Singular

11-08-2014, 01:10 AM

EDIT: I got a fair bit of the math incorrect here. Cthru clears my errors up below. But we still need to work out a few more comparisons if we're going to be obsessive about it. See below for details.

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I wanted to again compare TH weapons to Needle because of overwhelming critical.

A few assumptions:

- not accounting for precision (up to +30%)

- max seeker (17), max deadly (11)

- not adding in sneak damage, since it would be the same for both

- ignoring the red/orange slot, since it can be equal for both weapons

- Int damage is set at 23 (56 int is pretty easy to reach now)

- all feats appropriate for repeaters – improved critical, point blank range, etc

- NOTE: all values above what my assumptions are that are added to base damage increase Needle’s dps greater than Thunderholme’s b/c of its crit multiplier.

- This is for fleshies, not wf. To make it for toasters, add 0.5 to the weapon die. I didn’t add this for two reasons: most people lose it on arties pretty fast b/c of gear swapping and it’s extra maaaaaath.

NOTE: this isn't dps. To get that, multiply the damage numbers by your bolts per second (15 alacrity = ~113/min; 20 alacrity = ~117/min; twitch = ~ 120/min). Remember to add in the extra damages via rubies, phlebotomizing, dragon's edge, etc.

Damage sources:

Weapon: (2-12) for N, rounded to 7; (1-10) for TH, rounded to 5.5 (interestingly, this gives them both almost the same base multiplier)

Weapon bonus: +8 N, +12 TH

Int: +23

Int: +11 (from Know the Angles)

Deadly: +11

Battle Engineer: +5 (+3 core, +2 enhancement)

Prowess for Needle or Epic Litany: +4

ED bonus: +6

N = 70

TH =74

Added Critical Damage:

Battle Engineer: +3 to crits

Seeker: +12

Exceptional Seeker: +5

= 20

Weapon multipliers:

Deadly: +1

Point Blank Range: +1

Combat Archery: +1

Needle: +2.5

Th: +4.5

Criticals:

17-20 = +[*3] for N; [*2] for TH

19-20 = +[*1] for Devastating Critical in LD

19-20 = +[*1] for OC

Ok, so the math looks like this (this equation is from the base damage above - N=70, TH=74; the column below starts at that no. and adds up to +20):

Needle, base: [5.5(7)+70]*0.75+[3*(5.5(7)+90)]*0.1+[4*(5.5(7)+90)]*0.1+0(0.05)*1=

TH, base: [7.5(5.5)+74]*0.75+[2*(7.5(5.5)+94)]*0.1+[4*(7.5(5.5)+94)]*0.1+0(0.05)*1=

Results:

Needle: ... TH:

197.025 ... 181.1125

198.675 ... 182.5625

200.325 ... 184.0125

201.975 ... 185.4625

203.625 ... 186.9125

205.275 ... 188.3625

206.925 ... 189.8125

208.575 ... 191.2625

210.225 ... 192.7125

211.875 ... 194.1625

213.525 ... 195.6125

215.175 ... 197.0625

216.825 ... 198.5125

218.475 ... 199.9625

220.125 ... 201.4125

221.775 ... 202.8625

223.425 ... 204.3125

225.075 ... 205.7625

226.725 ... 207.2125

228.375 ... 208.6625

230.025 ... 210.1125

For every additional point of damage that is multiplied,

Needle=(n*0.75)+(4n*0.1)+(5n*0.1) = 1.65

TH = (n*0.75)+(3n*0.1)+(4n*0.1) = 1.45

For every additional critical pt of dam,

Needle= 0.65

TH = 0.45

Added damage:

Needle: Phlebotomizing = av. 12.5/hit

TH: First Degree burns: 17.5/hit (plus vulnerable) + Dragon’s edge: 13.8/shot average

So, at the extreme +20 points, Needle does +242.5 vrs TH’s 241.3 (at +10 pts, it's roughly equal).

FINAL WORD: Mortal Fear makes TH the better choice, except against bosses who are immune to force, if you can get an additional +20 base dam on Needle, or an extra crit multiplier. However, if you don't possess a Tier 3 TH Mortal Fear weapon, Needle hits harder. If you have extreme damage add ons - all ranger + monk past lives and multiclassed to boost ranged - go with Needle on bosses. If this is your first life toon, TH is better.

