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View Full Version : So, um, yeah... how 'bout that TWF?



Deslen
02-23-2015, 01:17 PM
I've been playing this game for years. I played a dual wielding fighter back in the day when clerics told melees to put a shield in their off hand.

I played TWF as a tank until Turbine smacked me on the wrist and told me I couldn't be a real stalwart defender unless I equipped that shield.

At that point, I started TRing while looking for a fun way to play my main. I was thrilled to no end when I discovered I could once again gain the full benefits of stalwart in heavy or medium armor. That was what I had always used.

Now I am 3 lives away from completionist and 2 lives from epic completionist, and I find that my beloved TWF is dead last in terms of overall DPS.

I shall continue to dual wield, as it is what I enjoy, but is a level playing field too much to ask for?

Spoonwelder
02-23-2015, 02:00 PM
I feel your pain - my main is a TWF - not only do we get the pain of doubling up our gear but the DPS is a bit lower. Although, On my main I still do pretty darn good even in EE such that I never feel like I am not pulling my weight.

That said for me the real issue is the attack range - I did some testing a while backhttps://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/449743-Regarding-TWFing?p=5446944#post5446944 and TWF has a significantly shorter attack range (3ft vs 5ft) than SWF/THF/S&B or even monks with no apparent reason. Basically it feels like you have to hump the mobs leg to attack and thus circle strafing (for damage mitigation) and attacking is much less effective on a TWF.

Dandonk
02-23-2015, 02:04 PM
I feel your pain - my main is a TWF - not only do we get the pain of doubling up our gear but the DPS is a bit lower. Although, On my main I still do pretty darn good even in EE such that I never feel like I am not pulling my weight.

That said for me the real issue is the attack range - I did some testing a while backhttps://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/449743-Regarding-TWFing?p=5446944#post5446944 and TWF has a significantly shorter attack range (3ft vs 5ft) than SWF/THF/S&B or even monks with no apparent reason. Basically it feels like you have to hump the mobs leg to attack and thus circle strafing (for damage mitigation) and attacking is much less effective on a TWF.

I agree on both points. First, you get the joy of having to grind for two weapons... and then end up with somewhat lower DPS for your trouble.

And... I used to love playing TWF. And the I tried THF and later SWF and S&B. I cannot go back to TWF now. The lack of attack range annoys me so much whenever I log into one of my old leftover TWF alts that I log back after one quest.

luvirini
02-23-2015, 02:11 PM
Now I am 3 lives away from completionist and 2 lives from epic completionist, and I find that my beloved TWF is dead last in terms of overall DPS.

I shall continue to dual wield, as it is what I enjoy, but is a level playing field too much to ask for?

This in indeed too true. I did 4 melee lives(*3 epic parts in all but ranger that was only *2 the epic parts) on Anilee after armor up changes and the most painful one was the ranger twf life due to the low DPS. It was so painful in fact that I just could not run third time 20-28.

Severlin
02-23-2015, 02:13 PM
The attack range issue is something we'd like to look into. Our resources are tied up at the moment but it's on our list.

Sev~

dualscissors
02-23-2015, 02:34 PM
While it is more intensive to build 2 green steel weapons or 2 thunderforged instead of 1, that overlooks the perk of having 2x the chances to proc and extra augment slots. I'm happy to work harder to get more payoff on those fronts.

The short reach of TWF is indeed less fun than having longer reach. I find this most relevant when trying to smack mobs that are running by or away from me.

As for the lines and damage, I was under the impression they were pretty close as damage over time with the full TWF line completed. I guess I should add that glancing blows where there is a concentration of mobs probably throws a curve ball into this. Is this view demonstratably incorrect?

Monkey-Boy
02-23-2015, 02:37 PM
The attack range issue is something we'd like to look into. Our resources are tied up at the moment but it's on our list.

Sev~

I wouldn't care about the attack range if the DPS was up to snuff compared to the other styles.

Spoonwelder
02-23-2015, 02:38 PM
The attack range issue is something we'd like to look into. Our resources are tied up at the moment but it's on our list.

Sev~
Thank you....that is good to hear. Even if it's at the bottom of the list its better than not being there at all.

