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nokowi
09-13-2014, 02:18 PM
I did some informal testing and here are the results for EE content (Tested Web Traps in EE End of the Road):

Trap DC is based on your disable device skill when the trap is used, not when it is crafted.

With 81 Disable Device and no ranks in Improved Traps (Mechanic Tree), mobs would occasionally get caught in my web traps, but usually only for 1 second or so. With 108 Disable Device and no ranks in Improved Traps (Mechanic Tree), mobs would get caught in my web traps, and remain for a few seconds. I then added 1 Rank in Improved traps (Mechanic Tree), and noticed that 81 Disable with 1 rank acted similar to 108 Disable with no Ranks. Even though magical Trap DC is not listed, I am concluding that Magical Trap DC has the same formula as Elemental Trap DC.

Assumption for Magical Trap DC with Improved Traps:
0 Ranks (Magical Trap DC is 50% of Disable Skill)
1 Rank (Magical Trap DC is 65% of Disable Skill)
2 Ranks (Magical Trap DC is 80% of Disable Skill)
3 Ranks (Magical Trap DC is 100% of Disable Skill)

With this assumption, my results show that your Magical Trap DC needs to be in the 60 (useful) - 70 (few failures) range for EE content.
I also assumed the text for +1,2,3 Magical Trap DC from the Mechanic Tree is correct to get the results below:

0 Rank in Improved Traps: Minimum useful Disable Device = 120 Recommended Disable Device = 140
1 Rank in Improved Traps: Minimum useful Disable Device = 91 Recommended Disable Device = 107
2 Rank in Improved Traps: Minimum useful Disable Device = 73 Recommended Disable Device = 86
3 Rank in Improved Traps: Minimum useful Disable Device = 57 Recommended Disable Device = 67

I hope this helps if you are interested in setting magical traps for EE content!

arcattaii
09-15-2014, 10:27 AM
Great work! Love this change and hope it is WAI.

Saekee
09-17-2014, 10:33 AM
This explains your note recently as to the effectiveness of the mechanic enhancement. I am curious how else to buff these or do other effects. I used to only make noisemakers.

nokowi
09-17-2014, 08:17 PM
This explains your note recently as to the effectiveness of the mechanic enhancement. I am curious how else to buff these or do other effects. I used to only make noisemakers.

If I understand your statement, then the answer is to have a good Disable Device score on the equipment you actually wear so that you can use Magical Trap effectively. I have a score of 77 (82 with GH + mask) without any disable device item. Throw in a disable device augment and it should be easy to get enough disable device.

23 ranks disable device
8 epic skills
29 intelligence bonus
4 skill tome
3 guild ship bonus
2 luck
3 arti past life
2 completionist
3 mechanics
_______________
77 disable
4 heroism
1 spider cult mask
_______________
82 no disable item
20 manual of stealthy pilfer (20 disable device)
6 manual of stealthy pilfering (+6 int skills)
1 manual of stelathy pilfering (+2 to +3 luck)
_______________
109 disable
3 skills stance (I don't use this)
_______________
112 disable

As to trap use, my experience is that the traps don't hit the first few guys that run through them. So if you use a trap like charm, they shouldn't be running directly at you, or they will run right through it and use up your trap. I prefer web because the trap remains and you can kite them into it.

JOTMON
09-23-2014, 02:54 PM
If I understand your statement, then the answer is to have a good Disable Device score on the equipment you actually wear so that you can use Magical Trap effectively. I have a score of 77 (82 with GH + mask) without any disable device item. Throw in a disable device augment and it should be easy to get enough disable device.

23 ranks disable device
8 epic skills
29 intelligence bonus
4 skill tome
3 guild ship bonus
2 luck
3 arti past life
2 completionist
3 mechanics
_______________
77 disable
4 heroism
1 spider cult mask
_______________
82 no disable item
20 manual of stealthy pilfer (20 disable device)
6 manual of stealthy pilfering (+6 int skills)
1 manual of stelathy pilfering (+2 to +3 luck)
_______________
109 disable
3 skills stance (I don't use this)
_______________
112 disable

As to trap use, my experience is that the traps don't hit the first few guys that run through them. So if you use a trap like charm, they shouldn't be running directly at you, or they will run right through it and use up your trap. I prefer web because the trap remains and you can kite them into it.


