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Domacett
03-18-2015, 08:46 PM
I'd like to see these.

Something that works like the Harper tree.

You could take enhancements from these trees but the more points you spend the more vulnerability you have to positive and silver damage.

Yes, something like this is on one of those other games, but I want my DDO.

doubledge
03-18-2015, 11:46 PM
Vampire tree i can't see at all. It'd be essentially a pale master tree, except you don't have access to self healing unless you're a cleric, or a pale master. (speaking of which, they really need to give the vampire form DR/silver...)


Lycanthrope, on the other hand, i can get completely behind. Maybe give it some sort of charged shapechange ability into a druid wolf, extra dr/silver per core enhancement, bonuses to unarmed combat... extra natural armor... Maybe if you added a mockup of a tree, the idea would get much more of a following.

Uska
03-19-2015, 12:31 AM
Can't see either

Vamp is pale master

And weres have no place on Eberron

Unsmitten
03-19-2015, 12:44 AM
Can't see either

Vamp is pale master

And weres have no place on Eberron

Harper's don't belong in Eberron either, yet we have that tree. I agree that there is no place for a vampire tree, but it would be neat to see a standalone lycanthrope tree.

HatsuharuZ
03-19-2015, 01:20 AM
And weres have no place on Eberron

There are Shifters, which are an Eberron race. And the only people you have to worry about if you are a werewolf are the Silver Flame. :P

Daine
03-19-2015, 01:20 AM
Can't see either

Vamp is pale master

And weres have no place on Eberron

Weres are the ancestors of shifters and definitely have a place in Eberron lore, though frankly shifters wold be more appropriate for the setting.

HatsuharuZ
03-19-2015, 01:28 AM
Hmm... if I recall correctly, aren't there some prestige classes from 3/3.5 edition that focus on shapeshifting? Those could be used as a basis for a werewolf tree, of sorts.

Domacett
03-19-2015, 01:56 AM
Yes, we have pale master and they have a vampire form, but a vampire tree wouldn't have a lich form. This auxiliary tree would compliment any other class. I want my fighter to have the option of carrying the vampire curse. Maybe something with a Ravenloft feel. A ranger stricken with a lycanthropy disease has role play potential too.

bartharok
03-19-2015, 03:28 AM
Might be appropriate is we gwt a ravenloft setting. But even then i think itshould be a new iconic, since that would make more sense to me.

Uska
03-19-2015, 09:39 AM
Harper's don't belong in Eberron either, yet we have that tree. I agree that there is no place for a vampire tree, but it would be neat to see a standalone lycanthrope tree.

Not in my eyes plus the silver flame should have you hunted down once you set foot on eberron. what we need is the shifter race not silly weres

Uska
03-19-2015, 09:41 AM
There are Shifters, which are an Eberron race. And the only people you have to worry about if you are a werewolf are the Silver Flame. :P

Shifters aren't weres although the SF did try to,treat them so,at times.


Yes to shifters HELL NO to weres!

Uska
03-19-2015, 09:42 AM
Weres are the ancestors of shifters and definitely have a place in Eberron lore, though frankly shifters wold be more appropriate for the setting.

Agsin yes to shifters they are a race and not a enhancement tree anyone could take

Uska
03-19-2015, 09:43 AM
Yes, we have pale master and they have a vampire form, but a vampire tree wouldn't have a lich form. This auxiliary tree would compliment any other class. I want my fighter to have the option of carrying the vampire curse. Maybe something with a Ravenloft feel. A ranger stricken with a lycanthropy disease has role play potential too.

Not really there isn't much roleplay here it just doesn't work well in MMO's

dkyle
03-19-2015, 09:54 AM
Lycanthrope tree sounds like it could be cool, and could give Monks some much needed help (although, that's still better done by fixing the class itself).

Eberron lore presents no meaningful obstacle to including them. They're not extinct, and Silver Flame doesn't care that much about them anymore. Besides, they'd make at least as much sense as Drow PCs in Forgotten Realms.

But I never consider PnP lore a meaningful reason to oppose or support a change to DDO, anyway. Only care about effects on how the game plays.


Not really there isn't much roleplay here it just doesn't work well in MMO's

Then why do you so strenuously object on roleplay-based grounds?

General_Gronker
03-19-2015, 02:19 PM
Something that works like the Harper tree? How is that going to handle the whole involuntary transformation aspect? You'd also have to implement the Control Shape skill. Unless you want them to have full control over their change, which would mean that that you want a race (a natural born lycanthrope), with a specific Were enhancement tree.

Crazy, but there are rules about these things in the mothergame.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm

Edit: Also, for reference:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

harry-pancreas
03-19-2015, 04:16 PM
I'd like to see these.

Something that works like the Harper tree.

You could take enhancements from these trees but the more points you spend the more vulnerability you have to positive and silver damage.

Yes, something like this is on one of those other games, but I want my DDO.

i'd love to be a werewolf !
vampire would be like PM, we have enough undead stuff (both enemies and pc's)

dkyle
03-19-2015, 04:58 PM
Something that works like the Harper tree? How is that going to handle the whole involuntary transformation aspect? You'd also have to implement the Control Shape skill. Unless you want them to have full control over their change, which would mean that that you want a race (a natural born lycanthrope), with a specific Were enhancement tree.

Crazy, but there are rules about these things in the mothergame.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm

Edit: Also, for reference:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

Involuntary transformation is obviously not appropriate for an MMO (except as an individual quest mechanic; that could be cool). It would indeed be "crazy" to use the rules from the "mothergame".

