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KookieKobold
09-05-2014, 09:58 AM
Hey folks! Lamannia is now updated and online!

For this cycle of Lamannia, Crystal Cove has been activated and has been tuned to only require 20 map turn ins to open. Additionally, the Vanguard Tree is available to check out.

Release notes and known issues will be posted shortly.

Cordovan
09-05-2014, 10:00 AM
Release Notes (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-9-5-14)) have been updated.

Oxarhamar
09-05-2014, 10:41 AM
woot back to the future Update!

Zurrander
09-05-2014, 10:44 AM
Vanguard is... so very very powerful... I love it! I have to say that all the paladin issuse are officially gone (save for the spells, LV 2 especially). But now the people that were crying about Holy Sword are going to cry Murder over vanguard...

Vanguard Shield Bash > Holy Sword on any weapon.

KookieKobold
09-05-2014, 11:17 AM
wooo... need more coffee! fixing title of the thread!

Maelodic
09-05-2014, 11:36 AM
So basically a Vanguard will be like TWF only your second weapon is a shield.

60% shield bash chance and 20% attack speed - with the LD twist of Shield mastery it's 20% doublestrike. It'll probably surpass TWF but I'm not one for math.

Also- liking the abundant step-like ability. I may make a pure bladeforged fighter at this point.

Qhualor
09-05-2014, 11:49 AM
The changes to Adrenaline, how will this affect my barbarians? Changing it to melee and ranged power from a straight damage boost, is this good or bad? If I can get past 201 error I will see for myself otherwise I have to wait until Live.

XodousRoC
09-05-2014, 12:04 PM
Hey folks! Lamannia is now updated and online!

For this cycle of Lamannia, Crystal Cove has been activated and has been tuned to only require 20 map turn ins to open. Additionally, the Vanguard Tree is available to check out.

Release notes and known issues will be posted shortly.

Well, we've all been waiting for Vanguard to make our final analysis of the Paladin pass...and I'm impressed. 2H and 2W fighters will gravitate toward KotC/HotD, but now there are offensive options on deck for sword and board as well, so some combination of Defender/Vanguard will rule the SnB clique.

Congratulations, you may have just enticed me out of my pajamas...

One bone of contention, though it regards KotC/HotD. If the enhancement cleaves are going to share cooldowns with the feats they ostensibly replace, they need to act as prereqs for Momentum Swing and Lay Waste, and need to proc a similar percentage chance to reset those cooldowns.

Overall, I'd have to say well done, and thank you for your efforts in improving our gaming experience

Abdaka
09-05-2014, 12:11 PM
While I am looking forward to the paladin changes, I can't say the same about the additions of PRR, MRR and melee power. I feel as thought every change from dice rolls to percentages is a change in the wrong direction. Rather than adding these malignant percentage based calculations, players would more appreciate a rescaling of armor class and taking a second look at the lowest/highest AC possibilities for players and the level appropriate hit bonuses of monsters.

My second great concern is that you avoid mending the issue that allows players to gain TWF with SWF by taking single weapon fighting first and then taking ranger levels this patch. We all had a good laugh when we noticed the issue and single-handedly took down high level raid bosses but it's time to go back to normal.

9001
09-05-2014, 12:41 PM
While I am looking forward to the paladin changes, I can't say the same about the additions of PRR, MRR and melee power. I feel as thought every change from dice rolls to percentages is a change in the wrong direction. Rather than adding these malignant percentage based calculations, players would more appreciate a rescaling of armor class and taking a second look at the lowest/highest AC possibilities for players and the level appropriate hit bonuses of monsters.

My second great concern is that you avoid mending the issue that allows players to gain TWF with SWF by taking single weapon fighting first and then taking ranger levels this patch. We all had a good laugh when we noticed the issue and single-handedly took down high level raid bosses but it's time to go back to normal.

Did I miss something? How can you get the benefit of both TWF and SWF at the same time, even if you have the feats?

Zerkul
09-05-2014, 12:45 PM
Took a quick look at Vanguard, specced one and tried it. I must say that it's weird to see a shielded DPS but you guys made it right. For now Vanguard looks quite cool I must say it.

I don't understand why though you guys nerfed by 1 dice the Knight of the Chalice light damage.

EDIT: Looks like you guys remained the 1 internal cooldown on shieldbashes. It's better you guys remain it if you plan on keeping that high damage on shieldbashes.

Abdaka
09-05-2014, 12:56 PM
Did I miss something? How can you get the benefit of both TWF and SWF at the same time, even if you have the feats?

This is not the proper place to discus details of exploits.

9001
09-05-2014, 01:02 PM
Is the shield bash "timer" going to be removed? what about the improved shield bash feat? Or can someone direct me to another thread if it's been answered?

BigErkyKid
09-05-2014, 02:09 PM
I have to explore it fully, but what I dislike right now is that any build that intends to do "optimal" DPS while using a shield will either have to be:

1. Swash (and then not use heavy armor)

2. Paladin lvl 14.

Any other build will be outclassed by those two options. In my opinion, what shielders need is:

1. Crit enhancements in the vanguard tree.

2. A completely different combat style designed for them.

PS - Optimal physical / melee DPS.

Seikojin
09-05-2014, 02:25 PM
The changes to Adrenaline, how will this affect my barbarians? Changing it to melee and ranged power from a straight damage boost, is this good or bad? If I can get past 201 error I will see for myself otherwise I have to wait until Live.

To get past 201: reinstall the test client from scratch. look in the pc technical sub-forum. Lots of info there.

Zurrander
09-05-2014, 02:32 PM
I have to explore it fully, but what I dislike right now is that any build that intends to do "optimal" DPS while using a shield will either have to be:

1. Swash (and then not use heavy armor)

2. Paladin lvl 14.

Any other build will be outclassed by those two options. In my opinion, what shielders need is:

1. Crit enhancements in the vanguard tree.

2. A completely different combat style designed for them.

PS - Optimal physical / melee DPS.

I don't think anyone using a Shield should ever do "Optimal" DPS... the Vanguard tree is made to give them "Competitive" DPS (which every melee needs to have). If we ever get to the Point where S&B is outclassing or even matching TWF/THF/SWF then something has gone wrong. So yes, Swash+Vanguard/Pally+Vanguard should be the "Optimal-Shield" DPS (along with Kensei+Vanguard... someone should take a look at that..) but they should by no means outclass the pure DPS builds.

P.S. (Swash+Vanguard isn't really a S&B combo, its a SWF fighting combo that takes advantage of an Exploit)... Though some may argue that the Devs intended Swashes to be DPS Gods..

BigErkyKid
09-05-2014, 02:37 PM
I don't think anyone using a Shield should ever do "Optimal" DPS... the Vanguard tree is made to give them "Competitive" DPS (which every melee needs to have). If we ever get to the Point where S&B is outclassing or even matching TWF/THF/SWF then something has gone wrong. So yes, Swash+Vanguard/Pally+Vanguard should be the "Optimal-Shield" DPS (along with Kensei+Vanguard... someone should take a look at that..) but they should by no means outclass the pure DPS builds.

P.S. (Swash+Vanguard isn't really a S&B combo, its a SWF fighting combo that takes advantage of an Exploit)... Though some may argue that the Devs intended Swashes to be DPS Gods..

That is not what I meant.

What I meant is that if you want to reach the top DPS a shielder can do, you need to be either

1. 14 paladin

2. Swash and not wear heavy armor.

Which is rather narrow if you ask me.

The reason why those are the best DPS option for a shielder without any sort of doubt is because they are the only crit enhancements they can grab. And we all know by know that those nice bonus are what make a top DPS class. Kensei is inferior to holy sword, as is any other sort of crit enhancement you can find nowadays.

I did not imply that shielders should have better dps than purely offensive builds and what not...

Qhualor
09-05-2014, 02:39 PM
To get past 201: reinstall the test client from scratch. look in the pc technical sub-forum. Lots of info there.

Yeah I've already re-downloaded Lama 5 different times and still have the same problem. I've read the 201 error thread and it all looks alien to me. The last time I messed with DDO files I borked Live and had to re-download.

poltt48
09-05-2014, 02:42 PM
How come none of the items got changed? You already said you where nerfing some and improving others but not a single item got changed.

Zurrander
09-05-2014, 03:03 PM
That is not what I meant.

What I meant is that if you want to reach the top DPS a shielder can do, you need to be either

1. 14 paladin

2. Swash and not wear heavy armor.

Which is rather narrow if you ask me.

The reason why those are the best DPS option for a shielder without any sort of doubt is because they are the only crit enhancements they can grab. And we all know by know that those nice bonus are what make a top DPS class. Kensei is inferior to holy sword, as is any other sort of crit enhancement you can find nowadays.

I did not imply that shielders should have better dps than purely offensive builds and what not...


Oh, sorry. In that case I agree, the Devs should either boost Kensei to match (or beat out) holy Sword & Swash or they should bring them down to Kensei Level. As far as I can tell they just need to Give Kensei +1 Crit Multi with there weapon focus to make it competitive again (that should be easy enough, just replace "Critical Damage" with the suggested enhancement).
That way Pally-Bard-Fighter could all share the Top Shield DPS, and considering that these are the "Shield" classes (well, not bard, but I'll let it go) that should be just fine.

I'm still not sure how Holy Sword gets to be in the same category with Swashbuckler though? Does Holy Sword even match up to "Exploit Weakness" by itself? Just 6 Points into Swashbuckler will let you match Holy Sword with a Lv 3 Bard... (granted, you can't do it with any weapon. But I think the Devs will eventually make Holy Sword work only for "Swords" anyway)

BigErkyKid
09-05-2014, 03:37 PM
Yeah I've already re-downloaded Lama 5 different times and still have the same problem. I've read the 201 error thread and it all looks alien to me. The last time I messed with DDO files I borked Live and had to re-download.

You should try to download the HD option. It is in the options tab of the client.

It worked for me. I have a post on this somewhere.

What I did was to download the HD version in a folder within turbine (which contains now LAMA and REGULAR DDO).

Hope this sorts it out for you!

BigErkyKid
09-05-2014, 03:41 PM
Oh, sorry. In that case I agree, the Devs should either boost Kensei to match (or beat out) holy Sword & Swash or they should bring them down to Kensei Level. As far as I can tell they just need to Give Kensei +1 Crit Multi with there weapon focus to make it competitive again (that should be easy enough, just replace "Critical Damage" with the suggested enhancement).
That way Pally-Bard-Fighter could all share the Top Shield DPS, and considering that these are the "Shield" classes (well, not bard, but I'll let it go) that should be just fine.

I'm still not sure how Holy Sword gets to be in the same category with Swashbuckler though? Does Holy Sword even match up to "Exploit Weakness" by itself? Just 6 Points into Swashbuckler will let you match Holy Sword with a Lv 3 Bard... (granted, you can't do it with any weapon. But I think the Devs will eventually make Holy Sword work only for "Swords" anyway)

No worries.

The big difference would be that kensei requires 5 levels of fighter (and a tone of useless feats, though).

The problem I have is that paladin 14 narrows down A LOT meaningful diversity. And bard does too, to be fair, because of alignment restrictions.

A bard shielder (real shielder, I mean tanky type) will probably take bard, fighter and a third class. Rogue is popular, I guess you could in other directions, but you are already very restricted.

If previous crit enhancements were placed at 5 min level, I think it would have paid to introduce a 1 handed crit enhancer at 5 min level too for the shielder. That would have allowed for a lot more combinations. In my understanding, this could be placed in the shielder tree.

Oxarhamar
09-05-2014, 04:07 PM
No worries.

The big difference would be that kensei requires 5 levels of fighter (and a tone of useless feats, though).

The problem I have is that paladin 14 narrows down A LOT meaningful diversity. And bard does too, to be fair, because of alignment restrictions.

A bard shielder (real shielder, I mean tanky type) will probably take bard, fighter and a third class. Rogue is popular, I guess you could in other directions, but you are already very restricted.

If previous crit enhancements were placed at 5 min level, I think it would have paid to introduce a 1 handed crit enhancer at 5 min level too for the shielder. That would have allowed for a lot more combinations. In my understanding, this could be placed in the shielder tree.

8 fighter levels

BigErkyKid
09-05-2014, 04:10 PM
8 fighter levels

You are right. 8.

I still prefer 8 to 14 for holy sword.

XodousRoC
09-05-2014, 05:12 PM
You are right. 8.

I still prefer 8 to 14 for holy sword.

Even though those 8 come with some wasted feats, fighter has them to spare.

What kills me is that my pure fighter Kensai doesn't feel comfortable in his own tree while my monksai takes full advantage of it (though several of the enhancements are a waste as well, to be fair). In no way should a tree be built in such a way that if you aren't multi-classing, you're doing wrong; Kensai is just that tree.

The heavy armor PRR/MRR changes help my (pre-enh pass) heavy armor Kensai out just enough that I LR'd him to full Pally.

My monksai continues to caper about in that fighter tree, but my fighter was pushed into Paladin...something is wrong there (though getting to use my SoS centered has been great fun for my monk).

Despite your multi-class concerns, a stated goal in this pass was to investigate avenues to make pure class/deep class splits not feel like they are getting rofl'd at by all the multi-class toons. Holy Sword accomplishes that for Paladin. You still have 6 potential levels to play with, so it isn't like it killed multi-classing, but it does reward a deep investment...exactly what the devs were looking for.

What doesn't feel right is that the best fighter Kensai has to offer is a +1 crit range, some fairly pointless attack clickies, a tier 5 insta-death clickie that has a huge cooldown and limited enough functionality that it rarely even sees my hotbars, and a general lack of functionality with a pure classed fighter.

My monk should NEVER benefit more greatly from 8 levels of fighter than a fighter does from 20.

giftie
09-05-2014, 05:29 PM
I'm still not sure how Holy Sword gets to be in the same category with Swashbuckler though? Does Holy Sword even match up to "Exploit Weakness" by itself? Just 6 Points into Swashbuckler will let you match Holy Sword with a Lv 3 Bard... (granted, you can't do it with any weapon. But I think the Devs will eventually make Holy Sword work only for "Swords" anyway)

The top Swashbuckling weapons such as Balizarde gets a 18-20 x4 crit profile before Celestial Champion and Imp. Crit/Keen. Holy Sword would give Balizarde a 17-20 x4 base crit profile, which should more than match Exploit Weakness. More importantly, it will allow you to use TF Khopeshes with 18-20 x4 or TF Falchions with 17-20 x3.

Purkilius
09-05-2014, 05:30 PM
Hey folks! Lamannia is now updated and online!

For this cycle of Lamannia, Crystal Cove has been activated and has been tuned to only require 20 map turn ins to open. Additionally, the Vanguard Tree is available to check out.

Release notes and known issues will be posted shortly.

