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Samones
03-09-2015, 10:35 AM
With the passes to the other two enhancement trees of the rogue coming soon, and my wife playing the mechanic tree pretty heavily, I figured I'd make my own run at the tree to try to give it a bit of flavor so that it's not simply the watered down F2P version of the artificer that it seems to be right now. So here it is. Disclaimer: I haven't played the mechanic myself and I'm also relatively new to the game, so please be civil in your comments. This could very well be a complete trash idea, so if you think so, at least tell me why.


Core Abilities
Arbalester: (1 AP) Increases your ranged sneak attack and point blank shot by 5 meters and gain 5 ranged power per core ability. You also gain proficiency with great crossbows.
Note: Honestly, looking at the Deepwood Stalker tree, it's kind of weird that this core ability doesn't belong to the rogue as well. They're supposed to be the king of sneak attacks, but the only range increase they get is by 5 meters on the first core ability. That's outdone even by the elven cores.
Tanglefoot: (1 AP) CD 30 seconds, Alchemical Trap, as is.
Note: I'm not sure how well this ability scales, but at the level I'm playing at, it's actually really nice, especially if you have someone that the mobs can crowd around.
Targeting Sights: (1 AP) Int to Damage, prof. with light repeating crossbows
Improved Detection: (1 AP) detect traps from farther, prof. with heavy repeating crossbows, Int to attack
Note: Given the other cores in the rogue trees and with already have Int to damage, adding Int to attack just makes sense since all their traps are also Int based
Expert Builder: (1 AP) +1 crit multiplier to great crossbows, reduced CD on traps
Sniper: (1 AP) +2 Int, +2 SA, always in sneak attack/pbs range

Tier 1
Crossbow Training: (2 AP) as is
Lacerating Shots: (2/4/6 AP) Great Crossbow puts 1/2/3 stacks of bleed on hit
Note: This was changed due to the issue that the bleed damage has in the other rogue tree, namely that it doesn't really scale very well. A couple d6 every few seconds is great at early levels, but insignificant at later ones. I was thinking that this might help and so I changed it, but also changed the AP cost to try to compensate for the early game damage.
Thunderstone: (1/2/3 AP) as is
Note: Dropped AP cost from 2 per rank to 1 to make room for additional traps and abilities.
Mechanics: (1/2/3 AP) as is
Awareness: (1/2/3 AP) as is

Tier 2
Crossbow Training: (2 AP) as is
Improved Traps: (1/2/3 AP) as is
Flashbang: (1/2/3 AP, requires thunderstone) Cooldown 15 seconds, blinds enemies for 6 seconds, DC 10/12/14 + half rogue level + Int negates
Note: With rogues having some issues with handling multiple opponents and the mechanic tree being so close thematically to the artificer, I figured that emphasizing the use of these alchemical traps as well as boosting the ranged SA and PBS were the way to go.
Wand and Scroll Mastery: (2/4/6 AP) as is
Skill Boost: (2/4/6 AP) as is

Tier 3
Crossbow Training: (2 AP) as is
Wracking Strike/Shot: (1/2/3 AP) as is
Ooze Flask: (1/2/3 AP) damage and DC same, change the -4/6/8 AC debuff to the improved sunder debuff (-5 AC, -10% fort)
Note: With the AC changes, this doesn't really make that much of a difference. I feel like this makes more sense thematically as well as provides nice little boost in power. Honestly, it could just apply the fortification debuff and be fine. Also dropped this trap's cost
Use Magical Device: (1/2/3 AP) as is
Dex or Int: (2 AP) as is

Tier 4
Crossbow Training: (2 AP) as is
Disable Construct (1/2/3 AP) as is
Molotov Cocktail: (1/2/3 AP, requires ooze flask) 20 sec CD, sets ground on fire, deals 3d6 fire damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. Ref DC 10/12/14 + half rogue level + Int for half damage
Note: The other two trees of rogue have at least a chance of clearing out trash mobs quickly (lots of hits through TWF for assassin, cleaves for Acrobat), I figured that this plus the core trap would help the mechanic.
Leg Shot: (2 AP) as is
Dex or Int: (2 AP) as is

Tier 5
Rapid Fire: (1/2/3 AP) as is
Time Bomb: (2/4/6 AP) as is
Sight the Target: (2 AP) +1 competence bonus to critical threat range with crossbows
Note: This was one that I really wasn't sure about the balance, but at the same time felt strongly about putting something like this in. In the current Mechanic tree, the only crit thing they get is a +1 multiplier with great crossbows. For me, crits and SA are really what set rogues apart combat-wise from the other classes, but the Mechanic was sorely lacking in that department. With this, yes the great crossbow will have a fantastic crit profile, but it also fires significantly slower than the other crossbows, so I'm thinking that that might even out, but again, I'm not really sure. It also differentiates Mechanics with repeaters from everyone else who uses them in a very rogue-like way.
Ranged Power: (1 AP) +10 Ranged Power

One of the more subtle changes to this is that the total cost of this tree is 80 points, as opposed to 71. Which was good since you needed to invest a few into Harper. Hopefully this would help make the mechanic a viable and at least somewhat unique character path while not begging the question of "why don't you just be an artificer?" Enjoy.

