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charles13f
01-15-2015, 09:22 AM
Ok, I just started an account for my son, and figured that for him the best way to learn ddo was soloing. I'm not talking about elite everything just norm/hard so he can get his bearings. With that in mind I made him a Human Wiz, 16 con/18 Int (rest are 8's). with the lev 1 summon and the PM skellies he gets through most stuff by hiding, cant get much easier than that. took toughness, augment summon, and spell pen at first lev then maximize at 3 and empower at 5 (where I'm going to loosen the reigns on him). any thoughts?

Ancient
01-15-2015, 10:02 AM
Ok, I just started an account for my son, and figured that for him the best way to learn ddo was soloing. I'm not talking about elite everything just norm/hard so he can get his bearings. With that in mind I made him a Human Wiz, 16 con/18 Int (rest are 8's). with the lev 1 summon and the PM skellies he gets through most stuff by hiding, cant get much easier than that. took toughness, augment summon, and spell pen at first lev then maximize at 3 and empower at 5 (where I'm going to loosen the reigns on him). any thoughts?
There are many opinions on this... Here is mine:

You need focus. How do you plan to specialize in killing: Instakill, Direct damage or Weapon damage? Although all 3 are always options, it is best to pick one to focus the build on.

* Instakill is the high society of wizard builds, very effective, very hard to get into and do right. I think it is a very poor choice for a first life new player.
* Melee is not the strongest choice for a wizard, there are far far better classes to build a meele build on top of.
* Direct damage is viable, but at low levels a sorc is far more effective.
* Summoning isn't a viable end game strategy, but at low levels the level 1 and 3 robot barbarians along with the summon spell and skelly can tear up even elite quests (I haven't tested post champions).

My preference is towards direct damage. If that is where you go, then spell pen was possibly a miss-step. Direct damage spells don't typically have a spell pen check. The NovaShiradi build in my sig talks through a palemaster/archmage build that is not complex to play although I'm focused on epic levels, not a step by step guide for heroic leveling.

Gear wise, a good caster weapon and HP gear helps a ton. If you can craft, then getting him outfitted with heavy armor and arcane spell failure reduction (Humans don't get the 15 from enhancements, so you would have to commit to a crafted greater twilight armor, but the PRR/MRR is still worth it).

All of that said, depending on the age of your child, you might consider simply giving a sorc with repair, magic missile, burning hands SLA and acid splash SLA (Max/Empower turned on for the SLAs). Plays like a video game and is still effective :) Spend the other lvl 1 spells on utility (Exp retreat/Jump/Shield).

unbongwah
01-15-2015, 10:11 AM
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/405017-Pale-Master-Guide
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422622-Pale-Trapper-for-new-players-(Human-18-2-Wizard-Rogue)

Should cover everything the first-time Pale Master needs to know.

Ancient
01-15-2015, 10:36 AM
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/405017-Pale-Master-Guide
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422622-Pale-Trapper-for-new-players-(Human-18-2-Wizard-Rogue)

Should cover everything the first-time Pale Master needs to know.

As long as the world of pale master builds does not go beyond instakill builds yes... For instakill builds, those are pretty much THE resources. I just wish they weren't so presumptuous to assume there are no other ways to build a palemaster build.

Bluegirl_Two
01-15-2015, 11:05 AM
Ok, I just started an account for my son, and figured that for him the best way to learn ddo was soloing. I'm not talking about elite everything just norm/hard so he can get his bearings. With that in mind I made him a Human Wiz, 16 con/18 Int (rest are 8's). with the lev 1 summon and the PM skellies he gets through most stuff by hiding, cant get much easier than that. took toughness, augment summon, and spell pen at first lev then maximize at 3 and empower at 5 (where I'm going to loosen the reigns on him). any thoughts?

I don't know your son or his age or anything about his interests in games, so if what I have to say doesn't fit then ignore it. But, to me the "gets through most stuff by hiding" is bad, very bad. He isn't really engaged in the game, he is effectively piking while letting others (in this case his summoned creatures) do all the work, he isn't really learning the game or the character class. And, when he does end up grouping he'll also pike -- because that is what he learned to do.

When a character has to hide it means that the character isn't able to hold its own with the mobs. The character is weak, requires constant care, and -- in the case of casters -- gets into no-win situations when the spell points run out. To me that is a recipe for disaster, not one for learning the game and enjoying it.

