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Phanes
02-09-2015, 03:34 PM
I was going to run a dungeon the other day ago and I set it for Elite. A member in my party told me I should run it on Hard first then repeat it on Elite for a bonus. Is there an advantage to doing a dungeon twice on different settings?

count_spicoli
02-09-2015, 03:41 PM
I was going to run a dungeon the other day ago and I set it for Elite. A member in my party told me I should run it on Hard first then repeat it on Elite for a bonus. Is there an advantage to doing a dungeon twice on different settings?

Yes but he had it backwards. Elite for bb which is big xp bonus once you have a streak of 5 or more going. Then hard which you get a bonus for first time hard ccompleton.

More than likely he had done it on elite already and just wanted the hard bonus. Probably dropped group right after hard run.

Sehenry03
02-09-2015, 03:42 PM
For max bonus you ALWAYS want to run Elite first then whatever after that. Bravery Bonus on Elite gives +50% xp while BB on hard give +25%. You have to run 5 consecutive dungeons in a row to get the full bonus though.

Qhualor
02-09-2015, 03:46 PM
before going any further with advice, is the OP a new/er player? has the OP been previously doing elites? I think these are important questions to ask before saying "run elite first".

unbongwah
02-09-2015, 04:04 PM
http://ddowiki.com/page/Bravery_bonus

The bravery and streak bonuses stack with each other, but also stack with the standard "first time" bonus. Together, these bonuses can provide up to +75% on Hard and +150% on Elite when the maximum streak is obtained.


Hard (75%) = First time bonus (40%) + Bravery (10%) + Streak (25%)
Elite (150%) = First time bonus (80%) + Bravery (20%) + Streak (50%)

If I encounter a quest that's too tough to Elite-streak, often what I'll do is skip it, wait until I've out-leveled it (so I don't break my streak), then go back later and complete on N/H/E. This is helpful for, say, quests I think are a PITA to run on Elite at level, but I need the completion for raid-flagging or chain rewards.

Note that these XP bonuses stack with all other XP bonuses which is why you want to maintain an Elite streak as much as possible.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Experience_points#Gaining.2FEarning_Experience_Poi nts_.28XP.29

Sehenry03
02-09-2015, 04:07 PM
before going any further with advice, is the OP a new/er player? has the OP been previously doing elites? I think these are important questions to ask before saying "run elite first".

It wasn't advice. He asked why people run certain difficulties and we told him. He will quickly figure out what he can and can't handle based on his own gear/skill.

I don't think anyone told him to...we all just told him how to get the best xp out of streaks.

Postumus
02-09-2015, 04:10 PM
For max bonus you ALWAYS want to run Elite first then whatever after that. Bravery Bonus on Elite gives +50% xp while BB on hard give +25%. You have to run 5 consecutive dungeons in a row to get the full bonus though.


That will give you max experience, but it is important to note if you are VIP or have access to 80% of the heroic content you do not need to run everything on elite to get enough experience to reach level 20.


On a first life character you can run everything once on hard, or a combination of hard and normal, and still have enough XP to hit level 20. This is especially true if you like to do the explorer areas. Bravery bonuses isn't really something new players should concern themselves with because they usually don't need all those XP.


For instance, if you run everything on elite on a first life character, you will end up out-leveling a lot of content. As a new(er) player this might not be the enjoyable way to go unless you are more interested in cranking out levels than actually experiencing the content.

Sehenry03
02-09-2015, 04:17 PM
That will give you max experience, but it is important to note if you are VIP or have access to 80% of the heroic content you do not need to run everything on elite to get enough experience to reach level 20.


On a first life character you can run everything once on hard, or a combination of hard and normal, and still have enough XP to hit level 20. This is especially true if you like to do the explorer areas. Bravery bonuses isn't really something new players should concern themselves with because they usually don't need all those XP.


For instance, if you run everything on elite on a first life character, you will end up out-leveling a lot of content. As a new(er) player this might not be the enjoyable way to go unless you are more interested in cranking out levels than actually experiencing the content.

This is 100% true and that's why I didn't say it was always the best way. Personally I do this but lots of players don't.

Also keep in mind that for some players you can run 2 hard quests to 1 elite quest making the hard difficulty grant more xp in the same time frame.

mna
02-09-2015, 06:15 PM
For instance, if you run everything on elite on a first life character, you will end up out-leveling a lot of content. As a new(er) player this might not be the enjoyable way to go unless you are more interested in cranking out levels than actually experiencing the content.

... then again, the favor-farming f2p or premium player wants to get the elite favor anyway, and the easiest way to do that is to join an elite LFM...

