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View Full Version : PURE Class = past life feats. Point system idea



Pehtis
01-29-2015, 11:05 PM
My suggestion/dea is that all past life feat had a point system of say 100 points on top of the usual pre-req.

Therefore at say level 20 cap it totalled 80 points (5 points each level). Now for some handicaps and bonus.

BONUS: Pure builds receive an Extra 20 points as part of their cap. Therefore they get their 100 points and get instant access to past life feat.

HANDICAP: Splashed builds on the other hand Lose points for each splash level. Say 5 points for each splash level. All that will do is make it a little harder to get access to Past Life Feats.

Of course past life feat points carry forward into next life. Thus every life they would be used to access whatever past life feats were allowable for that character if they had enough points.

This applies to EPIC past life feats as well.

Maybe that will tweak the balance just a little in favour of pure classes. As it is part of the power creep lies in splashes being SO MUCH more powerful than pure clasess, hence splashes quickly/easier capping themselves at Heroic & EPIC at the expense of pure classes, and gaining powerful past life feats on top.

Ideally this is made retrospective but not sure if Turbine tracks what the level splits were at TR on existing characters. If so, they could allot points for all cap lives which could then be used on available past life feats.

Sure I can see instant exploits with many splashed toons re-incarnated themselves just before a True TR. Not sure how to address that (maybe limit reincarnations to level 14 and below forcing them to grind higher levels as PURE or something).












ALTERNATIVELY
So what if ...................... only pure capped classes got access to past life feat? Muhahahahahahah (cough!)

Powerhungry
01-30-2015, 12:12 AM
My suggestion/dea is that all past life feat had a point system of say 100 points on top of the usual pre-req.

Therefore at say level 20 cap it totalled 80 points (5 points each level). Now for some handicaps and bonus.

BONUS: Pure builds receive an Extra 20 points as part of their cap. Therefore they get their 100 points and get instant access to past life feat.

HANDICAP: Splashed builds on the other hand Lose points for each splash level. Say 5 points for each splash level. All that will do is make it a little harder to get access to Past Life Feats.

Of course past life feat points carry forward into next life. Thus every life they would be used to access whatever past life feats were allowable for that character if they had enough points.

This applies to EPIC past life feats as well.

Maybe that will tweak the balance just a little in favour of pure classes. As it is part of the power creep lies in splashes being SO MUCH more powerful than pure clasess, hence splashes quickly/easier capping themselves at Heroic & EPIC at the expense of pure classes, and gaining powerful past life feats on top.

Ideally this is made retrospective but not sure if Turbine tracks what the level splits were at TR on existing characters. If so, they could allot points for all cap lives which could then be used on available past life feats.

Sure I can see instant exploits with many splashed toons re-incarnated themselves just before a True TR. Not sure how to address that (maybe limit reincarnations to level 14 and below forcing them to grind higher levels as PURE or something).

ALTERNATIVELY
So what if ...................... only pure capped classes got access to past life feat? Muhahahahahahah (cough!)

While I am all for doing (something) that encourages and/or rewards pure class play (the grounds upon which DnD is based), sadly I believe your suggestion would have little to no effect on the majority of the player base as they already have most/all of their past lives and there would be no way to figure this retroactively for the lives already done.

I do wish there was a reason to stay pure class other than just flavor and trying to stay true to the DnD lore (multi class characters in pnp received an exp penalty and could do many things, but none of them as well as a pure build- sadly, I don't see that happening again in DDO).
Perhaps make sentient weapons key off class levels, not character levels, thus encouraging and rewarding pure builds with a better endgame weapon that a multi class character cannot hope to achieve...
(similar to http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Divine_Vengeance )

Rofaust
01-30-2015, 04:24 AM
I love pure class toons, most of mine (over 20 toons) are purists but I must respectfully object to this idea. I'm ok with other people splashing to get extra goodies because it means the whole group doesn't have to wait longer to get a pure trapper or a pure tank. I think it'd be nice to have some small bonus for being pure but I think penalizing non-pure toons would hurt a larger number of other people more than would be worth it for us.

SirValentine
01-30-2015, 04:28 AM
Though I do think the enhancement pass really swung things way, way, too far in favor of multiclass, I don't think this is a good way to address the problem.

