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Ultinoob
01-24-2015, 02:29 PM
EDIT: Some people pointed out that this comparison would not be correct for end game. That is propably true. It was never intended for end game but for comparing builds at around level 15. You can use at a guide for going from level 1-20. Epic Destinies are not included.

Hi all

Edit: I did some analysis on attack speed of repeaters and throwing shurikens. The closest i had to a lvl 15 was a level 16. Art 9 ranger 6 rogue 1 BAB 12. Feats: Rapid reload. Rapid shot. Ranged attack speed bonus 10%. Using a repeater he fired 1.718 bolts per second. Using a shuriken it was 0.69668 shurikens per second. The graphs has been updated using these numbers.
I am not able to post pictures in other forum folders so now i post it here - I hope that is okay.

I did some calculations on different builds. One of them is the Shuricannon https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/452990-Shuricannon-2-0?p=5523301 and another is the Critzilla https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/444046-Work-in-progress-Critzilla . Another is the warshuriken 40k - see the end of the critzilla thread. It is a monk 6 paladin 14 using holy sword and shurikens.

I did the calculations assuming that a thrower can throw one axe/shuriken/dart each second without any enhancements to attack speed. I did this to compare it to a repeater build which fires about 2 bolts each second.
The graph below shows the multiplier of the base damage - the normal damage on a non crit not including banes etc - compared to the other.

I assumed 28 wisdom for calculating bonuses from 10k stars. This is also averaged out since it can only work half the time.
I assumed 36 dex for calculations on shuriken expertise and the ninja spy enhancement.
I assumed that for the critzilla the Nightforge Spike was used and for shuriken the snow star was used.

Critzilla:
Threatrange=10
Critmultiplier=4

Bard shuriken:
Threatrange=10
Critmultiplier=3
Shuriken expertise with dex=50, Swashbuckkling with rune arm

Halfling Monk shuriken:
Threatrange=8
Critmultiplier=2
Shuriken expertise, ninja spy, 10k stars, grandmaster of wind stance

Warshuriken 40k Monk paladin:
Threatrange=8
Critmultiplier=3
Shuriken expertise, ninja spy, 10k stars, grandmaster of wind stance

Artificer repeater:
Threatrange=4
Critmultiplier=2
Armor of speed

Artificer paladin repeater:
Threatrange=6
Critmultiplier=3
10% bonus to attack speed

Shuricannon - This does not get the crit range until level 20. It is put in here as a comparison. Not possible at level 15.
Threatrange=10
Critmultiplier=2
Shuriken expertise, ninja spy, 10k stars, grandmaster of wind stance

First the seeker damage multiplier since the legend is on this graph and the normal damage multiplier:
http://i.imgur.com/u1BqOSi.png http://i.imgur.com/UtBO21I.png

As you can see the monkpaladin (warshuriken 40k) comes out on top in the seeker image. Followed by the bardshuriken build.

Again on the normal damage image the monkpal comes out on top followed by the monk and Artificer paladin (6 artificer 14 paladin using holy sword on the repeater - or something like that)

It should be noted that the bard swashbuckler is currently bugged and wont get the crit multiplier as described. see the threaad critzilla for more info.

The thing about these builds are that the monk builds will not get any bonuses to damage on hit - I am under the impression that lightning the candle only works on melee. Correct me if i am wrong. I stand corrected LTC works on throwing weapons. Graph updated.
The artificer builds on the other hand benefits from the rune arm imbue and music box i assume. Here is the multiplier of any damage that wont get multiplied on crits:
http://i.imgur.com/FzpviS3.png
This gives a obvius advantage to the repeater builds and the monk builds which has the same value on the graph. For the monks this is venomed blades forexample and for the repeater it is the imbue from the rune arm.

Edit:
Effects of sniper shot - Might not be right. Looking into it.
http://i.imgur.com/DfBU9HZ.png
It is assumed that every 7 shot is a sniper shot. For the repeater builds it is 3 shots and for the others it is multiplied by the doubleshot chance. In this case the artpal would actually be and ranger pal using a repeater.

Lightning the Candle vs Resonant arms:
http://i.imgur.com/p2FDNiA.png

For me the MonkPal, shuricannon, ArtPal builds are no good since i only do heroic stuff and they wont get really good till end game. So that leaves the Bardshuriken. But since he is bugged atm i think i go for an artificer. Artificer pure build since it can do some AOE spells that i like. I am trying one out right now and he seems to do good. I should say I only do stuff on Normal and Hard and very rarely on Elite and only Heroic quests.

Let me know what you think and if you have any questions or suggestions post it here and i will reply.

Bluegirl_Two
01-24-2015, 05:00 PM
I have no idea about any of these builds or if your assumptions of 1 shuriken and 2 bolts per second are accurate. That, of course, won't stop me from making some observations.

First, throwing has minimal reload time. Did you include reload time in your 2 bolts per second calculation?

Next, if the ratio is 1 shuriken to 2 bolts then does your calculation count per hit for the bolts or does it double the damage to make it a 1 to 1 comparison?

Third, do your artificer calculations include additional damage from both rune arm and elemental damage or deadly weapons?

Fourth, what happens if any of the weapons are Thunderforged?

Lastly, what does Harper Agent do to the builds since INT can be applied to hit and to damage in each case?

Ultinoob
01-25-2015, 05:43 AM
I have no idea about any of these builds or if your assumptions of 1 shuriken and 2 bolts per second are accurate. That, of course, won't stop me from making some observations.

First, throwing has minimal reload time. Did you include reload time in your 2 bolts per second calculation?
Yes. I fired 40 times 3 bolts in 60 seconds. this is 120 bolts a minute.


