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Severlin
10-14-2014, 02:46 PM
Greetings,

Today we want to discuss healing amplification. Our goal is to adjust it to be additive rather than multiplicative, in a way that benefits many players while minimizing the “nerf” to current players, particularly players who have created builds that extend into the extreme ranges of the current Healing Amplification system. We realize that any additive system will impact some players who are stacking Healing Amplification to the extreme, but in many cases this will have a beneficial or neutral impact to builds.

Why change it? We'd like introduce new sources of healing amplification on new items, but the team has been reluctant to do so with the current system because it is too powerful when stacked extremely high, and not good enough in small doses. With these changes we could add more items with healing amplification. We’d also like to give Barbarians lots of Healing Amplification as part of the Barbarian pass, but it just isn’t possible with our current multiplicative model.

Our current plan is to make Healing Amplification an additive rating and, to make it more effective in smaller doses, double the current values on enhancements and other sources of Healing Amplification. Healing Amplification would become a rating so it works just like Melee Power, Ranged Power and Spellpower. That is, Healing Amplification rating increases all healing by (100 + Rating) / 100. This would keep the game systems consistent. Repair Amplification would work the same, as well as values that allowed Pale Masters to heal with Negative Energy healing.

The current percentage values would be converted into a rating and then, to keep Healing Amplification competitive, the rating would be doubled. 10% Healing Amplification would become a rating of 20. 20% Healing Amplification would become a rating of 40.

To summarize:

~ Healing Amplication is turned into a rating which is additive.
~ Sources of Healing Amplication converted to an integer value and doubled.

As an example, the Human enhancement Improved Recovery would now give +20 Healing Amplification. If you also took the Paladin enhancement Vigor of Life from the Knight of the Chalice tree, it would provide +20 Healing Amplification for a total of 40. In this new case the character would increase all healing by a multiplier of 1.4 instead of a multiplier of 1.21.

Thus in smaller amounts players would see a buff.

What will this do to actual builds?

Let’s look at a build with healing amplification to see how it is affected.


Our first build has two Paladin past lives (currently 10%), healing amplification from Vigor of Life (currently 10%), a 30% healing amplification source, and a 20% healing amplification source.

On live this would be 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.3 * 1.2 for a total multiplier of ~1.887.

Under the new system this would be 20 + 20 + 60 + 40 for 140 Healing Amplification, which would be a multiplier to healing of 2.4 which is an increase in effectiveness.


Now let’s look at an extreme Human/Monk/Paladin hybrid build to see how high we can stack Healing Amplification currently.



Source Multiplier Product
Base for Living 1 100% 12 Monk
Fleshmaker 1.1 110% 5 Paladin
Human 1 1.1 121%
2 1.1 133%
3 1.1 146%
Monks Shintao 1.05 154%
3 1.05 161%
6 1.05 169%
12 1.05 178%
Paladin t3 1.1 196%
Paladin 4 1.1 272%
Paladin 5 1.1 272%
Crown of Summer (Druid) 1.15 272%
Item 10% 1.1 300%
Item 20% 1.2 360%
Item 30% 1.3 467%
Paladin PL x3 1.15 538%
Jidz-Tet'ka 1.25 672%
Guild 1.1 739%
Exalted Angel 1.03 761%
Exalted Angel 1.03 784%
Exalted Angel 1.04 816%
Unyielding Sentinel 1.1 897%


How this would look with the new system:




Source Multiplier Product
Base for Living 1.0 1.0 12 Monk
Fleshmaker +20 1.2 5 Paladin
Human 1 +20 1.4
2 +20 1.6
3 +20 1.8
Monks Shintao +10 1.9
3 +10 2.0
6 +10 2.1
12 +10 2.2
Paladin t3 +20 2.4
Paladin 4 +20 2.6
Paladin 5 +20 2.8
Crown of Summer (Druid) +30 3.1
Item 10% +20 3.3
Item 20% +40 3.7
Item 30% +60 4.3
Paladin PL x3 +30 4.6
Jidz-Tet'ka +50 5.1
Guild +20 5.3
Exalted Angel +6 5.36
Exalted Angel +6 5.42
Exalted Angel +8 5.5
Unyielding Sentinel +20 5.7



As you can see, this would be a buff to most builds, and a nerf to extreme Healing Amplication stacking because it’s additive. Any build that currently had less than 250% healing amplification would be buffed, while builds with more than 250% healing amplification would see a reduction in effectiveness.

Stacking
Our current plan is that all existing sources of healing amplification will stack as they do today, but they will be given various bonus types so players will be able to understand how they will stack with potential future items and enhancements.


When looking at these changes, players should know the following:

~ This system would allow us to start putting stacking Healing Amp on high level items again.
~ Barbarians would be getting sources of Healing Amplification in their trees.

Sev~

JOTMON
10-14-2014, 02:57 PM
Monks and monk splashes still need healing amp to be survivable.
Especially since they cannot benefit from heavy armor or decent PRR without losing monk stance benefits.
Paladins benefit from healing amp self healing ability and the ability to wear heavy armor.

Keep this in mind so you don't mistakenly screw over monks & robe based monk splashes.

Wold be interested to see the comparison of How the impact is on lesser vampiric wraps and healing curse FOL from monk impacted


See finger necklace (Fleshmaker) on your list... this has always worked differently then other healing amp items. is this being standardized as well?
Jidz-Tet'ka - I would not double these. its a lower level item that should be replaced at endgame not sought after.
Item 10,20,30.. should stay 10,20,30... Add new rare items/augments that go higher.
Guild should not change. leave at 10. No reason for guild bonus to give increased benefit.


Jidz-Tet'ka and Fleshmaker should be removed from your comparison calculation , they are not ideal endgame items , they are only used for maxing out hamp... although your comparison is essentially theretical anyway for some sort of max amp build.


Can you look at consolidating the Repair amp, heal amp, negative amp into just heal amp.too many different sources makes it difficult to maintain versatility.
WF would have to mix and match repair amp and heal amp for incoming heals. PM's are already screwed for amp items.
Make them all the same and make any beneficial energy be amped by the same items/augments/destinies/etc.....

Uska
10-14-2014, 02:58 PM
Still not happy but not sounding as bad as I feared

Bridge_Dweller
10-14-2014, 02:58 PM
Somebody translate this into and Excel formula for me? Thanks.

Janitorman
10-14-2014, 02:58 PM
Major nerf to heal amp builds that already sacrificed, imo, too much as is just to get satisfying returns from CSW pots, fists of light, and vamp weapons. Having played several heal amp builds, to go all out as in the example above, you cut your effectiveness to the point that it is a fun flavor build for EH but huge slog in EE that is usually unsuccessful do to mob scaling. I can see that if higher tiers of Vampiric were ever to be introduced, heal amp might need to be reigned in, but 1-3 even x8 is still only 8-24.

As things are looking now, this is a huge boost to most builds, but sadly the death of heal amp builds. Glad I TRd my main into a heal amp build after seeing the initial panic so as to squeeze what little fun is left before the end.

Was secretly optimistic for new heal amp stuff to be introduced, now it won't even matter.

TPICKRELL
10-14-2014, 03:01 PM
How will War Forged Healer's Friend by treated?

Impaqt
10-14-2014, 03:01 PM
Love it.

that is all.

Satyriasys
10-14-2014, 03:03 PM
Just remove healing amp and Monks. These things are ruining the game.

Bridge_Dweller
10-14-2014, 03:04 PM
Somebody who understands this . . .

Would a 3 pally-PL human with 30%, 20% items and 30% racial see a buff or a nerf?

That's 290% versus 235% on live?

Right?

UurlockYgmeov
10-14-2014, 03:04 PM
+10 communication. Keep it coming!
+1 Like the thought and appreciate the idea
+1 Yes buff the Barbarian!

Questions:

Will the Healing Amp and Repair Amp now show on the character sheet like SP/MP/RP? (YES it should be there)
So thinking of buffing Paladin Past Life feat from 5% per past life to ? 10?
So thinking of buffing the Bladeforged Past Life feat as well?
How about adding Healing Amp as an Epic Past Life feat? (sorry made a mistake and fixed)
Will new sources be available as an augment? Color?
Will new sources be named items? (of course)
Will new sources be in the random loot gen?
How will this affect Greensteel and existing (sounds like doubling existing into integers)?

http://blogs.longwood.edu/socl526summer/files/2011/06/thinker-smiley.jpg

blerkington
10-14-2014, 03:04 PM
Hi,

This looks better than what I was expecting. Well done.

One problem with healing amp gear is that it's concentrated in too few slots. Perhaps some more choice could be added for heal amp gear too.

Thanks.

Gloomfall
10-14-2014, 03:05 PM
Will existing items with specific exceptions be classified as an enhancement bonus?

Will we be able to get whatever bonus it is through augments at any point?

Will we be able to get an equivalent "Insight" bonus to Healing Amplification Rating through either other special items or augments?


Loving it so far, looking forward to it!
Thanks!

streep101
10-14-2014, 03:05 PM
Don't see finger necklace on your list... this has always worked differently then other healing amp items.


It's the first item on the list: "Fleshmaker".

unbongwah
10-14-2014, 03:10 PM
Looks like the new heal amp system will provide more bang-for-your-heal-amp-point until you cross the 4x heal amp threshold, at which point it becomes a nerf for extreme heal-ampers. Which is par for course for these sorts of rules changes: a buff for the vast majority of builds, a nerf for the tiny minority of extremely minmaxed ones.

Now, can we get more sources of heal amp in the PrEs so it's not just the province of humans, HEs, Harpers, monk, pallies, and soon-to-be barbs?

TPICKRELL
10-14-2014, 03:10 PM
Somebody translate this into and Excel formula for me? Thanks.

The formula is pretty simple. But heres the effects on my main:

Current:
Monk Cores: (1.05*1.05*1.05*1.05*1.05*1.05)= 1.34
Pally Past Lives 1.15
Ship buff 1.1
PDK Gloves: 1.3
DT (1.1* 1.2)=1.32
Divine Crusader=1.1
1.34*1.15*1.1*1.3*1.32*1.1= 3.19= 319%

New System:

Monk Cores 60
Pally Past Lives 30
Ship Buffs 10
PDK Gloves 60
DT (20+40)= 60
Divine Crusader=20
---------------------
60+30+10+60+60+20=240
(100+240)/100=3.4=340%

So my medium heavy AMP build will go up from 319 to 340.

Gloomfall
10-14-2014, 03:10 PM
570% is not bad at all. 897% was pretty crazy, even if people "sacrifice" for it. I for one love this change as it will open it up to a lot more people at the lower/mid levels while still allowing decent build choices.

Zavier
10-14-2014, 03:12 PM
Just remove healing amp and Monks. These things are ruining the game.

Just remove the "everyone gets a trophy for showing up" mentality. This thing is ruining the game.

Archangel666
10-14-2014, 03:14 PM
I'm extremely tired after a very long day at work, so it's possible that in my muddled state I'm getting this wrong, but could someone who can think more coherently than I can at the moment translate what this means to my pure Monk main please?

20% Human, 10% and 20% DT vestments, 30% PDK Gloves, 25% Jidz, 3x Pally PL's, 10% Ship Buff All Tiers of Shintao (can't remember what that equals).

My gut reaction is that Turbine have just bent my main over and shafted it without the courtesy of a reach around, but as I said I'm exhausted and it's possible my mind is translating it poorly.

My main concern is that I use Fists of Light and Vampirism Wraps as primary healing sources and that if it's as bad as I fear they'll now be all but useless. Hoping I'm wrong.

TPICKRELL
10-14-2014, 03:20 PM
I'm extremely tired after a very long day at work, so it's possible that in my muddled state I'm getting this wrong, but could someone who can think more coherently than I can at the moment translate what this means to my pure Monk main please?

20% Human, 10% and 20% DT vestments, 30% PDK Gloves, 25% Jidz, 3x Pally PL's, 10% Ship Buff All Tiers of Shintao (can't remember what that equals).

My gut reaction is that Turbine have just bent my main over and shafted it without the courtesy of a reach around, but as I said I'm exhausted and it's possible my mind is translating it poorly.

My main concern is that I use Fists of Light and Vampirism Wraps as primary healing sources and that if it's as bad as I fear they'll now be all but useless. Hoping I'm wrong.

If I copied everything into my excel spreadsheet correctly----

That will be going from 1.2*1.1*1.2*1.25*1.15*1.1*1.34=4.3
To (100+40+20+40+30+50+30+20+60)/100=3.9

EllisDee37
10-14-2014, 03:24 PM
As a guy who stacks healing amp gear and enhancements on all* my alts, this new system sounds perfectly acceptable. Good design.

*Except the pale master.

FestusHood
10-14-2014, 03:24 PM
How will items stack? In your currently on live example you mention two separate items, one with 20%, and one with 30%. These would become 40 and 60 in the new system, and still stack?

Currently only items with different values stack. What would happen if i have two different items each with (currently) 30% heal amp on them? Would they be able to stack, or would they become redundant as they are on live now?

EllisDee37
10-14-2014, 03:28 PM
Just to throw this out there:

A healing amp pass would be a great time to introduce healing amp augments, don't you think? Ideally yellow.

Archangel666
10-14-2014, 03:28 PM
If I copied everything into my excel spreadsheet correctly----

That will be going from 1.2*1.1*1.2*1.25*1.15*1.1*1.34=4.3
To (100+40+20+40+30+50+30+20+60)/100=3.9

Thank you.

Quite a bit of a nerf then. I know people will point out that it's only 40% ish, but that 40% means the difference between hitting 400% or not and 400% means numbers increasing by 1 per hit or 2 on crits (I think it's crits, but not sure I just know that the numbers alternated between say 6 and 12 for example, muddled brain so if I've got numbers wrong, meh).

Systern
10-14-2014, 03:29 PM
Our first build has two Paladin past lives (currently 10%), healing amplification from Vigor of Life (currently 10%), a 30% healing amplification source, and a 20% healing amplification source.

On live this would be 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.3 * 1.2 for a total multiplier of ~1.887.

I was under the impression that the pally past lives multiplied independently because of the way that past life stacking occurred: 1.05 * 1.05 * 1.1 * 1.3 * 1.2 = 1.89189. (But maybe that got changed with the Healer's Friend changes a year+ ago... I can't recall)



The times when I was most concerned about healing amp were when leveling a lowbie monk, and mainly using fists of light to keep the hp up. Getting over the threshold of gaining +1 hp per hit to +2 and +3 will be more difficult.


I'd also really like to see a yellow augment be made available since the result of this is that "average" characters will need to itemize for it more than they previously had.

Severlin
10-14-2014, 03:33 PM
Somebody who understands this . . .

Would a 3 pally-PL human with 30%, 20% items and 30% racial see a buff or a nerf?

That's 290% versus 235% on live?

Right?

Current system is 1.15 * 1.3 * 1.2 * 1.3 = 2.33

New system is 30 + 60 + 40 + 60 = 190 = (100 + 190)/100 = 2.9

Sev~

Severlin
10-14-2014, 03:35 PM
Will the Healing Amp and Repair Amp now show on the character sheet like SP/MP/RP? (YES it should be there)


A character sheet update is not slated for this update. (Though we agree it should be there.)



Will new sources be available as an augment? Color?
Will new sources be named items? (of course)
Will new sources be in the random loot gen?
How will this affect Greensteel and existing (sounds like doubling existing into integers)?


Existing items won't be retrofitted, but new items and systems can now include healing amplification.

Sev~

Severlin
10-14-2014, 03:37 PM
Will existing items with specific exceptions be classified as an enhancement bonus?


No, because if we did that they wouldn't stack. We want current items to have the same stacking in the new system as they do on live.



Will we be able to get whatever bonus it is through augments at any point?


Having a healing amplification augment is the type of item we envisioned when we were looking at changes.



Will we be able to get an equivalent "Insight" bonus to Healing Amplification Rating through either other special items or augments?


What ever we call the bonus type they should still allow things to stack as they do on live.

Sev~

Gloomfall
10-14-2014, 03:40 PM
Answers.
Sev~

Thanks Sev!

Looking forward to the awesome Barbarian changes coming through the pipeline after this!

I think that it will open up a ton of new possibilities for fleshy characters.

Wizza
10-14-2014, 03:41 PM
A character sheet update is not slated for this update. (Though we agree it should be there.)

Of course it's not.




Existing items won't be retrofitted, but new items and systems can now include healing amplification.

Sev~

Wait wait, am I reading this correctly? This change will only work on NEW items but old items such as GS Heal Amp Weapon, Finger of Necklace, PDK gloves, Iron Mitts will NOT have the new Healing Amp rating? Will we have to farm them AGAIN?

Vellrad
10-14-2014, 03:41 PM
I don't really care, as long as I won't have to reaquire items to have better version (imagine someone farming 20 mods to see his/her necklace be 30% where newly aquired will be 60), but I think paladin past life should be exceptiona and stack as it does now (no I don't have any pal PLs).

Bargol
10-14-2014, 03:41 PM
Existing items won't be retrofitted, but new items and systems can now include healing amplification.

Sev~

Clarify please....

So old items remain multiplicative? or they remain 10, 20, or 30?

Also please tell us we will see yellow augments with fleshmakers and heal amp.

Zzevel
10-14-2014, 03:42 PM
Existing items won't be retrofitted, but new items and systems can now include healing amplification.

Sev~

translation everything you now own will be junk, go out and grind for the new stuff and when we introduce the 500th different crafting/upgrade system you might see healing amp included...


This is poo.. always half way with your stupid changes. If you want to make a change do it right or don't waste our time. There is so much in the game that is junk because you didnt spend the time to get it right.. ug this is frustrating.

Severlin
10-14-2014, 03:42 PM
If I copied everything into my excel spreadsheet correctly----

That will be going from 1.2*1.1*1.2*1.25*1.15*1.1*1.34=4.3
To (100+40+20+40+30+50+30+20+60)/100=3.9

Hmm my numbers are different:



20% Human, 10% and 20% DT vestments, 30% PDK Gloves, 25% Jidz, 3x Pally PL's, 10% Ship Buff All Tiers of Shintao (can't remember what that equals).


On live this build has 1.2 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.3 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.3 (all 6 core of Shintao) = 4.232943
Under the new system you will have 40 + 20 + 40 + 60 + 50 + 30 + 20 + 60 = 320 = (100 + 320)/100 = 4.2

A 100 hit point heal will do 420 instead of 423 on live.

Sev~

Archangel666
10-14-2014, 03:43 PM
*deleted because Sev just posted and my question may have been pointless.*

UurlockYgmeov
10-14-2014, 03:43 PM
A character sheet update is not slated for this update. (Though we agree it should be there.)
Good. And much more like spell critical chance etc.


Existing items won't be retrofitted, but new items and systems can now include healing amplification.

Sev~

So items like Purple Dragon Gauntlets that have 30% won't be converted to +60? Same goes for Greensteel healing amp items?


The current percentage values would be converted into a rating and then, to keep Healing Amplification competitive, the rating would be doubled. 10% Healing Amplification would become a rating of 20. 20% Healing Amplification would become a rating of 40.

just probably a miscommunication on my part.

Impaqt
10-14-2014, 03:45 PM
Existing items won't be retrofitted, but new items and systems can now include healing amplification.

Sev~

This really needs clarification...

I'm assuming it means existing items wont get healing amp added to them.. but all existing items that already have HA will be adjusted to the new system.

Also: Please get the Character sheet revision in sooner than later... Still missing Spell Crit chance as well.

Vargouille
10-14-2014, 03:47 PM
We expect many sources of existing Healing Amp to gain explicit bonus types, mostly to make it more obvious and work like other effects in DDO, (but not with a goal of making them all the same bonus type). By and large we're expecting most things that currently stack to continue to stack, but with new bonus types that make this clear. This also means that current 30% items won't suddenly start stacking. They're likely to become +60 Healing Amp of a specific bonus type. Some sources of Healing Amp, such as Jidz-Tet'ka, already have explicit types.


Somebody translate this into and Excel formula for me? Thanks.

Old Healing Amp: Generally meant mutiply all the numbers together. 10% healing amp meant multiply by 1.10, so if you had three stacking sources of 10, 20, and 30% you're overall healing was 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.3 => 1.716 => 71.6% more healing.

New Healing Amp is just add up all the numbers as bonus healing. If you had 20 + 40 + 60, that's +120% more healing. The other way to look at the formula is (100 + HealingAmp) / 100 => (100 + 120) / 100 => 220 / 100 => 2.2 is the multiplier (which of course still means +120% healing).

Fleshmaker (AKA: Finger Necklace) has always been trying to do addition, not multiplication, which is why it was a bit ... squirrelly when mixed up in other things that did multiplication.


This change will only work on NEW items but old items such as GS Heal Amp Weapon, Finger of Necklace, PDK gloves, Iron Mitts will NOT have the new Healing Amp rating? Will we have to farm them AGAIN?
No. Old items will change. We won't be automatically changing old stuff into augments or whatnot; this isn't a pass for making many new items or new healing amplification sources (other than Barbarian).

Severlin
10-14-2014, 03:49 PM
translation everything you now own will be junk, go out and grind for the new stuff and when we introduce the 500th different crafting/upgrade system you might see healing amp included...


This is poo.. always half way with your stupid changes. If you want to make a change do it right or don't waste our time. There is so much in the game that is junk because you didnt spend the time to get it right.. ug this is frustrating.

I'm sorry, I totally wrote something easily misunderstood. My bad. All existing items with healing amplification will be converted to a rating (and doubled) so they fit into the design.

I meant that we won't be adding healing amplification to existing items that don't already have it. Existing random loot tables or crafting systems won't as part of this update have a new healing amplification option added.

If healing amplification currently exists, however, it will be updated to rating and doubled as described in the OP.

Sev~

mna
10-14-2014, 03:51 PM
... oh, never mind then.

Severlin
10-14-2014, 03:51 PM
So items like Purple Dragon Gauntlets that have 30% won't be converted to +60? Same goes for Greensteel healing amp items?


See my previous reply (and apology) - Purple Dragon Gauntlets would be converted to +60.

Sev~

Severlin
10-14-2014, 03:52 PM
Hm. Seems like a reasonable plan, at least mostly. Just, details...


So how was that again with existing items? (Such as, say, an existing greensteel heal amp offhander, or old random-loot Convalescent bracers?) Surely items are going to autoconvert over rather than become obsolete, I hope? (Not that I have any worth mentioning yet, myself, but still.)

I don't think anyone expected to get heal amp on items that didn't have it already, but since a number of items do have it... some clarification would be appreciated?

The healing amplification effects on them will be updated to rating and doubled as described in the OP.

Sev~

Archangel666
10-14-2014, 03:54 PM
Hmm my numbers are different:



On live this build has 1.2 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.3 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.3 (all 6 core of Shintao) = 4.232943
Under the new system you will have 40 + 20 + 40 + 60 + 50 + 30 + 20 + 60 = 320 = (100 + 320)/100 = 4.2

A 100 hit point heal will do 420 instead of 423 on live.

Sev~

Thank you for the clarification.

I'll stop sharpening the pitchfork (for now).

I'll be honest. I was expecting the worst.

Not your fault, it's just a Turbine past record thing with me and completely subjective.

*Edit* You know what? If this is the way you intend to implement it then I'm actually going to say Thank You.

The last week or so I've been working a lot and haven't had much play time, and when I have, I've had a kinda disappointed "What's the point" feeling. I've been working my way through my final Pally Life on my Monk which I started doing because of HAmp, and then this came up and I was starting to feel like I'd put in the effort to get those three Past Lives and it was going to be made pointless.

FestusHood
10-14-2014, 03:54 PM
This really needs clarification...

I'm assuming it means existing items wont get healing amp added to them.. but all existing items that already have HA will be adjusted to the new system.

Also: Please get the Character sheet revision in sooner than later... Still missing Spell Crit chance as well.

That's how they did it with dodge and exceptional skills when they changed them. All the old items were adjusted.
I assume it's not that hard to do, not to mention they will probably have to meddle with their effects anyway to change them from a % to a power rating.

P.S. Never mind, answered while typing.

Qhualor
10-14-2014, 03:57 PM
1. any chance we will see an improvement to repairs as well? im not talking BF Paladins or toaster casters. im talking about WF melees and to an extent BF melees. take my WF pure Fighter for example. i mentioned this in the other thread too, but unless there is improvements for WF who rely on repair pots to survive, i have no choice but to TR into BF just to get reconstruct. that means taking feats and equipping an sp item i otherwise would not be doing. right now a serious repair pot heals my WF at level 17 for ~20 hp. i have to think not only about my own self healing, but also the positive healing i would get from other party members. that means choosing between Healers Friend or Mechanist. that also means having to rely on SF pots that will do ~300 per pot. in epics i would have to twist Sacred Ground or Cocoon or something while also having sp and taking feats to help boost it. repairs for WF melees is long overdue and i think its pretty bad that if i want decent repair healing that i cant play a WF and have to TR into a class that can give my character that.

2. any insight on barbarian heal amp in the trees? is this the "answer" we have been asking about for better self sufficiency? please note that if that is the case than the heal amp would have to be equivalent to a SF pot to be worth it in epics.

3. please add heal amp in higher level items on other items besides bracers and gloves for more options while gearing a character.

FestusHood
10-14-2014, 03:59 PM
So only items with different values will continue to stack? Sorry i'm still not completely clear about this.

Wondering if it's time to have a yard sale with some of my older convalescent bracers or not, since i have them in 10,20,and 30.

EllisDee37
10-14-2014, 04:00 PM
My assumption is that items won't stack with each other. Either they stack, or they're doubled. Not both. Much like the dodge pass. It should still work out about right.


Worst case scenario, or at least a very unfavorable one for non-stacking, let's say a character with...
- nine 10% sources of non-item amp (3 human, 3 paladin, 1 divine crusader, 1 ship buff, 2 pally past lives)
- all three basic items (30%, 20% and 10%)

On live, that character has 1.1^9 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.3 ~ 4.046 amp

Under the new system, assuming non-stacking items, meaning the 30% item gives 60 and the 10% and 20% items literally do nothing, that works out to:

(100 + 20*9 + 60)/100 = 3.4 amp (4.0 if items stacked)

That's a bit of a nerf if the items no longer stack, so I can see why the initial idea has them stacking. Seems weird, though, since it would be the only item effect in the entire game that stacked with itself, right?



