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Alizar
01-13-2015, 01:23 PM
I can't find much of a discussion on ranger forum about tempest enhancements like Dance of Death. What is the general consensus on these? Powerful enough? I recently TR'd my pally to include 5 lvl of ranger to try these out. I like the idea of having dps abilities not limited by turn undead.

kmankowski
01-13-2015, 01:38 PM
I really like Dance of Death. Especially at level 12 my TWF ranger felt like a god. I tore through Hiding In Plain Sight faster than I ever have. The cool down is short enough to be able to use it for almost every group of mobs. Lots of fun seeing em all go down at once. The character is 25 now and still uses it every time it is off cool down. Most fun I've had with a TWF class, and I've played a couple rogue lives and a monk life.

Alizar
01-13-2015, 01:53 PM
What about the range to hit mobs? It's not very good if your swinging but hitting only 1 most of the time.

What about a thousand cuts and gathering storm?

unbongwah
01-13-2015, 02:00 PM
Growing Storm and Dance of Death are must-haves, IMHO. Elaborate Parry sucks, but it's a pre-req for Evasive Dance if you want that; note that if you went rgr 5 / pal 15, you won't have Evasion anyway, so you can skip it. I usually skip Thousand Cuts too; 6 secs every 2 mins. is just too short to be a meaningful DPS boost.

Grailhawk
01-13-2015, 02:00 PM
Dance of Death is Good as is The Growing Storm, Evasive Dance is just barely worth the price of itself and Elaborate Parry which is bad because of dodge cap. A Thousand Cuts is not worth the AP the cooldown is too long, and the ability is is a joke compared to the similar T5 in Ninja.

Whirlwind needs to be bumped to at least 10% DS also but its a core not a capstone, and they should add a T5 to give full STR damage to offhand attacks. All round Tempest is a B+, or A Tree there are better but not that many. Sorry kind of segued into a Tree critic and not just a T4/T5.

JOTMON
01-13-2015, 02:19 PM
I can't find much of a discussion on ranger forum about tempest enhancements like Dance of Death. What is the general consensus on these? Powerful enough? I recently TR'd my pally to include 5 lvl of ranger to try these out. I like the idea of having dps abilities not limited by turn undead.

Relatively speaking..They suck.
Its a bad sign when the Whirling Dervish build is a fighter not a ranger..
http://ddowiki.com/page/Whirling_Dervish_32_Point_Version
Rangers are are pretty much limited to splashes for some useful low level bonuses.. or Arcane Archers..
All in all the Tempest Tree is pretty underwhelming. A 2wf version of the Cetus build fighter.. Centered Kensai monk splash would be a better way to go.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422550-U19-Fighter-Build-Cetus


Tempest Tree top line..
T5: Evasive Dance: Improves your Evasion ability so on a failed Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you only take 85/70/50% damage. Note: Does not stack with improved evasion. Requirement:Elaborate parry
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 30 Requires: Evasion, Elaborate Parry

~Costs you 6AP with pre-reqs and ranked up.
~Compare to.. 9Monk/10Rogue gives Improved evasion..
When you attempt a Reflex save against an effect that normally does half damage when saved against, you suffer no damage
if you successfully save and half damage even if you fail.



T5: A Thousand Cuts: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage. You gain +30/+60/+90 melee Doublestrike chance for 6 seconds. (Cooldown: 2 minutes) Bug: Works with any fighting style.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 40 Requires: Growing Storm

~you only get this for 6 seconds with a 2 minute cooldown. Requires 6AP investment to rank up with pre-req.
~Comapre to....
Paladins KOTC Avenging Cleave: "Make a sweeping weapon attack against all nearby enemies for +1/+3/+5[W] damage. Damaged enemies gains one stack of Vulnerability.
Shares its cooldown with the Great Cleave feat. Cooldown: 5 seconds




Dance of Death: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage. Your basic attacks when dual wielding strike 2/3/4 targets per swing instead of one for 10 seconds. (Cooldown: 15 seconds) Bug: Works with any fighting style.

~the only useful thing here.. assuming you are surrounded by a few of trash mobs within striking distance. but still only for 10 seconds out of every 15 seconds)..
another button masher..


An arcane archer Ranger is much more effective..
take a look around.. see may Tempest Rangers... I don't.... even mine is still a packmule
Which is too bad... my first toon life when I started the game was a Tempest Ranger and I always wanted to play one in endgame..
unfortunately it just isn't up to par,.

Alizar
01-13-2015, 02:20 PM
Thanks for the replies. Sounds interesting and fun! Can you answer on range?

Grailhawk
01-13-2015, 02:36 PM
Relatively speaking..They suck.
Its a bad sign when the Whirling Dervish build is a fighter not a ranger..
http://ddowiki.com/page/Whirling_Dervish_32_Point_Version
Rangers are are pretty much limited to splashes for some useful low level bonuses.. or Arcane Archers..
All in all the Tempest Tree is pretty underwhelming. A 2wf version of the Cetus build fighter.. Centered Kensai monk splash would be a better way to go.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422550-U19-Fighter-Build-Cetus


Tempest Tree top line..
T5: Evasive Dance: Improves your Evasion ability so on a failed Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you only take 85/70/50% damage. Note: Does not stack with improved evasion. Requirement:Elaborate parry
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 30 Requires: Evasion, Elaborate Parry

~Costs you 6AP with pre-reqs and ranked up.
~Compare to.. 9Monk/10Rogue gives Improved evasion..
When you attempt a Reflex save against an effect that normally does half damage when saved against, you suffer no damage
if you successfully save and half damage even if you fail.



T5: A Thousand Cuts: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage. You gain +30/+60/+90 melee Doublestrike chance for 6 seconds. (Cooldown: 2 minutes) Bug: Works with any fighting style.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 40 Requires: Growing Storm

~you only get this for 6 seconds with a 2 minute cooldown. Requires 6AP investment to rank up with pre-req.
~Comapre to....
Paladins KOTC Avenging Cleave: "Make a sweeping weapon attack against all nearby enemies for +1/+3/+5[W] damage. Damaged enemies gains one stack of Vulnerability.
Shares its cooldown with the Great Cleave feat. Cooldown: 5 seconds




Dance of Death: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage. Your basic attacks when dual wielding strike 2/3/4 targets per swing instead of one for 10 seconds. (Cooldown: 15 seconds) Bug: Works with any fighting style.

~the only useful thing here.. assuming you are surrounded by a few of trash mobs within striking distance. but still only for 10 seconds out of every 15 seconds)..
another button masher..


An arcane archer Ranger is much more effective..
take a look around.. see may Tempest Rangers... I don't.... even mine is still a packmule
Which is too bad... my first toon life when I started the game was a Tempest Ranger and I always wanted to play one in endgame..
unfortunately it just isn't up to par,.

Your critic on the Tree is out and out wrong, there's a reason why 15 Paladin/5 Ranger is a build.

Your critic on the class is out of date, Ranger 20 > Fighter 20 Rangers attack much faster then Fighter now and get more from melee power because of it (1.8*1.5 = 2.7, 2.0*1.5=3.0 that extra .30 damage adjustment makes up for the old school fighter hits harder). Ranger are however behind Paladins, and Bards now and unlike in the old days when the comparison was with Fighters Rangers don't have better survival and healing then Paladins and Bards.

unbongwah
01-13-2015, 02:42 PM
Its a bad sign when the Whirling Dervish build is a fighter not a ranger..
http://ddowiki.com/page/Whirling_Dervish_32_Point_Version
That build is ancient - pre-U19, at least, based on the enhancements - and shouldn't be used anymore.