While reading over the release notes I realized the huge work that is going to this update, ty :)

9001
09-05-2014, 05:39 PM
This is not the proper place to discus details of exploits.

Sorry, didn't realize there was an exploit. I'll shut up now.

BigErkyKid
09-05-2014, 05:40 PM
Even though those 8 come with some wasted feats, fighter has them to spare.

What kills me is that my pure fighter Kensai doesn't feel comfortable in his own tree while my monksai takes full advantage of it (though several of the enhancements are a waste as well, to be fair). In no way should a tree be built in such a way that if you aren't multi-classing, you're doing wrong; Kensai is just that tree.

The heavy armor PRR/MRR changes help my (pre-enh pass) heavy armor Kensai out just enough that I LR'd him to full Pally.

My monksai continues to caper about in that fighter tree, but my fighter was pushed into Paladin...something is wrong there (though getting to use my SoS centered has been great fun for my monk).

Despite your multi-class concerns, a stated goal in this pass was to investigate avenues to make pure class/deep class splits not feel like they are getting rofl'd at by all the multi-class toons. Holy Sword accomplishes that for Paladin. You still have 6 potential levels to play with, so it isn't like it killed multi-classing, but it does reward a deep investment...exactly what the devs were looking for.

What doesn't feel right is that the best fighter Kensai has to offer is a +1 crit range, some fairly pointless attack clickies, a tier 5 insta-death clickie that has a huge cooldown and limited enough functionality that it rarely even sees my hotbars, and a general lack of functionality with a pure classed fighter.

My monk should NEVER benefit more greatly from 8 levels of fighter than a fighter does from 20.

After 14 levels of paladin, you take 1 more for zeal almost surely. Now you are left with 5 levels. What do you do?

I think it is too specialized. You can reward deep investment in the sense that it is not WORSE than multiclassing (which had been the case until very recently with fighters practically forced to multiclass to take the most advantage of kensei). But forcing people to take 14 -15 levels of a class or accepting to be worse...seems to much to me.

We just reversed the situation, now not taking a lot of levels in a class is penalized as much as before taking them was a bad idea.

Therigar
09-05-2014, 06:12 PM
This is not the proper place to discus details of exploits.

I'm not really sure it is an exploit when it is known, has been reported to the developers, and is allowed to remain in the game. To the contrary, I would say that when it is known, has been reported to the developers, and is allowed to remain in the game that it is WAI.

It is not sufficient to say in an obscure posting someplace in a forum that it is not the intent. If it is out there, known, reported and permitted to remain then players can, will and should be expected to take advantage of the synergy just as they do with any other combination of classes, feats, gear, etc.

Therigar
09-05-2014, 06:24 PM
Not being a fan of the way Turbine chose to address S&B and having had made some egregious errors in understanding SWF, I took the time to move 3 characters to Lama and to build them up to be as identical as I could. The three characters involved ones with Celestia -- one to test SWF, one for S&B and the third with dual Celestias to test TWF.

Leveled all to 28 (20 fighter), put in same destiny tree, not trying to be optimal because I'm not sure at this point that I know what optimal will look like. Just went with what I think "typical" players might do. Used Vanguard enhancements on the S&B but not other 2.

Then went to the training dummy and timed how long it took without boosts of any kind to take down the dummy. Did a capture of the tests.

Time was 14 seconds for S&B, 15 for SWF and 11 for TWF to take down the dummy. Can repeat as required if someone suggests optimal builds. However, my rough guesstimate is that the three are relatively well balanced at this point.

Therigar
09-05-2014, 06:31 PM
After 14 levels of paladin, you take 1 more for zeal almost surely.

I am sitting on a lot of 14/6 paladin/fighter builds. I went to them because they are nearly impregnable below EE in the content I run most. The issue of Zeal never came up for me.

I am also sitting on a lot of 18/2 bard/rogue builds. I went to them because of the SWF and Swashbuckler enhancement.

If the pass builds the attack effectiveness of the 14/6 so that it is competitive with the 18/2 then I'd be hard pressed to want more. Waiting on a character copy to Lama now to test that specific situation.

XodousRoC
09-05-2014, 06:36 PM
After 14 levels of paladin, you take 1 more for zeal almost surely. Now you are left with 5 levels. What do you do?

I think it is too specialized. You can reward deep investment in the sense that it is not WORSE than multiclassing (which had been the case until very recently with fighters practically forced to multiclass to take the most advantage of kensei). But forcing people to take 14 -15 levels of a class or accepting to be worse...seems to much to me.

We just reversed the situation, now not taking a lot of levels in a class is penalized as much as before taking them was a bad idea.

Oh, I don't entirely disagree, but it does achieve what the devs had stated as a goal. The requisite 14 to 15 levels is based upon Paladin spell leveling and selection...all that could be relieved if we acquired spells a bit earlier. I'm not suggesting they do, but I'd certainly not complain about a 2 level shift toward the low end, netting spells/spell levels a bit sooner and perhaps opening up the spell book for some more utilitarian spells while still allowing a reasonable amount of levels for multiclassing, should you wish it.

I'm a multiclasser from waaaaay back (think red box, black box, gold box, etc) in pnp, but I get the impetus; they want pure/deep splits to be attractive and competitive. Should you not like how deeply you have to splash for Holy Sword (and Zeal), you're free to choose another class/classes to work with. We still get Divine Grace (and an apparent reprieve from announced potential nerfs to it), smites, defender stance (a much better splash tree than pure), etc for a minimal investment.

The Devs apparent intent (and I don't mean to put words in their mouths) is such that deep splits and pure classes are rewarded with some of the more/most powerful abilities...and this is well within the realm of reason.

3 levels of Bard will net you Swashbuckler stance, but you need 5 minimum for the tier 5 goodness, and 20 to net evasion (from the cores). They are giving us a lot of stuff to work with for an acceptable amount investment...just don't expect the best the class/tree has to offer to be offered with 14 levels left to play with.

I'd love to not have to invest so deeply, but I respect the intent here. It's only logical (much as I hate it) that we should have to invest deeply into a class or tree to receive the strongest aspects of it.

BigErkyKid
09-05-2014, 07:03 PM
Oh, I don't entirely disagree, but it does achieve what the devs had stated as a goal. The requisite 14 to 15 levels is based upon Paladin spell leveling and selection...all that could be relieved if we acquired spells a bit earlier. I'm not suggesting they do, but I'd certainly not complain about a 2 level shift toward the low end, netting spells/spell levels a bit sooner and perhaps opening up the spell book for some more utilitarian spells while still allowing a reasonable amount of levels for multiclassing, should you wish it.

I'm a multiclasser from waaaaay back (think red box, black box, gold box, etc) in pnp, but I get the impetus; they want pure/deep splits to be attractive and competitive. Should you not like how deeply you have to splash for Holy Sword (and Zeal), you're free to choose another class/classes to work with. We still get Divine Grace (and an apparent reprieve from announced potential nerfs to it), smites, defender stance (a much better splash tree than pure), etc for a minimal investment.

The Devs apparent intent (and I don't mean to put words in their mouths) is such that deep splits and pure classes are rewarded with some of the more/most powerful abilities...and this is well within the realm of reason.

3 levels of Bard will net you Swashbuckler stance, but you need 5 minimum for the tier 5 goodness, and 20 to net evasion (from the cores). They are giving us a lot of stuff to work with for an acceptable amount investment...just don't expect the best the class/tree has to offer to be offered with 14 levels left to play with.

I'd love to not have to invest so deeply, but I respect the intent here. It's only logical (much as I hate it) that we should have to invest deeply into a class or tree to receive the strongest aspects of it.

While I agree with what you are saying regarding taking the top ability of class,it has not been like for other melees so far.

The assassin crit enhancement, the staff specialization, swashbuckling stance, kensei from fighter all those are relatively low hanging, allowing for very deep splashes with other classes.

Right now, a real tank with armor and tower shield is restricted to 14-15 levels of paladin if you want to have the best DPS. I think it is too much.

But fine, moving on:

I tried how well it worked defensively and to be fair I think I am a bit disappointed. Do not get me wrong, I think it does well and it is much better than life shield builds. However, my THF paladin with a shield already had around 170 PRR and the shielder just got over 200PRR.

The DPS was higher on the THF of course and granted that some bonus were smaller (magical defense, dodge like ability with shield), but I wasn't missing much defense from the THF version to start with so at some point I even felt that while soloing the higher DPS of the THFer actually resulted in better defense. The reason being that a dead mob does not hit back. Finally the drain immunity fits better a defensive build IMO.

Regarding the shielder tree, I think that the crowd control options and the stun are superb. However, there are some expensive +1 damage bonus around there that are an absolute waste. I need to play it out a bit more to comment more.

Oxarhamar
09-05-2014, 07:46 PM
I'm not really sure it is an exploit when it is known, has been reported to the developers, and is allowed to remain in the game. To the contrary, I would say that when it is known, has been reported to the developers, and is allowed to remain in the game that it is WAI.

It is not sufficient to say in an obscure posting someplace in a forum that it is not the intent. If it is out there, known, reported and permitted to remain then players can, will and should be expected to take advantage of the synergy just as they do with any other combination of classes, feats, gear, etc.

Has been confirmed not WAI by the Devs.

Though they have not fixed it yet doesn't make it not an exploit.

To test you theory post on the general forum exactly how to achieve this in game and watch the thread be cubed into oblivion. Though it might stay for a bit since it is a weekend.

To say this is WAI is to say duping is WAI since the Devs haven't fixed that either.

poltt48
09-05-2014, 07:48 PM
Sad thing is bards/fighters with vanguard and swash can do a lot more damage then tanks with vanguard. my bard easily crits 4-5k shield bashes with stupid buckler. My pally with HH tower shield crits 1400 max.

Oxarhamar
09-05-2014, 07:49 PM
While I agree with what you are saying regarding taking the top ability of class,it has not been like for other melees so far.

The assassin crit enhancement, the staff specialization, swashbuckling stance, kensei from fighter all those are relatively low hanging, allowing for very deep splashes with other classes.

Right now, a real tank with armor and tower shield is restricted to 14-15 levels of paladin if you want to have the best DPS. I think it is too much.

But fine, moving on:

I tried how well it worked defensively and to be fair I think I am a bit disappointed. Do not get me wrong, I think it does well and it is much better than life shield builds. However, my THF paladin with a shield already had around 170 PRR and the shielder just got over 200PRR.

The DPS was higher on the THF of course and granted that some bonus were smaller (magical defense, dodge like ability with shield), but I wasn't missing much defense from the THF version to start with so at some point I even felt that while soloing the higher DPS of the THFer actually resulted in better defense. The reason being that a dead mob does not hit back. Finally the drain immunity fits better a defensive build IMO.

Regarding the shielder tree, I think that the crowd control options and the stun are superb. However, there are some expensive +1 damage bonus around there that are an absolute waste. I need to play it out a bit more to comment more.

No problems with the best tank DPS needing 14-15 lvls of Paly

This is what the player base has been asking for for a long time now.

Make pures stronger and/or put strong abilities higher up making multi classing a tougher decision.

the_one_dwarfforged
09-05-2014, 08:13 PM
please make the vanguard crit enhancers to shield competence bonus. otherwise i will be going 15+ pally every time i want to play a snb toon. there will just be no downside to 15 pally, and not enough reason to go mostly or pure fighter. frankly even if vanguard bonuses are competence, holy sword will still be way better than keen edge because keen edge cant be taken at the same time as vanguard t5s, which i would definitely want.

also it would be nice if holy sword only applied to straight swords. besides obvious balance reasons, this would give paladin appeal to bastard sword using tanks, and fighter would appeal to dwarves with dwarven axes.

lastly, know the angles from the harper tree needs to either grant int mod to stat (like divine might does), or it needs to be something other than an insight bonus. if neither of those changes are made it will be completely useless.




regarding the vanguard tree, it looks really nice and should be a lot of fun.

the_one_dwarfforged
09-05-2014, 08:14 PM
No problems with the best tank DPS needing 14-15 lvls of Paly

This is what the player base has been asking for for a long time now.

Make pures stronger and/or put strong abilities higher up making multi classing a tougher decision.

my problem with that is that it is only 15 pally, not 15 pally/ftr.

Therigar
09-05-2014, 10:28 PM
Has been confirmed not WAI by the Devs.

Then developers should fix it -- not let it continue. Otherwise the problem continues on, is discovered by new players who are unaware that it is an "exploit" and not WAI -- the result is that the whole game is hurt.

For an example, see the thread on the uselessness of the shard auction house -- where duping is receiving blame for making the asah a joke.

Therigar
09-05-2014, 10:35 PM
My preferred character would not transfer to Lama. Did manage to get a reasonable alternative there. Had to use freebie armors and gear instead of the gear set up I have on live, but close enough.

Ran 14/6 paladin/fighter with Shield Mastery feats plus Shield Bash, no PA/Cleave/Great Cleave. Took enhancements from defender trees and from Vanguard. >70% at level AC, PRR >150, DR 10/epic. Used Nightmare.

Had no troubles in quest typical for me. Frequent damage >300, occasional >700. Never used a heal or LoH. Much easier than with my 18/2 bard/rogue builds on live. (Edit: Have to add that the animation is a lot of fun with shield bash going off on its own very often.)

Since my only concern is that the paladin/fighter builds come close to the bard/rogues I'd be fully satisfied if this is what makes live.

MangLord
09-06-2014, 12:06 AM
Personally, I'm enjoying the changes to melee power as I prefer melee characters. Thank you. Ideally, I'd like to be killing mobs at a HE rate in EH while not blitzing and zerging to maintain the stacks, but its better than chopping down a forest through every EH mob. I'm sure casters are a little unhappy, but they've ruled the game since inception, so it's nice to be on somewhat equal footing for once. I still think that crowd controllers have fallen behind, especially with EE DCs, but I hope you'll remedy that in coming updates. Melee builds have needed help for a very long time, and I applaud you guys for it. Now why did you choose to not give TWF any melee power? I'd be fine with +5/10/15. Monks are overpowered, for sure, but I see TWF getting thrown in the trash as a viable option when SWF offers so much more.

Vanguard tree looks very good, especially for tanky people. It will be nice to take the Stunning Blow feat and get some use out of it.

My only complaint is about the Harper tree. I think it's great, but it kinda kills off most other trees in terms of top tier enhancements. I'm currently playing an elf fighter4/cleric16, and the top tier melee boosts for Harper vastly outweigh Warpriest. I'm not complaining about the Harper tree, just that all trees should have top tier enhancements on the same level. I really like the newest changes, as it throws melee players a much needed bone for epic content, but the majority of class trees can't compete with the new trees such as Harper and Bard trees, so I can foresee most players opting to take top tier harper enhancements in favor of their own class trees. I also feel like I have about 10-15 AP less than what I need with the Harper tree and all my other trees, so I'd suggest awarding a couple AP per epic level to round things out slowly. Personally, I almost never press ctrl+r after level 20, since my level 1-20 choices hardly matter when compared to epic destinies. It would be nice to get some small enhancement benefit with each hard earned epic level. +4 AP per epic level wouldn't be unreasonable, in my opinion.

