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Batilla
11-12-2014, 02:15 AM
Is it possible to run an effective int to damage Arcane Archer via the Harper Agent tree? if so what race would be best for the build? If it's not viable just how crazy am I for thinking that it might be?

Synthetic
11-12-2014, 07:12 AM
It's a trade off. You need insightful reflexes and you may still want dex for combat archery. You really need to get that it pretty high to make up for the loss of str boosts. I'm not really sure you gain damage from kta above what youd get from str, but the ranged power and extra favored enemies may make it worth while.

Wh070aa
11-12-2014, 07:14 AM
You can do it?

I am doing 3 arti/11 ranger int based human(for ddor) Harperr/DWS.
Its pretty good in heroics. Haven't gotten to epics on it yet, but it has more repeater damage than pure artificer (and less stat spread(unless you want the epic dex 21 feat, which you probably want)).
Edit: Got to epics. Its sweet. Adrenaline is awesome.6 arti,12ranger, and 2(I took barbarian(for passive movement speed), should had taken bard(active dobleshoot)).
Problem is that is really enchantment strawed. Would not recommend elf racial tree, altho you can (just barley ) squeeze it in.

How effective are you talking about ? Able to do EE, or just epics?

What else you want? Bow build? Melee capable? Healing?
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TLDR: Yes you can, but its not the best possible, and you need to say more build goals/play style you want, if you want more precise answer.

unbongwah
11-12-2014, 09:05 AM
It depends on what the rest of your build is like, since if you go the INT-to-dmg route, you'll be missing out on STR-based DPS buffs like Primal Scream, Ram's Might, Power Surge, Titan's Grip, Demonic Might, etc. [For the purposes of this discussion, I'll presume Know the Angles vs Div Might is a wash.] Plus you're not really saving build pts since you need base DEX 21 for Combat Archery; not a must-have, but certainly a really-nice-to-have on a ranged-focused build. What does the pure-INT route get you that a STR+CHA-w/Bow STR & Div Might build - or even a DEX+INT-based elven AA w/Grace+KtA - does not?

Grailhawk
11-12-2014, 09:10 AM
It depends on what the rest of your build is like, since if you go the INT-to-dmg route, you'll be missing out on STR-based DPS buffs like Primal Scream, Ram's Might, Power Surge, Titan's Grip, Demonic Might, etc. [For the purposes of this discussion, I'll presume Know the Angles vs Div Might is a wash.] Plus you're not really saving build pts since you need base DEX 21 for Combat Archery; not a must-have, but certainly a really-nice-to-have on a ranged-focused build. What does the pure-INT route get you that a STR+CHA-w/Bow STR & Div Might build - or even a DEX+INT-based elven AA w/Grace+KtA - does not?

Over the STR+CHA build it will save you a feat or two if you don't have Ranger level since Bow Strength is expensive but that's a small (if not non existent) sub set of builds. Maybe some kind of bow rogue could come out of this...

unbongwah
11-12-2014, 09:34 AM
Over the STR+CHA build it will save you a feat or two if you don't have Ranger level since Bow Strength is expensive but that's a small (if not non existent) sub set of builds. Maybe some kind of bow rogue could come out of this...
Since OP is posting to the rgr forum, I presume they'll have Bow STR already. And odds are they'll go at least rgr 4+, which means they'll also have Ram's Might (+2 STR). If they go FotW like a lot of AA rgrs, they'll also have Primal Scream (+5 STR). So right off the bat, pure INT-based is at a disadvantage compared to STR-based.

Like you say, where Harper becomes interesting is non-rgr-based AAs who can't afford Bow STR, such as monk 6 / pal 14 split (10K Stars + Holy Sword); in which case, INT-based (Strategic Combat+Know the Angles) or DEX-n-INT-based (Grace+KtA) becomes a viable alternative to STR-based.

Grailhawk
11-12-2014, 09:55 AM
Since OP is posting to the rgr forum, I presume they'll have Bow STR already. And odds are they'll go at least rgr 4+, which means they'll also have Ram's Might (+2 STR). If they go FotW like a lot of AA rgrs, they'll also have Primal Scream (+5 STR). So right off the bat, pure INT-based is at a disadvantage compared to STR-based.

Yes its a lose of 7 STR which is not insignificant but the stat consolidation of Reflex Save, To-Hit, and Damage might actually be worth the loose of 7 STR especially if you don't have Improved Evasion.