Now to consider an "average" amp build, let's say:
- four 10% sources of non-item amp (2 enhancements, 1 divine crusader, 1 ship buff)
- the "big two" items (30% and 20%)

On live, that character has 1.1^4 * 1.2 * 1.3 ~ 2.284 amp

Under the new system, assuming non-stacking items, meaning the 30% item gives 60 and 20% item literally does nothing, that works out to:

(100 + 20*4 + 60)/100 = 2.4 amp (2.8 if items stacked)


Despite being a devout healing amp guy, I'm thinking that items shouldn't stack. But of course you could introduce different types of amp that does stack. So say +60 competence on PDK gloves, iron mitts and eClaw, and +40 insightful on levik's bracers.

btolson
10-14-2014, 04:00 PM
In general I think this is fine, but you should do something to help the extreme hamp builds.

For instance, maxing out the monk healing amp enhancements could grant you a passive "Master of Light" buff.
Master of Light: for every 10 points of healing amp you possess, you have a 1% chance to gain critical healing (double effect) from fists of light.

Thus, someone with 500 healing amp would have a 50% chance to gain 2d2 healing from fists of light instead of 1d2.

UurlockYgmeov
10-14-2014, 04:00 PM
See my previous reply (and apology) - Purple Dragon Gauntlets would be converted to +60.

Sev~
+1 for fast response!
+10 for saying mea maxima culpa!
+1 for the clarification

Your fingers faster than mine!

Keep it up!

http://a.rgbimg.com/cache1nGhNh/users/h/hi/hisks/600/mhY3004.jpg

UurlockYgmeov
10-14-2014, 04:03 PM
1. any chance we will see an improvement to repairs as well? im not talking BF Paladins or toaster casters. im talking about WF melees and to an extent BF melees. take my WF pure Fighter for example. i mentioned this in the other thread too, but unless there is improvements for WF who rely on repair pots to survive, i have no choice but to TR into BF just to get reconstruct. that means taking feats and equipping an sp item i otherwise would not be doing. right now a serious repair pot heals my WF at level 17 for ~20 hp. i have to think not only about my own self healing, but also the positive healing i would get from other party members. that means choosing between Healers Friend or Mechanist. that also means having to rely on SF pots that will do ~300 per pot. in epics i would have to twist Sacred Ground or Cocoon or something while also having sp and taking feats to help boost it. repairs for WF melees is long overdue and i think its pretty bad that if i want decent repair healing that i cant play a WF and have to TR into a class that can give my character that.

2. any insight on barbarian heal amp in the trees? is this the "answer" we have been asking about for better self sufficiency? please note that if that is the case than the heal amp would have to be equivalent to a SF pot to be worth it in epics.

3. please add heal amp in higher level items on other items besides bracers and gloves for more options while gearing a character.

1. Agree. Think that when you hear healing amp think repair amp as well.

2. Sure that will be many more dev diaries. :D

3. Am confident it will show up in augments in U24.

FestusHood
10-14-2014, 04:11 PM
In general I think this is fine, but you should do something to help the extreme hamp builds.

For instance, maxing out the monk healing amp enhancements could grant you a passive "Master of Light" buff.
Master of Light: for every 10 points of healing amp you possess, you have a 1% chance to gain critical healing (double effect) from fists of light.

Thus, someone with 500 healing amp would have a 50% chance to gain 2d2 healing from fists of light instead of 1d2.

Shintao cores could scale with 200% hamp power. Capstone maybe.

Wizza
10-14-2014, 04:12 PM
Okay, now that we cleared the issue with the old items:

Are you really sure you wanna buff pretty much every build out there with these changes? The changes to PRR, MRR, Vanguard tree, Melee Power etc with the latest update gave us already way too much power than we probably needed. Toons are in almost god mode, even on EE. This change will make questing and raiding, for most of us, even easier.

I'm not really sure this buff is needed at all. And still, I don't see a reason for this change. If itemization was your problem, adding more Heal amp choices would have been a better solution. But you guys at Turbine don't like easy solutions so not expecting it.

rayworks
10-14-2014, 04:12 PM
Greetings,

Today we want to discuss healing amplification.

Instead of constantly modifying things that no one I know has asked to be fixed, try fixing the bugs and exploits.

Archangel666
10-14-2014, 04:14 PM
In general I think this is fine, but you should do something to help the extreme hamp builds.

For instance, maxing out the monk healing amp enhancements could grant you a passive "Master of Light" buff.
Master of Light: for every 10 points of healing amp you possess, you have a 1% chance to gain critical healing (double effect) from fists of light.

Thus, someone with 500 healing amp would have a 50% chance to gain 2d2 healing from fists of light instead of 1d2.

While outside of the scope of this thread, I do have to say I would love this!

Lokeal_The_Flame
10-14-2014, 04:15 PM
How about for all named non starter and non challenge items with healing/repair/negative energy amplification, you make them randomly generated between the three amplification types?

This will open up more character build options based on equipment selection.

Certon
10-14-2014, 04:19 PM
Fussing with minutiae instead of dealing with REAL problems.

Check.

FestusHood
10-14-2014, 04:19 PM
Okay, now that we cleared the issue with the old items:

Are you really sure you wanna buff pretty much every build out there with these changes? The changes to PRR, MRR, Vanguard tree, Melee Power etc with the latest update gave us already way too much power than we probably needed. Toons are in almost god mode, even on EE. This change will make questing and raiding, for most of us, even easier.

I'm not really sure this buff is needed at all. And still, I don't see a reason for this change. If itemization was your problem, adding more Heal amp choices would have been a better solution. But you guys at Turbine don't like easy solutions so not expecting it.

I'm starting to think i agree with this. Previously when they doubled the values on things like dodge and skills, they stopped stacking. Most builds are going to be hugely buffed by doubling and still allowing stacking. Just talking about items here. Of course enhancements and past lives should continue to stack.

Impaqt
10-14-2014, 04:23 PM
I'm not really sure this buff is needed at all. And still, I don't see a reason for this change. If itemization was your problem, adding more Heal amp choices would have been a better solution. But you guys at Turbine don't like easy solutions so not expecting it.

more choices to the current system = even more ways to multiply the effects.

Lokeal_The_Flame
10-14-2014, 04:27 PM
I'm starting to think i agree with this. Previously when they doubled the values on things like dodge and skills, they stopped stacking. Most builds are going to be hugely buffed by doubling and still allowing stacking. Just talking about items here. Of course enhancements and past lives should continue to stack.

All will be fine in the long run, if this does make things too powerful, they can always fix it and who knows, maybe them doing it that way will bring better results than leaving it alone or handling this via another process.

The fact of the matter is that game development is a matter of trial and error, it don't simply end just because... the trial and error continues on seeking perfection.

All I can say is to believe in the trial and error process in this case as DDO does receive a lot of money to keep it all going!

FestusHood
10-14-2014, 04:33 PM
All will be fine in the long run, if this does make things too powerful, they can always fix it and who knows, maybe them doing it that way will bring better results than leaving it alone or handling this via another process.

The fact of the matter is that game development is a matter of trial and error, it don't simply end just because... the trial and error continues on seeking perfection.

All I can say is to believe in the trial and error process in this case as DDO does receive a lot of money to keep it all going!

The amounts from gear will be huge, though, and overshadow the effects from past lives and enhancements, even if they are doubled.

Toro12
10-14-2014, 04:39 PM
So all the work I did grinding dodge items to have a good AC went out the window. So now my AC sucks.
No worries I think , I have lots of healing amp to fall back on.
Enh pass comes and the monk gets the shaft in having to wait 20 levels to get the amp I used to have by level 11. (And a boat load of earth stance related junk I have Zero interest in)
No worries I think by the time I really need the amp I'll have it'

So running around in DT armor , jid'z (in sub optimal fire stance) and all that jazz and now I'm not even going to be able to get 4 points on a fist of light anymore? Giving up a boat load of damage to run lesser vamp wraps with tons of heal amp gear. Level 5 gear at level 28 guys.

Any puts that splashes 1 monk can get grandmaster stances by burning a couple of feats stay centered swinging a eSoS with something stupid like an x6 multiplier.
All I got was a lousy d8 base (ohh yeah and lost my freaking plus die step from past life )

Seriously guys W.T.F?

I understand you have been getting flack for the OP monk splashes but us pure monks are taking it pretty bad.

I understand this isn't slanted to hit monks but you all have been doing a bang up job of killing us with your system changes.

Violith
10-14-2014, 04:44 PM
Vampirism (and lesser), monks fist of light, regeneration items, and other small healing abilities that more or less required above the 400% mark to actually be viable should be looked into and scaled accordingly.

Archangel666
10-14-2014, 04:45 PM
So all the work I did grinding dodge items to have a good AC went out the window. So now my AC sucks.
No worries I think , I have lots of healing amp to fall back on.
Enh pass comes and the monk gets the shaft in having to wait 20 levels to get the amp I used to have by level 11. (And a boat load of earth stance related junk I have Zero interest in)
No worries I think by the time I really need the amp I'll have it'

So running around in DT armor , jid'z (in sub optimal fire stance) and all that jazz and now I'm not even going to be able to get 4 points on a fist of light anymore? Giving up a boat load of damage to run lesser vamp wraps with tons of heal amp gear. Level 5 gear at level 28 guys.

Any puts that splashes 1 monk can get grandmaster stances by burning a couple of feats stay centered swinging a eSoS with something stupid like an x6 multiplier.
All I got was a lousy d8 base (ohh yeah and lost my freaking plus die step from past life )

Seriously guys W.T.F?

I understand you have been getting flack for the OP monk splashes but us pure monks are taking it pretty bad.

I understand this isn't slanted to hit monks but you all have been doing a bang up job of killing us with your system changes.

Have to admit, I feel similar.

Toro12
10-14-2014, 04:54 PM
I know the wrong thread to vent about my monk getting Schutped in but just had to add the poison and disease "immunity" change

Thrudh
10-14-2014, 04:56 PM
Have to admit, I feel similar.

Why? Sev just showed you there was basically zero change to your healing amp.

Thrudh
10-14-2014, 04:58 PM
I think these changes look great... Can't wait to see new items and healing augments and the barb changes.

Archangel666
10-14-2014, 05:00 PM
Why? Sev just showed you there was basically zero change to your healing amp.

I meant about the rest really. Pure Monks really have been getting a hammering.

I did actually thank Sev and to be honest, if the changes are implemented as they're outlined I won't have any issues with the HAmp side of things, but the rest still stands IMO.

Anyway, I really need sleep now.

Ziindarax
10-14-2014, 05:07 PM
Okay, since you guys are trying to revamp the system to make healing amp better, how about this?

Level 20 - 24 gets 30%, or +60 AMP, while 25-28 gets 40% or 80, and then have level 30 offer +100 stacking healing amp?

Let's face it, since you're changing the system, it seems kinda silly that a chacter higher than level 20 is still stuck with a level-20-grade healing amp from loot effects.

Also, for healing enhancements, how about setting it so that it's a multi-selector (While I am at it, Artificer trees could stand to use a MAJOR revamp, especially Arcanotechnician) so that Warforged can pick repair amp instead of being pigeonholed to Healing Amp (that goes double for the Bladeforged pure paladins who cannot even increase the benefit of THEIR OWN REPAIR spells by virtue of Knight of the Chalice being stuck with only healing amp), and the odd undead can play Blasphemer builds (Negative Energy amp instead of just healing amp, but to unlock that, you'd need to have levels into wizard, and have obtained the Zombie form at a minimum).

Items could have various properties that include buffs to undead healing. The Undead forms are implied to have great benefits in melee, yet their incoming self-healing is weak-sauce. Undead Knight builds would be really cool if not for the fact that MRR messes with their negative healing (something that should be removed by the undead forms, or at the very least, the t5 Improved Shrouding, and there's only one item in the game that boosts incoming negative healing. >.> Harm spell should function exactly as the Heal spell for Undead, and the same should be true of Reconstruct for Warforged.

Additionally, Vampirism and hit point regen on items need to be looked at, improved, and offered in the form of grades like most of the other effects.

Will Past life bonuses to healing amp stack with everything else?

Impaqt
10-14-2014, 05:15 PM
So all the work I did grinding dodge items to have a good AC went out the window. So now my AC sucks.
No worries I think , I have lots of healing amp to fall back on.
Enh pass comes and the monk gets the shaft in having to wait 20 levels to get the amp I used to have by level 11. (And a boat load of earth stance related junk I have Zero interest in)
No worries I think by the time I really need the amp I'll have it'

So running around in DT armor , jid'z (in sub optimal fire stance) and all that jazz and now I'm not even going to be able to get 4 points on a fist of light anymore? Giving up a boat load of damage to run lesser vamp wraps with tons of heal amp gear. Level 5 gear at level 28 guys.

Any puts that splashes 1 monk can get grandmaster stances by burning a couple of feats stay centered swinging a eSoS with something stupid like an x6 multiplier.
All I got was a lousy d8 base (ohh yeah and lost my freaking plus die step from past life )

Seriously guys W.T.F?

I understand you have been getting flack for the OP monk splashes but us pure monks are taking it pretty bad.

I understand this isn't slanted to hit monks but you all have been doing a bang up job of killing us with your system changes.

You've got a point here, but astronomical healing amp never should of been the solution to poorly scaling fists of light healing.

Ideal Solution, IMO.

Fists of Light:
On a successful melee hit, an enemy receives a healing shield for approximately 10 seconds. Any melee hit on the affected creature by you or or allies heals them with 1D2 per strike at level 3, 1d3 at Monk level 9, and 1d4 at Monk level 15.

this would nearly double the base healing provided by Fists of light and help keep High amp Monk builds in line with current self healing.

Violith
10-14-2014, 05:19 PM
Okay, since you guys are trying to revamp the system to make healing amp better, how about this?

Level 20 - 24 gets 30%, or +60 AMP, while 25-28 gets 40% or 80, and then have level 30 offer +100 stacking healing amp?

Let's face it, since you're changing the system, it seems kinda silly that a chacter higher than level 20 is still stuck with a level-20-grade healing amp from loot effects.

Also, for healing enhancements, how about setting it so that it's a multi-selector (While I am at it, Artificer trees could stand to use a MAJOR revamp, especially Arcanotechnician) so that Warforged can pick repair amp instead of being pigeonholed to Healing Amp (that goes double for the Bladeforged pure paladins who cannot even increase the benefit of THEIR OWN REPAIR spells by virtue of Knight of the Chalice being stuck with only healing amp), and the odd undead can play Blasphemer builds (Negative Energy amp instead of just healing amp, but to unlock that, you'd need to have levels into wizard, and have obtained the Zombie form at a minimum).

Items could have various properties that include buffs to undead healing. The Undead forms are implied to have great benefits in melee, yet their incoming self-healing is weak-sauce. Undead Knight builds would be really cool if not for the fact that MRR messes with their negative healing (something that should be removed by the undead forms, or at the very least, the t5 Improved Shrouding, and there's only one item in the game that boosts incoming negative healing. >.> Harm spell should function exactly as the Heal spell for Undead, and the same should be true of Reconstruct for Warforged.

Additionally, Vampirism and hit point regen on items need to be looked at, improved, and offered in the form of grades like most of the other effects.


Will Past life bonuses to healing amp stack with everything else?



the way I see it, they probably wont be putting in excessively high healing amp in, so no 100's. merely ones of different type. currently we got 30/20/10 items. They said they' want them to stack as they do now, thus each would be typed differently and doubled. so 30 would be 60(type X), 20 would be 40 ( type Y), 10 would be 20 (type Z). thus then they're able to include higher teirs of each type, like a 60Y, etc, in addition to the previous 60(X) and have them both stack still.. personally, I dont see them going above 60, since the current endgame is 30 (and planned for the foresabel future) and there's a 30% necklace in that level 30+ raid.

also, enhancements/past lives/destinies will all still stack. they show you that in the first post.

HatsuharuZ
10-14-2014, 05:22 PM
This new system seems simple enough, and hopefully workable.

You mentioned barbarians, though... will there be a barbarian thread up soon, to show proposed changes?

Violith
10-14-2014, 05:31 PM
You've got a point here, but astronomical healing amp never should of been the solution to poorly scaling fists of light healing.

Ideal Solution, IMO.

Fists of Light:
On a successful melee hit, an enemy receives a healing shield for approximately 10 seconds. Any melee hit on the affected creature by you or or allies heals them with 1D2 per strike at level 3, 1d3 at Monk level 9, and 1d4 at Monk level 15.

this would nearly double the base healing provided by Fists of light and help keep High amp Monk builds in line with current self healing.

true but even those would be a nerf compared to HAMP% you could get it to at those levels. how about change the fist of light/dark into an ability effected by the monks base W based on level (only the base form the unarmed(monk levels) not the full W they are able to get. since even I think that a 9w[1d2]x400% healp amp would be rather excessive XD) thus.

W[light/dark] - level
1[1d2/2d10] - Monk level 1
1.5[1d2/2d10] - Monk level 4
2[1d2/2d10] - Monk level 8
2.5[1d2/2d10] - Monk level 12
3[1d2/2d10] - Monk level 16
3.5[1d2/2d10] - Monk level 20

also another incentive to help pure shintao monks or mostly pure anyway. (Touch the Void Dragon: Ki Activate: Expend a use of Meditation to gain a 1d4+1 Insight bonus to all ability scores for one minute. (Cooldown: 1 minute) it needs changed. changing it to exceptional would help, or redo it entirely and change it to something else.

Janitorman
10-14-2014, 05:36 PM
If I remember right there is also an enhancement in radiant servant tree that can give 10% heal amp as a temp buff, and since crown of summer is included in the calculation this should be as well. So tack on another 10% for 8.97*1.1 = 9.87 multiplier.

I still am unhappy about the change. I understand that it is a fix to a strange system, buff to most builds, and will help future itemization. That said I am still upset for purely selfish reasons of my favorite build being reduced to rubbish. Since these changes are not finalized (hopefully) I feel that there is still some more middle ground to where heal amp builds can gain a little more without undermining the new system. I have yet to think it through, so will put some thought into it.

Other thoughts: yes fists of light and vampiric weapons need some serious love as mentioned previously. Unfortunately now if you do a greater and or higher tier of vampirism it will reward everyone much more than it would have with little investment, so I don't see those in the near future.

I still don't see why such high heal amps on builds that sacrificed to get it was such a bad thing. Giving up a twist slot, 3-4 gear slots, a bad tier 5 enhancement selection, huge investment in multiple enh trees, thereby losing alot of dps and other benefits all to get vampirism to actually be noticeable. I did not see it as gamebreaking.

One more flavor build to bite the dust...

mikarddo
10-14-2014, 05:42 PM
The rather significant buff to most builds that have a "normal" range heal amp seems uncalled for. This simply seems too good for most builds to be a wise idea.

Dagolar
10-14-2014, 05:46 PM
Fleshmaker (AKA: Finger Necklace) has always been trying to do addition, not multiplication, which is why it was a bit ... squirrelly when mixed up in other things that did multiplication.


Please, do NOT nerf the effectiveness of Jidtz Tetka and Finger Necklace.

Now, this'll be the first time I've had interest in calling out a no-nerf, so hear me out-
My issue isn't with how it'll affect builds, but how it'll affect items.

I've frequently commented on what a shame it is that older items with unique characteristics have become useless.
Take Chattering Ring and Icy raiment- +3 Dodge AC wasn't a big deal- except that it was stackable, and rare. These items were decent for their level, but subpar at cap level- except for niche use of stacking this rare bonus.

So many items were like that [heck, if you wanted +1 stacking tohit, you could still use the goggles of insight from Korthos- nothing else at the time gave the bonus.].

It's good that we've moved away from being able to use Heroic Nat Gann's staff at level 20 with minimal difference to the Epic one-
stat bonuses aren't as relevant as item bonuses, now [especially with the monstrosities that are Thunder-Forged items, which have twice the dps of ML 24 named items (eg Skybreaker)].

But at the same time, item originality across the board has been DRAMATICALLY diminished, with most items feeling like carbon copies of one another.
There's no real 'oooh, look at that item, that's interesting' anymore in the game, just 'okay, this cap level item is way better, lets use it'.

It's.. very generic MMO.

Nevermind that nearly ALL old epic and old raid items are actually subpar for their level to begin with, now. Add in their lack of unique features, and everyone ignores them, even if they do care for an item that's only good for 2 to 4 levels above its ML (versus the old system of being able to carry weapons across multiple levels- the one lingering remnant of this is Greensteel items, which start at ML12 but can function reasonably well into the early 20s).

Okay, with all that in mind-

The sole reasons to get Jidtz Tetka and Finger Necklace was that they were unique. Even to their level, they're not particularly good. I mean, ML 13 for an item with just 10% healing amp? Really?


But, the fixes are actually quite simple-
Jidtz Tetka remains stacking insight and doubles to 50 (following the standard for other healing amp transitions). It'll lose potency, but still be reasonably effective for healing amp builds. [And I'm only noting Jidtz Tetka in here because some people were inexplicably calling for it to be nerfed. Like it has anything else going for it other than the healing amp..]

Fleshmaker turns INTO a multiplicative- the one single remaining example thereof.

In other words, once your rating is calculated, it multiples the end result by +10%.

Effectively functioning more or less the same as it does now, and making it still rather useful to farm out.


Lets say you manage a rating of 200:
( (100 + 200) / 100 = 300% Healing Amp )
Add in Finger Necklace:
( (100+200)*1.1 / 100 -> 330/100 = 330% Healing Amp )


At very high ranges it might end up being comparable to Jidtz Tetka, falling in the 50%+ range-
But for most builds, it'd be in the 20% to 40% range, being relatively comparable to other sources.




Again, my point here isn't about build nerfing or unnerfing or any such thing.
You can sort that bit of balance out as you want.

I'm just pointing out that if you keep destroying the interesting items in the game, there's not going to be anything left to the game BUT the max level content.
And at that point, we may as well just go play another MMO, because hey, been there done that- and they generally do items BETTER than the modern DDO (with raid items in other games usually lasting you 5 to 20 levels (depending on the level range of the game- in DDO terms, comparative would be about 10 levels)).
When's the last time a non-new raid had any interest to people?
Gods, look how badly butchered CITW became. First the items got terribly overwhelmed by the new lootgen system, then they got given out in droves for free, then the new named loot of COMPARABLE LEVEL outmatched them.

At the moment, the only raids worth running (for loot that's persistent for several levels) is Thunderholme and Orchard.

Ex: I can twink out a TR toon with a ML20 Antique Greataxe, move to a ML24 Skybreaker OR Tier 1 Thunder-Forged (They're sadly comparable in DPS), and move to a Tier2/Tier 3 Thunderforged at ML26/28.
There's no longer any 'oh, this weapon for this build lasts for quite a few levels', there are no more real unique flavor items like Epic Souleater.
It's become a pure linear progression game, favoring only TRing, nothing else.
If you're planning a single life toon, you'd wait till the very newest raids, and simply run them until you get what you need, then you're done.

More importantly, this means -everyone at cap is outfitted in the same general selection of gear-.

So yeah.

Generic MMO.

I got into DDO for the character building- which has EXPANDED over the years, so great work with the new enhancement system and epic destinies and iconics and everything- and the loot system, which mimics pen and paper persistent loot values.

Now, we've got a mess of half-broken (or fully brokn) outdated content that includes the vast majority of content that isn't Thunderholme or Orchard, most items are homogenized [ex, Bloodstone and Epic Mari Chain for Seeker isn't special anymore, Dream Visor went from best item to worst in a single update~]..



So, while I'm not going to yell or beg or whatever for you to go and do some cleaning up on the whole, and bring back the game elements I love-

I will make this lengthy rant trying to protect the sanctity of just these two items-
Because, we gotta make a stand at somewhere, and at some point, right?


But really, please keep this element of the game in mind when mechanics affecting old items-
And, if possible, keep it in mind when the idea of touching on older content comes across the table.


Thank you~!

PS: In the same vein, we need to see improved vampirism, improved boon of undeath, repair amp items, modern recon/heal on hit items, improved.. there are so many reasonable mechanics already in the game to work with for item versatility and uniqueness that -simply haven't been carried over into (even remotely) recent updates-.

Please, for the love of cake, stop just giving us the same effects everywhere. No, guardbreaking is nice, but we don't want it on every shield (and I know this is a bad example, given that it's just on two shields so far, and it'd actually be fine in general seeing it on just one more shield, except that all the other Orchard gear feels so generic that just cloning an existing effect feels like a cop-out). Yes, dodge is lovely, thank you, but we can get that everywhere. Oh, +1 more to stats than other items? Faaaaantastic. That'll totally pimp my build, and I'm so very glad I didn't have something interesting and still rare like Stealth Strike to consider on a comparable item instead.

Every item has the same effects these days- from stats to lootgen effects like dodge and doublestrike, to generic bonuses like +10 stacking spellpower or +2% stacking spell crit.
'Yay'.

Sure, you get some interesting ones, like Lantern Ring and Mystic Eidolons, I'm not trying to dismiss all recent items, just the majority of them.. and okay, maybe nearly all of Epic Orchard, yeah.

I'm just pointing out that the emphasis doesn't seem to favor those items, especially with older such items constantly being removed from viability or capability, meaning the overall scope is limited to just those at-level-cap items.

Okay. Done this time, really... :)

Nadion
10-14-2014, 05:46 PM
Ugh

Why does Turbine always choose to add more power creep and perpetuate inconsistency in the game systems?

Self healing is already much stronger than it should be for non-divines. For the vast majority this will make it even stronger. Meanwhile they choose to continue the silliness of having different values of the same bonus from gear stack, in contrast to to every (i think) other stat. Just make the gear values a little higher but non stacking. Simpler, consistent, less OP, people won't be compelled to clog multiple slots with amp gear.

