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View Full Version : Buffs Obsolete



Satyriasys
10-07-2014, 09:34 AM
Buffs have been slowly becoming more and more obsolete. They either offer trivial bonuses at cap or are available on items. Resists, gh, blur and haste used to be very appreciated by groups but now everyone has everything. This has diminished the uniqueness of the classes further watering down the game. Soon this will be a game like Elder Scrolls where there are no classes.

I would suggest giving casters higher level versions of these spells and to stop putting all these unique spells on items. Pretty much anything any class can do can be found on some item to some degree.

Uska
10-07-2014, 10:39 AM
Yes to not putting them on items and taking them out of the ships but no to making them stronger, the only source of the buffs should be a caster (yeah I mean no scrolls either, all casters would get the spell at the appropriate level)

Lonnbeimnech
10-07-2014, 10:49 AM
Though being able to cast those spells whenever you want, even if from a scroll, has the advantage of not using an item slot, so you can put something else there.

Enoach
10-07-2014, 10:52 AM
While I agree that much of the changes with epics have made features available that use to only be available to certain classes and those with UMD

However,

Resists: Have been available at various levels on Items and Potions. From as little as 3 resist to as much as 30 resist. Today gear can get up to 45.

Greater Heroism: While the Potions of GH have only been around since Eveningstar, and the First Gear (armor) was introduced with Wheloon, the Greater Heroism clicky has been around since The Xorian Cipher quest was released (Level 8 Quest)

blur: Became available on an item with the release of the Sands of Menechtarun. The Shroud introduced item crafting which also had a permanent blur capability as well as 2 Displacement clickies of about 1.5 minutes.

haste : Has always been available in 30 minute potions. Newer longer versions have since been introduced. However, haste in 30 second durations has also been available in 1 to 5 Clickies on an item. The Shroud introduced item crafting which also had a 3 Haste Clickies of about 1.5 minutes.

Gear, potions and UMD have been shifting the uniqueness of needing specific buffs from specific classes since the beginning.

In my opinion it was the Guild Ship Buffs that was the biggest contributor of all to "Needing" buffs decline as many Guilds are able to purchase most of the buffs they would need to make certain types of damage less an issue as well as it now not being lost on death or able to be dispelled or blocked by anti magic.

TrinityTurtle
10-07-2014, 10:59 AM
No thank you. I rather enjoy not having to blow a large chunk of mana on my casters before the first monster. I can't disagree more with the idea presented above that the only source for buffs should be...me...in a party. I remember those days when it was way more true than it is now, and it wasn't fun being reduced to a buffbot.

I even more enjoy being able to take the first five or eleven people to hit my lfms and not worry about needing buffs or whatever else. The old way of having to sit around and waiting for someone with a particular spell or skill was boring.

FranOhmsford
10-07-2014, 11:04 AM
Yes to not putting them on items and taking them out of the ships but no to making them stronger, the only source of the buffs should be a caster (yeah I mean no scrolls either, all casters would get the spell at the appropriate level)

Why are you so against strong PnP Elements in DDO Uska?

For an old time D&D Player it's quite strange you'd want not just Hirelings but Scrolls now too removed from DDO?


Allowing everyone and his dog to get UMD was the 1st mistake Turbine made
The 2nd mistake was not giving actual casters the ability to make Scrolls {and wands too} viable in Elite play!


Removing Scrolls entirely is a Knee-Jerk reaction!

kned225
10-07-2014, 11:08 AM
This is the game everyone wanted

Wahhhh..."its NOT FAIR! Why do you make X quest with X mechanic when only X class has that ability?!?!"

Wahhhh... "i wanna SOLO!! I need to be able to do EVERYTHING. I feel discriminated against cuz i wanna SOLO!!"

Too many ingredients = everybody's soup tastes like ****

Satyriasys
10-07-2014, 11:36 AM
No thank you. I rather enjoy not having to blow a large chunk of mana on my casters before the first monster. I can't disagree more with the idea presented above that the only source for buffs should be...me...in a party. I remember those days when it was way more true than it is now, and it wasn't fun being reduced to a buffbot.

