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KookieKobold
09-11-2014, 12:32 PM
Lamannia has been updated and is now open!

Release notes and Known Issues will be updated shortly.

Cordovan
09-11-2014, 12:44 PM
Release Notes (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-9-11-14)) and Known Issues (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438924-Lamannia-Known-Issues-(Last-Updated-9-11-14)) updated.

Also, just a note that this version of Lamannia includes some various bug fixes with the Guild Storage amenity. We'd love to see you try it out on Lamannia and give us more feedback on it!

Zurrander
09-11-2014, 01:19 PM
I like that the trip effect has been added to Shield Rush, But now there's a lot less to gain for 1-4 in this tree. Couldn't Shield Charge get a lesser trip effect, maybe Shield Rush could be an add on to Shield Charge allowing it to hit more targets (and raising the DC). instead of making Shield Charge a throwaway attack (huge waste of AP). And could you consider giving "Sheild specialization" +2 AC on the even levels (the way Orcish Weapon Training does) so that it seems a little more worth it?

Something like this would be nice.
Tier 1 - "Shield Smash" would evolve into "Stunning Shield" at Tier 2
Tier 4 - "Shield Charge" would evolve into "Shield Rush" at Tier 5

That way you get two active attacks in the tree that get stronger with ap, Instead of two good actives and two AC sinks.

And lastly, I like what you did with "Vanguard Armor mastery", but isn't tier 4 a bit high for a +3 Ac & max dex enhancement?

Or maybe even give shield charge a stun... its just not very useful without some type of CC...

Takllin
09-11-2014, 01:23 PM
Seems like not much has changed, does this mean we will be getting the update soon?

Erofen
09-11-2014, 01:50 PM
NEW: The Cannith Propulsion Boots now share a cooldown with Abundant Step and Leap of Faith.

NO NO NO NO PLEASE NO! I have not been able to do the house k super jump or harbor jump yet. :/

UurlockYgmeov
09-11-2014, 02:02 PM
Release Notes (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-9-11-14)) and Known Issues (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438924-Lamannia-Known-Issues-(Last-Updated-9-11-14)) updated.

Also, just a note that this version of Lamannia includes some various bug fixes with the Guild Storage amenity. We'd love to see you try it out on Lamannia and give us more feedback on it!

its working. Guild Storage - just tried it.

Just wish it would all be in one box so to speak with better ways to organize; however 200 + 200 is nice (ok actually 100+100 and 100+100)

UurlockYgmeov
09-11-2014, 02:03 PM
NEW: The Cannith Propulsion Boots now share a cooldown with Abundant Step and Leap of Faith.

NO NO NO NO PLEASE NO! I have not been able to do the house k super jump or harbor jump yet. :/

I saw this stealth nerf. Sad.

Seikojin
09-11-2014, 02:11 PM
Release Notes (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-9-11-14)) and Known Issues (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438924-Lamannia-Known-Issues-(Last-Updated-9-11-14)) updated.

Also, just a note that this version of Lamannia includes some various bug fixes with the Guild Storage amenity. We'd love to see you try it out on Lamannia and give us more feedback on it!

Storage works, YAY! (verified, officers and leaders can hit every chest, members can only hit member chests. At least for lvl 5.) However the officer and higher chests still are half submerged in the floor. I did not remove and replace the amenity, or buy from scratch, so I do not know if this is my old amenity items, or if it is like this due to a graphical bug.

Also the chests stay open until the instance resets.

patang01
09-11-2014, 02:33 PM
Lamannia has been updated and is now open!

Release notes and Known Issues will be updated shortly.

I see that a few things have changed with the Harper tree it it gets less and less useful. Moving features to tier 5 just makes it almost useless. Very few if any will invest that much into the 3. I mean as a bard I can get +1 to a DC at tier 2 I think. Here a passive +1 is moved to tier 5.

And with the Charisma bonuses removed from the tiers it's limited strictly to a few classes, particularly Int. Wouldn't it just be easier to tie this to rogue or Arti instead, because with the current changes that's what you're more and more are making it to be.

patang01
09-11-2014, 02:33 PM
Any idea if adjustments were made to some of the items?

patang01
09-11-2014, 02:35 PM
NEW: The Cannith Propulsion Boots now share a cooldown with Abundant Step and Leap of Faith.

NO NO NO NO PLEASE NO! I have not been able to do the house k super jump or harbor jump yet. :/

This change is silly. Will it also 'reload' as fast? Or is it still 10 minutes? These shared cool downs are getting obnoxious. Such as the different flasks, all sharing the same cooldown even tho they have completely different functions.

G_Lich
09-11-2014, 03:27 PM
I saw this stealth nerf. Sad.

Theyre just getting rid of hacky/cheesy shortcutting. fair game imo

Erofen
09-11-2014, 03:27 PM
This change is silly. Will it also 'reload' as fast? Or is it still 10 minutes? These shared cool downs are getting obnoxious. Such as the different flasks, all sharing the same cooldown even tho they have completely different functions.
Yes, but they did not listen with flasks, so most likely won't listen to any other objections to shared cooldowns. Makes me quite sad as a majority of what I still do is free running/jumping in different areas, which gives locations sometimes for hide and seek events. My DDO schedule probably looks mostly like this:
1. Chat
2. Free running/jumping/pvp during #1
3. Finish Gearing
4. Extra Loot for giveaway's in Hide and Seek mini events with locations from #2 mostly.

Overall the update looks pretty good, but this minor change and it's root: the shared cooldown issue is a HUGE sour spot.

Erofen
09-11-2014, 03:29 PM
Theyre just getting rid of hacky/cheesy shortcutting. fair game imo
I don't see in which quests 2 wings will do more than 1. This mainly effects public areas.

Grosbeak07
09-11-2014, 03:30 PM
This change is silly. Will it also 'reload' as fast? Or is it still 10 minutes? These shared cool downs are getting obnoxious. Such as the different flasks, all sharing the same cooldown even tho they have completely different functions.

My guess a few folk were doing naughty things with those combinations, so we all get to suffer as a result.

Cordovan
09-11-2014, 03:31 PM
The cooldown on the Cannith Propulsion Boots is to prevent quests from breaking, and to prevent people from doing a "double jump" using other methods like Abundant Step. No character should ever be able to use two "jump"-style effects one after the other, as it breaks content and causes significant exploits.

Lighti
09-11-2014, 03:49 PM
And lastly, I like what you did with "Vanguard Armor mastery", but isn't tier 4 a bit high for a +3 Ac & max dex enhancement?

Armour Mastery is easy to get with it being tier 1 in the Defender trees. Its the shield Mastery that caps a lot of Tower shield users as they have a base MDB of 2 and you have to pick up Armour Mastery to unlock Shield Mastery, would be a lot more beneficial to either add Shield Mastery into the tree also otherwise you will kill the use of Tower Shields.


Talking of Towers, no Tower Shield proficiency for paladins to pick up still meaning they need to take the feat if they want to get the higher PRR & MRR, thought one of your aims was to ease the amount of Feats that paladins have to take.

Portalcat
09-11-2014, 03:55 PM
Negative energy healing being affected by MRR on pale masters still isn't fixed. Bug reported it yet again.

I see 25%ish reduction versus live, my only MRR item is Dumathoin's Bracers for sheltering 30, taking them off sends my healing numbers back up.




Is this going to be fixed before release? MRR is a pretty substantial nerf for PMs at the moment.

Erofen
09-11-2014, 04:04 PM
The cooldown on the Cannith Propulsion Boots is to prevent quests from breaking, and to prevent people from doing a "double jump" using other methods like Abundant Step. No character should ever be able to use to "jump"-style effects one after the other, as it breaks content and causes significant exploits.
Or you could, you know, actually just fix the new raid by moving any conflicting platform. And if having fun is an exploit, than yes, I have been abusing the heck out of that exploit. Besides whatever is in that new raid their is NO content it trivializes that you are not super over level for anyways.

/notsigned

Vargouille
09-11-2014, 04:05 PM
NEW: The Cannith Propulsion Boots now share a cooldown with Abundant Step and Leap of Faith.

Please note that this shared cooldown is approximately 3 seconds, not the full 10 minutes that the boots have.

Aelonwy
09-11-2014, 04:15 PM
Will there be ANY adjustments to loot including the Lvl 24 Crystal Cove loot? If you aren't going to make changes based on feedback, please stop showing the loot at all, I'd rather it be a nasty surprise than continue to waste my time on Lammania commenting on it, if everything we say is being swallowed by a void.

Sorry if that came off as rude.

blerkington
09-11-2014, 04:23 PM
Hi,

There's some disappointing stuff in these release notes after this many iterations.

The shared cooldown for long jump items and abilities is bogus. As far as I know, it hasn't so far been ruthlessly exploited or broken the game for the years of time these things have been on separate cooldowns. I suspect this has something to do with the new content that could have been fixed some other way or better designed, except it wasn't noticed in time.

Not including shiradi in the melee power buff is pretty poor, and not providing an explanation after repeated community requests for it is even poorer. You're buffing a number of stronger destinies for melee but still leaving this weaker one out? There's going to have to be one heck of a ranged buff to balance that out.

And at the end of this, what we're going to have is LD = melee strong/ranged strong, FOTW = melee strong/ranged strong and Shiradi = melee weak/ranged (at best) strong. That wouldn't exactly be a success in terms of the stated design goals of improving balance and giving players more choices.

Similarly, not including the TWF style in the melee power buff is also quite poor. Fiddling around with a couple of enhancements which some TWF builds don't or can't take doesn't fix the problem. If you think some TWF builds are too strong, the solution is not to do something that leaves other weaker TWF builds behind. You have other options which will give better outcomes.

Thanks.

SilkofDrasnia
09-11-2014, 04:25 PM
The cooldown on the Cannith Propulsion Boots is to prevent quests from breaking, and to prevent people from doing a "double jump" using other methods like Abundant Step. No character should ever be able to use two "jump"-style effects one after the other, as it breaks content and causes significant exploits.

LOL (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqBR8knRM2w)

I have to agree with the post above me by blerkington

Sebastrd
09-11-2014, 05:12 PM
The cooldown on the Cannith Propulsion Boots is to prevent quests from breaking, and to prevent people from doing a "double jump" using other methods like Abundant Step. No character should ever be able to use two "jump"-style effects one after the other, as it breaks content and causes significant exploits.

I.E., it breaks your new raid. SMH

Zigiltarg
09-11-2014, 05:13 PM
Negative energy healing being affected by MRR on pale masters still isn't fixed. Bug reported it yet again.

Similarly, I'm sure the 'undead dwarves don't count as dwarves for axe proficiency' bug will still be live this time in 2016.

Qhualor
09-11-2014, 05:21 PM
must be a good update if the biggest gripe are the exploit boots.

bbqzor
09-11-2014, 05:25 PM
CRITICAL U23 BUGS REMAIN ... do not go live without fixing these, please.

Feats:


The Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning line does not apply to shields. It should, they are functionally blunt weapons, both in ddo and pnp.
The Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning line does not apply to shields. It should, they are functionally blunt weapons, both in ddo and pnp.
Improved Critical: Bludgeoning does not apply to shields. It should, they are functionally blunt weapons, both in ddo and pnp.


Paladin KoTC:


Divine Light still does not mention scaling with Melee Power in the description, and still does not scale with Melee Power when used. This update is totally absent.
Action Boost Melee Power still costs 2 AP per rank. It is the only action boost not updated to cost 1, and as the exact same thing is in Harper (which everyone can access), and at the same tier, and it costs 1 there.... and in the Vanguard tree (which paladins can access), and at the same tier, and it costs 1 there... I am forced to conclude this was an oversight. The cost needs to be lowered to 1 AP per tier, unless you specifically say this is intended (which I would then point out how illogical that is, but for now assuming it just got missed and is a bug).
Empowered Smite is only applying on regular Smite Evil, not Exalted Smite from the enhancements. It should (both per the description, and per logic).
Avenging Cleave still only applies 1 stack of vulnerability at all ranks. This means its impossible to scale the effect up (it lasts shorter than the cleaves cooldown). Please make the ability apply 1/2/3 stacks of vulnerability for the three ranks of the enhancement, so it can actually build itself up.
Holy Retribution still does not recharge smites. And its still terrible because its a weaker-than-vorpal effect.


Paladin Sacred Defender:


Spellshield Aura is still incorrectly typed as an Enhancement bonus to spell resist, rather than a Sacred bonus. This prevents it from stacking correctly. (Also, its rather weak, again I would suggest adding +2/4/6 MRR to this in addition).


Vanguard enhancements:


In the Cores, it might be nice to add the word "stacking" to the Combat Style Speed in the 4th, 5th, and 6th ones. Its intuitive, I know, but as stated they all provide an identical (and thus, normally non-stacking) bonus. Adding "stacking" in front of those would help out newer players know exactly what theyre getting, specifically.
Shield Charge and Shield Rush cause a lot of video lag/chop. This results in seeming to "teleport" to your destination point rather than watching yourself move forward (as with leap of faith, etc). I realize this might be machine specific, but I have a pretty good machine (everything on, max settings, no fps loss) so making the comment. It may be related to the white "glow effect" the abilities use, as toggling post processing and related settings helps, but does not eliminate the problem. I suspect anyone who has problems with the "druid glow" as they shift forms is going to see the same thing here, only worse.


Harper enhancements:


Enchantment of Deception does not add 5 to bluff as the actual item mutation does, not sure if this is intentional or not.
Enchantment of Magic doesnt apply to your weapon, it just passively adds to universal spellpower. While technically correct, as the enhancement does appear on a weapon when equipped and then not display any change to spellpower, this is going to confuse people. Either change the wording (to say it just adds directly), or shift the bonus to the weapon (so it goes up and down when you take weapons on and off). One or the other is going to work better than having it work in the background while applying text to items which doesnt actually do anything despite saying it does.
Enchantment of Righteousness does not apply "good" to the weapons DR types. Same bug the paladin capstone used to have.


Itemization (bugs):


Sanctified Gages: Need confirmation the Greater Dispelling Guard has enough caster level to function, and only targets effects which are positive for mobs. The Live version does neither of this things.
Epic Bastion of Fealty: Still has superfluous insight bonus to saves against spells.
Epic Scales of Surety: Wow, a change to Medium? The heroic and previous lamannia versions were Light. I realize you wanted to remove Mithril for the MDB and ASF mods, did you accidentally change the armor type while working on it? Serious pain for light armor users...
Epic Chain of Conviction: Same things... a change to Medium? And superfluous insight bonus to saves against spells, same as the plate version. Really a hit to light armor users if they lose this, ouch...
Epic Seraphim: This item still has outdated, low level, non-epic turning mods on it. It should have Silver Flame, Eternal Faith, and Insightful Faith if its trying to stack them all. Sacred and Hallowed are both superseded by better abilities many, many levels and contents before this point.
Mythic Seraphim: Same deal. Adding Silver Flame still leaves the Mythic version out Eternal Faith, and a 3% gain in negative energy absorb does not make this "mythic". The other helms are all *significantly* better in mythic versions now... this one is very weak on the base version and very lackluster on the mythic one. Even if the base one does not replace all the turning mods, surely the Mythic one should.
Epic Glimpse of the Soul: The Illusion and Enchantment bonuses are typed the same as general resistance items, which were +6 back at level 11. By this point, the ones on this item effectlvey contribute nothing. They either need their types changed, or the mods should be replaced with something else.
Epic Locus of Vol: Unless we get specific confirmation than Blood Rage has been changed to not result in what amounts to a near permanent slow on your character, I consider this item bugged due to that effect. I would be very happy to hear that changed, by the way, so that it only applies when ALL the stacks are done, rather than when A stack is gone. But as it stands... yea.
Epic Mentaus Goggles: I get removing the 4 str, but why the change to dex? Theres already many +10/11 dex items (dumathoins, epic ethereals, rising light, etc). But is there a single named +10/11 Str item anywhere? Not that I think str goggles makes sense but... dont want to see str get left out in the wind. The 4 str got moved to a mythic item so thats very hard to get now, for 10/11 we are stuck with random loot gen? Bad situation there.
Epic Boots of the Innocent: Why remove tendon slice? All other "maneuvers" are there but not that one? Very unfortunate, hopefully not intentional... would have been much more fitting to simply see them all there at an equal value.
Knives Eternal: The "Spiked" effect was fixed to work with ranged damage, but still does not apply on spell damage. Either the description, or the effect, needs fixing to reflect this. (Other things which specifcally use a generic "on damage" apply to casts, such as the Dragon Masques "Shadow Spike"). Also, whatever intention is decided upon here, should likewise be reflected on the Battle Ragers Harness, as it has the same effect. I suspect the intent is "on melee/ranged attacks" vs "on any hit", which means the description simply needs adjusting to remove the text indicating it should work on spell casts.


Additionally, the following arent bugs or seemingly bug-related, but its feedback nonetheless. Ive chosen to be brief as I know the patch is due soon, so Ive limited it to the more egregious comments rather than citing everything I could find.

Related, some of even the very small things I mentioned before seem to have been adjusted. For that I thank you, and it makes me happy I was so detail oriented the first time.

Stalwart Defender (feedback):


Shield Expertise should probably be renamed to "Arms Expertise" or something (as in the phrase, "arms and armor", with the pre-req being the armor portion). Minor, but as it affects weapons too, I think a title which isnt explicitly "something else" might be less misleading to newer players who arent reading carefully.


Itemization (feedback):


Shroud of Ardent: The Armor Bonus is still less than what appears on randomly generated loot of the same level. (I realize the item is good, but its a raid item, it should have level appropriate mods, which for armor is +10-12).
Epic Ring of Unknown Origins: The bonus to Disease and Poison saves is still less than what was available at level 20, and they should be increased to +10.
All 4 Armors: Still only have 1 charge of Nightshield. They should have at least 3 charges (the caster level can be lowered to 20, as the items arent in a destiny per se, but one charge is typically very weak).
Silver Lining: The Hardened Spikes 2d6 either needs to be more (its a lv27 item on a shield bash, needs to hit like it) or it needs to scale with Melee Power (probably the cooler solution if you can swing it). Either way, its underpowered at present.
Emerald Twilight: The Riposte effect should go up to where its +4 Insight to saves, rather than +3 (Im not sure what roman numeral value that happens at, but to where its +4 ac and saves). Otherwise that portion is weaker than almost all the alternatives, which is probably not intentional given the role this item is supposed to fill with the surrounding shield changes.
Epic Ethereal Bracers: The Speed modifier should be X not IX. Losing attack speed is basically a practical impossibility at the point this item shows up (the end game).
Mythic Emerald Gaze: The Tendon Slice effect should be 10%, theres no reason for "mytic" items to be worse than things we could readily use back at lv21/22.
Mythic Minos Legens: Being "mythic" and all I think 4 con would be appropriate. The 3 con bonus is enough places that really this should be 4 to be worthy of a mythic level upgrade for a character as a whole.


Hope that helps devs. Still lots to fix in a short time. Good luck, cheers.

EDIT: Didnt have time to check the new Crystal Cove loot. I wish I had more time, the versions last week didnt look to good and I ran out of time then too. Hopefully it can get shaped up at some point. Thx.

poltt48
09-11-2014, 05:44 PM
The cooldown on the Cannith Propulsion Boots is to prevent quests from breaking, and to prevent people from doing a "double jump" using other methods like Abundant Step. No character should ever be able to use two "jump"-style effects one after the other, as it breaks content and causes significant exploits.

You do know that CITW bugs half the time that portals will not open and only way to complete quest when happened was someone take anna and do double jump as you call it right?

UurlockYgmeov
09-11-2014, 06:02 PM
Please note that this shared cooldown is approximately 3 seconds, not the full 10 minutes that the boots have.

ok - so that is so much better. that I like.

Thar
09-11-2014, 06:22 PM
Release Notes (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-9-11-14)) and Known Issues (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438924-Lamannia-Known-Issues-(Last-Updated-9-11-14)) updated.

Also, just a note that this version of Lamannia includes some various bug fixes with the Guild Storage amenity. We'd love to see you try it out on Lamannia and give us more feedback on it!

Very disappointed that nothing about the shield bugs being addressed (silver linings)

nothing about the complaints about the defender/stalwart trees addressed.

I'm sure that there were a lot of bugs that came up and it's been full court press to get those under control. We still see balance issues that haven't been addressed and it seems to be ignored.

edit - silver linings is fixed. pally defender tier 5 reprisal still worthless.

Thar
09-11-2014, 06:25 PM
CRITICAL U23 BUGS REMAIN ... do not go live without fixing these, please.


Paladin Sacred Defender:


Spellshield Aura is still incorrectly typed as an Enhancement bonus to spell resist, rather than a Sacred bonus. This prevents it from stacking correctly. (Also, its rather weak, again I would suggest adding +2/4/6 MRR to this in addition).




Silver Lining: The Hardened Spikes 2d6 either needs to be more (its a lv27 item on a shield bash, needs to hit like it) or it needs to scale with Melee Power (probably the cooler solution if you can swing it). Either way, its underpowered at present

it also doesn't work with shield bash unless this was stealth fixed. edit - stealth fixed.

tier 5 defender tree also is very underpowered and needs to be reworked. The whole tree needs more tweaks to give it appropriate AC for the costs. Nothing done will help pally hold agro since all other classes getting the same 40-50% dps bump.

Shield Expertise in defender should not be prereq to the armor enhancement (which is too weak at 3 ap for 3 pts of ac.)

poltt48
09-11-2014, 06:53 PM
Any idea if adjustments were made to some of the items?

Yes they where the non raid items that where worth getting got nerfed to point that no toon will ever use them and the items people did not want got buffed a little but still ****. HH loot is same level as all the loots here and the item out of there is 20 times better. Other then the raid there is nothing I now want out of this update for loot on all 4 of my 28 level toons I can get better out of Wheloons, HH, or tor loot.

psymun
09-11-2014, 06:58 PM
CRITICAL U23 BUGS REMAIN ... do not go live without fixing these, please.
Paladin KoTC:


Empowered Smite is only applying on regular Smite Evil, not Exalted Smite from the enhancements. It should (both per the description, and per logic).
Avenging Cleave still only applies 1 stack of vulnerability at all ranks. This means its impossible to scale the effect up (it lasts shorter than the cleaves cooldown). Please make the ability apply 1/2/3 stacks of vulnerability for the three ranks of the enhancement, so it can actually build itself up.
Holy Retribution still does not recharge smites. And its still terrible because its a weaker-than-vorpal effect.




:(

BBQZor's analysis is spot on from what I've seen. I took out the 3 issues that bug me the most personally...

Empowered smite does not work on Exalted Smite, not to mention, it's rather weak. +5 for 10 seconds? Human Action Boost Damage give you 20% for 20 seconds and only costs 1 action point, and is a Core 1 ability.
Avenging Cleave hasn't made sense from the get-go. Is this really what was intended?
Holy Retribution was terrible in the first place, and the "boost" doesn't work.

All that being said, the overall attempt to help Paladins has made me very happy.

-Avalon-
09-11-2014, 07:33 PM
Harper - A new enhancement tree is now available to all classes! The Harper tree is free to VIPs, and is also available for purchase in the DDO Store. The tree is as follows:

Tier One (0 AP Required)

Strategic Combat I: You can use your Intelligence modifier to hit with Melee and Missile weapons.


Tier Three (10 AP Required)


(LAMANNIA UPDATE): Strategic Combat II: You can use your Intelligence modifier for damage with Melee and Missile weapons. (NOTE: Moved up to Tier 3 from the previous Lamannia update.)





Hmmm... You guys do realize this made the second part nearly worthless, right? We only get 80 pts, and as having 2 classes (let alone 3) means squeezing almost every pt you get to get all that you need for a build, requiring a character to spend 10 pts just to open the 2nd ability means it will probably be skipped by everyone except pure casters who get a ton of power out of the Harper tree? Everyone else gets 'ok' power out of it now, but could easily get more power out of the trees their own class provides... so why would someone spend (most likely) 12 of their 80 pts just to get int to attack and damage? By the way, it was the low hanging fruit of those two abilities that made it very attractive to melee casters, assassins, even some bards (like the Genghis builds using THF instead of Swashbuckling, but want to have skill pts with a rogue splash)

Just seems contradictory to what this update was doing from the start - taking PA/G.Cleave off the OC feat meant you could be a dex build, cha build, int build and still get OC... then you added Harper with Int (Att/Dam) for 6 or 7 pts (doable, but still a squeeze). And then you pop it to tier 3 so now these people need 5 more spent in a tree that isn't all that great for them? This makes the Int-Builds less of a variety, and more a niche belonging only to Wizards/Arti's (Arti's that get the ability to cover the second half and only spend a couple pts to get the Int (Att) part)...

So, yeah, I second the complaint that Harper is becoming a Wizard-Primary (other caster-secondary/tertiary) tree, or that only people who REALLY need something from it will be going there unless they are a Caster...

moo_cow
09-11-2014, 07:34 PM
Not enough of the items were changed IMO. Not one person liked the armor and yet it doesn't look like it changed (unless I am mistaken). A few other weak items are still very weak as well.

FlaviusMaximus
09-11-2014, 07:58 PM
From the Release Notes:

"NEW: The DDO game launcher now has the option to "preload" the client_gamelogic.dat files, which can speed up initial game load and resolve an issue that could cause players to face an initial dis-connection to the game world upon first log in. Players currently utilizing third-party tools should no longer need to use them. This functionality is enabled by default if you have more than 2 Gigabytes of memory on your computer, and can be disabled in the game launcher options (under the heading Pre-cache gamelogic.)"

Awesome, guys.

Between launcher fixes, the Mirror of Glammering, class power adjustments, ED adjustments, new trees, new content, and plenty of new items, this is looking like a very good update.

Andoris
09-11-2014, 07:59 PM
Negative energy healing being affected by MRR on pale masters still isn't fixed. Bug reported it yet again.I see 25%ish reduction versus live, my only MRR item is Dumathoin's Bracers for sheltering 30, taking them off sends my healing numbers back up. Is this going to be fixed before release? MRR is a pretty substantial nerf for PMs at the moment./signed. please fix this.

G_Lich
09-11-2014, 08:46 PM
/signed. please fix this.

If bbqzor's list is fairly complete then I expect this to be one of the least buggy releases to date. That being said, PM's not being able to heal will pretty much break the class until 23.1 or at least the hotfix - I think if anything should be fixed it is this, and if it means undead trash take heals as heals and not damage, fair trade for now... this coming from a cleric player.

GuntharUthWistan
09-11-2014, 09:12 PM
Bugged it after the "first look" thread and we are now at the fourth look. Sacred Defender (possibly affects stalwart defender) heavy/med armor or shield change does work unless you are dual-wielding. As soon as you offhand a weapon the benefit from Hardy, Tenacious, Strong defense go away. Just wondering if this is still something to be fixed or WAI. I see nothing listed in the known issues.

Also was the Airship rename issue being addressed in U23 or U24?

