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domandi
09-07-2014, 02:12 PM
AP's aside, how will the new tree affect your weapon choice? Will daggers still be the go to for most damage?

Would it be worth it to consider kopeshes again?

I am not much of a number cruncher, but I am very interested in this.

Let's assume lvl 28, max int, overwhelming crit...

I would love to know peoples opinions.

Saekee
09-07-2014, 02:40 PM
AP's aside, how will the new tree affect your weapon choice? Will daggers still be the go to for most damage?

Would it be worth it to consider kopeshes again?

I am not much of a number cruncher, but I am very interested in this.

Let's assume lvl 28, max int, overwhelming crit...

I would love to know peoples opinions.

Assuming the usual IC: Relevant for weapon, the knife specialization makes daggers and kukris 15-20/3; Khopeshes are 17-20/3. So no contest, unless I am missing something? The only difference is if the tier 5 is being used elsewhere, such as with a splash.

CThruTheEgo
09-07-2014, 03:50 PM
What Saekee said, 100%. Knife specialization makes daggers the optimal dps weapon choice for an assassin.

Shadow_Jumper
09-14-2014, 10:04 AM
It probably will not affect my weapon choice, just my damage output, as my INT is about 20-25 points higher than my DEX.

nokowi
09-14-2014, 08:04 PM
AP's aside, how will the new tree affect your weapon choice? Will daggers still be the go to for most damage?

Would it be worth it to consider kopeshes again?

I am not much of a number cruncher, but I am very interested in this.

Let's assume lvl 28, max int, overwhelming crit...

I would love to know peoples opinions.

Khopesh seems to come out ahead by my calculations. Rogue/Wiz might also have some new and interesting melee combinations.


With Overwhelming Critical:
Int Khopesh beats Dex Dagger by 5%
Dex Dagger beats Int Rapier by 8%.

Without Overwhelming Critical:
Dex Dagger beats Int Khopesh by 3%.
Dex Dagger beats Int Rapier by 18%.

Keep in mind that Int build likely needs 2 extra feats (overwhelming critical, insightful reflexes) and ~12 AP from the Harper Tree. Dex builds may still come out ahead if you consider what they can do with the 2 extra feats and AP.


To see why, look at the base weapon damage and how often (criticals/overwhelming criticals) happen to calculate damage:

khopesh (4.5 average damage)
0.05 (miss)
0.75 (hit but no crit)
0.10 (17-18 crit for x3 damage)
0.10 (19-20 crit for x4 damage)

rapier (3.5 average damage)
0.05 (miss)
0.65 (hit but no crit)
0.20 (15-18 crit for x2 damage)
0.10 (19-20 crit for x3 damage)

dagger (2.5 average damage)
0.05 (miss)
0.65 (hit but no crit)
0.30 (15-20 crit for x3 damage)

Tier 3 Thunderforged Khopesh with Int Damage & Overwhelming Critical
(4.5 weapon mult)*(4.5 avg damage) + 12 (enhancement) + (28 Int statmod) = 60.25 base damage
0.05*0
0.75*60.25
0.10*60.25*3
0.10*60.25*4
This can be simplified to 60.25*(1.45) = 87.4 damage

Tier 3 Thunderforged Rapier with Int Damage & Overwhelming Critical
(4.5 weapon mult)*(3.5 avg damage) + 12 (enhancement) + (28 Int statmod) = 55.75 base damage
0.05*0
0.65*55.75
0.20*55.75*2
0.10*55.75*3
This can be simplified to 55.75*(1.35) = 75.3 damage

Tier 3 Thunderforged Dagger with Dex Damage
(4.5 weapon mult)*(2.5 avg damage) + 12 (enhancement) + (28 Dex statmod) = 51.25 base damage
0.05*0
0.65*51.25
0.30*51.25*3
This can be simplified to 51.25*(1.55) = 79.4 damage

It seems like Khopesh does about 10% more damage than Dagger but effects like deadly and seeker are added before the threat multiplier. Let's add Deadly 10 and Seeker 10:


Tier 3 Thunderforged Khopesh with Deadly 10 & Seeker 10
(4.5 weapon mult)*(4.5 avg damage) + 12 (enhancement) + (28 Int statmod) +10 (Deadly) = 70.25 base damage
0.05*0
0.75*70.25
0.10*(70.25+10)*3
0.10*(70.25+10)*4
= 108.9 damage

