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View Full Version : Don't count Needle out yet! (or 'why your dps didn't increase so much w/TH xbows')



Singular
11-08-2014, 01:10 AM
EDIT: I got a fair bit of the math incorrect here. Cthru clears my errors up below. But we still need to work out a few more comparisons if we're going to be obsessive about it. See below for details.
_________________________________________________
I wanted to again compare TH weapons to Needle because of overwhelming critical.

A few assumptions:
- not accounting for precision (up to +30%)
- max seeker (17), max deadly (11)
- not adding in sneak damage, since it would be the same for both
- ignoring the red/orange slot, since it can be equal for both weapons
- Int damage is set at 23 (56 int is pretty easy to reach now)
- all feats appropriate for repeaters – improved critical, point blank range, etc
- NOTE: all values above what my assumptions are that are added to base damage increase Needle’s dps greater than Thunderholme’s b/c of its crit multiplier.
- This is for fleshies, not wf. To make it for toasters, add 0.5 to the weapon die. I didn’t add this for two reasons: most people lose it on arties pretty fast b/c of gear swapping and it’s extra maaaaaath.

NOTE: this isn't dps. To get that, multiply the damage numbers by your bolts per second (15 alacrity = ~113/min; 20 alacrity = ~117/min; twitch = ~ 120/min). Remember to add in the extra damages via rubies, phlebotomizing, dragon's edge, etc.

Damage sources:
Weapon: (2-12) for N, rounded to 7; (1-10) for TH, rounded to 5.5 (interestingly, this gives them both almost the same base multiplier)

Weapon bonus: +8 N, +12 TH
Int: +23
Int: +11 (from Know the Angles)
Deadly: +11
Battle Engineer: +5 (+3 core, +2 enhancement)
Prowess for Needle or Epic Litany: +4
ED bonus: +6
N = 70
TH =74

Added Critical Damage:
Battle Engineer: +3 to crits
Seeker: +12
Exceptional Seeker: +5
= 20

Weapon multipliers:
Deadly: +1
Point Blank Range: +1
Combat Archery: +1
Needle: +2.5
Th: +4.5

Criticals:
17-20 = +[*3] for N; [*2] for TH
19-20 = +[*1] for Devastating Critical in LD
19-20 = +[*1] for OC

Ok, so the math looks like this (this equation is from the base damage above - N=70, TH=74; the column below starts at that no. and adds up to +20):
Needle, base: [5.5(7)+70]*0.75+[3*(5.5(7)+90)]*0.1+[4*(5.5(7)+90)]*0.1+0(0.05)*1=
TH, base: [7.5(5.5)+74]*0.75+[2*(7.5(5.5)+94)]*0.1+[4*(7.5(5.5)+94)]*0.1+0(0.05)*1=

Results:

Needle: ... TH:
197.025 ... 181.1125
198.675 ... 182.5625
200.325 ... 184.0125
201.975 ... 185.4625
203.625 ... 186.9125
205.275 ... 188.3625
206.925 ... 189.8125
208.575 ... 191.2625
210.225 ... 192.7125
211.875 ... 194.1625
213.525 ... 195.6125
215.175 ... 197.0625
216.825 ... 198.5125
218.475 ... 199.9625
220.125 ... 201.4125
221.775 ... 202.8625
223.425 ... 204.3125
225.075 ... 205.7625
226.725 ... 207.2125
228.375 ... 208.6625
230.025 ... 210.1125

For every additional point of damage that is multiplied,
Needle=(n*0.75)+(4n*0.1)+(5n*0.1) = 1.65
TH = (n*0.75)+(3n*0.1)+(4n*0.1) = 1.45

For every additional critical pt of dam,
Needle= 0.65
TH = 0.45

Added damage:
Needle: Phlebotomizing = av. 12.5/hit
TH: First Degree burns: 17.5/hit (plus vulnerable) + Dragon’s edge: 13.8/shot average

So, at the extreme +20 points, Needle does +242.5 vrs TH’s 241.3 (at +10 pts, it's roughly equal).

FINAL WORD: Mortal Fear makes TH the better choice, except against bosses who are immune to force, if you can get an additional +20 base dam on Needle, or an extra crit multiplier. However, if you don't possess a Tier 3 TH Mortal Fear weapon, Needle hits harder. If you have extreme damage add ons - all ranger + monk past lives and multiclassed to boost ranged - go with Needle on bosses. If this is your first life toon, TH is better.

TL;DR: Needle remains a powerful choice, especially against fire/force (poss. neg) resistant bosses.

Oxarhamar
11-08-2014, 03:32 AM
interesting

I always find needle seams a bit more powerful in the Crit department with lower base numbers and TF in the base damage with weaker Criticals.

at the rate of speed trash mobs are destroyed with either Needle or TF I am not convinced that Mortal Fear is a big factor in DPS for a repeater build unless Mortal Fear procs early on a mob its pretty much meh.

Singular
11-08-2014, 11:14 AM
interesting

I always find needle seams a bit more powerful in the Crit department with lower base numbers and TF in the base damage with weaker Criticals.

at the rate of speed trash mobs are destroyed with either Needle or TF I am not convinced that Mortal Fear is a big factor in DPS for a repeater build unless Mortal Fear procs early on a mob its pretty much meh.

You are correct: TH shoots higher in non-crits = the 7.5(1-10), which is 7.5(5.5) versus 5.5(2-12), 5.5 (7), is what does it. Pretty close, but TH has that extra 0.5. That would decrease if you have any kind of die multiplier - like Weapon Attachment or Improved Power Attack - because Needle has the higher die number.

We see the big crits because the X3 crit profile of Needle is a multiplying effect of all base damage add-ons.

______________________

Also, I have noticed that on certain high level mobs Needle gets yellow numbers but TH weapons do not. It's probably because TH weapons also bypass almost everything: Pierce, Silver, Adamantine, Mithral, Cold Iron, Magic, Byeshk.
______________________

Last, when I'm in Legendary Dreadnaught, Mortal Fear can kill my blitz by wiping out the mobs too fast, leaving me in trouble. The random proc can create problems! But if I use Needle, Blitz stacks up nicely and then kills them via steady, dependable dps. :)

jalont
11-08-2014, 11:18 AM
Also, I have noticed that on certain high level mobs Needle gets yellow numbers but TH weapons do not. It's probably because TH weapons also bypass almost everything: Pierce, Silver, Adamantine, Mithral, Cold Iron, Magic, Byeshk.


If you have first degree burns, vulnerable can stack high enough to remove dr.

Singular
11-08-2014, 11:28 AM
If you have first degree burns, vulnerable can stack high enough to remove dr.

That's cool. What's missing in the DR breaking department for TH weapons? Good, evil, lawful and chaotic - am I missing anything?

Hobgoblin
11-08-2014, 12:23 PM
That's cool. What's missing in the DR breaking department for TH weapons? Good, evil, lawful and chaotic - am I missing anything?

crystal

CThruTheEgo
11-08-2014, 12:25 PM
A few of your numbers are slightly off.


Weapon: (2-12) for N, rounded to 7

Base damage dice on Needle is 1d12, not 2d6. So the range is 1-12 and the average is 6.5.


Weapon bonus: +8 N, +12 TH
Int: +23
Int: +11 (from Know the Angles)
Deadly: +11
Battle Engineer: +5 (+3 core, +2 enhancement)
Prowess for Needle or Epic Litany: +4
ED bonus: +6
N = 70
TH =74

These actually add up to 68 and 72 respectively, but...


ED bonus: +6

what is this exactly? I couldn't find where you might be getting this from.


Added Critical Damage:
Battle Engineer: +3 to crits

Unless I'm missing something, there is no seeker enhancement in battle engineer. But there is critical damage from legendary dreadnaught which adds +6.



Weapon multipliers:
Deadly: +1
Point Blank Range: +1
Combat Archery: +1
Needle: +2.5
Th: +4.5

I notice legendary dreadnaught's core 6, combat brute, adds +1[W] with melee weapons. I wonder if this also applies to ranged weapons. That would certainly be relevant if it does. Also, battle engineer tier 5 offers weapon attachment. I usually don't have a problem keeping this up tbh. There are few scrolls that I swap to, but I am also WF so I don't rely on scroll healing.