Next, if the ratio is 1 shuriken to 2 bolts then does your calculation count per hit for the bolts or does it double the damage to make it a 1 to 1 comparison?
I am not sure i undestand this question but ill try to answer. I calculated the multiplier for a normal attack for each second. I did actually count the hits but multipliying with two for double damage would give the same.


Third, do your artificer calculations include additional damage from both rune arm and elemental damage or deadly weapons?
I assumed that the artificer does 4d6 extra damage. This is damage that wont be multiplied on crits. I have found a better way of calculating this and will update my post accordingly. Deadly weapons is included in the base damage you do.


Fourth, what happens if any of the weapons are Thunderforged?
I am not completely sure what thunderforged is but it seems that it has increased base damage, but the crits are the same as a normal weapon. You simply calculate you base damage - the damage you do on non crits without the lightning rune arm. lets say this number is 20 damage. for an artpal on non fortified enemies you should multiply this number by 3.5 to get you average damage per second. which is 70. This is the average so on crits you will be doing much more damage and on non crits somewhat less.


Lastly, what does Harper Agent do to the builds since INT can be applied to hit and to damage in each case?
I assumed that you hit on a 2 in all cases. The int to damage doesn't really change anything. again you must guess you base damage and multiply it by the number in the graph.

I hope this answers your questions. If not feel free to repost.

Ultinoob
01-26-2015, 03:32 AM
Thank you.

I noticed i made and error in the monk build. I accidently divided the doubleshot chance of the monk with 100. I am currently working on correcting the error and updating the graphs.

Edit:
This error is corrected now

Ultinoob
01-26-2015, 04:11 AM
Way crazy impressive. The rate of fire in heroics is roughly 1 throw per second. I think it is around 1.4 throws/sec in epics. The crit multiplier for bard and paladin is bugged and doesn't work on live, but the sonic damage/sniper shots tossed in is roughly equal to another crit multiplier, so your math is roughly correct still for bard vs monk.

For Critzilla, Ranger Killer enhancement 15% + Bard Dashing Scoundrel 10% + 3 EPLs Double shot (9% total) will give you 34% double shot before items, which 10k stars reduces to 0. Sadly,t here aren't any double shot items in the game I would equip.

All the builds will use precision, so some fort isn't that bad. Since sonic damage on Critzilla will go off regardless of wether or not you bypass fort, it isn't any more or less reliant on crits than any other ranged build.

In my calculations i assumed that the bug was fixed. I also did some calculations on the sniper shot. I am not sure what sonic damage you are talking about from the bard. is it the music box? I would like to now so i can include it in my calculations.

I also need to make a graph of burst damage - such as holy burst. Do you know if this will always proc even if the crit is negated?

Saekee
01-27-2015, 08:55 AM
lighting the candle works on throwers and ranged weapons. It is nice for such uses since its consumption of 1 ki on hit does not matter. It is, however, costly to use.

Interesting calcs--will take a closer look later! thx

Ultinoob
01-27-2015, 09:42 AM
lighting the candle works on throwers and ranged weapons. It is nice for such uses since its consumption of 1 ki on hit does not matter. It is, however, costly to use.

Interesting calcs--will take a closer look later! thx

Thank you for clearing that up. Do you know if the crit part of lihgtning the candle will proc even if the crit is negated?
When i have more time i will compare this with bards resonant arms.

Saekee
01-27-2015, 10:12 AM
Thank you for clearing that up. Do you know if the crit part of lihgtning the candle will proc even if the crit is negated?
When i have more time i will compare this with bards resonant arms.

Hmmm not sure about crit/force--probably?

1) when you calculated shurikens, did you include the double chance to throw an extra one based on dex?
2) I would assume 60 dex as it is easy to achieve
3) drow venomed blades adds 1d8, commonly used on shuricannon builds. Since sting of ninja is nerfed for named shurikens, Firewall dumped it. Either way, venomed blades scales 200% with melee power; I assume that is so with ranged power as well.
4) a lot of shurican throwers use Cormyrian shuricans so somehow you must include the spellplague effect

mna
01-27-2015, 11:26 AM
Sonic damage is resonant arms, which goes off if crit is negated. Other burst effects I'm not sure on, like the monk lighting the candle. Firewall would know. I think enhancement ones work through fort, but weapon ones do not.

Huh, when did elemental burst stop working on high-fort mobs?

I mean, it's been a few months since I last took an icy burst weapon to Taming the Flames, but at the time the burst cold damage did happen on "crit" attack rolls even when regular crit damage got negated due to elementals having high fortification.

Or is this different for throwers than melee weapons? What about bows/crossbows?

Ultinoob
01-27-2015, 11:44 AM
EDIT: I made an error in calculating the effects of 10 k stars. I will correct it later today. Graphs in initial post are corrected, but they use 50 dex and not 60.


Hmmm not sure about crit/force--probably?

1) when you calculated shurikens, did you include the double chance to throw an extra one based on dex?
Yes. The math for 60 dex and shurikan expertise with advanced ninja training gives: 0.6*0.4+0.4*0.6+0.6*0.6*2=1.2 extra shurikens per attack


2) I would assume 60 dex as it is easy to achieve
Images for 60 dex:
http://i.imgur.com/WxucbSP.png http://i.imgur.com/Zfq4uOL.png
http://i.imgur.com/f3Upqgy.png http://i.imgur.com/XGzSpq7.png http://i.imgur.com/uYBzj8e.png



3) drow venomed blades adds 1d8, commonly used on shuricannon builds. Since sting of ninja is nerfed for named shurikens, Firewall dumped it. Either way, venomed blades scales 200% with melee power; I assume that is so with ranged power as well.
I updated the graphs. let me know if it does not make sense.