Don't forget Epic Ventilated Bracers
Enhanced Disable Device +5 (it stacks)

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ventilated_Armbands

Phaeton_Seraph
09-23-2014, 05:25 PM
As to trap use, my experience is that the traps don't hit the first few guys that run through them. So if you use a trap like charm, they shouldn't be running directly at you, or they will run right through it and use up your trap. I prefer web because the trap remains and you can kite them into it.

Some traps are less effective when the mobs are aggroed (I saw this with hypnotic field traps in Stealthy Repo, and I was way over level, so my traps' DCs should have crushed them).

You can better bait mobs onto your traps by:


If you lay a noisemaker near another trap, and lure a mob onto it.
If you are invisible, and sneaking (and they can't see through invis), stand up near your trap, take 1 step, slip back into sneak and clear the immediate area without being noticed.
I think, I have yet to test it, that if you throw a throwing weapon at the vicinity of the trap, you can lure a mob there too.
You can Bluff a mob (I call out "Hey sailor!" while I wave them over, pretty sure it works better that way), and he'll just wander over sedately.



Other Methods:

If you're an artificer, lay a trap before opening a door (choke points FTW!), summon a Turret and open the door. The Turret should block their progress long enough to allow the trap to spring. (They'll be aggroed, so choose your trap carefully)

You can physically block their path while invisible. If the trap doesn't take them, you might be in trouble as you've just blown your stealth.

If you can take a hit, you can shield block a doorway similar to the Artie turret.

A scroll of Sleet/Grease in that hypothetically high traffic door will often slow their progress enough to keep them in the blast radius.


A Bit of Fun:
Additionally to the door, place a grease trap just under the apex of a slope, place a force trap at the top. When the mob charges, passes through before being caught in the grease, you block him long enough for the force trap to knock him back into the grease... and down he goes.
You can lure them into this combo too, but the ideal set-up appears infrequently.
(Thanks to Christine for the Force/Grease combo.)


If anyone else has fun things to do with traps, like this last one, please post them.

nokowi
09-23-2014, 06:03 PM
Some traps are less effective when the mobs are aggroed (I saw this with hypnotic field traps in Stealthy Repo, and I was way over level, so my traps' DCs should have crushed them).

You can better bait mobs onto your traps by:


If you lay a noisemaker near another trap, and lure a mob onto it.
If you are invisible, and sneaking (and they can't see through invis), stand up near your trap, take 1 step, slip back into sneak and clear the immediate area without being noticed.
I think, I have yet to test it, that if you throw a throwing weapon at the vicinity of the trap, you can lure a mob there too.
You can Bluff a mob (I call out "Hey sailor!" while I wave them over, pretty sure it works better that way), and he'll just wander over sedately.



Other Methods:

If you're an artificer, lay a trap before opening a door (choke points FTW!), summon a Turret and open the door. The Turret should block their progress long enough to allow the trap to spring. (They'll be aggroed, so choose your trap carefully)

You can physically block their path while invisible. If the trap doesn't take them, you might be in trouble as you've just blown your stealth.

If you can take a hit, you can shield block a doorway similar to the Artie turret.

A scroll of Sleet/Grease in that hypothetically high traffic door will often slow their progress enough to keep them in the blast radius.


A Bit of Fun:
Additionally to the door, place a grease trap just under the apex of a slope, place a force trap at the top. When the mob charges, passes through before being caught in the grease, you block him long enough for the force trap to knock him back into the grease... and down he goes.
You can lure them into this combo too, but the ideal set-up appears infrequently.
(Thanks to Christine for the Force/Grease combo.)


If anyone else has fun things to do with traps, like this last one, please post them.

Great ideas!

Bluff is bugged until u23, so I'd be careful with that method until then.

nokowi
09-23-2014, 06:06 PM
Don't forget Epic Ventilated Bracers
Enhanced Disable Device +5 (it stacks)

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ventilated_Armbands

That's a nice situational item, but you would have to wear the bracers most of the time for laying traps. Trap DC's are calculated on (either placement or activation), not at the time of crafting.

I would lose an epic destiny feat for +5 disable before I would give up my bracer slot. (Dumanothoin's for U22 build)

JOTMON
09-24-2014, 01:52 PM
That's a nice situational item, but you would have to wear the bracers most of the time for laying traps. Trap DC's are calculated on (either placement or activation), not at the time of crafting.