Since overlevel favor-gatherer groups are fairly rare nowadays, this pretty much means later having to solo a bunch of stuff massively overlevel, thrice (N/H/E), for the "full" favor on a first life. Still the easy way to do it, but might be a bit boring occasionally.

Postumus
02-09-2015, 06:24 PM
This is 100% true and that's why I didn't say it was always the best way. Personally I do this but lots of players don't.

Also keep in mind that for some players you can run 2 hard quests to 1 elite quest making the hard difficulty grant more xp in the same time frame.


I wasn't disagreeing with you, just adding more details for the OP.

Faltout
02-09-2015, 06:24 PM
Since overlevel favor-gatherer groups are fairly rare nowadays, this pretty much means later having to solo a bunch of stuff massively overlevel, thrice (N/H/E), for the "full" favor on a first life. Still the easy way to do it, but might be a bit boring occasionally.
This is absolutely true. And even when I was trying to reach the first 2000 on my ranger in Ghallanda, I couldn't stand the grind of soloing quests thrice. So I TRed before hitting the mark. Fortunately, he will certainly hit it in his last life (a legend life) if not now.

burningwind
02-09-2015, 08:17 PM
likely they are old returning player from time before streak. after the introduction of streak the way to do it is always elite then hard. but before that we always do it in order of HHHHHEN

Sehenry03
02-09-2015, 08:32 PM
likely they are old returning player from time before streak. after the introduction of streak the way to do it is always elite then hard. but before that we always do it in order of HHHHHEN

I've been playing since beta and we always ran it EEEEEEHN for max xp or NNNNNNNHE for faster xp if it was a tougher dungeon...at least Sarlona was like this not sure on other servers.

burningwind
02-09-2015, 09:02 PM
I've been playing since beta and we always ran it EEEEEEHN for max xp or NNNNNNNHE for faster xp if it was a tougher dungeon...at least Sarlona was like this not sure on other servers.

well, am on sarlona as well. we only run E once because elite usually harder, which will take longer and require player to be careful. since you die you lose exp~~ so most of my friend are doing mostly hard instead.

Phanes
02-09-2015, 09:11 PM
Thanks for the advice I actually play two characters. One is casual with my wife and son and we are all level 6 and just do stuff for fun. The other I am running towards the end game as fast as possible with a buddy. So I will always do Elite X 5, Hard, then Normal if I have it correct. Thanks again :)

Impaqt
02-09-2015, 09:36 PM
before going any further with advice, is the OP a new/er player? has the OP been previously doing elites? I think these are important questions to ask before saying "run elite first".

Doesnt matter. The game is far too heavily weighted toward completing elite first.

Do elite first and then Hard is the answer to his question.

Do Elite first is Also what the devs of the game encourage ALL people to do, even if they dont expect new players to be running elite(See my sig).

This is a serious flaw in DDO imo and really needs to be addressed.

Bluegirl_Two
02-09-2015, 10:14 PM
before going any further with advice, is the OP a new/er player? has the OP been previously doing elites? I think these are important questions to ask before saying "run elite first".

Don't know if you've run dungeons on hard for bravery bonuses and then stepped into a new dungeon on elite. If you do you'll find that the hard bravery bonus will apply to your elite run.

The point here is that it doesn't matter if OP has been running hard and not doing elites previously -- OP will still get the best XP by changing their approach and always running on elite first.

Now, there are some challenges with that and we should acknowledge them. Running on elite when under level or at level isn't the best option. The best approach is to always be 2 character levels higher than the dungeon level on its normal setting. For example, Waterworks part 1 is a L3 dungeon on normal. You should run that dungeon when you are on a character that is L5.

If you start on Korthos Island the most difficult quest to solo in the Village area is Cannith Crystal. Starting that quest on Hard and then running the other 3 quests on elite should give players enough XP to make L2. After leveling run the Korthos Island quests. Character should be L3 with bravery bonuses. Run the solo quests in the Harbor and enough of the easier L2 quests to gain L4. After that it is pretty easy to stay ahead of the dungeon levels with that +2 character level.

Running quests on hard for bonus refers not to bravery bonuses but to first time completion bonuses. In addition to the bravery bonus for running on an elite bravery streak there are also first time completion bonuses for doing quests on elite (+80%), hard (+40%) and normal/casual/solo (+25%). To get the best XP out of a quest run it once on elite for the bravery bonus (+50%) and the first time completion bonus (+80%). Follow that by running it on hard (+40%) and normal (+25%).

This is not always possible -- for example, Waterworks is a 4 quest chain. So, for best XP there run the whole chain E, H, N.