I would have thought it better to start him with something that is resilient and forgiving -- something that is unlikely to get into difficulty and able to be fairly self-sustaining without over-reliance on spell points. IMO bard or paladin would have been better first characters -- particularly if your intent is to turn him loose to solo. I would have saved resource intensive builds for when he had a reasonable knowledge of the game. And, make no mistake, wizards are resource hogs at early levels because they have too few spell points and they don't have spell point regenerating tools of any meaningful type. That means mnemonic potions and that means platinum or Turbine Points. And that means that they are resource hogs.

A rogue/bard multiclass is perhaps the most useful first character. It is highly resilient, self heals and buffs, deals with traps and locks, has high dodge and evasion, has inherent crowd control, with Swashbuckler has one of the highest melee damage paths, has abundant skills. All told a much better first build than Pale Master.

Of course, your son might be one of those people that just naturally gravitates towards spell casters and in that case Pale Master will suit him. But, it isn't the path I would have recommended.

Enoach
01-15-2015, 11:28 AM
I don't know your son or his age or anything about his interests in games, so if what I have to say doesn't fit then ignore it. But, to me the "gets through most stuff by hiding" is bad, very bad. He isn't really engaged in the game, he is effectively piking while letting others (in this case his summoned creatures) do all the work, he isn't really learning the game or the character class. And, when he does end up grouping he'll also pike -- because that is what he learned to do.

When a character has to hide it means that the character isn't able to hold its own with the mobs. The character is weak, requires constant care, and -- in the case of casters -- gets into no-win situations when the spell points run out. To me that is a recipe for disaster, not one for learning the game and enjoying it.

I would have thought it better to start him with something that is resilient and forgiving -- something that is unlikely to get into difficulty and able to be fairly self-sustaining without over-reliance on spell points. IMO bard or paladin would have been better first characters -- particularly if your intent is to turn him loose to solo. I would have saved resource intensive builds for when he had a reasonable knowledge of the game. And, make no mistake, wizards are resource hogs at early levels because they have too few spell points and they don't have spell point regenerating tools of any meaningful type. That means mnemonic potions and that means platinum or Turbine Points. And that means that they are resource hogs.

A rogue/bard multiclass is perhaps the most useful first character. It is highly resilient, self heals and buffs, deals with traps and locks, has high dodge and evasion, has inherent crowd control, with Swashbuckler has one of the highest melee damage paths, has abundant skills. All told a much better first build than Pale Master.

Of course, your son might be one of those people that just naturally gravitates towards spell casters and in that case Pale Master will suit him. But, it isn't the path I would have recommended.

I will have to disagree on the hiding meaning he is not engaged. There are many effective ways to play a Wizard at low levels:


Direct Spell Damage - It is Spell Point intense so requires careful use of AoE and pulling the right sized groups to maximize the damage output by reducing the incoming damage
Enchanter/Summoner - Here the Wizard depends on using others to accomplish the task. Be it through minions they bring or minions they create
Melee Focus - Use of the Eldritch Knight and Melee - usually best with a multi-class melee
Insta-Kill - the point and kill - works great until countered with something protected (Deathward/Boss)


Based on your son's play style I would actually recommend the Arcane Trickster. Pretty much same stats you started with, maybe lower con 2 and raise Dex. Take the First Level as Rogue (for the bonus stats) for wizard feats I would wait on Spell Penetration tell Level 10 plus as level and gear and the lack of creatures with spell resistance makes this less useful until then. I would go with a Spell Focus feat such as Enchantment.

The Rogue levels will enhance the Sneak ability as well as help with locked or trapped areas opening up more of the dungeon for him to explore. The Wizard spells would then focus on hypnotism (so he can learn to bypass fights) and charms (so he can use the dungeon against itself) and as he advances holds so his minions can do more damage.

I don't have the Link to this anymore but Mr. Cow use to have the Shadow Wizard build as well as links to videos of him sneaking through dungeons. Even if the dungeons have changed much of his advice is still good today.

But I would recommend Wand Enhancements and a supply of wands to supplement his damage while at low levels. This way his SP can be used for enchantments and he will still have some firepower.