I even more enjoy being able to take the first five or eleven people to hit my lfms and not worry about needing buffs or whatever else. The old way of having to sit around and waiting for someone with a particular spell or skill was boring.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Like it or not, buffs are part of the D&D world. You say you don't like using your mana on buffing but in real Dungeons & Dragons you had limited spells and had to choose what to cast carefully. Do you cast a Web to hold the Orc in place or cast Blur on your ally to engage it? This is part of the spell system that is so beloved and help make D&D part of our culture. As they continue to "streamline" this game in a more mainstream direction it may make things easier for you but it is getting less and less like Dungeons & Dragons and more and more like "Generic Fantasy MMO".

Uska
10-07-2014, 12:13 PM
Why are you so against strong PnP Elements in DDO Uska?

For an old time D&D Player it's quite strange you'd want not just Hirelings but Scrolls now too removed from DDO?


Allowing everyone and his dog to get UMD was the 1st mistake Turbine made
The 2nd mistake was not giving actual casters the ability to make Scrolls {and wands too} viable in Elite play!


Removing Scrolls entirely is a Knee-Jerk reaction!

In most of the campaigns I have been in scrolls aren't as common as they are here. I agree casters should be able to make scrolls and wands but they shouldn't be available easier than water is on planet earth. I don't want scrolls really removed just the ease of getting them.

TrinityTurtle
10-08-2014, 11:26 AM
This is why we can't have nice things.

Like it or not, buffs are part of the D&D world. You say you don't like using your mana on buffing but in real Dungeons & Dragons you had limited spells and had to choose what to cast carefully. Do you cast a Web to hold the Orc in place or cast Blur on your ally to engage it? This is part of the spell system that is so beloved and help make D&D part of our culture. As they continue to "streamline" this game in a more mainstream direction it may make things easier for you but it is getting less and less like Dungeons & Dragons and more and more like "Generic Fantasy MMO".

Neither. At the table I cast scorching ray and kill the orc myself, and am grateful it never even occurred to me to cast web on a single org and waste a good spell like that. I have played tabletop for 30 years, and very few casters ever stood around buffing their parties. In fact, they didn't have enough spells per day to do what we do in ddo with the buffs.

And having played tabletop for 30 years, I will be the first to say it's an entirely different animal than any video game can ever be. Turn based and real time are vastly different.

Lonnbeimnech
10-08-2014, 11:46 AM
Neither. At the table I cast scorching ray and kill the orc myself, and am grateful it never even occurred to me to cast web on a single org and waste a good spell like that. I have played tabletop for 30 years, and very few casters ever stood around buffing their parties. In fact, they didn't have enough spells per day to do what we do in ddo with the buffs.

And having played tabletop for 30 years, I will be the first to say it's an entirely different animal than any video game can ever be. Turn based and real time are vastly different.

Back when I played table top, my brother was always the caster, and that's pretty much how I remember it too. Every spell was some form of direct damage spell, like fireball or magic missile. But once a campaign lasted into higher levels, and he picked up permanency. He gave himself ever single buff in the book, but not anyone else.

FranOhmsford
10-08-2014, 12:54 PM
Back when I played table top, my brother was always the caster, and that's pretty much how I remember it too. Every spell was some form of direct damage spell, like fireball or magic missile. But once a campaign lasted into higher levels, and he picked up permanency. He gave himself ever single buff in the book, but not anyone else.

Can you imagine what the Devs would do with "Permanency"?

Qhualor
10-08-2014, 01:06 PM
People complained several years ago that blue bars were reluctant to waste their sp on others for buffs and heals. People complained they had trouble soloing and gimping their builds to invest in umd. Now we have unique abilities like feats and spells in enhancements. New enhancements created more build customization varieties. Ship buffs made soloing and less desire to ask for buffs from blue bars. Items with unique abilities, although invis and some other clickies no longer drop. Some asking to be able to cast while raged and other class breaking things.

A lot of this we asked for directly and indirectly. The devs responded to what we asked for and now some are seeing why players don't see far enough past their nose how bad some suggestions can really be.

Wh070aa
10-08-2014, 01:25 PM
Its not like you can cast the actually good spells on others.
Displacement was nerfed, stoneskin was partially nerfed (on air sorcerers).

Honestly I prefer the self buffing, as I don't want to waste my blue bar, on catching and buffing someone, And I don't want to wait till someone buff me.
That said, I think they should make the buffing part easier for casters (making all resists spell, and quicker cast times/compressing bard songs. for example).

I like being able to use every possible buff, when needed. I have most of the necessary scrolls, and items, to buff up my mates.