A 2wf version of the Cetus build fighter.. Centered Kensai monk splash would be a better way to go.
If we're chasing after FotM builds, a pure pally or rgr 5 / pal 15 has better melee DPS than Cetus, thanks to the improvements to Holy Sword; while the Armor Up changes mean Evasion is no longer the must-have it once was. I know some folks who have abandoned Evasion for Shadow Guardian armor: meaningful DR plus a big boost to PRR/MRR is more useful than Evasion & high Dodge, in their view.

Alizar
01-13-2015, 03:10 PM
Thanks guys for setting that straight.

How reliable is holy retribution? I can't see it being very effective with the limit of 1000 hp and only 1 target. Tied to turns. Even the DC seems like it would fail often.

unbongwah
01-13-2015, 03:53 PM
I don't see what the point of Holy Retribution is. Consume a TU (which don't regen until you can take Endless Turning from Div Crusader) for a chance to instakill a target (but only if it's below 1,000 HPs) and regain a Smite (which regen naturally already)? Perhaps it has some merit in heroic content; but my epic first-life SWF BF pally with an un-upgraded Mornh is doing 100s of pts of dmg per swing already (crits are sometimes over 1,000 pts) and I'm nowhere near done gearing him. And that's in a "gimp" ED like US running with "just" a Knights Loyalty set; I'm looking forward to seeing what he can do in LD with a fully charged Blitz and (hopefully) a flawless black dragonscale docent.

cru121
01-13-2015, 03:59 PM
I don't see what the point of Holy Retribution is.
try it out

Alizar
01-13-2015, 04:21 PM
I don't see what the point of Holy Retribution is. Consume a TU (which don't regen until you can take Endless Turning from Div Crusader) for a chance to instakill a target (but only if it's below 1,000 HPs) and regain a Smite (which regen naturally already)? Perhaps it has some merit in heroic content; but my epic first-life SWF BF pally with an un-upgraded Mornh is doing 100s of pts of dmg per swing already (crits are sometimes over 1,000 pts) and I'm nowhere near done gearing him. And that's in a "gimp" ED like US running with "just" a Knights Loyalty set; I'm looking forward to seeing what he can do in LD with a fully charged Blitz and (hopefully) a flawless black dragonscale docent.

I have a capped pure human bard using TF hand axe running LD and loving it! If you don't like HR then that's reason enough for me to take a pass on it.

JOTMON
01-13-2015, 05:38 PM
Your critic on the Tree is out and out wrong, there's a reason why 15 Paladin/5 Ranger is a build.

Your critic on the class is out of date, Ranger 20 > Fighter 20 Rangers attack much faster then Fighter now and get more from melee power because of it (1.8*1.5 = 2.7, 2.0*1.5=3.0 that extra .30 damage adjustment makes up for the old school fighter hits harder). Ranger are however behind Paladins, and Bards now and unlike in the old days when the comparison was with Fighters Rangers don't have better survival and healing then Paladins and Bards.


Tempest ranger is more oriented to the dex to damage on finessable weapons, but they don't have the boosts that rogues get for their dex to damage lines.
I still see fighters in groups, the only rangers are Arcane archers. or splashed ranger to take advantage of arcane archer enhancements.
I have yet to see anyone playing a tempest ranger except perhaps someone wanting to build a Drizz't wannabe build for nostalgia..

anyone out there actually playing a 2wf tempest ranger in endgame viable content? and if you are out there are you happy with tempest compared to other enhancement lines..
..Mine never made it past the training dummy..

Grailhawk
01-13-2015, 06:08 PM
Tempest ranger is more oriented to the dex to damage on finessable weapons, but they don't have the boosts that rogues get for their dex to damage lines.
I still see fighters in groups, the only rangers are Arcane archers. or splashed ranger to take advantage of arcane archer enhancements.
I have yet to see anyone playing a tempest ranger except perhaps someone wanting to build a Drizz't wannabe build for nostalgia..

anyone out there actually playing a 2wf tempest ranger in endgame viable content? and if you are out there are you happy with tempest compared to other enhancement lines..
..Mine never made it past the training dummy..

I play one and know other rangers who play them in end game and they do alright. Paladins and Bards out class them there is no getting around that and anyone looking for a strong Self-sufficient melee looks at Rangers as the distant third choice, It takes a lot of work to get a Ranger to compete with a Paladin or a Bard.

Ranged is the a current FotM and rangers are the perceived default ranged class by many players. Those two things, out classed by Bard and Paladin pulse perception, lead to not many Tempest out there.

Finally a good Tempest is not Dex based (that's another perception of the class that hurts it) STR is the better stat to focus on for melee damage, and argument can be made for Int even and Int would be a better choice then Dex.

As for builds Google noyellowbar, that is a good tempest ranger build not sure, if its currently active or not, but its also not the top end DPS ranger build Pure ranger does more damage, do to a fantastic capstone.

One final thing TWF being inferior to THF or SWF is a myth on a spreadsheet TWF wins every time and this holds true against a bag of hit points like the kobold in the test dojo. Where THF and SWF out class TWF is that they do better AOE damage which is very important these days this is why 15/5 Paladin/Ranger is a good build DoD brings TWF up to snuff when looking at AOE damage, DoD may not be as good as the combination of cleaves and glancing blows for AoE damage but its close enough given the single target advantage that TWF has.

Mindos
01-13-2015, 06:27 PM
Tempest ranger is more oriented to the dex to damage on finessable weapons, but they don't have the boosts that rogues get for their dex to damage lines.
I still see fighters in groups, the only rangers are Arcane archers. or splashed ranger to take advantage of arcane archer enhancements.
I have yet to see anyone playing a tempest ranger except perhaps someone wanting to build a Drizz't wannabe build for nostalgia..

anyone out there actually playing a 2wf tempest ranger in endgame viable content? and if you are out there are you happy with tempest compared to other enhancement lines..
..Mine never made it past the training dummy..

I play a pure Elf Ranger, with dual Celestias. Took extend, and elf dragonmark gives several minutes of displacement. Max Dex and Con. Black Dragonscale, err hide i think, planar sneak attack, The Deepwood sniper 3 core sneak attack bluff, and now? With the cooldown reduced on dance of death? My god, I don't know what Sev thinks he's trolling! Maybe their collective spreadsheets show an average or median failing of DPS, but I never have any trouble! Clear out a room of trash, especailly undead with the dual celestias, Switch to Rebellion and Agony for bosses, they spend more time turned around with deception then they do hitting you. just my opinion...

unbongwah
01-13-2015, 10:13 PM
try it out
I have. I still can't figure out the point. It's an "instakill" which can only be used on mobs with less than 1,000 HPs; my build is nothing special, but I crit for more than that and don't have to waste a TU to do it. What am I missing?

Makkuroi
01-14-2015, 12:59 AM
I have. I still can't figure out the point. It's an "instakill" which can only be used on mobs with less than 1,000 HPs; my build is nothing special, but I crit for more than that and don't have to waste a TU to do it. What am I missing?

I dont think youre missing much... its great at lvl 12-16, when you can get it and when most mobs generally have below 1k hp. It can also kill several mobs in one hit (not sure if glancing blow or double strike, was on a staff pally). At 20, I specced out of it because mobs have too many HP to make it applicable.

Damion01
01-14-2015, 07:29 AM
I just wanted to throw this in because i didn't see anyone else point it out, but Dance of Death is amazing for insta death abilities. I'll post my build, which is nothing special im sure with most of what you all have been doing for the past 10 years... but I run my ranger TWF with 2 Nightmare's the Fallen Moons (phantasmal killer and negative level drain), drow goggles (manslayer), and for my ED i run Shadow Dancer for (Executioner's Strike, chance to kill bleh bleh bleh)..

from EH to some EE (never solo'd EE yet) when i pop Dance of Death then open with executioner strike, i normally get 1 to all of the enemies dead in 1 hit (if lucky) any cleanup is rapidly losing levels and getting either dropped from manslayer or phantasmal.. or lastly my what i believe to be good... DPS.