I would lose an epic destiny feat for +5 disable before I would give up my bracer slot. (Dumanothoin's for U22 build)

You always want your best DC when doing anything.

I have the same bracers,.. I always equip my trap gear before trapping, and laying traps is like disabling traps, its always situational.
The only time I equip the manual of stealthy pilfering/Epic Ventilated Bracers is when doing traps, otherwise Litany/Dumanothoin's never come off.
The Dumanothoin's Bracers aren't needed when you are setting traps before you aggro mobs.

Phaeton_Seraph
09-25-2014, 01:56 AM
Just out of curiousity, and I'm not doubting any testing anyone's personally done, but the Wiki still thinks Magical Trap DCs are based on your Int modifier.

Did the Devs ever announce or publicly document any changes to Magical Trap-making?
And if so, can anyone remember where it was?
And if not, how do we get the Devs to tell us what they've done?




Great ideas!

Bluff is bugged until u23, so I'd be careful with that method until then.

Huh. I've only used Bluff in active combat, and that seemed to work normally (well normal to the way I recall it worked when I was playing 7 months ago), can you describe the bug for me? If it's not too much trouble.

nokowi
09-25-2014, 12:59 PM
Just out of curiousity, and I'm not doubting any testing anyone's personally done, but the Wiki still thinks Magical Trap DCs are based on your Int modifier.

Did the Devs ever announce or publicly document any changes to Magical Trap-making?
And if so, can anyone remember where it was?
And if not, how do we get the Devs to tell us what they've done?





Huh. I've only used Bluff in active combat, and that seemed to work normally (well normal to the way I recall it worked when I was playing 7 months ago), can you describe the bug for me? If it's not too much trouble.

There is no current info on magical traps, you are looking at old information. The easiest method for testing is to use gear to alter your disable device and watch the effectiveness of your web traps change. Intelligence is used to calculate disable device so it is still somewhat important, although a Str or Dex rogue can probably get into the 70-80 range which is effective with 3 ranks in Improved traps.

Normally 1 mob will run at you when you bluff a non-agro'd mob. When they get within a certain range of you, you get noticed and EVERY mob within a certain radius runs at you. it is exactly like performing an assassinate (while in stealth) and getting auto spotted. You likely won;t notice the problem if you are not in stealth. There is a work around in stealth: Make sure you retreat after bluffing so that you are out of range of other mobs when the autospot effect happens (technique shown in End of the Road).

Bluff mechanics are shown on my EE End of the Road Video. Trap use is shown in Foundation of Discord and most other videos at : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgjCKLGi8kMIzg2BtiojRfg

nokowi
09-25-2014, 01:07 PM
You always want your best DC when doing anything.

I have the same bracers,.. I always equip my trap gear before trapping, and laying traps is like disabling traps, its always situational.
The only time I equip the manual of stealthy pilfering/Epic Ventilated Bracers is when doing traps, otherwise Litany/Dumanothoin's never come off.
The Dumanothoin's Bracers aren't needed when you are setting traps before you aggro mobs.

If you have the manaul of stealthy pilfering, your skills may be high enough that you don't need to swap in/out the extra +5. Trap DC's only need to be ~70-75 for epic elite content. I run around without even equipping the manual with a DC around 80 (with GH). I have DC 108 with the manual. Going higher than 75 or so makes no noticeable difference.

My advice. Figure out how to gear your toon so you don't need to gear swap. Gear swap (as suggested with ventilated bracers) only if you have to.

JOTMON
09-25-2014, 02:29 PM
If you have the manaul of stealthy pilfering, your skills may be high enough that you don't need to swap in/out the extra +5. Trap DC's only need to be ~70-75 for epic elite content. I run around without even equipping the manual with a DC around 80 (with GH). I have DC 108 with the manual. Going higher than 75 or so makes no noticeable difference.

My advice. Figure out how to gear your toon so you don't need to gear swap. Gear swap (as suggested with ventilated bracers) only if you have to.

I am running +115 all geared up, I get a critical success on every trap even on a roll of 1... It may be overkill :)

nokowi
09-25-2014, 09:15 PM
I am running +115 all geared up, I get a critical success on every trap even on a roll of 1... It may be overkill :)

I think so :)