-Avalon-
09-11-2014, 09:25 PM
/signed. please fix this.


If bbqzor's list is fairly complete then I expect this to be one of the least buggy releases to date. That being said, PM's not being able to heal will pretty much break the class until 23.1 or at least the hotfix - I think if anything should be fixed it is this, and if it means undead trash take heals as heals and not damage, fair trade for now... this coming from a cleric player.

/signed as well. I love my Palemaster Builds, and it's bad enough that there are a ton of abilities that reduce negative energy healing (like the Harper Heal Amp, and still horrible that the Cloak of Night ability IN the PM tree reduces it, which makes no sense, or did they finally fix that without me seeing it?) But to add in a bug that further reduces it? This would break the PM builds out there, I think.

**- As far as I am aware, the Cloak of Night reduces various spell-damage types by 50%... but it makes no sense: Positive Energy (good thing to block as undead), Light (really good), Repair (pointless since most PM's are undead and are immune to it anyways, and if not undead then just makes no sense as a 'Cloak of Night' preventing 'Repair'? Really? It's too dark to fix a machine using magic? /smh) and Negative Energy (why?!? Thought the whole idea of 'Night' was that Negative Energy became MORE powerful, Hence 'Mabar, the Endless Night'?)

The ability should read: "-X% to Positive Energy & Light Damage, and +Y% to Negative Energy Damage" (where X and Y would be different values of course) And my apologies if this is the wrong place to voice this, but since we have a similar issue with MRR currently, I am thinking that maybe the problem is in the same exact coding, which is why they just made CoN reduce ALL of those damages instead of fixing it to be a well-balanced ability. Currently, I don't know ANY palemasters who even glance at that ability because it actually is worse to take it, than to leave it alone, and no enhancement should EVER be that way, if this problem is in the code and is part of why MRR is reducing Negative Energy Damage, maybe both could be fixed at the same time!

Yalinaa
09-11-2014, 09:44 PM
I.E., it breaks your new raid. SMH

This boots nerf is disgusting. They nerf fvs wings because of 1!! raid, LOB, back in that time when that raid was the top one.


And if I want to use double jump, there is better way then cannith boost, which only allows a double jump in every 10 minutes.

psymun
09-11-2014, 10:08 PM
This boots nerf is disgusting. They nerf fvs wings because of 1!! raid, LOB, back in that time when that raid was the top one.

And if I want to use double jump, there is better way then cannith boost, which only allows a double jump in every 10 minutes.



Aren't the lazy ones the people who would rather bypass/exploit a Raid rather than play through it the way it was designed?

I fail to see why not being able to "double jump" is such a big deal to so many people. What benefit does it have other than to use it as an exploit?

the_one_dwarfforged
09-11-2014, 10:18 PM
i noticed that you are changing combat mastery effect name to insightful combat mastery. so, are you also aware that know the angles is also an insight bonus? if they are both insight bonuses they will not stack. this means that know the angles is a completely inferior alternative to divine might for strength builds. divine might, by providing an insight bonus directly to the str stat, effectively applies the same insight damage bonus as know the angles but because its via the stat it gets multiplied by thf and swf. additionally because the same effective insight tactics bonus is applied by directly buffing the str stat, it means that it stacks with ***insightful*** combat mastery items.

so clearly kta is less effective for str thf and swf builds, and dex/con/int/cha swf builds in damage, and less effective in tactics for str builds (for everyone really but its not likely for a non str or cha/str pdk build to actually use melee tactics). and this ability is not going to free an item slot because if know the angles remains an insight bonus, i just wont spend any ap on it and will keep my insightful combat mastery item. id keep it even if i thought i had the ap to spend on kta even if it was still an insight bonus.

so the only builds kta is remotely useful for is dex/con/int/cha dmg builds which dont use tactics. and out of 4 melee fighting styles kta is less effective than dm for 2/4 of them. can you either drop the line about tactics so that we have a clear indication about who this ability is really meant to benefit, or change the bonus type to something other that will stack with combat mastery items? harper bonus maybe? or change combat mastery items to a bonus type other than insight so that it will continue to stack with everything.

as it is the harper tree is not providing enough incentive to me to convince me to buy it. changing this one thing will make all the difference.

Erofen
09-11-2014, 10:22 PM
I fail to see why not being able to "double jump" is such a big deal to so many people. What benefit does it have other than to use it as an exploit?
It makes for some fun public area events and challenges? Disable it in that raid somehow if they must but all areas? HECK NAW!

PermaBanned
09-11-2014, 11:03 PM
This boots nerf is disgusting.The nerf to double jumping is situationally disappointing, but if I understood Varg's post correctly the Boot's cool down just got super buffed from 10 minutes down to ~3 seconds - a trade I'm more than happy with.

Yalinaa
09-11-2014, 11:04 PM
Aren't the lazy ones the people who would rather bypass/exploit a Raid rather than play through it the way it was designed?

I fail to see why not being able to "double jump" is such a big deal to so many people. What benefit does it have other than to use it as an exploit?

It's one raid most people will run 20 times and done with it.

Dunno it's an exploit or not, but when Risia festival is on, I usually do a "double jump" for that easy purple coin before stepping in Servants on EE.

There are some nice places in Eberron where you can do double jump for some kinda fun moments.

The only quest/raid where you benefit from this jump "greatly" is the new raid. So yes, they are punishing us for their own laziness.

Scrabbler
09-11-2014, 11:05 PM
Character sheet suggestion

There's a new little icon which you can mouseover to see MELEE POWER, which shows your Melee Weapon Power and Ranged Weapon Power numbers.

I suggest that instead of a separate icon, that information be added to the bottom of the existing ATTACK SPEED icon (just to the left). Also, in addition to printing Melee Weapon Power as a single number "10", also on the same line show a number telling the percentage % of damage gained.


Also, add your running speed and offhand proc % to that box.

Kuttamia
09-11-2014, 11:07 PM
Will there be more sources of MRR in the future? Currently as it stands, MRR max is pretty far away from PRR max.

bbqzor
09-11-2014, 11:32 PM
If bbqzor's list is fairly complete then I expect this to be one of the least buggy releases to date.

While I appreciate the vote of confidence, I cannot claim its complete. Its as thorough as I can do in what time I have. Hopefully I got most of the big stuff though, along with the other posters contributing as well.


Negative energy healing being affected by MRR on pale masters still isn't fixed. Bug reported it yet again.

Havent verified this myself, but I would encourage the devs to look. This is the kind of thing that simply cannot make it to live, itll crush peoples ability to play.


i noticed that you are changing combat mastery effect name to insightful combat mastery. so, are you also aware that know the angles is also an insight bonus? if they are both insight bonuses they will not stack.

Tested and confirmed they both do stack still. And yes, they both say "Insight" as type. Apparently, "Combat Mastery" items are adding directly to the "combat maneuvers", while the enhancement is adding to "tactics". Then the game is adding your "combat maneuver" plus "tactics" mods together.

So its calculating like "+10 to Trip" and "+10 to Tactics" and then adding "Trip + Tactics", allowing it to benefit from the same type twice. This is a unique situation, but it is working correctly. Normally I would suggest changing the naming to make this clearer, but uh, honestly its working now and looks complicated and I honestly think they are probably better off just not touching it. It will just take some time for players to adapt to realizing that "tactics" is its own source they can add to, which then indirectly adds to "maneuvers", allowing the bonuses to stack.

...

One thing I have not tested is how this affects Monks. Quivering Palm is currently bugged, it does not benefit from "Tactics" modifiers as it is supposed to.

[source of claim, patch notes for update 21, on march 10, 2014: "General Tactical combat boosts to Quivering Palm have been restored (except for Sundering effects). This is the full text of Quivering Palm: “Melee Attack: Deliver a fatal attack by sending waves of vibrations through your target. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect. (DC = 10 + 1/2 Monk Level + Wisdom Modifier + Tactics Bonus)"]

Currently on live QP receives no such bonus, making the DC basically worthless. The tactics bonus needs fixing to work; for example Combat Mastery, Legendary Tactics, Tactician Feat, etc all do nothing where they should do something.

Stands to reason then it would also not benefit from KtA, so that adds another bug to the problem. Not that "int monks" are going to become "a thing" or something, but itd be nice to see their core abilities fixed, so that if someone wants to they can pursue that option using the new ability which is working correctly.

...

EDIT: Oh yea forgot this request:


Please add "Exalted Cleave" as a substitute to the list of pre-reqs for Momentum Swing and Lay Waste, as an "either-or" option with cleave.

Reason being, that currently paladins (and only paladins) are forced into a situation where they have to take a feat they cannot possible use, in order to utilize those abilities. They have no way to get them without taking the Cleave feat, but cannot use that feat at all with this enhancement. This is dissimilar from other classes which simply get additional cleave mechanics, as those all work with cleave. This one replaces it. So it stands to reason the replacement should also unlock the epic ability. (keeping the power attack requirement is fine, as paladins can utilize that same as anyone else... only the cleave becomes a completely "sunk feat").

Thanks.

Xianio
09-12-2014, 12:09 AM
Counterattack: Action Boost: You gain On Shield Block: Your next attack within 3 seconds gains +1[W]. This stacks (1/2/3) times.

If this isn't going to get reworrked, please delete this enhancement. It's completely useless as a skill itself and an AP sink as a pre-req.

the_one_dwarfforged
09-12-2014, 12:43 AM
Tested and confirmed they both do stack still. And yes, they both say "Insight" as type. Apparently, "Combat Mastery" items are adding directly to the "combat maneuvers", while the enhancement is adding to "tactics". Then the game is adding your "combat maneuver" plus "tactics" mods together.

So its calculating like "+10 to Trip" and "+10 to Tactics" and then adding "Trip + Tactics", allowing it to benefit from the same type twice. This is a unique situation, but it is working correctly. Normally I would suggest changing the naming to make this clearer, but uh, honestly its working now and looks complicated and I honestly think they are probably better off just not touching it. It will just take some time for players to adapt to realizing that "tactics" is its own source they can add to, which then indirectly adds to "maneuvers", allowing the bonuses to stack.


this is really good news. they should change the names though, but yea i agree id rather not have them break/nerf it.

The_Human_Cypher
09-12-2014, 01:30 AM
Release Notes (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-9-11-14)) and Known Issues (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438924-Lamannia-Known-Issues-(Last-Updated-9-11-14)) updated.

Also, just a note that this version of Lamannia includes some various bug fixes with the Guild Storage amenity. We'd love to see you try it out on Lamannia and give us more feedback on it!

I checked out the Guild Storage amenity and it seems to work properly now. Since the developers were able to fix this feature and add up to 400 slots of new storage space, does this mean we may be seeing much more bank and/or character storage in the near future? I would pay big bucks for 400 slots of Shared Bank space!

Stoner81
09-12-2014, 03:55 AM
EDIT - Nevermind please ignore :)

Stoner81.

mikarddo
09-12-2014, 04:07 AM
The nerf to double jumping is situationally disappointing, but if I understood Varg's post correctly the Boot's cool down just got super buffed from 10 minutes down to ~3 seconds - a trade I'm more than happy with.

Ofcourse not, that would be completely crazy.

I am fairly certain the change is that
- if you use boots / wings / step over whatever, the ability / gear you used gets it normal cooldown AND additionally no such ability/gear can be used the next 3 seconds.

How you could read it that boots were mega upgraded to click every 3 sec I cannot even begin to imagine :)

MagicBlue
09-12-2014, 05:01 AM
NEW: The Cannith Propulsion Boots now share a cooldown with Abundant Step and Leap of Faith.

NO NO NO NO PLEASE NO! I have not been able to do the house k super jump or harbor jump yet. :/

Which is the sense of sharing the cooldowns of abilities that have a complete different source?

Steelstar
09-12-2014, 06:14 AM
I.E., it breaks your new raid. SMH

Using the double-abundant-step in older versions of the new Raid was definitely convenient, but it wasn't the driving factor behind this change (especially with changes in the current version of the Raid on Lamannia).

Scrabbler
09-12-2014, 06:15 AM
KOTC nerf

In u23 Fourth Look, the KOTC tier5 has had the Melee Power reduced from 10 to 5. This means taking tier5 in that tree is a lot less appealing. It doesn't have a Smite recharger going for it either. The Harper tier5 is actually directly better in that regard, as it gives 1 more Melee Power and some spellpower, and about +5 passive weapon damage.

You'll still want KOTC t5 if you're a non-Construct fighting monsters with negative levels and dispel, which happens to be common in the new content. But aside from that, the t5 is weaker. (This looks like a good opportunity to take some of the power away from the Holy Sword spell and move it into tier5)

Purkilius
09-12-2014, 06:20 AM
Hi,

There's some disappointing stuff in these release notes after this many iterations.

The shared cooldown for long jump items and abilities is bogus. As far as I know, it hasn't so far been ruthlessly exploited or broken the game for the years of time these things have been on separate cooldowns. I suspect this has something to do with the new content that could have been fixed some other way or better designed, except it wasn't noticed in time.

Not including shiradi in the melee power buff is pretty poor, and not providing an explanation after repeated community requests for it is even poorer. You're buffing a number of stronger destinies for melee but still leaving this weaker one out? There's going to have to be one heck of a ranged buff to balance that out.

And at the end of this, what we're going to have is LD = melee strong/ranged strong, FOTW = melee strong/ranged strong and Shiradi = melee weak/ranged (at best) strong. That wouldn't exactly be a success in terms of the stated design goals of improving balance and giving players more choices.

Similarly, not including the TWF style in the melee power buff is also quite poor. Fiddling around with a couple of enhancements which some TWF builds don't or can't take doesn't fix the problem. If you think some TWF builds are too strong, the solution is not to do something that leaves other weaker TWF builds behind. You have other options which will give better outcomes.

Thanks.

This post just made to much sense ^^

I did a 12 sorc 6 ranger 2 pally TWF with a ranged option and played a lot in Shiradi and it could use some melee powah :)

In sake of balance why not give TWF +2% doublestrike for each feat 6% in total for all three...

Purkilius
09-12-2014, 06:24 AM
KOTC nerf

In u23 Fourth Look, the KOTC tier5 has had the Melee Power reduced from 10 to 5. This means taking tier5 in that tree is a lot less appealing. It doesn't have a Smite recharger going for it either. The Harper tier5 is actually directly better in that regard, as it gives 1 more Melee Power and some spellpower, and about +5 passive weapon damage.

You'll still want KOTC t5 if you're a non-Construct fighting monsters with negative levels and dispel, which happens to be common in the new content. But aside from that, the t5 is weaker. (This looks like a good opportunity to take some of the power away from the Holy Sword spell and move it into tier5)

Really not happy about this I was finally seeing a reason to go pure, what a strange thing to do....

Purkilius
09-12-2014, 06:26 AM
I checked out the Guild Storage amenity and it seems to work properly now. Since the developers were able to fix this feature and add up to 400 slots of new storage space, does this mean we may be seeing much more bank and/or character storage in the near future? I would pay big bucks for 400 slots of Shared Bank space!

Same here :)

toapat
09-12-2014, 07:17 AM
as has been said, Empowered Smite evil doesnt work with Exaulted Smite.

the return of immortal Kobolds is fantastic though

poltt48
09-12-2014, 07:58 AM
KOTC nerf

In u23 Fourth Look, the KOTC tier5 has had the Melee Power reduced from 10 to 5. This means taking tier5 in that tree is a lot less appealing. It doesn't have a Smite recharger going for it either. The Harper tier5 is actually directly better in that regard, as it gives 1 more Melee Power and some spellpower, and about +5 passive weapon damage.

You'll still want KOTC t5 if you're a non-Construct fighting monsters with negative levels and dispel, which happens to be common in the new content. But aside from that, the t5 is weaker. (This looks like a good opportunity to take some of the power away from the Holy Sword spell and move it into tier5)

Yeah I do not see why they lowered melee power on tier 5 either. Feels like they are forceing all pallys to go vanguard witch personally hate tree of cause unless you invest tons of points in it does not do much for you.

Mystera
09-12-2014, 08:00 AM
Negative energy healing being affected by MRR on pale masters still isn't fixed. Bug reported it yet again.

I see 25%ish reduction versus live, my only MRR item is Dumathoin's Bracers for sheltering 30, taking them off sends my healing numbers back up.




Is this going to be fixed before release? MRR is a pretty substantial nerf for PMs at the moment.

This should definitely be fixed prior to launch. Why would you launch something that buffs most all classes in the game and nerfs pale masters? It's already annoying enough that past lifes, racial enhancements, and most items in the game that boost healing amp don't work for a pale master, but to make MRR actually reduce a pale masters ability to stay alive is a complete slap in the face.

deathblaze
09-12-2014, 08:21 AM
I like that the trip effect has been added to Shield Rush, But now there's a lot less to gain for 1-4 in this tree. Couldn't Shield Charge get a lesser trip effect, maybe Shield Rush could be an add on to Shield Charge allowing it to hit more targets (and raising the DC). instead of making Shield Charge a throwaway attack (huge waste of AP). And could you consider giving "Sheild specialization" +2 AC on the even levels (the way Orcish Weapon Training does) so that it seems a little more worth it?

Something like this would be nice.
Tier 1 - "Shield Smash" would evolve into "Stunning Shield" at Tier 2
Tier 4 - "Shield Charge" would evolve into "Shield Rush" at Tier 5

That way you get two active attacks in the tree that get stronger with ap, Instead of two good actives and two AC sinks.

And lastly, I like what you did with "Vanguard Armor mastery", but isn't tier 4 a bit high for a +3 Ac & max dex enhancement?

Or maybe even give shield charge a stun... its just not very useful without some type of CC...

THIS. I still don't get what's the point of having Shield Charge and Shield Rush as 2 separate enhancements.
Heck they both have the same animation and the description for Shield Charge even says "...Activate: Rush forward up to... "

And yes, Vanguard Armor Mastery IS too high up the tier tree and as someone else mentioned, is useless for tower shield users.
Which then we also must question, why can't feat-starved paladins get the proficiency to use tower shields for free?

General_Gronker
09-12-2014, 08:57 AM
I fail to see why not being able to "double jump" is such a big deal to so many people.
Doesn't really matter what you do or do not see.

What benefit does it have other than to use it as an exploit?

Doesn't matter, it's part of a larger trend (see below) that you are ignoring in an attempt to score some kind of point.

This

as it breaks content and causes significant exploits.
is one of the most important ongoing issues with the game and has been for a while, but the developers refuse to address it. This goes all the way back to nerfs to things like Wail, disease/poison immunity, FoM, etc.

If something is breaking your content or interfering with your story, then you CHANGE THE CONTENT OR THE STORY. Nerfing gear and abilities to compensate is lazy and irresponsible design. It's the kind of thing that get you booted out of the Big Chair at a pnp table.

patang01
09-12-2014, 09:05 AM
Or you could, you know, actually just fix the new raid by moving any conflicting platform. And if having fun is an exploit, than yes, I have been abusing the heck out of that exploit. Besides whatever is in that new raid their is NO content it trivializes that you are not super over level for anyways.

/notsigned

So allowing the creation of exploiter builds that includes lots of Monk splashes leads to a negative effect that requires a change? Who'd guess. Like most content requiring evasion that lead to the armor up with added MRR for non evading toons.

It's almost like the stuff we've been pointing out is leading to the stuff we've pointed out. Amazing. We'll see just how anti caster this current raid will be. Or suddenly we've going to see a lot of rerolls to Pally robots just to get the stuff. I like some of the stuff, but I'm not going to down a dozen or more pots each time to deal with respawning trash. That stuff is getting boring in each new raid.

zaphear
09-12-2014, 09:47 AM
...why do people want Melee Power with the Shiradi tree? It's not a melee tree by ANY MEANS WHAT SO EVER...or am I completely missing something here.

CaptainSpacePony
09-12-2014, 09:55 AM
The nerf to double jumping is situationally disappointing, but if I understood Varg's post correctly the Boot's cool down just got super buffed from 10 minutes down to ~3 seconds - a trade I'm more than happy with.

I think you misunderstood. The boots still have a cool down of 10 min. The shared cool down he referred to is if, for example, you abundant step, you cannot use boots, abundant step, or any other "wing" effect for 3 seconds.

There's no buff here, just a minor, containment nerf.

Erofen
09-12-2014, 09:59 AM
So allowing the creation of exploiter builds that includes lots of Monk splashes leads to a negative effect that requires a change? Who'd guess. Like most content requiring evasion that lead to the armor up with added MRR for non evading toons.

It's almost like the stuff we've been pointing out is leading to the stuff we've pointed out. Amazing. We'll see just how anti caster this current raid will be. Or suddenly we've going to see a lot of rerolls to Pally robots just to get the stuff. I like some of the stuff, but I'm not going to down a dozen or more pots each time to deal with respawning trash. That stuff is getting boring in each new raid.
So any multiclass with a decent synergy = exploiter builds... got it, and I play exclusively pures atm. This double jump has existed for how many years and it is just now a problem? That is purely the poor design of the new raid. The only issue it might cause is Abbot and eAbbot, but even then you can get across without goggles in less than a minute. Lets just remove all rooftops and high places from the game and all run on the dumb road. Share the cooldown in the Ascension chamber only if you have to, but lets not ruin it for public areas.

Rull
09-12-2014, 10:07 AM
Hmmm... You guys do realize this made the second part nearly worthless, right? We only get 80 pts, and as having 2 classes (let alone 3) means squeezing almost every pt you get to get all that you need for a build, requiring a character to spend 10 pts just to open the 2nd ability means it will probably be skipped by everyone except pure casters who get a ton of power out of the Harper tree? Everyone else gets 'ok' power out of it now, but could easily get more power out of the trees their own class provides... so why would someone spend (most likely) 12 of their 80 pts just to get int to attack and damage? By the way, it was the low hanging fruit of those two abilities that made it very attractive to melee casters, assassins, even some bards (like the Genghis builds using THF instead of Swashbuckling, but want to have skill pts with a rogue splash)

Just seems contradictory to what this update was doing from the start - taking PA/G.Cleave off the OC feat meant you could be a dex build, cha build, int build and still get OC... then you added Harper with Int (Att/Dam) for 6 or 7 pts (doable, but still a squeeze). And then you pop it to tier 3 so now these people need 5 more spent in a tree that isn't all that great for them? This makes the Int-Builds less of a variety, and more a niche belonging only to Wizards/Arti's (Arti's that get the ability to cover the second half and only spend a couple pts to get the Int (Att) part)...

So, yeah, I second the complaint that Harper is becoming a Wizard-Primary (other caster-secondary/tertiary) tree, or that only people who REALLY need something from it will be going there unless they are a Caster...

I disagree. This only makes int-builds less of a default and more a variety. With the previous lamania 23 version, there was almost no reason to go dex or cha based since int-builds overshadowed these options. I'd expect even more int-based builds tha str-baded if that build went live.
Now with this changes it takes a bit more investment, decreasing the dominance of int-based characters slightly.

Steelstar
09-12-2014, 10:22 AM
This double jump has existed for how many years and it is just now a problem? That is purely the poor design of the new raid. The only issue it might cause is Abbot and eAbbot, but even then you can get across without goggles in less than a minute.

To be clear: The new raid is not the driving force behind this change, and the issue you're referring to is not present in the current version of the Raid content (regardless of the boots change).

Rull
09-12-2014, 10:39 AM
@Cordovan

I like the nerf to abundant step chaining.

I do think it is an error to call the previous use an 'exploit' or to call using it in any situation an 'exploit'.
Exploits in my opinion are things you should get banned for. Not the use of in-game mechanics to your advantage to overcome challenges, even if it is not the way a designer forsaw the challenge to be overcome.

patang01
09-12-2014, 10:47 AM
@Cordovan

I like the nerf to abundant step chaining.

I do think it is an error to call the previous use an 'exploit' or to call using it in any situation an 'exploit'.
Exploits in my opinion are things you should get banned for. Not the use of in-game mechanics to your advantage to overcome challenges, even if it is not the way a designer forsaw the challenge to be overcome.

Like the jump you could do in dust (now changed) that allowed melee to be able to finish dust without dealing with the silly double jeopardy mechanic of managing to finish the second part without more then 5 dead spiders and then somehow have to survive not getting the last spiders killed in the end. Now without the jump chance we're back at having to do dust with insta killers or you're most likely going to waste your entire time trying to do it.

-Avalon-
09-12-2014, 10:50 AM
I disagree. This only makes int-builds less of a default and more a variety. With the previous lamania 23 version, there was almost no reason to go dex or cha based since int-builds overshadowed these options. I'd expect even more int-based builds tha str-baded if that build went live.
Now with this changes it takes a bit more investment, decreasing the dominance of int-based characters slightly.

I don't understand why, could you be more specific and give examples of builds. Because as I currently see it, the problem is that people are (currently, on live) pushed towards using strength almost 100% (yes, you can do cha or dex, but str works SO much better!)

Currently:
Str gives PA, Cleave, Great Cleave, OC
Dex gives Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack (and WWA if you have int as well)
Int gives Combat Reflexes
Wis gives Zen
Cha doesn't really give much combat-wise

This means that if you want to be good in combat, you need to invest at least some into str. The rest of the stats can be used, but now are pushing limits as you have to put some into str, get a decent con, and still put pts into the other stat. Forget for now the top-end toons that have +4 or better tomes on all stats, 36 pt builds, etc... work from a first life, no tomes, stand point because that is the minimum that Dev's need to build around. If no one can start the game, then they won't continue the game, right?

Now, originally, the U23 changes allowed:
Str still gives PA, Cleave, Great Cleave (but not OC, as it has no requirement anymore) (still good for combat-based, but now only needs a 13 for PA-feat-chain vs 23)
Dex still gives Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack (and WWA if you have Int as well) (great for some rogue builds or ranger builds)
Int gives Combat Reflexes (and with ~7 pts spent, can be used for Att/Dam!) (best for wizards, arti's, most rogue builds)
Wis still gives Zen (no way to use for Att aside from that) (best for ranged attack builds for most part, the rest use dex, or str if thrower)
Cha still doesn't give anything really, BUT, can be used for Att/Dam as a PDK (best for paladin, favored soul, bard)

And we would have had ample variety, because the only change/addition at this pt, would be to add a way for people to use Wis for Att/Dam, and a +Wis race. After the changes to make SCII tier 3, the cost for Int Att/Dam combo became ~12 pts instead of ~7, a difference of 5 pts (15% of total pts instead of 8.75%) and since the most often complaint and suggestion I hear/see is that they should award 1 or 2 AP per Epic level since 80 just doesn't cut it, asking a person to spend an additional 6.25% of their AP to have what Str-based people, MOST dex-based (due to core enhancements in trees that they WANT to spend pts in) or Cha-based toons that go PDK and spend 3 pts, or Wis-Based who only spend a feat (that most of them get as a basic bonus for taking the couple levels in a class they chose for OTHER reasons, so the feat is PURE-bonus)...

