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Tilomere
02-27-2015, 05:55 AM
del

unbongwah
02-27-2015, 09:10 AM
Level DWS/Harper mix > swap to 41 AA 26 DWS 12 Harper 1 Human AB: Dmg at 20
Lemme guess: AA capstone + Slaying Arrow + Sniper Shot + max Killer? I wish unlocking the racial AA trees didn't cost 14 APs, otherwise I would suggest HE/elf so you didn't have to go pure rgr. EDIT: switching to HE w/arty dilly is actually a net gain of 1 feat (get repeater profs free); but you lose Dmg Boost unless you shift more APs into HE tree, so I presume that's a no-go.

Heavy Repeater Prof 1, PBS 1, Rapid Reload 3, Precision 6, IC:Ranged 9, Aug Summon (swap to Quicken at 20) 12 Insightful Reflexes 15 Light Repeater 18, OC 21, CA 24 (Dex 21) 26 ?, 27?, Epic Doubleshot 28
Why no Emp Heal?

Undead/Humans/Lizards?/Elves/Giants Favored Enemies?
Undead, Giants, and Evil Outsiders are always my first three choices. Beyond that, it depends on what content I'm primarily running: Constructs is good for Cannith / LoB, Elf is good for MotU, etc.

ED: LD w/ pulverizer + Pin/Whistler/Cocoon twisted
Does Morphic Arrows apply to bolts? I thought the answer was no, in which case Pulverizer does nothing, unless you plan to use eSilver Slinger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Silver_Slinger) exclusively.

Need a 26 and 27 feat. Also was wondering about taking PA for LD synergy at 27 vs. heavy armor, or maybe just haste to run 2% faster.
Rgrs only get light armor prof; and you need med armor prof before you can take hvy, so that's a two-feat investment. See Bass Ackwards (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/454904-Totally-Bass-Ackwards-An-int-based-heavy-armored-TWF-pure-tempest-ranger).

Why would you want Power Atk? You need it active to use Momentum Swing & Lay Waste, but those are melee-only abilities so they do you nothing. I don't think anything else in LD is PA-dependent.

Retrodark
02-27-2015, 10:38 AM
20 Ranger Repeater Human

Free Feats Rapid Shot 2, Precise Shot 4 IPS 11

Level DWS/Harper mix > swap to 41 AA 26 DWS 12 Harper 1 Human AB: Dmg at 20

Crafted Keen Heavy Repeater > GS Ooze/Silver Slinger > Epic Silver Slinger > Needle

Heavy Repeater Prof 1, PBS 1, Rapid Reload 3, Precision 6, IC:Ranged 9, Aug Summon (swap to Quicken at 20) 12 Insightful Reflexes 15 Light Repeater 18, OC 21, CA 24 (Dex 21) 26 ?, 27?, Epic Doubleshot 28






Rgrs only get light armor prof; and you need med armor prof before you can take hvy, so that's a two-feat investment. See Bass Ackwards (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/454904-Totally-Bass-Ackwards-An-int-based-heavy-armored-TWF-pure-tempest-ranger).
.

Could also do artificer 1 or 2 and medium armor(1) and heavy repeater(1)/rune arm(2) would be auto-granted. In addition, you could trap and have a lever pulling pet. Get enhance weapons spell, more sp.

Retrodark
02-27-2015, 12:42 PM
Ya loss of AP is a no-go on HElf. You are right about AP setup at 20.

Hmm with base dex so high for CA, Insightful reflexes isn't needed.

I didn't know where to put EmpH, there was only a 27 feat left. I guess it could go there.

Morphic arrows does not apply to bolts . Pulverizer was for weapon swap to Epic Silver Slinger for undead, and for 20-22.

Oh hmm, that frees up 2 feats. That means Medium + Heavy Armor. I'll use HAmp to bump heals up, and MRR/PRR to make HP stretch. Prowess set bonus will give some PRR, Blitz will add more, so it should be good to go. Also, if I heal with Cocoon, I can delay Quicken to get both armor feats earlier.

I was going to use PA for Imp PA in LD +0.5 W when precision wasn't needed, but I'm not sure it is worth the -5 to hit since it is hard to boost int as a Ranger. That's a no-go I think. No spare feats anyway.

I don't want to lose the AA capstone for arti-1 or 2. Was testing if a pure 20 ranged ranger really was as bad as everyone says, because I think it is going to destroy heroic content, and still be solid in epics.

Swapped lizards to Evil Outsiders.

Thx all! I think it's sorted then.

So basically, you are spending 40 mostly bow-based APs for the capstone and then using a repeater? I apologize, but I am having a hard time seeing the synergy.

unbongwah
02-27-2015, 02:21 PM
So basically, you are spending 40 mostly bow-based APs for the capstone and then using a repeater? I apologize, but I am having a hard time seeing the synergy.
41 APs into AA gets him +20% Doubleshot (capstone) and Slaying Arrow; along the way he can pick up EotW, True Strike, Inferno Shot, Dispelling Shot, and Shattermantle Shot, all of which should work with repeaters.

