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View Full Version : Change Vulkoor's Avatar to a pet



Rofaust
01-22-2015, 05:13 AM
Of all the level 6 cleric abilities, this one has to be the most lackluster. A cool-looking but relatively weak summon that doesn't scale with level... Change it to a pet like a PM's skeleton or the druid's wolf and suddenly this ability has real value. Opening doors, attack/defense modes, maybe intimidate or cleave functions would all be more incentive to start playing drow again. It would make more sense to me for the summon to level with the caster like a wolf or skellie - I know that would be a significant increase in power from its current state, but in all fairness the ability is pretty useless as it is and we might as well have nothing at all.
While we're on the topic of usefulness of level 6 cleric abilities, how about we lower the cool down on some if not all of them? Exorcism and Sovereignty could be pretty useful if the cool downs weren't longer than a lot of adventures :/ Undying call is incredibly useful to have at level 6 but once you hit 9 and get raise it doesn't make much sense to wait 10 minutes to res someone. If all your "special ability" does is save you the sp of casting another spell you can already cast once every 10 minutes, why bother? These abilities have been far out paced post MotU - Amaunator's Brilliance was added but clerics of other deities have not kept pace. Can we cut the cool downs to 1 or 2 minutes?

bsquishwizzy
01-22-2015, 11:37 AM
In that case, why can't a wizzy have their summons to be a pet as well?

I honestly never use the PM pet, and have never missed it. But my concern would be that pumping power into every class having a "pet" is going to cause problems.

Lastly, and avatar is a representation, and is sentient. So that means you can't basically tell it what to do, which - be definition - disqualifies it from being a command-able per.

Rofaust
01-22-2015, 04:44 PM
In that case, why can't a wizzy have their summons to be a pet as well?

I honestly never use the PM pet, and have never missed it. But my concern would be that pumping power into every class having a "pet" is going to cause problems.

Lastly, and avatar is a representation, and is sentient. So that means you can't basically tell it what to do, which - be definition - disqualifies it from being a command-able per.

Not sure what you mean? Wizzies do summon their skellies as a pet on top of the summon monster spells brd/clr/fvs/sor/wiz get. I'm not saying every class or even every cleric should get a pet. I'm saying drow who worship Vulkoor should get their moneys worth :) that's fine if you don't use the PM's pet, in that case this ability may not be for you, but plenty of other people do and I think would appreciate having this little extra flavor to an underpowered race-class combo. As for sentience, players already order around human and elven hirelings who have free-will like the robots they are lol Even a druid's animal companion in PnP lore is not a servant to the druid but a companion and friend, yet they still get a bar and we order them around like hirelings.

General_Gronker
01-23-2015, 09:59 AM
In that case, why can't a wizzy have their summons to be a pet as well? Luckily, the skeleton is.


I honestly never use the PM pet, and have never missed it. But my concern would be that pumping power into every class having a "pet" is going to cause problems. SO, in other words, you have nothing upon which to base your opinion then. Not even basic knowledge.


and is sentient. SO are artificer dogs and druid companions. You aren't even using the word "definition" correctly, and you're misunderstanding your own flawed description. You literally have no idea what you're talking about on this subject.

As for the OP, yeah, sure. I've got no problem with that idea.

bsquishwizzy
01-27-2015, 08:11 AM
Not sure what you mean? Wizzies do summon their skellies as a pet on top of the summon monster spells brd/clr/fvs/sor/wiz get. I'm not saying every class or even every cleric should get a pet. I'm saying drow who worship Vulkoor should get their moneys worth :) that's fine if you don't use the PM's pet, in that case this ability may not be for you, but plenty of other people do and I think would appreciate having this little extra flavor to an underpowered race-class combo. As for sentience, players already order around human and elven hirelings who have free-will like the robots they are lol Even a druid's animal companion in PnP lore is not a servant to the druid but a companion and friend, yet they still get a bar and we order them around like hirelings.

There is more than one wizard PrE. Do AMs have pets? No. They get summons, and summons only. Neither do EKs. Do Sorcs get pets? Not that I am aware of. So the PM Skeleton companion is not across the board.

As for an Avatar - it is a representation of a God. Neither hirelings, a druid companion, nor an arties pet fall in that classification. You don't go around commanding a god what to do. It generally isn't good Juju.

Lastly, Drow already get SR and stat boosts. Piling a pet on top of that seems a bit much.

bsquishwizzy
01-27-2015, 11:39 AM
Luckily, the skeleton is.

SO, in other words, you have nothing upon which to base your opinion then. Not even basic knowledge.

SO are artificer dogs and druid companions. You aren't even using the word "definition" correctly, and you're misunderstanding your own flawed description. You literally have no idea what you're talking about on this subject.

Ok, tell me just how many race / class combinations have pets?

Or…how many races in the game have companions?

All right. Now, how many race / class combos in the game have companions?