So:

Get it free
Get it as a bonus
Get it for 3 AP
Get it for 1 or 2 Extra AP on the way to enhancements you already plan on getting
Spend ~12 pts (vs the ~7 AP before, especially seeing as these Enh. should already exist in the EK tree thus putting them with the 4th pt above instead)


You tell me, how making people spend 5 more AP equates to MORE variety?? Looks to me like it pigeon-holes Int-Based builds back into 'other-stat' builds, which equals 'less variety'.

Severlin
09-12-2014, 11:01 AM
CRITICAL U23 BUGS REMAIN ... do not go live without fixing these, please.

Feats:


The Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning line does not apply to shields. It should, they are functionally blunt weapons, both in ddo and pnp.
The Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning line does not apply to shields. It should, they are functionally blunt weapons, both in ddo and pnp.
Improved Critical: Bludgeoning does not apply to shields. It should, they are functionally blunt weapons, both in ddo and pnp.




We are not planning on changing how shields interact with these feats for this update. If we did this then we are essentially forcing Vanguard builds into using bludgeoning main hand weapons and essentially eliminating the sword and shield archetype.



Paladin KoTC:


Divine Light still does not mention scaling with Melee Power in the description, and still does not scale with Melee Power when used. This update is totally absent.
Action Boost Melee Power still costs 2 AP per rank. It is the only action boost not updated to cost 1, and as the exact same thing is in Harper (which everyone can access), and at the same tier, and it costs 1 there.... and in the Vanguard tree (which paladins can access), and at the same tier, and it costs 1 there... I am forced to conclude this was an oversight. The cost needs to be lowered to 1 AP per tier, unless you specifically say this is intended (which I would then point out how illogical that is, but for now assuming it just got missed and is a bug).
Empowered Smite is only applying on regular Smite Evil, not Exalted Smite from the enhancements. It should (both per the description, and per logic).
Avenging Cleave still only applies 1 stack of vulnerability at all ranks. This means its impossible to scale the effect up (it lasts shorter than the cleaves cooldown). Please make the ability apply 1/2/3 stacks of vulnerability for the three ranks of the enhancement, so it can actually build itself up.
Holy Retribution still does not recharge smites. And its still terrible because its a weaker-than-vorpal effect.



~ Known issue, but might get pushed to patch.
~ Known issue we are working on.
~ Known issue we are working on.
~ Working as designed. You'll need to combine this with other enhancements or items to get it to stack.



Paladin Sacred Defender:


Spellshield Aura is still incorrectly typed as an Enhancement bonus to spell resist, rather than a Sacred bonus. This prevents it from stacking correctly. (Also, its rather weak, again I would suggest adding +2/4/6 MRR to this in addition).



Not currently on our list of bugs as it is an existing unchanged enhancement, but I'll take a look at it.



Vanguard enhancements:


In the Cores, it might be nice to add the word "stacking" to the Combat Style Speed in the 4th, 5th, and 6th ones. Its intuitive, I know, but as stated they all provide an identical (and thus, normally non-stacking) bonus. Adding "stacking" in front of those would help out newer players know exactly what theyre getting, specifically.
Shield Charge and Shield Rush cause a lot of video lag/chop. This results in seeming to "teleport" to your destination point rather than watching yourself move forward (as with leap of faith, etc). I realize this might be machine specific, but I have a pretty good machine (everything on, max settings, no fps loss) so making the comment. It may be related to the white "glow effect" the abilities use, as toggling post processing and related settings helps, but does not eliminate the problem. I suspect anyone who has problems with the "druid glow" as they shift forms is going to see the same thing here, only worse.



~ We generally use the term "now" to indicate that it upgrades the previous version. As in "this enhancement now grants +10" when a previous enhancement granted +5.



Harper enhancements:


Enchantment of Deception does not add 5 to bluff as the actual item mutation does, not sure if this is intentional or not.
Enchantment of Magic doesnt apply to your weapon, it just passively adds to universal spellpower. While technically correct, as the enhancement does appear on a weapon when equipped and then not display any change to spellpower, this is going to confuse people. Either change the wording (to say it just adds directly), or shift the bonus to the weapon (so it goes up and down when you take weapons on and off). One or the other is going to work better than having it work in the background while applying text to items which doesnt actually do anything despite saying it does.
Enchantment of Righteousness does not apply "good" to the weapons DR types. Same bug the paladin capstone used to have.



~ Intended
~ Might not get to this for 23.
~ I'll add this to the list. Thanks.



Itemization (bugs):

<snip>

Additionally, the following arent bugs or seemingly bug-related, but its feedback nonetheless. Ive chosen to be brief as I know the patch is due soon, so Ive limited it to the more egregious comments rather than citing everything I could find.

Related, some of even the very small things I mentioned before seem to have been adjusted. For that I thank you, and it makes me happy I was so detail oriented the first time.

Stalwart Defender (feedback):


Shield Expertise should probably be renamed to "Arms Expertise" or something (as in the phrase, "arms and armor", with the pre-req being the armor portion). Minor, but as it affects weapons too, I think a title which isnt explicitly "something else" might be less misleading to newer players who arent reading carefully.


Itemization (feedback):

<snip>



~ If we get a chance we will look at the enhancement name. It's low on our priority list.

~ Our itemization people are looking through this feedback as well.

Sev~

PermaBanned
09-12-2014, 11:31 AM
Using the double-abundant-step in older versions of the new Raid was definitely convenient, but it wasn't the driving factor behind this change (especially with changes in the current version of the Raid on Lamannia).Ok, so what was "the driving factor behind this change" then? With so many things that needed doing - but didn't get done, I would love to know what put this high on the priority list.

poltt48
09-12-2014, 11:34 AM
You guys totally destroyed harper. It is now a useless tree don't know why anyone would use it. First you moved int to damage to tier 3 why no one can say. Second you halfed all the universal spell power, melee power, and ranged power. Now you get 1 of each for 1 enhancement point. What a waste of enhancement points there is no class that can benift from all of them. All casters trees get 3 universal for 1 point. Pally gets 5 melee for 1 point in one tree 10 melee power for 2 points in another. 2 per point was pushing it but now that they are all one per point it is not worth spending enhancements on really don't see what build the 2 per was really helping so much that you had to nerf it.

Dagolar
09-12-2014, 11:37 AM
Not including shiradi in the melee power buff is pretty poor, and not providing an explanation after repeated community requests for it is even poorer. You're buffing a number of stronger destinies for melee but still leaving this weaker one out? There's going to have to be one heck of a ranged buff to balance that out.


They explicitly mentioned Shiradi being left out until Ranged Power pass, and that they couldn't fit Ranged Power in with the current update.
I'm not sure what you're expecting, perhaps you could clarify that instead.





Enchantment of Deception does not add 5 to bluff as the actual item mutation does, not sure if this is intentional or not.


~ Working as designed. You'll need to combine this with other enhancements or items to get it to stack.


Ehm.
The Improved Deception item enchantment adds +5 Bluff.
The Deception item enchantment does not.
That is the sole difference between the two enchantments, unless they've recently been changed.
On non-legacy (that is to say, more recent) items, Deception (I, II, etc) also adds Sneak Attack, but a bit irrelevant to the point.

The Harper Enhancement clearly states 'Improved Deception', rather than 'Deception'.
If this is working as designed, then the Enhancement description is incorrect.

Cordovan
09-12-2014, 11:47 AM
Ok, so what was "the driving factor behind this change" then? With so many things that needed doing - but didn't get done, I would love to know what put this high on the priority list.

We explained this yesterday, but the driver for this change is to prevent double-jumping from continuing to break quests and other content, and prevent exploits.

Rull
09-12-2014, 11:59 AM
I don't understand why, could you be more specific and give examples of builds. Because as I currently see it, the problem is that people are (currently, on live) pushed towards using strength almost 100% (yes, you can do cha or dex, but str works SO much better!)

...

Int gives Combat Reflexes


You are missing a big one. Int gives half your int modifier extra damage.

If you need examples, think rogue, melee ranger, archer ranger, monk, monkcher, bard, artificer, druid, any mulitclass of these, any multiclass of these with less than 12 levels fighter.... any DPS toon that doesn't include 2 paladin, 12 fighter or 20 barbarian. (actually, even TWF paladins get more damage if they go max int and dumpstat str and cha).

Also, note how those are exactly the classes that could consider going cha, con or dex instead of STR (2 paladin, 12 fighter or 20 barbarian would not). Hence reducing the number of int-based builds will increase the number of cha and dex based.


You tell me, how making people spend 5 more AP equates to MORE variety?? Looks to me like it pigeon-holes Int-Based builds back into 'other-stat' builds, which equals 'less variety'.

Instead of [50% intbased, 50% strbased and <1% other] as would be the situation if u23 was unchanged, I hope we will now get [10% dex, 10% cha/con, 20% int and 60% str-based]. Because at least some builds that would deal max damage when going int will be discouraged by the AP cost.
Note: Numbers are used examplary of course but should show how this change could actually increase variety (dependent on your definition of variety).

Rull
09-12-2014, 12:24 PM
You are missing a big one. Int gives half your int modifier extra damage.

If you need examples, think rogue, melee ranger, archer ranger, monk, monkcher, bard, artificer, druid, any mulitclass of these, any multiclass of these with less than 12 levels fighter.... any DPS toon that doesn't include 2 paladin, 12 fighter or 20 barbarian. (actually, even TWF paladins get more damage if they go max int and dumpstat str and cha).

Also, note how those are exactly the classes that could consider going cha, con or dex instead of STR (2 paladin, 12 fighter or 20 barbarian would not). Hence reducing the number of int-based builds will increase the number of cha and dex based.



Instead of [50% intbased, 50% strbased and <1% other] as would be the situation if u23 was unchanged, I hope we will now get [10% dex, 10% cha/con, 20% int and 60% str-based]. Because at least some builds that would deal max damage when going int will be discouraged by the AP cost.
Note: Numbers are used examplary of course but should show how this change could actually increase variety (dependent on your definition of variety).

For a TWF, to equal the damage of 60 INT with the two int enhancements, you would need to get 92 STR (or DEX, CHA, CON) without.
The cost of 12 AP may not even prove to be enough of a deterrent.

bbqzor
09-12-2014, 12:46 PM
Firstly, thanks for responding. It is very encouraging to see most of them are being worked on before the patch, a welcome sight. A few comments to add context:


We are not planning on changing how shields interact with these feats for this update. If we did this then we are essentially forcing Vanguard builds into using bludgeoning main hand weapons and essentially eliminating the sword and shield archetype.

While this makes some level of sense, it also severely punishes the vanguard tree by proxy. I did not have time to provide extensive feedback about it last week, and now with the update looming I am not sure such feedback would be of any practical use. Suffice it to say: with few to no ways to increase shield "base stats" I feel vanguard is extremely underpowered in the dps options it provides. As it also provides little in the way of meaningful defense (relative to the other trees either class could take), I have trouble seeing "the point" of the tree. Itll wind up being something that gets splashed 10-15 pts into, for random whatevers, and thats it. Which is a shame because it felt fun, I liked the play feeling. It just needs more oomph.

If you have time to make more adjustments, please say so and Ill provide something more specific and detailed (I realize this is too general to do much, of course). Because honestly, with no way to bump shield dps, even at the 60/min rate who cares. For reference, a regular s/b guy swinging at 102 atk/min with haste taking just one two weapon feat gets ~40 offhand atk/min. If I spend multiple feats and nearly a whole enhancement tree, I can get 60 here? Maybe? Of something with no way to peripherally enhance the attack? Not enticing.

After thinking about it I do agree using feats may not be the right way to help the situation (it would basically mean only fighters had any hope of using vanguard with a bsword/daxe for glances, which is one of its big appeals, so yea). But it does definitely need help... two weeks might simply have been too short a window to get good feedback on it. Again, please let me know if its not too late, Ill find some time to get something detailed together.


~ Known issue, but might get pushed to patch.
~ Known issue we are working on.
~ Known issue we are working on.
~ Working as designed. You'll need to combine this with other enhancements or items to get it to stack.
One, no comment on the Holy Retribution line (I had 5 bullets, you responded to 4). Is that also KI being worked on? Or...?

Two, for avenging cleave.... ugh. Theres really very little reason to take this past 1 rank then. Yes, I know it adds W, but suffice it to say that in terms of raw dps math over time thats not much of a gain. Not to mention, with the global cd on how fast vulnerability can apply, theres a real chance for the cleave to not add anything at all when combined with other things... what if it lands inside the 1s lockout? Very hard to time. Honestly, with this being essentially weak, holy retribution being weak (if fixed, otherwise its just broke), and censure demons being very limited in mob type (currently) theres just almost zero draw in T5 of the kotc tree. I expect almost every paladin to be in sacred defender now (as per above, vanguard is also too lightweight). Too cookie cutter for my liking, I hope you get time to revise some things.


Not currently on our list of bugs as it is an existing unchanged enhancement, but I'll take a look at it.

Thank you, it was broken when it got released and has been broken the whole time. Its just so weak no one made a big deal about it next to other things (like the champion of good capstone) which were a big deal and still didnt get fixed until now. Its definitely bugged as described, so I hope you can quickly see whats up and get a fix in (as well as please add MRR, just no one much cares about 6 SR its almost impossible for anyone but barbs to get enough to matter. I only mention the bug because if youre in there fixing stuff, might as well fix it all).


If we get a chance we will look at the enhancement name. It's low on our priority list.

Fair enough, as its 100% apparent to anyone reading carefully, this amounts to a cosmetic change so understandable.


Our itemization people are looking through this feedback as well.

Thanks. The changes removing light armor are easily the most troubling, itd be good to know if that was 100% intentional or just if removing mithral accidentally fudged something (and if it all went to medium, let me be the first to protest, light armor needs their armor). Obviously theres a plethora of other issues but I realize time is at a premium so tried to keep the list light (oh the puns).

Thanks. Hopefully youll have time to fix up QP too, right? =) Good luck.

-Avalon-
09-12-2014, 12:48 PM
You are missing a big one. Int gives half your int modifier extra damage.

If you need examples, think rogue, melee ranger, archer ranger, monk, monkcher, bard, artificer, druid, any mulitclass of these, any multiclass of these with less than 12 levels fighter.... any DPS toon that doesn't include 2 paladin, 12 fighter or 20 barbarian. (actually, even TWF paladins get more damage if they go max int and dumpstat str and cha).

Also, note how those are exactly the classes that could consider going cha, con or dex instead of STR (2 paladin, 12 fighter or 20 barbarian would not). Hence reducing the number of int-based builds will increase the number of cha and dex based.



Instead of [50% intbased, 50% strbased and <1% other] as would be the situation if u23 was unchanged, I hope we will now get [10% dex, 10% cha/con, 20% int and 60% str-based]. Because at least some builds that would deal max damage when going int will be discouraged by the AP cost.
Note: Numbers are used examplary of course but should show how this change could actually increase variety (dependent on your definition of variety).


For a TWF, to equal the damage of 60 INT with the two int enhancements, you would need to get 92 STR (or DEX, CHA, CON) without.
The cost of 12 AP may not even prove to be enough of a deterrent.

Ok, apparently I am missing something here, perhaps my brain is too wrapped up in college work right now and I am just missing the obvious? How is Int giving half int-bonus to damage if you are not buying the Int-Dam enhancement? And please, keep this in a perspective of keeping the game at least minimally competitive for people who just started the game, so if this approach requires having more pts to divvy between stats, or past-lives, or anything else that a starting player has.. then it is considered either perks for having put in the time (and well-earned) or exploits of some sort that should be taken care of by the developers in ways other than nerfing the ability of starting players in their ability to play and enjoy the game (and thus get hooked and KEEP playing)

Right now, I only see how (with 28 pts) a toon could get to 16 prime stat, 16 con, and 15 in a secondary (Int for sake of argument). If they pick the right race they could get 16, 18, 15 or 16, 14, 17... not much of a difference other than losing some HP or gaining a +1 Int Mod... and odds are, they will stay with pumping str throughout life, so their int mod is going to be (15+14 with items maybe? So, round and give them +10 mod from int, so +5 damage if they can do half-int mod to damage plus something else... not sure how you are proposing this, SCI gives Att, and SCII gives Dam, not half damage... so I'm not seeing it)

Unless you mean from SB enh/SWF? And even then, you have the same argument for EVERY stat. A PDK cha-based EK sorc could SWF/SB and get 1.5 Cha-Mod... so, what's the point on bashing int-bonus if this is the case?

IE- Show me EXAMPLES of how those extra 5 pts make THIS big of a difference, because I am NOT seeing any of what you are suggesting. And to make it blunt: SHOW ME, not hint around, or use concepts that make perfect sense to a person who is making the argument... pretend I am clueless (which so far, what you are saying is possible, is either disregarding that ALL other stats (except con) can be used for Att/Dam for less cost, or is using information that I am absolutely missing.) LEAD ME THROUGH what you are saying to prove that Int Att/Dam needs to cost so many pts. Because right now, I cannot fathom how anyone could defend having to spend 12 AP to get a single ability that would only cost a minimal investment for any other stat.

EDIT: Btw, the 100% damage on prime hand, and 50% damage for off-hand, applies to any stat being used... so why would it require 92 str to equal 60 int? All it says is that you can use Int for damage, not that you apply 100% int bonus to ALL damage... so how are they not equal here?

Rull
09-12-2014, 01:56 PM
Ok, apparently I am missing something here, perhaps my brain is too wrapped up in college work right now and I am just missing the obvious? How is Int giving half int-bonus to damage if you are not buying the Int-Dam enhancement? And please, keep this in a perspective of keeping the game at least minimally competitive for people who just started the game, so if this approach requires having more pts to divvy between stats, or past-lives, or anything else that a starting player has.. then it is considered either perks for having put in the time (and well-earned) or exploits of some sort that should be taken care of by the developers in ways other than nerfing the ability of starting players in their ability to play and enjoy the game (and thus get hooked and KEEP playing)

Right now, I only see how (with 28 pts) a toon could get to 16 prime stat, 16 con, and 15 in a secondary (Int for sake of argument). If they pick the right race they could get 16, 18, 15 or 16, 14, 17... not much of a difference other than losing some HP or gaining a +1 Int Mod... and odds are, they will stay with pumping str throughout life, so their int mod is going to be (15+14 with items maybe? So, round and give them +10 mod from int, so +5 damage if they can do half-int mod to damage plus something else... not sure how you are proposing this, SCI gives Att, and SCII gives Dam, not half damage... so I'm not seeing it)

Unless you mean from SB enh/SWF? And even then, you have the same argument for EVERY stat. A PDK cha-based EK sorc could SWF/SB and get 1.5 Cha-Mod... so, what's the point on bashing int-bonus if this is the case?

IE- Show me EXAMPLES of how those extra 5 pts make THIS big of a difference, because I am NOT seeing any of what you are suggesting. And to make it blunt: SHOW ME, not hint around, or use concepts that make perfect sense to a person who is making the argument... pretend I am clueless (which so far, what you are saying is possible, is either disregarding that ALL other stats (except con) can be used for Att/Dam for less cost, or is using information that I am absolutely missing.) LEAD ME THROUGH what you are saying to prove that Int Att/Dam needs to cost so many pts. Because right now, I cannot fathom how anyone could defend having to spend 12 AP to get a single ability that would only cost a minimal investment for any other stat.

EDIT: Btw, the 100% damage on prime hand, and 50% damage for off-hand, applies to any stat being used... so why would it require 92 str to equal 60 int? All it says is that you can use Int for damage, not that you apply 100% int bonus to ALL damage... so how are they not equal here?


Know the Angles: Antirequisite: Divine Might. You gain an Insight bonus to damage and the DC of tactical feats equal to ½ your Intelligence Modifier for 30/60/120 seconds. (Activation Cost: 21/18/15 spell points. Cooldown: 20 seconds)

Assume a 32 point build (28 point didn't pay for the game yet. screw them.)
I don't really care what. It doesn't even need to be a rogue that also benefits from int in other ways.

Currently on live, the choice would be:

str-based:
17 str +7 levelup + 2 tome + 10 item +3 insightful item +1 exceptional item + 2 airship +3 enhancements + 2 rage/ram's might + 4 epic destiny = 52 STR
15 dex (to meet TWF)
16 con
10 int
8 wis
8 cha
damage: main hand: 21, off hand: 10, combined 21 + 0.8*10 = 29 per sequence

dex-based:
11 str (to meet PA)
18 dex +7 levelup + 2 tome + 10 item +3 insightful item +1 exceptional item + 2 airship +3 enhancements = 46 DEX
16 con
11 int
8 wis
8 cha
damage: main hand: 18, off hand: 9, combined 18 + 0.8*9 = 25.2 per sequence. other benefits from dex like better reflex
marginal amount op AP wasted on dex-to-dmg/hit

As proposed on lamannia as of u23.0.4:

mix-based:
11 str (to meet PA)
17 dex +7 levelup + 2 tome + 10 item +3 insightful item +1 exceptional item + 2 airship +2 enhancements = 44 DEX
16 con
14 int +2 tome +8 item +2 airship +1 enhancement +1 other = 28 INT
8 wis
8 cha
damage: main hand: 17+4, off hand: 9+4, combined 21 + 0.8*13 = 31.4 per swing. other benefits from dex like better reflex
6 AP in harper

int-based:
11 str
15 dex
15 con
17 int +7 levelup + 2 tome + 10 item +3 insightful item +1 exceptional item + 2 airship +4 enhancements (4th being the one you use to qualify for harper tier3) = 44 INT
8 wis
8 cha
damage mod on main hand: 18+9=27, off hand: 9+9=18, combined 27 + 0.8*18 = 41.4 per sequence. good disable/search if you are rogue, good reflex saves with insightful reflexes.
13 AP in harper

That's a choice.
-I could see spending 6 AP to get a 6.2 dmg per sequence and other bonuses from those AP. In comparison; taking 3x tempest's whirling blades for 6 AP results in 5.4 dmg.
-I could maybe see staying DEX and not bothering with the INT if you really really need those AP elsewhere and can't fit a +8 int item or augment.
-But I could certainly also see spending 13 AP, hurting your other enhancement trees further but gaining a huge increase in damage.

On the other hand, if they kept the int-to-damage at tier2, like proposed in u23.0.2, the hybrid would of course not exist and noone would stay STR or DEX. Everyone with toons like this would want to go INT.

Erofen
09-12-2014, 01:59 PM
@Cordovan
I do think it is an error to call the previous use an 'exploit' or to call using it in any situation an 'exploit'.
Exploits in my opinion are things you should get banned for. Not the use of in-game mechanics to your advantage to overcome challenges, even if it is not the way a designer forsaw the challenge to be overcome.


We explained this yesterday, but the driver for this change is to prevent double-jumping from continuing to break quests and other content, and prevent exploits.
The second paragraph from Rull describes this well. Playing a quest a more efficient way is NOT exploiting. Just because some people want to run slower, does not make the people who use faster methods cheaters. And honestly still no clue of any quests where abundant chaining breaks more than just abundant.

Rull
09-12-2014, 02:11 PM
@Avalon, before you suggest "So know the angles is the problem, all we need to do is move that up in the tree and move int-to-damage down"...

Just 6 AP for know the angles without int-to-damage is interesting.
Just 6 AP for plain int-to-damage without KtA is a pretty boring ability, without restrictions of weapon or otherwise. But more importantly, once you are int-based, it is unthinkable you would not spent the additional 7 AP to also get KtA, so no one would use this 'option' of just taking int-to-damage.

The way it is done now, it creates the whole new possibility of a str or dex based character with some investment in int and a dip in Harper, as described above. I'm not even sure the devs fully realize it but it is ****ing genius design. (it could still be OP or UP, but at it's base it is beautiful)

-Avalon-
09-12-2014, 02:14 PM
As proposed on lamannia as of u23.0.4:

mix-based:
11 str (to meet PA)
17 dex +7 levelup + 2 tome + 10 item +3 insightful item +1 exceptional item + 2 airship +2 enhancements = 44 DEX
16 con
14 int +2 tome +8 item +2 airship +1 enhancement +1 other = 28 INT
8 wis
8 cha
damage: main hand: 17+4, off hand: 9+4, combined 21 + 0.8*13 = 31.4 per swing. other benefits from dex like better reflex
6 AP in harper

int-based:
11 str
15 dex
15 con
17 int +7 levelup + 2 tome + 10 item +3 insightful item +1 exceptional item + 2 airship +4 enhancements (4th being the one you use to qualify for harper tier3) = 44 INT
8 wis
8 cha
damage mod on main hand: 18+9=27, off hand: 9+9=18, combined 27 + 0.8*18 = 41.4 per sequence. good disable/search if you are rogue, good reflex saves with insightful reflexes.
13 AP in harper

That's a choice.
-I could see spending 6 AP to get a 6.2 dmg per sequence and other bonuses from those AP. In comparison; taking 3x tempest's whirling blades for 6 AP results in 5.4 dmg.
-I could maybe see staying DEX and not bothering with the INT if you really really need those AP elsewhere and can't fit a +8 int item or augment.
-But I could certainly also see spending 13 AP, hurting your other enhancement trees further but gaining a huge increase in damage.

On the other hand, if they kept the int-to-damage at tier2, like proposed in u23.0.2, the hybrid would of course not exist and noone would stay STR or DEX. Everyone with toons like this would want to go INT.

This is where I think we are being confused somehow:
If you have 40 str, and 40 dex, and 40 Cha... you are playing a PDK with all 3 of those. And you have the enhancements allowing Dex to Att/Dam, and Cha to Att/Dam... you are only using a single one of those, not all 3. The ability for Int to Att/Dam 'should' override all other stats if they are not as good as the Int-Score. If it isn't, that does not mean they need to bump it up to T3, that means they need to fix their code so that you only benefit from ONE stat at a time.

Next is the problem with your numbers... Please break down why the 0.8 is being multiplied by different amounts? It isn't that I cannot grasp math (I am a math major for [insert your deific choice here]'s sake!) but I do need to know why your constants seem to be more 'variable' lol...

"damage: main hand: 17+4, off hand: 9+4, combined 21 + 0.8*13 = 31.4 per swing. other benefits from dex like better reflex" (main stat 44 Dex: 17 Modifier)
"damage mod on main hand: 18+9=27, off hand: 9+9=18, combined 27 + 0.8*18 = 41.4 per sequence. good disable/search if you are rogue, good reflex saves with insightful reflexes." (44 Int: 17 Modifier)

Both of these SHOULD be exactly the same, if it isn't, then the dev's should not be punishing US, they should be spending more hours fixing a broken code, because with the same values for X and Y (x=y), then X+10=Y+10... just basic logic here. If your Int and your Dex are the exact same values, then they should affect your to-hit and damage numbers the exact same amount. Please explain your math, because it isn't adding up (please forgive my pun). And why is your Mix-Stat with a 44 Dex getting less damage than the one with 46 Dex? Like I said, those enhancements override (or they SHOULD be overriding, not stacking)

-Avalon-
09-12-2014, 02:36 PM
@Avalon, before you suggest "So know the angles is the problem, all we need to do is move that up in the tree and move int-to-damage down"...