Defensive im running all the normal stuff.. dodge i believe is 28%, blurry, ghostly, improved evasion, shadow form incorp.. got some other ED twists im at work so i can't post the entire build i will soon though.

Also i can't confirm this right now.. hopefully it doesnt get nerf'd if it does turn out to be this way... but single target DPS... go to your ship dummy and kill it a few times without Dance of Death... Then... pop dance of death and start wacking at the dummy... now it may just be me... but for some reason i can drop the training dummy in like under a 2 seconds.. so either dance of death makes every hit strike 5 times or something because it is VERY obvious how quickly the training dummy goes down with dance of death active on single target.

please be WAI!... don't nerf my ranger!

Taliom/Agronessen. 1st life Shadow Ranger

Mindos
01-14-2015, 06:08 PM
I just wanted to throw this in because i didn't see anyone else point it out, but Dance of Death is amazing for insta death abilities. I'll post my build, which is nothing special im sure with most of what you all have been doing for the past 10 years... but I run my ranger TWF with 2 Nightmare's the Fallen Moons (phantasmal killer and negative level drain), drow goggles (manslayer), and for my ED i run Shadow Dancer for (Executioner's Strike, chance to kill bleh bleh bleh)..

from EH to some EE (never solo'd EE yet) when i pop Dance of Death then open with executioner strike, i normally get 1 to all of the enemies dead in 1 hit (if lucky) any cleanup is rapidly losing levels and getting either dropped from manslayer or phantasmal.. or lastly my what i believe to be good... DPS.

Defensive im running all the normal stuff.. dodge i believe is 28%, blurry, ghostly, improved evasion, shadow form incorp.. got some other ED twists im at work so i can't post the entire build i will soon though.

Also i can't confirm this right now.. hopefully it doesnt get nerf'd if it does turn out to be this way... but single target DPS... go to your ship dummy and kill it a few times without Dance of Death... Then... pop dance of death and start wacking at the dummy... now it may just be me... but for some reason i can drop the training dummy in like under a 2 seconds.. so either dance of death makes every hit strike 5 times or something because it is VERY obvious how quickly the training dummy goes down with dance of death active on single target.

please be WAI!... don't nerf my ranger!

Taliom/Agronessen. 1st life Shadow Ranger

Top ranks in Dance of Death does +5W damage, IIRC

Please post how you got 28% dodge, would be helpfull. I can't remember what I had and didnt have, and its been buggin me

Damion01
01-14-2015, 07:53 PM
Top ranks in Dance of Death does +5W damage, IIRC

Please post how you got 28% dodge, would be helpfull. I can't remember what I had and didnt have, and its been buggin me

Sure with a combination of:

Dagger Tooth's Belt = combat mastery +4 max dodge cap for light medium armor
Improved Mobility (tempest) = +3 maximum dexterity bonus and dodge cap
Lithe (shadow dancer) +6 maximum dexterity bonus on light armor

and i wear Whisperchain so the max dex bonus raises to 28

Eth
01-16-2015, 05:22 AM
I'd argue that Dance of Death is so good I'd take it on almost any TWF toon (unless the 5 ranger splash really hurts for some reason).

Eth
01-16-2015, 05:25 AM
Top ranks in Dance of Death does +5W damage, IIRC
That should only apply for the initial attack, not every swing.



Please post how you got 28% dodge, would be helpfull. I can't remember what I had and didnt have, and its been buggin me
For a start the tempest dodge enhancement gives 6% at tier 3, not the advertised 3%.
With the required dodge feat. in order to take it that's already 9%.

levy1964
01-18-2015, 10:15 PM
Dance of Death is Good as is The Growing Storm, Evasive Dance is just barely worth the price of itself and Elaborate Parry which is bad because of dodge cap. A Thousand Cuts is not worth the AP the cooldown is too long, and the ability is is a joke compared to the similar T5 in Ninja.

Whirlwind needs to be bumped to at least 10% DS also but its a core not a capstone, and they should add a T5 to give full STR damage to offhand attacks. All round Tempest is a B+, or A Tree there are better but not that many. Sorry kind of segued into a Tree critic and not just a T4/T5.

parry rise dodge cap. so u are bad, not parry. i have 22% dodge on stock, with parry....52%, so why it's is so bad ?

Monkey-Boy
01-18-2015, 11:36 PM
parry rise dodge cap. so u are bad, not parry. i have 22% dodge on stock, with parry....52%, so why it's is so bad ?

Capped by the Dodge cap of your armor.

Monkey-Boy
01-18-2015, 11:37 PM
1000 Cuts need the same treatment as Dance of Death, have them share a timer so they can't be used at the same time. Do this and Tempest Single-target DPS won't be such garbage compared to the SWFing builds.

Eth
01-19-2015, 01:16 AM
parry rise dodge cap. so u are bad, not parry. i have 22% dodge on stock, with parry....52%, so why it's is so bad ?

This is only true if you wear nothing, robes or outfits. For light, medium and heavy armor the dodge cap of your armor applies.

levy1964
01-19-2015, 08:14 AM
This is only true if you wear nothing, robes or outfits. For light, medium and heavy armor the dodge cap of your armor applies.

and this is what...bug ? or need to be change ?...lol u want too many from this game, i know this is fantasy game, but start think reality, how to parry in Heavy armor, huh ? this is just stupid, this action need awensome mobility/dexterity, so equip robe/cloth or...your loss

Arlathen
01-19-2015, 04:27 PM
Still playing my Half-Elf 20 Ranger in EE's - Tempest Capstone, Dance of Death, Khopesh & Str/Int based with Know the Angles from Harper. DPS isn't the real problem on a Ranger, though I agree there behind Paladins / Bards for the Big numbers - there problems relate to a few bad enhancements and Glass Cannon survivability.

Eth
01-19-2015, 04:32 PM
and this is what...bug ? or need to be change ?...lol u want too many from this game, i know this is fantasy game, but start think reality, how to parry in Heavy armor, huh ? this is just stupid, this action need awensome mobility/dexterity, so equip robe/cloth or...your loss

Fair enough, but I don't see why it shouldn't apply to light armor.

Monkey-Boy
01-19-2015, 05:52 PM
Uncanny dodge isn't blocked by Dodge cap of armor, neither is that thingy in Shadow dancer.

Elaborate parry being limited by armor dodge-cap literally makes it worthless.

Arlathen
01-21-2015, 08:54 AM
Aww, why did the conversation die? It was tempting me out of Lurk mode.

So, as a general throw out there question?

How would you 'fix Rangers', if you would fix them at all? And I'm talking about the whole gamut of options here:

1. Ranger Melee 'Glass Cannon' Syndrome.
2. Pure Ranger Ranged viability
3. Poor T5 Melee Options
4. Other/unlisted/didn't mention it/outside-the-box ideas....

kgoodson3
01-21-2015, 09:59 AM
Aww, why did the conversation die? It was tempting me out of Lurk mode.

So, as a general throw out there question?

How would you 'fix Rangers', if you would fix them at all? And I'm talking about the whole gamut of options here:

1. Ranger Melee 'Glass Cannon' Syndrome.
2. Pure Ranger Ranged viability
3. Poor T5 Melee Options
4. Other/unlisted/didn't mention it/outside-the-box ideas....

1. Probably not what you are looking for but splashing 3 paladin or fighter for the 1st stalwart defender stance help a lot
2. Add ranged power to either Ranger levels above level 14/15 or add it to the level 18 and 20 cores in enhancements
3. Shorten cool down on "A Thousand Cuts". This would help and is an easy fix.

Grailhawk
01-21-2015, 10:17 AM
1000 Cuts needs to become a melee manyshot, +100% main and off hand DS 20 Seconds up time 120 second down time. This can put manyshot on cooldown if they want but should work with DoD.