Lastly, why did the player ask for hard difficulty -- because they wanted the first time on hard bonus. That means they had already done the quest on elite and did not want to do it again on elite. Why not? Because not only do they no longer get any bonuses but also they could suffer an XP penalty. Each time you repeat a quest -- unless it is the first time doing the quest on that difficulty level -- you take a -20% penalty.

Some people feel this penalty is worth taking when they are repeating quests so they will run them E, E, H, N. First elite run gets all the bonuses, second takes a 20% XP hit, third run is first time hard so no XP penalty applies and instead they get the hard bonus, fourth run is first time normal so again no penalty but the normal bonus kicks in. Why not run E, H, N, E? Because by the second elite run they've run the quest 3 times, so when the penalty kicks in it is -60%.

First life characters should never really need to repeat quests if they have an elite streak running. Second life characters can get by with repeating only the best XP quests. Third and later lives have all sorts of repeat strategies depending on the players.

Qhualor
02-09-2015, 11:33 PM
Doesnt matter. The game is far too heavily weighted toward completing elite first.

Do elite first and then Hard is the answer to his question.

Do Elite first is Also what the devs of the game encourage ALL people to do, even if they dont expect new players to be running elite(See my sig).

This is a serious flaw in DDO imo and really needs to be addressed.

after reading his response, it sounds like he has been doing elites. the OP didn't specify any details. with all the entitlement threads and discussions that's been popping up for awhile now, I thought it would be good to get these important details first before responding with "run elite because its higher xp and BB". regardless of what the game encourages, I would never suggest to a new player to jump right into elite.

I take what Sev to mean is that he doesn't expect new players to just jump into hard or elite without some gear and some knowledge of the game first. that post was about the Champion discussion.

Qhualor
02-09-2015, 11:47 PM
Don't know if you've run dungeons on hard for bravery bonuses and then stepped into a new dungeon on elite. If you do you'll find that the hard bravery bonus will apply to your elite run.

The point here is that it doesn't matter if OP has been running hard and not doing elites previously -- OP will still get the best XP by changing their approach and always running on elite first.

Now, there are some challenges with that and we should acknowledge them. Running on elite when under level or at level isn't the best option. The best approach is to always be 2 character levels higher than the dungeon level on its normal setting. For example, Waterworks part 1 is a L3 dungeon on normal. You should run that dungeon when you are on a character that is L5.

If you start on Korthos Island the most difficult quest to solo in the Village area is Cannith Crystal. Starting that quest on Hard and then running the other 3 quests on elite should give players enough XP to make L2. After leveling run the Korthos Island quests. Character should be L3 with bravery bonuses. Run the solo quests in the Harbor and enough of the easier L2 quests to gain L4. After that it is pretty easy to stay ahead of the dungeon levels with that +2 character level.

Running quests on hard for bonus refers not to bravery bonuses but to first time completion bonuses. In addition to the bravery bonus for running on an elite bravery streak there are also first time completion bonuses for doing quests on elite (+80%), hard (+40%) and normal/casual/solo (+25%). To get the best XP out of a quest run it once on elite for the bravery bonus (+50%) and the first time completion bonus (+80%). Follow that by running it on hard (+40%) and normal (+25%).

This is not always possible -- for example, Waterworks is a 4 quest chain. So, for best XP there run the whole chain E, H, N.

Lastly, why did the player ask for hard difficulty -- because they wanted the first time on hard bonus. That means they had already done the quest on elite and did not want to do it again on elite. Why not? Because not only do they no longer get any bonuses but also they could suffer an XP penalty. Each time you repeat a quest -- unless it is the first time doing the quest on that difficulty level -- you take a -20% penalty.

Some people feel this penalty is worth taking when they are repeating quests so they will run them E, E, H, N. First elite run gets all the bonuses, second takes a 20% XP hit, third run is first time hard so no XP penalty applies and instead they get the hard bonus, fourth run is first time normal so again no penalty but the normal bonus kicks in. Why not run E, H, N, E? Because by the second elite run they've run the quest 3 times, so when the penalty kicks in it is -60%.

First life characters should never really need to repeat quests if they have an elite streak running. Second life characters can get by with repeating only the best XP quests. Third and later lives have all sorts of repeat strategies depending on the players.

yes ive run quests with hard streak going while running quests on elite. I often do that in epics.

like in said above, I didn't know the details of the player so I wasn't going to suggest to a new player to jump into the highest difficulty. I will always suggest in those cases to run norm first and eventually move up to hard when things get easier and eventually move up to elite when that gets easier. his response makes him sound more experienced so I probably would have given it a different response.