Just 6 AP for know the angles without int-to-damage is interesting.
Just 6 AP for plain int-to-damage without KtA is a pretty boring ability, without restrictions of weapon or otherwise. But more importantly, once you are int-based, it is unthinkable you would not spent the additional 7 AP to also get KtA, so no one would use this 'option' of just taking int-to-damage.

The way it is done now, it creates the whole new possibility of a str or dex based character with some investment in int and a dip in Harper, as described above. I'm not even sure the devs fully realize it but it is ****ing genius design. (it could still be OP or UP, but at it's base it is beautiful)

Ok, I think I am seeing what you guys are now, but no, it does not make sense, is not genius, and actually makes me even more upset with this change. KtA is nice, but it is NOT something I would choose to get unless it happened to be on the way to something else. And since the 'something else' should be either free, better than free, on the way to things I want to get, etc (like I pointed out in the other post) this means they are making Int-Builds spend AP in excess of what they should by throwing in a door prize.

Would a rogue or ranger who can get Dex Att/Dam as it stands now (by buying on the way to enhancements that they REALLY WANT, so they actually don't really cost anything) or would they rather have an AP-Tax with a pretty bow around it? The point is, that the Int Att/Dam should be either class-feature (not likely, str will always be that), a minimal AP expenditure (like dex for some builds), a feat that appears as a Wizard Bonus feat (like Zen Archery for Monks), or something similar. None of these other stats have to spend any points really... so making Int Att/Dam cost 7 was *grumble grumble* doable, because it shouldn't cost 7, should cost 1 or 2 extra on the way to abilities we already want to get... but making it 12??? Now, that isn't a detour away from our chosen path, that's a major off-course correction.

And cannot say KtA is what makes it ok, because if KtA was in Harper tree at T1, and SCI and II were in EK... I probably would NEVER get KtA because my AP are way too stressed out getting what I need from PM, EK, AM, Race, Etc etc etc... A lot of times, I cannot even find a way to spend points in my Racial tree (and have heard dozens of other players say the exact same thing!)... so I know I am not the only one, and if that is a common thing, then yes, spending 12 pts to get what every other stat gets for peanuts is not justifiable. There are too many ways to get every stat (other than Con) for Att (and Dam for all but Wis and Con) for next to nothing... the biggest detour from main path for most, is the PDK Cha ability, and it's only a 3 pt detour... compare 3 AP expenditure for 12. That is a slap in the face.

Aelonwy
09-12-2014, 02:41 PM
Both of these SHOULD be exactly the same, if it isn't, then the dev's should not be punishing US, they should be spending more hours fixing a broken code, because with the same values for X and Y (x=y), then X+10=Y+10... just basic logic here. If your Int and your Dex are the exact same values, then they should affect your to-hit and damage numbers the exact same amount. Please explain your math, because it isn't adding up (please forgive my pun). And why is your Mix-Stat with a 44 Dex getting less damage than the one with 46 Dex? Like I said, those enhancements override (or they SHOULD be overriding, not stacking)

I could be mistaken but I think the answer is the single enhancement Know the Angles

Know the Angles: Antirequisite: Divine Might. You gain an Insight bonus to damage and the DC of tactical feats equal to ½ your Intelligence Modifier for 30/60/120 seconds. (Activation Cost: 21/18/15 spell points. Cooldown: 20 seconds)

There is no enhancement I know of that gives an insight bonus to damage = to half your Dex. Therefore being a straight Intelligence build has a damage advantage over a straight Dex build so long as it has this enhancement, and a Dex build with some effort spent to intelligence (thus a mixed build) with this enhancement, might also have an advantage over a straight dex build.

Kuttamia
09-12-2014, 02:43 PM
Will the paladine weapon of light be implemented as mentioned in the "paladine changes" thread?

Rull
09-12-2014, 02:54 PM
The int-to-damage one override the default str-to-damage.

The other relevant enhancement, Know The Angles, gives half your int bonus in addition.

So a rogue with 6 points in Harper can choose for instance either:
STR
DEX

a rogue with 6 points in Harper can choose fot instance either:
STR+½INT
DEX+½INT

a rogue with 13 points in Harper can get:
INT+½INT
which is almost always the most powerfull since you can focus your efforts (like lvlup points) better and therefore justifies the 13 points.

There is no real way to just get:
INT
(well, for artificers, for mechanics and for swashbucklers there is)

Also, 0.8*something means 80% offhand attack chance time the damage of that offhand attack.

LrdSlvrhnd
09-12-2014, 03:06 PM
This change is silly. Will it also 'reload' as fast? Or is it still 10 minutes? These shared cool downs are getting obnoxious. Such as the different flasks, all sharing the same cooldown even tho they have completely different functions.

MY worry is that using boots for whatever reason (Say, misclick - I've done that, or switching to your boots for the FF or jump boost and accidentally double-clicking) will also put wings/step on the 10-minute cooldown. And IMHO, hitting wings/step shouldn't put the boots on the full cooldown - it'd be quite annoying to use the version from EA running somewhere, put the boots on the ten-minute cooldown, switch EDs before stepping into a quest, and not have the boots available.

I can understand WHY they made this change - there have been a few cases where I've wondered "Hmm, I wonder if doing step-boots-step would get me across that gap..." - but it's still rather annoying.

tfc_generalKMK
09-12-2014, 03:21 PM
MY worry is that using boots for whatever reason (Say, misclick - I've done that, or switching to your boots for the FF or jump boost and accidentally double-clicking) will also put wings/step on the 10-minute cooldown. And IMHO, hitting wings/step shouldn't put the boots on the full cooldown - it'd be quite annoying to use the version from EA running somewhere, put the boots on the ten-minute cooldown, switch EDs before stepping into a quest, and not have the boots available.

I can understand WHY they made this change - there have been a few cases where I've wondered "Hmm, I wonder if doing step-boots-step would get me across that gap..." - but it's still rather annoying.

from my reading the boots seem to be a 10min cooldown while your wings (I don't even know what that is really) will have a 3 sec cooldown


i'd assume (not based on anything but my interpretation ) that if you use the wings first you'd have 3sec before you could use the boots to start its 10min cooldown

LrdSlvrhnd
09-12-2014, 03:24 PM
from my reading the boots seem to be a 10min cooldown while your wings (I don't even know what that is really) will have a 3 sec cooldown


i'd assume (not based on anything but my interpretation ) that if you use the wings first you'd have 3sec before you could use the boots to start its 10min cooldown

Yeah, I hadn't read the whole thread yet - sounds like use of anything will trigger a 3s cooldown on the rest.

Unfortunately, you answered before I could quietly edit my own post *g*

tfc_generalKMK
09-12-2014, 03:32 PM
Yeah, I hadn't read the whole thread yet - sounds like use of anything will trigger a 3s cooldown on the rest.

Unfortunately, you answered before I could quietly edit my own post *g*

this is the reason i read a thread in its entirety before posting

Scrabbler
09-12-2014, 04:19 PM
Therefore being a straight Intelligence build has a damage advantage over a straight Dex build so long as it has this enhancement
It seems pretty bad that Intelligence is 1.5x to damage while all other stats are 1x to damage (one-handed). It's too big of a change to go from Intelligence being almost useless for damage (except for very specific class trees) to being the best melee damage stat.

Fixing that is fairly important, and the straightforward fix is to simply prohibit Strategic Combat and Know The Angels at the same time. In fact, they could be put on multiselectors with each other so that it's impossible for one character to train both at once. Instead, you must choose whether to get Intelligence as your solo damage stat, or add half Intelligence on top of a regular damage stat.

(That's not a super-straightforward change, since currently Know Angels is t2 while Strategic Combat is t1 and t3, but there are many ways to make it work out, including creating a Lesser Know The Angels at lower tier which grants only 25% int mod to damage)

FranOhmsford
09-12-2014, 04:27 PM
We are not planning on changing how shields interact with these feats for this update. If we did this then we are essentially forcing Vanguard builds into using bludgeoning main hand weapons and essentially eliminating the sword and shield archetype.



I've been taking Imp Crit Bludgeoning AND Slashing on my Stalwarts for over a year now!

And suddenly I find out that Imp Crit doesn't work with Shields - Nice one Devs - Couldn't this be mentioned in the bleedin' Feat description?


Oh and yes - Vanguard is a FIGHTER Tree - Fighters get more than enough feats to fit in a second Imp. Crit {and no-one who doesn't need them as Pre-reqs takes Weapon Focus feats anyway!}.

-Avalon-
09-12-2014, 04:37 PM
The int-to-damage one override the default str-to-damage.

The other relevant enhancement, Know The Angles, gives half your int bonus in addition.

So a rogue with 6 points in Harper can choose for instance either:
STR
DEX

a rogue with 6 points in Harper can choose fot instance either:
STR+½INT
DEX+½INT

a rogue with 13 points in Harper can get:
INT+½INT
which is almost always the most powerfull since you can focus your efforts (like lvlup points) better and therefore justifies the 13 points.

There is no real way to just get:
INT
(well, for artificers, for mechanics and for swashbucklers there is)

Also, 0.8*something means 80% offhand attack chance time the damage of that offhand attack.

Ok, then indeed the problem IS KtA... It is artificially "fluffing" the costs. The enhancements for Int Att/Dam should cost no more than any other stat Att/Dam (exception of the base stat, Str, but I would argue that your base stat should be based on the stat of your choice at creation, no costs, just a choice, and cannot be constitution for basic balancing reasons)... To then say the reasons for increasing these costs is this 'extra ability' that was not asked for by anyone (not that I know of at least) is to artificially increase the cost because they wanted to. Thus arbitrarily increased only THIS one stat's cost, despite a ton of people watching Str Builds, Dex Builds, Cha Builds, even Wis Builds... and wondering, where is our Int Build? When are we going to get our Int Att/Dam ability that should have been introduced as soon as the new enhancement pass happened, and for similar costs.

The problem is, that this shouldn't cost as much, make SCI T1, SCII and KtA T2, or make KtA T3 even... but the basics should stay T1 and T2. If people want to spend the extra pts to get KtA, go for it. I have seen plenty of builds that would find a way to squeeze in 7 pts and just ignore KtA, and if THAT is the reason, then screw this... that makes no sense other than just deciding out and out to screw with int builds, why even put those abilities in there in the first place? Do the math. It takes 30 AP just to unlock a T5 ability, and once you get there, you won't just buy one, you spent that much, you are going to buy a couple of abilities, and that means around 35-40 pts in ONE tree. You're going to have another at around 21-25. So now down to 29 pts MAX. Most builds have a couple more trees with 11-13 pts each, that leaves 7 maximum to spend on Harper.

If we are saying that the players should stop spending the points in the trees where almost every single point is a boon to their build, just so they can spend 12 pts in Harper to get something that should not cost more than THREE AP for any other stat, all because 'we decided to throw in KtA, which is obviously worth upping the 3 to 12 instead..."?? Spending 12 pts in any other tree would grant me 1.5-2 times the power I could get from the Harper tree for that same price, on almost every Int Build I could think of, and if you have a choice between spending 1 AP for 2X power and spending it for 1X power, you choose the 2X. Guys, we only have 80 AP to spend, so spending 12 AP to get Int Att/Dam when every other stat can be gotten for maximum cost of 3 AP means you think KtA is worth 9 AP, and if we revert to the previous build, then Int Att/Dam is worth 4 more AP than any other stat (which I think people could accept given that it is tied to skills... but it would be a hard sell since Dex is tied to Reflex, and that is the single most important save in the entire game... to get Int to do it costs a feat, so now to be Int based, we have to spend MORE AP, and most likely spend a feat as well... I'm not sure that comes out all that easy to reason and rationalize)...

Str Based - Free
Dex Based - Core enhancements or Feat + Enhancements (either way, enhancements are in the tree that people will spend more pts anyway)
Cha Based - PDK, 3 AP
Wis Based - (only for Att) Bonus Feat in almost all situations
Int Based - 12 AP (and most likely a feat spent to equal out for Reflex Saves, so either a Semi-Feat tax, take fighter levels, or just not care about reflex saves, because mixed approach of Dex/Int is most likely a bad idea over all: less reflex on a toon that is obviously going to want high Reflex, and probably has Evasion?)

Sorry, I cannot see why Int gets to be the one that gets picked on and forced to spend extra points, KtA is not THAT awesome. It's nice, and if it was T2 in the EK tree on way to Perma-Tensers and the EK G.Cleave, along with the Extra ASF reduction, then yes, I could see it. But to put it in a tree that isn't going to be used for most of those builds other than to simply dip in and back out for the sole purpose of getting what they should already be getting, and then charging 12 AP on top of it? No.

Just as a quick example, that 12 AP in AM (arguably a very weak enh tree) would give SLA: Invis, Blur, Displacement, as well as more spell points and spell power (in excess of what the Harper tree gives)... this means for 6 spell pts, I can cast quickened/extended displacement (basically makes it perm), for 18 spell pts, I can blur the entire group for the entire quest, for 6 spell points I can set the group up for an invis run through Chronoscope or whatever other quest... These are infinitely useful abilities EACH, and I get all of them, PLUS 12 spell power and 114 spell points...

With Harper I get Int Att/Dam

And Choose:

+4 Spell power, +20 Spell Points, and KtA (unquantifiable due to costing 15 spell points for each 2 minutes, and no way to know how many minutes or how many fights, all quests are different, good ability, but not awesome), or +4 Spell Power and 120 Spell Points

or

+4 Spell Power, +120 Spell Points

The only extra that we're getting IS the Int Att/Dam, because we are trading (with a WEAK enh tree) 94 spell points and 8 spell power (plus a great deal of universal utility and spell point savers through SLAs) for KtA? Not much of a trade there, and even if it is perfectly even, that is with a weak enh. tree. If we forego KtA, we get 6 more Spell Pts and 8 less Spell Power plus Int Att/Dam... that kind of says that even the Dev's think it is an even trade... yet again, with a WEAK tree...

Solution: Find a way to offer Int Att/Dam for comparable costs as the other stats, and do whatever you want with KtA and the rest of the Harper tree. So far, it looks like they want to make a desirable tree, but to compete with pre-existing trees that give 2X power, you need a tree with 2X power. Unfortunately, to do so would focus the tree or make it too clumsy to use, so they are watering it down to be useful to everyone, but in effect, making it have 1X power, and I only see people dipping into it for very specific reasons (thus making it an extremely niche tree), and they want to make money off of it... so how can you make money off a tree that is only useful in very rare occasions?? You put SCI and SCII back where they were, and more people will buy it or stay subbed to keep it (plus other perks).

I think that is what people keep missing, this is a tree that is designed to earn money for them, therefore, it is SUPPOSED to be a little more powerful than the rest of the trees individually... and currently, it is really not that desirable, which is not something that should EVER be said or heard about a tree designed for this purpose (business wise)

-Avalon-
09-12-2014, 04:40 PM
I've been taking Imp Crit Bludgeoning AND Slashing on my Stalwarts for over a year now!

And suddenly I find out that Imp Crit doesn't work with Shields - Nice one Devs - Couldn't this be mentioned in the bleedin' Feat description?


Oh and yes - Vanguard is a FIGHTER Tree - Fighters get more than enough feats to fit in a second Imp. Crit {and no-one who doesn't need them as Pre-reqs takes Weapon Focus feats anyway!}.

Actually, simple solution: Improved Critical (Shields) as a new feat.

Problem solved? It would not push anyone to wield any specific weapon in their main hand while allowing people to get more power out of their shield.

PermaBanned
09-12-2014, 04:45 PM
We explained this yesterday, but the driver for this change is to prevent double-jumping from continuing to break quests and other content, and prevent exploits.

I think then that we have different definitions of what a "broken" quest is - for instance, I consider a quest "broken" when the Death Wyrm raid boss leaps off the platform down to the mirror puzzle, thus making it uncompleteable; or when those lovely Fire Dragons refuse to die, no matter how long their HP bars are at zero, thus making the quest uncompleteable; so hopefully you'll excuse my confusion on how it is that double jumping can "break" a quest.

Same for "exploits." Druid Wolf/throwers are disgustingly broken, duping & recycling run rampant, and safe spots turn EE quests in Auto attack & /afk ftw; but somehow double jumping once every ten minutes is an "exploit" worthy of attention?

I know the loss of double jumping is just a small thing in the grand scheeme, but there's so many other small things that could've & should've been done, that this just feels... punitive that this was made a priority on someone's to-do list.

Qhualor
09-12-2014, 04:59 PM
Actually, simple solution: Improved Critical (Shields) as a new feat.

Problem solved? It would not push anyone to wield any specific weapon in their main hand while allowing people to get more power out of their shield.

so as long as you have a shield equipped, any weapon you wield has IC? no thanks. doesn't make sense.

-Avalon-
09-12-2014, 05:07 PM
so as long as you have a shield equipped, any weapon you wield has IC? no thanks. doesn't make sense.

No, what that would mean is that any shield you equip gets IC, your weapon is on its own, if you want IC on it, you need to IC it as well. No different than if you have IC Slashing, and wield a Slasher in left hand and a Mace in the other... it doesn't give IC to the mace just because you are wielding a slashing weapon off hand... IC Shield would not give IC to your prime hand for any reason.

Scrabbler
09-12-2014, 05:25 PM
Actually, simple solution: Improved Critical (Shields) as a new feat.
That's not a solution, because it would mean a typical S&B Paladin would need two different Improved Crit feats in one build. That's excessive.

What they could try instead is adding Imp Crit Shields as an enhancement in Vanguard (maybe in place of Fatal Bulwark)

bbqzor
09-12-2014, 06:14 PM
Guys, "Int to Damage" isnt suddenly becoming some crazy problem. Its not going to replace str or dex.

- Str can easily get over 100. This is not new, it has been over 100 since like a billion years ago.
- Dex can now get very close to 100. Maybe, with the new trees, new items, given the right combination of stuff, it might even hit 100. Certainly 80-90+ as a static value is possible.
- Int can get to.... maybe 70? Maybe 75 if we are generous and you use temp pots?

In terms of a "maxed out" situation, theyre all very similar in damage bonus (100 is +45, 70 with KtA is +45, so yea). Only using Int costs a lot of AP in a non-class tree, taking away from whatever your build is likely supposed to be doing. And even when you do that, then you have to invest in Int, which is not nearly as accessible as either Str or Dex. Theres no Primal Scream for Int, theres no Barbarian Rage for Int, theres no Defender Stances for Int, theres no Shadow Dodge for Int, theres no Tensers Transformation for Int, etc etc etc. Believe me, ask those pure or 18/2 wizard builds how much they would like even one +4 Int buff....

Its a cool ability which might allow some EK build, or maybe an artificer, to gain a little. Its not going to suddenly covert rogues into int-based dps guys that wholly ditch dexterity. And its certainly not going to devalue Str outta the game.

If theres some combination or build or whatever where you see a huge problem, hey awesome post it up and lets get it fixed. But just trying to add up stat bonuses and show its 5-10 dps one way or the other... thats just business as usual with people doing char-op. Virtually all setups when people compare stuff result in situations like that. And with the dps totals people have in epics nowadays, Id hardly say values that minor are an issue. And it is epic thats relevent here, when youre counting +10 items and +7 levelup points and that kinda stuff.

Anyhow, too much theoretical math for me where specific enhancement paths, gear load outs, etc can be missed; but if you have any actual practical builds where youre seeing game balance issues, Id like to see em. Cheers.

-Avalon-
09-12-2014, 06:17 PM
That's not a solution, because it would mean a typical S&B Paladin would need two different Improved Crit feats in one build. That's excessive.

What they could try instead is adding Imp Crit Shields as an enhancement in Vanguard (maybe in place of Fatal Bulwark)

Ok... so, Having one feat is too little, having two feats is too much... so, your proposed compromise is 1 feat + Enhancements only found in a tree available only to 2 classes, which would effectively heavily limit any other people who want to benefit from S&B build to only 2 class-builds since the third would need to be Ftr or Pal AND spending enough pts to get a T3 ability instead of just getting an extra feat... /smh... remind me to never take you as a lawyer lol

How about this as a compromise:
Shield Mastery - (same as it has already) +1 Crit Threat Range
Imp. Shield Mastery - (same as it has already) +1 Crit Modifier

Not IC, per se, and only applies to feats pre-existing, stacks with Vanguard to give +2 Crit Threat Range and +1 Crit Mod... and non-pal/ftr builds could still get +1/+1 to be semi-effective... we'd see a lot more S&B builds... Just throwing ideas out there, or possible paths to wander down. Personally, I still prefer IC Shield, because TWF builds that want to use different weapon types need 2 IC feats, and S&B is really just a specialized form of TWF anyways...

thegreatfox
09-12-2014, 06:29 PM
~ Known issue, but might get pushed to patch.
~ Known issue we are working on.
~ Known issue we are working on.
~ Working as designed. You'll need to combine this with other enhancements or items to get it to stack.


You didn't say anything about how holy retribution still isn't recharging smite evils. It has me very worried.

-Avalon-
09-12-2014, 06:43 PM
Guys, "Int to Damage" isnt suddenly becoming some crazy problem. Its not going to replace str or dex.

- Str can easily get over 100. This is not new, it has been over 100 since like a billion years ago.
- Dex can now get very close to 100. Maybe, with the new trees, new items, given the right combination of stuff, it might even hit 100. Certainly 80-90+ as a static value is possible.
- Int can get to.... maybe 70? Maybe 75 if we are generous and you use temp pots?

In terms of a "maxed out" situation, theyre all very similar in damage bonus (100 is +45, 70 with KtA is +45, so yea). Only using Int costs a lot of AP in a non-class tree, taking away from whatever your build is likely supposed to be doing. And even when you do that, then you have to invest in Int, which is not nearly as accessible as either Str or Dex. Theres no Primal Scream for Int, theres no Barbarian Rage for Int, theres no Defender Stances for Int, theres no Shadow Dodge for Int, theres no Tensers Transformation for Int, etc etc etc. Believe me, ask those pure or 18/2 wizard builds how much they would like even one +4 Int buff....

Its a cool ability which might allow some EK build, or maybe an artificer, to gain a little. Its not going to suddenly covert rogues into int-based dps guys that wholly ditch dexterity. And its certainly not going to devalue Str outta the game.

If theres some combination or build or whatever where you see a huge problem, hey awesome post it up and lets get it fixed. But just trying to add up stat bonuses and show its 5-10 dps one way or the other... thats just business as usual with people doing char-op. Virtually all setups when people compare stuff result in situations like that. And with the dps totals people have in epics nowadays, Id hardly say values that minor are an issue. And it is epic thats relevent here, when youre counting +10 items and +7 levelup points and that kinda stuff.

Anyhow, too much theoretical math for me where specific enhancement paths, gear load outs, etc can be missed; but if you have any actual practical builds where youre seeing game balance issues, Id like to see em. Cheers.

PRAISE BE [insert deific choice here]!!! Someone gets it! The theoretical maximum for Intelligence is currently ~95 (with every single possible bonus in the game including heavy expenditures of plat, AP, and specific builds and specific races)... theoretical maximum strength is ~115 (THREE YEARS AGO, it's gotten higher since then)...

And the difference? (only listing stuff that the Str guy doesn't need to get, therefore setting it as different)
95 (+42 Mod, +63 with KtA) if you are Sun Elf or Drow, a Wiz/Rog/Arti or maybe Wiz/Arti/Mnk Lich with Improved Shroud, etc
Without those things, you get brought down to about 60-70... Pretty easy to get to 60, a bit hard to make 70...

To get to a comparable strength, all you need to do is sneeze really. So, no, allowing people to have Int Att/Dam is not going to ZOMGOP int-builds... it will allow them to be built in the first place. The further they push SCI and SCII up the tree, the further they remove it from the grasp of people who need it. Int Att/Dam is not for Pure Casters who sit back ranged so they can every once in a while run up and smack stuff using their int, because yeah, that's exactly what the 'ranged caster' wants to do... kind of like when the proposed having FotW be a "Run in, smack things a lot, run back out and shoot!" type tactic... that went over well, right?

Int Att/Dam is all for the Assassin Rogues and EK Wizards, and both of those builds are WAY too stressed with their AP trying to eek out a little more power because BOTH trees need serious loving to make them even remotely equal to other trees as it already stands.

B0ltdrag0n
09-12-2014, 06:47 PM
I've been taking Imp Crit Bludgeoning AND Slashing on my Stalwarts for over a year now!

And suddenly I find out that Imp Crit doesn't work with Shields - Nice one Devs - Couldn't this be mentioned in the bleedin' Feat description?
When you take the feat you may notice it gives you several subfeats with the name of weapons. If you don't see the weapon you are using among them it doesn't work with it. The issue of course being that one must actually read.

Scrabbler
09-12-2014, 07:35 PM
Enhancements only found in a tree available only to 2 classes, which would effectively heavily limit any other people who want to benefit from S&B build to only 2 class-builds since the third would need to be Ftr or Pal AND spending enough pts to get a T3 ability instead of just getting an extra feat...
Newsflash: Being a Fighter or Paladin and taking the Vanguard tree is the only way to be a shield-bashing melee build.

That is something I've complained about since Vanguard was first announced, but it's what the devs have decided to do. Only Vanguards will care if they can get Imp Crit Shield or not, and sticking it into the Vanguard tree makes it easier for them than if it was a feat. If you'd prefer, it'd be no big deal to make Imp Crit Shield available as both a feat and an enhancement (as happens with things like Deflect Arrows, sometimes). In practice nobody would train the feat version, but it doesn't hurt to throw it in.

-Avalon-
09-12-2014, 08:49 PM
Newsflash: Being a Fighter or Paladin and taking the Vanguard tree is the only way to be a shield-bashing melee build.

That is something I've complained about since Vanguard was first announced, but it's what the devs have decided to do. Only Vanguards will care if they can get Imp Crit Shield or not, and sticking it into the Vanguard tree makes it easier for them than if it was a feat. If you'd prefer, it'd be no big deal to make Imp Crit Shield available as both a feat and an enhancement (as happens with things like Deflect Arrows, sometimes). In practice nobody would train the feat version, but it doesn't hurt to throw it in.

I'll tell you why I don't like to stick it into the VG tree, and it is really simple, and caused by the way the Dev's have handled spellcasting all along. Instead of merging spellcasting somehow into a form where multiclassing is perfectly ok, they have kept it as a 'go pure or go home' system... the most that any caster will try and MC is 2 or 3 lvls, anymore begins to eat away at their viability in later content WAY too much. Melees don't have this issue, they are based on a BAB system where everything adds up, Doesn't matter what classes you throw together, they all have a BAB total, and that's pretty much A-Ok... at late levels, things are reasonably easy to hit even with a BAB of 10, so, yet again, does not matter what combination of classes, there are enough bonuses to make up for losing BAB to the point that you are on the Wizard chart lol...