4) a lot of shurican throwers use Cormyrian shuricans so somehow you must include the spellplague effect
Hmm. I need more info regarding the lightning strike and spellplague effect. I will search google... Maybe you can help too?

Thanks for you reply :) please post another.

Saekee
01-27-2015, 11:50 AM
Just to emphasize--the feat: shuriken expertise and the ninja spy core 3 stack. So for every point of dex, a monk with the ninja spy core will twice have a 1% chance to throw an extra shuriken per attack. Hence a very high dex is key to such builds. Often a good shuri chucker will see 3 shurikens per throw; add 10K for extra burst damage. For this reason the bard shurichucker must use different calculations in that it will only have shuriken expertise, not the monk core (hence less stars) and will lack 10k.

Critzilla is based on one throw damage--the spike--whereas shurikens are based upon maxing the number of shurikens per throw (the crit range is extra damage of course, hence why Pally 14/6 monk may come out favorably).

Also note that equalizing stats may not do justice to builds. 3 levels of rogue gets access to 6 points of dex in the shdow dodge toggle. The BAB of thrower builds is also important since this affects the rate of fire heavily--hence one with Tenser's Transformation running will help (and give +4 dex). Note that running in divine crusader gives a full BAB and centered monks get a full BAB.

It is for this reason that Jakeleela's original meteor shower used wizard and rogue levels--+10 dex (tenser's and shadow toggle) and full BAB.

Finally, a shuricannon, since it is a pure ninja capstone, gets vorpals with shuricans. This comes out to 5 extra damage/hit, not counting the occasional instakills.

Saekee
01-27-2015, 11:53 AM
Just to emphasize--the feat: shuriken expertise and the ninja spy core 3 stack. So for every point of dex, a monk with the ninja spy core will twice have a 1% chance to throw an extra shuriken per attack. Hence a very high dex is key to such builds. Often a good shuri chucker will see 3 shurikens per throw; add 10K for extra burst damage. For this reason the bard shurichucker must use different calculations in that it will only have shuriken expertise, not the monk core (hence less stars) and will lack 10k.

Critzilla is based on one throw damage--the spike--whereas shurikens are based upon maxing the number of shurikens per throw (the crit range is extra damage of course, hence why Pally 14/6 monk may come out favorably).

Also note that equalizing stats may not do justice to builds. 3 levels of rogue gets access to 6 points of dex in the shdow dodge toggle. The BAB of thrower builds is also important since this affects the rate of fire heavily--hence one with Tenser's Transformation running will help (and give +4 dex). Note that running in divine crusader gives a full BAB and centered monks get a full BAB.

It is for this reason that Jakeleela's original meteor shower used wizard and rogue levels--+10 dex (tenser's and shadow toggle) and full BAB.

Finally, a shuricannon, since it is a pure ninja capstone, gets vorpals with shuricans. This comes out to 5 extra damage/hit, not counting the occasional instakills.

whoops got ninjad while typing!

Ultinoob
01-27-2015, 11:55 AM
Huh, when did elemental burst stop working on high-fort mobs?

I mean, it's been a few months since I last took an icy burst weapon to Taming the Flames, but at the time the burst cold damage did happen on "crit" attack rolls even when regular crit damage got negated due to elementals having high fortification.

Or is this different for throwers than melee weapons? What about bows/crossbows?

I would assume that it is the same. Do you know about holy burst if it works the same way. I mean if it procs even if the crit gets negated?

In the end i guess i will make a total calculation of damage per second of each build. Are there any builds i am missing?

Saekee
01-27-2015, 12:03 PM
Yes. The math for 60 dex and shurikan expertise with advanced ninja training gives: 0.6*0.4+0.4*0.6+0.6*0.6*2=1.2 extra shurikens per attack


Images for 60 dex:
http://i.imgur.com/WxucbSP.png http://i.imgur.com/Zfq4uOL.png
http://i.imgur.com/f3Upqgy.png http://i.imgur.com/XGzSpq7.png http://i.imgur.com/uYBzj8e.png



I updated the graphs. let me know if it does not make sense.



Hmm. I need more info regarding the lightning strike and spellplague effect. I will search google... Maybe you can help too?

Thanks for you reply :) please post another.

Spellplague essentially adds Colors of the Queen on each shuriken hit. It's...complicated.

The capstone of monk expands the threat range of shurikens and will not stack with halfling thrower. So a pure monk is better drow as thrower whereas a multiclass is better with halfling. A pure also gets vorpals as mentioned above.

I do not understand your damage graph. The others are clear and intuitive--an expanded threat range and high crit modifier will be favored with seeker bonuses and work best when it breaks fortification.

Saekee
01-27-2015, 12:09 PM
Of course there are many things to consider in this. One is that bows and bolts benefit from Past Life: Ranger for 2 points damage, up to 6 for 3 past lives. This is calculated before crit multipliers. Throwers do not get this benefit.

Also, Drow can add +4 damage onto shurikens before multipliers. Halflings can get 3d6 sneak attack damage which scales with ranged power and is situational (aggro and fortification).

The damage difference is Drow on a pure monk with 1d8 venomed blades and +4 Xendrick damage plus vorpal vs Halfling's 3d6 sneak on a multi.

Ultinoob
01-27-2015, 12:33 PM
Just to emphasize--the feat: shuriken expertise and the ninja spy core 3 stack. So for every point of dex, a monk with the ninja spy core will twice have a 1% chance to throw an extra shuriken per attack. Hence a very high dex is key to such builds. Often a good shuri chucker will see 3 shurikens per throw; add 10K for extra burst damage. For this reason the bard shurichucker must use different calculations in that it will only have shuriken expertise, not the monk core (hence less stars) and will lack 10k.