Criticals:
17-20 = +[*3] for N; [*2] for TH
19-20 = +[*1] for Devastating Critical in LD
19-20 = +[*1] for OC

So for Needle that's 17-18x3, 19-20x5. And for Thunder-Forged that's 17-18x2, 19-20x4. But in the equation quoted below:


Needle, base: [5.5(7)+70]*0.75+[3*(5.5(7)+90)]*0.1+[4*(5.5(7)+90)]*0.1+0(0.05)*1=

you only have a x4 multiplier on 19-20 for Needle.


Ok, so the math looks like this (this equation is from the base damage above - N=70, TH=74; the column below starts at that no. and adds up to +20):

Why do you add up to +20?


Results:

Needle: ... TH:
197.025 ... 181.1125
198.675 ... 182.5625
200.325 ... 184.0125
201.975 ... 185.4625
203.625 ... 186.9125
205.275 ... 188.3625
206.925 ... 189.8125
208.575 ... 191.2625
210.225 ... 192.7125
211.875 ... 194.1625
213.525 ... 195.6125
215.175 ... 197.0625
216.825 ... 198.5125
218.475 ... 199.9625
220.125 ... 201.4125
221.775 ... 202.8625
223.425 ... 204.3125
225.075 ... 205.7625
226.725 ... 207.2125
228.375 ... 208.6625
230.025 ... 210.1125

When I go through the calculation using the equation and numbers you listed, without any of the changes I have mentioned, I get significantly different results from what you have. I'm not sure why.


Added damage:
Needle: Phlebotomizing = av. 12.5/hit
TH: First Degree burns: 17.5/hit (plus vulnerable) + Dragon’s edge: 13.8/shot average

Phlebotomizing does 3-24 damage, or 3d8, for an average of 13.5 per hit. But you would actually have to multiply the average damage of both phlebotomizing and first degree burns by 0.95 to account for always missing on a 1. So:

phlebotomizing = 12.825
first degree burns = 16.625

__________________________________________________ _______________________________
So taking into account the changes I mentioned above, here are the numbers I use:

Damage sources:
Weapon: (1-12) for N, rounded to 6.5; (1-10) for TH, rounded to 5.5 (interestingly, this gives them both almost the same base multiplier)

Weapon bonus: +8 N, +12 TH
Int: +23
Int: +11 (from Know the Angles)
Deadly: +11
Battle Engineer: +5 (+3 core, +2 enhancement)
Prowess for Needle or Epic Litany: +4
N = 62
TH =66

Added Critical Damage:
Seeker: +12
Exceptional Seeker: +5
legendary dreadnaught critical damage: +6
= 23

Weapon multipliers:
Deadly: +1
Point Blank Range: +1
Combat Archery: +1
Needle: +2.5
Th: +4.5
Total: Needle +5.5, Thunder-Forged +7.5
With weapon attachment: Needle +6.0, Thunder-Forged +8.0

Criticals:
17-20 = +[*3] for N; [*2] for TH
19-20 = +[*1] for Devastating Critical in LD
19-20 = +[*1] for OC
Total: Needle 17-18x3, 19-20x5; Thunder-Forged 17-18x2, 19-20x4

phlebotomizing = 12.825
first degree burns = 16.625
Dragon’s edge: 13.8/shot average

Ok, so the math looks like this (this equation is from the base damage above - N=62, TH=66):
Needle:
[5.5(6.5)+62]*0.75+[3*(5.5(6.5)+85)]*0.1+[5*(5.5(6.5)+85)]*0.1+0(0.05)*1+12.825=
73.3125+36.225+60.375+0+12.825=
169.9125+12.825=
182.7375
Thunder-Forged:
[7.5(5.5)+66]*0.75+[2*(7.5(5.5)+89)]*0.1+[4*(7.5(5.5)+89)]*0.1+0(0.05)*1+16.625+13.8=
80.4375+20.4+52.1+30.425=
152.9375+30.425=
183.3625

With weapon attachment:
Needle:
[6(6.5)+62]*0.75+[3*(6(6.5)+85)]*0.1+[5*(6(6.5)+85)]*0.1+0(0.05)*1+12.825=
75.75+37.2+62.0+12.825=
174.95+12.825=
187.775
Thunder-Forged:
[8(5.5)+66]*0.75+[2*(8(5.5)+89)]*0.1+[4*(8(5.5)+89)]*0.1+0(0.05)*1+16.625+13.8=
82.5+26.6+53.2+30.425=
162.3+30.425=
192.725

So unless these calculations are wrong, it looks to me like Thunder-Forged is ahead, although the difference is still small. But the reality is more complex than this when you consider vulnerable procs from Thunder-Forged and ranged power which can be anywhere from 0-79 since we're using legendary dreadnaught, and that you can have multiple combinations of each of these. There is also the benefit of fort bypass from Thunder-Forged against anything with fort.

Vulnerable damage can be quite variable and so difficult to calculate. Against most trash you might get anywhere from 1-3 stacks or so. Against any boss, I think you can expect a full stack of 20. Any time you are using Thunder-Forged you will have at least 1 stack of vulnerable. So I'll calculate the damage with only 1 stack and 20, just to get an idea of it's effect and because I want to make this as simple as possible. I will also calculate these numbers for Needle since it is quite possible to be grouped with someone else using Thunder-Forged and getting the benefit of vulnerable procs.

Since we are using int to damage and know the angles, both from harper, I think it is worth assuming +9 ranged power from harper as well. And since we are using dreadnaught, I think it is worth considering an additional +0-70 ranged power. It is possible to have anywhere from 0-10 stacks of blitz, so it is worth calculating each one to figure out the exact effect, but I'm not going to do all of that. :) I'll only bother to calculate 5 and 10 stacks of blitz.

The damage procs from phlebotomizing, first degree burns, and dragon's edge are not affected by vulnerability or ranged power, which is why I separated them out in the above calculations so we can see just the base damage that is affected.

I wish I knew how to do tables in here :)

So I'll start by calculating the benefit of +9 ranged power from harper.

Without weapon attachment and with 9 ranged power:
Needle: 169.9125(1.09)+12.825=185.2046+12.825=198.0296
Thunder-Forged: 152.9375(1.09)+30.425=166.7019+30.425=197.1269

With weapon attachment and 9 ranged power:
Needle: 174.95(1.09)+12.825=190.6955+12.825=203.5205
Thunder-Forged: 162.3(1.09)+30.425=176.907+30.425=207.332

I'll use these results as the base damage for any further calculations.

Calculations with vulnerable:
Without weapon attachment:
Needle with 1 stack of vulnerable: 185.2046(1.01)+12.825=187.0566+12.825=199.8816
Needle with 20 stacks of vulnerable: 185.2046(1.20)+12.825=222.2455+12.825=235.0705
Thunder-Forged with 1 stack of vulnerable: 166.7019(1.01)+30.425=168.3689+30.425=198.7939
Thunder-Forged with 20 stacks of vulnerable: 166.7019(1.20)+30.425=200.0423+30.425=230.4673

With weapon attachment:
Needle with 1 stack of vulnerable: 190.6955(1.01)+12.825=192.6025+12.825=205.4275
Needle with 20 stacks of vulnerable: 190.6955(1.20)+12.825=228.8346+12.825=241.6596
Thunder-Forged with 1 stack of vulnerable: 176.907(1.01)+30.425=178.6761+30.425=209.1011
Thunder-Forged with 20 stacks of vulnerable: 176.907(1.20)+30.425=212.2884+30.425=242.7134

Calculations with blitz:
Without weapon attachment:
Needle with 5 stacks of blitz: 185.2046(1.35)+12.825=250.0262+12.825=262.8512
Needle with 10 stacks of blitz: 185.2046(1.70)+12.825=314.8478+12.825=327.6728
Thunder-Forged with 5 stacks of blitz: 166.7019(1.35)+30.425=225.0476+30.425=255.4726
Thunder-Forged with 10 stacks of blitz: 166.7019(1.70)+30.425=283.3932+30.425=313.8182

With weapon attachment:
Needle with 5 stacks of blitz: 190.6955(1.35)+12.825=257.4389+12.825=270.2639
Needle with 10 stacks of blitz: 190.6955(1.70)+12.825=324.1824+12.825=337.0074
Thunder-Forged with 5 stacks of blitz: 176.907(1.35)+30.425=238.8245+30.425=269.2495
Thunder-Forged with 10 stacks of blitz: 176.907(1.70)+30.425=300.7419+30.425=331.1669

I'm running out of time so I'm not going to calculate the combinations of blitz and vulnerable.