Casting Level is so tied to staying, not just in the same TYPE of spell, but same CLASS... Wizards and Bards cast arcane spells, but 10 Wiz/10 Brd only equals 10 Caster Level. And there isn't any equipment out there to really do anything about that. This means that casters NEED to stay pure, pretty much point blank. EK's can wear heavy armor and use shields, Battle Clerics can do the same, Even FVS sometimes use shields... a lot of people who want to be smacking the bad guys with weapons, want to keep high Caster Levels, and using shields...

It's ALWAYS a good idea to allow for flexibility in D&D 3.x Edition (which is what DDO is loosely based on)... so, having it as an available feat allows everyone that uses shields to be able to do these things AND still be pure, although, at a cost! They can either sub out 3 levels and lose some casting power, or sacrifice one of their prized feats... but I'd rather the player have that decision than force them down a road...

blerkington
09-12-2014, 09:14 PM
...why do people want Melee Power with the Shiradi tree? It's not a melee tree by ANY MEANS WHAT SO EVER...or am I completely missing something here.

Hi,

The reason I would like melee power to be added to shiradi is so that it doesn't become an even worse option for hybrid ranged melee/builds.

It would mean that if you ran such a build, you will not fall even further behind the other destinies for melee DPS. Everyone else moving forward while you stand still amounts to a proxy nerf. Relatively, you are less powerful than you were before, and this is what I'm trying to avoid.

I don't find the 'not a melee tree' argument persuasive. Are LD and FOTW ranged trees? If not, then why do they add so much power to ranged builds? There are other destinies receiving a melee power buff which also add power to ranged and casting power, and have other useful abilities too.


They explicitly mentioned Shiradi being left out until Ranged Power pass, and that they couldn't fit Ranged Power in with the current update.
I'm not sure what you're expecting, perhaps you could clarify that instead.

See my response to the other poster. What I was asking for (rather than expecting) was that shiradi, which already offers little in the form of melee DPS increases for hybrids, doesn't become an even less competitive choice.

Thanks.

Silkenwise
09-12-2014, 09:20 PM
The cooldown on the Cannith Propulsion Boots is to prevent quests from breaking, and to prevent people from doing a "double jump" using other methods like Abundant Step. No character should ever be able to use two "jump"-style effects one after the other, as it breaks content and causes significant exploits.

Then design your content better!

Honestly, this is supposed to be a Dungeons and Dragons game, and a good old fashioned grappling hook and 100' of silk rope would shortcut most of the poor level design around this game.

Don't nerf items because players came up with a creative use for them, that's a ****ish DM's move.

-Avalon-
09-12-2014, 11:58 PM
Then design your content better!

Honestly, this is supposed to be a Dungeons and Dragons game, and a good old fashioned grappling hook and 100' of silk rope would shortcut most of the poor level design around this game.

Don't nerf items because players came up with a creative use for them, that's a ****ish DM's move.

Agreed, it is sort of really sad that this game was/is fun for all sorts of reasons that no other MMO has, like extreme customization of our characters and quests that allow true terrain advantage/disadvantage to be used. Instead of where most games went the route of making it so that if you are in a position where you can hit the enemy and the enemy cannot hit you, they make it so that you end up not being able to do any damage or the enemy is just impossible to target, or etc... in DDO, if you climb on a ledge and shoot someone from above, it is called sound tactics and strategy lol... But now, when you have worked hard enough that in normal PnP you'd have wings or boots of flying or something, instead in DDO, you just have Cannith Boots and maybe a propulsion ability, and it gets nerfed lol...

Why not just figure out why it 'breaks' the quests in question, and fix those issues? Or chalk it up to people having earned power and thus should be allowed to utilize that power. If your powers are negated after getting them, are you really ever any more powerful? Why not make some quests that actually reward a person having the boots AND the step ability (perhaps an extra chest or something for being able to reach a specific alcove and pull a lever, doesn't shorten the quest, but rewards the player for having earned those abilities)

Rull
09-13-2014, 02:33 AM
Hi,

The reason I would like melee power to be added to shiradi is so that it doesn't become an even worse option for hybrid ranged melee/builds.

It would mean that if you ran such a build, you will not fall even further behind the other destinies for melee DPS. Everyone else moving forward while you stand still amounts to a proxy nerf. Relatively, you are less powerful than you were before, and this is what I'm trying to avoid.

I don't find the 'not a melee tree' argument persuasive. Are LD and FOTW ranged trees? If not, then why do they add so much power to ranged builds? There are other destinies receiving a melee power buff which also add power to ranged and casting power, and have other useful abilities too.



See my response to the other poster. What I was asking for (rather than expecting) was that shiradi, which already offers little in the form of melee DPS increases for hybrids, doesn't become an even less competitive choice.

Thanks.

Exactly!

When destinies were originally released, they were a new layer of multiclassing.
By design you could take 20 melee class levels and then 5 caster destiny levels because they worked on character levels.
There was deliberatly put in redundancy so that other classes get something from a destiny that the native class doesn't get (because they have it already), to compensate fot the synergy that is also put in. To not pigeonhole a class in it's 'accompanying' destiny.
Although this project never came to life much except for the occasional twist of Energy Burst on a melee, the idea was good.
Now with the break in MP/RP, not only is the destiny system less interesting, it is also the killing blow to hybrid builds (melee/arcane, melee/ranged and ranged/arcane)

Yalinaa
09-13-2014, 03:02 AM
I think then that we have different definitions of what a "broken" quest is - for instance, I consider a quest "broken" when the Death Wyrm raid boss leaps off the platform down to the mirror puzzle, thus making it uncompleteable; or when those lovely Fire Dragons refuse to die, no matter how long their HP bars are at zero, thus making the quest uncompleteable; so hopefully you'll excuse my confusion on how it is that double jumping can "break" a quest.

Same for "exploits." Druid Wolf/throwers are disgustingly broken, duping & recycling run rampant, and safe spots turn EE quests in Auto attack & /afk ftw; but somehow double jumping once every ten minutes is an "exploit" worthy of attention?

I know the loss of double jumping is just a small thing in the grand scheeme, but there's so many other small things that could've & should've been done, that this just feels... punitive that this was made a priority on someone's to-do list.

I see guilds abusing poor Necro to get more and more guild level, and zero punishment. So many exploits, and they don't care at all. So, how the hell Cannith boots made the priority on the list is a mystery. I'm still on the opinion that it's for one reason - the new raid. Crazy thing, you can do double jump WITHOUT the boots, nerfing boots just show how incompetency is growing in this game day by day.

Bernaise
09-13-2014, 03:55 AM
I still maintain that the biggest design flaw in the Harper's Agent enhancement tree is that it should NOT have Tier-5 skills. It's a flavor tree and Tier-5 skills should be reserved as the advantage of your class. Harper Agent and future vanilla Enhancement lines should be more like the Racial trees with Four Tiers and solid Core choices. Nobody in their right mind would invest in a 5th Tier vanilla tree as not only does it lock out 5th Tier on your actual class lines, there's not enough AP remaining to spend on your primary class Capstone. This IMO is a really boneheaded move by the Design Team, and definitely a huge step away from D&D.

Rull
09-13-2014, 05:31 AM
I still maintain that the biggest design flaw in the Harper's Agent enhancement tree is that it should NOT have Tier-5 skills. It's a flavor tree and Tier-5 skills should be reserved as the advantage of your class. Harper Agent and future vanilla Enhancement lines should be more like the Racial trees with Four Tiers and solid Core choices. Nobody in their right mind would invest in a 5th Tier vanilla tree as not only does it lock out 5th Tier on your actual class lines, there's not enough AP remaining to spend on your primary class Capstone. This IMO is a really boneheaded move by the Design Team, and definitely a huge step away from D&D.

I have been thinking a lot about this, but in the end I do not agree.
You can have a build with 12 fighter levels and I would still consider it a swashbuckler, not a 'fighter'. Likewise, I could see build that are primarily Harper, and just happen to have some mix of classes which are of lesser importance to that characters identity.
It's all about how you would primarily finish 'I am a ...'. Some people regard themselves as farmer, some as computer programmer, but some as communist. Or as jew.

I can see a faction being more of a dominant characteristic of an adventurer than his classes.

I would love to go even further and see this reflected in character icon also. Seeing a fighter icon does not inform me enough about his role. He could be a tank, melee dps, he could even be an arcane archer. I would suggest a system where your tier5 determines your icon instead. (except that, at earlier levels this wouldn't work and you can even not tier5 at all).

It is a step away from old d&d but a step that pen and paper should have taken itself. I think it is even more in the spirit of d&d than many editions of pen and paper.

flaggson
09-13-2014, 05:59 AM
Well on the bright side you have removed any burning need I had to Buy the Harper tree... so ... thank you for saving me money :D !

Free2Pay
09-13-2014, 06:38 AM
Over the past few days I've used the +20 LR multiple times and I really don't see any boost to my survivability despite having 100-120 PRR and 70-80 MRR (btw I have level 5 US and LD). I've exhausted every build possibility I can come up with but retaining my existing gears as I'm trying to salvage my existing melee toon. I had originally set my goals to heroic quests but realize that this armor up simply doesn't cut it in Thunderholme explorer for my existing melee character. Seeing this is already the fourth iteration, I guess it's already too late. Anyone feels the same as me?

My clonk in robe (with lvl 5 GMoF) has better surviviability and dps (has no problem exploring Thunderholme) and that seem to be the only way I can see myself farming dwarven ingots once this goes live.

Leclaire1
09-13-2014, 09:41 AM
So, any word yet on if heroic flagging is going to be made the same as epic flagging? I refuse to believe that with such an otherwise ambitious update the devs could leave this update marred by such a small, but utterly frustrating issue. I keep waiting to hear some word on the subject and nothing but radio silence with each new look. While all the major systems changes definitely improve ddo, it is sometimes the little things like improving this outdated flagging system that make the most quality of life difference for those of us who have jobs and families, and who therefore don't want to waste our precious play time farming for randomly dropping sigils with every TR or new toon. Even if it makes it in a later patch I'll be content, but at this point even a break in the radio silence would be refreshing.

Glad
09-13-2014, 09:58 AM
First version of Harper tree was great, now i will just ignore it and save my TPs. Not sure how you guys can go from all ppl in game will buy it to no one cares.

Psiandron
09-13-2014, 11:36 AM
When I first saw the mods to the Harper tree this last build of Lamannia I was like /shrug. But the more that I think about it the more that I realize that it is kind of pointless and somewhat mean spirited to move int to damage higher up in the tree. This is not low hanging fruit guys. This is not an enhancement that is in anyway useful to most builds. It's not like fighters, paladins, rangers and barbs are going to be lining up to take int to damage. Well, maybe barbs. ;P It's going to be pretty much an assassin and EK wizzy thing. And while it's certainly possible to level around it, there just isn't any need to punish people playing such a build.



I still maintain that the biggest design flaw in the Harper's Agent enhancement tree is that it should NOT have Tier-5 skills. It's a flavor tree and Tier-5 skills should be reserved as the advantage of your class. Harper Agent and future vanilla Enhancement lines should be more like the Racial trees with Four Tiers and solid Core choices. Nobody in their right mind would invest in a 5th Tier vanilla tree as not only does it lock out 5th Tier on your actual class lines, there's not enough AP remaining to spend on your primary class Capstone. This IMO is a really boneheaded move by the Design Team, and definitely a huge step away from D&D.

I find myself generally agreeing with this... although I might have worded it less saucily.

Given the pan-class nature of the Harper tree, making it more in the format of a racial tree would seem to make more sense to me. Ofc, I suppose that it's not like I'm in any danger of taking the capstone as it stands now anyway.

-Avalon-
09-13-2014, 12:46 PM
I agree with most sentiments about the new Harper tree, but would like to add my own contribution to the overall perspective...

When making something that is available to all classes and all races, the dev's want it to be applicable to all things and 75% or more of the builds I would think. The problem is that a tree found in the Monk class is specific to the monk, a tree in the wizard class is specific to wizards (and somewhat Sorcerers)... which makes those trees really powerful for those classes, and maybe 'not so much' for other classes.

They are designed so that they 'can' be used with other classes to create synergy, while retaining the vast majority of power for the originating class. Harper does not have an originating class, and is designed to try and create synergy with all other classes. What this means is that while Palemaster gives wizards 2X power for getting the abilities, and Kensei gives 2X power to fighters... Harpers end up giving 1X power for picking their abilities due to extreme watering down.

The old saying comes to mind: You can't please everyone.

If you try and make a tree that pleases all classes, you will end up pleasing NO classes. Harper needs to pack enough punch in the first 2 tiers to make people desire it, but that makes the last 2-3 tiers fairly pointless or seem mean to those who get stuck there for lack of room in first 2 tiers. Instead, how about making it more focused... create 4 trees: (name however you want)

Harper (Arcane) - Wizards, Sorcerers, Caster Bards
Harper (Martial) - Fighters, Barbarians, Melee-Focused Paladins
Harper (Divine) - Clerics, Favored Souls, Druids (worshipers of nature)
Harper (Scout) - Rogues, Bards

Or however... point is, instead of trying to please everyone with one tree of 5 tiers, make 4 trees with only 2 or 3 tiers that please a smaller sampling of the people (mini-enhancement trees)... still, VIP gets free, or can buy in the store.

Free2Pay
09-13-2014, 01:46 PM
I simply have no clue how to achieve the zero damage taken as claimed by some players. My melee toon died so many times in Thunderholme explorer that it's not even funny anymore. I give up.

Aletys
09-13-2014, 04:00 PM
A couple of release notes ago had the following:


The game launcher is now able to perform the initial download of the DDO .dat files without the use of Akamai NetSession technology. ....users may click "Decline" on the Akamai EULA. There is also an option to disable installation and usage of NetSession technology in the settings panel.

I had completely uninstalled the Lamannia client because of Akamai (I uninstalled Akamai from my system & use an alternate launcher to run the game), and with Akamai apparently no longer required, decided to reinstall it to check out the upcoming U23 content. However, I see no way to avoid installing Akamai, nothing in the settings panel to disable it, no way to decline (just the same "quit" or "agree" buttons).

I also don't see this item in the latest release notes. Has this been scrapped? If so, I'm very unhappy, as I'm sure will others, & will continue to use the alternate launcher.

Or, is there something I've missed that will allow me to install the Lamannia client without Akamai?

Psiandron
09-13-2014, 05:04 PM
A couple of release notes ago had the following:



I had completely uninstalled the Lamannia client because of Akamai (I uninstalled Akamai from my system & use an alternate launcher to run the game), and with Akamai apparently no longer required, decided to reinstall it to check out the upcoming U23 content. However, I see no way to avoid installing Akamai, nothing in the settings panel to disable it, no way to decline (just the same "quit" or "agree" buttons).

I also don't see this item in the latest release notes. Has this been scrapped? If so, I'm very unhappy, as I'm sure will others, & will continue to use the alternate launcher.

Or, is there something I've missed that will allow me to install the Lamannia client without Akamai?

I don't think that you can install w/o Akamai, but you can do what i did which was install the client and then uninstall Akamai.

Aletys
09-13-2014, 05:08 PM
I don't think that you can install w/o Akamai, but you can do what i did which was install the client and then uninstall Akamai.

Thank you, I will try that.

Seikojin
09-13-2014, 09:56 PM
I simply have no clue how to achieve the zero damage taken as claimed by some players. My melee toon died so many times in Thunderholme explorer that it's not even funny anymore. I give up.

It was with high dr items. Basically a high prr reduced damage to the point where dr would negate it. I think they fixed it so dr is taken out first.


A couple of release notes ago had the following:



I had completely uninstalled the Lamannia client because of Akamai (I uninstalled Akamai from my system & use an alternate launcher to run the game), and with Akamai apparently no longer required, decided to reinstall it to check out the upcoming U23 content. However, I see no way to avoid installing Akamai, nothing in the settings panel to disable it, no way to decline (just the same "quit" or "agree" buttons).

I also don't see this item in the latest release notes. Has this been scrapped? If so, I'm very unhappy, as I'm sure will others, & will continue to use the alternate launcher.

Or, is there something I've missed that will allow me to install the Lamannia client without Akamai?

Yeah I bugged that a few times since they said you could. You can disable or uninstall it with a variety of methods.

Seikojin
09-13-2014, 10:00 PM
The int to tier 3 was commented during the twitch stream to match other stat to damage enhancements.

-Avalon-
09-14-2014, 12:07 AM
The int to tier 3 was commented during the twitch stream to match other stat to damage enhancements.

So, then what you are saying is that the Developers are unaware of the game they work on?

- Assassin Core 2 : Dagger in the Back (Dex to Damage)
- Deepwood Stalker Tier 2 : Improved Weapon Finesse (Dex to Damage)
- PDK Tier 1 : Cormyrean Knight Training (Cha to Damage)

And not even counting various other ways to get other stats for Att/Dam...

The point is, that Int to Att/Dam should not be that far up in a tree that isn't even IN the classes it should belong to. When a Rogue can go up a Rogue tree that they already planned on taking to tier 4 or 5 and get Dex to Att/Dam, or a Ranger can go up to Tier 4 or 5 and snag the ability on the way, it costs these people 1 or 2 extra pts. For Sorcs/Fvs/Pal/Brd that want to go PURE charisma, they go PDK and get it for 3 pts. But the cost for any Int, is to pay 4 - 6 TIMES what those people are paying.

If the Int Att/Dam were Tier 1 and 3 (respectively) in EK tree, then awesome, people are heading through there to get to tier 4 or 5 anyways, they pay a pt or two extra and grab it... but to force them to not only go to a separate tree outside their class (that they don't want anything from) and then have them pay 12 pts?? I don't understand how anyone doesn't get that this is absolutely wrong and a complete slap to the face for anyone playing EK-type builds, or the assassin rogues out there being told that they can either have really good Assassinate DC's, or they can do DPS... but not both, because they can either focus on Int and get a good DC, or Dex/Str and get good damage... with this, they may actually become a non-broken build... but at the cost of 12 pts?? No one else has to pay that much, and Int's shouldn't either.

But don't try and tell me that everyone else has it just as bad, because they don't, so don't try and insult my intelligence.

Therigar
09-14-2014, 12:17 AM
This post just made to much sense ^^

I did a 12 sorc 6 ranger 2 pally TWF with a ranged option and played a lot in Shiradi and it could use some melee powah :)

In sake of balance why not give TWF +2% doublestrike for each feat 6% in total for all three...

I was not aware that anyone credible ran in Shiradi unless a) they needed to cap that destiny or b) they were an offense oriented caster. Even respectable ranged characters seldom run in Shiradi from what I can tell. The idea that Shiradi needs or deserves a melee boost is, IMO, pretty ludicrous unless our goal is to encourage blue bars to dominate the game even more than they do now.

A melee boost to Shiradi does NOTHING for the fighter/paladin/barbarian --> the classes most overlooked and most in need of the update.

If the goal is to continue the imbalance among classes then by all means add increased melee power to Shiradi. If the goal is to reduce the imbalance among classes then leave Shiradi as it is -- it is exploited badly enough by arcanes that ignore their own EDs as it is.

Therigar
09-14-2014, 12:33 AM
I could be mistaken but I think the answer is the single enhancement Know the Angles

Know the Angles: Antirequisite: Divine Might. You gain an Insight bonus to damage and the DC of tactical feats equal to ½ your Intelligence Modifier for 30/60/120 seconds. (Activation Cost: 21/18/15 spell points. Cooldown: 20 seconds)

Probably answered somewhere else but....

Does this stack with the 100% stat bonus out of the Swashbuckler tree?

Does the easily achieved 42 INT for +16 become +16+16+8 (=+40) for those 3 minutes?

Therigar
09-14-2014, 12:44 AM
It seems pretty bad that Intelligence is 1.5x to damage while all other stats are 1x to damage (one-handed). It's too big of a change to go from Intelligence being almost useless for damage (except for very specific class trees) to being the best melee damage stat.

Fixing that is fairly important, and the straightforward fix is to simply prohibit Strategic Combat and Know The Angels at the same time. In fact, they could be put on multiselectors with each other so that it's impossible for one character to train both at once. Instead, you must choose whether to get Intelligence as your solo damage stat, or add half Intelligence on top of a regular damage stat.

(That's not a super-straightforward change, since currently Know Angels is t2 while Strategic Combat is t1 and t3, but there are many ways to make it work out, including creating a Lesser Know The Angels at lower tier which grants only 25% int mod to damage)

There are other ways for other character types to get INT to damage -- including some weapons with that built in. The ability to build with max focus on INT already exists.

The Swashbuckler tree presently gives 100% boost to the damage stat.

150% INT probably is NOT the best damage option in spite of what has been said. STR remains the easiest to buff to the highest levels and STR + half INT is likely to be the biggest damage increase.

IMO this is a lot of "sky is falling" since DPS characters are probably focused on EDs where they are buffing melee power so theoretical INT numbers probably are not very realistic for the majority of builds. Where INT is already a top stat those characters are not much threat as top DPS builds so the boost isn't likely to do much more than allow those characters to contribute more effectively.

Scrabbler
09-14-2014, 01:10 AM
Probably answered somewhere else but....
Does this stack with the 100% stat bonus out of the Swashbuckler tree?
Yes, Swashbuckler Different Tact does stack with Know The Angels.


Does the easily achieved 42 INT for +16 become +16+16+8 (=+40) for those 3 minutes?
No, you can't stack Different Tact with Strategic Combat 2. (You also can't add Insightful Damage or Targeting Sights to it)

Scrabbler
09-14-2014, 01:15 AM
A melee boost to Shiradi does NOTHING for the fighter/paladin/barbarian --> the classes most overlooked and most in need of the update.
A melee boost to Shiradi makes it easier for melee builds to cap Shiradi so they're done with it and can switch to something else.


If the goal is to continue the imbalance among classes then by all means add increased melee power to Shiradi. If the goal is to reduce the imbalance among classes then leave Shiradi as it is -- it is exploited badly enough by arcanes that ignore their own EDs as it is.
Adding Meleepower to Shiradi will be unnoticed by arcane builds, who spend all their time throwing purple sparks instead of ever swinging in melee.


As far as arcanes exploiting the Shiradi destiny: the right way to fix that is to simply remove those two bugs that cause Shiradi to be 5+ times as strong for casters as it should be. That would be an easy job (except for the part about getting Shiradi players to accept it, which would be amazingly hard)



STR remains the easiest to buff to the highest levels and STR + half INT is likely to be the biggest damage increase.
Str + Int/2 won't work for Paladins (who use Divine Might instead)... and for the near future, Paladins are very dominant in melee damage over Fighters and Barbarians. If they someday buff Fighters and Barbs, then using Harper to add Int/2 damage might be pretty attractive... which is funny to think about Barbarian builds starting to sacrifice Constitution for more Intelligence.


150% INT probably is NOT the best damage option in spite of what has been said. STR remains the easiest to buff to the highest levels and STR + half INT is likely to be the biggest damage increase.
What may save Strength from being overtaken by Intelligence damage isn't how high you can buff the stat (it can get higher, but people exaggerate the ease of 100+ str) but that Strength also gives DC for some handy melee tricks.

(Funny though, that Vanguard allows you to inflict stun and trip with an Intelligence DC)

blerkington
09-14-2014, 04:37 AM
I was not aware that anyone credible ran in Shiradi unless a) they needed to cap that destiny or b) they were an offense oriented caster. Even respectable ranged characters seldom run in Shiradi from what I can tell. The idea that Shiradi needs or deserves a melee boost is, IMO, pretty ludicrous unless our goal is to encourage blue bars to dominate the game even more than they do now.

A melee boost to Shiradi does NOTHING for the fighter/paladin/barbarian --> the classes most overlooked and most in need of the update.

If the goal is to continue the imbalance among classes then by all means add increased melee power to Shiradi. If the goal is to reduce the imbalance among classes then leave Shiradi as it is -- it is exploited badly enough by arcanes that ignore their own EDs as it is.

Hi,

This just seems like more needless commentary from someone who has already demonstrated in the past that he doesn't understand ranged combat and builds particularly well.

Although if I remember correctly, in some of those discussions you then went back and deleted pretty much all of the most ignorant stuff you wrote on that topic after taking some heavy criticism from a lot of people, including myself and also some of the game's best ranged players.

For a ranged build, Shiradi does a few things quite well. It proves good crowd control, including helplessness. That gives a boost to character and party DPS, and a reduction to party healing required due to mobs not hitting back. The double rainbow procs add a decent amount of DPS on very high ROF ranged builds. It also has some good survivability boosts. Where it is most lacking, especially for bow users, is in DPS againts red and purple named enemies.

In the past, as well as showing a lack of understanding of ranged combat, you've also shown a pronounced bias towards DPS as being the only measure of a build's usefulness, which is simply wrong. I'm aware that there are lots of players with the 'DPS is king' outlook, and I can see where they're coming from. What I prefer not to see is them disparaging other approaches to playing the game.

My suggestion that shiradi be included in the melee power boost has nothing to do with improving underperforming classes. If you stopped to think for a moment, you would realise that class =/= ED.

People from the classes you've mentioned can run in those EDS, and if shiradi did offer a melee power boost it would offer more to hybrid builds, which is my primary concern. The purpose of the suggestion was for the melee power to be added as a 'keeping pace' measure, in other words, to ensure that hybrids running in shiradi who sometimes melee don't fall any further behind than they already are.

Your assertion that adding a small amount of melee power to shiradi would increase blue bar domination of the game is frankly ridiculous. Do you really think that shiradi casters, which have very specific build requirements in terms of their feat and AP selection to be optimal, are suddenly going to start meleeing instead of casting?

A small amount of additional melee power associated with that ED is not going to encourage builds, with no useful investment in feats, APs and ability scores to support melee, to give up effective, high efficiency casting to somehow become more powerful.

If have a difficulty with how shiradi works as an offensive caster discipline, I'd remind you that has really nothing to do with how it works for ranged and hyrbid melee/ranged builds. The two issues are entirely separate, and only one of them has a place in a discussion of where and how much melee power should be added to ED core abilities.

Thanks.

Free2Pay
09-14-2014, 06:00 AM
Having tried many variations of melee heavy armor toons through the free +20 LR, I conclude the Armor Up is inadequte for heavy armor in Thunderholme and beyond. With healing spring, cocoon, holy sword, exalted smites, avenging cleaves etc, ALL my builds in HEAVY armor stand NO CHANCE in Thunderholme.

gwonbush
09-14-2014, 08:52 AM
Having tried many variations of melee heavy armor toons through the free +20 LR, I conclude the Armor Up is inadequte for heavy armor in Thunderholme and beyond. With healing spring, cocoon, holy sword, exalted smites, avenging cleaves etc, ALL my builds in HEAVY armor stand NO CHANCE in Thunderholme.

