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View Full Version : Shroud of the Vampire (Dev's please respond?)



edrein
10-25-2014, 03:00 PM
Ever since the Enhancement Pass I've wondered and debated the changes to the Shroud of the Vampire form. The old form was infinitely better than the new one, even without the ability to remove the light damage penalties with Improved Shrouding, which makes me question the nerf.

For those of you who don't remember the old version I shall post them back to back.

-Old-


Shroud of the Vampire

Usage: Active
Cost: 1 action points
Progression: 43 action points
Requires All of: Toughness, Wizard Pale Master II
Available to Wizard level 12
You shroud yourself with negative energy and assume many traits of a vampire. While in this form, you gain +2 Strength, +2 Charisma, and using your dominating powers generate 25% less threat from spells and attacks, and +2 to the DCs of your Enchantment spells. You deal 1d6 Constitution damage from blood drain on critical hits, and your unarmed and melee attacks heal you for 1 point of negative energy damage. You have +100% critical hit resistance, are healed by negative energy, and are unaffected by positive energy or repair effects, but take quadruple damage from light effects. You are considered undead rather than your original type for the purposes of most effects. This ability costs 100 spell points to activate.
Note: You may cast Death Aura, Lesser Death Aura, and Negative Energy Burst to self heal. You don't make saving throws against helpful negative energy spells for half healing, and spells beneficial to Undead will no longer trigger spell resistance when cast on you by a Party member.


-New-



Shroud of the Vampire: Shroud Toggle: You shroud yourself with negative energy and assume many of the traits of a vampire. (Activation Cost: 50 Spell Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds)

While in this form, you gain +2 Strength, +2 Charisma, +2 to the DC's of your Enchantment spells, and generate 25% less threat from spells and attacks.
On Vorpal Melee Hit: Your attack causes Energy Drain, inflicting 1 Negative Level on your victim.
You have +100% critical hit resistance, are healed by negative energy, and are unaffected by positive energy or repair effects, but take triple damage from light effects.
You are considered undead rather than your original type for the purpose of most effects.


So to dev team, why the change? And could we possibly see a change to this in U24 alongside the barbarians? This would be a quick revision, personally I say blend the two. Just give the new version the lesser lifesteal on the basic version and perhaps a 1d3 (vampirism) effect on the Improved Shrouding version. And could we perhaps see the lifesteal scale with melee power? As well as scaling Lich form's melee damage effect to melee power as well? This would open more options force melee wizards with the new meta-game introduced with melee power and the Harper tree without requiring an entire revamp of Eldritch Knight.

edrein
10-25-2014, 03:07 PM
To clarify, the biggest issue here is that you have to take a T5 enhancement to unlock the most basic feature of being a vampire. LIFESTEALING. You cannot really self sustain yourself as a vampire without it. Which is a bit silly and a definite nerf to the shroud form.

Scrabbler
10-25-2014, 03:14 PM
Ever since the Enhancement Pass I've wondered and debated the changes to the Shroud of the Vampire form. The old form was infinitely better than the new one, even without the ability to remove the light damage penalties with Improved Shrouding, which makes me question the nerf.
What nerf? You mean the Constitution damage on critical hits, compared to negative level on Vorpal?? Especially back in those old days, nobody really cared about minor melee bonuses on a Wizard. It's debatable whether a neg level is better or worse than Con damage; in Epic it's surely better.



This would be a quick revision, personally I say blend the two. Just give the new version the lesser lifesteal on the basic version and perhaps a 1d3 (vampirism) effect on the Improved Shrouding version.
The old Vampire form required 12 Wizard levels, locked you out of any other Wizard prestige, and granted +1 self healing on attacks. The new Vampire form requires 6 Wizard levels, allows use of any other prestige tree, and can grant +1 self healing on attacks once you're total 12 levels in any classes.