Bluegirl_Two
01-15-2015, 01:43 PM
I will have to disagree on the hiding meaning he is not engaged.

I started my observation by saying that I don't know the boy so I have no real idea of whether he is engaged or not. But I will note that "hide and watch" is not one of the methods you mention.



Direct Spell Damage - It is Spell Point intense so requires careful use of AoE and pulling the right sized groups to maximize the damage output by reducing the incoming damage
Enchanter/Summoner - Here the Wizard depends on using others to accomplish the task. Be it through minions they bring or minions they create
Melee Focus - Use of the Eldritch Knight and Melee - usually best with a multi-class melee
Insta-Kill - the point and kill - works great until countered with something protected (Deathward/Boss)


I don't know if you remember when we had a large number of Korean players. It was a long time back and level cap was much lower. There were no epic levels. It was a much different game. The two things I noticed about many of the Korean players was that they liked to play wizards and they liked to zerg. If I were to make a third observation it would be that they didn't want any deaths.

That made it hard to group with them and it was always something of a privilege to be allowed to run with them. One that didn't get extended too often if you couldn't keep up or if you died frequently.

Their play style was Enchanter/Summoner with the emphasis on enchanter. And the one thing they never did was hide.

Now, I think that this hiding play style has become popular for some people and that they think it is a good thing. I get this idea from reading the forums and seeing the number of complaints about hirelings and how stupid they are. At the bottom of it all is this thought, I use to be able to let hirelings do all my work for me and now I can't complete quests because they are broken. What players are really saying is, "I need a group so I can pike and they have to do all the work."

I think that is a bad play style. It is a bad habit to get into when soloing because when you actually make the move to grouping with real people you don't know what to do. You end up piking and taking up a slot that would have gone to a productive player. IMO the whole hide and watch game style does not develop knowledge or skill. It becomes a learned behavior that has to be unlearned in order to be a useful group member.

If voyeurism is being engaged in an activity then by all means hide and watch. I think it is a recipe for developing bad habits, becoming a bad player and, in the end, losing interest in the game.

Enoach
01-15-2015, 01:52 PM
I started my observation by saying that I don't know the boy so I have no real idea of whether he is engaged or not. But I will note that "hide and watch" is not one of the methods you mention.



I don't know if you remember when we had a large number of Korean players. It was a long time back and level cap was much lower. There were no epic levels. It was a much different game. The two things I noticed about many of the Korean players was that they liked to play wizards and they liked to zerg. If I were to make a third observation it would be that they didn't want any deaths.

That made it hard to group with them and it was always something of a privilege to be allowed to run with them. One that didn't get extended too often if you couldn't keep up or if you died frequently.

Their play style was Enchanter/Summoner with the emphasis on enchanter. And the one thing they never did was hide.

Now, I think that this hiding play style has become popular for some people and that they think it is a good thing. I get this idea from reading the forums and seeing the number of complaints about hirelings and how stupid they are. At the bottom of it all is this thought, I use to be able to let hirelings do all my work for me and now I can't complete quests because they are broken. What players are really saying is, "I need a group so I can pike and they have to do all the work."

I think that is a bad play style. It is a bad habit to get into when soloing because when you actually make the move to grouping with real people you don't know what to do. You end up piking and taking up a slot that would have gone to a productive player. IMO the whole hide and watch game style does not develop knowledge or skill. It becomes a learned behavior that has to be unlearned in order to be a useful group member.

If voyeurism is being engaged in an activity then by all means hide and watch. I think it is a recipe for developing bad habits, becoming a bad player and, in the end, losing interest in the game.

We will then just have to disagree. I myself was a fan of Mr. Cow's Shadow Wizard (Which was well before the epics we have today) and his style of misdirection and completion of the quest. Based on the comments of the OP I actually feel his son would enjoy that style more than the blow it up, blow it up style. This would allow him access to the whole dungeon through traps/secrets and locks and give him the ability to use the mobs and his summons to handle the damage output and reduce his personal damage input.

I honestly don't remember the Korean Zerger's as you mentioned. But I imagine it was the Server and my evening Pacific play time that most likely was the reason we never crossed. I spent more time with the Aussy's

janave
01-15-2015, 01:54 PM
Enchant/Evocation for leveling is super easy,
from about lvl14-16 it is a lot more effective to play as an istakiller tho.