Critzilla is based on one throw damage--the spike--whereas shurikens are based upon maxing the number of shurikens per throw (the crit range is extra damage of course, hence why Pally 14/6 monk may come out favorably).

Also note that equalizing stats may not do justice to builds. 3 levels of rogue gets access to 6 points of dex in the shdow dodge toggle. The BAB of thrower builds is also important since this affects the rate of fire heavily--hence one with Tenser's Transformation running will help (and give +4 dex). Note that running in divine crusader gives a full BAB and centered monks get a full BAB.

It is for this reason that Jakeleela's original meteor shower used wizard and rogue levels--+10 dex (tenser's and shadow toggle) and full BAB.

Finally, a shuricannon, since it is a pure ninja capstone, gets vorpals with shuricans. This comes out to 5 extra damage/hit, not counting the occasional instakills.

The shuriken expertise and advanced ninja training is calculated correctly. On a bard shuriken using shuriken expertise it would simply be 0.6 extra throws per attack. I have included 10K stars in all monk builds and divided the number with 2 since it is only applicable half the time.
Equalising stats was something i did to make it easier for me and make it somewhat compareable without having the actual specific details of the builds.
The BAB: Yes i know it is important. Again i made a simplification. I assumed that you throw one shuriken - not including doublehot chance, shuriken expertise and attack speed bonus - per second. If you can give me the numbers of how the BAB influences the throwing speed i will gladly do the math - but until i have that I had to make an assumption.

Ninja capstone. Yes you are right i forgot about this. I will update the graphs when i have time. I do not however see how it is 5 extra damage per hit? what i see is an improved critical threat range. The instakill effect could be included somewhat in the math. EDIT: When i started these calculations i actually assumed you where around level 15. I am not sure what to do. Should i do the calculations for level 16 and level 20? It is a lot of calculations and graphs...

Regarding other shurikens than the Snow star. I did my calculations assuming you use the snow star. If you want me to do calculations on other shurikens please provide detailed information about the item. I do not mind doing the math but i need the details to do the math.

Thank you for your reply :)

Ultinoob
01-27-2015, 12:50 PM
Spellplague essentially adds Colors of the Queen on each shuriken hit. It's...complicated.

The capstone of monk expands the threat range of shurikens and will not stack with halfling thrower. So a pure monk is better drow as thrower whereas a multiclass is better with halfling. A pure also gets vorpals as mentioned above.

I do not understand your damage graph. The others are clear and intuitive--an expanded threat range and high crit modifier will be favored with seeker bonuses and work best when it breaks fortification.

Yes the damage graph. The name is somewhat misleading. This is the multiplier of any damage you do that is not influenced by crits. for example a rune arm imbue would do 4d6=14 damage on average. You have to multiply this value with the numer for the pure build artifcer if that is your build - about 2.2: 14*2.2=30.8 averaged each second. This would also be the case for venomed blades.

Hope this makes it clearer otherwise please repost :)

EDIT: On said graph the pure build monk and the monkpal shares the same line...

Firewall
01-27-2015, 12:59 PM
I only gave this a casual readthrough but from what i see you calculations are very very very far from the actual game reality. Only a few examples from my casual glance regarding the Shuricannon:

- since when have Shuricannons ever been halfling? They were always drow and used Venomed Blades and especially Xendrik Weapon Training for higher base damage at full throwing distance. Shuricannons don't need halfling because they get a bigger (+2) crit threat range from the Ninja Spy capstone. Halfling Sneak Attack damage is subject to fortification and only works in Sneak Attack range.

- the actual U24 version of the Shuricannon with max DPS is found in my Shuricannon 2.0 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/452990-Shuricannon-2-0?p=5491463#post5491463) build. The one you link is outdated for some time already. The new version also makes use of Know the Angles and other Harper Tree damage bonuses and DEX.

- did you include Venomed Blades (which scales with 200% melee power) and Sneak Attack damage (which scales with 100% melee power) in those builds?

- I would argue most - if not all - throwers would run in Legendary Dreadnaught for max damage. This can be more or less advantageous for some builds (e.g. no DEX, WIS, CHA, INT bonus to take)

- No shuriken thrower would use a Snowstar in epic levels. You would always use Thunderforged in endgame. Mostly because of the Tier 2 (Dragon's Edge) and Tier 3 (Crippling Strike, Burning Emptiness) on-crit damage which is independant of fortification and also of course because of the high base damage and Mortal Fear. Most probably even other throwers would use Thunderforged above anything else. Even if you WOULD use Snowstar it has a crit range of 18-20 which the Ninja Spy capstone would bring to 16-20 which would then be doubled by IC:Thrown so the threat range by my calculation would be 10 and not 8.

- Monk DEX based throwers all achieve way higher DEX values than 50. The same can be done for WIS depending on tomes, ED, items, completionist etc.. Also note that 2 points of DEX give +4% chance to throw a shuriken and +1 base damage.

- as i posted in my thread shuricannons can have both benefits from Water and Mountain Stance if you switch to Water for +4 WIS when activating 10k and then switch back to Mountain for x1 crit multiplier on 19 and 20. (With the high base damage in Legendary Dreadnaught x1 crit multi on 19 and 20 is more valuable than +4 DEX from Wind Stance)

- did you use Overwhelming Critical, Mountain Stance, ED crit bonuses, damage boosts, etc. in your calculations?

- builds - in my opinion - should be compared by what is possible at maximum performance (e.g. what is max DEX, WIS,..., which feats can be included, enhancements, max items, weapons,...). For example some builds cannot spare a feat slot for completionist which can make a big difference for builds that use many stats for damage (e.g. DEX, WIS, INT for damage on a Shuricannon 2.0)

- in the current endgame throwers will have between 80% and 95% armor piercing because crits are so powerful

This is only a quick list from my casual glance from the perspective of the Shuricannon 2.0. I'm sure there are other issues with some of the other builds also which probably will make a huge difference in your graphs.