If you are talking about the explorer area, then I think your problem is between the keyboard and the computer. As for the raids, you aren't meant to go after them alone. In fact, each raid has mechanics that make it significantly more difficult to solo.

Cordovan
09-14-2014, 10:02 AM
A couple of release notes ago had the following:



I had completely uninstalled the Lamannia client because of Akamai (I uninstalled Akamai from my system & use an alternate launcher to run the game), and with Akamai apparently no longer required, decided to reinstall it to check out the upcoming U23 content. However, I see no way to avoid installing Akamai, nothing in the settings panel to disable it, no way to decline (just the same "quit" or "agree" buttons).

I also don't see this item in the latest release notes. Has this been scrapped? If so, I'm very unhappy, as I'm sure will others, & will continue to use the alternate launcher.

Or, is there something I've missed that will allow me to install the Lamannia client without Akamai?

This was referencing an erroneous note in the initial Release Notes posted on Lamannia. This was a change that wasn't actually being implemented for DDO at this time, but accidentally made it into the DDO notes. The process of optionally choosing to uninstall Akamai after the initial download is still available.

Therigar
09-14-2014, 12:33 PM
This just seems like more needless commentary from someone who has already demonstrated in the past that he doesn't understand ranged combat and builds particularly well.

Although if I remember correctly, in some of those discussions you then went back and deleted pretty much all of the most ignorant stuff you wrote on that topic after taking some heavy criticism from a lot of people, including myself and also some of the game's best ranged players.

A fair criticism.


For a ranged build, Shiradi does a few things quite well. It proves good crowd control, including helplessness. That gives a boost to character and party DPS, and a reduction to party healing required due to mobs not hitting back. The double rainbow procs add a decent amount of DPS on very high ROF ranged builds. It also has some good survivability boosts. Where it is most lacking, especially for bow users, is in DPS againts red and purple named enemies.

Supporting my observation that I don't see ranged characters running in Shiradi since the focus of the game (at least in the context of forum postings) is all about end game -- that is, final fights in highest possible content against red a purple named enemies.


In the past, as well as showing a lack of understanding of ranged combat, you've also shown a pronounced bias towards DPS as being the only measure of a build's usefulness, which is simply wrong. I'm aware that there are lots of players with the 'DPS is king' outlook, and I can see where they're coming from. What I prefer not to see is them disparaging other approaches to playing the game.

Actually, in this case I think you've missed something. If you are advocating for other approaches than melee then why are we discussing adding melee to an ED that is used mostly by casters and somewhat by ranged? While your critiques of my points-of-view have merit I think in this case you have found fault just for the sake of doing so.


My suggestion that shiradi be included in the melee power boost has nothing to do with improving underperforming classes. If you stopped to think for a moment, you would realise that class =/= ED.

People from the classes you've mentioned can run in those EDS, and if shiradi did offer a melee power boost it would offer more to hybrid builds, which is my primary concern. The purpose of the suggestion was for the melee power to be added as a 'keeping pace' measure, in other words, to ensure that hybrids running in shiradi who sometimes melee don't fall any further behind than they already are.

Believe it or not, I recognize that your concern is hybrid builds. My concern is that they not be allowed to continue to dominate the game. They do currently. But the perceived reason for this update is to reverse that trend and to return some measure of balance to the game on behalf of the primarily traditional builds.


Your assertion that adding a small amount of melee power to shiradi would increase blue bar domination of the game is frankly ridiculous. Do you really think that shiradi casters, which have very specific build requirements in terms of their feat and AP selection to be optimal, are suddenly going to start meleeing instead of casting?

The specific post I responded to was a sorcerer/ranger/paladin TWF build, so yes, yes I do.


A small amount of additional melee power associated with that ED is not going to encourage builds, with no useful investment in feats, APs and ability scores to support melee, to give up effective, high efficiency casting to somehow become more powerful.

If have a difficulty with how shiradi works as an offensive caster discipline, I'd remind you that has really nothing to do with how it works for ranged and hyrbid melee/ranged builds. The two issues are entirely separate, and only one of them has a place in a discussion of where and how much melee power should be added to ED core abilities.

Again, the specific post I referenced involved a sorcerer/ranger/paladin TWF. Per that post, the build included ranged combat. This strongly suggests an offensive caster/melee/ranged hybrid. My perspective is that we do not need more of that and encouraging such builds is counter productive for an update that is focused on restoring balance to traditional melee builds.

It is not in any way a comment on individual efforts to find and exploit synergies. It is, however, an observation that we do not need to provide greater synergy with an expanded number of capabilities which, if we did so, would effectively moot the entire focus of the currently planned update.

Therigar
09-14-2014, 12:38 PM
Yes, Swashbuckler Different Tact does stack with Know The Angels.


No, you can't stack Different Tact with Strategic Combat 2. (You also can't add Insightful Damage or Targeting Sights to it)

I don't have to stack Different Tact with Strategic Combat.

In Swashbuckler I can use INT for damage. I can get double damage modifier. So, with 42 INT I can get +16 because of INT for damage and I can get another +16 for double damage modifier -- at least that is how the enhancements seem to read. So, isn't that already +16+16=+32 damage from INT in Swashbuckler?

Now, if Know the Angles stacks that becomes +16+16+8=+40 damage doesn't it? It would be killer if the KTA went first so it was +16+8=+24 and then the +24 got doubled to +48. But, I'm assuming that doesn't happen.

What did I get wrong?

Scrabbler
09-14-2014, 01:07 PM
What did I get wrong?
You claimed that Swashbuckler gets double stat mod to damage, which it doesn't.

It's also a bit misleading to invoke the GSWF stat bonus without mentioning it by name, because that makes it seem like you're talking about an Intelligence-specific benefit instead of something that can benefit Strength too.

GeneralDiomedes
09-14-2014, 01:08 PM
Why not just figure out why it 'breaks' the quests in question, and fix those issues? Or chalk it up to people having earned power and thus should be allowed to utilize that power. If your powers are negated after getting them, are you really ever any more powerful? Why not make some quests that actually reward a person having the boots AND the step ability (perhaps an extra chest or something for being able to reach a specific alcove and pull a lever, doesn't shorten the quest, but rewards the player for having earned those abilities)

Why just not accept the fact that in order to have Mario elements at all which are on the critical path to success, it doesn't make sense to have unintended consequences of gear effects completely bypass the intended quest design. The "fix" would be to just remove Mario elements completely, or make them all optional, which would make DDO just like every other MMO.

As for wings and flying in PnP, I think 8 years of DDO has made it abundantly clear that many imaginative elements in PnP don't translate to a video game.

Therigar
09-14-2014, 01:13 PM
A melee boost to Shiradi makes it easier for melee builds to cap Shiradi so they're done with it and can switch to something else.


Adding Meleepower to Shiradi will be unnoticed by arcane builds, who spend all their time throwing purple sparks instead of ever swinging in melee.


As far as arcanes exploiting the Shiradi destiny: the right way to fix that is to simply remove those two bugs that cause Shiradi to be 5+ times as strong for casters as it should be. That would be an easy job (except for the part about getting Shiradi players to accept it, which would be amazingly hard)



Str + Int/2 won't work for Paladins (who use Divine Might instead)... and for the near future, Paladins are very dominant in melee damage over Fighters and Barbarians. If they someday buff Fighters and Barbs, then using Harper to add Int/2 damage might be pretty attractive... which is funny to think about Barbarian builds starting to sacrifice Constitution for more Intelligence.


What may save Strength from being overtaken by Intelligence damage isn't how high you can buff the stat (it can get higher, but people exaggerate the ease of 100+ str) but that Strength also gives DC for some handy melee tricks.

(Funny though, that Vanguard allows you to inflict stun and trip with an Intelligence DC)

A lot of validity to your observations. I would simply observe that adding melee boosts to EDs to make it easier on melees to cap them would argue for altering every non-melee ED to insert a melee boost.

IMO that would be uncalled for and poor decision making. Moreover, earning 1.98 million XP isn't really that much work. Several quests give 50-100k XP as it is making it a 3 or 4 day effort at most. I realize that is forever for some players, but I doubt that a melee boost is going to actually change that much.

The reason for boosts inside EDs isn't for capping but for running in the destinies. The question I have -- and my objection to the idea -- is based on whether we honestly believe that the intent of the suggestion is to benefit melee classes.

The planned update is geared towards rebalancing traditional builds with all of the synergistic builds that presently dominate the game. Asking for melee power in Shiradi is really asking to make the update moot by continuing to encourage the synergistic builds. IMO that is counter productive and should not occur.

Therigar
09-14-2014, 01:25 PM
You claimed that Swashbuckler gets double stat mod to damage, which it doesn't.

It's also a bit misleading to invoke the GSWF stat bonus without mentioning it by name, because that makes it seem like you're talking about an Intelligence-specific benefit instead of something that can benefit Strength too.

Ah, you are correct. It is GSWF that gets the double stat benefit. And, you are also right that it can benefit STR (or DEX or CHA or whatever the damage modifier happens to be). Thanks for pointing it out to me.

I knew that my bards were getting more damage, I had it confused with the Swashbuckler enhancement line.

So, Swashbuckler lets me use INT for damage mod, GSWF lets me get double damage and Know the Angles lets me add another half INT. It looks to me like my math is still correct but for wrong reasons -- 42 INT with Swashbuckler and GSWF lets me claim +16+16=+32 damage and KtA lets me claim another +8 for a total of +40 damage.

Is that right?

Note that I'm not inquiring about INT v STR v some other stat. I'm only curious about the Harper tree and whether there is some bonus there that might be worth exploring for my INT based bard/rogue. So the question was purely selfish on my part in trying to understand the Harper enhancement and to discover if there is a synergy there that I could exploit for additional damage.

It might not matter since AP don't seem to be increasing so I'd have to take from somewhere to invest in the Harper tree. But, as has been pointed out, I sometimes don't fully understand a mechanic. Knowing how it works in this case could make a difference in the decision to pursue the Harper tree.

Also, it seems to me that I saw GSWF was changing a bit to reduce the amount of bonus damage but replaced it with increased melee power. Did I read that right?

Scrabbler
09-14-2014, 02:13 PM
Ah, you are correct. It is GSWF that gets the double stat benefit.
GSWF does not get a double stat benefit once Harper is out. It's 150%, same as THF style.

Therigar
09-14-2014, 04:15 PM
GSWF does not get a double stat benefit once Harper is out. It's 150%, same as THF style.

That was what I thought I remembered.

Here's the interesting thing that happened, I copied my bard/rogue to Lama and jumped on the airship training dummy. Character is equipped just as I have it on live right now. Took ~8 seconds to kill off the training dummy. As I remember it the GSWF gives +50% stat increase to damage but also gives a boost to melee power. Based on the test run it seems that the net effect is that my character is stronger.

But, taking all that into consideration and observing the changes I could be looking at 200% presuming a full INT based character -- that is correct, yes?

So, using the example 42 INT it would not be +16 from Swashbuckler, +16 for GSWF and +8 for KtA -- it would be +16 for Swashbuckler, +8 for GSWF and +8 for KtA then PLUS a melee power boost from the SWF feats. Yes?

Therigar
09-14-2014, 06:44 PM
Made mention of killing the training dummy, thought I'd comment a bit more.

After learning that my understanding of SWF and shield mastery was horrendously wrong and coming to grips with the fact that no amount of whining would change the direction of the update to give us 4 different melee fighting styles, I copied over to Lamannia 3 characters with Celestia (including 1 that had two Celestia). I then reincarnated them until they had the same previous lives, rebuilt them all as humans, took them all to L28 as pure class fighters. I twisted the same twists, chose as near as possible the same feats and enhancements (this will be obvious why "near as possible" in a moment) and put them all in the same ED with the same tree choices.

I set one character up with the SWF line, one with the TWF line and one with the Shield Mastery line. Since Vanguard seemed mostly designed for the Shield Mastery line I did not pull from it on the SWF and TWF builds -- only on the SM build.

I then took the characters onto an airship and attacked the training dummy. I first killed the dummy to make it vulnerable to whatever bad things happen after it is first dead. Then I filmed the attacks to see how long it took to kill the dummy.

TWF with dual Celestia took ~11 seconds, SM with Celestia took ~14 seconds and SWF with Celestia took ~15 seconds. Next I copied over my bard/rogue build and left it just as it is on live. That build is equipped with Balizarde so the timing piece will be a bit different. With no changes but running Swashbuckler with SWF under the same circumstance the dummy died in ~8 seconds.

Next, I rebuilt the bard/rogue to drop rogue but add fighter to get into the Vanguard tree using a LR20. I replaced SWF with SM but otherwise took Swashbuckler as a bard. Kill time jumped to ~15 seconds -- roughly on par with Celestia and both SM and SWF with pure fighter. Left ED and twists the same as in the bard/rogue test.

My final test is on a paladin/fighter with Nightmare using both SM and SWF. I need to run that one still to see if there is any observable difference compared to the Celestia builds as I have several paladin/fighter characters at present. EDIT: I just ran this and it took ~9 seconds with SM. Not sure I will test SWF.

I should state that in none of the tests did I use boosts of any kind -- just straight STR (or in the case of the bard/rogue INT) at unhasted speed plus weapon procs (no gear procs or anything to add to damage unless it came from the equipped weapons or shield/buckler).

Not sure of the relevance except that the training dummy represents a fairly consistent enemy on which to test DPS.

Scrabbler
09-14-2014, 07:46 PM
I should state that in none of the tests did I use boosts of any kind -- just straight STR (or in the case of the bard/rogue INT) at unhasted speed
Unhasted makes the results less accurate. Vanguard benefits less from Haste, and suffers less if you don't have it.

Therigar
09-14-2014, 07:52 PM
Unhasted makes the results less accurate. Vanguard benefits less from Haste, and suffers less if you don't have it.

If Lama stays up I'll give it a look at hasted speeds then.

I do understand that slight variations due to weapon type or, in the case of SM w Vaguard, shield selection will have an impact. The bard/rogue v bard/fighter v paladin/fighter are more for my personal information since bard/rogue and paladin/fighter represent the main character types I am playing.

Not sure that I'll spend much added time however since my curiosity regarding the builds is substantially answered by the tests I've run thus far.

AMADHA
09-14-2014, 09:21 PM
Lamannia has been updated and is now open!

Release notes and Known Issues will be updated shortly.

Can't wait to see if connection issues are in there! Been trying to do anything on the server but once a character is selected the connection lag notice is red right from the get go and then the server connection is lost. Tried three different machines which have very fast ping times, but same result and the time of day doesn't matter. I'm also a VIP so I should have some kind of priority. Thus far this release sucks. BTW no problems accessing the live servers on the same machines.

LordKalkin
09-14-2014, 10:29 PM
This change is silly. Will it also 'reload' as fast? Or is it still 10 minutes? These shared cool downs are getting obnoxious. Such as the different flasks, all sharing the same cooldown even tho they have completely different functions.

Obnoxious would be one adjective. Unless the boots dont take 1 million years to recharge now.

blerkington
09-14-2014, 10:57 PM
A fair criticism.

Hi,

I'm glad to hear that you concede those points were fair criticism. If you are truly sincere, then perhaps you will stop posting disparaging statements like 'AA is bad' and stating that 'respectable' ranged characters don't run in shiradi.

I have no problem at all with people who say that they think certain ranged builds are worse than others, so long as they say why, and keep the nasty editorialising to a minimum.


Supporting my observation that I don't see ranged characters running in Shiradi since the focus of the game (at least in the context of forum postings) is all about end game -- that is, final fights in highest possible content against red a purple named enemies.

You may not see it, but it doesn't mean that it isn't happening. My ranger hybrid runs endgame content at higher difficulty levels in shiradi, and can complete solo or provide a good contribution to my groups. I also see other players doing it.

Clearly the game is not just all about DPS against red- and purple-named bosses, because other tasks are required to complete quests. Building to optimise for that task alone means that a character may be lacking at the many other situations the game throws at us. DPS spreadsheets, although useful, will only get you so far.

I also think it's a little bit sneaky for you to try and shift the blame from yourself to what you claim generally occurs on the forums.

This might be a good place to point out that there a several types of ranged build, and that to use the term 'ranged' doesn't exclusively mean archers. You will see crossbow users and throwers running in shiradi too, so making generalisations about it being a bad choice is a mistake.


Actually, in this case I think you've missed something. If you are advocating for other approaches than melee then why are we discussing adding melee to an ED that is used mostly by casters and somewhat by ranged? While your critiques of my points-of-view have merit I think in this case you have found fault just for the sake of doing so.

I am not advocating for any particular playstyle, and I am quite happy to see the other EDs become more competitive with LD. Once again, the fact that many casters select shiradi has nothing to do with a discussion of how viable it is for melees, ranged builds, and hybrids.

For the umpteenth time, the reason I would like some melee power to be added to shiradi is so that it can be a decent alternative for hybrid builds, and so that it doesn't fall any further behind the other choices than it already is. It's just about keeping pace, not becoming relatively more powerful.


Believe it or not, I recognize that your concern is hybrid builds. My concern is that they not be allowed to continue to dominate the game. They do currently. But the perceived reason for this update is to reverse that trend and to return some measure of balance to the game on behalf of the primarily traditional builds.

The general point you are making here is not relevant to this discussion, for the following reason.

Although you have not stated which hybrid builds you believe to be dominant, I can't believe that you are referring to any melee/ranged hybrid build currently running in shiradi. Any dominance enjoyed by other builds can be dealt with separately to the issue of whether or not shiradi should get a melee power increase.


The specific post I responded to was a sorcerer/ranger/paladin TWF build, so yes, yes I do.

This sounds like an interesting flavour build which could also be somewhat effective. By saying this, I certainly don't intend any offense to the person who came up with it. However, I have not encountered this build or anything like it in game, and I suspect that while versatile, it would lack anywhere near the full offensive power of a specialised shiradi caster or a specialised ranged character.

Knowing as we both do, the requirements to be good in melee in higher difficulty content, are you really claiming that adding a total of say 12-16 melee power would make such a build OP? Are you seriously claiming that a specialist ranged or melee build, running in one of the high DPS destinies is even going to be anywhere close to the example you've provided?

If you do actually think that, I'd suggest you either read up on melee DPS comparisons between these EDs, or better yet, do some experiments in game yourself. Otherwise I'd ask that you stop being frivolous merely for the sake of argument.


Again, the specific post I referenced involved a sorcerer/ranger/paladin TWF. Per that post, the build included ranged combat. This strongly suggests an offensive caster/melee/ranged hybrid. My perspective is that we do not need more of that and encouraging such builds is counter productive for an update that is focused on restoring balance to traditional melee builds.

The build mentioned in that post sounds clever and fun to play, but I would be very, very surprised if it were anywhere near the top of the DPS food chain in melee, ranged or casting power. We all know that specialisation is the key to excellence in damage output in this game.

If a build doesn't have room for all of the feats and enhancements required for specialisation, then it's going to be behind. I'm sure it could be capable of completing higher difficulty content in the hands of a good player, but it's not going to be nearly as good at any of those combat styles as a specialist. Never mind gearing issues.

I think this line of your argument is nothing more than misdirection. If you would like to cite a real example of a dominant hybrid build I would be happy to explain to you why the dominance that build enjoys has nothing to do with the shiradi ED, and following on from that, why adding a small amount of melee power to shiradi would not change that.

Thanks.

Therigar
09-15-2014, 12:52 AM
If you are truly sincere, then perhaps you will stop posting disparaging statements like 'AA is bad' and stating that 'respectable' ranged characters don't run in shiradi.

I believe you've read into my post what you want to see rather than what is there. I did not say in it that AA is bad and I qualified my comment on respectable ranged characters by observing that they SELDOM run in Shiradi -- not that they do not ever.


I have no problem at all with people who say that they think certain ranged builds are worse than others, so long as they say why, and keep the nasty editorialising to a minimum.

Of no material value to the conversation since the post made no comment whatsoever about the value of ranged builds -- either specifically or in general. It is almost as if you are trying to provoke an argument when no slight was given by simply pretending it is there.


You may not see it, but it doesn't mean that it isn't happening. My ranger hybrid runs endgame content at higher difficulty levels in shiradi, and can complete solo or provide a good contribution to my groups. I also see other players doing it.

Meaning you see it and I don't. That does not invalidate my observation. What I observe is valid within the scope of what I observe. We very possibly play on different servers or at different times or in different content. Nevertheless, my observation is that respectable ranged characters seldom run in Shiradi -- which is what I said to begin with.


Clearly the game is not just all about DPS against red- and purple-named bosses, because other tasks are required to complete quests. Building to optimise for that task alone means that a character may be lacking at the many other situations the game throws at us. DPS spreadsheets, although useful, will only get you so far.

The other tasks may be required to complete quests but weak v quest + strong v red/purple > strong v quest + weak against red/purple. Thus it is moot whether some particular build or ED is useful in getting to the penultimate fight(s). All that really matters is winning at the end. This is why ranged builds routinely choose something other than Shiradi as their ED of choice for the bulk of content. Yes, there might be some few number of exceptions and yes, there might be some small number of players preferring to focus on trash before the red/purple names -- but that is not the norm as best as I can tell.


I also think it's a little bit sneaky for you to try and shift the blame from yourself to what you claim generally occurs on the forums.

It would be if I were to blame for something. Again, you appear to be trying to find an argument where there is none. I did not reference you in any way, make any comment on the value of ranged v other combat types, or do any other thing except to observe that buffing Shiradi will lead to continued dominance of blue bar builds when the putative intent of the update is to restore balance to traditional melee builds. That observation seems valid -- in particular since your own posts effectively concede that there are issues with Shiradi casters.


This might be a good place to point out that there a several types of ranged build, and that to use the term 'ranged' doesn't exclusively mean archers. You will see crossbow users and throwers running in shiradi too, so making generalisations about it being a bad choice is a mistake.

The mistake is you making assertions about my post that are untrue. I never said it was a mistake and I certainly did not limit the types of ranged builds. Again, what I said was that ranged builds seldom run in Shiradi.


I am not advocating for any particular playstyle, and I am quite happy to see the other EDs become more competitive with LD. Once again, the fact that many casters select shiradi has nothing to do with a discussion of how viable it is for melees, ranged builds, and hybrids.

This is just untrue. You are advocating for adding melee power to Shiradi because of hybrid builds -- your own posting says this. You, then, are advocating for a specific play style.

I am opposed to that not because of the play style but because Shiradi is already used by blue bar builds to dominate the game. The game is out of balance as a result and the update is intended to restore some balance by encouraging traditional melee builds.

It would be an egregious mistake to make that effort moot by further buffing Shiradi so that the blue bar builds can continue their dominance.


For the umpteenth time, the reason I would like some melee power to be added to shiradi is so that it can be a decent alternative for hybrid builds, and so that it doesn't fall any further behind the other choices than it already is. It's just about keeping pace, not becoming relatively more powerful.

That may be your intent but it will not be the consequence if melee power is added to Shiradi. However, your observations about it not falling further behind other classes or becoming a decent alternative for hybrid builds seems more in line with my observation that I don't see respectable ranged characters running in Shiradi than it does your assertion that defeating trash mobs is somehow a greater concern than winning against red/purple named.


The general point you are making here is not relevant to this discussion, for the following reason.

Although you have not stated which hybrid builds you believe to be dominant, I can't believe that you are referring to any melee/ranged hybrid build currently running in shiradi. Any dominance enjoyed by other builds can be dealt with separately to the issue of whether or not shiradi should get a melee power increase.

This is false. The sheer number of changes that would be needed to deal separately with the issue of blue bar dominance would completely gut and rewrite Shiradi. But wait, isn't that what the developers have said they have in mind and the reason they are not considering adding melee power to Shiradi -- because they are going to do another ranged pass and Shiradi is on the table for that.


This sounds like an interesting flavour build which could also be somewhat effective. By saying this, I certainly don't intend any offense to the person who came up with it. However, I have not encountered this build or anything like it in game, and I suspect that while versatile, it would lack anywhere near the full offensive power of a specialised shiradi caster or a specialised ranged character.

Knowing as we both do, the requirements to be good in melee in higher difficulty content, are you really claiming that adding a total of say 12-16 melee power would make such a build OP? Are you seriously claiming that a specialist ranged or melee build, running in one of the high DPS destinies is even going to be anywhere close to the example you've provided?

If you do actually think that, I'd suggest you either read up on melee DPS comparisons between these EDs, or better yet, do some experiments in game yourself. Otherwise I'd ask that you stop being frivolous merely for the sake of argument.

Although you accused me of speaking ill of builds, it is clear that you are the one taking exception to a person's character. I simply replied to the post where the sorcerer/ranger/paladin was referenced and observed that adding melee power to Shiradi is a bad idea because it will further increase the dominance of blue bar builds and moot the balancing that this update is supposed to provide.

It might well be that adding melee power would make the build in the post I reference better. That isn't the problem with the idea. The problem with the idea of adding melee power is in the added synergies that it might give to the already dominating blue bar builds that are exploiting Shiradi.

As to what I'm suggesting -- I'm suggesting that you would not be fighting this hard to add melee power to Shiradi if there was not a synergy out there. Whether I know what it is -- or whether it is the build in the post I referred to -- is immaterial.

What is material is that buffing Shiradi which is already breaking the game because of its exploitation by ranged optional blue bar builds makes zero sense except to a person who wants to further break things by gaining additional synergies.


The build mentioned in that post sounds clever and fun to play, but I would be very, very surprised if it were anywhere near the top of the DPS food chain in melee, ranged or casting power. We all know that specialisation is the key to excellence in damage output in this game.

If a build doesn't have room for all of the feats and enhancements required for specialisation, then it's going to be behind. I'm sure it could be capable of completing higher difficulty content in the hands of a good player, but it's not going to be nearly as good at any of those combat styles as a specialist. Never mind gearing issues.

I think this line of your argument is nothing more than misdirection. If you would like to cite a real example of a dominant hybrid build I would be happy to explain to you why the dominance that build enjoys has nothing to do with the shiradi ED, and following on from that, why adding a small amount of melee power to shiradi would not change that.

Whether the build is clever and fun to play or whether it is near the top of the DPS food chain is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Shiradi is already powerful, already unbalances the game by being the ED of choice for many top tier blue bar builds AND it is on the table for redesign/update in the future.

Adding to it now in order to provide additional synergy to hybrid builds or additional capabilities to the dominating blue bar builds serves no useful purpose. To the contrary, it complicates a future update by creating abilities that may be removed entirely with that pass and it makes all the effort to rebalance the game by making fighters and paladins relevant a complete waste of time and effort by buffing builds that are already abusing Shiradi and dominating the game.

blerkington
09-15-2014, 02:37 AM
I believe you've read into my post what you want to see rather than what is there. I did not say in it that AA is bad and I qualified my comment on respectable ranged characters by observing that they SELDOM run in Shiradi -- not that they do not ever.

