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View Full Version : Just read about archmage using phantasmal killer SLA



Bluegirl_Two
02-25-2015, 01:05 PM
Am wondering if it would be worth the kicks and giggles.

What else could be combined with it for situations where PK won't work? What sort of past lives would make the build most effective in landing the PK? What meta magics would be most useful, do quicken and enlarge both work? What epic destiny would be most useful, do any offer additional SLAs that could be of value? Are there any multiclass options that would allow SLAs from multiple classes?

Basically I don't play arcanes much so my knowledge is very limited. So, any help at all is appreciated.

MadCookieQueen
02-25-2015, 01:22 PM
Here's the ones I can answer:

What sort of past lives would make the build most effective in landing the PK?

PK Is subject to spell resistance you'll want bonuses to spell penetration:

3 x FVS the passive grants a total of +3 spell penetration
3 x Wizard grants a total of +6 spell penetration

The active Wizard Past life grants +1 DC of all schools


What meta magics would be most useful, do quicken and enlarge both work?

I'm not sure on the SLA (some SLAs are restricted by what metamagics they can use) but for the base spell Heighten, Quicken and Enlarge do work. I would make heighten and enlarge a priority.

What epic destiny would be most useful, do any offer additional SLAs that could be of value?

Magister for the bonuses to Illusion spell DCs
Twist in Piercing Spellcraft for another +3 spell penetration from Exalted Angel (I believe you'll need spell pen as a feat to meet the requirement and I'm not 100% sure if piercing spellcraft draconic stacks with this)



So you'd have to make Illusion your top DC priority and spell penetration would also be helpful (but except for Drow content it isn't a super huge priority)

Eth
02-25-2015, 01:31 PM
Small sidenote. In Draconic Incarnation Tier 1 you can get +3 DCs to all fear based spells from draconic presence, which raises your PK DC. Makes for a good twist or just take it if you happen to run in Draconic.

SirValentine
02-25-2015, 06:44 PM
Twist in Piercing Spellcraft for another +3 spell penetration from Exalted Angel (I believe you'll need spell pen as a feat to meet the requirement and I'm not 100% sure if piercing spellcraft draconic stacks with this)


Spell pen from Magister & Exalted Angel do not stack with each other.

Spell pen from Draconic & Fatesinger fully stack with either of those above two, and with each other.

Magister & Draconic require the Spell Pen feat as a pre-req. EA & Fatesinger do not.

itstheguy
02-25-2015, 07:21 PM
I've been playing an Illusion based Wizard using the PK and PK SLA primarily and it's a blast. As far as other instant kill spells i use Finger of Death, Wail of the Banshee and Circle of Death as certain mobs are immune to the PK and those can kill them. I also use other spells from other schools such as Evocation, Enchantment ect. when needed. As for enhancements I do Archmage and Harper mostly there is a nice enhancement at top of Harper tree that gives 1DC passive and 10 DC for 10 seconds. I imagine a lot of people would say to go heavy into PM but that's how i do it. I'm at level 18 on second life I'm going to tr at 20 until I'm at 4th life for the 3 DC and 6 Spell Pen then do 20's so I can't speak on the effectiveness of the build in Epic Levels thru personal experience. For Metas I use Quicken, Heighten and Enlarge. Those meta's work on the PK SLA and it still costs 10 SP. Although it's a bit dated there is some good stuff in this post it is what gave me the idea to try the build with a few adjustments (Thanks deathdefy) https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/437641-Scarecrow-Post-U21-Illusion-Wizard

blerkington
02-25-2015, 09:09 PM
Hi,

One thing which makes that SLA so valuable is that it allows access another instakill, making it easier to cycle through them without having to wait for cooldowns to expire. It's also quite cheap SP wise.

A wizard with good DCs in illusion and necromancy seems to be able to cast their instakills continuously with little to no downtime. If you have a very active playstyle and quick fingers, getting out in front of the party means there can be nothing left for anyone else to kill.

I can see the attraction of playing this type of build because a good one verges on being completely OP. But it can be a huge pain in the backside to group with if you're with one and want to do something to help complete a quest apart from beating on bosses.

Thanks.

