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View Full Version : Deadly Weapon vs. Holy Sword



Retrodark
10-23-2014, 01:52 PM
Deadly weapons is sort of lame now compared to the new version of Holy Sword.

Deadly = +1[W] - Requires lvl 15 Artificer. Can be cast on self and others. Can stack with Holy Sword (I think)
Holy Sword = +1 Enhancement, +1 crit range and multiplier - Requires lvl 14 Paladin. Can only be cast on self.

This is not a thread to complain about the new version of Holy Sword, but I am sure people will. I am just stating that Deadly Weapons is not very "Deadly", if it ever even was (maybe in its original state).

I would definitely build a pali to get Holy Sword, before I would build an arti to get Deadly.

Edited to update the changes to holy sword, and I keep my stance on Holy sword being far better.

Vellrad
10-23-2014, 02:05 PM
But deadly is buff that can be cast on anyone.
Compare deadly+insightful damage (with int focused build) to holy sword.

unbongwah
10-23-2014, 02:12 PM
Deadly Weapons', errr, deadliness has been falling behind ever since MotU introduced EDs. There's just soooo much power creep from all the DPS bonuses now - Deadly & Seeker items, ED abilities, PrE abilities like Keen Edge, and now Holy Sword, ofc - that an extra +1[W] is pretty laughable by comparison.

Artificers are the new bards: solid support toons with unique buffs that most folks don't want to play due to weak DPS. :rolleyes:

Oxarhamar
10-24-2014, 01:10 AM
But deadly is buff that can be cast on anyone.
Compare deadly+insightful damage (with int focused build) to holy sword.

Sorry Mate Deadly + Insightful strikes on INT Built is not equal or even comparably close to Holy Sword on (Any Stat to Damage) Build.

Kriogen
10-24-2014, 06:51 AM
...
Artificers are the new bards: solid support toons with unique buffs that most folks don't want to play due to weak DPS. :rolleyes:
Those unique buffs are not that unique. I'd scratch that "with unique buffs".

PrimalConcreteSledge
10-24-2014, 08:48 AM
You people are crazy...

+1W that is permanent and can be cast on an entire group is not deadly?

The real problem may be in your own W. Or the lack of multipliers to apply to it...

It does feel more than a bit underwhelming when your own buff gives double benefit to a greataxe wealding pally...

unbongwah
10-24-2014, 08:49 AM
Compare deadly+insightful damage (with int focused build) to holy sword.
In the long run, crit bonuses like Keen Edge or Holy Sword are worth more DPS than static bonuses like Deadly Weapons. Insightful Dmg+Know the Angles give arties a nice 1.5x dmg bonus from INT, but BE just isn't that competitive of a DPS tree, IMHO.

Does Holy Sword work with repeaters? If so, I'm curious if anyone's tried a pal 14+ / arty 4+ build w/Harper yet.

Those unique buffs are not that unique.
In this case, "unique buffs" basically boils down to "Deadly Weapons." I was just being charitable by making it plural. :p

Singular
10-24-2014, 12:44 PM
In the long run, crit bonuses like Keen Edge or Holy Sword are worth more DPS than static bonuses like Deadly Weapons. Insightful Dmg+Know the Angles give arties a nice 1.5x dmg bonus from INT, but BE just isn't that competitive of a DPS tree, IMHO.

Does Holy Sword work with repeaters? If so, I'm curious if anyone's tried a pal 14+ / arty 4+ build w/Harper yet.

In this case, "unique buffs" basically boils down to "Deadly Weapons." I was just being charitable by making it plural. :p

What...what...what about enchant armor?!? And Thundering Armor!

Yeah, ok, you're right. Thunderholme weapons invalidated almost all artie buffs except for the above + Deadly Weapons. And it's really only adding something like 1-12 critable damage.

We should petition for better spells! And some that only work on self!

Oxarhamar
10-24-2014, 02:31 PM
In the long run, crit bonuses like Keen Edge or Holy Sword are worth more DPS than static bonuses like Deadly Weapons. Insightful Dmg+Know the Angles give arties a nice 1.5x dmg bonus from INT, but BE just isn't that competitive of a DPS tree, IMHO.