TL;DR: Needle remains a powerful choice, especially against fire/force (poss. neg) resistant bosses.

_________________________________________________

I wanted to again compare TH weapons to Needle because of overwhelming critical.

A few assumptions:

- not accounting for precision (up to +30%)

- max seeker (17), max deadly (11)

- not adding in sneak damage, since it would be the same for both

- ignoring the red/orange slot, since it can be equal for both weapons

- Int damage is set at 23 (56 int is pretty easy to reach now)

- all feats appropriate for repeaters – improved critical, point blank range, etc

- NOTE: all values above what my assumptions are that are added to base damage increase Needle’s dps greater than Thunderholme’s b/c of its crit multiplier.

- This is for fleshies, not wf. To make it for toasters, add 0.5 to the weapon die. I didn’t add this for two reasons: most people lose it on arties pretty fast b/c of gear swapping and it’s extra maaaaaath.

NOTE: this isn't dps. To get that, multiply the damage numbers by your bolts per second (15 alacrity = ~113/min; 20 alacrity = ~117/min; twitch = ~ 120/min). Remember to add in the extra damages via rubies, phlebotomizing, dragon's edge, etc.

Damage sources:

Weapon: (2-12) for N, rounded to 7; (1-10) for TH, rounded to 5.5 (interestingly, this gives them both almost the same base multiplier)

Weapon bonus: +8 N, +12 TH

Int: +23

Int: +11 (from Know the Angles)

Deadly: +11

Battle Engineer: +5 (+3 core, +2 enhancement)

Prowess for Needle or Epic Litany: +4

ED bonus: +6

N = 70

TH =74

Added Critical Damage:

Battle Engineer: +3 to crits

Seeker: +12

Exceptional Seeker: +5

= 20

Weapon multipliers:

Deadly: +1

Point Blank Range: +1

Combat Archery: +1

Needle: +2.5

Th: +4.5

Criticals:

17-20 = +[*3] for N; [*2] for TH

19-20 = +[*1] for Devastating Critical in LD

19-20 = +[*1] for OC

Ok, so the math looks like this (this equation is from the base damage above - N=70, TH=74; the column below starts at that no. and adds up to +20):

Needle, base: [5.5(7)+70]*0.75+[3*(5.5(7)+90)]*0.1+[4*(5.5(7)+90)]*0.1+0(0.05)*1=

TH, base: [7.5(5.5)+74]*0.75+[2*(7.5(5.5)+94)]*0.1+[4*(7.5(5.5)+94)]*0.1+0(0.05)*1=

Results:

Needle: ... TH:

197.025 ... 181.1125

198.675 ... 182.5625

200.325 ... 184.0125

201.975 ... 185.4625

203.625 ... 186.9125

205.275 ... 188.3625

206.925 ... 189.8125

208.575 ... 191.2625

210.225 ... 192.7125

211.875 ... 194.1625

213.525 ... 195.6125

215.175 ... 197.0625

216.825 ... 198.5125

218.475 ... 199.9625

220.125 ... 201.4125

221.775 ... 202.8625

223.425 ... 204.3125

225.075 ... 205.7625

226.725 ... 207.2125

228.375 ... 208.6625

230.025 ... 210.1125

For every additional point of damage that is multiplied,

Needle=(n*0.75)+(4n*0.1)+(5n*0.1) = 1.65

TH = (n*0.75)+(3n*0.1)+(4n*0.1) = 1.45

For every additional critical pt of dam,

Needle= 0.65

TH = 0.45

Added damage:

Needle: Phlebotomizing = av. 12.5/hit

TH: First Degree burns: 17.5/hit (plus vulnerable) + Dragon’s edge: 13.8/shot average

So, at the extreme +20 points, Needle does +242.5 vrs TH’s 241.3 (at +10 pts, it's roughly equal).

FINAL WORD: Mortal Fear makes TH the better choice, except against bosses who are immune to force, if you can get an additional +20 base dam on Needle, or an extra crit multiplier. However, if you don't possess a Tier 3 TH Mortal Fear weapon, Needle hits harder. If you have extreme damage add ons - all ranger + monk past lives and multiclassed to boost ranged - go with Needle on bosses. If this is your first life toon, TH is better.

TL;DR: Needle remains a powerful choice, especially against fire/force (poss. neg) resistant bosses.