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Cordovan
11-21-2014, 05:07 PM
If you've been questing on Lamannia, we'd love to get your feedback on something new that's been added to Update 24 in our most recent build: Monster Champions! From the Release Notes:




NEW: Monster Champions: Some enemies will now gain randomized buffs on Hard and Elite difficulties. Players can see an indicator above an enemies' head to identify them as having been buffed. Enemies who receive the buffs are called Champions, and have a visible crown above their head to mark them. Mini-boss Champions have a chance to drop a chest when defeated. Monster Champions do not appear in raids.

Krelar
11-21-2014, 05:12 PM
So are the champions in all quests or only the new ones?

I'm also curious if these champions are randomly selected from all mobs in a quest, randomly selected from specific mobs chosen in each quest, or if specific mobs in a quest will always be champions on Hard an Elite.

UurlockYgmeov
11-21-2014, 05:21 PM
this sounds cool!

keep this style of things coming!

Kamode_Corebasher
11-21-2014, 05:24 PM
If you've been questing on Lamannia, we'd love to get your feedback on something new that's been added to Update 24 in our most recent build: Monster Champions! From the Release Notes:

This sounds wonderful...adding some excitement and randomness to any/all adventures is nothing but WIN in my book!

LeoLionxxx
11-21-2014, 05:33 PM
This sounds like a great little thing to make Questing a little more difficult and a little more interesting. Randomness is something that's great to add, especially with people TRing and re-running all the content. Some numbers would be nice:

Is the chance to encounter a Monster Champion increased on Elite relative to Hard?

What is the chance that a monster on Elite will be a champion? How often will we encounter a monster like this?


Depending on this, you might not want to have a crown display above the monster's head because, it might be intrusive for the view (and seeing 2 or 3 together would make them not-so-special). Of course, I'd have to see how exactly the crown shows up to form an opinion, but if the crown doesn't work out a simple change to the monster's name colour (something like silver) would be cool.

Ainlaen
11-21-2014, 05:57 PM
To give some idea of what you can expect from these, I ran into the first boss of LoD as one of these new champions. She had buffs that increased her damage, gave her true seeing, and gave her the ability to bypass enemy fortification. Needless to say, these buffs on an actual hard hitting boss would make it very difficult. She also dropped a chest, which was of course worthless.

I'm not in favor of this change, personally. The indication that you're dealing with a champion is too easy to miss and the reward is at best trivial. At least make them worth a few thousand XP or something.

Edited to add: This was on EE. In total I ran into about 8 champions mobs.

Qhualor
11-21-2014, 06:08 PM
sounds cool and something along the lines of different and challenge. ill check it out soon.

Qezuzu
11-21-2014, 06:43 PM
Definitely sounds interesting, I'll have to wait and see what sort of buffs are given.

Monkey-Boy
11-21-2014, 07:27 PM
Does this change their color? Are they still "orange"? Etc . . .

CaptainSpacePony
11-21-2014, 09:20 PM
I do like this idea.

I will like it even better if the buffs can be dispelled. Right now, dispel magic and the like are offensively nearly worthless.

Portalcat
11-21-2014, 09:24 PM
Are these enemies (A) immune to death effects, and/or (B) immune to level drain?

Seikojin
11-21-2014, 10:06 PM
If you've been questing on Lamannia, we'd love to get your feedback on something new that's been added to Update 24 in our most recent build: Monster Champions! From the Release Notes:

Awesome, now you need to add them to wilderness and even make nameds spawn with champion versions. Upping the chances of named item drops :)

Scrabbler
11-21-2014, 10:13 PM
If you've been questing on Lamannia, we'd love to get your feedback on something new that's been added to Update 24 in our most recent build: Monster Champions! From the Release Notes:
Well, I did all the new dungeons on Hard, and never noticed any creatures with a random crown on his head. Apparently the spawn rate isn't huge (or the new dungeons have low numbers of monsters)


I don't like the sound of that idea as a global thing. It'd probably be better if the designers of particular dungeons / areas had been encouraged to include more of that kind of enemy variety as they built it, not having something happen without their control. For example, instead of every non-boss Orthon and Barbazu within Shavarath being identical to each other (within difficulty level), 50% of them could've been slightly different character classes (like Sorcerer, antiPaladin, etc).

Seikojin
11-22-2014, 12:16 AM
Well, I did all the new dungeons on Hard, and never noticed any creatures with a random crown on his head. Apparently the spawn rate isn't huge (or the new dungeons have low numbers of monsters)


I don't like the sound of that idea as a global thing. It'd probably be better if the designers of particular dungeons / areas had been encouraged to include more of that kind of enemy variety as they built it, not having something happen without their control. For example, instead of every non-boss Orthon and Barbazu within Shavarath being identical to each other (within difficulty level), 50% of them could've been slightly different character classes (like Sorcerer, antiPaladin, etc).

I love the champions offensive abilities. I did EH palace of stone and ran across 20 or so of them. I think for eh, that is good for soloing. However their HP is a little lacking. I think they need either some DR, more HP, or some healing power. Perhaps the healing power that the named mobs in shroud have? That way it forces players to pull and work them down.

Also out of the 20, none spawned a chest.

Scrabbler
11-22-2014, 12:26 AM
If you've been questing on Lamannia, we'd love to get your feedback on something new that's been added to Update 24 in our most recent build: Monster Champions! From the Release Notes:
Also, it is bad to have mechanics that only show up on Hard/Elite.

The only difference between Normal and Elite should be the stat numbers of monsters and traps... the monsters shouldn't be more numerous, use different rules, or get any new abilities (that couldn't also show up in a higher-level Normal dungeon).

Seikojin
11-22-2014, 12:28 AM
Also, it is bad to have mechanics that only show up on Hard/Elite.

The only difference between Normal and Elite should be the stat numbers of monsters and traps... the monsters shouldn't be more numerous, use different rules, or get any new abilities (that couldn't also show up in a higher-level Normal dungeon).

I think hard and elite are great for the mechanic. 80% of the players play those difficulties.

I think they need to do 1.5 times the damage on each difficulty and have 2 times their current hp.

Scrabbler
11-22-2014, 12:40 AM
I think hard and elite are great for the mechanic. 80% of the players play those difficulties.
The pathetic non-challenge of Normal is one of DDO's ongoing failures; and something that was kicked into high-gear this year when the devs changed their balance goal to make Epic Elite managable for all builds.

There's already Casual mode if someone needs everything to be easy; they need to either fix Normal to be normal, or else make Hard the default (and allow everyone to open Hard their first run). The broken Normal mode is particularly troublesome for trying to recruit a new player, because all they see is Normal and it seems broken.

bbqzor
11-22-2014, 12:41 AM
increased her damage
gave her true seeing
gave her the ability to bypass enemy fortification

Just no turbine. No. This is "colors having adrenaline" all over again. You cannot blanket add random spots all over the game where mobs suddenly ignore blur, displacement, fortification, and randomly hit harder.

Its not balanced. It creates the chance for dungeons to spawn with combinations that effectively put you in the position where its better to just recall out and start over than bother. How does that help anyone?

Further feedback isnt really needed. Its a terrible idea. Dont believe me? Go read a Diablo 2 forum. That game has mobs called, wait for it, Champions. With randomly spawned effects. That are *notorious* for creating combinations where you just portal out to reroll it and go back in.

Its already been done. Its already been tested. Its flawed. And its no different here.

You want to have it be "only dungeons lv26-30" thats a step in the right direction. You want to limit it to effects which just buff the mob fine. Having a named randomly spawn with say 75 prr/mrr, but then drop a chest, okay fine. That doesnt screw over anyones character, just makes a random fighter harder but rewards you.

But having ALL dungeons randomly have a chance for buffs which defeat ALL of a characters mode of defense... its just a bad idea. And it was a bad idea before (random adrenaline). And it was a bad idea before that (Diablo). And I cant even believe Im having to post to say that. You want to walk into tomb of the shadow knight and have orange named pop which ignore fortification? Yea no thanks. Ever. No random chest vendor trash is worth that stress added to the game. Period. Why isnt this self evident to anyone over there?

Scrabbler
11-22-2014, 01:06 AM
Further feedback isnt really needed. Its a terrible idea. Dont believe me? Go read a Diablo 2 forum. That game has mobs called, wait for it, Champions. With randomly spawned effects.
I think it'd be a fine idea for 10% of monsters in most dungeons to be tougher variants with special powers, but not as a global thing. Instead a designer would be assigned to work over a certain area (like Tangleroot or Shavarath) and figure out 2-4 upgraded versions of regular monsters. The key is that the new monsters are planned by an intelligent person who considered the whole context of the quest, and aren't just stamped out by computer.


When creating the upgraded versions, do not simply add passive stats to the enemy (although higher hp and damage are fine to start with). Instead try giving them active features, like a defense shield that lasts for 20 seconds out of 60 or a self-buff that gives greatly ramped-up damage which scales from 100% to 400% over 10 sec (and has a particle effect so players know it's coming). Take a look at LOTRO mobs; they do some of that. Plus, the upgraded monsters can have a weakness as well; probably a slower movement speed (at least to start; they can catch up later). That slower speed gives players a chance to see the special enemy and react to it, instead of being blindsided and crushed.


But you know what? Designing good upgraded Champion monsters sounds like a lot of work, and I think the designers have much higher priority tasks to handle first! Better to put this off until all heroic and epic trees are finished and balanced...

moo_cow
11-22-2014, 01:46 AM
I love the champions offensive abilities. I did EH palace of stone and ran across 20 or so of them. I think for eh, that is good for soloing. However their HP is a little lacking. I think they need either some DR, more HP, or some healing power. Perhaps the healing power that the named mobs in shroud have? That way it forces players to pull and work them down.

Also out of the 20, none spawned a chest.

I believe the chance at a chest only comes from orange named champions.

Seikojin
11-22-2014, 02:04 AM
The pathetic non-challenge of Normal is one of DDO's ongoing failures; and something that was kicked into high-gear this year when the devs changed their balance goal to make Epic Elite managable for all builds.

There's already Casual mode if someone needs everything to be easy; they need to either fix Normal to be normal, or else make Hard the default (and allow everyone to open Hard their first run). The broken Normal mode is particularly troublesome for trying to recruit a new player, because all they see is Normal and it seems broken.

Without the hard cap in place, it is impossible and bad practice to make calls about difficulty. Everything is in a flux until the hard cap is set. Now I have said time and time again that normal is or should be fine for any build and gear set, and be manageable and have a high success rate. That hard is pretty rough if you don't know what you are doing, undergeared, and some poor build decision. That Elite is pretty impossible in the same state. My characters are not top end builds, however they are pretty well balanced, so my characters tend to do just above average compared to others who know how to builds. If I say something is too easy, then you can take a bad build and live against it, or a decent build and wafflestomp all over it. I think Normal is currently fine as it is. Hard and elite need something. I think Champions is a good alternative. It is almost like selective warding.


Just no turbine. No. This is "colors having adrenaline" all over again. You cannot blanket add random spots all over the game where mobs suddenly ignore blur, displacement, fortification, and randomly hit harder.

Its not balanced. It creates the chance for dungeons to spawn with combinations that effectively put you in the position where its better to just recall out and start over than bother. How does that help anyone?

Further feedback isnt really needed. Its a terrible idea. Dont believe me? Go read a Diablo 2 forum. That game has mobs called, wait for it, Champions. With randomly spawned effects. That are *notorious* for creating combinations where you just portal out to reroll it and go back in.

Its already been done. Its already been tested. Its flawed. And its no different here.

You want to have it be "only dungeons lv26-30" thats a step in the right direction. You want to limit it to effects which just buff the mob fine. Having a named randomly spawn with say 75 prr/mrr, but then drop a chest, okay fine. That doesnt screw over anyones character, just makes a random fighter harder but rewards you.

But having ALL dungeons randomly have a chance for buffs which defeat ALL of a characters mode of defense... its just a bad idea. And it was a bad idea before (random adrenaline). And it was a bad idea before that (Diablo). And I cant even believe Im having to post to say that. You want to walk into tomb of the shadow knight and have orange named pop which ignore fortification? Yea no thanks. Ever. No random chest vendor trash is worth that stress added to the game. Period. Why isnt this self evident to anyone over there?

Clearly you haven't went against these champions. They are not that strong. What they currently do is random dots and have 10% more HP it seems. I would like a full group to see if the champions scale up. Which I hope they do. The D2 reference you make is flawed: champions there were one of the most loved aspects of mob packs. Same with D3. If you don't want to fight the champion, don't. Just keep runnin from it. :)


I believe the chance at a chest only comes from orange named champions.

Ahh, makes sense.


So are the champions in all quests or only the new ones?

I'm also curious if these champions are randomly selected from all mobs in a quest, randomly selected from specific mobs chosen in each quest, or if specific mobs in a quest will always be champions on Hard an Elite.

They are in all quests. Any mob can be a champion (as well as npc mobs, like inactive kobolds, or your own shadow helpers, maybe even summons).

Oxarhamar
11-22-2014, 02:14 AM
I love the champions offensive abilities. I did EH palace of stone and ran across 20 or so of them. I think for eh, that is good for soloing. However their HP is a little lacking. I think they need either some DR, more HP, or some healing power. Perhaps the healing power that the named mobs in shroud have? That way it forces players to pull and work them down.

Also out of the 20, none spawned a chest.

Making mobs more dangerous through offensive abilities is fun. Pouring on more and more HP just to draw out the fight for no reason is boring.

Think EE Luggan the Cudgeler, EE Nightcrawler...Yawn

gwonbush
11-22-2014, 02:21 AM
The bonuses the champions get is randomized. Sometimes they get abilities such as Absorb:Bludgeon (or some other damage type), which can make them significantly harder to kill if it is your main damage type. It makes that type do somewhere around 1/2 to 1/3 of its normal damage.

IronClan
11-22-2014, 02:29 AM
Just no turbine. No. This is "colors having adrenaline" all over again. You cannot blanket add random spots all over the game where mobs suddenly ignore blur, displacement, fortification, and randomly hit harder.

Its not balanced. It creates the chance for dungeons to spawn with combinations that effectively put you in the position where its better to just recall out and start over than bother. How does that help anyone?

Further feedback isnt really needed. Its a terrible idea. Dont believe me? Go read a Diablo 2 forum. That game has mobs called, wait for it, Champions. With randomly spawned effects. That are *notorious* for creating combinations where you just portal out to reroll it and go back in.

That's where the idea comes from doubtless, Diablo has a long history of memorable random affix bosses that create challenge and unpredictability. They also create stories and fun (and apparently complaints from people who want everything to be predictable and boring). I mean there are always people who do things the most simplistic way, but you can't shape a game around them.

Wizza
11-22-2014, 04:56 AM
Can we know the complete list of buffs that they can get?
Can we know how many buffs EACH MOB can get MAX?
Do the chests have Special loot table?

IronClan
11-22-2014, 05:15 AM
A suggestion; to keep the people who can't hack any change in routine from objecting to much, perhaps champions that have chests should have a special loot table?

Maybe double normal drop rates for store items, and tomes that are level appropriate for the content they are in?

nibel
11-22-2014, 05:35 AM
If you've been questing on Lamannia, we'd love to get your feedback on something new that's been added to Update 24 in our most recent build: Monster Champions! From the Release Notes:

I have not played any dungeon on Lamaland (I don't like to ruin my surprise on live), but as someone who advocated for this feature for years, thank you.

Just one question: Does this mean Epic Ward will be going away on EH/EE as well to give us chances to use charms and stat damage as actual tactics again (being replaced by the Champion mechanic), or the Champion mechanic is on top of the already existant epic ward?

Also, the difference between Hard and Elite is more chance at champions, better champion buffs, or both?

Lonnbeimnech
11-22-2014, 05:38 AM
Considering how ubiquitous magic is in this campaign setting, and how geared to the teeth the players are. It always seemed strange to go up against mobs that were higher level, but had no magic gear themselves. So I think this is a great move.


They should get a random selection of many buffs, not all of them at once.

vorpal, heavy fort, displacement, incorporeal, true seeing, ghostbane, the ability to heal themselves, improved evasion, +20 on their saves, fom, 100 prr/mrr. manyshot, fighter haste boost.

Would be great if mobs pulled out an improved disruption mace when they see a pale master coming, or a banishing long bow when they see a fire elemental sorc.

Lonnbeimnech
11-22-2014, 07:21 AM
Just no turbine. No. This is "colors having adrenaline" all over again. You cannot blanket add random spots all over the game where mobs suddenly ignore blur, displacement, fortification, and randomly hit harder.

Its not balanced. It creates the chance for dungeons to spawn with combinations that effectively put you in the position where its better to just recall out and start over than bother. How does that help anyone?

Further feedback isnt really needed. Its a terrible idea. Dont believe me? Go read a Diablo 2 forum. That game has mobs called, wait for it, Champions. With randomly spawned effects. That are *notorious* for creating combinations where you just portal out to reroll it and go back in.

Its already been done. Its already been tested. Its flawed. And its no different here.

You want to have it be "only dungeons lv26-30" thats a step in the right direction. You want to limit it to effects which just buff the mob fine. Having a named randomly spawn with say 75 prr/mrr, but then drop a chest, okay fine. That doesnt screw over anyones character, just makes a random fighter harder but rewards you.

But having ALL dungeons randomly have a chance for buffs which defeat ALL of a characters mode of defense... its just a bad idea. And it was a bad idea before (random adrenaline). And it was a bad idea before that (Diablo). And I cant even believe Im having to post to say that. You want to walk into tomb of the shadow knight and have orange named pop which ignore fortification? Yea no thanks. Ever. No random chest vendor trash is worth that stress added to the game. Period. Why isnt this self evident to anyone over there?
The big difference between this and the colors having adrenaline is that colors was a past life feat that you had to grind out a ton of xp to make your enemies stronger, which made no sense.

This is hard being a bit harder, and elite being harder still. It's a good move.

Loromir
11-22-2014, 07:47 AM
I like this idea...but there are too many of them. Not that it makes it harder, but a champion should be a more rare occurrence. I ran the fashion show and probably saw about 30-40 champions. It probably should have been more like 5-10 champions (or less). Champions just seemed too common.

Also...since I'm suggesting fewer champions, each one should be buffed even more. Make each champion that much more dangerous.


Finally give a small amount of XP for killing a champion based on CR.

So to sum up...there should be fewer and they should be more dangerous.

SirShen
11-22-2014, 07:57 AM
If you've been questing on Lamannia, we'd love to get your feedback on something new that's been added to Update 24 in our most recent build: Monster Champions! From the Release Notes:

Im not sure i like this,

Did Tide Turns Twice on Epic Hard - one run i had about 5 Monster Champions but run went fine. Second run i got killed by a Monster Champion because it was doing posion damage over time (even on my WF) and it had 3 other Champion Buffs - so a total of 4 buffs. The others on the first run only had 2 buffs.

Some of the buffs i seen on both runs.

All get this one, Champion - Damage Boost - I deal extra damage.

Champion on hit damage over time ELECTRIC.
Champion on hit SONIC - My attacks deal extra damage.
Champion on hit damage over time ACID.
Champion - True Sight
Champion on hit - SLOW DEBUFF. (The was a pain, all spells that hit me also slowed me)
Champion on hit - BLUDGEON.
Champion on hit damage over time POSION.

On chests dropped on any of them.

So it random what monster gets these buff and the amount of buffs it gets.

fmalfeas
11-22-2014, 08:10 AM
Dear Devs,

I love this concept. There will be naysayers who don't want their xp/min zergruns messed up...but I say ignore them.

However...Could we get an idea what the range of buffs these champs can get is? The reason I ask is cases like pale masters who are heavily, heavily disrupted by Death Ward (and Epic Ward can give them enough trouble as is). There are others, but that is the most glaring, unless there's elemental immunities in that list...in which case we really do need an outcry for savant sorcs (if a blackbone skeleton got electric or acid immunity, or a lich or death knight got fire or acid, that's a huge, huge honking deal. Same with wisps.) Just pointing that out.

Overall, I really do like it. And the bonus fort bypass...hey, it makes the bonus fortification on item (above 100%), and for undead forms/elemental forms/warforged and bladeforged a meaningful thing.

Seriously, there's a stream of people who post about how things are too easy, so champs boosting diff on hard and elite and EH and EE? Good. The fact that they're random...even better. Disrupts metagaming. If you want to get sadistic without getting class-breaking, you could also do things like -

Champion Buff: Brilliant Energy - This enemy has a Brilliant Energy weapon. PRR and AC do not apply. MRR and Light Resist do.
Champion Buff: Positive Energy Plane Conduit - This enemy has a direct link to the Positive Energy Plane. They heal 6d6 (or something of that nature) HP every 10 seconds, and remove all negative levels and ability damage when this occurs.

Perhaps put very special buffs like that on a table that prevents them from piling up on a mob, turning a trashmob into a TPK machine.

As for complaints about True Seeing - Have you been to Thunderholme, guys? Where the necros buff the dead dorfs with it? True Seeing shows up often enough that if blur/displacement is the lynchpin of your defenses, then you need to diversify. Drop a cloud spell if you *must* have a Concealment chance. True Seeing can't stop that, and Stinking Cloud clickies aren't that rare, and Obscuring Mist should be really easy to UMD.

Ainlaen
11-22-2014, 08:32 AM
Overall, I really do like it. And the bonus fort bypass...hey, it makes the bonus fortification on item (above 100%), and for undead forms/elemental forms/warforged and bladeforged a meaningful thing.


Let me make one things clear about the fort bypass: It bypasses ALL fort. I was running on a WF with 215% fortification and I still got crit.

Saekee
11-22-2014, 08:33 AM
The buffs are too individualistic. The Champion needs to have buffs that affect his or her gang around them! The others are inspired and fight by their leader. Also, once the Champion dies, the others receive a moral loss and hence debuff. This would be better for role playing/immersion--you take out the leader first.

For example, buffs to those around: various elemental absorption; moral boost to hit/damage (especially the former); immunity to fear; boost to saves; etc. The bard stuff can serve as inspiration.

Debuffs on death of champion: strength sapping; shaken; curse; fear spell cast (they must save--it would be funny if some run away while others stand their ground); etc.

Full disclosure: Please note that I did not playtest this new element; my suggestions are based upon others' feedback here and what Cordovan posted.
Thanks.







note: I tried to find a quick image off of the internet here. The 'leader of the pack' finds were like 3wolf tshirts and 'alpha males' were a shocking homoerotic assortment.

davmuzl
11-22-2014, 09:13 AM
The idea sounds good to me. Having more variaty is great and having more challenge also sounds great.
I guess the number of champions we are currently having on lammania will not translate to the live servers?

What you have to make sure:
The challenge that is added by these champions should affect all classes/builds in a similar way. The first thing I did when I saw one of the champion was to check what his buffs were and then I switched to my bow and manyshoted him to death. It would be very sad if this would become the way to go for dealing with the champions and overall the champions should be harder to kill than other monsters.
This is a great opportunity to give enemies attacks that can be avoided by reacting to the enemy. Just giving them a little more damage (so far I didn't see anything that forced me to change my playstyle) or damage that is unpredictable and random (like the boot energy burst) won't add to a good experience. The mod-deathknights adrenaline look like I step in the right direction to me- they give a warning before their damage bonus and that's great.
They should not appear everywhere and instead be restricted to areas where nothing special is happening otherwise.
The buffs should vary depending on what "monster" has been buffed. It doesn't make sense if a caster get's a buff to his melee damage.

Theolin
11-22-2014, 10:20 AM
The DOTs that some mobs were given, its a nice idea, but the stacking of up to 5 can be quite deadly very fast I was playing on hard & ran across 2 crowned sorcs that cast metorswarm at me & boom insta 2x5 stacks doing 125 points of damage each per tick .... solo ... would hate to see that scale with a full party.

Otherwise I like the concept, I do think there needs to be a lot more variety in the buffs, should add anything that can be clickied or cast.

Also I noticed that if they were crowned they seemed to have all the buffs possible I think it should be a random number of 1-5 of them for normal mobs & then 3-5 for orange named ones.


The other thing I noticed after doing about 6 dungeons was it seemed that a dungeon was slanted toward practically none or almost all orange named being crowned, may want to check the random part of random, though it was a small sample so this may or may not be true.

Quests ran (edit:hard)
LOD x2
1 run no oranges were crowned & 1 in about 20 mobs
1 run everyone was & about 1 in 5 mobs
Tyranny of Dragons New quest in ES x3
1 run no oranges were crowned & 1 in about 20 mobs
2 run every orange was & about 1 in 5 mobs

Kobalds New Ringleader
1 run every (4) orange and about 1 in 5 mobs



EDIT: Forgot to mention that this was on a toon with about 120 ac, 150 prr&mrr: see damage per tick above

terrenceknight1
11-22-2014, 11:58 AM
Having run a couple quests now, LoD on EH then VoN 3 on EE I have to say I do like the concept of these random buffs but I really do feel that they need to either:

A:Be scaled depending on party size both on-hit damage effects and number of buffs.

or, and this is my preference

B:Be rewarding to kill and by that I mean not just a chest from Orange named champs but I'm thinking X% Xp bonus at the end of the quest for every champion killed and a larger X% for Orange named champs.

I thought about this after I got hilariously wrecked by a champion beholder in the EE VoN 3 beholder room as it applied a Sonic damage dot ticking for 250'ish after resists, I've been lucky to not come across a chain missile spamming caster with on hit damage and on hit damage dots because I imagine that would end very painfully and possibly as a soul stone.

Oxarhamar
11-22-2014, 12:09 PM
Having run a couple quests now, LoD on EH then VoN 3 on EE I have to say I do like the concept of these random buffs but I really do feel that they need to either:

A:Be scaled depending on party size both on-hit damage effects and number of buffs.

or, and this is my preference

B:Be rewarding to kill and by that I mean not just a chest from Orange named champs but I'm thinking X% Xp bonus at the end of the quest for every champion killed and a larger X% for Orange named champs.

I thought about this after I got hilariously wrecked by a champion beholder in the EE VoN 3 beholder room as it applied a Sonic damage dot ticking for 250'ish after resists, I've been lucky to not come across a chain missile spamming caster with on hit damage and on hit damage dots because I imagine that would end very painfully and possibly as a soul stone.


This.

Let's not add some random Challenge without some kind of reward.

Qhualor
11-22-2014, 12:16 PM
This.

Let's not add some random Challenge without some kind of reward.

The reward is the challenge for some. For the rest it will interfere with their pace in a quest and complain.

ddorimble
11-22-2014, 12:24 PM
Let me make one things clear about the fort bypass: It bypasses ALL fort. I was running on a WF with 215% fortification and I still got crit.

That's not cool...maybe half things or quarter things, but to just completely negate it...? That's not cool at all.

Also, all the buffs people have listed are offensive...why not put in some defensive ones too? High Dodge, High Incorporeality, Massive PRR/MRR, Inflated Saves or SR, random high elemental resistance...something that could potentially stymie (but not entirely negate) anyones offensive focus.