New tier 5 to give 100% off hand stat damage boost

Whirlwind needs to become base 10% DS.

After that we can assess there DPS and see if they need more if so 10% Alacrity is where you Should go.

Elaborate Parry needs to raise armor dodge cap for light armor (It should also probably be lowered to a 30 or 45 second cooldown rather then 60 seconds), and there should be a new 3 Tired or 4 Level Spell that gives them 30% Concealment or Incorporealness.

kgoodson3
01-21-2015, 10:55 AM
1000 Cuts needs to become a melee manyshot, +100% main and off hand DS 20 Seconds up time 120 second down time. This can put manyshot on cooldown if they want but should work with DoD.

New tier 5 to give 100% off hand stat damage boost

Whirlwind needs to become base 10% DS.

After that we can assess there DPS and see if they need more if so 10% Alacrity is where you Should go.

Elaborate Parry needs to raise armor dodge cap for light armor (It should also probably be lowered to a 30 or 45 second cooldown rather then 60 seconds), and there should be a new 3 Tired or 4 Level Spell that gives them 30% Concealment or Incorporealness.

A Tier 5 100% off hand stat boost makes a ton of sense as a unique Tier 5 bonus for Tempest.

New spells are a whole different ball park, that should be passed on a number of classes.

unbongwah
01-21-2015, 12:22 PM
1. Probably not what you are looking for but splashing 3 paladin or fighter for the 1st stalwart defender stance help a lot
I think the goal here is "make pure rgrs better," not "what are the best splashes for rgrs?" Cuz we already know what those are. :)

New tier 5 to give 100% off hand stat damage boost

A Tier 5 100% off hand stat boost makes a ton of sense as a unique Tier 5 bonus for Tempest.
So basically you guys are saying you want rgr 5 / pal 15 builds to be even more powerful? Well, some of my planned rgr/pallies will certainly welcome the boost, but I don't think it addresses the original problem of pure rgrs being suboptimal. :cool:

I'm not sure answering power creep with more power creep is such a good idea, but here are some suggestions:



Each core enh (excluding capstone) provides +3 PRR, +1% Dodge, and +1 MDB while dual-wielding in light armor or robes. (so +15 PRR, +5% Dodge, +5 MDB at lv 18)
Whirlwind (lvl 18 core): instead of flat +5% doublestrike, gain a morale bonus to Doublestrike equal to your DEX mod while dual-wielding Finesseable weapons (inc. scimitars). [Don't need to go the DEX-to-dmg route, but need to be wielding DEX "compatible" weapons.]
Dervish (capstone) provides an extra +10 PRR, +5% Dodge, and +5 Max Dodge cap while dual-wielding in light armor or robes. Offhand atks get 100% dmg mod.
Improved Mobility rank 3 adds +5 Max Dodge cap as well.
Improved Parry rank 3: while actively blocking & dual-wielding, you will automatically negate one melee atk every 6 secs.
Elaborate Parry ignores your MDB and Max Dodge cap while dual-wielding in light armor or robes. Does not stack with Uncanny Dodge.
A Thousand Cuts: for each stack of Growing Storm, you gain +1/3/5% offhand doublestrike chance.


So a pure Tempest can gain +35 PRR from enhs (on par with a MC rgr w/defensive stance), have up to 35% Dodge cap, gain a temp +30% Dodge bonus from Elaborate Parry (on par w/Uncanny Dodge), gain full stat bonus to offhand atks (hopefully a reasonable tradeoff for not getting the crit bonuses of, e.g., Holy Sword), and has a base 35% offhand doublestrike chance (capstone + PTWF) which will "rev up" to 65% when Growing Storm+Thousand Cuts is fully charged (in addition to the +10 dmg mod). DEX-based Tempests get a nice boost from Whirlwind; the weapon restriction is so everyone doesn't just use khopeshes (or Mornh w/Pulverizer) and fits thematically with Tempest's focus on light weapons and fast atks. And they can still take Know the Angles from Harper to make up for no Div Might, though I feel bad about paywalling that.

I would also suggesting adding Shadow Dodge to the DWS tree; there's a nice empty spot smack in the middle of T3 it can go. :) Also, it's long overdue for rgrs & pallies to get CCW.

ETA: oh right, I forgot Melee Power! Hmmm, let's say +2 MP while dual-wielding for cores 3/6/12/18/20 so you have +10 MP total on a pure build.

Grailhawk
01-21-2015, 12:51 PM
the weapon restriction is so everyone doesn't just use khopeshes (or Mornh w/Pulverizer) and fits thematically with Tempest's focus on light weapons and fast atks.

I don't think the restriction is needed, if they want people choosing other weapon then given them weapons that are comparable, Tempest and Rangers have never had a favored weapon and have always had the choice of Dex or STR we shouldn't be trying to force them down one path which that would do.

Monkey-Boy
01-21-2015, 01:06 PM
I'd prefer 1000 Cuts get the same treatment as Dance of Death and share a cooldown.

See https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/451332-Regarding-the-Tempest-PRE

kgoodson3
01-21-2015, 01:18 PM
I think my point was more along the lines of "should" pure rangers have PRR and MRR of a Stalwart Defender multiclass?

Grailhawk
01-21-2015, 01:23 PM
I'd prefer 1000 Cuts get the same treatment as Dance of Death and share a cooldown.

See https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/451332-Regarding-the-Tempest-PRE

If manyshot can be used with Improved Precise Shot then i see no issue with using 1000 Cuts + Dance of Death at the same time.

I'm expecting that the Ranged pass will nerf Melee Rangers who burst with Manyshot every 120 seconds I would prefer they finesse 1000 Cuts to be a replacement for that.

Monkey-Boy
01-21-2015, 01:26 PM
I think my point was more along the lines of "should" pure rangers have PRR and MRR of a Stalwart Defender multiclass?

I don't think they should, heavy armor and a defenders stance SHOULD offer more absorption. As it it now you can get to 100ish PRR in light armor blitizing on a first-life toon which is decent.

With that said I think Shield of Whirling Steel should give 10 more PRR than it does.

Grailhawk
01-21-2015, 01:26 PM
I think my point was more along the lines of "should" pure rangers have PRR and MRR of a Stalwart Defender multiclass?

Rangers need defensive options to stay in melee combat or they wont be worth playing, Displacement clickies should not be the only thing that gives them this ability, whether they give them more PRR or Dodge doesn't matter to me (though I prefer some more dodge and class based concealment).

Monkey-Boy
01-21-2015, 01:29 PM
Rangers need defensive options to stay in melee combat or they wont be worth playing, Displacement clickies should not be the only thing that gives them this ability, whether they give them more PRR or Dodge doesn't matter to me (though I prefer some more dodge and class based concealment).

First thing regarding this is Fix Elaborate Parry so it's not affected by the Dodge cap of your armor. Uncanny Dodge isn't, nor is Meld into Darkness.

Grailhawk
01-21-2015, 01:31 PM
I don't think they should, heavy armor and a defenders stance SHOULD offer more absorption. As it it now you can get to 100ish PRR in light armor blitizing on a first-life toon which is decent.

With that said I think Shield of Whirling Steel should give 10 more PRR than it does.

Rangers should have similar class based defense to a Swashbuckler, there is a lot of Dodge and +Dodge Cap in the Swashbuckler tree, bards also have class based Displacement and Blur, IMO Rangers should have similar options.

Bards also have shield options to increase there PRR higher then a Ranger if this is countered by making Rangers more Dodgy that's fine but I don't think Rangers should be anywhere near as far behind a bard as they are defensively.

kgoodson3
01-21-2015, 01:35 PM
Anything added to lower cores below 18 or ranger levels 14 is going to improve multiclasses (Kensai-multis, Monkchers, Pali-multis). Only way to make pure rangers stronger without that effect is to keep it in the upper class levels or cores.

kgoodson3
01-21-2015, 01:37 PM
Rangers need defensive options to stay in melee combat or they wont be worth playing, Displacement clickies should not be the only thing that gives them this ability, whether they give them more PRR or Dodge doesn't matter to me (though I prefer some more dodge and class based concealment).