Does Holy Sword work with repeaters? If so, I'm curious if anyone's tried a pal 14+ / arty 4+ build w/Harper yet.

In this case, "unique buffs" basically boils down to "Deadly Weapons." I was just being charitable by making it plural. :p

Yes Holy Sword works on all weapons. tested on Lamania

Running in live. full time Repeater Bladeforged Harper Battle Engineer w/ Holy Sword.


Btw I've been playing Repeater builds since Arti hit live and after the enhancement pass there was always more DPS in other class trees than going pure for deadly (at least for repeater DPS)

Oxarhamar
10-25-2014, 12:39 AM
deleted link was not cooperating

AtomicMew
10-26-2014, 06:34 AM
Yes Holy Sword works on all weapons. tested on Lamania

Running in live. full time Repeater Bladeforged Harper Battle Engineer w/ Holy Sword.


Btw I've been playing Repeater builds since Arti hit live and after the enhancement pass there was always more DPS in other class trees than going pure for deadly (at least for repeater DPS)

Thinking of something similar, mind outlining your build a bit? I'm thinking 14 pal/4 arti/2 fighter. 4 arti to pick up insightful strikes, as I've been seeing some misses in MoD. 2 fighter for feats.

Toro12
10-26-2014, 09:42 AM
Thinking of something similar, mind outlining your build a bit? I'm thinking 14 pal/4 arti/2 fighter. 4 arti to pick up insightful strikes, as I've been seeing some misses in MoD. 2 fighter for feats.

Harper has insightful strike (strategic combat) as a tier 1. You don't need 4 arti for that. 3ap will get the job done , along with side bonus of +1 vs evil and +1 USP

Oxarhamar
10-26-2014, 11:48 AM
Thinking of something similar, mind outlining your build a bit? I'm thinking 14 pal/4 arti/2 fighter. 4 arti to pick up insightful strikes, as I've been seeing some misses in MoD. 2 fighter for feats.

What feats do you want from Fighter?

2 Monk grants Evasion & 2 Martial Arts feats (Dodge & Precision for me)


I was forced to take Monk to fit in Precision.
I would rather have had Rogue for more skill points
(though my build is capable of any trap in the game on EE if perfer to get spot up a bit higher so I can detect the traps a bit better I don't have the memory required to know the locations of every trap without thousands of runs of the same quests quests like Haunted Halls I find it easy to remember the traps but, in quests with spell wards in mundane locations I find it much more difficult to remember.) more of a convenience thing for me.

As the above poster, Harper gets both INT to hit & Damage.

still I take 4 Artificer for Endless fusillade.
(all of my builds always have EF no matter what Pastlife I am after I just take 4 Arti levels & 6 Rogue for Mechanic then ignore the 3rd class entirely.)

with Harper tree I can now take 4 Artificer levels go up Battle Engineer to EF Take Harper to Improved Deseption & spend the rest of the point wherever (Racial tree normally)

I have had no trouble adjusting to this build this is how I have built my Artificer for Ages.

Other notable builds I've enjoyed before 4 Arti 6 Rogue 10 Wizard Battle Engireer/ Mechanic with self buffing Displacement haste etc... Nice amount of SP. same concept with 4/6/10 Arti Rogue Sorc. Then there's Arti/Rogue/Clr or FVS for self healings.

Before Holy Sword I enjoyed 6Arti 8Fighter 6 Rogue. Kensei Battle Engineer.

Never enjoyed the 6 Arti 6 Ranger AA Arrow of slaying variants I find the big spikes in damage boring same for using Fury ED for Adrenaline. I want consistent DPS. I want to get the most damage I can out of every bolt.