But you say you'd like the self-healing added to the level 6 version, and then doubled at level 12? Even though EK now gives Wizards a faster attack rate, better accuracy, and more PPR. What's the justification for buffing it like that?


the most basic feature of being a vampire. LIFESTEALING.
Find any random Vampire monster in DDO, damage it a little, then let it hit you. Does its hp increase from hitting you?


You cannot really self sustain yourself as a vampire without it.
Sustain yourself as vampire = Death Aura.

Saekee
10-25-2014, 03:48 PM
splash monk & use grave wrappings

edrein
10-25-2014, 05:31 PM
Even though EK now gives Wizards a faster attack rate, better accuracy, and more PPR. What's the justification for buffing it like that?


You realize that the way for you to get the better attack rate (BAB) requires you to take the T5 from Eldritch Knight, which you cannot take at the same time as Improved Shrouding. If they ever make it where pure classes can take two T5s, then sure. Problem solved. However, a vampire build doesn't gain that much from Eldritch Knight because they are forced to take the Improved Shrouding for more self sustain.

Saekee
10-26-2014, 07:50 AM
You realize that the way for you to get the better attack rate (BAB) requires you to take the T5 from Eldritch Knight, which you cannot take at the same time as Improved Shrouding. If they ever make it where pure classes can take two T5s, then sure. Problem solved. However, a vampire build doesn't gain that much from Eldritch Knight because they are forced to take the Improved Shrouding for more self sustain.
hi edrein, you can always take enough wizard levels to self-cast Tensers. It can be scroll cast also for short durations.
I think the way to realize your build idea is through gear. I suggested grave wrappings and monk for their synergy. 1-3 level drain on vorpal hits PLUS the vamp's 1 level drain. You can zap them with an enervate spell to really reduce them. Grave wrappings also give 35 hp on vorpal. Similarly, you could do Calomel wraps and, if possible, slot them with a ruby of endless night. Other options include lootgen draining/feeding weapons and epic envenomed blades!

edrein
10-26-2014, 10:15 AM
hi edrein, you can always take enough wizard levels to self-cast Tensers. It can be scroll cast also for short durations.
I think the way to realize your build idea is through gear. I suggested grave wrappings and monk for their synergy. 1-3 level drain on vorpal hits PLUS the vamp's 1 level drain. You can zap them with an enervate spell to really reduce them. Grave wrappings also give 35 hp on vorpal. Similarly, you could do Calomel wraps and, if possible, slot them with a ruby of endless night. Other options include lootgen draining/feeding weapons and epic envenomed blades!

This isn't about a build or anything about the negative levels. It is about the actual vampirism effects and how the new version essentially nerfs self healing unless you take a T5 which locks you out of more beneficial effects for a melee wizard. Heroic Elites you can get by with death auras in most quests. But once you get to epics, hard and elite are nigh impossible to get by with just auras and neg burst. You need the vampirism, and for it to actually scale reasonably. With the whole melee power system and the attention being shown to certain classes, I was hoping that by asking this question the devs could slip in the change for vampire form.

Scrabbler
10-26-2014, 11:02 AM
It is about the actual vampirism effects and how the new version essentially nerfs self healing unless you take a T5 which locks you out of more beneficial effects for a melee wizard.
It is false to claim that the old version didn't lock you out of beneficial effects for melee Wizards. In the old version, taking ANY undead form would lock you out of the prestige features of other Wizard trees. If an Eldritch Knight prestige had existed back then, training an Undead form would've absolutely locked it out.


You need the vampirism, and for it to actually scale reasonably.
It never scaled before; this is a buff request, not an inquiry about a change.

edrein
10-26-2014, 11:23 AM
It is false to claim that the old version didn't lock you out of beneficial effects for melee Wizards. In the old version, taking ANY undead form would lock you out of the prestige features of other Wizard trees. If an Eldritch Knight prestige had existed back then, training an Undead form would've absolutely locked it out.


It never scaled before; this is a buff request, not an inquiry about a change.

The old version did lock you out of things, that's true. The issue was other than wraith form, which you would still get. You weren't locked out of much a pure wizard could benefit from back then.

