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View Full Version : Does Know the Angles gimp you?



jadiusmaximus
01-22-2015, 12:36 AM
So i'm still thinking about trying to build a char that 'feels' like a Bladesinger. Because i really have no idea how/if rune arms are good i'm steering away from single weapon fighting and rune arm and instead was thinking of going 14 tempest 6 eldritch knight. i was going to use harper to stack INT for know the angles and using int for hit/dam. so 2 questions really

1) is just the concept itself dumb?

2) more importantly is having your hit/dam built around int gimp you with regards to dex for reflex saves or STR checks or whatever?

FranOhmsford
01-22-2015, 12:56 AM
The closest thing to a Bladesinger in DDO would be a Wizard/Swashbuckler using SWF {no shield}.

No idea how many Bard levels you'd have to take.
And Your DC Casting would most likely be pretty weak.

BUT

The idea of Bladesinger was a Fighter/Mage who wielded a Sword in his/her main hand and used his/her off hand for Spellcasting {You could probably get away with Sword and Orb.}.

CThruTheEgo
01-22-2015, 06:16 AM
So i'm still thinking about trying to build a char that 'feels' like a Bladesinger. Because i really have no idea how/if rune arms are good i'm steering away from single weapon fighting and rune arm and instead was thinking of going 14 tempest 6 eldritch knight. i was going to use harper to stack INT for know the angles and using int for hit/dam. so 2 questions really

1) is just the concept itself dumb?

For some builds, yes. For some builds, no. For your build, no.


2) more importantly is having your hit/dam built around int gimp you with regards to dex for reflex saves or STR checks or whatever?

Take the feat insightful reflexes and then you consolidate your hit, damage, and reflex save into a single stat. That means the only reason you need str or dex is for meeting stat prerequisites for feats (e.g. str 13 for power attack, dex 13 for dodge and precision, dex 21 for combat archery). Tomes count towards those stat requirements as well, so careful planning of your feat order as you level can save you even more starting build points. The fewer stats you have to focus on the more you can boost the ones you do need.

There's actually a lot of synergy in going int based for some builds. If you don't have access to a lot of the methods to boost str (e.g. barb rage, kensai power surge, divine might, running in fury of the wild for primal scream or twisting it, etc.), then the difference between maxing your str and maxing your int will not be that much and you may very well come out ahead by going int based as a result of having your damage stat the same as your know the angles stat, but you have to figure that out on a case by case basis for the particular build you are planning.

Take a look at Totally Bass Ackwards (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/454904-Totally-Bass-Ackwards-An-int-based-heavy-armored-TWF-pure-tempest-ranger). It's an int based ranged that I just posted yesterday. It's not exactly what you are looking for, but it should give you an idea of the synergy to be found by going int based.

MadCookieQueen
01-22-2015, 08:20 AM
Personally, I like Bladesingers, one of my favorite Elven prestige classes out of 3.5 (Complete Warrior for those playing the PnP book game)

However Tempest in DDO is more suited to TWF not SWF, as many of the abilities require dual wielding. So I'm not sure if Ranger would benefit this concept.

Bladesingers are INT based as a class and would lend it's style better to Wizard with the SWF feat line. As an example of a Melee Elven Wizard you can take a look at the Shadovar Infiltrator (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/452538-Shadovar-Infiltrator) to make this more geared for Bladesinger swap out TWF for SWF.

However you'll miss out on one of the finer points of Bladesinger, Bladesong. To make that work in DDO you could go CHA based SWF Bard and with the sonic procs out of SB you'll have that ability to have the blade "hum" in the air. So a CHA based Sonic Bard you can take a peek at my Drow Firestarter (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/448953-Keidara-the-Firestarter).


There are many other combinations you could pull out of DDO to make a Bladesinger, but you'll have to figure out which part of the class you really desire, the INT based abilities or the Bladesong.


Good luck and game on!

Wh070aa
01-22-2015, 09:11 AM
I would say that melee artificer is most like Bladesinger. Possibly with a bard splash (2 to 5 levels maybe?). Has best offhand casting (rune arm), and many weapon buffs, and evocation spells. Can use many arcane spell equivalents, or scroll/wand that.