I like the changes to blitzing. On the live game, I can be very effective as a blitzer dual wielding scimitars assuming I can build a stack or two before the epic moment times out. The 10% chance on attack works much better in my favor, as killing a 5000hp trash skeleton takes me longer than 15 seconds, assuming someone else doesn't poach it from me at the last second. As a heavy/medium armor user, the option for dodge or PRR is also excellent.

Nayus
09-06-2014, 12:24 AM
Now why did you choose to not give TWF any melee power?.


1) If you're TWF with weapons you're either a Ranger or a Rogue.
2) If you're TWF with weapons and you're not a Ranger or a Rogue then you should do lower DPS to preserve the viability of those classes.
3) If you're a Ranger or a Rogue, you can't use Medium or Heavy Armor, you'll need to use Light Armor.
4) If you're using Light Armor, you're going to give it up and splash monk instead.
5) Monks splashes are overpower, Turbine reworked PRR and introduced MRR so that people wouldn't splash monk.

Hence:

6) TWF needs to be supbar.

MangLord
09-06-2014, 12:40 AM
But I don't want to splash monk. In fact, I hate the idea of it because its such an easy button. Given that kamas are so crummy, I wouldn't see a problem with making TWF +5/10/15 melee power except when unarmed or in animal form. The coding has been done to exclude druid animal forms to be excluded from SWF, so why not TWF? It would keep unarmed monks at current level, which doesn't suck, and boost TWF weapon users into viability. Otherwise, NO ONE in their right mind is going to to opt for TWF after this update. Basically, this current formula will force rogues into SWF as a crummy melee build, and they'll still fall behind far enough to be relegated to trapmonkeys and opt for repeaters (to benefit from ranged power) in mechanic tree to provide plinky damage and be even less soloable. SA damage is pretty laughable at any level, and dual wielding relies heavily on vorpals in the current game, and gets annihilated vs 1000+hp enemies, so it'll fall ever further behind when every other fighting style gets a boost. Even pure shintao monks could use a little love when everyone else is getting a large buff. The rogue will just be a splash class unless someone is grinding through a TR life.

Behind barbarians (which may benefit a lot from THF melee power and a capped LD or Fury), rogues are lagging way behind with sneak mechanics still being unusable and assassinate DCs still looking pretty sad and highly situational. THF isn't getting much love, sneaking has been ignored since the minor gains in U19, and ranged aggro is through the roof. Not good for rogues of any kind. I used to dread bard lives, but now I dread rogue lives much more.

If I could sneak through a quest with top end Hide/MS gear as a rogue, I wouldn't mind lagging behind in DPS. However, it's basically impossible. It's easier to invispell without sneaking and run through a quest in heavy armor than it is to be patient and time enemy movements and still get caught, then have to break sneak to open a door. It's total garbage. Sneaking and chugging a hard to find Invis pot doesn't help much, since interacting with a lever kills both and draws everything in a The Who concert radius to you instantly. There are so many sneaky games to draw inspiration from that I can't understand why rogues are still so crappy.

With the current pass, rogue assassins won't be able to self heal without a splash, gain no additional TWF damage and still be limited to sneak attacking to provide any amount of DPS or assassation attempts. Goodbye rogue, hello SWF artificer on traps.

BigErkyKid
09-06-2014, 04:33 AM
Stalward is still level 6 fighter required in lama at the moment, despite the release notes claiming otherwise.

Bernaise
09-06-2014, 06:26 AM
In the latest change to Sacred Defender, the Core Skill "Sacred Defense" was moved but still mistakenly shows a minimum level of 6, which should now be Minimum Level 3. Looking forward to this getting fixed.

KotC: Just wanted to say that it's always a pain trying to invest points into the Tier-1 of this tree. Divine Light and Xtra Remove Disease are so corner case it's just bleh. Everything except for Extra Smite feels like I'm wasting points. Tier-2 doesn't have any passives, so forced into spending points on "click" abilities I don't really want.

BigErkyKid
09-06-2014, 07:06 AM
Know the angles is not adding DCs to the feats or at least it does not show in the hotbar.

HuneyMunster
09-06-2014, 07:37 AM
Is it just magical resistance that is now capped at 50 for robe wearers? Or also physical resistance?

Currently I have 20 prr from Savant, 30 from dumathoin bracers and 9 from epic past lifes which is 59.

BigErkyKid
09-06-2014, 08:29 AM
Is it just magical resistance that is now capped at 50 for robe wearers? Or also physical resistance?

Currently I have 20 prr from Savant, 30 from dumathoin bracers and 9 from epic past lifes which is 59.

AFAIK, only MRR. I've had robe lads with over 100PRR.

Stoner81
09-06-2014, 10:32 AM
But I don't want to splash monk. In fact, I hate the idea of it because its such an easy button. Given that kamas are so crummy, I wouldn't see a problem with making TWF +5/10/15 melee power except when unarmed or in animal form. The coding has been done to exclude druid animal forms to be excluded from SWF, so why not TWF? It would keep unarmed monks at current level, which doesn't suck, and boost TWF weapon users into viability. Otherwise, NO ONE in their right mind is going to to opt for TWF after this update. Basically, this current formula will force rogues into SWF as a crummy melee build, and they'll still fall behind far enough to be relegated to trapmonkeys and opt for repeaters (to benefit from ranged power) in mechanic tree to provide plinky damage and be even less soloable. SA damage is pretty laughable at any level, and dual wielding relies heavily on vorpals in the current game, and gets annihilated vs 1000+hp enemies, so it'll fall ever further behind when every other fighting style gets a boost. Even pure shintao monks could use a little love when everyone else is getting a large buff. The rogue will just be a splash class unless someone is grinding through a TR life.

Behind barbarians (which may benefit a lot from THF melee power and a capped LD or Fury), rogues are lagging way behind with sneak mechanics still being unusable and assassinate DCs still looking pretty sad and highly situational. THF isn't getting much love, sneaking has been ignored since the minor gains in U19, and ranged aggro is through the roof. Not good for rogues of any kind. I used to dread bard lives, but now I dread rogue lives much more.

If I could sneak through a quest with top end Hide/MS gear as a rogue, I wouldn't mind lagging behind in DPS. However, it's basically impossible. It's easier to invispell without sneaking and run through a quest in heavy armor than it is to be patient and time enemy movements and still get caught, then have to break sneak to open a door. It's total garbage. Sneaking and chugging a hard to find Invis pot doesn't help much, since interacting with a lever kills both and draws everything in a The Who concert radius to you instantly. There are so many sneaky games to draw inspiration from that I can't understand why rogues are still so crappy.

With the current pass, rogue assassins won't be able to self heal without a splash, gain no additional TWF damage and still be limited to sneak attacking to provide any amount of DPS or assassation attempts. Goodbye rogue, hello SWF artificer on traps.

Sorry but most of this is utter garbage about Rogues imho...


Sneak Attack works all the time you don't have to be in Sneak Mode, as long as you don't have the aggro of the monster you are attacking you will get Sneak Attack damage.
Shadowdancer ED is having Melee Power added to the cores (+4 I think).
Sneak Attack damage scales with Melee Power, so my Rogue could end up doing 200+ damage per swing per hand just in SA.
Venomed Blades is also going to benefit from scaling like other static abilities are doing
No self healing? You ever heard of that little thing called UMD?
Invis pots... again try UMD for the scrolls which are dirt cheap.

I have a level 28 Rogue Assassin on live right now and frankly I am really excited to see what sort of damage she does when U23 goes live compared to now, her DPS is a bit gimpy at the moment since I am working on ED's for her but overall this update should be pretty good for Rogues and on top of all that you have the new loot from U23 which is huge!

Stoner81.

SealedInSong
09-06-2014, 01:13 PM
Others have said it, but I do want to underscore how important it'd be for Harper to have a favor unlock as well. If you set the favor high enough, you're still going to get money for it as people pay for subscriptions or adventure packs.

VIPs have enough bonuses that are super tasty to keep me subscribing, i.e. N/H/E unlocks, run speed, new content, points per month, etc.

I don't like the precedent for having my character break if I unsubscribe for a small period of time--I'm more than willing to buy the tree outright or play the game (and spend more money in the store as I always do) unlocking it.

***PLEASE make an Eberron tree!

SealedInSong
09-06-2014, 01:15 PM
Sorry but most of this is utter garbage about Rogues imho...


Sneak Attack works all the time you don't have to be in Sneak Mode, as long as you don't have the aggro of the monster you are attacking you will get Sneak Attack damage.
Shadowdancer ED is having Melee Power added to the cores (+4 I think).
Sneak Attack damage scales with Melee Power, so my Rogue could end up doing 200+ damage per swing per hand just in SA.
Venomed Blades is also going to benefit from scaling like other static abilities are doing
No self healing? You ever heard of that little thing called UMD?
Invis pots... again try UMD for the scrolls which are dirt cheap.

I have a level 28 Rogue Assassin on live right now and frankly I am really excited to see what sort of damage she does when U23 goes live compared to now, her DPS is a bit gimpy at the moment since I am working on ED's for her but overall this update should be pretty good for Rogues and on top of all that you have the new loot from U23 which is huge!

Stoner81.

Unlike Fighters vs. Paladins, I think Rogues have actually gotten a really lovely boost and very few drawbacks. Not sure where Manglord's rogue doom is coming from...Mang, can you provide more context?

BigErkyKid
09-06-2014, 02:00 PM
Unlike Fighters vs. Paladins, I think Rogues have actually gotten a really lovely boost and very few drawbacks. Not sure where Manglord's rogue doom is coming from...Mang, can you provide more context?

I fail to see the boost, have I missed anything?

Because melee power to sneak attack...meh

maddong
09-06-2014, 02:12 PM
Is it intentional that the armor/shield bonuses from the two defender trees stack?
Do the vanguard trees lock each other out?

Oxarhamar
09-06-2014, 04:09 PM
Then developers should fix it -- not let it continue. Otherwise the problem continues on, is discovered by new players who are unaware that it is an "exploit" and not WAI -- the result is that the whole game is hurt.

For an example, see the thread on the uselessness of the shard auction house -- where duping is receiving blame for making the asah a joke.

Duping isn't the only thing making the ASAH a joke.

The end of the era of tradable named loot has killed it as well.

As long as there is no new BTCOE gear to be traded on the shard exchange it don't matter to me if it is dead or not.




The Devs have tried to fix the fighting style issues and players found workarounds to use them anyways.

Oxarhamar
09-06-2014, 04:11 PM
my problem with that is that it is only 15 pally, not 15 pally/ftr.


Why should it's be Paly/Fighter and not something else.

Oxarhamar
09-06-2014, 04:25 PM
I fail to see the boost, have I missed anything?

Because melee power to sneak attack...meh

Unless you have multiple sources of sneak attack damage.

For your New FOTM Bladeforged 15 Paly/whatever probably not so much.

BigErkyKid
09-06-2014, 04:59 PM
Unless you have multiple sources of sneak attack damage.

For your New FOTM Bladeforged 15 Paly/whatever probably not so much.

Even then, you won;t see big numbers. Every bit of damage helps, its true, but the fact is that before the power creep those 1d6 where actually much larger in relation to a crit or a regular hit. Now it is...sad.

Oxarhamar
09-06-2014, 09:39 PM
Even then, you won;t see big numbers. Every bit of damage helps, its true, but the fact is that before the power creep those 1d6 where actually much larger in relation to a crit or a regular hit. Now it is...sad.

For someone who loves a math so much your not doing it right.

With sneak attacks scaling with melee power they actually are equal in relation to a scaled Crit or regular hit for those builds who get those 1d6s.

Propane
09-06-2014, 10:31 PM
I copied my WF light tank (16 pally / 2 fighter / 2monk) over to Lamannia and played around....

Summary - complete fail... no AC, no doge, no evasion, still get poisoned...

I have a nice collection of large shields - no longer works with evasion

Mithral Body - 5 MAX Dex / Dodge - really?

Loss of evasion is no way worth the MRR

PRR is a little better - but not sure if after AC loss of down sizing shield it is work it...

This character will be a complete waste of a party slot when this goes live - moth ball character or re-roll / TR....

Holy Sword is a nice add - but quite annoying I need to recast every time I switch a weapon

Suggestions:

WF bodies AC and Max Dodge need to be reworked
Allow evasion with Mithral shields
evasion or MRR - not both would be a reasonable compromise
Holy Sword should be "active" for entire spell duration, even while you switch weapons

This character was great fun before MOTU - now is barely playable - after the update it will be a waste of a party slot.... reroll

XodousRoC
09-06-2014, 11:26 PM
I copied my WF light tank (16 pally / 2 fighter / 2monk) over to Lamannia and played around....

Summary - complete fail... no AC, no doge, no evasion, still get poisoned...

I have a nice collection of large shields - no longer works with evasion

Mithral Body - 5 MAX Dex / Dodge - really?

Loss of evasion is no way worth the MRR

PRR is a little better - but not sure if after AC loss of down sizing shield it is work it...

This character will be a complete waste of a party slot when this goes live - moth ball character or re-roll / TR....

Holy Sword is a nice add - but quite annoying I need to recast every time I switch a weapon

Suggestions:

WF bodies AC and Max Dodge need to be reworked
Allow evasion with Mithral shields
evasion or MRR - not both would be a reasonable compromise
Holy Sword should be "active" for entire spell duration, even while you switch weapons

This character was great fun before MOTU - now is barely playable - after the update it will be a waste of a party slot.... reroll

While we're at it, could you (finally) add a medium armor option? With the changes to PRR/MRR, such armor is at least situationally desirable (arti, barb, warchanter, etc).

I don't really care about the Holy Sword spell needing to be recast per weapon so long as it's active on said weapon for its duration (much the same as Deadly). I do think the armor feats need to be be revisited for Warforged...and it's just silly that they get poisoned at all. I like your idea to introduce a mechanic for allowing large shield use by sacrificing MRR for evasion. It would seem a good compromise that allows a mechanic used for the life of the game to remain viable (large shield + evasion) while not passing on the benefit of further magic protection beyond their evasion.

Oxarhamar
09-06-2014, 11:29 PM
I copied my WF light tank (16 pally / 2 fighter / 2monk) over to Lamannia and played around....

Summary - complete fail... no AC, no doge, no evasion, still get poisoned...

I have a nice collection of large shields - no longer works with evasion

Mithral Body - 5 MAX Dex / Dodge - really?

