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Spoonwelder
10-08-2014, 03:12 PM
Ok just doing some initial planning for my next life....I have two paths to choose from.

Vanguard or BardBarian in DC for now I have questions about Vanguard

Vanguard Math
Shield bash - I think it can get up to 80% proc which is closing in on TWF then add the 15% speed bonus and 20MP and you far surpass TWF

Bash bonuses
20% Improved Shield Bash
20% Item - Aegis or Bulwark
40% Vanguard (30 in core 10 in tier 5)
---
80% total

Double strike
8% Improved Shield Mastery
7% Legendary Shield Mastery (twist?)
10% Zeal
5-15% item
9% Martial past lives
-----
39-49% walk around
50% temporary from DC Zeal
89-99% total

If my math is right I can see this as being a very high DPS build - the only downside is that the two shields providing bashing aren't anything spectacular from a DPS output point of view.

Am I missing anything?

Grailhawk
10-08-2014, 03:18 PM
You are aware that there is a hard cap of one per second on shield bash?

Spoonwelder
10-08-2014, 03:58 PM
Ok - so a high proc rate isn't that important hmph.....well I will try it out and see anyway....just another etr....

Grailhawk
10-08-2014, 04:27 PM
Ok - so a high proc rate isn't that important hmph.....well I will try it out and see anyway....just another etr....

No a high proc rate is very important you want to get it to proc as close to 1 per second as possilbe, its just not as clearly better then TWF as you made it out to be.

Rull posted math on this that figured out what the optimal % chance is not sure where that thread is think its in Lamania general but not sure.

Found it here it is
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/448524-The-math-behind-shield-bashes

Violith
10-08-2014, 05:51 PM
hmm, I dont think its possible to get a 1/sec shieldbash, so that global CD shouldnt matter to anyone currently. I suppose if you had alot of attack speed from SWF, you could probably get close with swashbuckling and using a buckler, but overall the dps and the protection you'd lose from that just doesnt seem worth it.


bulwark (of the storms fist) doesnt provide a % to bash. so were you talking about another sheild?

Purple Dragon Shield does, and its a nice DPS option since it is a 2.5[2d6] (19-20x2) has improved Bashing X (5d4 extra dmg on sheild bash) and Sovereign Vorpal (vorpal for 300dmg, or killl if enemy below 3khp), plus it can be upgrade to provide an +8 orb bonus (saving throws/resistances) Which also procs whenever you shieldbash.

redoubt
10-08-2014, 06:21 PM
So is the speed cap on active bashing or on passive bashing?

I thought (though I'm likely incorrect) that the whole point of Vanguard was a passive bash that happens automatically during your attack just like off hand attacks do for a TWF. Basically, making it TWF with a shield in the off hand.

So how is it actually working?

Infiltraitor
10-08-2014, 06:38 PM
From a shield bashing perspective

+1 Multiplier, +1 Range, Holy Sword
+1 Range, Fatal Bulwark
+1 Range, Celestial Champion
x2 Range, Improved Critical Bludgeoning

For your Best Case Scenario

150 Bludgeoning on 2-12/x1
600 Bludgeoning on 13-18/x4
750 Bludgeoning on 19-20/x5

337 avg dmg per bash, once per second.

Nightmanis
10-08-2014, 06:53 PM
From a shield bashing perspective

+1 Multiplier, +1 Range, Holy Sword
+1 Range, Fatal Bulwark
+1 Range, Celestial Champion
x2 Range, Improved Critical Bludgeoning

For your Best Case Scenario

150 Bludgeoning on 2-12/x1
600 Bludgeoning on 13-18/x4
750 Bludgeoning on 19-20/x5

337 avg dmg per bash, once per second.

I thought they showed that improved critical didn't actually affect shields. Or was that changed recently?

Because if it was my fighter will be super happy.

Infiltraitor
10-08-2014, 07:19 PM
I thought they showed that improved critical didn't actually affect shields. Or was that changed recently?

Because if it was my fighter will be super happy.

Wait... WHAT? Nvm then. Chop the dps numbers I gave in half.

A-O
10-08-2014, 08:16 PM
From a shield bashing perspective

+1 Multiplier, +1 Range, Holy Sword
+1 Range, Fatal Bulwark
+1 Range, Celestial Champion
x2 Range, Improved Critical Bludgeoning

For your Best Case Scenario

150 Bludgeoning on 2-12/x1
600 Bludgeoning on 13-18/x4
750 Bludgeoning on 19-20/x5

337 avg dmg per bash, once per second.