Spoonwelder
02-23-2015, 02:54 PM
While it is more intensive to build 2 green steel weapons or 2 thunderforged instead of 1, that overlooks the perk of having 2x the chances to proc and extra augment slots. I'm happy to work harder to get more payoff on those fronts.

The short reach of TWF is indeed less fun than having longer reach. I find this most relevant when trying to smack mobs that are running by or away from me.

As for the lines and damage, I was under the impression they were pretty close as damage over time with the full TWF line completed. I guess I should add that glancing blows where there is a concentration of mobs probably throws a curve ball into this. Is this view demonstratably incorrect?

Actually on my main (15/3/2 Pally,Ranger,Fighter) - fully geared out - tier2 TF Khopesh I don't really feel my dps is lacking - not in a game breaking fashion in my mind. I would say I average about 3000-4000DPSecond as I can take out the 80k HP giant in Trackers Trap EH in one 20second action boost (this would be blitzing & fully boosted DPS including damage and haste boost and divine might so average would be somewhat lower).

That said - Lines of supply - I could solo on my THF (prior life) and not lose any mobs as I could hit those spinting gnolls while chasing them if they got away...On my TWF I can solo it but usually lose at least one or two gnolls due not getting that last few HP as they run away. This is about range of attack not DPS.

Thar
02-23-2015, 02:54 PM
The attack range issue is something we'd like to look into. Our resources are tied up at the moment but it's on our list.

Sev~

It's not only attack range issue. it's attack speed, no melee power, light weapons, crappy enhancements, etc etc. To use twf to max to hit and dex to damage you need to use light weapons so you lose the big hits of khopesh, bastard sword (not that i think these should be added), you take half damage on off hand weapon, lose ability to do tactics, etc. your damage isn't up to par with a single weapon fighter who not only attacks faster but gets more damage! same weapon and my ranger is doing 50s vs double on a bard. Attack speed is slower. and only cleave attack easily obtained with dex like feats is whirlwhind which is broken compared to monks who get multitude of hits per whirlwind vs the slow double spin on a melee.

Melee rangers need a dps fix in many ways.

i'd be happy to go in pvp pit and demonstrate with my first life bard vs my 36 pt ranger with multitude of past lives.

Thar
02-23-2015, 02:58 PM
Actually on my main (15/3/2 Pally,Ranger,Fighter) - fully geared out - tier2 TF Khopesh I don't really feel my dps is lacking - not in a game breaking fashion in my mind. I would say I average about 3000-4000DPSecond as I can take out the 80k HP giant in Trackers Trap EH in one 20second action boost (this would be blitzing & fully boosted DPS including damage and haste boost and divine might so average would be somewhat lower).

That said - Lines of supply - I could solo on my THF (prior life) and not lose any mobs as I could hit those spinting gnolls while chasing them if they got away...On my TWF I can solo it but usually lose at least one or two gnolls due not getting that last few HP as they run away. This is about range of attack not DPS.

pally + blitz + khopesh is a good combo but not really applicable to all toons that twf. full ranger twf with rapiers can't come close to 10% of that. (non blitzing as you shouldn't compare anything to a destiny power since not everyone can or will use, ie arcane past life time...)

General_Gronker
02-23-2015, 02:59 PM
but is a level playing field too much to ask for?
By level playing field, you're pretty clearly talking about damage output. And they should NOT all have the same basic damage output. They should all have pretty balanced pros and cons though, and I don't think they're at that point yet.

Personally, in terms of damage out put, I think they should rank like:
1. Two-handed fighting
2. Two-weapon Fighting
3. Single weapon fighting/sword & board

And I say that as someone who prefers playing S&B melee over the rest.

JamnJD
02-23-2015, 03:20 PM
I wouldn't care about the attack range if the DPS was up to snuff compared to the other styles.

Well, increasing the hit box would do wonders for DPS. After all, if you can't land the attacks, your DPS is 0. Mobs move around a lot more now too, and the attack range is definitely not up to par. So personally, I would like to see this changed first to see how it goes.

I'm glad this is on the list. I may one day start playing my twf rogue again ^ ^

...J

TackW5
02-23-2015, 03:24 PM
The attack range issue is something we'd like to look into. Our resources are tied up at the moment but it's on our list.