Basically, it would just be a shape-shifting enhancement tree. Reason being to allow combination with all other races and classes.

Unsmitten
03-19-2015, 05:00 PM
What if they added Lion of Talisid as a standalone tree. Give it an animal companion with it's first Core and have its level based on the points spent in the tree capped by your character level. Then with the other cores give access to cat shapes. Haven't put much thought into this, but would be a start.

Domacett
03-19-2015, 05:18 PM
I still think a Vampire tree would be cool. And not a PM, I don't want to be forced to take waggler levels. I want to make a knight of Vol. I also think it would be a good tree to put a Wisdom=hitpoints enhancement. Think of it as holding your body together by will power instead of guts. :D

Daine
03-19-2015, 08:47 PM
I don't mind vampires coming in with all sorts of cool features: charm, super strength, super speed, super healing, immunity to many weapons, fangs, mist, bat and wolf forms and anything else that people want so long as they remember, in fiction there is a reason the hero always wins over the vampire:

A stake to the heart: take double damage from arrows, bolts and all other wooden weapons

The power of faith: vulnerable to good, take double damage from good weapons

Sunlight: Vulnerable to sunlight, take double damage damage from light based spells

Water: Vulnerable to running water, slowed by water attacks, major penalty to swim

Silver: Vulnerable to silver, take double damage from silver weapons

Decapitation: Vulnerable to decapitation, all successful vorpals do double vorpal damage

Fire: Vulnerable to fire take double damage from fire

Natural Sunlight: cursed effect, vampires cannot heal by any means they also take damage over time, meaning no matter how strong a vampire it will eventually die if standing outside in the sun.

Dead, properly, incontravertably dead: Positive healing spells will always damage. Raise dead and resurrect do not work.

Uska
03-20-2015, 01:24 AM
Lycanthrope tree sounds like it could be cool, and could give Monks some much needed help (although, that's still better done by fixing the class itself).

Eberron lore presents no meaningful obstacle to including them. They're not extinct, and Silver Flame doesn't care that much about them anymore. Besides, they'd make at least as much sense as Drow PCs in Forgotten Realms.

But I never consider PnP lore a meaningful reason to oppose or support a change to DDO, anyway. Only care about effects on how the game plays.



Then why do you so strenuously object on roleplay-based grounds?

I don't think weres should be pcs for any reason historically in game weres often lost control and needed to be destroyed

bartharok
03-20-2015, 03:52 AM
I don't think weres should be pcs for any reason historically in game weres often lost control and needed to be destroyed

i THINK the greater weres had more control, so they could possibly be implemented as iconics.

Uska
03-20-2015, 09:31 AM
i THINK the greater weres had more control, so they could possibly be implemented as iconics.

Except they said no more Iconics never understood why people want to be monsters or evil.

I always want to be the good guy in pnp

dkyle
03-20-2015, 09:39 AM
I don't think weres should be pcs for any reason historically in game weres often lost control and needed to be destroyed

Because PCs always represent the most usual case? So what if it's "often"? That doesn't mean there can't be good weres, where those happen to be PCs.

"Historically" necromancers are often bad too, but that doesn't stop Pale Masters from existing as heroes.

And pretend history is a terrible reason to reject a cool idea, anyway.


Except they said no more Iconics never understood why people want to be monsters or evil.

I always want to be the good guy in pnp

Different people want different things.

The "heroic monster" is a really common trope in fiction. Why is it so hard to understand why someone would want to play one at a gaming table, or in an MMO?

Uska
03-20-2015, 09:49 AM
Because PCs always represent the most usual case? So what if it's "often"? That doesn't mean there can't be good weres, where those happen to be PCs.

"Historically" necromancers are often bad too, but that doesn't stop Pale Masters from existing as heroes.

And pretend history is a terrible reason to reject a cool idea, anyway.



Different people want different things.

The "heroic monster" is a really common trope in fiction. Why is it so hard to understand why someone would want to play one at a gaming table, or in an MMO?

I am rejecting because I don't think its a cool idea and also for what I would see as wasted dev time especially for models they would have to draw and the animation of those models. Those issues are some of the reasons it takes so long to get new races and classes and not really seeing a huge out cry for this as there are many races and classes people would rather see.

PsychoBlonde
03-20-2015, 11:03 AM
I really like this idea a lot. The thought of adding in some of these flavor bits from actual D&D REALLY appeals to me, and adding class-neutral enhancement trees would be a great way to work this. The major problem I see with Vampire, though, is that D&D vampires are always evil aligned. But you could add in more neutral/good trees instead, like:

Half-Celestial
Half-Fiend
Half-Dragon
Half-Golem
Lycanthrope (have a multiselector so you can pick which kind, maybe)
Planetouched
Ghost

Could be really cool--templates were a big part of 3.5 D&D, so this suggestion has a LOT of potential.

Each tree could involve a small cosmetic change instead of a big one--varying wings for the half-Celestial/half-Fiend/half-Dragon ones. Neverwinter Nights had glue-on wings for the Dragon Disciple tree, so this shouldn't be too much of a headache. Maybe a big metal casing for the half-golem, kind of like the stone casing you get from Earth Savant. Lycanthrope would be harder--probably best to work that one as an alternate form, like with Druid. But they could probably just re-use the Druid stuff since wolf and bear are among the lycanthrope types in the Monster Manual. Personally I'd also like to see Rat, as Wererats were among the most common lycanthropes.