'AA is bad' are your own words, and they were the main theme of that other last ranged combat discussion where you got yourself into trouble.

My difficulty with your original opening statement consists in the use of the word 'respectable', which I think is unnecessarily disparaging.

I would also like to repeat my point that ranged =/= archer builds. Some of the better thrower builds do run in shiradi as their main destiny. The sort of generalisation you are making here is not helping the discussion, because it is lumping a lot of quite different builds together, some of which are far better at utilising the ROF centred strength of shiradi than others.


Of no material value to the conversation since the post made no comment whatsoever about the value of ranged builds -- either specifically or in general. It is almost as if you are trying to provoke an argument when no slight was given by simply pretending it is there.

See my point above. I am having trouble believing that you don't understand how provocative using terms like 'bad', and that saying ranged builds who run in shiradi aren't respectable isn't provocative, but if you are going to insist on not seeing the problem here I will give you the benefit of the doubt. We aren't making any progress with this part of the discussion anyway.


Meaning you see it and I don't. That does not invalidate my observation. What I observe is valid within the scope of what I observe. We very possibly play on different servers or at different times or in different content. Nevertheless, my observation is that respectable ranged characters seldom run in Shiradi -- which is what I said to begin with.

I agree that it's more usual to see archers (not all ranged builds) running in destinies other than shiradi, especially in that group of players concerned with optimising DPS. Again, my issue here is with the use of the word 'respectable', in that it is value-laden and implies disparagement of other builds.


The other tasks may be required to complete quests but weak v quest + strong v red/purple > strong v quest + weak against red/purple. Thus it is moot whether some particular build or ED is useful in getting to the penultimate fight(s). All that really matters is winning at the end. This is why ranged builds routinely choose something other than Shiradi as their ED of choice for the bulk of content. Yes, there might be some few number of exceptions and yes, there might be some small number of players preferring to focus on trash before the red/purple names -- but that is not the norm as best as I can tell.

No, you are wrong here, and this is why. Quests require the completion of a number of tasks, including but not just a boss fight, in order to win. Not all of these tasks are trivial. In some quests, handling trash is just as important as killing (or kiting) a boss. In our two endgame raids it's quite possible to fail (at any difficulty) if the group doesn't keep up with trash disposal.

I do agree that shiradi is at a serious disadvantage for archers when it comes to boss DPS. Having tried all of the destinies on my main, I can see why archers usually run in LD or FOTW. The damage output is streets ahead. But once again, my point is not about how often destinies are selected by archers (or ranged characters in general), it's about your characterisation of certain ranged builds being respectable or otherwise.

In short, please stop talking trash about builds you don't consider optimal for your own narrowly defined purposes.


It would be if I were to blame for something. Again, you appear to be trying to find an argument where there is none. I did not reference you in any way, make any comment on the value of ranged v other combat types, or do any other thing except to observe that buffing Shiradi will lead to continued dominance of blue bar builds when the putative intent of the update is to restore balance to traditional melee builds. That observation seems valid -- in particular since your own posts effectively concede that there are issues with Shiradi casters.

I do not agree with your assessment that I'm trying to find an argument where there is none, for the reasons I've already mentioned. However, I'm happy to abandon this part of the discussion as it's not going anywhere useful.

Buffing shiradi by adding a small amount of melee power will not cause blue bar builds to remain dominant, because apart from flavour builds which are not among the most powerful, it won't affect how the more powerful shiradi caster builds are played.

If you could actually explain how you think shiradi casters would be made stronger in real terms by adding melee power, rather than just making the claim without a supporting argument, I would be most pleased.

On the other hand, buffing shiradi with a small amount of melee power will improve the viability of melees and hybrids who run in this destiny. They would still lag far behind the other EDs in terms of melee DPS and possibly overall. It just gives melees more choice of which destiny to use.

It is not clear to me why our devs think that LD and FOTW can be so good for both melee and ranged combat while shiradi cannot. That is a balancing issue right there, and it goes right to the stated purpose of the melee power pass, which was to buff the lower performing destinies.


The mistake is you making assertions about my post that are untrue. I never said it was a mistake and I certainly did not limit the types of ranged builds. Again, what I said was that ranged builds seldom run in Shiradi.

Archers don't usually run in shiradi, I'm happy to concede that, and I think we both understand why. However, some other types of ranged builds use shiradi as their preferred destiny. This is why I made the point about not generalising, and I think it is still true.


This is just untrue. You are advocating for adding melee power to Shiradi because of hybrid builds -- your own posting says this. You, then, are advocating for a specific play style.

I am opposed to that not because of the play style but because Shiradi is already used by blue bar builds to dominate the game. The game is out of balance as a result and the update is intended to restore some balance by encouraging traditional melee builds.

It would be an egregious mistake to make that effort moot by further buffing Shiradi so that the blue bar builds can continue their dominance.

Yes, you are right about my advocating for hybrid builds, and I should have worded my post more carefully. Despite that, I also believe that melee builds should be competitive in other destinies besides LD and FOTW, and I am happy to see that is being attempted. These two things are not mutually exclusive.

Despite this, I don't think that melees are as far behind casters as people make out, even currently, and certainly not after the upcoming changes. Good melees excel in EE content; I run with a selection of them every day, and I see them destroying that content.

The real issue is not so much a power difference between melees and casters, rather that it's much easier to get to an adequate standard to succeed in EE content on a shiradi caster than it is for a melee.

Take a look at Grailhawk's DPS comparisons and you may see what I'm talking about. Shiradi DPS is not anywhere near the highest in the game. What makes that style works so well is that it is a decent amount of DPS (both AOE and single target), combined with SP efficiency, incidental but useful CC, as well as excellent defence and self healing.

Lastly, adding melee power to shiradi is not going to increase the power of shiradi caster builds one little bit, because those builds don't rely on melee. It really doesn't matter if a shiradi arcance, druid or divine can theoretically hit for 10% more damage in melee than before, because their melee ability is already so suboptimal it's rarely a good idea to use it if they are specced as casting specialists.


That may be your intent but it will not be the consequence if melee power is added to Shiradi. However, your observations about it not falling further behind other classes or becoming a decent alternative for hybrid builds seems more in line with my observation that I don't see respectable ranged characters running in Shiradi than it does your assertion that defeating trash mobs is somehow a greater concern than winning against red/purple named.

Yes, it would be the consequence for the following reasons. Firstly, people who already run hybrid melee/ranged characters in shiradi will retain their current position in the DPS hierarchy, bad though it is.

I have never asserted that defeating trash mobs is more important than DPS against red or purple named monsters, so please don't straw man me. What I do believe and have said is that it is a task required for quest completion, which it is obviously. Your approach to assessing the value of different builds falls down in the game world because it is too simple a model which doesn't take these things into account.


This is false. The sheer number of changes that would be needed to deal separately with the issue of blue bar dominance would completely gut and rewrite Shiradi. But wait, isn't that what the developers have said they have in mind and the reason they are not considering adding melee power to Shiradi -- because they are going to do another ranged pass and Shiradi is on the table for that.

I don't share your opinion about shiradi caster dominance of the game because in the endgame content I play I see many other build types doing well. For what it's worth, I think shiradi casters present far less of a game balance problem than DC casters.

We will see what happens in the ranged pass, although I don't have high hopes for it. I think apart from very high ROF ranged builds, shiradi will remain behind as a ranged combat option because of the mechanical superiority of LD and FOTW. We will have to see what happens there once some decisions have been made.

However, following your own logic, I don't think you should be concerned that shiradi casters will become any more powerful when they gain ranged power later one. That's because the strong caster builds don't and won't use ranged weapons then any more than they will start using melee weapons after the melee power pass.


Although you accused me of speaking ill of builds, it is clear that you are the one taking exception to a person's character. I simply replied to the post where the sorcerer/ranger/paladin was referenced and observed that adding melee power to Shiradi is a bad idea because it will further increase the dominance of blue bar builds and moot the balancing that this update is supposed to provide.

It might well be that adding melee power would make the build in the post I reference better. That isn't the problem with the idea. The problem with the idea of adding melee power is in the added synergies that it might give to the already dominating blue bar builds that are exploiting Shiradi.

As to what I'm suggesting -- I'm suggesting that you would not be fighting this hard to add melee power to Shiradi if there was not a synergy out there. Whether I know what it is -- or whether it is the build in the post I referred to -- is immaterial.

What is material is that buffing Shiradi which is already breaking the game because of its exploitation by ranged optional blue bar builds makes zero sense except to a person who wants to further break things by gaining additional synergies.

Actually, I was very careful not to speak ill of that multiclass build you referenced. You are welcome to provide a quote to support that claim, but you won't be able to find one. I don't consider calling something a flavour build to be perjorative.

I very much like seeing people make flavour builds work in harder content, both for the sake of seeing something different, and because of the player skill it requires. I play a flavour build myself, and a lot of the pleasure I get from it is doing as well as I can in hard content, where according to many forum dwellers only optimised FOTM builds should go and no-one else can perform.

I note that despite your earlier claims, you are unable to provide an example of a dominant hybrid build that runs in shiradi, and now you have retreated to claiming that there might be some as yet unknown synergy between shiradi caster builds and a small increase in melee power.

I don't think that's logically impossible either, but nor do I think the tipping point to create a dominant shiradi hybrid will be an increase in melee DPS of around 10% when it is already so far behind other destinies in melee.


Whether the build is clever and fun to play or whether it is near the top of the DPS food chain is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Shiradi is already powerful, already unbalances the game by being the ED of choice for many top tier blue bar builds AND it is on the table for redesign/update in the future.

Adding to it now in order to provide additional synergy to hybrid builds or additional capabilities to the dominating blue bar builds serves no useful purpose. To the contrary, it complicates a future update by creating abilities that may be removed entirely with that pass and it makes all the effort to rebalance the game by making fighters and paladins relevant a complete waste of time and effort by buffing builds that are already abusing Shiradi and dominating the game.

My observations about the build being clever and fun to play were intended as praise for the person who came up with that build. Whether you think it's relevant to the main discussion is neither here nor there.

Once again, what it is about shiradi that makes it a strong choice for casters has nothing to do with how it performs for melees, ranged builds, or hybrids. I think a large buff to melee power, or adding abilities to shiradi which improve melee DPS could lead to the problem you describe, but this is not what we've been discussing.

I really think you are missing the central point here, which is the difference between a relative and an absolute buff. Adding a small amount of melee power to shiradi will mean that for melee/ranged hybrids, they don't become any worse off after the update than they are now. I'm not asking for shiradi to be made into a melee-focused destiny. I'm just asking that it doesn't get any worse in comparison to other destinies, than it already is.

Thanks.

Therigar
09-15-2014, 10:43 AM
I really think you are missing the central point here, which is the difference between a relative and an absolute buff. Adding a small amount of melee power to shiradi will mean that for melee/ranged hybrids, they don't become any worse off after the update than they are now. I'm not asking for shiradi to be made into a melee-focused destiny. I'm just asking that it doesn't get any worse in comparison to other destinies, than it already is.

Regardless of your efforts to create a conflict where none exists and irrespective of your effort to imply bias that was not in my post, the central point here is not what you contend it is.

The central point is that Shiradi is not going to get a buff to melee power because the developers have said it is not and because doing so would introduce yet more synergies to builds that already exploit Shiradi rendering the balancing effort for traditional melees moot. Instead Shiradi is on the table for a rework when the ranged pass comes about.

Therigar
09-15-2014, 10:56 AM
I do agree that shiradi is at a serious disadvantage for archers when it comes to boss DPS. Having tried all of the destinies on my main, I can see why archers usually run in LD or FOTW. The damage output is streets ahead. But once again, my point is not about how often destinies are selected by archers (or ranged characters in general), it's about your characterisation of certain ranged builds being respectable or otherwise.

Great, I'm glad you agree that I am right. After all what I said was that respectable ranged characters SELDOM run in Shiradi.

In spite of your effort to turn that into some disparaging comment by me it is obvious that you understand that what is usual is for them to run in some other ED.


I note that despite your earlier claims, you are unable to provide an example of a dominant hybrid build that runs in shiradi, and now you have retreated to claiming that there might be some as yet unknown synergy between shiradi caster builds and a small increase in melee power.

I really do not know what you are referring to. I made no claims that I am aware of that I would provide an example of anything. What I said was that blue bar Shiradi builds already dominate the game. You are making up things (or perhaps dragging in months old discussions that were never part of this topic) just to be argumentative.

It would be more productive if you would restrict yourself to the subject at hand.

Just so you know what that is:

U23 brings a new mechanic for combat and adds melee power to a number of enhancements and destinies in order to rework the balance in DDO and to reinvigorate traditional melee builds (primarily fighters and paladins). Adding melee power to an epic destiny that is primarily designed for ranged characters and that is primarily exploited by blue bar characters does not contribute to that balance. To the contrary, adding yet more potential synergy to Shiradi helps retain the imbalance that currently exists. Consequently, melee power is currently not planned for Shiradi and should continue to remain off the table. The alternative is already planned -- to wit, Shiradi will be part of the rework when the next ranged pass occurs.

Oxarhamar
09-15-2014, 12:13 PM
The Devs givith

The Devs taketh away

Ladislaio
09-15-2014, 12:29 PM
Epic Scales of Surety and Epic Chain of Conviction are both medium armors while the heroic versions are light armors. I haven't found a dev post stating if this is how they are actually intended or not, and I know that some people are disappointed by the new versions being medium armor and thus unsuited for rogues, rangers, and swash builds. Given that the ECoC is chain armor and made of Mithral it seem very thematically strange that it counts as medium armor also.
It would be nice to have a Dev-direct comment on if these are meant to be medium armors, and possibly an explanation as to why they decided to go away from the light armor of the heroic versions.

If I simply failed to find the post I apologize; I did dig fairly far back into the Dev Tracker tho. I didn't notice or bring this up earlier because I don't have any toons that wear light or medium armor so I discarded them without looking and just assumed that they were light armor like the heroic versions initially.

Psiandron
09-15-2014, 12:38 PM
Epic Scales of Surety and Epic Chain of Conviction are both medium armors while the heroic versions are light armors. I haven't found a dev post stating if this is how they are actually intended or not, and I know that some people are disappointed by the new versions being medium armor and thus unsuited for rogues, rangers, and swash builds. Given that the ECoC is chain armor and made of Mithral it seem very thematically strange that it counts as medium armor also.
It would be nice to have a Dev-direct comment on if these are meant to be medium armors, and possibly an explanation as to why they decided to go away from the light armor of the heroic versions.

If I simply failed to find the post I apologize; I did dig fairly far back into the Dev Tracker tho. I didn't notice or bring this up earlier because I don't have any toons that wear light or medium armor so I discarded them without looking and just assumed that they were light armor like the heroic versions initially.

Sev came out and said (too lazy to find citation) that they were removing the mithral property from these armors.

When they did, I noted in one of the Lamannia threads that this left the new content w/o a light armor and particularly one that would apply to unbreakable adamancy. Not sure whether the devs see any problem with this or not. I wouldn't mind hearing from them on this as well.

poltt48
09-15-2014, 12:53 PM
So devs can you tell us when U23 goes live? Looks like your all done with lamnia testing since last week you said that what is there now was last look for U23 on lamnia.

Seikojin
09-15-2014, 05:00 PM
It will be this week or by the 30th.

Last time I was on lamma, both those armors were light.

dunklezhan
09-15-2014, 05:28 PM
We explained this yesterday, but the driver for this change is to prevent double-jumping from continuing to break quests and other content, and prevent exploits.

It was definitely more than just the raid then that was a problem? Fair enough then I guess. I thought it was just a lazy fix to protect one quest, hadn't heard anyone say anything else.

bbqzor
09-15-2014, 06:57 PM
Epic Scales of Surety and Epic Chain of Conviction are both medium armors while the heroic versions are light armors. I haven't found a dev post stating if this is how they are actually intended or not, and I know that some people are disappointed by the new versions being medium armor and thus unsuited for rogues, rangers, and swash builds.

This is correct, currently they were both medium (in previous versions of lama they were indeed light), and its terribly disappointing. It leaves light armor totally in the wind, and thats the one armor type thats "required" to stay inside its box.


Sev came out and said (too lazy to find citation) that they were removing the mithral property from these armors.

I had assumed this was solely to correct issues with the MDB, ACP, and ASF values on the armor being inappropriate because armor now scales with "level" (as in higher items naturally have better armor/mdb/etc, so this was "double-dipping"). There was nothing to indicate anything else, as he made that comment in response to questions about mdb and asf.


When they did, I noted in one of the Lamannia threads that this left the new content w/o a light armor and particularly one that would apply to unbreakable adamancy. Not sure whether the devs see any problem with this or not.

As the items are natively light armor without mithral, it didnt ring any alarm bells at the time for me. But here we are, so perhaps it should have. I have to assume this was unintentional, given the context you mention as well as several other issues.


I wouldn't mind hearing from them on this as well.

Me as well, its why I mentioned it in my bug listing. I can see many reasons why it would be a bug, and almost no reason why it would be intentional. Rather than enumerate upon them all here, Ill wait to see if its an error which is corrected, or if we hear directly that its intentional.

Suffice it to say I would be shocked if it was intentional, and be one of the people clamoring for a return to light. More likely the guy in charge of removing mithral did, and it accidentally changed the armor type as well as correcting the mdb/acp/asf values, and it just needs another pass to touch up that side effect. Im kind of operating on that assumption.

If the devs opt for something completely different, Id appreciate a direct statement as such, along with a very well reasoned explanation of why they made that decision. Because Ive given a fair bit of consideration to what they might be seeing as concern and cant really come up with anything meaningful. If its something serious and Im missing it, fine, but otherwise Id at least think a lot of us players might have some input into how to better approach the issue than just leaving light armor guys without options.

MangLord
09-15-2014, 07:33 PM
Given how crappy the light shadowscale armor option is without an investment in sneak attack (and a milquetoast 2d6 at that), I would have hoped for a light armor option better than black scales. I felt fairly enthusiastic about the new Orchard light armor, but I guess that's dead in the water now? (pardon the pun) Pretty disappointing.
I'm on board with the Dev Team's decisions after some consideration 90% of the time, but this seems like an oversight that passive-aggressively punishes evasion characters for enjoying the game while heavy armor fans have suffered.
I feel the pain as a fan of both, but moving attention from one faction to another has never worked in the history of diplomatic relations. You wind up riding the fence without a friendly side to land on. I like my heavy armor dwarf fighter, but I also like my nimble elven archer. What with the reasonably good benefits of Shadow Striker armor and the upcoming boosts to PRR/MRR, I can see that being the most attractive option for a melee DPS, even over the new Orchard gear, as it will save a much more precious feat.
Ideally I'd all styles of play to be on equal footing, rather than a see-saw effect of favoring one from update to update and falling into an endless cycle of playing catch up. I see it as unintentionally favoring a child for a while, then subconsciously ignoring their needs because you feel bad for the rest. You can't constantly play catch-up with whatever child you're neglecting, because that's a never ending cycle of resentment. The best solution is to put them all on equal footing after you recognize and acknowledge your mistake, rather than punishing a child/class and having to make it up later when unarmed/TWF start to lag behind. Thank goodness I don't have several hundred thousand kids to please like the devs do. I'd go crazy.

Scrabbler
09-15-2014, 08:16 PM
It's interesting that although the new MRR rules give heavy armored pure Fighter or Paladin builds a huge amount of protection against energy damage (probably more than they deserve), it's still not enough to let them play Haunted Halls of Eveningstar with anywhere near the amount of safety an Evasion guy has.

Turns out the real root of that problem is a mistake in how electric statues work... even so, it's one example of MRR not solving the problems.

-Avalon-
09-15-2014, 09:30 PM
The Devs givith

The Devs taketh away

And Lo, behold the now-semi-useless tree that once stood mighty!


Epic Scales of Surety and Epic Chain of Conviction are both medium armors while the heroic versions are light armors. I haven't found a dev post stating if this is how they are actually intended or not, and I know that some people are disappointed by the new versions being medium armor and thus unsuited for rogues, rangers, and swash builds. Given that the ECoC is chain armor and made of Mithral it seem very thematically strange that it counts as medium armor also.
It would be nice to have a Dev-direct comment on if these are meant to be medium armors, and possibly an explanation as to why they decided to go away from the light armor of the heroic versions.

If I simply failed to find the post I apologize; I did dig fairly far back into the Dev Tracker tho. I didn't notice or bring this up earlier because I don't have any toons that wear light or medium armor so I discarded them without looking and just assumed that they were light armor like the heroic versions initially.


Sev came out and said (too lazy to find citation) that they were removing the mithral property from these armors.

When they did, I noted in one of the Lamannia threads that this left the new content w/o a light armor and particularly one that would apply to unbreakable adamancy. Not sure whether the devs see any problem with this or not. I wouldn't mind hearing from them on this as well.

Yeah, still wondering where the Shroud of the Abbot upgrade went... Such a disappointment. And with the issues with Mabar? And the MRR making PM auras heal for less? And then popping Int to Dam to T3? Cloak of Night (PM Enhancement is still a trade off of -50% light damage for -50% Negative Energy Healing... yet no other enhancement on ANY tree requires you to punch yourself in the crotch to get a bonus...)

Why don't they just post something saying they hate PM's? If they don't, why don't they try and rectify at least ONE or TWO of these issues?

Scrabbler
09-16-2014, 12:38 AM
yet no other enhancement on ANY tree requires you to punch yourself in the crotch to get a bonus...
Acrobat Shadow Dodge. But yeah, PM Cloak of Night is a terrible design.

Draiden
09-16-2014, 12:43 AM
Negative energy healing being affected by MRR on pale masters still isn't fixed. Bug reported it yet again.

I see 25%ish reduction versus live, my only MRR item is Dumathoin's Bracers for sheltering 30, taking them off sends my healing numbers back up.




Is this going to be fixed before release? MRR is a pretty substantial nerf for PMs at the moment.

Can somebody please address the current state of this crippling bug?

Synthetic
09-16-2014, 08:02 AM
We are not planning on changing how shields interact with these feats for this update. If we did this then we are essentially forcing Vanguard builds into using bludgeoning main hand weapons and essentially eliminating the sword and shield archetype.


Sev~

Sword and shield isn't an archetype. You should allow this as you're currently allowing THF and SWF to stack with shield feats. There's no reason take a sword or warhammer because a bastard sword or dwarven axe is a lot more damage after you add THF feats. By allowing IC bludgeon on shields you introduce another choice even if its sub optimal it frees up feats for other things - I.e. adds build diversity.

Therigar
09-16-2014, 09:19 AM
You should allow this as you're currently allowing THF and SWF to stack with shield feats.

Having argued for SWF and SM to both work simultaneously and having been embarrassingly shown that they do not do so in the current game and are not meant to do so in the update, I am somewhat confused by this assertion. What I think it is saying is that Vanguard enhancements producing secondary shield bashes work without the need for the SM feat line and so proc for characters who instead pursue the THF or SWF lines.

In my testing of this I found that bard/fighter with SWF, Swashbuckler and Vanguard was much less effective than bard/rogue with SWF and Swashbuckler alone. Training dummy died in ~8 seconds to the bard/rogue v ~15 seconds to the bard/fighter.

Similar testing showed that paladin/fighter with THF and Vanguard yielded a similar DPS rate to the bard/rogue -- destroying the training dummy in ~9 seconds.

The point here is that what is allowed with respect to combining enhancements with feat lines and what is effective in producing DPS may well be two different things.

Now, that brings me to the matter of allowing IC:Bludgeon to work with shields. I do not believe that the response from Severlin has much merit. To begin with, the update is geared primarily to a rebalance that makes traditional melee builds more competitive -- this means fighters and paladins for the most part. Next, fighters in particular have an over abundance of feats available to them. Thirdly, nothing prohibits characters from having multiple IC feats.

My argument would be, if a player chooses to spend the feats for it, that they should be allowed to choose IC:Bludgeon in order to boost shield damage and this is entirely separate from whatever decision they make regarding their main-hand weapon.

Taken a different way, if I chose TWF and fought with a slashing weapon in one hand and a blunt weapon in the other wouldn't IC:Slash apply to damage done with the one weapon and IC:Bludgeon to the damage of the other? Don't each of them benefit separately based on their damage type? If that is the case with TWF then why should it not be the case with S&B?

Now, from a developer perspective the answer might be in the coding which treats the shield bashes differently than the off-hand attacks of TWF. While the TWF coding might recognize the IC feats separately for each hand, it could be that the S&B coding does not. This might explain the statement that IC:Bludgeon would force blunt weapons.

But, even if that were true, it might be greater overall damage and so players should be permitted that choice. That is, IC:Bludgeon applied to both shield and main weapon might be more damage than IC:Slash applied to main weapon only. I don't know that it would be but I would argue that players ought to at least be free to choose for themselves.

OTOH, I think the proper way to code would be to treat the shield bashes as separate events unrelated to the main hand weapon with the appropriate feats applying separately and individually. This would eventually permit interesting options in loot development such as spiked bucklers that deal pierce and bludgeon type damage and benefit from either of IC:Pierce or IC:Bludgeon.

Nonetheless, Severlin's answer did not make sense when it was given and does not make sense now -- unless it means that the code simply cannot distinguish between main hand damage type and shield damage type. And, if that is what is meant then I have to continue my disdain for the competency of DDO's developers.

psymun
09-16-2014, 12:20 PM
Have we confirmed that Damage Reduction is supposed to be applied AFTER PRR?
- Currently on Lammania, if you check the combat logs, Damage Reduction is being applied AFTER damage is reduced by PRR. If this is WAI, that's awesome, I just want to make sure that this is true before I make plans to transform my character into a S&B.

-Avalon-
09-16-2014, 01:02 PM
Acrobat Shadow Dodge. But yeah, PM Cloak of Night is a terrible design.

Well, that only subtracts 30 from fort, while that's not so nice, there are so many ways to get Fortification... the other night I was tinkering around and accidentally got 250% fort... so -30% is not really that big of a deal, but still, not a nice thing to do. When you are told that for being in undead form, you will take (at the least) 200% light damage, and your only method for survival is negative energy lol... then looking at all those +10/20/30 Heal Amps, feats, enhancements, etc etc... and realizing you don't have a single one for Negative... then seeing no items to help out either.

Then, you find an enhancement called Cloak of Night... well, Mabar is the Endless Night and we all know that is when undead get their largest bump in strength, right? But the enhancement costs 3 AP and Spell Points to turn it on, has a really cool graphical effect that makes you look EVIL! But, it actually lessens the effectiveness of negative energy by 50%?!? That's just a major kick to the crotch!


Can somebody please address the current state of this crippling bug?

Yes, PLEASE, PMs suffer enough setbacks that they have to overcome... MRR further reducing their ability to self-heal will pretty much just kill them off for the most part.