Companions, exclusively, are restricted to classes - not races. So that means that what the OP is asking is a major departure from what we have now. And doing so would require a new iconic race / class combination which would most likely start at lvl 15 as that’s where iconics start in the game. It’s HIGHLY unlikely that is going happen given that a Drow Cleric of Vulkoor just doesn’t leap to mind as an “iconic” D&D class.

Secondly, on the avatar front, the first version of D&D defined stats for actual deities in the game. As D&D progressed, the stats originally defined for these deities became laughable (the original game powercreep had created this condition), so the focus of stats when it came to deities were to their “avatars” – representations of the deities themselves in the material plane.

Tell me, in D&D, would you actually “command” the avatar of a deity? The DM would have your toon turned into a pile of ash just to make a point.

Finally, my first time through PM I went the skelly pet route. It required a lot of investment that I wanted elsewhere, so I re-speced and got rid of it. Some people love companions, some don’t. I wasn’t a fan when it came to the PM companions. Not saying that it’s bad, just not for me.

dunklezhan
01-27-2015, 11:54 AM
As for an Avatar - it is a representation of a God. Neither hirelings, a druid companion, nor an arties pet fall in that classification. You don't go around commanding a god what to do. It generally isn't good Juju.



For the purposes of a video game, I would simply assume that the character in question phrased the 'command' nicely, as a question and in keeping with their deities preferred syntax, and thus it agrees to do what the player has selected from the command bar.

Sometimes, verisimilitude does require at least a bit of imagination. The other thing you could do is give that pet a 5% command failure rate... but how would you tell that apart from all the times that the pet just bugged out? :)

Saekee
01-27-2015, 12:19 PM
Tell me, in D&D, would you actually “command” the avatar of a deity? The DM would have your toon turned into a pile of ash just to make a point.


Hah that is nothing--try my little Catholic Italian mother's 'prayer' negotiations. Her prayers, til now, are unmet (my dad survives.)
Yet she still attends Mass.

OP I like your suggestion.

bsquishwizzy
01-27-2015, 02:43 PM
Hah that is nothing--try my little Catholic Italian mother's 'prayer' negotiations. Her prayers, til now, are unmet (my dad survives.)
Yet she still attends Mass.

OP I like your suggestion.

At first I chuckled, and then I sorta stopped as I thought about it. Not sure if that's funny or, uh, disturbing.

That being said, that's more along the lines of "petition" and not actual "commandment."

bsquishwizzy
01-27-2015, 02:52 PM
For the purposes of a video game, I would simply assume that the character in question phrased the 'command' nicely, as a question and in keeping with their deities preferred syntax, and thus it agrees to do what the player has selected from the command bar.

Sometimes, verisimilitude does require at least a bit of imagination. The other thing you could do is give that pet a 5% command failure rate... but how would you tell that apart from all the times that the pet just bugged out? :)

Maybe. I know I'm being a bit picky here with the actual definition.

However, the OP did point out that this was something he wanted targeted to Drow, did they not? I think the only way you'd get that is if they opened up to all classes in general. And I think that this would end up being a bigger issue being that right now it is a summon, and most likely tied to summon logic. But race / class specifics? Or even specifically tied to a race? I really don't think that's going to happen for reasons I've already mentioned.

Saekee
01-27-2015, 04:24 PM
At first I chuckled, and then I sorta stopped as I thought about it. Not sure if that's funny or, uh, disturbing.

That being said, that's more along the lines of "petition" and not actual "commandment."

Lol that was my desired effect!

Rofaust
01-28-2015, 06:08 PM
That escalated lol. Like it or not, deity choice and derivative abilities like Vulkoor's Avatar are already limited to race/class combinations: only drow divines can worship Vulkoor and get the summon, only elves get undying court/lv6 raise dead, only WF and BF can worship the lord of blades and get bladesworn transformation; anyone can worship the flame and the host and get their special abilities but there already exist 3 race/class specific combinations, (4 if you count iconics) one of which is a summon. And just to be clear the ability is called Avatar of Vulkoor but it summons a scorrow, which you fight in quests - fairly mundane a monster, not an actual deity's avatar. Scorrow was chosen because they're part of Vulkoor's portfolio; if this was Greyhawk and the ability was called Ehlonna's Avatar it would probably summon a unicorn, not a lesser version of the elven goddess. A deity's actual avatar would never be CR 10, so I can only assume you're summoning one of Vulkoor's chosen race, not his actual avatar. As for just being a summon, PM's skeleton used to be just a summon until about update 10 when they got a bar to make the ability more relevant and appealing - what I'm saying is for this particular drow-cleric ability to remain relevant in a game fast outpacing old content, it needs a similar revamp to be useful at all. A CR 10 summon at level 28? come on. Of course some people may never be happy with pets, and that's ok - they're not for everyone, but that's no reason to deny them to those of us who like them.