Tier 3 Thunderforged Rapier with Deadly 10 & Seeker 10
(4.5 weapon mult)*(3.5 avg damage) + 12 (enhancement) + (28 Int statmod) +10 (Deadly) = 65.75 base damage
0.05*0
0.65*65.75
0.20*(65.75+10)*2
0.10*(65.75+10)*3
=95.8 damage

Tier 3 Thunderforged Dagger with Deadly 10 & Seeker 10
(4.5 weapon mult)*(2.5 avg damage) + 12 (enhancement) + (28 Dex statmod) +10 Deadly = 61.25 base damage
0.05*0
0.65*61.25
0.30*(61.75+10)*3
=103.9 damage

Miow
09-14-2014, 08:50 PM
I will be using balizard with kukri more then likely

Scrabbler
09-14-2014, 10:44 PM
khopesh (4.5 average damage)
0.10 (17-18 crit for x3 damage)
0.10 (19-20 crit for x4 damage)

dagger (2.5 average damage)
0.30 (15-20 crit for x3 damage)
Why are you letting the Khopesh use Overwhelming Critical but not the Dagger? The khopesh guy is already down a feat to start with...

CThruTheEgo
09-14-2014, 11:05 PM
...maths...

Unless I'm missing something, you don't have overwhelming crit in any of your dagger calculations, even though you do include it for both khopesh and rapier.

With knife specialization, dagger and kukri will have a better crit profile than any other weapon type. So with all other factors being equal – deadly, seeker, stat damage mod, overwhelming crit, etc. – it's no contest. Even with lower base damage dice, the superior crit profile will always pull dagger/kukri ahead of other weapon choices.

Eth
09-15-2014, 03:23 AM
Even with lower base damage dice, the superior crit profile will always pull dagger/kukri ahead of other weapon choices.

So this is the best weapon then?
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sky_Pirate%27s_Dagger


More seriously:
TF Mortal fear dagger mainhand + Agony offhand sounds like a good combo.

CThruTheEgo
09-15-2014, 05:19 AM
So this is the best weapon then?
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sky_Pirate%27s_Dagger

Well, I was specifically comparing Thunderforged weapons. :P


More seriously:
TF Mortal fear dagger mainhand + Agony offhand sounds like a good combo.

This is exactly what I use.

nokowi
09-15-2014, 12:28 PM
Why are you letting the Khopesh use Overwhelming Critical but not the Dagger? The khopesh guy is already down a feat to start with...

I assumed it didn't stack (Dex already have a competance bonus to crit mult). If this is not true, someone let me know.

Scrabbler
09-15-2014, 12:56 PM
I assumed it didn't stack (Dex already have a competance bonus to crit mult). If this is not true, someone let me know.
What makes you think that Overwhelming Critical is a competence bonus?

nokowi
09-15-2014, 01:24 PM
What makes you think that Overwhelming Critical is a competence bonus?

I needed to make an assumption as to whether overwhelming critical stacked or not in order to do calculations. If it stacks let me know and I can recalculate.

CThruTheEgo
09-15-2014, 01:37 PM
I assumed it didn't stack (Dex already have a competance bonus to crit mult). If this is not true, someone let me know.

Overwhelming crit stacks with all enhancement and ED based crit multipliers, so yes, it should be included in the calcs for daggers.

nokowi
09-15-2014, 01:51 PM
Overwhelming crit stacks with all enhancement and ED based crit multipliers, so yes, it should be included in the calcs for daggers.

Thanks. I will recalculate in a few hours.

Saekee
09-15-2014, 02:06 PM
If one already has a pair of Balizardes, that is already 15-20/3 anyway. One could then take the tier 5 of Harper tree and get even more Deception. That might be interesting to calculate as well, assuming one has the AP to use there. Note also that the Harper tree includes continuous weapon buffs (the last time I checked, anyway).

I have none of this so just theorycrafting.

Finally, it may be worth calculating a drow dagger since its crit multiplier with knife specialization makes it 13-20/3 plus 19-20/4 with OC. I have one of those anyway. I know nothing can ultimately compete with the top tier of thunderforged gear but that stuff one uses at level 28.

CThruTheEgo
09-15-2014, 02:30 PM
If one already has a pair of Balizardes, that is already 15-20/3 anyway.

Comparing only CitW weapons, Agony has better base damage dice and better dps procs. So for strictly dps, Agony > Balizarde. Balizarde does have some nice defensive properties, but those are easily found elsewhere. If you have Balizarde and not Agony, I'd just use Balizarde while going for Thunderforged. But if you have the choice, I'd go for Agony.


One could then take the tier 5 of Harper tree and get even more Deception.