Unfortunately, OP has to spend a lot of APs on AA filler, so I'm not convinced this is a better repeater build than, say, my pal 14 / rgr 6 build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/454272-Iconic-LR-Questions?p=5511318&viewfull=1#post5511318) (Holy Sword + Killer + Sniper Shot); but I'll be curious to see how it works. :)

Retrodark
02-27-2015, 04:34 PM
41 APs into AA gets him +20% Doubleshot (capstone) and Slaying Arrow; along the way he can pick up EotW, True Strike, Inferno Shot, Dispelling Shot, and Shattermantle Shot, all of which should work with repeaters.

Unfortunately, OP has to spend a lot of APs on AA filler, so I'm not convinced this is a better repeater build than, say, my pal 14 / rgr 6 build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/454272-Iconic-LR-Questions?p=5511318&viewfull=1#post5511318) (Holy Sword + Killer + Sniper Shot); but I'll be curious to see how it works. :)

I didn't know that slaying arrow worked with repeaters. I guess since it says archery attack (like the other "shots")?

Retrodark
02-27-2015, 04:55 PM
AA definitely has better synergy with a bow, but that doesn't mean that a bow AA is better than a repeater AA on a pure ranged ranger. :)

Well, I would need to see how a repeater build will be better than a bow with AA. I honestly don't think it will be.

Something about using 30 APs just for AA filler, and needing to take feats like exotic - xbows (both light and heavy...lol...why????). Medium and Heavy armor (yes this would be a requirement for any pure ranger wanting to go heavy armor. (ofc, if you are purely ranged, it might be less necessary )).

How hard is it to reach 20% with killer with a repeater since it says this under the tooltip. (Repeating Crossbows have a reduced chance to produce extra shots). What is the reduced amount? Does that mean you only get a 10% chance vs. 20%?

Sehenry03
02-27-2015, 04:55 PM
41 APs into AA gets him +20% Doubleshot (capstone) and Slaying Arrow; along the way he can pick up EotW, True Strike, Inferno Shot, Dispelling Shot, and Shattermantle Shot, all of which should work with repeaters.

Unfortunately, OP has to spend a lot of APs on AA filler, so I'm not convinced this is a better repeater build than, say, my pal 14 / rgr 6 build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/454272-Iconic-LR-Questions?p=5511318&viewfull=1#post5511318) (Holy Sword + Killer + Sniper Shot); but I'll be curious to see how it works. :)

I found very few things worked from the ranger tree with a repeater. Someone needs to do some research on this. It has been awhile but I don't remember slayer arrows working with my repeater either. I know the paralyzer arrows and the force arrows and the elemental arrows did not work for me.

Xyfiel
02-27-2015, 11:27 PM
I have a 15Pal/4Arty/1Ftr Human great xbow user, although I stopped working on his epic TR's to focus on my main for awhile. Plan was +22 7.75[w] 11-20 x3 great xbow fusillades with high doubleshot. I was still using needle and pinion(have manyshot) at times since I didn't have all my doubleshot yet.

I never tested if repeaters actually got 1/3 doubleshot penalty like they are suppose to. I was fine playing the great xbow for something different anyway. I let my guildies know every time I was out-killing them. I decided against going AA via HalfElf, was just too much cost for another 20%. Let us know how it works out in epics.

Blackheartox
02-28-2015, 04:19 AM
Most stances should still be bugged, so in short he is abusing it, aka build that is focused on ploiting a bit.
With shots, issue is that you end up most of the time missing the shot in real combat.
Thats why people who played xbow or repe aa hybrids dont like that build or those sort of builds.
Realistically it is really hard to pay attention to reload sequene in combat and when you use shot during that time, you dont apply the attack, it goes to the reload animation, waste sp and do nothing.
And you cant make all shots in a doubleshot on a repeteater proc slaying shot either.
My assumption is that it has some kind duration where you get the buff to ammo fired in a short time span.
Example when you use fussilage it will apply to first 3-4 bolts but not the later ones, since manyshot fires and 10k more arrows at once it applies to every arrow.
When you fire a repeteater it will apply to first and maybe doubleshots 2nd, and with luck 2nd bolt so you might if very lucky get 3 slayer shot procs top.
But the "pay attention" on reload, and making it still not 100% as manyshot and 10 k are to apply makes it still way weaker then monkchery can be.
But for people with interest in repeteater there are many builds out there that incoperate shots in it.
Just, its hard to play with it and random lag spikes etc really kill it to be of oeffective use in game.
ITs rather effective on tdummy tho.