Oxarhamar
10-28-2014, 04:39 AM
Harper Overlord


14 Paladin 4 Artificer 2 Monk

Enhancements


38 Harper
(Core)
Agent of good I
INT
Agent of Good II
INT
Agent of Good III
(Tree)
Harper Enhancement
Strategic Combat I
Know The Angles (3/3)
Versatile Adept I (3/3)
Highly Skilled (2/3)
Versatile Adept II (3/3)
Strategic Combat II
INT
Versatile Adept III (3/3)
Magic of Austerity
INT
Enhancement of Deception
Versatile Adept IV (3/3)

24 Battle Engineer
(Core)
Battle Engineer
Infused Weapons
(Tree)
Crossbow Training
Field Engineer (3/3)
Crossbow Training
Ranged Wrack Construct (1/3) < mostly taken over Damage Boost to spend 1 point vs. 2 and advance to the next tier
Crossbow Training
Extra Action Boost (3/3)
INT
Crossbow Training
Endless Fusilage

18 Bladeforged
(Cores)
Improved Fortification
Warforged Constitution
Improved Fortification
Warforged Constitution
(Tree)
Healers Friend (1/3) < prefer having both moderately strong Recon & Positive Healing to one or the other.
Inscribed Armor (1/3) < no more 5% failure on Scrolls Composite Body Plating (Inscribed Armor in Battle Engineer requires 6 Artificer levels)
Communion of Scribing (3/3)
Weapon Attachment
Communion of Handling
Power of the Forge


Feats (Not listed in leveling order as I don't have them charted out I just choose them as I go I've built using the same feats since ~U18 for every Artificer based life save special lives like Kensei or no Monk I prefer Rogue etc.. but this is the basic concept )
Point Blank Shot
Completionist
Dodge (monk Bonus)
Precision (monk bonus)
Precise Shot
Improved Precise shot
Insightful Reflexes
Quicken (Artificer Bonus)
Improved Critical Ranged
Rapid Shot
Bladesworn Transformation (Bladeforged Paladin freebie)

Epic
Combat Archery
Overwhelming Critical
Holy Strike
Blinding speed
Double Shot


The build is a bit of a glass cannon. I choose DPS options on about every bit of gear/enhancement/feats I can over defense in most cases but, I've enjoyed it even before Holy Sword it played basically the same just with different buffs dependent on class splits.

This is a Full time Repeater No offensive casting or Runearm firing all SP is used for self buffs & Healing.


(Before Harper Tree)
I've taken any class split with 4-6 Artificer Levels into EE content using this basic framework in EVERY Sphere for ETR purposes (Fatesinger Being the weakest)
I have also used this framework to play every Iconic race it doesn't really matter things change here and there but 24 points in Battle Engineer in the basic starting point on all my lives.

adrian69
12-29-2014, 12:25 PM
Deadly weapons is sort of lame now compared to the new version of Holy Sword.

Deadly = +1[W] - Requires lvl 15 Artificer. Can be cast on self and others. Can stack with Holy Sword (I think)
Holy Sword = +1[W], +2 Enhancement, +1 crit range and multiplier - Requires lvl 14 Paladin. Can only be cast on self. It is basically a self cast only deadly weapons on steroids.

This is not a thread to complain about the new version of Holy Sword, but I am sure people will. I am just stating that Deadly Weapons is not very "Deadly", if it ever even was (maybe in its original state).

I would definitely build a pali to get Holy Sword, before I would build an arti to get Deadly.

Per this thread and future readers, Holy Sword was nerfed in U24 and lost +1[w] and -1 to threat range.

+1 crit still makes Holy have some edge over deadly.

unbongwah
12-29-2014, 01:17 PM
Per this thread and future readers, Holy Sword was nerfed in U24 and lost +1[w] and -1 to threat range.
From the U24 release notes (http://ddowiki.com/page/Update_24_Release_Notes): "Holy Sword no longer provides a +1(W) bonus, and the added enhancement bonus has been reduced from +2 to +1." Note that the threat range has not been reduced; it's the enhancement bonus which went down.

Seikojin
12-29-2014, 02:04 PM
I will not say no to any arti offering DW for my pally. Just sayin.