That or melee wizard, with large Eldritch Knight investment. (bunch of magical strikes, and more arcane spells. Necromancy is the best school for wizards thought. Also You can't take most melee feats, because of BaB requirements.

Be warned this will be gimp.

Int to damage is not bad, just that there are way less Int boosts, than other stats. For reflex, take insightful reflexes. You get gimped strengtwise, but yea, not much you can do about that on spell casters. If you invest at least 13(- tomes) points in str, have + 6, or 8 item, tensers transformation(+4), and rage spell/pot going(+2), you still should have enough STR to make most checks. In worst case there are psionic bonuses from items, or cookies, and some items give profane bonuses. That's a lot of item slots, and rare items tho. Also divine power clickiy.

As for rune arms, they are ok. not great, but they are more melee (or repeter) damage. If your main damage is spells, you can go with orb. If your main damage is one handed(-ish) weapon, go with rune arm.

Only problem that I see is lack of defense. No evasion, and no real armor (because arcane spell failure), and low hp, (because elf caster). You probably gonna die a lot, because you are pretty princess wearing a dress(excuse me, an elf wearing a wizards robe), running at trolls with a sharp stick. But hey you are a elf sympathizer, so it should be expected.

So yea, what you want is melee artificer, with more HP. If you can get over the lack of durability, and lack of some spells (haste=armor of speed, and most attack spells are in form of a rune arm Fireball, ice ray, scorch, lightning bolt/ball) you can do this. Only spells you loose are AOE DoT's(firewall mostly, you can still scroll/wand ice storm for good effect), and DoT's. Instead you get some archery bonuses.

That said I still like being undead abomination, or a repeater user better.
Also KtA is really good damage boost for int builds.

Not sure if what you want has anything to do with ranger tho.

---------
TLDR: Being melee wizard is sub optimal, but yes you can do this.

MadCookieQueen
01-22-2015, 09:34 AM
---------
tldr: a poorly built and designed melee wizard is sub optimal, but yes you can do this.

ftfy

unbongwah
01-22-2015, 10:47 AM
Wizard/Swashbuckler using SWF
This would be my choice as well: something like bard 3-5 / wiz 15-17 with possibly a rog splash for Evasion & trap skills. Could go Pale Master, but that spreads your APs pretty thin after SB, EK, and Harper. So I'd probably rely on wands & pots for heroics, Rejuv Cocoon + Sacred Ground for epics. It's not ideal, but I kinda like the idea of Bladesinger / Shadowdancer using Shadow Manipulation with Consecration + Sacred Ground Twisted in. :cool:

Rgr / wiz would still work okay, but you see less synergies on an INT-based build, IMHO, since you're probably not invested in spell DCs as much.

dunklezhan
01-22-2015, 11:19 AM
I'm intrigued by the idea of a wiz13/bard5/rogue 2.

I've had a good deal of success (for given definition of success, which does not include EE or end game raiding) with a wiz12/fig8 THF based wraith EK, and I quite like the idea of dropping the PM stuff but throwing in evasion and some trap skills into the mix, and going bard for hjeals, buffs, songs, a few cheap bardsong CCs, swashbuckler, SWF... might be spreading the AP very very thin though, which could kill it before it starts.

Wh070aa
01-22-2015, 11:48 AM
ftfy

Yes, you can base your build off an exploit, and make it somewhat work. But you can do it on any (non-permanent archery) build, and you have to respec, and redo gear when they fix it.

Also 90% of players don't play it in a viable way. The OP will not play in a way that is viable on a wizard. (no necromancy, melee range).

Wizard 18/barb1/arti1 is fun to play tho lol. Rage mage FTW. Still if you don't play it properly, its worse than most builds out there, and the learning curve is really intense.

Grailhawk
01-22-2015, 11:53 AM
20 Bard is going to do everything you want to do in a concept called bladesinger, and will do it better than any of the Wiz X/X/X builds can.

