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PsychoBlonde
10-13-2014, 12:57 PM
I want to get these in as early as possible, so here they are:


This would be a great time to bring on some stuff for Barbarian, Druid, and Ranger. IMO Druid is the priority tree-wise simply because they don't have a 3rd tree yet, but perhaps it'd be better to do a multi-useful desert themed tree something like Harper that's most helpful for our beloved Primal classes. Or both. I have this great 3rd edition D&D book here called Sandstorm: Mastering the Perils of Fire and Sand. Scorpion Heritor (poisons) would be a great option, as would Walker in the Waste (Drains, a type of lich form, mummy and sand golem pets). Scorpion Heritor would make a great general tree (could do it as a Vulkoor thing, which would make it a lot like Harper) and Walker in the Waste would make a great Druid tree. Or perhaps something Wind oriented. One thing which could be cool for a high-level ability on Scorpion Heritor would be allowing us to drop a Poison spell ward (on a lengthy cooldown, of course). This would bring some CC in for classes like Barbarian or Ranger and be an interesting little twist.
The quests: please don't make them like the godawful boring slog that is Wheloon and Storm Horns. I tried to like these quests, I really did, but they are so, so boring and tedious and filled with way too many goddamn mobs. In particular PLEASE PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF SENSE don't do another "defend this room until time runs out" quest. PLEASE. There are SO MANY of these in the game and they are SOOO SOOO BORING. And let's have some INTERESTING bosses instead of a huge wad of HP. I mean bosses like Deadheart (with his dancing club) or Gentleman Glin. Give us oddball stuff that keeps us on our toes instead of "here is a mountain of HP and Damage, beat it down for 10 minutes". And please don't stud the quests with "you must kill everything in this room to open this door" stuff. Please. Let's have some stealth objectives and puzzle objectives and alternate routes and stuff. I know we're probably stuck with Spell Wards because this is a Forgotten Realms pack and APPARENTLY those people are TOO LAZY to do REAL TRAPS.
Please don't bring back the horribly annoying "I will run away and become invulnerable periodically" broke shadows from Wheloon etc. I realize this is more Netheril stuff but ugh, those are terrible mobs. If you must have them, make it useful in that you don't HAVE to chase EVERY LAST ONE of them down and kill them to progress. Make it more like "oh, running away? Now's the time for me to try to use this lev--*chomp*--DAMMIT!"
Druid, Barbarian, and Ranger-friendly gear plz. Also some opportunities to use Wilderness Lore in the new pack would be very nice. I would love to see a survival-esque mechanic in the wilderness area where you keep getting a stacking debuff the longer you are out there: "dehydration" that you can clear by using a water source (make the rest shrines look like fountains or wells for neato factor). Make most of the water sources require you to make a Wilderness Lore check and hey, you have a nifty little attrition mechanic. If there are Shadowfell type sections, have a similar mechanic but using Arcane Lore instead.
Apparently people hate pits full of spikes that they actually have to make some effort to avoid instead of just charging on through. So there should be like, 30 of these. At least. And all the good loot should be at the bottom. Okay, maybe not this one.

Drathsiddh
10-14-2014, 09:29 AM
I want to get these in as early as possible, so here they are:


This would be a great time to bring on some stuff for Barbarian, Druid, and Ranger. IMO Druid is the priority tree-wise simply because they don't have a 3rd tree yet, but perhaps it'd be better to do a multi-useful desert themed tree something like Harper that's most helpful for our beloved Primal classes. Or both. I have this great 3rd edition D&D book here called Sandstorm: Mastering the Perils of Fire and Sand. Scorpion Heritor (poisons) would be a great option, as would Walker in the Waste (Drains, a type of lich form, mummy and sand golem pets). Scorpion Heritor would make a great general tree (could do it as a Vulkoor thing, which would make it a lot like Harper) and Walker in the Waste would make a great Druid tree. Or perhaps something Wind oriented. One thing which could be cool for a high-level ability on Scorpion Heritor would be allowing us to drop a Poison spell ward (on a lengthy cooldown, of course). This would bring some CC in for classes like Barbarian or Ranger and be an interesting little twist.
The quests: please don't make them like the godawful boring slog that is Wheloon and Storm Horns. I tried to like these quests, I really did, but they are so, so boring and tedious and filled with way too many goddamn mobs. In particular PLEASE PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF SENSE don't do another "defend this room until time runs out" quest. PLEASE. There are SO MANY of these in the game and they are SOOO SOOO BORING. And let's have some INTERESTING bosses instead of a huge wad of HP. I mean bosses like Deadheart (with his dancing club) or Gentleman Glin. Give us oddball stuff that keeps us on our toes instead of "here is a mountain of HP and Damage, beat it down for 10 minutes". And please don't stud the quests with "you must kill everything in this room to open this door" stuff. Please. Let's have some stealth objectives and puzzle objectives and alternate routes and stuff. I know we're probably stuck with Spell Wards because this is a Forgotten Realms pack and APPARENTLY those people are TOO LAZY to do REAL TRAPS.
Please don't bring back the horribly annoying "I will run away and become invulnerable periodically" broke shadows from Wheloon etc. I realize this is more Netheril stuff but ugh, those are terrible mobs. If you must have them, make it useful in that you don't HAVE to chase EVERY LAST ONE of them down and kill them to progress. Make it more like "oh, running away? Now's the time for me to try to use this lev--*chomp*--DAMMIT!"
Druid, Barbarian, and Ranger-friendly gear plz. Also some opportunities to use Wilderness Lore in the new pack would be very nice. I would love to see a survival-esque mechanic in the wilderness area where you keep getting a stacking debuff the longer you are out there: "dehydration" that you can clear by using a water source (make the rest shrines look like fountains or wells for neato factor). Make most of the water sources require you to make a Wilderness Lore check and hey, you have a nifty little attrition mechanic. If there are Shadowfell type sections, have a similar mechanic but using Arcane Lore instead.
Apparently people hate pits full of spikes that they actually have to make some effort to avoid instead of just charging on through. So there should be like, 30 of these. At least. And all the good loot should be at the bottom. Okay, maybe not this one.


Agreed:
1: The barbarian overhaul is next, I believe, improving their Dr, better enhancement trees and all. Then comes rouge and then druid. Not sure about the latter.
2: I liked a couple of the quests for their original ideas, What Goes Up, Through the Mirror Darkly too name a few.
3: So many boss fights are the HP things that we need a change, there is no doubt on that.
4: I have suggested something like this, with lots of weird random encounters, volcanoes, earthquakes and all......Never thought about something like that though.
5: Well to be honest, I love the spike traps.........

I would IMHO like as many nerfs as possible, without them, there is nothing to talk about, and have a good bash over it. :P

Cordovan
10-20-2014, 03:01 PM
I've been looking for a thread to let folks know about this, and this thread seems to fit just fine: We are planning to post up some feedback threads later this week on our plans for the Barbarian enhancement trees (Frenzied Berserker, Occult Slayer and Ravager.) When they are posted, we'd love to get your feedback on the ideas. Thanks!