Tier 5 in harper means no assassinate, and a strictly dps rogue would probably be built much differently than an assassin.

CThruTheEgo
09-15-2014, 03:47 PM
I did the calcs for dagger with overwhelming crit and using all of nokowi's specifications above. It comes out to 111.1.

It's worth mentioning that these calculations don't account for proc effects, specifically dragon's edge which is the most obvious choice for an assassin because of the fort bypass. Dragon's edge procs on crit and will therefore favor a larger critical threat range (i.e. dagger and rapier). I don't know if it will bring rapier ahead of khopesh, but it will certainly pull dagger further ahead of khopesh.

nokowi
09-15-2014, 04:19 PM
Thanks. I will recalculate in a few hours.

Assuming Tier 3 Thunderforged 4.5mult +12 enhance +10 deadly 10 seeker

Khopesh/Keen/Overwhelming Critical/Int 66 108.9 dmg
Rapier/Keen/Overwhelming Critical/Int 66 88.2 dmg
Dagger/Keen/Knife Specialization/Overwhelming Critical/Dex 66 111.1 dmg
Dex build wins!
dmg = 68.3 + 1.45*IntMod Khopesh
dmg = 64.9 + 1.65*DexMod Dagger/Kukri


Conclusion:
Dex build wins assuming equal stats, although...
Deadly weapons makes Int Khopesh close to Daggers, although...
Good luck finding a good Improved Deception Khopesh! (Tier3/Agony wins!)

nokowi
09-15-2014, 04:39 PM
I did the calcs for dagger with overwhelming crit and using all of nokowi's specifications above. It comes out to 111.1.

It's worth mentioning that these calculations don't account for proc effects, specifically dragon's edge which is the most obvious choice for an assassin because of the fort bypass. Dragon's edge procs on crit and will therefore favor a larger critical threat range (i.e. dagger and rapier). I don't know if it will bring rapier ahead of khopesh, but it will certainly pull dagger further ahead of khopesh.

Dragons Edge will add an average of 69 damage on a crit, and 10% more often for rapier/daggers than khopesh.

4.5 mult, +12 enhance, deadly 10, seeker 10, Stat (Dex,Int)=66

(adding Dragons Edge)
Khopesh 122.7
Rapier 116.5
Dagger 131.8

(Dragons Edge + Deadly)
129.2
121.2
135.9

Dex wins again!

Nightmanis
09-15-2014, 05:21 PM
Overwhelming crit stacks with all enhancement and ED based crit multipliers, so yes, it should be included in the calcs for daggers.

I'm also wondering why he doesn't include INT daggers as well. Regardless, you'd use the same stat mod for both weapons to which again there is absolutely no contest on what would be better.

I can't really imagine a pure int based rogue dual wielder not taking assassinate, so it's a fair assumption to make that they would use knife spec as well.

CThruTheEgo
09-15-2014, 06:59 PM
Dex wins again!

No reason to assume that a dagger user won't also use int. I didn't bother pointing this out previously since you used the same stat mod for both int and dex. Int dagger with overwhelming crit is the clear winner for an assassin.

Thanks for doing the calcs nokowi.

nokowi
09-15-2014, 09:02 PM
No reason to assume that a dagger user won't also use int. I didn't bother pointing this out previously since you used the same stat mod for both int and dex. Int dagger with overwhelming crit is the clear winner for an assassin.

Thanks for doing the calcs nokowi.

Sure thing.

Stoner81
09-16-2014, 09:18 AM
The problem I am having is where to pull the AP's from in order to unlock the INT to damage from Harper since it requires 10 points, things are already stupidly tight and I just don't know where to pull stuff from at all.

Stoner81.

nokowi
09-16-2014, 10:07 AM
The problem I am having is where to pull the AP's from in order to unlock the INT to damage from Harper since it requires 10 points, things are already stupidly tight and I just don't know where to pull stuff from at all.

Stoner81.

While the Harper tree is powerful, you now have to choose between things that you want. This is exactly what I hope for the future of DDO, as people will come up with different choices.

I have about 42 AP in the assassin tree and 6 racial (Drow).

I am dropping my acrobat tree to just faster sneaking (and minimum pre-reqs). I will miss 30% Haste Boost (but this saves me 6 AP).

I am dropping +2 int from mechanic tree and a couple of pre-req points (possibly reducing from 6 AP to 4 AP for only +50% scroll heals).

This gives me about 12 points for the Harper Tree, with a net gain of +1 Int, a little bit of melee power, int to damage, and a few HP.