I would be on board with a level 4 ranger spell offering some "incorporeal".

Monkey-Boy
01-21-2015, 01:38 PM
Anything added to lower cores below 18 or ranger levels 14 is going to improve multiclasses (Kensai-multis, Monkchers, Pali-multis). Only way to make pure rangers stronger without that effect is to keep it in the upper class levels or cores.

Agreed

Monkey-Boy
01-21-2015, 01:39 PM
Rangers should have similar class based defense to a Swashbuckler, there is a lot of Dodge and +Dodge Cap in the Swashbuckler tree, bards also have class based Displacement and Blur, IMO Rangers should have similar options.

Bards also have shield options to increase there PRR higher then a Ranger if this is countered by making Rangers more Dodgy that's fine but I don't think Rangers should be anywhere near as far behind a bard as they are defensively.

Bard is over-powered garbage that should be nerfed-nuked from orbit.

But if it's not, then I agree.

Grailhawk
01-21-2015, 01:40 PM
Anything added to lower cores below 18 or ranger levels 14 is going to improve multiclasses (Kensai-multis, Monkchers, Pali-multis). Only way to make pure rangers stronger without that effect is to keep it in the upper class levels or cores.

In the current game Kensai multies dipping in to ranger don't bother me there not that much better then a pure Ranger any ways if they even are better, Paladins who take more then 6 Ranger are giving up a hell of a lot so you have all but 2 cores to work with, and Monkchers don't really put points into tempest so that's not a concern.

Grailhawk
01-21-2015, 01:44 PM
Bard is over-powered garbage that should be nerfed-nuked from orbit.

But if it's not, then I agree.

Good or bad devs have already confirmed that this is the new baseline...

Monkey-Boy
01-21-2015, 01:48 PM
Good or bad devs have already confirmed that this is the new baseline...

If bard is the new baseline class LOLz . . . buff the hell out of everything then.

Grailhawk
01-21-2015, 02:08 PM
If bard is the new baseline class LOLz . . . buff the hell out of everything then.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/454514-Are-Fighter-just-Gimp-w-the-saves-they-get?p=5515365&viewfull=1#post5515365

You miss that dev post or just too floored to acknowledge it yet? We are in a "buff the hell out of everything period."

kgoodson3
01-21-2015, 04:03 PM
Yes, what has been done to bard, paladin and barbarian is essentially the new melee baseline. Rogue, Ranger and to a lesser degree Monk and Fighter now need to catch up a little.

CrackedIce
01-22-2015, 06:56 AM
Top ranks in Dance of Death does +5W damage, IIRC

Please post how you got 28% dodge, would be helpfull. I can't remember what I had and didnt have, and its been buggin me


Aww, why did the conversation die? It was tempting me out of Lurk mode.

So, as a general throw out there question?

How would you 'fix Rangers', if you would fix them at all? And I'm talking about the whole gamut of options here:

1. Ranger Melee 'Glass Cannon' Syndrome.
2. Pure Ranger Ranged viability
3. Poor T5 Melee Options
4. Other/unlisted/didn't mention it/outside-the-box ideas....

With all these buff ideas, be it defensive or offensive, we should keep in mind the effect on multi class.

These are the three stages of multiclass we should have in mind when implementing changes:

6 ranger for palidon holy sword. This really puts damper on tier 5 upgrades.

12 ranger for tier 5 assassin or kensei. These buikds trade amazing AOE tier 5 damage from ranger for better single target damage. A fair tradeoff. Buffing core four at this stage is sensible. If this category is ignored, it will no longer be a stopping point due to Nerf by proxy.

I would even venture to say that whatever we would want to add to tier 5 such as offhand full damage should go here. This would increase the damage of the capstone without needing to put something more at that level.

14 15 ranger splashed ranger. Usually for defense stance or some other shoring of build designs. Putting new spell here for incorporeal would be trading off other two utility ranger spells, so fair trade here.

18 and 20 even less impact with 2 levels for splash than ranger 14. These levels set aside for major buffs which would would allow pure ranger to feel and be competitive with multi class. Maybe start with 7 instead of 5 for doublestrike.

As for thousand cuts it should be the manyshot for melee and I believe this was their intention. It should not be 20/sec and same cool down as melee will have better damage per second than ranged many shot. 8 to 10 sec should be fine. The devs seem to forget that the mobs worth uzing this on are not trash mobs but bosses and bosses like to run around. A six second duration is not enough. As for length of cool down it should be a bit less than it is currently, but not overtly so. We also need to keep in mind that one has already spent 39 ap here which is a Significant invmestment. The main consideration for balance is, again, holy sword.

CrackedIce
01-22-2015, 08:38 AM
With all these buff ideas, be it defensive or offensive, we should keep in mind the effect on multi class.


18 and 20 even less impact with 2 levels for splash than ranger 14. These levels set aside for major buffs which would would allow pure ranger to feel and be competitive with multi class. Maybe start with 7 instead of 5 for doublestrike.



Arg, cannot edit. I would say that main pointer at this level is ensuring the defensive side of the Ranger and that these levels should complete the full package for added dodge and/or PRR

Maybe 1 dodge per core taken with 2 PRR per core taken. 18 and 20 increases max dex for armor increasing total dodge bonus. (these ideas can easily be adjusted)

Damage already looks fine with changes made to have full-off hand damage, fixing thousand cuts, and increasing double strike to 7 as opposes to 5.

All I see left is adding some melee power at core 18 and this should be it.

Grailhawk
01-22-2015, 10:17 AM
With all these buff ideas, be it defensive or offensive, we should keep in mind the effect on multi class.

These are the three stages of multiclass we should have in mind when implementing changes:

6 ranger for palidon holy sword. This really puts damper on tier 5 upgrades.

12 ranger for tier 5 assassin or kensei. These buikds trade amazing AOE tier 5 damage from ranger for better single target damage. A fair tradeoff. Buffing core four at this stage is sensible. If this category is ignored, it will no longer be a stopping point due to Nerf by proxy.

I disagree with you assessment of Tier 5's the fact that Tier 5's are exclusive to one tree keeps this in balance regardless of what classes you multi-class with a TWF Paladin 15/5 who gives up tier fives in other trees to take tier 5 in tempest is fine. Further in the case of a Paladin the level 18 and 20 KtoC cores are fantastic and would keep this multiclass option balance even with buffs to Tempest Tier 5 (at least the buffs I've suggested)/



18 and 20 even less impact with 2 levels for splash than ranger 14. These levels set aside for major buffs which would would allow pure ranger to feel and be competitive with multi class. Maybe start with 7 instead of 5 for doublestrike.

You are aware that TWF takes a doublestrike penalty and gets less boost from it than any other fighting style? There is absolutely no reason why this should not be a 10 and it likely should be +10 Main hand and +10 Offhand DS to keep thing balanced but we aren't even at +10 Main hand yet.



As for thousand cuts it should be the manyshot for melee and I believe this was their intention. It should not be 20/sec and same cool down as melee will have better damage per second than ranged many shot. 8 to 10 sec should be fine. The devs seem to forget that the mobs worth uzing this on are not trash mobs but bosses and bosses like to run around. A six second duration is not enough. As for length of cool down it should be a bit less than it is currently, but not overtly so. We also need to keep in mind that one has already spent 39 ap here which is a Significant invmestment. The main consideration for balance is, again, holy sword.

Have you seen shadow double in the Ninja tree?