So for base damage per hit, they are quite close with Thunder-Forged generally ahead. When we factor in multiple stacks of vulnerable and blitz, Needle tends to pull ahead, though not always. In situations where Needle is benefiting from vulnerable, however, it is likely against a boss (which means high fortification) and the difference between the two is small enough that the fort bypass from Thunder-Forged will probably bring it ahead. And of course if there is no other source of vulnerable, then Thunder-Forged will definitely be in the lead.

EDIT: The numbers for Thunder-Forged are based on a tier 2 weapon. Based on the numbers above, a tier 3 Thunder-Forged will lead in all situations.

Singular
11-08-2014, 06:16 PM
A few of your numbers are slightly off.

Thanks! There's always something wrong with my numbers.


Base damage dice on Needle is 1d12, not 2d6. So the range is 1-12 and the average is 6.5.

I must have looked at that 100 times yesterday and read 2-12 each time. Crazy. Thanks for the clarification - I'll fix it.


These actually add up to 68 and 72 respectively, but...

arg!


what is this exactly? I couldn't find where you might be getting this from.

LG's Advancing Blows adds up to +5 (but you get there quick, and it generally stays), while Fury adds +6 through the core. It really should be different for each, but I went with +6.


Unless I'm missing something, there is no seeker enhancement in battle engineer. But there is critical damage from legendary dreadnaught which adds +6.

Battle Engineer adds 2 - " You also gain an additional +1 bonus to your attack roll to confirm a critical hit, and a +1 bonus to the damage of your critical hits (before multipliers), for a total of +2." The "3" comes from the previous incarnation of it - pretty sure it was 3.

Yes, Legendary adds +6. I put a table at the bottom showing what each increase in damage adds - normal vrs critical:

For every additional point of damage that is multiplied,
Needle=(n*0.75)+(4n*0.1)+(5n*0.1) = 1.65
TH = (n*0.75)+(3n*0.1)+(4n*0.1) = 1.45

For every additional critical pt of dam,
Needle= 0.65
TH = 0.45

(please note here that I got the crit multiplier correct - that's relevant to your next comment).


I notice legendary dreadnaught's core 6, combat brute, adds +1[W] with melee weapons. I wonder if this also applies to ranged weapons. That would certainly be relevant if it does. Also, battle engineer tier 5 offers weapon attachment. I usually don't have a problem keeping this up tbh. There are few scrolls that I swap to, but I am also WF so I don't rely on scroll healing.

I'm pretty sure Combat Brute does and, for an accurate reading, you'd have to include that as situational boosts in dps. How do you render enemies helpless?

Also, yeah, you'd want to do a separate equation for the +0.5 for toasters - I didn't, but can plug that in later. A few people commented that they are unable to keep it up b/c of switching. I don't scroll heal much at all, but swap to displacement clickies often.


So for Needle that's 17-18x3, 19-20x5. And for Thunder-Forged that's 17-18x2, 19-20x4. But in the equation quoted below:
you only have a x4 multiplier on 19-20 for Needle.

That was just a copy error. I worked out several different variations for different situations, but used the X5 in my spreadsheet. Sorry about that.


Why do you add up to +20?

Just to see what would happen. There are lots of little ways to add base damage: 3 ranger past lives, 3 monk past lives (total: +9), power attack (+5), various Harper bonuses (I didn't add any of these), fighter bonuses, ranger multipliers. A few people have pm'd me, writing that through multiclassing, they greatly boost their dps output using Needle. So I've been curious as to how - and my calculations always show Needle doing less damage than my screen says. I'm still not entirely sure why, though the Archer's Focus would account for it when not using IPS.


When I go through the calculation using the equation and numbers you listed, without any of the changes I have mentioned, I get significantly different results from what you have. I'm not sure why.

Huh. I entered it into a spread sheet using those numbers, w/t/exception of the crit profile mentioned above. I don't know how to link that, but I can send it to anyone who pms me an email address.

Adding in your corrections, with my comments above, the equation would be:

in Fury (+6 ED bonus, no critical bonus - non adrenaline shots only):

Needle, base: [5.5(6.5)+68]*15+[3*(5.5(6.5)+87)]*2+[4*(5.5(6.5)+87)]*2+0(0.05)*1=
TH, base: [7.5(5.5)+72]*15+[2*(7.5(5.5)+91)]*2+[3*(7.5(5.5)+91)]*2+0(0.05)*1=

in LD: (+5 ED bonus, +6 crit bonus - non-blitz shots only):

Needle, base: [5.5(6.5)+67]*15+[3*(5.5(6.5)+92)]*2+[5*(5.5(6.5)+92)]*2+0(0.05)*1=
TH, base: [7.5(5.5)+71]*15+[2*(7.5(5.5)+96)]*2+[4*(7.5(5.5)+96)]*2+0(0.05)*1=

__________________

Anyways, thanks! Fantastic criticisms - I have to run, but will get comment on the rest of your post later today or tomorrow.

Singular
11-08-2014, 06:46 PM
I wish I knew how to do tables in here :)


At least I got one thing right! hahaha - uh...I just added spaces, then "..." and copied and pasted each number individually.

CThruTheEgo
11-08-2014, 06:53 PM
Thanks! There's always something wrong with my numbers.

Don't worry, it's only a matter of time before someone points out something wrong with mine. :) It's a lot to keep track of.


LG's Advancing Blows adds up to +5 (but you get there quick, and it generally stays), while Fury adds +6 through the core. It really should be different for each, but I went with +6.

Ok gotcha. I thought you were using dreadnaught since you listed the extra crit multiplier on 19-20, so I didn't even check fury. I did not include advancing blows in my numbers btw, but it is fairly easy to keep it up, so probably worth including.


Battle Engineer adds 2 - " You also gain an additional +1 bonus to your attack roll to confirm a critical hit, and a +1 bonus to the damage of your critical hits (before multipliers), for a total of +2." The "3" comes from the previous incarnation of it - pretty sure it was 3.

Yep, I missed that. Thanks for clarifying.


I'm pretty sure Combat Brute does and, for an accurate reading, you'd have to include that as situational boosts in dps. How do you render enemies helpless?

When I read it initially, I interpreted it as just adding +1[W]. But looking at the description again, it is a bit ambiguous. Not sure if it's just a straight +1[W], or if it's +1[W] with an action boost active, or +1[W] vs helpless mobs while an action boost is active. I don't know tbh.


Just to see what would happen. There are lots of little ways to add base damage: 3 ranger past lives, 3 monk past lives (total: +9), power attack (+5), various Harper bonuses (I didn't add any of these), fighter bonuses, ranger multipliers. A few people have pm'd me, writing that through multiclassing, they greatly boost their dps output using Needle.

Yeah that makes sense. Although I will point out that power attack won't add damage to a repeater, unless there's something I don't know about.


my calculations always show Needle doing less damage than my screen says. I'm still not entirely sure why, though the Archer's Focus would account for it when not using IPS.

The game does seem to use its own formulas sometimes. :)


Huh. I entered it into a spread sheet using those numbers, w/t/exception of the crit profile mentioned above. I don't know how to link that, but I can send it to anyone who pms me an email address.

I don't use spreadsheets. I do all my math by hand with my trusty TI-30XA. What can I say, I'm old fashioned. :) So yeah I'm not sure where the discrepancy came from either.

I'll include some of these numbers and hopefully we will come up with the same results tomorrow.

CThruTheEgo
11-08-2014, 06:54 PM
At least I got one thing right! hahaha - uh...I just added spaces, then "..." and copied and pasted each number individually.

LOL! Yeah I thought about copying your, uhm, "tables," but just didn't bother.

Phoenix-daBard
11-08-2014, 08:34 PM
I wish I knew how to do tables in here :)
The math is a bit much for me but this I can help with:

row1col1row1col2row1col3
row2col1row2col2row2col3
row3col1row3col2row3col3

See below:

[ table ]
[ tr ][ td ]row1col1[ /td ][ td ]row1col2[ /td ][ td ]row1col3[ /td ][ /tr ]
[ tr ][ td ]row2col1[ /td ][ td ]row2col2[ /td ][ td ]row2col3[ /td ][ /tr ]
[ tr ][ td ]row3col1[ /td ][ td ]row3col2[ /td ][ td ]row3col3[ /td ][ /tr ]
[ /table ]

Singular
11-08-2014, 08:59 PM
Weapon bonus: +8 N, +12 TH
Int: +23
Int: +11 (from Know the Angles)
Deadly: +11
Battle Engineer: +5 (+3 core, +2 enhancement)
Prowess for Needle or Epic Litany: +4
N = 62
TH =66

To this, neither of us added (help me out here - am I still missing some?):

Ranger pl: +2/4/6
Monk pl:...+1/2/3
Arcane pl: +1/2/3

Harper :...+1
Harper vrs evil: +2/3

Good Hope: +2 (from Mask of Comedy)
Black dragon armor: +2 artifact (doesn't stack w/Prowess, but stacks with Litany)
Bard songs?