No, Know the Angles is not gimp, and there is synergy there for a Melee wizard, however the Wizards low BAB hurts these concepts a lot do to lack requirements on melee feat.

The concept is not dumb and can be made to work though given the stat of things 20 Bard with a heavy investment in Spellsinger and Swashbuckler seams bets over Harper.

As others have said it really depends on your class and what you have available that determiner whether STR, DEX, or INT is your best choice for main stat.

Grailhawk
01-22-2015, 12:02 PM
Yes, you can base your build off an exploit, and make it somewhat work. But you can do it on any (non-permanent archery) build, and you have to respec, and redo gear when they fix it.

Also 90% of players don't play it in a viable way. The OP will not play in a way that is viable on a wizard. (no necromancy, melee range).

Wizard 18/barb1/arti1 is fun to play tho lol. Rage mage FTW. Still if you don't play it properly, its worse than most builds out there, and the learning curve is really intense.

I'm not sure I agree with you on this, though i haven't tryed it to be sure, but an Enchantment Wizard with mass hold who then melee cleaves everything down (SWF or THF) sounds like it could work if you can make the feats work, and can pull off enough defense to survive in melee. 17 Wizard/ 3 Bard if SWF seams like the best choice IMO but. Conceptual its not that far off from a Enchantment Evocation Wizard who holds then Blasts, though the Enchantment Evocation Wizard I think is easier to pull off.

Wh070aa
01-22-2015, 01:20 PM
I'm not sure I agree with you on this, though i haven't tryed it to be sure, but an Enchantment Wizard with mass hold who then melee cleaves everything down (SWF or THF) sounds like it could work if you can make the feats work, and can pull off enough defense to survive in melee. 17 Wizard/ 3 Bard if SWF seams like the best choice IMO but. Conceptual its not that far off from a Enchantment Evocation Wizard who holds then Blasts, though the Enchantment Evocation Wizard I think is easier to pull off.

The main damage comes from spells, and you don't take the melee feats. You kite through (like go taught/over the enemies, not around them death aura, wail of banshee, draconic aura(or whatever else, + usual AOE's)) the enemies, and use weapons to proc stuff. You got incorp, displacement, doge, and mobility (haste,barbarian rage, and base, jump, wings) for defense. Gotta time the monster hits, with damage ticks of aura, and calculate the lag.

MadCookieQueen
01-22-2015, 01:37 PM
Yes, you can base your build off an exploit, and make it somewhat work. But you can do it on any (non-permanent archery) build, and you have to respec, and redo gear when they fix it.

Also 90% of players don't play it in a viable way. The OP will not play in a way that is viable on a wizard. (no necromancy, melee range).

Wizard 18/barb1/arti1 is fun to play tho lol. Rage mage FTW. Still if you don't play it properly, its worse than most builds out there, and the learning curve is really intense.


You honestly think the only way to have a viable build is to use some kind of exploit? Hate to tell you but that line of thinking is wrong, you can be completely viable without them.

I honestly, don't have the ego to guess and make assumption as to what the OP will decide to play or how the OP will play any build. 100% of all players play a way that is ideal for them and their game enjoyment. There is only one right way to play and that's just to play and have fun.

Make sure you let me know how spells work out during a Rage.

Wh070aa
01-22-2015, 01:47 PM
You honestly think the only way to have a viable build is to use some kind of exploit? Hate to tell you but that line of thinking is wrong, you can be completely viable without them.

I honestly, don't have the ego to guess and make assumption as to what the OP will decide to play or how the OP will play any build. 100% of all players play a way that is ideal for them and their game enjoyment. There is only one right way to play and that's just to play and have fun.

Make sure you let me know how spells work out during a Rage.

Read the OP. "char that 'feels' like a Bladesinger." I took some assumptions from that. I define Viable as "about as strong as average build of same level". I have tried the play style with the char, and well some of the characters are not fun(as in die in 2-3 hits, or reach time you lag) with some play styles.
Sure you could have fun dying on lag spikes, but I think I am justified in thinking that is not fun.
Learn to click dismiss rage mate. It's in your feats tab.

