PDA

View Full Version : Fight or Flight, The Mean Wolf



Damion01
09-15-2014, 02:27 PM
Hi all, i don't post much.. because as much as i love D&D i don't always understand the internal workings of the game. I just have some questions on my build, i don't expliot, not bashing anyone who does.. i just don't.. but if you see me on Aggronessen you might think that i am.

My current build is Barb 5/Druid 15
Barb 5 allows me to use "Critial Rage" from the Ravager tree, (allows me in winter wolf form to have a 15-20 threat range) also other goodies that work amazing with around 45% sustained double strike and 75% with the action boost... like slaughter and cruel cut.
Druid 15 allows me the buffs, spells, wolf pet, among other enhancements.

so my questions are:
1. is there another way to aquire a 15-20 threat range while in winter wolf form? ( i haven't found one yet because keen on rapier and the such do not carry over to wolf form.. wolf is strickly 19-20x3)
2. is there another or a different split than barb5/druid15 that i could do that would improve on this build
3. ok so i use single weapon fighting, i hold an orb for the single weapon fighting requirement+it counts as a shield so i get my double strike.. feats shield master/imp shield mastery/natural figthing/blazing speed.. all the goodies basically i think im at 45% max speed, then with haste boost im at 75% max speed... i look like a wolf on crack.. NO EXPLOITING... Any ideas on ways to improve this?

My lunch is almost up i have to go lol.. i have other thoughts, my gear, enhancements, feats.. any tips would be appreciated.
Thanks!

giftie
09-16-2014, 08:02 AM
Critical Rage, assuming it works in Wolf form, relies on being raged (obviously) and thus negates any self-healing and SLAs (such as takedown). Furthermore, you'll have to invest quite a bit in the Barb trees to extend Rage and add more uses per shrine to make it worth it. It's a huge investment for just +2 range for a few minutes/shrine.

TWF in wolf form has been declared not WAI, and it's safe to assume SWF isn't WAI either - Natural Fighting is supposed to replace the combat style feats. Using Shield Mastery with Orb is definitely not WAI. It seems you're stopping at an arbitrary point of exploitation.

Therrias
09-16-2014, 08:12 AM
1. is there another way to aquire a 15-20 threat range while in winter wolf form? ( i haven't found one yet because keen on rapier and the such do not carry over to wolf form.. wolf is strickly 19-20x3)


Improved Critical: Bludgeoning or an Impact weapon.

unbongwah
09-16-2014, 09:18 AM
1. is there another way to aquire a 15-20 threat range while in winter wolf form? ( i haven't found one yet because keen on rapier and the such do not carry over to wolf form.. wolf is strickly 19-20x3)
Take the Improved Crit Blunt feat (wolf atks count as unarmed, which fall under IC:Blunt), which doubles your base crit range from 19-20 to 17-20; I forget if it applies before or after Crit Rage bonuses.

2. is there another or a different split than barb5/druid15 that i could do that would improve on this build
You may with to consider a rgr or ftr 2 splash; you lose lvl 8 spells, but the extra feats will really help out. Because:

3. ok so i use single weapon fighting, i hold an orb for the single weapon fighting requirement+it counts as a shield so i get my double strike.. feats shield master/imp shield mastery/natural figthing/blazing speed.. all the goodies basically i think im at 45% max speed, then with haste boost im at 75% max speed... i look like a wolf on crack.. NO EXPLOITING... Any ideas on ways to improve this?
TWF feats apply to wolf form as well; this is not WAI and hasn't been since U19 came out last year, but AFAIK it still hasn't been fixed / nerfed in U23. The downside is TWF and SWF feats are mutually exclusive; however there's a workaround using a rgr splash.

Have a look at Tilomere's Natural Evolution (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425933-Natural-Evolution-a-simplified-wolf-dps-build) thread; he runs through a bunch of different wolf builds.

Critical Rage, assuming it works in Wolf form, relies on being raged (obviously) and thus negates any self-healing and SLAs (such as takedown).
Another downside is Rage disables Beast Stances, IIRC; no Fatal Harrier for you! :(

TWF in wolf form has been declared not WAI, and it's safe to assume SWF isn't WAI either - Natural Fighting is supposed to replace the combat style feats. Using Shield Mastery with Orb is definitely not WAI.
Actually, SWF appears to be WAI; you get the atk speed bonus, but not the +200% stat dmg (+150% in U23). TWF is still bugged, AFAIK. I hadn't heard that Shield Mastery isn't supposed to work with orbs, though; that would kinda suck if true. :(

Lonnbeimnech
09-16-2014, 09:33 AM
Hi all, i don't post much.. because as much as i love D&D i don't always understand the internal workings of the game. I just have some questions on my build, i don't expliot, not bashing anyone who does.. i just don't.. but if you see me on Aggronessen you might think that i am.

