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cdemeritt
10-30-2014, 11:03 AM
So using the downtime to play around and try to somewhat plan out a pali. I want to do something totally different from my norm, and go S&B this time. However, I can't seem to make up my mind about his weapon....

So BS or DA or something else and why?

unbongwah
10-30-2014, 01:31 PM
It basically boils down to whether or not you're going to invest in glancing blows by taking the THF chain. Pros: moar DPS! Cons: no feats left over for other things, like metamagics or tactics feats.

I posted a pure human pally here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/450766-New-player-looking-for-(rather-specific)-builds?p=5462156&viewfull=1#post5462156): starts out using 2H weapons, then swaps to S&B w/b.sword and THF chain at higher levels. If you wish to go S&B the whole way, here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/449879-Build-Request-S-amp-B-Pally-Tank-Damage?p=5450899&viewfull=1#post5450899) is a slightly different version: same feats, just tweaks the order to take Shield Mastery ASAP. Dwarf using axes instead is almost identical; just drops b.sword prof, obviously.

cdemeritt
11-03-2014, 08:28 AM
It basically boils down to whether or not you're going to invest in glancing blows by taking the THF chain. Pros: moar DPS! Cons: no feats left over for other things, like metamagics or tactics feats.

I posted a pure human pally here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/450766-New-player-looking-for-(rather-specific)-builds?p=5462156&viewfull=1#post5462156): starts out using 2H weapons, then swaps to S&B w/b.sword and THF chain at higher levels. If you wish to go S&B the whole way, here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/449879-Build-Request-S-amp-B-Pally-Tank-Damage?p=5450899&viewfull=1#post5450899) is a slightly different version: same feats, just tweaks the order to take Shield Mastery ASAP. Dwarf using axes instead is almost identical; just drops b.sword prof, obviously.

Thank you,
I was still stuck in the past where Bastard Sword users were laughed at. I had been considered Khopesh or Scimitars, (and forgot they had added the Glancing blows to DA & BS). Another Pro to the THF chain, is that if you find the need, you can pull out a Great Sword or Falchion, as needed...

So I'm planning a 18/2 Pali/fighter unless I find some compelling reason to do a 16/4 or a 15/4/? split (so far, I have not seen any compelling enough reason to do any of these) the 2 fighter essentially adds 3 feats (tower shield prof, +2) helping on that feat starvedness...

Luckily I had a abandoned Lvl 12 Human Cleric, which I used the +20 HoW on, and so far I've been very happy with this toon as a Pali...

unbongwah
11-03-2014, 09:12 AM
If going regular S&B, a pure Vanguard is the way to go, IMO, because of the DPS bonuses from core enhancements: +15% attack speed and +5% doublestrike. Multiclassing is about trading DPS for other benefits, like more feats or added defenses.

Bloodskittle
11-03-2014, 09:14 PM
A pure paladin will be more dps and depending on how you build it better survivability (sacred defender capstone) remember that a dwarf and a human will have the same amount of feats if you intend to spend one on exotic weapon proficiency. If you want to tank an 18/2 split will serve you best as far as feats are concerned but a pure paladin is definitely workable, the main issue is you might have to sacrifice proficiency with tower shields, remember though that the Madstone Aegis gives tower shield proficiency and is also a very powerful offensive shield so in effect you could manage the same amount of feats on a pure and actually gain more from enhancements. Sorry if this was at all incoherent.

CThruTheEgo
11-04-2014, 12:39 AM
you might have to sacrifice proficiency with tower shields

Master's touch scrolls will also grant tower shield proficiency and have a very low UMD requirement.

Bloodskittle
11-04-2014, 04:43 AM
Hadn't even thought about that, could you master's touch the bastard sword too? because that would give some reason for going human.

CThruTheEgo
11-04-2014, 06:57 AM
Hadn't even thought about that, could you master's touch the bastard sword too? because that would give some reason for going human.

Master's touch (http://ddowiki.com/page/Master's_Touch) grants simple, martial, or shield proficiency, and the item must be in the offhand since you're using a scroll. Being an exotic weapon, you cannot use master's touch to gain bastard sword proficiency. Dwarves, however, can use it to gain dwarven waraxe proficiency.

Horkster
11-04-2014, 09:16 AM
Master's touch (http://ddowiki.com/page/Master's_Touch) Dwarves, however, can use it to gain dwarven waraxe proficiency.

Just a point of clarification, in case it was not understood - dwarven paladins already have dwarven waraxe proficiency. Fear teh beards! :{D>

Horkster

unbongwah
11-04-2014, 09:44 AM
Another Pro to the THF chain, is that if you find the need, you can pull out a Great Sword or Falchion, as needed...
My view is 2H weapons start out strong, but they do not get the big jumps in DPS that other combat styles; i.e., they have a flatter power curve, in part because glancing blows don't crit. Whereas S&B starts out weak, but gets significantly stronger over time thanks to the new Vanguard PrE and Shield Mastery bonuses; if you can afford the THF chain and b.sword/d.axe prof as well, that's even more DPS.

Which is to say: using 2H weapons early on makes sense, IMO, particularly if you've got a Carnifex or other nice weapon handy; but once you're fully invested into S&B, you shouldn't need to switch weapons anymore. Indeed, you'll probably do less DPS switching from S&B to 2H after you're fully invested in Vanguard and have maxed out your shield bonuses.