The +1 Int gain will allow me to grab overwhelming critical instead of +1 Int from one of my epic feats.

Overall, a great boost for Int builds!

Stoner81
09-16-2014, 06:21 PM
While the Harper tree is powerful, you now have to choose between things that you want. This is exactly what I hope for the future of DDO, as people will come up with different choices.

I have about 42 AP in the assassin tree and 6 racial (Drow).

I am dropping my acrobat tree to just faster sneaking (and minimum pre-reqs). I will miss 30% Haste Boost (but this saves me 6 AP).

I am dropping +2 int from mechanic tree and a couple of pre-req points (possibly reducing from 6 AP to 4 AP for only +50% scroll heals).

This gives me about 12 points for the Harper Tree, with a net gain of +1 Int, a little bit of melee power, int to damage, and a few HP.

The +1 Int gain will allow me to grab overwhelming critical instead of +1 Int from one of my epic feats.

Overall, a great boost for Int builds!

My heal scrolls are anaemic at best since they only hit me for like 274HP each and that's with a 30% Hamp item generally it is enough to keep me up right as long as I don't get really stupid which is pretty often lol, I might do the same with Haste Boost now that you mention it and see about keeping just my scrolls and see what that frees up.

Stoner81.

nokowi
09-17-2014, 08:34 AM
My heal scrolls are anaemic at best since they only hit me for like 274HP each and that's with a 30% Hamp item generally it is enough to keep me up right as long as I don't get really stupid which is pretty often lol, I might do the same with Haste Boost now that you mention it and see about keeping just my scrolls and see what that frees up.

Stoner81.

I downloaded Lamannia so I could play with build points.

My U22 build had 68 Int for a DC 74 assassinate.

Drow Tree (6 AP total)
4 core (getting +2 Int)

Assassin Tree (41 AP total)
All of the core, all of the sneak attack, x3 shiv, x3 bleed them out, +2 int, crit accuracy x3, crit damage x3, killer x3, execute, assassinate, x3 measure the foe, and knife specialization.

Acrobat Tree (Core 1, x3 faster sneaking) (4 AP total)

Harper Tree (16 AP total)
Core
Agent Of Good (1 AP)
Intelligence (2 AP)
Tier 1
Harper Enchantment (2 AP)
+10 HP (2 AP) ( or Strategic Combat I if I see myself missing for new content)
Tier 2
Versatile Adept I x3 (3 AP)
Tier 3
Strategic Combat II (2 AP)
+1 Int (2 AP)
Versatile Adept II x1 (1 AP)

Mechanic Tree (14 AP total)
Core 1, Mechanics x3, Awareness x1, Wand and scroll Mastery x3, Improved Traps x3

It would be possible to get 70 Int if I only took Improved Traps x2 and dropped the tier 3 Harper Versatile Adept II x1 (while adding +1 Int from the Mechanic Tree), but I want to take overwhelming critical as one of my epic feats. U23 build will still be DC 74 assassinate with 68 Int.

EDIT: I will take the extra +1 Int from Mechanic. I forgot I can add epic Sneak Attack now that I have a +6 Dex tome. My U23 epic feats (20,24,27) will be Overwhelming Critical, Epic Sneak Attack, and +1 Int. Int=68


Let me know what some of you are planning on doing.

-Noko

Nightmanis
09-17-2014, 04:52 PM
My heal scrolls are anaemic at best since they only hit me for like 274HP each and that's with a 30% Hamp item generally it is enough to keep me up right as long as I don't get really stupid which is pretty often lol, I might do the same with Haste Boost now that you mention it and see about keeping just my scrolls and see what that frees up.

Stoner81.

Make a GS hamp stick. You can set up a weapon set of a scroll and the hamp stick, cast the scroll and have a full 10/20/30 heal amp when you use it. With pally past lives and (if you're human) a tier of heal amp or 2 you can make them hit for right about 500. Mine hit for 430 on my fighter cleric, and he doesn't have any pally past lives or the third tier human hamp.

Stoner81
09-18-2014, 01:19 PM
Make a GS hamp stick. You can set up a weapon set of a scroll and the hamp stick, cast the scroll and have a full 10/20/30 heal amp when you use it. With pally past lives and (if you're human) a tier of heal amp or 2 you can make them hit for right about 500. Mine hit for 430 on my fighter cleric, and he doesn't have any pally past lives or the third tier human hamp.

I might just have to do that, my Rogue is a Halfling so no racial healing amp so I am limited to just the gloves from 3BC, she has no Pally past lives either which makes things even worse.