The random offensive buffs people have stated so far just make me hear there's just more reason to "Get in that Heavy Armor and Shield and stack PRR/MRR and 60/Epic Shadowscale DR"--feel like the game has been saying that a lot recently...

Oxarhamar
11-22-2014, 12:26 PM
The reward is the challenge for some. For the rest it will interfere with their pace in a quest and complain.

Challenge without reward is pointless.
Players will just bypass these Champions if possible in most situations.



I welcome challenge but, I am not a fan of Zero reward systems.
Give us a reason to accept the Challenge.

silinteresting
11-22-2014, 12:34 PM
first off i think this is a good idea, nice one devs.

second, comon people all i see on these forums is, oh please devs
make the quests harder, do this do that etc etc and finaly they do
something to put a bit of spice in the quests and all i can read is omg
devs we should get a reward for this etc etc. OMG people get real.
you get something to make quests more fun and all you do is fecking moan
unreal lol...

to the devs this is a very good start and thankyou very much...

your friend sil :)

wiliamsane
11-22-2014, 12:43 PM
Hey , so i did little testing in LoD ... quick easy etc

Cultists and dog champions were ok (i have just instakilled them all :D so it might not be much acurate) and then i got Bastion champion .. red named dog with these bonuses: On-hit damage over time Slash , True sight and Damage boost

Character details: 20 Wizard 8 Epic Drow wearing medium armor .. so important thing is it have some prr ! (30 armor +24 item +10 necromancer enh = 64 ) 230% fort

Short version .. i got hit for 480 damage (450+ on average) non critical on character with 39% damage reduction Really ?! That is 800 damage on 0 PRR ... Colors and adrenaline dabacle anyone ? Tested this puppy on 2nd run same settings but he was not Champion ... hit for 120 + - after prr (So champion damage boost is perma adrenaline without crits (maybe .. i did have 230 fort :D ) )

I dont want to sound like coward but it was quite overkil for lvl 23 EE quest (scaled down - solo )
An oh yeah .. reward was great .. chest with Deadly 6 Natural armor 7 ml 22 cloak :mad:

here are pictures (everyone likes pictures right ? )
Normal dog: http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb450/martin5464/normaldog.jpg (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/martin5464/media/normaldog.jpg.html)

and Champion dog:http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb450/martin5464/champion.jpg (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/martin5464/media/champion.jpg.html)

Vargouille
11-22-2014, 12:50 PM
The indication that you're dealing with a champion is too easy to miss and the reward is at best trivial. At least make them worth a few thousand XP or something.

Feedback on the UI indicators (such as the crown itself) is useful. We've tried multiple different versions internally already. You are definitely intended to know that an enemy is a champion, and we can look into making that more obvious if there's most people are having trouble noticing them after understanding what they are looking for.

We're still considering possible rewards. Monster Champions are partially a balance response after we've looked closely at changes in play after Update 23. We didn't want to simply make all dungeons harder in a statistical sense (changing the % bonuses to defense or offense of players or monsters), and felt adding this kind of variety was going to be a strong improvement to the overall DDO playing experience.


I love the champions offensive abilities. I did EH palace of stone and ran across 20 or so of them. I think for eh, that is good for soloing. However their HP is a little lacking. I think they need either some DR, more HP, or some healing power. Perhaps the healing power that the named mobs in shroud have? That way it forces players to pull and work them down.

Making mobs more dangerous through offensive abilities is fun. Pouring on more and more HP just to draw out the fight for no reason is boring.

Possible buffs will likely include some defensive options, we are leaning more towards offensive buffs or non-HP buffs. That said, non-boss Monster Champions do get a "standard" hitpoint buff. Orange named minibosses get a boost as well but it's far smaller (as most orange named mobs have more "generous" statistics already).


Just no turbine. No.
(...)

Its not balanced.

We're happy to hear your detailed feedback again once you've played with them. The theoretical descriptions you argue against don't match what we or other players have seen in game.


to sum up...there should be fewer and they should be more dangerous.

vorpal, heavy fort, displacement, incorporeal, true seeing, ghostbane, the ability to heal themselves, improved evasion, +20 on their saves, fom, 100 prr/mrr. manyshot, fighter haste boost.

The buffs are too individualistic. The Champion needs to have buffs that affect his or her gang around them!

These are all great feedback, thanks! Monster Champion buffs may be expanded to other than that which is already on Lamannia.


The challenge that is added by these champions should affect all classes/builds in a similar way. The first thing I did when I saw one of the champion was to check what his buffs were and then I switched to my bow and manyshoted him to death. It would be very sad if this would become the way to go for dealing with the champions and overall the champions should be harder to kill than other monsters.
This is a great opportunity to give enemies attacks that can be avoided by reacting to the enemy. Just giving them a little more damage (so far I didn't see anything that forced me to change my playstyle) or damage that is unpredictable and random (like the boot energy burst) won't add to a good experience. The mod-deathknights adrenaline look like I step in the right direction to me- they give a warning before their damage bonus and that's great.

Noting that you did change your playstyle based on the Champion, we do expect that not every Champion should ideally be dealt with the same way. At the same time, we're explicitly trying to avoid situations that simply prevent progress. We do expect situations where a player who is paying attention can progress faster or more easily by adapting their play (possibly switching weapons or using a different set of spells, etc.)


The DOTs that some mobs were given, its a nice idea, but the stacking of up to 5 can be quite deadly very fast I was playing on hard & ran across 2 crowned sorcs that cast metorswarm at me & boom insta 2x5 stacks doing 125 points of damage each per tick .... solo ... would hate to see that scale with a full party.

Otherwise I like the concept, I do think there needs to be a lot more variety in the buffs, should add anything that can be clickied or cast.

Also I noticed that if they were crowned they seemed to have all the buffs possible I think it should be a random number of 1-5 of them for normal mobs & then 3-5 for orange named ones.

Feedback like this on specific numbers and encountered situations is great. We're happy to hear feedback on how much Shiradi-like effects should be able to stack up at one time with things like Magic Missiles.

Specific feedback on buffs that should show up more or less commonly is also great. We're currently inclined to have similar amounts of buffs for minions and orange minibosses, though the minibosses are still expected to present a tougher fight in any case (as before).

The exact buffs that can appear on orange minibosses isn't identical to the buffs that appear on minions (though there's a large overlap), and there are some buffs that only appear on Elite, not Hard.

patang01
11-22-2014, 12:56 PM
If you've been questing on Lamannia, we'd love to get your feedback on something new that's been added to Update 24 in our most recent build: Monster Champions! From the Release Notes:

I like the idea as long as they're not red named can't use tactical options on them type deals. I just loath the whole dps only all immunity silliness that have infected DDO.

Qhualor
11-22-2014, 12:58 PM
Challenge without reward is pointless.
Players will just bypass these Champions if possible in most situations.



I welcome challenge but, I am not a fan of Zero reward systems.
Give us a reason to accept the Challenge.

Like I said, some will complain if the snack at the end of the dangling string isn't to their liking. Others will welcome challenge just for challenge and for something different/random.

Keep in mind we asked for something like this.

bbqzor
11-22-2014, 01:09 PM
We're happy to hear your detailed feedback again once you've played with them. The theoretical descriptions you argue against don't match what we or other players have seen in game.

I quoted what people were stating WAS in game. The picture above even shows Trueseeing as one of the options. So I really dont see how thats "theoretical". If you want to blow it off fine. But dont act like its not accurate. Mobs that suddenly see through blur/displace, ignore your fortification, or other "character bypass" type buffs are a terrible idea to randomly add to the entire game. Against some PCs those are auto-win type conditions for the mob. Like Adrenaline was.

How hard is it to realize you should STOP using anything which can just circumvent work a player does to their guy? Adrenaline shortcut past player defenses by being too large and sudden to avoid. Random TS mobs really hurt dragonmark elves, people who craft shroud clickies, etc. Understand that for them, the patch note will read "mobs at random now wholly invalidate your character feat and item choices that you worked for" because thats what it does. Fort ignoring mobs can get random crits against anyone, and while not as bad as the first two (rog mobs already do this) at lower levels that can easily mean a boss you just shouldnt have to deal with... an ogre with this can easily be too much to deal with for non vets trying to level up.

You asked for feedback, there it is. Limiting it to upper end areas where players are better able to cope with random "bad combos" and using buffs which dont automatically invalidate character choices will help. I would suggest taking that to heart. Or youll get a lot of rage threads about it later as people slowly realize that every heroic life they run into the auto crit troll named or the trueseeing level drain specter or whatever, its just not stuff people are going to enjoy dealing with when a bad combo comes up and either slows their roll or worse forces a dungeon reset. Your call, shrug. It could be fun, but this isnt it.

patang01
11-22-2014, 01:13 PM
We're still considering possible rewards. Monster Champions are partially a balance response after we've looked closely at changes in play after Update 23. We didn't want to simply make all dungeons harder in a statistical sense (changing the % bonuses to defense or offense of players or monsters), and felt adding this kind of variety was going to be a strong improvement to the overall DDO playing experience.
Champions in Diablo are rewarding and exciting to fight. Random loot trash is not. For me this smells like the bosses in the crystal cove wilderness area where random red bosses drops 'gems'. You're basically hammering a red named for 3 minutes and get nada. There's no worse way then to unexcite players to even bother. I like the idea and I don't mind challenge, as long as we don't get champions on overdrive where we run into a dungeon and suddenly hit 15. My suggestion, add checkbox when you enter and pick difficulty. Click for champions and have the quest seed with an appropriate amount. Make it a choice and a challenge. I would most likely want it each time, unless I'm pressed for playtime and just want to get some xp leveling done.


Possible buffs will likely include some defensive options, we are leaning more towards offensive buffs or non-HP buffs. That said, non-boss Monster Champions do get a "standard" hitpoint buff. Orange named minibosses get a boost as well but it's far smaller (as most orange named mobs have more "generous" statistics already).
Please don't add silly adrenaline buffs. Or attacks that hits for 800 HP. That's not a challenge. That's a hit or don't get hit silliness.

Merlin-ator
11-22-2014, 01:21 PM
NOTE: I have not playtested this, this response is based on reading the feedback of others.


Not a terrible idea, but execution sounds like it needs work. For one thing, some quests are almost never run, practically necessitating soloing. This sounds like it may make soloing some Heroic Elite or Epic Hard nearly impossible thanks to a bad roll on the RNG. Also, there are too many champions - This shouldn't be more than two to three times per quest, for a the longest quest in the game. Shorter quests should only spawn a champion rarely. If they're close to bosses or minibosses in power, they should be spaced accordingly, give XP, and drop appropriate loot. Appropriate loot could be either be using the same loot table as the endchest (with the same chance at a named item form that quest) OR a stacking +1 or +2 to the loot level for that chest, when compared to the loot level of the endchest (without a chance at named items).

A very careful look should be taken at champions in low-level Heroic quests - Players have less tricks to deal with these guys. Vets may be able to adapt, but a group of lowbie noobs will have a very tough time. All buffs (of this type and others) should be dispellable in some way.

Saekee suggested something to the effect of champions buffing nearby mobs, and debuffing them upon death - This is great! Kill the champion first, or kill his posse... Either choice affects resources used, which in harder quests affects completion chance.

wiliamsane
11-22-2014, 01:21 PM
Please don't add silly adrenaline buffs. Or attacks that hits for 800 HP. That's not a challenge. That's a hit or don't get hit silliness.

Too late .. check my post above last one from Vargouille

Psiandron
11-22-2014, 01:21 PM
Haven't been on Lama this time through, but would like to say that I do like the concept.

I would suggest that care should be taken in the implementation and I do think some reward is a good idea. Some chests, although I doubt that I would expect much that wasn't just vendorable, combined with a consistent xp bonus/reward would seem amenable.

SealedInSong
11-22-2014, 01:33 PM
If you've been questing on Lamannia, we'd love to get your feedback on something new that's been added to Update 24 in our most recent build: Monster Champions! From the Release Notes:

I may be the minority here, but I actually loved the Diablo 2 champion system.

CURATION
However, I do agree that they need to be curated a little bit. For instance, certain typically tough quests such as What Goes Up should probably have a cap on the number of champions that can spawn.

Devs should also consider the effect of some permutations, i.e. "fortification bypass" + "increased speed" + "increased PRR/MRR". It's one thing to have certain minibosses appear, and another thing to have an extremely hearty, speedy, hard-hitting boss chasing you into the next static boss. That's not fun, it's just cruddy.

REWARD
Personally, I think the reward is the most important thing. Most folks don't give a fig about trash loot. Others aren't merely appeased by experience.

I typically need all the experience I can get because of limited play time, and don't need any more vendor fodder. However, to balance things, I think champions should give the following:

*good to great amount of bonus xp*
*chest with chance to drop rare items from the daily dice rolls, or other unique items*

That way, people are really incentivized to kill these baddies, rather than recall out of the dungeon and reset if it's inconveniencing.

terrenceknight1
11-22-2014, 01:39 PM
One thing I'll add here is it certainly seems to be far more punishing to play a melee in these quests with champions with the majority of the mobs having increased damage and on hit damage effects, I've yet to have the misfortune of coming across one who ignores fort but I imagine it'll be a whole lot of not fun especially if paired up with enhanced damage. From a pure melee perspective these are brutal, I play a 20/8 Bladeforged Monk with 103 PRR and just over 1k health and 150ish AC so its not like I dumped survivability but man some of these champions are rough when soloing as pure melee.

Seikojin
11-22-2014, 01:40 PM
Can we know the complete list of buffs that they can get?
Can we know how many buffs EACH MOB can get MAX?
Do the chests have Special loot table?
That isn't their role. It is our task to take and update the wiki.


A suggestion; to keep the people who can't hack any change in routine from objecting to much, perhaps champions that have chests should have a special loot table?

Maybe double normal drop rates for store items, and tomes that are level appropriate for the content they are in?

I think Champions should get the named items available from that quest and have the same chance to have them drop, like the end chest. I strongly suggest this considering the only chest droppers are sometimes from orange named champions.


I have not played any dungeon on Lamaland (I don't like to ruin my surprise on live), but as someone who advocated for this feature for years, thank you.

Just one question: Does this mean Epic Ward will be going away on EH/EE as well to give us chances to use charms and stat damage as actual tactics again (being replaced by the Champion mechanic), or the Champion mechanic is on top of the already existant epic ward?

Also, the difference between Hard and Elite is more chance at champions, better champion buffs, or both?

I don't think Eward will go away. They just get buffs in addition to it.


I like this idea...but there are too many of them. Not that it makes it harder, but a champion should be a more rare occurrence. I ran the fashion show and probably saw about 30-40 champions. It probably should have been more like 5-10 champions (or less). Champions just seemed too common.

Also...since I'm suggesting fewer champions, each one should be buffed even more. Make each champion that much more dangerous.


Finally give a small amount of XP for killing a champion based on CR.

So to sum up...there should be fewer and they should be more dangerous.

I think making Champions an optional series (like Kill X champions) would be fine for exp. Have 10 tiers of it, so even the most die hard of kill camping will have something to aim for. I think the density is fine. I thought there were a lot, however it makes sense from what I have seen.


Im not sure i like this,

Did Tide Turns Twice on Epic Hard - one run i had about 5 Monster Champions but run went fine. Second run i got killed by a Monster Champion because it was doing posion damage over time (even on my WF) and it had 3 other Champion Buffs - so a total of 4 buffs. The others on the first run only had 2 buffs.

Some of the buffs i seen on both runs.

All get this one, Champion - Damage Boost - I deal extra damage.

Champion on hit damage over time ELECTRIC.
Champion on hit SONIC - My attacks deal extra damage.
Champion on hit damage over time ACID.
Champion - True Sight
Champion on hit - SLOW DEBUFF. (The was a pain, all spells that hit me also slowed me)
Champion on hit - BLUDGEON.
Champion on hit damage over time POSION.

On chests dropped on any of them.

So it random what monster gets these buff and the amount of buffs it gets.

I am fine with the buffs, and if they scale with groups, even better. I haven't had anyone group since the other day, so I cant give feedback on that yet.


The buffs are too individualistic. The Champion needs to have buffs that affect his or her gang around them! The others are inspired and fight by their leader. Also, once the Champion dies, the others receive a moral loss and hence debuff. This would be better for role playing/immersion--you take out the leader first.

For example, buffs to those around: various elemental absorption; moral boost to hit/damage (especially the former); immunity to fear; boost to saves; etc. The bard stuff can serve as inspiration.

Debuffs on death of champion: strength sapping; shaken; curse; fear spell cast (they must save--it would be funny if some run away while others stand their ground); etc.

Full disclosure: Please note that I did not playtest this new element; my suggestions are based upon others' feedback here and what Cordovan posted.
Thanks.

note: I tried to find a quick image off of the internet here. The 'leader of the pack' finds were like 3wolf tshirts and 'alpha males' were a shocking homoerotic assortment.

I think that would be awesome if champions buffed nearby mobs. However aura stacking has been known to cause lag.

Also a note: Beholders and Golems have not been championed yet. So I think that in itself is a bug.

Oxarhamar
11-22-2014, 01:44 PM
Like I said, some will complain if the snack at the end of the dangling string isn't to their liking. Others will welcome challenge just for challenge and for something different/random.

Keep in mind we asked for something like this.

No snack at the end of the string is No snack.



As others have stated Diablo series had great random Champions that dropped loot & additional XP. Those were fun and exciting not just because, they have a challenge, they also had reward.

Aelonwy
11-22-2014, 01:56 PM
Keep in mind we asked for something like this.

Not all of us. That is there is a very vocal portion on the forums screaming for challenge, I am just casual enough that I have enough challenge on my plate already, thank you very much. However, I'm flexible and willing to adapt.

Hendrik
11-22-2014, 02:00 PM
Excellent start with Champions!

Has there been any more discussion about adding some ED abilities to MOBs? Champions would be a good place to add them again.

Maybe make the addition of ED to Champs a EE only thing, with a decent chest to match the risk.

TackW5
11-22-2014, 02:01 PM
I rolled a dwarf barb who was not thoroughly planned, slotted maybe half my gear slots with things I could quickly grab quickly in the dojo, bought some elite unlocks, and headed into elite LoD at 18. I was disappointed that the barb changes were letting me roll through elite on a weak character for a while. Then, I hit two consecutive groups with 2 champions in each. The first group wore me out and I had no resources to recover before the second. So, since I think elite should kill the character with which I was running and I do not think the quest would have without the champions, all good so far.

What I would really love to see in terms of rewards would be a vendor-based system, whether new or tying into one or more current ones. Something along the lines of the Eberron tokens and fragments system is what came to mind. Normal champs "drop," i.e., notify us that we get, a small voucher and orange champs provide a larger one. You could tie this into the augment vendors, token of the 12 vendor, etc. Or, you could have a champion vendor that would let us exchange these for a variety of other reward currencies and crafting ingredients. Short one LDS from a greensteel upgrade? 1000 champion vouchers is all you need. I am not at all interested in more chests, but would love the ability to get other ingredients, even at ridiculous exchange rates.

Nascoe
11-22-2014, 02:05 PM
Well, just has a short look at what this was about - I had just ported an older 5/1 Barb/fighter over to Lamannia as a base for some testing, so I jumped into the Sunken Sewer (where you have to kill the trog that has scorpions with him).

First champion I met was a kobold warrior who had the extra damage and exta HP buff, no big deal, It added a bit of spice to look at what was thrown at me.

I met my second champion in the fight with the boss and his scorpions - the medium monstrous scorpion was a champion too, and it really got me interested, this were his buffs, or maybe perks is more appropriate:
1. damage boost - nothing interesting, a bit tougher, ok.
2. absorb bludgeon - ok, certainly makes him tougher - if I would use rat killer on him :-)
3. absorb slash - yes that one explained why my great sword was taking a lot of time to kill him (the shock II did do damage, I guess)
4. vulnerable to pierce - Oh, now this is getting interesting - that means that if I had pulled out a rapier, or a bow, I would have had an easier time.

I do have two issues with how its done - first of all, it was incredibly hard to get to see what buffs the guy had (scorpion kept burrowing, so I had to re-open and look), this might need a bit more finetuning so that you get more info when mousing over them or something like that IMO.

The second one is that the crown looks a bit cheesy for me. I would think some kind of aura / glow might be more appropriate. Or maybe something else, not sure.

What I do not get is people saying its hard to recognize which ones are champions and which not, it was completely clear to see for me.

Agree that it will need a bit of finetuning to get the amount of Champions in quests rigth (can you set it per area or individual quest?) as well as finding a good pool of buffs and balance which ones get on together (I guess the example above where absorb slash and bludgeon means extra piercing vulnerability is a good start)

Oh, and to close off the comment, the idea to have a champion work a bit like a motivator for the mobs around him sounds like a good idea, complete with the very PnP mechanic of losing morale when they get killed. If you could introduce that without a boatload of extra bugs, I would think it would really add to gameplay.

Edit - jumped into the Smugglers warehouse now with the same barb. Ran up to a kobold with extra damage and extra damage over time electric - that had me (and my hireling) down in no time - 5-17 electric per tick (I guess its about 8-20 without MRR?) and 15-19 per tick (after DR and PRR) on a lvl 5 guy adds up fast.
So yes, I do think that the exact numbers need looking into a bit

davmuzl
11-22-2014, 02:10 PM
The random offensive buffs people have stated so far just make me hear there's just more reason to "Get in that Heavy Armor and Shield and stack PRR/MRR and 60/Epic Shadowscale DR"--feel like the game has been saying that a lot recently...

Makes me feel like some champions should be able to bypass DR/epic.


Feedback on the UI indicators (such as the crown itself) is useful. We've tried multiple different versions internally already. You are definitely intended to know that an enemy is a champion, and we can look into making that more obvious if there's most people are having trouble noticing them after understanding what they are looking for.

Iirc the packs in the diablo3 show their effects over their head, which is better than having to examine the buffs to find out what they are. I thought maybe the crowns could have different colors to indicate what kind of effects the champion has.


Noting that you did change your playstyle based on the Champion, we do expect that not every Champion should ideally be dealt with the same way. At the same time, we're explicitly trying to avoid situations that simply prevent progress. We do expect situations where a player who is paying attention can progress faster or more easily by adapting their play (possibly switching weapons or using a different set of spells, etc.)

Does this mean you want the champions to have additional defenses to force us to approach a fight differently? That sounds good to me, but for a single player it might be hard to adapt because most builds only have one good way to deal damage. Also switching weapons doesn't happen much anymore since thunderforged are just overall better than everything else.

Lonnbeimnech
11-22-2014, 02:14 PM
I do have two issues with how its done - first of all, it was incredibly hard to get to see what buffs the guy had (scorpion kept burrowing, so I had to re-open and look), this might need a bit more finetuning so that you get more info when mousing over them or something like that IMO.

The second one is that the crown looks a bit cheesy for me. I would think some kind of aura / glow might be more appropriate. Or maybe something else, not sure.

What I do not get is people saying its hard to recognize which ones are champions and which not, it was completely clear to see for me.

Agree that it will need a bit of finetuning to get the amount of Champions in quests rigth (can you set it per area or individual quest?) as well as finding a good pool of buffs and balance which ones get on together (I guess the example above where absorb slash and bludgeon means extra piercing vulnerability is a good start)

Oh, and to close off the comment, the idea to have a champion work a bit like a motivator for the mobs around him sounds like a good idea, complete with the very PnP mechanic of losing morale when they get killed. If you could introduce that without a boatload of extra bugs, I would think it would really add to gameplay.
Could have the music change to this while the champion is up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLb33K8UO30

Nascoe
11-22-2014, 02:27 PM
Another thought about these champions. It really does need some kind of reward IMO.

Now, I do not think adding XP for every champion or something like that, that would feel wrong to me, as its not something that really fits DDO. But having it add to the monster manual or some kind of counter or something, not sure what.

I can imagine it might make it a fun objective to "collect" trophies/badges or whatever to say you are a "championkiller" or something.

Hm, one idea is to just add another extra XP bonus - Championslayer to the quest log/quest XP, which adds a % of the base XP for slaying X champions in a quest?

Nascoe
11-22-2014, 02:30 PM
Could have the music change to this while the champion is up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLb33K8UO30

Nice idea that :-)

dunklezhan
11-22-2014, 02:45 PM
Also, it is bad to have mechanics that only show up on Hard/Elite.

The only difference between Normal and Elite should be the stat numbers of monsters and traps... the monsters shouldn't be more numerous, use different rules, or get any new abilities (that couldn't also show up in a higher-level Normal dungeon).

Not sure I agree with all of that, but definitely some of it.

Mindlessly pumping stats is why I hated the old epics. Not that I like the new ones much better since they still have stat wards and silly things like that.

So yes - arbitrary 'special' abilities are bad. Arbitrary 'honest' buffs or giving casters different spells on hard and elite because the caster level of the mob has gone up is awesome - the first time I ran an elite quest those kobold shaman gave me a HUGE surprise, and I thought it was amazing, not 'bad'. I also agree with the other poster who said that dispel should be more useful but I suspect the coding is pretty hard.

I also have no problem with adding more mobs on hard or elite (provided DA on those settings is adjusted to cope. DA is a horrible example of an arbitrary mechanic from a gameplay point of view). In PnP one of the best things you can do to increase the challenge is add more mobs, not power up the mobs that shouldn't really be that tough (unless you're adding some shiny loot that explains why they were so tough, anyway).

fmalfeas
11-22-2014, 03:06 PM
Let me make one things clear about the fort bypass: It bypasses ALL fort. I was running on a WF with 215% fortification and I still got crit.

Wait, wait...it's fort *negation*?! In that case, devs, you need to change that. Even if you just give them 100% armor piercing. Otherwise, you'll never get people in Hard or Elite duergar quests ever again. (HEAVY PICKS AHOY!)

btolson
11-22-2014, 03:15 PM
You need to work out a way to better present details about whichever buffs the champs have active. Trying to parse the combat log in real time in an attempt to see what's going on (and effectively counter it) remains nearly impossible. Simply trying things at random is not very compelling gameplay.

This is something Diablo 2 & 3 do very well. I never have to guess at what buffs a champ is "wearing", which allows me to actively evaluate and intelligently respond to the threat they pose (which is fun).

Perhaps this can go hand in hand with a revamp of the Examination window for mobs? This game has always had the least graceful method of monitoring raid debuffs, etc that I can think of.



Reward ideas:
-place a stacking chest-bless-like effect on end-chests in the dungeon, raising the odds of getting named loot. This would be an intangible reward, likely best paired with something guaranteed.
-deposit xp gems into each partymember's inventory, giving... CR*25? xp.

Oxarhamar
11-22-2014, 03:21 PM
Not all of us. That is there is a very vocal portion on the forums screaming for challenge, I am just casual enough that I have enough challenge on my plate already, thank you very much. However, I'm flexible and willing to adapt.