Sev~

The attack range weakness is particularly aggravating with Dance of Death. Yes, I can hit several mobs at once, IF I can get them to stand intertwined as if they are playing a game of Twister. I might be able to pack 4 dancing elves together, but hitting more than 1 ogre or troll takes ridiculous positioning.

Paleus
02-23-2015, 03:29 PM
I wouldn't care about the attack range if the DPS was up to snuff compared to the other styles.

That's a pretty limited view point of the problem, one probably informed by only thinking of DPS in terms of base damage. Refer to the following quote for an illustration:


Lines of supply - I could solo on my THF (prior life) and not lose any mobs as I could hit those spinting gnolls while chasing them if they got away...On my TWF I can solo it but usually lose at least one or two gnolls due not getting that last few HP as they run away. This is about range of attack not DPS.

The attack range matters because if you can't hit a target, your DPS is zero. So even if you assume both styles had similar damage output, one would always pull ahead. That should be fairly obvious.

Additionally, I'm hoping that the definition of "DPS" isn't meant to say fully equivalent damage. Each style should have pros and cons to it that will balance each other out. My thoughts are that the conversation is best when it expands to things like how a combination of improved tactics and procs would weigh in favor of TWF while THF would be weighted towards raw damage, and further differnetation for SWF and S&B. If all we focus on is "up to snuff" DPS, which usually just means the Melee Power number, then we make the game less diverse.

Spoonwelder
02-23-2015, 03:50 PM
pally + blitz + khopesh is a good combo but not really applicable to all toons that twf. full ranger twf with rapiers can't come close to 10% of that. (non blitzing as you shouldn't compare anything to a destiny power since not everyone can or will use, ie arcane past life time...)
I was just pointing out that a top tier TWF does more than decent DPS......if you don't build to be top tier DPS guess what... you won't be.

Dex based damage will never be top tier as there aren't as many sources of dex boost - I would say you are 20pts or so of dex vs. a Str build - thats 10dmg per swing boosted by crits. You are also limiting your weapon choice to rapiers on light weapons (assuming you are going best of best in that category).

What you get in return on a dex build is higher Reflex save and subject to MDB - better AC - so that should translate to higher surviveability.

Munkenmo
02-23-2015, 03:53 PM
The attack range issue is something we'd like to look into. Our resources are tied up at the moment but it's on our list.

Sev~

Sev, adding melee power to the 2wf feats would be a welcome addition too.

Spoonwelder
02-23-2015, 03:55 PM
The attack range matters because if you can't hit a target, your DPS is zero. So even if you assume both styles had similar damage output, one would always pull ahead. That should be fairly obvious.

Additionally, I'm hoping that the definition of "DPS" isn't meant to say fully equivalent damage. Each style should have pros and cons to it that will balance each other out. My thoughts are that the conversation is best when it expands to things like how a combination of improved tactics and procs would weigh in favor of TWF while THF would be weighted towards raw damage, and further differnetation for SWF and S&B. If all we focus on is "up to snuff" DPS, which usually just means the Melee Power number, then we make the game less diverse.
I think we are actually agreeing and you misread my point - "This is about range of attack not DPS."

My comparison though was a THF vs a TWF - virtually the same build (STR based Pally+splash) and gear (Thunderforged Tier 2). The THF came out ahead overall mostly because he could deal with the runners better than the TWF - all other parts were about the same - giants died fast to both, orc etc.... all died fast either way. It was the runners and the related lost DPS from not reaching them at all.

Once you get used to it TW-hump-F isn't bad except when you are fighting mobile mobs.

Munkenmo
02-23-2015, 03:55 PM
While it is more intensive to build 2 green steel weapons or 2 thunderforged instead of 1, that overlooks the perk of having 2x the chances to proc and extra augment slots. I'm happy to work harder to get more payoff on those fronts.

The benefits of off hand procs is made up for via 2hf's glancing blows.

A lot of us are happy to get the payoff for the extra equipment slot, but when your dps is comparable to sword & board there's something wrong.

Paleus
02-23-2015, 05:15 PM
I think we are actually agreeing and you misread my point - "This is about range of attack not DPS." .

Sorry, bad formatting on my part. You're right, we do agree. I was using your post as an illustration to another poster, not responding to it

Deslen
02-23-2015, 06:26 PM
Personally, in terms of damage out put, I think they should rank like:
1. Two-handed fighting
2. Two-weapon Fighting
3. Single weapon fighting/sword & board


I think TWF should be better for single target, THF for group, and SWF or SNB a little behind but still comparable.

