new player, does not need any particular item. You may want it, but you certainly do not need it. Use what you've found and you should do fine. And as a VIP you can always use a few TP to buy some shards and surf the shard exchange for items. Or even the regular AH.

I'm a fairly new player, and I've "farmed" for exactly one item. The Xoriat Forged Blade. I ran that dungeon at least 15 times and it never, ever dropped for me. But that didn't change the fact that the game is really quite easy on Normal and Hard heroic difficulty. Elite runs I avoid unless I'm grouped because trap damage can just kill me outright, and that isn't a lot of fun. But that experience taught me that just because an item is an upgrade to what I'm using that I don't really have to have it to be successful. I expect the next time I have to farm for things might be for Greensteel components or maybe once I hit 20th and start running raids.


Let's add to it that the fact that a lot of those items are in early raids that are simply never EVER played by anyone and impossible to solo [...]
And again I have to disagree with you. If you really mean "raids" then I can't speak to that, because I'm only at 16th level. But if you just mean regular heroic dungeons as your context suggests then again, the game is pretty easy.

But if you are finding it to be difficult you can try to get into a Guild or try to build a list of people who you can run with and beat these places as a team. Decide which dungeons you'd like to run with the time you have for a play session and set up a LFG. There's no guarantee you'll find someone to run it with you, but the odds will never go above 0% if you don't make any effort at all.

Godfeast
03-24-2015, 01:04 AM
To say that you dont need the named gear is the same as saying that you dont "need" to pay for premium/vip content in this game; that's at best a half truth.

I sure could go ahead and replay the same boring ten quests fifty times to level up, but would I really enjoy that?

Nope - I have to pay a subscription or I cant level.

I could go ahead and not be able to post more than a handful of auction transactions, keep more than a handful of money on me, or have any inventory / bank space at all, but would I enjoy that?

Nope - again I have to pay to be able to enjoy the game.

I could go ahead and make the best character possible and not use named gear, but would I be able to do nearly anything worth doing in this game?

Again no.

If you dont have +stat tomes (which anyone not having played for years wont), then your going to need the named items to boost yourself enough to be able to even have a chance (even a small one) of not only getting into any kind of decent group, but most def of being able to take your character anywhere post 20, or even accomplish basic things in game.

This is one game where the difference in having or not having a single point in something will make or break entire builds, the ability to complete questlines, or in general, to be able to play and have fun at ALL.

That's the god's truth, and anyone familiar with this game would be lying to deny it.

In this day and age, having a system setup like DDO is called crippleware - if you dont pay you really dont play.

I got that - I paid.

The fact that in having paid, I am still not able to have even a remotely fair chance at being able to get items that enable REAL play to happen - even though I am MORE than willing to put the time and effort in is what rubs me raw.

I get what your post was about. I'm not here trying to get someone to tell me its ok when it isnt.

I simply posted because I'm hoping that someone in this company might actually look at this and say, "here's a real problem and we need to finally get around to fixing it after all these years or we arent going to keep new players and new cash flow coming in".

Gamers deal with a lot of **** - bugs can be overlooked and other issues ignored, but something this fundamental to being able to have a fair shot at playing after paying is just intolerable; if it wasnt, then why is the majority of the rather small player base composed of long time veterans?

Why arent the new players staying?

Why is someone like me, who has dropped over a hundred bucks (not easily come by) into this game andmonths of playtime about to walk away?

The frustration is there for a reason. It really is.

blerkington
03-24-2015, 01:51 AM
Hi,

Sorry to hear that you are finding this frustrating.

The solution to your problem is to make some friends and have them help you get these items. Working this way multiplies your chances of getting what you want, and then you can help them in return.

I didn't see you mention which items you want or which server you're on. If you can provide that information, the community might be able to help you.

For example, we may be able to help you set up groups for the quest where the item drops, pass it to you if it drops, just give it to you if it's not crazily valuable and/or bound, or suggest alternative gear if there is something as good or better that you don't know about.

Take care.

AlcoArgo
03-24-2015, 01:59 AM
OP,

Named items are supposed to be rare and special. THAT is why they have the ransack mechanic, so that you can't endlessly farm until you get what you want. As a new player, you need to ask yourself why you should be entitled to all of the gear that the vets have accumulated over the years with hours and hours of game playing.

I have been playing since 2006 and I FINALLY managed to put all the ingredients together for an ESOS about 4 months ago. I really wanted one, butI didn't need one and even managed to enjoy the game without it. What's even worse is that I had pulled an SOS before TRing became available and since I was on a wizard and obviously couldn't use it I gave it away. It took me 4 years to find another. What is even worser (yes, worser) is that by the time I completed my ESOS it had been outstripped by thunderforged weapons. Still useful, but no longer the king DPS weapon.

I also have a mule with a cache of +n stat tomes. I will use them if I ever decide to TR one of my parked characters. Then again, I may not, because, unlike your assertion, one point very rarely will make or break a build. If you know you need 17 DEX for TWF, then make sure you have it. If that means giving something up, well, that is life and that is DDO - you can't have everything.

Sometimes you get lucky and pull good loot. Sometimes you don't. There is nothing in this game that is essential to have. Deal with it and stop whining on the forums.

dunklezhan
03-24-2015, 02:59 AM
... ok, so I agree with you for the most part that frustrating grinds are frustrating. I get that. But I found that was the case with every other MMO I've played too, especially WoW, so I'm not really sure what the problem is with DDO. I mean, the mechanics are different but the grind is present in every MMO if you want to take part in it. But DDO, and every other MMO I've played, can be played perfectly well without playing the grind for loot game. I long ago decided to stop caring one iota about named loot and I get by in DDO just fine. Can I solo EE? No idea, I don't even try. I doubt it, though I seem to do alright in groups. Does this mean I can't play and have fun? Well... not that I've noticed. So i'm not sure where you're coming from there unless your definition of fun is 'anything less than the hardest content on the hardest setting is not fun'. In which case... well ok, yeah, you're probably going to need to grind like you've never ground before or have some mad skills.

I'm pretty sure doing top level EE without having done the grind first is intentionally contra-indicated. But everything else below 20? It can be done with old lootgen, never mind the new stuff, because they've never been back and rebalanced - that stuff was doable with a 1d8 screaming of 1d6 bleeding back in the day and its doable with a 1d6 screaming* of 1d6 bleeding from Cannith Crafting now. Over 20, Epic lootgen is better than plenty of high-teens named items.

As for 1 point being able to make or break a build... that really is absolute nonsense, even at EE sorts of levels.

Are you sure you're not mistaking your desire for named loot as a need? I've been there man. How many durks runs? Then I figured out that a plain old wooden club combined with an acid resist potion would let me take out just about any ooze in the game in only a marginally longer time... and entirely stopped fretting about named items in DDO on the understanding that over the course of many characters/lives the stuff would probably drop, and if it doesnt, oh well. Never looked back. Though I admit VoN is getting pretty frustrating. 6 years running it and not a single named item. All the scrolls and shards in the world though, so if that sword of shadows ever does drop... But in any case, I run VoN for XP, not loot. Loot is entirely incidental. Heh. That could be my motto for DDO.

*old lootgen screaming effect was 1d8. Cannith version is 1d6, the 1d8 version was nerfed when they brought in flaming 1, 2, etc.

Kompera_Oberon
03-24-2015, 03:41 AM
To say that you dont need the named gear is the same as saying that you dont "need" to pay for premium/vip content in this game; that's at best a half truth.
No, it's actually the whole truth. Or at least that has been my experience. I told you I'd tried quite a few times for a new Long Sword, and I never got it. So there I was at 10th level using the L4 sword I'd been using for many levels. And a short while later I was running A Relic of a Sovereign Past (http://ddowiki.com/page/A_Relic_of_a_Sovereign_Past) and collected enough Adamantine Ore to have built for me a Nightforge Avenger Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Nightforge_Avenger_Blade). And I'm still using that at L17. Socketed with a Ruby of Impulse 78 (which I did at L16) and with my +5 Enhancement Bonus from Righteous Weapons I also get a +30 Implement Bonus. So my Blade Barriers are really performing for me now.

But the point I'm making here is that I wasn't gimped from 6th through 16th just because I didn't manage to farm up the Xoriat Blade. Far from it.


I sure could go ahead and replay the same boring ten quests fifty times to level up, but would I really enjoy that?
And I'm telling you that you don't have to. It's a choice which is entirely up to you. Run ten different quests for the sheer fun of playing new content to level up, it's a perfectly valid option. I usually run a quest three times, once on Normal, then Hard, then an attempt at Elite. If I can't solo it at Elite I go somewhere else and maybe look for a group to complete the Favor run later.

But the key word here is "option." If you think that you're forced to run content over and over in order to play successfully, you are wrong. And nothing I've mentioned here is paid content*, it's all f2p. So your assertion that you need to be a VIP to play successfully is also wrong.


* Yes, I bought the red augment from the DDO store. I got the TP to pay for it from Favor, which is also free and trickles in over time. I think it cost me something like 140 TP, which is less than most (and maybe all) expansion packs. And it was worth every point!

lyrecono
03-24-2015, 06:27 AM
As someone who spend 80+ runs to get an sos, 4,5 years to get the shard on his main i feel your pain.
One of the many reasons to tr is to bypass that painful grind of gearing up, only to replace it for a painful exp grind....
the thing is: you're playing with different expectations, i run this game with friends (guild) and pugs, i enjoy them for what they are, a waste of time, i picked everything up along the way, if i didn't: no problem, better luck next time.

Currently i'm finishing my third triple completionist and i enjoyed every minute of it but i have never forgotten where i came from all those years ago, washed up on the beach without gear or cash, the game was running for a few months already and people picked me up and dragged me through content, they handed me down some trash loot as they explained the game.
For the last 8 years i have helped newcomers with trash gear, explanations, crafted gear, and of course running quests with them.
The reception people got from other players wasn't always warm (bravery bonuses caused many lfm's to be about elite) and even the friendly ones keep linking loot that make newcomers feel underequipped, after a few months of grinding some feel like they are at the base of a mountain that never ends. And it doesn't.

Turbine however has noticed this (most likely the vip stop questionnaire, heaven forbids they read the forum XD) and has changed the drop rate recently of quest items, sadly not the raids.
Even with the best of gear you can and will die over and over when drunk. (looking at you Charles!), gear is no compensation for a bad play style.

I used to see a lot more friendly people in the harbor and market looking to help people, then again, many people have left and with so little people signing up, the few that do join aren't in the best of places, the reception of newer players could be nicer.

as for the older raids:
my guilds runs them at least once a week for fun and training (8 guildies, 4 pugs that want to learn and need the loot)
Tempest spine, von, DQ i always run each heroic life, the exp is good and (especially for tempest spine) newbie friendly.
the only raid i personally try to skip is CitW.

so raids(at least on the server i play on) are often run.
Why not find a group of like minded and do the raid to enjoy the raid itself instead of the loot?









Ive gone vip, played for two months, bought your expacs (and spent over $100 on a game that is most def not f2p), only to see bugs, unforgiving mechanics, and bad game designs enough to make me wonder why I bothered, but the worst is this inane drop rate on named items with a 7 time ransack timer that blocks you from even trying again for a full week.

I cannot be the only one who thinks this is utter garbage; No other game I can even think of has such a bad system in play for items that are crucial to so many builds and basic game play.

I see now why new players are in rare supply here.

If you've been at the game for years, you have your stuff and its no big deal, but for a new player to need some of these items, it's just mind boggling.

Let's add to it that the fact that a lot of those items are in early raids that are simply never EVER played by anyone and impossible to solo, well, is it any wonder that Turbine is having money issues and DDO heading on a downward slope?

I'm putting this out here so maybe someone somewhere will wake up and actually fix an issue thats obviously long been overlooked.

I love AD&D, but theres only so much I can take and still call what I'm doing fun.

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 06:37 AM
I have been around this game since the very first year. I have been VIP, f2p and premium. I have run multiple accounts and have had as many as 30 characters at a time. I have run almost every quest and raid in the game multiple times and I have seen various top end loot items come and go.

I will say without reservation that the general perspective of the original post is right on target. In a game that is insanely Monty Haul the difficulty in getting premium items is ludicrous. Moreover, the difficulty level of the game is tipped in favor of those who have the premium gear and against those who do not.

Elsewhere is a thread on getting rid of old systems and old loot and I see that thread and this one as two parts of the same problem. Whether we are discussing crafting systems or named loot there is a total lack of consistency throughout DDO. It is irrational for a new player to invest in Cannith crafting because the momentary benefits of Cannith crafted gear is so fleeting that a player will scarcely notice that they do not have such equipment. Additionally, it is a dead end system. Rather than producing the base item for future upgrades as a player pursues the story lines it is simply abandoned and replaced by a different crafting activity.

We have greensteel (which technically pre-dates Cannith crafting even though the minimum level requirements are often higher), unraveling enchantments (from Sentinels of Stormreach), Cauldron of Sora Kell (Lordsmarch quest line), dragontouched (Reaver's Refuge), incredible potential (Amarath), alchemical crafting (Secrets of the Artificers), thunderforged.... And I have not named all of the different "collect and upgrade" systems, which are effectively crafting types and all of which are dead ends.

None of these tie into one another. The rate of character progression is so fast that none of them is really meaningful except the last to be introduced -- whatever that happens to be. Right now it is thunderforged but that will no doubt change just as soon as Elemental Evil is released or Vale is upgraded.

And, OP is correct, to keep up new players do need to acquire the top end loot items. Those items are difficult even for long time players due to the exceedingly small drop rates and excessively high ingredient requirements.

Players complain about the ease of the game but fail to recognize it is easy because the characters are so grossly over powered. Turbine responds by continuing to buff character classes (presumably in the name of balance) and respond to the complaints that the game is too easy by introducing added difficulties.

Lost in this dynamic is the impact on new players who walk into a high magic world with nothing, with access to nothing, and with the entire broken and inconsistent crafting system stacked against them.

For experienced and long time players it might not appear to be a problem. But, in a game where you can reincarnate every 3 days -- and for which by pass timers are available to allow you to reincarnate even more often -- the idea that there is any sort of beginning or middle game is patently false. DDO is all about the rush to the end game and the final, latest, highest level epic quests. Raid by passes, reincarnation by passes, experience stones, XP boosts -- all give lie to the idea that DDO is intended to be savored from beginning to end.

And, the complete and total failure to provide a consistent crafting system -- or even two or three parallel systems run by different entities each leading to end-game worthy gear -- only exacerbates the problem by making the latest top gear effectively compulsory for every character. Doubt this then check the auction house prices on thunderforged gear.

OP is correct and those suggesting that he is not are ignoring the realities of the game.

Lonnbeimnech
03-24-2015, 06:56 AM
1.they do it to make rare items rare. If there was no ransack then the only way to achieve this would be to lower the drop rate even further.

2. raids have a mechanic where on the 20th completion you get a list of items from the raid, maybe not every item, but many of them. That has generally been the way that players get a specific item they were looking for.

3. there is not one named item that is essential for any build.

4. most named items, especially old raid items are outdated and weaker than lootgen of the same level. The few exceptions are items with unique abilities, like the royal guard mask.

5. you can make multiple characters and have each one of them ransack a chest, many named items are either bound to account, bound to character on equip, or not bound at all. Just pass them to the character you wanted to have them.

6. you can make multiple accounts, log in both (or 3 or 6) at once and ransack the chest with all characters, pass the item to the character you wanted to have it.

7. the old raids are not impossible to solo, other than von5 and the pre-raid for titan. A lvl 28 first lifer can easily solo hound or vod or reavers fate or demon queen. Shroud and tod might be a bit tougher, and more time consuming, but then again you can throw up an lfm, someone will want to run these.

8. they recently increased the drop rates on named items, consider yourself lucky.

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 07:09 AM
1.they do it to make rare items rare. If there was no ransack then the only way to achieve this would be to lower the drop rate even further.

Legitimate point. I think it ignores something very important -- that there is, with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions, not a single item in that category currently worth grinding for. Thunderforged is for sale in both the regular and astral shard auction house, is better than every other item from every other system, and upgradeable T1 without ever having to own or run the quest. What is not available through Thunderforged crafting is to be had through 20th rewards with great frequency -- but only in the newer raids/quests.

EllisDee37
03-24-2015, 07:14 AM
items that are crucial to so many builds
[...]
a lot of those items are in early raids that are simply never EVER played by anyone and impossible to soloI can't think of any crucial items from early raids that aren't run anymore and can't be soloed. Could you give an example?