And how many of that vocal potion who want more challenge without any type of reward?

I see them constantly to paraphrase... "Where is the EE loot?" Etc....

Nascoe
11-22-2014, 03:26 PM
So I did a few low lvl quests with my 5th lvl barbarian ported over to Lamannia.

I like that the effects/buffs vary quite a bit, although true seeing might be a bit too regular (just about every caster champion seemed to have it). Deathward buff for stronger bosses is fine, but not have it on everyone, blurr is a good one as well. (is Blurr and True seeing standard for every orange?)

The mechanic where the champion has absorb/DR of some damage but is vunerable to another kind is a good one too (DR/slash, bludgeon but exta pierce or absorb fire, acid but extra from cold etc).

Maybe there does need to be a bit more thought in what buffs get added for what mobs (a kobold shaman with sonic on hit, when he only casts) and I am not sure the on hit and over time on hit worked ok for throwing kobolds for example.

Again, the amount of damage done, especially with the damage over time ones needs tweaking, some seem to do far too little (fire and cold over time hit for you for 2 hp) and others too much (electric for 15-19 per tick). The extra damage ones seem to hit pretty hard as well (on this lvl) but PRR, DR help as well as just making sure you just do not get hit (dodge, AC or just killing them before they get to you).

I agree that it would really be nice if we could dispell the buffs with dispell clickies/spells, that would suddenly make this spell usefull again.

edit: by the way, are texts like "You can have the curse removed by using a Remove Curse potion, getting the Remove Curse spell cast on you, or by resting at a shrine." in our combat log (after being hit by a curse) new or have I just not been looking at my combat log enough during normal play to notice this

fmalfeas
11-22-2014, 03:31 PM
So I did a few low lvl quests with my 5th lvl barbarian ported over to Lamannia.

I like that the effects/buffs vary quite a bit, although true seeing might be a bit too regular (just about every caster champion seemed to have it). Deathward buff for stronger bosses is fine, but not have it on everyone, blurr is a good one as well.

The mechanic where the champion has absorb/DR of some damage but is vunerable to another kind is a good one too (DR/slash, bludgeon but exta pierce or absorb fire, acid but extra from cold etc).

Maybe there does need to be a bit more thought in what buffs get added for what mobs (a kobold shaman with sonic on hit, when he only casts) and I am not sure the on hit and over time on hit worked ok for throwing kobolds for example.

Again, the amount of damage done, especially with the damage over time ones needs tweaking, some seem to do far too little (fire and cold over time hit for you for 2 hp) and others too much (electric for 15-19 per tick). The extra damage ones seem to hit pretty hard as well (on this lvl) but PRR, DR help as well as just making sure you just do not get hit (dodge, AC or just killing them before they get to you).

I agree that it would really be nice if we could dispell the buffs with dispell clickies/spells, that would suddenly make this spell usefull again.

I don't think we should be able to dispel the buffs. They're champions...in a way, they're our monsterous counterparts. 'Adventurers of the monster world'. Think of the buffs as representing gear, or feats, or enhancements or ED powers they took. I do think some of those, however, should be able to be temporarily Disjoined.

In that vein, I'd like to note that it's long, long overdue to take a look at the CL caps on our dispels, devs. They're pretty worthless most of the time these days due to the CL check mechanics combined with EH and Elite/EE caster scaling mechanics.

Systern
11-22-2014, 03:35 PM
Also a note: Beholders and Golems have not been championed yet. So I think that in itself is a bug.

I just ran through eH LoD and eH Von3. The first beholder after unlocking the door was championed for me.


I've copied my dex build swashbuckler (Lv26, completionist + rogue and sorc PLs, 5 ePls). At first, I was sneaking through LoD so I would have time to identify a champion, target, examine, and read the buffs. I do have a good Hide and Move silently because of the dex build, but even then, there were fights where I had to fascinate to be able to assess how big a threat the champion was. When I got to Tahmael, I saw there was one champion: the human right in front of you as you walked in. I didn't notice that Tahmael was a champion as well. The icon could be a bit larger or more vibrant so that it stands out more.


When doing Von3, with its numerous mob spawns, it became too much of a hassle to try and assess what effects were on the champion. So I just killed them first and hoped that it didn't have an instawin effect combination.

Every champion I did check all had true-seeing. Stripping the perma-blur and displacement from my defenses, I was left thinking how my defenses relied on my PRR at this point, and while light armor is light armor, I definitely was mad that my buckler shields had no shield benefits. I also was looking at all these mobs with epic ward and was hating that charms and stat damage is removed from my arsenal to deal with them. I definitely believe that playing on elite or in higher quests will mean that there will be champions with Insta-Win combinations. A true-seeing, Adrenaline, armor-piercing champion will just one shot this bard, and that's not fun; doesn't feel good; and doesn't excite me as a player. I don't know if the buffs are all just in one table, and you take x number of them at random, or hopefully they're in 3 tables: "common effects", "mutually exclusive" (to prevent insta-win combos), and "vulnerabilities" (I saw that Gnomon had a huge list of effects, including electric vulnerability).


Perhaps since I was doing lower level Epic Hard quests, it still turned into a meh experience. Perhaps EE quests would keep my vigilance up. Champions were inconsistently noticed. They're a pain to determine their threat level in moderate to large spawn groups. While Marideth, Tahmael, and Gnomon were all champions, I got a chest from Marideth only. With 1 trash item in it (and tools, gems, and plat). Perhaps these chests could have an increased chance to drop store items: gold seal pots to a +x hearts on the EEs or something (based on CR of champion). Nothing bank breaking, but still something better than vendor loot for an old player base that's mostly plat capped. Or like a 30% chance from an item from the gold roll table...

Not a bad concept, but the execution needs some refinement.

Nascoe
11-22-2014, 03:50 PM
As highlighted by the poster above, you will need to tweak the tables to avoid unwanted combainations. And that means both too strong ones, as well as eliminating nonsensical ones (yeah, had my first champion who was both vulnerable to bludgeon AND had absorb bludgeon, ehm, rigth).

And True seeing and death ward seem to be a bit too common, maybe they should be more bound to a theme or specific mob / race / class or something

Nascoe
11-22-2014, 03:54 PM
I don't think we should be able to dispel the buffs. They're champions...in a way, they're our monsterous counterparts. 'Adventurers of the monster world'. Think of the buffs as representing gear, or feats, or enhancements or ED powers they took. I do think some of those, however, should be able to be temporarily Disjoined.

In that vein, I'd like to note that it's long, long overdue to take a look at the CL caps on our dispels, devs. They're pretty worthless most of the time these days due to the CL check mechanics combined with EH and Elite/EE caster scaling mechanics.

Hm, you do have a point. But on the other hand, many of us use clickies, potions and spells to provide spell absorption, displacement/blurr, deathward and things like that. I think that at least some of the buffs should be dispellable (meaning a revamp of DCs/spell effect vs CL too)

Aelonwy
11-22-2014, 04:16 PM
And how many of that vocal potion who want more challenge without any type of reward?

I see them constantly to paraphrase... "Where is the EE loot?" Etc....

Honestly, I would have no idea how to quantify the portion of the forums asking for challenge, the portion of that portion asking for loot commensurate with challenge, or XP commensurate with challenge, or challenge for the sake of bragging or challenge for the sake of testing their limits. I never kept tabs or tallies. I just know that I personally was not asking for any more challenge than we already have, and the only changes in loot I've asked for is a return to BTA (yeah, yeah I know I'm in the forum minority here) and a return of all the prefixes and suffixes on random loot from Update 14. If I were allowed to purely guess (totally fabricated numbers), then I would guess 10% of those asking for challenge just want challenge, 20% want challenge for bragging rights and 70% want challenge for loot they can charge an arm and a leg or firstborn child for on the ASAH. There is nothing to back up these numbers they are just my gut feeling based on how many times I've seen MOAR challenge threads and how they usually devolve into the ulterior motives of MOAR BETTERZ loot and I AM SO UBERZ - No one can do what I do as fast as I do, solo with my hands tied behind my back and blindfolded. But keep in mind I don't pay alot of attention to these threads or these posters so my guesses are probably way off.

arkonas
11-22-2014, 04:24 PM
I rolled a dwarf barb who was not thoroughly planned, slotted maybe half my gear slots with things I could quickly grab quickly in the dojo, bought some elite unlocks, and headed into elite LoD at 18. I was disappointed that the barb changes were letting me roll through elite on a weak character for a while. Then, I hit two consecutive groups with 2 champions in each. The first group wore me out and I had no resources to recover before the second. So, since I think elite should kill the character with which I was running and I do not think the quest would have without the champions, all good so far.

What I would really love to see in terms of rewards would be a vendor-based system, whether new or tying into one or more current ones. Something along the lines of the Eberron tokens and fragments system is what came to mind. Normal champs "drop," i.e., notify us that we get, a small voucher and orange champs provide a larger one. You could tie this into the augment vendors, token of the 12 vendor, etc. Or, you could have a champion vendor that would let us exchange these for a variety of other reward currencies and crafting ingredients. Short one LDS from a greensteel upgrade? 1000 champion vouchers is all you need. I am not at all interested in more chests, but would love the ability to get other ingredients, even at ridiculous exchange rates.

i love the idea of champions, but limit them in short quests and maybe a few in longer ones like what goes up. I think their buffs should be limited to a point. Anyways reason why im replying to this person is because this idea is awesome. I would love to have a currency system that deals with champions. you have a vendor in eveningstar and ebberron. give us various goodies and yes if you have to put a rare item in there make it expensive. epic elite should drop the highest amount while hard is minimal etc. this would give every a reward system and actually try to do them.

rift with their latest expansion had a plane of water and earrings added to the game. you could get either for free if you bought the expansion or you could unlock it by paying i think 100k void stones. i might be wrong on the number. my point is that there were things that you could get by earning it. hell all of their events they have currency and different items. what would be in our vendor that could be anything really. i just like the idea of doing something and then earning whatever the reward maybe.

Zaloric
11-22-2014, 04:54 PM
Tested Friends in Low Places on Epic Elite. The first orange-named mob was a champion in 9 out of 10 instances. Based on this and other data, I would guess that the chance for an orange-named mob to become a champion is over 66% and closer to 100%.

Friendly NPCs can also become champions, however, which has interesting results. A few of the "Native Wheloon" defenders were champions, for example. In a few instances, the "lone dog" watching over his fallen master was also a champion, as were a few of the nearby rats, which is sort of like wandering around King's Forest and encountering squirrel champions. This is probably bugged and needs to be looked at.

LeoLionxxx
11-22-2014, 05:18 PM
What I would really love to see in terms of rewards would be a vendor-based system, whether new or tying into one or more current ones. Something along the lines of the Eberron tokens and fragments system is what came to mind. Normal champs "drop," i.e., notify us that we get, a small voucher and orange champs provide a larger one. You could tie this into the augment vendors, token of the 12 vendor, etc. Or, you could have a champion vendor that would let us exchange these for a variety of other reward currencies and crafting ingredients. Short one LDS from a greensteel upgrade? 1000 champion vouchers is all you need. I am not at all interested in more chests, but would love the ability to get other ingredients, even at ridiculous exchange rates.

I think you're on to something here. It's bugged me a little that in order to farm out ingredients for crafting stuff, we need to run and farm the same quests/raids over and over and over and over. I'm thinking that:

When a champion monster is defeated, each player receives a champion token. If the monster is a boss champion, they receive 5 instead.

These Champion tokens can be turned in for nearly any other crafting material. Green steel ingredients, dragon scales, power cells, maybe even tokens of the 12; perhaps they can even be liquidated into platinum, or Astral Shards (that last one may not be realistic). Different ingredients would cost different amounts based on rarity (not specifically level, since In don't believe you encounter more champions in higher level quests).

Instead of farming specific quests, people would farm regular quests for monster champion to get them materials.

Think of this not as a new crafting system, but as an extension on all the others.

LeoLionxxx
11-22-2014, 05:24 PM
Tested Friends in Low Places on Epic Elite. The first orange-named mob was a champion in 9 out of 10 instances. Based on this and other data, I would guess that the chance for an orange-named mob to become a champion is over 66% and closer to 100%.

Friendly NPCs can also become champions, however, which has interesting results. A few of the "Native Wheloon" defenders were champions, for example. In a few instances, the "lone dog" watching over his fallen master was also a champion, as were a few of the nearby rats, which is sort of like wandering around King's Forest and encountering squirrel champions. This is probably bugged and needs to be looked at.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGFytIl0sjs

Nah, it's fine.

Urjak
11-22-2014, 05:48 PM
Some feedback from soloing the new quests on EH:

Overall:
I think there are slightly too many, with slightly too weak buffs:
.) In my opinion running into a champion should be more of an "whoa - there s a champion - watch out!" moment ... in my testing it was more like "okay were are the championS in this group of mobs? ..." because I rarely encountered bigger spawns of mobs without at least one champion.
.) On the other hand you might want to increase the buffs - especially of the non-orange-named champions a little - also a SLIGHT hp buff would be good - atm they simply die way too fast to notice a difference (most of the time)

Orange named champions:
.) I ran into an orange named champion in that new "Palace" quest - and dude that thing hit hard - at least 300 damage a hit on epic hard O_O - I was already half asleep because the rest of the quest was terribly easy - so that gave me a little adrenalin surge as I went ***??? half my hp gone in one second??? ... for my ranged toon it was still no problem - kite - heal - kite - kill ... on a melee however ... seemed a little rough for epic hard ...

Rewards:
I really gave this a little thought while I sleepwalked through the new quests (ya I know I shoulda done EE^^ - but wanted to explore the quests first). IMO it would be awesome to introduce *some* new ingredient that then could be used for *some* new crafting system (or maybe for an expanded Cannith Crafting system? *_*) that was only available from champions ... this way fighting champions would ALWAYS make sense ... I kinda tried to compare it to other system and rewards:
.) Treasure chests: Makes sense on low and lower mid levels - no one care about random loot at or near cap - and as I overheard a conversation about loot level of such chests - it really does not matter - most level 25+ players and TRs would care about a level 10 chest about as much as about a level 10000000 chest as the only interesting thing in it is the guild renown anyhow ...
.) XP: There is already plenty of xp available - additionally I can imagine it would be a horrendous amount of work to fine-tune all possible champions' xp amount.
.) Named Items: Would require tons of dev-time as we would literally need hundreds of new items for all level ranges, types, ... => no way
.) Commendations (of any kind) / seeds / epic token (fragments): These would all only work at epic levels and as I understood it this feature should work in heroic AND epic levels

Maybe we could get something similar to the way Challenge Crafting works ... or maybe we could finally expand Cannith Crafting to epic levels - and all the ingredients for the new awesome recipes would only be available from champions .... and the 10 new and 5 upgraded-to-epic-level raids (one can still dream ...)

Ainlaen
11-22-2014, 05:49 PM
A bit of info on how common champions are in EE: Tonight I did Legend Revisited, Friends in Low Places, and Trial By Fire. Just about every pack of mobs in these quests would include one or two champions. Every single orange-named, 7 in total, was a champion. Based on what I've seen in those and a couple other quests, I'd guess that normal mobs have around a 20 percent chance to spawn as champions. Orange named mobs seem to have at least a 75% chance to be champions.

Also, you can add my name to the list of people who think the dot on hit effect needs to be reworked. I took over 600 damage from one force missile cast from one of the vampires in Legend Revisited, as each missile proced a stack of the dot and each stack inflicted damage on application. Seemed really excessive.

Zaloric
11-22-2014, 05:53 PM
Feedback on the UI indicators (such as the crown itself) is useful. We've tried multiple different versions internally already. You are definitely intended to know that an enemy is a champion, and we can look into making that more obvious if there's most people are having trouble noticing them after understanding what they are looking for.
The over-head crown is very easy to miss, especially in Wheloon, where you are dealing with swarms of 8 or more mobs. In addition to the crown, I would like to see a full-body aura similar to Fire Shield or to what the Death Knights have in Mark of Death.

For monstrous mobs (i.e. non-humans), however, a size increase would be even better. A 10-foot-tall Wheloon rogue is absurd, but gigantic dretches and spiders make perfect sense. The alternative is having 1 dretch or spider in a pack of 8 with unexplained super-powers, despite being indistinguishable from its comrades; that, to me, is absurd. But if that one dretch or spider is five times larger than the others, then you can easily recognize right away not just that it is the leader of the pack but that it is much stronger and more dangerous than the others.

Monkey-Boy
11-22-2014, 05:57 PM
Got hit for 1000+ damage by one of these, could make things interesting when this goes live.

Oxarhamar
11-22-2014, 06:16 PM
The over-head crown is very easy to miss, especially in Wheloon, where you are dealing with swarms of 8 or more mobs. In addition to the crown, I would like to see a full-body aura similar to Fire Shield or to what the Death Knights have in Mark of Death.

For monstrous mobs (i.e. non-humans), however, a size increase would be even better. A 10-foot-tall Wheloon rogue is absurd, but gigantic dretches and spiders make perfect sense. The alternative is having 1 dretch or spider in a pack of 8 with unexplained super-powers, despite being indistinguishable from its comrades; that, to me, is absurd. But if that one dretch or spider is five times larger than the others, then you can easily recognize right away not just that it is the leader of the pack but that it is much stronger and more dangerous than the others.

This

Ayseifn
11-22-2014, 06:30 PM
Would it be possible to to make all champions give guild renown as long as they're in the right level range?

LeoLionxxx
11-22-2014, 06:53 PM
Would it be possible to to make all champions give guild renown as long as they're in the right level range?

Nice idea, gives a special boost to renown like when you defeat a red or orange name.

Shouldn't be the only reward thoguh (if that's what you were suggesting), since not everyone is in a guild.

Scrabbler
11-22-2014, 07:20 PM
Feedback on the UI indicators (such as the crown itself) is useful. We've tried multiple different versions internally already. You are definitely intended to know that an enemy is a champion, and we can look into making that more obvious if there's most people are having trouble noticing them after understanding what they are looking for.
The crown graphic looks bad (because it's non-diegetic) and although it's fairly prominent onscreen, it's very hard to tell what monster it's attached to. Especially hard because monsters are often in fast-moving groups with different sizes and head heights (or even no head at all). There are also kinds of monsters whose heads are mainly off the top of the screen.


Monster Champions are partially a balance response after we've looked closely at changes in play after Update 23.
I had suspected that could be going on. Various designers messed up this year by adding player power with ships, Swashbuckler, PRR, Holy Sword, and MRR, so now they're trying to raise the difficulty again.



We didn't want to simply make all dungeons harder in a statistical sense (changing the % bonuses to defense or offense of players or monsters), and felt adding this kind of variety was going to be a strong improvement to the overall DDO playing experience.
I haven't fought Monster Champions for too long yet, but so far it seems that the uniform statistical buff would've been better than this kind of variety. The scenario I see happening is I'm going along just fine and then suddenly and surprisingly die without much time to do anything about it. Most champions don't do that, but some do. Should I (as a Barb melee) be learning to scan for crown icons and then run away from them, killing every other monster in the area and waiting for my cooldowns to refresh before going back to fight the champion guy?

A particular problem with random Champions is how it interacts with non-uniform dungeon difficulty. In many dungeons, such as Terminal Delirium or New Invasion, there are many easy fights and just a few dangerous ones (often a locked-room ambush). If the Champs happen to spawn in the fights that were high-danger anyway, then the players are really dead. While if they spawn in normal places then it's not really any harder. Almost all monsters give you time to look at them beforehand and decide what do to... but sometimes they don't. (That's part of why I say this kind of mechanic should be added to quests individually, with a designer deciding on a case by case basis)


A note about game design principles: Adding "variety" to combat outcomes is to the advantage of the side less favored to win, meaning that it benefits the monsters.



Possible buffs will likely include some defensive options, we are leaning more towards offensive buffs or non-HP buffs.
How about making their offensive bonuses not activate immediately, like ramping up with a few hits or when the creature's hp is below 66%?



The exact buffs that can appear on orange minibosses isn't identical to the buffs that appear on minions (though there's a large overlap), and there are some buffs that only appear on Elite, not Hard.
Any mechanic that only appears on Elite or Hard is bad.

There is already too much of a difficulty ramp between Normal to Hard; you shouldn't make it worse. Normal is supposed to be the place where you learn how to play better to handle Hard, so playing on Normal should let you learn to recognize and handle Monster Champions!

J-mann
11-22-2014, 07:39 PM
Got hit for 1000+ damage by one of these, could make things interesting when this goes live.

I like the idea of the system, but it needs LOTS of work before the devs decide to implement it. Firstly, they system SCREAMS anti-melee right now. Most of the buffs are baised on getting hit, or doing more damage, and what class arch type does that affect the most by far? Melee. Lets look at some of the ones mentioned:

True seeing; hurts as a caster/ranged, not really a deal breaker though as you can KITE (which looks to be, once again, the best defense in the game), as a melee, there goes one layer of your defense
Fort bypass: sure it can suck as a caster/ranged, but you can kite. Melee..... welp I hope the number gods love you or you might get one shot.
Damage/dot on hit: once again, casters/ranged kite.... melee just have to eat it. And if the devs insist on letting it stack? Well sucks to be you melee
increased base damage: Kite.... once again the answer to EVERYTHING. Melee, well you guys just eat it
damage immunities: well this is a little more balanced, fair enough.
Slow on hit: I personally would call this a wash because slowing a melee sucks almost as much as on a ranged/caster, but I might be able to be persuaded that this is more anti ranged


So after all the effort devs went to try and bring melee back onto par with ranged.... all of a sudden were back to square one, where because of the AI mechanics are punishing to melee and a minor hindrance to range. Maybe the devs need to look into spell reflects, deflect arrows, mantel/greater mantel, and god knows what else. Honestly I cannot think of a mechanic that is offensive that would punish ranged at least AS MUCH as it does melee. Maybe a spells/abilities that have minimum ranges? Maybe damage boosts that are dependent on the distance from the champ?

Oxarhamar
11-22-2014, 07:53 PM
I like the idea of the system, but it needs LOTS of work before the devs decide to implement it. Firstly, they system SCREAMS anti-melee right now. Most of the buffs are baised on getting hit, or doing more damage, and what class arch type does that affect the most by far? Melee. Lets look at some of the ones mentioned:

True seeing; hurts as a caster/ranged, not really a deal breaker though as you can KITE (which looks to be, once again, the best defense in the game), as a melee, there goes one layer of your defense
Fort bypass: sure it can suck as a caster/ranged, but you can kite. Melee..... welp I hope the number gods love you or you might get one shot.
Damage/dot on hit: once again, casters/ranged kite.... melee just have to eat it. And if the devs insist on letting it stack? Well sucks to be you melee
increased base damage: Kite.... once again the answer to EVERYTHING. Melee, well you guys just eat it
damage immunities: well this is a little more balanced, fair enough.
Slow on hit: I personally would call this a wash because slowing a melee sucks almost as much as on a ranged/caster, but I might be able to be persuaded that this is more anti ranged


So after all the effort devs went to try and bring melee back onto par with ranged.... all of a sudden were back to square one, where because of the AI mechanics are punishing to melee and a minor hindrance to range. Maybe the devs need to look into spell reflects, deflect arrows, mantel/greater mantel, and god knows what else. Honestly I cannot think of a mechanic that is offensive that would punish ranged at least AS MUCH as it does melee. Maybe a spells/abilities that have minimum ranges? Maybe damage boosts that are dependent on the distance from the champ?

Way to turn it into Ranged are OP and need punishment.

Oxarhamar
11-22-2014, 07:59 PM
Any mechanic that only appears on Elite or Hard is bad.

There is already too much of a difficulty ramp between Normal to Hard; you shouldn't make it worse. Normal is supposed to be the place where you learn how to play better to handle Hard, so playing on Normal should let you learn to recognize and handle Monster Champions!

Seams correct to me.

Normal no Champions learn to play.
Hard Champions learn how to play on a higher difficulty w/ Champions.
Elite highest difficulty toughest Champions.

J-mann
11-22-2014, 08:16 PM
Way to turn it into Ranged are OP and need punishment.

So its ok to be melee are op and need punishment? Any refutation of the points? No, because it is true, the mechanics are vastly more punishing to melee than to ranged, but like I said, I am unsure on how to fix this issue.

Scrabbler
11-22-2014, 08:18 PM
Normal no Champions learn to play.
How does someone learn to play against Champions when there are no Champions?



Elite highest difficulty toughest Champions.
Yes, everything is hardest on Elite. That's how Elite works; there is no need to give the Champions any more bonuses than usual for that setting.

Oxarhamar
11-22-2014, 08:27 PM
How does someone learn to play against Champions when there are no Champions?



Yes, everything is hardest on Elite. That's how Elite works; there is no need to give the Champions any more bonuses than usual for that setting.

Normal learn to play without champions just learn to play the game.

Hard learn to play vs. champions

Elite yes the hardest difficulty with the hardest champions.
(I don't think its as much about making the Elite Champions harder as making the Hard Champions fit the hard setting) some effects are probably too powerful to give to Hard mobs.

BigErkyKid
11-22-2014, 08:42 PM
Why should I fight these champions?

Aside from when you force me, I'll just try to get past them or kite them while I hit the boss or whatever I need to kill.

People play higher difficulties, IMO for different reasons:

1. The challenge and/or bragging rights : beating it once on different archetypes, but just once or a few times.

2. Rewards: better loot, better XP.

So champions without reward will just tip the balance of the payoff again towards EN zergs. Once people know they can beat the quest even with champions but the possibility of them just slows down the questing they will just chose higher difficulties even less.

I would give each one of these champions a chest. What you put on it could be open for discussion. But its not like the usual mostly trash chests would break the balance of the game. I would add chances of good drops from champion chests and then people will actively hunt them.

IronClan
11-22-2014, 08:47 PM
Players will just bypass these Champions if possible in most situations.


Some will, and who cares, let them try.

There are people playing DDO that will spend hours grinding 1 dollar worth of Turbine Points when the same amount of time pulling a shift at McDonalds would have bought them 5,000tps, and a few bucks to give to their parents for "rent".
There are people ransacking raids to the point where they will end up needing to run them twice as many times to upgrade their items because they aren't getting upgrade mats for 60% of the runs they did (Hint: runs 9 through 20).
There are people duplicating items and removing their own desire to play the game because they have nothing left to play for.
There are people who try to mitigate every challenge before they enter and turn the game into a mindless repetition.

A game should not be designed around the actions of people who are too dull to realize they're doing something dumb that is only serving to ruin their own enjoyment of the game. Those people will sort themselves out.

Oxarhamar
11-22-2014, 09:32 PM
Some will, and who cares, let them try.