Loss of evasion is no way worth the MRR

PRR is a little better - but not sure if after AC loss of down sizing shield it is work it...

This character will be a complete waste of a party slot when this goes live - moth ball character or re-roll / TR....

Holy Sword is a nice add - but quite annoying I need to recast every time I switch a weapon

Suggestions:

WF bodies AC and Max Dodge need to be reworked
Allow evasion with Mithral shields
evasion or MRR - not both would be a reasonable compromise
Holy Sword should be "active" for entire spell duration, even while you switch weapons

This character was great fun before MOTU - now is barely playable - after the update it will be a waste of a party slot.... reroll

Max DEX/Dodge on Mithral body on live is no different so not sure the complaint? same with WF poison immunity it was nerfed in U14 so not sure the complaint here.

Evasion tanks using large/tower shields was nerfed find a light shield and adjust.

holy sword works similar to Deadly weapons buff you've got to buff each weapon.
How often are you really switching weapons that this is a problem?

All in all your evasion tank should survive the update with a bit of adaptation.

Funny_looking_mole
09-06-2014, 11:41 PM
While we're at it, could you (finally) add a medium armor option? With the changes to PRR/MRR, such armor is at least situationally desirable (arti, barb, warchanter, etc).

I used to wonder why there was no medium armor option, but the more I thought about it the more I realized, that there is no reason to take Medium armor plating over a heavy armor plating. In the examples given, you are looking at toons that have medium armor proficiency, but that doesn't matter at all for WF; by taking Adamantine plating you are proficient in it.

XodousRoC
09-06-2014, 11:50 PM
Max DEX/Dodge on Mithral body on live is no different so not sure the complaint? same with WF poison immunity it was nerfed in U14 so not sure the complaint here.

Evasion tanks using large/tower shields was nerfed find a light shield and adjust.

holy sword works similar to Deadly weapons buff you've got to buff each weapon.
How often are you really switching weapons that this is a problem?

All in all your evasion tank should survive the update with a bit of adaptation.

Max dex/dodge on the Mithral Body feat are absolutely fair game, and a pass that includes armor changes is exactly where he should be bringing it up....the idea that it works the same as on live is irrelevant to his complaint. The fact of the matter is that Mithral Body is supposed to be the equivalent of light armor...see anybody forced to accept dex/dodge caps of 5 on fleshie light armor builds? The forums would explode. This should absolutely be addressed.

Warforge poison immunity was nerfed long ago, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to vent about his living wood/metal construct getting poisoned...especially when he's discussing warforged related gripes.

He will likely have to adjust since the devs seem intent on nerfing the large shield + evasion combo, but this is, again, exactly the forum for him to vent about it if he disagrees. None of this nerf has hit live, and his suggestion to "turn off MRR" if utilizing it on an evasion toon is quite reasonable.

"Slap a bandaid on it and suck it up" kinds of attitudes don't lead to the kind of discourse that initiates positive change. He has concerns, and he has every right to air them here.

XodousRoC
09-06-2014, 11:54 PM
I used to wonder why there was no medium armor option, but the more I thought about it the more I realized, that there is no reason to take Medium armor plating over a heavy armor plating. In the examples given, you are looking at toons that have medium armor proficiency, but that doesn't matter at all for WF; by taking Adamantine plating you are proficient in it.

My concern with Warchanter and Arti are arcane spell failure chance. They have inherent ability to cast their spells in medium armor (warchanter needs to spend enhancement points to get that unlocked), but if they take the addy feat, would that not essentially subject them to a much greater spell failure chance?

Funny_looking_mole
09-07-2014, 12:04 AM
My concern with Warchanter and Arti are arcane spell failure chance. They have inherent ability to cast their spells in medium armor (warchanter needs to spend enhancement points to get that unlocked), but if they take the addy feat, would that not essentially subject them to a much greater spell failure chance?

I will admit I had not considered Bards (though with the changes to Swashbuckler I wouldn't suggest any bard take medium, but that's another subject), but I know that Artificer's don't have spell casting failure on their spells only when using scrolls.

Oxarhamar
09-07-2014, 12:53 AM
Max dex/dodge on the Mithral Body feat are absolutely fair game, and a pass that includes armor changes is exactly where he should be bringing it up....the idea that it works the same as on live is irrelevant to his complaint. The fact of the matter is that Mithral Body is supposed to be the equivalent of light armor...see anybody forced to accept dex/dodge caps of 5 on fleshie light armor builds? The forums would explode. This should absolutely be addressed.

Warforge poison immunity was nerfed long ago, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to vent about his living wood/metal construct getting poisoned...especially when he's discussing warforged related gripes.

He will likely have to adjust since the devs seem intent on nerfing the large shield + evasion combo, but this is, again, exactly the forum for him to vent about it if he disagrees. None of this nerf has hit live, and his suggestion to "turn off MRR" if utilizing it on an evasion toon is quite reasonable.

"Slap a bandaid on it and suck it up" kinds of attitudes don't lead to the kind of discourse that initiates positive change. He has concerns, and he has every right to air them here.

Oh no I agree DEX/dodge on Mithral body should be adjusted and has needed adjustment for a long time. Just his statements come off like this is a change or nerf to his build which it's not it's an existing problem with Mirtal body before U23.

The Devs have been pretty fast about thier wf poison changed but, hey maybe this time they decide to change it back?

The issue of shields and evasion though I think is a lost cause and here is why. Most of the adjustments made were from player feedback collected in the Balance feedback thread we had not so long ago. The majority or at least the vocal majority of players feel that evasion should not be possible while holding large shields & tower shields. I do not believe the Devs are going to go against the feedback in the thread for the most part. Notice the trend recently when asking the Devs "why this?""why that?" The answers seam to more than often be "player feedback".

The 16 Paly 2 monk 2 fighter evasion tank & similar builds out performing heavy armor tanks is one of the reasons players called for the shield evasion nerf.

It's a double edge sword the Devs listening to player feedback. We will get buffs and nerfs and everything in between.

At least they are listening and communicating now. Though I do not agree with 100% of thier decisions either.

My big gripe is "why no weapons in U23?"

Oxarhamar
09-07-2014, 01:02 AM
I will admit I had not considered Bards (though with the changes to Swashbuckler I wouldn't suggest any bard take medium, but that's another subject), but I know that Artificer's don't have spell casting failure on their spells only when using scrolls.

WF get spell failure reduction in thier racial tree as well. It cost some AP of course but, they have the options.

XodousRoC
09-07-2014, 01:31 AM
Oh no I agree DEX/dodge on Mithral body should be adjusted and has needed adjustment for a long time. Just his statements come off like this is a change or nerf to his build which it's not it's an existing problem with Mirtal body before U23.

The Devs have been pretty fast about thier wf poison changed but, hey maybe this time they decide to change it back?

The issue of shields and evasion though I think is a lost cause and here is why. Most of the adjustments made were from player feedback collected in the Balance feedback thread we had not so long ago. The majority or at least the vocal majority of players feel that evasion should not be possible while holding large shields & tower shields. I do not believe the Devs are going to go against the feedback in the thread for the most part. Notice the trend recently when asking the Devs "why this?""why that?" The answers seam to more than often be "player feedback".

The 16 Paly 2 monk 2 fighter evasion tank & similar builds out performing heavy armor tanks is one of the reasons players called for the shield evasion nerf.

It's a double edge sword the Devs listening to player feedback. We will get buffs and nerfs and everything in between.

At least they are listening and communicating now. Though I do not agree with 100% of thier decisions either.

My big gripe is "why no weapons in U23?"

I can't disagree with much of what u say here, though I did see a very vocal group of folks trying to defend evasion + large shield...tower shield wasn't really in it so far as I can recollect. It doesn't honestly affect me either way...I just find it unenjoyable when a perk enjoyed since game inception is yanked from under the feet of those who do use it after all these years. Pulling MRR and continuing to allow evasion (on evasion toons equiping large shields) with the new armor adjustments would have made heavy armor and light armor evasion tanks both viable...not just one or the other. Taking away evasion + heavy shields feels almost punitive...and such changes are rarely well received by folks that have worked hard to farm their gear (over years). It doesn't hit me where I live, but I most certainly sympathize with those who are suddenly invalid builds because the devs and the nerf-everything crowd decided it should be so. Not kosher.

I do agree that it's generally to the player's benefit to at least have the devs actively involving the community in these decisions, but it ultimately falls on them if an action that seems unjust is taken. They have the keys to the code.

I don't think weapons were included because of similar forum posts complaining about former systems being outdated too quickly (think alchemical), and worrying that Thunderforged weapons would be supplanted long before their run should be done as top dogs. I, personally, would love an epic Unwavering Ardency or somesuch. The weapons from the Heroic raid are unique, fun, and very useful as TR tools. Gripe shared.

XodousRoC
09-07-2014, 01:32 AM
WF get spell failure reduction in thier racial tree as well. It cost some AP of course but, they have the options.

Aye, but those classes are granted medium armor, and warforged have no medium armor feat. They have options, but not all the options they should have...

Oxarhamar
09-07-2014, 02:17 AM
I can't disagree with much of what u say here, though I did see a very vocal group of folks trying to defend evasion + large shield...tower shield wasn't really in it so far as I can recollect. It doesn't honestly affect me either way...I just find it unenjoyable when a perk enjoyed since game inception is yanked from under the feet of those who do use it after all these years. Pulling MRR and continuing to allow evasion (on evasion toons equiping large shields) with the new armor adjustments would have made heavy armor and light armor evasion tanks both viable...not just one or the other. Taking away evasion + heavy shields feels almost punitive...and such changes are rarely well received by folks that have worked hard to farm their gear (over years). It doesn't hit me where I live, but I most certainly sympathize with those who are suddenly invalid builds because the devs and the nerf-everything crowd decided it should be so. Not kosher.

I do agree that it's generally to the player's benefit to at least have the devs actively involving the community in these decisions, but it ultimately falls on them if an action that seems unjust is taken. They have the keys to the code.

I don't think weapons were included because of similar forum posts complaining about former systems being outdated too quickly (think alchemical), and worrying that Thunderforged weapons would be supplanted long before their run should be done as top dogs. I, personally, would love an epic Unwavering Ardency or somesuch. The weapons from the Heroic raid are unique, fun, and very useful as TR tools. Gripe shared.


I think the weapons should have been Mythic items only players would have grinded to the teeth for mythic weapons. While leaving Thunderforged the measureable grind.

BigErkyKid
09-07-2014, 06:44 AM
I have done extensive testing to try shielders with the new tree vanguard. There is absolutely no doubt that vanguard is a DPS buff to shielders. However, I am having a lot of trouble judging the changes.

This is because under the current form, the PRR pass has made plenty more builds "viable". By viable here I mean that they can complete quests. When completition is not the measuring stick, what should it be?

Time to complete is a bad measure because it ignores differences in the risk of failure. For instance, on a glass cannon I might complete much earlier on a lucky run, but still be aware that there is a much larger risk of failure than in another build that takes longer.

If content is not the relevant yardstick, then what should we use? We could of course compare the pure stats of two builds (damage reduction, damage avoidance, utilities, DPS, crowd control capacity), but if anyway completition is attainable at all difficulties in sub optimal builds, then does it really matter much if one is not at power frontier?

As the game stands, between a THF DPS paladin and a S&B paladin I find a

1. Difference of around 50PRR
2. Utility of the shield (some CC, extra slots)
3. Extra AC
4. Loss in DPS: a) need to use a suboptimal weapon, i.e. not a falchion, regardless of whether you get glances blows from a dwarxe, b) slower attack speed even when twitching, c) poorer DPS enhancements (unless you go equally full KoTC, but then the shield does not add that much).

All in all, I think the THF is more powerful but no doubt people playing a shielder will be pleased with the changes.

I would reintroduce the requirement of shield to get the defender benefits, it seems that full DPS paladins get too much defense nowadays.

My final question for the devs is: how are you looking at balance between shielders and DPSers? In particular for today's top DPSers, paladins.

Oxarhamar
09-07-2014, 07:02 AM
I have done extensive testing to try shielders with the new tree vanguard. There is absolutely no doubt that vanguard is a DPS buff to shielders. However, I am having a lot of trouble judging the changes.

This is because under the current form, the PRR pass has made plenty more builds "viable". By viable here I mean that they can complete quests. When completition is not the measuring stick, what should it be?

Time to complete is a bad measure because it ignores differences in the risk of failure. For instance, on a glass cannon I might complete much earlier on a lucky run, but still be aware that there is a much larger risk of failure than in another build that takes longer.

If content is not the relevant yardstick, then what should we use? We could of course compare the pure stats of two builds (damage reduction, damage avoidance, utilities, DPS, crowd control capacity), but if anyway completition is attainable at all difficulties in sub optimal builds, then does it really matter much if one is not at power frontier?

As the game stands, between a THF DPS paladin and a S&B paladin I find a

1. Difference of around 50PRR
2. Utility of the shield (some CC, extra slots)
3. Extra AC
4. Loss in DPS: a) need to use a suboptimal weapon, i.e. not a falchion, regardless of whether you get glances blows from a dwarxe, b) slower attack speed even when twitching, c) poorer DPS enhancements (unless you go equally full KoTC, but then the shield does not add that much).

All in all, I think the THF is more powerful but no doubt people playing a shielder will be pleased with the changes.

I would reintroduce the requirement of shield to get the defender benefits, it seems that full DPS paladins get too much defense nowadays.

My final question for the devs is: how are you looking at balance between shielders and DPSers? In particular for today's top DPSers, paladins.

Dwaven Axe seams like a poor Paladin weapon even with Holy sword I your getting 17-20x4 before ED factored?

Those glancing blows probably don't make the differance of using weapon with a better Crit Profile to start with.

I dunno maybe if your going dwarf throw your weight around super Wall of HP Paladin tank but, that's not going to be the top DPS shielded Paladin.

If you want to compare top DPS THF Paladin to shielder you'll have to build top DPS shielder first.

BigErkyKid
09-07-2014, 07:40 AM
Dwaven Axe seams like a poor Paladin weapon even with Holy sword I your getting 17-20x4 before ED factored?

Those glancing blows probably don't make the differance of using weapon with a better Crit Profile to start with.

I dunno maybe if your going dwarf throw your weight around super Wall of HP Paladin tank but, that's not going to be the top DPS shielded Paladin.

If you want to compare top DPS THF Paladin to shielder you'll have to build top DPS shielder first.

And what would that be? Dwarxe is better than bastard sword in LD, which is the top raw DPS.

Getting a different weapon means losing glancing blows.

The only other option is khopesh, but again, one has to compare with glancing blows and twitching.

I don´t mind that much the choices, tell me whatever you want to choose.

The most DPS I could think of is to combine THF line with shield mastery. If you think I am missing on something, just tell me what to try.