Saekee
03-09-2015, 11:41 AM
I suggest you wait to post these when Sev creates an official mech thread. They probably already have stuff planned out and are waiting to finalize the other two trees (in truth all three ought to be worked on simulateously)

LuKaSu
03-09-2015, 11:46 AM
With the passes to the other two enhancement trees of the rogue coming soon, and my wife playing the mechanic tree pretty heavily, I figured I'd make my own run at the tree to try to give it a bit of flavor so that it's not simply the watered down F2P version of the artificer that it seems to be right now. So here it is. Disclaimer: I haven't played the mechanic myself and I'm also relatively new to the game, so please be civil in your comments. This could very well be a complete trash idea, so if you think so, at least tell me why.


Core Abilities
Arbalester: (1 AP) Increases your ranged sneak attack and point blank shot by 5 meters and gain 5 ranged power per core ability. You also gain proficiency with great crossbows.
Note: Honestly, looking at the Deepwood Stalker tree, it's kind of weird that this core ability doesn't belong to the rogue as well. They're supposed to be the king of sneak attacks, but the only range increase they get is by 5 meters on the first core ability. That's outdone even by the elven cores.

Though I think this would be enjoyable, the combo of Deepwood stalker and this would make it so, with a 12 Rogue/6 Ranger (or vice versa), would have a sneak attack range of 35 meters extra, which is more than a pure Deepwood Stalker even (Remember Assassinate at Rogue level 12 works with ranged sneak attacks too). I could be in favor of putting it into the top two Mechanic Cores (so it couldn't be combined as much with Deepwoods Stalker), but not on all cores.



Tanglefoot: (1 AP) CD 30 seconds, Alchemical Trap, as is.
Note: I'm not sure how well this ability scales, but at the level I'm playing at, it's actually really nice, especially if you have someone that the mobs can crowd around.
Targeting Sights: (1 AP) Int to Damage, prof. with light repeating crossbows
Improved Detection: (1 AP) detect traps from farther, prof. with heavy repeating crossbows, Int to attack
Note: Given the other cores in the rogue trees and with already have Int to damage, adding Int to attack just makes sense since all their traps are also Int based
Expert Builder: (1 AP) +1 crit multiplier to great crossbows, reduced CD on traps



Sniper: (1 AP) +2 Int, +2 SA, always in sneak attack/pbs range


Again, I would really enjoy playing this, but with a pure rogue, you're looking at a minimum of 14d6 + any racial (3d6 from Shadar-Kai) or item sneak attacks on every sneak attack. That would be amazing to play, but completely overpowered. The main issue would be that Assassinate would now be extended to full range (I know, people will say that Swashbuckler's Coup de Grace can be a ranged attack, but combined with all the sneak attack bonus, it's crazy.) Even on a failed Assassinate, you get an additional 10d6 damage on the target (so 14d6 Rogue, +3d6 Racial, + 10d6 Assassinate + any item-based sneak attack damage on a Fail). That's why it's in the deepwood stalker tree instead. Without Ranged Assassinate and a bajillion extra sneak attacks, it can work in Deepwoods Stalker without being overpowering.



Tier 1
Crossbow Training: (2 AP) as is
Lacerating Shots: (2/4/6 AP) Great Crossbow puts 1/2/3 stacks of bleed on hit
Note: This was changed due to the issue that the bleed damage has in the other rogue tree, namely that it doesn't really scale very well. A couple d6 every few seconds is great at early levels, but insignificant at later ones. I was thinking that this might help and so I changed it, but also changed the AP cost to try to compensate for the early game damage.
Thunderstone: (1/2/3 AP) as is
Note: Dropped AP cost from 2 per rank to 1 to make room for additional traps and abilities.
Mechanics: (1/2/3 AP) as is
Awareness: (1/2/3 AP) as is