I had a pscreen long time ago where i procd 3 10 k slaiyng shots from regular adrenaline barrage during a artie life, but since im away from my home pc cant post it now.
Was like 3x 11 k damage or smthn /but was before thforged was released when i actually played with that sort of build to test stuff myself

Bluegirl_Two
03-01-2015, 03:59 PM
I found very few things worked from the ranger tree with a repeater. Someone needs to do some research on this. It has been awhile but I don't remember slayer arrows working with my repeater either. I know the paralyzer arrows and the force arrows and the elemental arrows did not work for me.

So, here's how it works. Equip bow, set stance, equip repeater. Now try and see which stances work and which do not.

Bluegirl_Two
03-01-2015, 10:44 PM
Exactly what is the fascination if imbues work? Am I missing something where they aren't all insignificant?

IIRC some of the imbues will not work and some will. At epic levels it may be moot. Others have pointed out the many shot and 10k stars are considered more damage output. However, leveling thru heroic content it mows through just about everything.

Once into epic content the ability to use bows still remains. In fact, I wonder at OP's focus on both heavy and light repeaters for that reason. Might save a feat and just use light repeater while relying on bow for things that Needle can't handle. Not my original idea, was turned onto the thought in my own thread about TF longbow v Pinion.

Oxarhamar
03-02-2015, 12:15 PM
IIRC some of the imbues will not work and some will. At epic levels it may be moot. Others have pointed out the many shot and 10k stars are considered more damage output. However, leveling thru heroic content it mows through just about everything.

Once into epic content the ability to use bows still remains. In fact, I wonder at OP's focus on both heavy and light repeaters for that reason. Might save a feat and just use light repeater while relying on bow for things that Needle can't handle. Not my original idea, was turned onto the thought in my own thread about TF longbow v Pinion.

OP focus is clear Heavy for Slinger Light for Needle

IMO there is nothing in game Needle cannot handle even if it is not breaking DR at all times even on EE.


If I were to do a repeater build that required feats I'd just take light use Needle & build light TF & GS for situational useage.

Needle will be higher DPS than TF on single red names so TF is just for trash @28 there is a thread with the math in Arti sub forum. I'm still not convinced TF w/ Mortalfear is better tha Needle for trash as trash dies often before MF procs.

Oxarhamar
03-02-2015, 12:21 PM
To the OP

I had a 8/4/8 fighter/Arti/rogue. Shadar Kai Kensei, Battleengineer, Mechanic back before Harper & the change in Divine Crusader Zeal from Doubleshot to Ranged Power.

+4 expanded Crit range, ~40 sustainable doubleshot with ~90 doubleshot w/ Zeal.

I was spending 34 points in BE for Fussilage which could easily be moved to Harper.


I approve of this build.

Bluegirl_Two
03-02-2015, 12:37 PM
Made a quick test drive of OP's concept and ran into one minor problem -- ammunition.

If I gain House Deneith favor I can spend plat (which will be plentiful enough, so the amount is not the issue) to load up on 4 different types of bolts. My best quiver is a very large thin quiver holding 1500 each of 4 different types of bolts. Maybe I can farm several Quivers of Alacrity to hold 1500 each of 3 different types of bolts.

But, at the very least I need to keep a close eye on my ammo supply.

What I am thinking about trying is a variation on OP's idea using a carefully hoarded LR20 heart wood. After using the basic idea to run through multiple heroic past lives (based on personal biases) it might be possible to get to a final life that uses that heart wood at L24 on an elf/sun elf/halfelf that is multiclassed ranger/monk/artificer.

Now the build can get whatever it is taking from the DWS tree, make bolts with artificer levels (and maybe add a rune arm), and perhaps pull 10k stars with monk levels.

Wondering at a split of 12 ranger/6 monk/2 artificer. Or, alternatively, dropping DWS tree and trying something like 9 ranger/6 monk/5 artificer.

Would have to deal with no ki and uncentered while using repeater but might combine the best of both standard monkcher with repeater ranger (repanger, ranpeter?).

Adding in artificer would save 2 feats for repeaters making switch to elf/sun elf/halfelf end up losing only 1 feat. Choosing monk means dropping heavy armor so another 2 feats available.

Fighter/artificer might even be a better build choice if really intent on using heavy armor. Saves 4 feats plus adds fighter feats which can be very specifically geared towards ranged combat. Could do 14/6 getting access to Endless Fusilade in artificer tree. Or, if able to accept robes then fighter/monk/artificer for 10k stars, bonus feats from fighter and monk to compensate for lost ranger feats....

Not OP's original idea, but pros/cons?

Or, is ammo not considered that big of a deal? I'm pretty brain dead when it comes to remembering to restock. But maybe it isn't really an issue.

Oxarhamar
03-02-2015, 01:41 PM
It is a 0 issue so far. Make a level 7 veteran or iconic wizard, and cast flame bolts to conjure stacks of 500 flame bolts at a time from a single normal bolt and shared bank them (they last until you have been logged out a few hours). (I have a 28 sorc for this).

When you hit around lvl 6-7, you will begin to be able to UMD the scroll with persuasion crafted item and heroism pot. Then just carry a 100 stack of scrolls around, and a 100 stack of normal bolts for spell components to make 100 stacks of flame bolts at will.