Kompera_Oberon
03-24-2015, 07:57 AM
In a game that is insanely Monty Haul the difficulty in getting premium items is ludicrous. Moreover, the difficulty level of the game is tipped in favor of those who have the premium gear and against those who do not.
You contradict yourself. Which is it? Insanely Monty Haul, or too difficult in favor of people with premium gear?
Because Monty Haul has a meaning which is just about exactly the opposite of it being either difficult to get good gear, or being difficult in general.


[General complaints about the various crafting systems deleted for brevity]

None of these tie into one another. The rate of character progression is so fast that none of them is really meaningful except the last to be introduced -- whatever that happens to be.Again you contradict yourself. So I feel compelled to ask: Which is it? Are the crafting systems unhelpful, or are they simply less useful than they might be because, in your own words, characters progress so fast and the loot they pick up while progressing so fast is so good that the crafting systems simply become much less meaningful?

And if you conclude, as it appears that you have, that the crafting systems are less meaningful than they could or should be, that pretty strongly points to a game where the loot from dungeon chests is better than what you can craft. Which is the exact opposite of an argument that players have to grind for the "top end loot" in order to play successfully.


And, OP is correct, to keep up new players do need to acquire the top end loot items. Those items are difficult even for long time players due to the exceedingly small drop rates and excessively high ingredient requirements.And yet I'm running around doing at-level content with most of the items I'm wearing being a good 8+ levels below my own level. And I have no issues with Normal or Hard content, and the real challenge for me in Elite content isn't the monsters, although the casters can be brutal, it's the traps. I seem to be "keeping up", even with my sub-par gear. And I'm making no claims to be an awesome player. I learn new things almost daily about this game.

So your statement as a very experienced player that players must acquire the top end loot is so far from my own experience as a new player that I simply cannot compare it to how the game plays for me. At all.


Players complain about the ease of the game but fail to recognize it is easy because the characters are so grossly over powered.More contradiction. -Either- the game is easy because characters are overpowered -or- the players need to acquire the top end loot items to keep up. You can't have it both ways.


Lost in this dynamic is the impact on new players who walk into a high magic world with nothing, with access to nothing, and with the entire broken and inconsistent crafting system stacked against them.Access to nothing? Every chest drops magic items. Platinum comes so fast that I'm happily working on my Cannith Crafting even though I could sell the unneeded items I pick up from all those chests on the AH or even to a vendor. But I still get enough platinum from melting them that it just doesn't matter. If I need something a vendor sells, I buy it. If I decide that my Level 5 gloves are becoming an embarrassment (and really, that's only me deciding that I maybe ought to have gloves which aren't able to be worn by a character 12 levels below my own, it doesn't impact my play), I can buy a more level appropriate pair for about 10k plat on the AH. The only things outside of my reach are a very few things players set the prices for on the AH. And as I said if I chose to play the AH market I could have the coins for those items as well. So it's my choice which limits me there, not the game environment.


OP is correct and those suggesting that he is not are ignoring the realities of the game.You contradict yourself on every single point you make and then state that others are ignoring realities? Those words you keep using, I do not think they mean what you think they mean. (http://www.southernfriedscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/inigo-montoya-you-keep-using-that-word-i-dont-think-it-means-what-you-th-3b4b2920-sz625x625-animate.jpg)

Faltout
03-24-2015, 08:11 AM
To say that you dont need the named gear is the same as saying that you dont "need" to pay for premium/vip content in this game; that's at best a half truth.
You don't "need" to pay for premium/vip content in this game. The number of things premiums and vips get compared to free accounts are very limited:
- ability to open elite on first and second life characters.
- Monster Manual I
- in game support
- Astral Shard Auction House
- multiple Auctions
- no platinum cap

Other than those things, free players can level as high as they want without grind and get any premium item they want. But I can see why that is a big problem for you. I've played the game for free for 3 years and I am fine with the content and gear I own. You, on the other hand, just started and want a specific item to drop for you NOW. Well, while it's your choice to pay for the game and get all those conveniences right now, gear does not work in this way. Otherwise, noone would play the game.

Finally, as others have stated, you don't need ANY item. You can play fine with what you get. That way, when you get something good you will rejoice and be happy. If you grind for all the best gear right away then you won't be happy when you get them (because grind) and then everything else will appear as vendor trash for you.

Miow
03-24-2015, 08:52 AM
This statement is just incredible...just wow.

"If you've been at the game for years, you have your stuff and its no big deal, but for a new player to need some of these items, it's just mind boggling."

Btw you don't "need" anything these days character power is strong enough to play with random loot.

Ausdoerrt
03-24-2015, 08:58 AM
And, OP is correct, to keep up new players do need to acquire the top end loot items. Those items are difficult even for long time players due to the exceedingly small drop rates and excessively high ingredient requirements.

Err, back when I was new (2011 or so), the game was much harder and less soloable, and the raid gear actually mattered. That's when high-end pugs were screened by gear and stats, too.

And oh yes I was frustrated because I wanted certain items but couldn't get them easily. But heh, I did just fine without, and eventually got some of the gear I wanted (and still lack the rest).

You don't get everything you want at once. That's the whole point of gear progression. Besides, game's much easier and less gear-dependent now. Try to compare to some games that actually screen by gear score and come back here again :)

Impaqt
03-24-2015, 09:29 AM
Ive gone vip, played for two months, bought your expacs (and spent over $100 on a game that is most def not f2p), only to see bugs, unforgiving mechanics, and bad game designs enough to make me wonder why I bothered, but the worst is this inane drop rate on named items with a 7 time ransack timer that blocks you from even trying again for a full week.

I cannot be the only one who thinks this is utter garbage; No other game I can even think of has such a bad system in play for items that are crucial to so many builds and basic game play.

I see now why new players are in rare supply here.

If you've been at the game for years, you have your stuff and its no big deal, but for a new player to need some of these items, it's just mind boggling.

Let's add to it that the fact that a lot of those items are in early raids that are simply never EVER played by anyone and impossible to solo, well, is it any wonder that Turbine is having money issues and DDO heading on a downward slope?

I'm putting this out here so maybe someone somewhere will wake up and actually fix an issue thats obviously long been overlooked.

I love AD&D, but theres only so much I can take and still call what I'm doing fun.

sorry, there are no "crucial to build" items.

Its WANT that drives people to grind items. not need.

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 09:37 AM
Err, back when I was new (2011 or so), the game was much harder and less soloable, and the raid gear actually mattered.

It was not much harder and less soloable. The only reason you have that perception is because you did not have the gear and experience.


And oh yes I was frustrated because I wanted certain items but couldn't get them easily. But heh, I did just fine without, and eventually got some of the gear I wanted (and still lack the rest).

Please look at current end-game gear and tell me which items really fit this criteria today. For armor and weapons current top of the line is Thunderforged which anyone can own up to T1. For almost everything else it is a matter of getting to a 20th reward list. About the only things that really fit OP's initial observation are old crafted items that don't fit the 20th reward list model.


That's the whole point of gear progression.

There is no point to gear progression in the current game.


Besides, game's much easier and less gear-dependent now.

Not in epic elite -- which remains the definition of DDO end game since its introduction.

Lonnbeimnech
03-24-2015, 09:54 AM
It was not much harder and less soloable. The only reason you have that perception is because you did not have the gear and experience.



Please look at current end-game gear and tell me which items really fit this criteria today. For armor and weapons current top of the line is Thunderforged which anyone can own up to T1. For almost everything else it is a matter of getting to a 20th reward list. About the only things that really fit OP's initial observation are old crafted items that don't fit the 20th reward list model.



There is no point to gear progression in the current game.



Not in epic elite -- which remains the definition of DDO end game since its introduction.
Sounds like he was talking about twink items. What other use could he have for old raid items? I mean the guy has been playing for 2 months, has he even capped yet? I don't know.

Jiirix
03-24-2015, 10:38 AM
DDO's loot system is frustrating for new players; I learn that every time I start on a new server. There should be way more semi decent gear as static rewards like the eveningstar/wheelon/storm horn items on lower levels. I have no problems gearing a fresh epic level toon without any past live resources: Grind some commendations from the eveningstar forest, run a couple of epic vault of the artificers challenges, get some epic relicts from the giant hold for armors and done. After level 27 the high level static loot and epic necro4 items make my day.

But before that? A Pain in the *** if you don’t already have a crafter toon, can’t just buy the things you need from the AH and don’t have a TR cache full of greensteel and raid items. Crafting COULD have been a solution for low level gear if it worked the “strip of effect X from item Y and place it on item Z” way like advertised once. But the current cannith crafting is just mindboggling and grindy for new players. You can try to puzzle a working item setup from the random loot you got, but then the power gap to well geared players is huge. And if you finally found random items with the important major effects you hero needs a lot of secondary effects will be trash and/or double on several items. No fun at all.

For example: the Purple Vibrant Ion Stone has +200 (400 for sorcs and souls) SP on level 5. If you don’t already have one you can try to farm the “bracers of the glacier” on level 13 by running the VOD raid (good luck with that!) Or you have a min level 15 Archmagi item with no other affix.. oh wait.. those don’t drop anymore since the loot got ghostbaned and are pricy legacy items now. As a new player you get the Archmagi effect at level 17+ if you are lucky and probably as a “+1-3 to any junk ability of your choice of the Archmagi” item. Perhaps someone donates a peal of power X so you get at least half the spellpower bonus from level 9 on.

I would like to see static reward option from Krothos until the endgame. Make them similar to the set of items iconics get or the eveningstar sets. Not overpowered but a useful outfit for each combat class (melee, ranged, caster).

PsychoBlonde
03-24-2015, 10:59 AM
You contradict yourself on every single point you make and then state that others are ignoring realities? Those words you keep using, I do not think they mean what you think they mean. (http://www.southernfriedscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/inigo-montoya-you-keep-using-that-word-i-dont-think-it-means-what-you-th-3b4b2920-sz625x625-animate.jpg)

Indeed. I hate grinding gear and love to TR. I also hate using everybody else's builds, so I usually build wonkus stuff that kinda works and also kinda doesn't. And I solo/pug an elite streak from Korthos to epics. I'm too lazy to play gear tetris, so I throw out a lot of stuff when I TR. So I'm almost always starting off a new life with no useful gear available.

The game is tougher if you don't have tomes--those can help a fair bit. But you can buy those on the auction house (up to, say, about +3/4). Yeah, they're generally expensive, but it's not like in the old days where you had to get a new full set of tomes every life. They last forever now.

I'm in a fairly large guild, so I see all kinds from the uber-geared to the (like me) lazy and disinterested, and the only real divisor between us is how well we play, not how much stuff we have. I've had to pull people with far "better" gear out of interesting (and stupid) ways they managed to get themselves killed plenty of times.

I know vets who have been playing for years who are still mediocre at best and resist any attempt you make at helping them improve.

Yes, there are stupid and broken parts to the game. That doesn't mean that the entire game is stupid and broken and that you have "no choice" except to play it X way. I don't, and I do all content on all difficulties.

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 11:23 AM
Sounds like he was talking about twink items. What other use could he have for old raid items? I mean the guy has been playing for 2 months, has he even capped yet? I don't know.

I took the original post to refer to old raid items, aka twink items. It is why I made such a point of referring to that other thread suggesting that the various crafting processes and old gear might deserve a place in the trash heap.

As to capping characters, Turbine's own system is 3 days for a reincarnate and that can be bypassed. With experience stones a player can true reincarnate from L20 without ever adventuring for their first or second life. With a tome of learning, XP potion and access to a guild ship they can jump to ~L18 without ever questing and reach L20 after running IQ on an elite streak (maybe adding the Web of Chaos chain if really pushed). That's 3 lives in about 6 hours of game play on a really bad day.

Epic levels with an XP stone and XP boosts is instant jump to ~L25. Final ~2.5 million XP to cap might take a day of hard work assuming a solid hard or elite streak and smart quest/raid choices. Also would require some cooperation from fellow players or a static group/active guild. Soloing it might take the whole 3 days.

So, in 60 days a person willing to spend the money and do the hard work could probably hit heroic completionist and be well on the way to epic completionist. Even without the monetary investment they could easily epic cap 2 to 3 times if they managed the time commitment.

IMO that is easily achievable but it is also the wrong question to be asking.

The right question is whether grinding for those old raid/twink items has any justification given the current state of the game. Or, considering that a player can purchase pretty much anything needed to make a character workable in all but EE content is the grindfest just a vestige of an outdated version of the game.

Is it time for a game-wide rebuilding to pull the various systems together into a consistent, integrated model that leads by several paths to alternative but equally viable end-game gear choices.

Interestingly enough, there is yet another thread touching upon these things. The current conversation there is on how grinding is defined and whether it is good or not. I suggest that months long grinding no longer fits the play pattern of DDO. Rapid character development, near instantaneous advancement to epic level -- these describe the current game.

We just finished XP bonus days and Otto's Boxes. The entire focus is on jumping directly to epic levels and epic content. Observing that some people like heroic questing ignores the emphasis. The money is in epic questing. That is why the tools are there, the XP stones, the XP elixers (on sale now!), the iconic races.... It even colors the development cycle. ToEE is a L7/L30 quest pack. Is anyone really interested in the L7 version? Maybe from a nostalgia POV, but the player base is going to go directly to the L30 quest. What is the other project in development? Epic Vale, right. Why? Because that is the focus for the entire game -- epic. What, other than class balance debates, is the biggest frustration among players? I see it as the delay in raising level cap to L30.

My point is that whatever value there was in heroic content is gone. Even the old epic quests have no connection to the current game -- unless it is a VoN quest that gives lots of XP so that we can knock out another epic life or round out another epic destiny.

So, OP is correct, there's no value in the grind or low drop rates for those quests. Personally, I'd like to have a couple of those old items for a character or two. But the work to get them is not worth the value they bring to an end game build. And, when people are arguing that random generated loot is equal to or better than the ground out gear it makes the grind even less reasonable.

Best solution is to scrap all of the old system and to reinvent the entire crafting and loot system. That is too disruptive and, to be honest, too difficult given what Turbine's developers have shown themselves capable of over the past few years.

Next best solution is to increase the drop rates by a large factor. Changing from 1-2% to 10-15% drop rates would be the first step.

And, to those who complain that they had to grind so everyone else should grind as well -- which of those items are you presently using? I will tell you that I cannot remember the last time I saw an eSoS being used. CitW weapons -- given away for free in a box if you were here then, sometimes 2 of them if you were lucky due to the way the distribution went. So, really, who is harmed?

It is a different game now. Changing ransack and drop rates makes sense given the current state of the game.

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 12:07 PM
You contradict yourself. Which is it? Insanely Monty Haul, or too difficult in favor of people with premium gear?
Because Monty Haul has a meaning which is just about exactly the opposite of it being either difficult to get good gear, or being difficult in general.

Monty Haul means getting lots of stuff for little or no work. I use it in the context of the ease with which random generated loot can be obtained to provide a character with a surplus of platinum. With a surplus of platinum a character can equip them self to handle every heroic quest on any difficulty and nearly any epic quest on normal or hard difficulties.

Being able to complete epic hard quests is not the measure of a character. It has never been the measure of a character in all of the years of the game. Neither has it been the measure of a character in the forums.

The measure of a character has always been the ability to complete elite quests. Before there was epic the standard was heroic elite. Since the introduction of epic the standard is epic elite. That is the measure of a character.

Random generated loot and auction house purchases will not get you epic elite ready. And the surplus of platinum available does not help matters at all because of the astral shard auction house. The genuinely valuable items end up there so the Monty Haul nature of the game is moot because the most desirable gear does not flow to the players who do not invest deeply with real money.

So, while it may appear to be a contradiction it is not. The game offers too much loot and yet is also too difficult for an under geared character at its highest level. And, because that highest level is the measure of character development the inaccessibility of some types of gear due to low drop rates and inordinate grind does create a problem.


Again you contradict yourself. So I feel compelled to ask: Which is it? Are the crafting systems unhelpful, or are they simply less useful than they might be because, in your own words, characters progress so fast and the loot they pick up while progressing so fast is so good that the crafting systems simply become much less meaningful?

It is both working together. Like the previous observation both seemingly contradictory elements are just opposite sides of the same problem.