Forul
10-20-2014, 05:20 PM
I've been looking for a thread to let folks know about this, and this thread seems to fit just fine: We are planning to post up some feedback threads later this week on our plans for the Barbarian enhancement trees (Frenzied Berserker, Occult Slayer and Ravager.) When they are posted, we'd love to get your feedback on the ideas. Thanks!

Keep up the good work with the updates!

Myrddinman
10-20-2014, 06:14 PM
I've been looking for a thread to let folks know about this, and this thread seems to fit just fine: We are planning to post up some feedback threads later this week on our plans for the Barbarian enhancement trees (Frenzied Berserker, Occult Slayer and Ravager.) When they are posted, we'd love to get your feedback on the ideas. Thanks!

Barbarians = great!

Care to comment on Severlin's new title as "Fighter/Barbarian/Designer"? Is there some hope for some Fighter love in U24?

Vellrad
10-20-2014, 06:25 PM
If barbs won't be byoh, they will still be noob trap.

Anyway, I hope boss fights are finally going to be interesting.
Each boss must have special skills and abilities, otherwise, it can as well be removed from quest.

edrein
10-20-2014, 07:18 PM
I want to get these in as early as possible, so here they are:

This would be a great time to bring on some stuff for Barbarian, Druid, and Ranger. IMO Druid is the priority tree-wise simply because they don't have a 3rd tree yet, but perhaps it'd be better to do a multi-useful desert themed tree something like Harper that's most helpful for our beloved Primal classes. Or both. I have this great 3rd edition D&D book here called Sandstorm: Mastering the Perils of Fire and Sand. Scorpion Heritor (poisons) would be a great option, as would Walker in the Waste (Drains, a type of lich form, mummy and sand golem pets). Scorpion Heritor would make a great general tree (could do it as a Vulkoor thing, which would make it a lot like Harper) and Walker in the Waste would make a great Druid tree. Or perhaps something Wind oriented. One thing which could be cool for a high-level ability on Scorpion Heritor would be allowing us to drop a Poison spell ward (on a lengthy cooldown, of course). This would bring some CC in for classes like Barbarian or Ranger and be an interesting little twist.


An interesting choice, the Scorpion Heritor could indeed fit Eberron with Vulkoor being a deity, and it would indeed fit the memo of drow Rangers, Barbarians, and Shamans (druids). However, Walker in the Waste is very 'anti-druid'. While it could fit and work and would be an interesting choice, Druids abhor the undead and find them to be the ultimate abomination. As far as I'm aware from my years of pen and paper and reading D&D lore the only undead reasonably tolerated by any druid is a Baelnorn, which is an divine undead elf type from Forgotten Realms (perhaps other settings have them as well), and even then it is more of a veneration for the services of a Baelnorn than actually allowing such a creature to exist. This is due to Baelnorn's being typically of a good alignment, while most undead are evil based, especially liches. That being said, I'd love to see Walker in the Waste as a any-class Enhancement tree, I think like Baelnorn's they would have to be given the special rules toward some positive energy healing which in my eyes would possibly be 50% base, which can be modified by the upcoming possible changes to heal amp to normal 100% ranges, while also benefiting from 50% negative energy healing.

Actually if we could get some dev comments on a Walker in the Waste tree, I'd consider doing an enhancement write up. Hey Cordovan can we get a quick shown to the dev team deal going on?

Scrabbler
10-20-2014, 08:17 PM
If barbs won't be byoh, they will still be noob trap.
The Barbarian class should be the one without any healing... it doesn't make sense if every single class has healing features. Instead, they should add affordable items (sold for plat) which can provide anyone with acceptable healing (within appropriate limits)


Scorpion Heritor (poisons) would be a great option,
It would be interesting to see a poison-themed alt tree, but first they'd need to fix existing player Poison features. Currently poison effects are available to Rogue, Barbarian, Drow, Cleric, and Wizard, but it's only Monk that actually has a working system for it.

FuzzyDuck81
10-21-2014, 01:45 AM
The Barbarian class should be the one without any healing... it doesn't make sense if every single class has healing features. Instead, they should add affordable items (sold for plat) which can provide anyone with acceptable healing (within appropriate limits)


They've already said barbarians will be getting some healing amp, and i suspect they'll have more healing via vampiric-type effects (occult slayer has vampiric bond for temp hp, i expect something will be added to ravager though), so that's at least in keeping with the whole "i'm crazy & drinking the blood & gnawing on my enemies" aspect :)

Angelic-council
10-21-2014, 02:11 AM
I know you guys planning to give barbarians a lot amp.. but, which class is next. FvS?

SirValentine
10-21-2014, 03:27 AM
I know you guys planning to give barbarians a lot amp.. but, which class is next. FvS?

This was included in their survey results from the Balance thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/439018-Player-Character-Balance?p=5301734&viewfull=1#post5301734):

https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/ClassPowerAverages.png


Notice how first they overhauled Bards, then Paladins, and next up is Barbarians?

So one might guess they're eyeing Rogue, Fighter, and Cleric next, all being sub-3.0 on their power scale.

mezzorco
10-21-2014, 05:29 AM
So one might guess they're eyeing Rogue, Fighter, and Cleric next, all being sub-3.0 on their power scale.

They somewhat worked on rogues, fighters and clerics too in U23.

Fighter: introduced Vanguard, adjusted Stalwart Defender, armor+shield pass
Cleric: armor+shield pass
Rogue: sneak attack scaling with melee power

I know they didn't focus on cleric and rogue, but I don't think they'll do it in the near future. Maybe just some tweaks together with barbarian pass, then they'll focus on ranged builds in general rather than a particular class.

Vanhooger
10-21-2014, 07:48 AM
They somewhat worked on rogues, fighters and clerics too in U23.

Fighter: introduced Vanguard, adjusted Stalwart Defender, armor+shield pass
Cleric: armor+shield pass
Rogue: sneak attack scaling with melee power

I know they didn't focus on cleric and rogue, but I don't think they'll do it in the near future. Maybe just some tweaks together with barbarian pass, then they'll focus on ranged builds in general rather than a particular class.

Rogue got harper tree too, that is a very nice options for assassins

Monkey-Boy
10-21-2014, 08:05 AM
This was included in their survey results from the Balance thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/439018-Player-Character-Balance?p=5301734&viewfull=1#post5301734):

https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/ClassPowerAverages.png


Notice how first they overhauled Bards, then Paladins, and next up is Barbarians?

So one might guess they're eyeing Rogue, Fighter, and Cleric next, all being sub-3.0 on their power scale.

They should update 2 classes per update, this way it'll be done before 2017 :)

After barbarian the rest just need minor tweaks anyway, they weren't as bad off as bards and paladins were.

Gloomfall
10-21-2014, 08:59 AM
Rogue needs a lot more than Sneak Attack scaling with Melee Power. At the moment it's far too situational for reliable damage. Comparing it to other classes that can far surpass Rogues in DPS.

At the moment the most popular Rogue mix is a 2 level splash for trapping/evasion.

Going deeper than that just for the sneak attack isn't quite that popular.