Hmm, so you are saying If I feat swap from Heavy to Light Repeater at 23 for Needle, I can use a bow or TF light repeaters and get quicken at 18 instead for EE. Hmm I didn't think of that. I could use the epic silver long bow with blunted ammunition with pulverizer for all purpose DR breaking (or just keep using Needle for everything). That seems like a good option. I'll add it to build. I was just worried about champions with 2/3 piercing resists.

Oxarhamar thx for letting me know this will rock in epics! Rawr!


quicken is definitely a survival multiplier in EE.

Just this life I found myself dieing often in EE Detour @lvl 23. First I thought it was lag then, in EE Belly of the beast more dieing & I realized I forgot to turn on Quiken after I ETRed.

I've only run into a Champ with 2/3 Piercing resist once & it was annoying but, I chewed thru it Blitzing with Needle anyway.

unbongwah
03-02-2015, 01:42 PM
You can also use Conjure Bolts scrolls, which takes UMD 29. Although now that I think about it, you'll be able to UMD Flame Arrow first, won't you?

Retrodark
03-02-2015, 01:50 PM
So I just tested special shots and all the repeater and doubleshots are using the special shot. Quadruple sniper shot at level 6 ftw! I can't actually test against normal mobs they don't have enough HP :( Buff champions plz.

In answer to some concerns and questions above, you get heavy + light repeaters to use Needle (light, piercing) + Epic Silver Slinger (heavy, blunt), for handling a variety of mobs and champion buffs for damage resistance.

Since auto attacks by level 3 and sniper shots by 6 hit for hundreds, 1d6 damage imbues aren't and never will be relevant. So no, this isn't an exploit build. Just a simple, basic, ranger build.

I will say one thing though. In terms of leveling, this build tears things up starting at level 1 when you triple hit for 6d10 with a heavy repeater triple shot and PBS, and at level 3, you can hit for around 200, not that it is needed or that you will ever see a mob live through enough bolts to see it in Korthos... GL doing that on ... well ... any other build in the game. So in terms of leveling a ranged ranger, this basic build will bring you 1-20 with ease. No exploits, no complicated multiclassing, no mass synergies and combos. Just raw simple damage to the face. You can use sniper and aimed shot the first 20 lvls to figure out how to weave slayer shots in by 20. Or you can just hold the auto attack button down and watch tons of damage fly. Or just TR at 20.

I can't wait till I start doing penta and sextuple sniper shots, and blitzed Slayer Shots on pinned/whistled targets in LD ... Pew Pew LASERS!!!! I needz moar doubleshot. MOAAARRRRR!!!!

Now is it starting to sink in why AA is a repeater tree? With frozen tunic helpless damage and sneak damage, I should have screenshots breaking 4 digits, but mobs don't have enough hp to get them. :(

I forgot that needle was a light repeater. Do you plan to use TF repeater at all? Still bugs me that they don't just make both repeater types a single feat.

As for AA and LD being repeater trees, the jury is still out.

Frozen tunic for helpless damage...so will you be wearing this mostly during epics. Do you plan to make use of heavy armor (taking 2 feats for it) - though I am not sure what else you would really need to spend them on (maybe emp healing earlier and/or quicken? Make lvl 27 something more EPIC). You are ranged, so a ton of PRR is not really as useful. Even with light armor you can get over 100 PRR pretty easily.

Does shadow striker on shadowscale armor get you another 3% profane doubleshot (says doublestrike, but on wiki it lists it as a source of doubleshot).

Don't get me wrong repeater builds are great for leveling heroics...super easy button at the lower levels. Not sure about EPICS, but I would be interested to see how your build does in person :). I am usually on at night PST.

Also did you figure out if "Killer" gives you the full 20% for repeaters, based on "The Killer buff can stack up to 2/3/4 times. (Repeating Crossbows have a reduced chance to produce extra shots)"

Also, for LD, are you basically going to take con +1 for every tier since everything else is melee based, except critical damage, dev. crit. and blitz? Maybe damage boost if you don't go human and/or haste boost which really doesn't net much on repeaters.

Are you putting all level ups into Int?

unbongwah
03-02-2015, 02:31 PM
Also did you figure out if "Killer" gives you the full 20% for repeaters, based on "The Killer buff can stack up to 2/3/4 times. (Repeating Crossbows have a reduced chance to produce extra shots)"
When Doubleshot first came out, Vargouille said (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/421405-Epic-Feats-Levels-26-28?p=5066196&viewfull=1#post5066196), "Doubleshot converts rate of 1/3 for repeating crossbows." But OP and others have claimed repeaters get full Doubleshot bonuses. This is a pretty important distinction, since it's the difference between 69% Doubleshot being +69% DPS vs only +23%.