And yet I'm running around doing at-level content with most of the items I'm wearing being a good 8+ levels below my own level. And I have no issues with Normal or Hard content, and the real challenge for me in Elite content isn't the monsters, although the casters can be brutal, it's the traps. I seem to be "keeping up", even with my sub-par gear. And I'm making no claims to be an awesome player. I learn new things almost daily about this game.

And most of us are running around doing above level content. The problem here is a myopic view of the game. What you are doing is not typical. I run elite content from level 1 and rapidly out level "at level" quests. I jump into content 2 or more levels above my character level and run those on elite to keep streaks alive. And, I do that because that is where the XP is. If I put my mind to it I can level a character through all of heroic in under 2 days -- although real life interferes most of the time. Epic is not much longer. And, I'm slow. A real power leveler can run L1-L25 in well under a week.

Look beyond yourself.


More contradiction. -Either- the game is easy because characters are overpowered -or- the players need to acquire the top end loot items to keep up. You can't have it both ways.

Actually, yes I can. Once more both statements are true. If you have B then A is true. If you do not have B then A is not true. A is true because of B. There is no contradiction. There is only a complete failure on your part when it comes to understanding.


Access to nothing? Every chest drops magic items. Platinum comes so fast that I'm happily working on my Cannith Crafting even though I could sell the unneeded items I pick up from all those chests on the AH or even to a vendor. But I still get enough platinum from melting them that it just doesn't matter. If I need something a vendor sells, I buy it. If I decide that my Level 5 gloves are becoming an embarrassment (and really, that's only me deciding that I maybe ought to have gloves which aren't able to be worn by a character 12 levels below my own, it doesn't impact my play), I can buy a more level appropriate pair for about 10k plat on the AH. The only things outside of my reach are a very few things players set the prices for on the AH. And as I said if I chose to play the AH market I could have the coins for those items as well. So it's my choice which limits me there, not the game environment.

So, here we have the essence of my first point -- that the game is Monty Haul and offers a surplus of platinum, that players can buy what they want, and (taken with your observation that you play at level normal/hard as your routine) the explanation that the game is still too hard without top end gear. Do you comprehend yet how what I have said is not contradictory but complimentary -- how the two things work together to create the current state of the game?


You contradict yourself on every single point you make and then state that others are ignoring realities? Those words you keep using, I do not think they mean what you think they mean. (http://www.southernfriedscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/inigo-montoya-you-keep-using-that-word-i-dont-think-it-means-what-you-th-3b4b2920-sz625x625-animate.jpg)

While the reference is cute and you no doubt feel clever for using it, it is not I who do not understand.

You have found contradictions because you are having trouble seeing how opposites work together to create a negative environment. The reality of the game is that players do not normally play at level on normal/hard. The reality of the game is that characters are judged not on their ability to complete normal quests but elite quests, not at level quests but above level quests, not heroic quests but elite quests.

There is no at level questing when the end game dungeons are L30. There is no "good enough" when the EE quest scales 20+ levels higher. There is only the best or failure.

My L28 can run any quest in the game on EN or below. He can manage most quests on EH. He's almost entirely worthless even in a group on any of the newer quests/raids on EE. The reason -- almost all of it is gear.

So, those words I keep using -- they mean exactly what they say.

Lonnbeimnech
03-24-2015, 12:16 PM
I took the original post to refer to old raid items, aka twink items. It is why I made such a point of referring to that other thread suggesting that the various crafting processes and old gear might deserve a place in the trash heap.

As to capping characters, Turbine's own system is 3 days for a reincarnate and that can be bypassed. With experience stones a player can true reincarnate from L20 without ever adventuring for their first or second life. With a tome of learning, XP potion and access to a guild ship they can jump to ~L18 without ever questing and reach L20 after running IQ on an elite streak (maybe adding the Web of Chaos chain if really pushed). That's 3 lives in about 6 hours of game play on a really bad day.

Epic levels with an XP stone and XP boosts is instant jump to ~L25. Final ~2.5 million XP to cap might take a day of hard work assuming a solid hard or elite streak and smart quest/raid choices. Also would require some cooperation from fellow players or a static group/active guild. Soloing it might take the whole 3 days.

So, in 60 days a person willing to spend the money and do the hard work could probably hit heroic completionist and be well on the way to epic completionist. Even without the monetary investment they could easily epic cap 2 to 3 times if they managed the time commitment.

IMO that is easily achievable but it is also the wrong question to be asking.

The right question is whether grinding for those old raid/twink items has any justification given the current state of the game. Or, considering that a player can purchase pretty much anything needed to make a character workable in all but EE content is the grindfest just a vestige of an outdated version of the game.

Is it time for a game-wide rebuilding to pull the various systems together into a consistent, integrated model that leads by several paths to alternative but equally viable end-game gear choices.

Interestingly enough, there is yet another thread touching upon these things. The current conversation there is on how grinding is defined and whether it is good or not. I suggest that months long grinding no longer fits the play pattern of DDO. Rapid character development, near instantaneous advancement to epic level -- these describe the current game.

We just finished XP bonus days and Otto's Boxes. The entire focus is on jumping directly to epic levels and epic content. Observing that some people like heroic questing ignores the emphasis. The money is in epic questing. That is why the tools are there, the XP stones, the XP elixers (on sale now!), the iconic races.... It even colors the development cycle. ToEE is a L7/L30 quest pack. Is anyone really interested in the L7 version? Maybe from a nostalgia POV, but the player base is going to go directly to the L30 quest. What is the other project in development? Epic Vale, right. Why? Because that is the focus for the entire game -- epic. What, other than class balance debates, is the biggest frustration among players? I see it as the delay in raising level cap to L30.

My point is that whatever value there was in heroic content is gone. Even the old epic quests have no connection to the current game -- unless it is a VoN quest that gives lots of XP so that we can knock out another epic life or round out another epic destiny.

So, OP is correct, there's no value in the grind or low drop rates for those quests. Personally, I'd like to have a couple of those old items for a character or two. But the work to get them is not worth the value they bring to an end game build. And, when people are arguing that random generated loot is equal to or better than the ground out gear it makes the grind even less reasonable.

Best solution is to scrap all of the old system and to reinvent the entire crafting and loot system. That is too disruptive and, to be honest, too difficult given what Turbine's developers have shown themselves capable of over the past few years.

Next best solution is to increase the drop rates by a large factor. Changing from 1-2% to 10-15% drop rates would be the first step.

And, to those who complain that they had to grind so everyone else should grind as well -- which of those items are you presently using? I will tell you that I cannot remember the last time I saw an eSoS being used. CitW weapons -- given away for free in a box if you were here then, sometimes 2 of them if you were lucky due to the way the distribution went. So, really, who is harmed?

It is a different game now. Changing ransack and drop rates makes sense given the current state of the game.

I don't see a new player spending $1,000 on otto boxes to race to completionist. I don't think they would be nearly as successful doing that as a vet would, unless they had a vet walking them through the entire process. They wouldn't even know where the quests were, let alone know how to zerg them, or even which ones were worth doing for xp. The tr process alone would slow them down quite a bit, not knowing which heart of wood to get. You are talking about if a vet to the game decided to blow a paycheck on getting an alt completionist asap, not how a new player would play.

As far as the gear, there is no need to update any of it. Not every piece of gear can be best in slot, some of it is going to be junk. Much of that junk is named. Oh well. And increasing the drop rate make them more desirable, how?

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 12:41 PM
I don't see a new player spending $1,000 on otto boxes to race to completionist. I don't think they would be nearly as successful doing that as a vet would, unless they had a vet walking them through the entire process. They wouldn't even know where the quests were, let alone know how to zerg them, or even which ones were worth doing for xp. The tr process alone would slow them down quite a bit, not knowing which heart of wood to get. You are talking about if a vet to the game decided to blow a paycheck on getting an alt completionist asap, not how a new player would play.

Not saying that it did happen or that it does happen, just saying that it can happen and that, regardless, it is the wrong question.


As far as the gear, there is no need to update any of it. Not every piece of gear can be best in slot, some of it is going to be junk. Much of that junk is named. Oh well. And increasing the drop rate make them more desirable, how?

The gear and its utility is exactly the right question.

The model that Turbine has used since the beginning is that the loot from the latest release is the best and most desirable. This drives player participation and, in recent years, quest pack sales.

What is lost by not keeping old gear competitive is any reason to run old content. That is a present reality. While there are some people who will post insisting that they run everything on a regular basis, the reality is that those players are few and far between. At any hour on any server look to see how many of the old quests have LFMs running. It is rare unless it is a high XP quest. The reason for running old content in the current game is to get the XP (and, rarely, the favor).

When it is the favor it is one and done.

Now, not all of the old loot is junk -- just most of it. If it is junk then why run the quests at all? They give mediocre XP for the most part, don't really give anything beneficial in terms of favor rewards. Understand now why they do not get run?

For those very few still desirable items -- say an eSoS for those few builds that could use it -- the abysmally small drop rate is scarcely an incentive. No, people run eVoN for the XP not for the loot.

Bringing the loot into a coherent system that makes it relevant will revitalize the game. Making the loot more accessible to players will generate greater interest. Allowing players to be more comparable sooner will encourage new players. All of those are up sides that do not exist at this time.

Not that anyone but the players care. I still think Turbine is trying to kill the game and that WB only retains it in order to have a write-off against its profitable investments.

AbyssalMage
03-24-2015, 12:50 PM
Ive gone vip, played for two months, bought your expacs (and spent over $100 on a game that is most def not f2p), only to see bugs, unforgiving mechanics, and bad game designs enough to make me wonder why I bothered, but the worst is this inane drop rate on named items with a 7 time ransack timer that blocks you from even trying again for a full week.
This is probably a hold over from when the game was pre-epic (U15?). Even then, I wouldn't consider the Named drop rate so low that you can't get what you want with average dedication. There are a few exceptions but most of them are not mandatory. Actually, U15-U22 has probably been the worst itemization periods and not because of drop rate percentages, although these compounded it.


I cannot be the only one who thinks this is utter garbage; No other game I can even think of has such a bad system in play for items that are crucial to so many builds and basic game play.
Well before the great "Ghostbaining" fiasco, itemization wasn't horrible. You could find equivalent or superior items in random generated loot. Many "end game builds" had a mixture of Named, Greensteel, and Random loot. That is no longer the case which is quite sad.


see now why new players are in rare supply here.
That would be marketing. Then again, I don't see WoW commercials anymore which I am happy about.


If you've been at the game for years, you have your stuff and its no big deal, but for a new player to need some of these items, it's just mind boggling.
ER/TR'd twice now on one server, once on two other servers (4 times total) and haven't gotten all of the "end game gear" but didn't prevent me from playing.

Could I personally solo EE? No, because none of the builds I created were designed for EE.


Let's add to it that the fact that a lot of those items are in early raids that are simply never EVER played by anyone and impossible to solo, well, is it any wonder that Turbine is having money issues and DDO heading on a downward slope?
Name one early raid you can't solo that has "must have loot."
Currently, the must have loot comes out of Epic Necro IV thanks to every piece having 2 Aug slots. Combining it with Deathwyrm/HH comprises the majority of every end game build I have seen.

In a way, this is one direction DDO has finally copied from other MMO's by obsoleting older content with newer content forcing players to buy the newest content or become obsolete. Ironically, it was why I left my last MMO (and no, I am not leaving anytime soon :p).


I'm putting this out here so maybe someone somewhere will wake up and actually fix an issue thats obviously long been overlooked.

I love AD&D, but theres only so much I can take and still call what I'm doing fun.
Well, I am still having fun, even if I don't get the named items I've been farming don't show up.
Current list:

Green Ioun Stone out of Shadow of a Doubt (Not a must have btw but I would like it).
Goggles from White Dragon in Tor w/+3 Insight Bonus (This is one, of many, loot design mistakes, imho) which is BiS for most min/max builds.
Epee from The Missing
Ring of Spell Storing (kinda, but not really) from Desert

Lonnbeimnech
03-24-2015, 12:53 PM
Not saying that it did happen or that it does happen, just saying that it can happen and that, regardless, it is the wrong question.



The gear and its utility is exactly the right question.

The model that Turbine has used since the beginning is that the loot from the latest release is the best and most desirable. This drives player participation and, in recent years, quest pack sales.

What is lost by not keeping old gear competitive is any reason to run old content. That is a present reality. While there are some people who will post insisting that they run everything on a regular basis, the reality is that those players are few and far between. At any hour on any server look to see how many of the old quests have LFMs running. It is rare unless it is a high XP quest. The reason for running old content in the current game is to get the XP (and, rarely, the favor).

When it is the favor it is one and done.

Now, not all of the old loot is junk -- just most of it. If it is junk then why run the quests at all? They give mediocre XP for the most part, don't really give anything beneficial in terms of favor rewards. Understand now why they do not get run?

For those very few still desirable items -- say an eSoS for those few builds that could use it -- the abysmally small drop rate is scarcely an incentive. No, people run eVoN for the XP not for the loot.

Bringing the loot into a coherent system that makes it relevant will revitalize the game. Making the loot more accessible to players will generate greater interest. Allowing players to be more comparable sooner will encourage new players. All of those are up sides that do not exist at this time.

Not that anyone but the players care. I still think Turbine is trying to kill the game and that WB only retains it in order to have a write-off against its profitable investments.
It is also a massive undertaking to update every item in the game and somehow make all of it desirable. It would still only be twink gear, so not worth bothering with on a capped toon, not worth farming on a tr project since you could cap and tr again in the time it takes to get one piece of gear that would be useful for some of those levels. Not worth bothering with on a first lifer since they really would outlevel the items quick.


As far as increasing the drop rate. Fast forward 1 month or 2, now everyone has their esos. NOW what is the incentive to farm von6? For example.

AbyssalMage
03-24-2015, 01:02 PM
The model that Turbine has used since the beginning is that the loot from the latest release is the best and most desirable. This drives player participation and, in recent years, quest pack sales.
Actually this is fairly recent. Players who transferred from other MMO's expect that new content = best gear. Turbine listened to them instead of keeping their business model which brought these players to DDO. It's actually the industry standard to have such a marketing strategy. Too bad, it destroys games. DDO was refreshing in that Turbine did everything their own way and was successful despite the industry saying it wasn't possible.

Maybe they are working back in that direction now that level 30 cap is coming "Soon(TM)." They have lots of loot to retool once that happens and a random itemization list to overhaul if that is the case. Easily 2+ updates to get it correct. Its a "wait and see" for me and most importantly, "enjoy the ride."

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 01:19 PM
It is also a massive undertaking to update every item in the game and somehow make all of it desirable. It would still only be twink gear, so not worth bothering with on a capped toon, not worth farming on a tr project since you could cap and tr again in the time it takes to get one piece of gear that would be useful for some of those levels. Not worth bothering with on a first lifer since they really would outlevel the items quick.

IIRC I've already touched on this. Not only would it be massive but, IMO, also well outside of the capabilities of DDO's current crop of developers. So, let's recognize that the idea of a comprehensive gear pass that restructured the end loot to fit into multi-path crafting systems and led to end-game worthy loot is almost entirely wishful thinking.

But, I would not just work on a system to produce twink gear. I would look at the different crafting strategies and develop full story lines around them. House Cannith would have a story line that starts with low level gear. That gear would become an ingredient to mid level gear. That, in turn, high level heroic gear. And, in turn, that gear would turn into low, medium and high level epic gear. I would follow a similar path with giant crafted gear and that would be separate from dragon crafted or quori crafted gear. All told there might be 5 or 6 different paths each leading from low level heroic thru high level epic gear development.

And then, I would make the different gear sets mostly incompatible with one another and tied to favor. One pale master might equip themselves with dragon crafted gear and gain some particular edge while a different pale master might equip themselves with Cannith crafted gear in order to obtain some different advantage. Characters would be end-game capable but also different from one another depending on which crafting patron supported them (or which master they served).

So, there would be no twink gear per se -- each step along the story line would enable the gear to update as the character advanced.


As far as increasing the drop rate. Fast forward 1 month or 2, now everyone has their esos. NOW what is the incentive to farm von6? For example.

Alright, this is the more likely scenario. Turbine is most likely to do nothing at all but, if something were to happen, this is the one that is more probable.

I would suggest that everyone will never have their eSoS because the game population is not stagnant. There are always players dropping out and players joining in. So I would argue that while the initial rate of VoN questing would drop it would be no worse than the current rate and, for lower XP quests, likely higher.

VoN is a bit of an exception since 3 of the better epic XP quests are in the VoN chain.