Added Critical Damage:
Seeker: +12
Exceptional Seeker: +5
legendary dreadnaught critical damage: +6
= 23

BE: +2
(positive it used to be 3! they ripped us off!)
Poss: Power Critical: +2
(but that costs 2 feats, one of which is worthless)


Weapon multipliers:
Deadly: +1
Point Blank Range: +1
Combat Archery: +1
Needle: +2.5
Th: +4.5
Total: Needle +5.5, Thunder-Forged +7.5
With weapon attachment: Needle +6.0, Thunder-Forged +8.0

Please note here, the +7.5/8.0 is the tier 3 version of TH.
Tier 2: 4---->7.0/7.5
Tier 1: 3.5-->6.5/7.0


Criticals:
17-20 = +[*3] for N; [*2] for TH
19-20 = +[*1] for Devastating Critical in LD
19-20 = +[*1] for OC
Total: Needle 17-18x3, 19-20x5; Thunder-Forged 17-18x2, 19-20x4

Err...I messed up that above, too!


phlebotomizing = 12.825
first degree burns = 16.625
Dragon’s edge: 13.8/shot average

And whatever Tier 3 goes in.

Given all that, you've corrected my glaring mistake w/criticals, but are missing the +2 crit dam and between 1-22 dam, depending. Most usually, it will only be +6 (Harper + Advancing Blows) + past lives.


Ok, so the math looks like this (this equation is from the base damage above - N=62, TH=66):
Needle:
[5.5(6.5)+62]*0.75+[3*(5.5(6.5)+85)]*0.1+[5*(5.5(6.5)+85)]*0.1+0(0.05)*1+12.825=
73.3125+36.225+60.375+0+12.825=
169.9125+12.825=
182.7375
Thunder-Forged:
[7.5(5.5)+66]*0.75+[2*(7.5(5.5)+89)]*0.1+[4*(7.5(5.5)+89)]*0.1+0(0.05)*1+16.625+13.8=
80.4375+20.4+52.1+30.425=
152.9375+30.425=
183.3625

With weapon attachment:
Needle:
[6(6.5)+62]*0.75+[3*(6(6.5)+85)]*0.1+[5*(6(6.5)+85)]*0.1+0(0.05)*1+12.825=
75.75+37.2+62.0+12.825=
174.95+12.825=
187.775
Thunder-Forged:
[8(5.5)+66]*0.75+[2*(8(5.5)+89)]*0.1+[4*(8(5.5)+89)]*0.1+0(0.05)*1+16.625+13.8=
82.5+26.6+53.2+30.425=
162.3+30.425=
192.725

I think we've demonstrated that the formula looks like this (w/LD's crit bonus) [EDITED: correct math - thank you Cthru, below]:

N: 5.5[(6.5)+n]0.75+3{5.5[(6.5)+n+25]}0.1+5{5.5[(6.5)+n+25]}0.1=(?)*ranged power
Th: 7.5[(5.5)+n]0.75+2{7.5[(5.5)+n+25]}0.1+4{7.5[(5.5)+n+25]}0.1=(?)*ranged power

W/weapon attachment (I'm jealous!):

N: 6[(6)+n]0.75+3{6[(6)+n+25]}0.1+5{6[(6)+n+25]}0.1= (?)*ranged power
Th: 8[(6)+n]0.75+2{8[(5.5)+n+25]}0.1+4{8[(5.5)+n+25]}0.1=(?)*ranged power

Where n=max base damage, through all possible sources.


So unless these calculations are wrong, it looks to me like Thunder-Forged is ahead, although the difference is still small.

Yes, with the caveat that Needle catches up with each added point of damage.


Vulnerable damage can be quite variable and so difficult to calculate. Against most trash you might get anywhere from 1-3 stacks or so. Against any boss, I think you can expect a full stack of 20. Any time you are using Thunder-Forged you will have at least 1 stack of vulnerable. So I'll calculate the damage with only 1 stack and 20, just to get an idea of it's effect and because I want to make this as simple as possible. I will also calculate these numbers for Needle since it is quite possible to be grouped with someone else using Thunder-Forged and getting the benefit of vulnerable procs.

Totally - and thank you for the above calculations. Tbh, it's not really fair imo to add vulnerability to Needle unless you know you're running with people using vulnerable. For one thing, I enjoy soloing EEs sometimes and wouldn't have that added damage.

Questions:

- doesn't vulnerable just increase damage done by a straight percentage, 1-20%?
- why doesn't it affect all sources of damage?

Cutting out your good equations for space:

I'm running out of time so I'm not going to calculate the combinations of blitz and vulnerable.

So for base damage per hit, they are quite close with Thunder-Forged generally ahead. When we factor in multiple stacks of vulnerable and blitz, Needle tends to pull ahead, though not always. In situations where Needle is benefiting from vulnerable, however, it is likely against a boss (which means high fortification) and the difference between the two is small enough that the fort bypass from Thunder-Forged will probably bring it ahead. And of course if there is no other source of vulnerable, then Thunder-Forged will definitely be in the lead.

EDIT: The numbers for Thunder-Forged are based on a tier 2 weapon. Based on the numbers above, a tier 3 Thunder-Forged will lead in all situations.

I think, but am not certain, when we add in a bit of the missing damage, Needle will catch up or surpass TH without vulnerable - I'll attempt this below, not here, b/c this is a massive post.

But, yes, we both came to a similar conclusion: Tier 3 TH will almost always out-perform Needle, in added sources of damage if not in base damage where it is either 1) just slightly ahead (for low added base damage), 2) equal (for med-high base damage), or 3) just slightly behind (for very high base damage).

Singular
11-08-2014, 09:08 PM
Don't worry, it's only a matter of time before someone points out something wrong with mine. :) It's a lot to keep track of.

hee, hee, hee


Ok gotcha. I thought you were using dreadnaught since you listed the extra crit multiplier on 19-20, so I didn't even check fury. I did not include advancing blows in my numbers btw, but it is fairly easy to keep it up, so probably worth including.

I am now. Prior to update 23, Fury felt like the clear winner - I ran some numbers on it a long time ago and it came out just ahead of LD. But now LD feels superior. We really need to post a comparison :) but...da.mn enough math for today!


When I read it initially, I interpreted it as just adding +1[W]. But looking at the description again, it is a bit ambiguous. Not sure if it's just a straight +1[W], or if it's +1[W] with an action boost active, or +1[W] vs helpless mobs while an action boost is active. I don't know tbh.

I really don't know but am guessing it means "when an action boost is active, against helpless." It may mean the other two you've listed though. Hard to tell b/c we can't turn it off. I guess the only way would be to attack mobs and helpless mobs and compare between Fury and LD - which would be a lot of work.


Yeah that makes sense. Although I will point out that power attack won't add damage to a repeater, unless there's something I don't know about.
The game does seem to use its own formulas sometimes. :)

Yeah. Arg! I really can't figure out why but I get much higher numbers than our calculations show. I'm wondering if it's a "turbine" math of, say, 6+1-6 rather than 1-12. I guess one could note their combat log, run the numbers and figure out the calculation - people did this for other weapons and spells. But, again, enough math for today! I'm just going to log into my last Primal life :)


I don't use spreadsheets. I do all my math by hand with my trusty TI-30XA. What can I say, I'm old fashioned. :) So yeah I'm not sure where the discrepancy came from either.

I do both. You see where that got me.