Retrodark
03-02-2015, 02:44 PM
My ranger is lvl 6 :) It'll be awhile before I test Killer, but other double shot sources aren't reduced. And I asked in Cannith and others with more knowledge say the same.

I'm a long ways off from setting up a LD scheme. Advancing blow also works in it. I'll also do damage/haste/attack boost/more boosts from LD, to free up points in DWS, and to activate Combat Brute.
I'm betting Oxarhamar has a LD scheme already figured out! I would use that and add pulverizer to it.

I'll was planning on using the OP DR60/Plate at 28 :), and will convert from frozen tunic to heavy black dragonplate armor at 15. I don't know if shadow striker works with ranged but I have a set I'll equip at 28 to find out a long ways from now. The only downside is that then I would have to rename the build 72 ... and that just isn't gonna happen.

So far at 6, what I've noticed is that you want to turn precise shot off, since you want the in-between mobs to also get mowed down in the same volley, and for the crossbow to re-target instead of plowing one mob for twice its max health. Could use more testing.

Yes on Int, but depending on tome levels others may need some dex for CA. I look forward to seeing you in game!


I just TRd and hit level 6 myself last night :).

I just checked on one of my 28s wearing striker armor. It does show the DS go up by 3% when equipped.

Are you going to take damage boost from both human and LD?

Still don't think you need heavy armor.

As for the LD stuff, are the descriptions wrong?

Combat Brute: Passive Bonus: You gain +1[W] damage with melee weapons and deal +50% damage to helpless opponents while any Action Boost is active.

Guess the 50% dmg to helpless probably still works, not sure about the +1[W]

As for advancing blows it says this.

Advancing Blows: Passive Bonus: You gain On Melee Critical Hit +1 to hit and damage for 6 seconds. Stacks 5 times.

Oxarhamar
03-02-2015, 03:22 PM
I just TRd and hit level 6 myself last night :).

I just checked on one of my 28s wearing striker armor. It does show the DS go up by 3% when equipped.

Are you going to take damage boost from both human and LD?

Still don't think you need heavy armor.

As for the LD stuff, are the descriptions wrong?

Combat Brute: Passive Bonus: You gain +1[W] damage with melee weapons and deal +50% damage to helpless opponents while any Action Boost is active.

Guess the 50% dmg to helpless probably still works, not sure about the +1[W]

As for advancing blows it says this.

Advancing Blows: Passive Bonus: You gain On Melee Critical Hit +1 to hit and damage for 6 seconds. Stacks 5 times.

A lot of descriptors are wrong with how they function for Melee & Ranged.

just look at Adrenaline Fury Eternal which descriptor states Melee only but, functions with Ranged.

some may argue that these things working with Ranged are Not WAI but, considering the intended Versatility of the EDs and mix of Melee & Ranged power in them now I call it poor descriptors.

unbongwah
03-02-2015, 03:26 PM
Are you going to take damage boost from both human and LD?
No point, they won't stack; human Dmg Boost and LD Haste Boost, OTOH, will. Technically OP could take Tempest Haste Boost, but that requires 11 APs he doesn't have.

Still don't think you need heavy armor.
Shadow Striker is only available on med or hvy armor; Shadow Guardian is only available on hvy. So if OP plans on Striker, he needs at least med armor prof.

Combat Brute: Passive Bonus: You gain +1[W] damage with melee weapons and deal +50% damage to helpless opponents while any Action Boost is active.

Guess the 50% dmg to helpless probably still works, not sure about the +1[W]
For this build, the +1[W] doesn't really matter; it's the +50% dmg vs helpless targets (and Blitz) you want.

Oxarhamar
03-02-2015, 03:52 PM
http://i58.tinypic.com/2irk9ko.jpg

here's the basic LD set up I use with Repeater

* I do not take Pulverizer since I don't use Silver slinger but, swapping some points around can easily make it accessible.

(1 point spend in Haste boost which is not used to unlock higher tiers) hate to do this but, seams at every turn there are useless point that need spending.


Shadow Armor could offer DR & or Doubleshot if that's one of the goals.

I use Evasion & Black Dragon Scale w/ Precision for Fortification bypass & 5% Damage boost. *Fort bypass is a big reason I find using Needle effective on Undead & Silver Slinger unnessisary.

moo_cow
03-02-2015, 03:59 PM
Needle will be higher DPS than TF on single red names so TF is just for trash @28 there is a thread with the math in Arti sub forum. I'm still not convinced TF w/ Mortalfear is better tha Needle for trash as trash dies often before MF procs.

I'm not sure who did that math but there should be no way a needle pulls ahead of a thunderforged mortal feat for bosses or trash. A thunderforged repeater would completely obliterate a needle. When it comes to trash it will do more damage + mortal fear. On bosses it does more damage + you get the crit bypass of an additional 35%.



Assuming + to damage of 60 on thunderforged and 56 on needle. The difference is +12 (tf) vs +8 on needle. And seeker 15. OC on each.