Secondly, I did inquire about the change at the beginning and then I suggested a possible buff. Perhaps you should take a moment to read something before you start off into what looks like a tirade about how I'm wrong about how things were compared to now, and why a buff shouldn't happen.

As far as I can tell, you think everyone uses Vampire form for casting. Which I've rarely seen the case. It is a form that is mostly avoided now a days and saw a lot more use prior to the Enhancement Pass. That being said a lot more builds could incorporate the form if you got the basic Lifesteal like you used to with the base form. Locking players into a T5 for an effect that innately should be there is silly. But if you don't want to buff vampire form then simply swap the effects. Put the on critical negative levels to the Improved Shrouding enhancement, and make the base core have the lifesteal.

Saekee
10-26-2014, 12:06 PM
I agree that the healing should be part of the core.
The tier 5 should do: DR/10 Silver
and Souleater like grave wrappings (and have them stack!) or something similar (maybe on crit: 1d6 to random stat)

edrein
10-26-2014, 12:18 PM
I agree that the healing should be part of the core.
The tier 5 should do: DR/10 Silver
and Souleater like grave wrappings (and have them stack!) or something similar (maybe on crit: 1d6 to random stat)

If it were to be something defensive like that I would recommend giving us the actual vampire regeneration/fast heal. Simply have it scale with character level as the T5. Vampire and Zombie are severely lacking for Improved Shrouding.

RTFM
11-26-2014, 04:11 AM
To the OP:

I have been running a PM Melee recently (two different builds one pure wiz one 2rogue/18wiz). I can tell you that vampire form as it stands now in U23 my biggest complaint is that in epics on EE that one point of neg energy healing is useless. The con damage is also for the most part....useless. Lich is better for DC's and con, and Wraith is better for incorporal 25%.

That being said the new vampire as you have listed looks decent, and would be useable in some EE's. The 1 HP healing is gone...I found it useless anyway.

Now for leveling it might be useful, but then again leveling a PM melee if your negative energy spell power is maxed (augments, gear) then you should have no problem with aura and burst being enough for any undead form, I just did it several lives leveling and at cap and it is always pretty much enough.


Ever since the Enhancement Pass I've wondered and debated the changes to the Shroud of the Vampire form. The old form was infinitely better than the new one, even without the ability to remove the light damage penalties with Improved Shrouding, which makes me question the nerf.options force melee wizards with the new meta-game introduced with melee power and the Harper tree without requiring an entire revamp of Eldritch Knight.

dunsndras
03-16-2017, 12:18 PM
Just give the new version the lesser lifesteal on the basic version and perhaps a 1d3 (vampirism) effect on the Improved Shrouding version..

I'd settle for improved shrouding to give 1 point of negative damage healing but all it does is 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Broken enhancement making vampire monk pointless.

Mindos
03-16-2017, 07:21 PM
I'd settle for improved shrouding to give 1 point of negative damage healing but all it does is 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Broken enhancement making vampire monk pointless.

(1st post, best post!)

Are you running in Reaper difficulty? There's a healing debuff in there...


In b4 the (war)lock!

Saekee
03-17-2017, 07:52 AM
If it were to be something defensive like that I would recommend giving us the actual vampire regeneration/fast heal. Simply have it scale with character level as the T5. Vampire and Zombie are severely lacking for Improved Shrouding.


I'd settle for improved shrouding to give 1 point of negative damage healing but all it does is 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Broken enhancement making vampire monk pointless.

I am running a vampire melee monk & am taking tier 5 in the monk trees. I think this is inevitable since melee classes will have stronger melee tier5s and melee trees in general.
If you really want to help melee vanpires (which is pretty much all vampires) then I would do two separate buffs, one in core & the other in tier 5.
I think the vampirism & improved shroud should remain in the PM tier 5 but I still like some other melee-oriented buff in the core like the vorpal bodyfeeder (scaling with MP).