Adding amp augments in a system that allows stacking would be even worse as that just about guarantees that everyone will have max amp without even having to compromise their gear plan to achieve it.

Impaqt
10-14-2014, 05:52 PM
Please, do NOT nerf the effectiveness of Jidtz Tetka and Finger Necklace.
(snip...lots of wasted typing....)


Jidz is 25 and will convert to 50. seems reasonable.

Finger necklace should simply be bumped to 30 or 40 rather than 10% to 20Healing Amp. as a level 13 item, its obviously intended to be something better than 20healing amp.

No need for it to work differently than everything else.

LrdSlvrhnd
10-14-2014, 05:53 PM
A character sheet update is not slated for this update. (Though we agree it should be there.)

Can we get a character sheet update slated soon? And I don't mean the silly "SOON(TM)", I mean *actually* soon.

Ranged doublestrike. (Seriously, why was melee added and not ranged?)
HAmp.
Energy absorption (this would be good combined with resistance like "Fire 30/33%" to show that there's 30 points of resist and 33% of absorption). This needs to include negative and light also.

I'm sure there's a lot more besides. HAmp and Doublestrike can be included in pop-ups, but the absorption should be integrated with the resist (probably would require moving PRR/MRR).

And back on topic... I like how this sounds so far. Looks like *most* builds will get a buff, and only extreme ones will get nerfed.

CaptainSpacePony
10-14-2014, 05:55 PM
No, because if we did that they wouldn't stack. We want current items to have the same stacking in the new system as they do on live.

Sev~

I think stacking items is a bad thing. Although not as bad as the current multiplicative system, it remains counterintuitive/unnecessarily complex, and I am confident it will continue to restrict design space in the way that dodge, exceptional, GS skill bonuses, and .... crud (there was something else that I can't remember) all did. The Equipment R/HAmp bonus should the highest value only, not each separate value.

I recognize you're trying to throw a bone to the legacy HAmp maxers, but I firmly believe this is the wrong way to go.

Other than the issue w/stacking equipment bonuses, this new system sounds great.

AbyssalMage
10-14-2014, 05:58 PM
While I applaud you (and the development team) for wanting to streamline the system, I honestly find the reasoning a big pile of "poo." Here is my reasoning:

In the most extreme cases, you may be near indestructible but you are as scary as a Rabbit with a club at Epic Elite levels. It's simply overkill for EH or lower :) So figure out what you are balancing against. EE it is worthless, EH and lower is overkill.
If you are truly trying to streamline the system, your first pass should be to remove the different amounts stacking. 30/20/10 sources should not stack. Again, this should be your fist pass, not your current proposal. Double everything like you did with the "Dodge" pass and "Skill" pass and begin with this as the starting point.
Your second pass should be to "Tier" the system like everything else you have done. Again, this keeps inline with every other change you have done to this point. Equipment Bonus, Insight Bonus, Racial Bonus, Artifact Bonus, Guild Bonus, ect...

So yes, I call BS, but that is only because the recent development team seems to have no coherent plan for DDO nor has it looked at past development teams to see what they did well and what could have been improved upon.

Again, if your true intention is to bring Healing Amp into line with Dodge, Skill Boosts, and "everything else" then your fist step is to remove stacking of different types, double all values, type each form of Healing Amp. This will consolidate gear for players and allow you to control the max amount of Healing Amp a player can wear so you can balance Healing as well as Damage (from NPC's).

AbyssalMage
10-14-2014, 06:00 PM
I think stacking items is a bad thing. Although not as bad as the current multiplicative system, it remains counterintuitive/unnecessarily complex, and I am confident it will continue to restrict design space in the way that dodge, exceptional, GS skill bonuses, and .... crud (there was something else that I can't remember) all did. The Equipment R/HAmp bonus should the highest value only, not each separate value.

I recognize you're trying to throw a bone to the legacy HAmp maxers, but I firmly believe this is the wrong way to go.

Other than the issue w/stacking equipment bonuses, this new system sounds great.
Hey, I was thinking the same thing. You just type/put your ideas down faster than me :)

Sgt_Hart
10-14-2014, 06:01 PM
I love it, I'm a big fan of the change, and unifying all the not-dnd-systems to use teh same layout and math. That said..


Now let’s look at an extreme Human/Monk/Paladin hybrid build to see how high we can stack Healing Amplification currently.



Source Multiplier Product
Base for Living 1 100% 12 Monk
Fleshmaker 1.1 110% 5 Paladin
Human 1 1.1 121%
2 1.1 133%
3 1.1 146%
Monks Shintao 1.05 154%
3 1.05 161%
6 1.05 169%
12 1.05 178%
Paladin t3 1.1 196%
Paladin 4 1.1 272%
Paladin 5 1.1 272%
Crown of Summer (Druid) 1.15 272%
Item 10% 1.1 300%
Item 20% 1.2 360%
Item 30% 1.3 467%
Paladin PL x3 1.15 538%
Jidz-Tet'ka 1.25 672%
Guild 1.1 739%
Exalted Angel 1.03 761%
Exalted Angel 1.03 784%
Exalted Angel 1.04 816%
Unyielding Sentinel 1.1 897%


How this would look with the new system:




Source Multiplier Product
Base for Living 1.0 1.0 12 Monk
Fleshmaker +20 1.2 5 Paladin
Human 1 +20 1.4
2 +20 1.6
3 +20 1.8
Monks Shintao +10 1.9
3 +10 2.0
6 +10 2.1
12 +10 2.2
Paladin t3 +20 2.4
Paladin 4 +20 2.6
Paladin 5 +20 2.8
Crown of Summer (Druid) +30 3.1
Item 10% +20 3.3
Item 20% +40 3.7
Item 30% +60 4.3
Paladin PL x3 +30 4.6
Jidz-Tet'ka +50 5.1
Guild +20 5.3
Exalted Angel +6 5.36
Exalted Angel +6 5.42
Exalted Angel +8 5.5
Unyielding Sentinel +20 5.7



As you can see, this would be a buff to most builds, and a nerf to extreme Healing Amplication stacking because it’s additive. Any build that currently had less than 250% healing amplification would be buffed, while builds with more than 250% healing amplification would see a reduction in effectiveness.

Sev~


That's some "Barbarian" math right there...

Scraap
10-14-2014, 06:01 PM
Will you be looking into vampiric and regeneration effects in conjunction with the revamp, or do you consider that out of scope?

Selchin
10-14-2014, 06:02 PM
How will War Forged Healer's Friend by treated?

Since I haven't seen this answered yet... I'm curious about this as well. Will the warforged base healing penalty take the form of a -50 healing amp rating and the Healer's friend enhancements just add 10 healing amp each, or will the penalty and healer's friend enhancements still affect the base multiplier and thus be independent from the rest of the healing amp system?

Tesrali
10-14-2014, 06:05 PM
+1, if it makes you guys comfy enough to release augments, =)

(Personally, am in the sweet zone of about 300% atm, so not much will change for me.)

However...

if it's not broke don't fix it!

pls be careful haha

Tesrali
10-14-2014, 06:07 PM
Changes to barbarians!? Please tell us more!

I know everyone is very excited to see them made viable in ee content again.

Can we introduce a new kind of silver flame pot for them in Anauroch? ^^ Not everyone runs all their silver flame favor, especially iconics.

haulindonkey
10-14-2014, 06:08 PM
Okay, now that we cleared the issue with the old items:

Are you really sure you wanna buff pretty much every build out there with these changes? The changes to PRR, MRR, Vanguard tree, Melee Power etc with the latest update gave us already way too much power than we probably needed. Toons are in almost god mode, even on EE. This change will make questing and raiding, for most of us, even easier.

I'm not really sure this buff is needed at all. And still, I don't see a reason for this change. If itemization was your problem, adding more Heal amp choices would have been a better solution. But you guys at Turbine don't like easy solutions so not expecting it.

I'm with Wizza on this. I welcome the changes, won't nerf all but the most extreme builds and will buff many.... But, could we maybe get a content/monster balance after we fix this.... So EE is again challenging to most of the populace? Oh and yes please fix exploits and long-standing bugs. Maybe with the Barbarian love in next update (needed), sneak in some re-balancing of content to compensate for the massive melee buffs that have come in recently (speaking as someone who plays a lot of melee builds). I would like EE to be at least moderately challenging again.

Thanks in advance<

Golehmus War Skald

davmuzl
10-14-2014, 06:09 PM
Can you explain what the problem with adding new 20% and 10% items at higher lvls would be?

I like the idea of heal amp enhancements in the barbarian trees.

Lokeal_The_Flame
10-14-2014, 06:11 PM
The amounts from gear will be huge, though, and overshadow the effects from past lives and enhancements, even if they are doubled.


I'm looking forward to these changes because with them comes both complaints and praises, one praise for example will come from Fleshy artificers with the Ring Of The Master Artifice equipped.....

Severlin
10-14-2014, 06:13 PM
I love it, I'm a big fan of the change, and unifying all the not-dnd-systems to use teh same layout and math. That said..




That's some "Barbarian" math right there...

IIRC there was no change because the build in question could not possibly take those sources of healing amplification. I'll have to check that tomorrow though.

Sev~

UurlockYgmeov
10-14-2014, 06:17 PM
The amounts from gear will be huge, though, and overshadow the effects from past lives and enhancements, even if they are doubled.


agree - several Past Life Feats need to be updated (Barb Paly as example of 2).

Do agree with Dev's - this is in the spirit of not nerfing but buffing weaker classes while fixing a major exploit (HAMPster builds)

Sgt_Hart
10-14-2014, 06:17 PM
IIRC there was no change because the build in question could not possibly take those sources of healing amplification. I'll have to check that tomorrow though.

Sev~

Then why did it change in the latter, and not the former? Not trying to pick on you, but it seems like the math is skewed in one example or the other.

bbqzor
10-14-2014, 06:20 PM
Greetings, Today we want to discuss healing amplification.

Yea hi.


Our goal is to adjust it to be additive rather than multiplicative, in a way that benefits many players while minimizing the “nerf” to current players ... Why change it? We'd like introduce new sources of healing amplification on new items, but the team has been reluctant to do so with the current system because it is too powerful when stacked extremely high, and not good enough in small doses. With these changes we could add more items with healing amplification.
(paraphrasing by me to maintain focus, no turns of phrase intended, etc)

Okay. You are saying:
1) We are changing Healing Amp because of goals
2) One goal is to have no or minimal nerfs
3) One goal is to promote future itemization
4) One goal is to make it useful in smaller amounts


Our current plan is to make Healing Amplification an additive rating and, to make it more effective in smaller doses, double the current values on enhancements and other sources of Healing Amplification. Healing Amplification would become a rating so it works just like Melee Power, Ranged Power and Spellpower. That is, Healing Amplification rating increases all healing by (100 + Rating) / 100. This would keep the game systems consistent. Repair Amplification would work the same, as well as values that allowed Pale Masters to heal with Negative Energy healing. The current percentage values would be converted into a rating and then, to keep Healing Amplification competitive, the rating would be doubled. 10% Healing Amplification would become a rating of 20. 20% Healing Amplification would become a rating of 40.

Lets examine these changes in light of the above goals:

1) Yes, its a change. And not one which is hard to understand (current heal amp can be because displayed values, actual values, and the math rounding involved isnt 100% transparent to all players). Additionally, its somewhat intuitive in that it mirrors other systems.... but this could be a case where its not. Like, will two 30% items turn into two +60 items which stack for +120? Or will the 30% turn into +60 which is then typed as +60 Insightful? And that will stack with a 20% turned +40 Exceptional? And if so, thats going to be a bit confusing, as well as very difficult to manage from an itemization standpoint (as a player, ie, trying to cram the different types in will be no different than now... a giant pain... even if there are more around). I would hope and suggest a great deal of thought be given to how a) obvious and b) accessible these new things will be. Right now, people who get it know you can do 10 w/ 20 w/ 30... this new system sounds exactly the same. In which case, why not just change the math and not bother with the rest of it? Somewhat of a wash here. Its new, but its more "new math" than "new system".

2) This part is fine. The little bit of math I did shows basically staying in the same ballpark for most common cases. Super amp builds, while perhaps fun, were not wholly end game viable (ee etc) already as they cost too much to achieve. While generally I dislike seeing character options go, having one which already had a lot of limitations in addition to being difficult to put together become a bit worse isnt that bad. Generally, this is about as good as can be expected. It is superior, in terms of player benefit, to what I would have considered doing were it my call, so not much to add here other than fair is fair and this largely is.

3) Heres where I think you could strike out, relatively speaking. Its only going to compound the currently bad situation. Right now, if you want amp, you have to use one of the few combos with it. Going forward, sure you can put amp on more things. Yes, that gate is lifted. But you STILL have itemization problems. Now there are even more mutations competing for space on items. And like some other mods, this is one everyone will "need" (in whatever form works for thier guy, repair amp, neg amp, etc). It is very difficult to run a character today who doesnt have a resistance item, for example. So they are not super difficult to get. If you make healing amp like that, two things will happen. First, itll become so common that it basically just bumps everyones power level up and you have to make harder content to compensate, creating a situation where it goes from a "need" to an actual mechanical real need. Second, if it doesnt become so common, it will be exactly as it is now. If you want it, you have to use the few items with it, and just hope they randomly happen to have other useful modifiers on them for your character in question. While the proposed changes are good, maybe even better than anticipated, they dont actually do much of anything for itemization. It creates another staple we either have to have, or have to make sacrifices for, and thats exactly the case now.

4) This goal is addressed well. It is directly more useful in smaller amounts. A lone item which is currently 30% in effect becomes a 60%, a lone enhancement line which might be two 10%'s now yielding 21% on live becomes 40%, etc. This is the goal best met of all of them, actually. No longer is this a go big or go home situation, a little bit will meaningfully help.

A few more comments:


Our current plan is that all existing sources of healing amplification will stack as they do today, but they will be given various bonus types so players will be able to understand how they will stack with potential future items and enhancements.

This goes back to what I said before. If its a matter of stacking an enhancement, exceptional, and insight bonus (chosen because thats how ability scores work now and everyone seems to get that, in parallel to 10/20/30% amp items), hey thats great, but its no different than things are now. Except youre saying the mods will show up on more things, more often. Ok so we all get greater access to the ability, and the ability helps us more... but we still have to fit in on our guys somehow. Other than making it less "youre pigeonholed into this one item because its the only amp item" (historically: gloves slot, Im looking at you)... Im not sure much will change. You will REALLY have to make this an "in addition to usual mods" type of mutation to achieve what you are describing, and Im not sure thats good.


Any build that currently had less than 250% healing amplification would be buffed, while builds with more than 250% healing amplification would see a reduction in effectiveness.
Ill take your word for this, didnt do all the math. I would like to point out that choosing this break point (as opposed to say 300%) really limits the effect of many "high end" mutations like Vampirism.

I would request, as they are popular and this hurts them, that this also be made more available. As a related mutation and something else that helps address self healing (largely why healing amp is desired), it should perhaps also be increased and/or made available. Maybe its time for Epic Vampirism for 2d3 or something. When we can easily hit 1k hps on many builds, getting like 2 hp back per swing isnt all that cool. The amp changes make changes here possible (since 1 pt no longer potentially turns into like 10), Id like to see them too.


Our current plan is that all existing sources of healing amplification will stack as they do today, but they will be given various bonus types so players will be able to understand how they will stack with potential future items and enhancements.
Can we safely assume that current Enhancement stacking will go unaffected? As in, human paladins and monks are still fine... half elf monks still wont stack... etc. Theres a lot of talk of things changing in regards to the future, it would be nice to be explicitly told that no ones current combination is getting voided (even if the values of said combination change).


We’d also like to give Barbarians lots of Healing Amplification as part of the Barbarian pass, but it just isn’t possible with our current multiplicative model ... Barbarians would be getting sources of Healing Amplification in their trees.

You twice mention this... heres the deal. Barbarians cannot heal themselves while raged. Healing Amp does not address or fix this. And I am not trying to suggest they should be able to heal while raged (true statement or not, its a whole different topic).

I am merely pointing out that they could have 1000% amp, and still wont be able to use it (other than passives like epic primal past life). This will NOT address their dependency on others to function. That dependency is the core from which stems many of the class's issues. They NEED it addressed, at some level. No other class is so starkly put at the mercy of other players, and frankly its not always that fun to be "helpless". I have a barbarian, Ive used him in EE content and he does okay, but its just not my first choice for this (and other) reasons.

I strongly feel they SHOULD get healing amp in their trees. So this is a good sign. I just want to be clear that this is not THE fix to the issue. It is part of the fix. I hope there are other components being looked at as well which will create an overall package that fully comes to terms with their play style drawbacks. They dont have to fully go away, many classes have some tradeoffs sure, but they need to shift away from the severity of their limitations.

Healing amp alone doesnt do any shifting. Youre still exactly as dependent on everyone else. It just takes less effort for them to help you. That helps out others, not the barbarian.


Having a healing amplification augment is the type of item we envisioned when we were looking at changes.
Now THIS could definitely address your "future itemization" goals. Especially if you actually put one out for all the different types (neg, repair, etc). If you are looking at expanding our choices into the realm of augments, combined with these changes, I strongly feel this would be a winning shift in game paradigm... as long as the augment is NOT some billion run raid timer eating grind to get a single aug... Make it reasonably accessible (to get on several characters for someone not playing the game as a full time job or spending 100s of $) and I think it will work well.

.........

In total, this is a good set for "potential changes". Taken exactly as is, assuming no changes to current "stacking" between existing sources/effects, and then including reasonably accessible healing augments to all types of healing players use, and you have a winning proposal. Especially since it actually does have minimal nerfs to existing cases, unlike many other "minimal nerf" situations weve been through. Its not what I would have done, but its less extreme change now, and more future proof later, so its probably better... and I cant often say that about dev stuff.

As for barbarians, like I said, this isnt a saving change on its own but will see what else comes down the pipe. It needs to be there, but as a part of a larger picture. Once we have that picture, Im sure youll hear about it.

Thanks, I think... saying that feels like a trap. Dont Ref Save me bro.

PsychoBlonde
10-14-2014, 06:22 PM
Monks and monk splashes still need healing amp to be survivable.

Not really. Sure, it can be DESIRABLE, but it's not NECESSARY. I never found it worth wearing the godawful gear that you get stuck with.

PsychoBlonde
10-14-2014, 06:30 PM
Healing amp alone doesnt do any shifting. Youre still exactly as dependent on everyone else. It just takes less effort for them to help you. That helps out others, not the barbarian.

Barbarians can freely drink potions while raged, including some good ones like collectible turn-in pots (which heal over time, fairly large amounts once you start getting to the Improved and Greater pots) and silver flame pots. Even the BASE SF pot (without the speed penalty) heals 100, nearly as good as a heal scroll. Get some paladin past lives and a bit of healing amp gear and a barbarian should do pretty well, especially if they get some improved damage resistance.

Heck, just getting plain old CSW pots up to the 50/60 range is pretty nice.

bbqzor
10-14-2014, 07:02 PM
Barbarians can freely drink potions while raged, including some good ones like collectible turn-in pots (which heal over time, fairly large amounts once you start getting to the Improved and Greater pots) and silver flame pots. Even the BASE SF pot (without the speed penalty) heals 100, nearly as good as a heal scroll. Get some paladin past lives and a bit of healing amp gear and a barbarian should do pretty well, especially if they get some improved damage resistance.

Heck, just getting plain old CSW pots up to the 50/60 range is pretty nice.

Currently, a barb having all 3 paladin lives, a 30 amp item, and (sake of argument) 30 from enhancements (like a human might) currently has 200% amp, meaning a CSW pot might heal them for 40 (assuming 3d6+11 = 20 avg as a baseline). In the new system the same barb would have 250% amp and would heal 50 from the same potion.

Neither case is ever going to result in a 1500 hp epic barbarian being able to meaningfully self heal in a quest. It would take 37 potions to heal up now, and 30 potions after the update. You cannot practically stop to drink 30 pots between every fight.

As for SF pots, the 100 pt pot would heal 250, meaning it would take 5 to heal up (will assume youre not at zero hp to start). Thats one stack every two times you need to heal, since they only stack to 10. In addition, it means your epic barb is basically eating -5 to attack/damage/saves/etc the entire time due to the debuff. On top of devoting an entire bag tab to the same amount of healing a normal person might accomplish with a single stack of scrolls. Then, theres the massive plat cost, as sf pots certainly arent cheap. In total: also not practical.

Lets just agree that at some point potions become impractical and are not a meaningful method of healing in terms of class balance and enhancement design. Sure, they can get you through some parts of heroic well enough, but they are not going to matter 20+. Most of the time they stop mattering much earlier. The problems with barbarian arent how well they do in Waterworks, its that in the end they become so dependent they are difficult to provide contributions with relative to putting anything else in that same group slot.

And thats glossing over the fact the class shouldnt require 3 heroic past lives (in a wholly different class even) to even attempt to function to begin with, its a faulty assumption to even start under. Im sure not everyone will agree, but healing amp isnt going to solve barbarians. Its a component they need, but not the solution they deserve.

Violith
10-14-2014, 07:07 PM
I think stacking items is a bad thing. Although not as bad as the current multiplicative system, it remains counterintuitive/unnecessarily complex, and I am confident it will continue to restrict design space in the way that dodge, exceptional, GS skill bonuses, and .... crud (there was something else that I can't remember) all did. The Equipment R/HAmp bonus should the highest value only, not each separate value.

I recognize you're trying to throw a bone to the legacy HAmp maxers, but I firmly believe this is the wrong way to go.

Other than the issue w/stacking equipment bonuses, this new system sounds great.

there are plenty of stacking item sets in the game, From stats, to spellpower, and sneak attack. thats why there are differnet bonus types such as artifact, insightful, exceptional, alchemical, enhancement, equipment, etc. all of them can be gotten on 'Equipment' already, they merely provide different types.

that1guy9
10-14-2014, 07:11 PM
I like this idea

Qhualor
10-14-2014, 07:12 PM
Currently, a barb having all 3 paladin lives, a 30 amp item, and (sake of argument) 30 from enhancements (like a human might) currently has 200% amp, meaning a CSW pot might heal them for 40 (assuming 3d6+11 = 20 avg as a baseline). In the new system the same barb would have 250% amp and would heal 50 from the same potion.

Neither case is ever going to result in a 1500 hp epic barbarian being able to meaningfully self heal in a quest. It would take 37 potions to heal up now, and 30 potions after the update. You cannot practically stop to drink 30 pots between every fight.

As for SF pots, the 100 pt pot would heal 250, meaning it would take 5 to heal up (will assume youre not at zero hp to start). Thats one stack every two times you need to heal, since they only stack to 10. In addition, it means your epic barb is basically eating -5 to attack/damage/saves/etc the entire time due to the debuff. On top of devoting an entire bag tab to the same amount of healing a normal person might accomplish with a single stack of scrolls. Then, theres the massive plat cost, as sf pots certainly arent cheap. In total: also not practical.

Lets just agree that at some point potions become impractical and are not a meaningful method of healing in terms of class balance and enhancement design. Sure, they can get you through some parts of heroic well enough, but they are not going to matter 20+. Most of the time they stop mattering much earlier. The problems with barbarian arent how well they do in Waterworks, its that in the end they become so dependent they are difficult to provide contributions with relative to putting anything else in that same group slot.

And thats glossing over the fact the class shouldnt require 3 heroic past lives (in a wholly different class even) to even attempt to function to begin with, its a faulty assumption to even start under. Im sure not everyone will agree, but healing amp isnt going to solve barbarians. Its a component they need, but not the solution they deserve.

you just broke down my main.

so it looks like this isn't the "answer" we were hoping for in barbarian self sufficiency. well, hopefully there is more to come.

Singular
10-14-2014, 07:24 PM
The new system will be great. Well done!

Delacroix21
10-14-2014, 07:25 PM
So basically this a nerf to extreme heal amp builds (which are not very popular or powerful to begin with) and a buff to almost every other build.


Unfortunately this is also puts WF/BF and Palemaster builds at a comparative disadvantage as basically every other equally geared player will have greater healing power.


Can we see heal amp items changed OVERALL to increase repair/positive/negative energy? Rather then just one? This is sorely needed.

Delacroix21
10-14-2014, 07:28 PM
There is a lot of whining about the BF reconstruct SLA but I should point out that until BF was added, the only WF you saw were Sorcs/wizards and later artificers, with VERY FEW EXCEPTIONS.


This heal amp change will push the clock back towards making WF/BF/pale masters less viable once again by comparison.


Humans are still the most abundant race in ddo not BF, by a HUGE margin.

GWolfe
10-14-2014, 07:33 PM
you just broke down my main.

so it looks like this isn't the "answer" we were hoping for in barbarian self sufficiency. well, hopefully there is more to come.



I don't know why everyone wants Barbarians to be self sufficient, why can't we have one class that is still actually healer dependent? What I really want to see is a melee power buff for barbs as well as the heal amp to make them end game viable again. It's sad when I have a Horc Barbarian that does less DPS than a Bladeforged Paladin, even though the feats and gear on those characters are identical.

Ahem. Someone mentioned a Barb discussion thread?

Qhualor
10-14-2014, 07:38 PM
I don't know why everyone wants Barbarians to be self sufficient, why can't we have one class that is still actually healer dependent? What I really want to see is a melee power buff for barbs as well as the heal amp to make them end game viable again. It's sad when I have a Horc Barbarian that does less DPS than a Bladeforged Paladin, even though the feats and gear on those characters are identical.

Ahem. Someone mentioned a Barb discussion thread?

eh? you want a class to be dependent on others for healing? the game has changed too much for that to happen again and wont see much support for it other than a couple others im expecting to see in that barb thread. even with the changes to Paladin, a barb still should be at least competitive with straight up dps. i would look into your build to see if you can make some tweaks.

Madja
10-14-2014, 08:23 PM
Then why did it change in the latter, and not the former? Not trying to pick on you, but it seems like the math is skewed in one example or the other.

