View Full Version : Epic Arcane Metamagic - Permanency

10-10-2014, 11:21 AM
I think it could be neat if arcanes at epic level were able to cast with permanency.
WHAT!?!?!?! That's insane!!!!
Yeah yeah, I know what the initial reaction is. It's exploitable etc etc.
What I have in mind is actually more subtle than the actual tabletop equivalent.
First, It's limited to spells that can only be cast in instances, and only remains permanent in those specific instances.
Second, it's only for spells with a duration.
Third, it cannot be friend,self target spells. (would be nice but most of the ones you would want already have 30+ minute durations on an actual arcane)

Some more specifics:
Extreme casting time modifier. In PnP this is usually a long ongoing ritual. So yeah, you could set up that never-ending Cloudkill.. but it'll take forever.
Huge mana drain. As above but it'll also take a huge chunk of your blue bar. Alternatively, as long as it's active it has an ongoing cost of 1sp/min per caster level (suggestion only).
+3 Caster Levels to the spell. (suggestion only - The thinking is that it is prepared with greater care and is tended to be tougher to dispell).

So, what do I have in mind with this?
Well, the obvious uses are damage type effects like Wall of Flame, Ice Storm, etc. However, in most cases, this will actually be counter productive as the caster will likely be interrupted/lose concentration and not need the spell for longer than a few minutes.
Okay.. so what's the point?
Elaborate spell-casting. Raid level crowd control. Arcane Soloing. Utility.
Examples - Dancing Sphere, Web, Glitterdust = Create a safe room. Cloudkill, Incendiary Cloud, Sleet Storm = Create a drag and kill room for mobs.
Hypnotic Pattern, Dancing Sphere, Glitterdust = Create a disco!

There are other uses and these examples would all take several minutes or longer to set up. In most parties these spells would NEVER see use. However, having the ability to make them permanent means the arcane can hang back a minute to set up something like this or if soloing, can take the time to set up this area before starting off.

I realize the responses will range from "What's the point" to "That would be OP" or whatever, and that's fine. What I really want to hear is actual thoughts on why this wouldn't be worth while. Honestly, most of my desire for this is to add flavor and complexity, which are things that a lot of the playerbase seem to be strictly against. So, what are the thoughts from guys and gals in the forums?

10-10-2014, 11:49 AM
I see permanency as being more for buff spells rather than offensive spells. A caster with Permanency can cast any buff he or she has on themselves, and this buff will persist through almost everything. Spell cost is 0, but an additional side effect is on the buff itself: max SP is reduced by the buff's SP cost until the buff is dispelled by anti magic, or by re-casting the buff.

10-10-2014, 12:08 PM
It's a 5th level spell, not an epic meta magic feat.

It's bad enough that instead of giving casters level 10 spells, they have to spend feats on them. But to do that for level 5 spells too?

It really wouldn't be overpowered anyway, the buffs can still be dispelled even if permanent. A permanent firewall can still be extinguished with an ice storm, and a permanent ice storm can be blown out with a gust of wind etc.

10-10-2014, 12:23 PM
I'd rather they just made Extend work like it used to, sorry.

Edit: which is not, I hasten to add, to say that I don't think your idea is intriguing.

10-10-2014, 02:17 PM
Here's the practical problem I see with this idea...

Like you mention, its not really useful for offensive spells. The game moves forward too fast to really need permanent AOE offensive/CC spells; the standard duration is about all you really need for most fights, and for the few exceptions like bosses, its not a big deal to recast it as needed. The only time I really see it being useful is in point-defense quests, but there are few of those - and I can see it being used as more of an exploit than a legit gameplay mechanic there, ie cast a bunch of AOEs everywhere and then just go AFK and let them do all the work.

Like others have said, it makes more sense to use it to extend powerful short-duration buffs - but most of those dont fit into the "cant cast in public" category so you wouldnt be able to apply Permanency to them anyway.

Lastly, it also raises the possibility of deliberate server crashing with AOE effects like Disco Ball. Right now I think the most you can have is about 15 at a time (80 sec duration, 5.5 sec CD for Sorcs). The server can handle that. But if they're permanent, you could fill a room with so many disco balls and other AOE effects that the server crashes the moment a mob spawns (similar to the problem that made them shut down Mabar for good). Thats the kind of backdoor that dupers love to use, for one...for two, some people are just hass-oles and like to crash the server :)

10-10-2014, 04:13 PM
I can see it now, Devils Assault, EH:

2 Disco Balls in the center,

1 Disco ball at each portal.

Cloudkill / Ice Storm on each discoball with Auras going. I could go and take a shower, make dinner, and yell at the kids before the quest was over and never have to actually be there for a completion.

Yeah…I like the idea, but you’d better limit it…

10-11-2014, 09:40 AM
What I really want to hear is actual thoughts on why this wouldn't be worth while. Because it's a dumb idea. That is why it isn't worth while.

Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: 2 rounds
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: Permanent; see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell makes certain other spells permanent.

Depending on the spell, you must be of a minimum caster level and must expend a number of XP.

You can make the following spells permanent in regard to yourself.

Spell Minimum Caster Level XP Cost
Arcane sight 11th 1,500 XP
Comprehend languages 9th 500 XP
Darkvision 10th 1,000 XP
Detect magic 9th 500 XP
Read magic 9th 500 XP
See invisibility 10th 1,000 XP
Tongues 11th 1,500 XP
You cast the desired spell and then follow it with the permanency spell. You cannot cast these spells on other creatures. This application of permanency can be dispelled only by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell.

In addition to personal use, permanency can be used to make the following spells permanent on yourself, another creature, or an object (as appropriate).

Spell Minimum Caster Level XP Cost
Only bonds two creatures per casting of permanency.
Enlarge person 9th 500 XP
Magic fang 9th 500 XP
Magic fang, greater 11th 1,500 XP
Reduce person 9th 500 XP
Resistance 9th 500 XP
Telepathic bond1 13th 2,500 XP
Additionally, the following spells can be cast upon objects or areas only and rendered permanent.

Spell Minimum Caster Level XP Cost
Alarm 9th 500 XP
Animate objects 14th 3,000 XP
Dancing lights 9th 500 XP
Ghost sound 9th 500 XP
Gust of wind 11th 1,500 XP
Invisibility 10th 1,000 XP
Mage’s private sanctum 13th 2,500 XP
Magic mouth 10th 1,000 XP
Phase door 15th 3,500 XP
Prismatic sphere 17th 4,500 XP
Prismatic wall 16th 4,000 XP
Shrink item 11th 1,500 XP
Solid fog 12th 2,000 XP
Stinking cloud 11th 1,500 XP
Symbol of death 16th 4,000 XP
Symbol of fear 14th 3,000 XP
Symbol of insanity 16th 4,000 XP
Symbol of pain 13th 2,500 XP
Symbol of persuasion 14th 3,000 XP
Symbol of sleep 16th 4,000 XP
Symbol of stunning 15th 3,500 XP
Symbol of weakness 15th 3,500 XP
Teleportation circle 17th 4,500 XP
Wall of fire 12th 2,000 XP
Wall of force 13th 2,500 XP
Web 10th 1,000 XP
Spells cast on other creatures, objects, or locations (not on you) are vulnerable to dispel magic as normal.

XP Cost
See tables above.