I like what they did with Paladin making 20 levels pure fairly powerful and rewarding rather than pushing emphasis on multi-class builds. I hope they continue that trend with Rogues and other classes in the game. I've got a full list of Rogue enhancements I'd love to see. If the Devs would ever like it feel free to reach out in PM on the forums!

axel15810
10-21-2014, 10:02 AM
They've already said barbarians will be getting some healing amp, and i suspect they'll have more healing via vampiric-type effects (occult slayer has vampiric bond for temp hp, i expect something will be added to ravager though), so that's at least in keeping with the whole "i'm crazy & drinking the blood & gnawing on my enemies" aspect :)

What I'm hoping (and expecting) from the healing amp in barb trees statment is that barbs will continue to NOT have any self-healing and no casting abilities while raged - and in return will be compensated with by far the best melee DPS in the game - barb rage needs a significant buff. Also dodge, nice PRR and huge HP so they can stay alive in EE. The big heal amp will allow them to easily be healed from outside sources. Should give them nice synergy with divines.

Speaking as someone who primarily plays clerics, I think this game needs to see the classic triangle of group play become a viable playstyle again. Me and a lot of others are sick of this forced 100% BYOH environment all the time.

I'm not for nerfing BYOH, but BYOH should not be the only viable way to play the game. The classic triangle should not be forced on those who want to play a BYOH game, but it should be a viable option in DDO for those who want to play that way. Right now it just isn't viable as there is there is practically nothing to be gained by giving up self-healing on any toon - a buffed barb rage could finally be a reason to do so.

Giving barbs reliable self-healing or taking away the rage penalties would be a mistake as it would make them too much like fighters. Lets keep barbs unique. I want to see more class diversity in DDO, not just a slightly different version of a fighter.

HuneyMunster
10-21-2014, 10:08 AM
Rogue needs a lot more than Sneak Attack scaling with Melee Power. At the moment it's far too situational for reliable damage. Comparing it to other classes that can far surpass Rogues in DPS.

At the moment the most popular Rogue mix is a 2 level splash for trapping/evasion.

Going deeper than that just for the sneak attack isn't quite that popular.

I like what they did with Paladin making 20 levels pure fairly powerful and rewarding rather than pushing emphasis on multi-class builds. I hope they continue that trend with Rogues and other classes in the game. I've got a full list of Rogue enhancements I'd love to see. If the Devs would ever like it feel free to reach out in PM on the forums!

Assassinate defiantly needs a fix. Currently you get instant agro on any mob that is too close to your target so can no longer double assassinate unless someone else has agro on them. Also if the monster knows of you presence but cannot see you they cannot be assassinated.

Assassins trick takes about 5 secs to cast making it fairly useless.

Monkey-Boy
10-21-2014, 10:25 AM
Rogue needs a lot more than Sneak Attack scaling with Melee Power. At the moment it's far too situational for reliable damage. Comparing it to other classes that can far surpass Rogues in DPS.


Nonsense, get a deception item or two and it's almost a constant.

Gloomfall
10-21-2014, 10:41 AM
Nonsense, get a deception item or two and it's almost a constant.

Go play a low level Rogue with deception items and then fight undead, see what happens.

Gloomfall
10-21-2014, 10:43 AM
Assassinate defiantly needs a fix. Currently you get instant agro on any mob that is too close to your target so can no longer double assassinate unless someone else has agro on them. Also if the monster knows of you presence but cannot see you they cannot be assassinated.

Assassins trick takes about 5 secs to cast making it fairly useless.

I would love to have Assassin's Trick replaced with something akin to Exposing Strike from the Ranger DWS enhancement. Possibly with some slightly better crit multipliers or chances, or maybe make the initial attack count as a sneak attack as well.

Cordovan
10-21-2014, 10:48 AM
Barbarians = great!

Care to comment on Severlin's new title as "Fighter/Barbarian/Designer"? Is there some hope for some Fighter love in U24?

He's actually had that title since he joined the DDO team. :) I wouldn't read too much into it. U24 will focus on the Barbarian, in regard to class updates.

Monkey-Boy
10-21-2014, 10:50 AM
Go play a low level Rogue with deception items and then fight undead, see what happens.

I have a few rogue lives under my belt, I've done it and it was fine. We talking Deleras and stuff like that? Just get some maces and smash things.

Gloomfall
10-21-2014, 10:52 AM
I have a few rogue lives under my belt, I've done it and it was fine. We talking Deleras and stuff like that? Just get some maces and smash things.

Or any Rogue that doesn't use Shadowdancer in epic undead content.

Monkey-Boy
10-21-2014, 10:54 AM
Or any Rogue that doesn't use Shadowdancer in epic undead content.

I'm not sure what that means, explain please.

Gloomfall
10-21-2014, 10:55 AM
Basically, the issue is Sneak Attack immune enemies and difficulty of obtaining fortification bypass at low to mid levels. Once you get to 28 it's not as "much" of an issue, but the fact that you have to really push yourself to use your sneak attack damage on content where it matters can be annoying.

Especially when you've played through as a THF Paladin or Fighter and you can see the crazy amount of damage done.

Zeus/Cetus can be some pretty crazy melee.. but most THF in general can pull some really big numbers.

My argument was that going beyond 2 splash in Rogue for trapping you're losing a large amount of functionality you could have gotten by taking any other class.

lain5246
10-21-2014, 11:28 AM
Basically, the issue is Sneak Attack immune enemies and difficulty of obtaining fortification bypass at low to mid levels. Once you get to 28 it's not as "much" of an issue, but the fact that you have to really push yourself to use your sneak attack damage on content where it matters can be annoying.

Especially when you've played through as a THF Paladin or Fighter and you can see the crazy amount of damage done.

Zeus/Cetus can be some pretty crazy melee.. but most THF in general can pull some really big numbers.

My argument was that going beyond 2 splash in Rogue for trapping you're losing a large amount of functionality you could have gotten by taking any other class.

well I don't think that every class needs to be the best in every quest area. the idea is that parties are made to fill in rolls that one or more classes are weak in. that said I really like using shadow dancer in content that has lots of beholders and/or lv drain, but in hack and slash areas I use dc. oh and my build is currently a lv 22 human pure arti bastard sword user swapping between evasion and medium armor

lain5246
10-21-2014, 11:33 AM
I think that as a barbarian it would be cool to twf d-axes and b-swords and get glancing blows as barbs gave a more primal way of fighting.

Myrddinman
10-21-2014, 11:40 AM
He's actually had that title since he joined the DDO team. :) I wouldn't read too much into it. U24 will focus on the Barbarian, in regard to class updates.

Oh well, U23 had some great Fighter benefits. Go Barbarians!

lain5246
10-21-2014, 11:50 AM
This was included in their survey results from the Balance thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/439018-Player-Character-Balance?p=5301734&viewfull=1#post5301734):

https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/ClassPowerAverages.png


Notice how first they overhauled Bards, then Paladins, and next up is Barbarians?