There are people playing DDO that will spend hours grinding 1 dollar worth of Turbine Points when the same amount of time pulling a shift at McDonalds would have bought them 5,000tps, and a few bucks to give to their parents for "rent".
There are people ransacking raids to the point where they will end up needing to run them twice as many times to upgrade their items because they aren't getting upgrade mats for 60% of the runs they did (Hint: runs 9 through 20).
There are people duplicating items and removing their own desire to play the game because they have nothing left to play for.
There are people who try to mitigate every challenge before they enter and turn the game into a mindless repetition.

A game should not be designed around the actions of people who are too dull to realize they're doing something dumb that is only serving to ruin their own enjoyment of the game. Those people will sort themselves out.

While I agree with your overall here, I still believe the Challenge should hold a reward for those who will face it.

Scrabbler
11-22-2014, 10:28 PM
Normal learn to play without champions just learn to play the game.
Yeah, fail. They're not learning the same game if it doesn't have Monster Champions.

The setting that's supposed to strip out danger and let you just admire the scenery is called "Casual".

Seikojin
11-22-2014, 10:41 PM
Leo made a potential loot incentive from the champions:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/452142-Champion-Tokens

I like them as they are, the crown could be taller or pulsing with power. Or a ray of light on them.

Oxarhamar
11-22-2014, 11:19 PM
Yeah, fail. They're not learning the same game if it doesn't have Monster Champions.

The setting that's supposed to strip out danger and let you just admire the scenery is called "Casual".

Champions were proposed to amp up difficulties in Hard and Elite not normal there is no reason for them to be there.

Plenty of things that are learned in Normal have to be unlearned as you graduate to Hard and Elite even more again when moving into EH & EE. No reason to make normal more difficult.

Xianio
11-22-2014, 11:31 PM
Further feedback isnt really needed. Its a terrible idea. Dont believe me? Go read a Diablo 2 forum. That game has mobs called, wait for it, Champions. With randomly spawned effects. That are *notorious* for creating combinations where you just portal out to reroll it and go back in.

This is what makes D3 a good game. The random champion add-on's change the game from a mindless grind into 'oh ****!' moments that require tweaking toons/adjusting gear on the fly. It falls apart a bit in Reaper of Souls Greater Rifts because everything is time-based and clearing quickly is the name of the game, but it's literally what makes the game interesting for the 1,000th run.

Here's my feedback for you though, as someone who has far too many hours playing with this mechanic in D3:

- A 'crown' isn't enough of a telegraph for players. Meaningful 'champion' attributes need to be visually identified from a distance. A glowing circle indicating 'melee strength', a shine over the eyes showing 'trueseeing' etc.

- The buffs need to be creative. Basic stat buffs will -always- punish melee classes more. Anti-magic and Anti-ranged specific buffs need to be added so that champions represent challenges to all character archetypes. Yes, this means that sometimes melees will get a stupid easy champion that has buffs that make it anti-magic/ranged but no additional challenge for them. This is good. Randomness can make things rewarding AND outright punishing.

- It's better to 'grade' your buffs then to outright remove them from different difficult levels. This suggestion only works if you get creative with the buffs though. Basic stat buffs can work for Normal but leaving the creative ones for higher levels gives you leeway to ramp up difficulty. The way D3 does this is by making the number of buffs a champion can stack increase with each difficult increase. One buff is minor and generally easy to deal with. Four buffs creates insanely punishing scenarios where you can spend a good 4-5 minutes trying to beat a particularly juiced up zombie.

- Do NOT be afraid to kill us with these. As long as players can SEE what they're getting into ahead of time it's okay to toss to make these buffs challenging. Auto-win because this is your 30th life shouldn't be the mindset for EE - on any quest.

- The buffs should make players THINK and challenge them mechanically. Moving to avoid environmentally generated 'pits', changing spells or weapons to deal with 'shifting' immunities, backing off to avoid timed reflecting or shielded champions are excellent buffs that makes players turn off their auto-pilot and pay close attention to their opponent. If you keep us thinking you keep it fun.

- Finally, reward players for beating these monsters. A good way to do this is to introduce a 'champions fetish/token/ear/heart' or whatever collectable (infinite stacks). Attach these to your 'epic' crafting mechanic. This creates incentives to fit these champions and allows you to gate your economy/slow powercreep by tweaking these costs instead of exp/drop rates.

Scrabbler
11-22-2014, 11:46 PM
- Do NOT be afraid to kill us with these. As long as players can SEE what they're getting into ahead of time it's okay to toss to make these buffs challenging.
Since Monster Champion is randomly applied to any monster (besides redname) in any dungeon (besides raid), that means the players can't see what they're getting ahead of time. Think back to the last time a monster attacked you without you getting a chance to see him standing there outside of aggro range first.

Xianio
11-22-2014, 11:50 PM
TAnti-magic and Anti-ranged specific buffs need to be added so that champions represent challenges to all character archetypes.

These buffs are always the hardest to come up with as doing one 'wrong' means that the archetype is completely broken in some scenarios. So here are a few that can work:

- Fast movement. A monster that moves quick is significantly more challenging for toons that need to kite.

- Ranged shielding. If you're within X feet you do full damage. Anything further away starts to see %-based decreases.

- 'Rebirth.' When hit with instant death effects, the monster is reborn with 50% of its current health (1/2 uses only)

- Magic Shield. When hit with a spell the champion gains a stacking % damage decrease vs that damage type. This is erased by switching damage type.

- Ranged/Magic Reflecting. Timed buff. For a short period of time a % of the damage done from range or magic (depending on the buff the Champ has) is returned to the source.

- Unstoppable. Hindering effects (slows, holds, knockdowns) have no effect and could have detrimental results. E.g. For every slow/hold cast on this monster they gain a stacking speed buff and a massive argo increase to the caster.


You get the idea. All of these suggestions work within the current systems of the game. All make use of basic, but creative applications of challenging tweaks to scenarios that can be adjusted for on the fly and beaten by a skilled player. This stuff makes games like these fun, LONG after they should have been boring.

Xianio
11-22-2014, 11:55 PM
Since Monster Champion is randomly applied to any monster (besides redname) in any dungeon (besides raid), that means the players can't see what they're getting ahead of time. Think back to the last time a monster attacked you without you getting a chance to see him standing there outside of aggro range first.

Yes, that'll happen. I don't contend that. It's an increase challenge/risk. However, there are ways to navigate many (maybe most?) levels where you can scope out your encounter before actually running it. This is the 'see it coming' that I'm referring to. Not the 'I won't play this instance because X spawn will appear' kind of see it coming.

Sometimes you'll need to run. Sometimes you'll need to switch your gear as you run. Sometimes you'll need to acknowledge that you're simply not capable of beating that combination with your current setup and you'll have to die trying or give up.

All of these are okay responses to a random challenge setup. This is what makes you actually think while on that instance you've played for the 200th time.

MangLord
11-23-2014, 12:13 AM
It sounds kinda cool, but if the chest they can drop doesn't have a chance for anything other than vendor trash, then I can't really see the point. If you were guaranteed, at the very least, an impressive trophy for killing a champion, or a chunk of xp similar to an optional, then it might be nice. If there was a unique reward possibility (perhaps applying their buffs to the party for 20 min or so), that might also be compelling.

If you guys can work out a way to make the champion chest have a chance to drop named quest loot, or something interesting, then it might be worth it. Otherwise it just seems like it'll be another bigass tree to stop and chop down and most people will likely just invis past them to avoid the trouble.

If I'm just looking at the chance for a pile of lootgen to sell, I'm going to groan every time I see a champion very quickly. If I have an incentive of extra XP, some guild renown and especially a chance at named loot, I will take the time to tackle every champion i see.

I don't think that mini-bosses should be championed. Sometimes they're hard enough to kill on their own, and adding a random set of buffs could make them impossible to kill in the right combination. Beholders, scorpions and shadows should all be exempt from champion status. They're incredibly annoying as is.

MangLord
11-23-2014, 12:45 AM
My suggestion, add checkbox when you enter and pick difficulty. Click for champions and have the quest seed with an appropriate amount. Make it a choice and a challenge. I would most likely want it each time, unless I'm pressed for playtime and just want to get some xp leveling done..

I'd like to have this feature, and agree completely with this statement. Sometimes I'm just running a quest I really dislike (friends in low places comes to mind immediately) to finish out a saga and I don't want to deal with the extra headache of some random champion trapsmith with True Seeing constantly bypassing my displacement as I try to disable a spell ward or two just to get to him. If I can't trip him with a Low Blow or any other effect to get him to stay in one place for longer than 5 seconds, I'm just going to get annoyed as I chase and slowly chew away at 30k hp.

I won't even get into what a nightmare a champion Fleshwright would be in epic Fleshmaker. The way two of them spam no save stun grenades is annoying enough on EN.

R1ncewind
11-23-2014, 01:05 AM
I was wondering why not give a simple solution to the reward, lets create the Champion Craftmanship, instead of lowering the level of a weapon or item by two it reduce it by 4, and in end game content give access to a couple of new suffixes, or let you add an extra suffix or prefix to the table of the item plus lowering the level of the item ;D i would love to have a min lvl 7 +6 int item :D

Scrabbler
11-23-2014, 01:40 AM
The objective of Monster Champions is to make finishing a quest harder and more complicated, not to give you another source of loot income.

The reward for killing Champions is the same you get for finishing the quest in general, just like killing the boss, miniboss, or any other monsters there.

zwiebelring
11-23-2014, 02:28 AM
If you've been questing on Lamannia, we'd love to get your feedback on something new that's been added to Update 24 in our most recent build: Monster Champions! From the Release Notes:

Is this a potentially new way to give god mode to some mobs? Is it possible to debuff (if this buff is within the general repertoire of spellcaster classes)? If yes, cool, if no, then it is another cheat you use for providing challenge in a wrong way.

patang01
11-23-2014, 02:32 AM
Like I said, some will complain if the snack at the end of the dangling string isn't to their liking. Others will welcome challenge just for challenge and for something different/random.

Keep in mind we asked for something like this.

I doubt anyone want to do a challenge without at least a tangible reward. Maybe once, after that beating HP bags for nothing more than a chance of random garbage loot becomes tiring and tedious. I would personally avoid something like that if it's only going to waste my time.

Scrabbler
11-23-2014, 02:57 AM
The biggest thing I dislike about Monster Champions in practice (aside from not spawning on Normal) is their uniform random distribution. Usually a room will have 0-1 of them, but sometimes you'll luck out and face 4 at once. It'd probably be better if they couldn't clump like that... of the X% of Champion monsters per dungeon, space them out.


Some champs cause a negative DOT. I wonder what that does to a PM.


I almost want to see every yellow-name miniboss get a random Champion power (maybe at half strength)


I'd like a place to get a potion, which if 100% of players in the instance drank it, would turn 100% of the monsters into Champions. If you do that before killing a monster then it shows up in your XP window.

Oxarhamar
11-23-2014, 03:04 AM
I doubt anyone want to do a challenge without at least a tangible reward. Maybe once, after that beating HP bags for nothing more than a chance of random garbage loot becomes tiring and tedious. I would personally avoid something like that if it's only going to waste my time.

Exactly

just going to push more and more players to EN for efficiency since there already is no unique rewards for doing EH or EE.

Make the Challenge dangerous and rewarding = win.

Make the Challenge make the quests take longer to complete = after the first few goes for novelty the increased duration with no reward will grow tiresome fast,.

BigErkyKid
11-23-2014, 05:33 AM
The objective of Monster Champions is to make finishing a quest harder and more complicated, not to give you another source of loot income.

The reward for killing Champions is the same you get for finishing the quest in general, just like killing the boss, miniboss, or any other monsters there.

Harder, meaning simply it drags for longer, will not be very appealing.

I should be excited about killing champions, looking for them to challenge them for an awesome reward if I manage to kill them.

If it just adds +5 mins to my completition I fail to see how it will be a good change.

The problem with a lot of the content of the game is precisely that there is not enough reward.

Take GH quests for instance. In epics it is barely ever run, they are semi tough and have horribad experience and loot.

Now champions is a great opportunity. Create a whole themed reward system based on champions.

For instance, champions in GH drop some tokens or what not. These can be exchanged for some unique and appealing gear that fits the theme in GH. For instance, some awesome giant beater.

Now do that for all the packs. In Druid's curse, a very nice fiery plant beater collection of weapons, or some awesome leafy armor with camouflage properties.

Be create and give us very nice niche loot out of it and I guarantee people will hunt these champions down. Now make them tough to beat and we have a sort of end game right there, outside of raids.

PS - Not only hard on melees like right now, sirs!

Saekee
11-23-2014, 08:23 AM
Please design champions so that their chests are locked but can be picked when they are still alive. This would add a whole new dimension to stealth play--sneak past a champion, break into their chest, steal their stash. It's simple to implement; locked chest until they die (but pickable); unlocks on death.
Please do this.
please
please?
please!

OverlordOfRats
11-23-2014, 08:24 AM
I think how Champions spawn needs to be changed as it affects some quest more than others.

As a test I ran Kobold Assault on elite. About 10% of the monsters were Champions.
First run had 21 Champions plus the troglodyte.
Second run had 22.
Third run had 18.

Compare that to First Strike where the goal is to kill 20 hobgoblin guards. Champions in the current form makes Kobold Assault way more difficult than First Strike, both level five quests on elite.


I do like the idea posted by some for a check box for Champions on the difficulty selection screen.
Leave it off and have the difficulty for hard and elite as it currently is. Works for those who find hard and elite a challenge as they are currently setup. Works for those who just want to run a quick XP/loot/favor run.
Turn it on for more challenge. Works for those who find the current elite to easy. Works for those who want some variety because they have run the quest 100 times.

Aelonwy
11-23-2014, 08:35 AM
*snip*


I do like the idea posted by some for a check box for Champions on the difficulty selection screen.
Leave it off and have the difficulty for hard and elite as it currently is. Works for those who find hard and elite a challenge as they are currently setup. Works for those who just want to run a quick XP/loot/favor run.
Turn it on for more challenge. Works for those who find the current elite to easy. Works for those who want some variety because they have run the quest 100 times.

Agreed. Champion Check Box, please.

nibel
11-23-2014, 08:48 AM
Since Monster Champion is randomly applied to any monster (besides redname) in any dungeon (besides raid), that means the players can't see what they're getting ahead of time. Think back to the last time a monster attacked you without you getting a chance to see him standing there outside of aggro range first.

Since I don't zerg all the time, this only happens when I face stealthed mobs. This is some very specific quests: Monastery and WGU are the only ones that jump into my mind. Also includes the "infinite respawn" quest types, like Kobold Assault, Weapons Shipment, and Acute Delirium.

Other than that, you can see 99% of the mobs before they can fight you.

DagazUlf
11-23-2014, 09:15 AM
As long as what we're seeing on Lammy is still in its infancy and will be getting some tweaks, I really like it/them.

Right now, my main concern is that there seems to be way too many of them. So much that they're not really like "Champions", just more buffed up mobs. Dial back the number of them and make each one harder, and you'll have a winner.

Sounds like you're working on the reward system still. That was my only other point of contention.

Thanks.

nibel
11-23-2014, 09:37 AM
These buffs are always the hardest to come up with as doing one 'wrong' means that the archetype is completely broken in some scenarios. So here are a few that can work:

On Hard, champions can get one effect from the list. On elite, they get two. If the champion is a miniboss, it gets one more.

Wind Wall: Nullifies every ranged weapon attack against the monster. It flickers on and off every 12 seconds (Visual cue: Air elemental overlay, like with Air Savant elemental form). On elite it flickers every 6 seconds.
Elemental Shield: Monster is immune to elemental damage. There is versions for every element (Fire, Cold, Acid, Electric, Sonic, Negative, Force). Do not deal retribution damage to melee attackers. (Visual cue: Sun Body effect, color-coded: Fire red, Cold blue, Acid green, electric yellow, sonic white, Negative black, Force purple). On Hard, they also have vulnerability to the opposite element (or random element in case of sonic, negative and force)
Teleport: Monster teleport to target every 10 seconds, like Orthons/Bearded Devils. No visual cues.
Quick Reactions: Monster gets +50% movement speed, +99 to reflex saves, Evasion, and never fail a reflex save on an 1. (Visual cue: Light footsteps like Expeditious Retreat)
Shielded: Monster gets Nightshield, 100 PRR/MRR (aka: 50% damage reduction), +99 Fortitude save, and never fail a fortitude save on an 1. (Visual cue: Stoneskin effect)
Mind Blank: Monster gets True Seeing, +99 to will saves and never fail a will save on an 1. (Visual cue: Light halo, like Crown of Condemnation)
Strongman: Monster gets 100% Fortification bypass, ignores up to 100 elemental resist and +100 Melee/Ranged/Spell Power (Visual cue: +50% size)
Warlord: Monster have a buff aura (aura size like the LoB dogs) that grants nearby allies the same buffs it has. This effect should only appear on Elite settings. (Visual cue: faint light particles effects like Radiant Aura)
Armored: Monster takes half damage from two of Slash, Piercing or Bludgeoning. It takes double damage from the remaining type (Visual cue: Weapon icon overhead: Arrow for piercing vulnerability, hammer for bludgeoning vulnerability, sword for slashing vulnerability). On Elite it becomes immune to the former damage types, and is no longer vulnerable to the remaining one.
Stealthy: Monster have Improved Invisibility (don't dispel while attacking) and 25% Incorporeal. On elite, it raises to 50% Incorporeal and adds Displacement. (Visual cues: Mob is invisible, duh)
Regeneration: Monster recover 2% HP every 3 seconds. Regeneration can be stopped for 6 seconds by hitting the enemy with some specific metal type weapon (or metalline). (Visual cue: Overhead icon: Werewolf icon for Silver, Dryad icon for Cold iron, Mindflayer for Byeshk, Helm/Golem for Adamantine). On Elite the regen is 5% HP every 3 seconds.
Epic Ward: Like current Epic Ward (stat damage and level draon resistance/regen, short-lived charms). (Visual cue: Mage Armor effect overlay)


Just how I would handle the effects list.

FestusHood
11-23-2014, 09:47 AM
1. I like the idea. I think a good reward system would be to reward credits, maybe based on the cr rating. Something which absolutely does not go into your inventory in any way. Then put in a vendor with interesting things to buy which cost these credits. You don't get the credits if you are over level. Have to be in bravery bonus range.

2 I would prefer it be optional, if there is any way to do that. Not everybody finds the game too easy now. In fact, many people don't. A checkbox on the quest window would be ideal.

Lonnbeimnech
11-23-2014, 09:48 AM
On Hard, champions can get one effect from the list. On elite, they get two. If the champion is a miniboss, it gets one more.

Wind Wall: Nullifies every ranged weapon attack against the monster. It flickers on and off every 12 seconds (Visual cue: Air elemental overlay, like with Air Savant elemental form). On elite it flickers every 6 seconds.
Elemental Shield: Monster is immune to elemental damage. There is versions for every element (Fire, Cold, Acid, Electric, Sonic, Negative, Force). Do not deal retribution damage to melee attackers. (Visual cue: Sun Body effect, color-coded: Fire red, Cold blue, Acid green, electric yellow, sonic white, Negative black, Force purple). On Hard, they also have vulnerability to the opposite element (or random element in case of sonic, negative and force)
Teleport: Monster teleport to target every 10 seconds, like Orthons/Bearded Devils. No visual cues.
Quick Reactions: Monster gets +50% movement speed, +99 to reflex saves, Evasion, and never fail a reflex save on an 1. (Visual cue: Light footsteps like Expeditious Retreat)
Shielded: Monster gets Nightshield, 100 PRR/MRR (aka: 50% damage reduction), +99 Fortitude save, and never fail a fortitude save on an 1. (Visual cue: Stoneskin effect)
Mind Blank: Monster gets True Seeing, +99 to will saves and never fail a will save on an 1. (Visual cue: Light halo, like Crown of Condemnation)
Strongman: Monster gets 100% Fortification bypass, ignores up to 100 elemental resist and +100 Melee/Ranged/Spell Power (Visual cue: +50% size)
Warlord: Monster have a buff aura (aura size like the LoB dogs) that grants nearby allies the same buffs it has. This effect should only appear on Elite settings. (Visual cue: faint light particles effects like Radiant Aura)
Armored: Monster takes half damage from two of Slash, Piercing or Bludgeoning. It takes double damage from the remaining type (Visual cue: Weapon icon overhead: Arrow for piercing vulnerability, hammer for bludgeoning vulnerability, sword for slashing vulnerability). On Elite it becomes immune to the former damage types, and is no longer vulnerable to the remaining one.
Stealthy: Monster have Improved Invisibility (don't dispel while attacking) and 25% Incorporeal. On elite, it raises to 50% Incorporeal and adds Displacement. (Visual cues: Mob is invisible, duh)
Regeneration: Monster recover 2% HP every 3 seconds. Regeneration can be stopped for 6 seconds by hitting the enemy with some specific metal type weapon (or metalline). (Visual cue: Overhead icon: Werewolf icon for Silver, Dryad icon for Cold iron, Mindflayer for Byeshk, Helm/Golem for Adamantine). On Elite the regen is 5% HP every 3 seconds.
Epic Ward: Like current Epic Ward (stat damage and level draon resistance/regen, short-lived charms). (Visual cue: Mage Armor effect overlay)


Just how I would handle the effects list.

Consider that these will also happen in level 1 quests.

Yalinaa
11-23-2014, 11:04 AM
Agreed. Champion Check Box, please.

Yes, this is the way they should develop this new system. Not because challenge is bad or good, my main reason is simple and based on facts. The fact is they NEVER finish/fix a system, so the last thing I need in this game another system which can make the quest being bugged/uncompletable because an unexpected thing happens with a champion.

So, just do us a favor, and make that check box please, it's easier and cheaper than hiring more resources.

nibel
11-23-2014, 11:42 AM
Consider that these will also happen in level 1 quests.

I'm considering it. That's why everything I suggested is percentage-based, except for the perma-save buffs that is ridiculously high in purpose (+99).

Mryal
11-23-2014, 01:07 PM
First of all, this is a great idea! It was obviously taken from Diablo and other similar games.Its a great twist.But since its inspired in those games, might aswell go deeper and take more inspiration.On those games, the said mobs drop rare loot, one of those is the most interesting gem system, wich you can augment into weapons and items...we alredy have that.
Why not create several other interesting augments that could drop from champion chests? People have been asking for healing amp, also more effects like those AOE rubies, and possibly spell crit or spellpower (non red slot, but stackable, small amount).
Also someone else mentioned that we should be able to use dispel to remove the mob buffs - this is a GREAT idea.Dispell has to have its uses.
Others suggested sneaking past, i'd agree with that, as long as the chest becomes impossible to be picked if you are spotted at any point.
Overall, this is a great idea, that leaves room for a lot of other great ideas.

Wizza
11-23-2014, 02:51 PM
I still would love to see the complete (or almost) list of all buffs.

And chests do need something added to them. Random trash = still trash. I will just invis zerg beyond them, just as every other mob in the quest.

Qezuzu
11-23-2014, 02:57 PM
The only real problem with this is system is that there is no reward for beating them, and they just make it harder to do melee classes.

Champions should reward XP and renown. This would help compensate the increased time to complete quests (thus the XP/min.)

Champions should also reward tokens or whatever. These tokens could be turned in for crafting materials, or for new named items (if you do this, please be sure to provide some under-represented weapons, e.g. Heavy Picks.) You could make them pack-specific too, e.g. Champions in Gianthold drop "Token of Gianthold" or whatever, which provide Gianthold-themed items.

Champions should also have anti-range and magic abilties. Things like Deflect Arrows feat and elemental absorption or spell absorption, or greatly increased movement speed so they can't be kited. Most of the current abilities, namely increased damage and defense bypasses, only threaten melees.

That's all I can really think of. Beyond that, I think it's a good system.

lyrecono
11-23-2014, 04:10 PM
so many champion buffs, they seem to hurt melee's a lot, the current buffs will see another rise of ranged builds, again, sigh
70+% of the buffs can be ignred by ranged attacks, you are aware of that dev's?
in the mean whille you haven't even fixed the barbarian tree's, how about spending some more effort on fixing them before you nerf them? (again)
i almost got the idea that you dev's got bullied at school by the jocks and now you're taking it out on melee toons.


why not give m buffs that give a 50% spell reflection onto the caster? (they get their own dc's to make the save)
why not a 50% returning arrow/bolt buff?
a rust storm aura that prevents repair spells?

or how about fixing the game before adding another layer of coding waiting to be broken.

Powerhungry
11-23-2014, 04:31 PM
On Hard, champions can get one effect from the list. On elite, they get two. If the champion is a miniboss, it gets one more.

Wind Wall: Nullifies every ranged weapon attack against the monster. It flickers on and off every 12 seconds (Visual cue: Air elemental overlay, like with Air Savant elemental form). On elite it flickers every 6 seconds.
Elemental Shield: Monster is immune to elemental damage. There is versions for every element (Fire, Cold, Acid, Electric, Sonic, Negative, Force). Do not deal retribution damage to melee attackers. (Visual cue: Sun Body effect, color-coded: Fire red, Cold blue, Acid green, electric yellow, sonic white, Negative black, Force purple). On Hard, they also have vulnerability to the opposite element (or random element in case of sonic, negative and force)
Teleport: Monster teleport to target every 10 seconds, like Orthons/Bearded Devils. No visual cues.
Quick Reactions: Monster gets +50% movement speed, +99 to reflex saves, Evasion, and never fail a reflex save on an 1. (Visual cue: Light footsteps like Expeditious Retreat)
Shielded: Monster gets Nightshield, 100 PRR/MRR (aka: 50% damage reduction), +99 Fortitude save, and never fail a fortitude save on an 1. (Visual cue: Stoneskin effect)
Mind Blank: Monster gets True Seeing, +99 to will saves and never fail a will save on an 1. (Visual cue: Light halo, like Crown of Condemnation)
Strongman: Monster gets 100% Fortification bypass, ignores up to 100 elemental resist and +100 Melee/Ranged/Spell Power (Visual cue: +50% size)
Warlord: Monster have a buff aura (aura size like the LoB dogs) that grants nearby allies the same buffs it has. This effect should only appear on Elite settings. (Visual cue: faint light particles effects like Radiant Aura)
Armored: Monster takes half damage from two of Slash, Piercing or Bludgeoning. It takes double damage from the remaining type (Visual cue: Weapon icon overhead: Arrow for piercing vulnerability, hammer for bludgeoning vulnerability, sword for slashing vulnerability). On Elite it becomes immune to the former damage types, and is no longer vulnerable to the remaining one.
Stealthy: Monster have Improved Invisibility (don't dispel while attacking) and 25% Incorporeal. On elite, it raises to 50% Incorporeal and adds Displacement. (Visual cues: Mob is invisible, duh)
Regeneration: Monster recover 2% HP every 3 seconds. Regeneration can be stopped for 6 seconds by hitting the enemy with some specific metal type weapon (or metalline). (Visual cue: Overhead icon: Werewolf icon for Silver, Dryad icon for Cold iron, Mindflayer for Byeshk, Helm/Golem for Adamantine). On Elite the regen is 5% HP every 3 seconds.
Epic Ward: Like current Epic Ward (stat damage and level draon resistance/regen, short-lived charms). (Visual cue: Mage Armor effect overlay)


Just how I would handle the effects list.
An interesting and not completely broken list (IMO).
There must be a rewards system for this or, like many others have pointed out, most will just invis and run past.
Several individuals have mentioned 'champion tokens' or something similar that can be turned in. The trouble with something like this is the duppers. One poster mentioned tokens being turned in for epic scroll/seal/shards - this would (IMO) be a huge mistake that kills VoN6 as within 2 weeks everyone that needs an ESOS shard (or epic ring of spell storing) will have one from the duped tokens that would (almost) certainly infest the game. (like many people having all tier 3 thunder-forged items within a week of release of that pack).

nibel
11-23-2014, 04:50 PM
There must be a rewards system for this or, like many others have pointed out, most will just invis and run past.