I solo WW at level 4 on elite, but I also do one and done and go up the compendium list running whatever is next. I don't end up 2 levels above base quest until I think level 6. by the time I hit 18 and sometimes with 19 already started to bank, ive skipped a bunch of quests and start running level 16s. for a first life, the xp is so good and easy to get that you can actually be picky as you level, BB or not. you don't need elite to hit cap.

I understand how xp works and how to milk the most of it. ive only been playing for almost 5 1/2 years. my forum join date is accurate. again, I would not suggest a leveling plan milking xp for what its most optimal until they have finished one life first. at least than they should have gained some good knowledge and maybe they are ready for more of a challenge. a first life character can get away with jumping all over the place without much fear of being stuck, unless they skipped a lot of quests while leveling.

Oliphant
02-10-2015, 12:00 AM
I was going to run a dungeon the other day ago and I set it for Elite. A member in my party told me I should run it on Hard first then repeat it on Elite for a bonus. Is there an advantage to doing a dungeon twice on different settings?

Maybe he wants you to steam roll it properly because the content is new to you. Adverturing, I say! Do it on Elite, once and done!

janave
02-10-2015, 01:41 AM
That reminded me Devious bonus is way too small compared to Conquest, and is actually much harder to pull off most of the time due to bad dungeon design. The only thing favors Devious is time, when you have a good layout.

Xyfiel
02-10-2015, 04:50 AM
Some bad info in this thread. Please see http://ddowiki.com/page/Quest_ransack

Specifically :
Hard: full exp (20% ransack after run)

You do not have ransack penalty on your first run that isn't a first time bonus. E/E/H/N will have no ransack.

Stoner81
02-10-2015, 07:20 AM
Some people feel this penalty is worth taking when they are repeating quests so they will run them E, E, H, N. First elite run gets all the bonuses, second takes a 20% XP hit, third run is first time hard so no XP penalty applies and instead they get the hard bonus, fourth run is first time normal so again no penalty but the normal bonus kicks in. Why not run E, H, N, E? Because by the second elite run they've run the quest 3 times, so when the penalty kicks in it is -60%.

Technically inacurrate...

Once per life you can run every difficulty in a quest without any ransack penalties, so running E/E/H/N will incur NO penalties of any sort... sort of:

Elite = First time completion +80% XP.
Elite = First time running it after the above run which will incur a 20% penalty after completing the run.
Hard = First time completion +50% XP, the above penalty does not apply because it is the first time the difficulty has been run.
Normal = First time completion bonus +25% XP (same as Hard).

You would only notice the 20% penalty if you ran a 3rd Elite run of the quest since that is when you would see the penalty apply to the quest.

I do this on a number of quests every life because the XP is so good for certain quests to ignore :)

Stoner81.

Bluegirl_Two
02-10-2015, 11:20 AM
Technically inacurrate...

Once per life you can run every difficulty in a quest without any ransack penalties, so running E/E/H/N will incur NO penalties of any sort... sort of:

Elite = First time completion +80% XP.
Elite = First time running it after the above run which will incur a 20% penalty after completing the run.
Hard = First time completion +50% XP, the above penalty does not apply because it is the first time the difficulty has been run.
Normal = First time completion bonus +25% XP (same as Hard).

You would only notice the 20% penalty if you ran a 3rd Elite run of the quest since that is when you would see the penalty apply to the quest.

I do this on a number of quests every life because the XP is so good for certain quests to ignore :)

Stoner81.

:D

To start with, what you've just said is exactly what I said -- that there is bonus on first elite, penalty on second elite, bonus on first hard, bonus on first normal. However, you are wrong, I think, about running the elite at the end. The reason is because the repetition counter continues regardless of whether it is a first time run or not. The actual workings go like this:

First run elite -- 0% penalty, 80% first time elite
Second run elite -- 20% penalty, 0% first time
Third run hard -- 40% penalty, 40% first time hard, first time bonus reduces penalty to 0%
Fourth run normal -- 60% penalty, 25% first time normal, first time bonus reduces penalty to 0%

This is how I've always understood the penalty to work. The penalty accumulates based on the number of repetitions. It is ignored if one of those repetitions is a first time on a difficulty level. So, on the fourth run the penalty is 60%.

But, I've been wrong before so I'll go in game and check it out. Back with an updated edit to this post when I've finished. :)

Edit:

Alright. I went into the game and created a new character at L3. I took her to Korthos Village and ran the Storehouse's Secret. I chose that quest because it is easy and fast.

I ran the quests E, H, N, E. And, I found out that I was wrong.