I might be misunderstanding the problem here, but if you're referring to the fact that Crown of Summer didn't change the % in the first example it's simply because he accidentally typed in the wrong numbers at paladin t4 and t5.
It should read t3 196% -> t4 215% -> t5 237% and then end up in 272% at Crown of the Summer.

I'm sorry if you were talking about something different.


---------------

In regards to the proposed change, I have mixed feelings about it...

I think it's great if it'll allow you to start putting HAmp on a greater variety of items and if you can include negative and repair amp that just sounds awesome!

On the other hand I feel that it'll just make HAmp into another "oldschool" toughness feat. By this I mean that almost everyone will be getting it, simply because it's such a huge boost for such a small cost, thereby making it a necessity and removing any real choice.
It'll buff many builds FOTM builds that don't really need it and it'll nerf some builds that desperately need it as HAmp is the only thing they have going for them.
There are many other builds that need a buff as well (especially melees), but I feel that this change is just a step in the direction of making all builds play virtually the same.
I understand that you want to make effects to be useful even at small numbers, but when most builds are able to reach the AC/HAmp/PPR/etc. "sweetspot" it just waters down build diversity.

I'm sorry if it didn't really make much sense, it's pretty late and I found it hard to describe my thoughts about this. I'm just worried that if you continue to destroy flavor builds (which are already underpowered), you'll also destroy what makes this game so special compared to the other generic MMOs.

GWolfe
10-14-2014, 08:27 PM
eh? you want a class to be dependent on others for healing? the game has changed too much for that to happen again and wont see much support for it other than a couple others im expecting to see in that barb thread. even with the changes to Paladin, a barb still should be at least competitive with straight up dps. i would look into your build to see if you can make some tweaks.



I think that generalization is flawed insofar as the reason that people have moved to self sufficient builds is the fact that there is little incentive to play a build that is not. Which hurts game play and raiding in particular imo. The most fun I have playing this game is when there is a dedicated healer and those are a rarity due to lack of need, and I know quite a few players that still like to fill the healing role.

Ok Now let's take a look at my paly vs barb base damage, just to keep it simple. I used the buffs that I have running 90% of the time I'm in quest for both classes. Barb has a 5.3[1d12] +82 with 55 melee power in Fury. So his base damage is roughly 135-226 As for the Paladin his is 6.3[1d12] +85 with 69 melee power in Crusader. Making his 154-272. And as of this latest update Frenzy/ Death Frenzy does not come close to the bonus light damage paly gets. No real need to get into destinies either. I will allow that the Paly has completionest feat as well as epic completionest but that's still negligible compared to how much weaker barbs are.

Toro12
10-14-2014, 08:50 PM
Just as a preface ; I've re done the math , there will be minor if any changes to my "healing amp" monk.
----------
I can appreciate the delicacy with which the proposed changes have been though out.

I'd be a bit ticked if I were one of the few running 6-700% amp (which was my final goal) getting dropped to 450-500%.

I'm guessing about 75% of the melee will get a buff. That will be those that have thrown on a pair of 30% gloves and called it a day. They will get a huge buff no getting their amp doubled for free. Even more so if augments are introduced as they will be able to just slot an extra x%.

those that have gloves and a pair of the 20% bracers that were available for a short time. Will get a decent buff but less so as they may only gain the double and the ability to free a gear slot and throw an augment in.


For amp heavy builds such as mine it will be pretty much status quo as the unique items that are taking slots probably will not be replicated in augments , but our amp will stay roughly the same. Maybe a minor side effect as I'll be able to drop DT vestments for augments.

Those that went full on amp nuts lose total amp and will only be able to replace one maybe 2 pieces of gear for augments.
------------
I don't normally like this kind of argument but Im thinking the heavy and extreme amp crowd will probably come back with this ;
'We spent weeks grinding DT runes to get our amp and months grinding epic claw gloves, now every yahoo and his brother can just augment slot that schotca ? '

For such an argument I'd love to see heal amp augments only available in a restrictive color. Definitely not yellow as has been suggested. Blue or red may be more appropriate.

Qhualor
10-14-2014, 09:10 PM
I think that generalization is flawed insofar as the reason that people have moved to self sufficient builds is the fact that there is little incentive to play a build that is not. Which hurts game play and raiding in particular imo. The most fun I have playing this game is when there is a dedicated healer and those are a rarity due to lack of need, and I know quite a few players that still like to fill the healing role.

Ok Now let's take a look at my paly vs barb base damage, just to keep it simple. I used the buffs that I have running 90% of the time I'm in quest for both classes. Barb has a 5.3[1d12] +82 with 55 melee power in Fury. So his base damage is roughly 135-226 As for the Paladin his is 6.3[1d12] +85 with 69 melee power in Crusader. Making his 154-272. And as of this latest update Frenzy/ Death Frenzy does not come close to the bonus light damage paly gets. No real need to get into destinies either. I will allow that the Paly has completionest feat as well as epic completionest but that's still negligible compared to how much weaker barbs are.

well, blue bars didn't want to "babysit" and others didn't want to be "babysat". the game had started moving in the direction of solo friendly and casual play. when EDs came along, it became quite easy for pretty much any build to twist self healing and get their umd up high enough to matter without any sacrifice to build. epic mob damage was increasingly getting higher so you needed dps > heals making defense and ranged builds king, which barbs are not designed to be. there are still some that like to play healer, but there are not many around, especially since the past few years its expected for everyone to be self sufficient. this is part of the reason why barbs all but died out. the game improved in self healing, but barbs fell behind still having to resort to potions. self healing has been around for too long and making 1 class dependent on others to survive wont make things better in the game. you would need to do the same thing to all melees, but that would cause a huge stir in the game.

honestly would need an actual build break down on what feats, enhancements, gear, stats etc both classes have to do a fair comparison and why your paladin out dps' your barbarian. about a week and a half ago i just finished off my TRs paladin lives and did see much improved dps, but still noticeably less than what my barbarian can do who has less up to date named gear. i would save that conversation for the barb thread though as this is about heal amp.

Munkenmo
10-14-2014, 09:47 PM
IIRC there was no change because the build in question could not possibly take those sources of healing amplification. I'll have to check that tomorrow though.

Sev~

My tank has the maximum possible healing amp in the game and is getting yet another a huge nerf :(. Once upon a time this build had access to the full benefits of the defensive prestiges, then I had to equip a shield. Now you're killing my healing amp too.

half elf, 18paladin, 2monk.

base 1.0

passives.
1.15 past lives

Enahancements
1.1 helf
1.1 helf
1.1 monk dil (not enough ap to take both monk dils and all 3 kotc enhancements)
1.1 kotc
1.1 kotc
1.1 kotc

Short term boost
2 Glorious stand

Gear

1.1 finger necklace
1.1 dragon touched
1.2 dragon touched
1.25 firestance + jidz tet ka bracers
1.3 gloves

Destinies
1.1 unyielding
1.103336 exalted angel

Buffs
1.1 ship buff
1.15 druid crown of summer


How to work out and do in game.
Take off all gear, reset all enhancements.

1.0 *1.15 past life = 1.15

put on fleshmaker necklace
1.15+.1 = 1.25

Now order doesn't matter, but redo all your AP's, put on all your gear, twist in your 10% from EA and get into undying sentinal.

1.25
*
1.1 helf
1.1 helf
1.1 monk dil
1.1 kotc
1.1 kotc
1.1 kotc
1.1 dragon touched
1.2 dragon touched
1.25 firestance + bracers
1.3 gloves
1.1 unyielding
1.103336 exalted angel
1.1 ship buff
1.15 druid crown of summer
-------------------
729.2% healing amp

----------------
2 Glorious stand which I could save for emergencies
----------------
1458.775% healing amp

http://i.imgur.com/XLnYAtD.png

Tuffgar
10-14-2014, 09:59 PM
I don't know why everyone wants Barbarians to be self sufficient, why can't we have one class that is still actually healer dependent? What I really want to see is a melee power buff for barbs as well as the heal amp to make them end game viable again. It's sad when I have a Horc Barbarian that does less DPS than a Bladeforged Paladin, even though the feats and gear on those characters are identical.

Ahem. Someone mentioned a Barb discussion thread?

I dont claim to be a super/master/expert at game balance, but when every other class except yours can do something like self healing, that sort of makes your class weaker. Normally that would come with signicant power in other areas to compensate, but right now every class is more or less out performing the barb.

If you don't see a problem with that, then maybe you need to reconsider your point of view.

SilkofDrasnia
10-14-2014, 10:52 PM
Just remove the "everyone gets a trophy for showing up" mentality. This thing is ruining the game.

Aye, for myself this will be a buff as I have 3pally PL 30% item and 20% item and very very rarely use finger necklace, so good for me.

On the other hand I dislike how they seem keen on normalizing builds so we end up all having the same thing. The best thing about DDO is the variety of builds from super gimp to super min/max strong and I hate how they seem to want to get rid of this so every boy and his dog can get things with very little sacrifice.



So basically this a nerf to extreme heal amp builds (which are not very popular or powerful to begin with) and a buff to almost every other build.


Unfortunately this is also puts WF/BF and Palemaster builds at a comparative disadvantage as basically every other equally geared player will have greater healing power.


Can we see heal amp items changed OVERALL to increase repair/positive/negative energy? Rather then just one? This is sorely needed.

Must agree, if they are going this route make hamp like the heal skill adding to both pos and neg at least. I leave out repair cause well I dislike toasters...so up with humanity and down the with the machine https://www.ddo.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.png

Janitorman
10-14-2014, 10:55 PM
So I agree with others that having multiple items with different values stack is different from other systems. Supposing these ideas are all "potential changes" and not already set in stone I suggest to change the idea in a slightly different way. Leave the enhancements, ED abilities, past lives as multiplicative bonuses. Since items seem to be one of the biggest reasons for this change, here is where the cutback happens. Only the highest value would count, with different bonus types stacking by adding instead of multiplying. In order to keep a small buff to majority, nerf to maxers, still double values.

Some math and results, all taken at end game:

(buffs)*(ED)*(enh)*(pastlives)*(sum of items)


All out heal amp:
1.1*1.1*1.03*1.03*1.04*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.0 5*1.05*1.05*1.05*1.15(1+.60+.50+10) = 7.27 or 727%

I suggest that crown of summer be an addition since it is a weapon buff, unique so it stacks. which would bring the total to: 777%

someone with small investment:
1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.15*(1+.60) = 296%

someone with almost no investment:

1.1*1.1*(1+.60) = 194%

feel free to add or remove any number of bonuses to see different values yourself

All out builds get a small nerf, others get buffed. New items can be added with appropriate values since they are only added instead of multiplied, having a much smaller effect as bigger values emerge. Only the highest value of each item type stacks, similar to other systems eliminating confusion. Some numbers may need to be tweaked slightly but my proposal seems like it can meet all of the design goals for this change... unless one of the unstated goals is specifically to nerf heal amp builds. Also I would think this would be easier by changing only item portion of code rather than having to change all of the code, but not a video game programmer so not sure there.

feedback welcome, feel free to shoot it down

SilkofDrasnia
10-14-2014, 11:00 PM
Hmm our items that will get doubled (20%~40 and 30%~60) will the ML on these items change?

Violith
10-14-2014, 11:16 PM
Hmm our items that will get doubled (20%~40 and 30%~60) will the ML on these items change?


I'd say no, no reason to adjust ML for it as they're becoming ratings, not doubling the amount given, which when put into the formula would give nearly the same result as they do now. so... no reason for them to.

EllisDee37
10-14-2014, 11:26 PM
Hmm our items that will get doubled (20%~40 and 30%~60) will the ML on these items change?Dodge items didn't have their ML change when then went from multiplicative to additive, including a similar doubling of effect.


The most fun I have playing this game is when there is a dedicated healer and those are a rarity due to lack of need, and I know quite a few players that still like to fill the healing role. In your "most fun" times, with a dedicated healer, were you the one playing the dedicated healer?

moo_cow
10-14-2014, 11:38 PM
Sort of related question here, but are scroll mastery enhancements going to become additive instead of multiplicative, for the effects of heal scrolls and such? Or are they remain the same?

It looks like I will be going from 417 on a heal scroll to 520 so I do like these changes at first glance. I do find it odd however that there seems to be a continuing theme to make healers obsolete since the majority of players will see an increase in self healing. (as far as I can tell so far)

nibel
10-15-2014, 12:02 AM
I think stacking items is a bad thing. Although not as bad as the current multiplicative system, it remains counterintuitive/unnecessarily complex, and I am confident it will continue to restrict design space in the way that dodge, exceptional, GS skill bonuses, and .... crud (there was something else that I can't remember) all did. The Equipment R/HAmp bonus should the highest value only, not each separate value.

I recognize you're trying to throw a bone to the legacy HAmp maxers, but I firmly believe this is the wrong way to go.

Other than the issue w/stacking equipment bonuses, this new system sounds great.

This. You have to choose between doubling the values, or allowing multi-item stacking. The change to an additive system is welcome.

IMO, you are setting your "equalizer" level too high. What is the equalizer level? The combination that will end up being the same in the old and new system. This is your base for math changes. Anything under this should be buffed, and anything over this should be nerfed.

IMO, the equal level should have been a first life human paladin (or monk) 20, with all healing amp enhancements, and using a single 30% item (usually, the PDK gloves). Not an half-elf pally/monk multilife with half dozen hamp items. But you on Turbine should have the numbers of which builds are more common on your average player.

And please, make at least the regular, generic, convalescent stuff apply to both positive and repair healing. BLADEforgeds may be abusing their recon buttons, but WARforgeds needs new ways to keep repairs viable. Right now, it is easier to make WF heal more from positive energy than repair.

========================

On other news, since every existing item will have a new bonus type to stack, what will they be? 10% becomes enchantment bonus, 20% equipment bonus, 30% exceptional bonus, jidz stay insight, fleshmaker profane bonus?

Grailhawk
10-15-2014, 12:03 AM
What type will be given to the following items?

Epic Gloves of the Claw
Purple Dragon Gauntlets
ToD Rings
Convalescence (20%) random loot
Convalescence (30%) random loot

SilkofDrasnia
10-15-2014, 12:12 AM
What type will be given to the following items?

Epic Gloves of the Claw
Purple Dragon Gauntlets
ToD Rings
Convalescence (20%) random loot
Convalescence (30%) random loot

My guess is Eclaw, 30% conv and pdk gaunt. will have the same type and not stack with themselves
ToD ring and other 20% like the 20% conv will be same type and not stack with themselves
Same for 10% type items.

30%, 20% and 10% items will be three different types.

What the "type" will actually be called isn't important only that diff types only will stack.

That is what I understood from what Sev posted anyhoots.

Grailhawk
10-15-2014, 12:16 AM
My guess is Eclaw, 30% conv and pdk gaunt. will have the same type and not stack.
ToD ring and other 20% like the 20% conv will be same type and not stack.

Same for 10% type items.

What the "type" will actually be called isn't important only that diff types only will stack.

That is what I understood from what Sev posted anyhoots.

Yes, that's what they have implied but until they give them a name we don't know for sure. I don't really expect an answer until Lamania comes back but wanted to ask.

Seikojin
10-15-2014, 12:24 AM
I think it is a nice revamp to healing amp. Two big reasons:
1. Buff for the majority who struggle to get their playstyle accepted in EE because they can't fit enough healing amp into it.
2. Nerf to those who cry for more challenge.

I am excited to see the other changes coming down the pipe. So when is it going to be on Lamma? Should get those tests done quick :)

Scrabbler
10-15-2014, 12:27 AM
A little suggestion / request for the healing amp changes:


Add stochastic rounding so that small amounts of healing amp can give a detectable improvement to small healing effects. For example, if I am getting hit with a bunch of 1 hp heals (like a Vampiric weapon) and have 20% net heal amp, then each hit should have an 80% chance of giving 1 hp and a 20% chance of 2 hp. Similarly, if i have 10% net amp and get an 8 hp CLW, 8 * 1.1 = 8.8, so that's an 80% chance of +8 and a 20% chance of +9.

This allows the healing to average out to the result given by the heal amp, without needing to use fractions of a hp. Otherwise there are undesirable effects, like a Vampiric weapon not caring about heal amp until you reach the 100% point, and then suddenly becoming twice as good.

SilkofDrasnia
10-15-2014, 12:28 AM
Yes, that's what they have implied but until they give them a name we don't know for sure. I don't really expect an answer until Lamania comes back but wanted to ask.

I expect they will do as they have implied unless they listen to some odd few that don't want hamp items to stack, if something backhanded goes on I think it will be with the of typing fleshmaker/blood items.

FuzzyDuck81
10-15-2014, 01:58 AM
As someone who tries to put *some* healing amp on every character but doesn't max it out, i like the look of these changes & think pretty much all of my characters will be better off.

Silkenwise
10-15-2014, 02:06 AM
How about you buckle down and fix some of the basics first, instead of screwing around with a perfectly functional system that only a few min-maxxers use. Honestly, this seems like a lot of effort for something that the vast majority of the player base will not try out or even much care about.

There are so many worthwhile things that are BROKEN that could be fixed, or ancient mechanics made relevant instead.

Just to take two peripherally related examples in healing: Regeneration items and Vampiric weapons:
As things are now, vampiric weapons don't even work properly to heal their measly 1 damage point per hit on shrouded pale masters. Vampiric shroud's ability that does the same thing, doesn't work AT ALL if you also have the Cloak of Night ability on.

Items can be crafted with Regeneration. And they heal..... 1 hit point Per Minute. ONE HIT POINT. Once a MINUTE. By comparison, a 6 plat starter potion of healing will easily heal you for 15 or 20. That's TWENTY MINUTES of healing time from that ring, and it's a base level 9 item. It's truly and fully USELESS!

At least in real Dungeons and Dragons, rings of regeneration will bring your dead body back from negative hit points, given sufficient time.
Maybe you should spend some of your work hours implementing that into the mechanics, instead.

g4b3
10-15-2014, 03:14 AM
Greetings,

Today we want to discuss healing amplification. Our goal is to adjust it to be additive rather than multiplicative, in a way that benefits many players while minimizing the “nerf” to current players, particularly players who have created builds that extend into the extreme ranges of the current Healing Amplification system. We realize that any additive system will impact some players who are stacking Healing Amplification to the extreme, but in many cases this will have a beneficial or neutral impact to builds.

Why change it? We'd like introduce new sources of healing amplification on new items, but the team has been reluctant to do so with the current system because it is too powerful when stacked extremely high, and not good enough in small doses. With these changes we could add more items with healing amplification. We’d also like to give Barbarians lots of Healing Amplification as part of the Barbarian pass, but it just isn’t possible with our current multiplicative model.

Our current plan is to make Healing Amplification an additive rating and, to make it more effective in smaller doses, double the current values on enhancements and other sources of Healing Amplification. Healing Amplification would become a rating so it works just like Melee Power, Ranged Power and Spellpower. That is, Healing Amplification rating increases all healing by (100 + Rating) / 100. This would keep the game systems consistent. Repair Amplification would work the same, as well as values that allowed Pale Masters to heal with Negative Energy healing.

The current percentage values would be converted into a rating and then, to keep Healing Amplification competitive, the rating would be doubled. 10% Healing Amplification would become a rating of 20. 20% Healing Amplification would become a rating of 40.

To summarize:

~ Healing Amplication is turned into a rating which is additive.
~ Sources of Healing Amplication converted to an integer value and doubled.

As an example, the Human enhancement Improved Recovery would now give +20 Healing Amplification. If you also took the Paladin enhancement Vigor of Life from the Knight of the Chalice tree, it would provide +20 Healing Amplification for a total of 40. In this new case the character would increase all healing by a multiplier of 1.4 instead of a multiplier of 1.21.

Thus in smaller amounts players would see a buff.

What will this do to actual builds?

Let’s look at a build with healing amplification to see how it is affected.


Our first build has two Paladin past lives (currently 10%), healing amplification from Vigor of Life (currently 10%), a 30% healing amplification source, and a 20% healing amplification source.

On live this would be 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.3 * 1.2 for a total multiplier of ~1.887.

Under the new system this would be 20 + 20 + 60 + 40 for 140 Healing Amplification, which would be a multiplier to healing of 2.4 which is an increase in effectiveness.


Now let’s look at an extreme Human/Monk/Paladin hybrid build to see how high we can stack Healing Amplification currently.



Source Multiplier Product
Base for Living 1 100% 12 Monk
Fleshmaker 1.1 110% 5 Paladin
Human 1 1.1 121%
2 1.1 133%
3 1.1 146%
Monks Shintao 1.05 154%
3 1.05 161%
6 1.05 169%
12 1.05 178%
Paladin t3 1.1 196%
Paladin 4 1.1 272%
Paladin 5 1.1 272%
Crown of Summer (Druid) 1.15 272%
Item 10% 1.1 300%
Item 20% 1.2 360%
Item 30% 1.3 467%
Paladin PL x3 1.15 538%
Jidz-Tet'ka 1.25 672%
Guild 1.1 739%
Exalted Angel 1.03 761%
Exalted Angel 1.03 784%
Exalted Angel 1.04 816%
Unyielding Sentinel 1.1 897%


How this would look with the new system:




Source Multiplier Product
Base for Living 1.0 1.0 12 Monk
Fleshmaker +20 1.2 5 Paladin
Human 1 +20 1.4
2 +20 1.6
3 +20 1.8
Monks Shintao +10 1.9
3 +10 2.0
6 +10 2.1
12 +10 2.2
Paladin t3 +20 2.4
Paladin 4 +20 2.6
Paladin 5 +20 2.8
Crown of Summer (Druid) +30 3.1
Item 10% +20 3.3
Item 20% +40 3.7
Item 30% +60 4.3
Paladin PL x3 +30 4.6
Jidz-Tet'ka +50 5.1
Guild +20 5.3
Exalted Angel +6 5.36
Exalted Angel +6 5.42
Exalted Angel +8 5.5
Unyielding Sentinel +20 5.7



As you can see, this would be a buff to most builds, and a nerf to extreme Healing Amplication stacking because it’s additive. Any build that currently had less than 250% healing amplification would be buffed, while builds with more than 250% healing amplification would see a reduction in effectiveness.

Stacking
Our current plan is that all existing sources of healing amplification will stack as they do today, but they will be given various bonus types so players will be able to understand how they will stack with potential future items and enhancements.


When looking at these changes, players should know the following:

~ This system would allow us to start putting stacking Healing Amp on high level items again.
~ Barbarians would be getting sources of Healing Amplification in their trees.

Sev~

Okay, but then revamp vampirism effect to 1d4 hp/hit rather than 1d3/hit. That would mean 2.5 hp/ hit rather than 2 hp/hit which would also mean (technically) an 1.25 multiplier and thus it would mean vampirism pretty much gets less nerfy.
Instead of the 8*2 hp for high end build, this would mean 2.5*5.5 (16 hp reduced to 13 on hit avg, that is "tolerable").

GeoffWatson
10-15-2014, 04:15 AM
Will Harper have the second tier of Healing Amp added?
It's mentioned in the release notes, but not live.

Geoff.

Yellowmace
10-15-2014, 04:28 AM
Seriously, there are so many, really so very very very many things that are broken in the game right now that you should not be wasting the time and money this is going to cost.

Just look at the know issues list! there are things that have been on there for over a year and they effect the game now, for many players.

Fix those issues before you going messing with something that is in no way broken, REALLY there is nothing about the current healing that is ruining the game for anyone, it is a non-issue. It is wasteful and foolish to start pulling at this thread when you have so many, SO VERY MANY known problems.

I can only think that your doing this so you can buff up barbarians, but it is a sloppy shortcut that will hurt all of us players, surely you can see this? I am all for buffing and helping Barbarian trees, it is well over due, but this is the worst kind of "development design" It is breaking something to create a chance to maybe add to a class.

So find another way to change the Barbarian class trees without making a enormous mess by screwing with something in the game that is currently NOT BROKEN.

Alternative
10-15-2014, 04:28 AM
I'd cautiously say that the heal amp changes are generally acceptable, but the idea to make barbs heal amp focused is yet another slap at monk's face. Sad.

Eth
10-15-2014, 04:36 AM
I'm really surprised different values from equipment will still stack (though in a different way).
So can we expect future high level items with 20 or 40 healing amp (which would currently be 10% or 20%)?
Because those are the one's that are lacking the most at the moment.

General_Gronker
10-15-2014, 05:11 AM
Just remove the "everyone gets a trophy for showing up" mentality. This thing is ruining the game.
A. It doesn't have that mentality, so that is a baseless complaint.
B. I pay for this game. That means I should get a trophy. So where's my **** trophy?


Ideally yellow.
No. Yellow has enough **** already. They should be colorless. Because there are tons of utterly useless colorless slots on the gear right now.

Shinjiteru
10-15-2014, 05:13 AM
As already mentioned, but some probably didn't read it. This change to hamp is caused by the barb revamp and the desire to give them more hamp in their own tree + give them enough hamp to survive without gimping barb dps.
Barbarian class was hit most(after bards) by the rise of the self heal builds + power creep of other classes. The current hamp system wouldn't work out for this idea.

I also think that the hamp of random gear shouldn't stack. Because I doubt this would work out in the future to hand out hamp as a random loot gen enhancement again. And with the new hamp rating... if you already have 80 from ML 30 items + Pally PL and some other hamp enhancements even the 20 rating of a random gear would hardly be worth the item slot it uses. But I think all named gear should stay stacking for now, since older items are usually already hit by 1-2 mechanic changes which made them weaker than random loot of same level.

And I am suggesting that although I still have several 10% and 20% hamp bracers.

To make up for that just include hamp 40 augments (and later mabye 60) which are stacking with everything in the next update(and maybe add hamp 20 augments to the GH vendors).

Yes this would hit the extreme builds but I would like to see a change to the current mechanic that would allow hamp on random loot somewhen in the future again. And I don't want to have random loot with 3 different types because all other changes to item stats look like Turbine doesn't want that either, so that this would change in the future anyways before we are seeing hamp on random loot again.