Failedlegend
01-30-2015, 04:30 AM
If your unsatisfied with how some classes performn without multi-classing feel free to make suggestions on how to improve the class theres no reason to punish people for building the character they want

Wh070aa
01-30-2015, 05:09 AM
If your unsatisfied with how some classes performn without multi-classing feel free to make suggestions on how to improve the class theres no reason to punish people for building the character they want

Give ewryone access to heavy armor, tower shields, evasion(/ some way to survive spells and traps), self healing(that is not annoying, and take forever), and enchantments that have synergy with class. Also spell power/critical of the spells you actually use, and weapon attacks and abilities that actually do something, without penalizing something, and paying 20- ish points to remove penalties. (I am looking at artificer, you just pay off penalties, instead of getting benefits there).

Also possibly capstones that do something, and level 9/6 spells that don't bug out every 2nd update. Wail, meteorite storm, implosion, Tactical Detonation, Greater Shout, Hold Monster, Mass I have experienced bugs with all these spells after significant pure class investment in them, and no longer use them, as they have been broken more than 5 times, and I just cant base my builds relying on them. (Also Chain Lightning, but that's besides the point, it has newer worked anyway).

Also while your at it, fix the descriptions, or effects of movement speed spells, and stuff.
Mobile Spellcasting feat -
Haste spell-
Rune arm movement speed-

Also ranged attack speed/reload (I have no clue whats going on there).

If they worked as described, I would not need to splash barbarian, for movement speed bonuses.


All I really want is fixed descriptions, that say the actual effect of spell/feat/ enchantment. I can build myself around the bugs (albeit missing the pure classes, as they suffer the most).
This should not take more than like couple hours(more like 30 minutes of finding the spots, and writing up descriptions + compiling time) of developer time, and save hours of time playing test characters.

I would suggest changing harper capstone, or tier 5 to evasion, adding weapon proficiency multisector, and a +3[w] damage special shot (melee and ranged), with some effect, and 15- ish second cool down, and possibly a speed boost (40% movement speed).

General_Gronker
01-30-2015, 06:47 AM
No. Being based on 3/3.5, that's a dumb idea. The entire philosophy behind the multiclassing rules was to have multiclassed character. Non-pure class is a feature, not a bug.

Shadow2024
02-01-2015, 11:44 PM
20x5 give 100, not 80
maybe u meant 4 per level just like AP?

mobrien316
02-01-2015, 11:55 PM
No. Being based on 3/3.5, that's a dumb idea. The entire philosophy behind the multiclassing rules was to have multiclassed character. Non-pure class is a feature, not a bug.

It depends on the DM in PnP. If someone in my group said they wanted a level of fighter on their (insert other class here), and I asked how it fit into the story and they said, "Because I want more feats," I would have told them no.

And all the "monk splashes" would never happen with a decent DM in PnP. Monks dedicate their life to study and meditation. They are not going to start out their life in a Thieves' Guild so they can "do traps", and then study to be a monk, then quit the monastery and go find a veteran ranger to train them to be a ranger for a while, and then go back to the monastery and seek to be re-admitted, and then leave again to study ranger skills some more, all the while continuing to return to the Thieves' Guild every level so they can continue to hone their Disable Device skill. None of that would make the least bit of sense; it's metagaming and any decent DM doesn't allow metagaming and actively seeks to discourage it.

Failedlegend
02-02-2015, 07:46 AM
It depends on the DM in PnP. If someone in my group said they wanted a level of fighter on their (insert other class here), and I asked how it fit into the story and they said, "Because I want more feats," I would have told them no.

And all the "monk splashes" would never happen with a decent DM in PnP. Monks dedicate their life to study and meditation. They are not going to start out their life in a Thieves' Guild so they can "do traps", and then study to be a monk, then quit the monastery and go find a veteran ranger to train them to be a ranger for a while, and then go back to the monastery and seek to be re-admitted, and then leave again to study ranger skills some more, all the while continuing to return to the Thieves' Guild every level so they can continue to hone their Disable Device skill. None of that would make the least bit of sense; it's metagaming and any decent DM doesn't allow metagaming and actively seeks to discourage it.