I'll include some of these numbers and hopefully we will come up with the same results tomorrow.

hahaha. Yes! Not today :)


The math is a bit much for me but this I can help with:

row1col1row1col2row1col3
row2col1row2col2row2col3
row3col1row3col2row3col3

See below:

[ table ]
[ tr ][ td ]row1col1[ /td ][ td ]row1col2[ /td ][ td ]row1col3[ /td ][ /tr ]
[ tr ][ td ]row2col1[ /td ][ td ]row2col2[ /td ][ td ]row2col3[ /td ][ /tr ]
[ tr ][ td ]row3col1[ /td ][ td ]row3col2[ /td ][ td ]row3col3[ /td ][ /tr ]
[ /table ]

Thanks Phoenix! That will help a lot.

CThruTheEgo
11-10-2014, 08:44 AM
The math is a bit much for me but this I can help with:

row1col1row1col2row1col3
row2col1row2col2row2col3
row3col1row3col2row3col3

See below:

[ table ]
[ tr ][ td ]row1col1[ /td ][ td ]row1col2[ /td ][ td ]row1col3[ /td ][ /tr ]
[ tr ][ td ]row2col1[ /td ][ td ]row2col2[ /td ][ td ]row2col3[ /td ][ /tr ]
[ tr ][ td ]row3col1[ /td ][ td ]row3col2[ /td ][ td ]row3col3[ /td ][ /tr ]
[ /table ]

Nice Phoenix. Thanks.


To this, neither of us added (help me out here - am I still missing some?):

Ranger pl: +2/4/6
Monk pl:...+1/2/3
Arcane pl: +1/2/3

Harper :...+1
Harper vrs evil: +2/3

Good Hope: +2 (from Mask of Comedy)
Black dragon armor: +2 artifact (doesn't stack w/Prowess, but stacks with Litany)
Bard songs?

Inspire courage adds up to +4 on a pure bard, with another +5 possible from warchanter cores. It is a morale bonus so doesn't stack with good hope. The warchanter capstone also grants +5 music bonus to damage.


Please note here, the +7.5/8.0 is the tier 3 version of TH.
Tier 2: 4---->7.0/7.5
Tier 1: 3.5-->6.5/7.0

Ah right, good catch.


I think we've demonstrated that the formula looks like this (w/LD's crit bonus):

N: 5.5[(6)+n]0.75+3{5.5[(6)+n+25]}0.1+5{5.5[(6)+n+25]}0.1=(?)*ranged power
Th: 7.5[(6)+n]0.75+2{7.5[(5.5)+n+25]}0.1+4{7.5[(5.5)+n+25]}0.1=(?)*ranged power

W/weapon attachment (I'm jealous!):

N: 6[(6)+n]0.75+3{6[(6)+n+25]}0.1+5{6[(6)+n+25]}0.1= (?)*ranged power
Th: 8[(6)+n]0.75+2{8[(5.5)+n+25]}0.1+4{8[(5.5)+n+25]}0.1=(?)*ranged power

Where n=max base damage, through all possible sources.

That's mostly correct. The average damage of Needle's base damage die is 6.5, not 6. And you have the first Thunder-Forged average base damage die listed as 6 when it should be 5.5. There's also the damage from phlebotomizing and 1st degree burns, both modified for missing on a 1, as well as dragon's edge and mortal fear (if considering tier 3). These would be added after ranged power is calculated in, but (maybe?) before vulnerable is factored in.


Tbh, it's not really fair imo to add vulnerability to Needle unless you know you're running with people using vulnerable. For one thing, I enjoy soloing EEs sometimes and wouldn't have that added damage.

It won't apply in all situations, that's certainly true. But given the prevalance of Thunder-Forged weapons currently, and the popularity of 1st degree burns on tier 1, I would consider it a common enough debuff to at least look at what the effect is for Needle, just for the sake of comparison. In nearly any raid situation, Needle will likely benefit from vulnerable, for example. But I would also add that in many situations where Needle will benefit from multiple stacks of vulnerable, fortification is likely a factor as well, in which case Thunder-Forged might remain ahead because of the fort bypass. With the wide variety of conditions and variability of factors, it's not a simple situation, that's for sure.


- doesn't vulnerable just increase damage done by a straight percentage, 1-20%?
- why doesn't it affect all sources of damage?

It might. Now that you mention it, I seem to recall people saying on the forums that they were getting increased damage from other sources. But I don't know for sure. If that's true then I can't see Needle coming out ahead, even with all of the damage bonuses currently available in the game.


But, yes, we both came to a similar conclusion: Tier 3 TH will almost always out-perform Needle, in added sources of damage if not in base damage where it is either 1) just slightly ahead (for low added base damage), 2) equal (for med-high base damage), or 3) just slightly behind (for very high base damage).

Yep, and this might be a good enough answer for me that I may not bother doing the math again lol. I don't know when I'll have the time to go through it all again.

RTN
11-10-2014, 09:40 AM
Huh. I entered it into a spread sheet using those numbers, w/t/exception of the crit profile mentioned above. I don't know how to link that, but I can send it to anyone who pms me an email address.


Great and useful discussion (even more useful if my arti had a TF weapon! :( ). An easy way to share spreadsheets is making them online w/ Google Docs/Drive/Sheets. Sharing them via link is really easy.

Singular
11-10-2014, 11:02 AM
That's mostly correct. The average damage of Needle's base damage die is 6.5, not 6. And you have the first Thunder-Forged average base damage die listed as 6 when it should be 5.5. There's also the damage from phlebotomizing and 1st degree burns, both modified for missing on a 1, as well as dragon's edge and mortal fear (if considering tier 3). These would be added after ranged power is calculated in, but (maybe?) before vulnerable is factored in.

Corrected, thanks.

Yes, the procs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the best way to calculate "on hit" would be to mult. the average by 19, then divide by 20. You're right, I didn't do that before. Arg! I may, just maybe, work this out by the end of the year...

One other disturbing thing: I worked out...err...thought very deeply about ruby eyes vrs superior X (frost, acid, etc). Pretty sure that only meteoric comes out ahead and only w/a lvl 28 weapon. I'll write what I believe are the equations for that soonish, esp. now that you corrected me on the miss.


It won't apply in all situations, that's certainly true. But given the prevalance of Thunder-Forged weapons currently, and the popularity of 1st degree burns on tier 1, I would consider it a common enough debuff to at least look at what the effect is for Needle, just for the sake of comparison. In nearly any raid situation, Needle will likely benefit from vulnerable, for example. But I would also add that in many situations where Needle will benefit from multiple stacks of vulnerable, fortification is likely a factor as well, in which case Thunder-Forged might remain ahead because of the fort bypass. With the wide variety of conditions and variability of factors, it's not a simple situation, that's for sure.

True in groups, for sure. And the fort is a great point, for those who put Dragon's Edge on them (I've made some purely CC ones - tier 2 - with only the CC options, just to test; not worth it). Black dragon armor gives up to 20%, but TH is 35% - the clear winner. Also, TH weapons break almost every DR, so they beat Needle in that aspect, too. In the absence of DR and Fort, I'm pretty sure Needle is the winner from 23-27, though. Not completely, but pretty sure.


It might. Now that you mention it, I seem to recall people saying on the forums that they were getting increased damage from other sources. But I don't know for sure. If that's true then I can't see Needle coming out ahead, even with all of the damage bonuses currently available in the game.

I was getting great numbers with TH weapons, too. I think b/c of the DR breaking but am not completely sure. Needle still gives you those crazy highs that immediately grab your attention - running with sorcs and Shiradi, I often hit 4400+ w/adrenaline crits. Multiclass who run w/kensai in LD would get X6 19-20. For them, Fury is absolutely the way to go.


Yep, and this might be a good enough answer for me that I may not bother doing the math again lol. I don't know when I'll have the time to go through it all again.

Math. Maaaaaath! Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaath!

CThruTheEgo
11-10-2014, 04:43 PM
Yes, the procs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the best way to calculate "on hit" would be to mult. the average by 19, then divide by 20.

That's one way. Another way of doing the same thing is to multiply the average by 0.95.


One other disturbing thing: I worked out...err...thought very deeply about ruby eyes vrs superior X (frost, acid, etc). Pretty sure that only meteoric comes out ahead and only w/a lvl 28 weapon. I'll write what I believe are the equations for that soonish, esp. now that you corrected me on the miss.