Bluegirl_Two
02-25-2015, 09:18 PM
Hi,

One thing which makes that SLA so valuable is that it allows access another instakill, making it easier to cycle through them without having to wait for cooldowns to expire. It's also quite cheap SP wise.

A wizard with good DCs in illusion and necromancy seems to be able to cast their instakills continuously with little to no downtime. If you have a very active playstyle and quick fingers, getting out in front of the party means there can be nothing left for anyone else to kill.

I can see the attraction of playing this type of build because a good one verges on being completely OP. But it can be a huge pain in the backside to group with if you're with one and want to do something to help complete a quest apart from beating on bosses.

Thanks.

Here's my concern, the size of my blue bar. The SLA costs almost nothing so lasts pretty much forever. But other spells do use up spell points and putting metas on them just makes it worse. I know how to auto regen hit points but how do I auto regen spell points so that I don't run out.

The appeal to me is that at such low spell point cost the SLA means I can remain active basically forever. How do I avoid running out of spell points if I'm mixing in other spells?

Bluegirl_Two
02-25-2015, 11:46 PM
I can see the attraction of playing this type of build because a good one verges on being completely OP. But it can be a huge pain in the backside to group with if you're with one and want to do something to help complete a quest apart from beating on bosses.

Rereading this. I'm not sure I understand your point here? Wizards get feats for meta magics so can use their other feats in other ways. I can see two for spell penetration and one for a past life. I'd spend one on completionist if it applied. That still leaves enough space for two schools with spell focus and greater spell focus. A wizard could easily work on conjuration as well as illusion and maybe even necromancy or enchantment with a third school depending on how the meta magics worked out.

Seems to me that being really good at killing trash and really good at controlling trash and not shabby at boss fights should be attainable with a little planning. A human wizard will have 8 normal feats and 5 class feats to select. 3 x spell focus, 3 x greater spell focus, 2 x spell penetration, heighten, enlarge, quicken -- still leaves 2 more feats. Past life wizard, completionist? All that by L20 and still all epic feats to work with.

What am I missing?

Ayseifn
02-26-2015, 12:14 AM
Rereading this. I'm not sure I understand your point here? Wizards get feats for meta magics so can use their other feats in other ways. I can see two for spell penetration and one for a past life. I'd spend one on completionist if it applied. That still leaves enough space for two schools with spell focus and greater spell focus. A wizard could easily work on conjuration as well as illusion and maybe even necromancy or enchantment with a third school depending on how the meta magics worked out.

Seems to me that being really good at killing trash and really good at controlling trash and not shabby at boss fights should be attainable with a little planning. A human wizard will have 8 normal feats and 5 class feats to select. 3 x spell focus, 3 x greater spell focus, 2 x spell penetration, heighten, enlarge, quicken -- still leaves 2 more feats. Past life wizard, completionist? All that by L20 and still all epic feats to work with.

What am I missing?

Missing maximize and empower.

blerkington
02-26-2015, 02:15 AM
Here's my concern, the size of my blue bar. The SLA costs almost nothing so lasts pretty much forever. But other spells do use up spell points and putting metas on them just makes it worse. I know how to auto regen hit points but how do I auto regen spell points so that I don't run out.

The appeal to me is that at such low spell point cost the SLA means I can remain active basically forever. How do I avoid running out of spell points if I'm mixing in other spells?

Hi,

At epic levels anyway, running out of SP doesn't seem to be much of a problem for wizards anymore. There are those endurance type quests and raids where this isn't true, but usually it is.

There are usually plenty of shrines, gear that restores SP, and even racial abilities like feywild tap. You can also spend your AP on enhancements which make metamagics much more efficient, including heighten.

I'm not hugely experienced at playing a wizard, though I have run most content on EE with mine. My own one is specced for CC and energy burst with the evocation archmage line so that he can easily switch between shiradi and DC casting without having to reset his enhancements.

He can get to a 67 DC in enchantment, which is well below what is possible but enough to be a useful in most content. He also has two rogue levels and is built for utility rather than just as a pure DC casting specialist.

I agree with the suggestion that you take maximize at least, if not empower as well, because there will be times you need to do some damage. I also think enlarge is hugely useful, though not everyone would agree with that.