Sorry but you are being to reserved in your suggestion, Look at swashbuckler Tempest needs to be as good a tree as that though different with your suggestion its still miles behind.

CrackedIce
01-22-2015, 06:54 PM
I disagree with you assessment of Tier 5's the fact that Tier 5's are exclusive to one tree keeps this in balance regardless of what classes you multi-class with a TWF Paladin 15/5 who gives up tier fives in other trees to take tier 5 in tempest is fine. Further in the case of a Paladin the level 18 and 20 KtoC cores are fantastic and would keep this multiclass option balance even with buffs to Tempest Tier 5 (at least the buffs I've suggested)/



You are aware that TWF takes a doublestrike penalty and gets less boost from it than any other fighting style? There is absolutely no reason why this should not be a 10 and it likely should be +10 Main hand and +10 Offhand DS to keep thing balanced but we aren't even at +10 Main hand yet.



Have you seen shadow double in the Ninja tree?

Sorry but you are being to reserved in your suggestion, Look at swashbuckler Tempest needs to be as good a tree as that though different with your suggestion its still miles behind.


Regards to tier 5. My comment was solely meant for holy sword which is a tier five compatible ability coupled with a strong tier five tree like tempest bridges itself to OP. Were we to put more win in tempest tier five like full off hand damage that would be OP. Or am I being just too conservative as you say?

What do mean double strike for twf there is a penalty. I am aware that it does not share the same 1.5 merits to damage as thf but does it not actually receive the additional chance for doublestrike? If so sounds like a bug to me.

No I am not aware of shadow double as I do not play monks. Just looked at it. That is interesting. The Dev have mentioned that they ran the numbers for thousand cuts and said that it would be too powerful to have longer duration. I wonder why they would think on a monk it would be any different.


Yes swash is so good you can not have coup and not notice it as you kill so fast anyway. That ability should be available for deepwood tier five by the way.

Defensively I agree that Tempest needs more in line like swash. I do disagree about the need for more damage increase to tempest. The 25% offhand together with everything else. Idk it looks more than enough assuming that its defenses are good enough to be toe to toe.

Monkey-Boy
01-22-2015, 06:59 PM
What do mean double strike for twf there is a penalty.

Double-strike only gives 1/2 as much value to TWFing as it does to SWFing/THFing.

CrackedIce
01-22-2015, 07:19 PM
Double-strike only gives 1/2 as much value to TWFing as it does to SWFing/THFing.

Well that is way of a letdown and really changes my focus for double strike for twf as in its not worth giving up something to get it as in getting flurry armor taking grace in elf if could really only spend 12 pts splashing to 2 wizard for 3 double strike, taking 18 tempest for 5% double strike...etc

Wait a second! Does the capstone only provide half benefit too?

It seems to me allowing twf to have full doublestrike would go long way to bringing twf on par with the other fighting styles.

CThruTheEgo
01-22-2015, 11:16 PM
Well that is way of a letdown and really changes my focus for double strike for twf as in its not worth giving up something to get it as in getting flurry armor taking grace in elf if could really only spend 12 pts splashing to 2 wizard for 3 double strike, taking 18 tempest for 5% double strike...etc

Wait a second! Does the capstone only provide half benefit too?

It seems to me allowing twf to have full doublestrike would go long way to bringing twf on par with the other fighting styles.

It's not exactly that doublestrike provides 1/2 the benefit to twf, as in only gaining 3% when 6% is advertised. It's that doublestrike only affects your main hand, not your offhand which, in the case of a tempest with 100% offhand attacks, provides 50% of your total attacks.

The tempest capstone provides 25% offhand attacks, which doesn't affect your mainhand attacks at all, so again, you can consider it as providing half the benefit.

Overall, though, you really need to look at the attack percentage of both hands together. For example, in the case of Totally Bass Ackwards (shameless plug – link in my sig), I'll end up with 113% mainhand attacks and 135% offhand attacks, which isn't bad at all. Compared to other older capstones such as kensai, this really isn't too far behind since kensai gives 15% doublestrike (which, again, favors thf and swf over twf) plus some other useful stuff. Compared to the newer capstones of swashbuckler, paladin, and barb, however, tempest capstone is way behind, but then, so is everything else that hasn't been recently revamped.

Grailhawk
01-23-2015, 11:52 AM
Regards to tier 5. My comment was solely meant for holy sword which is a tier five compatible ability coupled with a strong tier five tree like tempest bridges itself to OP. Were we to put more win in tempest tier five like full off hand damage that would be OP. Or am I being just too conservative as you say?
Yes i think you are being most of this is because of how much better SWF is over TWF though. Paladins are better off going with SWF and possibly THF so they have taken a hit there as well as not taking other Tier 5's, note that if they want to give Rangers a +Crit % or +Crit Mult in tier 5 like most other classes have these days that does not stack with with Holy Sword that would be fine too, 100% off hand Stat is much weaker then +Crit and is only really need as a way to bring TWF up to snuff with SWF and THF hence why its ok for it to be a Tier 5 in the TWF tree, IMO.




Yes swash is so good you can not have coup and not notice it as you kill so fast anyway. That ability should be available for deepwood tier five by the way.

I agree Stalker could use some work and an Insta Kill would be thematically appropriate.



Defensively I agree that Tempest needs more in line like swash. I do disagree about the need for more damage increase to tempest. The 25% offhand together with everything else. Idk it looks more than enough assuming that its defenses are good enough to be toe to toe.

Given Bards, Barbarian, and Paladin DPS no Tempest is very far behind in game test are showing them around 50% the DPS the other classes.

adrian69
01-23-2015, 04:08 PM
That build is ancient - pre-U19, at least, based on the enhancements - and shouldn't be used anymore.

If we're chasing after FotM builds, a pure pally or rgr 5 / pal 15 has better melee DPS than Cetus, thanks to the improvements to Holy Sword; while the Armor Up changes mean Evasion is no longer the must-have it once was. I know some folks who have abandoned Evasion for Shadow Guardian armor: meaningful DR plus a big boost to PRR/MRR is more useful than Evasion & high Dodge, in their view.

Yeah, I can't believe he used that build as example.

You're correct. I have gave up on evasion+dodge for defense as many others have. The damage mitigation from heavy armor is far superior now to evasion. I haven't sat down to figure out how it all works, but even on Von3 EE I can walk through traps with minimal damage. However, I think on a build w/ 11+ ranger levels I would see where light armor+evasion is now. I know my fleshy bard did great, but he also had dodge cap, and otherwise I play toasters adamantine feat. If it didn't workout I can just put heavy shadow back on or farm some heavy red plate.

Grailhawk
01-23-2015, 04:18 PM
However, I think on a build w/ 11+ ranger levels I would see where light armor+evasion is now. I know my fleshy bard did great, but he also had dodge cap...

Not worth it better off in heavy armor, Bards get a lot of +Dodge, +Dodge Cap, and Displacement that Rangers don't.

Cetus
01-24-2015, 12:28 AM
If we're chasing after FotM builds, a pure pally or rgr 5 / pal 15 has better melee DPS than Cetus, t

Ahem, Cetus is now a pure pally which pwns the 15/5 split :D

Andoris
01-26-2015, 12:21 AM
Not worth it better off in heavy armor, Bards get a lot of +Dodge, +Dodge Cap, and Displacement that Rangers don't.

Agreed, its why I spent 2 feats to get heavy armor on my 20 ranger build

Damion01
01-27-2015, 07:29 AM
Hello i know it might sound crazy, but to boost ranger/tempest mitigation why not create a capstone to allow a rangers offhand weapon to count and be coded as a shield for mitigation purposes? I know like having the 7% double strike for shield master feat would be a little sick on the dps side so maybe not add that. but the extra PPR and AC would be nice? i know the shield bonus 50% from unyielding sentinel affects shield of whirling steel.. so why not make the rest of the mitigation stuff work aswell?

just a thought, some refinement ideas anyone?