As to the other quests, drop rates did increase but without any noticeable increase in LFMs. That suggests that even as twink gear the drop rates are still too low to incentivize the player base.

And, presuming that the gear is twink gear anyway, what difference would it make if it had a higher drop rate or became a 5th/10th/20th completion guarantee? We have that model in a lot of quests. How would it matter if it were applied to all of the quests/raids that still have old style upgradable loot systems?

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 01:31 PM
Actually this is fairly recent.

No, it has pretty much been this way since DDO went from a module system to an update system with every new quest release. Definitely much longer being as described than not.

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 01:45 PM
Name one early raid you can't solo that has "must have loot."

The majority of players cannot solo Shroud. Nobody can solo Vault of Night. Depending on build and gear (gee, isn't this thread about gear) I would doubt most people can solo Reaver's Fate.

The "must have loot" part is somewhat subjective. Given the number of LFMs I see for Shroud I'm guessing players still find items that they want to craft. I'm not aware of many people that would turn down an eSoS presuming they are running a melee-centric build. And a Head of Good Fortune is still a useful trinket for many characters.

Without getting into a piddling contest on what constitutes "must have loot" I think it is fairly obvious that there are raids that the preponderance of the community cannot solo.

count_spicoli
03-24-2015, 02:21 PM
Ha ha is this dude for real? In a time when loot is easier to get in ddo then it ever was. The time of every 3 completions named items will drop in reward list and lower settings reap the same rewards as more difficult ones. OP must have come from neverwinter or Diablo or something where the game is spoon fed. Earn your stuff like the rest of us did. I

Fluffib
03-24-2015, 03:15 PM
If you dont have +stat tomes (which anyone not having played for years wont), then your going to need the named items to boost yourself enough to be able to even have a chance (even a small one) of not only getting into any kind of decent group, but most def of being able to take your character anywhere post 20, or even accomplish basic things in game.



I have never seen a heroic leveling group reject a player because they didn't have named items or stat tomes, and I have never heard anyone else say they couldn't get to level 21 without named items or stat tomes. When I first started playing this game 8 months ago, I made it to level 21 without stat tomes, without named items, without knowing half the quests or what an "epic" quest was or that there was a world beyond Stormreach. Keep trying, I think you'll make it to level 21 just fine and get into a few groups along the way.

Kompera_Oberon
03-24-2015, 03:30 PM
I run elite content from level 1 and rapidly out level "at level" quests. I jump into content 2 or more levels above my character level and run those on elite to keep streaks alive. And, I do that because that is where the XP is. If I put my mind to it I can level a character through all of heroic in under 2 days -- although real life interferes most of the time. Epic is not much longer. And, I'm slow. A real power leveler can run L1-L25 in well under a week.

Look beyond yourself.
Take your own advice. A f2p player can't even get into an Elite level dungeon without running it twice before. Once on Normal and then once on Hard.

If your entire position is based on the premise that everyone play the game as a VIP or have prior lives already under their belt as a new player, you've already lost any argument about looking beyond yourself.


So, here we have the essence of my first point -- that the game is Monty Haul and offers a surplus of platinum, that players can buy what they want, and (taken with your observation that you play at level normal/hard as your routine) the explanation that the game is still too hard without top end gear. Do you comprehend yet how what I have said is not contradictory but complimentary -- how the two things work together to create the current state of the game?No, all I see is you reiterating a completely contradictory position. Repetition doesn't make you any less silly for arguing both sides of the coin at the same time. Either the game is Monty Haul and gives too much plat and items, making play easy, or play is too hard. Those are not "complementary" at all, they are contradictory.


The reality of the game is that players do not normally play at level on normal/hard. The reality of the game is that characters are judged not on their ability to complete normal quests but elite quests, not at level quests but above level quests, not heroic quests but elite quests.And now you are interjecting a completely subjective "judgement" into the discussion.

I believe that the reality of the game is that most people solo. I've seen that in the lack of takers to my LFG posts, in the comments of my Guild mates, and in the comments by players on this forum. If you are playing solo you are only being judged by yourself.

If you are only talking about people running raids at Epic levels, I can't contradict you since I'm only L17. But the number of posts I see here and on Youtube showing people solo Epic content suggests that things might not be so different at Epic levels.

I do expect to have to group for Epic content. I don't expect to be "judged" by anyone for my gear at that point. Getting the gear is the only reason for being there, besides the experience of running the dungeon. Anyone who expects a fresh L20 to already have that gear is simply jaded from their many past lives.

And if I have to grind those raids for my gear, that's just a part of the game. But no one has to grind for gear from L1-L17 at least, and probably not through L20.


My L28 can run any quest in the game on EN or below. He can manage most quests on EH. He's almost entirely worthless even in a group on any of the newer quests/raids on EE. The reason -- almost all of it is gear.
Well, thank you for agreeing with me like that! You've just stated that you have no troubles with 99% of the content, and you only have issues with that last 1% because you haven't put in the time or had the luck to find the gear you need. None of which contradicts anything I've said at all: That my experience so far is that I can run any Normal or Hard dungeon with no problems at all and without any need to grind for gear, and only need to skip Elite content due to traps. Which I suppose better gear might ameliorate.

I think this discussion is done once you make a concession like that. Thanks for your time!

kanordog
03-24-2015, 03:31 PM
If you've been at the game for years, you have your stuff and its no big deal, but for a new player to need some of these items, it's just mind boggling.



No, You don't.
I already had 3 ranger lives when at the 6th life I finally pulled a silver longbow. (Not counting other 1st, 2nd and 3rd life alts that never pulled that bow!)
I haven't used it yet and I never needed it, I got by easily without it.

On the same life (again, with help of alts) I finally made my first epic (shard+seal+scroll) item! An Epic Chimera's fang! Totally outdated but I still love it because I needed 6 lives (plus alts) to get it!

And I will run a melee arti life (possibly after my 40th life) when I finally will pull this:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:The_Disciplinator



OP,



I have been playing since 2006 and I FINALLY managed to put all the ingredients together for an ESOS about 4 months ago. I really wanted one, but I didn't need one and even managed to enjoy the game without it.

Congrats man!

AbyssalMage
03-24-2015, 04:17 PM
The majority of players cannot solo Shroud. Nobody can solo Vault of Night. Depending on build and gear (gee, isn't this thread about gear) I would doubt most people can solo Reaver's Fate.
With the exception of eSoS, none of the gear that drops in any of those raids are "Must Haves" which references the OP's message that they contain such items. Even, eSoS has become more of a novelty, mythical if you will, item.

Shroud can be solo'd (with very specific builds) none of which requires Greensteel items. Reavers Fate can be solo'd by most, thanks mostly to ED's and puzzle solvers.


The "must have loot" part is somewhat subjective. Given the number of LFMs I see for Shroud I'm guessing players still find items that they want to craft. I'm not aware of many people that would turn down an eSoS presuming they are running a melee-centric build. And a Head of Good Fortune is still a useful trinket for many characters.
I agree its very subjective and the process of TR'ing increases the likelihood that these items remain relevant for awhile. But the definition for "relevant" and "must have" are very distinct. "Must have" describes any item/feat/enhancement/twist that is needed in order to provide recognizable contribution to the group in the most challenging content, which is currently EE Necro IV, HH, Deathwyrm, and to a (alot) lesser extent 3BC. It (currently) also has a disproportionate effect on DC casters than melee with Ranged now falling somewhere in the middle.


Without getting into a piddling contest on what constitutes "must have loot" I think it is fairly obvious that there are raids that the preponderance of the community cannot solo.
There are many raids the community cannot solo, do to "team" dynamics built into them to prevent such a scenario from occurring. The argument was that older Raids contain items that are "must have" status which just isn't true; "end game," if you define that as level 28 (and "Soon(TM)" to be level 30) content.

Dreppo
03-24-2015, 04:22 PM
And I will run a melee arti life (possibly after my 40th life) when I finally will pull this:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:The_Disciplinator

Disciplinator is actually a fairly easy item to get, since it drops in VON6 (the most frequently run raid in the game for obvious reasons). It's BtC, so usually people will put it up for roll if they can't use it themselves.

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 04:22 PM
Take your own advice. A f2p player can't even get into an Elite level dungeon without running it twice before. Once on Normal and then once on Hard.

So, you missed entirely the part in the original post where he mentions being VIP didn't you. It was the first words of the original message:


Ive gone vip

But, never mind that. Let's not let reality or facts interfere with your skewed view of the truth. Let's not let the abundance of build posts that start out with "I'm building for normal content and need your advice" demonstrate the complete totality of your misperception. Instead, let's just continue with the insular perspective that because you choose to under perform that this is the highest ambition of others and that any aspiration to do better should meet with failure because you fail.

The standard is epic elite. Gear is required. The ease of any other setting is irrelevant to any discussion of gear or build unless explicitly stated. Even when explicitly stated the norm is to respond that such gear or build is not epic elite worthy and would be better by making specific adjustments.

That is reality on the forums. It is reality in game. You can live in your insular world of make-believe if you choose, but that does not make it reality.

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 04:30 PM
With the exception of eSoS....

I said I'm not getting into a piddling contest on what is or isn't "must have loot." How you define it or how I define it can be miles apart and we will both be right because we are defining it for ourselves.

What is relevant is what OP might consider must have loot.

As to what can or cannot be soloed, when we start talking grossly over level and specific builds it starts to shift the dynamics of the conversation. You are right to note that raids that have group required mechanisms don't really belong in the conversation -- but it was not unfair to include them since you did not define parameters.

Similarly, it isn't unfair of you to mention specific builds.

But, I'm certain that the intent in the discussion is to discuss what pretty much any character could or could not do. And, in that regard, it is highly misleading to suggest that most or all early raids can be soloed.

AbyssalMage
03-24-2015, 04:42 PM
No, it has pretty much been this way since DDO went from a module system to an update system with every new quest release. Definitely much longer being as described than not.
Been playing DDO for awhile; not as long as some, longer than others. No expansion from U10-U15 had BiS items for any of the builds being posted at the time (except quiver and eSoS). People would debate what should go in each slot and it invariably came down to player preference because gear was "better" uniformed. U15 broke that tradition and it has remained so until fairly recently (U21) when they reverted back to the original loots system which has infuriated the "elite" players. On a nostalgia note, didn't realize they only had the crappy loot from U15 through U21, I guess I better apologize to the item developers.

Sorry Item Developers, I have been so unhappy with itemization I didn't even realize you did something that was beneficial and give you credit for it. Thank you :)

p.s. We need to work on the power creep of named items/itemization now.

FestusHood
03-24-2015, 04:51 PM
Well, I am still having fun, even if I don't get the named items I've been farming don't show up.
Current list:

Green Ioun Stone out of Shadow of a Doubt (Not a must have btw but I would like it).
Goggles from White Dragon in Tor w/+3 Insight Bonus (This is one, of many, loot design mistakes, imho) which is BiS for most min/max builds.
Epee from The Missing
Ring of Spell Storing (kinda, but not really) from Desert


One of these is not like the others. The turbulent epee from Missing has to have at least a 50% drop rate. Are you hitting the right chest? It's that one in the hideout, surrounded by water.

FestusHood
03-24-2015, 05:14 PM
The standard is epic elite. Gear is required. The ease of any other setting is irrelevant to any discussion of gear or build unless explicitly stated. Even when explicitly stated the norm is to respond that such gear or build is not epic elite worthy and would be better by making specific adjustments.

That is reality on the forums. It is reality in game. You can live in your insular world of make-believe if you choose, but that does not make it reality.

Like the Op, you massively overestimate the difference between best in slot gear and pretty good gear as to how it affects your actual game performance.

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 05:14 PM
Been playing DDO for awhile; not as long as some, longer than others.

Don't let join dates mislead you. I've mentioned elsewhere having multiple alternate accounts. Some date back to within 6 months of DDO's public release.

What is significant is your observation that U10-U15 (6 updates) did not have BIS items. I guess that ignores U0-U9 (10 updates) and U16-U24 (9 updates). I suppose that the reason for this is the same insistence shown in other posts of defining for everyone what "must have loot" actually is.

In any case, my contention is that what drives interest with each new release is the new loot. Whether it is actually "must have" or BIS is somewhat moot. What is not moot is that desire for the loot is what drives players to run the quests. And, substantially this remains true for all releases -- including the 6 that you chose to exempt.

It is not an homage to players coming from other systems -- it has always been a routine part of DDO.

Kompera_Oberon
03-24-2015, 05:26 PM
So, you missed entirely the part in the original post where he mentions being VIP didn't you. It was the first words of the original message:No, I didn't miss that. What I might have missed was any connection between being a VIP player and additional difficulty. You have woven this argument that VIP players can rush to Epic level in just a few days, and maybe that's true. But don't then try to also claim that the game requires particular gear to be played. That's the contradiction you keep repeating, and it is utterly illogical.


Let's not let the abundance of build posts that start out with "I'm building for normal content and need your advice" demonstrate the complete totality of your misperception. Instead, let's just continue with the insular perspective that because you choose to under perform that this is the highest ambition of others and that any aspiration to do better should meet with failure because you fail.
Let's not ignore them. But then don't turn around and try to argue that the default is running Elite content. Because, and this is becoming quite a trend for you, that's a complete self-contradiction.

And then let's also not ignore the good half dozen or so experienced player who have responded to the OP in this very thread and have told him that grinding for gear is in no way a requirement.

Using subjective terms such as "under perform" or "you fail" or "The standard is epic elite" doesn't make any points. All it does is demonstrate your own personal bias. Many people have contradicted you, right here in this thread. My own play experience contradicts you. And your own words contradict you when you literally agree with me by stating that 99% of content is not gear dependent, and that only that last 1% offers you, personally, any challenge at all due to not having the very best gear the game has to offer.

*Ahem* "You can live in your insular world of make-believe if you choose, but that does not make it reality."

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 05:27 PM
Like the Op, you massively overestimate the difference between best in slot gear and pretty good gear as to how it affects your actual game performance.

No, I have not. I have pretty good gear. It is nowhere near BIS gear. And, the performance difference is very evident when questing alongside someone who has best in slot.

Put a different way, I will sometimes comment in a build thread about lowering expectations when a poster lists BIS gear and posts video or screen shots of a character's performance -- because I know that players without the gear are not going to come close to the results being posted. I know that because I have followed those build plans and developed characters with pretty good gear and those characters do not come close.

No, I have a very good grasp on the difference between pretty good and BIS.

What I will acknowledge and what I would argue for is AbyssalMage's point about a period when there was no true BIS item. IMO more builds and play styles are available when there is no BIS or when BIS is variable based on player choices. As I said elsewhere, my best case scenario would be a gear crafting system that followed multiple paths from low/medium/high heroic through low/medium/high epic and resulted in different look characters differentiated by which patron/master they chose.

But, in the current game BIS is vastly superior to really good and there are few slots where strong debate will occur about what item should go there.

FestusHood
03-24-2015, 05:48 PM
No, I have not. I have pretty good gear. It is nowhere near BIS gear. And, the performance difference is very evident when questing alongside someone who has best in slot.

Put a different way, I will sometimes comment in a build thread about lowering expectations when a poster lists BIS gear and posts video or screen shots of a character's performance -- because I know that players without the gear are not going to come close to the results being posted. I know that because I have followed those build plans and developed characters with pretty good gear and those characters do not come close.

No, I have a very good grasp on the difference between pretty good and BIS.

What I will acknowledge and what I would argue for is AbyssalMage's point about a period when there was no true BIS item. IMO more builds and play styles are available when there is no BIS or when BIS is variable based on player choices. As I said elsewhere, my best case scenario would be a gear crafting system that followed multiple paths from low/medium/high heroic through low/medium/high epic and resulted in different look characters differentiated by which patron/master they chose.

But, in the current game BIS is vastly superior to really good and there are few slots where strong debate will occur about what item should go there.

The main strength of most of the necro gear is that it consolidates many abilities onto single slots. Ghostly, Deadly, doublestrike, etc. all works exactly the same regardless of where it is slotted. People like to make out that the difference between a +10 stat item and a +11 stat item is huge. It isn't.

As far as seeing a difference in performance, you're excluding the fact that the person you are observing is a different player. It would be interesting to see if you could swap gear with them, and if the performances would completely reverse.