If you need to sacrifice feats to get these, I'd suggest less spell pen. When you fight epic drow you can just use spells that don't require a spell pen check, like web and greater shout.

You can get your spell pen high enough for almost everything without investing a lot of feats in it, and just work around the those few creatures with amazingly high spell resistance. Some cleric and wizard past lives help a lot with your web DC and spell pen too.

I see some other people in this thread who are far more experienced at running arcanes than I am, so maybe they can chime in with some more specific build advice too.

Thanks.

bonscott87
02-26-2015, 09:23 AM
Here's my concern, the size of my blue bar. The SLA costs almost nothing so lasts pretty much forever. But other spells do use up spell points and putting metas on them just makes it worse. I know how to auto regen hit points but how do I auto regen spell points so that I don't run out.

The appeal to me is that at such low spell point cost the SLA means I can remain active basically forever. How do I avoid running out of spell points if I'm mixing in other spells?

You can pick and choose what spells use metas and which don't. First, the metas are like a stance which you can turn on and off. I typically turn them all on. Then, if I have a spell I don't want certain metas to be active you right-click the spell on your bar and you'll get a popup menu which you can individually select which ones to turn off. You could also go the other way with leaving your metas off and then turning them on for various spell shortcuts on your bar. AND you can do both. So let's say I have all my metas turned on all the time. I then have the Firewall spell with all of them active by default. I could then drag Firewall spell to another spot on the bar and turn off some of the metas to save spellpoints. Why would I do this? Say I know I don't need a fully metaed firewall for the upcoming mob I could use the lesser one to save SP. Also, if I'm running low and it's a ways to a shrine then I could start using the non-metaed version. Same for say Negative Energy burst for healing while in undead form. If I need just a small bit of healing then I'll use the non-metaed version and save the SP. Why waste SP for 150 pts of healing when I only need 50.

As for regen of SP:
1) As noted use the shrines even if the rest of the group doesn't. Helps to know where the shrines are and how many in each quest.
2) SP Pots are typically given out with daily dice rolls, save 'em up for your blue bar toons. SP pots will also drop in quests from time to time and let your guildies or group know that you'd appreciate if they would leave the pots for you in the chests, you can even give them some plat or something if they insist.
3) Clerics with Divine Vitality. Either a cleric in the party or hireling, many will have Divine Vitality which will restore sometimes hundreds of SP until they run out of uses. Can even use the low level gold seal cleric that comes with the starter pack in the DDO Market, summon and park at the entrance and if you need to Dim Door back to her, get your SP and dismiss.
4) Items...there are a few items of note that can regen SP.
Easiest to get is the Archivist Necklace from the end reward for Misery's Peak in Korthos. Two uses per rest and you'll get back 30-75 total from that. I take that reward with any blue bar toon. Usefull to end game. Now obviously if you have 2000 SP getting 75 back isn't much, but it's really useful for leveling and that 75 can be enough to heal yourself with Neg Energy Burst.
Twisted Talisman - End chest in the Last Stand in the Red Fens. Took me about 10 runs for it to finally drop, bound to account and thus can be passed from toon to toon. Exchanges 25 hit points for 50 spell points. Great for Pale Masters but good for non as well since you can easily drink a couple heal pots.
Ring of Spell Storing is the best one, found in a rare chest in the Sands. I've never got it to drop but I think I've seen it in the auction house for lots and lots of plat. :)

Hope that helps!

General_Gronker
02-27-2015, 09:18 AM
75 can be enough to heal yourself with Neg Energy Burst. Or toss up an emergency DDoor so you can take a few moments to ponder what to do if the quest has gone mostly fubar.

Ring of Spell Storing is the best one, found in a rare chest in the Sands. I've never got it to drop but I think I've seen it in the auction house for lots and lots of plat. :) I've had it drop twice in 9 years. Kept one (still swap it to all my casters), sold the other for lots of plat. But honestly, it's not that great. It's 25 sp, 3 uses per rest. Unless you're a capped artificer, then it's like 100 sp or so. Good for "oh ****!" emergency spell points, but that's all.

Good advice overall.