Needle
2.5[d12]
+1 for deadly
+1 combat archery
= 4.5[d12] (7[d12] if within range of PBS)

- Needle receives 3d8 damage. (Phlebotomizing) = 13.5 damage per hit
- 17-18 x3, 19-20 x4

7[d12] + 56 calculated with 13.5 extra per hit = 170.5 per hit

Thunderforged
4.5[d10]
+1 deadly
+1 combat archery
= 6.5[d10] (11[d10] if within range of PBS)


- Thunderforged receives 8d8 force, 10d6 fire, Armor-Piercing 35%. On Crit: 69 Bleeding Damage. = 36+35+13.8 = 84.8 damage per hit
- 17-18 x2, 19-20 x3


11d10 + 60 calculated with 84.8 damage per hit in additional elemental damage = 239.38 per hit

Even if mobs are not within PBS range the thunderforged is still better.
Even if you add in extra crit multipliers from LD, thunderforged is still ahead.

I may have missed something special arty's have or I may have added in something by accident, but let me know if you see an error.

Oxarhamar
03-02-2015, 04:34 PM
I'm not sure who did that math but there should be no way a needle pulls ahead of a thunderforged mortal feat for bosses or trash. A thunderforged repeater would completely obliterate a needle. When it comes to trash it will do more damage + mortal fear. On bosses it does more damage + you get the crit bypass of an additional 35%.



Assuming + to damage of 60 on thunderforged and 56 on needle. The difference is +12 (tf) vs +8 on needle. And seeker 15. OC on each.

Needle
2.5[d12]
+1 for deadly
+1 combat archery
= 4.5[d12] (7[d12] if within range of PBS)

- Needle receives 3d8 damage. (Phlebotomizing) = 13.5 damage per hit
- 17-18 x3, 19-20 x4

7[d12] + 56 calculated with 13.5 extra per hit = 170.5 per hit

Thunderforged
4.5[d10]
+1 deadly
+1 combat archery
= 6.5[d10] (11[d10] if within range of PBS)


- Thunderforged receives 8d8 force, 10d6 fire, Armor-Piercing 35%. On Crit: 69 Bleeding Damage. = 36+35+13.8 = 84.8 damage per hit
- 17-18 x2, 19-20 x3


11d10 + 60 calculated with 84.8 damage per hit in additional elemental damage = 239.38 per hit

Even if mobs are not within PBS range the thunderforged is still better.
Even if you add in extra crit multipliers from LD, thunderforged is still ahead.

I may have missed something special arty's have or I may have added in something by accident, but let me know if you see an error.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/451407-Don-t-count-Needle-out-yet!-(or-why-your-dps-didn-t-increase-so-much-w-TH-xbows-)

There's the thread

I think the basics are the more additional damage & seeker or Crit enchantments you can add favors Needles increased Multiplier.

For me in game I've see higher base damage with TF but, much lower Criticals.

moo_cow
03-02-2015, 05:02 PM
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/451407-Don-t-count-Needle-out-yet!-(or-why-your-dps-didn-t-increase-so-much-w-TH-xbows-)

There's the thread

I think the basics are the more additional damage & seeker or Crit enchantments you can add favors Needles increased Multiplier.

For me in game I've see higher base damage with TF but, much lower Criticals.

Yea the crits will be higher on the needle. Just from a quick glance at the link it looks like the OP did the math assuming that PBS was only +1[w], but it is actually 2x your weapon base damage as far as my understanding goes.

So instead of 5.5[d12] vs 7[d10] it would be a 7[d12] vs 11[d10]

Oxarhamar
03-02-2015, 05:07 PM
Yea the crits will be higher on the needle. Just from a quick glance at the link it looks like the OP did the math assuming that PBS was only +1[w], but it is actually 2x your weapon base damage as far as my understanding goes.

So instead of 5.5[d12] vs 7[d10] it would be a 7[d12] vs 11[d10]

Not sure where your getting that info PBS is +1 (W)

moo_cow
03-02-2015, 11:02 PM
Not sure where your getting that info PBS is +1 (W)

May have been a misunderstanding on my part, the wiki says at one point that pbs doubles the base damage of your weapon. Read it out of context.

I did the math as well with PBS only adding +1[w] as well and the difference in damage per 1 shot it still 55.52

Oxarhamar
03-02-2015, 11:23 PM
May have been a misunderstanding on my part, the wiki says at one point that pbs doubles the base damage of your weapon. Read it out of context.