Uska
03-24-2015, 05:49 PM
Um. Ransack is good encourages running of more quests and no don't need any particular gear of any kind. You may want something to,try to make yourself better but you don't need it. As to raids being impossible to solo sadly that's not true many peope do solo some of them sadly heck I even did the shroud once myself on hard at level.

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 06:01 PM
No, I didn't miss that. What I might have missed was any connection between being a VIP player and additional difficulty. You have woven this argument that VIP players can rush to Epic level in just a few days, and maybe that's true. But don't then try to also claim that the game requires particular gear to be played. That's the contradiction you keep repeating, and it is utterly illogical.

You know, if you keep refusing to read the caveats then you are going to keep missing the point. So, let's remake the point for you.

For the expenditure of real money and the purchase of Turbine Points a brand new free-to-play player can advance a never played character from L1 to L20 instantaneously. We just ended almost a week long sale of Otto's Box in the Turbine Store. Reincarnate and that same character now can open any content on hard.

For an additional purchase and with sufficient XP boost that same free-to-play player can advance the same never played character on a second life from L1 to L20 again instantly. Reincarnate and that same character now can open any content on elite.

Continuing to spend real money and with sufficient XP boost that same not yet played character can jump a third life from L1 to L18. The character will be within 800k XP of L20. Look up best XP quests in the Wiki and run a combination of Vale, Web of Chaos and Inspired Quarter quests and jump to L20 in a matter of hours.

I'm not just weaving an argument for you -- I'm telling you that it can be done. For an investment of under $200 any person can jump to epic content on a 36 point character build and have played less than a dozen quests.


But then don't turn around and try to argue that the default is running Elite content.

Alright, you tell me just how many LFMs are out there for normal or hard quest settings. The default is elite and that is the default standard for builds and gear choices.


And then let's also not ignore the good half dozen or so experienced player who have responded to the OP in this very thread and have told him that grinding for gear is in no way a requirement.

If a person wants to be content running normal/hard then they are right. What they are having trouble acknowledging is that if they are typically running elite content they are either in groups that are well geared or they already have the gear themselves. Check with them and see how many are willing to run an epic elite Thunderpeak or Deathwyrm without being in their primary destiny and using only loot gen gear.

I hear them, but they are not being entirely honest.


And your own words contradict you when you literally agree with me by stating that 99% of content is not gear dependent, and that only that last 1% offers you, personally, any challenge at all due to not having the very best gear the game has to offer.

Let's clear this up. I do not agree with you. I appreciate you trying to make it seem that way. but I've said nothing of the sort. Most quests have 4 difficulty settings. That means nearly 25% of all quests are elite. And, running elite quests at or below level is in fact gear dependent -- which is what I have consistently said. The addition of greater challenge only makes that near 25% of content even more gear dependent than it already was.

Then again, since you admit to routinely running quests only at level on normal/hard you really do not know the challenge involved. I manage precisely because at L1 I immediately leave Korthos and regear before entering any dungeon. I rely on gear. it is the only way that I blow through content while remaining below level. It is gear that enables this.


Using subjective terms such as "under perform" or "you fail" or "The standard is epic elite" doesn't make any points.

You described how you quest. You bragged about running at level on normal/hard. If you do not want to acknowledge that such an approach does not equate to success that is fine. You do get to define your own success. But, you should understand that within forum discussions running at level normal/hard is under performing, a failure and substandard. It is not the goal state of most forum posters and it certainly is not the parameter that guides most advice that is given.

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 06:10 PM
The main strength of most of the necro gear is that it consolidates many abilities onto single slots. Ghostly, Deadly, doublestrike, etc. all works exactly the same regardless of where it is slotted. People like to make out that the difference between a +10 stat item and a +11 stat item is huge. It isn't.

As far as seeing a difference in performance, you're excluding the fact that the person you are observing is a different player. It would be interesting to see if you could swap gear with them, and if the performances would completely reverse.

While all of what you say has some truth to it, it also conveniently ignores the bigger truth -- which is that by consolidation slots are freed for other things. If I put ghostly and doublestrike and stat increase all in one slot that frees 1 and maybe 2 slots for something else.

As to the value of +1 more stat -- the forums have had many discussions about the value of just 1 more point of whatever. In general, the forums disagree with you. And, for some builds where the increase literally means beating a DC or not it is absolutely critical. I remember a long ago assassin build thread....

So, while there is some truth in what you say it is misleading because it ignores the larger truths.

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 06:25 PM
Um. Ransack is good encourages running of more quests and no don't need any particular gear of any kind. You may want something to,try to make yourself better but you don't need it. As to raids being impossible to solo sadly that's not true many peope do solo some of them sadly heck I even did the shroud once myself on hard at level.

Maybe ransack is good, maybe it isn't. I don't think it affect too many players any longer. Most players run a subset of available quests based on personal preferences and run only a limited number of times so that quest and chest ransack is never really a factor.

Ransack is only a factor for quests where I farm ingredients or base materials. If I am set on an epic Chimera's Fang then ransack creates a problem for me. If I invest in raid timer bypasses because I am set on eSoS then ransack creates a problem for me. Considering that it is being argued in this thread that neither is really end-game worthy I'm not sure how ransack or low drop rates encourage running of any quests.

But, more importantly, if that is what I am set on then I'm probably not too highly motivated to run anything else until I have what I perceive as being a key item for my character. So, rather than encouraging more questing I would argue that it actually restricts questing since I am more likely to log off in frustration than I am to go do a quest I'm really not too keen on.

As to soloing raids, that's a good story. Did you do it on a character that had little or no top end gear? Did you do it when ED bugs allowed heroic level characters to use epic level abilities?

My argument is not that raids cannot be soloed but rather that a) it isn't that typical and b) those that do it are some combination of 1) highly experienced players or running characters that are 2) over level, 3) exceptionally built, or 4) exceptionally geared. And, I would argue that in most cases it is some or all of those four things.

Chi_Ryu
03-24-2015, 07:02 PM
I don't see a new player spending $1,000 on otto boxes to race to completionist.

Icywave did. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/435303-Ultimate-Completionist-Icywave-87-past-life-feats?


The majority of players cannot solo Shroud. Nobody can solo Vault of Night. Depending on build and gear (gee, isn't this thread about gear) I would doubt most people can solo Reaver's Fate.

It is irrelevant whether the "majority" of people can solo Shroud and Reaver's Fate (especially when you go on to set the standard we are discussing as Epic Elite, which I strongly doubt is the difficulty that most people in the game cannot and do not play at) - and to be frank, neither are a super hard challenge at level 28 with a decent Epic Destiny. The hardest bit of Shroud (on Normal) is splitting up the lieutenents in Part 2, and for Reaver's Fate it is not being bounced about by the air elementals whilst solving the puzzle.

Similarly, there is no "must have" loot from Vault of Night. Sure the Epic Sword of Shadow is nice, but nowhere near a necessity for EE play, same with Kundarak Delving Boots (which are a nice source of FOM from levels 9-24, but trivially replaced from late Heroic onwards if you invest in UMD). Almost everything else is junk, especially at Epic level.

The OP also drastically underestimates drop rates, aside from Mythic items there is very little in the game with a <1% drop rate.

Ayseifn
03-24-2015, 07:21 PM
Maybe ransack is good, maybe it isn't. I don't think it affect too many players any longer. Most players run a subset of available quests based on personal preferences and run only a limited number of times so that quest and chest ransack is never really a factor.

Ransack is only a factor for quests where I farm ingredients or base materials. If I am set on an epic Chimera's Fang then ransack creates a problem for me. If I invest in raid timer bypasses because I am set on eSoS then ransack creates a problem for me. Considering that it is being argued in this thread that neither is really end-game worthy I'm not sure how ransack or low drop rates encourage running of any quests.

But, more importantly, if that is what I am set on then I'm probably not too highly motivated to run anything else until I have what I perceive as being a key item for my character. So, rather than encouraging more questing I would argue that it actually restricts questing since I am more likely to log off in frustration than I am to go do a quest I'm really not too keen on.

As to soloing raids, that's a good story. Did you do it on a character that had little or no top end gear? Did you do it when ED bugs allowed heroic level characters to use epic level abilities?

My argument is not that raids cannot be soloed but rather that a) it isn't that typical and b) those that do it are some combination of 1) highly experienced players or running characters that are 2) over level, 3) exceptionally built, or 4) exceptionally geared. And, I would argue that in most cases it is some or all of those four things.

Low drop rates encourage running quests because it takes longer to get said item, once you get said item you never need to run that quest ever again and that's a huge problem right now. The recent change to a ton of quests where loot drops like candy just made all those quests obsolete after a few ransacks.

What really sucks about the loot grind is when you have 99% of the things you want and it's just that last widget you need, if I still want 20 or so items I can rotate through quests and not burn out on that one single quest. There's a lot of people now in that 99% category because of how easy it is to get BiS items.

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 07:32 PM
The OP also drastically underestimates drop rates, aside from Mythic items there is very little in the game with a <1% drop rate.

Searching for historic data, SoS drop rate was calculated to be ~5% per raid group and ~.8% per individual on normal, ~1% per individual on hard, and ~1.25% per individual on elite. Dragon's Eye was calculated at ~2% per raid group which made it ~.3%/~.4%/~.5% per individual.

It is worth noting which drop rates were increased and which were not in U24. When everything is said and done a <1% generalization is pretty close.

Uska
03-24-2015, 07:37 PM
Maybe ransack is good, maybe it isn't. I don't think it affect too many players any longer. Most players run a subset of available quests based on personal preferences and run only a limited number of times so that quest and chest ransack is never really a factor.

Ransack is only a factor for quests where I farm ingredients or base materials. If I am set on an epic Chimera's Fang then ransack creates a problem for me. If I invest in raid timer bypasses because I am set on eSoS then ransack creates a problem for me. Considering that it is being argued in this thread that neither is really end-game worthy I'm not sure how ransack or low drop rates encourage running of any quests.

But, more importantly, if that is what I am set on then I'm probably not too highly motivated to run anything else until I have what I perceive as being a key item for my character. So, rather than encouraging more questing I would argue that it actually restricts questing since I am more likely to log off in frustration than I am to go do a quest I'm really not too keen on.

As to soloing raids, that's a good story. Did you do it on a character that had little or no top end gear? Did you do it when ED bugs allowed heroic level characters to use epic level abilities?

My argument is not that raids cannot be soloed but rather that a) it isn't that typical and b) those that do it are some combination of 1) highly experienced players or running characters that are 2) over level, 3) exceptionally built, or 4) exceptionally geared. And, I would argue that in most cases it is some or all of those four things.

I did it on a first life character so Ed's were't a factor and his gear was **** and it was only hard and no Harry didn't bugout. I admit it was a palemaster and the hardest part was getting the sub bosses apart to kill them and I have tried since and can't repeat it but I hate solo play anyways

Uska
03-24-2015, 07:39 PM
Searching for historic data, SoS drop rate was calculated to be ~5% per raid group and ~.8% per individual on normal, ~1% per individual on hard, and ~1.25% per individual on elite. Dragon's Eye was calculated at ~2% per raid group which made it ~.3%/~.4%/~.5% per individual.

It is worth noting which drop rates were increased and which were not in U24. When everything is said and done a <1% generalization is pretty close.

Sounds right on SoS as that's the one raid I do frequently on epic and rarely do we see the items for it

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 07:41 PM
Low drop rates encourage running quests because it takes longer to get said item, once you get said item you never need to run that quest ever again and that's a huge problem right now.

I can see the rationale in that argument. I would counter that if the gear is obsolete, as many posters have suggested, then there isn't any reason to run those quests anyway.

So, I would suggest that the problem isn't that people would get the items and be done -- the problem is that there's not much reason to get the item anyway and making it hard is just an added reason to never run the quest.

I will reiterate that VoN seems to be the one exception. Even accepting that eSoS is obsolete and that the number of people farming it is very small, the quest continues to be run because the XP payout is so high.

This suggests the solution to quests not being run is to boost the XP payout. Drop rates and ransack at this point appear to have very little to do with a decision about what quest to run.

Loot is the driver when quests are new. XP is the driver when quests are old. And, for as long as the old loot is just twink gear and is, as posters have stated, only equivalent or perhaps less powerful than random generated loot, the only thing that will drive players to the abandoned/avoided quests is a substantial revamping of the XP that is offered.

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 07:43 PM
I did it on a first life character so Ed's were't a factor and his gear was **** and it was only hard and no Harry didn't bugout. I admit it was a palemaster and the hardest part was getting the sub bosses apart to kill them and I have tried since and can't repeat it but I hate solo play anyways

Fair enough. :D

Sort of helps my point though rather than that of people talking about how normal it is for people to solo raids. :)

Thrudh
03-24-2015, 07:44 PM
I could go ahead and make the best character possible and not use named gear, but would I be able to do nearly anything worth doing in this game?

Yes... I have characters that I have built recently that have no raid gear, and they can complete any content in the game.


If you dont have +stat tomes (which anyone not having played for years wont), then your going to need the named items to boost yourself enough to be able to even have a chance (even a small one) of not only getting into any kind of decent group, but most def of being able to take your character anywhere post 20, or even accomplish basic things in game.

This is one game where the difference in having or not having a single point in something will make or break entire builds, the ability to complete questlines, or in general, to be able to play and have fun at ALL.

That's the god's truth, and anyone familiar with this game would be lying to deny it.

Sorry, but you are 100% wrong here... The game is very easy... You only need 60% of max character power to complete any quests, even quests on epic elite. Missing a dozen points in something won't stop you from doing well.

blerkington
03-24-2015, 07:58 PM
Sorry, but you are 100% wrong here... The game is very easy... You only need 60% of max character power to complete any quests, even quests on epic elite. Missing a dozen points in something won't stop you from doing well.

Hi,

If the OP actually started when his join date says he did, he would be fairly new to the game and lacking the experience that makes things easy for veterans. He may still still be at the point where every little bit of gear does help.

It's always a bad moment when we see veterans lecturing newer players on how easy the game is, when the new person lacks the wealth, build knowledge, and quest experience that vets take for granted.

Thanks.

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 07:59 PM
You only need 60% of max character power to complete any quests, even quests on epic elite.

I'm sorry but that is a gross misrepresentation of the truth. Unless you are running in a group and that group is doing most of the heavy work a character with only 60% of max character power isn't going to get the job done.

Of course, epic elite is misleading since there are some really low level epic elite quests. But if you are talking base L28+ quests on EE my experience is that such talk is pure bravado.

Like I've said before in this thread, I have a pretty well geared character and he gets humbled in the higher level EE quests. The only way he can run them is in a group and he is mostly useless in those groups.

And, I would own up to my incompetence as a builder and player if it were not that I can run the same quests on EH with little or no sense of uselessness. The notion that 60% of character power is sufficient is complete bluster and egregiously false and misleading.

Ayseifn
03-24-2015, 07:59 PM
I can see the rationale in that argument. I would counter that if the gear is obsolete, as many posters have suggested, then there isn't any reason to run those quests anyway.

So, I would suggest that the problem isn't that people would get the items and be done -- the problem is that there's not much reason to get the item anyway and making it hard is just an added reason to never run the quest.

I will reiterate that VoN seems to be the one exception. Even accepting that eSoS is obsolete and that the number of people farming it is very small, the quest continues to be run because the XP payout is so high.

This suggests the solution to quests not being run is to boost the XP payout. Drop rates and ransack at this point appear to have very little to do with a decision about what quest to run.

Loot is the driver when quests are new. XP is the driver when quests are old. And, for as long as the old loot is just twink gear and is, as posters have stated, only equivalent or perhaps less powerful than random generated loot, the only thing that will drive players to the abandoned/avoided quests is a substantial revamping of the XP that is offered.

The obsolescing of gear is a recent problem, it's gotten so bad that I don't even run new quests for loot that has decent odds of being outdated in 3 months. It doesn't help that the game is so easy that I don't feel the need to properly gear up either.

Loot can be a driver for a very long time as you noticed with VoN to some extent but DQ was the king of it. Torcs have been great since inception and also rare, people still want RoSSs and from when DQ went epic(it was the first epic pack) until around MotU people still wanted things from there and so still ran those quests. Upping the XP in abandoned content is fine but upping drop rates has ramifications just like obsoleting it does, even less incentive to run it.

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 08:10 PM
Upping the XP in abandoned content is fine but upping drop rates has ramifications just like obsoleting it does, even less incentive to run it.

What is less than zero? Since the incentive now is at or near 0% explain how upping drop rates would materially change anything?