I wasn't even aware of the range issue, 'cuz I'm used to getting up close and personal.

The feats/damage really need an upgrade. Maybe make each feat give more off hand str damage, and an amount of rend?

Erofen
02-23-2015, 09:20 PM
I think TWF should be better for single target, THF for group, and SWF or SNB a little behind but still comparable.

I wasn't even aware of the range issue, 'cuz I'm used to getting up close and personal.

The feats/damage really need an upgrade. Maybe make each feat give more off hand str damage, and an amount of rend?
The problem with this is most mobs are always in big groups, though theoretically this makes sense.

Yah TWF range sucks when you are chasing mobs from kiters.

No clue what you are saying here. More off hand strength damage? rend?

Rykka
02-23-2015, 10:04 PM
Well I've said this before, others have said it in this thread and for a long time, and Sev the Dev has said they're looking at it... but it was the terrible weapon range that bothered me most about TWFing originally.

Powskier
02-23-2015, 10:22 PM
speed is the key to TWF , for my builds at least. Dont need a huge #, just 15%-20% is huge difference. I can keep up my end of the killing with two weapon..if I could only run for some tier 3 crackforge,but laaag is not worth that. Dwarves can go two weapon easier it feels like,for there a lot of weapons for them in auctions and the dwarf ax multiplier is nice. I have a ftr /thf also w Two weapon/rather effective even as 1st life since blinding speed added and I got deception ring.

blerkington
02-23-2015, 10:25 PM
Hi,

The way I understood it was TWF was considered to be well balanced.

That is because everyone who uses it is a tempest ranger with a particular set of enhancements and two mortal fear weapons.

Oh wait ... that's not even remotely true.

Thanks.

Alternative
02-24-2015, 01:58 AM
TWF needs more than just range to be viable, take cleaves for example, if I take cleave feats, and build two weapons, I expect both those weapons to hit, otherwise there's just no point.

Also monks. Unarmed. Or make monk tactical feats work with weapons.

Seikojin
02-24-2015, 02:49 AM
I have noticed the range thing, but I have yet to see a problem with dps.

Chaimberland
02-24-2015, 08:40 AM
Your range using TWF should be less than THF. You are using smaller weapons so it only makes sense to me. DPS could be a little better.

Deslen
02-24-2015, 08:43 AM
Your range using TWF should be less than THF. You are using smaller weapons so it only makes sense to me. DPS could be a little better.

I'll buy that vs THF, but not SWF or S&B.

RockHeavy
02-24-2015, 09:01 AM
Your range using TWF should be less than THF. You are using smaller weapons so it only makes sense to me. DPS could be a little better.

Agreed on the TWF vs THF comparison. However, an single weapon fighter or unarmed monk should not have a greater attack range than the same toon using 2 khopeshes. That is the problem we have currently.

Saekee
02-24-2015, 09:05 AM
I think TWF should be better for single target, THF for group, and SWF or SNB a little behind but still comparable.

I agree--TWF should be top single-target DPS.
The range aspect came up in the Book of Measurements thread. I wonder if it affects Stars of Day/Celestia? I don't seem to have range issues with those in hand but need to test it--now I am curious.

I thought unarmed got a range boost due to the kicking animation--long legs. . .

TWF also loses in other categories besides range, cleaves and melee power. The main one I can think of is doublestrike--it only affects the mainhand. All other styles get more out of it. This is a biggie considering EPL boosts and other enhancement and gear boosts.

The extra offhand percentage boost for tempests and monks costs precious AP. With AP starved builds, those 7 dropped into deft strikes become envied, especially for my builds (flavor, I know).

Dex builds once had a bug in which the offhand gave full dex to damage. That was changed. I wish they would bring it back, would make my Dex flavor builds more viable.

Grailhawk
02-24-2015, 09:22 AM
IMO all combat styles should provide an equal boost to damage (both AOE and single target) but should play differently, TWF should make more attacks then the other styles but for less damage (fast attack style), THF should make less attacks but each attack should be a lot of damage (big numbers style), and SWF should be some where in between (faster then THF slower then TWF harder hitting then TWF but softer then THF).