Singular
09-17-2014, 01:23 AM
The cooldown on the Cannith Propulsion Boots is to prevent quests from breaking, and to prevent people from doing a "double jump" using other methods like Abundant Step. No character should ever be able to use two "jump"-style effects one after the other, as it breaks content and causes significant exploits.

While I agree that content should not be exploited, the change to an item - boots - is lore breaking. Why on earth would an item share a cool down with a divinely given power (for fvs), lifelong training (monks), mastery of the elements (air savants) and nature (druids)?

If you're going to make this change, please rename the boots to "Divine/ki/air elemental/nature boots of propulsion."

Thanks.

Powskier
09-17-2014, 01:45 AM
this dam int bonus getting xtra.5 is strange...why do all the changes seem to coorespond with being beneficial to mages or nerfing non-mages??? not everyone plays a freakin mage..be fair!

Scrabbler
09-17-2014, 03:25 AM
While I agree that content should not be exploited, the change to an item - boots - is lore breaking. Why on earth would an item share a cool down with a divinely given power (for fvs), lifelong training (monks), mastery of the elements (air savants) and nature (druids)?
Because reaching down to push the boot button takes you out of the pose needed to jump on your own.

Therigar
09-17-2014, 09:52 AM
While I agree that content should not be exploited, the change to an item - boots - is lore breaking. Why on earth would an item share a cool down with a divinely given power (for fvs), lifelong training (monks), mastery of the elements (air savants) and nature (druids)?

Because reaching down to push the boot button takes you out of the pose needed to jump on your own.

Maybe, but more reasonably it is because magical and mechanical items mimic the abilities that come from divinities, training, mastery or nature. In doing so the item shares many of the attributes of the ability it mimics. Reasonably and lore enhancing are things like timers which represent how long it actually takes to physically and/or mentally recover from an event. It also explains why the cool down can be different since an item might need to reabsorb magical energies or recharge mechanical batteries before before reuse, gods could be occupied with other concerns, training may require time to refocus, mastery possibly drew on all of the elements immediately available or nature might simply be ambivalent or dependent on the repeating circle of life.

From a lore perspective there is nothing to argue that timers and cool downs should be the same and nothing to argue that they should not. That means it is up to the DM to establish how things work within their version of the multiverse. And, because Turbine is our DM that means if they want the timers to be the same and the cool downs to be different then that is not lore breaking but lore enhancing and lore building.

Scrabbler
09-17-2014, 11:24 AM
What's the current plan for combining SWF, THF, THF, and Shield Mastery feats?

Is each series anti-requisites of the others, or what?

Zurrander
09-17-2014, 11:42 AM
What's the current plan for combining SWF, THF, THF, and Shield Mastery feats?

Is each series anti-requisites of the others, or what?

I don't think that THF & Shield Mastery will ever become Anti-Requisites (otherwise they should stop Bastard Sword/DWA form getting Glancing blows)... and TWF is already useless when combined with any other Feat line. So the question is, how will SWF & THF / Shield Mastery work together. IF they they make it so that SWF & THF are anti requests then BS & DWA will be the only weapons to suffer, and considering that they already require a feat to use that would be pointless. So we are left with SWF & Shield Mastery, which is only a problem because of Swashbuckler, so there are many possible solutions to that issue.

1. Stop Bucklers form counting as "Shields" for the purpose of Shield Mastery.
2. Stop SWF's damage Boost form stacking with Shield Mastery's Damage Boost . (this could be done by giving SWF a Melee power boost instead of a stat boost, or Vice versa)
3. Make Swashbuckler or SWF the anti-requisite to Shield Mastery (as you suggested)

Honestly, the 10 Melee power given by Shield mastery wouldn't be such an issue if Swashbuckler's weren't already so OP... maybe the Dev's could just nerf Swashbuckler instead?

Scrabbler
09-17-2014, 12:18 PM
IF they they make it so that SWF & THF are anti requests then BS & DWA will be the only weapons to suffer, and considering that they already require a feat to use that would be pointless.
Pointless? It seems troubling if one Fighter has Greataxe for 1d12 17-20x3 PA+10 100% speed, and the other has Dwarf Axe 1d10 17-20x3 PA+5 130% speed. That extra 30% speed would far outweigh the few damage bonuses of the Greataxe.

I had heard SWF and THF would be disallowed from one character at the same time, and I'm wondering if that actually happened.

Zurrander
09-17-2014, 12:36 PM
Pointless? It seems troubling if one Fighter has Greataxe for 1d12 17-20x3 PA+10 100% speed, and the other has Dwarf Axe 1d10 17-20x3 PA+5 130% speed. That extra 30% speed would far outweigh the few damage bonuses of the Greataxe.

I had heard SWF and THF would be disallowed from one character at the same time, and I'm wondering if that actually happened.

Hmmm... I hadn't thought about that, very good point. It seems like SWF is the common denominator of all of these issues, so maybe it should be made the Anti-Requisite of all other Fighting style feats?

Nascoe
09-17-2014, 03:42 PM
I don't think that THF & Shield Mastery will ever become Anti-Requisites (otherwise they should stop Bastard Sword/DWA form getting Glancing blows)... and TWF is already useless when combined with any other Feat line. So the question is, how will SWF & THF / Shield Mastery work together. IF they they make it so that SWF & THF are anti requests then BS & DWA will be the only weapons to suffer, and considering that they already require a feat to use that would be pointless. So we are left with SWF & Shield Mastery, which is only a problem because of Swashbuckler, so there are many possible solutions to that issue.

1. Stop Bucklers form counting as "Shields" for the purpose of Shield Mastery.
2. Stop SWF's damage Boost form stacking with Shield Mastery's Damage Boost . (this could be done by giving SWF a Melee power boost instead of a stat boost, or Vice versa)
3. Make Swashbuckler or SWF the anti-requisite to Shield Mastery (as you suggested)

Honestly, the 10 Melee power given by Shield mastery wouldn't be such an issue if Swashbuckler's weren't already so OP... maybe the Dev's could just nerf Swashbuckler instead?

Since Melee Power from SWF won't stack with SM anyway its a moot point. It leaves only the already existing synergy

Zurrander
09-17-2014, 04:37 PM
I totally forgot about the devs giving SWF 10 melee power in place of 25% stat mod. Well I guess that's that, with the exception of a the SWF & THF thing... But I'm much more interested in seeing what becomes of Vanguard... the fact that Shield Charge is loosing its CC is gonna hurt Defenders (and they were the whole reason that Vanguard was made).

Aletys
09-18-2014, 07:56 AM
Not sure if this is the correct place to post this, but I'm not finding the original thread for the new CC loot. As far as the spyglass is concerned, I'd much prefer that the level 24 spyglass have Disable Device +20 instead of Open +20, as trappers disable traps far more often than they open doors/containers. I can always swap in an open item on the few occasions when I need it, but having to swap in a disable item almost continuously in some dungeons is a royal pain. Of course, having the option to select a spyglass with either the disable device or open on it would be really, really nice. If we can only get one, though, I vote for disable device.

Bridge_Dweller
09-18-2014, 08:08 AM
Can we haz more Lamania this weekend?

Eth
09-18-2014, 04:55 PM
Lamma is still up ;)

LXP
09-19-2014, 03:02 AM
Eldritch Card Crunchers can no longer be put into the Classic D&D Anniversary Bag, but can be placed into banks.

Why that?

Erofen
09-19-2014, 07:38 AM
Why that?
so you can't dupe the cruncher and do naughty things. :p

MangLord
09-20-2014, 02:04 PM
Honestly, I'm not mad at the idea for each fighting style to be exclusive of one another and lock out the other options. Selecting THF should lock out any feats related to SWF, TWF and SnB/shield related feats. It would solve a lot of grief. As far at the exotics, SnB with a bastard sword or dwarven axe will still produce grazing hits, but we should not be able to capitalize on THF feats to enhance it because it's not technically a two hander. That's just an exploit that has gone unchecked, and now players just assume its supposed to be that way, when it's really up to the DM to decide what the house rules are, and they're always subject to change which is what happens constantly in DDO. We all somehow survive for better or worse.

I just TRed into a bard, and so far I'm really enjoying it. I can't see how that's a bad thing. Why do we play this game other than to enjoy ourselves? I just wish that every class was this fun to play.

So far I see the adjustments being for the better, overall, but the dev team does seem to be holding back for some reason, despite the fact that shield usage has performed terribly in the past and it needs a lot of attention. I did feel like Harper INT for melee was a bit too much of low lying fruit, even being a premium tree that should be stronger than f2p fare. (with that logic, us folks that paid money for artificer and druid could use an extra tree to get a little more mileage/variety out of our purchases) Not that I want to see raids full of paladins and SnB, but it would be nice to accept a pure paladin or fighter without any reservations on whether they'll be an asset or a liability. It sure beats the situation a year ago where epic raids consisted of monk, more monk, and monk splashes with the odd pale master or sorcerer. I would consider the game to be successful when I can join a PUG raid and see a variety of magic using and fighting styles represented without stereotyping one style as gimped.

MangLord
09-20-2014, 02:05 PM
Is TWF stuck with no melee power still? It seems like a big oversight to leave it as is.

atraice
09-20-2014, 02:39 PM
The cooldown on the Cannith Propulsion Boots is to prevent quests from breaking, and to prevent people from doing a "double jump" using other methods like Abundant Step. No character should ever be able to use two "jump"-style effects one after the other, as it breaks content and causes significant exploits.

I suppose it would be too much to ask you being Turbine and it's R&D to do something productive like fix the quest rather than being a bunch of joy-less cretins who want to just ruin every other aspect of the game.
You're the kind of mentality that is okay with the neighborhood burning down as long as the firetruck puts out your house.

And you wonder why you're losing customer base?

Scrabbler
09-20-2014, 05:57 PM
Is TWF stuck with no melee power still? It seems like a big oversight to leave it as is.
Why would it be an oversight for TWF to not have Meleepower? Which other style would you say should have 0 Meleepower instead?

LXP
09-21-2014, 05:57 AM
I suppose it would be too much to ask you being Turbine and it's R&D to do something productive like fix the quest rather than being a bunch of joy-less cretins who want to just ruin every other aspect of the game.
You're the kind of mentality that is okay with the neighborhood burning down as long as the firetruck puts out your house.

And you wonder why you're losing customer base?

IF there is a loss in customer base, it would be caused by rude and offending communication and/or behaviour like you demonstrated with your post, atraice.

It would be caused by people with bad manners who can't make their point without getting offensive; by people who lose their mind (if applicable) if they can't have everyting their way and to their advantage, and who even have to rely on obviously fake accounts to harass people who want to contribute in a more productive way.

Hopefully, your comment about the loss in customer base was refering to yourself. Reported.

MangLord
09-22-2014, 12:46 AM
Why would it be an oversight for TWF to not have Meleepower? Which other style would you say should have 0 Meleepower instead?

All fighting styles should get some level of melee power, except perhaps unarmed and animal forms, since Shintao is already so strong with ki strikes, stances and foolproof stunning, and druids get significant attack speed boosts, or the option to focus on casting and get awesome SLAs. You can't honestly say that a Tempest is blasting through enemies without relying on vorpal instakills. Tempest is super weak in part because of the tree, but also that TWF doesn't benefit or synergize with ED trees nearly as much as THF or SWF. (with THF and SWF, you benefit from your fighting style choice by applying bonus damage -2x Power Attack damage or +200% ability score modifier- to abilities such as cleave and momentum swing, while TWF only uses the raw weapon in your main hand, ignoring the feat investment in additional offhand procs, so essentially these abilities activate as if you were only wielding one weapon without the benefit of three invested feats.) Even with Assassin dagger bonuses, rogue DPS isn't fantastic in epic, and the heavy population of undead and constructs doesn't help. Not to say that an assassin can't be an asset to the party, but it's certainly no Sorcerer or Swashbuckler in terms of taking enemies down, especially when you consider that assassins need to jump back into sneak mode to use assassinate, and hope they didn't grab any aggro along the way. Vorpals are all well and good for heroics, but once you hit epic, a pair of banishing/smiting/disruption/vorpal scimitars get way less effective.

I'm not saying that TWF should get the same level of melee power that THF or SWF gets, because clearly a greataxe is going to hit a lot harder than a shortsword, and SWF needs some oomph to maintain itself as a viable DPS option. TWF is going to go extinct with the other two desirable fighting styles getting even stronger. I'm very happy to see THF looking like the best for raw damage, but SWF isn't too far behind. There's no reason to TWF with light weapons when you can SWF and deal much more damage, or splash in 5 levels of bard and really annihilate with swashbuckling boosts. I really like that sneak attack damage will scale with melee power, but why on earth would a rogue choose TWF when they can increase their SA damage with SWF, and not benefit at all from TWF? TWF seems to be the archetypical rogue/assassin style, so I find it odd. Especially when the devs talk of maintaining the sword and shield archetype by choosing not to include shields in Imp Crit:Bludgeon feat.

What I'd suggest is a light buff, such as 0/5/10 or even 5/10/15 for TWF/ImpTWF/GreaterTWF, because I think it's perfectly obvious that you will never see another TWF build once this next update hits. TWF is ok in the current game state, but it won't even compare to SnB when the update hits. There will be no reason except for flavor purposes to intentionally gimp yourself with TWF when SWF costs just as many feats and provides a much larger return on investment. I don't think this is unreasonable, just overlooked because it's too much work to adjust TWF to work differently for unarmed/animal and melee builds. Rogues will always opt for SWF from now on, and Tempest will be completely extinct.

Please give me maths to prove me wrong. They just aren't there. At best, TWF vorpal procs are slightly >10% of the time, and an extra 5% chance to do 150 damage doesn't add up to what a melee character is capable of sustaining reliably with SWF and THF, especially when you consider that Perfect SWF essentially trumps TWF with the 19-20 vorpal range, a more reliable 10% vorpal hit than 90% proc on offhand with Perfect TWF, in addition to the bonus stat damage and upcoming melee power buff, not to mention the Swash doublestrike boosts. There's been so many times I've played a TWF build and really needed a 20 roll and only got it when the enemy was almost dead anyways. Any way you slice it, TWF is already lagging behind and it's about to look even worse unless it gains some melee power.

Therigar
09-22-2014, 02:13 PM
TWF is going to go extinct with the other two desirable fighting styles getting even stronger.

<snip>

Please give me maths to prove me wrong.

I think you are wrong. I think it is because of your approach to the problem. Maths are only valuable when talking theory and are only useful if every character in the game is geared and built to match the theoretical outcome.

The reality is vastly different from the maths. Characters at different stages of development and with different access to gear -- not to mention following different builds -- will not all see, or even come close, to the optimal numbers. The result is that even legitimate critiques based on maths end up being of only limited value in practice.

Having tested SWF and TWF using identical builds I found TWF actually was the most effective fighting style. Against the training dummy TWF took ~11 seconds v ~15 seconds for SWF and ~14 seconds for S&B. My expectation is that players will see similar results in game so that TWF will be viewed as remaining competitive with the other combat styles.

This might not hold true for the absolute upper echelon of players and builds, but I strongly suspect that it will hold true for the vast majority of players.

Scrabbler
09-22-2014, 03:09 PM
All fighting styles should get some level of melee power, except perhaps unarmed and animal forms, since Shintao is already so strong with ki strikes, stances and foolproof stunning, and druids get significant attack speed boosts, or the option to focus on casting and get awesome SLAs.
If all fighting styles should get melee power, then melee power should simply be granted alongside your weapon proficiency, your BAB, or otherwise given to anyone, instead of attaching it to all styles separately. Since Shintao and Druid both use TWF, adding meleepower to TWF feats wouldn't prevent Shintao and Druid from getting it.

irnimnode
09-22-2014, 06:00 PM
how long will the world be down? just got back online yesterday moved from Kansas to Ohio finally got my internet hooked up and got on for the first time sense May

Emerld
09-24-2014, 06:59 AM
Sorry for this question being late or if it was answered before, I did not see it mentioned. I just watched the live video discussing the harper and vanguard trees. You mentioned in the video that the vanguard was going to be available for a paladin and fighter class. If your character is built with both classes, will you be able to take the enhancements in each class and they stack together? So I can build in paladin tree version and fighter tree version?

-Avalon-
09-24-2014, 07:28 AM
Sorry for this question being late or if it was answered before, I did not see it mentioned. I just watched the live video discussing the harper and vanguard trees. You mentioned in the video that the vanguard was going to be available for a paladin and fighter class. If your character is built with both classes, will you be able to take the enhancements in each class and they stack together? So I can build in paladin tree version and fighter tree version?

If you build a Wizard/Sorcerer, can you take the Eldritch Knight enhancements from both and do they stack? This would probably answer your question, I don't know the answer, but this would probably give you you what you want to know...

tfc_generalKMK
09-24-2014, 08:14 AM
If you build a Wizard/Sorcerer, can you take the Eldritch Knight enhancements from both and do they stack? This would probably answer your question, I don't know the answer, but this would probably give you you what you want to know...

i think having the class just grants you access to the vanguard enhancement tree i don't think you'd see 2 copies of the tree

depositbox
09-24-2014, 08:26 AM
Sorry for this question being late or if it was answered before, I did not see it mentioned. I just watched the live video discussing the harper and vanguard trees. You mentioned in the video that the vanguard was going to be available for a paladin and fighter class. If your character is built with both classes, will you be able to take the enhancements in each class and they stack together? So I can build in paladin tree version and fighter tree version?

I can't prove that the same trees stack. But both trees will show up and spending ap in both is allowed.

-Avalon-
09-24-2014, 02:32 PM
i think having the class just grants you access to the vanguard enhancement tree i don't think you'd see 2 copies of the tree

Right, I understand... what I am saying is that currently, on live, we have something similar with EK tree. Build a BF with Adamantine Body, 1 Paladin/7 Wizard/7 Sorc; buy the second core enhancement from EK for Wizard, and second core from EK for Sorc (both trees should show up, and you should be able to buy from both)... if you are granted -5% Arcane Spell Failure from each, and they stack, then you should get -10% ASF on spells (on a BF that will show up as going from 35% Spell Failure for Adamantine Body, down to 24%, odd I realize, but somehow on WF/BF you get a free -1% ASF somewhere in the works as soon as you get 5% ASF reduction, effectively giving 6% in reality)

So, easy check, do you have 29% failure listed on spells, or 24%? 29% would indicate that similar trees do not allow stacking... 24% would indicate that they do. In fact, I think I will go test this... could potentially be some cool build possibilities there...

Nascoe
09-25-2014, 05:17 AM
Right, I understand... what I am saying is that currently, on live, we have something similar with EK tree. Build a BF with Adamantine Body, 1 Paladin/7 Wizard/7 Sorc; buy the second core enhancement from EK for Wizard, and second core from EK for Sorc (both trees should show up, and you should be able to buy from both)

So, easy check, do you have 29% failure listed on spells, or 24%? 29% would indicate that similar trees do not allow stacking... 24% would indicate that they do. In fact, I think I will go test this... could potentially be some cool build possibilities there...

I tried just that a moment ago, and it did not let me put any AP into the wizard EK tree once I had put some into the Sorc EK tree. So I would guess that they are exclusive. Probably then the same would be the case for Vanguard trees.

Therigar
09-25-2014, 06:36 AM
I tried just that a moment ago, and it did not let me put any AP into the wizard EK tree once I had put some into the Sorc EK tree. So I would guess that they are exclusive. Probably then the same would be the case for Vanguard trees.

Unless things change on live, the answer has already been posted:


I can't prove that the same trees stack. But both trees will show up and spending ap in both is allowed.

If you have a paladin/fighter character the Vanguard enhancement will be available from both classes. You can spend AP in each tree. You can select the same enhancements.

Lama is down or we could go look to see if there is any clear indicator that the duplicates stack. It would be a mistake to assume either point of view -- that they do or that they do not stack -- without testing the Vanguard trees specifically.

Of course, a response from Turbine would clear that up. But, that is too much to expect.

Cordovan
09-25-2014, 10:49 AM
Unless things change on live, the answer has already been posted:



If you have a paladin/fighter character the Vanguard enhancement will be available from both classes. You can spend AP in each tree. You can select the same enhancements.

Lama is down or we could go look to see if there is any clear indicator that the duplicates stack. It would be a mistake to assume either point of view -- that they do or that they do not stack -- without testing the Vanguard trees specifically.

Of course, a response from Turbine would clear that up. But, that is too much to expect.

I just went onto Lamannia (yes, I can still access Lamannia), and checked. I took a level of fighter, then a level of paladin. Initially, the Vanguard (Ftr) was in the UI panel, and I had to use the drop-down arrow to add the Vanguard (Pal). Once I spent a point in the Vanguard (Pal), I was not able to spend any points in Vanguard (Ftr); while the "glowy" outline appeared for the first Innate enhancement, I could not actually spend any points in it. Additionally, once I clicked "Accept", the "glowy" option disappeared for the other Vanguard tree, and it was also not possible to spend points in Vanguard (Ftr).

G_Lich
09-25-2014, 11:08 AM
Tell devs good luck as they plug away at bugs... looking forward to it. In the meantime could my post on Seraphim in the u23 item feedback get looked at? It's just one item but I feel its comparatively underpowered for the class of items it is competing against... for the class it is intended for no less.

Feedback #2 on Seraphim/Turn Undead (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447270-U23-Items-Feedback-thread?p=5433668&viewfull=1#post5433668)

Vargouille
09-25-2014, 11:56 AM
As a general rule, you are only intended to use one version of an enhancement tree, and should not be able to spend points in more than one. This applies to trees available to multiple classes such as Warpriest, Eldritch Knight, and Vanguard.

Zurrander
09-26-2014, 12:02 PM
Well, the updates coming out first thing Monday (9/29/14)... I was really hoping that we would get a final look before it went live, but i guess we'll just have to deal with the bugs & such until the devs decide to patch them. I had high hopes for the updated KOTC/Defender/Vanguard trees, mostly based on the epicness that Bards revived in the last major update, but i guess I greatly overestimated the devs love the the paladin class (maybe i should play a bard?). But I'm still hopeful for the overhaul of the Barbarian class, if i'm lucky my barb toon might come out comparable to a bard... I'm also not looking forward to the inevitable Holy Sword Nerf that will put Paladins back at the bottom on the DPS pile. Its just bad design to have so much of a toons damage depend on a single ability.

Jappy
09-28-2014, 06:45 PM
when will lammina be back up I cant wait for it?

taospark
09-29-2014, 03:26 AM
Will a fix for MRR decreasing negative energy/Palemaster healing make it into a hotfix or later patch?

Therigar
09-29-2014, 07:01 AM
Will a fix for MRR decreasing negative energy/Palemaster healing make it into a hotfix or later patch?

Bigger question is whether it SHOULD be fixed/patched. MRR is mostly a function of armor and/or shield and arcanes typically are not intended to wear armor and/or shields. That magic is absorbed by the physical object provides a rational explanation for why negative energy/Palemaster healing ought to be decreased -- and thus that no fix/patch should be made.

One could almost argue that in a way similar to reducing arcane spell failure via feats, enhancements and construction materials that the way to reduce MRR effects on negative energy/Palemaster healing is to introduce feats, enhancements or gear types that reduce/negate the MRR. Whether that is universal or specific only to negative energy might depend on the perceived purpose behind the discovery/development of such feats/enhancements/gear -- think of it in the grand story-line sense of what motivated Uber the Marvelous to find away around MRR.

It might also come with consequences -- the reduced MRR that increases (or restores, depending on POV) negative energy/Palemaster healing might also make a character more susceptible to negative energy damage when NOT in undead form -- a nasty combination for some mob that spams light damage against undead and negative energy against the living. :D

Of course, we don't really want the game to have realistic consequences to our build choices -- so go ahead and stand in your own firewall/ice storm/wear plate armor with shield while in Palemaster and have MRR apply only to mob spells. Hey, it is DDO and not real life. ;)

Steelstar
09-29-2014, 07:10 AM
Will a fix for MRR decreasing negative energy/Palemaster healing make it into a hotfix or later patch?

This was fixed for U23, should be present when Live comes back up today.

Therigar
09-29-2014, 03:04 PM
This was fixed for U23, should be present when Live comes back up today.

You had to ruin all my fun. :mad: :( :D

Zurrander
09-29-2014, 10:44 PM
So.. No Heart of Wood with the update? considering that this update killed all evasion splashes the least you could do is a lesser reincarnation (+2 would do "to drop the two monk or rouge levels"). Now that mid-high MRR beats out evasion in every dimension of magical defense there is absolutely no reason to splash for it (which i guess was the point of this update). Of course there is always no fail evasion, but considering the investment needed vs. the total lack of investment involved in gaining high MRR it's seems like a silly choice (even for a flavor player like me). I don't really see what was wrong with evasion tanks remaining the premier magical defense experts, but whatever. My new toon's got double PRR and near double the AC of my old evasion tank, topped of with enough MRR and High saves to solo an ancient dragon and take 0 magic damage after resist acid (with little physical damage either, requiring no healing what so ever). My evasion tank barely get through that same boss with a hireling. But don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining I just want to get ride of my now useless monk levels. And congrats, you've made a pure pally out of me!

taospark
10-04-2014, 11:53 PM
This was fixed for U23, should be present when Live comes back up today.

Neat. Thanks muchly, Steelstar.

MangLord
10-05-2014, 02:51 AM
Bigger question is whether it SHOULD be fixed/patched. MRR is mostly a function of armor and/or shield and arcanes typically are not intended to wear armor and/or shields. That magic is absorbed by the physical object provides a rational explanation for why negative energy/Palemaster healing ought to be decreased -- and thus that no fix/patch should be made.

One could almost argue that in a way similar to reducing arcane spell failure via feats, enhancements and construction materials that the way to reduce MRR effects on negative energy/Palemaster healing is to introduce feats, enhancements or gear types that reduce/negate the MRR. Whether that is universal or specific only to negative energy might depend on the perceived purpose behind the discovery/development of such feats/enhancements/gear -- think of it in the grand story-line sense of what motivated Uber the Marvelous to find away around MRR.

It might also come with consequences -- the reduced MRR that increases (or restores, depending on POV) negative energy/Palemaster healing might also make a character more susceptible to negative energy damage when NOT in undead form -- a nasty combination for some mob that spams light damage against undead and negative energy against the living. :D

Of course, we don't really want the game to have realistic consequences to our build choices -- so go ahead and stand in your own firewall/ice storm/wear plate armor with shield while in Palemaster and have MRR apply only to mob spells. Hey, it is DDO and not real life. ;)

These are very good points. I don't see much issue with MRR counteracting negative healing, given that wizards aren't really supposed to wear armor. Eldritch knight is the exception, I guess, but MRR creates a counterbalance that sacrifices some defensive aspects for others. I know its almost become counter-intuitive to build a DDO character that's not a one-man army with no limitations, but I was recently a pure drow pale master with robes and scepters, and she was certainly a force to be reckoned with. I guess people would be complaining about not being centered or able to evade while wearing heavy armor if they'd gotten accustomed to that instead.