I am sorprised though that the only think you picked from my whole post was the choice of weapon.

Oxarhamar
09-07-2014, 08:12 AM
And what would that be? Dwarxe is better than bastard sword in LD, which is the top raw DPS.

Getting a different weapon means losing glancing blows.

The only other option is khopesh, but again, one has to compare with glancing blows and twitching.

I don´t mind that much the choices, tell me whatever you want to choose.

The most DPS I could think of is to combine THF line with shield mastery. If you think I am missing on something, just tell me what to try.

I am sorprised though that the only think you picked from my whole post was the choice of weapon.

I picked the choice of weapon because, you asked the Devs about comparison to Top DPS THF Paladin. If that is what you want to compare to you'll need to compared to Top DPS Shielder.

kopesh does lose out on glancing blows but, I am not convinced glancing blows is going to top Kopesh DPS at least on single target (a tanks primary role in a party hold single target Agro take a beating and stay alive) also LD may not be the top choice of ED for a DPS Paladin DC is probably more fitting with a stacking Crit range on holy sword and more self sufficientcy.

another weapon option is TF heavy picks same range as Dwarven axe but x5 with holy sword. Less range than Kopesh and again no Glancing blows.

also there is Deathnips but, those are a whole different monster entirely with weak base damage and high range Crit in a holy sword Paladin they are the x5 Kopesh of heavy picks but, those rely entirely on Crit damage and you'd have to build accordingly.

XodousRoC
09-07-2014, 11:35 AM
I think the weapons should have been Mythic items only players would have grinded to the teeth for mythic weapons. While leaving Thunderforged the measureable grind.

Measurable grind versus shot in the dark for Mythic?

Give me the shot in the dark.

I would totally go for your idea, but I think you may underestimate the grind for TF gear. It takes a LOT of raids to make a single T2 weapon, let alone a T3. Now add in your armor (or 2nd weapon), and I'll take my chances on a mythic Orchard weapon...though it looks like completing the epic Abbott may be a shot in the dark all on its own :p

Oxarhamar
09-07-2014, 11:44 AM
Measurable grind versus shot in the dark for Mythic?

Give me the shot in the dark.

I would totally go for your idea, but I think you may underestimate the grind for TF gear. It takes a LOT of raids to make a single T2 weapon, let alone a T3. Now add in your armor (or 2nd weapon), and I'll take my chances on a mythic Orchard weapon...though it looks like completing the epic Abbott may be a shot in the dark all on its own :p

We don't know what the shot in the dark is going to look like but, it could be ~shard of SOS or Ring of spell storing.

I know exactly how many raids it takes to make TF. I've crafted 1 Tier 2 (my mid ETR tool) & 2 Tier 3 all from legit raiding on live.

Edit
Hey. We ran a Deathwyrm last night I put my Phlogiston up for roll, another player put up Phlogiston, scales, & ingots, same player a first timer won both and pulled thier own Phlogiston. Now that's probably not the norm but, I'd imagine when running with groups like ours where most of us have our items already and we are doing the raids for a break from running XP or EE sagas it just may be.

Free2Pay
09-07-2014, 12:33 PM
Not sure what I was doing wrong, my Fighter with 127 PRR and 80 MRR just got torn up in Thunderholme explorer and I'm not sure how to achieve higher values to survive. Despite LR multiple times to different variety like splashing 6 bards or splashing 6 clerics and ultimately converting my fighter to 14 Pal/6 Clr for the holy sword and aura I still don't see any improvement to my survivability. Can anyone post a 34 pt build (non warforge or bladeforge) without raid equipments that can survive in raids so I can start getting the better loots? I have all packs but my toon doesn't seem to be raid-ready (I play on Wayfinder so raids are rare too). Where can I start getting better gears from quest contents rather than raids?

My MRR in heavy armor (Epic Mournlode armor from Cannith challenge; Light and Darkness shield) always capped at 80 not sure why either.

BigErkyKid
09-07-2014, 01:29 PM
Not sure what I was doing wrong, my Fighter with 127 PRR and 80 MRR just got torn up in Thunderholme explorer and I'm not sure how to achieve higher values to survive. Despite LR multiple times to different variety like splashing 6 bards or splashing 6 clerics and ultimately converting my fighter to 14 Pal/6 Clr for the holy sword and aura I still don't see any improvement to my survivability. Can anyone post a 34 pt build (non warforge or bladeforge) without raid equipments that can survive in raids so I can start getting the better loots? I have all packs but my toon doesn't seem to be raid-ready (I play on Wayfinder so raids are rare too). Where can I start getting better gears from quest contents rather than raids?

My MRR in heavy armor (Epic Mournlode armor from Cannith challenge; Light and Darkness shield) always capped at 80 not sure why either.

Ok, probably does not belong here, but let's go.

You can take a paladin to lvl 20. Equip him with plate armor, give him a 2handed weapon (even a tier 1 TF falchion would be good).

With the armor and a PRR item (for instance guardian s ring, or any bracers) you can get around 130PRR.

Twisting cocoon + cure serious should give you plenty of heals.

Regarding enhancements, pick KoTC for cleaves and take the capstone, then take the rest for defender.

It is a full proof build, you can't go wrong.

16 str,, 16 con, 16 cha is a good starting point.

Uska
09-07-2014, 03:19 PM
I can't disagree with much of what u say here, though I did see a very vocal group of folks trying to defend evasion + large shield...tower shield wasn't really in it so far as I can recollect. It doesn't honestly affect me either way...I just find it unenjoyable when a perk enjoyed since game inception is yanked from under the feet of those who do use it after all these years. Pulling MRR and continuing to allow evasion (on evasion toons equiping large shields) with the new armor adjustments would have made heavy armor and light armor evasion tanks both viable...not just one or the other. Taking away evasion + heavy shields feels almost punitive...and such changes are rarely well received by folks that have worked hard to farm their gear (over years). It doesn't hit me where I live, but I most certainly sympathize with those who are suddenly invalid builds because the devs and the nerf-everything crowd decided it should be so. Not kosher.

I do agree that it's generally to the player's benefit to at least have the devs actively involving the community in these decisions, but it ultimately falls on them if an action that seems unjust is taken. They have the keys to the code.

I don't think weapons were included because of similar forum posts complaining about former systems being outdated too quickly (think alchemical), and worrying that Thunderforged weapons would be supplanted long before their run should be done as top dogs. I, personally, would love an epic Unwavering Ardency or somesuch. The weapons from the Heroic raid are unique, fun, and very useful as TR tools. Gripe shared.

Well when the game started you could use evasion in heavy armor and this was changed with no way to respec your character at that time, now we have LR and LR+ not to mention the other reincarnations so their changing evasion to not work with large and tower shields is no biggie

MechGeddon
09-07-2014, 09:55 PM
Since this seems to be the place to make suggestions how about some changes to the weapon focus / weapon specialization lines. +2 attack and +4 damage for the cost of 4 feats seems pretty terrible at level 12. How about something like the following:

Weapon Focus - +4 MR
Greater Weapon Focus - +10 MR

Weapon Specialization - +2% double strike / shot
Greater Weapon Specialization - +5% double strike / shot

Also I would think the kensai T5 ability Keen Edge should be changed to be a copy of the Holy Sword spell save it should be either an insight or a competence bonus. This could see kensai come close to matching holy sword + zeal.

Aletys
09-08-2014, 02:46 AM
This is a really bad idea. Inventory & bank slots are valuable & limited. The Cruncher belongs in the bag with the cards it is used with. This makes no sense. If you're going to add more cards, or store something else in there, add more space in the bag, don't pull the cruncher out. It'll be easy to misplace once it's separated, especially for those of us with multiple toons. Please, please reconsider this.

Hulligan
09-08-2014, 10:23 AM
I copied my tank from live yesterday and spent a couple hours testing various builds, so here's a little conclusion, hope it helps :

The milestones were to use the same base, that is
* STR based (tried CHA based because of PDK synergy but didn't work. Not enough AP and lack of usefulness)
* THF and S&B style with heavy armor (flawless white heavy) and TF bastard sword

18 paladin / 2 fighter PDK (or human, doesn't matter) - this will be the etalon

Probably the most versatile choice after U23 both survivable and capable of doing DPS.
* Holy Defender and Vanguard lines (43 ap / ~33ap rest to build up divine might in KotC)

PRO:
* this build resulted in most AC and PRR
-- 206 AC and 224 PRR in Dreadnaught with 1300+ HP
-- 230 AC and 274 PRR in Unyielding Sentinel with 1800+ HP
* Very good DPS (7-8 sec Training Dummy, decent ~ 2K dmg / sec into critable mobs)
* good cc capabalites with stunnign blow and shield stun


CONS:
Despite the very high PRR you still don't want to be hit in EE content especially when you are surrounded by more than 2-3 mobs.
The above AC is not too effective in EE and I didn't see how to improve any further without gimping too much my DPS, so overall one will still want to avoid being hit rather than reducing incoming damage.

Another try was :

20 paladin holy defender (pure defender)
- compared to the above build some more HP (roughly +10%) but a lot less DPS (~40% less DPS then above build)
- no improved shield bash and no stunning blow because lack of feats
- I'd never use this

20 fighter (kensei / vanguard)
- probably the most DPS you can get out from Vanguard
- ~450 less HP compared to build on top
- 130 PRR, 140 AC in Dreadnought, some more in Unyielding Sentinel - this is decent for a standard DPS toon but very weak for a proper tank
- still feels like my shuriken user rogue deals more damage
- as a pro: very high (80-ish) stun DC which will stun like anything in EE content. Too bad end game content recently is now full of undead and constructs :/

20 fighter (defender / vanguard)
- compared to build on top this might be an alternate version that works
- -10% doublestrike (no zeal) but +5% doublestrike (capstone) AND +5% attack speed (capstone) brings it equal
- no holy sword. yepp thats all about it. in return you get a lot more feats which ... you can't really use unless you take a ton of toughnes... and completionist if you can. but nothing real value here unless you make it to...

... the same build but with NO heavy armor but with light.
This way your max dodge limit can be extended easily to max dodge cap (25). for eg. Flawless White dragonhide has a base max dex bonus 19.
This allows you roughly 20% more dodge then in heavy armor which somewhat compensates the halved PRR bonus.

Thing is I (personally) hate the look of light armors, they are all exteremly ugly. Don't want. I either use a robe/outfit or a heavy armor.
BUT if the mirror of 'copy the look of an armor' will work to copy the image of a robe onto a light armor - it's for the better.

As a final tought : I'm happy with Vanguard as a new enhancement line and also a bit disappointed that old ones didn't get some boost. KotC is very weak. In NO cicumstances would I use it not even thinking on getting the tier 5 or the capstone in that line. I was hoping in some improvement there. Maybe in some future update.

Xianio
09-08-2014, 01:15 PM
First I'd like to say that I like the Stalwart Defender tree, but I feel like there could be some noticeable improvements made to a few selections.

Core Tier 4 - Stand Fast: This enhancement feels very situational and with the enormous penalties to skills that tower shield + heavy armor gives it seems like nearly a waste. Given that this is slot is up against kensai's +8 strength it might be reasonable to consider making the effect 'Immunity to fear/knockdowns for 20 seconds" instead of a static skill bonus.

Armor Expertise: The AC bonus is so very low. Consider doubling it. Really the only reason to take this enhancement is because it unlocks Shield Expertise, which with the added +3 to hit and damage actually makes it worthwhile.

Tenacious Defense: Please please don't remove the extra HP if you pull out a throwing weapon. Yes, I know this can be gimmicked but losing out on 20% of your HP just because you need to flip a distant switch/pull a large group of enemies a little more slowly makes this enhancement extremely tedious and frustrating.

Counterattack: Nobody shield blocks. This skill is an outdated relic of a playstyle that doesn't exist anymore. Please update it so there's a reason to take it. Consider on-hit the effect occurs, or on-attacked to make it in line with reprisal.

Reprisal: 9 out of 10 times that I'm in combat I will NEVER reach the +10 threshold. Only if I've been CC'd is it possible. Every character can attack fast enough that +3, maybe +4 is really all this skill ever provides. While potentially good, if the goal was to provide a strong hit up to +10, then the only way to accomplish that is to make it +2 damage on-attacked.

Finally, why is the Sacred Defender SOOO much better at defense than the Stalwart Defender? Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the added offense but defensively Sacred is just 10x better than Stalwart - and that's on a class that already has significantly better defenses. If Stalwart is intended to be the Fighters defensive tree, it's not doing a very good job, by comparison.


in return you get a lot more feats which ... you can't really use unless you take a ton of toughnes...

THF + Improved + Greater
Sheild Mastery + Improved + Shield Bash
Power Attack + Cleave + Great Cleave
Imp Crit
Dodge, Mobility
Combat Expertise + Imp. Trip
Stunning Blow
Weapon Specialization + Greater
Exotic Weapon Prof (if you want Bsword or Daxe without being a dwarf)

That's 18 very useful feats for a S+B Vanguard. Hope that helps for later :)


PS:

If you want Vanguards Shield Specalization to be really meaningful, drop the +1 AC and make it +1 Max Dex Bonus on shield. That will scale a million times better and be significantly more useless defensively.

XodousRoC
09-08-2014, 08:55 PM
Well when the game started you could use evasion in heavy armor and this was changed with no way to respec your character at that time, now we have LR and LR+ not to mention the other reincarnations so their changing evasion to not work with large and tower shields is no biggie

I know nothing of evasion working with heavy armor, and it doesn't work with tower shields...not sure where u folks got that from the original post. I've been here ~3 years now, and evasion and tower shields/heavy armor have always been mutually exclusive terms in that time. The game's been around for about 7 years, and evasion + heavy shield have worked together the entirety of that time. Pulling heavy shields at this point feels punitive whether you'd agree or not. I'm sure if there was a point when evasion had worked with heavy armor for a period of years, and people had farmed good heavy armor for their evasion builds, they weren't happy either.

The term "Heavy Shield" by itself seems incompatible with evasion, yet it has been quite kosher for the better part of a decade.

Perhaps it wouldn't bother folks so much if reasonable alternatives existed to replace their farmed out large shields...but said alternatives do not. Saying this will be addressed in an end game area in no way truly addresses it. There are just not enough bucklers and small shields to replace the loss of heavy shield use. They promised bucklers with Swashbucklers...and we have 2 epic Names (released with Swashbuckler) and a crafted Name. Not exactly a ringing endorsement that this will be followed through with. Where are the Heroic bucklers? Where are the end game bucklers? Where are the early Epic bucklers? They don't exist, and it would seem likely that small shields will be in a similar state.