Monkey-Boy
01-27-2015, 08:11 AM
Hello i know it might sound crazy, but to boost ranger/tempest mitigation why not create a capstone to allow a rangers offhand weapon to count and be coded as a shield for mitigation purposes? I know like having the 7% double strike for shield master feat would be a little sick on the dps side so maybe not add that. but the extra PPR and AC would be nice? i know the shield bonus 50% from unyielding sentinel affects shield of whirling steel.. so why not make the rest of the mitigation stuff work aswell?

just a thought, some refinement ideas anyone?

Just have it give 20 PRR instead of 10.

Tempest defense is weak compared to heavy armor (of course you can always wear heavy armor . . . ). The biggest issues at this time regarding tempest is their DPS sucks horribly compared to classes that just got revisited. Dance of death is fine for AOE, bit the single-target is pathetic.

Damion01
01-27-2015, 08:58 AM
Just have it give 20 PRR instead of 10.

Tempest defense is weak compared to heavy armor (of course you can always wear heavy armor . . . ). The biggest issues at this time regarding tempest is their DPS sucks horribly compared to classes that just got revisited. Dance of death is fine for AOE, bit the single-target is pathetic.

Maybe make it so Elaborate Parry works if you have a light or finessable weapon, the cooldown drops to maybe 20 seconds?

Arlathen
01-27-2015, 12:04 PM
Well, there's been some fine idea's so far in this thread, so time to put my money where my mouth is and put forward my own suggestions. If a currently exisiting enhancement isn't listed, then it hasn't changed from the current enhancement. I've also stolen Severlin's penchant for red text to show the changes that I've made.



Cores

Shield of Whirling Steel: While you are dual wielding, you gain a +2 Shield bonus to Armor Class and +3 PRR. This increases by +1 AC and +3 PRR for each additional Tempest Core Ability you acquire. In addition, if you are a level 1 character, you gain the Two Weapon Fighting feat until you reach character level 2. (Two Weapon Fighting is granted permanently when you take a second Ranger level).

Tempest: No change.

Graceful Death: You gain 5% Melee Doublestrike. For each additional Tempest Core Ability you acquire, you gain an additional 5% Melee Doublestrike. While you are dual wielding, you can use your Dexterity modifier for damage with light melee weapons.

Deflect Arrows: No change.

Whirlwind: Your Melee Attacks each gain a 3% chance to knockdown enemies for 3 seconds, making them helpless. This effect does not work against red-named or Boss creatures.

Dervish: You gain +4 Dexterity. You now have a +25% chance to doublestrike with your off-hand when dual wielding. While you are dual wielding, Vorpal attacks cause your target to lose 1% of there maximum health as HP damage. This effect does not occur against red-namd or Boss creatures.



Tier One

Whirling Blades: +1 to-hit and damage when dual wielding. If you have a minimum of three Ranger levels, you gain 3 Melee Power.

Improved Defense: Your Shield of Whirling Steel grants +1/+2/+3 additional AC, +0/+1/+2 PRR and if you possess Deflect Arrows it can trigger once every 4/3/2 seconds.



Tier Two

Whirling Blades: +1 to-hit and damage when dual wielding. If you have a minimum of six Ranger levels, you gain 3 Melee Power.

Improved Parry: Gain +5/+10/+15 PRR when dual wielding.

Improved Dodge: +1%/+2%/+3% dodge when wearing light or no armor. Dodge Feat Requirement removed.



Tier Three

Whirling Blades: +1 to-hit and damage when dual wielding. If you have a minimum of twelve Ranger levels, you gain 3 Melee Power.

Improved Mobility: +1/+3/+5 Maximum Dexterity bonus and Dodge Cap while wearing light or no armor. -1/-2/-3 armor check penalty in light armor. Mobility Feat Requirement removed.

Critical Proficiency: +1/+2/+3 to confirm critical hits and critical hit damage.



Tier Four

Whirling Blades: +1 to-hit and damage when dual wielding. If you have a minimum of eighteen Ranger levels, you gain 3 Melee Power.

Elaborate Parry: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Attacks an opponent. For the next 5/10/15 seconds, each time you damage an opponent you gain +2% dodge for 5 seconds. This effect can exceed your maximum Dexterity Bonus and the Maximum Dodge Cap. This effect can stack up to 15 times. (Cooldown: 30 seconds).

The Growing Storm: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Attacks an opponent. For the next 5/10/15 seconds, each time you damage an opponent you gain +1 damage for 5 seconds. This effect can stack up to 10 times. (Cooldown: 30 seconds).

Critical Mastery: 3 Ranks, 2 AP Per Rank. When you critical hit, you gain a +2/+4/+6 bonus to critical damage for 6s. Requires: Critical Proficiency



Tier Five

A Thousand Cuts: Passive: When Dual Wielding, each time you hit an opponent in melee combat, you gain 1% / 2% / 2% Mainhand and 0% / 1% / 2% Offhand Doublestrike for 6 seconds. This may stack upto the number of Ranger levels you posess. All stacks expire on expiration of the timer.



Overview of Main Changes
1. Cores give upto 20% Mainhand Doublestrike instead of 5% , with offhand doublestrike boost retained in Capstone.
2. Cores give an additional 18 PRR, with Improved Parry upgraded to 15 PRR for the same cost.
3. Ranger 18 core gives in-built CC effect
4. Ranger 20 core gives scaling damage bonus versus trash mobs.
5. Thousand Cuts turned into a strong Single Target damage ability to compare with the Dance of Death AoE ability.
6. Whirling Strike line offers more Melee Power based on how many Ranger levels you have - upto 12% for Ranger 18.
7. Critical damage line turned into something more useful - +3 Seeker, with a damage buff upto another +6 Seeker.
7. Feat requirements removed from abilities, opening up build choices.

A few extra notes:

Whirling Strike

One of the weakest areas of the tree for me, just seems so bad to spend 2AP on a measly +1 Damage hence the addition of a scaling Melee Power that also is restricted by actual class levels. I can also see the change to the Whirling Strike line being able to be developed for other tree's that need improvement as well. For example, the War Priest Righteous Weapons line could be given the exact some option based upon the number of Cleric or Favoured Soul levels the character has.

PRR

There's enough PRR in the cores and the Improved Parry to offset the Light Armour a Ranger wears. I've deliberately not gone totally over the top here, nor added any extra MRR as a Rangers Magic Defense should be Dexterity & Evasion.

Doublestrike, Doublestrike, Doublestrike

I personally prefer the direction of more 'Attacks per Second' rather than the over used Critical Damage bonuses. I;ve not messed around with any math in this department, but the idea of 100% Offhand attack chance, with 20% Mainhand Doublestrike and 25% Offhand Doublestrike chance 'out of the bag' sounds like a good decent platform to work from. Thousand cuts offers the significant Single Target damage addition while Dance of Death retains its current AoE capability.

Grailhawk
01-27-2015, 12:14 PM
Whirling Strike

One of the weakest areas of the tree for me, just seems so bad to spend 2AP on a measly +1 Damage hence the addition of a scaling Melee Power that also is restricted by actual class levels. I can also see the change to the Whirling Strike line being able to be developed for other tree's that need improvement as well. For example, the War Priest Righteous Weapons line could be given the exact some option based upon the number of Cleric or Favoured Soul levels the character has.

Your propose is fine but I disagree with this sentiment (adding 3 MP to each is fine I don't have a problem with that) +1 damage is a good enhancement it is not measly at all If i could spend 80 AP in one tree for +40 damage I would. +1 Damage is so underrated by so many people but its one of the best enh in any tree.

Monkey-Boy
01-27-2015, 12:15 PM
Maybe make it so Elaborate Parry works if you have a light or finessable weapon, the cooldown drops to maybe 20 seconds?