Waiting for cleric, or getting sorcerer or FVS without the buff we want is not fun. We just turn to using hirelings for same ting, which is more annoying.

I don't want to wait for cleric, wizard, or whatever to run the quest. Seriously. Forced waiting is not fun, especially when no one really plays the class, or goes to LFM's.

You are forgetting about new players, and bad players. I have been main healer, and raised dead clerics way too many times, when on non divine character.

If you play with guild, you can hand out buffs. They save plat. If you use LFM panel, no one really has the items anyway.

I really don't see the problem here.

moo_cow
10-08-2014, 02:54 PM
Buffs have been slowly becoming more and more obsolete. They either offer trivial bonuses at cap or are available on items. Resists, gh, blur and haste used to be very appreciated by groups but now everyone has everything. This has diminished the uniqueness of the classes further watering down the game. Soon this will be a game like Elder Scrolls where there are no classes.

I would suggest giving casters higher level versions of these spells and to stop putting all these unique spells on items. Pretty much anything any class can do can be found on some item to some degree.

I must say I do hate that everyone can carry every buff but I do like saving my mana for killing. The thing that sucks is since everyone can carry these buffs, 15% of all spells are automatically useless. It is pretty sad though when a caster doesn't carry the haste spell because everyone has it.

PsychoBlonde
10-08-2014, 03:47 PM
No thank you. I rather enjoy not having to blow a large chunk of mana on my casters before the first monster. I can't disagree more with the idea presented above that the only source for buffs should be...me...in a party. I remember those days when it was way more true than it is now, and it wasn't fun being reduced to a buffbot.

I even more enjoy being able to take the first five or eleven people to hit my lfms and not worry about needing buffs or whatever else. The old way of having to sit around and waiting for someone with a particular spell or skill was boring.

Yes indeed. People have more appreciation for what buffs they actually *need* now, instead of just randomly demanding you throw everything and the kitchen sink on them. Having a given buff is a perk of a class, it shouldn't be a defining aspect of a class. Heck, most of the really crucial ones you've been able to get on hirelings basically forever.

Plus there's nothing dumber than getting into a raid as an artificer and having people want you to put 3 separate weapon buffs on 3 separate weapons. How about no.

General_Gronker
10-09-2014, 07:21 AM
unique . . . I don't think you quite understand what this word means.

Too many ingredients = everybody's soup tastes like ****Only if the cook sucks and the eaters are stupidly whiny.

It is pretty sad though when a caster doesn't carry the haste spell because everyone has it.That would be pretty sad, yes. Good thing that isn't the case. I'm still seeing arcanes at every level, including cap, toss Haste out there. Maybe you should run with better people?

Kuttamia
10-13-2014, 10:51 AM
/not signed. Depending on special buffs from other players will reduce self sufficiency and increase depending on other players.

moo_cow
10-13-2014, 06:13 PM
That would be pretty sad, yes. Good thing that isn't the case. I'm still seeing arcanes at every level, including cap, toss Haste out there. Maybe you should run with better people?

I don't carry haste, it's a waste of a spell slot at cap. Get it on an item, if you are waiting for a caster to haste you every 2.5 minutes then you are doing it wrong. There will be times when haste gets dispelled and it's not like your group is going to group up every 2.5 minutes.

Zachski
10-13-2014, 08:48 PM
/not signed. Depending on special buffs from other players will reduce self sufficiency and increase depending on other players.

While I am not signing this either...

The reason you presented would actually be a good thing.

Successful MMORPGs have an endgame that consist of players depending on each other. This is why static groups get formed.

TrinityTurtle
10-14-2014, 11:03 AM
While I am not signing this either...

The reason you presented would actually be a good thing.

Successful MMORPGs have an endgame that consist of players depending on each other. This is why static groups get formed.

Not always, as a member of a static group that has lasted for six years, we formed it not out of need but out of social enjoyment. We're friends, and we play together, solo, and in pugs, but always stick out of that group not because we need each other or depend on each other to get through a quest but just out of enjoyment. Trying to force a social aspect on people rarely ends well. People who don't enjoy the company of others tend to make it a really miserable time for the rest of the group has bee my experience.

Removing the 'need' to group and replacing it with the 'desire' to group forms up much better pugs. I have been in some lovely ones all week where everyone had no problems seeing to their own needs, and only formed up out of a desire to have people to chat with and have a great time together.