Apart from that it would be interesting to know how the wf and bf reduced base hamp would work in the new system (and the enhancements that increased the base hamp). If it's just a stacking -50 hamp(or -100 because of double amounts? :D ) and the enhancements value gets doubles as well it would make it easier to get a decent hamp on a wf/bf.
If it remains like it is today then it would be fine as well, especially wf barbarians need an easier way to get a positive hamp value in the current state of the game.

janave
10-15-2014, 05:36 AM
time better spent elsewhere
nothing new here

SilkofDrasnia
10-15-2014, 05:50 AM
As already mentioned, but some probably didn't read it. This change to hamp is caused by the barb revamp and the desire to give them more hamp in their own tree + give them enough hamp to survive without gimping barb dps.
Barbarian class was hit most(after bards) by the rise of the self heal builds + power creep of other classes. The current hamp system wouldn't work out for this idea.

I also think that the hamp of random gear shouldn't stack. Because I doubt this would work out in the future to hand out hamp as a random loot gen enhancement again. And with the new hamp rating... if you already have 80 from ML 30 items + Pally PL and some other hamp enhancements even the 20 rating of a random gear would hardly be worth the item slot it uses. But I think all named gear should stay stacking for now, since older items are usually already hit by 1-2 mechanic changes which made them weaker than random loot of same level.

And I am suggesting that although I still have several 10% and 20% hamp bracers.

To make up for that just include hamp 40 augments (and later mabye 60) which are stacking with everything in the next update(and maybe add hamp 20 augments to the GH vendors).

Yes this would hit the extreme builds but I would like to see a change to the current mechanic that would allow hamp on random loot somewhen in the future again. And I don't want to have random loot with 3 different types because all other changes to item stats look like Turbine doesn't want that either, so that this would change in the future anyways before we are seeing hamp on random loot again.


Apart from that it would be interesting to know how the wf and bf reduced base hamp would work in the new system (and the enhancements that increased the base hamp). If it's just a stacking -50 hamp(or -100 because of double amounts? :D ) and the enhancements value gets doubles as well it would make it easier to get a decent hamp on a wf/bf.
If it remains like it is today then it would be fine as well, especially wf barbarians need an easier way to get a positive hamp value in the current state of the game.

LOLwat?

First you say gear hamp items shouldn't stack but then say to make up for it by making augment hamp stack? Do you not see the problem or contradiction in this idea?



.......

No. Yellow has enough **** already. They should be colorless. Because there are tons of utterly useless colorless slots on the gear right now.

Agreed, so much suck in the colorless slot it is not even funny!

Glascanon
10-15-2014, 06:24 AM
So another buff then...
y that is what DDO needs more Buffs. -.-"

Since i play this game the Characters became more and more Powerfull.
The new enhancement System came with a huge buff of power in Epic and Heroics. Epic Past live Feats. Bards became the best Instant killers in the game plus awsome Damage dealers of course their still awsome Buffers Crowd controlers...
Now The Paladins became 1 man Armys Healer Damage Dealer and Tank in 1 Person and a Spell on lvl 14 wich gives more DPS and power then the full Kensai enhancement tree involves.
I mean Seriously! The one Spell gives u more DPS then 36 enhancement points or more spent in Kensai tree!!!
We got new Weapons with an massive amount of man stop power!
New items with an insanely high amount of effects on it.
Mele Power PRR overhaul and the new MMR System.
Now u want to double upp incoming heals...

STOP IT PLEASE!!!!

The game is already boring as ****!

I just tanked EE Deathwyrm 5 Kuljarghs and 3 Deathlords at the same time without an external Healer.

I engaged Mioor on EE in Haunted Halls and noticed that her Debuff stops stacking at 100 and then i laughed my as off.

I tanked 3 Undead Dragons and the Stormreaver with lots of melees engaging letting the Disease proc over and over, had all 3 Debuffs at full Stacks and was wondering why my HP doesn´t dropp below 80%


It was always possible to run Epic Elite content even without these powerupps!
The content doesn´t grow with all these Powerupps. EE right now is feeling like EH a patch before.

The Devs said the last changes where made to give the Melees a powerupp in compare to casters and ranged DD´s.

But in fact this patch buffed everything including the uber builds witch where already soloing EE´s 6 power patches ago.

Now almost every Build can solo EE´s in off destenie. I thought this is an "Massive Mutiplayer Online Game" MMO.

There is absolutely no content out there witch forces u to party up or even be in main Destenie with the full party to complete it.

The only thing witch may Stop uber players right now is a red dungeon allert wich slows u down to 0 and u get stucked inside of Mobs.
But that's not even dangerous its just anoying!
I engaged the new lvl 30 Content with my Guildmates and after a few minutes EE we where just wondering if it is somehow possible to pull the whole Dungeon without being stopped by dungeon alert.


Just to say if u haven't got that yet: The increase of Healing amplification will stack multiplicatively with the damage mitigation we got in the last Patch!


At the end i have to say: No matter how much power u give to the Characters, not every Player is made 4 running EE´s and the last thing u can not buff with a patch is the Player!

CaptainSpacePony
10-15-2014, 07:20 AM
This. You have to choose between doubling the values, or allowing multi-item stacking. The change to an additive system is welcome.

IMO, you are setting your "equalizer" level too high. What is the equalizer level? The combination that will end up being the same in the old and new system. This is your base for math changes. Anything under this should be buffed, and anything over this should be nerfed.

IMO, the equal level should have been a first life human paladin (or monk) 20, with all healing amp enhancements, and using a single 30% item (usually, the PDK gloves). Not an half-elf pally/monk multilife with half dozen hamp items. But you on Turbine should have the numbers of which builds are more common on your average player.

And please, make at least the regular, generic, convalescent stuff apply to both positive and repair healing. BLADEforgeds may be abusing their recon buttons, but WARforgeds needs new ways to keep repairs viable. Right now, it is easier to make WF heal more from positive energy than repair.

========================

On other news, since every existing item will have a new bonus type to stack, what will they be? 10% becomes enchantment bonus, 20% equipment bonus, 30% exceptional bonus, jidz stay insight, fleshmaker profane bonus?

I believe the major reason for this change is to open up design space, which I have long supported. However, this change will not be very effective to that end.

With equipment bonuses stacking, and being doubled we will see
20+40+60=120 immediately ((220 total healing because of 100% base and I'm ignoring fleshmaker's and Jidz for simplicity).

If HAmp design is fully mined out in coming year, we could see:
5+10+15+20+25+30+35+40+45+50+55+60+65+70+75+80=680 (780 total healing) from equipment ALONE. (IMO it is reasonable to assume that HAmp 80 or more items will be available since 30--soon to be 60-- is now easily available at ML 20 and 24). Yes that's a LOT of equipment and augment slots (coming soon) but I cannot stress how important it be that Equipment bonuses NOT stack w/one another.

I suggest instead, figure out a ML scale for equipment HAmp from scratch and then figure out what to do w/legacy gear from there. If ML 24 ends up being 240 HAmp than just change iron mitts to 240. You could cheat PDK gloves up to "break the curve" or leave it at the new ml 20 power, but that's a case by case call that shouldn't be too hard since there isn't a lot of gear that would need to be reworked.

The old system encouraging use of multiple HAmp items is out of place in DDO. Don't hang on to it, please.

Cure light wounds is the new Heal.

Alternative
10-15-2014, 08:37 AM
also just remembered pale masters have negative healing amplification, 10% on Deathwyrm Cloak, some on enhancements and PM capstone, what's happening to those?

JOTMON
10-15-2014, 08:46 AM
So another buff then...
y that is what DDO needs more Buffs. -.-"

Since i play this game the Characters became more and more Powerfull.
The new enhancement System came with a huge buff of power in Epic and Heroics. Epic Past live Feats. Bards became the best Instant killers in the game plus awsome Damage dealers of course their still awsome Buffers Crowd controlers...
Now The Paladins became 1 man Armys Healer Damage Dealer and Tank in 1 Person and a Spell on lvl 14 wich gives more DPS and power then the full Kensai enhancement tree involves.
I mean Seriously! The one Spell gives u more DPS then 36 enhancement points or more spent in Kensai tree!!!
We got new Weapons with an massive amount of man stop power!
New items with an insanely high amount of effects on it.
Mele Power PRR overhaul and the new MMR System.
Now u want to double upp incoming heals...

STOP IT PLEASE!!!!

The game is already boring as ****!

I just tanked EE Deathwyrm 5 Kuljarghs and 3 Deathlords at the same time without an external Healer.

I engaged Mioor on EE in Haunted Halls and noticed that her Debuff stops stacking at 100 and then i laughed my as off.

I tanked 3 Undead Dragons and the Stormreaver with lots of melees engaging letting the Disease proc over and over, had all 3 Debuffs at full Stacks and was wondering why my HP doesn´t dropp below 80%


It was always possible to run Epic Elite content even without these powerupps!
The content doesn´t grow with all these Powerupps. EE right now is feeling like EH a patch before.

The Devs said the last changes where made to give the Melees a powerupp in compare to casters and ranged DD´s.

But in fact this patch buffed everything including the uber builds witch where already soloing EE´s 6 power patches ago.

Now almost every Build can solo EE´s in off destenie. I thought this is an "Massive Mutiplayer Online Game" MMO.

There is absolutely no content out there witch forces u to party up or even be in main Destenie with the full party to complete it.

The only thing witch may Stop uber players right now is a red dungeon allert wich slows u down to 0 and u get stucked inside of Mobs.
But that's not even dangerous its just anoying!
I engaged the new lvl 30 Content with my Guildmates and after a few minutes EE we where just wondering if it is somehow possible to pull the whole Dungeon without being stopped by dungeon alert.


Just to say if u haven't got that yet: The increase of Healing amplification will stack multiplicatively with the damage mitigation we got in the last Patch!


At the end i have to say: No matter how much power u give to the Characters, not every Player is made 4 running EE´s and the last thing u can not buff with a patch is the Player!

So you are saying you are too powerful for the game and you should be nurfed.

FestusHood
10-15-2014, 08:52 AM
A. It doesn't have that mentality, so that is a baseless complaint.
B. I pay for this game. That means I should get a trophy. So where's my **** trophy?


No. Yellow has enough **** already. They should be colorless. Because there are tons of utterly useless colorless slots on the gear right now.

It kind of does have that mentality, since after these changes everybody will have a heal amp build.

Almost every one of my yellow augment slots is currently filled with a colorless augment.

Why do i need featherfall or water breathing on all the time? Why do i need proof against poison or disease augments, which, as far as i can tell, don't do anything useful? Why do i need to permanently slot individual elemental resistances when i can use a ship buff, cast a spell, or drink a pot for it?

Requiro
10-15-2014, 08:52 AM
While the idea is good, after some basic math, the result is that EVERYONE with minor items will gets HUGE buff...

I don't think that is wise improvement.

If I can suggest some balance solution:

Changes (all in new system):

Human Improved Recovery I - 2 Ranks, 1 AP Each, +5 Positive Healing Amplification per Rank
Human Improved Recovery II - 2 Ranks, 1 AP Each, +10 Positive Healing Amplification per Rank
Human Improved Recovery III - 2 Ranks, 1 AP Each, +15 Positive Healing Amplification per Rank

H-Elf Improved Recovery I - 2 Ranks, 1 AP Each, +5/10 Positive Healing Amplification
H-Elf Improved Recovery II - 2 Ranks, 1 AP Each, +10/15 Positive Healing Amplification

H-Elf Dilettante Special Ability Monk I - +10 Positive Healing Amplification
H-Elf Dilettante Special Ability Monk II - +20 Positive Healing Amplification

Monks Shintao Core ability Tier 1 - +5 Positive Healing Amplification
Monks Shintao Core ability Tier 2 - +5 Positive Healing Amplification
Monks Shintao Core ability Tier 3 - +10 Positive Healing Amplification
Monks Shintao Core ability Tier 4 - +10 Positive Healing Amplification
Monks Shintao Core ability Tier 5 - +15 Positive Healing Amplification
Monks Shintao Core ability Tier 6 - +20 Positive Healing Amplification

Paladin Knight of the Chalice Vigor of Life Tier 3 - 2 Ranks, 1 AP Each, +5 Positive Healing Amplification per Rank
Paladin Knight of the Chalice Vigor of Life Tier 4 - 2 Ranks, 1 AP Each, +10 Positive Healing Amplification per Rank
Paladin Knight of the Chalice Vigor of Life Tier 5 - 2 Ranks, 1 AP Each, +20 Positive Healing Amplification per Rank

Items with Convalescent 1 Prefix (or Unique Loot) - +10 Positive and Repair Healing Amplification
Items with Convalescent 2 Prefix (or Unique Loot) - +20 Positive and Repair Healing Amplification
Items with Convalescent 3 Prefix (or Unique Loot) - +30 Positive and Repair Healing Amplification

NEW Items with <New Name Here> 1 Prefix (or Unique Loot) - +10 Positive and Negative Healing Amplification
NEW Items with <New Name Here> 2 Prefix (or Unique Loot) - +20 Positive and Negative Healing Amplification
NEW Items with <New Name Here> 3 Prefix (or Unique Loot) - +30 Positive and Negative Healing Amplification

All Stacks together.

With these changes everyone will be happy (except extremely bored-people with 700% Healing Amplification Indestructible toons) :
- Basic toons will not get HUGE (50%-100% !!) buff, only minor (about 10-30% depends of Enhancements and/or Items)
- Most of the rest that have about 240-300% Healing Amplification, will remain the same. And they have opportunity to have more if they find new Items (and free some Inventionary slots).
- Undead Wizard will get minor buffs too (from new Items)
- Multiclassing Monks and Paladins will not be so easy-button like today (in the terms of Healing Amplification)

memloch
10-15-2014, 09:09 AM
How about you buckle down and fix some of the basics first, instead of screwing around with a perfectly functional system that only a few min-maxxers use. Honestly, this seems like a lot of effort for something that the vast majority of the player base will not try out or even much care about.

There are so many worthwhile things that are BROKEN that could be fixed, or ancient mechanics made relevant instead.



If you read the OP these changes are being made in advance of the Barb pass that so many have asked for.

Sev has also done a lot of work to bring some normality to the systems that are used which allows everyone to have a better understanding, instead of different rules for every system that leads to confusion and misinformation.

bennyson
10-15-2014, 09:15 AM
This change sounds good.

Now we can actually still get some decent healing AMPs and slot in DIFFERENT pieces of gear!

I like it!

droid327
10-15-2014, 09:23 AM
forum failed

droid327
10-15-2014, 09:26 AM
So what about the toasters? Are they going to start with -50, and then get +30 via Enhancements?

Kawai
10-15-2014, 09:27 AM
woot

bennyson
10-15-2014, 09:41 AM
So what about the toasters? Are they going to start with -50, and then get +30 via Enhancements?

THE ERA OF THE FLESHY!

Join us or become a can of Iron Defender's Food.

[sarcasm]

Glascanon
10-15-2014, 09:43 AM
So you are saying you are too powerful for the game and you should be nurfed.

Yes please! But not just me. Its all overpowered massive 4 the content upp these days.

It has to be either way. The devs start nerving us or bring upp tonns of new contet to runn or ppl will just get bored of running content without any kind of challenge included.

Right now its just about grinding. There was never a huge reason to run EE except the challenge part.
Now EE is not even challenging anymore it just takes a little longer but its same boring grind like EH or EN.

There are tons of Youtube vids out there witch show ppl running EE solo Quests or even Raids like LOB or ADQ.
I can solo almost every quest or Raid on EE with ease.
And my Toon was never meant to do that!
Running EE solo should not even be possible for any toon!
4 Soloing we have EN (or EH for the stronger toons)

Its not that ppl dont want to play tanks or healers or buffers like bards where before. The dmg dealers just dont need them and nobody wants to feel worthless in a quest.
So buffrers and tanks where made damage Dealers too.

Steiner-Davion
10-15-2014, 10:07 AM
This really needs clarification...

I'm assuming it means existing items wont get healing amp added to them.. but all existing items that already have HA will be adjusted to the new system.

Also: Please get the Character sheet revision in sooner than later... Still missing Spell Crit chance as well.


To to mention a break down of the bonuses/modifiers to skills too....

Impaqt
10-15-2014, 10:16 AM
I seeing a common theme among the people not so thrilled with this change....

Instead of posting an actual reason why they think its not a good idea, they are deflecting attention to "Why dont you fix things that are broken instead of this?!?!?!!"

That, to me, is a pretty good indication that thi sis indeed a step n the right direction.

The people against this change know they really dont have a leg to stand on.

FestusHood
10-15-2014, 10:26 AM
I will be interested to see the proposed changes for barbarians. Hard to imagine what kind of healing amp will be included that requires a system change where current paladin, monk and human amp enhancements don't.

I don't see a problem with the current equipment as far as values and stacking go. The only problem was a lack of variety in the sources. With current epic gear, only 30% is available, and always on gloves. For people who have them, legacy convalescent items are all bracers. Introduce gear with 10% and 20% values, on different items, and augments with 10%, 20%, and 30% values, and that would solve any problems i have with the current system.

Doubling the amounts on gear and still allowing them to stack(additively) will cause the effects from gear to dwarf the effects from paladin past lives, and to a lesser extent, enhancements.

The paladin past lives were always small amounts. The key was that with a multiplicative system, the number of sources is as important as the individual values of the sources. It's the combination of many tiny amounts of heal amp that allows the super heal amp builds to get as high as they do now.

I'm afraid that gifting huge amounts of heal amp on gear will make the work and/or sacrifice involved with getting the smaller amounts from past lives and enhancements not worth doing in an additive system.

Since an additive system is apparently inevitable, i would suggest that you either double the amounts, or let them stack, but not both. I would prefer letting them stack to doubling them personally. If they are doubled but not stacking, you will have to strictly level gate the amounts to prevent all amounts below the highest from becoming completely useless.

Pescha
10-15-2014, 12:06 PM
THE ERA OF THE FLESHY!

Join us or become a can of Iron Defender's Food.

[sarcasm]

Fleshlings are terrible so i am all happy if they nerf healing amplification.

Bridge_Dweller
10-15-2014, 12:38 PM
Fleshlings are terrible so i am all happy if they nerf healing amplification.

they didn't, it got buffed to **** for all but the worthless phoenix builds that were terrible in the first play.

You should go fleshy, and paladin. The light side has better cookies.

FAQ
10-15-2014, 12:53 PM
When I first read this thread, I was against the changes, just because I dislike change in general (yeah, I said it. Despite being in my early 30's I'm sure that a grumpy old man lives inside of me. Get off my lawn you **** kids).

After giving it some extra thought, these changes seem to be in the right direction. However, I think that doubling the Hamp values and making them stack is a bit of overkill, as others have pointed out. The solution I prefer would be just to make different values stack additively, without doubleing the effects. Yes, this would be a widespread 'nerf'. But maybe that is a good thing at this point and time.

This seems like a golden opportunity to reduce some of the power creep in the game. Just my 2cp.

SilkofDrasnia
10-15-2014, 01:53 PM
I will be interested to see the proposed changes for barbarians. Hard to imagine what kind of healing amp will be included that requires a system change where current paladin, monk and human amp enhancements don't.

I don't see a problem with the current equipment as far as values and stacking go. The only problem was a lack of variety in the sources. With current epic gear, only 30% is available, and always on gloves. For people who have them, legacy convalescent items are all bracers. Introduce gear with 10% and 20% values, on different items, and augments with 10%, 20%, and 30% values, and that would solve any problems i have with the current system.

Doubling the amounts on gear and still allowing them to stack(additively) will cause the effects from gear to dwarf the effects from paladin past lives, and to a lesser extent, enhancements.

The paladin past lives were always small amounts. The key was that with a multiplicative system, the number of sources is as important as the individual values of the sources. It's the combination of many tiny amounts of heal amp that allows the super heal amp builds to get as high as they do now.

I'm afraid that gifting huge amounts of heal amp on gear will make the work and/or sacrifice involved with getting the smaller amounts from past lives and enhancements not worth doing in an additive system.

Since an additive system is apparently inevitable, i would suggest that you either double the amounts, or let them stack, but not both. I would prefer letting them stack to doubling them personally. If they are doubled but not stacking, you will have to strictly level gate the amounts to prevent all amounts below the highest from becoming completely useless.


I think some people are letting their fears run away with from them, the whole point of this system it seems to me is to nerf all out hamp while buffing moderate amounts of it. Now some might feel the game is easy enough as is but Turbine seem to want to go this direction and it is really another debate altogether and has it own thread.

For pally PL, which I have 3 of btw, the simplest solution is to double the value. If people are really worried about power creep just leave hamp like it is period.

I am sure there are other ways barb can be buffed without the need to give them huge hamp.

axel15810
10-15-2014, 02:22 PM
I'm happy with the proposed change. Looks like a solid net positive. It simplifies the heal amp system.

Also good move putting hamp into barb trees. I hope this means you will be keeping the class unique (and not too similar to fighters) and give them no or minimal self healing in return for the biggest melee DPS in the game via a buffed rage. I'd love to see group play actually be a competitive playstyle again as oppossed to everything always being BYOH. Hopefully big heal amp for barbs means some nice group synergy with divines.

mikarddo
10-15-2014, 02:46 PM
I seeing a common theme among the people not so thrilled with this change....

Instead of posting an actual reason why they think its not a good idea, they are deflecting attention to "Why dont you fix things that are broken instead of this?!?!?!!"

That, to me, is a pretty good indication that thi sis indeed a step n the right direction.

The people against this change know they really dont have a leg to stand on.

Is there any particular reason that you ignore the opponents that are against the idea because its objectively a significant buff to many builds including some of the already strongest ones? One could think that by your own words this would show that you know you dont have a leg to stand on. ;)

Toro12
10-15-2014, 04:39 PM
I think some people are letting their fears run away with from them, the whole point of this system it seems to me is to nerf all out hamp while buffing moderate amounts of it. Now some might feel the game is easy enough as is but Turbine seem to want to go this direction and it is really another debate altogether and has it own thread.

For pally PL, which I have 3 of btw, the simplest solution is to double the value. If people are really worried about power creep just leave hamp like it is period.

I am sure there are other ways barb can be buffed without the need to give them huge hamp.

They are nerfing massive amp builds
Keeping moderate amp builds on level
Give a massive buff to those with next to no commitment to healing amp.

Honestly though that seems to be a side effect of just changing the system to something that is a bit easier to deal without the fear of crazy multiplicative stacking.

Monkey_Archer
10-15-2014, 04:45 PM
Well, consistency is good. So I will also be consistent with my feedback made on the last update's system changes.

Overall, from a player vs player perspective this change is great. Lessening the gap between healing amp builds is definitely a good thing. Well designed change and consistent with other system formulas.

From a player vs monster perspective, again, just like the armor and melee power changes, the numbers are absurd. A completely unnecessary buff, again, to help struggling builds become overpowered, rather than just tone down the problems.

Fact: A 1000 hp paladin with 100+ PRR/MRR and "only" 200% healing amp is virtually unkillable in 99% of content in this game. And that 1% is never going to be from damage alone (more likely from CC, stat drain, antimagic, etc..). There is no reason why a build like this needs more buffs (even if the goal is to help other struggling builds).


On a side note, I just managed to get my Zombarian to level 20 without using a single consumable for healing (Elite streaking solo). I would like to see how you plan to make this build overpowered as well. (please dont, the lengths I'm going to to find challenge in this game are getting to desperate levels)

Impaqt
10-15-2014, 04:48 PM
Is there any particular reason that you ignore the opponents that are against the idea because its objectively a significant buff to many builds including some of the already strongest ones? One could think that by your own words this would show that you know you dont have a leg to stand on. ;)

well, no, because thats really not true is it? I havent seen anyone show that a build thats over 500% healing amp show a net gain on this proposed system. Are you claiming that the folks running 600-900% healing amp currently are getting stronger with this new system? can you elaborate on that?

regardless, even if they did get buffed, I wouldnt care because the system still helps players like myself significantly. the players that dont grind the past lives and try to squeeze in items in every slot they can.

Uska
10-15-2014, 04:56 PM
Is there any particular reason that you ignore the opponents that are against the idea because its objectively a significant buff to many builds including some of the already strongest ones? One could think that by your own words this would show that you know you dont have a leg to stand on. ;)

Indeed it's power creep to those who didn't need it and a nerf to those who didn't need that

I never dreamed they would find a way to do both at the same time not a fan of giving barbs howling amp either

FestusHood
10-15-2014, 05:04 PM
well, no, because thats really not true is it? I havent seen anyone show that a build thats over 500% healing amp show a net gain on this proposed system. Are you claiming that the folks running 600-900% healing amp currently are getting stronger with this new system? can you elaborate on that?

regardless, even if they did get buffed, I wouldnt care because the system still helps players like myself significantly. the players that dont grind the past lives and try to squeeze in items in every slot they can.

Builds that currently have more than 600% heal amp are extreme outliers. The vast majority of players right now probably run with a total of less than 200%. Any characters who have more than that now have specifically made that a feature of their build. If these changes go in as proposed, having over 200% healing amp will be an afterthought.

GWolfe
10-15-2014, 05:15 PM
I'm happy with the proposed change. Looks like a solid net positive. It simplifies the heal amp system.

Also good move putting hamp into barb trees. I hope this means you will be keeping the class unique (and not too similar to fighters) and give them no or minimal self healing in return for the biggest melee DPS in the game via a buffed rage. I'd love to see group play actually be a competitive playstyle again as oppossed to everything always being BYOH. Hopefully big heal amp for barbs means some nice group synergy with divines.

This.




In your "most fun" times, with a dedicated healer, were you the one playing the dedicated healer?

Personally, I prefer to play melee classes. Always. But not everyone does! Three of my guildies have their main as a healer two of which are actually specced for healing. Why? Because they enjoy it.


I dont claim to be a super/master/expert at game balance, but when every other class except yours can do something like self healing, that sort of makes your class weaker. Normally that would come with signicant power in other areas to compensate, but right now every class is more or less out performing the barb.

If you don't see a problem with that, then maybe you need to reconsider your point of view.