Elaborate parry is worthless right now because it caps the the dodge cap of your armor. It is literally useless.

Fix that first.

And please don't try to pigeon-hole tempests into having to use "light or finnesable" weapons - their DPS is bad enough already.

CrackedIce
01-27-2015, 08:49 PM
Well, there's been some fine idea's so far in this thread, so time to put my money where my mouth is and put forward my own suggestions. If a currently exisiting enhancement isn't listed, then it hasn't changed from the current enhancement. I've also stolen Severlin's penchant for red text to show the changes that I've made.



Cores

Shield of Whirling Steel: While you are dual wielding, you gain a +2 Shield bonus to Armor Class and +3 PRR. This increases by +1 AC and +3 PRR for each additional Tempest Core Ability you acquire. In addition, if you are a level 1 character, you gain the Two Weapon Fighting feat until you reach character level 2. (Two Weapon Fighting is granted permanently when you take a second Ranger level).

Tempest: No change.

Graceful Death: You gain 5% Melee Doublestrike. For each additional Tempest Core Ability you acquire, you gain an additional 5% Melee Doublestrike. While you are dual wielding, you can use your Dexterity modifier for damage with light melee weapons.

Deflect Arrows: No change.

Whirlwind: Your Melee Attacks each gain a 3% chance to knockdown enemies for 3 seconds, making them helpless. This effect does not work against red-named or Boss creatures.

Dervish: You gain +4 Dexterity. You now have a +25% chance to doublestrike with your off-hand when dual wielding. While you are dual wielding, Vorpal attacks cause your target to lose 1% of there maximum health as HP damage. This effect does not occur against red-namd or Boss creatures.



Tier One

Whirling Blades: +1 to-hit and damage when dual wielding. If you have a minimum of three Ranger levels, you gain 3 Melee Power.

Improved Defense: Your Shield of Whirling Steel grants +1/+2/+3 additional AC, +0/+1/+2 PRR and if you possess Deflect Arrows it can trigger once every 4/3/2 seconds.



Tier Two

Whirling Blades: +1 to-hit and damage when dual wielding. If you have a minimum of six Ranger levels, you gain 3 Melee Power.

Improved Parry: Gain +5/+10/+15 PRR when dual wielding.

Improved Dodge: +1%/+2%/+3% dodge when wearing light or no armor. Dodge Feat Requirement removed.



Tier Three

Whirling Blades: +1 to-hit and damage when dual wielding. If you have a minimum of twelve Ranger levels, you gain 3 Melee Power.

Improved Mobility: +1/+3/+5 Maximum Dexterity bonus and Dodge Cap while wearing light or no armor. -1/-2/-3 armor check penalty in light armor. Mobility Feat Requirement removed.

Critical Proficiency: +1/+2/+3 to confirm critical hits and critical hit damage.



Tier Four

Whirling Blades: +1 to-hit and damage when dual wielding. If you have a minimum of eighteen Ranger levels, you gain 3 Melee Power.

Elaborate Parry: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Attacks an opponent. For the next 5/10/15 seconds, each time you damage an opponent you gain +2% dodge for 5 seconds. This effect can exceed your maximum Dexterity Bonus and the Maximum Dodge Cap. This effect can stack up to 15 times. (Cooldown: 30 seconds).

The Growing Storm: Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Attacks an opponent. For the next 5/10/15 seconds, each time you damage an opponent you gain +1 damage for 5 seconds. This effect can stack up to 10 times. (Cooldown: 30 seconds).

Critical Mastery: 3 Ranks, 2 AP Per Rank. When you critical hit, you gain a +2/+4/+6 bonus to critical damage for 6s. Requires: Critical Proficiency



Tier Five

A Thousand Cuts: Passive: When Dual Wielding, each time you hit an opponent in melee combat, you gain 1% / 2% / 2% Mainhand and 0% / 1% / 2% Offhand Doublestrike for 6 seconds. This may stack upto the number of Ranger levels you posess. All stacks expire on expiration of the timer.



Overview of Main Changes
1. Cores give upto 20% Mainhand Doublestrike instead of 5% , with offhand doublestrike boost retained in Capstone.
2. Cores give an additional 18 PRR, with Improved Parry upgraded to 15 PRR for the same cost.
3. Ranger 18 core gives in-built CC effect
4. Ranger 20 core gives scaling damage bonus versus trash mobs.
5. Thousand Cuts turned into a strong Single Target damage ability to compare with the Dance of Death AoE ability.
6. Whirling Strike line offers more Melee Power based on how many Ranger levels you have - upto 12% for Ranger 18.
7. Critical damage line turned into something more useful - +3 Seeker, with a damage buff upto another +6 Seeker.
7. Feat requirements removed from abilities, opening up build choices.

A few extra notes:

Whirling Strike

One of the weakest areas of the tree for me, just seems so bad to spend 2AP on a measly +1 Damage hence the addition of a scaling Melee Power that also is restricted by actual class levels. I can also see the change to the Whirling Strike line being able to be developed for other tree's that need improvement as well. For example, the War Priest Righteous Weapons line could be given the exact some option based upon the number of Cleric or Favoured Soul levels the character has.

PRR

There's enough PRR in the cores and the Improved Parry to offset the Light Armour a Ranger wears. I've deliberately not gone totally over the top here, nor added any extra MRR as a Rangers Magic Defense should be Dexterity & Evasion.

Doublestrike, Doublestrike, Doublestrike

I personally prefer the direction of more 'Attacks per Second' rather than the over used Critical Damage bonuses. I;ve not messed around with any math in this department, but the idea of 100% Offhand attack chance, with 20% Mainhand Doublestrike and 25% Offhand Doublestrike chance 'out of the bag' sounds like a good decent platform to work from. Thousand cuts offers the significant Single Target damage addition while Dance of Death retains its current AoE capability.

For what its worth, I like what your suggesting here. Why no full offhand damage somewhere?

There are a lot if attacks, but it would still need more omph from base damage.

QuantumFX
02-06-2015, 08:33 PM
I have plenty of love for the Ranger class, and hatred for the current implementations of Ranger PrE's. So, I'll just stay on topic.

Love:
- Dance of Death

Enjoy:
- The Growing Storm: It would fit better in the “button-fu” if the cooldown was 20 seconds.

Have forum inappropriate things to say about:
- Elaborate Parry: If “Reed in the Wind” actually worked, I would put the APs there over this trap of an enhancement in a heartbeat.
- A Thousand Cuts: Too short of a duration and too long of a cooldown.

Micron
02-26-2015, 01:58 PM
I play a mostly melee pure halfling ranger and for a long time I ran with Tier 5 DWS enhancements and liked them. Even after I learned about the change to Dance of Death, I was quite reluctant to let go of Extra Favoured Enemy which gives me +12 damage per hit against Favoured Enemies (of which I had 6 as a pure ranger - undead, constructs, evil outsiders, humans, elementals, giants - possibly close to 2/3 of all mobs you come across) and the +20 positive spell power from DWS capstone. I liked Heavy Draw, too. Now I've finally taken the plunge and respecced to take 2 tiers of Evasive Dance and Growing Storm and 3 tiers of Dance of Death and I've been running some EEs to test it. Dance of Death is very impressive indeed and my initial thoughts are that I'll probably stick with this respec. In 1-on-1 fights against Favoured Enemy bosses the DPS is lower than before but whenever you fight more than 1 mob, DoD makes a big difference.
Elaborate Parry is subject to dodge cap as people have mentioned, however on my particular gimpy build with gimpy gear it still gives me an extra +8% so it's still worth it for me.
I've never even tried A Thousand Cuts because I'm way to lazy to remember to push a button every 2 minutes to get some sort of effect for 6 seconds.