Arch-mage for the magic/chain missile SLA-s, put EMP/MAX/Quicken on them. Saves a ton of mana, and lets you pewpew almost endlessly.

For solo play enchant and stealth thru invis is super easy/fun, just let your minions do the work. The only thing your son will have to learn is what are the mob immunities, and what monster archetypes have weak saves vs reflex/will/fort based spells.

For a learning character a Wizard could be kind of a deep water, an elemental savant esp warforged is much more forgiving. Or a Druid, or an FvS (if it has to be a caster)

Enoach
01-15-2015, 04:22 PM
Found Mr. Cow's Build post - Keep in mind the Enhancements have changed since this time. But there are links to the videos he made showing this playstyle in action

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/127707-Shadow-Mage-A-Build-A-Philosophy

burningwind
01-15-2015, 11:03 PM
if you are new do not play dc caster. they are not design for you.. unlike traditional dnd pnp where spell are really powerful, here spell aren't that powerful, and the reason is listed below
1) monster have insane amount of hp, in dnd you do not find stuff with million of health, i mean even dragons shouldn't have over 1k health.. but in ddo almost everything have this much health... while your spell damage remain relative close to rule set, so a deadly fire ball in pnp would be a joke here..
2)stats only do so much.. most of your power come from equipment and character build. and if you are dc caster you can almost ignore the character build part, since all dc caster use similar build with pure or close to pure build.
3)due to equipment been so powerful.. monster have insane amount of save to give you a reason to grind all those uber gear and past live..
4)past life.. if you don't have enough past life likely your spell won't even penetrate enemy sr.. sr is very very big issue for first life.. (been elf help)
5)if you are going to use some build on the forum, be sure you have the required tome, pl and gear for it.. else it wouldn't work. for some build it is impossible without these.. especially the tome part which enable you to acquire certain otherwise impossible feat

p.s. do not god wizard on first life unless you don't intend on doing epic.... to start a new account i would start with monk, druid, cleric, fvs or wf artificer(only if you have wf).. and if you must go wizard try a ek build.. may not be the best but with all the buff it is more viable then dc caster

Bluegirl_Two
01-15-2015, 11:17 PM
I myself was a fan of Mr. Cow's Shadow Wizard (Which was well before the epics we have today) and his style of misdirection and completion of the quest. Based on the comments of the OP I actually feel his son would enjoy that style more than the blow it up, blow it up style.

What in the OP's comments suggests anything at all about his son's likes or dislikes? There is nothing there about "my son likes this (or that) type of gaming." What is there is a parent making decisions and giving their son a build type.

And, note that the comment isn't about misdirection, sneaking, etc. The comment is "he gets through most stuff by hiding." Now, maybe OP meant "by sneaking" but that's not what was said. Combining the idea of summoning with the idea of hiding just suggests something a bit different than Mr. Cow's video.

Note also that the stealth approach to quests is extremely difficult beyond heroic content even for a player who is familiar with the quests. It also is nowhere near as easy as the video makes it seem. Mr. Cow had a lot of experience.

Now, it is probably irrelevant at this point since the decision seems to have been made already by OP about what type of character to set their son up with. But, I remain doubtful that it was the best choice and expect it to be more likely to lead to significant failure than to an understanding of the game and long-term involvement.

Bluegirl_Two
01-15-2015, 11:37 PM
if you are new do not play dc caster.

Here's the thing -- a thing that I think most people miss -- a new player does not have the understanding of the game that an established player has. This post by burningwind points out some of the things that experienced players just take for granted when they give answers to new players. It is a very cogent argument for why a new player should not run a DC caster. Yes, <insert some forum name here> did/does great things with DC casters. Now, look at the experience, gear, past lives, guild support, and so on that the player has available.

New players don't have that. And, new players who are going to be intentionally set loose to solo content really don't have that.

Now take a non-standard approach to quest completion and lay that over the top of no knowledge of game mechanics, no insight into quest layout, no recognition of the values of optional v required objectives and no access to resources to improve the chances of success. Once you've done that figure in the impact of putting that non-standard approach into a group.