I hope, for the sake of the folks using bucklers and those being forced out of large shields that a bevy of heroic and epic Names are released within the coming months, but it's still going to negatively impact them either way. That heavy armor was yanked (rightly) with no compensation (perhaps unjustly) does not have bearing here. The people now, who are about to lose a 7 year functionality, are concerned over the lack of sufficient replacements for their gear now.

*As an aside, I find it disingenuous that anyone would compare the loss of heavy armor (for which there are no lack of replacements for all level ranges) to the loss of heavy shields (for which there are virtually no replacements).

cryptblitzer
09-09-2014, 12:58 AM
Look im honestly concerned about one thing. I cant test the build myself atm so i was wondering 2 things...one has anyone played a swash with buckler running vanguard for the high crit and attack speed? and 2 is the combat style speed boost from Vanguard a different type of boost then SWF since it comes from an enhancement rather then a feat?? if so are swf and Vanguard going to stack? I would think single target wise it would make for a nice build...anyways if ya can get back to me on this be great thx. :)

tfc_generalKMK
09-09-2014, 07:22 AM
Look im honestly concerned about one thing. I cant test the build myself atm so i was wondering 2 things...one has anyone played a swash with buckler running vanguard for the high crit and attack speed? and 2 is the combat style speed boost from Vanguard a different type of boost then SWF since it comes from an enhancement rather then a feat?? if so are swf and Vanguard going to stack? I would think single target wise it would make for a nice build...anyways if ya can get back to me on this be great thx. :)

i don't remember if it was in this thread or the feedback thread in enhancement sub forum but i remember someone commenting about it now i don't remember one way or the other as to the answer just that it was discussed

4tonmantis
09-09-2014, 08:57 AM
I know nothing of evasion working with heavy armor, and it doesn't work with tower shields...not sure where u folks got that from the original post. I've been here ~3 years now, and evasion and tower shields/heavy armor have always been mutually exclusive terms in that time. The game's been around for about 7 years, and evasion + heavy shield have worked together the entirety of that time. Pulling heavy shields at this point feels punitive whether you'd agree or not. I'm sure if there was a point when evasion had worked with heavy armor for a period of years, and people had farmed good heavy armor for their evasion builds, they weren't happy either.

The term "Heavy Shield" by itself seems incompatible with evasion, yet it has been quite kosher for the better part of a decade.

Perhaps it wouldn't bother folks so much if reasonable alternatives existed to replace their farmed out large shields...but said alternatives do not. Saying this will be addressed in an end game area in no way truly addresses it. There are just not enough bucklers and small shields to replace the loss of heavy shield use. They promised bucklers with Swashbucklers...and we have 2 epic Names (released with Swashbuckler) and a crafted Name. Not exactly a ringing endorsement that this will be followed through with. Where are the Heroic bucklers? Where are the end game bucklers? Where are the early Epic bucklers? They don't exist, and it would seem likely that small shields will be in a similar state.

I hope, for the sake of the folks using bucklers and those being forced out of large shields that a bevy of heroic and epic Names are released within the coming months, but it's still going to negatively impact them either way. That heavy armor was yanked (rightly) with no compensation (perhaps unjustly) does not have bearing here. The people now, who are about to lose a 7 year functionality, are concerned over the lack of sufficient replacements for their gear now.

*As an aside, I find it disingenuous that anyone would compare the loss of heavy armor (for which there are no lack of replacements for all level ranges) to the loss of heavy shields (for which there are virtually no replacements).

You can currently evade with tower shields on the live server. My toon was doing it all night last night. Not sure where you're getting your info.

Vargouille
09-09-2014, 10:47 AM
Look im honestly concerned about one thing. I cant test the build myself atm so i was wondering 2 things...one has anyone played a swash with buckler running vanguard for the high crit and attack speed? and 2 is the combat style speed boost from Vanguard a different type of boost then SWF since it comes from an enhancement rather then a feat?? if so are swf and Vanguard going to stack? I would think single target wise it would make for a nice build...anyways if ya can get back to me on this be great thx. :)

Benefits with the same bonus type don't stack. Multiple Combat Style Bonuses to attack speed won't stack.

janave
09-09-2014, 12:24 PM
Since this seems to be the place to make suggestions how about some changes to the weapon focus / weapon specialization lines. +2 attack and +4 damage for the cost of 4 feats seems pretty terrible at level 12. How about something like the following:

Weapon Focus - +4 MR
Greater Weapon Focus - +10 MR

Weapon Specialization - +2% double strike / shot
Greater Weapon Specialization - +5% double strike / shot

Also I would think the kensai T5 ability Keen Edge should be changed to be a copy of the Holy Sword spell save it should be either an insight or a competence bonus. This could see kensai come close to matching holy sword + zeal.

Yes those pre-req feats are utterly disappointing.

I would change the weapon focuses to grant 3-5% fortification bypass each, for up to 9-15% with the 3 feats.
I agree that specialization should also add scaling dps, id say a flat 5% melee damage per feat is nothing over the top for a squishy Kensei, at least they can enjoy the first few hits before they inevitably turn to soulstones on pulling aggro :D.


The fighter class is extremely deceptive, you would think you can stand in the frontline and do battle :D. Well except the constant failed saves wont let you do much of anything.

Spell caster enemies are too much on steroids, and they cant be interrupted. If Fighters and Barbs had a cool ability that disrupts spell casting from monsters (red named too), that would be pretty good. An improved sunder + APs ability for a lowish chance would be cool too. Would fit a Wizard/occult slayer type of guy.

lain5246
09-09-2014, 12:42 PM
Benefits with the same bonus type don't stack. Multiple Combat Style Bonuses to attack speed won't stack.

Does that mean that fighting styles wont be exclusive any more? on live I cant take swf and thf on my arti, even though I met the requirements. I am curious, please respond.

Seikojin
09-09-2014, 01:28 PM
Look im honestly concerned about one thing. I cant test the build myself atm so i was wondering 2 things...one has anyone played a swash with buckler running vanguard for the high crit and attack speed? and 2 is the combat style speed boost from Vanguard a different type of boost then SWF since it comes from an enhancement rather then a feat?? if so are swf and Vanguard going to stack? I would think single target wise it would make for a nice build...anyways if ya can get back to me on this be great thx. :)

The speed bonus is the same type and do not stack. First thing I tried.


Does that mean that fighting styles wont be exclusive any more? on live I cant take swf and thf on my arti, even though I met the requirements. I am curious, please respond.

I think the only exception, is if you somehow have both 2hf feats and swf feats, and are using a bsword or daxe, you probably will get both. However you can't take one if you have the other, currently. The only exception to this rule I believe is taking swf feats and then going deep enough in ranger to get the twf feats. However, they offer nothing for eachother anyways, so you get nothing from it.

-Avalon-
09-09-2014, 01:31 PM
Does that mean that fighting styles wont be exclusive any more? on live I cant take swf and thf on my arti, even though I met the requirements. I am curious, please respond.

The reason for that, is that SWF and THF don't give similar bonuses, and using a Bastard sword with only one hand and an orb or runearm in the other, technically would allow you to get the benefits of glancing blows, add in the super-speed bonuses of SWF (which you could do while using a Bastard Sword and an Orb/Runearm) and now you get the absolute best combo in the game: +30% combat speed + Maxed out Glancing Blows, as well as more bonus to damage on all of it from your primary stat. At least that is my opinion of the real reason they are exclusive despite the flexibility it would grant...

I guess, their response is Vanguard? So, you could do THF and S&B, but even then, you can get big bonuses from full THF style and Vanguard, use a Bastard Sword and get massive benefits... I don't know, doesn't make sense overall.

CaptainSpacePony
09-09-2014, 01:40 PM
Tenacious Defense: Please please don't remove the extra HP if you pull out a throwing weapon. Yes, I know this can be gimmicked but losing out on 20% of your HP just because you need to flip a distant switch/pull a large group of enemies a little more slowly makes this enhancement extremely tedious and frustrating.


I have not tested anything, but I agree, throwers, scrolls, and ummmm... other things should not cause a hp loss.

XodousRoC
09-09-2014, 01:48 PM
You can currently evade with tower shields on the live server. My toon was doing it all night last night. Not sure where you're getting your info.

On this, I stand corrected. Is this WAI? I'd been told by a guildy years ago that it didn't work, but I jumped into the epic Druid chain in Estar to test it with a Skyvault on my PM/Trapper...and I evaded to high heaven. It would seem not just heavy shields are being yanked...Tower shields do indeed retain evasion functionality.

That doesn't make what's about to happen to evasion tanks better.

It makes it worse. They have had functional use of every Named shield in the game (most of them being concentrated between tower and heavy) and now are thrust into no-man's land. I know there are a couple of bucklers and small shields coming with the new update from the Orchard. The question is still begged; where are the rest of the small shields and bucklers to cover the rest of the game? End game will have some limited selection, mid-epic has all of 2 bucklers, and if you haven't crafted a Cove buckler, you're out of luck for early epics. Heroics? Are more being released that we are unaware of? I believe only a bare few heroic level small shields exist in a Named incarnation.

In what way does that cover being ousted from large shields/tower shields (wow on that one)?

Vargouille
09-09-2014, 02:04 PM
Does that mean that fighting styles wont be exclusive any more? on live I cant take swf and thf on my arti, even though I met the requirements. I am curious, please respond.
We aren't planning to change this, primarily as a matter of balance.

4tonmantis
09-09-2014, 02:08 PM
On this, I stand corrected. Is this WAI? I'd been told by a guildy years ago that it didn't work, but I jumped into the epic Druid chain in Estar to test it with a Skyvault on my PM/Trapper...and I evaded to high heaven. It would seem not just heavy shields are being yanked...Tower shields do indeed retain evasion functionality.

That doesn't make what's about to happen to evasion tanks better.

It makes it worse. They have had functional use of every Named shield in the game (most of them being concentrated between tower and heavy) and now are thrust into no-man's land. I know there are a couple of bucklers and small shields coming with the new update from the Orchard. The question is still begged; where are the rest of the small shields and bucklers to cover the rest of the game? End game will have some limited selection, mid-epic has all of 2 bucklers, and if you haven't crafted a Cove buckler, you're out of luck for early epics. Heroics? Are more being released that we are unaware of? I believe only a bare few heroic level small shields exist in a Named incarnation.

In what way does that cover being ousted from large shields/tower shields (wow on that one)?

I'm with you.. THE reason I'm able to evasion tank in light armor is because of towers.. Without them AC and PRR drop to a level that marginalizes my ability to do so. People are saying "well evasion tanks can still evade blah blah blah" but the fact is I'm not just evading, I'm also enjoying a high AC and decent PRR (not exceptional).
I'm not completely up in arms because I haven't jumped on Lam to test it.. but I am anticipating having to have two separate loadouts.. one for AC tanking and one for questing. This is extremely annoying considering how much of my inventory is already taken up by wall the different melee weapons and trapping gear I have. Gotta sell those inventory slots somehow though right???

Seikojin
09-09-2014, 02:25 PM
I'm with you.. THE reason I'm able to evasion tank in light armor is because of towers.. Without them AC and PRR drop to a level that marginalizes my ability to do so. People are saying "well evasion tanks can still evade blah blah blah" but the fact is I'm not just evading, I'm also enjoying a high AC and decent PRR (not exceptional).
I'm not completely up in arms because I haven't jumped on Lam to test it.. but I am anticipating having to have two separate loadouts.. one for AC tanking and one for questing. This is extremely annoying considering how much of my inventory is already taken up by wall the different melee weapons and trapping gear I have. Gotta sell those inventory slots somehow though right???

Well using huge shields with evasion wasn't WAI from the get go. So it is getting fixed. Roll a buckler build, since it looks like they can still get it.

Zurrander
09-09-2014, 02:58 PM
Well using huge shields with evasion wasn't WAI from the get go. So it is getting fixed. Roll a buckler build, since it looks like they can still get it.

This has been brought up before Seikojin, but Large shields weigh less than light armor (They are about half as heavy)... So it's was totally WAI for them to be allowed with evasion. Tower Shields on the other had weigh far to much, and shouldn't be allowed (and I'm pretty sure they weren't at some point?). The only reason for this change is that the Devs want to create a demand for small shields, and while i disagree with what they are doing, I understand that thought behind it. What they should do (this has been suggested several times) is to give "INCENTIVES" to evasion builds for using small shields, instead of forcing them to downgrade. So, once again Dev's make small shields more attractive to Evaders and you'll have accomplished your goal without angering a contingent of the community (however small that contingent my be). Because its just silly to have a 7-15 pound shield stop evasion, but a 10-12 pound weapon or 15-30 pound set of light armor allow it.

References... (for those of you that care)
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mournlode_Maul_(Level_16)
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Hero%27s_Leathers_(Level_27)
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Demon_Scale_Armor
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Aegis_of_Flame

Even allowing a total weight limit for evasion would be better then this. That way the weight of your equipment would matter for something (for once) and evasion builds would have to balance the weight of their weapons / shield / armor against each other. That would make the game more interesting, instead of just imposing more restrictions. Considering that the lighter (light armor-weapon- heavy shield) combo weighs about "7+6+15" you could create a 30-40 pound limit for evasion builds (only including worn equipment of-course). This way heavy armor and or tower shields would remain restricted, yet an evader that manages his items well could use a large shield + light armor (with a restriction on which ones they could use based on weight).

XodousRoC
09-09-2014, 04:05 PM
This has been brought up before Seikojin, but Large shields weigh less than light armor (They are about half as heavy)... So it's was totally WAI for them to be allowed with evasion. Tower Shields on the other had weigh far to much, and shouldn't be allowed (and I'm pretty sure they weren't at some point?). The only reason for this change is that the Devs want to create a demand for small shields, and while i disagree with what they are doing, I understand that thought behind it. What they should do (this has been suggested several times) is to give "INCENTIVES" to evasion builds for using small shields, instead of forcing them to downgrade. So, once again Dev's make small shields more attractive to Evaders and you'll have accomplished your goal without angering a contingent of the community (however small that contingent my be). Because its just silly to have a 7-15 pound shield stop evasion, but a 10-12 pound weapon or 15-30 pound set of light armor allow it.

References... (for those of you that care)
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mournlode_Maul_(Level_16)
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Hero%27s_Leathers_(Level_27)
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Demon_Scale_Armor
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Aegis_of_Flame

Even allowing a total weight limit for evasion would be better then this. That way the weight of your equipment would matter for something (for once) and evasion builds would have to balance the weight of their weapons / shield / armor against each other. That would make the game more interesting, instead of just imposing more restrictions. Considering that the lighter (light armor-weapon- heavy shield) combo weighs about "7+6+15" you could create a 30-40 pound limit for evasion builds (only including worn equipment of-course). This way heavy armor and or tower shields would remain restricted, yet an evader that manages his items well could use a large shield + light armor (with a restriction on which ones they could use based on weight).