Heh, I actually did those calcs a while back. Here they are:

Basic formula for ruby eye augments: damage dice average * 28 * 0.02 * 0.95 = damage dice average * 0.532

Ruby eye of erosion (3d6): 10.5*0.532=5.586
Ruby eye of the inferno (4d4): 10*0.532=5.32
Ruby eye of the glacier (7d2): 10.5*0.532=5.586
Ruby eye of the tempest (1d20): 10.5*0.532=5.586
Ruby eye of righteousness (3d4): 7.5*0.532=3.99
Ruby eye of force?*(3d4): 7.5*0.532=3.99
Meteoric star ruby (4d6): 14*0.532=7.448
Level 28 elemental ruby augment (2d6): 7*0.95=6.65

You are correct that only meteoric star ruby comes out ahead, but the ruby eyes are also AoE damage while the elemental ruby augments are only single target.

It just occurred to me that the augments affected by min level favor Thunder-Forged over Needle. So if we assume one of these is slotted in each, then this is worth factoring in as well. Meh, too much math.

Livmo
11-10-2014, 04:54 PM
That's one way. Another way of doing the same thing is to multiply the average by 0.95.



Heh, I actually did those calcs a while back. Here they are:

Basic formula for ruby eye augments: damage dice average * 28 * 0.02 * 0.95 = damage dice average * 0.532

Ruby eye of erosion (3d6): 10.5*0.532=5.586
Ruby eye of the inferno (4d4): 10*0.532=5.32
Ruby eye of the glacier (7d2): 10.5*0.532=5.586
Ruby eye of the tempest (1d20): 10.5*0.532=5.586
Ruby eye of righteousness (3d4): 7.5*0.532=3.99
Ruby eye of force?*(3d4): 7.5*0.532=3.99
Meteoric star ruby (4d6): 14*0.532=7.448
Level 28 elemental ruby augment (2d6): 7*0.95=6.65

You are correct that only meteoric star ruby comes out ahead, but the ruby eyes are also AoE damage while the elemental ruby augments are only single target.

It just occurred to me that the augments affected by min level favor Thunder-Forged over Needle. So if we assume one of these is slotted in each, then this is worth factoring in as well. Meh, too much math.

Have any of you tried the Ruby of Crushing Wave in a repeater?

No math but based on anectdotal exp. it seems the Ruby of Crushing Wave goes off more often than the Meteoric Star Rudy.

Singular
11-10-2014, 08:15 PM
That's one way. Another way of doing the same thing is to multiply the average by 0.95.



Heh, I actually did those calcs a while back. Here they are:

Basic formula for ruby eye augments: damage dice average * 28 * 0.02 * 0.95 = damage dice average * 0.532

Ruby eye of erosion (3d6): 10.5*0.532=5.586
Ruby eye of the inferno (4d4): 10*0.532=5.32
Ruby eye of the glacier (7d2): 10.5*0.532=5.586
Ruby eye of the tempest (1d20): 10.5*0.532=5.586
Ruby eye of righteousness (3d4): 7.5*0.532=3.99
Ruby eye of force?*(3d4): 7.5*0.532=3.99
Meteoric star ruby (4d6): 14*0.532=7.448
Level 28 elemental ruby augment (2d6): 7*0.95=6.65

You are correct that only meteoric star ruby comes out ahead, but the ruby eyes are also AoE damage while the elemental ruby augments are only single target.

It just occurred to me that the augments affected by min level favor Thunder-Forged over Needle. So if we assume one of these is slotted in each, then this is worth factoring in as well. Meh, too much math.

Woohoo! I don't have to do anything :) Thank you. Yes, they'd favor TF for sure. The aoe is a bit 'meh' in EE content of all of them except the meteoric, which sometimes knocks down a bunch of them. It's actually possible to make a repeater with 1 red +1 purple, meaning you could have 2 meteoric in there - if the CC was worth it.

Does your math above figure in that most EE mobs will save? Or do we add that later? If so, you'd have to cut those numbers in half. That's where I was thinking the lvl 28 augments might be better.


Have any of you tried the Ruby of Crushing Wave in a repeater?

No math but based on anectdotal exp. it seems the Ruby of Crushing Wave goes off more often than the Meteoric Star Rudy.

That's static damage - so doesn't increase per level. It might be worth it in lower level weapons, and perhaps even higher level weapons if this is correct:

"5% Chance of 3 ticks of 30-40 Cold and 30-40 Bludgeon Damage over 6 seconds (180-240 damage, 210 average)
Average of 10.5 damage per attack."

That would be better for bosses - trash mobs generally don't live 6 seconds.

Edit: Ah! The one problem with crushing wave is that if another one procs, they don't stack but overwrite each other.

Oxarhamar
11-12-2014, 03:46 AM
Vs. Bosses

Needle Vs. Tier 3 Mortal Fear ...ok so what about

Needle Vs. Tier 3 Crippling Flames for bosses that are not fire immune (a lot of them now days)

also for questing.

I think it is relevant that while LD can provide a high situationally sustainable DPS, Divine Crusaider provides more sustainable DPS with increased Crit range.

Oxarhamar
11-12-2014, 03:50 AM
That's one way. Another way of doing the same thing is to multiply the average by 0.95.



Heh, I actually did those calcs a while back. Here they are:

Basic formula for ruby eye augments: damage dice average * 28 * 0.02 * 0.95 = damage dice average * 0.532

Ruby eye of erosion (3d6): 10.5*0.532=5.586
Ruby eye of the inferno (4d4): 10*0.532=5.32
Ruby eye of the glacier (7d2): 10.5*0.532=5.586
Ruby eye of the tempest (1d20): 10.5*0.532=5.586
Ruby eye of righteousness (3d4): 7.5*0.532=3.99
Ruby eye of force?*(3d4): 7.5*0.532=3.99
Meteoric star ruby (4d6): 14*0.532=7.448
Level 28 elemental ruby augment (2d6): 7*0.95=6.65

You are correct that only meteoric star ruby comes out ahead, but the ruby eyes are also AoE damage while the elemental ruby augments are only single target.

It just occurred to me that the augments affected by min level favor Thunder-Forged over Needle. So if we assume one of these is slotted in each, then this is worth factoring in as well. Meh, too much math.

meh with only one Red slot on a weapon more likely to slot Spell power to fuel self healing than a damage Aug that procs at such low chance.

Oxarhamar
11-12-2014, 04:06 AM
I was getting great numbers with TH weapons, too. I think b/c of the DR breaking but am not completely sure. Needle still gives you those crazy highs that immediately grab your attention - running with sorcs and Shiradi, I often hit 4400+ w/adrenaline crits. Multiclass who run w/kensai in LD would get X6 19-20. For them, Fury is absolutely the way to go.!

Can't get Centered with Xbow 19-20x5 is tops for Kensei in LD

Kensei + LD w/OC 15-18x3 19-20x5
Kensei + Divine Crusader w/OC 13-18x3 19-20x4 <no self Deadly for Kensei must be buffed by another purer Artificer

19-20x 6 on Needle is however achievable with Holy sword

Holy Sword + LD w/OC 15-18x4 19-20x6
Holy Sword + Divine Crusader w/OC 13-18x4 18-20x5 <Holy sword provides +1(w) and Deadly stacks if buffed by a purer Artificer


Which OFC makes

Kensei TF +1 range

Holy Sword TF +1(w) +1 range + 1 Multi

Livmo
11-12-2014, 10:49 AM
Woohoo! I don't have to do anything :) Thank you. Yes, they'd favor TF for sure. The aoe is a bit 'meh' in EE content of all of them except the meteoric, which sometimes knocks down a bunch of them. It's actually possible to make a repeater with 1 red +1 purple, meaning you could have 2 meteoric in there - if the CC was worth it.

Does your math above figure in that most EE mobs will save? Or do we add that later? If so, you'd have to cut those numbers in half. That's where I was thinking the lvl 28 augments might be better.



That's static damage - so doesn't increase per level. It might be worth it in lower level weapons, and perhaps even higher level weapons if this is correct:

"5% Chance of 3 ticks of 30-40 Cold and 30-40 Bludgeon Damage over 6 seconds (180-240 damage, 210 average)
Average of 10.5 damage per attack."

That would be better for bosses - trash mobs generally don't live 6 seconds.

Edit: Ah! The one problem with crushing wave is that if another one procs, they don't stack but overwrite each other.

Although I TR'ed the other night I had some stuff sell on the shard exchange and bought a stack of the Crushing Wave augments, because I have one and it seems to proc allot. When I get back to L20 I will put one in my ER repeater and see what happens and may swap out the one I have in my Needle.

TYMV for the info!