Inoukchuk
12-29-2014, 02:09 PM
I'm too lazy to make my own thread, so I'm hijacking yours =)

Does anyone know if effects like Ribcracking increase with holy sword? so, for instance, would a x3 weapon like Skullsmasher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Skullsmasher_(Level_14)) get 9-90 on crit (be treated as x4) or 9-72?

unbongwah
12-29-2014, 02:14 PM
Does anyone know if effects like Ribcracking increase with holy sword?
I think Ribcracker / Heartseeker is based on the base weapon crit multiplier and is not increased by Holy Sword or Swashbuckling. But tbh I'm not sure how to test to confirm that.

Inoukchuk
12-29-2014, 03:05 PM
I think Ribcracker / Heartseeker is based on the base weapon crit multiplier and is not increased by Holy Sword or Swashbuckling. But tbh I'm not sure how to test to confirm that.

Well, that's generally disappointing. Thanks for answering!

Has anyone out there tested this and can answer definitively?

dunklezhan
12-29-2014, 04:03 PM
The real problem may be in your own W.

Best. Euphemism. EVAH.

Toro12
12-29-2014, 05:35 PM
Well, that's generally disappointing. Thanks for answering!

Has anyone out there tested this and can answer definitively?


Yes confirmed by a dev a few months back. I'm too lazy to look back through the dev tracker but it is there.

ValariusK
12-30-2014, 01:06 PM
I played a pally for 2 ETRs two lives ago and a bard last life. My current life is an artificer. All three lives are under recent rule sets (although my pally had the extra +1 and +1W from his holy sword).
Holy sword vs deadly weapons is the wrong comparison to be making. Of course holy sword is way better for the caster than deadly weapons.
To compare the 3 lives---note that they're all conducted with the same player (me), with good but not superlative gear, and on a multi TR with fully buffed out EDs going in. So, IMO, this is the closest thing to a fair comparison as you're going to get. My emphasis is on levels 1-27, I don't linger at level 28, I generally ETR as soon as I can get the heart made.

Paladin: I played a human vanguard first ETR and while levelling in heroic, and a swf/orb KOTC for the 2nd etr. The paladin has good damage and superb defense and nearly no utility (yeah, I occasionally tossed an LOH to save someone and gave a few buffs, but mostly I just killed things. Thing about the paladin right now---just about any obvious build will work very well, you don't need to tune it very much. Just pick a capstone and a fighting style that works with it and you'll do fine on a pure pally build.
Bard: I played a drow variant of the count of Monte Cristo DPS was slightly higher as the bard, as I had the shouts to periodically give me some AE and lots of ways to leverage helpless opponents. Utility was very strong and I added a lot of DPS to whatever party I was in (spellsong trance, inspire excellence, fragments of the song, inspire courage plus a number of cast buffs). Someone using selfless accounting (i.e., not me) would say this build had the highest DPS because of what it added to the median party that it was in. Defense was ok, I had to kite around a lot and make a lot of use of fascinate.
Artificer: warforged slight variant of Dubbel 0 seven. I think the arti is the most sensitive of the 3 by far to your enhancement selection and particular feat choice. DPS overall is good. My kill contribution is pretty comparable to the pally and bard life---that is, I can stay comparable to strong players with strong builds and will usually lead random pugs handily. IPS is annoying---only works really well on large targets like trolls and giants---it worked way better as a halfling thrower, but when IPS is working, artificer dps goes through the roof. Side note, I REALLY HATE the way ips is sensitive to your race and sex (model size).
The artificer brings excellent trapping to the table and lots of buffs. Deadly weapons may not be as good as holy weapon for YOU, but you can stack it or something more appropriate (like a DR breaker or elemental weapons for a shuriken tosser or enchant weapon for a pure caster) on everyone. Armor of speed is particularly nice to give to people also--basically a long-lasting personal haste. You've got a dog for utility purposes (although I wish he'd stay put when ordered) and some moderately good utility spells. For instance, blade barrier works wonders for playing with mob AI. A lot of monsters will revert to missile fire (and do way less damage) when you put a blade barrier between you and them. That, IMO is even better than them walking through it (giants in particular are prone to this).

gwonbush
12-30-2014, 07:32 PM
Yes confirmed by a dev a few months back. I'm too lazy to look back through the dev tracker but it is there.