Taking away build diversity is the opposite of what we should do. If you wanna make Barbs able to solo self heal through EEs like a Paladan can then you might as well just keep playing Paladin.
How about you reconsider your point of view? When I fell in love with this game every class had a different role and feel when you played it. I know that it isn't all because of Enhancements ED's helped to kill class diversity, but that doesn't mean they should make it worse by turning Barbs into raging monks.

SilkofDrasnia
10-15-2014, 05:23 PM
They are nerfing massive amp builds
Keeping moderate amp builds on level
Give a massive buff to those with next to no commitment to healing amp.

Honestly though that seems to be a side effect of just changing the system to something that is a bit easier to deal without the fear of crazy multiplicative stacking.

Eh if you read my post that is exactly what I have been saying, I just didn't bother to break it down other than say "all out amp" to avoid debates on what low mod and high tiers start and finish.


I do not think it is a side effect though as it seems to be in tune with other system changes like for example the changes to armor and how prr, mrr and ac works. Now all these changes which seem to follow the same pattern seem to me to indicate they are getting the game ready for something which I do not want to go into as it is off topic.

jtoa
10-15-2014, 05:27 PM
I have a solar phoenix build that will be decimated by the nurf. I have TR'd 3 time just for healing amp. I ground hours and hours to get every single healing amp and vampirism item only to have my healing amp destroyed from 759% down to 500%. sure 500% is still quite a bit but if you ask anyone "hey how would you feel about loosing 250% healing amp without a choice in the matter"?. they WILL be ****ed. especially when so much time and effort was spend to TR and gain all those items and destinies ect.
I don't like it at all. if everyone with very little healing amp is getting a buff, and the people who have made an effort to get a high healing amp are getting screwed, that's just not fair.

Seikojin
10-15-2014, 05:27 PM
This.



Personally, I prefer to play melee classes. Always. But not everyone does! Three of my guildies have their main as a healer two of which are actually specced for healing. Why? Because they enjoy it.





Taking away build diversity is the opposite of what we should do. If you wanna make Barbs able to solo self heal through EEs like a Paladan can then you might as well just keep playing Paladin.
How about you reconsider your point of view? When I fell in love with this game every class had a different role and feel when you played it. I know that it isn't all because of Enhancements ED's helped to kill class diversity, but that doesn't mean they should make it worse by turning Barbs into raging monks.

Then provide good feedback when it is on lamannia. :) I think the idea of recurving it so high end see a decrease, while low ends see an increase is not a bad thing. It just opens up more options to fit somehting like healing amp in.

Violith
10-15-2014, 05:30 PM
Well, consistency is good. So I will also be consistent with my feedback made on the last update's system changes.

Overall, from a player vs player perspective this change is great. Lessening the gap between healing amp builds is definitely a good thing. Well designed change and consistent with other system formulas.

From a player vs monster perspective, again, just like the armor and melee power changes, the numbers are absurd. A completely unnecessary buff, again, to help struggling builds become overpowered, rather than just tone down the problems.

Fact: A 1000 hp paladin with 100+ PRR/MRR and "only" 200% healing amp is virtually unkillable in 99% of content in this game. And that 1% is never going to be from damage alone (more likely from CC, stat drain, antimagic, etc..). There is no reason why a build like this needs more buffs (even if the goal is to help other struggling builds).


On a side note, I just managed to get my Zombarian to level 20 without using a single consumable for healing (Elite streaking solo). I would like to see how you plan to make this build overpowered as well. (please dont, the lengths I'm going to to find challenge in this game are getting to desperate levels)

guessing your zombarian is a multilife with twink gear? kinda hard to build a challange around what a twinked out character can do compared to new players, and yes even new players should be allowed to play elite especially if they're subbed. another difficulty setting would be the easiest solution for that, one above elite made for multilifers.

a difficulty pass would be appreciated as a whole once they finish up making their systems more simple and less breakable. the current set up is rather bad by design anyway. the +1/+2 for hard and elite heroics is alright, although monster AI could be reworked to be better, and some different tactics in elite would help with challange, the change from hard waterworks, to elite waterworks is a good example. on hard even a first life toon wouldnt have too much problems, but with the addition of lightning bolt and such (I know its more of the level of the shaman then a quest design that allows that) but the difference in difficulty is more then the mere extra level normally would allow, still completable but it does force people to rethink their strategy.

and then there is the mess of a +5/+20 for eh/ee which really throws things out of whack since they then needed to give power to actually complete EE on a semi-maxed build, which then after the changes to the battle system as a whole basically made them able to be completed/soloed by even suboptimal builds. so yea. a difficulty pass would be nice after everything is worked out, although there is still some systems that would probably need worked out before then

BananaHat
10-15-2014, 05:32 PM
Here is the actual change for my current build:

Before:
Level 20 healing amp monk with 3 paladin past lives, equipping finger necklace as early as possible and getting old ship buff
[1.15*1.05^6*1.1^3 + .1]*1.1*(1.1*1.2)*1.3*1.25*(1.03*1.03*1.04)*1.1 = 6.16 so 616% healing amp
[Pal. PL * Monk shintao * human H.A. + finger necklace]* old ship buff * DT armor with 10%/20% * 30% such as PDK gloves * Jidz-tetka in fire stance * Twisted purity of essence * Unyielding or Divine crusader

And in case the devs didn't know, the old ship buff and new ship buff work differently. The old one is multiplicative, the new one is additive like the Finger Necklace. Please don't accidentally break something when this update inevitably goes through.

After:
1 + 2*(.15 + .05*6 + .1*3 + .1 + .1 + .1 + .2 + .3 + .25 + .03 + .03 + .04 + .1) = 5 so 500% healing amp

So I'll have about 81% of the healing amp I currently do if I'm in full healing amp mode. More realistically I'll be able to tick over the 400% mark vital to making puny abilities like Fist of Light and Vampirism worth using. Is this a ridiculous nerf? Not really, though it is really really frustrating as I'm just now finally getting back to my full monk life to really wrap up this build and I will be disappointed in not being able to enjoy it for longer. I'll state again as I have before in agreement with others, this build is not super crazy powerful like paladins now are and certain builds will be even more powerful going forward with this healing amp change. This monk build is fine for Epic Hard, but then again, most builds can perform in there pretty well with a competent player. I certainly wasn't soloing Epic Elite like a lot of more heavily armored players are able to do, which will be even easier with these changes.

All that said, I'll agree that this will make the game simpler and more consistent. The consistency is a good thing as not everyone is as enamoured with numbers as I am.

However, I will say that this change mostly hurts flavor monk builds who try to use Fists of Light and Vampirism. Practically everyone else is getting a huge buff. You probably need to tone it down while giving back to specific builds that were actually using this active defense/regeneration fighting style.

What I would propose would be 1 of 2 choices:
1) Have Fists of Light scale with monk level. Grant it +1 to die type for every 5 monk or epic levels. This allows it to scale for monks more than splashes and also continue into the epic levels.
So, when you get it at level 3, it does 1d2 (avg 1.5)
lvl 5 - 1d3 (avg 2)
lvl 10 - 1d4 (avg 2.5)
lvl 15 - 1d5 (avg 3)
lvl 20 - 1d6 (avg 3.5)
lvl 25 (with 20 monk) - 1d7 (avg 4)
lvl 30 (with 20 monk) - 1d8 (avg 4.5)

With the above healing amp changes, that means at lvl 28 currently it would change from 6's or 12's (avg 9 per hit) to getting an average of roughly 20 per hit. Too much? Maybe, but the numbers can be changed to whatever is felt is the appropriate scaling. The ability could not scale into epics, scale slower, or something else to make it feel right. Truthfully, Vampirism provides 4/7's of the active healing portion of my current build (6's, 12's, and 18's: avg 12) while in full-out healing amp mode so buffing Fists of Light is only a partial fix.

As a bonus, this would allow you to be more party friendly (which is the Light Monk's Thing) by providing a larger healing curse for the party melee's to leech off of. I view this as a huge benefit to updating Fists of Light to not be so hard to use effectively.

2) Have Shintao tree provide bonus healing every time you are healed.
So, for each core ability of the Shintao tree, you get an additional point of healing from all sources of healing. Depending on desired scaling, this could be affected by your healing amp, your positive energy spellpower, or your melee power*appropriate scaling. This would allow those to focus on the "tank" tree for monk to get some benefit from one of the monk's defensive abilities Fists of Light while allowing the healing amp to be toned down. I think this option is less party friendly but may be more viable than having Fists of Light scale and not somehow break. The unfortunate part of this fix would be that I can't think of any other mechanics in game that trigger off of being healed, so there might be additional work to implement this. Plus, Shintao really needs something besides "I make Earth Stance awesome" since capstones like Meditation of War don't stack with a lot of other better abilities (Earth: insight bonus to max HP doesn't work with Unyielding Sentinel, Fire: bonus DC's to tactical abilities does not stack with the Spare Hand)

So all that said, I understand the desire for the change, but without some other exchange to help out the very specific builds you are hurting while giving everyone else a massive boon, this sucks the fun out of one of my builds which isn't even a flavor of the month or super overpowered monster build, so I don't really understand what the point is since the point of a game is to have fun.

Robai
10-15-2014, 05:33 PM
Sadly this is not a nerf!
Actually this a big buff to most builds (and a tiny nerf to overpowered builds).

Since in the new system all hamp items (with different values) will stack then I see no point in giving them double the value.
What's the point of increasing the power creep?
Buffing barbarians was a good idea though.




Will the Healing Amp and Repair Amp now show on the character sheet like SP/MP/RP? (YES it should be there)

A character sheet update is not slated for this update. (Though we agree it should be there.)

Sev~

Yes, it should be there.

SilkofDrasnia
10-15-2014, 05:39 PM
guessing your zombarian is a multilife with twink gear? kinda hard to build a challange around what a twinked out character can do compared to new players, and yes even new players should be allowed to play elite especially if they're subbed. another difficulty setting would be the easiest solution for that, one above elite made for multilifers.

a difficulty pass would be appreciated as a whole once they finish up making their systems more simple and less breakable. the current set up is rather bad by design anyway. the +1/+2 for hard and elite heroics is alright, although monster AI could be reworked to be better, and some different tactics in elite would help with challange, the change from hard waterworks, to elite waterworks is a good example. on hard even a first life toon wouldnt have too much problems, but with the addition of lightning bolt and such (I know its more of the level of the shaman then a quest design that allows that) but the difference in difficulty is more then the mere extra level normally would allow, still completable but it does force people to rethink their strategy.

and then there is the mess of a +5/+20 for eh/ee which really throws things out of whack since they then needed to give power to actually complete EE on a semi-maxed build, which then after the changes to the battle system as a whole basically made them able to be completed/soloed by even suboptimal builds. so yea. a difficulty pass would be nice after everything is worked out, although there is still some systems that would probably need worked out before then

I have a problem with the whole difficulty pass idea as it seems every year or so someone complains, no matter from what side of the line, that we need a new pass because xyz to xyz and it just seem to end up with them just going round n round n round.


For example things were fine when we had just "EPIC" level quests but then *whine, cry, tears etc etc* we got EN/EH and EE. More *whine, cry tears* and we have power creep and easing up in EE, now more *whine cry tears* and peeps are proposing YET ANOTHER BLOODY difficulty pass or even level.

Haven't we chased our tails enough as it is? Why not just accept how things are now and lets be original and stop refixing over and bloody over the same thing. I do not want to get into why XYZ would be good or not as we have seen this numerous times in numerous threads so much so it has become one long tired and boring diatribe no matter what side of the line you are on.




Sadly......

Since in the new system all hamp items will stack then I see no point in giving them double the value.
....


Eh no not all items will stack, from what I understand what stacks now will still stack. What stacks now is different values which will become different types.

As to what is the point well take a look at all the recent system changes and then step back and take a minute to think what happens after games usually do changes of this nature.

Tilomere
10-15-2014, 06:18 PM
Can I suggest a different system that would be more versatile for players?

Convert Healing Amplification to an additive spell power that is used on all healing effects (necro, reconstruction, positive, divine, potion) at a ratio of 1 HAMP = 3 Spell Power. Allow different types to stack.

Remove or tweak spell coefficients. Currently, higher level and epic healing abiilties like the Heal Spell or Consecrate-Sacred Ground have coefficients <1 because they are too powerful when multiplied by both large amounts of HAMP and Positive Spell Power.

Now let’s look at an extreme Human/Monk/Paladin hybrid build to see how high we can stack Healing Amplification currently.

Live:
Source Multiplier Product
... Unyielding Sentinel 1.1 897%

How this will effect the max HAMP build:
Source Multiplier Product
... Unyielding Sentinel +20 5.7

Since this is 50% larger at 3 spell power than 2 HAMP, this would result in 855 Spell Power for healing effects, or almost no nerf to HAMP self-healing that is not multiplied by spell power (weaker abilities).

Since this is additive to positive spell power, a 300 positive spell power say renewal SLA stacked with above 855 Spell Power would not result in a nearly 4000 spell power heal like it is on live. Instead it would be 1255, which is more in line with other players for balance. It will be far easier to balance healing spells and effects when they will be between 100% at level 1 to 1255% at max level extreme cases than if it is between 100% and 4000%.

Create yellow augments matching existing spell power for HAMP self healing spell power, and allow it to RNG on gear as a secondary affix. This also makes red slotting devotion or reconstruct on every weapon less mandatory, since it won't literally double to triple the effects of healing abilities.

TLDR: I guess i don't see normalizing healing and removing multipliers especially for classes without positive spell power (barbs) if healing amplification multiplies spell power.

Today we want to discuss healing amplification. Our goal is to adjust it to be additive rather than multiplicative,

JohnWarlock
10-15-2014, 06:32 PM
I'm extremely tired after a very long day at work, so it's possible that in my muddled state I'm getting this wrong, but could someone who can think more coherently than I can at the moment translate what this means to my pure Monk main please?

20% Human, 10% and 20% DT vestments, 30% PDK Gloves, 25% Jidz, 3x Pally PL's, 10% Ship Buff All Tiers of Shintao (can't remember what that equals).

My gut reaction is that Turbine have just bent my main over and shafted it without the courtesy of a reach around, but as I said I'm exhausted and it's possible my mind is translating it poorly.

My main concern is that I use Fists of Light and Vampirism Wraps as primary healing sources and that if it's as bad as I fear they'll now be all but useless. Hoping I'm wrong.

I'm not sure about my math, but it would be:
1.0 base
.4 Human
.2 item 10%
.4 item 20%
.6 item 30%
.5 Jidz
.3 Pally PLs
.2 Ship buffs
.6 Shintao
=======
4.2 Total

Currently:
1.0 base
1.2 Human
1.1 item 10%
1.2 item 20%
1.3 item 30%
1.25 Jidz
1.15 Pally
1.1 Ship
1.3 Shintao
===============
4.232943

Holy losses Batman, you're loosing 0.032943 % healing amp or 3.29 Hit points for every 100 points of healing.

I hope that helps.

Robai
10-15-2014, 06:36 PM
Eh no not all items will stack, from what I understand what stacks now will still stack. What stacks now is different values which will become different types.

As to what is the point well take a look at all the recent system changes and then step back and take a minute to think what happens after games usually do changes of this nature.

Yeah, I meant different values.
For example, 30% will stack with 20% despite the bonus type (I guess the type of the bonus won't be mentioned at all on items).

So if I understand the OP correctly then:
30% + 20% will stack and will give +100 hamp bonus,
30% + 30% won't stack and will give +60 hamp bonus.

My point was that:
30% + 20% should give +50 hamp bonus, not 100,
30% + 30% still shouldn't stack and give +30 hamp bonus, not 60.

I'm talking about bonuses on items, the bonuses from feats/enhancements/EDs/ship should stack ofc, and definitely don't need to double them.

JohnWarlock
10-15-2014, 06:48 PM
Hopefully with the addition of new items, we'll see healing amp added to them, or possibly in different slots.

Now one thing I wish they did was, for it to truly be healing amplification. What I mean healing amplification really means it amplifies any healing the character receives, as opposed to positive amplification, or repair amplification or negative amplification... I mean healing is just how a character heals, despite the type of energy providing the healing. Which in making it universal it would make things a **** of a lot more balanced for all characters, whether they are Warforged, Flesh or undead.

Yellowmace
10-15-2014, 06:48 PM
Seriously, this entire proposal is just LAZY DESIGN

Sebastrd
10-15-2014, 07:02 PM
Do agree with Dev's - this is in the spirit of not nerfing but buffing weaker classes while fixing a major exploit (HAMPster builds)

Where do you come up with this stuff? I've never even heard of a "HAMPster" build, and I run with some of the best players on my server. If you keep using the word "exploit", especially calling it a major one, it begins to lose its meaning.

Using what is available in the system is not an "exploit", and especially something so benign as monster healing amp doesn't even rate.

Violith
10-15-2014, 07:13 PM
Hopefully with the addition of new items, we'll see healing amp added to them, or possibly in different slots.

Now one thing I wish they did was, for it to truly be healing amplification. What I mean healing amplification really means it amplifies any healing the character receives, as opposed to positive amplification, or repair amplification or negative amplification... I mean healing is just how a character heals, despite the type of energy providing the healing. Which in making it universal it would make things a **** of a lot more balanced for all characters, whether they are Warforged, Flesh or undead.

could get behind this, but ultimately it'd be broken for the forged races. positive or repair? pure positive would allow them to get basically full benefit (only about -50rating compared to a fleshy, which can be about 350%) as well as repair line (30%+, more if there is more items/augments to get it eventually), and full repair would cause them to take a hit to positive healing (only being able to get slightly over 100% with destiny abilitys (unless those too become universal). yet get astronomical healing from reconstruct/repair)

Impaqt
10-15-2014, 07:15 PM
Builds that currently have more than 600% heal amp are extreme outliers. The vast majority of players right now probably run with a total of less than 200%. Any characters who have more than that now have specifically made that a feature of their build. If these changes go in as proposed, having over 200% healing amp will be an afterthought.

yes, thats what makes this such a good system.

Janitorman
10-15-2014, 07:30 PM
yes, thats what makes this such a good system.

Agree to disagree then. Imo this just seems to be funneling everyone to an average value that will be easy to obtain with no serious investment required, similar to prr and other systems.

On another note would like to hear about future plans for healing amp gear. If items with multiple stacking elements of heal amp become available I gain slot consolidation. If higher tiers emerge to scale with higher lvl loot and enough different bonuses types that stack become available (i.e. insight, profane, enh, luck, alchemical, etc.) I could see some potential upside for heal amp builds to regear and adapt and maybe eventually achieve similar values as old system.

Krell
10-15-2014, 07:32 PM
Greetings,

[snip]

Sev~

I like the approach. A little boost for characters at the low end that could make some builds more viable, about even in the mid-range, and a little decrease for builds at the extreme high end. I also like that this will be easier to figure out and will open the door to more item and enhancement effects.

Tuffgar
10-15-2014, 09:05 PM
As someone who's been an on and off player for over five years, I like seeing changes like this that provide a small boost to players like myself that aren't all that interested in super high-end play. But at the same time I can see the points those high end players are making. To them, they already dominating the highest difficulties with he game has to offer, and this change to healing amp is just going to make it even easier.

What I'd like to point out, however, is that the more changes that turbine makes to the fundamental mechanics of the game to bring it into a more standardized overall system, the easier it will be to create or modify the content to better suit all ranges of player skill. In the short term this means the game might get a little easier(and wreck a small percentage of VERY specialized builds). But the in the long term I think it will better for the overall health of the game.

SilkofDrasnia
10-15-2014, 09:17 PM
Yeah, I meant different values.
For example, 30% will stack with 20% despite the bonus type (I guess the type of the bonus won't be mentioned at all on items).

So if I understand the OP correctly then:
30% + 20% will stack and will give +100 hamp bonus,
30% + 30% won't stack and will give +60 hamp bonus.

My point was that:
30% + 20% should give +50 hamp bonus, not 100,
30% + 30% still shouldn't stack and give +30 hamp bonus, not 60.

I'm talking about bonuses on items, the bonuses from feats/enhancements/EDs/ship should stack ofc, and definitely don't need to double them.

Items will have types, my guess is all 30% items will be type "x", 20% type "y" and 10% type "z". So in essence items will stack just like they do now except in a additive manner instead of multiplicative manner. From Sevs statements I am pretty sure the type will be indicated on the items.

The reason for doubling in the new system is that it would result in quite a huge nerf compared to what we had now. I also suspect they will not add new huge value hamp items.

For example the 10, 20 and 30% items would be 20,40 and 60 items, if they didn't double them it would result in items not worth wearing.

Like has been said it will buff low amount of hamp mid amount of hamp stay about the same and nerf maxed out hamp builds which seem to be the goal they have, I also suppose they will be making barb be able to get high amp really easy with just enhancements.

Personally I think hamp should stay like it is and they should find some other way to make barbs better and just reintroduce some hamp items like already exists, 10 20 and 30% items, as there is no need for higher hamp items but it is not going to happen.

Is it a bit of power creep sure but not as much as the last changes they did to armor and prr, mrr etc.

Frankly if they don't double hamp values they might as well just remove hamp completely cuase that is how useless it will be for most people.

Archangel666
10-15-2014, 09:40 PM
I'm not sure about my math, but it would be:
1.0 base
.4 Human
.2 item 10%
.4 item 20%
.6 item 30%
.5 Jidz
.3 Pally PLs
.2 Ship buffs
.6 Shintao
=======
4.2 Total

Currently:
1.0 base
1.2 Human
1.1 item 10%
1.2 item 20%
1.3 item 30%
1.25 Jidz
1.15 Pally
1.1 Ship
1.3 Shintao
===============
4.232943

Holy losses Batman, you're loosing 0.032943 % healing amp or 3.29 Hit points for every 100 points of healing.

I hope that helps.

I appreciate the effort you put into this, but I must admit, that this was answered much earlier in the thread.

Thanks for the effort though. :)

ravenduke
10-15-2014, 10:53 PM
~ This system would allow us to start putting stacking Healing Amp on high level items again.



That's not needed, and "more healing items" is hardly a pressing issue.




~ Barbarians would be getting sources of Healing Amplification in their trees.

Sev~

Don't a lot of barb abilities depend on being below 75 and 50% health? How will heal amp help that?



I have to agree with others, if it isn't broke don't fix it. This is as others have called it just lazy design, and it will do more damage then fix any problem that only exist in the minds of DEVs who apparently are stumped on what they can add to the Barb trees.

This had better just be in the consideration stages, because it is one of the most foolish and short-sighted development proposals Turbine has come up with yet.

You should be ashamed to even suggest something as silly and unneeded as this.

Qhualor
10-15-2014, 11:51 PM
Don't a lot of barb abilities depend on being below 75 and 50% health? How will heal amp help that?



I have to agree with others, if it isn't broke don't fix it. This is as others have called it just lazy design, and it will do more damage then fix any problem that only exist in the minds of DEVs who apparently are stumped on what they can add to the Barb trees.

This had better just be in the consideration stages, because it is one of the most foolish and short-sighted development proposals Turbine has come up with yet.

You should be ashamed to even suggest something as silly and unneeded as this.

I wouldn't say a lot, but there are a few enhancements that grant you additional dps for not being at 100% health and FB is about losing hp for dps.

someone earlier in this thread posted an example that was not exactly identical to my barbarian, but close enough. if the math is correct, a CSW pot will give my barb ~10 more hp per chug and that's not including the additional heal amp that is eventually making its way into the barb trees that we don't know about yet. this change as of right now will not make things better for barb healing survivability. im really hoping that Sev has something up his sleeve and surprise us all with something really good or ill be very disappointed.

the reason for the change is said because adding more multiplicative heal amp is deemed too powerful. making it additive I guess makes it so they can add more heal amp on gear and probably include it as augments. I don't know if they realize it or not, but it takes specific building to get the highest heal amp and a lot of builds wont have more than half of whats available to them. the power lies more from the feats, enhancements, EDs etc that classes like FVS, Clerics, Paladins, Rangers have access to and are able to get that make it so they can heal for hundreds and thousands, even on a gimp heal amp build. over healing is common.

ravenduke
10-16-2014, 12:21 AM
It was only deemed "too powerful" when they needed something to throw at Barbs.

There is no examples of how Healing is 'hurting" the game, and as for characters healing hundreds or thousands of points? so what? they can't heal more then they have. All the supposed "over healing" is wasted, not applied, meaning it does nothing, I repeat nothing to game balance. Whereas "nerfing" (Sev's own words) healing will cause vast damage to the game to reign in what he and others have said was at best 2% of characters.

It's not just a foolish and short-sided way to try to "help" the Barb trees, it is also incredibly lazy and short sighted, it is breaking two things in hopes of "fixing" something that is not broken. Especially in light of all the Many problems that need to be fixed that Sev and others have said is on their agenda.

I find this entire concept infuriating, and mind you I don't even have a dog in the fight, I don't have any characters with hamp built in to them. But even without any of my characters benefitting from the current system I am wise enough to see how this lazy waste of resources of a struggling company will only hurt the player base and give us Barbs that may have some healing? whoopee no one plays a barb because they are such great healers, this is just so very stupid and insulting.

Hey Turbine, Sev? do your jobs, take some time to think of some cool and interesting ways to improve and buff the Barbarian play-experience with some proper research and forethought not this kind of foolish lazy short sighted nonsense, because no one, has been complaining about the hamp, they have been complaining about the lack of hamp items, not hamp itself.

Use your time and resources to think of exciting and fun ways for people to play Barariran and stop trying to invent a "healing build problem" just to excuse up this lame and half-baked idea for Barbs. Open up some of the D&D games, books and novels, there you will see vast amounts of material about Barbarians that can add to this game rather then breaking what we are already quite happily playing.

Klixen
10-16-2014, 12:51 AM
Disliking the item effects stacking as a rule rather as an exception. If you must, then make Exceptional Hamp effects that stack with normal enhancement effects.

Rull
10-16-2014, 02:50 AM
When you say the healing amp items will continue to 'stack', what do you mean?
I know of 4 types of stacking.