My current build is Barb 5/Druid 15
Barb 5 allows me to use "Critial Rage" from the Ravager tree, (allows me in winter wolf form to have a 15-20 threat range) also other goodies that work amazing with around 45% sustained double strike and 75% with the action boost... like slaughter and cruel cut.
Druid 15 allows me the buffs, spells, wolf pet, among other enhancements.

so my questions are:
1. is there another way to aquire a 15-20 threat range while in winter wolf form? ( i haven't found one yet because keen on rapier and the such do not carry over to wolf form.. wolf is strickly 19-20x3)
2. is there another or a different split than barb5/druid15 that i could do that would improve on this build
3. ok so i use single weapon fighting, i hold an orb for the single weapon fighting requirement+it counts as a shield so i get my double strike.. feats shield master/imp shield mastery/natural figthing/blazing speed.. all the goodies basically i think im at 45% max speed, then with haste boost im at 75% max speed... i look like a wolf on crack.. NO EXPLOITING... Any ideas on ways to improve this?

My lunch is almost up i have to go lol.. i have other thoughts, my gear, enhancements, feats.. any tips would be appreciated.
Thanks!

Legendary shield mastery from sentinel would be another 7% double strike. You could get another 15% from lightning mace, but that would mean using a mace or morningstar.

The 25% melee alacrity from fatal harrier, stacks with haste boost and swf, but not with haste (spell) or melee alacrity items, it is still worth taking.

giftie
09-16-2014, 11:38 AM
Take the Improved Crit Blunt feat (wolf atks count as unarmed, which fall under IC:Blunt), which doubles your base crit range from 19-20 to 17-20; I forget if it applies before or after Crit Rage bonuses.

He mentions a 15-20 crit range, so I assumes he already included IC: Blunt in that range. Critical Rage applies after keen/IC for melee, but apparently before keen/IC for thrown (according to the Critzilla thread). Not sure about wolf form or ranged.


Another downside is Rage disables Beast Stances, IIRC; no Fatal Harrier for you! :(

I always took knockdown immunity stance myself. A kill every 8 seconds to keep up the stack always seemed a bit difficult to manage in EE for me. But good point nevertheless.


Actually, SWF appears to be WAI; you get the atk speed bonus, but not the +200% stat dmg (+150% in U23). TWF is still bugged, AFAIK. I hadn't heard that Shield Mastery isn't supposed to work with orbs, though; that would kinda suck if true. :(

I wouldn't say it's WAI simply because stat damage in wolf form is beyond broken. Doesn't it seem counter-intuitive that TWF is bugged and supposed to be replaced by Natural Fighting, but SWF while technically unarmed isn't?

giftie
09-16-2014, 12:05 PM
Critical Rage, assuming it works in Wolf form, relies on being raged (obviously) and thus negates any self-healing and SLAs (such as takedown). Furthermore, you'll have to invest quite a bit in the Barb trees to extend Rage and add more uses per shrine to make it worth it. It's a huge investment for just +2 range for a few minutes/shrine.

TWF in wolf form has been declared not WAI, and it's safe to assume SWF isn't WAI either - Natural Fighting is supposed to replace the combat style feats. Using Shield Mastery with Orb is definitely not WAI. It seems you're stopping at an arbitrary point of exploitation.

EDIT: Correction, using both SWF and Shield Mastery by using Orb or Buckler is what's not WAI. I haven't heard anything about using SWF with Orb or Shield Mastery with Orb.

Silverleafeon
09-16-2014, 12:09 PM
Ravager does NOT stack with Improved Critical feat.

Damion01
09-16-2014, 03:02 PM
Ravager does NOT stack with Improved Critical feat.

Not sure how the mechanics of Critical Rage works, but if i have improved crit blunt + critical rage, in winterwolf form my threat range is 15-20 (tested and using it now)

If i only use Critial Rage without imp crit feat.. my threat range is only 17-20.

Ive tested both, critial rage+imp crit feat is indeed working... sooooo it does stack in some way shape or form.