CThruTheEgo
11-04-2014, 02:35 PM
Just a point of clarification, in case it was not understood - dwarven paladins already have dwarven waraxe proficiency. Fear teh beards! :{D>

Horkster

Aye. I did not specify this, but that is correct.

And that's the first time I've ever seen a dwarven smiley. Awesome.

elraido
11-04-2014, 04:12 PM
Bottled tornado? Don't hurt me!!

Bloodskittle
11-04-2014, 05:18 PM
If you want to have THF feats, exotic wep prof. feats and shield mastery feats and still have a few non dps angled feats left over I strongly suggest trying out the fighter Vanguard, yes you lose holy sword and zeal but you gain some other nice goodies.
If you're stuck on Paladin however all I can say is ignore the THF feats they are a trap, better to angle towards shield mastery.

cdemeritt
11-14-2014, 08:58 PM
So when I started this thread, I had serious doubts about Bastard Swords, being they were laughed at for the longest time....

however, This one:
http://i.imgur.com/SyVZqab.jpg

Nightmanis
11-14-2014, 11:02 PM
If you want to have THF feats, exotic wep prof. feats and shield mastery feats and still have a few non dps angled feats left over I strongly suggest trying out the fighter Vanguard, yes you lose holy sword and zeal but you gain some other nice goodies.
If you're stuck on Paladin however all I can say is ignore the THF feats they are a trap, better to angle towards shield mastery.

Pure fighter isn't actually that bad of an idea. You've got so many feats you actually end up with some left over. The biggest problem is obviously healing, but a cocoon twist and running in DC mostly solves that. And with the new Harper tree, you end up with a higher equivalent strength (based of damage mod and tactics bonus) than a paladin can achieve. Plus a max sustained doublestrike of 65% (60% just using DC for doublestrike) and +30% attack speed makes for actually a pretty potent setup.

Nightmanis
11-14-2014, 11:09 PM
On topic though, I'd only go with dwarven axes if you're running in dread, prefer the look, or have epic completionist. The +1 crit to axes and anvil of thunder from dread make a it a no brainer, and if you have epic completionist anvil can be twisted.

Otherwise I'd go with bastard, simply because drow ones are cheap, nightmare is amazing, and you can end up with an 11-20 crit range.

BigErkyKid
11-28-2014, 05:26 PM
Pure fighter isn't actually that bad of an idea. You've got so many feats you actually end up with some left over. The biggest problem is obviously healing, but a cocoon twist and running in DC mostly solves that. And with the new Harper tree, you end up with a higher equivalent strength (based of damage mod and tactics bonus) than a paladin can achieve. Plus a max sustained doublestrike of 65% (60% just using DC for doublestrike) and +30% attack speed makes for actually a pretty potent setup.

How do you get 60% DBS?

15% from legendary shield mastery, 5% from pTWF, +5% captsone vanguard. You can add 10% from DC if you want for a grand total of 35%.

Regarding attack speed, why 30%? You mean boosting?

You cannot stack further enhancement bonus to DBS since DC is enhancement.

Now, a paladin can stack +10% from zeal completely ahead of fighter. Not to mention that if you go to cap in vanguard you won't have enough points to get much into defender and will not get to keen edge, so your crit profile will be way worse.

I just don't see the appeal of pure fighter for a vanguard, seems inferior to me :P

Annyee
12-16-2014, 06:42 AM
3 Questions to the OP.
1. What build do you want? Full DPS S&B Pally, EE Tank, or something in the middle?
2. How many feats are you going to have and what are you wanting to spend them on?
3. What Weapons do you have access to?
Right now for Top DPS S&B style would be Bastard Sword. However this requires that you have Exotic Weapon B.Sword, 2HF, Improved 2HF, Greater 2HF, and Perfect 2HF. That is 4 feats and a ED feat. Throw in Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery and we are at 6. Improved Shield Bash brings us to 7 heroic used. Of course you would not turn down Improved Critical so even as a human you are now out of heroic feats. This it the price of having a top S&B DPS for a pure Pally.
You also have to look at weapons. What do you have available to you? A Thunderforge Tier 3 wet noddle can put enough DPS for EE. Assuming you have a supporting build and gear. I would stay away from D.Axes. On average even if you are a Dwarf and spend the Points to get the full Dwarf axe line an equal rating bastard sword will out DPS it. A fully upgraded Nightmare is no DPS to scoff at. Also good at lower epic lvls are Drow Weapons.
If you have access to T3 Thunderforge weapons, and do not want to spend 4 feats on a weapon type Khopesh's are an alternative. A bastard sword without the 2HF line will be out DPS'ed by an equal Khopesh, assuming the mob has little fortification which most do not. Undead/Constructs would be the most glaring exceptions.
Even with the recent Holy Sword nerf (Good job Devs, that really solved the OP problem of Monkchers, Swashbucklers and the under preforming Barbs) my Khopesh Pally has enough DPS to solo EE well enough and hold Boss agro on EE raids.
Key phrase is "well enough". Everyone is different.
I have to disclose, He is not a full Pally. 16/2/2 Pally/Ftr/Mnk Split helps the feats out A LOT.