Firewall
01-27-2015, 01:37 PM
- I would argue most - if not all - throwers would run in Legendary Dreadnaught for max damage. This can be more or less advantageous for some builds (e.g. no DEX, WIS, CHA, INT bonus to take)

Maybe i should add that throwers making use of Arrow of Slaying would probably use Fury of the Wild and might still use heroic weapons for the expanded crit profile.

I find it a bit strange that you include a build that is not performing as you describe right now (Warshuriken 40k). The bug with the crit range will probably not be fixed until the ranged pass which is not far away. But all the changes with the ranged pass will most likely turn our thrower world upside down with the introduction of more sources of ranged power and the already announced changes to 10k stars and Manyshot (and probably other stuff).

(And why did you put this into the New Player Advice section?)

Ultinoob
01-27-2015, 01:44 PM
I only gave this a casual readthrough but from what i see you calculations are very very very far from the actual game reality. Only a few examples from my casual glance regarding the Shuricannon:

Firewall posting in my thread. What an honor :)


- since when have Shuricannons ever been halfling? They were always drow and used Venomed Blades and especially Xendrik Weapon Training for higher base damage at full throwing distance. Shuricannons don't need halfling because they get a bigger (+2) crit threat range from the Ninja Spy capstone. Halfling Sneak Attack damage is subject to fortification and only works in Sneak Attack range.

Yes. You are right. Others have mentioned this too. I will correct this and link to your newest build.


- the actual U24 version of the Shuricannon with max DPS is found in my Shuricannon 2.0 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/452990-Shuricannon-2-0?p=5491463#post5491463) build. The one you link is outdated for some time already. The new version also makes use of Know the Angles and other Harper Tree damage bonuses and DEX.

Know the angles is hard to include as i need the int score. What you can do is add this to your base damage when you have your int score and multiply the total number with the number found in the graph.




- did you include Venomed Blades (which scales with 200% melee power) and Sneak Attack damage (which scales with 100% melee power) in those builds?
Well yes and no. Venomed blades is included in the graph called ”Normal damage per average hit”. You have to multiply it (the average 1d8=4.5) by the number found in the graph.


- I would argue most - if not all - throwers would run in Legendary Dreadnaught for max damage. This can be more or less advantageous for some builds (e.g. no DEX, WIS, CHA, INT bonus to take)

When i did my first calculations i assumed you where level 15. Others have mentioned the error with the shuricannon and the capstone. So now we are at level 20. legendary dreadnaught takes us to 28. I never played a character beyond level 20... Not really sure what to do here. I think i will assume you are level 20. If needed i can do another thread for end game.


- No shuriken thrower would use a Snowstar in epic levels. You would always use Thunderforged in endgame. Mostly because of the Tier 2 (Dragon's Edge) and Tier 3 (Crippling Strike, Burning Emptiness) on-crit damage which is independant of fortification and also of course because of the high base damage and Mortal Fear. Most probably even other throwers would use Thunderforged above anything else. Even if you WOULD use Snowstar it has a crit range of 18-20 which the Ninja Spy capstone would bring to 16-20 which would then be doubled by IC:Thrown so the threat range by my calculation would be 10 and not 8.

Again you are correct. I will update the graphs with regards to the threat range with the capstone. But These calculations where not meant for end game.


- Monk DEX based throwers all achieve way higher DEX values than 50. The same can be done for WIS depending on tomes, ED, items, completionist etc.. Also note that 2 points of DEX give +4% chance to throw a shuriken and +1 base damage.

I assume you are saying +4% becouse of shuriken expertise and advanced ninja training stacking. The math would be in this case: 0.02*(1-0.02)*2+0.02*0.02*2=0.04... Yes you are right.


- as i posted in my thread shuricannons can have both benefits from Water and Mountain Stance if you switch to Water for +4 WIS when activating 10k and then switch back to Mountain for x1 crit multiplier on 19 and 20. (With the high base damage in Legendary Dreadnaught x1 crit multi on 19 and 20 is more valuable than +4 DEX from Wind Stance)

If you want me to i can do the math on specific builds if you need me to.


- did you use Overwhelming Critical, Mountain Stance, ED crit bonuses, damage boosts, etc. in your calculations?

No. I assumed you where level 20 at max. Damage boost goes into the graph that you multiply you base damage with.


- builds - in my opinion - should be compared by what is possible at maximum performance (e.g. what is max DEX, WIS,..., which feats can be included, enhancements, max items, weapons,...). For example some builds cannot spare a feat slot for completionist which can make a big difference for builds that use many stats for damage (e.g. DEX, WIS, INT for damage on a Shuricannon 2.0)

I initially did this as a calculation to see which build would best sooth my needs of going from level 1-20. The halfling was taken as i would get more levels with the +1 crit range than the +2 from the capstone.


- in the current endgame throwers will have between 80% and 95% armor piercing because crits are so powerful

This can easily be apllied to the graphs.


This is only a quick list from my casual glance from the perspective of the Shuricannon 2.0. I'm sure there are other issues with some of the other builds also which probably will make a huge difference in your graphs.

And when they arise i will update the graphs :)

Ultinoob
01-27-2015, 01:51 PM
Maybe i should add that throwers making use of Arrow of Slaying would probably use Fury of the Wild and might still use heroic weapons for the expanded crit profile.

I find it a bit strange that you include a build that is not performing as you describe right now (Warshuriken 40k). The bug with the crit range will probably not be fixed until the ranged pass which is not far away. But all the changes with the ranged pass will most likely turn our thrower world upside down with the introduction of more sources of ranged power and the already announced changes to 10k stars and Manyshot (and probably other stuff).