I did the math as well with PBS only adding +1[w] as well and the difference in damage per 1 shot it still 55.52

now add in some damage

+20 INT ~50 reasonable easy to get
+10 Know the angles
+ 11 Deadly
+ 3 Arcane PL
+ 3 Monk PL
+ 6 Ranger PL
+ 25 (Ranger Archers Focus) *assuming single target boss DPS
+ 4 Prowess or Epic litany
+ 5 Advancing blows

Add some Seeker

+ 12 Consuming
+ 5 exceptional
+ 2 communion of Handling
+ 6 Seeker from Legendary Dreadnaught
+ 2 Twist Purge the wicked

Add some boosts
+30% boost LD
+20 % boots BF

Add some Ranged Power


+ 70 Blitz
+ 15 Harper


**Sure I'm missing some

The more Damage you add the more Needle will pull ahead do to the higher Multiplier

this is increased by Crit Range & Multiplier effects which on this build in LD is limited to Overwhelming Critical, Devastating Critical, & Pulverizer for Silver slinger (not applicable)

Tilomere
03-03-2015, 01:26 PM
del

Oxarhamar
03-03-2015, 03:05 PM
Sniper shot added into shot rotations tends to favor crit. pretty heavily. The math ends up being more complex then. I think the final result is that if you have Needle, it is good enough for everything. If you have Mortal Fear, more power to you.

Yes & effects like Adrenaline will favor Needle more.

& Needle is good from 23 on Mortal Fear is 28 if in ETR Cycle.

Having both my experience is Needle is generally better in practice where Mortal Fear may shine on IPS large trash groups but, I still find most trash dead before MF even procs, It's probably most useful on the HP bloat 150-300k Orange names who are not immune to cut them down in big chunks.

moo_cow
03-03-2015, 04:10 PM
now add in some damage

+20 INT ~50 reasonable easy to get
+10 Know the angles
+ 11 Deadly
+ 3 Arcane PL
+ 3 Monk PL
+ 6 Ranger PL
+ 25 (Ranger Archers Focus) *assuming single target boss DPS
+ 4 Prowess or Epic litany
+ 5 Advancing blows

Add some Seeker

+ 12 Consuming
+ 5 exceptional
+ 2 communion of Handling
+ 6 Seeker from Legendary Dreadnaught
+ 2 Twist Purge the wicked

Add some boosts
+30% boost LD
+20 % boots BF

Add some Ranged Power


+ 70 Blitz
+ 15 Harper


**Sure I'm missing some

The more Damage you add the more Needle will pull ahead do to the higher Multiplier

this is increased by Crit Range & Multiplier effects which on this build in LD is limited to Overwhelming Critical, Devastating Critical, & Pulverizer for Silver slinger (not applicable)

So lets strip away the added damage from elementals and look at adding in damage boosts and melee power.

- 23 seeker now
- +87 on TF and +83 on needle

Needle

5.5[d12] + 83, 17-18/x3, 19-20/x5

= 202.46 x 1.85(mp) = 374.551 + 13.8 from needle element damage = 388.351

Boosting: 374.551 with 20% damage boost, and 30% damage boost (assuming they stack) = 605.82756 + 13.8 = 619.62756


Thunderforged


7[d10] + 87, 17-18/x2, 19-20/x4

= 183.23 x 1.85 = 338.9755 + 36 + 35 + 13.8 = 423.7755

Boosting: 338.9755 with 20% and 30% = 528.80178 + 36 +35 +13.8 = 613.60178


Max crit with these numbers

Needle
= 1985.568 (688 x 1.85, 20% + 30% damage boost)

Thunderforged

= 1558.44 (540 x 1.85, 20% + 30% damage boost)


So the needle is slightly ahead when dual boosting. This was not counting sniper shot, which would favor the needle as well. I would still use the thunderforged myself. For trash you don't really use action boosts, so the thunderforged is better damage even without counting mortal fear proc. For bosses you gain 35% crit chance which I would still favor over the crit damage from needle, plus you gain the vulnerability from thunderforged which just throws thunderforged much farther ahead. If you wear black you are still down 20% on crits, which doesn't really help the needle's case.

Oxarhamar
03-03-2015, 04:52 PM
So lets strip away the added damage from elementals and look at adding in damage boosts and melee power.

- 23 seeker now
- +87 on TF and +83 on needle

Needle

5.5[d12] + 83, 17-28/x3, 19-20/x5

= 202.46 x 1.85(mp) = 374.551 + 13.8 from needle element damage = 388.351

Boosting: 374.551 with 20% damage boost, and 30% damage boost (assuming they stack) = 605.82756 + 13.8 = 619.62756


Thunderforged


7[d10] + 87, 17-18/x2, 19-20/x4

= 183.23 x 1.85 = 338.9755 + 36 + 35 + 13.8 = 423.7755

Boosting: 338.9755 with 20% and 30% = 528.80178 + 36 +35 +13.8 = 613.60178


Max crit with these numbers

Needle
= 1985.568 (688 x 1.85, 20% + 30% damage boost)

Thunderforged

= 1558.44 (540 x 1.85, 20% + 30% damage boost)


So the needle is slightly ahead when dual boosting. This was not counting sniper shot, which would favor the needle as well. I would still use the thunderforged myself. For trash you don't really use action boosts, so the thunderforged is better damage even without counting mortal fear proc. For bosses you gain 35% crit chance which I would still favor over the crit damage from needle, plus you gain the vulnerability from thunderforged which just throws thunderforged much farther ahead. If you wear black you are still down 20% on crits, which doesn't really help the needle's case.