Stoner81.

nokowi
09-18-2014, 04:46 PM
Make a GS hamp stick. You can set up a weapon set of a scroll and the hamp stick, cast the scroll and have a full 10/20/30 heal amp when you use it. With pally past lives and (if you're human) a tier of heal amp or 2 you can make them hit for right about 500. Mine hit for 430 on my fighter cleric, and he doesn't have any pally past lives or the third tier human hamp.

Great tip. I'm not sure why I never thought of this...

Saekee
09-18-2014, 06:41 PM
Make a GS hamp stick. You can set up a weapon set of a scroll and the hamp stick, cast the scroll and have a full 10/20/30 heal amp when you use it. With pally past lives and (if you're human) a tier of heal amp or 2 you can make them hit for right about 500. Mine hit for 430 on my fighter cleric, and he doesn't have any pally past lives or the third tier human hamp.

Just to clarify--Nightmanis is suggesting to make it a 20% healing amp stick to stack with the 10% and 30%. Some readers may not realize that though vets are obviously aware.

Arkantios
09-18-2014, 06:57 PM
Is it just me or has nobody done calculations for Int daggers with the harper divine might thing for int. So..an extra half int mod to damage..

CThruTheEgo
09-18-2014, 07:21 PM
Is it just me or has nobody done calculations for Int daggers with the harper divine might thing for int. So..an extra half int mod to damage..

Well if you're looking for damage comparisons to see which weapon is better, then this won't make a difference, daggers will still lead. But if you just want to know the dps calcs for fun, I haven't seen any. Would be easy enough to add into nokowi's calcs though.

Nightmanis
09-19-2014, 04:00 PM
Just to clarify--Nightmanis is suggesting to make it a 20% healing amp stick to stack with the 10% and 30%. Some readers may not realize that though vets are obviously aware.

Actually I'm suggesting making a 10%/20%/30% heal amp kama. Has all 3 forms of heal amp on it, which is an amazing item unless you rely on cocoon. If you do, then yes just make a stick that makes up for the hamp you don't currently have equipped. Better yet, just make a triple hamp stick regardless.

Amazingly it's one of the cheapest greensteel items you can make.

CThruTheEgo
09-19-2014, 05:23 PM
Actually I'm suggesting making a 10%/20%/30% heal amp kama. Has all 3 forms of heal amp on it, which is an amazing item unless you rely on cocoon. If you do, then yes just make a stick that makes up for the hamp you don't currently have equipped. Better yet, just make a triple hamp stick regardless.

Amazingly it's one of the cheapest greensteel items you can make.

Yeah this is the better option imo. You have to do a swap to use a scroll anyway so you might as well just put the full heal amp stick in with the scroll and save yourself the gear slots by not having to keep heal amp on all the time.

nokowi
09-22-2014, 08:58 PM
Is it just me or has nobody done calculations for Int daggers with the harper divine might thing for int. So..an extra half int mod to damage..


If you consider all weapon and non-weapon effects (sneak attack, deadly, seeker, melee power, attack speed, doublestrike, etc) on my TWF toon with end game gear, every +1 bonus adds about +0.6% to damage.

A 62 Int toon (IntMod=26, 1/2 Intmod=13) would get about (0.6*13) = 7.8% extra damage with Int Divine Might.

Melee Power adds about 0.8% damage per point on my TWF build.

Stoner81
09-29-2014, 01:50 PM
Just swapped a bunch of stuff round and ended up losing Haste Boost which is a bummer plus whatever else I took in the Acrobat tree (which wasn't much) and it freed up the needed AP's to get INT to hit and damage. It netted me an extra +1 INT and 10HP plus some melee power too. I had to swap out Weapon Finesse with Fred to get INT to apply properly which is fine now, I will be looking in to swapping IC:Slash and probably Blinding Speed since that is available on the new boots from Epic Orchard and take Overwhelming Critical (probably).

Stoner81.

nokowi
09-29-2014, 11:36 PM
Just swapped a bunch of stuff round and ended up losing Haste Boost which is a bummer plus whatever else I took in the Acrobat tree (which wasn't much) and it freed up the needed AP's to get INT to hit and damage. It netted me an extra +1 INT and 10HP plus some melee power too. I had to swap out Weapon Finesse with Fred to get INT to apply properly which is fine now, I will be looking in to swapping IC:Slash and probably Blinding Speed since that is available on the new boots from Epic Orchard and take Overwhelming Critical (probably).