If the player wants to be a Paladin that is good with stuff like locks and the like and rogue is the only way to do that it's not "metagaming" its called building your character within the limits of the system. The BEST DMs work with their players to ensure the game is fun for everyone and multi-classing allows for alot more range in character concepts without going to the much more complicated free build systems (ie. GURPS)

For example in a Pathfinder Campaign I recently joined I made what is essentially a Detective that works for the church which the Inquisitor class fits perfectly BUT my character hasn't been with the church the whole campaign he started out as a bit of a Trickster/Cat Burglar until he was caught stealing from said church...the captain of the Warpriests took pity on him and offered to train him as a Warpriest instead of turning him over to the authorities, my character reluctantly joined but turns out he's kinda really bad at fighting but he was gifted with great agility and a silver tongue so he was shifted to train to become essentially a "Shadow Operative"

IOW there's no way a single classed character could accomplish this. So I've gone Rogue1/Warpriest1/Inquisitor2 and who knows maybe I'll do something stupid like get cursed or make a deal with a devil (oracle or warlock)

BTW the original plan was to make a James Bond type character hence the starting as a Rogue, I was going to pick up Gun proficiency at some point the church stuff just sorta happened.


As for a DDO example I wanted to make a "Battlemage" which when I made him wasn't really possible as a Single-Class mage (this was before Palemaster) except maybe as a warforged but I dislike the look of WF for spellcasters (Shardminds would be cool) so I went Dwarf who looked cool and still had a nice +2 Con to help make up for the D4 Hit die. He ended up being a Wiz12/Fighter6/Rogue2 Dex/Int based (Int primary)

I was going for a "Swift Blade" feel as opposed to a more Front-Line Heavy Armor "Howitzer" type although once PM was introduced (post-fixes) he became quite resilient and other game changes neutered his ability to be a competent Damage dealer...a quick LR and some Cannith crafting rejigged him to Con/Int based w/ Heavy Armor+Large Shield but frankly its barely able to handle Epic stuff planning to TR into either an Elven Archmage/Tempest, Human Swashbuckler/Kensai or maybe a PM/Assassin to get that "Swiftblade" feel back once I hit 28/30. Unfortunately EK is fairly useless so it doesn't really help.

All that said if a player wants/enjoys making the perfect multi-class build that shouldn't be punished, everyone has fun differently.

mobrien316
02-02-2015, 08:52 AM
If the player wants to be a Paladin that is good with stuff like locks and the like and rogue is the only way to do that it's not "metagaming" its called building your character within the limits of the system. The BEST DMs work with their players to ensure the game is fun for everyone and multi-classing allows for alot more range in character concepts without going to the much more complicated free build systems (ie. GURPS)

For example in a Pathfinder Campaign I recently joined I made what is essentially a Detective that works for the church which the Inquisitor class fits perfectly BUT my character hasn't been with the church the whole campaign he started out as a bit of a Trickster/Cat Burglar until he was caught stealing from said church...the captain of the Warpriests took pity on him and offered to train him as a Warpriest instead of turning him over to the authorities, my character reluctantly joined but turns out he's kinda really bad at fighting but he was gifted with great agility and a silver tongue so he was shifted to train to become essentially a "Shadow Operative"

IOW there's no way a single classed character could accomplish this. So I've gone Rogue1/Warpriest1/Inquisitor2 and who knows maybe I'll do something stupid like get cursed or make a deal with a devil (oracle or warlock)

BTW the original plan was to make a James Bond type character hence the starting as a Rogue, I was going to pick up Gun proficiency at some point the church stuff just sorta happened.


As for a DDO example I wanted to make a "Battlemage" which when I made him wasn't really possible as a Single-Class mage (this was before Palemaster) except maybe as a warforged but I dislike the look of WF for spellcasters (Shardminds would be cool) so I went Dwarf who looked cool and still had a nice +2 Con to help make up for the D4 Hit die. He ended up being a Wiz12/Fighter6/Rogue2 Dex/Int based (Int primary)

I was going for a "Swift Blade" feel as opposed to a more Front-Line Heavy Armor "Howitzer" type although once PM was introduced (post-fixes) he became quite resilient and other game changes neutered his ability to be a competent Damage dealer...a quick LR and some Cannith crafting rejigged him to Con/Int based w/ Heavy Armor+Large Shield but frankly its barely able to handle Epic stuff planning to TR into either an Elven Archmage/Tempest, Human Swashbuckler/Kensai or maybe a PM/Assassin to get that "Swiftblade" feel back once I hit 28/30. Unfortunately EK is fairly useless so it doesn't really help.