So, really, it wouldn't have to take a TON more effort than most new trees.

dkyle
03-20-2015, 12:44 PM
I am rejecting because I don't think its a cool idea and also for what I would see as wasted dev time especially for models they would have to draw and the animation of those models. Those issues are some of the reasons it takes so long to get new races and classes and not really seeing a huge out cry for this as there are many races and classes people would rather see.

Sure, everyone's got their own personal tastes.

Just objecting to the argument that established D&D lore is any significant impediment.

PsychoBlonde
03-20-2015, 01:05 PM
You know what'd also be cool? A class-neutral "Leadership" tree (perhaps tied to a "Leadership" feat) that'd let you pick up (and buff up) a follower. That feat was a cool part of D&D, too.

Really, this would be a way to inject lots of interesting flavor.

dkyle
03-20-2015, 01:52 PM
You know what'd also be cool? A class-neutral "Leadership" tree (perhaps tied to a "Leadership" feat) that'd let you pick up (and buff up) a follower. That feat was a cool part of D&D, too.

Really, this would be a way to inject lots of interesting flavor.

Basically like Arti/Druid dogs, but it's a person? Could work.

Pet-mechanics are a really hard game design space, though, and it's not exactly a solved problem for the dogs. Shape-change is relatively easy game-mechanics-wise (it's just buffs), albeit hard art-assets-wise.

PsychoBlonde
03-20-2015, 03:47 PM
You forgot pale master skeleton. Pet mechanics don't have to be perfect to be fun to fiddle with, and anything that adds more options to fiddle with to the game without substantially breaking anything else is a reasonably decent idea in my book. After all, I INTENTIONALLY do plenty of sub-optimal builds just because I want to fiddle with them. Yeah, I may not be able to do that elite streak at epic levels, but so what. I have a monster character in the wings if I feel a need to whip out my uberness and shake it in everyone's faces.

Everything doesn't have to be uber to be fun. And since they already have druid shapechange all worked out, it wouldn't require much in the way of art assets and animation to create a "turn into a wolf" lycanthrope tree, for example. Just change the color since werewolves are supposed to look more eviller/badass. Give them red eyes or something. Boom. Done.

PsychoBlonde
03-20-2015, 03:52 PM
I could get behind the idea of special trees that are unlocked by taking a specific feat, too, not just Leadership necessarily. Maybe for racial template trees, have it be unlocked by a feat that you have to take *as your first-level feat*? That'd make sense. Maybe have more race-related feats that you additionally have to take at later levels in order to unlock higher abilities in the tree? I don't think it'd be bad on the art assets and animations if they kept to the KISS principle with the cosmetic stuff.

There was some possible discussion about having a "Dragonmarked Heir" tree that'd require you to have a dragonmark, for instance.

PsychoBlonde
03-20-2015, 03:57 PM
A werewolf/vampire event might make a cool thing, also. Instead of having it be a permanent part of the game, just make it an event where everyone can "contract lycanthropy" or "contract vampirism" for a short time and you run around doing vampire and werewolf stuff for a while. (Could have a godawful Twilight vampires vs. wolves parody element in there, too.) Gotta be easier to code than making all those dang kobolds follow the torches properly. :P

dkyle
03-20-2015, 04:17 PM
You forgot pale master skeleton. Pet mechanics don't have to be perfect to be fun to fiddle with, and anything that adds more options to fiddle with to the game without substantially breaking anything else is a reasonably decent idea in my book. After all, I INTENTIONALLY do plenty of sub-optimal builds just because I want to fiddle with them. Yeah, I may not be able to do that elite streak at epic levels, but so what. I have a monster character in the wings if I feel a need to whip out my uberness and shake it in everyone's faces.

Everything doesn't have to be uber to be fun. And since they already have druid shapechange all worked out, it wouldn't require much in the way of art assets and animation to create a "turn into a wolf" lycanthrope tree, for example. Just change the color since werewolves are supposed to look more eviller/badass. Give them red eyes or something. Boom. Done.

Sure, for you. Others best enjoy the game when they're playing it well, and simply find it frustrating when a concept they like turns out to be a trap.

I think it's a big mistake for devs to ever knowingly put sub-par options into the game. Make it worthwhile, or don't bother. But I think it's certainly possible to make pets worthwhile, just hard.

lyrecono
03-20-2015, 07:29 PM
I don't mind vampires coming in with all sorts of cool features: charm, super strength, super speed, super healing, immunity to many weapons, fangs, mist, bat and wolf forms(forms that make you not able to equip gear?) and anything else that people want so long as they remember, in fiction there is a reason the hero always wins over the vampire:

A stake to the heart: take double damage from arrows, bolts and all other wooden weapons

The power of faith: vulnerable to good, take double damage from good weapons

Sunlight: Vulnerable to sunlight, take double damage damage from light based spells

Water: Vulnerable to running water, slowed by water attacks, major penalty to swim

Silver: Vulnerable to silver, take double damage from silver weapons

Decapitation: Vulnerable to decapitation, all successful vorpals do double vorpal damage

Fire: Vulnerable to fire take double damage from fire

Natural Sunlight: cursed effect, vampires cannot heal by any means they also take damage over time, meaning no matter how strong a vampire it will eventually die if standing outside in the sun.

I love this, imagine all the edward wanebies asking in general chat if the sun went down in game XD
Dead, properly, incontravertably dead: Positive healing spells will always damage. Raise dead and resurrect do not work.
Yes please!!!