I happen to have a son of my own. He's nearing 18 years old. He's been playing DDO for a few years now. Even though I expect him to solo or duo with me when he games I find that he groups quite often. He isn't shy at all about hitting up LFMs and he adjusted his game settings so that every time he starts a quest it puts up an autofill LFM.

Imagine if he had learned to quest by summoning things and then hiding until the fight was over. How would that go over in a group that is going to zerg all the objectives. Even flower sniffing groups barely slow down these days.

What I can do, what you others can do, what Mr. Cow did, what <insert some forum name here> might do -- those are all irrelevant. Without the resources and experience it will all fall apart.

Ancient
01-15-2015, 11:57 PM
p.s. do not god wizard on first life unless you don't intend on doing epic....
Wizards can do just fine first life as direct damage then as shiradi. The direct damage spells/SLAs are enough to get to epics. My main worked his way up, and I've documented the build(s) through my NovaSoul series of builds. I just updated it with the U24 changes in my sig.

gwonbush
01-16-2015, 12:41 AM
You can even be a first life DC caster as long as you avoid quests where mobs have high SR. Assuming equal gear and tomes, a first life is only 2 DC behind the very best a completionist can get (2 int from completionist, 1 dc from Wiz active past life).

Kasiddy
01-16-2015, 12:51 AM
Ok, I just started an account for my son, and figured that for him the best way to learn ddo was soloing. I'm not talking about elite everything just norm/hard so he can get his bearings. With that in mind I made him a Human Wiz, 16 con/18 Int (rest are 8's). with the lev 1 summon and the PM skellies he gets through most stuff by hiding, cant get much easier than that. took toughness, augment summon, and spell pen at first lev then maximize at 3 and empower at 5 (where I'm going to loosen the reigns on him). any thoughts?

I get the impression from your post that he could be described as a bit youngish.
In that case I would really make sure he's having fun more than I would worry about his end-game viability.
I probably would have taken Extend instead of Toughness or Spell Pen, then maybe swapped out Extend for Spell Pen later, just for the timer on lowbie buffs. A certain lack of focus, or lack of DC-increasing gear, isn't going to matter much if he's running around on normal or even heroic hard.
And the ugly awful truth is that it still won't matter much in many epic quests if played on normal if he ever gets the character that high.
Getting to 20 just isn't a problem any more, and if he wants this character to be truly end-game viable when he gets to that point, TR and build it up again "right." For a first character just be sure he's having fun. I doubt that the hiding will last long. (My 2 cp.)

There seem to be three ways to play a lowbie wizzy:
1. Try to kill everything with spells and usually run out of SP, then chug sp pots.
2. Charm/CC your way through/around encounters with limited use of damage spells when necessary.
3. Self-buff and wave a greatsword around until you get wall of fire.

I've played both 2 and 3. Option 1 is a terrible habit to get into.
Option 2 seems the better choice for a first newbie wizzy, and it seems like that's what he's doing.
Do not stock him up on SP pots. Eternal wands for the win!
Learning to really extend that blue bar will be good in the long run.
Set up multiple copies of primary damage spells on his hotbars, but have them with different metamagics.
Show him how to round up a pack of kobolds and hit them with both maximized and empower whatever.
Then finish off anything still standing with the unenhanced version. Or whack them with a stick.

Bluegirl_Two
01-16-2015, 01:19 AM
You can even be a first life DC caster as long as you avoid quests where mobs have high SR. Assuming equal gear and tomes, a first life is only 2 DC behind the very best a completionist can get (2 int from completionist, 1 dc from Wiz active past life).

Depends on the type of spell. Cleric past life gives +1 to the DC of conjuration spells and stacks 3 times. Sorcerer gives +1 to evocation spells and likewise stacks 3 times. Combine that with the wizard active past life and it is +4 to the DC of either of these spell types. Note that most/all direct damage spells are evocation. That means the net difference between a first life and a completionist can be +5 even if everything else were equal.

But, and this is my earlier point, everything won't be equal. The completionist will have better gear. Unless the first life character is being funded externally (mommy or daddy is running DDO and spending all their plat reserves on the child) the gear that the first life character is going to have will be behind the completionist. Doesn't mean the first lifer can't catch up, just means it will not be at the same level until it does.

And, all that time spent adventuring with the inferior gear and without the tomes (unless mommy and daddy buy those for the child as well) adds up to make a huge difference in effectiveness.