Stoner81.

It's hard to justify the AP in acrobat now, with the exception of fast sneak.

I found Epic SA did about 4% more damage vs Overwhelming Critical which was 3% more damage.

What are your slashing weapons? (I think many of us going piercing over slashing for Agony) EMG for keen?

Wizza
09-30-2014, 07:01 AM
Just swapped a bunch of stuff round and ended up losing Haste Boost which is a bummer plus whatever else I took in the Acrobat tree (which wasn't much) and it freed up the needed AP's to get INT to hit and damage. It netted me an extra +1 INT and 10HP plus some melee power too. I had to swap out Weapon Finesse with Fred to get INT to apply properly which is fine now, I will be looking in to swapping IC:Slash and probably Blinding Speed since that is available on the new boots from Epic Orchard and take Overwhelming Critical (probably).

Stoner81.

Losing Haste Boost is probably a much more DPS loss than what you gained in the Harper tree. I'm pretty sure you can have Int to damage AND Haste boosts, just need to play with AP enough to figure it out.

Hannse
09-30-2014, 01:13 PM
Losing Haste Boost is probably a much more DPS loss than what you gained in the Harper tree. I'm pretty sure you can have Int to damage AND Haste boosts, just need to play with AP enough to figure it out.

grrrrr

As an Int assassin i also i swapped out haste boost from acrobat. im not sure where i could lose the AP in mechanic without play testing, however the harper tree bug (I have to accept every change) is going to make trying out permiatations a pain in the neck and expensive!

Stoner81
09-30-2014, 02:34 PM
It's hard to justify the AP in acrobat now, with the exception of fast sneak.

I found Epic SA did about 4% more damage vs Overwhelming Critical which was 3% more damage.

What are your slashing weapons? (I think many of us going piercing over slashing for Agony) EMG for keen?

Oh damn I forgot all about Faster Sneaking! As for IC:Slash I was using both that and IC:Pierce for levelling for some reason I can't remember why now but as I said my build needed/needs a lot of updating :)


Losing Haste Boost is probably a much more DPS loss than what you gained in the Harper tree. I'm pretty sure you can have Int to damage AND Haste boosts, just need to play with AP enough to figure it out.

Oh it is doable it's just that there is so much stuff and not enough points to go round everywhere it's very frustrating.

Stoner81.

Saekee
09-30-2014, 04:05 PM
Actually I'm suggesting making a 10%/20%/30% heal amp kama. Has all 3 forms of heal amp on it, which is an amazing item unless you rely on cocoon. If you do, then yes just make a stick that makes up for the hamp you don't currently have equipped. Better yet, just make a triple hamp stick regardless.

Amazingly it's one of the cheapest greensteel items you can make.

Glad to be corrected and learn something new! I thought the 30 am gs was just that--not all the levels stacking. Time to make one!

nokowi
09-30-2014, 11:59 PM
Oh damn I forgot all about Faster Sneaking! As for IC:Slash I was using both that and IC:Pierce for levelling for some reason I can't remember why now but as I said my build needed/needs a lot of updating :)



Oh it is doable it's just that there is so much stuff and not enough points to go round everywhere it's very frustrating.

Stoner81.

You must have had some nice Kukri's to take improved crit slashing. The web weapons are keen at lvl 23 (no improved crit needed), so I took magical training instead of any improved crit while leveling 20-28. Once I hit level 28, I add a 250 sp augment to my gear set-up and drop magical training for improved crit piercing - needed for thunderforged dagger (or rapier). Dagger is the best dps choice with Knife Specialization.

nokowi
10-01-2014, 11:26 AM
Oh damn I forgot all about Faster Sneaking! As for IC:Slash I was using both that and IC:Pierce for levelling for some reason I can't remember why now but as I said my build needed/needs a lot of updating :)



Oh it is doable it's just that there is so much stuff and not enough points to go round everywhere it's very frustrating.

Stoner81.

I made a GS 10/20/30 stick (thanks for the tip!) and found out that I can probably get by with little to no scroll mastery.
(~240 hp scroll heals with healing stick and no wand mastery)

Also, I seem to be able to switch in and out of scroll use more quickly by hotbaring

button 1 scroll/weap
button 2 scroll use
button 3 dual weapons
I can very quickly cycle through these 3 buttons.

Previously I had only a scroll hotbarred, which required me to wait for a small delay (after equipping the scroll) before using.

While 400+ HP scroll heals are tempting (with scroll mastery), I think I am going to take these AP elsewhere.