Vampires are downright op with their bonuses in the right circumstances, downright weak in any others (going out on a sunny day)
templates and races are not replacement for building a proper character and giving it a good back story.
Where-wolfs didn't work because Eberron has 12 (formally 13, a bakers dozen, a reference to Keith Baker, one of the creators of Eberron) so they would go out of control too often, that's why the silver flame exterminated them.
Keith gave good tools to the DM's of the day to keep unbalanced (yet popular) templates of the day out of the game.
Vamps would be smart to stay out of sight,
Half dragons would be hunted to death,
Where-creatures would be hunted though no creatures on Eberron left to pass it on,
Etc


I am rejecting because I don't think its a cool idea and also for what I would see as wasted dev time especially for models they would have to draw and the animation of those models. Those issues are some of the reasons it takes so long to get new races and classes and not really seeing a huge out cry for this as there are many races and classes people would rather see.

i agree, i rather see the base races and Eberron races added
including shifters!
that will get you as close as one could get to where-creatures without getting op

Eberron had such nice features, the races were well thought out.
In PnP i played a wf juggernaut that was so armored up (adam body take) that he looked like an extremely heavily armored human.
Due to the immunities, soft glowing green eyes, the smell (a rat crawled up the adam body and died), the heal spells not working, the fact he never ate, slept, breath or took of the helmet put the party on edge, the party cleric has tried to turn him at one point XD.
the dm was really stingy, the previous party i got all the way up to lv 16 with just a +2 great-axe so the wf was instantly veto'd out by the gm, i managed to convince him with the role-play aspect and the fun of having the party trying to find out whether i was an undead and if so which kind. XD

now in DDo the wf is no longer that special, many immunities have been nerfed or are easily obtained by magic.
this makes me wonder about the templates the op mentioned, how watered down will they be?
Won't it be easier for turbine to sell cosmetic skins? (related to festivals?)

Uska
03-20-2015, 09:25 PM
You know what'd also be cool? A class-neutral "Leadership" tree (perhaps tied to a "Leadership" feat) that'd let you pick up (and buff up) a follower. That feat was a cool part of D&D, too.

Really, this would be a way to inject lots of interesting flavor.

While I hate pets other than cosmetic I like this better then silly were ideas that would suck up to much dev time. This idea really wouldn't take near as much time and I think a lot of people would like it(not me but a lot)

salmag
03-21-2015, 11:36 AM
I agree with Uska. You cannot control lycanthropic changes. As for vampires, you can't control the sunlight in the game clock. Both of those ideas are terrible. Palemaster have forms that give them attributes of the undead, they are NOT vampires.

However...


Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde

You know what'd also be cool? A class-neutral "Leadership" tree (perhaps tied to a "Leadership" feat) that'd let you pick up (and buff up) a follower. That feat was a cool part of D&D, too.

Really, this would be a way to inject lots of interesting flavor.


While I hate pets other than cosmetic I like this better then silly were ideas that would suck up to much dev time. This idea really wouldn't take near as much time and I think a lot of people would like it(not me but a lot)

Once again, I agree with Uska.

Make it a "follower/pet" tree, only opening up when pets/followers become available. IIRC level 15 from old school DnD (tweek it in DDO to level 4 - keep druids/artis/(add ranger pets) at level 1.

OT: while you're at it add familiars to Wizards as a cosmetic that adds a buff of some kind. Buff along with cosmetic lost upon death - needs to be recalled.{just an idea}.

Uska
03-21-2015, 05:46 PM
I agree with Uska. You cannot control lycanthropic changes. As for vampires, you can't control the sunlight in the game clock. Both of those ideas are terrible. Palemaster have forms that give them attributes of the undead, they are NOT vampires.

However...





Once again, I agree with Uska.

Make it a "follower/pet" tree, only opening up when pets/followers become available. IIRC level 15 from old school DnD (tweek it in DDO to level 4 - keep druids/artis/(add ranger pets) at level 1.

OT: while you're at it add familiars to Wizards as a cosmetic that adds a buff of some kind. Buff along with cosmetic lost upon death - needs to be recalled.{just an idea}.

Not bad idea for familiars and gives them some use without being over powered

TromboneFireTurtle
03-21-2015, 10:24 PM
I believe the the "Dragonmarked Heir" mentioned above has some merit, as we are now all Harpers, although some of us aren't big fans of the Forgotten Realms. A tree based on Ebberon lore would appeal to many, and maybe some trees like "Silver Flame Crusader" for Pallys, FvS, and Clerics, "Gatekeeper" for Druids and possibly Rangers, "Deneith Mercenary" for Fighters and Barbs, "Lightbringer" for Monks and Clerics (to be brought in with Kalashtar), "Sneak Thief of Sharn" for Rogues and Monks, and "Emissary of the Twelve" for Arcanes would appeal to many.

PsychoBlonde
03-22-2015, 03:49 PM
I don't think weres should be pcs for any reason historically in game weres often lost control and needed to be destroyed

Except there was an entire expansion book that had rules for playing were-critters and prestige classes for them and stuff . . .

HISTORICALLY people even sometimes want rules for playing stuff that's not even INTELLIGENT. If it IS intelligent, SOMEONE has wanted to play one.

"An UNDEAD aboleth? You want to play an UNDEAD aboleth?"
"Well, yeah, because that way I won't need the water tank! I'll be a lich! Aboleths are spellcasters!"
"Bojemoi."

bartharok
03-22-2015, 04:56 PM
Except there was an entire expansion book that had rules for playing were-critters and prestige classes for them and stuff . . .

HISTORICALLY people even sometimes want rules for playing stuff that's not even INTELLIGENT. If it IS intelligent, SOMEONE has wanted to play one.

"An UNDEAD aboleth? You want to play an UNDEAD aboleth?"
"Well, yeah, because that way I won't need the water tank! I'll be a lich! Aboleths are spellcasters!"
"Bojemoi."