Tier 2
Crossbow Training: (2 AP) as is
Improved Traps: (1/2/3 AP) as is
Flashbang: (1/2/3 AP, requires thunderstone) Cooldown 15 seconds, blinds enemies for 6 seconds, DC 10/12/14 + half rogue level + Int negates
Note: With rogues having some issues with handling multiple opponents and the mechanic tree being so close thematically to the artificer, I figured that emphasizing the use of these alchemical traps as well as boosting the ranged SA and PBS were the way to go.
Wand and Scroll Mastery: (2/4/6 AP) as is
Skill Boost: (2/4/6 AP) as is

Tier 3
Crossbow Training: (2 AP) as is
Wracking Strike/Shot: (1/2/3 AP) as is
Ooze Flask: (1/2/3 AP) damage and DC same, change the -4/6/8 AC debuff to the improved sunder debuff (-5 AC, -10% fort)
Note: With the AC changes, this doesn't really make that much of a difference. I feel like this makes more sense thematically as well as provides nice little boost in power. Honestly, it could just apply the fortification debuff and be fine. Also dropped this trap's cost
Use Magical Device: (1/2/3 AP) as is
Dex or Int: (2 AP) as is

Tier 4
Crossbow Training: (2 AP) as is
Disable Construct (1/2/3 AP) as is
Molotov Cocktail: (1/2/3 AP, requires ooze flask) 20 sec CD, sets ground on fire, deals 3d6 fire damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. Ref DC 10/12/14 + half rogue level + Int for half damage
Note: The other two trees of rogue have at least a chance of clearing out trash mobs quickly (lots of hits through TWF for assassin, cleaves for Acrobat), I figured that this plus the core trap would help the mechanic.
Leg Shot: (2 AP) as is
Dex or Int: (2 AP) as is

Tier 5
Rapid Fire: (1/2/3 AP) as is
Time Bomb: (2/4/6 AP) as is
Sight the Target: (2 AP) +1 competence bonus to critical threat range with crossbows
Note: This was one that I really wasn't sure about the balance, but at the same time felt strongly about putting something like this in. In the current Mechanic tree, the only crit thing they get is a +1 multiplier with great crossbows. For me, crits and SA are really what set rogues apart combat-wise from the other classes, but the Mechanic was sorely lacking in that department. With this, yes the great crossbow will have a fantastic crit profile, but it also fires significantly slower than the other crossbows, so I'm thinking that that might even out, but again, I'm not really sure. It also differentiates Mechanics with repeaters from everyone else who uses them in a very rogue-like way.
Ranged Power: (1 AP) +10 Ranged Power

One of the more subtle changes to this is that the total cost of this tree is 80 points, as opposed to 71. Which was good since you needed to invest a few into Harper. Hopefully this would help make the mechanic a viable and at least somewhat unique character path while not begging the question of "why don't you just be an artificer?" Enjoy.

I like the trap emphasis in your other things. It would be cool to have more trap options.

Samones
03-09-2015, 01:44 PM
Though I think this would be enjoyable, the combo of Deepwood stalker and this would make it so, with a 12 Rogue/6 Ranger (or vice versa), would have a sneak attack range of 35 meters extra, which is more than a pure Deepwood Stalker even (Remember Assassinate at Rogue level 12 works with ranged sneak attacks too). I could be in favor of putting it into the top two Mechanic Cores (so it couldn't be combined as much with Deepwoods Stalker), but not on all cores.

...

Again, I would really enjoy playing this, but with a pure rogue, you're looking at a minimum of 14d6 + any racial (3d6 from Shadar-Kai) or item sneak attacks on every sneak attack. That would be amazing to play, but completely overpowered. The main issue would be that Assassinate would now be extended to full range (I know, people will say that Swashbuckler's Coup de Grace can be a ranged attack, but combined with all the sneak attack bonus, it's crazy.) Even on a failed Assassinate, you get an additional 10d6 damage on the target (so 14d6 Rogue, +3d6 Racial, + 10d6 Assassinate + any item-based sneak attack damage on a Fail). That's why it's in the deepwood stalker tree instead. Without Ranged Assassinate and a bajillion extra sneak attacks, it can work in Deepwoods Stalker without being overpowering.


Thanks for the feedback! I hadn't realized that Assassinate could also be ranged, nor was I yet thinking about its interactions with multiclassing, and I agree that that would be ridiculously overpowered. I was trying to think of a way to make it work thematically, but it may just be that the developers were right in this point: the Rogue's are better at sneak attacking from close range (relatively speaking) while the Deepwood can do some sniping from farther away, but won't hit as hard. I could accept that.