(And why did you put this into the New Player Advice section?)

Yes arrows of slaying was actually something i had in mind. As stated i did this as a help for myself to see which build would sooth me best from level 1-20. When they change everything this thread will be outdated and i will try to make a new one. I was hoping that they would change it sooner than later though. EDIT: I mean change the crit for warshuriken.

I posted it in the New player advice becouse i was only allowed to upload images to this part of the forums. Then i found out i had to use imgur and had allready started the thread. so it ended up here. I will be more carefull in the future where i start new threads.

Firewall
01-27-2015, 03:08 PM
Well if this was meant as a level 1-20 build i didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the thread so far - maybe my fault them.
For a level 1-20 build the Shuricannon is not really very powerful since it starts to get almost all benefits at level 20. The Shuricannon was never meant as a heroic leveling build.
In that case i'm very surprised that your calculations indicate it should perform very well in heroics. A bard thrower should be far ahead in heroic levels from level 3+. Paladins start being good at level 14+ with Holy Sword. Pure Monks at level 20+.

If you really calculate this as a level 20 build you still have to take into account full Epic Destiny trees since people with even only one epic past life will have maxed at least the one epic destiny which works best for them. And you get access to all tiers of a maxed ED at level 20 already.

Thunderforged Weapons of course do not apply to a level 20 build.

Ultinoob
01-27-2015, 03:32 PM
No you are right. I was not clear on that. I updated the post also to notify people of this.

I will have to look into the epic destinies but for now i have to leave them out. I am tired and have to sleep. The problem with the bard thrower is that it is still bugged. From what i undestand you get the increased threat range but not the crit multiplier so it is not as good as the graphs shows.

Yes the monk ranger halfling would be a good build for levels 1-20. The only problem with it is that it lacks the AOE. I have a pure build artificer atm and i am really enjoing using the spells when the mobs are all around me. That combined with the two summonings and a hireling makes me having a small party even when i solo - which i do mostly.

I am not a power gamer. I play for fun. I had some spare time and did the calculations becouse i thought it would be fun and maybe somebody could use them. I am sorry if I mislead you. Or anybody else. That was never my intention.

Bottom line is the shuricannon at level 20 even without ED is a very good ranged build. And i didn't even include the improved crit multiplier on 19-20 from mountain stance. I would like to compare it to a Monchar at some point but that will be in the future. It could also be interesting to do a elf or half elf monk that uses arrows of slaying. I think this will have slightly better odds against bosses than the bard using coupe de grace. arh more math. I am tired now.

Ultinoob
01-28-2015, 05:11 AM
Comparison of level 15 builds.
36 dex, 28 wisdom on all builds. Seeker +6 on all builds. No doubleshot from killer.

Drow shuriken thrower:
Master of forms. Wind stance. +3 dex 0.125 increased attack speed. 10 k stars half the time. Lightning the candle for 1d4 on normal hits and 3d6 for confirmed crits. 1D8 extra damage from venomed blades.
Threatrange=6, multiplier=2
Base damage: assuming dex to dam. (39-10)/2.=14.5. assuming deadly item +5. assuming +3 enhancement bounus to item. Assuming xendrik weapon training +4. Total 26.5

Halfling shuriken thrower:
Master of forms. Wind stance. +3 dex 0.125 increased attack speed. 10 k stars half the time. Lightning the candle for 1d4 on normal hits and 3d6 for confirmed crits.
Threatrange=8, multiplier=2
Base damage: assuming dex to dam. (39-10)/2.=14.5. assuming deadly item +5. assuming +3 enhancement bounus to item. Total 22.5

Bard shuriken thrower.
Swashbuckling with nothing in off hand. Speed item +0.1 attack speed. +0.1 doubleshot from dashing scoundrel. No exploit weaknesses as it is too hard to put into the math. Resonant arms. Sniper shot procced on every 6.66 second. Assuming halfling dex to damage.
Threatrange=10, multiplier=3
Base damage: assuming dex to dam. (36-10)/2.=13. assuming deadly item +5. assuming +3 enhancement bounus to item. Total 21

Bard shuriken Artificer thrower.
Swashbuckling with rune arm in off hand (assuming +4d6). Speed item 0.1. No exploit weaknesses as it is too hard to put into the math. Resonant arms. Sniper shot procced on every 6.66 second. Assuming halfling dex to damage.
Threatrange=10, multiplier=3
Base damage: assuming dex to dam. (36-10)/2.=13. assuming deadly item +5. assuming +3 enhancement bounus to item. Total 21

Art 2 ranger 6 fighter 8 repeater build
Rune arm imbue assuming 3d6. Speed item 0.1. sniper shot procced on every 6.66 seconds. Assuming int to damage.. Fighter keen edge.
Threatrange=6, multiplier=2
Base damage: assuming int to dam. (36-10)/2.=13. assuming deadly item +5. assuming +3 enhancement bounus to item. +3 damage from fighter enhancements. +2 damage from weapon specialisation: Total 26

http://i.imgur.com/MfH97B0.png http://i.imgur.com/xwacRwY.png
EDIT: The latter image shows the bard builds with and improved crit range by +1. This is to approximate the effects of exploit weaknesses.

Did i forget anything?

Saekee
01-28-2015, 10:08 AM
I am not sure if wind stance affects range attack speed

For full effects of BAB, there are some links within this one: http://m.ddowiki.com/page/Base_Attack_Bonus

Exploit weakness--someone calculated it once. For simplicity, I suggest just adding another point to the threat range

Ultinoob
01-28-2015, 11:08 AM
It does affect throwing attack speed: http://ddowiki.com/page/Master_of_Forms

Thanks i will look at the links. Edit: I looked over the link and it seems that the BAB analysis was made without rapid shot/quick draw and rapid reload. I think we need new info on this subject. Any ideas?