I once bought a PnP game where you played amoebas. You had a color, and you found foodstuff and ate, hoping to split before something ate you.

Uska
03-22-2015, 05:46 PM
Except there was an entire expansion book that had rules for playing were-critters and prestige classes for them and stuff . . .

HISTORICALLY people even sometimes want rules for playing stuff that's not even INTELLIGENT. If it IS intelligent, SOMEONE has wanted to play one.

"An UNDEAD aboleth? You want to play an UNDEAD aboleth?"
"Well, yeah, because that way I won't need the water tank! I'll be a lich! Aboleths are spellcasters!"
"Bojemoi."

An optional splat book thst no GM in their right mind ever allowed

bartharok
03-22-2015, 07:14 PM
An optional splat book thst no GM in their right mind ever allowed

None in your mind at least. Differing tastes are not insanity

dkyle
03-22-2015, 09:32 PM
I agree with Uska. You cannot control lycanthropic changes.

In some fictions, sure. But notably, not in 3.5 PnP. Only freshly afflicted lycanthropes couldn't control their changes. Natural-born ones could do it trivially, and afflicted ones could learn to do it.

Uska
03-22-2015, 09:48 PM
None in your mind at least. Differing tastes are not insanity

Allowing an over powered splat book is pretty crazy it seemed each one was worse than the one before it.

bartharok
03-22-2015, 10:10 PM
Allowing an over powered splat book is pretty crazy it seemed each one was worse than the one before it.

Its probably way overpowered compared to the core books, yes. But consider the situation when the opposition iis equally powerful. Like in Zelaznys amber series.

Uska
03-23-2015, 02:01 AM
Its probably way overpowered compared to the core books, yes. But consider the situation when the opposition iis equally powerful. Like in Zelaznys amber series.

Never liked his Amber books at all some of his other stuff was great I especially liked his contributions to the wild cards series

lyrecono
03-23-2015, 07:25 AM
Except there was an entire expansion book that had rules for playing were-critters and prestige classes for them and stuff . . .

HISTORICALLY people even sometimes want rules for playing stuff that's not even INTELLIGENT. If it IS intelligent, SOMEONE has wanted to play one.

"An UNDEAD aboleth? You want to play an UNDEAD aboleth?"
"Well, yeah, because that way I won't need the water tank! I'll be a lich! Aboleths are spellcasters!"
"Bojemoi."

and then?
Have butcher shops sell animal blood in vials? how fresh does it need to be? does animal blood even work in this setting or are they forced to drink human blood to keep their abilities?
How does that work? enthrall people on the streets? start your own band and drain the groupies? become a mafia hit-man and drain your "kills"? how is this going to sit well with the towns-guard? or the silver flame? Will the Coinlords allow someone that prays on their business associates to live?
It took the king of Karnath decades, a personal staff of mages to buff him, an entire country of resources and a stack of magical items to pull this of.

and that's just the vampire part, how about the lycantropes? how do you deal with turning into a hairy rage monster every few days? Remember that Eberron has 12 moons and that means roughly every 2,5 days one goes full. This was the main reason why they all got killed by the silver flame, they were too many incedents.

Conclusion:
Since a template or monstrous race isn't a human in a rubber suit with a list of special abilities and stats i highly doubt they will add anything good and balanced to the game.
In all honnesty, the shifter race& a shifter enhancement tree based on the Weretouched Master would work well as an iconic, assuming the dev's can actually handle it.

as for playing a vampire, just make sure you don't ask for a sparkly one, that deserves only 1 awnser:
Disclaimer: the following video, though made for entertainment purposes might be offensive to Twilight fans that have no sense of humor, i strongly recommend the both of you to stay in the staircase closet, and not to click on this video.
This clip is taken from Helsing abridged, the entire series has been uploaded to YouTube by the owners, i do not own the series nor this clip.
I do not condone excess violence, i do however find it hilarious. (hence posting this on the forum of an adult hack and slash game)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=741xh8vvkWo

dkyle
03-23-2015, 09:51 AM
and then?
Have butcher shops sell animal blood in vials? how fresh does it need to be? does animal blood even work in this setting or are they forced to drink human blood to keep their abilities?
How does that work? enthrall people on the streets? start your own band and drain the groupies? become a mafia hit-man and drain your "kills"? how is this going to sit well with the towns-guard? or the silver flame? Will the Coinlords allow someone that prays on their business associates to live?
It took the king of Karnath decades, a personal staff of mages to buff him, an entire country of resources and a stack of magical items to pull this of.

It's an MMO. This stuff doesn't matter. It'd be a thing that gives some bonuses, maybe some penalties, and maybe some graphical changes. That's all it has to do.


and that's just the vampire part, how about the lycantropes? how do you deal with turning into a hairy rage monster every few days? Remember that Eberron has 12 moons and that means roughly every 2,5 days one goes full. This was the main reason why they all got killed by the silver flame, they were too many incedents.

You don't. You just don't implement them that way. Because that would be stupid in an MMO. Implement the ones that can control their changes (which do exist in the game DDO is mostly based on).

Lonnbeimnech
03-23-2015, 09:54 AM
In some fictions, sure. But notably, not in 3.5 PnP. Only freshly afflicted lycanthropes couldn't control their changes. Natural-born ones could do it trivially, and afflicted ones could learn to do it.