As for the Dex+Int vs Int well that's harder but I would imagine that the 9 Ranged power you can get by being more focused in the Harper tree then the Elven tree is a better deal, even if its not better I don't see Dex+Int as being a no brainier choice.

Also given that there are +6 Tomes in the store 21 Dex really isn't that hard to achieve if you want it 15 Base + 6 Tome = 21 Dex 15 base Dex isn't going to really be a hard ship.

Like you said class split is going to be what pushes you one way or the other, but all three are viable.

unbongwah
11-12-2014, 11:45 AM
Also given that there are +6 Tomes in the store 21 Dex really isn't that hard to achieve if you want it 15 Base + 6 Tome = 21 Dex 15 base Dex isn't going to really be a hard ship.
I don't like counting Store tomes in build discussions unless people explicitly state that have or will be buying them. For one thing, I don't want to discourage folks who already resent DDO's "P2W" elements; and at 1595 TPs, +6 tomes aren't exactly cheap.

I mean, I'm dumb enough to buy Store tomes, but I try to keep it within reason. ;) I don't want others to feel like they have to do so too, though.

Grailhawk
11-12-2014, 11:50 AM
I don't like counting Store tomes in build discussions unless people explicitly state that have or will be buying them. For one thing, I don't want to discourage folks who already resent DDO's "P2W" elements; and at 1595 TPs, +6 tomes aren't exactly cheap.

I mean, I'm dumb enough to buy Store tomes, but I try to keep it within reason. ;) I don't want others to feel like they have to do so too, though.

~$15.95 is cheaper then a night at the movies and playing the build you want should last at least that long and for most people a good deal longer. But ya its not a requirement by any means just an option.

bsquishwizzy
11-12-2014, 01:31 PM
Yes its a lose of 7 STR which is not insignificant but the stat consolidation of Reflex Save, To-Hit, and Damage might actually be worth the loose of 7 STR especially if you don't have Improved Evasion.

As for the Dex+Int vs Int well that's harder but I would imagine that the 9 Ranged power you can get by being more focused in the Harper tree then the Elven tree is a better deal, even if its not better I don't see Dex+Int as being a no brainier choice.

Also given that there are +6 Tomes in the store 21 Dex really isn't that hard to achieve if you want it 15 Base + 6 Tome = 21 Dex 15 base Dex isn't going to really be a hard ship.

Like you said class split is going to be what pushes you one way or the other, but all three are viable.

You know, some of this debate I’m having with my current Ranger (Ranger Woes post).

The elven racial tree looks to be a better deal – in my opinion – as you’ll most likely be taking the elven weapons proficiencies on the way to Grace, and arcane fluidity for the armor (maybe – this seems a minor point for something like an AA). Post lvl 20, I’m not 100% sure what you’re dealing with, but my thoughts are that your main ED is going to be Sharardi, and most of that is DEX-focused. INT-focused destinies are a little on the “meh” side, in my opinion. So you might be losing out in the long run.

Likewise, you switch to dual-wield, you can get DEX-to-damage on daggers (Assassin) or Grace gives you DEX-to-Damage on longswords. Not to mention doubleshot / doublestrike bonuses from elf. Contrast this with the INT modifier, and the INT insightful bonus (only half) that lasts for a short period of time, and costs SP. I think Know the Angles is nice for tactics (Tempest), but I think you’ll fall short in the long run with a ranged toon.

I think that if you were looking at Ranger / Wizard, or an elf Wizard that decided to go AA via the racial tree, Harper would be WAY more enticing (which was another thing I was considering).

Mind you: I’m not sitting here with a calculator, poring over the maths looking for actual numbers. Just looking at options available in the various trees.

Grailhawk
11-12-2014, 02:45 PM
You know, some of this debate I’m having with my current Ranger (Ranger Woes post).

The elven racial tree looks to be a better deal – in my opinion – as you’ll most likely be taking the elven weapons proficiencies on the way to Grace, and arcane fluidity for the armor (maybe – this seems a minor point for something like an AA). Post lvl 20, I’m not 100% sure what you’re dealing with, but my thoughts are that your main ED is going to be Sharardi, and most of that is DEX-focused. INT-focused destinies are a little on the “meh” side, in my opinion. So you might be losing out in the long run.