There's +2 range and +1 multiplier in the vanguard tree (core for +1/+1, and F bulwark for +1 range), so you'll end up at:
20/x3 base
19/x4 holy sword
18/x5 core
17/x5 bulwark
16/x5 DC

Bloodskittle
10-09-2014, 08:44 AM
So I've been playing an 18/2 pally/fighter PDK build, and my initial thought was to use the PDK shield because i thought it would be the best dps shield.
However after a little bit of play testing I've come to the conclusion that in EE content the Aegis actually holds its ground better, The Aegis is a 17-20/x5 weapon which is pretty average compared to the other shields around, however with holy sword applied the base damage rating is 120(ish) before my own damage bonuses are applied, it hits about 160-200 non crit and I've seen it crit as high as 2100. The PDK shield hasn't crit above 800 even under the same conditions. The PDK shield is also slightly less AC but does cover your CHA and CON items if you're tight for gear, the 15% blocking absorb and its other shield affects are great and not to be frowned at, and seeing as I own both I use them both depending on the situation, for instance I find the PDK shield to be better for tanking, but the Aegis better for general questing.

Violith
10-09-2014, 09:15 AM
So I've been playing an 18/2 pally/fighter PDK build, and my initial thought was to use the PDK shield because i thought it would be the best dps shield.
However after a little bit of play testing I've come to the conclusion that in EE content the Aegis actually holds its ground better, The Aegis is a 17-20/x5 weapon which is pretty average compared to the other shields around, however with holy sword applied the base damage rating is 120(ish) before my own damage bonuses are applied, it hits about 160-200 non crit and I've seen it crit as high as 2100. The PDK shield hasn't crit above 800 even under the same conditions. The PDK shield is also slightly less AC but does cover your CHA and CON items if you're tight for gear, the 15% blocking absorb and its other shield affects are great and not to be frowned at, and seeing as I own both I use them both depending on the situation, for instance I find the PDK shield to be better for tanking, but the Aegis better for general questing.

Hmm, yea, didnt notice the crit modifier. so fully upgraded, DR and sheild AC are the same.
+1 Multiplier, +1 Range, +1(W), Holy Sword
+1 Range, Fatal Bulwark
+1 Range, Celestial Champion
+1 critical threat range, +1 critical multiplier, +1(W), Vicious Shield II

aegis is a 2[2d10] 20x3 | 4[2d10] 16-20x5, +2d6, blue augment
PDS is a 2.5[2d6] 19-20x2 | 4.5[2d6] 15-20 x4, +5d4, purple augment (which allows the use of Ruby Augments), +10 Cha/Con, Sovereign Vorpal, Block Elements, +8 orb bonus

so in terms of base damage I can see the aegis pulling ahead due to the crit mod, but the overall ability to deal more damage should go to the PDK due to vorpal (300dmg on a vorpal), and if you slotted a ruby augment in it (which is a 2% chance to deal a min of 1d20/min lvl (lvl26) so 26-520dmg) (I personally like the metoeric ruby (3d6fire,1d6bludge/min lvl so 2% of 78-468fire/26-156bludge, with a knockdown effect) And the ruby eye/metoeric are AOE effects.

Bloodskittle
10-13-2014, 06:40 AM
Hmm, yea, didnt notice the crit modifier. so fully upgraded, DR and sheild AC are the same.
+1 Multiplier, +1 Range, +1(W), Holy Sword
+1 Range, Fatal Bulwark
+1 Range, Celestial Champion
+1 critical threat range, +1 critical multiplier, +1(W), Vicious Shield II

aegis is a 2[2d10] 20x3 | 4[2d10] 16-20x5, +2d6, blue augment
PDS is a 2.5[2d6] 19-20x2 | 4.5[2d6] 15-20 x4, +5d4, purple augment (which allows the use of Ruby Augments), +10 Cha/Con, Sovereign Vorpal, Block Elements, +8 orb bonus

so in terms of base damage I can see the aegis pulling ahead due to the crit mod, but the overall ability to deal more damage should go to the PDK due to vorpal (300dmg on a vorpal), and if you slotted a ruby augment in it (which is a 2% chance to deal a min of 1d20/min lvl (lvl26) so 26-520dmg) (I personally like the metoeric ruby (3d6fire,1d6bludge/min lvl so 2% of 78-468fire/26-156bludge, with a knockdown effect) And the ruby eye/metoeric are AOE effects.

You make a good point with the damage augment, I hadn't thought about that, however the vorpal averages only 15 damage per hit and I can assure you from actual play testing that the Aegis does far and away more than 15 above the PDK.