As trivially as exiting a dungeon and spending plat to reallocate your AP...

lyrecono
03-23-2015, 10:32 AM
It's an MMO. This stuff doesn't matter. It'd be a thing that gives some bonuses, maybe some penalties, and maybe some graphical changes. That's all it has to do.

since they can't implement their penalties (sunlight, feeding, crossing water, etc) then why bother, why not say: hey dev's here's my 50 bucks, F balance, give me better stats. why bother with "being" that template to begin with?

You don't. You just don't implement them that way. Because that would be stupid in an MMO. Implement the ones that can control their changes (which do exist in the game DDO is mostly based on).

You're missing the point entirely, the makers of PnP Eberron wrote 90% of the templates out on purpose, that's why we had an uproar when Eberron got them in the epic necro 4 slayer zone
They should not be implemented at all....because the game DDO is based on doesn't have them.
I strongly suggest you go read the source material

Wheretouched masters however... are still not where(insert animal), but watered down(so more balanced) versions

dkyle
03-23-2015, 10:33 AM
As trivially as exiting a dungeon and spending plat to reallocate your AP...

It's an MMO. Respec represents what, in PnP, would be a whole different character (or at least, something subject to case-by-case DM approval). I don't see anyone complaining that a person could "quit" and "rejoin" the Harpers constantly, for plat, when roleplay-wise, that makes zero sense.

But a particular spec (where a PC can choose to transform or not, like a Druid) is totally in line with what's possible in 3.5. That's the only standard that makes any sense, when comparing an MMO with respec (as all MMOs should) to a PnP game that essentially doesn't have respec.


You're missing the point entirely, the makers of PnP Eberron wrote 90% of the templates out on purpose, that's why we had an uproar when Eberron got them in the epic necro 4 slayer zone
They should not be implemented at all....because the game DDO is based on doesn't have them.
I strongly suggest you go read the source material

Wheretouched masters however... are still not where(insert animal), but watered down(so more balanced) versions

And you're missing that we're not just in Eberron anymore. Also, that weres aren't even extinct in Eberron. Also, that the lore of Eberron was never meant to be a straight-jacket. All this debate completely flies in the face of Baker's design philosophy.

Frankly, I don't care one bit if DDO keeps to PnP lore or not. I'd much rather the devs do whatever they think adds to the gameplay, and adapt lore if necessary. But in this case, the established PnP lore isn't even a meaningful impediment. Absolutely nothing would have to change in Eberron lore for Were PCs to make as much sense as anything else in the game.

Everyone's got their own personal tastes, and I'm not debating that, but citing lore is an attempt to elevate your personal taste into an absolute.

bartharok
03-23-2015, 05:37 PM
Never liked his Amber books at all some of his other stuff was great I especially liked his contributions to the wild cards series

I liked amber, but have to admit that they were not his best. I used it as an example of relative powerlevels, of which wild cards (and any other superhero book/movie/comic) can be used as an example. The idea is that the pwoerlevels of the heroes and the antagonists must be on approximately the same levels.

lyrecono
03-23-2015, 06:41 PM
It's an MMO. Respec represents what, in PnP, would be a whole different character (or at least, something subject to case-by-case DM approval). I don't see anyone complaining that a person could "quit" and "rejoin" the Harpers constantly, for plat, when roleplay-wise, that makes zero sense.

But a particular spec (where a PC can choose to transform or not, like a Druid) is totally in line with what's possible in 3.5. That's the only standard that makes any sense, when comparing an MMO with respec (as all MMOs should) to a PnP game that essentially doesn't have respec.



And you're missing that we're not just in Eberron anymore. Also, that weres aren't even extinct in Eberron. Also, that the lore of Eberron was never meant to be a straight-jacket. All this debate completely flies in the face of Baker's design philosophy.

Frankly, I don't care one bit if DDO keeps to PnP lore or not. I'd much rather the devs do whatever they think adds to the gameplay, and adapt lore if necessary. But in this case, the established PnP lore isn't even a meaningful impediment. Absolutely nothing would have to change in Eberron lore for Were PCs to make as much sense as anything else in the game.

Everyone's got their own personal tastes, and I'm not debating that, but citing lore is an attempt to elevate your personal taste into an absolute.

They created where touched for the exact purpose of fulfilling the need some have for furry's, a balanced race that, he/she so chooses, can grow into a more animal like state without going over the edge and turning into a real where creature and attacks the party/other innocent people every 2,5 days. imagine the mess this disease can cause, the silver flame was wise to wipe them all out before this became an epidemic you would normally see in movies like "day of the dead".
A named elderly werewolf still exists in the Eldereen reaches but he has been kept hidden, this is a long way from having an excepted race of lyco's running around.
For all intent and purpose; where creatures are extinct, sometimes 1 slips through the crack between the planes and should be quickly dealt with (12 moons and all).
There is a small army near the portal to Eberron, if anything furry, scaly, rotting or otherwise unnatural sets foot near that portal it gets turned around or turned to ash

As for "we're not just in Eberron anymore", no s, Dorothy, since The forgotten realms came out we lost: End game, half the player base, superior writing, the rate of "good" content being published, years of unbalanced content, half (if not more) dev's and the list goes on, no thank you, marry sue elminster and his realm should have stayed forgotten. The only realms content i can somewhat support is the HH en thunderholme pack, even though there are to many light-miror puzzles in the raid and 90% of HH get skipped. If HH's was given a lv 5-7 version and an entrance in eberron i wouldn't even have to set foot in that poorly produced piece of code.