Singular
11-13-2014, 09:51 AM
Vs. Bosses
Needle Vs. Tier 3 Mortal Fear ...ok so what about
Needle Vs. Tier 3 Crippling Flames for bosses that are not fire immune (a lot of them now days)
also for questing.
I think it is relevant that while LD can provide a high situationally sustainable DPS, Divine Crusaider provides more sustainable DPS with increased Crit range.

On non-bosses, MF is always going to beat out standard dps (except for EN and EH difficulties, where your dps alone might kill mobs in an eyeblink). On bosses, it would depend on what other added damage the TF weapon can do, but keep in mind that even MF contributes an average of 32 force/hit. Additionally, TF weapons have most dr breakers and, w/dragon's edge, have 35% armor piercing.

Never tried DC in an artie - not super convinved it's great b/c of the lack of ranged power. The increased crit range would favor Needle in dps output. So, how does DC compare to LD?

If we're bored, we really should have a discussion about the different EDs as they apply to arties!


meh with only one Red slot on a weapon more likely to slot Spell power to fuel self healing than a damage Aug that procs at such low chance.

I wear the Gauntlets of Immortality to avoid specifically that problem.


Can't get Centered with Xbow 19-20x5 is tops for Kensei in LD

Kensei + LD w/OC 15-18x3 19-20x5
Kensei + Divine Crusader w/OC 13-18x3 19-20x4 <no self Deadly for Kensei must be buffed by another purer Artificer

19-20x 6 on Needle is however achievable with Holy sword

Holy Sword + LD w/OC 15-18x4 19-20x6
Holy Sword + Divine Crusader w/OC 13-18x4 18-20x5 <Holy sword provides +1(w) and Deadly stacks if buffed by a purer Artificer

Which OFC makes

Kensei TF +1 range

Holy Sword TF +1(w) +1 range + 1 Multi

Wow, cool, thank you! So those are the best ways to multiclass with repeater. So...15 paly/5 artie? And use Needle for ridiculous crits? Nice! You'd be giving up Rogue sneak attack damage though, but it's probably worth it.


Although I TR'ed the other night I had some stuff sell on the shard exchange and bought a stack of the Crushing Wave augments, because I have one and it seems to proc allot. When I get back to L20 I will put one in my ER repeater and see what happens and may swap out the one I have in my Needle.

TYMV for the info!

Well, it might be good to leave in. If it's constantly proccing, even with overwriting, it'd be adding 30-40 cold plus 30-40 bludgeon. That would be awesome and, if constant, would beat out any of the other augments (except if you care about CC, then it's meteoric or nothing).

This discussion of augments makes me wonder if anyone is thinking about making a TF repeater w/an added purple slot, for 2 possible rubies?

Ancient
11-13-2014, 10:31 AM
Wow, cool, thank you! So those are the best ways to multiclass with repeater. So...15 paly/5 artie? And use Needle for ridiculous crits? Nice! You'd be giving up Rogue sneak attack damage though, but it's probably worth it.

Dang you. The last thing I needed was one more goofy class combo that I just HAVE to try out :)

CThruTheEgo
11-13-2014, 05:26 PM
Have any of you tried the Ruby of Crushing Wave in a repeater?

No math but based on anectdotal exp. it seems the Ruby of Crushing Wave goes off more often than the Meteoric Star Rudy.

It should proc more. Wiki reports a 5% proc rate whereas the ruby eyes and meteoric star ruby are all 2%. the crushing wave is an average of 10.5 damage per hit if you get all 3 ticks of it. If they don't stack or a mob dies before all 3 ticks, then you get an average of 3.5 from 1 tick and 7 from 2 ticks.

Do you know if crushing wave is an AoE effect or single target?


Does your math above figure in that most EE mobs will save? Or do we add that later? If so, you'd have to cut those numbers in half. That's where I was thinking the lvl 28 augments might be better.

It does not account for half damage from saves. So yeah, you can pretty much cut those numbers in half.


That's static damage - so doesn't increase per level. It might be worth it in lower level weapons, and perhaps even higher level weapons if this is correct:

"5% Chance of 3 ticks of 30-40 Cold and 30-40 Bludgeon Damage over 6 seconds (180-240 damage, 210 average)
Average of 10.5 damage per attack."

That would be better for bosses - trash mobs generally don't live 6 seconds.

Against bosses the best augment might actually be deconstructor, since it reduces fort for eveyone in the group, but the value of fort reduction depends on how many melee/ranged are in group I suppose.


I think it is relevant that while LD can provide a high situationally sustainable DPS, Divine Crusaider provides more sustainable DPS with increased Crit range.

I hadn't really considered divine crusader for an arti, but I'm going to give a try. I'm force/fire specced, so there's some decent synergy there.

I would think divine crusader would be better for content where it's hard to get blitz going and sustained, so EN/EH. Although in EN/EH, I don't rely much on the repeater anyway. You can just one shot everything with energy burst or drop blade barriers in your wake as you zerg. But blitz is easy to maintain in EE quests and I can't imagine divine crusader being better in that situation.


meh with only one Red slot on a weapon more likely to slot Spell power to fuel self healing than a damage Aug that procs at such low chance.

Maybe for a fleshie, but not on a warforged. Reconstruct hits me for 400+ and I don't have repair spell power anywhere. I don't even have potency either. Force spell power is available on Knives Eternal and fire is on the Epic Inferno Bracers. That's all the spell power I use so I've got the weapon's red slot free for a damage augment.

Oxarhamar
11-15-2014, 03:35 PM
On the class split

I'm using 14 Paly 4 Arti 2 monk

Did not have room for all the required ranged feats without Monk bonus for free precision on this build

I layed out my basic build feats and enhancements in another thread in Class section I'll link it later (linking is difficult on the phone)


On Divine Crusaider vs. Legendary Dreadnaught

DC gives more sustainable DPS thru higher Crit range, Doubleshot, and other passive bonus than Legendary Drednaught
Unless your blitzing which we know can be situational or end early if you have bad luck with stacks make a boo boo and die etc.
DC epic moment is quite powerful as well except it is the reverse of blitz it is at its strongest immediately on demand then Slowly gets weaker and weaker.

Personally I perfer DC for my playstyle which is full time repeater glass cannon type of build. The roles I play in raids are generally trash clearance in Deathwyrm, Thunder peak, MoD I like to keep the trash down let everyone else focus on other objectives.
LD works best if you keep it up /don't die and lose it.
DC works very well also providing higher survivablitiy as well with concecrated ground and saving the epic moment to tear down Deathnights or whatever you like.


I've been in Fatesinger this life for Karma maybe next go I'll try Fury though I never liked it before just yet to try it with this new build.

Oxarhamar
11-15-2014, 03:45 PM
Maybe for a fleshie, but not on a warforged. Reconstruct hits me for 400+ and I don't have repair spell power anywhere. I don't even have potency either. Force spell power is available on Knives Eternal and fire is on the Epic Inferno Bracers. That's all the spell power I use so I've got the weapon's red slot free for a damage augment.

As far as Rune Arms & Spellpower.
I never cast offensive spells or fire the rune arm, Spell power is only good for Self healing to me.

I know singular mentions Bracers of immortality for Spell power but, that is a DPS slot for me, so are the majority of my slots I'm a bit of a Glass Cannon taking offense over defense on every item slot that I can.
Depending on LVL and ED I might be using The Doubleshot bracers in LD or the exceptional seeker Bracers in DC. I use the Cloak in lower leveler but, the whole gear set changes at 28 because of Consuming Darkness which has seeker12 and moves about every item it the gear set, sources of certain types of effects are limeted it's very little flexibility to fit in everything.


I either use Glass Cannon or Tira's Splendor (for all the wonderful passives) depending on race or situation sometimes.

CThruTheEgo
11-15-2014, 03:57 PM
As far as Rune Arms & Spellpower.
I never cast offensive spells or fire the rune arm, Spell power is only good for Self healing to me.

I know singular mentions Bracers of immortality for Spell power but, that is a DPS slot for me, so are the majority of my slots I'm a bit of a Glass Cannon taking offense over defense on every item slot that I can.
Depending on LVL and ED I might be using The Doubleshot bracers in LD or the exceptional seeker Bracers in DC. I use the Cloak in lower leveler but, the whole gear set changes at 28 because of Consuming Darkness which has seeker12 and moves about every item it the gear set, sources of certain types of effects are limeted it's very little flexibility to fit in everything.