All that said if a player wants/enjoys making the perfect multi-class build that shouldn't be punished, everyone has fun differently.

As I wrote, if it doesn't fit the story and the only reason for a splash here or there is "I want more feats" "or "I want to do traps" then a good DM will not allow it. If it makes sense within the story for a character to have a few levels of fighter, a few of barbarian, and then a bunch of ranger (such as Drizzt), then a good DM not only allows it but encourages it.

psykopeta
02-02-2015, 09:44 AM
My suggestion/dea is that all past life feat had a point system of say 100 points on top of the usual pre-req.

Therefore at say level 20 cap it totalled 80 points (5 points each level). Now for some handicaps and bonus.

BONUS: Pure builds receive an Extra 20 points as part of their cap. Therefore they get their 100 points and get instant access to past life feat.

HANDICAP: Splashed builds on the other hand Lose points for each splash level. Say 5 points for each splash level. All that will do is make it a little harder to get access to Past Life Feats.

Of course past life feat points carry forward into next life. Thus every life they would be used to access whatever past life feats were allowable for that character if they had enough points.

This applies to EPIC past life feats as well.

Maybe that will tweak the balance just a little in favour of pure classes. As it is part of the power creep lies in splashes being SO MUCH more powerful than pure clasess, hence splashes quickly/easier capping themselves at Heroic & EPIC at the expense of pure classes, and gaining powerful past life feats on top.

Ideally this is made retrospective but not sure if Turbine tracks what the level splits were at TR on existing characters. If so, they could allot points for all cap lives which could then be used on available past life feats.

Sure I can see instant exploits with many splashed toons re-incarnated themselves just before a True TR. Not sure how to address that (maybe limit reincarnations to level 14 and below forcing them to grind higher levels as PURE or something).












ALTERNATIVELY
So what if ...................... only pure capped classes got access to past life feat? Muhahahahahahah (cough!)

let me say it short way: NO

i'm doing 3 lives each class, at least one pure

MOST players have done 6-6-8 builds

then you have to keep in mind all who used box

so, for all those who weren't playing as you chose (because nobody was aiming your head with a gun) removing the pl they deserved, following the rules of the era, it wouldn't be fair

i can't think any reason to implement this, even less doing it retroactively, well, i got it!

if i wanted to definitely kill ddo, i would implement this idea, trying to find some relation between ddo and pnp... well, that's a bit too late, the 1st thing you should do if wanna see less multiclassing, just get rid of enhancements, don't see the point in that wow'ish thing

because the distribution and power creep they bring, is quite wow'ish you know?

same with ED, in fact dunno why are we getting commoner lvls after 20 and people is ok with it, just because the ED? there should be real epic lvls and multiclassing over 20, all the times im forced to hit 28 to itr, none of them would be with 8 commoner lvls

Failedlegend
02-02-2015, 06:04 PM
As I wrote, if it doesn't fit the story and the only reason for a splash here or there is "I want more feats" "or "I want to do traps" then a good DM will not allow it. If it makes sense within the story for a character to have a few levels of fighter, a few of barbarian, and then a bunch of ranger (such as Drizzt), then a good DM not only allows it but encourages it.

I repeat the Best DMs work with their players to be sure everyone is having fun and some people find making the perfect build as a big part of their fun, personally I can't play a build if it doesn't "feel" right (ie. I can't play WF spellcasters) but that's MY style.

IOW just because people play differently than you doesn't mean they should be punished.

Pehtis
02-02-2015, 09:27 PM
let me say it short way: NO

i'm doing 3 lives each class, at least one pure

MOST players have done 6-6-8 builds

then you have to keep in mind all who used box

so, for all those who weren't playing as you chose (because nobody was aiming your head with a gun) removing the pl they deserved, following the rules of the era, it wouldn't be fair

i can't think any reason to implement this, even less doing it retroactively, well, i got it!

if i wanted to definitely kill ddo, i would implement this idea, trying to find some relation between ddo and pnp... well, that's a bit too late, the 1st thing you should do if wanna see less multiclassing, just get rid of enhancements, don't see the point in that wow'ish thing

because the distribution and power creep they bring, is quite wow'ish you know?

same with ED, in fact dunno why are we getting commoner lvls after 20 and people is ok with it, just because the ED? there should be real epic lvls and multiclassing over 20, all the times im forced to hit 28 to itr, none of them would be with 8 commoner lvls


I don't disagree with you that something like this could in fact hurt DDO playing group. But then again I keep seeing Forum posts "I AM BORED", "GAME TOO EASY" which I never agreed with due to my toons being 'normal like'.