As for :the lore of Eberron was never meant to be a straight-jacket. A straight jacket? no, but if you change everything in such a drastic manner you don't play DDO anymore but a generic grey paste mmo.
they did their best to bar out the best templates of their day;
Half dragon's, attacked on sight by argonessen
any undead, destroyed on sight, Silver flavor an any other good based faith
were-creatures, destroyed on sight (constant rage due to 12 moons)

So no to vampires and were-creatures, no to cheaply veiled attempts to get better stats, this isn't skyrim.

Domacett
03-24-2015, 01:58 AM
I sense much anger in lyrecono. I'm amazed at how much debate was sparked by this little idea.

Oh well, I'll just settle for a vampire warrior forum avatar for now.

lyrecono
03-24-2015, 03:54 AM
I sense much anger in lyrecono. I'm amazed at how much debate was sparked by this little idea.

Oh well, I'll just settle for a vampire warrior forum avatar for now.

no anger, though i had to bring out the DM hammer on similar ideas during my time as a PnP GM

the thing is this:
why would someone want those templates?

Roleplay? the just roleplay as one.
that leaves you with a stat block. why do you need the boost? the gap between a triple heroic&epic&iconic completionist and a first lifer is enormous (i know, i'm nearly done with the third) why should you want more power? what do you think you can do with that that we can't do now?

Let's look at their stats: (srd stats)

Creating A Vampire
"Vampire" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

A vampire uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type
The creature’s type changes to undead (augmented humanoid or monstrous humanoid). Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.
Nothing realy changes here
Hit Dice
Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.
Triple the hp for wiz and sorcs, but they loose the con bonus, so if you dump con you have an advantage until higher levels where the con bonus might win out from the D12, sounds worthless

Speed
Same as the base creature. If the base creature has a swim speed, the vampire retains the ability to swim and is not vulnerable to immersion in running water (see below).
nothing changes here, we do not have races with swim speed in DDO

Armor Class
The base creature’s natural armor bonus improves by +6.
We have bigger augments the +6, so only at low level the vamp has an advantage.

Attack
A vampire retains all the attacks of the base creature and also gains a slam attack if it didn’t already have one. If the base creature can use weapons, the vampire retains this ability. A creature with natural weapons retains those natural weapons. A vampire fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack or its primary natural weapon (if it has any). A vampire armed with a weapon uses its slam or a weapon, as it desires.
Meh, a monk at lv 1 has the same attack

Full Attack
A vampire fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack (see above) or its natural weapons (if it has any). If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a slam or other natural weapon as a natural secondary attack.

Size Damage
Fine 1
Diminutive 1d2
Tiny 1d3
Small 1d4
Medium 1d6
Large 1d8
Huge 2d6
Gargantuan 2d8
Colossal 4d6
Damage
Vampires have slam attacks. If the base creature does not have this attack form, use the appropriate damage value from the table below according to the vampire’s size. Creatures that have other kinds of natural weapons retain their old damage values or use the appropriate value from the table below, whichever is better.

Special Attacks
A vampire retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains those described below. Saves have a DC of 10 + ½ vampire’s HD + vampire’s Cha modifier unless noted otherwise.

Blood Drain (Ex)
A vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points.
We can not pin/graple in DDO, if we want to drain stats we can use weapons, this attack is useless in epics due to immunities and regen

Children of the Night (Su)
Vampires command the lesser creatures of the world and once per day can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might summon other creatures of similar power.) These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the vampire for up to 1 hour.
so low level summons that die outside of the harbor? meh

Dominate (Su)
A vampire can crush an opponent’s will just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save or fall instantly under the vampire’s influence as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 12th). The ability has a range of 30 feet.
I don't see a limited use or cooldown, a bit OP for low level, useless at mid/high/epic levels.

Create Spawn (Su)
A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn 1d4 days after burial.
we don't stay in a quest long enough for that to happen, but if those annoying shadow spawns are any indication, no thank you, i see to many people chasing the wrong mob

If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.
Interesting ability, too many mobs immune to it though (constructs, undead, planar folks etc)

Energy Drain (Su)
Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.
We have this on weapons

Special Qualities
A vampire retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains those described below.
oooohhhh the real meat and potatoes i hope :)

Alternate Form (Su)
A vampire can assume the shape of a bat, dire bat, wolf, or dire wolf as a standard action. While in its alternate form, the vampire loses its natural slam attack and dominate ability, but it gains the natural weapons and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. It can remain in that form until it assumes another or until the next sunrise. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might allow other forms.)
We already have wolf forms (which due to a bug is so op it's broken)
We can't have fly in this game (otherwise we would fly directly to our quest objective), so no bats

Damage Reduction (Su)
A vampire has damage reduction 10/silver and magic. A vampire’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
meh stoneskin and other forms of dr (also prr) trump this

Fast Healing (Ex)
A vampire heals 5 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Any additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in its coffin, a vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round.
This wouldn't work in ddo, no coffin to return to, we also have better sources of self healing

Gaseous Form (Su)
As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.
Just like the bat, you can't have fly in this game, to easy to bypass traps/quests

Resistances (Ex)
A vampire has resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10.
Meh, we can get better froms ships, spells, pots

Spider Climb (Ex)
A vampire can climb sheer surfaces as though with a spider climb spell.
Too OP, too easy to skip quests

Turn Resistance (Ex)
A vampire has +4 turn resistance.
mobs use turn?

Abilities
Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. As an undead creature, a vampire has no Constitution score.
Ahhhh here we go, the power you seem to desire, just dump con at creation and have a 12 hp each level and op stats

Skills
Vampires have a +8 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Otherwise same as the base creature.
Mohhhhh power!!!!!

Feats
Vampires gain Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes, assuming the base creature meets the prerequisites and doesn’t already have these feats.
gee wiz, really? 5 feats with no costs?