Grailhawk
01-22-2015, 02:41 PM
The main damage comes from spells, and you don't take the melee feats. You kite through (like go taught/over the enemies, not around them death aura, wail of banshee, draconic aura(or whatever else, + usual AOE's)) the enemies, and use weapons to proc stuff. You got incorp, displacement, doge, and mobility (haste,barbarian rage, and base, jump, wings) for defense. Gotta time the monster hits, with damage ticks of aura, and calculate the lag.

Your not understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that you can take the play style you have descibed and replace the Spell damage with melee its likely a harder build to pull off (if its possible) but in theory the style could work if there is the gear and destiny to make it work.

Andoris
01-22-2015, 05:33 PM
So i'm still thinking about trying to build a char that 'feels' like a Bladesinger. Because i really have no idea how/if rune arms are good i'm steering away from single weapon fighting and rune arm and instead was thinking of going 14 tempest 6 eldritch knight. i was going to use harper to stack INT for know the angles and using int for hit/dam. so 2 questions really

1) is just the concept itself dumb?

2) more importantly is having your hit/dam built around int gimp you with regards to dex for reflex saves or STR checks or whatever?

First off, a couple of questions of my own:

What content are you planning on playing? Epics, Heroics, EEs?

Are you trying for 2nd Ed Bladesinger or 3.5?

How much effort into gear are you willing to put into the build?

Now, on to your questions:

1) The concept is good, and should be a lot of fun. No it will not be the next FotM, but it can be made to be fun and playable

2) No, Int to damage with Know the Angles is really good; reflex save can be very solid if you use Insightful Reflexes.

Andoris
01-22-2015, 05:34 PM
Int to damage is not bad, just that there are way less Int boosts, than other stats. For reflex, take insightful reflexes. You get gimped strengtwise, but yea, not much you can do about that on spell casters. If you invest at least 13(- tomes) points in str, have + 6, or 8 item, tensers transformation(+4), and rage spell/pot going(+2), you still should have enough STR to make most checks. In worst case there are psionic bonuses from items, or cookies, and some items give profane bonuses. That's a lot of item slots, and rare items tho. Also divine power clickiy.


You do realize that you can get to a 80 Int, which with KtA gives you a 52 damage mod just from your Int stat.. to reach that with Str you need to get to a 114 Str -- good luck with that. Also using Tenser's on a caster is a bad idea -- doubling your cooldowns on spells will seriously hurt a casting build.



TLDR: Being melee wizard is sub optimal, but yes you can do this

Its not sub-optimal.. it simply gives you more options for dealing with red-names; for the cost of a small amount of casting power


Yes, you can base your build off an exploit, and make it somewhat work. But you can do it on any (non-permanent archery) build, and you have to respec, and redo gear when they fix it.

Also 90% of players don't play it in a viable way. The OP will not play in a way that is viable on a wizard. (no necromancy, melee range).

Wizard 18/barb1/arti1 is fun to play tho lol. Rage mage FTW. Still if you don't play it properly, its worse than most builds out there, and the learning curve is really intense.



I have tried the play style with the char, and well some of the characters are not fun(as in die in 2-3 hits, or reach time you lag) with some play styles.
Sure you could have fun dying on lag spikes, but I think I am justified in thinking that is not fun.
Learn to click dismiss rage mate. It's in your feats tab.

You do realize they fixed the "bug" you are referring to like 9 months ago... a Melee/Caster Wizard doesn't need and "features" to be successful. I have 2 guildies running them right now, and they can handle anything the game can throw at them; while at the same time being able to hit the DC's necessary for EE MoD

Just because you can't get it to work, doesn't make it a weak playstyle. The only cost you have in doing a melee/caster hybrid with wizard is a few points of DCs (which if you are properly built is not a big deal) and PW: Kill and Meteor Swarm (which is a slightly bigger deal).

In exchange you get the ability to dps down red-names without chugging pots like its a dwarf drinking contest.

BTW -- the build your looking for is 18wiz/1 ftr/1 rog if you want trap skills or 18 wiz / 2 fighter if you don't care about the 30% xp bonus from traps (18 wiz / 2 rog is good for non-EE content); 1 Barb gets you almost nothing.