When you look at wearing a +40 (old 20%), a +60 (old 30%) and another +60 (old 30%) item:
A. 40 + 60 + 60 = 160 (like untyped)
B. 40 + one(60, 60) = 100 (like old dodge)
C. max(40, 60, 60) = 60 (like spellpower, strength, etc.)
D. 1.4 * 1.6 = 114 (like old healing amp)

I know it's not D since that is what you are changing. From you answers I understand it won't be C either.
But is it A or B?

Or will be like C but are you giving all old 10% items a different type, all old 20% items a type, and all old 30% yet another type?

Zoda
10-16-2014, 04:23 AM
So basically this a nerf to extreme heal amp builds (which are not very popular or powerful to begin with) and a buff to almost every other build.


Right now my pally has an extreme high healamp of ~320% (3x5% past lives, 10% human, 10% crusader, 3x10% KOTC, 10% ship buff, 30% + 20% gear = 1.05^3*1.1^6*1.3*1.2). If all the sources get doubled and implemented to the new formula that'd be 350%.

It is a buff to every build.

I never understood the term healamp build...

Eth
10-16-2014, 04:48 AM
because no one, has been complaining about the hamp, they have been complaining about the lack of hamp items, not hamp itself.

While this is absolutely correct, it simply may be related to each other.
As in - they can't make new items, because they don't work with the old code as expected.

patang01
10-16-2014, 04:57 AM
I think that generalization is flawed insofar as the reason that people have moved to self sufficient builds is the fact that there is little incentive to play a build that is not. Which hurts game play and raiding in particular imo. The most fun I have playing this game is when there is a dedicated healer and those are a rarity due to lack of need, and I know quite a few players that still like to fill the healing role.

Ok Now let's take a look at my paly vs barb base damage, just to keep it simple. I used the buffs that I have running 90% of the time I'm in quest for both classes. Barb has a 5.3[1d12] +82 with 55 melee power in Fury. So his base damage is roughly 135-226 As for the Paladin his is 6.3[1d12] +85 with 69 melee power in Crusader. Making his 154-272. And as of this latest update Frenzy/ Death Frenzy does not come close to the bonus light damage paly gets. No real need to get into destinies either. I will allow that the Paly has completionest feat as well as epic completionest but that's still negligible compared to how much weaker barbs are.

I don't think that's particularly true. Much of the self sufficient movement was created as a reaction to the fact that so few wanted to play dedicated heals. The argument was in many cases that the bluebar divines didn't want to be someones SP drip, but use it for their own big explosions. There might be a few that like to heal and no one is saying no to anyone like that - but I remember waiting for an hour or so for a raid to start because of waiting for a healer. And the few times we got one it was usually someone saying that they're not a healer, but a battlecleric or somesort derivative.

This was not a onesided move where the self sufficient somehow drove out the few healers we had around just because; this was a reaction to the fact that few really wanted to be someones sugar daddy for HP sponging.

Stoner81
10-16-2014, 06:04 AM
Standardizing systems so that they all work in a similar fashion is a good thing in my opinion, the game is incredibly complex and having different systems work in different ways does not help things at all. If they current system for healing amp means that that the devs won't introduce heal amp augments then change the system! Many players have been crying out for heal amp augments for years now and the fact that at end game you only have a few select pieces of kit to get it from is beyond crazy!

Changing the heal amp system now so they can introduce new items and augments has to be a good thing!

Stoner81.

Dramentia
10-16-2014, 08:11 AM
Just give pale master's the harm spell already! And stop nerfing by not allowing heal as a skill type for increased neg energy. And then you screw them again by having very few ways to get light resistance items, but you got a **** ton of death block items. Not fair paladins, and clerics should have something to fear from the PM. "Strike for 10d10 light damage" where the **** is the 10d10 negative damage? And what the **** is up with every **** creature having death block. get yer arse kicked by giants cause u cant use your neg spells.

Saekee
10-16-2014, 08:41 AM
I wouldn't change healing amp. Its weird complicated nature is a joy to vets--understanding bizarre mechanics make people proud of their lollypops.

Barbs should get healing when they kill. I would imitate the mechanic of Henshin's SCEWL. It would be like a joy-of-killing burst. Its healing amount should be based on the CR of the mob. A weak one gives little satisfaction (healing). The barb would heal more if his or her hp are low. The mob dies--Rooar want to kill more!!!! I want to see the Hit points of barbs in wild fluctuation with this.

bennyson
10-16-2014, 09:02 AM
Barbs should get healing when they kill.

So...cannibalizing their enemies?

That sounds...Barbaric!

Bridge_Dweller
10-16-2014, 09:05 AM
So...cannibalizing their enemies?

That sounds...Barbaric!

I like it.

I still want an Iconc dwarf barbarian that has a halfling bard as a pet for buffs and heals, it would be perfect.

Indianwiz
10-16-2014, 09:11 AM
Just give pale master's the harm spell already! And stop nerfing by not allowing heal as a skill type for increased neg energy. And then you screw them again by having very few ways to get light resistance items, but you got a **** ton of death block items. Not fair paladins, and clerics should have something to fear from the PM. "Strike for 10d10 light damage" where the **** is the 10d10 negative damage? And what the **** is up with every **** creature having death block. get yer arse kicked by giants cause u cant use your neg spells.

You are wasting your energy. Sev is a barbarian / fighter designer. Only person who actively worked on Wizards was MadFloyd and he is gone long time back.

Bridge_Dweller
10-16-2014, 09:30 AM
You are wasting your energy. Sev is a barbarian / fighter designer. Only person who actively worked on Wizards was MadFloyd and he is gone long time back.

please explain to me how wizards need help.

Saekee
10-16-2014, 09:34 AM
So...cannibalizing their enemies?

That sounds...Barbaric!

well said!

ravenduke
10-16-2014, 09:46 AM
While this is absolutely correct, it simply may be related to each other.
As in - they can't make new items, because they don't work with the old code as expected.

Fine. better no new items then breaking the current hamp set-up just because they can't think of something better to give Barbs, it's sloppy and lazy design and for those of us who have been playing for 8 years... we have seen this before.

Devs, stop it, before you do more damage trying to short-cut your way to Barbarian buffing.

ravenduke
10-16-2014, 09:48 AM
You are wasting your energy. Sev is a barbarian / fighter designer. Only person who actively worked on Wizards was MadFloyd and he is gone long time back.

Well if he is a Barbarian designer he had best start doing some "design" research on building them up instead of taking the easy way out and tearing something that works down because it's the Dev easy button answer.

Vargouille
10-16-2014, 10:59 AM
On other news, since every existing item will have a new bonus type to stack, what will they be? 10% becomes enchantment bonus, 20% equipment bonus, 30% exceptional bonus, jidz stay insight, fleshmaker profane bonus?

30%, 20% and 10% items will be three different types.

What the "type" will actually be called isn't important only that diff types only will stack.

When you say the healing amp items will continue to 'stack', what do you mean?
(...)
Or will be like C but are you giving all old 10% items a different type, all old 20% items a type, and all old 30% yet another type?

This is the general direction we're thinking of going in for item changes. We haven't gotten to the point of determining exactly what the bonus types would be, but we'd tentatively expect all current +10% items to be one bonus type, a different bonus for 20%, and a third bonus type for 30%.

This also makes it easier to introduce new items or augments in understandable ways. We can introduce a 15% bonus that's the same as the 10% bonus, resulting in an increase that (1) is only 5% more (2) doesn't stack with everything (the way it would be expected to work, as current item values are that way).

Note that if we added a new stacking 15% and 25% sources (items or otherwise), under the current system those with 897% healing amp would increase to 1289%. One of the major benefits is that we can add new sources without the numbers exploding like that on the far end (which also means we can add in bonuses benefiting the lower end).

Rubix
10-16-2014, 11:05 AM
I am a big supporter of unifying the various systems, mostly because I am forever trying to figure what-stacks-with-what-again, and inevitably just canning certain things only because I end up not being able to fit all the stackable parts in. So... from my side: I welcome this.

On the topic of healing: are there plans to work Healing Lore into these changes as well?

Rull
10-16-2014, 11:16 AM
Note that if we added a new stacking 15% and 25% sources (items or otherwise), under the current system those with 897% healing amp would increase to 1289%. One of the major benefits is that we can add new sources without the numbers exploding like that on the far end (which also means we can add in bonuses benefiting the lower end).

... which would only have been a 44% increase for him. So in the old system those items would be just a valuable to him as they would be to some other guy who had 100% healing and with those items would increases to 144%

I think you are slightly underestimating diminishing returns.
But I don't really mind, I'll figure out the optimum in the new system just like I did in the old system. Thiis isn't going to make or break the game.
And hooray for more clarity.

Merlin-ator
10-16-2014, 11:29 AM
As long as stacking doesn't change, I'm behind this. HAmp will be far easier to calculate now that everything is on simpler math.

That being said, if stacking gets changed to the more common model, all the numbers should go up by a good 10-15% at least. A lot of people are going to be very, very angry about their green steel as well.

Krelar
10-16-2014, 11:36 AM
This is the general direction we're thinking of going in for item changes. We haven't gotten to the point of determining exactly what the bonus types would be, but we'd tentatively expect all current +10% items to be one bonus type, a different bonus for 20%, and a third bonus type for 30%.

This also makes it easier to introduce new items or augments in understandable ways. We can introduce a 15% bonus that's the same as the 10% bonus, resulting in an increase that (1) is only 5% more (2) doesn't stack with everything (the way it would be expected to work, as current item values are that way).

Note that if we added a new stacking 15% and 25% sources (items or otherwise), under the current system those with 897% healing amp would increase to 1289%. One of the major benefits is that we can add new sources without the numbers exploding like that on the far end (which also means we can add in bonuses benefiting the lower end).

Can I suggest that if you are going the route of having 3 different types for equipment you at least stick with existing names so have enhancement bonus, insightful bonus and exceptional (or maybe competence) bonus rather than introducing new names for bonus types.

Alternatively instead of messing with different bonus types make equipment non stacking, but in addition to doubling the values add an addition 10 or 15 to epic level items so 30% on an epic item would become 70 or 75 under the new system.

SilkofDrasnia
10-16-2014, 11:53 AM
This is the general direction we're thinking of going in for item changes. We haven't gotten to the point of determining exactly what the bonus types would be, but we'd tentatively expect all current +10% items to be one bonus type, a different bonus for 20%, and a third bonus type for 30%.

This also makes it easier to introduce new items or augments in understandable ways. We can introduce a 15% bonus that's the same as the 10% bonus, resulting in an increase that (1) is only 5% more (2) doesn't stack with everything (the way it would be expected to work, as current item values are that way).

Note that if we added a new stacking 15% and 25% sources (items or otherwise), under the current system those with 897% healing amp would increase to 1289%. One of the major benefits is that we can add new sources without the numbers exploding like that on the far end (which also means we can add in bonuses benefiting the lower end).



Can I suggest that if you are going the route of having 3 different types for equipment you at least stick with existing names so have enhancement bonus, insightful bonus and exceptional (or maybe competence) bonus rather than introducing new names for bonus types.

Alternatively instead of messing with different bonus types make equipment non stacking, but in addition to doubling the values add an addition 10 or 15 to epic level items so 30% on an epic item would become 70 or 75 under the new system.

Alternately why add in 15 and 25% items? They are not needed and will further in flame the peeps saying the buff makes the game too easy.

Also making it non stacking in favor of epic items being 70 or 75 makes it too easy to slot gear wise which in my opinion is a mistake. Leave it stacking and taking a couple gear slots instead of one, also make augments non stacking or the same type.

So you get a 40 augment(old 20%) make it the same type as a 40 hamp item, same for the 60 augment/item etc. This way you can use it in augment slots for more gear variation without it being more power creep.

I would also say make it a colorless slot thing as there is not much selection in there compared to the other slots.

FestusHood
10-16-2014, 12:16 PM
Right now my pally has an extreme high healamp of ~320% (3x5% past lives, 10% human, 10% crusader, 3x10% KOTC, 10% ship buff, 30% + 20% gear = 1.05^3*1.1^6*1.3*1.2). If all the sources get doubled and implemented to the new formula that'd be 350%.

It is a buff to every build.

I never understood the term healamp build...

The extreme heal amp builds are pretty much all monks. It's usually done to make what are basically negligent sources of healing significant. If monks had the cure serious wounds spell, they probably wouldn't bother.

Rull
10-16-2014, 12:29 PM
... which would only have been a 44% increase for him. So in the old system those items would be just a valuable to him as they would be to some other guy who had 100% healing and with those items would increases to 144%

To go into more depth about this:

I think you are doing the right things for the wrong reasons.

The thing about -insert random healing amp item- was never that it was equally good on an amptank as it was on a toon that had no healing amp yet (which is what you keep arguing now)...

But it was that it was equally good on a level5 as it was on a level28.
Which in itself wouldn't have been a problem if you were careful with item design.
If, say, 30% amp is worth a slot by itself, it's still worth a slot by itself on 28 still. It doesn't need to scale up to 40% or get tons of other benefits, that's just not how percentages work (this is the reason you saw 28's still wear a lvl18 tod ring while all their other gear did get replaced.

Correct power level would have been:

lvl5
30% amp item with nothing else
20% amp item with a small bonus like STR 2
resist 3 item with 10% amp thrown in

lvl15
30% amp item with nothing else
20% amp item with a small bonus like STR 5
resist 5 item with 10% amp thrown in

lvl25
30% amp item with nothing else
20% amp item with a small bonus like STR 8
STR 8 / resist 7 / vitality 40 item with 10% amp thrown in


If the items would have been made like this they would be a choice; other items would be equally good and interesting tradeoff situations would have occurred. You could theoretically even have made them stack, multiplicative, with themselves of equal value, and no real balance would have been broken because sacrificing an item slot to receive more healing relative to what you already got is just that; it's either worth it or it's not.

But you stopped making 10% and 20% items and only made 30%'s, which usually had good other bonuses also, changing the question from 'do i want it or not' into just 'where do i put it'.
The fact that amp items were too good made it so necessary for them to be unique. (just like the problem you are facing now with SWF and TWF feats stacking on wolfs. The connection to the feat investment is gone, and without that as tradeoff, they definitely need to be unique)

With that uniqueness inevitably came the artifact that 20% amp items got in fact better than 30% amp items and EN wall of woods were better than EE's.


However... I believe what you will be doing now will work fine as well.
And items aside, it does fit in better with the enhancement system (which by their nature should not scale as good, because the amount of AP you get also scales).

If you continue with the current plan I'd certainly welcome that change!

Consider using the occasion for a nerf to human healing amp while you are at it, just like the 10%/20%/30%, the +20/+40/+60 is overpowered. Human are outshining every other fleshy race.

With 20/40/60 it will be an 'absolute must-have' for amp-light builds and a 'good option' for already amp-heavy builds
With 15/30/45 it's more like a 'very good option' for amp-light builds and a 'nice-to-have' for already amp-heavy.

FestusHood
10-16-2014, 12:32 PM
... which would only have been a 44% increase for him. So in the old system those items would be just a valuable to him as they would be to some other guy who had 100% healing and with those items would increases to 144%

I think you are slightly underestimating diminishing returns.
But I don't really mind, I'll figure out the optimum in the new system just like I did in the old system. Thiis isn't going to make or break the game.
Ans hooray for more clarity.

Compounding is the opposite of diminishing returns. Increasing an already huge number by 44% is a whole different thing than going from basically nothing to 44%.

Violith
10-16-2014, 12:34 PM
Alternately why add in 15 and 25% items? They are not needed and will further in flame the peeps saying the buff makes the game too easy.

Also making it non stacking in favor of epic items being 70 or 75 makes it too easy to slot gear wise which in my opinion is a mistake. Leave it stacking and taking a couple gear slots instead of one, also make augment non stacking or the same type.

So you get a 40 augment(old 20%) make it the same type as a 40 hamp item, same for the 60 augment etc. This way you can use it in augment slots for more gear variation without being more power creep.

I would also say make it a colorless slot thing as there is not much selection in there compared to the other slots.
from what the dev just stated, seems others and I was right in that the current 10/20/30% items will be typed differently, thus continue to stack and doubled and set into a rateing formula similiar to PRR, so there is diminishing returns.

also, if they add hamp augments the augments of each rating shouldnt be tied to a type. but rather have an augment of each rating for each type. (thus the current 10/20/30% items, will become a rating of 20 (x) /40 (y) /60 (z), and they'd be able to include other items/augments of lesser character levels like 10(level 3) /15(level 6)/20(lvl 12)/30(level 15)/40(level 12-13(raid) -18)/60(lvl 20+) for each type of X and Y, and Z. (same with every other item systems, x/y/z easily can be equipment/compentence/exceptional/etc.

currently there is only 3-4 types that would be made, the 3 from current gear, and insightful (from jidz), and depending on how high they allow each type to go (I'd say at most a rating of 60 no matter what the type, since there is currently a 30% item in the new raid, and thats supposedly going to be the level cap for awhile.

currently if they go through with as planned, the items alone would increase hamp by 1.2-1.7 (120%-170%) at level 20+ for a rating item of 20/40/60, thus even if they allow each type to reach a max rating of 60, it'd only be 1.8-2.4 (180%-240%) at level 20+ (3 types - +insightful) from 60/60/60/(60) items. alot better scaling and easier to keep it in check, while also being able to let lower levels benefit from it if they go with the above numbers. could even go and have the different amount of each type stagger at levels, thus say type X is 3 levels higher then type Y for the same # thus pushing back the total amount able to be gotten. etc.

not saying thats how they are going to do it, but they could and it wouldnt be able to get out of hand compared to how it is now.

FestusHood
10-16-2014, 12:44 PM
This is the general direction we're thinking of going in for item changes. We haven't gotten to the point of determining exactly what the bonus types would be, but we'd tentatively expect all current +10% items to be one bonus type, a different bonus for 20%, and a third bonus type for 30%.

This also makes it easier to introduce new items or augments in understandable ways. We can introduce a 15% bonus that's the same as the 10% bonus, resulting in an increase that (1) is only 5% more (2) doesn't stack with everything (the way it would be expected to work, as current item values are that way).

Note that if we added a new stacking 15% and 25% sources (items or otherwise), under the current system those with 897% healing amp would increase to 1289%. One of the major benefits is that we can add new sources without the numbers exploding like that on the far end (which also means we can add in bonuses benefiting the lower end).

Reading this, my first thought is that you plan to introduce healing amp augments which stack with everything but themselves. The values will be more or less like the elemental resistance augments, starting with 5% at level 4, increasing in 5% increments every four levels up to 35% at level 28.

That a pretty good guess?

CaptainSpacePony
10-16-2014, 01:25 PM
It was only deemed "too powerful" when they needed something to throw at Barbs.

There is no examples of how Healing is 'hurting" the game, and as for characters healing hundreds or thousands of points? so what? they can't heal more then they have. All the supposed "over healing" is wasted, not applied, meaning it does nothing, I repeat nothing to game balance. Whereas "nerfing" (Sev's own words) healing will cause vast damage to the game to reign in what he and others have said was at best 2% of characters.

It's not just a foolish and short-sided way to try to "help" the Barb trees, it is also incredibly lazy and short sighted, it is breaking two things in hopes of "fixing" something that is not broken. Especially in light of all the Many problems that need to be fixed that Sev and others have said is on their agenda.

I find this entire concept infuriating, and mind you I don't even have a dog in the fight, I don't have any characters with hamp built in to them. But even without any of my characters benefitting from the current system I am wise enough to see how this lazy waste of resources of a struggling company will only hurt the player base and give us Barbs that may have some healing? whoopee no one plays a barb because they are such great healers, this is just so very stupid and insulting.

Hey Turbine, Sev? do your jobs, take some time to think of some cool and interesting ways to improve and buff the Barbarian play-experience with some proper research and forethought not this kind of foolish lazy short sighted nonsense, because no one, has been complaining about the hamp, they have been complaining about the lack of hamp items, not hamp itself.

Use your time and resources to think of exciting and fun ways for people to play Barariran and stop trying to invent a "healing build problem" just to excuse up this lame and half-baked idea for Barbs. Open up some of the D&D games, books and novels, there you will see vast amounts of material about Barbarians that can add to this game rather then breaking what we are already quite happily playing.

You are just wrong on a couple points.
-No one's complaining? I have complained for years--most recently here https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/449837-I-would-like-to-see-Heal-Amp-fixed
-You feel it's lazy and shortsighted to make this change? I argued in the above thread the exact opposite

Most of your other points are opinions, which I strongly disagree with.

CaptainSpacePony
10-16-2014, 01:30 PM
This is the general direction we're thinking of going in for item changes. We haven't gotten to the point of determining exactly what the bonus types would be, but we'd tentatively expect all current +10% items to be one bonus type, a different bonus for 20%, and a third bonus type for 30%.


This sounds like an effort to appease the Doomsayers that has no sound basis in flavor, design, or function.

I personally believe this is an unnecessary compromise--Doomsayers scream Doom before every change and often embrace it after getting to use it (EDs, enhancements, dodge, PRR, the list goes on), but if that's as much intestinal fortitude that you can bring to this issue, I can accept that.

Violith
10-16-2014, 01:36 PM
I am a big supporter of unifying the various systems, mostly because I am forever trying to figure what-stacks-with-what-again, and inevitably just canning certain things only because I end up not being able to fit all the stackable parts in. So... from my side: I welcome this.

On the topic of healing: are there plans to work Healing Lore into these changes as well?

healing lore is a % to crit with a spell/ability, ... how does that fall into healing amp category? Healing amp is the amount of incoming healing is increased, no matter what the source. healing lore therefor has no connection to it. if your talking abut the order and if you could use healing lore as a chance for increased chance of healing amp, then no and I dont see a need to even suggest such a double dip in healing. A spell/ability would've already critted before healing amp is taken into consideration, no reason to have a chance to amp it up again.

ravenduke
10-16-2014, 01:47 PM
This sounds like an effort to appease the Doomsayers that has no sound basis in flavor, design, or function.

I personally believe this is an unnecessary compromise--Doomsayers scream Doom before every change and often embrace it after getting to use it (EDs, enhancements, dodge, PRR, the list goes on), but if that's as much intestinal fortitude that you can bring to this issue, I can accept that.


I'm no doom sayer, I just hate Turbine's very limited resources to be wasted on a pointless issue like this when there are so many other "known Issues" that need the attention.

This is a Classic "make something new" by breaking something old tactic, it's lazy, short-sighted and NOT NEEDED. What is needed are actual Barbarian trees and not someone trying to play 3 card monty with one of the few working aspects of the game.

Let me be clear, no one has complained about "heal builds" no one, they complain about everything else that is even a little OP and never stop, but the NERF brigade has not been calling for a hamp revamp.. EVER! Sev is trying to imply that there is some problem with Hamp to justify this lame cookie toss to the Barb trees, and it's nothing the Barbs were looking for. Hamp?? try the monks for that, not the Barbs, and stop treating us like we are idiots while you're at it.

You came up with some hamp stuff for barbs and stopped thinking, and then conflated this supposed "Hamp issue" to justify breaking it so you could give it to Barbs.

STOP IT.

Ovrad
10-16-2014, 01:55 PM
This is the general direction we're thinking of going in for item changes. We haven't gotten to the point of determining exactly what the bonus types would be, but we'd tentatively expect all current +10% items to be one bonus type, a different bonus for 20%, and a third bonus type for 30%.

This also makes it easier to introduce new items or augments in understandable ways. We can introduce a 15% bonus that's the same as the 10% bonus, resulting in an increase that (1) is only 5% more (2) doesn't stack with everything (the way it would be expected to work, as current item values are that way).

Note that if we added a new stacking 15% and 25% sources (items or otherwise), under the current system those with 897% healing amp would increase to 1289%. One of the major benefits is that we can add new sources without the numbers exploding like that on the far end (which also means we can add in bonuses benefiting the lower end).

This sounds like it will be a clusterf- I mean, a chaotic mess. Having all item bonuses named differently will be way more confusing than the current system.

May I suggest keeping the bonus simple:
- Current 10% should be called Tier 1 bonus.
- Current 20% should be called Tier 2 bonus.
- Current 30% should be called Tier 3 bonus.

That way, you can keep insight for Jidz and still have room to boost those bonuses tiers individually, without coming out with confusing bonuses types. Just add the text that says that the tiers stack with each other other but not itself.

In future loot, if you diversify the bonuses ranges, tier 1 could be available in 5%/10%/15%, tier 2 15%/20%/25% and tier 3 25%/30%/35%, leaving it very clear what stacks and what doesn't. You can add an augment bonuses as well.

ravenduke
10-16-2014, 01:55 PM
This is the general direction we're thinking of going in for item changes. We haven't gotten to the point of determining exactly what the bonus types would be, but we'd tentatively expect all current +10% items to be one bonus type, a different bonus for 20%, and a third bonus type for 30%.

This also makes it easier to introduce new items or augments in understandable ways. We can introduce a 15% bonus that's the same as the 10% bonus, resulting in an increase that (1) is only 5% more (2) doesn't stack with everything (the way it would be expected to work, as current item values are that way).

Note that if we added a new stacking 15% and 25% sources (items or otherwise), under the current system those with 897% healing amp would increase to 1289%. One of the major benefits is that we can add new sources without the numbers exploding like that on the far end (which also means we can add in bonuses benefiting the lower end).


STOP THIS NOW.

You have plenty of things that actually need to be fixed, and limited manpower and money to do it. There is NOT a hamp problem in the game, it doesn't matter if a player has 100%-1289% hamp. I repeat IT DOES NOT MATTER! they can only heal as many hit points as they have.

Personally I couldn't give a sweet tooty about hamp, I have never built a hamp character, but I do know that those people who do are not breaking or even changing the game in any way.

If you can't introduce hamp items without changing the system? simple answer: DON'T MAKE NEW ITEMS.

Instead spend the time you will be WASTING on this non-problem on something that needs it, may I suggest the "known issues" list, or perhaps the ranger trees, or any other number of things. Because for you lot, to burn any juice on this pointless non-issue while all those remain BROKEN is at best foolish and at worse intellectually dishonest.

STOP IT, NOW.