Environment
Any, usually same as base creature.

Organization
Solitary, pair, gang (3-5), or troupe (1-2 plus 2-5 vampire spawn)

Challenge Rating
Same as the base creature +2.

Treasure
Double standard.

Alignment
Always evil (any).
This
Advancement
By character class.

Level Adjustment
Same as the base creature +8.

Vampire Weaknesses
For all their power, vampires have a number of weaknesses.
Can we finally have some balance?

Repelling a Vampire
Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action.
No garlic in the game, a few mirrors you need to pass and lots of holy (and unholy) symbols in the game, how can we pick up or do quests like this?

Vampires are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship.
That crosses of 30-50 quests in this game

They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all.
hahaha, this should prove funny XD, so many quests has us invade homes

Slaying a Vampire
Reducing a vampire’s hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it but doesn’t always destroy it (see the note on fast healing). However, certain attacks can slay vampires. Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape. Similarly, immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion. Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed. A popular tactic is to cut off the creature’s head and fill its mouth with holy wafers (or their equivalent).

So: daylight..... this affects 80% of the slayer areas and public area's have fun sunbathing XD
running water, so you're piking 20-30 quests?


Vampire Characters
Vampires are always evil, which causes characters of certain classes to lose some class abilities. In addition, certain classes take additional penalties.
So no paladins in the party allowed?

Clerics
Vampire clerics lose their ability to turn undead but gain the ability to rebuke undead. This ability does not affect the vampire’s controller or any other vampires that a master controls. A vampire cleric has access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, or Trickery.

Sorcerers and Wizards
Vampire sorcerers and wizards retain their class abilities, but if a character has a familiar other than a rat or bat, the link between them is broken, and the familiar shuns its former companion. The character can summon another familiar, but it must be a rat or bat.

Ahhhhh there we go, the real reason for this, vampire casters, the template fits perfectly.


Yeah, block of stats with weaknesses that can not be imlemented, no thank you

dunklezhan
03-24-2015, 04:13 AM
Harper's don't belong in Eberron either, yet we have that tree.

Which is wrong as a result. They should just have made it the 'espionage agent' tree or something instead of tying it to bloody Harpers.

Grandern_Marn
03-24-2015, 04:33 AM
Many people have pointed out weaknesses with the vampire option such as already existing vampirism related enhancements in the Pale Master tree and other implementation issues. I do like the idea of lycanthropy as a stand alone enhancement tree however.


Something that works like the Harper tree? How is that going to handle the whole involuntary transformation aspect? You'd also have to implement the Control Shape skill.... there are rules about these things in the mothergame.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm


Having the Control Shape skill would be a very interesting dynamic. You may start the tree with little control on shape changing and as you grow through the tree you would learn to control the ability. Always having a small percent chance of changing form at an inopportune time however would be an intriguing balance mechanism with the advantages gained with the condition.

lyrecono
03-24-2015, 06:37 AM
wich leads to........... wait for it.........weretouched masters, a race made for fury lovers in Eberron

dkyle
03-24-2015, 09:29 AM
As for "we're not just in Eberron anymore", no s, Dorothy, since The forgotten realms came out we lost: End game, half the player base, superior writing, the rate of "good" content being published, years of unbalanced content, half (if not more) dev's and the list goes on, no thank you, marry sue elminster and his realm should have stayed forgotten. The only realms content i can somewhat support is the HH en thunderholme pack, even though there are to many light-miror puzzles in the raid and 90% of HH get skipped. If HH's was given a lv 5-7 version and an entrance in eberron i wouldn't even have to set foot in that poorly produced piece of code.

I largely agree, but those are problems of game design, not lore. FR lore has essentially nothing to do with any of the problems MotU brought.


As for :the lore of Eberron was never meant to be a straight-jacket. A straight jacket? no, but if you change everything in such a drastic manner you don't play DDO anymore but a generic grey paste mmo.
they did their best to bar out the best templates of their day;
Half dragon's, attacked on sight by argonessen
any undead, destroyed on sight, Silver flavor an any other good based faith
were-creatures, destroyed on sight (constant rage due to 12 moons)

DDO is a different game. Being broken is 3.5 has absolutely nothing to do with being broken in DDO. A line-by-line reading of the SRD mechanics is totally meaningless. That's never what would be put in DDO, and even if it were, the context is totally different.


why would someone want those templates?

Roleplay? the just roleplay as one.
that leaves you with a stat block. why do you need the boost? the gap between a triple heroic&epic&iconic completionist and a first lifer is enormous (i know, i'm nearly done with the third) why should you want more power? what do you think you can do with that that we can't do now?

Of course it's about a stat block. Everything in an MMO is about a stat block. Almost noone gives a damn about roleplaying in an MMO.

An enhancement tree is a good way to give options to everyone, not just completionists, so your gap comment doesn't hold. And an alternative enhancement tree wouldn't be so much about more power (although if it helps unarmed characters, that would be good), but about more options. Which is what DDO's all about. Who knows what cool builds these kinds of trees could add to the game?

I can't say anything about how good the trees would be or not in terms of mechanics (because they don't exist yet), but your opposition to them even in principle seems entirely unjustified. Which is OK; noone has to justify their personal tastes. But your arguments simply don't hold up.

Domacett
03-24-2015, 10:37 AM
an alternative enhancement tree wouldn't be so much about more power (although if it helps unarmed characters, that would be good), but about more options. Which is what DDO's all about. Who knows what cool builds these kinds of trees could add to the game?


This right here sums up my reasoning.