The thing about exploit weaknesses is that the threatrange of the bard is allready 10. so this would in an ideal world be crit, non crit, crit etc. so the exploit weaknesses would not have time to proc. You are right that it can be calculated. But it is hard. I will think about how to do it. I will do the calculations assuming one more threatrange of all the bard builds and update my post.

Firewall
01-28-2015, 05:19 PM
(...)1-19 though my experience says that stacking crit/crit multiplier/crit effects/IPS as early as possible is the way to go.(...)

I agree with Tilomere. If you only want to level from 1-20 i would go with a build that gets most bonuses early. A Shuricannon might not be the best choice for that. I'd probably also include arti or rogue to get 30% XP bonus from traps. Most people working on pastlifes for example only plan for levels 1-18 because you can blue bar to 20 and then immediately reincarnate.

If you compare builds at specific levels that is only a snapshot and will differ heavily throughout the leveling process.

If you want to compare level 15 builds i would also take into account the really easy to get ML15 gear from Wheloon quest endrewards with +8 DEX and STR items and such.

Saekee
01-28-2015, 08:05 PM
It does affect throwing attack speed: http://ddowiki.com/page/Master_of_Forms

.

Just checked on my character--wind stance, as I suspected, does not boost ranged attack speed, unless it is just a visual error (I went by the character sheet mouseover).

Rykka
01-28-2015, 10:40 PM
(And why did you put this into the New Player Advice section?)

Maybe he thinks Sev won't look here?

Ultinoob
01-29-2015, 04:08 AM
Maybe he thinks Sev won't look here?

Who is Sev and what did I miss. I am thinking about moving this thread. Would the correct place be in Gameplay and Gamesystems?

Ultinoob
01-29-2015, 04:11 AM
Just checked on my character--wind stance, as I suspected, does not boost ranged attack speed, unless it is just a visual error (I went by the character sheet mouseover).

Then the DDO wiki is wrong.

Ultinoob
01-29-2015, 04:21 AM
I agree with Tilomere. If you only want to level from 1-20 i would go with a build that gets most bonuses early. A Shuricannon might not be the best choice for that. I'd probably also include arti or rogue to get 30% XP bonus from traps. Most people working on pastlifes for example only plan for levels 1-18 because you can blue bar to 20 and then immediately reincarnate.

If you compare builds at specific levels that is only a snapshot and will differ heavily throughout the leveling process.

If you want to compare level 15 builds i would also take into account the really easy to get ML15 gear from Wheloon quest endrewards with +8 DEX and STR items and such.

Thanks. I usually include trapping skills in my builds.

Yes they will differ. I would like to do a total comparison of all builds through all levels but that is a daunting task. I have to start somewhere. I am currently doing some testing on some of my repeater builds and it looks like i am wrong. They do not fire 2 bolts a second but more like 1.75. I need to get some data from throwers though. If anybody woud care to do this test for me it would be great: Measure the time it takes to throw 500 shurikens or whatever you throw. please provide BAB and feats, speed enhancements doubleshot chance etc. preferaby around level 15.

I will also do some testing myself but i do not currently have a good thrower.

I am trying to campare the builds without taking into account gear.

Saekee
01-29-2015, 07:19 AM
Thanks. I usually include trapping skills in my builds.

Yes they will differ. I would like to do a total comparison of all builds through all levels but that is a daunting task. I have to start somewhere. I am currently doing some testing on some of my repeater builds and it looks like i am wrong. They do not fire 2 bolts a second but more like 1.75. I need to get some data from throwers though. If anybody woud care to do this test for me it would be great: Measure the time it takes to throw 500 shurikens or whatever you throw. please provide BAB and feats, speed enhancements doubleshot chance etc. preferaby around level 15.

I will also do some testing myself but i do not currently have a good thrower.

I am trying to campare the builds without taking into account gear.

Jakeleela made extensive studies on throwing speeds and produced a graph. He made several builds like The Meteor Shower, Tinkerhell, et al. He really mastered the mechanic. Am on an Iphone so can't find it easily but if you are willing to search the forums with those titles, it should come up.

Ultinoob
01-29-2015, 08:27 AM
I did some testing of my own. At it seems that the number of animations per attack is not a good way of counting the attacks. I have posted what i have currently got. I still think it is too soon to extrapolate anything from the data. If you would like to help get any number of shurikens but more than 100. throw all of them and time it. Let me know what feats you have your BAB. Preferably done without doubleshot chance and with both without and with increase in attack speed. If you do so please post you result in this thread. Edit: You can do the same for a repeater but please use atleast 300 bolts. The same for a bow but please use atleast 100 arrows.

Level 12 artificer. BAB 9, rapid reload. No rapid shot. 49 animations. 1:27.16 s 60+27=87 seconds. 49*3/87=1,689655172413793 animations per second.

109 animations for 300 shots. Took 3 min 21.9 seconds.
300/201.9 s=1.49 shots per second.
109*3/201.9=1.62 animations per second.


327 animations for 900 bolts.
9 min 57.4 seconds.=597.4 seconds
900/ 597.4=1.507 bolts per second.
327/597.4=0.547 full shot and reloads per second.
2.752 bolts per animation..

Level 12 artificer.
BAB 9, rapid reload. No rapid shot. no doubleshot. No increased attack speed. No quick draw.
About 103 animations. I lost count but more than 100.
100 shurikens in 2 min 41.3 seconds=161.3 seconds.
100/161.3=0.620 shurikens per second.