CaptainSpacePony
10-16-2014, 01:59 PM
Let me be clear, no one has complained about "heal builds" no one, they complain about everything else that is even a little OP and never stop, but the NERF brigade has not been calling for a hamp revamp.. EVER! Sev is trying to imply that there is some problem with Hamp to justify this lame cookie toss to the Barb trees, and it's nothing the Barbs were looking for. Hamp?? try the monks for that, not the Barbs, and stop treating us like we are idiots while you're at it.



I agree, that to the best of my knowledge, there is no real complaint about "heal builds". My complaint, and what I suspect is at the root of Turbine's thoughts on this one, is that HAmp, as it currently is implemented, is a broken, dead-end system.

ravenduke
10-16-2014, 02:00 PM
You are just wrong on a couple points.
-No one's complaining? I have complained for years--most recently here https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/449837-I-would-like-to-see-Heal-Amp-fixed
-You feel it's lazy and shortsighted to make this change? I argued in the above thread the exact opposite

Most of your other points are opinions, which I strongly disagree with.

Oh spare me, we have so many items that are actually broken and you want them to fix this? it is a working system, it hurts no one, and changing it will waste time and energy that needs desperately to but spent on REAL problems not your pet peeves.

Tell how, how does the current hamp hurt the game? and how does it hurt the game more than the items on the known issues list that have been there for OVER A YEAR???

Thanks for your opinions maybe next time try some facts if you're going to try and insult me.

STOP THIS DEVS, IT'S A BLOODY WASTE OF TIME TURBINE CANNOT AFFORD.

ravenduke
10-16-2014, 02:04 PM
I agree, that to the best of my knowledge, there is no real complaint about "heal builds". My complaint, and what I suspect is at the root of Turbine's thoughts on this one, is that HAmp, as it currently is implemented, is a broken, dead-end system.

If people are not using "heal builds" to exploit this so-called broken system? it's not broken. And you know that there are numerous systems that are currently broken, many.

You give the game away when you call it "dead-end", clearly you hope for something new. Well guess what? if we don't get the problems that have actually been hurting the game fixed everything will be a dead-end system. Wasting precious and finite energy changing something that is not broken or being exploited to the detriment of other players can WAIT IN LINE until the more pressing issues like the "known issues" list and the old class trees are fixed.

niehues
10-16-2014, 02:06 PM
This is the general direction we're thinking of going in for item changes. We haven't gotten to the point of determining exactly what the bonus types would be, but we'd tentatively expect all current +10% items to be one bonus type, a different bonus for 20%, and a third bonus type for 30%.

This also makes it easier to introduce new items or augments in understandable ways. We can introduce a 15% bonus that's the same as the 10% bonus, resulting in an increase that (1) is only 5% more (2) doesn't stack with everything (the way it would be expected to work, as current item values are that way).

Note that if we added a new stacking 15% and 25% sources (items or otherwise), under the current system those with 897% healing amp would increase to 1289%. One of the major benefits is that we can add new sources without the numbers exploding like that on the far end (which also means we can add in bonuses benefiting the lower end).


how about: low mid and high heal amp... so u can have 3 classes of heal that stack with each other but not with same.. and u can categorize it to easy fit any bonus on there..

low: 0 to 20% (or 19)
medium: 21 to 29%
high: 30 to 40%


this way u can easly fix most item.. other than the named ones like the fleshmaker

anyways just one idea

ravenduke
10-16-2014, 02:12 PM
I will tell you what really bothers me about this entire fiasco.

It exposes the mental state of the Dev workforce.

Turbine's Devs are making busy work that they can easily fix by inventing a problem that does not exist there by sacrificing the stability of the entire system to score points with management.

All the while they can avoid taking on the really crucial legacy problems that are much harder and can't be solved by breaking something that works so that they don't have a loss on the scoreboard.

This kind of thinking is strictly quarterly based and in no way takes into consideration the current state of actual play or the long term future of the game, pure busy work that benefits no one who actually plays the game.

FIX THE PROBLEMS, DON'T MAKE UP FAKE ONES.

Bridge_Dweller
10-16-2014, 02:35 PM
I will tell you what really bothers me about this entire fiasco.

It exposes the mental state of the Dev workforce.

Turbine's Devs are making busy work that they can easily fix by inventing a problem that does not exist there by sacrificing the stability of the entire system to score points with management.

All the while they can avoid taking on the really crucial legacy problems that are much harder and can't be solved by breaking something that works so that they don't have a loss on the scoreboard.

This kind of thinking is strictly quarterly based and in no way takes into consideration the current state of actual play or the long term future of the game, pure busy work that benefits no one who actually plays the game.

FIX THE PROBLEMS, DON'T MAKE UP FAKE ONES.

Sure, this fixes is a problem that doesn't actually exist, but most builds are getting buffed for a change.

Pick your battles.

EllisDee37
10-16-2014, 02:38 PM
My vote is to not have the initial items stack with each other, at least not as a rule. I would make most amp items one single bonus type, say competence. (eg: DT Armor, greensteel, iron mitts, pdk gloves, eClaw, levik's, convalescent lootgen) Keep the monk bracers a stacking insight bonus, and maybe make finger necklace a stacking enhancement bonus just because it was always a unique kind of item.

The point of doubling the bonuses is compensation for no longer stacking. That's why all the different dodge bonuses no longer stack with each other.

Violith
10-16-2014, 02:38 PM
This sounds like it will be a clusterf- I mean, a chaotic mess. Having all item bonuses named differently will be way more confusing than the current system.

May I suggest keeping the bonus simple:
- Current 10% should be called Tier 1 bonus.
- Current 20% should be called Tier 2 bonus.
- Current 30% should be called Tier 3 bonus.

That way, you can keep insight for Jidz and still have room to boost those bonuses tiers individually, without coming out with confusing bonuses types. Just add the text that says that the tiers stack with each other other but not itself.

In future loot, if you diversify the bonuses ranges, tier 1 could be available in 5%/10%/15%, tier 2 15%/20%/25% and tier 3 25%/30%/35%, leaving it very clear what stacks and what doesn't. You can add an augment bonuses as well.

How is it any different the any other system in the game? and how is it confusing? I dont find any of the different buff types to be confusing. pretty much every item has more then one type of bonus, With a different name to say how they stack, and changing healing amp items to follow a simliar system only helps simplify things, not makes them more confusing. if it has a different type name, it stacks, simple as that


stats, have enhnancemnet, exceptional, insightful, profane, sacred, etc.
sneak attack, deadly, accurracy, etc has compentence and insightful, and sometimes artifact.

so now they making healing amp follow the same guidelines, rather then having the different % stack, they're making it so that the different types stack, and allowing the current stacking to continue by changing the current % into different types. How is that so confusing?

and changing HOW they stack from multiplicative to additive makes it not so broken to add higher/more types, so how is changing healing amp into a similiar system more confusing than the current system? its the exact same system, just being expanded upon.

Forget about the %'s, the items themselves are losing the % and becoming ratings similiar to prr, with the exact same formula as prr which helps prevent it from both becoming broken and easilier understood. Is the current system broken? probably not, but its close and it cant be added upon without revamping it. Which I've seen plenty of people complain about adding new systems rather then using what they have if it works, PRR and MRR Work and they formula is being added upon to work with heal amp... which allows devs to make new items that use such bonuses again, its happening as people want, maybe not to the exact area, but the desire to simplify things and use the same systems has been around for awhile.

TPICKRELL
10-16-2014, 02:56 PM
If the new system results in the devs actually adding new high level AMP sources that stack with the 30%ers that are already in the game, then I'm ok with the changes. I would have been perfectly happy if they had left it alone and just added a 10% and 20% augment that did not stack with the DT and convalescence items. But if they are going to redo the system, this proposal works for me.

Although there have been no dev replies to the WF questions that I and others have asked... I'm assuming that the WF penalties get left as is, ie they are already subtracted from the base. If so, this has the effect of fixing the long standing WF HAmp problem that has driven my main away from being a WF pure monk. The WF penalty should now be a straight 50 to 20 HAmp penalty(50 with no healers friend, 20 with all three tiers) , not (50 to 20) * all the HAmp multipliers.

Seikojin
10-16-2014, 03:04 PM
If the new system results in the devs actually adding new high level AMP sources that stack with the 30%ers that are already in the game, then I'm ok with the changes. I would have been perfectly happy if they had left it alone and just added a 10% and 20% augment that did not stack with the DT and convalescence items. But if they are going to redo the system, this proposal works for me.

Although there have been no dev replies to the WF questions that I and others have asked... I'm assuming that the WF penalties get left as is, ie they are already subtracted from the base. If so, this has the effect of fixing the long standing WF HAmp problem that has driven my main away from being a WF pure monk. The WF penalty should now be a straight 50 to 20 HAmp penalty(50 with no healers friend, 20 with all three tiers) , not (50 to 20) * all the HAmp multipliers.

Considering the mechanics being talked about, I would imagine it would have double the penalty, and all existing options would offer double the benifit. So nothing changes, it just allows more wiggle room when you include items and effects that will add healing amp.

Also another thing I see from this is passive healing amp included in enhancements for more melee trees so they can be a little more self sufficient when they are soloing or working with less than a full team.

TPICKRELL
10-16-2014, 03:08 PM
Considering the mechanics being talked about, I would imagine it would have double the penalty, and all existing options would offer double the benifit. So nothing changes, it just allows more wiggle room when you include items and effects that will add healing amp.

Also another thing I see from this is passive healing amp included in enhancements for more melee trees so they can be a little more self sufficient when they are soloing or working with less than a full team.

So you think a normal WF will start with 0% HAmp (ie get no heals from positive healing)? I don't see that as viable. And a BF will start with -5 HAmp IE possibly get hurt by positive heals?

DaSawks
10-16-2014, 03:18 PM
This is the general direction we're thinking of going in for item changes. We haven't gotten to the point of determining exactly what the bonus types would be, but we'd tentatively expect all current +10% items to be one bonus type, a different bonus for 20%, and a third bonus type for 30%.

This also makes it easier to introduce new items or augments in understandable ways. We can introduce a 15% bonus that's the same as the 10% bonus, resulting in an increase that (1) is only 5% more (2) doesn't stack with everything (the way it would be expected to work, as current item values are that way).

Note that if we added a new stacking 15% and 25% sources (items or otherwise), under the current system those with 897% healing amp would increase to 1289%. One of the major benefits is that we can add new sources without the numbers exploding like that on the far end (which also means we can add in bonuses benefiting the lower end).
More stacking confusion. Awesome.

Ovrad
10-16-2014, 03:48 PM
How is it any different the any other system in the game? and how is it confusing? [snip]

Because currently it's very easy to see what stacks with hamp, you just need different values. If they now have various values, with various bonuses types that all sound the same, it makes the situation more confusing than ever.

The current nomenclature found on items; enhancement, insightful, exceptional and profane, isn't enough. Insightful is already used by jidz, finger necklace needs it's own bonus, and exceptional stacks with itself so it can't be used. That doesn't leave enough bonuses for the 3 tiers, so they're gonna need to create new types anyway. By keeping it simple, "Tier 1/2/3 bonus", it's easy to see right away what stacks, especially once they start changing some of those numbers. You might end up with a 20 and 25 that don't stack, or 2 different 10 that do.

SilkofDrasnia
10-16-2014, 04:26 PM
Because currently it's very easy to see what stacks with hamp, you just need different values. If they now have various values, with various bonuses types that all sound the same, it makes the situation more confusing than ever.

The current nomenclature found on items; enhancement, insightful, exceptional and profane, isn't enough. Insightful is already used by jidz, finger necklace needs it's own bonus, and exceptional stacks with itself so it can't be used. That doesn't leave enough bonuses for the 3 tiers, so they're gonna need to create new types anyway. By keeping it simple, "Tier 1/2/3 bonus", it's easy to see right away what stacks, especially once they start changing some of those numbers. You might end up with a 20 and 25 that don't stack, or 2 different 10 that do.

That's the thing though there shouldn't be two 10s that stack which is the whole point of the types. Anything that is a 10 will be the same type anything that is 20 will be the same type.

Which brings me back to them not even having to add different values as it is not needed. All they need to do is add augments of the values we have now 10, 20 and 30% (or 20, 40, 60) but make sure they are typed so they do not stack with equivalent value gear.




from what the dev just stated, seems others and I was right in that the current 10/20/30% items will be typed differently, thus continue to stack and doubled and set into a rateing formula similiar to PRR, so there is diminishing returns.

Eh yea that what I just said not long ago?

also, if they add hamp augments the augments of each rating shouldnt be tied to a type. but rather have an augment of each rating for each type. (thus the current 10/20/30% items, will become a rating of 20 (x) /40 (y) /60 (z), and they'd be able to include other items/augments of lesser character levels like 10(level 3) /15(level 6)/20(lvl 12)/30(level 15)/40(level 12-13(raid) -18)/60(lvl 20+) for each type of X and Y, and Z. (same with every other item systems, x/y/z easily can be equipment/compentence/exceptional/etc.

Eh? A 10% item in the new system will be a 20 item so the 20 augment should be of the same type so they do not stack with each other but allow the augment to stack with 20%(40) item or 30% (60) items. That is what I was saying, dunno why you trying to make it so complicated? 20 augments should not stack with 20 gear because they should be typed as the same thing! 40 augements should not stack with 40 items ...so on and so forth.

currently there is only 3-4 types that would be made, the 3 from current gear, and insightful (from jidz), and depending on how high they allow each type to go (I'd say at most a rating of 60 no matter what the type, since there is currently a 30% item in the new raid, and thats supposedly going to be the level cap for awhile.

currently if they go through with as planned, the items alone would increase hamp by 1.2-1.7 (120%-170%) at level 20+ for a rating item of 20/40/60, thus even if they allow each type to reach a max rating of 60, it'd only be 1.8-2.4 (180%-240%) at level 20+ (3 types - +insightful) from 60/60/60/(60) items. alot better scaling and easier to keep it in check, while also being able to let lower levels benefit from it if they go with the above numbers. could even go and have the different amount of each type stagger at levels, thus say type X is 3 levels higher then type Y for the same # thus pushing back the total amount able to be gotten. etc.

No, no , no each type should not be able to have a rating of "60" that would be power creep indeed. Like I have been saying there is no good reason to add lower hamp values. It is not needed at lower levels at all. All these changes should be to just allow them to let more 20. 40 and 60 items to drop or be put on named items.

not saying thats how they are going to do it, but they could and it wouldnt be able to get out of hand compared to how it is now.

See in orange

SirValentine
10-16-2014, 04:28 PM
The point of doubling the bonuses is compensation for no longer stacking. That's why all the different dodge bonuses no longer stack with each other.


The cases aren't parallel. Dodge bonuses were additive before. Heal amp is currently multiplicative.

SilkofDrasnia
10-16-2014, 04:32 PM
...
The point of doubling the bonuses is compensation for no longer stacking. That's why all the different dodge bonuses no longer stack with each other.

Like SirValentine said the doubling is to compensate for the system going from multiplicative to additive which is a nerf.

Ovrad
10-16-2014, 04:40 PM
That's the thing though there shouldn't be two 10s that stack which is the whole point of the types. Anything that is a 10 will be the same type anything that is 20 will be the same type.

The whole point of this change is so that they can add new values, so don't expect the current bonuses to stay the same on new items.

SilkofDrasnia
10-16-2014, 04:44 PM
The whole point of this change is so that they can add new values, so don't expect the current bonuses to stay the same on new items.

Maybe but if so it is a mistake, no new values are needed.

Alternately if they really really need to add new values they could them fit into one of each of the three types.

mikarddo
10-16-2014, 05:23 PM
well, no, because thats really not true is it? I havent seen anyone show that a build thats over 500% healing amp show a net gain on this proposed system. Are you claiming that the folks running 600-900% healing amp currently are getting stronger with this new system? can you elaborate on that?

regardless, even if they did get buffed, I wouldnt care because the system still helps players like myself significantly. the players that dont grind the past lives and try to squeeze in items in every slot they can.

Its not the ultra high hamp builds that are getting buffed. Its the already strong builds with lowish hamp that are getting significantly more hamp from doubling items. So you are looking at the wrong end of the spectrum.

Leave room for better gear by not doubling current values. Maybe add 10 to each instead for a moderate compromise making current values 20, 30 and 40 or simply keep them as they are to leave room for new stuff.

Stoner81
10-16-2014, 06:00 PM
Our first build has two Paladin past lives (currently 10%), healing amplification from Vigor of Life (currently 10%), a 30% healing amplification source, and a 20% healing amplification source.

On live this would be 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.3 * 1.2 for a total multiplier of ~1.887.

Under the new system this would be 20 + 20 + 60 + 40 for 140 Healing Amplification, which would be a multiplier to healing of 2.4 which is an increase in effectiveness.

Sorry I just don't understand the maths behind this example because it looks like a nerf.

1.1 * 1.1 * 1.3 * 1.2 = 1.8876 (188% rounding down and assuming I have understood the maths right which could well be where I am going wrong)

20 + 20 + 60 + 40 = 140 (140%)

How do you get the 2.4 from the 140 above it makes no sense to me at all.

EDIT - I am such a muppet I forgot to take in to account the new formula for the calculation (100 + rating / 100)

So the new calculation would be as follows (I think):

20 + 20 + 60 + 40 + 100 = 240% (when divided by 100 you get the 2.4 multiplier).

Stoner81.

G_Lich
10-16-2014, 06:24 PM
This is a meta buff. low investors get a slight buff, high investors get to stop wearing level 11 gear. If you invested that many gearslots at endgame to your hamp, please take a step back and realize how hard you nerfed yourself.

devs please add asap and move on to new stuff or bugs. thank you for all you do.

B0ltdrag0n
10-16-2014, 08:23 PM
While this is absolutely correct, it simply may be related to each other.
As in - they can't make new items, because they don't work with the old code as expected.

Shroud of the ardent and iron mitts disagree

Feithlin
10-16-2014, 10:08 PM
I think it's a good work overall. The system will be easier to grapple for new players and will give more possibilities to include new gear. The results are fine: little buff or nerf, but close enough to the live values.

The bonus types should be similar to those granted to attributes: enhancement, insight, exceptional, etc. to make them easier to identify and to make the whole concept coherent with the rest. Btw, on a side note, it would be important imo to introduce this system of bonus types to the starting guide for new players.

Standal
10-16-2014, 11:37 PM
Why do the devs feel the need to screw around with a system that is only broken because they broke the loot system? Multiplicative Heal Amp of 10/20/30 works well and gives plenty of amp. There's no need to buff almost all mainstream builds with doubled additive values. Currently if I put on my 10/20/30 gear I have 1.716 amp from gear. The new system will give me 1.60 from a single slot. 2.0 if I wear my current 30/20. 2.2 with the full set. For build that even consider heal amp gear the new system is just too much.

EllisDee37
10-17-2014, 01:55 AM
The cases aren't parallel. Dodge bonuses were additive before. Heal amp is currently multiplicative.Good point.

I'm fuzzy on energy absorption. Does it still stack multiplicatively, or did they change it to non-stacking?

cru121
10-17-2014, 02:02 AM
how will warforged be handled? If they become additive as well, they will become a prime heal amp race:
50 base +20 +20 +20 enhancements => 1.1, third best after humans and half elfs.

I recommend they keep their x 0.5 multiplicative penalty. So that they will be at 0.5 * (100+ 3x20 enhs + gear + stuff).
Bladeforged should be then 0.45 * (100 + stuff).

Eth
10-17-2014, 04:02 AM
Shroud of the ardent and iron mitts disagree

Was more thinking of augments than items and different values than 10/20/30 ;)

Glascanon
10-17-2014, 04:49 AM
Good point.

I'm fuzzy on energy absorption. Does it still stack multiplicatively, or did they change it to non-stacking?

Concidering about the last changes and the ongoing changes they plan about the healing amp they probably going to make Energy Absorption stack additively too in the future.

So if i have 150% energy absorption will i get healed then by 50% of the damage and will that heal stack with the 300% healing amp buff?

Cuz that will make the non evasion builds work better in compare with evasion builds.

If the devs want to make everything equal why don´t they just give us an godmode buff on our ship and lower every mob hp to 1?

Everyone can do EE then. Even a ********. Mission complete!

I guess it is less complex to program that but with the same result.

Another idea would be to add a window in front of the quest 4 ppl who are not able to runn EE to choose a lower difficulty. Oh wait... we alreddy have that...

Robbenklopper
10-17-2014, 07:36 AM
.... We’d also like to give Barbarians lots of Healing Amplification as part of the Barbarian pass, but it just isn’t possible with our current multiplicative model. ...
Sev~

If you´re asking for my okay to pull 5 dozen programmers right away from high-school to work on it day and night in a shower-free 24/7 pizza-hut bunker far away from the daylight, you have it!

TPICKRELL
10-17-2014, 08:20 AM
how will warforged be handled? If they become additive as well, they will become a prime heal amp race:
50 base +20 +20 +20 enhancements => 1.1, third best after humans and half elfs.

I recommend they keep their x 0.5 multiplicative penalty. So that they will be at 0.5 * (100+ 3x20 enhs + gear + stuff).
Bladeforged should be then 0.45 * (100 + stuff).

The WF Healers friends are already additive(they get added to base before the multipliers) so I see no reason why they would be doubled in the new system. Doubling the additive bonuses without doubling the penalty is unlikely, and doubling the penalty would result in WF getting 0 positive healing until they can take the healers friend enhancements. None of that seems like a viable option to me.

Also, making WF only get 50% of the power from all HAmp sources would ensure that only flavor builds are ever WF Melee. Anyone leaning towards WF melee would be pretty much forced into BladeForged Repair SLA builds. That's too strong a trend already, so it should not be locked in by a change like this.

I hope they tell us what they are thinking soon, but I strongly encourage them to make WF Melee a competitive option again by simply converting the penatly to -50 HAmp "power" and the WF Friends to +10 Hamp "power" each. That makes a WF run at a penalty of -50 to -20 HAmp power depending on how many Healer's Friends enhancements are taken. A significant but not insurmountable penalty.

cru121
10-18-2014, 11:40 AM
I hope they tell us what they are thinking soon, but I strongly encourage them to make WF Melee a competitive option again by simply converting the penatly to -50 HAmp "power" and the WF Friends to +10 Hamp "power" each. That makes a WF run at a penalty of -50 to -20 HAmp power depending on how many Healer's Friends enhancements are taken. A significant but not insurmountable penalty.

This would mean that simple ship buff and 6 AP would grant WF full heals. Not sure if this is good or bad, but getting positive heal amp for machines would be much easier.

Also interested to hear plans for construct essence feat.

DarthCaedus
10-18-2014, 04:39 PM
Keep it simple. Just have all existing and future healing amp items provide healing and repair amp. Yes this might be an overly nice thing for bladeforged and warforged but honestly they rarely rely on both. They are usually self-healing with repairs or focus solely on fleshy healing.

At first I thought this was another lol nerf like divine grace, but I don't think the proposed healing amp changes will drive people away.

MangLord
10-18-2014, 10:48 PM
If healing amp changes are well considered and handled delicately, like the changes to melee power, it could work very well. I've been very pleased with the current melee power system. Masters Blitz was handled very well, and I barely notice a difference in my ranger's furyshot damage.

On the other hand, if the proposed changes require us to wear multiple pieces of gear to equal what we can currently get with just a pair of PDK Gauntlets or Iron Mitts, then I'm not so sure about it. On one hand, a capped character with several fully unlocked Orchard items and plenty of green slots to spare wouldn't have much of an issue if they can stack several together. This can potentially make for a larger burden on a lower level epic without a wealth of green slots to pack full of gems. That being said, I feel like spellpower rubies need to be changed from ruby to sapphire, perhaps a new green-slot only emerald, or red augment slots on wearables that can only be slotted with spellpower gems. My lvl 28 ranger is overflowing with green and blue slots on nearly every item and half of them are empty for lack of anything really interesting after PRR, stat boosts and feather fall. He wears an EE Shamanic Fetish, and it works pretty well, but devotion spellpower is a very difficult thing to slot if your trinket is occupied with something else. It should be a sapphire since it's a defensive effect and, at least on my builds, would loosen up my gear loadout if I'm not stuck with a Shamanic Fetish forever.

That leads into my next question, which is how is this going to stack with positive spellpower and heal skill? Why do we have several systems all working to increase green numbers rolling over our heads? Would it be possible to do away with the proposed healing amp nonsense and have Heal (or repair) skill count for more, so perhaps a +20 Heal/Repair gem would work similarly to a 20% healing amp, and ranks in the skill would increase the benefit on a parallel to PRR and the level of healing amplification that it provides? It's certainly possible to invest a decent amount of points into Heal after 20 levels, even off-class. The only problem with this is that a player would have to reincarnate to reinvest skillpoints in Heal/Repair if it suddenly becomes tremendously important.

It seems to that more often than not, proposed changes simply add more numbers and modifiers to the pile of stuff we need to pay attention to and add together to create a single, workable effect. I feel like the multitude of various systems are already complicated enough that 80% of the player base doesn't understand them well enough to make proper use of their resources, and it can be a real strain on a limited amount of gear slots when you add in yet another number to an important system that everyone needs. If you're going to change H-Amp from a multiplicative effect to a static number, then you may as well condense it into either Devotion or a more effective return on investment in Heal skill. In my opinion, that would be the more logical way to go since everyone has access to the skill, but there isn't much of a draw for putting ranks in it. Heal skill could be the new UMD. LOL.

Seriously though...you guys really need to think about streamlining and reigning it in with the additive systems. Heaping more toppings on a burger doesn't necessarily make it taste better, as an analogy, and an overly complex game probably isn't a huge draw to new players.

Uska
10-19-2014, 01:01 AM
Just seems to me that people who didn't bother with it before because they couldn't squeeze in enough will do so,now because they will be able to get a decent amount in one slot so the overpowered builds will be more so and a majority of hamp builds might be slightly buffed and a few specialized builds will be nerfed seems like the whole thing is a lot of make work and a waste of time just to appear as if they are doing something and I feel the time could be better spent