First I'm not clear on how your doing the calc for seeker at the start.

Second Black Scale upgraded is 20% armor piercing a loss of 15% when stacked with Precision its very effective but, also Blackscale adds 5% Ranged Damage

This max Critical numbers your math has provided on non helpless mobs.

For Needle are extremely low to what I've seen in game.

For TF extremely high for what I see in game.


Still if your convinced it's better feel free to review the math in the other thread again or even challenge it there I'm sure the players who use those weapons will know more about them.

As for not using boost on Trash, I think I have 12 or 13 boosts on my current build which runs %20 & %30 stacking simultaneously from start to finish of EE quests normally have Boosts to spare.

unbongwah
05-28-2015, 03:45 PM
This also means that ranger is in good shape relative to any other repeater users, since the focus of ranger is double shot and active shots which is 100% effective all the time. Mechanics have a lot of their power tied into ranged alacrity tier 5 which doesn't work well with repeaters, as do druids.
If we're talking pure rgr vs pure rog, though, it's about more than just firing rate. Pure rog gets up to 21d6 SAs (10d6 from rog lvls, 4d6 from Assassin enhs, 4d6 from Mechanic enhs, 3d6 from Imp Sneak Atk feat); now that SAs scale w/Melee/Ranged Power, that's a lot of extra dmg per shot over the max 6d6 from DWS. [Though SA DPS is situational, ofc, so it's tough to do an apples-to-apples comparison.] Mechanic also adds +20 Ranged Power (Fletching + Mechanical Reloader), +9 dmg (Sharpshooter + capstone), +10% Doubleshot (Rapid Fire), and +1 crit multiplier (Expert Builder).

So pure rgr has a net gain of +15% Doubleshot (AA cores vs Rapid Fire) as well as Sniper Shot; but even ignoring the Ranged Alacrity bonus, pure rog has a lot of per-shot dmg increases which I think will overshadow the extra Doubleshot.

For me the appeal of pure rgr is versatility due to all the free feats & spells: having good ranged DPS and good melee DPS and self-healing. So were I to do a repeater rgr, I'd probably want a hybrid between this and Bass Ackwards.

Kielbasa
07-18-2015, 07:30 PM
Just starting to roll a character through one of these. I had never run a repeater build before. Until I picked up rapid reload at level 3 the animation for repeaters feels like playing with permanent lag. I may need to figure out an alternative for the first couple levels next life. Now that I finally have rapid reload and int to damage from harper the build is more enjoyable to play and I'm beginning to see some of the power of the build. I am itching to get sniper shot as I prefer to button mash due to a monk habit I can't quit. So far its a very uncomplicated build to play in comparison.

A few questions. What suffix do people like to use on their crafted repeaters? I have tried deception so far since it was cheap to craft but I'm not finding it useful. Would bleed, puncturing, or slowburst be better? I do not cannith craft very often so I don't know if there are any restrictions on craftable ranged weapons.

AbyssalMage
07-19-2015, 05:14 AM
<snip>(darkwood socketed meteoric) repeaters. You don't have to remove the augments before rekeying them for recrafting.

1st - Does Darkwood vs. "normal material" matter on Bows/Repeaters? Never found an answer on Wiki (which doesn't mean a lot 'cause I stink at "searches") and I have always wondered.
2nd - Augments going through the "rekeying" process... Is this WAI or oversight on Turbines part?

Kielbasa
07-28-2015, 09:28 PM
I used Keen of Righteousness and Holy of Undead Bane (darkwood socketed meteoric) repeaters. You don't have to remove the augments before rekeying them for recrafting. After 12, I swapped to Ooze GS, which I found I liked to use on everything 12-28, despite having every single other named repeater in the game (and another +++ repeater). I like righteousness because it gives good bypass and raw damage which can be multiplied by crits. Bleed is good also. Once you get sniper shot, you are going to start wondering why mobs don't have more hp.

I've been leveling up some and sniper shot is indeed as fun as advertised. I am less enamored with aimed shot but it is free damage when it crits and sniper is on cooldown. If I am lacking anywhere it would be in AoE damage. Sloting a meteoric star ruby has helped some and so has colors of the queen I need to knock out a couple more epic lives to max that. Has anyone tried a ToEE repeater with this build? Heroic and/or epic version? I think at the very least the heroic version should work out very nicely until green steel and even as a situational weapon through to 20.

Kielbasa
08-06-2015, 05:23 PM
Finally got my ooze2 repeater so now I'm spamming oozes at my enemies. The face roll is real. Nice job Tilomere and thanks for posting the build. I'm sure its going to be even more ridiculous once I get the ap for arrow of slaying.

Has anyone run a variant of this: 14 paladin/6 ranger through divine crusader? Was thinking of doing that to roll through some divine past lives next time I tr.