But, more than that, I think your perspective is incorrect. I think upped drop rates would have the initial effect of increasing popularity as people sought out gear. Why do you thing drop rates were increased in certain quest lines? I was not to discourage people from playing them.

Upped XP is how you keep people playing quest lines. First you incentivize them with increased drop rates and then you reward them with increased XP.

Again, VoN is an exception because it has both things going for it -- still desired loot in eSoS AND good XP. Halve the XP and see just how fast people stop running that raid.

BTW, let's not fixate on some arcane formula for XP calculation. XP is whatever the DM sets it at. Nothing stops Turbine from setting XP to whatever value is most effective for enticing players to choose specific quests or quest lines.

Ayseifn
03-24-2015, 08:23 PM
But, more than that, I think your perspective is incorrect. I think upped drop rates would have the initial effect of increasing popularity as people sought out gear. Why do you thing drop rates were increased in certain quest lines? I was not to discourage people from playing them.


Initially yes but then it's quickly back to where it was or worse. DQ lasted years and then when updated to epic lasted years more because the loot was a combination of rare and good. On the flip side is 3BC, run through once to have a look, ransack a quest or two to get all the items and then never set foot in there again. 3BC also added heal amp gloves and FOM boots that're better than claw gloves and VoN boots, lessening a reason to run red fens and VoN.

Vulkoorex
03-24-2015, 10:26 PM
Make it so that there is no ransack penalty for VIPs. An extra perk for subscribers.

And no...I'm not VIP. Premium...for now.

Vulkoorex
03-24-2015, 10:39 PM
Ransacking penalty

F2P: keep it as is..8 I think.
Premium: raise to 10.
VIP: no ransack penalty.

Pretty good incentive to go VIP.

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 10:44 PM
Make it so that there is no ransack penalty for VIPs. An extra perk for subscribers.

There is some merit to that thought but I think it misses something.

We are about to get a new update. How many of you have been on Lamannia running the new content? You are aware that some subset of the player population has done just that, right?

You are aware that many of those players are going to ransack the quest within the first 48 hours (using stockpiled raid timer bypasses if necessary). If you pay attention to any release you will see that as a regular pattern. And, you'll notice that it happens mostly in guild and well established raid groups involving the same group of players.

What you will also notice is that somewhere between 48 and 72 hours after release there will be a down time and a hot fix. What you might not notice is that there will be a noticeable decrease in drop rate afterwards.

Now, I don't know if that is just forum legend or if it really happens. What I do know is that there will be postings complaining about it as there have been following almost every other release.

Essentially what happens is the haves get and the have nots don't. It has always been that way -- maybe more openly so since Lamannia went to a public server.

So, I don't think that ransack penalty even matters. I don't think it influences any player behavior at all -- at least not in a positive and game enriching way. All that it does is create negativism directed at DDO over a mechanism that delays and hinders players from completing items -- items that most people in this thread dismiss as obsolete and irrelevant anyway.

No, the better answer is to just remove ransack. The alternative is to increase drop rates so that ransack becomes a negligible factor. I prefer the alternative. But either or both is probably appropriate at this point in the game.

Thrudh
03-24-2015, 11:17 PM
This statement is just incredible...just wow.

"If you've been at the game for years, you have your stuff and its no big deal, but for a new player to need some of these items, it's just mind boggling."

Btw you don't "need" anything these days character power is strong enough to play with random loot.

I don't twink at all between levels 1-11... I just use whatever I find in chests... I do admit I pull out greensteel at 11 and 12, but then I use that until 20...

Random loot today is quite powerful...

Thrudh
03-24-2015, 11:22 PM
The standard is epic elite. Gear is required. The ease of any other setting is irrelevant to any discussion of gear or build unless explicitly stated. Even when explicitly stated the norm is to respond that such gear or build is not epic elite worthy and would be better by making specific adjustments.

That is reality on the forums. It is reality in game. You can live in your insular world of make-believe if you choose, but that does not make it reality.

Oh, we're only talking about epic elite... So ignore all of heroic, and all epic hard quests... got it... That's reality for everyone, you say? I don't think that's what the OP was talking about... but okay...

Yeah you might have to get some decent gear before you play epic elite.... That seems reasonable, I think... Or do you think new players (we're talking about new players, right?) should be able to walk into epic elite on their first life??

If that IS what you're saying, Epic Orchard has some pretty good drop rates, and most of that stuff is best in slot...

Thrudh
03-24-2015, 11:26 PM
Hi,

If the OP actually started when his join date says he did, he would be fairly new to the game and lacking the experience that makes things easy for veterans. He may still still be at the point where every little bit of gear does help.

It's always a bad moment when we see veterans lecturing newer players on how easy the game is, when the new person lacks the wealth, build knowledge, and quest experience that vets take for granted.

Thanks.

He may need practice, but he doesn't need hard-to-grind gear... Random loot is quite good... There's no need to grind for anything in the heroic levels.

And there's nothing wrong with running normal or hard your first time in a quest... In fact i encourage new players to solo new quests on normal or hard... Much more enjoyable to go slow your first time in a quest.

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 11:26 PM
Even low drop rates of around 1.5% you will get in a few months, if you really want it, by blowing through a dungeon with a capped farming character.

A very good post and well said. I would just suggest that the "in a few months" doesn't really fit the paradigm for most people. In that same period of time a character can be running epic content and well on the way to end game -- or even capped and reincarnated several times if a player is more active. Waiting around several months for something, particularly something that (thus far) virtually everyone here has deemed obsolete, seems, well, stupid.

I'm not sure why we think doing stupid stuff is an acceptable part of the game.

Thrudh
03-24-2015, 11:29 PM
It's always a bad moment when we see veterans lecturing newer players on how easy the game is, when the new person lacks the wealth, build knowledge, and quest experience that vets take for granted.

Thanks.

It's also a bad moment when newer players lecture veterans....


This is one game where the difference in having or not having a single point in something will make or break entire builds, the ability to complete questlines, or in general, to be able to play and have fun at ALL.

That's the god's truth, and anyone familiar with this game would be lying to deny it.

I am not lying when I say having a +4 item instead of a +5 item will not make or break my build, or stop me from completing questlines, or in general stop me from playing or having fun at ALL.

Thrudh
03-24-2015, 11:32 PM
I'm sorry but that is a gross misrepresentation of the truth. Unless you are running in a group and that group is doing most of the heavy work a character with only 60% of max character power isn't going to get the job done.

Of course, epic elite is misleading since there are some really low level epic elite quests. But if you are talking base L28+ quests on EE my experience is that such talk is pure bravado.

Like I've said before in this thread, I have a pretty well geared character and he gets humbled in the higher level EE quests. The only way he can run them is in a group and he is mostly useless in those groups.

And, I would own up to my incompetence as a builder and player if it were not that I can run the same quests on EH with little or no sense of uselessness. The notion that 60% of character power is sufficient is complete bluster and egregiously false and misleading.

Nope, I'm correct... Yes, you need to be in a group, but you don't need to be carried... Who said the benchmark is soloing epic elite? If you can't solo end-game epic elite, your character is worthless and it's impossible to advance or have fun? That's bogus.

A group of decent players with decent gear can beat any epic elite quest in the game... There doesn't need be any uber-elite in that group carrying everyone either.

That is 100% true. Fact. Testify!

Bluegirl_Two
03-24-2015, 11:44 PM
Oh, we're only talking about epic elite...

I know you want to argue. I know that is your way. But stop being misleading and understand the truth of what I am saying.

When a build gets posted the discussion is not about how it is designed for heroic normal content -- the discussion is about how it will do in epic elite.

When a player expressly states that they don't really care about elite but that they have a build that they want to try and they would like critiques -- the critiques invariably roll over to "make this change so that you can run epic elites" and do so even though the initial post explicitly states that the OP doesn't care.

The standard in the forums is epic elite. That is a fact irrespective of whether you encourage players to solo on normal or how much fun it is to slow down and not worry about how much XP per minute is being earned.

OP complained about drop rates and ransack. He has a valid complaint. The gear isn't really needed for normal questing, not really for hard questing. So what could the motivation be to get the gear?

Just about everyone concedes that the gear that will be crafted is already obsolete, yet the OP still complained about the difficulty of getting the gear. Just what will it be used for? For flower sniffing on heroic normal?

The mindset of the game, of the forums, is elite, elite, elite. Like I have said already in this thread, go look at the LFM listings. How many are for normal level questing? The norm is elite -- pure and simple.

A new player coming in, one who is VIP, seeing the preponderance of questing being done on elite, reading the builds which are dominated by what performs best in epic elite -- it takes almost no effort to become aware that everything about the game is elite oriented.

The fact that you have to encourage players to solo on normal just further shows this.

So, yes, when talking about quests and builds and gear the only thing that really matters is epic elite. How to get there, what intermediate gear is needed to make the journey as fast and efficient as possible.

And, Turbine is right there on board with that idea. Why do you think they offered a nearly week long sale on Otto's Boxes? Why XP bonus days? Why sales on heart woods and XP potions? Why did those follow one another sequentially these past several days?

It is because Turbine know that the player focus is on epic content too. So Turbine's push is to epic and the player's push is to elite. And that means, yes, the only thing that matters is epic elite.

That pervades, guides and informs nearly everything about the game -- including the loyal opposition that keeps trying to convince the world that it is alright to just run normal or hard.

Thrudh
03-24-2015, 11:59 PM
The standard in the forums is epic elite.


The mindset of the game, of the forums, is elite, elite, elite. Like I have said already in this thread, go look at the LFM listings. How many are for normal level questing? The norm is elite -- pure and simple.

The LFMs I see are 90% heroic elite (which is very different from epic elite), and epic hard.

Your statements have no basis in fact. Well, the forums may be about epic elite, but the forums are also full of bitter bored people who apparently play a game they hate for 6 hours a day...

The actual game is not about epic elite... Like you said, look at the LFMs...

One does not need named gear to complete heroic elite or epic hard. Random loot is quite good nowadays.

A new player should not expect to be able to solo epic elite 2 months after starting... Do you think really they should be able to? Should they be able to get all best-in-slot gear after 2 months of playing? Because that is what the OP is asking for. He is quite upset that he doesn't have all the best gear after playing for 2 months and spending $100.

Seriously... look at the LFMs... You are 100% wrong that the game is only about epic elite... And you are seriously wrong that a player needs to have an absolutely maxed out character to do well in epic elite. I do just fine with only a few past lives, and decent gear (but not best in slot) and usually playing semi-flavor builds, not focusing 100% on DPS.

Bluegirl_Two
03-25-2015, 12:05 AM
Who said the benchmark is soloing epic elite? If you can't solo end-game epic elite, your character is worthless and it's impossible to advance or have fun?

That is not what anyone has said. It is not what I said. Nor did I say that a character is worthless or impossible to have fun with.

What I did say was that well geared characters are noticeably less capable than best in slot geared characters when running epic elite -- particularly the more difficult epic elites. And what I did say is that a 60% of max power character is not going to contribute very much in those more difficult epic elites.

When facing 150k hit point foes in a group pumping out near 1k damage per hit the guy adding only 600 damage isn't making much of an impact. When the other characters are benefiting at +100 from heals the guy getting only +60 is a drain on party resources. When other party members are pushing 1500 hp the guy with only 900 represents a great risk. When others are mitigating 80% of incoming damage the guy only mitigating 48% takes constant care.

The notion that the most difficult epic elites can be easily handled by a party of 60 percenters is laughable. And the notion that one or two in a raid actually contribute significantly to success is false -- the real work is done by the other party members.

Now, I don't really object to that situation. In fact, it is often a necessary situation to get some piece of gear or to earn favor. And, it is even sometimes a prelude to the character obtaining the needed BIS items to move from a 60% contributor to a 100% contributor.

But let's not pretend that everything is so easy that all that is needed is to wake up one morning and decide you want to run top level EE.

And, keep in mind that this is the new player forum. Even if by some stretch those of us with abundant experience could achieve that task it is not a likely outcome for new players. If it were there would be no need for you to encourage them to run content on normal to learn the ropes.

Ayseifn
03-25-2015, 12:11 AM
A very good post and well said. I would just suggest that the "in a few months" doesn't really fit the paradigm for most people. In that same period of time a character can be running epic content and well on the way to end game -- or even capped and reincarnated several times if a player is more active. Waiting around several months for something, particularly something that (thus far) virtually everyone here has deemed obsolete, seems, well, stupid.

I'm not sure why we think doing stupid stuff is an acceptable part of the game.

You don't have to wait around though, just hit that quest again a few times next life if you want to TR or if it's a raid and you want to go for a 20th then do some ETRs while waiting. It livens up the TR process a bit too, because instead of gravitating to the best XP quests you can instead go do quests that have loot you want.

I just did an ETR that got me a whopping 11 HP, doing stupid stuff in MMOs is par for the course.

Bluegirl_Two
03-25-2015, 12:12 AM
The LFMs I see are 90% heroic elite (which is very different from epic elite), and epic hard.

Heroic elite, yes.

Epic hard -- for some of the most difficult epics and for speed runs when gear farming.

Epic elite -- for all of the easier epics and for XP farming.

Epic normal -- only for the very hardest of epic elites.

And, even with that break down the most common epic LFMs are for epic elite -- normally something like "daily XP run" or VoN5/6 or sagas.

Now, maybe we're on different servers but the clear majority over time really is EE for epic quests just as it is HE for heroic quests.

Bluegirl_Two
03-25-2015, 12:19 AM
You don't have to wait around though, just hit that quest again a few times next life if you want to TR or if it's a raid and you want to go for a 20th then do some ETRs while waiting. It livens up the TR process a bit too, because instead of gravitating to the best XP quests you can instead go do quests that have loot you want.

I just did an ETR that got me a whopping 11 HP, doing stupid stuff in MMOs is par for the course.

This is the point in the conversation where my parents would say, "If everyone jumped off the bridge would you jump too?"

Stupid stuff is stupid whether it is par for the course or not. And trying to pretend it is less stupid by spreading it around more doesn't make it any better.

Sort of like trying to fool my parents into thinking I'd eaten my peas by smashing them up a bit and spreading them around my dinner plate. Pretending it is something that it is not doesn't make it any better either.

Thrudh
03-25-2015, 12:19 AM
The notion that the most difficult epic elites can be easily handled by a party of 60 percenters is laughable.

Nope, it's easy... You may have to actually use tactics, instead of just zerging face-first into a ton of mobs, but a group of decent players (not great), using decent gear (not great), will still complete that epic elite quest, and probably have a lot more fun than the 97% DPS min/max guys who are really only playing as fast as they can so they can grind out 120 hours of exp or gear for another 1% that they really don't need.

The devs have done a decent job with the game... Most systems are front-loaded... You get 80% of the benefit of heroic past-lives with just 3-4 of them... But the option is there for min/max OCD types to grind out 30+ lives for that last 20%... Even though the highest level quests don't require that level of power to complete.

Same with gear. You can get good enough gear to complete any quest in the game fairly easily... You can also grind for the best gear that is 20% better... but you don't NEED to...


But let's not pretend that everything is so easy that all that is needed is to wake up one morning and decide you want to run top level EE.

Note that now you're talking about "top-level" EE... lower-level epic elites don't count, right??

So now we're focusing only on the top 1% of the game, and everything is broken because a new player can't play at that level after 2 months? Is that a design flaw that Turbine has made?

Thrudh
03-25-2015, 12:20 AM
This is the point in the conversation where my parents would say, "If everyone jumped off the bridge would you jump too?"

Heck, yeah... If EVERYONE is jumping off the bridge, I'm guessing there's a gasoline truck on fire heading my way, and I'm jumping too... :)

Thrudh
03-25-2015, 12:27 AM
Now, maybe we're on different servers but the clear majority over time really is EE for epic quests just as it is HE for heroic quests.

(1) Heroic elite is 60% plus of LFMs... Heroic elite is very different from epic elite... Or are you saying one needs top-notch gear and multiple past lives to handle heroic elite... Is that your position?
(2) Ton of epic hard or even epic normal for xp (you see a lot of wiz-king or spies or VON 3 on epic elite?)
(3) Ton of epic hard for gear (almost every epic Orchard LFM is epic hard).
(4) The main epic elites I see are for sagas, and those are the lower-level "easy" epic elites (Eveningstar, GH)

I would say on Thelanis, the LFM panel is barely 2% "top-level epic elite", and 10% "lower-level epic elite".