Anyway, again im not up to speed on the mechanics of the game, i don't sleep on D&D, so i had no idea that an orb was not classified as a shield or not WAI or whatever.. i know im certainly not going out of my way to split my class to gain feats im not supposed to have deliberately.. so no im not skating on any half exploiting tip.

when i get a chance, not at work, i'll post my build, enhancements, twists, feats, etc..

I like the split between barb and druid because of all of the dmg and clickies barb brings with the melee speed 45%+/ threat range15-20/ 45%+ doublestrike/Buffs... and im not required to fight raged.. so dropping rage to heal buff restore my con from sacking it for temp health, etc.. can be done in druid and when i feel like i need to rip things apart i rage and go for it..

unbongwah
09-16-2014, 03:53 PM
I wouldn't say it's WAI simply because stat damage in wolf form is beyond broken. Doesn't it seem counter-intuitive that TWF is bugged and supposed to be replaced by Natural Fighting, but SWF while technically unarmed isn't?
Shield Mastery applies to wolf form b/c you have a shield equipped, even if you're not attacking with it; similarly, SWF applies to wolf form based on what you have equipped. At least, I hope that's the theory before I redo any of my druids!

That said, wolf builds have been a mess all along; U19 and now SWF have just made them more messy. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Correction, using both SWF and Shield Mastery by using Orb or Buckler is what's not WAI.
Somewhere Sev(?) said that they didn't intend for SWF and Shield Mastery to be stacking for Swashbucklers. I suspect this means they'll make SWF and SM feats mutually exclusive, just like SWF and THF/TWF are locked out. But I haven't checked Lama to see if they've done that. If they do nerf that, it'll be a huge blow to S&B Swashies, ofc.

giftie
09-17-2014, 04:53 AM
Ive tested both, critial rage+imp crit feat is indeed working... sooooo it does stack in some way shape or form.

Thanks for testing this. I'm not surprised, since Critical Rage is a unique bonus type. It's possible that Celestial Champion from Divine Crusader will work as well, but AFAIK it's not supposed to.


Anyway, again im not up to speed on the mechanics of the game, i don't sleep on D&D, so i had no idea that an orb was not classified as a shield or not WAI or whatever.. i know im certainly not going out of my way to split my class to gain feats im not supposed to have deliberately.. so no im not skating on any half exploiting tip.

I'm not judging. I'm just saying that Turbine hasn't bothered to fix SWF+TWF in any patch since U22 release, and it still works on Lama. It's not like Druid/Ranger/Monk splits were uncommon before U22.


and im not required to fight raged.. so dropping rage to heal buff restore my con from sacking it for temp health, etc.. can be done in druid and when i feel like i need to rip things apart i rage and go for it..

I don't get this. You splash 5 levels Barb and invest, probably, around 15-20 AP for better Rages and you consider it an optional bonus.

I would weigh this against 2 Monk for feats and evasion, 1 Clr for Divine Might, 2 Fighter for even more feats, Haste boost and extra boosts, and so on.


Shield Mastery applies to wolf form b/c you have a shield equipped, even if you're not attacking with it; similarly, SWF applies to wolf form based on what you have equipped. At least, I hope that's the theory before I redo any of my druids!

Fair point - while TWF is not WAI, Shield Mastery does work with Natural Fighting and most likely is supposed to. While +30% attack speed is a far bit stronger than +15% doublestrike, it doesn't necessarily mean SWF isn't supposed to work. But I don't buy your reasoning that it should work simply because you have sword and board equipped - TWF apparently still shouldn't work even if you're dual wielding.


Somewhere Sev(?) said that they didn't intend for SWF and Shield Mastery to be stacking for Swashbucklers. I suspect this means they'll make SWF and SM feats mutually exclusive, just like SWF and THF/TWF are locked out. But I haven't checked Lama to see if they've done that. If they do nerf that, it'll be a huge blow to S&B Swashies, ofc.

I interpreted Sev as stating that combat style feats shouldn't stack. Shield Mastery, while currently not type as combat style, should still be considered as such, and those feats are supposed to be replaced by proper S+B combat style feats sometime in the future. But that idea might have be changed/superceded by Vanguard tree.

Silverleafeon
09-17-2014, 05:34 AM
Thanks for testing that is good new, everything should stack with improved crit but Ravager was said not to stack with the feat.

Does it stack while you are not in wolf form, (holding appropriate weapon type)?

Damion01
09-17-2014, 06:52 AM
Thanks for testing that is good new, everything should stack with improved crit but Ravager was said not to stack with the feat.