PpalP
02-27-2015, 09:30 AM
Don't forget to run Weapon Shipment to get the Mysterious Bauble (100-600 SP 1x/clicky) and if you get the Torc the regen is pretty nice

Bluegirl_Two
02-27-2015, 10:22 AM
Missing maximize and empower.

If I go just for the PK and crowd control I could skip one or both of these, yes/no?

bonscott87
02-27-2015, 10:40 AM
If I go just for the PK and crowd control I could skip one or both of these, yes/no?

You could I guess but you'll still want offensive spells like Firewall and Cone of Cold. They pretty much suck at higher levels if not metaed as the mobs will save against them and they will do much less damage. Wizards get so many bonus feats it's hard to not find room for these...depending on build of course.

Enoach
02-27-2015, 10:52 AM
If I go just for the PK and crowd control I could skip one or both of these, yes/no?

Maximize and Empower on a Insta-Kill/CC caster are still useful for all situations where Insta-Kill/CC is not. As a wizard with bonus Metamagic feats it is usually possible to get at least one of those in. If you can only fit in one go with Maximize.

I recommend still having both as it will go a long way in helping you not run through a whole quest without breaking a sweat only to be denied a completion because the Red Boss kills you because you cannot produce enough DPS.

Bluegirl_Two
02-28-2015, 07:22 PM
So, the assumption on Maximize and Empower is that I'm either soloing so I have to kill the boss or that the rest of the group is just so bad that the wizard has to do all the work -- like killing the boss.


A human wizard will have 8 normal feats and 5 class feats to select. 3 x spell focus, 3 x greater spell focus, 2 x spell penetration, heighten, enlarge, quicken -- still leaves 2 more feats. Past life wizard, completionist? All that by L20 and still all epic feats to work with.

So, here's the thought process and why I'm wondering about Maximize and Empower. A human wizard will only have 13 feats to work with.

01 - Spell Focus: Illusion
02 - Spell Focus: Conjuration
03 - Spell Focus: Enchantment/Evocation/Necromancy (more crowd control/offensive/instant kill spells -- which?)
04 - Greater Spell Focus: Illusion
05 - Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration
06 - Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment/Evocation/Necromancy (more crowd control/offensive/instant kill spells -- which?)
07 - Spell Penetration
08 - Greater Spell Penetration
09 - Heighten
10 - Enlarge
11 - Quicken
12 - Past Life: Wizard
13 - Completionist

So, where do I fit in Maximize and Empower? My only thought is to drop the 3rd spell focus/greater spell focus and go with no save spells like Magic/Chain/Force Missile or Niac's Biting Cold or Eladar's Electric Surge (or all of them).

I'm assuming Epic Spell Focus illusion. That leaves 2 epic feat slots. So, what goes in those epic feats -- my thought is Ruin and Epic Spell Penetration. I'm still stuck for 2 feats.

Epic destiny feats don't help either. For those I'm assuming Epic Spell Power -- probably Force and either Cold or Electricity.

So, I'm still struggling to figure how to fit in Maximize and Empower.

Grace_ana
02-28-2015, 08:48 PM
Either drop the conjuration spell focus feats or drop one and enlarge. Empower and Maximize are far more useful.

Mercureal
02-28-2015, 09:20 PM
Don't forget to run Weapon Shipment to get the Mysterious Bauble (100-600 SP 1x/clicky) and if you get the Torc the regen is pretty nice

Torc + a Concordant Opposition item from the Shroud stack and can give back a lot of SP. The ConOpp might be a bit tricky if one doesn't already have the materials, since you need to find Shroud Groups. But the Torc can be solo-farmed if you have the patience. I got one on my first life cleric by just running it solo every 3-4 days 'til I got the 20th completion reward. ADQ1 is good XP at epic levels and can be done somewhat quickly once you're familiar with it. A heroic run of ADQ2 takes 5-10 minutes.

I regularly find myself getting 100s of SP from those items in a normal quest, without deliberately "Torcing-up".

blerkington
02-28-2015, 09:35 PM
So, I'm still struggling to figure how to fit in Maximize and Empower.