BAB 12. Art 9 ranger 6 rogue 1. Rapid reload. Rapid shot. 3% doubleshot. Ranged attack speed bonus 10%
330 animations
900 shots. Time 8 min 33.1 seconds=513.1 seconds:
900/513.1=1.7540 bolts per second.
330/513.1=0.643 full shots and reload animations per second.
900/330=2.727 bolts per animation.

BAB 12. Art 9 ranger 6 rogue 1. Rapid reload. Rapid shot. no 3% doubleshot. No increased attack speed.
332 animations
900. Time 8 min 53.4 seconds=533.4
1.6873 bolts per second.
332/533.4=0.6224 full shots and reload animations per second.

BAB 12. Art 9 ranger 6 rogue 1. Rapid reload. Rapid shot. no 3% doubleshot. 10% increased attack speed.
340 animations. 900 bolts. Time 8 min 43.8 seconds=523,8 seconds
900/523.8=1.718 bolts per second
340/523.8=0,649 full shots and reloads per second.

11 animations 30 bolts. 30 Bolts gives 30 attacks.



BAB 12. Art 9 ranger 6 rogue 1. Rapid reload. Rapid shot. no 3% doubleshot. 10% increased attack speed. No quick draw. Throwing with rune arm that gives 10% ranged attack speed.
341 animations. Time 6 min 37.6 seconds= 397.6. 277 shirkens thrown.
277/397.6=0.69668 shurikens per second.

Rune arm with 10% increased attack speed.
126 animations. 100 shurikens. 2 min 24.6 seconds=144.6 seconds.
100/144.6=0.6916 shurikens per second.

126 animations
rune arm with no increased attack speed. 100 shurikens in 2 min 32.5 seconds=152.5
0.6557 shurikens per second.

128 animations. 100 shurikens. No rune arm. No increased attack speed. 2 min 36 seconds=156 seconds.
100/156=0.641 shurikens per second.
(0.656+0.641)/2=0.6485 round up to 0.65.
0.69/0.65=1.062 so an increase in 10 % attack speed only gives 6%

JamesNiels
02-07-2015, 01:22 AM
I only gave this a casual readthrough but from what i see you calculations are very very very far from the actual game reality. Only a few examples from my casual glance regarding the Shuricannon:

- since when have Shuricannons ever been halfling? They were always drow and used Venomed Blades and especially Xendrik Weapon Training for higher base damage at full throwing distance. Shuricannons don't need halfling because they get a bigger (+2) crit threat range from the Ninja Spy capstone. Halfling Sneak Attack damage is subject to fortification and only works in Sneak Attack range.

- the actual U24 version of the Shuricannon with max DPS is found in my Shuricannon 2.0 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/452990-Shuricannon-2-0?p=5491463#post5491463) build. The one you link is outdated for some time already. The new version also makes use of Know the Angles and other Harper Tree damage bonuses and DEX.

- did you include Venomed Blades (which scales with 200% melee power) and Sneak Attack damage (which scales with 100% melee power) in those builds?

- I would argue most - if not all - throwers would run in Legendary Dreadnaught for max damage. This can be more or less advantageous for some builds (e.g. no DEX, WIS, CHA, INT bonus to take)

- No shuriken thrower would use a Snowstar in epic levels. You would always use Thunderforged in endgame. Mostly because of the Tier 2 (Dragon's Edge) and Tier 3 (Crippling Strike, Burning Emptiness) on-crit damage which is independant of fortification and also of course because of the high base damage and Mortal Fear. Most probably even other throwers would use Thunderforged above anything else. Even if you WOULD use Snowstar it has a crit range of 18-20 which the Ninja Spy capstone would bring to 16-20 which would then be doubled by IC:Thrown so the threat range by my calculation would be 10 and not 8.

- Monk DEX based throwers all achieve way higher DEX values than 50. The same can be done for WIS depending on tomes, ED, items, completionist etc.. Also note that 2 points of DEX give +4% chance to throw a shuriken and +1 base damage.

- as i posted in my thread shuricannons can have both benefits from Water and Mountain Stance if you switch to Water for +4 WIS when activating 10k and then switch back to Mountain for x1 crit multiplier on 19 and 20. (With the high base damage in Legendary Dreadnaught x1 crit multi on 19 and 20 is more valuable than +4 DEX from Wind Stance)

- did you use Overwhelming Critical, Mountain Stance, ED crit bonuses, damage boosts, etc. in your calculations?

- builds - in my opinion - should be compared by what is possible at maximum performance (e.g. what is max DEX, WIS,..., which feats can be included, enhancements, max items, weapons,...). For example some builds cannot spare a feat slot for completionist which can make a big difference for builds that use many stats for damage (e.g. DEX, WIS, INT for damage on a Shuricannon 2.0)

- in the current endgame throwers will have between 80% and 95% armor piercing because crits are so powerful

This is only a quick list from my casual glance from the perspective of the Shuricannon 2.0. I'm sure there are other issues with some of the other builds also which probably will make a huge difference in your graphs.

How do you get 95% fortification bypass?

Firewall
02-07-2015, 05:05 PM
How do you get 95% fortification bypass?

I explained it in my Shuricannon 2.0 thread:


- up to 95% Armor Piercing: 80% (=35% Dragon's Edge, 15% twisted Grim Precision, 25% Precision Stance, 5% Trapsmith's Workshop) +15% with slotted Deconstructor (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Deconstructor) augment

Against Constructs you could also use a Blasting Chime (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Blasting_Chime) with Weaken Construct (http://ddowiki.com/page/Weaken_Construct) on it.

If you are a bard thrower in light armor you can also use a Mournlode Armor (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Mournlode_Chain) with Weaken Undead (http://ddowiki.com/page/Weaken_Undead) on it.

So theoretically even higher amounts are possible.