So one might guess they're eyeing Rogue, Fighter, and Cleric next, all being sub-3.0 on their power scale.

if i remember correctly they are trying to get classes without a third tree, and also rogues and fighters got a decent boost with the last enhancement pass.

lain5246
10-21-2014, 11:54 AM
oops, last post I made should read that fighters and rogues got a decent boost last update not enhancement pass. sorry

Qhualor
10-21-2014, 12:00 PM
Basically, the issue is Sneak Attack immune enemies and difficulty of obtaining fortification bypass at low to mid levels. Once you get to 28 it's not as "much" of an issue, but the fact that you have to really push yourself to use your sneak attack damage on content where it matters can be annoying.

Especially when you've played through as a THF Paladin or Fighter and you can see the crazy amount of damage done.

Zeus/Cetus can be some pretty crazy melee.. but most THF in general can pull some really big numbers.

My argument was that going beyond 2 splash in Rogue for trapping you're losing a large amount of functionality you could have gotten by taking any other class.

Get a holy ghostbane weapon for low levels. Use a disruptor for mid to high levls. Its not that bad actually.


TR'd my main into a 18 rogue 2 fighter to get Shadar kai and Rogue past life. She uses 2 handers. Her DPS right now is nothing comparable to a real DPS fighter, but its really not that bad. I'll hit 20 tonight and can't wait to equip my ESOS. Should be crazy DPS.

Gloomfall
10-21-2014, 12:25 PM
Get a holy ghostbane weapon for low levels. Use a disruptor for mid to high levls. Its not that bad actually.


TR'd my main into a 18 rogue 2 fighter to get Shadar kai and Rogue past life. She uses 2 handers. Her DPS right now is nothing comparable to a real DPS fighter, but its really not that bad. I'll hit 20 tonight and can't wait to equip my ESOS. Should be crazy DPS.

The problem being that it's not comparable to a real DPS fighter.

What sort of role do they really want Rogues to have?

Utility isn't their thing. Trapping can be more efficiently accomplished by a 2 level splash.

They're definitely not tanks.

If anything DPS is kind of the only thing they have left. Why should they be worse off than someone with a substantial amount of utility or survivability more than they have?

Gloomfall
10-21-2014, 12:26 PM
well I don't think that every class needs to be the best in every quest area. the idea is that parties are made to fill in rolls that one or more classes are weak in. that said I really like using shadow dancer in content that has lots of beholders and/or lv drain, but in hack and slash areas I use dc. oh and my build is currently a lv 22 human pure arti bastard sword user swapping between evasion and medium armor

The problem is that some classes are the best in every quest area, or at least a hell of a lot better than a pure rogue. Shadowdancer helps mitigate some of the flaws that Rogue has but it doesn't go quite far enough.

patang01
10-21-2014, 12:30 PM
Basically, the issue is Sneak Attack immune enemies and difficulty of obtaining fortification bypass at low to mid levels. Once you get to 28 it's not as "much" of an issue, but the fact that you have to really push yourself to use your sneak attack damage on content where it matters can be annoying.

Especially when you've played through as a THF Paladin or Fighter and you can see the crazy amount of damage done.

Zeus/Cetus can be some pretty crazy melee.. but most THF in general can pull some really big numbers.

My argument was that going beyond 2 splash in Rogue for trapping you're losing a large amount of functionality you could have gotten by taking any other class.

That's not any different from my fighter fighting undead. Plus all classes shouldn't be good at everything. Rouges can insta kill through assassination. Few others than say casters can do the same.

Gloomfall
10-21-2014, 12:35 PM
That's not any different from my fighter fighting undead. Plus all classes shouldn't be good at everything. Rouges can insta kill through assassination. Few others than say casters can do the same.

Casters can do that, and they can do it much more effectively without drawing aggro from the entire area or having to worry about stealth first. Plus.. you know, casters?

Fighter has to worry about crit and there is no argument there. However THF fighters can still churn out a VERY healthy amount of damage even without crits. Power Attack, Weapon Specialization, and their various Fighter Enhancements do some amazing things for them. When you're looking at Paladins though the bonus Light Damage can wreck some serious face.

Qhualor
10-21-2014, 12:38 PM
The problem being that it's not comparable to a real DPS fighter.

What sort of role do they really want Rogues to have?

Utility isn't their thing. Trapping can be more efficiently accomplished by a 2 level splash.

They're definitely not tanks.

If anything DPS is kind of the only thing they have left. Why should they be worse off than someone with a substantial amount of utility or survivability more than they have?

I can make improvements and I will tonight when I hit 20. This is my first attempt at something different and going against the grain. What I should have done was take 6 -8 levels of fighter to have more access to more feats and enhancements in Kensei, but lesson learned. Comparing to my dumb dumb DPS Kensei fighter her DPS is just 2-300 points less. I'll be able to close the gap in epics this life. See what happens next life with what I know now.

Typically rogues aren't tanks, unless you just splash for the evasion. But than its better to splash monk. Rogues lose a lot of DPS with agro.

I don't know what roles "they" want rogues to be played, but customization in DDO is pretty cool. I'm able to make a rogue using 2 handers work.

Gloomfall
10-21-2014, 12:50 PM
I can make improvements and I will tonight when I hit 20. This is my first attempt at something different and going against the grain. What I should have done was take 6 -8 levels of fighter to have more access to more feats and enhancements in Kensei, but lesson learned. Comparing to my dumb dumb DPS Kensei fighter her DPS is just 2-300 points less. I'll be able to close the gap in epics this life. See what happens next life with what I know now.

Typically rogues aren't tanks, unless you just splash for the evasion. But than its better to splash monk. Rogues lose a lot of DPS with agro.

I don't know what roles "they" want rogues to be played, but customization in DDO is pretty cool. I'm able to make a rogue using 2 handers work.

You can make a two handed rogue work, it will end up being a Quarterstaff Rogue. You'll be Thief Acrobat and you'll find yourself heavily splashing Monk over Rogue as it provides more utility and survival. It's just hard to justify getting a lot of levels into Rogue at this point.

patang01
10-21-2014, 01:21 PM
Casters can do that, and they can do it much more effectively without drawing aggro from the entire area or having to worry about stealth first. Plus.. you know, casters?

Fighter has to worry about crit and there is no argument there. However THF fighters can still churn out a VERY healthy amount of damage even without crits. Power Attack, Weapon Specialization, and their various Fighter Enhancements do some amazing things for them. When you're looking at Paladins though the bonus Light Damage can wreck some serious face.

All true, but fighters should be specialist at melee dps, just as casters should be experts at CC and caster DPS. The problem isn't that rogues are bad at their role, there's just not enough content where they can be that role, such as assassin. Basically most of the content we have lacks any need for strategy or tactics other than remove trap followed by rapid DPS. So in essence the problem isn't the lack of DPS on behalf of rogues - there's no content that makes rogues pivotal enough for their role.

moo_cow
10-21-2014, 01:29 PM
This was included in their survey results from the Balance thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/439018-Player-Character-Balance?p=5301734&viewfull=1#post5301734):

https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/ClassPowerAverages.png



I would hope that would not be the order of class updates because that chart is not a very good representation of class power.

Fvs the 4th most powerful class? That's a joke.
Monk being the 2nd most powerful class? No. Monkchers are incredibly powerful, but that is not a very good indication of melee monks overall.

Monkey-Boy
10-21-2014, 01:31 PM
The problem being that it's not comparable to a real DPS fighter.