Does it stack while you are not in wolf form, (holding appropriate weapon type)?

Yes critical rage stacks out of form too, on my barb with a keen rapier or the critical piercing feat i get a 13-20 range. Im sure if i equipped a staff or hammer on my druid out of form it should also stack.

unbongwah
09-17-2014, 09:51 AM
I interpreted Sev as stating that combat style feats shouldn't stack. Shield Mastery, while currently not type as combat style, should still be considered as such, and those feats are supposed to be replaced by proper S+B combat style feats sometime in the future. But that idea might have be changed/superceded by Vanguard tree.
I based my comment on this post (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446138-Armor-Up-Developer-Diary-2?p=5390825&viewfull=1#post5390825): "We will look into the specific case of Swashbucklers with bucklers to make sure they don't get the shield feats as well as SWF." (emphasis mine) I interpret that as meaning he doesn't intend for SWF and Shield Mastery to stack; the easiest way to affect that change is by making the feats mutually exclusive. I skimmed that thread looking for clarification, but unfortunately I saw none. :(

giftie
09-17-2014, 10:38 AM
I based my comment on this post (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446138-Armor-Up-Developer-Diary-2?p=5390825&viewfull=1#post5390825): "We will look into the specific case of Swashbucklers with bucklers to make sure they don't get the shield feats as well as SWF." (emphasis mine) I interpret that as meaning he doesn't intend for SWF and Shield Mastery to stack; the easiest way to affect that change is by making the feats mutually exclusive. I skimmed that thread looking for clarification, but unfortunately I saw none. :(

Here you go: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446138-Armor-Up-Developer-Diary-2?p=5390879&viewfull=1#post5390879

"Anyway the ability to take both SWF and the shield feats is a bug that should be fixed when these changes go into effect."

Silverleafeon
09-17-2014, 10:56 AM
Yes critical rage stacks out of form too, on my barb with a keen rapier or the critical piercing feat i get a 13-20 range. Im sure if i equipped a staff or hammer on my druid out of form it should also stack.

Wow, maybe they considered it bugged and fixed it.
That would make sense as barbarian crits should be the best in game.

THANK YOU for testing/letting me know as barbarian information is premium to me atm.
:)

Tilomere
09-21-2014, 05:05 PM
Animal form attacks are tactical feats which cost mana, not spells, and can be used while raged to charge blitz.

There are no other ways to improve a druids critical range on every attack other than IC:Blunt or impact and critical rage.

Natural Evolution (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425933-Natural-Evolution-a-simplified-wolf-dps-build) post as mentioned does go through a bunch of druid builds and what I learned playing them, including several druid-barb multiclass builds.

Damion01
09-22-2014, 07:59 AM
Animal form attacks are tactical feats which cost mana, not spells, and can be used while raged to charge blitz.

There are no other ways to improve a druids critical range on every attack other than IC:Blunt or impact and critical rage.

Natural Evolution (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425933-Natural-Evolution-a-simplified-wolf-dps-build) post as mentioned does go through a bunch of druid builds and what I learned playing them, including several druid-barb multiclass builds.

It does stack, im currently using critical rage+ic blunt in winter wolf form and my threat range (unarmed to test even further) is 15-20... why would you post something and not even have tested it? ofcourse it stacks.. why dont you roll a 5barb+10druid iconic and test it before you say something doesnt work.

Damion01
09-22-2014, 08:01 AM
Animal form attacks are tactical feats which cost mana, not spells, and can be used while raged to charge blitz.

There are no other ways to improve a druids critical range on every attack other than IC:Blunt or impact and critical rage.

Natural Evolution (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425933-Natural-Evolution-a-simplified-wolf-dps-build) post as mentioned does go through a bunch of druid builds and what I learned playing them, including several druid-barb multiclass builds.

my apologies on my last post.. yes you are right they are the only things that post.. i thought i read.. they do not stack. at work and glacing at threads.. ty for the feedback :)

giftie
09-22-2014, 10:23 AM
Animal form attacks are tactical feats which cost mana, not spells, and can be used while raged to charge blitz.

Gah. Brain fart. By SLAs I meant the _actual_ SLAs such as Creeping Cold, not the animal form attacks.

Tilomere
09-22-2014, 12:47 PM
I thought critical rage in animal form was 14-20x3 as well, but displayed as 15-20x3.

It had something to do with being 2 different types of 1 crit range, with one of the types being competence and being doubled, and the other being untyped or something, and not being doubled.