Likewise, you switch to dual-wield, you can get DEX-to-damage on daggers (Assassin) or Grace gives you DEX-to-Damage on longswords. Not to mention doubleshot / doublestrike bonuses from elf. Contrast this with the INT modifier, and the INT insightful bonus (only half) that lasts for a short period of time, and costs SP. I think Know the Angles is nice for tactics (Tempest), but I think you’ll fall short in the long run with a ranged toon.

I think that if you were looking at Ranger / Wizard, or an elf Wizard that decided to go AA via the racial tree, Harper would be WAY more enticing (which was another thing I was considering).

Mind you: I’m not sitting here with a calculator, poring over the maths looking for actual numbers. Just looking at options available in the various trees.

I see it differently what i see is that 9 RP > 3 DS and a +4 damage. +1/2 Int Mod will be long run more then double +4 damage and Angles is designed in such a way that its 100% up as long as you know how to watch the timers. At least when it comes to Elf vs Harper I'm nearly positive that Harper wins.

Issue is that Its not that clear as there are other tress and whats to stop an elf from dipping in to harper or a harper from dipping into elf there's some optimal balance but I'm not sure where it is, and i think its not going to all that different no matter what you pick as your main stat.

unbongwah
11-12-2014, 03:08 PM
Issue is that Its not that clear as there are other tress and whats to stop an elf from dipping in to harper or a harper from dipping into elf there's some optimal balance but I'm not sure where it is, and i think its not going to all that different no matter what you pick as your main stat.
I ran thru some numbers in this post (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/450957-Holy-Monkcher-Theory?p=5465690&viewfull=1#post5465690).

ddorimble
11-12-2014, 04:33 PM
I ran thru some numbers in this post (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/450957-Holy-Monkcher-Theory?p=5465690&viewfull=1#post5465690).

In practice, Int for hit/damage will most likely end up a little ahead of Dex for hit/damage, just because it's easier to focus max that single ability, vs having to max both Dex and Int.

Assuming you COULD perfectly max both those stats, on a 14 Pal/6 Monk Elf, Dex would end up ahead of Int by about +2 Elf, +2 Elf Enh, +2 ED Dex (why not), -2 Earth Stance, +7 Levels = +11.

So this means Dex = Int + 11. I don't know what a good value is, let's start with 50 Dex, which gives us 39 Int.

50 Dex / 39 Int: Damage = 20 (Dex) + 7 (Int) = +27
60 Dex / 49 Int: Damage = 25 (Dex) + 9 (Int) = +34

Although like I said, I think it's more likely Dex will be Int + 15 or so, because I doubt you'll max both so easily...so instead of +27/+34, I'd think more like one or two points lower than that.

So anyways, if we went Int instead, I'll just take +2 Int from Harper and +7 levels for +9, so we'll end up -2 from our +11 Dex difference.

48 Int Damage = 19 + 9 = +28
58 Int Damage = 24 + 12 = +36

I don't think it's enough of a difference to stress over, maybe +2/+3 damage in favor of Int, so I'd just consider the other aspects:

You'll probably want Insightful Reflexes (potentially a serious deal breaker if you're not using Fighter levels or Ranger levels for feats)
Lots of skill points, but not necessarily anything good to spend them on if you don't have some Rogue/Artificer
Itemization is probably easier

Strength still has so many other bonuses, so if you can get Bow Strength, I'd probably still aim for Str for Damage and Int for Hit (Harper), Reflex save (Ins Ref), and KtA (Harper). If you're getting Bow Strength you're probably working some Ranger and Fighter levels and can probably work in Insightful Reflexes relatively easily. This way you can prioritize Str/Int/Con. Of course with Bow Strength you can go Divine Might instead of KtA if you want. You also don't NEED the Elf Enh if you're Ranger, so you can go deeper in Harper for more Ranged Power if you want. Since we're in the Ranger section, this would be my recommendation.

If you're not going to be able to get Bow Strength (14 Pal/6 Monk), I'd probably go with Dex for Damage (Elf), Hit, Reflex save and then Int for KtA (Harper). Insightful Reflexes is too costly when you have to buy all those Ranged feats and you're working through the Elf tree to AA anyways so Dex-to-Damage with Longbows is just a few more AP. This prioritizes Dex/Int/Con.

Oxarhamar
11-12-2014, 07:27 PM
It worth note that focus in Harper tree can grab you Improved Deception on your weapon if your willing to tier 5 it.

Get min DEX for combat archery max Int and pick up insightful relfexes