Hi,

I think there are too many feats spent on boosting your DCs, and I don't think greater spell penetration is needed. There's plenty of room for maximize, empower and even enlarge in your list.

When I was working out how to spec my wizard, I found this very useful:
< https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/405017-Pale-Master-Guide >.

Even if you don't intend to be a PM, you will find the sections about how much spell pen is needed, and how you can work around not meeting the requirements for EE drow, particularly useful.

Thanks.

Bluegirl_Two
02-28-2015, 11:17 PM
Either drop the conjuration spell focus feats or drop one and enlarge. Empower and Maximize are far more useful.

Well, conjuration is for Web which is for crowd control and, unless I go a different route for CC, I can't realistically see that option. Enlarge is so I don't have to get close enough to trigger attention but still be in range to cast the spell. That is important if I don't want mobs throwing massive Death Ward spells and destroying the main reason to give the build a try.

So, the alternatives in my thinking are to go illusion/evocation and instant kill with PK plus nuke with whatever or to go illusion/enchantment and try to turn mobs into a personal army or go illusion/necromancy and try undead form with negative energy spells for damage.

Combining illusion/necromancy would let me take a lot from Pale Master which could be a good source of self healing in most quests. Going illusion/evocation would let me rely primarily on SLAs from Archmage for all damage but leaves me with no crowd control.

So hard to make the choices. But thanks to everyone who has helped so far. It is bringing up things I had not considered.

bonscott87
03-01-2015, 08:06 PM
Just depends if you want to do CC or not. Personally I never bother with CC, everything is dead too quickly for me to worry about it. LOL

From what I gather with spell penetration it is kinda like the old way AC was, you either have godly amount or it just doesn't matter so I really wouldn't waste a feat on it. Don't think you need the feats for Conjuration either, again a couple extra DC I don't think will matter much for web, especially Heroic levels. Dunno if web is effecting on Epic Elite anyway but that might be something to research.

Maximize and Empower are really bread and butter feats for damage dealing and you really want them on your DOTs for bosses at the least.

Again, just my opinion. If you're going for a specific flavor build then rock on!

Bluegirl_Two
03-01-2015, 11:03 PM
From what I read a long time back it is really hard to get stuff thru SR in the higher level epics. Way back when I read that it was recommended to have several past lives. My current wizard has 3 x FvS and 2 x Wiz and is not far from being able to reincarnate again. I think that is all of the spell penetration I can get from past lives. Rest of spell penetration is about gear/enhancements/feats. Gear I have or can get. Leaves only feats.

PK is subject to SR so to even get to the DC part it has to get thru SR. That doesn't mean much in heroic levels but I'm assuming that it will mean something in epics.

Web isn't subject to SR so it is all about the DC. I read that web can be useful in epics if the DC is high enough. To get DC to the highest numbers takes Heighten (for maximum spell level) + INT (modifier) + gear/enhancements/feats (+ 10). I do know that I've run heroic elite Servants of the Overlord and run into trouble with zerg groups in the first fight. With heightened web I've been able to stop the drow cold and change the whole dynamics of the encounters.

My thinking is if it works in that context it should work in most epic content and even epic hard.

But, you could be right. The way players bust through content there often isn't much demand for crowd control.

I'll keep pondering. :D

bonscott87
03-02-2015, 08:07 AM
But, you could be right. The way players bust through content there often isn't much demand for crowd control.

I'll keep pondering. :D

Yea, and could just be the group(s) you play with too. My last wizard I played I was getting frustrated even using things like Firewall because by the time it was up just about everything was dead and I just wasted lots of SP. I don't even bother with crowd control anymore other then disco ball, mainly because it's fun and everyone else will usually actually wait a couple seconds for it go off because they like to see the dancing mobs. LOL

So as much as I love to play spellcasters, Pale Masters in particular I've gone back to playing melee. That wizard above I actually respeced to a Vampire Knight type build with Harper INT enhancements and basically played it as a melee with some spells here and there. Fun, but if I'm doing a melee might as well just *do a melee*, if you know what I mean.

General_Gronker
03-02-2015, 08:51 AM
there often isn't much demand for crowd control.

Depends on what's being run. You sure can't legitimately make a generalization like that though.