You sure? I've tested with a Swashbuckler and it seemed to increase it to me.

Oxarhamar
01-08-2015, 02:07 AM
I played a pally for 2 ETRs two lives ago and a bard last life. My current life is an artificer. All three lives are under recent rule sets (although my pally had the extra +1 and +1W from his holy sword).
Holy sword vs deadly weapons is the wrong comparison to be making. Of course holy sword is way better for the caster than deadly weapons.
To compare the 3 lives---note that they're all conducted with the same player (me), with good but not superlative gear, and on a multi TR with fully buffed out EDs going in. So, IMO, this is the closest thing to a fair comparison as you're going to get. My emphasis is on levels 1-27, I don't linger at level 28, I generally ETR as soon as I can get the heart made.

Paladin: I played a human vanguard first ETR and while levelling in heroic, and a swf/orb KOTC for the 2nd etr. The paladin has good damage and superb defense and nearly no utility (yeah, I occasionally tossed an LOH to save someone and gave a few buffs, but mostly I just killed things. Thing about the paladin right now---just about any obvious build will work very well, you don't need to tune it very much. Just pick a capstone and a fighting style that works with it and you'll do fine on a pure pally build.
Bard: I played a drow variant of the count of Monte Cristo DPS was slightly higher as the bard, as I had the shouts to periodically give me some AE and lots of ways to leverage helpless opponents. Utility was very strong and I added a lot of DPS to whatever party I was in (spellsong trance, inspire excellence, fragments of the song, inspire courage plus a number of cast buffs). Someone using selfless accounting (i.e., not me) would say this build had the highest DPS because of what it added to the median party that it was in. Defense was ok, I had to kite around a lot and make a lot of use of fascinate.
Artificer: warforged slight variant of Dubbel 0 seven. I think the arti is the most sensitive of the 3 by far to your enhancement selection and particular feat choice. DPS overall is good. My kill contribution is pretty comparable to the pally and bard life---that is, I can stay comparable to strong players with strong builds and will usually lead random pugs handily. IPS is annoying---only works really well on large targets like trolls and giants---it worked way better as a halfling thrower, but when IPS is working, artificer dps goes through the roof. Side note, I REALLY HATE the way ips is sensitive to your race and sex (model size).
The artificer brings excellent trapping to the table and lots of buffs. Deadly weapons may not be as good as holy weapon for YOU, but you can stack it or something more appropriate (like a DR breaker or elemental weapons for a shuriken tosser or enchant weapon for a pure caster) on everyone. Armor of speed is particularly nice to give to people also--basically a long-lasting personal haste. You've got a dog for utility purposes (although I wish he'd stay put when ordered) and some moderately good utility spells. For instance, blade barrier works wonders for playing with mob AI. A lot of monsters will revert to missile fire (and do way less damage) when you put a blade barrier between you and them. That, IMO is even better than them walking through it (giants in particular are prone to this).

except that comparatively my full repeater 14 Paladin 4 Artificer 2 monk is going to be better DPS thanks to holy sword, better at traps thanks to higher saves & evasion. The only thing it loses is offensive casting but, that is replaced by freeing up all those spell points to self healing & buffing.

so yes comparatively Holy Sword > Deadly for an Artificer if they want to focus on Repeater DPS.

no offence but, your trying to compare your melee Paladin & swash to Ranged Casting Artificer. Try Comparing a Ranged Casting Pure Artificer to a Holy sword wielding Artificer Repeater build.

Oxarhamar
02-19-2015, 06:56 PM
Well, that's generally disappointing. Thanks for answering!

Has anyone out there tested this and can answer definitively?

I've tried it.

Did not see any difference.