That's simply not true at all.

Monkey-Boy
10-21-2014, 01:33 PM
I would hope that would not be the order of class updates because that chart is not a very good representation of class power.

Fvs the 4th most powerful class? That's a joke.
Monk being the 2nd most powerful class? No. Monkchers are incredibly powerful, but that is not a very good indication of melee monks overall.

I was thinking the same thing, yes bards and paladins were the weakest but after that it's looking questionable. Artis more powerful than rangers?

But it is the result of a players survey, which is why it's always best to vote early and vote often.

janave
10-21-2014, 01:46 PM
1. Improved game stability, the last hotfix, u23p1 pulled the last leg the client stood on

2. Barbarian and Fighter trees built so that 12+ levels of the class are increasingly attractive, as a viable alternative to multiclassing them.

2.1. Leave 1 tree open/class for more multiclassy oriented in both above classes.

3. Barbarian Occult Slayer should be effective from lvl6, increasingly more effective vs caster type mobs at the trade of less physical resistances. Consider adding stances similar to mediation of war, that have meaningful tradeoffs to balance attractive abilities.

4. Review loot to support the revised class trees.

5. Improve random loot, open up communication for both randgen and cannith crafting.

6. Fix some old features.

7. Add some storage space for everyone.

***
As an unrelated response, we casters can spam low sp 3-4-6-8 spells for crazy amounts of damage from range, often critting for 2k+, ranged, aoe, etc.. people who still think Fighters are DPS need to take a good journey thru the other classes, get some free metas on those low hanging SLAs, some randgen stick with high spell power, and rethink.

Fighter DPS is meager since it does not scale, everyone can produce big numbers when critting on helpless mobs using destiny clikies.

Heck, even Harper is a better melee tree than Fighter ones, at least it scales on every hit, not just criticals.

One day they need to stop buffing casters, and caster hybrids with pretty much any change they introduce....

Ghlitch
10-21-2014, 02:18 PM
Go play a low level Rogue with deception items and then fight undead, see what happens.

Pick up precision as a feat. It allows you to crit practically everything including undead.

Gloomfall
10-21-2014, 02:37 PM
Pick up precision as a feat. It allows you to crit practically everything including undead.

I've got precision. I'm on my 6th life as a Rogue and I find it harder and harder to justify getting the Rogue levels.

Monkey-Boy
10-21-2014, 02:40 PM
As an unrelated response, we casters can spam low sp 3-4-6-8 spells for crazy amounts of damage from range, often critting for 2k+, ranged, aoe, etc.. people who still think Fighters are DPS need to take a good journey thru the other classes, get some free metas on those low hanging SLAs, some randgen stick with high spell power, and rethink.

Fighter DPS is meager since it does not scale, everyone can produce big numbers when critting on helpless mobs using destiny clikies.

Heck, even Harper is a better melee tree than Fighter ones, at least it scales on every hit, not just criticals.

One day they need to stop buffing casters, and caster hybrids with pretty much any change they introduce....

Does anyone agree with this assessment?

Gloomfall
10-21-2014, 02:57 PM
Does anyone agree with this assessment?

I do.

patang01
10-21-2014, 03:20 PM
Does anyone agree with this assessment?

Sounds about right, but the casters are what they are today because they're not limited by resources anymore. I hate spell drain features btw and things like intercession, but there has to be other way to limit or at least have casters be more careful with their resources.

Monkey-Boy
10-21-2014, 03:33 PM
Sounds about right, but the casters are what they are today because they're not limited by resources anymore. I hate spell drain features btw and things like intercession, but there has to be other way to limit or at least have casters be more careful with their resources.

I don't agree, of course that's assuming people aren't chugging pots obtained questionably.

Lonnbeimnech
10-21-2014, 03:39 PM
Does anyone agree with this assessment?

I used to agree with it. In heroic it's true. In epic hard it's true. In low level EE, it's also true. In high level EE, doing 2k damage on a crit to mobs that have 8k hp you suddenly don't feel so godmode. Then you see a hill giant with 400k hp and someone says up here there's a safe spot, so you all go up there and keep casting and keep casting. and 7 or 8 min later he finally dies, and you are out of sp with no shrine in sight.

Then you come back at some point on a melee dps, and the same fight takes about a min, and you say to yourself, oh that's what DPS means.

Rangers on the other hand would finish that fight in 20 seconds, because they have such high burst dps. But all those 8k hp mobs take much longer to finish, because you end up saving the burst DPS for a worthy target.

Inoukchuk
10-21-2014, 04:36 PM
What I'm hoping (and expecting) from the healing amp in barb trees statment is that barbs will continue to NOT have any self-healing and no casting abilities while raged - and in return will be compensated with by far the best melee DPS in the game - barb rage needs a significant buff. Also dodge, nice PRR and huge HP so they can stay alive in EE. The big heal amp will allow them to easily be healed from outside sources. Should give them nice synergy with divines.

Speaking as someone who primarily plays clerics, I think this game needs to see the classic triangle of group play become a viable playstyle again. Me and a lot of others are sick of this forced 100% BYOH environment all the time.

I'm not for nerfing BYOH, but BYOH should not be the only viable way to play the game. The classic triangle should not be forced on those who want to play a BYOH game, but it should be a viable option in DDO for those who want to play that way. Right now it just isn't viable as there is there is practically nothing to be gained by giving up self-healing on any toon - a buffed barb rage could finally be a reason to do so.

Giving barbs reliable self-healing or taking away the rage penalties would be a mistake as it would make them too much like fighters. Lets keep barbs unique. I want to see more class diversity in DDO, not just a slightly different version of a fighter.

Realistically a barbarian is just a fighter without any actual training, and barbarian bodies littered historical battlefields like popcorn. So really I'm fine with them sucking, as I always disliked the class from a lore perspective and see no need for it in the game. It exists primarily because of Conan as far as I can tell.

That said, there is no game-mechanic inspiration to play the class either right now. Making armor better put them even further behind I think. They'll need some love if they're going to be playable. I'm just not sure what kind of love at this point.

Arlathen
10-21-2014, 04:40 PM
He's actually had that title since he joined the DDO team. :) I wouldn't read too much into it. U24 will focus on the Barbarian, in regard to class updates.Is there any news on if Rangers will get a look? We (gratefully, I might add) had some polish to two melee abilities with U23, but they could definitely do with a 'once over'......

Gloomfall
10-21-2014, 04:57 PM
Realistically a barbarian is just a fighter without any actual training, and barbarian bodies littered historical battlefields like popcorn. So really I'm fine with them sucking, as I always disliked the class from a lore perspective and see no need for it in the game. It exists primarily because of Conan as far as I can tell.

That said, there is no game-mechanic inspiration to play the class either right now. Making armor better put them even further behind I think. They'll need some love if they're going to be playable. I'm just not sure what kind of love at this point.

Realistically Paladin and Cleric prayers went unanswered and anyone who attempted to "Cast a spell" on the battlefield was just seen as crazy. Battlefields were littered with their corpses too. Thankfully we're playing a fantasy game that isn't based on real world history. :D

Oxarhamar
10-21-2014, 05:28 PM
I would hope that would not be the order of class updates because that chart is not a very good representation of class power.