1) I think too many people overestimate the number of players that rush invisible through the entire quest.

2) I think the intention of the Champion mechanic is basically to add challenge in and on itself. It is not supposed to be a new way to get shinies in the game, but challenge for challenge sake. If that mechanic is annoying enough for some people not run elite anymore (even on heroics), they must remember they will give up all the perks that comes with the elite streak (XP, higher chance at named loot, favor, etc).

Qhualor
11-23-2014, 04:59 PM
1) I think too many people overestimate the number of players that rush invisible through the entire quest.

2) I think the intention of the Champion mechanic is basically to add challenge in and on itself. It is not supposed to be a new way to get shinies in the game, but challenge for challenge sake. If that mechanic is annoying enough for some people not run elite anymore (even on heroics), they must remember they will give up all the perks that comes with the elite streak (XP, higher chance at named loot, favor, etc).

this and also you wont notice the Champion until you are up on him. by that time invising past him, along with any of the other mobs around him, wont make sense and will be too late. you either just fight him or you/group decides to keep running past with the chance of mobs following.

redoubt
11-23-2014, 11:31 PM
Please design champions so that their chests are locked but can be picked when they are still alive. This would add a whole new dimension to stealth play--sneak past a champion, break into their chest, steal their stash. It's simple to implement; locked chest until they die (but pickable); unlocks on death.
Please do this.
please
please?
please!

I like this idea.


On Hard, champions can get one effect from the list. On elite, they get two. If the champion is a miniboss, it gets one more.

Wind Wall: Nullifies every ranged weapon attack against the monster. It flickers on and off every 12 seconds (Visual cue: Air elemental overlay, like with Air Savant elemental form). On elite it flickers every 6 seconds.
Elemental Shield: Monster is immune to elemental damage. There is versions for every element (Fire, Cold, Acid, Electric, Sonic, Negative, Force). Do not deal retribution damage to melee attackers. (Visual cue: Sun Body effect, color-coded: Fire red, Cold blue, Acid green, electric yellow, sonic white, Negative black, Force purple). On Hard, they also have vulnerability to the opposite element (or random element in case of sonic, negative and force)
Teleport: Monster teleport to target every 10 seconds, like Orthons/Bearded Devils. No visual cues.
Quick Reactions: Monster gets +50% movement speed, +99 to reflex saves, Evasion, and never fail a reflex save on an 1. (Visual cue: Light footsteps like Expeditious Retreat)
Shielded: Monster gets Nightshield, 100 PRR/MRR (aka: 50% damage reduction), +99 Fortitude save, and never fail a fortitude save on an 1. (Visual cue: Stoneskin effect)
Mind Blank: Monster gets True Seeing, +99 to will saves and never fail a will save on an 1. (Visual cue: Light halo, like Crown of Condemnation)
Strongman: Monster gets 100% Fortification bypass, ignores up to 100 elemental resist and +100 Melee/Ranged/Spell Power (Visual cue: +50% size)
Warlord: Monster have a buff aura (aura size like the LoB dogs) that grants nearby allies the same buffs it has. This effect should only appear on Elite settings. (Visual cue: faint light particles effects like Radiant Aura)
Armored: Monster takes half damage from two of Slash, Piercing or Bludgeoning. It takes double damage from the remaining type (Visual cue: Weapon icon overhead: Arrow for piercing vulnerability, hammer for bludgeoning vulnerability, sword for slashing vulnerability). On Elite it becomes immune to the former damage types, and is no longer vulnerable to the remaining one.
Stealthy: Monster have Improved Invisibility (don't dispel while attacking) and 25% Incorporeal. On elite, it raises to 50% Incorporeal and adds Displacement. (Visual cues: Mob is invisible, duh)
Regeneration: Monster recover 2% HP every 3 seconds. Regeneration can be stopped for 6 seconds by hitting the enemy with some specific metal type weapon (or metalline). (Visual cue: Overhead icon: Werewolf icon for Silver, Dryad icon for Cold iron, Mindflayer for Byeshk, Helm/Golem for Adamantine). On Elite the regen is 5% HP every 3 seconds.
Epic Ward: Like current Epic Ward (stat damage and level draon resistance/regen, short-lived charms). (Visual cue: Mage Armor effect overlay)


Just how I would handle the effects list.

I would do something similar, though I think these are over tuned (or at least do not consider anything other than max level EE quests. For example, a mob fully that can fully regen in 60 seconds and has +99 fort save is going to be pain in the behind to a Pale Master (more like impossible.)

Impossible is bad.

Again, I like the concept. Create a list of level appropriate effects. i.e. the list for a level 7 dungeon on elite might include 100% fort on the mob and +5 deadly item. The list for a level 23 dungeon on normal would include base CiTW level items and hard would be 1 upgrade and elite 2 upgrades. This giving them buffs like we have. +99 to anything is just too much. I played the old epic with the old epic ward and it was just not fun.

Group the affects into categories: offensive, defensive, party. (Party buffs would be things like a bard song or paladin aura.)

Next, I would look at spawn rate. First off, mobs that are regenerating should have a chance to be champions on initial spawn, but not on respawn. Second, set the rate of champion spawns based on difficulty level. Normal: 1%, hard 2%, elite 3%. (Consider that going to conquest in a quest like coal chamber elite is going to, on average, spawn 14 champions, many of them on the ledges in the shafts. That should be plenty.)

Then, as Nibel suggested, give the mobs buffs based on the difficulty setting. normal gets 1 buff, hard gets 2 and elite gets 3. The mobs only get one buff from each category. This can still end up with some wicked combinations of buffs, but will prevent the triple threat sort of thing where a mob is either immune to everything you can throw at it OR the mob has so many offensive buffs that you run away or die.

Please consider the fun factor as this is a game. If you make champions that require people to recall and reset or to sit out a fight completely while others deal with it, I think you are making a mistake. For example, a PM with necro and enchantment focus will have low dps. If the buff to the mob eliminates the ability to use both things and gives them high regen or elemental defense, then that character is out of the fight. Instead, take away one path. If that path happens to be your best path and you must fight on your secondary skill, then its more challenging, but still doable. Leaving people feeling like their build is nullified repeatedly would be a bad plan.

Thank you.

MangLord
11-24-2014, 12:02 AM
I think that the people asking for more challenge are very vocal, but I'm hoping that adding champions won't drive away more casual players. If that's the case, it'll definitely limit the amount of people that I play with regularly that will be prepared for EH. Some of my friends have a hard enough time as it is.

I'd definitely suggest an option when you start the quest to turn champions on and off (I'd be fine with champions always set to on for EE, since my more casual friends don't want to run that anyways) for N and H difficulties. Perhaps after an elite completion, you can have the option to turn champions off for that difficulty as well. (If I'm farming an EE for a certain drop, I might not want to deal with more nonsense on the way to an end chest)

I'd like to see either the buffs or frequency of champions to be adjusted. Some of the champions were very tough to kill, even on lvl 25ish EH. In order for them to feel at all special, I'd like to see one or possibly two per quest. The buffs can be tricky to deal with if we only have to worry about it once or twice, but I don't want to be dealing with it once every other mob. Right now they just feel like a nuisance to me. They should certainly come with a sizable xp reward or a chest filled with something more desirable than some gold, a couple pieces of junk gear and possibly a heroic deeds.

nibel
11-24-2014, 12:26 AM
I would do something similar, though I think these are over tuned (or at least do not consider anything other than max level EE quests. For example, a mob fully that can fully regen in 60 seconds and has +99 fort save is going to be pain in the behind to a Pale Master (more like impossible.)

Well, elite setting is supposed to be party-based, not solo-based. So even on your situation, if you was accompanied by a bard or a melee character, those buffs would be tough, but not a deal breaker for them. While your PM could not finish the mob off, you could still debuff him with energy drains, use webs, disco, holds, etc. Just because you were locked from one of your tools it doesn't make you useless.

Actually, the "immune to slash, pierce or blunt" mechanic have a higher potential to be disruptive than the immunity to a save-specific spells. Most weapon characters usually devots their feats and enhancements to improve a single weapon type. A slash-based character that is suddenly forced to use a maul will lose a lot of crit-power at high levels.

The +99 save things is supposed to be "immune to every fortitude effect" (and reflex, and will, on their categories), but parsed in a way that is easily coded into the game. +99 works as an overkill buff for elite khortos and EE Necro 4. It delivers the intended result.

BOgre
11-24-2014, 12:28 AM
You've said you'll be looking closely at what kinds of rewards Champs will give. I'd like to see something more meaningful than vendor trash in their chests. XP would be nice, for sure, but so would Augments, Tomes, Ship buffs, etc. It'd be great if Champs dropped a significantly elevated class of loot.

Seikojin
11-24-2014, 12:56 AM
I lie the variety in champions, and I like the density. It is a great difficulty boost to the game. I really think the rewards from them should be adjusted.

Zakharov
11-24-2014, 03:03 AM
Just based on what I've read so far this does not go nearly far enough - these sort of random buffs are the minimum of what we have needed for years. We need them on every single creature in the game, or at least on every single sentient creature. It at least partially emulates npc's wearing appropriate gear and/or casting appropriate buffs on themselves. You should also make it difficult to read what buffs they have - maybe add detect magic spells or roll skill checks to identify them?

I don't understand the complaints about this at all. Every dungeon should have at least something you are good at dealing with and something you are bad at dealing with. No one should be able to handle everything, no matter how well built they are. Some creatures randomly seeing through your displacement is an amazingly good thing for the game, that means you have to pause and think for a moment once in a while instead of steamrolling through everything.

The consistent trend the past few years has been eroding the unique abilities of enemies so anyone can deal with any situation, I suppose to make it even more solo friendly? I think it just makes the game bland and boring. Golems should be immune to magic, but they aren't any more. Trolls should require fire to kill, but they don't any more. Debuffs should be debilitating enough to remove you from a fight completely, but they generally don't any more. Player and npc abilities & spells should be treated equally, but they aren't any more. You should revert all of these changes in my opinion. Then add the random buffs to everything along with more varied AI and full enhancement & destiny abilities for all intelligent npc's. Now you might have something to keep people playing for a while.

MangLord
11-24-2014, 03:08 AM
I thought I'd give some lower level EE a try, namely the first Eveningstar chain, stuff I know I could solo with a hairy moment or two. I'm not saying that EE should be easy, but I feel like it should be similar to HE, where a well geared, capable player with knowledge of the game can find a way through it without cheesing. I was having quite a bit of trouble completing what were previously doable quests while I was considerably over level and overpowered. I did die a few times, and I consider myself to be a better than average player with a good build. The most annoying problem was getting hit with a poison paralysis and then getting absolutely chunked by a champion with an extra damage boost and vulnerability effect that enhanced the rest of the mob. I'd never seen 900+ hp go down so fast.

I was playing a level 28 Bard14/Rogue2/Fighter4 with the majority of my heroic past lives done, awesome gear and several ETR in the bag. The frequency of the champions dramatically ramp up the difficulty. It seemed like there was one in every other mob, and in large mobs, they can prove to be very troublesome with the increased damage. Necromancer champions are a frigging nightmare, and when they raise another Undead Necro that comes back as a champion, I feel like the situation went from bad to worse. Even keeping a constant Displacement going and a full stack of Masters Blitz, I was often running around in circles wishing that my healing cooldowns were quicker. As of right now, champions are not melee friendly.

I'm generally ok with the champion concept, except that the development team seems to straddle the fence again with the introduction. The push for the more recent updates was to make more classes viable at epic difficulties, which should include EE even if the group isn't full of power players. Personally, I'd like to see more of my friends list respond to an EE run instead of dismissing it as "gross", "I'm not powerful enough lol sorry" or "forget it". The introduction of champions in their current form raises the difficulty again, pushing back against the trend for build diversity at epic levels. If DDO wants EE to be "1%ers only", then plant a flag and stand by it. If the emphasis continues to be more inclusionary for a variety of builds and playstyles, then this is not the right move, at least in its current iteration. EN seems like a much faster, more reliable XP grind.

Also, I fought quite a few champions and never saw a chest.

MangLord
11-24-2014, 03:23 AM
Here's an idea. How about every champion slain raises the loot table of the end chest by one level, similar to (and stacking with) a Jewel of Fortune or Dragonmark of Finding? That concept may kill two birds with one stone by increasing the droprate of named loot and especially the shard/seal/scroll problem, thus encouraging people to play higher difficulty settings.

I'm looking for a good way to get excited about encountering a champion and not dreading the experience. In my opinion, that's how it should be.

LongshotBro
11-24-2014, 03:40 AM
This sounds like a very cool system to implement. Sure, it could use some tweaking but the idea is solid.

Definitely dig the notion of some randomness like this spread throughout all quests. This is a good path to start down, dev team.

Personally, i don't think there ought to be immediate rewards, except maybe a little xp bump upon completion, like an optional. On the other hand, some sort of champion-killer token would be cool. Perhaps for unique cosmetic gear or minor clicky trinkets and stuff. I would not want to see this system turn into a mad rush to get tokens, acquire specific loot and then get largely ignored. if the rewards are powerful and lucrative (and further enhance what many consider overpowered characters) then it will wind up a wash, where the champion is just another trash mob to steamroll.

Sounds like they are spawning quite a bit - i would prefer it be on the rare side.

The idea of a change in ambient music is terrific.

i imagine a lot of the folks seeking more challenge are on board with this idea as well, and scaling the champions with difficulty is a definite must, as is including their possibility in all the difficulties (even casual).

Overall, this is one of the more exciting plans i've heard about. i really like the idea of running quests i've ran countless times, but encountering randomly generated stuff like this within them.

mikarddo
11-24-2014, 03:58 AM
Very cool idea - exactly what the game needs. A bit more challenge and some unpredictability.

As for rewards - dont go overboard. This should not be about adding a huge reward but about adding some challange. Considering that many already run elite streaks or atleast hard streaks the incensitive to run those difficulties when on a streak is already present. Also, Sagas make running harder difficulties a good idea.

I simply suggest that you add an xp bonus similarly to the ones for killing mobs, smashing breakables, disarming traps etc and let us get more xp from killing enough Champions. That way you have a choice - kill the champs for more xp or bypass (when possible) for faster completion but less xp.

carcaroth
11-24-2014, 05:48 AM
Seeing as it looks like the vast majority of the responses in this thread are "yes please" I wanted to let my voice be heard.

No. Without a doubt, absolutely no. Add a checkbox or a form of opt out.

Not everyone playing this game is a completionist/epic completionist in BIS gear across the board on the most current overpowered spec and finding every little thing boringly easy. Random absurd buffs that in some cases negate a entire build concept altogether that can't be planned around due to RNG is not why I play this game. The epic ward nonsense once you get to higher levels is bad enough as it is but at least epic ward is something static that you can know ahead of time and plan for accordingly.

Continue going forward and try to balance this implementation as best you can before it hits live, I hope its a great success - but make it optional. And one day, maybe, if I ever get to the point where I find things "boringly easy" Ill step up and try it out.

Until then, if what content I could normally run becomes thick with roadblocks I cant personally overcome due to "RNG buffs in bad location invalidates your build, please reset and try again" - Ill just find another game to play.

Vanhooger
11-24-2014, 05:52 AM
I love the idea only if you use different AI, and don't penalize just melee with bigger damage like adrenaline.

Some idea:

1 - Increased stat for damage and adrenaline (strong against melee)
2 - Dispelling aura or disjunction aura (strong against melee)
3 - Very High Slashing reduction ( strong against melee)
4 - Very high prr ( strong against any melee/ ranged)
5 - Very High piercing/bludgeon damage (strong agains kiters)
6 - Epic destiny ability like boulder toss with knockdown effect ( strong against kiters )
7 - Shield deflection feat, with returning arrows to the attacker, and apply a dot each arrow, so basically if you use manyshot on the wrong champion you will be insatakilled, a sort of Miior for kiters, with a cap on stack ( strong against kiters with bow)
8 - Mantle of invulnerability ( strong against shiradi )
9 - Immunity to one type of damage ( elemental, force, light, negative ecc) ( strong against specific build like light based if Immunity to light, or necro if negative etc...)
10 - No fail save all ( strong against all dc caster )
11 - Aura of death ( mark of death ) proc every maybe 10 sec with a visual effect to be avoided ( deathblock or deathward do not protect against it) ( strong against melee)
12 - Miior type mob ( strong against no evasion user) maybe with a cap on stack
13 - If a archer type mob give em manyshot ( strong agains anybody, deadly on build with few hitpoints)
14 - Champion with energy burst ( strong against any build except for evasion)
15 - Champion with balanced attack or overwhelming force ( strong against melee )
16 - Champion that bypass MRR ( strong against non evasion )
17 - Champion with big dots ( strong against non MRR build)
18 - Teleport like Orthon ( strong aginst kiters)
19 - Disjunction arrow / Dispelling arrow
20 - Nerve venom like ability
21 - High dodge / incorporeality ( easy for caster / hard time for anything else)
22 - Champion with unbreakable invisibility ( shadarkai ), need a dispel.
23 - Champion that bypass dodge
24 - Arrow that bypass dodge and do relevant amount of dmg.
25 - Champion that bypass PRR

and so forth.

- Allow player to pick champions mode with a checkbox, this should be an options just for player that want a bit more challenge, so new player cant complain.
- Give a renown bonus for each cahmpion
- Give a % xp for champions slayed, like breakable smashed bonus
- Small chance of unique loot, like greater heroism pot/ silver flame pot / deathward pot/ greater resto pot (20x stack), 5 astral shard, upgrade tome, skill tome, ingots, dragonscale any etc
- Very tiny chance, rare shard/seal, LR, mirror of glamering etc
- Use a skill to skip champion if speed run (may help solo run against champion that are immune resistant to your build ability) or dont want exptra xp/ loot( diplomacy, bluff, intimidate etc ) high DC required, no multiple try, if you fail you fight.

My2cent.

mikarddo
11-24-2014, 07:11 AM
For those wanting this to be optional - it already is! You simply check "Normal" when you enter the quest and there you go, problem solved.

So, most definitely dont add a way for this extra challange to be optional when running on hard or elite (there should be a reason for those names afterall).

Mind, I have characters that very much cannot run elite except with a good group so its not like I just want to exclude others - I will be excluding myself at times as well - and I consider that a good think as that gives me and others a reason to group up and/or become better at the game.

Vanhooger
11-24-2014, 07:32 AM
For those wanting this to be optional - it already is! You simply check "Normal" when you enter the quest and there you go, problem solved.

So, most definitely dont add a way for this extra challange to be optional when running on hard or elite (there should be a reason for those names afterall).

Mind, I have characters that very much cannot run elite except with a good group so its not like I just want to exclude others - I will be excluding myself at times as well - and I consider that a good think as that gives me and others a reason to group up and/or become better at the game.

Most player won't accept more challenge or just don't care to be a better player and quit ddo, better be optional.

Pandir
11-24-2014, 07:35 AM
Yeah can we get a toggle on the quest menu to turns those champions off ? I might be fine to run with them once in a while but I don't want a random buffed champion to ruin a quest for me when I just want to get it done for the favor or such.
Actually if they are as numerous and random as people say they are that might just be a deal breaker for me.

I don't think the idea is bad, although frankly if I wanted to play Diablo 3 I would. But if it's optional that's no problem.


If you want to incentive them, give them a chance to dropped named items of a sort, bonus XP or whatever, a random chest doesn't do it.

Blackheartox
11-24-2014, 07:58 AM
If those chests offer nothing "special" this whole idea will be just ignored by player community.
Or if there is no "decent" xp awarded by engaging those monsters.
As i know how you guys usually do it, it will be a mob that has 000000000 added to hp and its spp scaled or melle power scaled, that offers no loot whatsover, nor any real challenge that will be equal to ammount of time lost while killing particual mob.
Most players will ignore those mobs and invisi pass them anyways.

Effort, time and money spent on a bad idea imo.

But thats just in case its as i assume, added hps to a mob with chest offering apsolutely nothing rare and no xp awarded from killing said mob.
Reminds me of panthers in kings forest, totally pointless

Vanhooger
11-24-2014, 08:02 AM
If those chests offer nothing "special" this whole idea will be just ignored by player community.
Or if there is no "decent" xp awarded by engaging those monsters.
As i know how you guys usually do it, it will be a mob that has 000000000 added to hp and its spp scaled or melle power scaled, that offers no loot whatsover, nor any real challenge that will be equal to ammount of time lost while killing particual mob.
Most players will ignore those mobs and invisi pass them anyways.

Effort, time and money spent on a bad idea imo.

But thats just in case its as i assume, added hps to a mob with chest offering apsolutely nothing rare and no xp awarded from killing said mob.
Reminds me of panthers in kings forest, totally pointless

If they just add hp and no reward I agree it's useless. It all depend on how they code the AI & reward.

Pandir
11-24-2014, 08:04 AM
Ok just reiterate. I don't want to run a quest do fine and have fun for 20 minutes than run into a champion block that I get one shotted/can't pass because of how he is rolled.
That is wasted time to me and I really don't have much time.
I hated that in Diablo 3 too but at least in Diablo 3 you don't tend to lose your whole progress because of badly rolled champion packs, and well the game got advertised in that way.

I'd prefer the system to be optional and then incentive it by adding a system like https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/452142-Champion-Tokens (as an example).
That way people that want it can have their extra reward, the ones that that don't want it can go on as they want to.

mikarddo
11-24-2014, 08:26 AM
Most player won't accept more challenge or just don't care to be a better player and quit ddo, better be optional.

I disagree. The challenge has been lessened many times over lately with the prr/mrr pass - its time to add a bit more challange.

So, it most definitely should not be optional except in the way that you can pick Normal if you dont want a hard or elite challenge. That would be similar to wanting the upped stats on mobs for elite to be optional so you could pick "normal mob stats but elite rewards"...

Taskmage
11-24-2014, 08:35 AM
You are implementing this new mechanic mainly to make the game more challenging on harder difficulties, right?
It does not add variety, it adds randomness - basically added risk without added reward.

It would be interesting to see how much of the playerbase - if they had the choice - would select the "with champions" option when running quests.

My guess:
First month after release: 90%
Second month: 20%
Third month: 2%

Yes, i don't like the idea behind this. To much potential to create roadblocks in quests that certain build can't pass. Actually, given how the system currently works, it is guaranteed that all but the most elitiest players will regualy hit quests they can't complete due to this.

Or, looking at it from another perspective: You add the "rule of 1" to quest-generation for most players.
And those not affected by this are exactly those that you add it for...

Is this really your intention?

Pandir
11-24-2014, 08:36 AM
I disagree. The challenge has been lessened many times over lately with the prr/mrr pass - its time to add a bit more challange.

So, it most definitely should not be optional except in the way that you can pick Normal if you dont want a hard or elite challenge. That would be similar to wanting the upped stats on mobs for elite to be optional so you could pick "normal mob stats but elite rewards"...

Except I'm fine with Elite how it is, I don't want nor never asked for a higher difficulty. Why not just add another difficulty on it.
Like champion diffiulty incentive them so they're worth it but not mandatory, maybe give them some unique named pieces too.
The people wanting more challenge are happy the people not wanting more challenge are happy too.

If my only options are faceroll normal or play D3&D3 then that's a deal breaker.

fmalfeas
11-24-2014, 09:34 AM
You are implementing this new mechanic mainly to make the game more challenging on harder difficulties, right?
It does not add variety, it adds randomness - basically added risk without added reward.

It would be interesting to see how much of the playerbase - if they had the choice - would select the "with champions" option when running quests.

My guess:
First month after release: 90%
Second month: 20%
Third month: 2%

Yes, i don't like the idea behind this. To much potential to create roadblocks in quests that certain build can't pass. Actually, given how the system currently works, it is guaranteed that all but the most elitiest players will regualy hit quests they can't complete due to this.

Or, looking at it from another perspective: You add the "rule of 1" to quest-generation for most players.
And those not affected by this are exactly those that you add it for...

Is this really your intention?

From what I've seen, the odds of 'can't complete' are absurdly low, unless you've pushed yourself into being more of a 1 trick pony than a Savant sorc. Even a pure monk with no points in Ninja Spy can access 2 damage types without a single point in henshin or ninja spy.

If champs encourages people to make characters that can adapt to changing situations, or that aren't 100% reliant on a single attack then I say it's an incredibly good change.

Hendrik
11-24-2014, 09:39 AM
As long as what we're seeing on Lammy is still in its infancy and will be getting some tweaks, I really like it/them.

Right now, my main concern is that there seems to be way too many of them. So much that they're not really like "Champions", just more buffed up mobs. Dial back the number of them and make each one harder, and you'll have a winner.

Sounds like you're working on the reward system still. That was my only other point of contention.

Thanks.

Spot on Dag!

The novelty wears off very fast of there are so many of them, they are no longer unique. Like Dag, I too would like to see fewer but stronger.

And to spin my own broken record, add ED abilities to them and do NOT nerf them because of difficulty like we have seen already. If not ED's, then add something to them, besides the buff, to make them more unique. Unique abilities? Maybe magic weapons? Expand spells available, if any?

Champ with Sense Weakness.
Champ with high Doublestrike/doubleshot.
If the AI can do it, self healing.
Primal Scream

The list can go on and on. If it is technically possible, the options are limitless to make a very unique and special encounter worthy of being called Champions!

Hendrik
11-24-2014, 09:41 AM
Here's an idea. How about every champion slain raises the loot table of the end chest by one level, similar to (and stacking with) a Jewel of Fortune or Dragonmark of Finding? That concept may kill two birds with one stone by increasing the droprate of named loot and especially the shard/seal/scroll problem, thus encouraging people to play higher difficulty settings.

I'm looking for a good way to get excited about encountering a champion and not dreading the experience. In my opinion, that's how it should be.

Not a bad idea at all!

Monkey-Boy
11-24-2014, 09:42 AM
I think that the people asking for more challenge are very vocal, but I'm hoping that adding champions won't drive away more casual players.

I do.