I only tried on the test dummy with a loot gen heartseeker w/ w/o holy sword a couple dozen times numbers looked on average to be the same. I did not do a formal test

rockingsuphastar
09-07-2015, 10:09 AM
Harper Overlord


14 Paladin 4 Artificer 2 Monk

Enhancements


38 Harper
(Core)
Agent of good I
INT
Agent of Good II
INT
Agent of Good III
(Tree)
Harper Enhancement
Strategic Combat I
Know The Angles (3/3)
Versatile Adept I (3/3)
Highly Skilled (2/3)
Versatile Adept II (3/3)
Strategic Combat II
INT
Versatile Adept III (3/3)
Magic of Austerity
INT
Enhancement of Deception
Versatile Adept IV (3/3)

24 Battle Engineer
(Core)
Battle Engineer
Infused Weapons
(Tree)
Crossbow Training
Field Engineer (3/3)
Crossbow Training
Ranged Wrack Construct (1/3) < mostly taken over Damage Boost to spend 1 point vs. 2 and advance to the next tier
Crossbow Training
Extra Action Boost (3/3)
INT
Crossbow Training
Endless Fusilage

18 Bladeforged
(Cores)
Improved Fortification
Warforged Constitution
Improved Fortification
Warforged Constitution
(Tree)
Healers Friend (1/3) < prefer having both moderately strong Recon & Positive Healing to one or the other.
Inscribed Armor (1/3) < no more 5% failure on Scrolls Composite Body Plating (Inscribed Armor in Battle Engineer requires 6 Artificer levels)
Communion of Scribing (3/3)
Weapon Attachment
Communion of Handling
Power of the Forge


Feats (Not listed in leveling order as I don't have them charted out I just choose them as I go I've built using the same feats since ~U18 for every Artificer based life save special lives like Kensei or no Monk I prefer Rogue etc.. but this is the basic concept )
Point Blank Shot
Completionist
Dodge (monk Bonus)
Precision (monk bonus)
Precise Shot
Improved Precise shot
Insightful Reflexes
Quicken (Artificer Bonus)
Improved Critical Ranged
Rapid Shot
Bladesworn Transformation (Bladeforged Paladin freebie)

Epic
Combat Archery
Overwhelming Critical
Holy Strike
Blinding speed
Double Shot


The build is a bit of a glass cannon. I choose DPS options on about every bit of gear/enhancement/feats I can over defense in most cases but, I've enjoyed it even before Holy Sword it played basically the same just with different buffs dependent on class splits.

This is a Full time Repeater No offensive casting or Runearm firing all SP is used for self buffs & Healing.


(Before Harper Tree)
I've taken any class split with 4-6 Artificer Levels into EE content using this basic framework in EVERY Sphere for ETR purposes (Fatesinger Being the weakest)
I have also used this framework to play every Iconic race it doesn't really matter things change here and there but 24 points in Battle Engineer in the basic starting point on all my lives.


Hi can you give the level progression break down and stats break down will this work on first lifer ?

Thanks

Lonnbeimnech
09-07-2015, 10:32 AM
Hi can you give the level progression break down and stats break down will this work on first lifer ?

Thanks

This thread is a year old and several things have changed since then.

You might want to look at this build instead, same idea, but more up to date.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/460624-Bringing-a-Gun-to-a-Knife-Fight

Oxarhamar
10-17-2015, 03:40 PM
Hi can you give the level progression break down and stats break down will this work on first lifer ?

Thanks

I agree the linked build provided by the previous poster is a good guide thou not exactly my flavor of play, I've evolved my own play over many lives little by little testing & tweaking different aspects as I go with mixes of the different classes.

I apologize that I do not have a first life build & leveling guide for you, I go mostly on memory knowing which feats are required & how to fit them in rather than having a guide. I don't have as much downtime as I've had in the past or I would draft up an general outline.

I would suggest test building on one of the character planners to see how they all fit togeather for you & most importantly make sure you'll reach the minimum STAT requirements for the feats. On a first lifer this may mean sacrificing max INT at character creation to get a few extra Dex.