Fvs the 4th most powerful class? That's a joke.
Monk being the 2nd most powerful class? No. Monkchers are incredibly powerful, but that is not a very good indication of melee monks overall.

That chart is a result of player feedback in the survey.

You have to remember that at the time of the survey 2Monk splash was extremely popular, considered OP and hated by many on the forums. The results reflect those opinions.

Inoukchuk
10-21-2014, 05:30 PM
Realistically Paladin and Cleric prayers went unanswered and anyone who attempted to "Cast a spell" on the battlefield was just seen as crazy. Battlefields were littered with their corpses too. Thankfully we're playing a fantasy game that isn't based on real world history. :D

Fair enough...

I just never saw a need for a barbarian class. Who asked the question "if we made a fighter illiterate, impulsive, and untrained, what upside would he get?" and then decided this was significantly different than accomplishing the same thing with feats as a fighter? But....it's old school and for some reason I fail to comprehend people like playing it (okay, I do comprehend it, I just don't like calling people I don't know munchkin gamers).

PuppiesAndRainbows
10-21-2014, 05:31 PM
1. Finish the airship changes/fixes (three finger Thads needs a jewelry broker) I wish there was a gift shop like the one in Ataraxia's Havenn in Thads.

2. Update Reaver's Refuge Prey on the Hunter so that if the dragon dies it is only a lost of XP, and not a quest failure. Take timer off Stealer of Souls.

3. Some sort of lighting. I'm still bummed about losing Archon light.

4. A follow option for players and mules. If a hireling can follow so can a client.

5. Different top decks for airships. The smaller ships top decks are easier/faster to move around on.

6. Some way to save appearance settings and quick bar assignments when TR or LR.

7. Bring back the fun Update 14 Weapon prefixes/suffixes.

8. Do something about the unique items that don't stack and clutter up inventory. Like with Reaver's Refuge - some items go into bags, others do not. No clear rhyme or reason as to why some items going into bags and others into inventory.

9. Something to entice new players to try the game.

Oxarhamar
10-21-2014, 05:53 PM
Realistically a barbarian is just a fighter without any actual training, and barbarian bodies littered historical battlefields like popcorn. So really I'm fine with them sucking, as I always disliked the class from a lore perspective and see no need for it in the game. It exists primarily because of Conan as far as I can tell.

That said, there is no game-mechanic inspiration to play the class either right now. Making armor better put them even further behind I think. They'll need some love if they're going to be playable. I'm just not sure what kind of love at this point.

historically speaking Barbarians was just a term used to describe those raiders outside the Roman Empire

The Gauls, Visigoths, Franks, Saxons, etc... to say they were untrained is inaccurate while they likely had less org ibises training than the Roman Army.


Still Historicly speaking DnD Barbarians are more closely based on Viking Berzerkrrs who had much training in thier clans where some duels could lead to death of both combatants. berzerkers would go into battle with no Armor working themselves into a trance live frenzy before battle some times cutting themselves.

Oxarhamar
10-21-2014, 06:07 PM
9. Something to entice new players to try the game.

First they would need to know the game even ex sister which means adverts (not just being featured on MMO blogs from time to time.

Warner Brothers owns Turbine now don't see why there are no commercials for any games on thier channels. It seams like it would be self severely to advert a company you own.

Dagolar
10-21-2014, 06:26 PM
Realistically a barbarian is just a fighter without any actual training, and barbarian bodies littered historical battlefields like popcorn. So really I'm fine with them sucking, as I always disliked the class from a lore perspective and see no need for it in the game. It exists primarily because of Conan as far as I can tell.
.

This is false. Barbarians [in D&D] are generally based on the Gallic Tribes of Western Europe, down to the animism belief structure. These tribes were 'feared and respected' by the Roman Empire.

Other notable historic barbarians include:
Mongols.
Huns.
Vikings.


Even Gladiators often fall under the umbrella of 'Barbarian', despite having often having sophisticated combat techniques, due to their rough manner of combat.


Furthermore, you're incorrect about the assumption that barbarians were incapable fighters.

Barbarians typically could out-fight any knight or common soldier [a benefit of being raised in a society dedicated to combat], and were feared for their ability to do so [this far most notably for Vikings- though given that Vikings generally targeted villagers, it's sort of an unreliable element. (They were at least capable enough to claim Normandy, at least). Luckily, in the fiction of D&D, we can assume reality without having to worry about how much historically was just stories to generate fear].

What they LACKED was a grasp of overall military tactics, and the superior command structure of organized warfare was what caused them to fail time and again.


Later on, advancements in military technology also aided organized warfare against barbarians.

But in terms of raw combat ability, a barbarian generally could overtake a single cultured combatant [and, while the overall scope of wars favored the cultured- whom, naturally, further colored the events to their favor- there are numerous individual battles that emphasize the battle force superiority of barbarians].

D&D does a reasonable job of expressing this, through barbarians shrugging off damage with a grin and emphasizing ferocity, and having more hit points as a representation of their development in a warrior culture.
Meanwhile fighters benefit from technology [better armor, etc] and combat tactics [far more so in PnP], and even the ability to 'master' individual combat styles, as a representation of how culture can benefit such developments.


You can HATE barbarians all you want, there's no reason to stop you.
At the moment, however, you're doing it under a false premise.

Scrabbler
10-21-2014, 06:40 PM
This is false. Barbarians [in D&D] are generally based on the Gallic Tribes of Western Europe, down to the animism belief structure. These tribes were 'feared and respected' by the Roman Empire.
Sorry, nope. The Barbarian character class was added to AD&D in the 1980s Unearthed Arcana, and it was undeniably derived from Conan, all the way down to refusing to join parties with a Wizard and bypassing creature DR without needing a magic weapon.

There is no "animism belief structure" in either the current or past D&D Barbarian class.

Dagolar
10-21-2014, 06:44 PM
Sorry, nope. The Barbarian character class was added to AD&D in the 1980s Unearthed Arcana, and it was undeniably derived from Conan, all the way down to refusing to join parties with a Wizard and bypassing creature DR without needing a magic weapon.

There is no "animism belief structure" in either the current or past D&D Barbarian class.

I played with the original Unearthed Arcana, and you're accurate about that.
But those barbarians also 'ate magic', among other things.

Those barbarians are rather different from later versions.

And while the player handbook doesn't address the animism, many of their prestige classes- and most of the novels related to barbarians in the Forgotten Realms- directly address it.

Given that DDO uses 3.5 barbarians, I decided to address that perspective, rather than one from the 1980s.

Sorry :X


I do miss being able to eat magic items, though..


[Of course, then there's the Dark Sun setting barbarian cannibal halflings, if you want to go to yet another perspective on barbarians.
Likewise, most barbarians in Eberron are hallings from the Talenta plains (who ride dinosaurs, btw).
Neither of those have any real bearing on DDO barbarians (or the perspective against historic barbarians that was presented), which is why, again, I didn't reference them.]

DakFrost
10-21-2014, 08:36 PM
I would hope that would not be the order of class updates because that chart is not a very good representation of class power.