Weight restrictions are a way of life for monks. Monks have to retain a light load limit in order to remain centered (uncentered states for pure monks are bad, bad places to be). Perhaps a limit of not more than a medium load or evasion turns off as well? I have no investment in building an evasion shielder (despite my surprise when I tested a tower shield today and discovered functional evasion), but I feel that if impositions should be made, they should be made in such a way so as to not reduce options, which is exactly what is happening here. Intent to introduce a range of lighter weight class options (small and buckler shields) is not in fact an existence of them. At least with a weight restriction rather than shield size restriction, options are still on the table.

Zurrander
09-09-2014, 04:32 PM
Weight restrictions are a way of life for monks. Monks have to retain a light load limit in order to remain centered (uncentered states for pure monks are bad, bad places to be). Perhaps a limit of not more than a medium load or evasion turns off as well? I have no investment in building an evasion shielder (despite my surprise when I tested a tower shield today and discovered functional evasion), but I feel that if impositions should be made, they should be made in such a way so as to not reduce options, which is exactly what is happening here. Intent to introduce a range of lighter weight class options (small and buckler shields) is not in fact an existence of them. At least with a weight restriction rather than shield size restriction, options are still on the table.

While i like your logic, having a load restriction won't work... as evasion builds are often strength based (like most melee builds). My evasion tank has never even seen the medium load icon (I only know it exist because of my healer), so a load restriction would be no restriction at all (as most can sport Heavy armor & Tower Shield with no Load issues), which is why i suggested an equipped items weight restriction. I really do think that some mix of a equipped weight restriction and small shields that are attractive to evaders would be a compromise that could make everyone happy (or as close as we can get). Any thought's Dev's, I've obviously have no idea how difficult such a thing would be to encode or implement, nor do i know if this could cause some other issues. So any feed back would be welcome (especially from the Dev's). Its also fine if this just seems like to much work at to late an hour for to little payoff... though I for one would be willing to pay for the use of Heavy Shields with evasion... maybe that could be added to the Harper tier 1 (this would give me a reason to buy it). Maybe an enhancement could be added to Vanguard or Defender with a multi selector "Shield Expertise" - "Allows Evasion with Heavy Shields" or "Grants Tower Shield Proficiency" (the fighter version could grant +3 max dex with tower shields instead of the proficiency)

Propane
09-09-2014, 05:26 PM
You can be centered - duial weilding B-swords or Daxes -and evasion is fine.

Large mirthal sheild and you can't be centered and can't evaide....

Not buying it... tower shields - sure - they are a size of a barn door -

just saying...

4tonmantis
09-09-2014, 05:31 PM
You can be centered - duial weilding B-swords or Daxes -and evasion is fine.

Large mirthal sheild and you can't be centered and can't evaide....

Not buying it... tower shields - sure - they are a size of a barn door -

just saying...

I keep hearing people talk about these gigantic tower shields.. but the only ones I've seen that are that big are the Skyvault and .. I think there was one other but most of the towers I use are the size of a torso on a human.

EDIT:
By this logic.. because of the Skrag club, I think all greatclubs are too big and you shouldn't be allowed to evade with those..

poltt48
09-09-2014, 06:13 PM
Look im honestly concerned about one thing. I cant test the build myself atm so i was wondering 2 things...one has anyone played a swash with buckler running vanguard for the high crit and attack speed? and 2 is the combat style speed boost from Vanguard a different type of boost then SWF since it comes from an enhancement rather then a feat?? if so are swf and Vanguard going to stack? I would think single target wise it would make for a nice build...anyways if ya can get back to me on this be great thx. :)

The speed bonus does not stack but most of the other stuff in this and swash do. To point that swash shield bashing does as much or more damage then a pure pally with a tower shield. Kind of stupid how a bard/fighter can shield bash a small buckler for more damage with this tree then a pure pally with holy sword and a tower shield.

Zurrander
09-09-2014, 06:39 PM
I keep hearing people talk about these gigantic tower shields.. but the only ones I've seen that are that big are the Skyvault and .. I think there was one other but most of the towers I use are the size of a torso on a human.

EDIT:
By this logic.. because of the Skrag club, I think all greatclubs are too big and you shouldn't be allowed to evade with those..

I don't think its a size thing, as much as its a weight thing. Scrag greatclub weights 8 pounds, Tower Shields weight form 25-50 pounds. (Big difference)

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Greatclub_of_the_Scrag
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Shield_of_the_Azure_Valkyrie

-Avalon-
09-09-2014, 06:53 PM
This has been brought up before Seikojin, but Large shields weigh less than light armor (They are about half as heavy)... So it's was totally WAI for them to be allowed with evasion. Tower Shields on the other had weigh far to much, and shouldn't be allowed (and I'm pretty sure they weren't at some point?). The only reason for this change is that the Devs want to create a demand for small shields, and while i disagree with what they are doing, I understand that thought behind it. What they should do (this has been suggested several times) is to give "INCENTIVES" to evasion builds for using small shields, instead of forcing them to downgrade. So, once again Dev's make small shields more attractive to Evaders and you'll have accomplished your goal without angering a contingent of the community (however small that contingent my be). Because its just silly to have a 7-15 pound shield stop evasion, but a 10-12 pound weapon or 15-30 pound set of light armor allow it.

References... (for those of you that care)
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mournlode_Maul_(Level_16)
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Hero%27s_Leathers_(Level_27)
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Demon_Scale_Armor
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Aegis_of_Flame

Even allowing a total weight limit for evasion would be better then this. That way the weight of your equipment would matter for something (for once) and evasion builds would have to balance the weight of their weapons / shield / armor against each other. That would make the game more interesting, instead of just imposing more restrictions. Considering that the lighter (light armor-weapon- heavy shield) combo weighs about "7+6+15" you could create a 30-40 pound limit for evasion builds (only including worn equipment of-course). This way heavy armor and or tower shields would remain restricted, yet an evader that manages his items well could use a large shield + light armor (with a restriction on which ones they could use based on weight).

While I applaud your approach, and yes, with that logic evasion should work just fine, but that is the wrong approach... It isn't weight, but size/shape that makes the logic in this case (wielded items) as opposed to weight/maneuverability (worn items).

Light Armor is 'light' (duh), but heavy armor is 'heavy (another duh) no problem there, but consider that light armor has a nice dex bonus, because it is crafted for maximum maneuverability with whatever material is being used, it is intended for evasive activities. Medium and Heavy armor is not crafted this way, they are crafted for protection more-so than evasiveness, so evasion does not work with them.

With wielded items, the approach is not based on weight though, but actually almost purely a maneuverability standpoint. I can use a great sword and still evade, because I and post a two-handed defense stance much like a staff-block position, and roll out of the way of stuff with no difficulties on top of the ones I would have without the great sword. We've all (I think) seen a movie or a professional sword-fighter like Bob Anderson do things like that with great ease. However, trying to find a 'dexterous method' of evading while using a shield becomes exponentially more difficult as the size increases. Starting off with no shield = no problem, on up to a tower shield = almost impossible. Try wielding a large sled, now, roll gracefully... it doesn't work so well. You can roll with a buckler, that's fairly easy, a light shield becomes a bit more complicated, but it can be done... large shield? No, not really, we're up to that 3 foot long x 2.5 foot wide 'sled' size now, and tower shields are just really big sleds for size and 'wieldiness'...

has nothing to do with weight, a mithral tower shield is still friggin huge, and when you try to do anything more than simple side steps and such, then the wielder runs a great chance of falling prone due to tripping or it snagging on something, etc... you need to be larger to evade with one, but then, that makes the tower shield into a light shield or buckler (depending on size)... The weapon analogy would work properly if you could find a "non-shield" weapon that is larger than 3 feet long x 2.5 feet wide x 0.5 Feet thick (they don't exist)

XodousRoC
09-09-2014, 07:28 PM
While I applaud your approach, and yes, with that logic evasion should work just fine, but that is the wrong approach... It isn't weight, but size/shape that makes the logic in this case (wielded items) as opposed to weight/maneuverability (worn items).

Light Armor is 'light' (duh), but heavy armor is 'heavy (another duh) no problem there, but consider that light armor has a nice dex bonus, because it is crafted for maximum maneuverability with whatever material is being used, it is intended for evasive activities. Medium and Heavy armor is not crafted this way, they are crafted for protection more-so than evasiveness, so evasion does not work with them.

With wielded items, the approach is not based on weight though, but actually almost purely a maneuverability standpoint. I can use a great sword and still evade, because I and post a two-handed defense stance much like a staff-block position, and roll out of the way of stuff with no difficulties on top of the ones I would have without the great sword. We've all (I think) seen a movie or a professional sword-fighter like Bob Anderson do things like that with great ease. However, trying to find a 'dexterous method' of evading while using a shield becomes exponentially more difficult as the size increases. Starting off with no shield = no problem, on up to a tower shield = almost impossible. Try wielding a large sled, now, roll gracefully... it doesn't work so well. You can roll with a buckler, that's fairly easy, a light shield becomes a bit more complicated, but it can be done... large shield? No, not really, we're up to that 3 foot long x 2.5 foot wide 'sled' size now, and tower shields are just really big sleds for size and 'wieldiness'...

has nothing to do with weight, a mithral tower shield is still friggin huge, and when you try to do anything more than simple side steps and such, then the wielder runs a great chance of falling prone due to tripping or it snagging on something, etc... you need to be larger to evade with one, but then, that makes the tower shield into a light shield or buckler (depending on size)... The weapon analogy would work properly if you could find a "non-shield" weapon that is larger than 3 feet long x 2.5 feet wide x 0.5 Feet thick (they don't exist)

And while all that is quite logical, large shields (and amazingly, tower) have worked with evasion since the game's inception. I don't think this would be half the issue if reasonably good (and numerous) alternatives existed...they do not. I am very pleased that the Devs are putting all this developmental effort into balance and corrections, but I think the cart just came in a few laps ahead of the horse. It will take more than a few end-game shields to really replace the selection that currently exists with large (and tower, I guess).

A palatable loot update, including obtainable shields from very low Heroics through endgame, should really precede the uncoupling of evasion plus the bigger shields. I don't understand why these things have ever worked together, but they have for the life of the game. Granting alternatives first would go a long way toward mitigating the ill feelings of the evasion community, I should think.

For all that some things like this seem to be done out of order, DDO is a huge and complex game. It's full of systems. Some of those systems retain full functionality, others do not. I really do appreciate the efforts of the Devs here. I just think they are getting certain things done in an order that creates more tension than necessary.

-Avalon-
09-09-2014, 07:43 PM
And while all that is quite logical, large shields (and amazingly, tower) have worked with evasion since the game's inception. I don't think this would be half the issue if reasonably good (and numerous) alternatives existed...they do not. I am very pleased that the Devs are putting all this developmental effort into balance and corrections, but I think the cart just came in a few laps ahead of the horse. It will take more than a few end-game shields to really replace the selection that currently exists with large (and tower, I guess).

A palatable loot update, including obtainable shields from very low Heroics through endgame, should really precede the uncoupling of evasion plus the bigger shields. I don't understand why these things have ever worked together, but they have for the life of the game. Granting alternatives first would go a long way toward mitigating the ill feelings of the evasion community, I should think.

For all that some things like this seem to be done out of order, DDO is a huge and complex game. It's full of systems. Some of those systems retain full functionality, others do not. I really do appreciate the efforts of the Devs here. I just think they are getting certain things done in an order that creates more tension than necessary.

And I agree, alternatives should be present... we need a major loot overhaul/expansion, honestly. We have such great abilities as the Deity favored weapon system, but then, poor selections for those weapons Post Lvl 25 (minus Thunder-forged): Great Swords (2), Heavy Mace (1), Long Sword (1), Long Bow (2), Scimitar (1), Short Sword (1)... There really aren't any options! lol... So, while we have major customization options for builds, we have almost no options for items. And now that we have all the stats piling together onto a small set of items (with Epic Orchard, etc), we end up with everyone at 28 (-30 when they add them) using the same weapons, wearing the same armors, same shields, using same items... it becomes 'cookie cutter' for gear =/

So, yeah, I think we need a major update for gear alone, take some of the older stuff and start upgrading it, balancing it out, etc... One of the things I would love to see is Epic versions of the classic D&D items like Flame Tongue, Frostbrand, Dwarven Thrower, etc... the iconic items.

Gondandur
09-10-2014, 04:06 AM
I have to explore it fully, but what I dislike right now is that any build that intends to do "optimal" DPS while using a shield will either have to be:

1. Swash (and then not use heavy armor)

2. Paladin lvl 14.

Any other build will be outclassed by those two options. In my opinion, what shielders need is:

1. Crit enhancements in the vanguard tree.

2. A completely different combat style designed for them.

PS - Optimal physical / melee DPS.

Sorry but i think you missed that paladins must be still Lawful good and Bards must be Chaotic so pally/swash cannot happens, Fighers are the only class that can mix up with swashguys

BigErkyKid
09-10-2014, 08:16 AM
Sorry but i think you missed that paladins must be still Lawful good and Bards must be Chaotic so pally/swash cannot happens, Fighers are the only class that can mix up with swashguys

Did not miss it ;)

I said one or the other, you missed my "either".

patang01
09-10-2014, 08:53 AM
And while all that is quite logical, large shields (and amazingly, tower) have worked with evasion since the game's inception. I don't think this would be half the issue if reasonably good (and numerous) alternatives existed...they do not. I am very pleased that the Devs are putting all this developmental effort into balance and corrections, but I think the cart just came in a few laps ahead of the horse. It will take more than a few end-game shields to really replace the selection that currently exists with large (and tower, I guess).

A palatable loot update, including obtainable shields from very low Heroics through endgame, should really precede the uncoupling of evasion plus the bigger shields. I don't understand why these things have ever worked together, but they have for the life of the game. Granting alternatives first would go a long way toward mitigating the ill feelings of the evasion community, I should think.

For all that some things like this seem to be done out of order, DDO is a huge and complex game. It's full of systems. Some of those systems retain full functionality, others do not. I really do appreciate the efforts of the Devs here. I just think they are getting certain things done in an order that creates more tension than necessary.

Large and tower should never have worked with evasion to begin with. It's just silly. Asking for it to work with the changes to PRR and MRR is just asking for another super exploiter built where pajamas Shuriken Monks evade roll with large and tower shields. It's silly, silly and utterly silly. At some point we just have to say no to silly Monk/Pally exploiter builds.