Theolin
11-24-2014, 10:06 AM
Went back in and was playing in the new quest(eveningstar) solo on EE, got about 3/4 the way to the mask - ran out of time.
(6 deaths & no worries on spell points potted several)
general info on char
prr 160, mrr 60, ac 160, hp 1100, saves 70+, & can stun @ 65+, totally geared out & past life'd out.
Incorp + blur + displace + dodge 27
Tons of healing (heal, cocoon, astrike, LOH, ... etc)

In general there was at least 1 champion per group (meaning about 20% of the mobs)
The group that got me was a group of 10 with 5 champions in it .... that was way too much, couldn't do a thing as a melee you got close you died.

The melees that had extra damage on hit were hitting for just over 600 damage.
Max I saw was 815 regular+123 cold,
I figure in a party that is insta death by the time it is scalled up for whomever they hit, this is a bit much.

This time around only ran into one caster that was a champion ... no dots & his extra damage was on melee so he had no effect on me

Ran into one orange melee, .... wow .... that was painful, one hit dead .... try again, ... one hit dead ..... try again .... one hit dead .... I think you get the idea .... only way I got around him was some twitchin & watching for his tells on swings & not being there .... i think that needs to be toned down a bit

Monkey-Boy
11-24-2014, 10:14 AM
The melees that had extra damage on hit were hitting for just over 600 damage.
Max I saw was 815 regular+123 cold,
I figure in a party that is insta death by the time it is scalled up for whomever they hit, this is a bit much.



That about fits what I observed.

Devs - is this bugged or WAI?

Theolin
11-24-2014, 10:22 AM
That about fits what I observed.

Devs - is this bugged or WAI?


Remeber that is only 40% of the full damage due to my prr ......... so that makes it right around 2000 damage if you have no mitigation.
Oh ... & then scale that for a party so at least 20% more.

Can you say OW?

Monkey-Boy
11-24-2014, 10:31 AM
Remeber that is only 40% of the full damage due to my prr ......... so that makes it right around 2000 damage if you have no mitigation.
Oh ... & then scale that for a party so at least 20% more.

Can you say OW?

1100 HP "light" melee got one-shotted when testing on Lamania. Was running Feast or Famine EE solo just to see what they could do.

I'm fine with it either way, we'll find some way to adapt to it (probably the cheesiest way possible) but I want to know if this is WAI or a bug.

redoubt
11-24-2014, 11:14 AM
Well, elite setting is supposed to be party-based, not solo-based. So even on your situation, if you was accompanied by a bard or a melee character, those buffs would be tough, but not a deal breaker for them. While your PM could not finish the mob off, you could still debuff him with energy drains, use webs, disco, holds, etc. Just because you were locked from one of your tools it doesn't make you useless.

Actually, the "immune to slash, pierce or blunt" mechanic have a higher potential to be disruptive than the immunity to a save-specific spells. Most weapon characters usually devots their feats and enhancements to improve a single weapon type. A slash-based character that is suddenly forced to use a maul will lose a lot of crit-power at high levels.

The +99 save things is supposed to be "immune to every fortitude effect" (and reflex, and will, on their categories), but parsed in a way that is easily coded into the game. +99 works as an overkill buff for elite khortos and EE Necro 4. It delivers the intended result.

Even in a group, having encounters where characters simply sit out is bad, in my opinion.

What happens when a slash based paladin runs into a mob with immunity to slash, fort bypass and 2000pt hits? They die.

There are already many reports of the damage being overtuned against melee and creating roadblocks in quests. This is something that needs to be adjusted.

Vargouille
11-24-2014, 11:26 AM
Damage Over Time: These effects stack up with multiple hits. We currently plan to change these to have an internal cooldown so that a single spell or doublestrike won't instantly put on multiple stacks. All stacks fall off at once, so there is gameplay there in backing off or switching monster aggro for a few seconds until the stacks are gone.

Regarding "blocker" Champions: The current frequency and difficulty of Monster Champions is intended to not block quest progression. For instance, some Champions are fire resistant, but none are fire immune, so even if you are purely deal fire damage it's expected you can still progress. We currently don't intend to put damage immunity on Champions.

Most Champions don't have Deathblock, and most don't have True Sight. Both are somewhat more common than other buffs, but each is below 50% for most Champions. (Mini-bosses have increased chances.)

Monkey-Boy
11-24-2014, 11:37 AM
Damage Over Time: These effects stack up with multiple hits. We currently plan to change these to have an internal cooldown so that a single spell or doublestrike won't instantly put on multiple stacks. All stacks fall off at once, so there is gameplay there in backing off or switching monster aggro for a few seconds until the stacks are gone.

Regarding "blocker" Champions: The current frequency and difficulty of Monster Champions is intended to not block quest progression. For instance, some Champions are fire resistant, but none are fire immune, so even if you are purely deal fire damage it's expected you can still progress. We currently don't intend to put damage immunity on Champions.

Most Champions don't have Deathblock, and most don't have True Sight. Both are somewhat more common than other buffs, but each is below 50% for most Champions. (Mini-bosses have increased chances.)

Is the adrenaline one-shotting 1000+ HP toons with 100ish PRR working as intended?

patang01
11-24-2014, 11:38 AM
For those wanting this to be optional - it already is! You simply check "Normal" when you enter the quest and there you go, problem solved.
Why? That's just silly. I really find these elitist attitudes nauseating. It's always better to add these as optional than to force in on people who prefer to run things on a higher difficulty but not waste time on HP bags.

lyrecono
11-24-2014, 11:52 AM
hey dev's?

make this tagged on diablo system an optional, i don't want a repeat of the U19 debacle, ranged toons only lfms and guild groups.
this way the 2% can have their epeen and we can get our favor.

even better, why not drop this vanilla-fication untill the Frenzied bezerker has it's dps returned and some of those naste bugs are fixed?

Vargouille
11-24-2014, 12:17 PM
We've found an issue where miniboss champions have inadvertently been dealing too much damage. We've adjusted that on Lamania already so if you play today they should be dealing significantly less damage (but the damage-over-time effects are not changed yet).

Tobril
11-24-2014, 12:36 PM
A few thoughts in no particular order:


Make all effects highly visible like so:

Troll
Freezing Waller Arcane Molten

Trying to hit “examine” and make out specific icons is difficult for some of us.

Symbols, visual effects, etc are also hard for many people to see compared
to basic text. (special display effects are still OK)


Make the difficulty of the added properties based on quest difficulty.

Particularly nasty combinations should be reserved for EE only.


Consider Champions sometimes accompanied by Packs.

Occasionally have these upgraded monsters have a few underlings
that have vastly increased abilities as well. The pack can have different
upgrades than the champion. It’s also acceptable for certain strange
combinations to make the pack stronger than the champion.


Avoid outright immunities and bypasses.

“Fire Immune” is bad. A high percentage of fire reduction is fine.

Full fortification bypass is bad. 50-100% (or similar numbers) is fine. – although scary, and that’s OK!


Champions should always have a reward.

Higher level chest loot, zone ingredients, XP…something. There should
be a compelling reason to tackle extra powerful monsters.


Consider making the % of champions vary per instance.

“Hot” and “Cold” runs could spice up this mechanic quite a bit.


Occasional replacement of all monsters with a different theme.

Whimsyshire.

DDO could do this with Xoriat creatures or perhaps just transplant
a similar level’s creatures.

Another option is to leave the monster stats alone and just replace
the visual appearance.

Monkey-Boy
11-24-2014, 12:46 PM
We've found an issue where miniboss champions have inadvertently been dealing too much damage. We've adjusted that on Lamania already so if you play today they should be dealing significantly less damage (but the damage-over-time effects are not changed yet).

Cool, I'll test it out tonight.

One-shotted is too much, being two-shotted is fine :)

dunklezhan
11-24-2014, 12:52 PM
Monster Champions are partially a balance response

This interested me. Perhaps a higher % chance of a champion spawning if mobs are dying very quickly?

I suggest this only with the caveat that you get the current champions working the way you want first! I'm not suggesting this be something you implement quickly!

My thinking is that:

1. Instinctively, players should get more reward for doing better - in this case moar loot, XP, whatever from killing more champions because you're mowing down mobs faster
2. It provides a way to extend the capabilities of 'dungeon scaling' based on responding to how well players are actually doing with the current difficulty.

Conceivably you could get to a point where there would be a champion in every pack, or if you're really chewing through everything then you should start getting a chance of a second champion in a given pack of mobs.

This would all be really hard to balance - which is why I'm saying version 1 needs getting right first - but in the end it might become very balanced against the capabilities of the current group indeed. They'd always be getting the right amount of challenge for them.

LongshotBro
11-24-2014, 12:59 PM
This interested me. Perhaps a higher % chance of a champion spawning if mobs are dying very quickly?

I suggest this only with the caveat that you get the current champions working the way you want first! I'm not suggesting this be something you implement quickly!

My thinking is that:

1. Instinctively, players should get more reward for doing better - in this case moar loot, XP, whatever from killing more champions because you're mowing down mobs faster
2. It provides a way to extend the capabilities of 'dungeon scaling' based on responding to how well players are actually doing with the current difficulty.

Conceivably you could get to a point where there would be a champion in every pack, or if you're really chewing through everything then you should start getting a chance of a second champion in a given pack of mobs.

This would all be really hard to balance - which is why I'm saying version 1 needs getting right first - but in the end it might become very balanced against the capabilities of the current group indeed. They'd always be getting the right amount of challenge for them.

Another intriguing possibility! This system seems to be something more than a few people are interested in, but that needs to be tread carefully to implement just right.

The idea that the champions are a response to the party's handling of the dungeon is a pretty cool notion. Like, the monsters see that there is serious trouble brewing so they send their best to meet the group.

i want to reiterate my earlier opinion though that the reward ought to be simply optional-style xp and/or some sort of champion token system redeemable for things like clickies, cosmetics and the like. i am concerned that dropping serious gear will further increase character power, which might make it easier to face champions and consequently a cakewalk for regular content. Perhaps something like gear that only gets a bonus against champions but is otherwise standard gear? Like +W vs. champions, or +saves vs. champions sort of thing.

At any rate, i hope they take their time developing this system and come up with something really innovative for DDO.

Livmo
11-24-2014, 01:08 PM
Please add a loot incentive.

For example, the Champion chest(s) can drop a collectable that can be traded to an NPC for a Champion Item and/or consumables.

There is already a similar example to this in game. The quest A Relic of a Sovereign Past (http://ddowiki.com/page/A_Relic_of_a_Sovereign_Past) has set up like this already for Adamantine Ore (http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:A_Relic_of_a_Sovereign_Past_reward_items) .

Make them menu choice items for trade-in be available based on the charecter's level at trade-in.

Please make the Champion Collectable Bound to Account. That way I can farm and put into shared bank for any of my toons to use.

Thanks!

EDIT ~ Of course this would pair nicely with a Champion mode toggle at the start of the quest and you would have to run the quest in Champion mode.

InsanityIsYourFriend
11-24-2014, 01:15 PM
We've found an issue where miniboss champions have inadvertently been dealing too much damage. We've adjusted that on Lamania already so if you play today they should be dealing significantly less damage (but the damage-over-time effects are not changed yet).


Damage immunity really should block damage (example) negative damage over time is not being blocked by DW, poison damage over time is not cured by panacea, heal, unyielding sovereignty, or neutralize poison. Small things but things nonetheless

dunklezhan
11-24-2014, 01:17 PM
i want to reiterate my earlier opinion though that the reward ought to be <snip> some sort of champion token system redeemable for things like clickies, cosmetics and the like. i
.

I like that concept rather than straight loot. Maybe CoVs or the like in epic, level-appropriate challenge collectibles on heroic? That wouldn't require the introduction of yet another crafting system, which I would be very very keen to avoid.

maddong
11-24-2014, 01:39 PM
How about the champions all have detect invis and no hook points and spawn more quickly the faster you are doing the quest (so if you are invis running thru the whole thing... Watch out!)?

EllisDee37
11-24-2014, 01:42 PM
I like that concept rather than straight loot. Maybe CoVs or the like in epic, level-appropriate challenge collectibles on heroic? That wouldn't require the introduction of yet another crafting system, which I would be very very keen to avoid.I don't hate this idea. I could envision something like:

Old* epics: ?d?+? token of the 12 fragments
New Epics: ?d?+? comms of valor
Heroic: One valuable** collectable

My thought on the ?d? might be 1d2 + quest level - 20.

*Old epics defined as any epic quest that should drop tokens of the 12 (or fragments) in the end chest.
**Valuable collectables defined as a collectable used in either cannith crafting or stone of change rituals, plus eberron dragonshards.

J-mann
11-24-2014, 01:52 PM
We've found an issue where miniboss champions have inadvertently been dealing too much damage. We've adjusted that on Lamania already so if you play today they should be dealing significantly less damage (but the damage-over-time effects are not changed yet).

Ok, ill be nicer. Your current effects are much more punishing to melee builds as opposed to ranged for the simple reason of kiting. Fix this or you will have just brought us back to where we started, ranged is king, melee go home.

Chai
11-24-2014, 02:07 PM
I would say reward with XP. People can choose to bypass the challenge by zerging normal completions, or run hard/elite, which will take more time but give more XP due to champions being worth roughly the same amount of XP as a good optional (like a wizard king optional).

Another reward possibility would be augments of bane for the type of monster defeated - if a chest appears.

Avoid blanket immunities. Going back to 2009 levels of immunities will reduce the effective tactics which will cause more FOTM building of what works and abandoning working toward stuff they are immune to anyhow.

Make a monster manual version which includes champion mastery - awards to include creature companion of whatever creature the champion mastery level was filled in for.

Seikojin
11-24-2014, 02:13 PM
Damage Over Time: These effects stack up with multiple hits. We currently plan to change these to have an internal cooldown so that a single spell or doublestrike won't instantly put on multiple stacks. All stacks fall off at once, so there is gameplay there in backing off or switching monster aggro for a few seconds until the stacks are gone.

Regarding "blocker" Champions: The current frequency and difficulty of Monster Champions is intended to not block quest progression. For instance, some Champions are fire resistant, but none are fire immune, so even if you are purely deal fire damage it's expected you can still progress. We currently don't intend to put damage immunity on Champions.

Most Champions don't have Deathblock, and most don't have True Sight. Both are somewhat more common than other buffs, but each is below 50% for most Champions. (Mini-bosses have increased chances.)

For the DoT: I say leave it as it is. Mainly because it has a workaround mechanic. Players shouldn't complain if they let 10 stacks build up and they die. Back off and let the stacks drop, or have someone else intim to pull agro off of you so you can time out the stacks. Tactics is a requirement for survival, not laziness. So again, please do not nerf the stack dots that any mob has (since tweaking the ability will most likely side-eye nerf named mobs like Miior).

Theolin
11-24-2014, 02:50 PM
We've found an issue where miniboss champions have inadvertently been dealing too much damage. We've adjusted that on Lamania already so if you play today they should be dealing significantly less damage (but the damage-over-time effects are not changed yet).


Much better, still might be a bit too deadly but at least it is in the ball bark of doable :)

Other info:

By the way those 2WF drow in that quest can dish out a lot of damage very fast :)
Quick question on WAI, I noticed that if they hit you they hit with both weapons & when they missed they missed with both shouldn't there be times when only one weapon hits?

Theolin
11-24-2014, 02:55 PM
Damage Over Time: These effects stack up with multiple hits. We currently plan to change these to have an internal cooldown so that a single spell or doublestrike won't instantly put on multiple stacks. All stacks fall off at once, so there is gameplay there in backing off or switching monster aggro for a few seconds until the stacks are gone.

Regarding "blocker" Champions: The current frequency and difficulty of Monster Champions is intended to not block quest progression. For instance, some Champions are fire resistant, but none are fire immune, so even if you are purely deal fire damage it's expected you can still progress. We currently don't intend to put damage immunity on Champions.

Most Champions don't have Deathblock, and most don't have True Sight. Both are somewhat more common than other buffs, but each is below 50% for most Champions. (Mini-bosses have increased chances.)



For the DoT: I say leave it as it is. Mainly because it has a workaround mechanic. Players shouldn't complain if they let 10 stacks build up and they die. Back off and let the stacks drop, or have someone else intim to pull agro off of you so you can time out the stacks. Tactics is a requirement for survival, not laziness. So again, please do not nerf the stack dots that any mob has (since tweaking the ability will most likely side-eye nerf named mobs like Miior).


The stacking is ok, its just for an example force missles or meteor storm where you have no chance to do anything and insta 4/5 stacks, the melee ones are not the issue. I would say one stack per action(spell or melee attack)

My real concern is with meteor storm (or something similar) where a the whole party is instantly at 5 stacks of a dot.

mikarddo
11-24-2014, 03:28 PM
Why? That's just silly. I really find these elitist attitudes nauseating. It's always better to add these as optional than to force in on people who prefer to run things on a higher difficulty but not waste time on HP bags.

Why you ask? Because hard should mean hard and elite should mean elite. Hard should not mean "easy" and elite should not mean "slightly hard".

As for me being elite - I have one build that could be considered that but I certainly also have builds that could not do elite (solo) even without champs mainly because I am not all that skilled a player to be honest - but that does not prevent me from seeing that the difficulty has been degraded significantly over time and that something should be done to restore it. If that means I am not good enough to run elite thats cool because that means I run normal or hard until I get better at the game meaning I have something to aspire to.

Now, asking for elite to remain free of actual challenges - thats just silly (in your own words). You cannot say "prefer to run on a higher difficulty" yet not accept that difficulty should be there.

Yalinaa
11-24-2014, 05:06 PM
Still the best idea is the check box for champions. If you use the champions setting, you get like +2 level on loots or something as reward.

It doesn't hurt anyone if you have that check box, and certainly will hurt several players, if you implement this system without being "optional".

In this state of the game, I don't think losing people because lazy development decisions is a good idea, and honestly, we lost a lot of players recently... so, don't kill the pugs please.

MangLord
11-24-2014, 06:15 PM
Why? That's just silly. I really find these elitist attitudes nauseating. It's always better to add these as optional than to force in on people who prefer to run things on a higher difficulty but not waste time on HP bags.

I agree completely. The other problem is that less eletist players are less likely to populate the forums, making this attitude and super-pro playstyle seem much mre common than it is. Of all the people I know and play with on Argo server, maybe 5-6 are elite ready as it is without adding in more difficulty.

Again, I see this system as counteracting the great strides made recently in giving a variety of builds more firepower, and allowing less professional players to contribute to end game raiding and higher difficulty questing with builds they like. I'm so grateful for the swashbuckler pass, because it's the perfect character for the way I like to play.

I'm currently happy with the difficulty of elite in its current state, It's not the fault of me and my friends that people choose to min/max, then whine incessantly when their uber build is steamrolling elite like it was intended to. They always have the option of rolling up an undergeared first life flavor build if they want challenge.

BDog77
11-24-2014, 06:21 PM
Why you ask? Because hard should mean hard and elite should mean elite. Hard should not mean "easy" and elite should not mean "slightly hard".

As for me being elite - I have one build that could be considered that but I certainly also have builds that could not do elite (solo) even without champs mainly because I am not all that skilled a player to be honest - but that does not prevent me from seeing that the difficulty has been degraded significantly over time and that something should be done to restore it. If that means I am not good enough to run elite thats cool because that means I run normal or hard until I get better at the game meaning I have something to aspire to.

Now, asking for elite to remain free of actual challenges - thats just silly (in your own words). You cannot say "prefer to run on a higher difficulty" yet not accept that difficulty should be there.

I personally would not mind elite being challenging, the problem with EE in this game is that an entire playstyle was made unworkable, standing toe to toe with the MOB and accepting hits while dishing out your own (ya know, basic melee, really). This playstyle worked entirely through heroics, even though some dungeons were more challenging than others, there was never a dungeon where you stood toe to toe with a single MOB and were in significant trouble. EE changed all that by raising MOBs CR, damage, and HP, invalidating most AC scores, allowing MOBs to 2-3 shot melees, and making melees spend entirely too much time to kill a single MOB (forcing the use of ghostly, blur, displacement and Master's Blitz to be of any use at all as a melee).

I think those people with legitimate concerns about this Champion system have pointed out (correctly) that once again, we seem to be moving to a situation that punishes the melee playstyle far more than the other playstyles. If this is going to remain the case, then I think asking for a button to avoid this kind of "challenge" is not unreasonable.

I think the suggestion of a Champion buff that returns a spell, or an arrow shot is a great one! How would a monkcher like to 1 shot himself on a returning Manyshot/10K stars hit? Or a shiradi Sorc to paralyze himself on a returning MM proc? Why should these buffs be mostly anti-melee? Why should melees end up standing in front of a MOB in plain sight (true seeing) in their underwear (fort bypass)?

At least make this system fair before implementing it.

J1NG
11-24-2014, 07:32 PM
Monster Champions do not appear in raids.

Are you SURE about this...?

J1NG

Qhualor
11-24-2014, 07:42 PM
I think the suggestion of a Champion buff that returns a spell, or an arrow shot is a great one! How would a monkcher like to 1 shot himself on a returning Manyshot/10K stars hit? Or a shiradi Sorc to paralyze himself on a returning MM proc? Why should these buffs be mostly anti-melee? Why should melees end up standing in front of a MOB in plain sight (true seeing) in their underwear (fort bypass)?

At least make this system fair before implementing it.

I love this idea. it should be equal opportunity.

BDog77
11-24-2014, 08:49 PM
I love this idea. it should be equal opportunity.

As a matter of fact, since we are invalidating one playstyle, we might as well get em all!

How bout a champion that is immune to ALL damage from spells and spell like abilities? Don't worry, casters, you can still kite this guy, just bring a returning dagger....

How bout another champion that is immune to all damage done from farther away than 5 feet? Whoops, time to put down the bow, and see how good evasion is within 5 feet! Good luck with that! Hope he doesn't ALSO have true seeing and Fort Bypass, or this could get.....how can I say this????....messy.

These may seem extreme, but since we are making it harder for melees to do their best damage option (hunkering down and hitting stuff), I'm just trying to even the playing field by taking other styles best damage options.

After all, hard should be harder, right? And elite should be even MOAR harder, right?

fangblackhawk
11-24-2014, 09:01 PM
my experience with champion monsters so far has been just simply wow i'm dead or "oh fish" it just wont die... didn't even notice in lords of dust that the boss that drops the golden guile had a crown over her head through all her standing aoe and my close range meteor storms and what not till i seen the second chest was suddenly there.... they need something like as you enter there area the word CHAMPION popping up on the screen in a huge font all red and a dm calling it out all "mortal combat", or some of the like and them beeing bigger like they are tr'd and they should glow maybe too lol ... more so with mini bosses

Rewards, a system all there own or using existing items ingredients ect not just vender trash for sure please or at least pretty vender trash way better chance at those special double prefix items like suns fury or obscenity mangling ect. champion craftable some thing that you level with like the new menu item that "didn't" appear in the first preview very early in it but what i could see was very interesting and would be incentive to use that toggle every one is asking for...

J-mann
11-24-2014, 09:03 PM
As a matter of fact, since we are invalidating one playstyle, we might as well get em all!

How bout a champion that is immune to ALL damage from spells and spell like abilities? Don't worry, casters, you can still kite this guy, just bring a returning dagger....

How bout another champion that is immune to all damage done from farther away than 5 feet? Whoops, time to put down the bow, and see how good evasion is within 5 feet! Good luck with that! Hope he doesn't ALSO have true seeing and Fort Bypass, or this could get.....how can I say this????....messy.

These may seem extreme, but since we are making it harder for melees to do their best damage option (hunkering down and hitting stuff), I'm just trying to even the playing field by taking other styles best damage options.

After all, hard should be harder, right? And elite should be even MOAR harder, right?

OH I know, for the dot one, why dont we make it so you get the dot regardless if you are in range of the mob or not. If you have his aggro you auto get his dot. Ranged players dont like this? well melee dont like infintely stacking dots that only affect their play style either. Oh and how about for the mobs with 100 percent fort bypass and extra damage get the same benefit? Fair is fair right? Currently the abilities are overtuned and overly antimelee.

redoubt
11-25-2014, 12:05 AM
Champion rewards:

Each champion is worth 10% base xp. If you are capped, they drop comms/seeds.

If you get a run with 10 champions you get double the base xp that run to make up for the extra time and resources it took to deal with 10 champions.

If you get a run with only 1 champion, you get 10% base xp bonus and a completion time not much different that normal.


P.S. The existing champions in the "Tear of Dhakan" are great. They sometimes spawn and sometimes don't. They are always worth xp and always have a reward. They are tougher than a normal mob, but not insanely so. (Its one of my favorite quests.)

Pandir
11-25-2014, 02:12 AM
I agree completely. The other problem is that less eletist players are less likely to populate the forums, making this attitude and super-pro playstyle seem much mre common than it is. Of all the people I know and play with on Argo server, maybe 5-6 are elite ready as it is without adding in more difficulty.

Again, I see this system as counteracting the great strides made recently in giving a variety of builds more firepower, and allowing less professional players to contribute to end game raiding and higher difficulty questing with builds they like. I'm so grateful for the swashbuckler pass, because it's the perfect character for the way I like to play.

I'm currently happy with the difficulty of elite in its current state, It's not the fault of me and my friends that people choose to min/max, then whine incessantly when their uber build is steamrolling elite like it was intended to. They always have the option of rolling up an undergeared first life flavor build if they want challenge.

This pretty much, as the champion thing stands it will invaded everybodies play. Make it a higher diffulty setting or a checkbox and it will only invade the people play that want it to be invaded.
Win Win.

mezzorco
11-25-2014, 05:09 AM
I love the idea, but would like to see an experience reward when killing champions.
I was thinking about something pretty minor, like 1% base xp per kill. Or maybe pile it up and give a chunk of xp when reaching 5 kills, then 10 and so on, similarly to how slayer works in wilderness areas.

RD2play
11-25-2014, 05:17 AM
Hey, I like this idea! but I do think you should be able to see the buffs on the mobs (actually all mobs if possible but especially champions since their buffs will be random) when you target them, you should not have to select and press Z to find out its buffs (especially since hard targeting is still bugged!), not just to see if they are a champion, crown. I would like to see icons under the `Focus orb` so you can instantly see what buffs they have, (after you learned what icon means what buff).

Thank you!

Edit: I opened another thread concerning this https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/452352-Visibility-of-Champion-Creature-Buffs

Hendrik
11-25-2014, 06:41 AM
This pretty much, as the champion thing stands it will invaded everybodies play. Make it a higher diffulty setting or a checkbox and it will only invade the people play that want it to be invaded.
Win Win.

Well, they could add 4 checkboxes when you enter the quest where you can choose how hard the quest should be.

They could make it so the lower settings do not have Champs and the higher settings have them.

That way people can choose how hard the quest can be as well as if there will be champs or not.



History in DDO has shown over and over players take the path of least resistance so they have the auto-win. To that end, players will choose not to have champs due to the fact there will be resistance to the entitled auto-win.