I either use Glass Cannon or Tira's Splendor (for all the wonderful passives) depending on race or situation sometimes.

Yep, yours is a much different build than a pure arti, so I would expect quite a few gear differences.

Oxarhamar
11-15-2014, 03:59 PM
Dang you. The last thing I needed was one more goofy class combo that I just HAVE to try out :)

The splash is 14/4/2 Paly Arti monk

its basic framework is layout out in this thread https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/450581-Deadly-Weapon-vs-Holy-Sword

Oxarhamar
11-15-2014, 04:00 PM
Yep, yours is a much different build than a pure arti, so I would expect quite a few gear differences.

Oh yeah of course.

Been running builds like this since U18 from 8 Fighter 6 Arti 6 wizard Kensei battle engineer w/ haste displacement very nice. To 6 Arti 8 rogue 6 ranger.

I miss Blade Barrier but, I never like Runearms I really enjoy Repeaters so I try to maximize that aspect as best I can while pucking up Epic and iconic lives.

Singular
11-16-2014, 08:38 PM
As far as Rune Arms & Spellpower.
I never cast offensive spells or fire the rune arm, Spell power is only good for Self healing to me.

I know singular mentions Bracers of immortality for Spell power but, that is a DPS slot for me, so are the majority of my slots I'm a bit of a Glass Cannon taking offense over defense on every item slot that I can.
Depending on LVL and ED I might be using The Doubleshot bracers in LD or the exceptional seeker Bracers in DC. I use the Cloak in lower leveler but, the whole gear set changes at 28 because of Consuming Darkness which has seeker12 and moves about every item it the gear set, sources of certain types of effects are limeted it's very little flexibility to fit in everything.


I either use Glass Cannon or Tira's Splendor (for all the wonderful passives) depending on race or situation sometimes.

Gauntlets of Immortality, not Bracers. They fill a glove slot, so you get the doubleshot bracers, too.

btw, cool build! What kind of dps do you see? Which xbow are you using?

Singular
11-16-2014, 08:39 PM
Dang you. The last thing I needed was one more goofy class combo that I just HAVE to try out :)

Nice! Let us know how it goes!

Singular
11-16-2014, 08:44 PM
It should proc more. Wiki reports a 5% proc rate whereas the ruby eyes and meteoric star ruby are all 2%. the crushing wave is an average of 10.5 damage per hit if you get all 3 ticks of it. If they don't stack or a mob dies before all 3 ticks, then you get an average of 3.5 from 1 tick and 7 from 2 ticks.
Do you know if crushing wave is an AoE effect or single target?

It's single target. If there's multiple procs, that just keeps up your 10.5/shot or actually increases it a bit if it procs constantly.


It does not account for half damage from saves. So yeah, you can pretty much cut those numbers in half.

That makes the single target ones higher dps then. Well, for single targets but seriously, the aoe barely scratches EE mobs. It's the CC I'm finding the most useful - I actually had 5-8 mobs fall b/c of the CC in EE Wheeloon quests. So very useful! Kinda thinking to make a repeater with orange and purple slots to try two...


Against bosses the best augment might actually be deconstructor, since it reduces fort for eveyone in the group, but the value of fort reduction depends on how many melee/ranged are in group I suppose.

Blach!


I hadn't really considered divine crusader for an arti, but I'm going to give a try. I'm force/fire specced, so there's some decent synergy there.

I would think divine crusader would be better for content where it's hard to get blitz going and sustained, so EN/EH. Although in EN/EH, I don't rely much on the repeater anyway. You can just one shot everything with energy burst or drop blade barriers in your wake as you zerg. But blitz is easy to maintain in EE quests and I can't imagine divine crusader being better in that situation.

That totally makes sense. I have had blitz fail to get going a few times now - so the randomness can make it fail. Anyways, the U24 will increase the starting charge to 3. That will make it nearly always on if you're paying attention when you start it.


Maybe for a fleshie, but not on a warforged. Reconstruct hits me for 400+ and I don't have repair spell power anywhere. I don't even have potency either. Force spell power is available on Knives Eternal and fire is on the Epic Inferno Bracers. That's all the spell power I use so I've got the weapon's red slot free for a damage augment.

You evil toasters!!!

Oxarhamar
11-16-2014, 08:55 PM
Gauntlets of Immortality, not Bracers. They fill a glove slot, so you get the doubleshot bracers, too.

btw, cool build! What kind of dps do you see? Which xbow are you using?

I mostly use Needle though I have a Tier 2 & 3 Mortal Fear

I'm not particularly impressed with Mortal fear never have been it just does not seam to go off often enough to matter mobs die fast enough as it is and the ones that don't are immune.


My DPS varies a lot dependent on ED I'm currently running my weaker shperes to get Karma.

Really wish we had a meter/dummy to actually measure DPS not just feel it out and guess.

CThruTheEgo
11-17-2014, 11:31 AM
It's single target. If there's multiple procs, that just keeps up your 10.5/shot or actually increases it a bit if it procs constantly.

I asked about crushing wave in another thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/450881-Thunderforged-for-Assassins) and two people said they think it just resets the timer. So still no confirmation, but it seems more likely that you don't get multiple procs. If that is true, then I'd estimate the average damage per hit to be roughly 4-6.


That totally makes sense. I have had blitz fail to get going a few times now - so the randomness can make it fail. Anyways, the U24 will increase the starting charge to 3. That will make it nearly always on if you're paying attention when you start it.

Yeah that change should make it fairly difficult to not get a blitz going. It might even make blitzing on EN/EH an option.


You evil toasters!!!

Hehe.

Singular
11-21-2014, 12:29 PM
I asked about crushing wave in another thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/450881-Thunderforged-for-Assassins) and two people said they think it just resets the timer. So still no confirmation, but it seems more likely that you don't get multiple procs. If that is true, then I'd estimate the average damage per hit to be roughly 4-6.

My reasoning went like this. Here's what the wiki claims: "5% Chance of 3 ticks of 30-40 Cold and 30-40 Bludgeon Damage over 6 seconds (180-240 damage, 210 average)
Average of 10.5 damage per attack."

Let's say it's proccing a lot and it overwrites itself. That would mean you'd constantly be getting 30-40 cold damage and 30-40 bludgeon dam, no? Then it would reset and you'd get that again.


Yeah that change should make it fairly difficult to not get a blitz going. It might even make blitzing on EN/EH an option.

hahaha! Cthru, you're such a kidder. I think you might be able to get it up if you had a bunch of mobs lined up with IPS - but really, on EN mobs are so fragile they explode out of fear for you. Maybe if you were soloing EH.

CThruTheEgo
11-21-2014, 01:59 PM
My reasoning went like this. Here's what the wiki claims: "5% Chance of 3 ticks of 30-40 Cold and 30-40 Bludgeon Damage over 6 seconds (180-240 damage, 210 average)
Average of 10.5 damage per attack."

Let's say it's proccing a lot and it overwrites itself. That would mean you'd constantly be getting 30-40 cold damage and 30-40 bludgeon dam, no? Then it would reset and you'd get that again.

It's 210 average damage over 3 ticks. Divide 210 by 5% (the chance to proc) and you get 10.5 average damage per hit. It's 60-80 damage for 1 tick, or 70 average. Divide 70 by 5% and you get 3.5 average damage per hit. So if it's proccing consistently enough to only get 1 tick before it resets, then you're only getting 3.5 damage from it, even if it's proccing often enough to keep it up constantly.

In actual practice, though, it would proc after each tick at a variable rate. It would proc after the first tick often (I'd estimate about 50% of the time), and after the second tick less often (I'd estimate about 40% of the time), and after the third tick rarely (I'd estimate about 10% of the time). Those estimates led me to the conclusion that it would end up granting about 4-6 average damage per hit.

adrian69
12-27-2014, 07:55 PM
I must have looked at that 100 times yesterday and read 2-12 each time. Crazy. Thanks for the clarification - I'll fix it.

We are all human and DDO math gets overly complicated anyway.

Thanks for starting this post. It's needed, not only for Needle, but for some of the other weapons as well. I still argue the value of Sireth>tier 2 TF Stick, which I feel is a no brainer but yet have this discussion it seems once per month. Unfortunately, I lost my ability to want to calculate any sort of number after my B.A. in English and earning my MFA in Creative Writing, working as a middle school teacher. So, thanks for the math. I like reading the breakdowns.