Fvs the 4th most powerful class? That's a joke.
Monk being the 2nd most powerful class? No. Monkchers are incredibly powerful, but that is not a very good indication of melee monks overall.

I agree. That chart is a joke.

I don't think the Devs actually know what classes are running end game. It's like they surveyed a group of new players that made it to level 10.

xberto
10-21-2014, 10:11 PM
The Barbarian class should be the one without any healing... it doesn't make sense if every single class has healing features. Instead, they should add affordable items (sold for plat) which can provide anyone with acceptable healing (within appropriate limits)

Agreed a pure bard should not have any self healing built into tree. Barb should be all about DPS. Massive DPS. No class should be able melee a Barb and loss of healing power is the price. Maybe some bonus healing from potions would be Ok..

moo_cow
10-21-2014, 10:30 PM
I agree. That chart is a joke.

I don't think the Devs actually know what classes are running end game. It's like they surveyed a group of new players that made it to level 10.

Haha, this cracked me up.

kmoustakas
10-22-2014, 10:07 AM
Want a suggestion for update 24? Update loot please because it's mostly terrible. Even the random +10 +10 items have some weirdness for example why can't you have a deadly of seeking?

Lonnbeimnech
10-22-2014, 10:18 AM
Want a suggestion for update 24? Update loot please because it's mostly terrible. Even the random +10 +10 items have some weirdness for example why can't you have a deadly of seeking?

I was thinking about this the other day. It is annoying that even named items, instead of having a few abilities that work well together, like a seeker item with exceptional seeker, they are instead a bunch of seemingly random stuff stuck on there to justify the high ML. But you end up with several items that offer redundant abilities, just because there is one ability on them that you do want.

More stuff like this would be nice.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Treads_of_Falling_Shadow_%28Level_25%29
When it came out it was a one stop item for dex. Unfortunately it quickly became dated, with +11 items and +4 insightful available elsewhere, though obviously not on the one item...

Qhualor
10-22-2014, 11:51 AM
I was thinking about this the other day. It is annoying that even named items, instead of having a few abilities that work well together, like a seeker item with exceptional seeker, they are instead a bunch of seemingly random stuff stuck on there to justify the high ML. But you end up with several items that offer redundant abilities, just because there is one ability on them that you do want.

More stuff like this would be nice.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Treads_of_Falling_Shadow_%28Level_25%29
When it came out it was a one stop item for dex. Unfortunately it quickly became dated, with +11 items and +4 insightful available elsewhere, though obviously not on the one item...

I can agree with that. The other day I went to wiki and looked up items to update my characters end game gear. I do that every update when new loot comes out so I can keep an eye out on AH or know which quests I want to specifically run while I level. I ended up with 4 named items that have vitality +40.

Vellrad
10-22-2014, 12:31 PM
If you would have 1 uber item with all things gearing would be too easy.
Planning gear set up and what to fit where, and what to sacrifice is part of the game.

cherokee83pride
10-23-2014, 12:08 PM
He's actually had that title since he joined the DDO team. :) I wouldn't read too much into it. U24 will focus on the Barbarian, in regard to class updates.

Any inkling that there may be an Iconic Dwarf to come out for Barb's, like Battlerager? C'mon would be awesome to have Barb's modeled after Pwent Thibbledorf and his Gutbusters. That would so fit in Faerun and Thunderholme stuff... #DroolingAtTheThought of Battlerager Dwarf Barbarian Iconics <3

gemineye
10-23-2014, 01:38 PM
I've been looking for a thread to let folks know about this, and this thread seems to fit just fine: We are planning to post up some feedback threads later this week on our plans for the Barbarian enhancement trees (Frenzied Berserker, Occult Slayer and Ravager.) When they are posted, we'd love to get your feedback on the ideas. Thanks!
Are we there yet? Are we there yet?

esojiul
10-23-2014, 10:06 PM
Keep the old healing amplication, give them on the enham healing amplication+50%dodge+ more hp 60%+20%more dmg

Leclaire1
10-24-2014, 08:22 AM
I've been looking for a thread to let folks know about this, and this thread seems to fit just fine: We are planning to post up some feedback threads later this week on our plans for the Barbarian enhancement trees (Frenzied Berserker, Occult Slayer and Ravager.) When they are posted, we'd love to get your feedback on the ideas. Thanks!

I'll be interested to see what the proposed changes are. I'm a bit nervous however, that it seems like the changes to Barbarian seem to be focused wholly in the enhancements. While some of the enhancements could use a bit of improvement (eg., a completionist who played all classes pure said Storm's Eye is the worst of all capstones), I think the fundamental problem with the Barbarian class in the state of ddo now is in regards to its complete lack of self-sufficiency on account of it being the only class which lacks strong self-healing options while raging (and a Barb who isn't raging isn't particularly useful). The limitation regarding using scrolls, spells, cocoon, etc while raging is certainly very true to lore, but is a huge liability in the current social environment of ddo. Barbarians have always had the power to do damage, but as they can't heal themselves except through potions (a recent addition), they are completely dependent on other players or hirelings to keep them up.

I realize that in the theory-crafting world of the ivory tower there shouldn't be any problem with this. In a group based game, it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect that if, say, a barbarian can do the damage of two people, that it would be a worthwhile trade off to have him or her be dependent on a dedicated healer who will keep him or her up. Yet in the current social environment of ddo, no one wants to be "that guy" who often dies if he is not nannied by a healer, allowed to bring along a hireling, or is constantly forced to limit his or her damage/kill potential by constantly disengaging and dropping rage in order to take advantage of more substantial self-healing options. These problems are compounded be the fact that Barbarians pay a steep price for every bit of power they get, such as in the FB tree where they are forced to constantly damage or debuff themselves for every advantage they get, a sacrifice other classes do not need to make (eg, the Paladin Holy Sword ability has no such tradeoff and is far superior to critical rages and the like). Even if some of these factors are rectified via the enhancement trees, Barbarians will still be squishier than most in that they do not innately have evasion or the use of heavy armor, and thus have no way to take advantage of the increased defenses available to other classes without splashing or spending one of too few feats on heavy armor.

In short, whatever changes are made to the enhancements, I cannot see a way forward in the current social environment of ddo for Barbs unless the ban on self-healing during rages is removed. I'll be honest, as a pnp vet who cares about lore and team play I don't want things to be this way, I wish the current ban could be realistic in the current state of the game. Yet as a player I can never see myself playing a Barb in the current game due to the discourtesy I feel like I would be doing to people I would often group with, and this tells me something. I hope the devs are at least taking these things into consideration.

Thar
10-24-2014, 12:14 PM
I've been looking for a thread to let folks know about this, and this thread seems to fit just fine: We are planning to post up some feedback threads later this week on our plans for the Barbarian enhancement trees (Frenzied Berserker, Occult Slayer and Ravager.) When they are posted, we'd love to get your feedback on the ideas. Thanks!

hey it's later this week!!

Qhualor
10-24-2014, 12:56 PM
hey it's later this week!!