So your statement that the game is 100% about "epic elite" is just plain wrong. These are facts.. You are the one who said look at the LFM panel as proof that the game is 100% about epic elite.

Vulkoorex
03-25-2015, 12:40 AM
Uh...topic is ransack.

Bluegirl_Two
03-25-2015, 12:48 AM
(1) Heroic elite is 60% plus of LFMs... Heroic elite is very different from epic elite... Or are you saying one needs top-notch gear and multiple past lives to handle heroic elite... Is that your position?
(2) Ton of epic hard or even epic normal for xp (you see a lot of wiz-king or spies or VON 3 on epic elite?)
(3) Ton of epic hard for gear (almost every epic Orchard LFM is epic hard).
(4) The main epic elites I see are for sagas, and those are the lower-level "easy" epic elites (Eveningstar, GH)

I would say on Thelanis, the LFM panel is barely 2% "top-level epic elite", and 10% "lower-level epic elite".

So your statement that the game is 100% about "epic elite" is just plain wrong. These are facts.. You are the one who said look at the LFM panel as proof that the game is 100% about epic elite.

Haven't even discussed past lives, but thanks for extending the conversation.

Will say that from a new player's perspective having gear appears necessary for heroic elite. My position is that if you want to elite streak while below quest level that best or near best gear is very useful. Running heroic elite at level (character level = normal quest level + 2) is much easier when you have respectable gear. But, I don't normally bother worrying about gear in heroic except when running below quest level (character level < normal quest level + 2).

Most Wiz-King, Spies, VoN3 I see is EE, yes. Virtually all VoN5/6 is EE with rarely an EH 5 with EE 6. Since most of the time I can solo Wiz-King/Spies/VoN3 on EN or EH (and my impression is that most others can as well) it sort of seems unnecessary to drop below EE.

Orchard is typically EH and that is because of the risk/reward factor and time.

Sagas are typically as you describe, EE and mostly GH but significant amounts of easier Eveningstar.

That is on Orien.

My observation about epic elite is that it is the focus. 100% would be an exaggeration and I really don't recall saying that. But it is the focus and the measuring stick of success.

Bluegirl_Two
03-25-2015, 01:05 AM
Uh...topic is ransack.

True, but derails are pretty normal and, in this case, the derail does have a bearing on the topic.

But, like most topics that contain more than a page or two, you will have to filter through the side bars and derails to find the discussion that is on topic.

This is so common that I have considered starting a topic with the specific request that all responses stay non-argumentative and on topic just to see how long it took for them to become argumentative and off topic.

Frankly, I don't think it can be done on any subject that is highly emotive. And that ignores personalities. There are a few of us who are going to argue blue just because the other person argued red. Except for fairly simple topics that always has the potential to develop into a wild chase down a spurious rabbit hole.

Ransack and drop rate is highly charged. People have trouble understanding why it should matter, why waiting months for useless gear should bother players, why players shouldn't be forced to endure the same pain and agony that they went through to get things, etc. And, they have trouble seeing the interrelationships among various discussions or how one aspect of the game affects and informs a different aspect.

In this case the presumptive goal state of being able to compete favorably in elite content affects and informs about why ransack and drop rates matter to people. Without understanding the underlying drivers within the game it is difficult to understand why a player finds ransack or drop rates to be an inhibition or to grasp why they perceive those to be factors in players not choosing DDO.

Understanding that best gear at various points along a character's life greatly enables elite level questing and compensates for build choices and player experience helps explain why new players farm for gear that experienced players view as obsolete. Understanding that Turbine actively pushes players towards epic content through blatant actions such as Otto's Boxes, XP bonus days, XP boosts, reduced prices of heart woods, reincarnation timers and even iconic characters helps define the existing culture that new players encounter and further informs us about why elite and epic questing is seen as the standard measure of character and player success.

So, while separately these things are indeed derails taken within the context of the discussion they are in fact valuable insights into why ransack and drop rates are so objectionable and such emotive subjects.

Bluegirl_Two
03-25-2015, 01:33 AM
Note that now you're talking about "top-level" EE... lower-level epic elites don't count, right??

I've always been talking about end game, so in that sense lower level EE don't count. That is right.

Go back and read some of my other replies -- including to you. There is a material difference between a base 20 quest run on EE and a base 24 quest on EE. And there is even more of a difference when the base quest level is 28.

And when I am looking at a character and planning their eventual "final" look I'm not using what is needed to run low level epics on EE as the standard. Neither are most of those who post builds or ask for build advice.

What I am looking at is highest level epics on EE and what impacts my build decisions is the probability of success in those quests. Can I solo? If no, can I expect to be accepted into a group? If I get accepted into a group can I make a difference and contribute or will I be a drain on resources and make completion difficult -- or worse, cause failure?

So, yes, everything is about that top N% of the game. And yes, that is what I think is implicit in a new player complaint about ransack and drop rate. Because I believe that their perception is predisposed to expect elite for whatever the content is and to build towards being able to complete EE on the top end content.

And that means that yes, we do need to consider the impact that has on a player 2 months in because ideally we want to retain that player. So we should give heed to his concern and give credence to his observation that a mechanic does not serve to attract or retain new players.

When I couple that with the observation that the loot in question is obsolete anyway I have to wonder whether it makes any sense at all to retain ransack and drop rates as they are. The underlying gist of those who are suggesting that things should remain as they are really consists of 2 parts: 1) I had to grind and 2) the loot is worthless anyway.

My counter is that 1) if the loot is worthless how can it possibly matter and 2) just because you had to grind doesn't mean that grinding is good. To this last point I would add that grinding has always been a hot topic and mostly with negative postings. I have never seen a post explaining how or why grinding actually helps increase player numbers. The best argument for grinding has always been, "every game has it."

But that totally ignores whether it is good or not.

Ransack is a tool that I seriously doubt has much positive impact on the game. Extremely low drop rates is a tool that no longer has much validity if the loot is in fact obsolete. And arguing that others should grind because we had to is just being petty.

Thrudh
03-25-2015, 01:55 AM
And when I am looking at a character and planning their eventual "final" look I'm not using what is needed to run low level epics on EE as the standard. Neither are most of those who post builds or ask for build advice.

You know the funny thing? People who care that much about achieving the "perfect" build spend a lot of time TRing because they want that last 5% of power from past-lives, even if it means grinding until their eyeballs bleed...

So they spend very little time actually playing that "final" build... And when they are finally done grinding, they usually start complaining the game is too easy, and there's nothing to do and end up quitting (the game, not the boards... they never leave the boards!)

I build my guys for heroic elite and soloing epic hard, and grouping epic elite... When I get a character to cap, I usually switch to a different character and TR him...


What I am looking at is highest level epics on EE and what impacts my build decisions is the probability of success in those quests. Can I solo? If no, can I expect to be accepted into a group? If I get accepted into a group can I make a difference and contribute or will I be a drain on resources and make completion difficult -- or worse, cause failure?

That's fine for you...


So, yes, everything is about that top N% of the game.

For you... Not for everyone. Not even a majority... Very few people play the top 1% of the game. Especially 2 months in... The OP is talking about heroic elite, and how if he has a +3 item at level 7 instead of a +4 item, the game is impossible to play.


When I couple that with the observation that the loot in question is obsolete anyway I have to wonder whether it makes any sense at all to retain ransack and drop rates as they are. The underlying gist of those who are suggesting that things should remain as they are really consists of 2 parts: 1) I had to grind and 2) the loot is worthless anyway.

I have been completely side-tracked by your assertions that the game is only about top-level epic elite (1% of the game), and the OP assertions that named gear is necessary to complete heroic elite.

I don't really care about ransack... I think it might be a bad idea to remove it just because the OCD is very high in MMO players, and too many of them WILL grind until they quit the game from absolute burn-out... Maybe increasing the drop rate on old stuff would be okay.

I don't think new players should grind because I had to grind, nor do I think the loot is worthless.

My point is the loot is not required... That's all I'm saying...

You deride my comment that 60% DPS is good enough... Well, go back 6 months... DPS has doubled since the bard/paladin/barb changes... So 6 months ago, most characters had 50% of the max possible DPS we have today (and we were more squishy)... yet we managed to complete end-game epic elite quests... smart tactical group play still works... You don't HAVE to zerg into a mob of monsters and just cleave until everything is dead. Sure, the max DPS players finish epic elite faster, but so what? They're bored out of their minds... I say, building that perfect build is a complete waste of time... You spend 90% of the time working on that last 10% of power, which you don't need, and in fact, just makes the game more boring.

My point is true... One does not NEED the max build, the max number of past-lives, the max gear to do well in this game...

My point is also true about end-game epic elite... Almost no one is playing it... Even the uber-elites spend most of their time TRing... I very rarely play end-game epic elite... Many of us players are happy if we can solo epic hard, and do okay in a group on epic elite... Very few people think their character is gimp unless they can solo epic elite.


I would add that grinding has always been a hot topic and mostly with negative postings. I have never seen a post explaining how or why grinding actually helps increase player numbers.

Well if you want an explanation.... what's the proper amount of grind? Should players get the best gear in every quest they run, the first time they run it? Would that be better? Would that make the game more fun? Or more boring? What's the magic number between the two bad choices of always and never?

blerkington
03-25-2015, 04:05 AM
It's also a bad moment when newer players lecture veterans....

I am not lying when I say having a +4 item instead of a +5 item will not make or break my build, or stop me from completing questlines, or in general stop me from playing or having fun at ALL.

Hi,

If you think lecturing people is bad, then perhaps you shouldn't be doing it yourself.

Personally, I have more time for new players who are getting frustrated with the way the game works, even if it leads them to do a bit of uninformed whining, than I do for experienced players who use threads like this as a soapbox rather than offering help.

The OP may be overestimating the value of named loot, but at this point we don't really have any of the particulars. Assuming that this wasn't all just an exercise in provoking forum drama, I would like to see a list of these difficult to obtain items which caused the first post to appear.

I'm pretty sure these problems, if they are actually real, could be solved by a bit of assistance from the community, whether in the form of advice or donated gear.

Thanks.

Kompera_Oberon
03-25-2015, 05:21 AM
If we were face to face I would tell you to look at me and tell me if you think I'm a new player. I have multiple accounts dating back to within 6 months of the game's public release. What I can do is not what most new players can do. Your own assessment of what you do demonstrates that you are not in my league when it comes to questing. Jumping from what I am able to do to a generalization that 99% of the game is easy is pure fantasy on your part.
First off, you're trying to introduce length of play as a factor which supports your position. This is a flawed position.
I'll remind you that a great many people other than myself have said in this very thread that you are just wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. If you rely upon play length as a validator then you have already lost this discussion. So then you'll concede, right? Or perhaps you'll now decide that this isn't the best determiner of right and wrong.

But let's let you run on, and we'll figure out who is in a pure fantasy.

Your citations of your multiple accounts have no relevance here. If they did, then anyone with a few dozen accounts would be in your eyes a more valid source. And yet creating a few dozen accounts is a free action which says nothing about the validity of the opinions of the person who created those accounts. So really, is someone with a few dozen accounts the bar by which you weigh valid comments? Or maybe do you have some other bar? And might you care to share that with us, since you've left it rather vague with your references to account age and multiple accounts and etc.

You've described what you can do in exacting detail. You made no distinctions for gear required for the 99% of the content, other then your admission that "almost" all of the top level content didn't require top level gear. You said simply that you had no problems running 99% of that content without any need for great gear. These are you words. You can retract them if you like, you can say that you were in error, but as they stand you've stated that 99% of the game content is trivially easy regardless of gear.

These are your words. I have quoted them in this thread.


According to this listing of quests (http://ddowiki.com/page/Quests_by_Level_and_XP) there are 366 quests in DDO. I do not believe I can solo any quest above L21 on epic elite. I have great difficult on the L20 quests and some of them I would be nervous of attempting. That is roughly 43 of the 366 quests or ~12%. If I remove the solo only quests and 0 XP quests, count all of the difficulty levels and include those quests that I cannot complete on epic hard I have a list of about 50 quests from around 1300 -- somewhere around 3%-4%.
Damn, this seems to be a quite different statement than your earlier assertion that "My L28 can run any quest in the game on EN or below." Would you now like to change your position on this? Admit that you were wrong? Come on, it's not that hard. When you argue against yourself as much as you do it must be easy to admit your failings, since arguing both sides of the coin means that you'll be wrong 100% of the time. Go ahead! Say it!

AbyssalMage
03-25-2015, 11:41 AM
One of these is not like the others. The turbulent epee from Missing has to have at least a 50% drop rate. Are you hitting the right chest? It's that one in the hideout, surrounded by water.
Yeah, the one in the Swiftfoot Hideout. Received 1 x Epee in 30 chests (possibly 40 but I would actually have to do the math). Ransacked once, run daily before hand (just to the chest, not completing adventure).

AbyssalMage
03-25-2015, 12:08 PM
We are about to get a new update. How many of you have been on Lamannia running the new content? You are aware that some subset of the player population has done just that, right?

You are aware that many of those players are going to ransack the quest within the first 48 hours (using stockpiled raid timer bypasses if necessary). If you pay attention to any release you will see that as a regular pattern. And, you'll notice that it happens mostly in guild and well established raid groups involving the same group of players.

What you will also notice is that somewhere between 48 and 72 hours after release there will be a down time and a hot fix. What you might not notice is that there will be a noticeable decrease in drop rate afterwards.

Now, I don't know if that is just forum legend or if it really happens. What I do know is that there will be postings complaining about it as there have been following almost every other release.
Part legend, party truth. Developers get busy and forget that they increased Drop chances on the preview server. My guess is they have to code each item individually. It doesn't always happen though but when it does, its a "shark frenzy." So you have a valid point on the first few days of a release and why their is a patch on Monday Morning after a release.


Essentially what happens is the haves get and the have nots don't. It has always been that way -- maybe more openly so since Lamannia went to a public server.
Those who like the grind, sure. Then come moaning on the forums that they have nothing left to get cause they did the above "said" thing.


So, I don't think that ransack penalty even matters. I don't think it influences any player behavior at all -- at least not in a positive and game enriching way. All that it does is create negativism directed at DDO over a mechanism that delays and hinders players from completing items -- items that most people in this thread dismiss as obsolete and irrelevant anyway.

No, the better answer is to just remove ransack. The alternative is to increase drop rates so that ransack becomes a negligible factor. I prefer the alternative. But either or both is probably appropriate at this point in the game.
It actually looks like U25 items are actually a downgrade from U23/U24 items which I am fine with as long as the Min. Level are appropriate for the risk (i.e. useful for ER/TR lives).

Increasing drop rates in raids, especially CitW, I would be fine with. It would minimize the grandeur of Raid Bypass Timers but not obsolete them.

A blanket increase in drop rates on group content I would not support. As far as removing Ransack, I don't know. I see why it is so appealing to remove and like my original post, feel its a legacy code from the time when the level cap was 20 and lower. Further, your insistence that it is a good idea while being so offensive towards others makes me want to just say its a bad idea.

Bluegirl_Two
03-25-2015, 12:22 PM
First off, you're trying to introduce length of play as a factor which supports your position. This is a flawed position.

<snip>

Your citations of your multiple accounts have no relevance here.

Number of accounts is irrelevant, length of time playing the game is not. Experience and familiarity with quests enables me to do things that other players with less experience cannot. I was in a quest a couple of weeks back when my character started to get into trouble because of the number of mobs. I moved to a safe space where the mobs were channeled and could not come at me except 1 at a time.

My son walked in and was watching the game. He sometimes plays. He asked how it was I knew that the spot was there because in all of his time running the game he'd never seen it used.

Those types of things are what experience gets you.

Elsewhere in the forums is a thread about preparing for dungeons. It asks about harbor quests and the problems with kobold shaman and their lightning bolts. Experience lets a player know that the number and placement of those mobs is always the same, what the animation telling you that it is time to move looks like, how quickly you need to react.

The relevant part is the experience.


These are your words. I have quoted them in this thread.

Actually, you have deliberately misquoted me and attributed words to me that I never said. Here is what I said, quoted exactly from the posts where I said them:


My L28 can run any quest in the game on EN or below. He can manage most quests on EH. He's almost entirely worthless even in a group on any of the newer quests/raids on EE. The reason -- almost all of it is gear.