Ancient
01-16-2015, 09:07 AM
There seem to be three ways to play a lowbie wizzy:
1. Try to kill everything with spells and usually run out of SP, then chug sp pots.
2. Charm/CC your way through/around encounters with limited use of damage spells when necessary.
3. Self-buff and wave a greatsword around until you get wall of fire.

I've played both 2 and 3. Option 1 is a terrible habit to get into.

Not only did you miss an option (hirelings), you are wrong on option 1.

If you pick the right spells and gear you can blast everything with spells all the way up. Chances are that your addiction is to meta-magics, at low levels you need to spam low cost spells without metamagics.

In my sig, there is a link to a post on sorcerer playstyle videos.
1.) I have videos (pre-champions) of the level 1 and level 3 barbarian hires soloing quests on elite with heal support.
2.) I have videos of sorcerers running quests on elite with nothing but veteran ship gear. An equipped wizard can do the same thing.

If the poster's kid is going to run on normal then Frenzy can easily get them to fireball if not firewall casting nothing but heal support (repair) from the wizard. Any extra offense is bonus.

Enoach
01-16-2015, 09:14 AM
I think some have forgotten a very important point the OP mentioned and are overthinking it.

His son will be running solo on Normal/Hard Heroic. Wizard DC caster is a fine first character when the plans are solo and running on a lower than elite difficulty. As a DC caster he will not need past lives or be concerned about what is best in Epic content. So using a sneak/hide and enchantment spells to get through a dungeon will be very effective even on a first life character.

Kasiddy
01-16-2015, 10:56 PM
Not only did you miss an option (hirelings), you are wrong on option 1.

In my thinking, hirelings are just a variation on option 2, which mostly seems to be happening already.
In regard to option 1, that's often how I see it played when lowbie questing on my TR -- full-out spell spamming without regard to cost or effectiveness.
Hence the suggestion to set up spells both with and without metamagics and show the kid when best to use them or not in order to conserve SP, and to not overlook nice lowbie gear like the eternal wands.
Sorry if that wasn't clear.

DirkTyrant
03-05-2015, 01:02 PM
oh, com'on guys... give the kid a break. ASSUME he WON'T have great gear, or money, or skill. He LIKES to hide.

My suggestion:
1) explain to him what happens if he dies.... and maybe after he has actually died a few times and he realizes that it wasn't so disastrous... he won't FEAR it so much.
2) Try to find him an invisability clickie - to HELP with his hiding. Or get the spell. He'll soon learn that just opening a door will take him OUT of invis, but it helps for a bit.
3) put Enhancement points in the Harper Tree... and further bump up the stats of his Skelly.
4) take Buff spells he can cast on his skelly
5) have him turn on his evil aura so he can "heal" his skelly (between combats of course)

As long as he learns to ENJOY the game.... he will play long enough to get better... and eventually he will come out of hiding... and maybe be able to take advantage of some of the advice given above this post.

psykopeta
03-05-2015, 01:41 PM
Ok, I just started an account for my son, and figured that for him the best way to learn ddo was soloing. I'm not talking about elite everything just norm/hard so he can get his bearings. With that in mind I made him a Human Wiz, 16 con/18 Int (rest are 8's). with the lev 1 summon and the PM skellies he gets through most stuff by hiding, cant get much easier than that. took toughness, augment summon, and spell pen at first lev then maximize at 3 and empower at 5 (where I'm going to loosen the reigns on him). any thoughts?

since u said norm and hard, i would try getting evocation specialized cause his dc should be enough, also as way to heal i would go undead with aura cause the recovering should be enough, and to reduce damage, i would get some armor, like light or even medium because the damage mitigation should be enough

also will choose the spells for him and have 2 separated bars: the one with metas off (thats the one he should be using always) and one with all metas on (empower + maximize, because if he gets surrounded by mobs that should be enough to kill everything) also as skill points i would go for concentration, heal and spellcraft

if you think it's ok, try getting some fighter levels so he can swing a great weapon like big boys do

and i would teach him the 1st and only rule in ddo:

don't aggro more than you can handle

xDDDD

this way i think he should be able to stay easily alive and lose his fear to death, because ddo is a game and there's nothing bad about dying, his toon can come back to life