For Bladesinger I would go Sword and Orb (Cosmetic the Libram for bonus style points)

Andoris
01-22-2015, 05:35 PM
I'm not sure I agree with you on this, though i haven't tryed it to be sure, but an Enchantment Wizard with mass hold who then melee cleaves everything down (SWF or THF) sounds like it could work if you can make the feats work, and can pull off enough defense to survive in melee. 17 Wizard/ 3 Bard if SWF seams like the best choice IMO but. Conceptual its not that far off from a Enchantment Evocation Wizard who holds then Blasts, though the Enchantment Evocation Wizard I think is easier to pull off.

I wouldn't want to drop below 18 wizard for a int based caster/melee. Lich form is just too good.

jadiusmaximus
01-22-2015, 08:13 PM
First off, a couple of questions of my own:

What content are you planning on playing? Epics, Heroics, EEs? To be honest I don't know what those are...

Are you trying for 2nd Ed Bladesinger or 3.5? prob 3.5

How much effort into gear are you willing to put into the build? i'm prob too casual for this to matter

Now, on to your questions:

1) The concept is good, and should be a lot of fun. No it will not be the next FotM, but it can be made to be fun and playable

2) No, Int to damage with Know the Angles is really good; reflex save can be very solid if you use Insightful Reflexes.


Thanks all for the feedback. I was thinking ranger to stack all the spell damage on hit procs from EK to the extra hits from TWF. But after reading responses I definitely want to go as pure to concept as possible. AND like a dope i got so tunnel visioned with enhancements i forgot about feats so the int to reflex seems cool. Thanks for that. Any way i'm gonna go SWF, fighter/wiz int based and depending on enhancement points may shoot for that sonic idea but not sure if theres enough points between harper, elf, and kensai/EK. I dunno i looked at it as heavier melee with spells that just enhance the melee not so much needing huge DC's for damaging spells or whatever. Either way since it's now fighter/wiz i'm gonna stop adding to this thread for RANGERS, sorry! hah!

Andoris
01-22-2015, 09:17 PM
Thanks all for the feedback. I was thinking ranger to stack all the spell damage on hit procs from EK to the extra hits from TWF. But after reading responses I definitely want to go as pure to concept as possible. AND like a dope i got so tunnel visioned with enhancements i forgot about feats so the int to reflex seems cool. Thanks for that. Any way i'm gonna go SWF, fighter/wiz int based and depending on enhancement points may shoot for that sonic idea but not sure if theres enough points between harper, elf, and kensai/EK. I dunno i looked at it as heavier melee with spells that just enhance the melee not so much needing huge DC's for damaging spells or whatever. Either way since it's now fighter/wiz i'm gonna stop adding to this thread for RANGERS, sorry! hah!

I would recommend SWF sword and orb; you are going to need the extra effects on the orb to help your casting -- that and a sword in one hand and a book in the other just looks cool.

I'll have the wizard/fighter build in the Shadovar Inflitrator (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/452538-Shadovar-Infiltrator) thread sometime tomorrow if you are interested. Wizards are borderline "God mode" against trash and most orange named.. don't give that up. The Melee abilities are really there to help you deal with Red/Purple named mobs.

AP's are really tight, and it requires a fair amount of gear to make it good in EEs; but it is a blast to play. I'll have something up tomorrow.

jadiusmaximus
01-22-2015, 10:35 PM
I would recommend SWF sword and orb; you are going to need the extra effects on the orb to help your casting -- that and a sword in one hand and a book in the other just looks cool.

I'll have the wizard/fighter build in the Shadovar Inflitrator (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/452538-Shadovar-Infiltrator) thread sometime tomorrow if you are interested. Wizards are borderline "God mode" against trash and most orange named.. don't give that up. The Melee abilities are really there to help you deal with Red/Purple named mobs.

AP's are really tight, and it requires a fair amount of gear to make it good in EEs; but it is a blast to play. I'll have something up tomorrow.

cool thanks!