The steps to do this would be:

1) Adjust all attack animations so that they have the same swing speed, and any +x% Alacrity bonues has the exact same effect regardless of style (80 Attacks per minute (1.33 aps) would be the base number I aim for at BaB 20 so 15% Haste bonus would get you to 92 attacks per minute (1.53 aps).

2) Remove the 1.5x STR bonues from THF and SWF, also remove the 0.5x Stat to Offhand attacks.

3) Give Two Handed Fighting a base +20% damage boost (just like TWF has a base 20% off hand proc rate).

4a) Change the Sytle feats to do the following:
TWF: each feat adds +20% off hand proc rate as it does not
THF: each feat adds +20% Damage bonus
SWF: +15% Double Strike +15% Damage Bonus (Total of 32.25% bonus vs THF/TWF 40% bonus at one feat)
ISWF: +26.4% Double Strike +26.4% Damage Bonus (Total of 59.76% bonus vs THF/TWF 60% Bonus at two feat)
GSWF: +34.17% Double Strike + 34.17% Damage bonus (Total of 80.02% Bonues vs THF/TWF 80% Bonus at 3 Feat)

4b) Shield Feats should loose all offensive bonus and only provide defense.

4c) A new combat style can be added to keep glancing blows in the game it should stack with TWF/THF/SWF/S&B but cap at 40% bonus to total damage at 3 feat.

5) Offhand Strikes should produce Double Strikes, and Attacks like Cleave that do not currently proc offhand attacks should now produce offhand attacks. Further any other bias to combat styles should be removed from the game remember the goal is to make the styles feel different but have similar power if there is a bias towards one style or another anywhere in the game that overpowers that one style.

Given these changed TWF would be the high number of attacks low damage style, THF would be the big numbers damage low number off attacks style, SWF would be some where in the middle of the other two. Yet all styles would provide the same ~80% bonus to total damage.

I don't think that this will ever happen but it would be nice as it would keep combat styles balanced.

Chaimberland
02-24-2015, 10:11 AM
Agreed on the TWF vs THF comparison. However, an single weapon fighter or unarmed monk should not have a greater attack range than the same toon using 2 khopeshes. That is the problem we have currently.

I agree with you and Deslen that a single weapon fighter or unarmed monk should not have a longer range than TWF. SWF should be the same and unarmed a little less.

nobdog
02-24-2015, 10:16 AM
Combine the tiny hit box with the slowest moving attack animation in game(The row your boat maneuver), and have fun losing half of your potential DPS just trying to reposition yourself to hit mobs that are hitting you in melee. Any other style you barely lose any attack speed moving, but TwF you lose seconds worth of attacks every single time you have to move a hair(which you have to do every single time you switch targets, because mobs only ever close to normal melee range, not kissing range).

In perfect conditions, TWF is still not the best option, in real conditions it is frustratingly limited.

I dont think TWF should be the best DPS, it should be used for builds like rogues to maximize sneak, and to exploit other "on hit" effects like that, but it should still be a viable option for a straight up fighter. On paper it is at least viable, but in practice any time you have to adjust or move your dps becomes a joke.

Knightsubzero
02-26-2015, 12:53 AM
two weapon fighting should be the most powerful type of fighting, you sacrifice defence, which should make it more powerful than a shield wielder, you have two dam weapons! which should make it more powerful than a single weapon, and you should be able to attack faster than a two hander.

its a bit lame that its now the lowest.

also, ranger need pets.

Chaios
02-26-2015, 01:53 AM
While it is more intensive to build 2 green steel weapons or 2 thunderforged instead of 1, that overlooks the perk of having 2x the chances to proc and extra augment slots. I'm happy to work harder to get more payoff on those fronts.

I agree with dualscissors. The extra item slot is worth "the grind" (the idea that doing work to improve an advantage is unreasonable tickles me, thanks!) of getting the second weapon. The extra item slot is worth doing less damage than either a two handed or a single weapon fighter. Each of those styles sacrifices the use of an off-hand item, offensive or defensive, and that sacrifice should be worth something.


two weapon fighting should be the most powerful type of fighting, you sacrifice defence...
Only if you don't know a better way... http://deadliestwarrior.wikia.com/wiki/Rapier_and_Main_Gauche