EH/EE should not have an opt out for Champs, EC/EN are the available options to opt-out.

Pandir
11-25-2014, 07:04 AM
Well, they could add 4 checkboxes when you enter the quest where you can choose how hard the quest should be.

They could make it so the lower settings do not have Champs and the higher settings have them.

That way people can choose how hard the quest can be as well as if there will be champs or not.



History in DDO has shown over and over players take the path of least resistance so they have the auto-win. To that end, players will choose not to have champs due to the fact there will be resistance to the entitled auto-win.

EH/EE should not have an opt out for Champs, EC/EN are the available options to opt-out.

Hence why you should incentive the champs, give a reason to run them without altering the already existing settings.

There have been Ideas how to make champions worth it without going over the top, why change the existing difficulty settings for everyone instead of just adding 2 more harder ones.

FestusHood
11-25-2014, 07:05 AM
Well, they could add 4 checkboxes when you enter the quest where you can choose how hard the quest should be.

They could make it so the lower settings do not have Champs and the higher settings have them.

That way people can choose how hard the quest can be as well as if there will be champs or not.



History in DDO has shown over and over players take the path of least resistance so they have the auto-win. To that end, players will choose not to have champs due to the fact there will be resistance to the entitled auto-win.

EH/EE should not have an opt out for Champs, EC/EN are the available options to opt-out.

The gap in difficulty between epic normal and epic elite is enormous. With the most recent changes to defenses, a lot of players who could only handle epic hard are now able to have a reasonable chance to complete epic elites. Now adding champions, with no option to have them or not, puts it right back where it was before. So tell me, what is the point of buffing one side, and then buffing the other so that you end up exactly the same as it was before you did anything?

Let's improve prr and mrr so that melees don't get one shotted. Then, let's buff the mobs so that they can again one shot players with the new defenses. Just seems pointless to me.



Why are you so against the idea of this being an option? Saying hey , just play normal, is as inane as somebody telling you to play naked if you want challenge. Seriously, what is it that makes you hate non uber players so much? You know they pay a lot of money into this game right? Why do you want this game to die?

IronClan
11-25-2014, 07:42 AM
they need something like as you enter there area the word CHAMPION popping up on the screen in a huge font all red and a dm calling it out all "mortal combat"

Um... no.

IronClan
11-25-2014, 08:07 AM
History in DDO has shown over and over players take the path of least resistance so they have the auto-win. To that end, players will choose not to have champs due to the fact there will be resistance to the entitled auto-win.

EH/EE should not have an opt out for Champs, EC/EN are the available options to opt-out.

Agreed, on a different note it's funny how stridently everyone's calling for DDO to be made harder because it's just too easy... yet there seems to be resistance at the same time to anything that puts any variables into the 100% completion 100% of the time entitlement.

So do people really want DDO to be harder, or do they really want to talk a good game while sounding all "hard" and "elite" but have a 100% completion ratio?

The real question is what does the majority of the DDO player base view as an acceptable failure rate for the difficulty levels?

Lets put money where mouth is, you guys don't seem to want anything less than 100% completion rates and quick 100,000 XP chunks... otherwise there wouldn't so many people doing nightly Wizking and Von3's. These same people are the ones who are against champions, because they present a variable that can not be meta gamed to triviality before the quest starts.

If the difficulties were re-worked to be more challenging what would be an acceptable risk level?

25% chance of failure on EE? Oh how the forums would HOWL!...

Yalinaa
11-25-2014, 09:05 AM
I don't like selfish players.
I still think it's more easier to design a simple check box than organize a server merge a couple of months later.
I did a lot of pugs recently, and man, they try hard to carry their own weight, even if they are not on a level as top players. Epic normal is zero challenge for them, but some nasty champion can 1 shot them on EH/EE - and such things drive away players.
The top guys will still kick every champions' a***, the elite players who can run every quest blindly won't suffer a second. But a lot of those guys, who are also playing this game, but only has a couple of hours per week, won't tolerate such things as wasting those times on failures. They will go and find other games. And why? Because selfish players was forcing them. The selfish players who want this game works only one way, their way.
I really don't like selfish players.

Vargouille
11-25-2014, 09:29 AM
Are you SURE about this...?

Current Lamannia build doesn't yet have the checks to prevent Raid Champions, but we have it working internally.


melee dont like infintely stacking dots that only affect their play style either.

All "On-Hit" Champion buffs trigger for ranged and spellcasting Champions, as well as melee. We realize that kiting isn't the same as standing face to face, but we expect distant player characters to be affected. Lamannia already has some other buffs, such as movement speed buffs or applying movement speed debuffs, that don't really impact melee who are not kiting at all but affect other play styles.

Pandir
11-25-2014, 09:34 AM
Agreed, on a different note it's funny how stridently everyone's calling for DDO to be made harder because it's just too easy... yet there seems to be resistance at the same time to anything that puts any variables into the 100% completion 100% of the time entitlement.

So do people really want DDO to be harder, or do they really want to talk a good game while sounding all "hard" and "elite" but have a 100% completion ratio?

The real question is what does the majority of the DDO player base view as an acceptable failure rate for the difficulty levels?

Lets put money where mouth is, you guys don't seem to want anything less than 100% completion rates and quick 100,000 XP chunks... otherwise there wouldn't so many people doing nightly Wizking and Von3's. These same people are the ones who are against champions, because they present a variable that can not be meta gamed to triviality before the quest starts.

If the difficulties were re-worked to be more challenging what would be an acceptable risk level?

25% chance of failure on EE? Oh how the forums would HOWL!...

I've actually not asked for harder diffifulties the game is fine for me as is(I also don't like random that can lead up to insane combinations, didn't like it in Diablo3 don't like it here).
I can see how some people want it harder hence I'm fine with adding an option for it with some added incentive, I don't want it in my runs though unless I explicitly check it.
I also don't want my only opt out to be facerolling normal.

Oh and I don't run wiz-kings nor von3 all too often. I'm not overly concerned with xp per hour just with fun and I'm fine with how it is at the moment :P.

Qhualor
11-25-2014, 09:44 AM
Check boxes will mostly say "no champions" and the result will be wasted dev time for something hardly used. Can't interfere with paths of least resistance and entitlement to highest difficulty.

I haven't found them to be THAT difficult and I've run a variety of quests. They take an extra few hits maybe and there are a few tweaks that need to be made to balance out the damage. Log onto Lama, run some quests and see for yourself. You will find that you overreacted and believed more forum bull instead of seeing for yourself.

Pandir
11-25-2014, 09:57 AM
Check boxes will mostly say "no champions" and the result will be wasted dev time for something hardly used. Can't interfere with paths of least resistance and entitlement to highest difficulty.

I haven't found them to be THAT difficult and I've run a variety of quests. They take an extra few hits maybe and there are a few tweaks that need to be made to balance out the damage. Log onto Lama, run some quests and see for yourself. You will find that you overreacted and believed more forum bull instead of seeing for yourself.

As I mentioned above you can give incentives to them, a single trash chest of course won't cut it.

I will check if I get the chance this weekend, I don't like it as a forced addition to the quests but I should not completely condemn it without trying I guess.

patang01
11-25-2014, 10:24 AM
Check boxes will mostly say "no champions" and the result will be wasted dev time for something hardly used. Can't interfere with paths of least resistance and entitlement to highest difficulty.

I haven't found them to be THAT difficult and I've run a variety of quests. They take an extra few hits maybe and there are a few tweaks that need to be made to balance out the damage. Log onto Lama, run some quests and see for yourself. You will find that you overreacted and believed more forum bull instead of seeing for yourself.

I'm not much for hyperbole, but I'm very ambivalent about the idea that most people will do that and they ain't no big thang.

Personally I don't mind the added challenge of randomly getting smacked with lots of damage in 'trivial' encounter. What I mind is wasting my time half way into a quest for the chance of a random trash loot chest. So I suspect that 'most' people saying no to champions (if they add that as an option) will be because there's no incentive to beat up HP bags anyways. Such as XP or proper rewards. Without incentive there's really no point to include it at all.

mikarddo
11-25-2014, 10:26 AM
I personally would not mind elite being challenging, the problem with EE in this game is that an entire playstyle was made unworkable, standing toe to toe with the MOB and accepting hits while dishing out your own (ya know, basic melee, really). This playstyle worked entirely through heroics, even though some dungeons were more challenging than others, there was never a dungeon where you stood toe to toe with a single MOB and were in significant trouble. EE changed all that by raising MOBs CR, damage, and HP, invalidating most AC scores, allowing MOBs to 2-3 shot melees, and making melees spend entirely too much time to kill a single MOB (forcing the use of ghostly, blur, displacement and Master's Blitz to be of any use at all as a melee).

I think those people with legitimate concerns about this Champion system have pointed out (correctly) that once again, we seem to be moving to a situation that punishes the melee playstyle far more than the other playstyles. If this is going to remain the case, then I think asking for a button to avoid this kind of "challenge" is not unreasonable.

I think the suggestion of a Champion buff that returns a spell, or an arrow shot is a great one! How would a monkcher like to 1 shot himself on a returning Manyshot/10K stars hit? Or a shiradi Sorc to paralyze himself on a returning MM proc? Why should these buffs be mostly anti-melee? Why should melees end up standing in front of a MOB in plain sight (true seeing) in their underwear (fort bypass)?

At least make this system fair before implementing it.

I completely agree that the system has to be reasonably fairly weighted against diffent playstyles. Thats quite removed from the principle of making it mandatory on hard/elite though as far as I can see. Normal should be the norm, hard should be hard and elite only for the elite (in which case it probably wont include me on a regular basis, which is ok because that gives me something to aspire to) - and those champs might help bring that to life.

Yalinaa
11-25-2014, 10:35 AM
Check boxes will mostly say "no champions" and the result will be wasted dev time for something hardly used. Can't interfere with paths of least resistance and entitlement to highest difficulty.

I haven't found them to be THAT difficult and I've run a variety of quests. They take an extra few hits maybe and there are a few tweaks that need to be made to balance out the damage. Log onto Lama, run some quests and see for yourself. You will find that you overreacted and believed more forum bull instead of seeing for yourself.

Why do you care what OTHERS will do??!! They are NOT you! If you want to use champions, fine, if you don't want to use that option, is fine too!
Why would be wasted dev time? You surely can go in and enjoy this new feature, so it can not be wasted time! What others will do, it's THEIR business, if they don't like this option, deal with it, it's not affected YOUR playing time at all! Don't be so selfish, don't force people to play as you play!

Seikojin
11-25-2014, 10:38 AM
Current Lamannia build doesn't yet have the checks to prevent Raid Champions, but we have it working internally.



All "On-Hit" Champion buffs trigger for ranged and spellcasting Champions, as well as melee. We realize that kiting isn't the same as standing face to face, but we expect distant player characters to be affected. Lamannia already has some other buffs, such as movement speed buffs or applying movement speed debuffs, that don't really impact melee who are not kiting at all but affect other play styles.

I think champions in raids would be awesome! Please leave that enabled! Raids are the culmination of group awesome, and having champions in there would definitely add the challenge elite raiders cry for. Please leave it on.

Yalinaa
11-25-2014, 10:45 AM
So I suspect that 'most' people saying no to champions (if they add that as an option) will be because there's no incentive to beat up HP bags anyways. Such as XP or proper rewards. Without incentive there's really no point to include it at all.

That's something I agree with. If it's just random vendor trash you could get for champion kills, you prolly better to forget the whole thing.

FestusHood
11-25-2014, 11:01 AM
Agreed, on a different note it's funny how stridently everyone's calling for DDO to be made harder because it's just too easy... yet there seems to be resistance at the same time to anything that puts any variables into the 100% completion 100% of the time entitlement.

So do people really want DDO to be harder, or do they really want to talk a good game while sounding all "hard" and "elite" but have a 100% completion ratio?

The real question is what does the majority of the DDO player base view as an acceptable failure rate for the difficulty levels?

Lets put money where mouth is, you guys don't seem to want anything less than 100% completion rates and quick 100,000 XP chunks... otherwise there wouldn't so many people doing nightly Wizking and Von3's. These same people are the ones who are against champions, because they present a variable that can not be meta gamed to triviality before the quest starts.

If the difficulties were re-worked to be more challenging what would be an acceptable risk level?

25% chance of failure on EE? Oh how the forums would HOWL!...

You seem to subscribe to the fallacy that the what? 30 or so people that regularly post on the forums are a perfect representation of the opinions of the general populace of players.

Even within this tiny, tiny minority of the players posting on these forums, there is far from a consensus about whether or not the game is currently too easy or not.

Adding an option for more difficulty is a fine idea. Removing options on difficulty choice is not a good idea in my opinion.

I know far too many non uber players, including myself, to ever accept the notion that everybody thinks the game is too easy. In fact, i would need to see hard data to even be convinced it is close to a majority.

FestusHood
11-25-2014, 11:38 AM
Check boxes will mostly say "no champions" and the result will be wasted dev time for something hardly used. Can't interfere with paths of least resistance and entitlement to highest difficulty.

I haven't found them to be THAT difficult and I've run a variety of quests. They take an extra few hits maybe and there are a few tweaks that need to be made to balance out the damage. Log onto Lama, run some quests and see for yourself. You will find that you overreacted and believed more forum bull instead of seeing for yourself.

If what you are saying is true, and most people will not choose to have champions, then that would be a pretty good indicator of what people actually want, don't you think?

Many people are asking for a higher difficulty above elite. The champions system can essentially provide the same thing, depending on how they tweak it. If there is no option to not have it, then it will actually be reducing the choices from what we have now. There will be no difficulty for people who currently find epic hard to be an appropriate challenge. There may well end up being no difficulty for people who currently find epic elite to be an appropriate challenge.

lyrecono
11-25-2014, 11:39 AM
Well, they could add 4 checkboxes when you enter the quest where you can choose how hard the quest should be.

They could make it so the lower settings do not have Champs and the higher settings have them.

That way people can choose how hard the quest can be as well as if there will be champs or not.



History in DDO has shown over and over players take the path of least resistance so they have the auto-win. To that end, players will choose not to have champs due to the fact there will be resistance to the entitled auto-win.

EH/EE should not have an opt out for Champs, EC/EN are the available options to opt-out.


hard and elite should have a opt out at all times, not everyboddy lives in their parrents basement all day farming gear/pastlives and i'm realy sure i don't want to deal with added on nonsence when i'm forced to do Elite for favor/streaking on content that i have already payed for.
Not having an opt out on all difficulties weighs in on the decision to shell out for future content



Check boxes will mostly say "no champions" and the result will be wasted dev time for something hardly used. Can't interfere with paths of least resistance and entitlement to highest difficulty.

I haven't found them to be THAT difficult and I've run a variety of quests. They take an extra few hits maybe and there are a few tweaks that need to be made to balance out the damage. Log onto Lama, run some quests and see for yourself. You will find that you overreacted and believed more forum bull instead of seeing for yourself.

when i want more of a challange i will role up a new toon (i advice that 2% that yap about making things harder to do the same)
given half the change i will opt out every chance i get, not only because i thing melee's have a hard enough time as it is but also i think this is a waste of development time.

the 2% wants a harder game? give m a check box that makes things more interesting
fortrification only working on fullplate, no pastlives, no ED's, bucklers not counting as whields for fighter stances etc

Thar
11-25-2014, 11:41 AM
I'm not much for hyperbole, but I'm very ambivalent about the idea that most people will do that and they ain't no big thang.

Personally I don't mind the added challenge of randomly getting smacked with lots of damage in 'trivial' encounter. What I mind is wasting my time half way into a quest for the chance of a random trash loot chest. So I suspect that 'most' people saying no to champions (if they add that as an option) will be because there's no incentive to beat up HP bags anyways. Such as XP or proper rewards. Without incentive there's really no point to include it at all.

This just sets up to waste time and resources. Since most quests have shrines spaced out relative to the content this will cause more spell useate, healing needed with no in quest way to recover. If random... it is possible you hit none or you hit champions on every mob. *unlikely yes but statistically possible. The quest isn't built to recover spells for any increase in difficulty so how will you complete? you don't so you log out and rerun. what is the fun in that. We all like a challenge. We all hate to waste time (especially when 48,000,000 xp needed for epic completionist + how ever much for heroic...)

Should be a limit of # available to trigger per quest.
no silly random effects that instakill players like the shirardi adrenaline effect. Who wants to be hit with that in water works?
kiting? if your not a ranged build, it's just a time waste. how is that fun. make it not just another large meatbag. Can you imagine a done of them in stormhorns where they already have 10k hp... seriously... more hp isn't a challenge it's a annoyance. tactics, buffs, etc. are what they need to have.
rewards - trash loot isn't appropriate. drop augs, chance at store loot or something cool with them appropriate to level.

Hendrik
11-25-2014, 12:07 PM
The gap in difficulty between epic normal and epic elite is enormous.



Why are you so against the idea of this being an option? Saying hey , just play normal, is as inane as somebody telling you to play naked if you want challenge. Seriously, what is it that makes you hate non uber players so much? You know they pay a lot of money into this game right? Why do you want this game to die?

The gap needs to be there, otherwise why have any choice in difficulty at all? I will concede that the gap, in some cases, should be revisited - IMO Whelooooon, the 'Horns, and thunderholm should be prime candidates. But I also believe some, I said some, of the "fault" lies within the players. Going into EE thinking your going to pwn based off EN/EH experiences is a fallacy that should stop otherwise we continue down this path of dumbing down end game setting because some are not just ready for it. Then we end up right here, those that are ready for it are facerolling through it due to it being dumbed down, requesting more of a challenge, and people end up leaving because there is no more challenge.

Where did I say I was against the option? The option is the lower settings. But if people are so scared of loosing an encounter then fine; no Champs on EN, champs at half strength on EH, and full strength on EE. Better yet, no champs in EN and EH. ONLY Champs in EE with appropriate rewards.

Again, where did I come out and say I hate non uber toons? That's right, I didn't. What I am beginning to hate is the constant claims of wanting/needing more of a challenge and when it is delivered it is demanded to be nerf'd or options of bypassing the challenge that has been requested over and over.

Again, where did I say I want this game to die? Just the opposite.

I could ask you; why do you want to turn this game further into a casual, solo, auto-attack snoozefest? Why do you want to cater to the casual all the while driving out all those that are not? Trying to get all those you game with to quit?

At least I am honest in what I want out of DDO.

I want every single encounter in EE to potentially be the death of me and my party - yes, I play in groups in MMO's!

I in no way play/own uber toons, far from it! I can count the number of TR's and eTRs on one hand with fingers left over, account wide.

Hendrik
11-25-2014, 12:21 PM
Agreed, on a different note it's funny how stridently everyone's calling for DDO to be made harder because it's just too easy... yet there seems to be resistance at the same time to anything that puts any variables into the 100% completion 100% of the time entitlement.

So do people really want DDO to be harder, or do they really want to talk a good game while sounding all "hard" and "elite" but have a 100% completion ratio?

The real question is what does the majority of the DDO player base view as an acceptable failure rate for the difficulty levels?

Lets put money where mouth is, you guys don't seem to want anything less than 100% completion rates and quick 100,000 XP chunks... otherwise there wouldn't so many people doing nightly Wizking and Von3's. These same people are the ones who are against champions, because they present a variable that can not be meta gamed to triviality before the quest starts.

If the difficulties were re-worked to be more challenging what would be an acceptable risk level?

25% chance of failure on EE? Oh how the forums would HOWL!...

Nice to read I am not alone in my thoughts Iron.

And you ask a very good question; acceptable failure rates.

Me?

EC: 0%
EN: 5-10%
EH: 20%
EE: 40% or more

But right now they are all 0% until you hit EE, then maybe, MAYBE, 5-10%.

I think you put your money on the right spot Iron, your 100% correct.

Think what harder/more difficult content would do for the lack of LFMs! It would take more then just one FOTM build to do EE content, people would NEED each other to survive. Now that is a gaming/adventuring experience I want to have again in DDO.

Scrabbler
11-25-2014, 12:22 PM
This refrain of people saying they'll be encouraged to use Normal difficulty to avoid meeting Monster Champions is one of the reasons Monster Champions should appear on Normal too.

Hendrik
11-25-2014, 12:26 PM
I don't like selfish players.
I still think it's more easier to design a simple check box than organize a server merge a couple of months later.
I did a lot of pugs recently, and man, they try hard to carry their own weight, even if they are not on a level as top players. Epic normal is zero challenge for them, but some nasty champion can 1 shot them on EH/EE - and such things drive away players.
The top guys will still kick every champions' a***, the elite players who can run every quest blindly won't suffer a second. But a lot of those guys, who are also playing this game, but only has a couple of hours per week, won't tolerate such things as wasting those times on failures. They will go and find other games. And why? Because selfish players was forcing them. The selfish players who want this game works only one way, their way.
I really don't like selfish players.

EN does not have champs so they can still faceroll it and think they are uber.

Respectfully, no. They might leave because it has been ingrained in them that failing is bad.

Failing is ONLY bad if you do not learn from it.

Hendrik
11-25-2014, 12:32 PM
Check boxes will mostly say "no champions" and the result will be wasted dev time for something hardly used. Can't interfere with paths of least resistance and entitlement to highest difficulty.

I haven't found them to be THAT difficult and I've run a variety of quests. They take an extra few hits maybe and there are a few tweaks that need to be made to balance out the damage. Log onto Lama, run some quests and see for yourself. You will find that you overreacted and believed more forum bull instead of seeing for yourself.

Correct.

This breathes some much need life into Epic!

Auto-attack would have to be turned off and some actual tactical thought put into combat with Champs, god, wouldn't that be nice!

Pandir
11-25-2014, 12:33 PM
EN does not have champs so they can still faceroll it and think they are uber.

Respectfully, no. They might leave because it has been ingrained in them that failing is bad.

Failing is ONLY bad if you do not learn from it.

Look I have no interest in facerolling, EE for me is exactly the difficulty I want it to be for me now.
Add new difficulties on top of it but do not take anything away, is that concept so hard ?

Qhualor
11-25-2014, 12:35 PM
If what you are saying is true, and most people will not choose to have champions, then that would be a pretty good indicator of what people actually want, don't you think?

Many people are asking for a higher difficulty above elite. The champions system can essentially provide the same thing, depending on how they tweak it. If there is no option to not have it, then it will actually be reducing the choices from what we have now. There will be no difficulty for people who currently find epic hard to be an appropriate challenge. There may well end up being no difficulty for people who currently find epic elite to be an appropriate challenge.

Yep. Challenge is mostly all talk and obstacles, as minor as they may be, interfere with progression. Just like everything else in this game, anything considered too tough is overcome when majority figures something out eventually or it gets the casualizationhammer.

There should not be a higher difficulty than elite. That's another difficulty that people will complain is too tough and want the rewards from it, but can't because only "2%" can complete. Elite should be for elite players, hard for hard players, normal for normal players and casual for casual players. This is not the case currently in game. Everyone feels justified for elite and refuse to drop down to a difficulty that suits them because "why should i ?"

Hendrik
11-25-2014, 12:37 PM
hard and elite should have a opt out at all times, not everyboddy lives in their parrents basement all day farming gear/pastlives and i'm realy sure i don't want to deal with added on nonsence when i'm forced to do Elite for favor/streaking on content that i have already payed for.


IMO, your argument is lost when you resorted to insults and was further hurt claiming you are forced to run streaks.

That is something we all know to be false - nobody is forcing you to choose any difficulty. It is a choice and you are the one making it.

Qhualor
11-25-2014, 12:39 PM
Why do you care what OTHERS will do??!! They are NOT you! If you want to use champions, fine, if you don't want to use that option, is fine too!
Why would be wasted dev time? You surely can go in and enjoy this new feature, so it can not be wasted time! What others will do, it's THEIR business, if they don't like this option, deal with it, it's not affected YOUR playing time at all! Don't be so selfish, don't force people to play as you play!

Why do you care so much about my opinion?

If you don't want champions than either avoid them or drop to a lower difficulty. Have you actually ran some quests on Lama to see for yourself? If those champions are causing you too much trouble, than I suspect the problem is more than the champions.

Hendrik
11-25-2014, 12:40 PM
Look I have no interest in facerolling, EE for me is exactly the difficulty I want it to be for me now.
Add new difficulties on top of it but do not take anything away, is that concept so hard ?

What will you say when EE holds nothing for you? You will be here asking for more of a challenge in end game settings.

I have not requested anything be taken away. I am in full support of ADDING these champs to Epic content.

Adding checkboxes would be taking something away.

Pandir
11-25-2014, 12:44 PM
What will you say when EE holds nothing for you? You will be here asking for more of a challenge in end game settings.

I have not requested anything be taken away. I am in full support of ADDING these champs to Epic content.

Adding checkboxes would be taking something away.

I doubt that day will come, and yeah you taking something away by altering a difficulty level I enjoy so I possibly won't enjoy it as much or at all.
You do add something if you add an extra options for more challenge, all that this really needs is proper incentives.

Why not champion tokens that you can trade in for named rewards or possibly raid loot at a slow pace ?


And if all you want is more challenge then tick the box, what does it bother you if others check it or not ?

Or how about this, nodge up EH too EE, only champs in EE. Full favour on any difficulty setting. So EH is the new EE and EE is the new difficulty setting. Then no special loot incentives for the Champs
but the quests should pay out the best XP/min in addition to having the higher drop chance. Of course then you upset the people that like EH as it is.

zwiebelring
11-25-2014, 12:52 PM
IMO, your argument is lost when you resorted to insults and was further hurt claiming you are forced to run streaks.

That is something we all know to be false - nobody is forcing you to choose any difficulty. It is a choice and you are the one making it.


Yeah, nobody is forcing me to play this game, either. But the dev.s force me to take a risk, if I want to have max. favor. We are talking about repetitive questing here. DDO character creation has more variety than DDO dungeons have and ever will. I am sure I don't want to have challenge in waterworks any more. Challenge has to be in endgame, not the past live grind. While Champions will give a new flavor at first, even they will lose it like every dungeon does and mostly become timesinks, more so, if they do not give any incentive except making it harder.

They are nothing else but those random champion encounters in Diablo2, for example and the golden monsters with minions. And all I can say to this is: Stink - Fist the Cold.... yeah, awesome idea.

Yawn.

p.s.: If they made it by checkboxes, I know my checkbox for Champions would be unchecked all the time. And while this means wasted time for the dev.s, it still was meant to be an option, so having it unchecked is a risk, they were willing to take. But probably, they will not. We have to play they want.

p.p.s.: Champions worked, if they are activated by yellow to red dungeon alert. That's cool for me. The group has alerted the dungeon, so finally that retired NPC Kobold will take action and bring order to his beloved sewer system, without nasty adventurers plundering and hacking through his or her folk.

patang01
11-25-2014, 01:05 PM
This just sets up to waste time and resources. Since most quests have shrines spaced out relative to the content this will cause more spell useate, healing needed with no in quest way to recover. If random... it is possible you hit none or you hit champions on every mob. *unlikely yes but statistically possible. The quest isn't built to recover spells for any increase in difficulty so how will you complete? you don't so you log out and rerun. what is the fun in that. We all like a challenge. We all hate to waste time (especially when 48,000,000 xp needed for epic completionist + how ever much for heroic...)