Yep. Thought Sev would have it up yesterday. Didn't see it. So it must be today. Its not right to keep me in suspense like this when I've been waiting patiently a few months for this thread :)

PsychoBlonde
10-24-2014, 03:15 PM
I'll be interested to see what the proposed changes are. I'm a bit nervous however, that it seems like the changes to Barbarian seem to be focused wholly in the enhancements. While some of the enhancements could use a bit of improvement (eg., a completionist who played all classes pure said Storm's Eye is the worst of all capstones), I think the fundamental problem with the Barbarian class in the state of ddo now is in regards to its complete lack of self-sufficiency on account of it being the only class which lacks strong self-healing options while raging (and a Barb who isn't raging isn't particularly useful). The limitation regarding using scrolls, spells, cocoon, etc while raging is certainly very true to lore, but is a huge liability in the current social environment of ddo. Barbarians have always had the power to do damage, but as they can't heal themselves except through potions (a recent addition), they are completely dependent on other players or hirelings to keep them up.

I realize that in the theory-crafting world of the ivory tower there shouldn't be any problem with this. In a group based game, it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect that if, say, a barbarian can do the damage of two people, that it would be a worthwhile trade off to have him or her be dependent on a dedicated healer who will keep him or her up. Yet in the current social environment of ddo, no one wants to be "that guy" who often dies if he is not nannied by a healer, allowed to bring along a hireling, or is constantly forced to limit his or her damage/kill potential by constantly disengaging and dropping rage in order to take advantage of more substantial self-healing options. These problems are compounded be the fact that Barbarians pay a steep price for every bit of power they get, such as in the FB tree where they are forced to constantly damage or debuff themselves for every advantage they get, a sacrifice other classes do not need to make (eg, the Paladin Holy Sword ability has no such tradeoff and is far superior to critical rages and the like). Even if some of these factors are rectified via the enhancement trees, Barbarians will still be squishier than most in that they do not innately have evasion or the use of heavy armor, and thus have no way to take advantage of the increased defenses available to other classes without splashing or spending one of too few feats on heavy armor.

In short, whatever changes are made to the enhancements, I cannot see a way forward in the current social environment of ddo for Barbs unless the ban on self-healing during rages is removed. I'll be honest, as a pnp vet who cares about lore and team play I don't want things to be this way, I wish the current ban could be realistic in the current state of the game. Yet as a player I can never see myself playing a Barb in the current game due to the discourtesy I feel like I would be doing to people I would often group with, and this tells me something. I hope the devs are at least taking these things into consideration.

I think you have some good points here, but I also think you don't really grasp just how far they can go with this. And the other class revisions haven't JUST been enhancements--they've also made changes to spells and class features.

There are potions available in the game that *even without substantial healing amp* can heal you for a worthwhile amount even on epic elite. And I'm not talking about silver flame potions, either. People ignore the collectibles turn in potions all the time, but they're so very easy to get and heal you an impressive amount. It's just over time instead of instantaneous. WITH some healing amp, it's AMAZING.

Even *medium* armor can give you serious amounts of damage resistance now. You don't need 250 PRR. 50 is still a great plenty, particularly with some decent DR to back it up. And DR is something that needs looking at--4/- just ain't what it used to be.

I've made a great many suggestions elsewhere, but here are some again:

Bring in the Frenzied Berserker ability where you literally CANNOT DIE while Frenzied. Yeah, once the enemies are dead you're looking at some problems, but you should have at least a little time either to pot yourself up or hoof it to a shrine before you bite it. And with ship buffs no longer going away when you die, it just doesn't matter that much any more if you're up and down. It's not DYING that's a pain, it's that somebody else has to interrupt what they're doing to COME GET YOU that's annoying--esp. since 90% of the time when people die they're alone off in some inaccessible part of the quest at the bottom of a spike pit or some similar bit of nonsense.

Give them some sort of dervish-like ability where they can attack while moving in such a way that they can avoid most mob attacks simply by being out of reach. Or, heck, give barbarians greater reach and decrease the reach on some mobs. I don't know if it's latency or what but I can't tell you how often I'll be 30' or more away from a mob and they'll STILL be hitting me. Maybe that'd be a good unique aspect for barbarians: circle-strafing. Instead of standing in one place going whack whack whack they are constantly moving, whirling their big axe or sword around with terrifying momentum while avoiding attacks. And I can't tell you the number of people who DON'T USE Uncanny and Improved Uncanny dodge. It's 50% dodge, for crying out loud! Yeah it has a cooldown but it's not that long! It's certainly long enough for a high-dps character to dispatch a group of mobs. Heh, they could even COMBINE this with Frenzied Berserker--call it something like "ain't got time to bleed" where as long as you keep moving around fast enough, you're okay, but once you stop you feel all your injuries and ow ow ow ow. Kind of the Barbarian-as-meth-addict ethos, I guess. I have no idea how you'd go about coding something like that into this game. Maybe make it so that MOVING builds up temp HP for you. THAT could be a neat thing and it would be *completely* unique to Barbarian in this game, leading to an absolutely unique gameplay STYLE. It has to be doable because they already have ranged abilities that only work when you stand still, so the converse type of ability HAS to be possible. You could also hook additional benefits onto their "moving buff" like extra dodge, extra prr, etc. It'd be like defensive stance for paladins and fighters only with its own twist. Give them a long-cooldown instant where they can kickstart their stacks.

That would also be a good opportunity to rework how TUMBLE works to make it actually functional with combat. As it is now, with the fact that you have to PRECISELY time the key-presses to tumble several times in succession and that you have to START a tumble from a dead halt make it basically worthless. The way it should work is, if you're already moving and hit the block key, you should tumble. Instantly. No pausing, no dropping into block mode, just TUMBLE. If you hold down move and hit the block key, you should tumble repeatedly. It shouldn't be Stop-block-okay NOW I'll tumble.

Adrenaline should work with Cleave and Great Cleave the way it works with Manyshot--ALL of the attacks should proc the Adrenaline effect, NOT just the first one to land. This isn't just useful for damage (although it is) but also because there's a nifty ability in Fury of the Wild that KNOCKS DOWN enemies if they get hit with Adrenaline. Do this, and suddenly that tree is MUCH more effective for melee barbarians because they get some CROWD CONTROL out of it. Now they are actually devastating to GROUPS of enemies, which are also the worst bane of the barbarian because they chew through his health like crazy.

I would have suggested knockback except I know what a horror that would be in this game with required enemies getting pushed through walls where they cannot be accessed. If it wasn't so problematic for the game I would also suggest something like a "wall of steel" that forces enemies into a cone in front of you instead of letting them spread out and surround you--now a single barbarian can hold a choke point easily because enemies can't ooze past him.

Barbarians could make use of an underused game feature--fear effects. More in the "cowering" sort of way than the "running away" because we all know how annoying mobs are when they run away.

That's kind of my vision for the barbarian: a fear-spewing, fast-moving, annihilating-entire-groups-with-a-single-cleave whirlwind of destruction.

bennyson
10-24-2014, 04:23 PM
Here's an idea...

A dragon with a FREAKING LESSAR BEAM ON ITS HEAD!

elg582
10-29-2014, 11:07 AM
Update 24 suggestion:

Reverse everything you have done in the last 10 updates.