The DDO game has evolved such that almost everything has to be multi-classed to better benefits than any pure, but have negligible drawbacks. My understanding of multi-class mean that EXPERIENCE earned has to be split between class and that the toon had to earn much more experience to level up. That is not the case in DDO. The point system sought to address that in a small way at the end of the level life by providing a XP penalty for that CLASS specific past life feat. Since the character was not DEDICATED enough to that class meant a penalty ought to be imposed. That was my rationale.

I admit this idea of a multi class nerf of sorts may not be practical for those with existing past life feats as the horse has truly bolted and I doubt they have kept the data records of previous level splits. But if this idea was introduced moving forward I don't see why not. Sure newer players will be feeling the hurt but would balance the game up a bit. Give them something to strive for a little longer. As long as they also close the obvious exploit of reincarnations before a true reincarnation.

But it would in my opinion go some way of restoring some overall balance to game by making multi-class characters work harder for those CLASS SPECIFIC past life splits.


On the other hand I think I would be happy with your suggestion to compromise with the full removal of enhancement trees outside of the MAIN class chosen. Maybe allow a switch of sorts just like ED's for the enhancement tree (3 days cooling off period), but with the same level limitations on those trees.


Just a suggestion.






P.S The 100 points should be 4 points per heroic level. It would not allow me to edit post after I posted it. The overall concept is there though as a suggestion.

mobrien316
02-03-2015, 10:35 AM
I repeat the Best DMs work with their players to be sure everyone is having fun and some people find making the perfect build as a big part of their fun, personally I can't play a build if it doesn't "feel" right (ie. I can't play WF spellcasters) but that's MY style.

IOW just because people play differently than you doesn't mean they should be punished.

The best DM's will overrule what the players want when it is likely to lead to them not enjoying the game in the long term. If a player metagames D&D, it might be "more fun" for that particular hour or two, but in the long run it will spoil the game.

A useful analogy is the DM who fudges die rolls in order to not kill a character. For that one gaming session, the player will have more "fun" because the character they have created and role played for weeks or months was not killed. In the long term, it destroys the game if the players know the DM won't let them die.

Enoach
02-03-2015, 10:58 AM
Four out of my 6 characters are Level 20 of their class commonly known as pure. I myself enjoy playing them and have done most classes as pure sometime during my time playing DDO. The only two I have not done are Ranger and Monk. Ranger because it brings back painful memories from my PnP days and Monk because I just haven't wanted to.

I think Turbine did this right by setting it up as being the class that is dominate in the build. I wish they would have opted for a different method when levels are equal then the Alpha for base and then by when the class was added ordering system for ties - My thought would be that when you have a tie Turbine would let you pick which one similar to when you Epic Reincarnate and can pick which of the destinies that has 6mil Karma you want to get the PL Feat for.

On the Epic Past Life I'm not even sure how you can limit that. Example for me when I ER a character ALL spheres have 6mil Karma How would you even limit the selection? Based on what Sphere I played in that life? That would suck for so many people that already have sphere Karma set up.

So no, Turbine has the TR thing right (except for the Tie issue) and changes to it like what the OP is suggesting would just be bad.

Uska
02-03-2015, 12:13 PM
3.X is all about multiclassing and we don't need to complications to reincarnation it has enough bugs already.

Seikojin
02-03-2015, 12:58 PM
I don't really see the mechanics of this proposed system in play, so I can't comment on it. However, it looks like a requirement to get a past life. If that is the case, shmeh.

I think the biggest things that would drive people to play pure is abilities and items. So some items that confer a +1DC bonus to Fighter lvl X, or +X to DC's every 5 lvls of Fighter, etc. Capstone gear with boosts based on the capstone in play. Past life gear that works with the feats you have or require them.

QuantumFX
02-06-2015, 12:52 AM
No thanks. If you want to give reasons for a character to stay pure class, Turbine needs to make the level 18 and 20 core abilities competitive with 2-6 level splashes. (Also, the racial PrE’s that they can’t seem to get done.)