According to this listing of quests (http://ddowiki.com/page/Quests_by_Level_and_XP) there are 366 quests in DDO. I do not believe I can solo any quest above L21 on epic elite. I have great difficult on the L20 quests and some of them I would be nervous of attempting. That is roughly 43 of the 366 quests or ~12%. If I remove the solo only quests and 0 XP quests, count all of the difficulty levels and include those quests that I cannot complete on epic hard I have a list of about 50 quests from around 1300 -- somewhere around 3%-4%.

Let's look at the first quote: EN or below, check; most EH, check.

Now the second quote: EN or below, check; most EH, check.

Perhaps you are having trouble understanding how that relates to EE. Having stopped with being able to handle most EH implies that EE is typically beyond my ability. It doesn't seem necessary to state that. Distinguishing that the character is almost entirely worthless in later EE implies that he is not that way in earlier EE.


You made no distinctions for gear required for the 99% of the content, other then your admission that "almost" all of the top level content didn't require top level gear. You said simply that you had no problems running 99% of that content without any need for great gear. These are you words. You can retract them if you like, you can say that you were in error, but as they stand you've stated that 99% of the game content is trivially easy regardless of gear.

I have just finished rereading all of my posts in this thread. I never used the 99%/1% words. The first reference in the thread to 99/1% comes from you:


And your own words contradict you when you literally agree with me by stating that 99% of content is not gear dependent, and that only that last 1% offers you, personally, any challenge at all due to not having the very best gear the game has to offer.

And I replied,


Let's clear this up. I do not agree with you. I appreciate you trying to make it seem that way. but I've said nothing of the sort. Most quests have 4 difficulty settings. That means nearly 25% of all quests are elite. And, running elite quests at or below level is in fact gear dependent -- which is what I have consistently said. The addition of greater challenge only makes that near 25% of content even more gear dependent than it already was.

You then said,


If my figure of 99% is off by much I'll be very surprised.

Two points here -- first, it was your figure and not mine. I cannot stress this enough. You have routinely said that those were my words and yet you clearly take credit for it being your figure.

Second,


According to this listing of quests (http://ddowiki.com/page/Quests_by_Level_and_XP) there are 366 quests in DDO. I do not believe I can solo any quest above L21 on epic elite. I have great difficult on the L20 quests and some of them I would be nervous of attempting. That is roughly 43 of the 366 quests or ~12%. If I remove the solo only quests and 0 XP quests, count all of the difficulty levels and include those quests that I cannot complete on epic hard I have a list of about 50 quests from around 1300 -- somewhere around 3%-4%.

Surprise!

At this point you have become that monster that lives under the bridge. You came out making all sorts of accusations, all of which have been shown to be wrong. You completely misrepresent what I've said but even when hacked into dozens of pieces you come crawling back together to make even more outrageous and unfounded claims.

Your most cogent argument is that others disagree with me and that you do too. However,


... ok, so I agree with you for the most part that frustrating grinds are frustrating. I get that. But I found that was the case with every other MMO I've played too, especially WoW, so I'm not really sure what the problem is with DDO.


As someone who spend 80+ runs to get an sos, 4,5 years to get the shard on his main i feel your pain.
One of the many reasons to tr is to bypass that painful grind of gearing up, only to replace it for a painful exp grind....


I will say without reservation that the general perspective of the original post is right on target.


DDO's loot system is frustrating for new players; I learn that every time I start on a new server. There should be way more semi decent gear as static rewards like the eveningstar/wheelon/storm horn items on lower levels.


I have been completely side-tracked by your assertions that the game is only about top-level epic elite (1% of the game), and the OP assertions that named gear is necessary to complete heroic elite.

I don't really care about ransack... I think it might be a bad idea to remove it just because the OCD is very high in MMO players, and too many of them WILL grind until they quit the game from absolute burn-out... Maybe increasing the drop rate on old stuff would be okay.

Now, if this doesn't clear things up for you then let's look at the original subject of the thread -- ransack and drop rate.

I do understand, as Thrudh observes, that some of the discussion side tracks us from the main topic. But what is evident is that while we can have disagreements about what is easy or hard, what forum focus or build focus is, and even about what players are doing live in game, the question of ransack and drop rate and the associated grind is recognized by others as well.

My assertion is that my experience permits me to do things new players cannot. I'm pretty sure that several of these others will mention experience as part of their reply.

My assertion is that even with my experience that I twink low level characters before starting any quest. I'm pretty sure that several of these others will mention twink gear -- although the best of them will say that random generated loot is good enough at early levels.

My assertion is that for a new player the lack of experience and the lack of twink gear creates a negative impression because for them the game is, in fact, too hard. I'm pretty sure that several of these others tacitly agree with that, which explains why they advise running quests on normal or hard settings instead of elite.

If you look into the ways that these others agree and disagree with me you'll see that the amount of disagreement is far less than it appears.

It is only you who seems intent on arguing just to argue. Even when shown to be wrong you insist on coming back and making the same false statements time and time again.

Maybe it is time to stop hacking you to pieces and to bring out the fires of moderation.

Bluegirl_Two
03-25-2015, 12:31 PM
I build my guys for heroic elite and soloing epic hard, and grouping epic elite...

I get that.

I also get that the forums don't normally reflect that notion in build threads so that new players coming to and reading the forums easily fall into the mindset that they should build for epic elite.

The truth is that there are several more sane voices in the forums that advocate for a less narrow point of view and I am often among those, as you are. It is also true that those more sane voices often get shut down or ignored in those same threads.

None of that alters the importance of understanding the impact or minimizes how it affects a new player, like the OP, when they see the grind that ransack and low drop rates brings to the game.

Neither does it invalidate OP's observation that those things are a turnoff to new players.

Bluegirl_Two
03-25-2015, 12:45 PM
Increasing drop rates in raids, especially CitW, I would be fine with. It would minimize the grandeur of Raid Bypass Timers but not obsolete them.

A blanket increase in drop rates on group content I would not support. As far as removing Ransack, I don't know. I see why it is so appealing to remove and like my original post, feel its a legacy code from the time when the level cap was 20 and lower. Further, your insistence that it is a good idea while being so offensive towards others makes me want to just say its a bad idea.

:D

Fair enough. I'm abrasive, I know it. Even when I try not to be it seems that I am. Pretty much with everyone (with one obvious exception) I've tried to be conciliatory and understanding in the thread. I guess I should add that to the reasons why people support no change.

I will challenge you to revisit your opposition to a blanket increase in drop rates.

Functionally, is there any meaningful difference in effect if drop rates increase but ransack remains when compared to retaining drop rates but removing ransack? To me it appears that the only difference is the number of times that you need to run the quest.

Even if I take the position staked out by others that the gear is not obsolete and worthless (and note, that this is being put forth by Thrudh who also says that random generated loot is just fine -- most of the others have asserted that the gear is obsolete, including you IIRC), what difference does it make if a player gets an item in a smaller number of runs?

Take into account OP's complaint that the number of runs is a hindrance to new player recruitment and retention. Then put that in context of reducing player populations.

Is opposing increased drop rates really the rational choice? Or, within the context of older loot, is the better choice to go ahead and encourage success by increasing the chances for the older gear.

Note that I'm not totally on board with both increasing drop rates and removing ransack. My preference is increasing drop rates and retaining ransack. But, presuming that the incentive for doing either is to attract and to retain new players, which is the better choice and why?

Bluegirl_Two
03-25-2015, 01:10 PM
But, presuming that the incentive for doing either is to attract and to retain new players, which is the better choice and why?

I did not follow through on this in my previous post because I felt that I would lose some of what I wanted to say there. So, I'm repeating myself now in order to continue a tangential thought.

It seems to me that there are 5 choices:

1) What Turbine will do -- unfathomable but probably 2, although it could be to change some and leave others as they already have done.
2) Make no change, leave ransack and drop rates as they currently are.
3) Remove ransack, leave drop rates.
4) Leave ransack, change drop rates.
5) Remove ransack, change drop rates.

While conceding 1, my real question (revealed in the quote) is which of the other 4 choices is best and why?

If historic data is correct and the chance to pull an item is actually =<1% (and, BTW, that is what the historic data indicates for an individual) then leaving things as they are means on average 100 days and 100 repeats to get any item. The reason is because the ransack factor drops the loot level of a chest and rapidly puts the various ingredients outside of the loot table.

Removing ransack and leaving drop rates reduces the number of days but not the number of quest repeats. A player no longer needs to wait on ransack to reset but they still have a =<1% chance at the pull so the on average number of runs is still 100.

Leaving ransack and increasing drop rates changes the number of days and runs required based on the change to drop rate. An increase to ~5% means 20 days and 20 repeats. That dovetails fairly well with the idea of 20th completion rewards.

Removing ransack and increasing drop rates reduces the number of days and sets the number of repeats to whatever the new drop rate produces.

IMO the current process clearly has little going for it. I think Turbine recognizes that and that players recognize that -- which is why we had a drop rate increase in a lot of the content.

I think that running a quest 100 times to get twink gear that may or may not be obsolete is excessive.

My feeling is that reducing then number of runs and also making it possible to do all in the same day just makes a mockery of the whole system.

So, to me, the rational change is to retain ransack and to up the drop rate.

Now, whether that should be from =<1% to 5% or 10% or 15% or even 2% is a separate debate. I can see that the bigger numbers are probably too much. But, with the comparability to 20th reward lists I think that a strong case can and should be made for increasing drop rates to ~5%.

Thrudh
03-25-2015, 01:12 PM
I did not follow through on this in my previous post because I felt that I would lose some of what I wanted to say there. So, I'm repeating myself now in order to continue a tangential thought.

It seems to me that there are 5 choices:

1) What Turbine will do -- unfathomable but probably 2, although it could be to change some and leave others as they already have done.
2) Make no change, leave ransack and drop rates as they currently are.
3) Remove ransack, leave drop rates.
4) Leave ransack, change drop rates.
5) Remove ransack, change drop rates.

While conceding 1, my real question (revealed in the quote) is which of the other 4 choices is best and why?

If historic data is correct and the chance to pull an item is actually =<1% (and, BTW, that is what the historic data indicates for an individual) then leaving things as they are means on average 100 days and 100 repeats to get any item. The reason is because the ransack factor drops the loot level of a chest and rapidly puts the various ingredients outside of the loot table.

Removing ransack and leaving drop rates reduces the number of days but not the number of quest repeats. A player no longer needs to wait on ransack to reset but they still have a =<1% chance at the pull so the on average number of runs is still 100.

Leaving ransack and increasing drop rates changes the number of days and runs required based on the change to drop rate. An increase to ~5% means 20 days and 20 repeats. That dovetails fairly well with the idea of 20th completion rewards.

Removing ransack and increasing drop rates reduces the number of days and sets the number of repeats to whatever the new drop rate produces.

IMO the current process clearly has little going for it. I think Turbine recognizes that and that players recognize that -- which is why we had a drop rate increase in a lot of the content.

I think that running a quest 100 times to get twink gear that may or may not be obsolete is excessive.

My feeling is that reducing then number of runs and also making it possible to do all in the same day just makes a mockery of the whole system.

So, to me, the rational change is to retain ransack and to up the drop rate.

Now, whether that should be from =<1% to 5% or 10% or 15% or even 2% is a separate debate. I can see that the bigger numbers are probably too much. But, with the comparability to 20th reward lists I think that a strong case can and should be made for increasing drop rates to ~5%.

Good post, and I'd be okay with your solution of upping drop rates on old gear to 5% as well.

Chai
03-25-2015, 01:26 PM
DPS has doubled since the bard/paladin/barb changes... So 6 months ago, most characters had 50% of the max possible DPS we have today (and we were more squishy)... yet we managed to complete end-game epic elite quests... smart tactical group play still works... You don't HAVE to zerg into a mob of monsters and just cleave until everything is dead. Sure, the max DPS players finish epic elite faster, but so what? They're bored out of their minds... I say, building that perfect build is a complete waste of time... You spend 90% of the time working on that last 10% of power, which you don't need, and in fact, just makes the game more boring.

My point is true... One does not NEED the max build, the max number of past-lives, the max gear to do well in this game...



Ive posted similar posts in different threads where that information is relevant. The hamster wheel might still apply to make a character that will be able to solo ToEE on EE when it comes out, but for the other 99.9% of the game, the high amounts of time and or money spent on the hamster wheel is no longer needed, as it makes up a much smaller percentage of the character's real power overall when completed.

Once Turbine began making decisions that lean more toward enjoyable play experience rather than class balance nerfs, the game became accessible to a much higher percentage of players, many who could care less about long term grind to make a perfectly planned character.

Enoach
03-25-2015, 05:42 PM
I kind of understand the OPs frustration on the Ransack. You see an item on a quest list and you think, wow that would work great for my character. Only to find not only did it not drop for you but no one else got one either.

Now you can probably throw a stone and hit multiple people that have run or even farmed quests and have never seen the item or maybe have seen it drop for someone else.

One of the nice things about Raid Timers is that it prevents Ransack if you abide by the timer and not use Raid Timer bypasses.

To me the main reason Turbine implemented Ransack had more to deal with players taking over level characters in to where the item drops and simply zerg there way through it until they get the item or their eyes bleed.

----------------
However, I do agree that there is no one specific gear item that is Required for a build. There are always Best In Slot items but while these will consolidate and allow you more options you can still level and complete quests. Example at one time the Ring of Feathers (ML 1 Featherfall) was considered the item. But now Featherfall is on so many different items and is just as easy to craft a ML 1 item (possibly even expand on it so it is not just Featherfall as you level up). Its now simply a novelty item. Not as useful as it once was but not something you want to just throw away.

I loved the discussion about the eSoS. I'm one that spent a lot of time just trying to get the Heroic version since it first was available. For those that weren't here it first became available as part of a guaranteed 2 Raid Item drop in which the PL assigned the shards to allow them to be looted (Worked great if the PL was straight up but was bad if the PL limited the distribution to their limited circle). I finally got one on my character in Early Fall of 2014. I had been carrying around everything to make it epic since 2013. Now I'm not kidding about this, months later I pulled two of them. Loot gods can be cruel that is all I can say :)

----------------
Now the question about completing EE content with sub-optimal characters even a Full Group of sub-optimal characters is possible. I think many people forget that Turbine does not create quests with the idea that they are going to crush the player. They have added in lots of mechanics that when a group of players works together they can be successful. Sure they are not going to do it in the same amount of time, but not everyone measures in XP/MIN or with DPS. To that end I've been in groups in quests like WGU with 6 moderately geared players working together to pull and manage the encounters.. Now I will admit that 1/2 the party were seasoned explorers practicing tactics of encounter management since '06. But you don't need that much practice to pull off what we did.

EE is not for the UBERS only and to think that is a grave mistake. It is available to those who also take the time and use their head. I mean how else do you think so many of us non-power gamer/UBERS walk around with stuff power gamers believe only they should have? Or where do you think quest guides come from as well as the release of secrets on how to handle encounters better, it comes from those of us that look beyond the min/max paradigm.

Bluegirl_Two
03-25-2015, 06:09 PM
One of the nice things about Raid Timers is that it prevents Ransack if you abide by the timer and not use Raid Timer bypasses.

I'm not sure that this even matters to most players. Because you can get a nearly complete list of raid items as a Nth completion reward the issue of ransack is really insignificant. What is important is getting in N runs of the quest.

I do like your SoS story. I only ever had one drop and that was after the days to party leader control but during the days of group dynamics where loot generally was passed to characters based on class. Although that sparked lots of forum discussions about who loot actually belonged to, the common behavior was to pass loot. I did. I've only seen 1 drop since then and I came dead last in the loot roll for it.

General_Gronker
03-27-2015, 10:01 AM
that's at best a half truth. False.

Nope - I have to pay a subscription or I cant level. False.

Nope - again I have to pay to be able to enjoy the game. False.

Again no. False.

If you dont have +stat tomes (which anyone not having played for years wont), then your going to need the named items to boost yourself enough to be able to even have a chance (even a small one) of not only getting into any kind of decent group, but most def of being able to take your character anywhere post 20, or even accomplish basic things in game. False.


This is one game where the difference in having or not having a single point in something will make or break entire buildsTrue

the ability to complete questlines, False.

or in general, to be able to play and have fun at ALL. False.

That's the god's truth False.


and anyone familiar with this game would be lying to deny it. You know, before you go accusing anyone of lying about something, you might want to check the ratio of True to False in your statements. So far, you've managed one true claim. One. Out of many.

Has it occurred to you that the problem might not be with the game? Or that maybe this simply isn't the game for you?