Should be a limit of # available to trigger per quest.
no silly random effects that instakill players like the shirardi adrenaline effect. Who wants to be hit with that in water works?
kiting? if your not a ranged build, it's just a time waste. how is that fun. make it not just another large meatbag. Can you imagine a done of them in stormhorns where they already have 10k hp... seriously... more hp isn't a challenge it's a annoyance. tactics, buffs, etc. are what they need to have.
rewards - trash loot isn't appropriate. drop augs, chance at store loot or something cool with them appropriate to level.

That's how I see it as well; some quests have few shrines and you're just about tapped out with your blue bar when you get there. That's at least how I play - learn how to conserve resources. Now if they add it as an option I'd say yes if there was a proper incentive every single time. I don't mind random features as long as they add something to the bottom line. That's why we run von 3 anyways - the chance for a red named with more xp.

I've read a few options now that include a champion token and to me that sounds interesting. I'd love for a system like that where you could turn it in for a heroic comm or something similar.

This to me is like the bosses in the crystal cove wilderness where you beat up HP bags and get nothing in return for it. Make it rewarding, optional or don't include it at all.

Psiandron
11-25-2014, 01:14 PM
All "On-Hit" Champion buffs trigger for ranged and spellcasting Champions, as well as melee. We realize that kiting isn't the same as standing face to face, but we expect distant player characters to be affected. Lamannia already has some other buffs, such as movement speed buffs or applying movement speed debuffs, that don't really impact melee who are not kiting at all but affect other play styles.

You realize that the hit rate isn't even close to the same for varying builds. For on hit procs, melees with greater swing speed and archers with manyshot and/or 10k stars will get punished a lot more than melees with lower swing rates and normal rate archers.

Casters can switch to higher base damage spells with fewer impacts and will face far less risk.

Maybe there's a stack limit or some other ameliorating factor and I just missed that bit of info. If so I'm sorry. Else, you should rethink this whole concept.

FestusHood
11-25-2014, 01:30 PM
The gap needs to be there, otherwise why have any choice in difficulty at all? I will concede that the gap, in some cases, should be revisited - IMO Whelooooon, the 'Horns, and thunderholm should be prime candidates. But I also believe some, I said some, of the "fault" lies within the players. Going into EE thinking your going to pwn based off EN/EH experiences is a fallacy that should stop otherwise we continue down this path of dumbing down end game setting because some are not just ready for it. Then we end up right here, those that are ready for it are facerolling through it due to it being dumbed down, requesting more of a challenge, and people end up leaving because there is no more challenge.

Where did I say I was against the option? The option is the lower settings. But if people are so scared of loosing an encounter then fine; no Champs on EN, champs at half strength on EH, and full strength on EE. Better yet, no champs in EN and EH. ONLY Champs in EE with appropriate rewards.

Again, where did I come out and say I hate non uber toons? That's right, I didn't. What I am beginning to hate is the constant claims of wanting/needing more of a challenge and when it is delivered it is demanded to be nerf'd or options of bypassing the challenge that has been requested over and over.

Again, where did I say I want this game to die? Just the opposite.

I could ask you; why do you want to turn this game further into a casual, solo, auto-attack snoozefest? Why do you want to cater to the casual all the while driving out all those that are not? Trying to get all those you game with to quit?

At least I am honest in what I want out of DDO.

I want every single encounter in EE to potentially be the death of me and my party - yes, I play in groups in MMO's!

I in no way play/own uber toons, far from it! I can count the number of TR's and eTRs on one hand with fingers left over, account wide.


You are so certain that everybody is pwning epic elite content? I assure you that there are plenty of people who are not. No, not just people who started playing a week ago. People who have been playing for years. Not everybody is talented at playing video games. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to enjoy playing them.

I would rather keep options and add more as opposed to removing options. At least as far as this goes.

Shadow2024
11-25-2014, 01:33 PM
I also disagree with the checkbox option. We might as well add options for:
-All Monsters are CR1
-Players cannot die
-XP x1000
-Auto named item loot

or for challengers
-No destiny allowed
-No melee attack allowed (would that patch your whining for melee gonna be kill more than any other classes?)

So yea, i think Champions will and should always be part of the game. Like few says, if you dont want more challenge and like to play casually, go play casual/normal...it will take longer but that will fit your playstyle. Elite players will play EH/EE and get challenges up to their talents.

Also, i like the idea of adding Token or stuff from champions to buy potions and stuff.
Or add few xp reward, something like 50 per cr of monster/quest would be ok for me. 2x for epic quest maybe?

Also, rarer, stronger Champions!
I think with that, that will make scouting more important in groups!

FestusHood
11-25-2014, 01:46 PM
I've read a few options now that include a champion token and to me that sounds interesting. I'd love for a system like that where you could turn it in for a heroic comm or something similar.

This to me is like the bosses in the crystal cove wilderness where you beat up HP bags and get nothing in return for it. Make it rewarding, optional or don't include it at all.

I would rather see a simple credit system. I think it's in their interest at this point to never introduce another thing which has any possibility of being duped.

I would not want them to only offer a few things as possible rewards for the credits. I would want a list so large that there would be something desirable to everyone playing the game. All of these things would be consumable, with the possible exception of cosmetics. Provide a reason for people to keep wanting them.

fmalfeas
11-25-2014, 02:15 PM
I just thought of something...

Devs...please, for the love of Gygax...make it so Air Elementals can't become Champions (except in the Tomb of Horrors if you ever release that, where hideous, sanity-breaking, TPKfest things are to be expected).

Seikojin
11-25-2014, 02:30 PM
I just thought of something...

Devs...please, for the love of Gygax...make it so Air Elementals can't become Champions (except in the Tomb of Horrors if you ever release that, where hideous, sanity-breaking, TPKfest things are to be expected).

I think it would be cool to have to work air eles from afar. That is the best way to deal with them now.


You realize that the hit rate isn't even close to the same for varying builds. For on hit procs, melees with greater swing speed and archers with manyshot and/or 10k stars will get punished a lot more than melees with lower swing rates and normal rate archers.

Casters can switch to higher base damage spells with fewer impacts and will face far less risk.

Maybe there's a stack limit or some other ameliorating factor and I just missed that bit of info. If so I'm sorry. Else, you should rethink this whole concept. Hit and run tactics still would work, so I don't see a problem.


The stacking is ok, its just for an example force missles or meteor storm where you have no chance to do anything and insta 4/5 stacks, the melee ones are not the issue. I would say one stack per action(spell or melee attack)

My real concern is with meteor storm (or something similar) where a the whole party is instantly at 5 stacks of a dot. Team based tactics would eliminate 95% of this issue. Narrow corridors being the exception. However kiting tactics still would rule the day.

Theolin
11-25-2014, 02:35 PM
Was doing EE DA & I think you have an issue with the chance of an orange mob being a champion
I only did the first wave
In the first wave of things the bat sets, every single orange devil was a champion .... 3 per spawn * 3 spawns
Otherwise the normal mobs were about 20%
For the approximately 40ish crowned guys I only got 4 chests - all from orange

As for the crown itself, if you have a mob that has been cursed you cannot see the crown.
I would also like the crown to be about 40% bigger to be easier to see, it is difficult when there is a group of mobs to notice.
And maybe down on their head instead of above where the other stuff appears.

Oh and speaking of being able to see things, as a special flavor,
I would love an option for my mouse pointer to be florescent purple so I can find the *()&^$(^)*$)()*&^*%$$# thing when it gets messy
Ok maybe just a nice color picker for the pointer, or heck even 3-5 choices, or something anything at all

patang01
11-25-2014, 03:42 PM
I also disagree with the checkbox option. We might as well add options for:
-All Monsters are CR1
-Players cannot die
-XP x1000
-Auto named item loot

or for challengers
-No destiny allowed
-No melee attack allowed (would that patch your whining for melee gonna be kill more than any other classes?)

So yea, i think Champions will and should always be part of the game. Like few says, if you dont want more challenge and like to play casually, go play casual/normal...it will take longer but that will fit your playstyle. Elite players will play EH/EE and get challenges up to their talents.

Also, i like the idea of adding Token or stuff from champions to buy potions and stuff.
Or add few xp reward, something like 50 per cr of monster/quest would be ok for me. 2x for epic quest maybe?

Also, rarer, stronger Champions!
I think with that, that will make scouting more important in groups!
Why add an argument when you can simply use reductio ad absurdum statements. We're not talking about changing hard or elite as it is, we're talking about making an addition to it option. No one here is arguing for making it 'easier'. Just as 'easy' as it was before if you want to, with added challenge as option. So why do you suggest that people who like hard and elite as they are now should suddenly start playing casual or normal? I just don't get silly juvenile statements like that.

patang01
11-25-2014, 03:44 PM
I would rather see a simple credit system. I think it's in their interest at this point to never introduce another thing which has any possibility of being duped.

I would not want them to only offer a few things as possible rewards for the credits. I would want a list so large that there would be something desirable to everyone playing the game. All of these things would be consumable, with the possible exception of cosmetics. Provide a reason for people to keep wanting them.

And that's fine with me. I'd like a reason to want to challenge myself instead of a random arbitrary 'challenge' thrown into it that may or may not drop useless loot. I don't find anything to like about that.

Scrabbler
11-25-2014, 04:28 PM
Lamannia already has some other buffs, such as movement speed buffs or applying movement speed debuffs, that don't really impact melee who are not kiting at all but affect other play styles.
When the monster has a ranged or caster style, then buffing his speed or debuffing player speed does indeed have a strongly negative effect on melee people. Imagine the Beholders in the balloon section of Terminal Delirium if they could debuff your (already-reduced) speed.

nibel
11-25-2014, 05:15 PM
So do people really want DDO to be harder, or do they really want to talk a good game while sounding all "hard" and "elite" but have a 100% completion ratio?

People want it to be easy enough so that they can complete, but hard enough so that no one else can. So that they can get bragging rights, or sell the loot there.

Myself, I love random stuff. encourages more tactical approach instead of "one size beat all"

delduath
11-25-2014, 05:54 PM
If you've been questing on Lamannia, we'd love to get your feedback on something new that's been added to Update 24 in our most recent build: Monster Champions! From the Release Notes:

Ran EE Haywire and Devils Assult on Lama.
Noticed a big difference in difficulty.
Didn't know about champions until after getting pounded and failing miserably. Then read about them. Went back into the quests and they spawn quite often. I'd say too often.

Didn't get any chest drops in Haywire, but had like 10 chest drops in DA. Strange.
10 chest drops filled up my inventory... and made me not look fwd to yet another chest.
Also the fun factor is lost when multiple champions spawn at the same time (loses novelty... and I get slaughtered, which is also not fun)

I do like the idea of champions and randomness and challenge but I think balance and implementation needs to be worked on. Too random and too many detracts from the feel of the game, makes it feel... purely computer generated. Maybe do it a bit like a random encounter where you normally wouldn't see a mob (a mini optional quest). Or only buff one of the mobs in an area to make it really seem like a champion... make him say things and bark out orders...

lyrecono
11-25-2014, 07:28 PM
What will you say when EE holds nothing for you? You will be here asking for more of a challenge in end game settings.

I have not requested anything be taken away. I am in full support of ADDING these champs to Epic content.

Adding checkboxes would be taking something away.

bit egotistical, not everybody has the same goals or playstyles, some of us just want to have fun with friends, we're not competing in your "special" olympics.
the content is already badly ballanced on elite from lv 16 and up, esp for melee's, though for full plate wearing toons things became easier between 16-20, but the damage output from mobs in EE is downright stupid, even with fullplate. Since so little people seem to enjoy playing a healer these days and expect others to be on a self healing toon when one does join.
in other words, we don't like the mandetory change to the, what we already consider unbalanced, content.
waste the dev's time asking for more hurdles thrown your way for all i care (instead of, you know going into a bad ED, taking less powerfull gear or make a fresh new toon, you know, the far more cost effective way of dealing with a overworked underpaid dev staf).
but don't force it on us normal people!


Give us opt out on all difficulties!

J-mann
11-25-2014, 09:15 PM
Current Lamannia build doesn't yet have the checks to prevent Raid Champions, but we have it working internally.



All "On-Hit" Champion buffs trigger for ranged and spellcasting Champions, as well as melee. We realize that kiting isn't the same as standing face to face, but we expect distant player characters to be affected. Lamannia already has some other buffs, such as movement speed buffs or applying movement speed debuffs, that don't really impact melee who are not kiting at all but affect other play styles.

I realize this Varg, but unless you are buffing all melee mobs (which are the greatest percent of mobs in the game) with super speed (meaning even with a max range shot you'll get one, maybe two attacks before they are on you), being melee means I HAVE to take the hits from these champs to kill them, the ranged archetype merely kites them. Further many, many ranged attacks and spells can be kited and dodged many times more efficiently as a ranged than as a melee. Point is almost all the buffs you have come up with are largely or entirely anti-melee so we are trying to offer suggestions to some abilities that champs can have that can challenge ranged as well. Some champs should get deflect/reflect arrows, some champs should get spell/greater spell mantel, some champs should have spell absorbs or spell reflects, maybe give some a spell that does extra damage the further a player is from him, stuff like this to at least try to not make kiting the correct response to 90% of champs.

As for the dots, ranged players are entirely immune to the dot mob if its melee (unless it also has super speed, or can slow you at range, even then...), and are less likely to take hits from even the ranged mobs because it is much easier to avoid the shots by strafing at range than in melee. Let me reiterate that I like the Champion idea to an extent, I just feel that it is rather unbalanced at the moment and could use a few more anti-ranged mechanics and a few of the mechanics could use a little dialing back.

redoubt
11-26-2014, 12:26 AM
Nice to read I am not alone in my thoughts Iron.

And you ask a very good question; acceptable failure rates.

Me?

EC: 0%
EN: 5-10%
EH: 20%
EE: 40% or more

But right now they are all 0% until you hit EE, then maybe, MAYBE, 5-10%.

I think you put your money on the right spot Iron, your 100% correct.

Think what harder/more difficult content would do for the lack of LFMs! It would take more then just one FOTM build to do EE content, people would NEED each other to survive. Now that is a gaming/adventuring experience I want to have again in DDO.

I will admit that after this many years of playing, I pretty much expect to complete. At the same time, I've completed 20 runs of Mark of Death, but started 30. All of those were on normal. I wasn't overly upset because I expected failures in it and because even if we failed, it was only 10-15 minutes that was lost each time. And we never failed twice in a row.

I will also admit that my tolerance for failure in a quest is directly related to its duration. I can tell you that after running to WGU (even from teleport) and being in there over an hour and figuring out only at the end fight that we simple were not going to be able to complete was very frustrating. Mostly due to the mechanics of the quest. I would feel the same sort of frustration if I spent a lot of time in a quest and then ran into a champion that had a combination of buffs that my group simply could not overcome. While I'm being honest here, its a response to the constant nerfing/massive system changes and end game being the XP/min TR train. Back when the level cap was 10 we failed a lot. Same clear up to level 20. It never bothered me much. I was never in a hurry to level up back then. Now that the goal has moved to level as fast a possible and TR again, failing quests makes me mad. (I'm not saying Turbine should make stuff easier, I'm simply explaining a position on the issue and how I arrived at it.)

What is the current failure rate for me?
On my Main:
EH: 1% (I'm sure weird stuff happens once in while. Might be more like .5%)
EE: 20-50% in my static duo group. 10% or less when we have more people. It varies wildly with the quest composition for us at this time.
Even on my main, we mostly run EH for quick, guaranteed completions. We are steadily working in more EE quests and learning how to run them well. EE holds challenge for us still.

On my Alts:
EH: 1%.
EE: 50%+ for our small groups. Gets better with more joining in.

All that said, I generally agree with your position. Up to, not including EE, chance for failure for a vet is very low (approaching zero.) Then EE makes a huge jump. In fact I would call it a completely different game.

I think on the whole, EH could be made harder. EE, for me is about right. So I could see a small increase in difficulty there, but not with blanket immunities and such (the old epics were not much fun in my opinion.) With the increase in difficulty, the xp should go up. I don't run as much EE as I do EH because it takes longer and uses more resources and the reward increase is less than the difficulty increase. For me and my friends, EE is anywhere from 50-100% harder than EE. There are quests we simply won't try on EE yet. If EE gave double the xp and loot of EH, we would try it a lot more. As it is now, we go for it on the easier ones that we know well and use them as a training ground, but when we get our "zerg on" we drop down to EH.


People want it to be easy enough so that they can complete, but hard enough so that no one else can. So that they can get bragging rights, or sell the loot there.

Myself, I love random stuff. encourages more tactical approach instead of "one size beat all"

Agreed on the first point. I get that same impression from a lot of people around here.

As for random, I do like that a lot. I actually love this Champion concept. I'm just concerned about the implementation.

To go back over a couple points on it:

Spawn rate:
normal: 1% chance of a mob becoming a champion
hard: 2%
elite: 3%
Respawns do not become champions.
This allows them to be tough fights (but not impossible, please) without completely turning every quest into a resource hog.

Reward:
champions give 10% base xp per champion killed. (See my comments about xp being better on EH and EE above; this makes higher difficulty champions worth more xp.)
Capped characters get comms similar to how they do now in end rewards. (I.e. if you run under level on EE you get lots, if you run over level on normal you only get a couple.)
Add more things that comms can be traded for. (i.e. comms of heroism.)

If the reward is good enough, then the checkbox is okay to have. If having the box checked results in a double duration of the quest, but also twice the xp AND a handful of comms, then people might check yes. But for folks who cannot or don't have the time right then, unchecking the box allows for the normal duration completion, but at the cost of not getting the extra xp and comms. You have a risk/reward and cost/benefit option that way.

Yalinaa
11-26-2014, 05:08 AM
I would say a check box is a must (just see this topic, over 10 pages while anything else has almost zero interest in lamma section), and champions need to give worthy reward. People has plat cap toons (I already have 3), so random vendor trash is a big NO. Last time I checked AH there were several 100 stacks of golem hearts, crushing waves and other augments on it, so anything goes to a bag is a big NO - even if they fixed duping, it will come back via other methods, sadly. Pumping up the quest xp if you use champion setting would be the best idea.

I usually start solo EE GH Tor to make it faster, and when reaching boss, or black dragon, group always has 3-4 players. Of course I don't wanna deal with champions in main quest, when I'm only there for helms, so when farming I could use an unchecked box. If I do xp runs (even solo), a higher xp on quests like Deal and Demon, Trial by Fury etc. would be great and still won't make the quests last much longer.:)

Check box is a win/win in my opinion.

And one more thing. When I'm killing the giants in Tor EE, yes, I think it's not that hard - for my toon. But it doesn't mean I think every players and their mothers are soloing the same way EE Tor and the other quests.

Neomarica
11-26-2014, 05:14 AM
People want it to be easy enough so that they can complete, but hard enough so that no one else can. So that they can get bragging rights, or sell the loot there.

Myself, I love random stuff. encourages more tactical approach instead of "one size beat all"

Or easy enough that they can win, yet hard enough to "feel" challenging...

nibel
11-26-2014, 07:29 AM
Check box is a win/win in my opinion.

I only support the checkbox option if it also comes with a second checkbox to remove Epic Ward. I miss my stat damage and charms on epics. Sometimes I play on Normal just to have fun charming.

BOgre
11-26-2014, 08:39 AM
Now that the goal has moved to level as fast a possible and TR again, failing quests makes me mad. (I'm not saying Turbine should make stuff easier, I'm simply explaining a position on the issue and how I arrived at it.)

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with the majority of your post, but why is the above "the goal"? Are our characters SO much better off after riding the TR train? Are we as players? I'm on that train too, but I'm in ZERO rush to get to the end of it. It's not fun, it's a grind, and in the back of my mind I can't escape the idea that it plays directly into Turbines rediculous reincarnation cash grabbing.

So no, for me, and for certain other people I play with, TRing as fast as possible is not only NOT the goal, it's the opposite of the goal.

PrimalConcreteSledge
11-26-2014, 09:25 AM
Yes plz Turbine. True seeing to everyone!

Also Divine Grace beeing removed on quells intersection would be grand.

Then we'll see if ee is still easy when we remove the easy buttons.

Oxarhamar
11-26-2014, 10:08 AM
Now, don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with the majority of your post, but why is the above "the goal"? Are our characters SO much better off after riding the TR train? Are we as players? I'm on that train too, but I'm in ZERO rush to get to the end of it. It's not fun, it's a grind, and in the back of my mind I can't escape the idea that it plays directly into Turbines rediculous reincarnation cash grabbing.

So no, for me, and for certain other people I play with, TRing as fast as possible is not only NOT the goal, it's the opposite of the goal.

Different players different goals Bogre.

That being said with the lack of things to do at the nonexsistance EndGame TR ITR ETR seams to be the only option right now.

Although the if players want to tar as fast as possible I don't see this being an issue for Epics since Normal is the fastest path. For heroics 1 & done Elite streak method would be effected.

cru121
11-26-2014, 10:59 AM
for heroic quests, make champions optional, but required for bravery bonus.
for epic quests, don't make champions optional.

redoubt
11-26-2014, 11:06 AM
Now, don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with the majority of your post, but why is the above "the goal"? Are our characters SO much better off after riding the TR train? Are we as players? I'm on that train too, but I'm in ZERO rush to get to the end of it. It's not fun, it's a grind, and in the back of my mind I can't escape the idea that it plays directly into Turbines rediculous reincarnation cash grabbing.

So no, for me, and for certain other people I play with, TRing as fast as possible is not only NOT the goal, it's the opposite of the goal.


Different players different goals Bogre.

That being said with the lack of things to do at the nonexsistance EndGame TR ITR ETR seams to be the only option right now.

Although the if players want to tar as fast as possible I don't see this being an issue for Epics since Normal is the fastest path. For heroics 1 & done Elite streak method would be effected.

Just for clarification, I'm not a 1-28 in a week player either. 1-20 in a 2 to 3 weeks and 20-28 in a couple more. We elite streak heroic and then run mostly EH. EH is more xp than EN and is not significantly more difficult. EE is better xp still, but the increase in difficulty makes it less efficient.

My point in mentioning the goal of leveling and TR'ng (vs loot collection) is to lead into the idea of using XP (good xp) as a reward in the new champion system. (I think we all realize that they probably will not drop loot that makes it worth fighting them.)

Dagolar
11-26-2014, 12:01 PM
Also, it is bad to have mechanics that only show up on Hard/Elite.

The only difference between Normal and Elite should be the stat numbers of monsters and traps... the monsters shouldn't be more numerous, use different rules, or get any new abilities (that couldn't also show up in a higher-level Normal dungeon).

Completely disagree. Hard is for solo-challenge, or basic party play. Elite is for challenging party play. [As per long-standing dev commentary and in-game hovertext.]

Adding a feature that by its nature is intended to add challenge, to the one difficulty not designed for challenge, is.. counter-intuitive, at best.

Now, I never play normal- like most people- so it's not a personal preference.

Rather, having seen what people do play normal, it really seems as if adding champions there would really irk the casual and new players that run it, more than somehow benefit them.

Dagolar
11-26-2014, 12:05 PM
I definitely would encourage the addition of xp/other benefits than just loot for champions as well. Loot is really passable, so if possible, many parties will just skip the champions- or even for completionists like those I usually run with, we'll feel more of a 'meh, it's a distraction' than 'hey, we beat it and got rewards, woo!'.

Of course, a major factor of this is how little we care about basic loot drops.

A major, major thing that could be done to make champions enticing is to give them a very small chance at dropping champion-drop-only named loot [likely based more on level range of the champion than on area, given the complexity of that].

Kinda like the old Ioun Stones and the like, before they- and everything else- became super easy to get.

April_Kinslayer
11-26-2014, 01:51 PM
I don't know if it's already been suggested, but how about Champions auto-granting party members Commendations of Valor? Kinda like how we can currently get token fragments, except this would be guaranteed...say 10 Comms on Normal, 20 on EH, and 50 on EE? Just a thought.

Thar
11-26-2014, 02:48 PM
Current Lamannia build doesn't yet have the checks to prevent Raid Champions, but we have it working internally.



All "On-Hit" Champion buffs trigger for ranged and spellcasting Champions, as well as melee. We realize that kiting isn't the same as standing face to face, but we expect distant player characters to be affected. Lamannia already has some other buffs, such as movement speed buffs or applying movement speed debuffs, that don't really impact melee who are not kiting at all but affect other play styles.

who wants to kite a 10k hp giant around in stormhorns for an hour hitting it with a 20 hp throwing axe.

Scrabbler
11-26-2014, 02:58 PM
so if possible, many parties will just skip the champions
Many people have said that they plan to "skip" fighting Monster Champions. Have they actually tried fighting against Monster Champions?

I mean, they're not super-powerful. The dangerous thing about Monster Champions is if a couple of them spawn near you in an ambush room or something, and they murder you before you can really react. But in situations where you can see the champs ahead of time, then you can probably kill it safely with only a little more time spent than normally.

If you weren't skipping monsters anyway, why would you skip champs?

FestusHood
11-26-2014, 03:26 PM
What will you say when EE holds nothing for you? You will be here asking for more of a challenge in end game settings.

I have not requested anything be taken away. I am in full support of ADDING these champs to Epic content.

Adding checkboxes would be taking something away.

Currently we have the following difficulties. I don't include casual as i honestly know nobody that runs this difficulty.

n,h,e = 3.

If they implemented Champions with the ability to opt out of it, it would look like this.

n,h,h+,e,e+ = 5. Most important is that nothing currently available is removed. Why keep the current difficulties available? For the same reason that when Mcdonald's decided to add salads to their menu, they did not stop selling hamburgers. Now it's quite possible that if they had begun selling only salads they might have revolutionized the fast food industry, and crushed all other fast food chains out of existence. But I don't think so. Apparently, neither did they.

Implemented without an opt out, it would look like this.

n,h+,e+ = 3. The important thing here, is that they are different options from the ones that are currently on live.

I used to have a friend who was a math wiz that claimed he could write up a mathematical "proof" that showed that 1+1=3. I never asked him to show me, i wouldn't have understood it anyway.

I won't ask you to show me the method which allows you to believe that 3 is more than 5.

With an option, you can have what you want, and i can have what i want. You check the box, i don't. Or maybe i do sometimes, and sometimes you don't. Choices. It's a beautiful thing.

You sound like a mom that forces her kids to eat liver, even though they hate it, because it's "good" for them.

Don't be that mom. The people that hated liver stopped eating it as soon as it became possible to do so. Now, extrapolate that to DDO.