Here is the actual result:

First run: +80% bonus for elite.
Second run: +40% bonus for hard.
Third run: +25% bonus for normal.
Fourth run: 0% bonus and 0% penalty for elite.
Fifth run: -20% penalty for ransack.

So, my understanding was incorrect and the first time play through at each difficulty level does not affect the ransack counter at all. Ransack counter only starts after you complete a quest without the first time bonus applying.

So maximum XP is gained by running E first and then any combination of E, H, N in any order.

I learn something new all the time. :D

cru121
02-10-2015, 11:45 AM
Second run elite -- 20% penalty, 0% first time

no. 0% penalty here

Sunnie
02-10-2015, 11:58 AM
So I will always do Elite X 5, Hard, then Normal if I have it correct. Thanks again :)

Goodness no! Don't! That was what we used to do years ago. Back when xp ransack didn't go away over time, quests were few and far between, and we had to walk uphill past troglodyte shamans casting sleet storms to get to the quest and the NPC both! While overburdened. no less!
To get the most xp out of quests we used to run them on one difficulty until it was almost down to zero, and then we did the other 2 difficulties once each because they still gave full xp. That's no longer the case and hasn't been for a long time.

Nowadays if you want to farm a quest for xp, you can run it on EEHN (or EHHN, or even EHNN) the first day. Then you run it on whatever difficulty you like the day after, and again the day after that. It's pretty neat how you can run several different quests each day and get full xp for them every time.

Bluegirl_Two
02-10-2015, 12:17 PM
I updated my previous post with an edit. For those who don't go back to read those edits, I'll repeat what I found out here.

I was wrong.

EEHN and EHNE are exactly the same XP. And, there is no penalty for that second E run either.

It appears that the way ransack works is this: When you run a quest first time on a difficulty there is no record made in the ransack counter. That means that ransack only starts counting when you run a quest without the first time bonus applying.

Maximum XP then comes from E first for bravery bonuses followed by EHN in any order.

Note that 5xE,H,N is old school but still works if you are grinding out XP and not planning to go back to a quest. The 5 elite runs would be +80%, no bonus/penalty, -20%, -40%, -60%. If a player is speed leveling that might be better than waiting a day for ransack to go away.

Also be aware that ransack goes away 18 hours after the last quest run. So, even if running daily the best first day XP is E and then any combination of EEEHN. The 3 elite runs (after the first) generate a 40% penalty. That penalty is reduced by 50% at the end of the 18 hours. So, day 1 is 4xE,H,N and day 2+ is always 3xE -- at least in theory.

In practice you'll probably level past the quest in heroics. In epics it would be best to go with the 4E,H,N followed by 3E routine if all you are interested in is getting XP to reincarnate or complete destinies.

Bluegirl_Two
02-10-2015, 12:30 PM
That reminded me Devious bonus is way too small compared to Conquest, and is actually much harder to pull off most of the time due to bad dungeon design. The only thing favors Devious is time, when you have a good layout.

Devious is so seldom used I'm surprised it is even included in the game. There is only 1 quest where sneaking is a goal-state in the quest design and even that quest is normally run by ignoring that design element and just zerging from place to place using invisibility and haste to conquer dungeon alerts.

All told it is a wasted part of the game for all but a small subset of players.

It suffers from three things: Quest design -- only 1 quest exists that focuses on it and that quest isn't played as designed by most people; Player behavior -- most groups use brute force on everything; Quest objectives/Dungeon layout -- many quests require you to kill things in order to advance or place mobs in static positions so that sneaking is intentionally neutralized.

I would add a fourth item, Failure of game mechanics. It is not effective to pull mobs using tricks so that they investigate and open paths for characters to sneak through. I think this has been intentionally broken as a way to deal with certain AI problems and perceptions that those AI issues introduce lag. It might be a necessary thing given the limits of AI.

But, all told, I'm in the camp that views Devious as impractical most of the time and so not worth development time or XP reward. I suspect that you could make Devious greater than Conquest and people would still opt for Conquest. It is simply easier and more in line with the nature of the players when they form groups.

Postumus
02-10-2015, 03:23 PM
So I will always do Elite X 5, Hard, then Normal if I have it correct. Thanks again :)


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ! :)


If are running for max XP go EHNE or EEHN. But if you are on a first life, just complete everything once on either normal or hard and re-run it on elite for the quests you like or want to try again at the hardest setting.


But even I find running each quest four times to be - BLEAH - boring. Even on 3+ life characters I rarely run a quest more than once on elite except for a handful of quests that I like to run multiple times.

burningwind
02-10-2015, 04:54 PM
if you have enough pack you don't need to repeat anything.. just do each quest once and you are on your way to 20.