4tonmantis
09-10-2014, 09:10 AM
While I applaud your approach, and yes, with that logic evasion should work just fine, but that is the wrong approach... It isn't weight, but size/shape that makes the logic in this case (wielded items) as opposed to weight/maneuverability (worn items).
...trimmed...

has nothing to do with weight, a mithral tower shield is still friggin huge, and when you try to do anything more than simple side steps and such, then the wielder runs a great chance of falling prone due to tripping or it snagging on something, etc... you need to be larger to evade with one, but then, that makes the tower shield into a light shield or buckler (depending on size)... The weapon analogy would work properly if you could find a "non-shield" weapon that is larger than 3 feet long x 2.5 feet wide x 0.5 Feet thick (they don't exist)

There are several greatswords that look like they belong in anime and are entirely too large.. and definitely qualify for what you're describing. The giant cleaver style.

Gondandur
09-10-2014, 09:11 AM
Did not miss it ;)

I said one or the other, you missed my "either".

Right, I have to check my goggles :P

BigErkyKid
09-10-2014, 10:09 AM
There are several greatswords that look like they belong in anime and are entirely too large.. and definitely qualify for what you're describing. The giant cleaver style.

+1 .

No more final fantasy in the game, please!

Zurrander
09-10-2014, 10:52 AM
Large and tower should never have worked with evasion to begin with. It's just silly. Asking for it to work with the changes to PRR and MRR is just asking for another super exploiter built where pajamas Shuriken Monks evade roll with large and tower shields. It's silly, silly and utterly silly. At some point we just have to say no to silly Monk/Pally exploiter builds.

The larger Light Shields are about the same size as the average Heavy Shield (in fact I prefer the larger ones, they look better)? and while I agree that a Large Shield should make it hard to Roll, Evading doesn't really follow that same reasoning. Evading consist of subtle movements, similar to dodge... not roll. And since Heavy Shields allow full dodge... Evasion should be allowed as well. Unless you think that Dodge should be fixed to have the same requirements as evasion? Since i find the idea of Dodging at +20% but not being able to Evade to be "Silly, Silly, and Utterly Silly" maybe that's an exploit as well... So there you have it friend, take my Heavy Shield if you like, but don't pretend that its far unless your willing to implement a dodge cap on Heavy Shields as well.

Heavy Shield - http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Battleworn_Shield_of_Cyre & http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Battered_Guardian_Shield & http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Blockade
Light Shield - http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Alchemical_Light_Shield & http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Chitin_Shield & http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Weathered_Targe

Their really isn't much of a difference in size, weight is a much bigger factor (as far as distinguishing between the two go)... Now granted, their are some Heavy Shields that are Tower Shield size and Vice Versa, but that's the exception, not the rule.

XodousRoC
09-10-2014, 11:36 AM
Large and tower should never have worked with evasion to begin with. It's just silly. Asking for it to work with the changes to PRR and MRR is just asking for another super exploiter built where pajamas Shuriken Monks evade roll with large and tower shields. It's silly, silly and utterly silly. At some point we just have to say no to silly Monk/Pally exploiter builds.

The second a monk equips a shield, the ONLY thing they have to offer is evasion. It turns off the stance benefits that so many utilize with monk splashes. They are functionally less useful than a rogue splash (which also offers backstabs and trapping skills).

Calling a shield bearing Pally with monk levels an exploiter is ill considered.

From my perspective, evasion is a feature that doesn't seem to sensibly work with "Heavy" shields or "Tower" shields...but they have for 7 years now. I'm not trying to imply that such functionality should remain forever, but it should really be removed after implementing alternatives in lighter shield classes that can functionally replace the large/tower shields in use today.

MRR is going to be huge, and should primarily benefit heavy armor/shield users. PRR is something that light armored toons already have in a lesser degree than heavy; this is their sacrifice for evasion. Asking them to give up what protection they have had for the life of the game without introducing lighter alternatives prior to it is asking for the segment of the player population that currently utilize that function to become far more irate than need be.

Silly, silly, and utterly silly is pulling the plug on 7 years of function without first introducing reasonable alternatives.

Oxarhamar
09-10-2014, 11:41 AM
All semantics on shield size/weight to evasion comparisons are kinda irrelevant.

We know the reasoning behind the change was player feedback the evasion tanks were too good and evasion should not work with the higher AC shields.

Not really much else to it.

Zurrander
09-10-2014, 12:43 PM
All semantics on shield size/weight to evasion comparisons are kinda irrelevant.

We know the reasoning behind the change was player feedback the evasion tanks were too good and evasion should not work with the higher AC shields.

Not really much else to it.

But the feedback said that they were too good in comparison to Heavy Tanks (meaning that Heavy's were just too bad)... with this huge buff to heavy tanks I would thank that the issue would be solved. MRR now allows heavy tanks to effectively no fail save against all evadable damage with no investment (Given them a min of -50% damage), which seems fair, seeing as evasion + light MRR still beats Heavy MRR against spell damage, yet Heavys should no longer get torn apart in seconds by caster mobs. The issue comes in when the Dev's decide to weaken the physical defense of evasion tanks (This Game Needs Buffs, not Nerfs). I mean come one, they aren't going to gimp every other class just so that Barbs can no longer suck in comparison, they'll just Buff the barbs! So I'm totally on board with Heavy Tanks getting the defensive buff they deserve, but evasion tanks shouldn't have to lose even more AC/PRR/"shield Selection" just to make Heavy's look better by comparison. The Logic should be that If I'm running a mission that's melee heavy (with a melee boss maybe) then I need a Heavy Tank (High Physical Defense/Med Magical Defense), and if the mission is caster heavy I need a Evasion Tank (Med Physical Defense/High Magical Defense)... What would be wrong with that? Its not like evasion tanks were OP to begin with, there was just no incentive to be a Heavy Tank. I that being me back to my Original Point, The Dev's need to give INCENTIVE for the build choice that want to promote, not lock out option.

1. Make Light Shields synergize better with Evasion Tank Builds! Give them "reflex/No. Fail on 1/dodge" (maybe a re-roll on one reflex save feature)
2. Make Tower Shield Count for more! Add "More AC/*3 PRR&MRR multiplier when blocking" (and give Paladins a way to get Tower Shield proficiency)

Choices like this could turn the Evasion Tank community to using Light Shields would making them feel slighted.

XodousRoC
09-10-2014, 01:21 PM
All semantics on shield size/weight to evasion comparisons are kinda irrelevant.

We know the reasoning behind the change was player feedback the evasion tanks were too good and evasion should not work with the higher AC shields.

Not really much else to it.

We know the reasoning behind the irritation in the evasion tank community ties into an almost complete lack of decent small shield/buckler options when they are forced to give up the larger shields they've been allowed to use since game inception. Lacking options to move into, this nerf should not happen.

Not really much else to it.

-Avalon-
09-10-2014, 02:39 PM
There are several greatswords that look like they belong in anime and are entirely too large.. and definitely qualify for what you're describing. The giant cleaver style.


+1 . No more final fantasy in the game, please!

Agreed, unless they plan to add spiky hair or ponytails that go beyond the waist (and knee preferably), then we should probably also not have FF weapons because then it is just sadistic to have the weapons, but not the look to go with it. In any case, Even Insanity is only about 4 feet long and 1 foot wide, by 2 inches thick maybe? You could still easily post a two-handed block and roll away...


The larger Light Shields are about the same size as the average Heavy Shield (in fact I prefer the larger ones, they look better)? and while I agree that a Large Shield should make it hard to Roll, Evading doesn't really follow that same reasoning. Evading consist of subtle movements, similar to dodge... not roll. And since Heavy Shields allow full dodge... Evasion should be allowed as well. Unless you think that Dodge should be fixed to have the same requirements as evasion? Since i find the idea of Dodging at +20% but not being able to Evade to be "Silly, Silly, and Utterly Silly" maybe that's an exploit as well... So there you have it friend, take my Heavy Shield if you like, but don't pretend that its far unless your willing to implement a dodge cap on Heavy Shields as well.

While I agree with you assuming your starting statement applies, unfortunately, it doesn't, so I cannot agree with the entirety. You are using straw man arguments here, the originating statement is that evasion does not require rolling (or jumping etc) because it is only subtle movements. I think you are confusing dodge with evasion. And the two are vastly different. If someone swings a claymore at you, you subtly dodge out of the way. If you step into an area laced with dynamite, you need to EVADE (much as you would if someone threw a Fireball at you, you make a reflex save to see if you can take less damage, and in the case of Evasion, NO damage). This might take the form of jumping behind a very large boulder that we don't see graphically (uses imagination, which I am against when discussing logic), or more likely, rolling and leaping quickly outside of the area... you don't just subtly step to the side behind your upraised finger and hide behind it lol... Evasion involves a great deal more movement than simply dodging.


Silly, silly, and utterly silly is pulling the plug on 7 years of function without first introducing reasonable alternatives.

It is only silly if the concept was good from the beginning. This is the trap that becomes almost the sole argument of exploiters in every game, "You didn't fix it for X time, so it must have been right! Now, give me alternatives to let me continue to be as awesome as I am now (even though I am breaking the rules to be this awesome)" You don't get reasonable alternatives to cover for loss of 'awesomeness' that shouldn't have existed in the first place. Secondly, Let's do your suggestion as a test: To keep your expected power level, we decide to buff bucklers and light shields by 3X... So, now, it is JUST as good to use Buckler/Light Shield as it is to use a Tower Shield. So, what point is there in Arcane Spell Failure augs or the elven/WF ability to lower ASF plus EK abilities to lower ASF just so melee casters can use tower shields reasonably? None? Well, considering the huge bump to int casters that want to melee coming with Harper, I'm sure that will go over well... I could go on for a long time on how many ways what you suggest invalidates or breaks various systems in this game, but if you stop and think about all the effects it would have on everyone other than evasion builds, you will catch on.


We know the reasoning behind the irritation in the evasion tank community ties into an almost complete lack of decent small shield/buckler options when they are forced to give up the larger shields they've been allowed to use since game inception. Lacking options to move into, this nerf should not happen.

I agree that we need more bucklers/light shields. Should they be as powerful by any means as Heavy/Tower Shields? NO. Much the same as daggers do not do as much base damage as great swords. To be as deadly as a THF person is, you need to use TWF, or have special benefits (such as from Assassin), etc... to compensate for that vast difference. It is not the Developers' responsibility to add power to smaller shields just so Evasion 'Tanks' can be as effective as they are currently while they are using a broken system that shouldn't have existed to begin with. It has always been the decision of the player to decide which they prefer: a character that mitigates damage through prevention, or mitigates damage through avoidance. What you suggest is that we give Evasion 'Tanks' both prevention and avoidance, and give Heavy Tanks prevention... how is this different than what we have right now where no one plays Heavy Tanks because Evasion 'Tanks' are so much better?


Not really much else to it.


Not really much else to it.

Just a pet peeve. We all seem relatively smart, let's respect each other and stop using comments like this as it insults the intelligence of everyone who reads it. It is the same as saying, "Common Sense", or, "End of discussion". If someone disagrees with you, it does not mean they are wrong, or that they are an idiot. And not one of us can say that there is only what we see, and nothing else, thus, "Not really much else to it." which implies that what we say and see is really all that matters, and your reality and perceptions are invalid or unimportant. So, please, let's stay respectful and debate things.

Jappy
09-10-2014, 02:39 PM
how much longer till lammina is open im tiered of waiting for it

tfc_generalKMK
09-10-2014, 02:48 PM
how much longer till lammina is open im tiered of waiting for it

based on past weeks probably tomorrow

XodousRoC
09-10-2014, 02:59 PM
Agreed, unless they plan to add spiky hair or ponytails that go beyond the waist (and knee preferably), then we should probably also not have FF weapons because then it is just sadistic to have the weapons, but not the look to go with it. In any case, Even Insanity is only about 4 feet long and 1 foot wide, by 2 inches thick maybe? You could still easily post a two-handed block and roll away...



While I agree with you assuming your starting statement applies, unfortunately, it doesn't, so I cannot agree with the entirety. You are using straw man arguments here, the originating statement is that evasion does not require rolling (or jumping etc) because it is only subtle movements. I think you are confusing dodge with evasion. And the two are vastly different. If someone swings a claymore at you, you subtly dodge out of the way. If you step into an area laced with dynamite, you need to EVADE (much as you would if someone threw a Fireball at you, you make a reflex save to see if you can take less damage, and in the case of Evasion, NO damage). This might take the form of jumping behind a very large boulder that we don't see graphically (uses imagination, which I am against when discussing logic), or more likely, rolling and leaping quickly outside of the area... you don't just subtly step to the side behind your upraised finger and hide behind it lol... Evasion involves a great deal more movement than simply dodging.



It is only silly if the concept was good from the beginning. This is the trap that becomes almost the sole argument of exploiters in every game, "You didn't fix it for X time, so it must have been right! Now, give me alternatives to let me continue to be as awesome as I am now (even though I am breaking the rules to be this awesome)" You don't get reasonable alternatives to cover for loss of 'awesomeness' that shouldn't have existed in the first place. Secondly, Let's do your suggestion as a test: To keep your expected power level, we decide to buff bucklers and light shields by 3X... So, now, it is JUST as good to use Buckler/Light Shield as it is to use a Tower Shield. So, what point is there in Arcane Spell Failure augs or the elven/WF ability to lower ASF plus EK abilities to lower ASF just so melee casters can use tower shields reasonably? None? Well, considering the huge bump to int casters that want to melee coming with Harper, I'm sure that will go over well... I could go on for a long time on how many ways what you suggest invalidates or breaks various systems in this game, but if you stop and think about all the effects it would have on everyone other than evasion builds, you will catch on.



I agree that we need more bucklers/light shields. Should they be as powerful by any means as Heavy/Tower Shields? NO. Much the same as daggers do not do as much base damage as great swords. To be as deadly as a THF person is, you need to use TWF, or have special benefits (such as from Assassin), etc... to compensate for that vast difference. It is not the Developers' responsibility to add power to smaller shields just so Evasion 'Tanks' can be as effective as they are currently while they are using a broken system that shouldn't have existed to begin with. It has always been the decision of the player to decide which they prefer: a character that mitigates damage through prevention, or mitigates damage through avoidance. What you suggest is that we give Evasion 'Tanks' both prevention and avoidance, and give Heavy Tanks prevention... how is this different than what we have right now where no one plays Heavy Tanks because Evasion 'Tanks' are so much better?





Just a pet peeve. We all seem relatively smart, let's respect each other and stop using comments like this as it insults the intelligence of everyone who reads it. It is the same as saying, "Common Sense", or, "End of discussion". If someone disagrees with you, it does not mean they are wrong, or that they are an idiot. And not one of us can say that there is only what we see, and nothing else, thus, "Not really much else to it." which implies that what we say and see is really all that matters, and your reality and perceptions are invalid or unimportant. So, please, let's stay respectful and debate things.

I have in no way espoused a belief that small shields/bucklers should offer the same kind of PRR/MRR that large/tower shields do. Quoting a portion of my arguments without the acknowledging surrounding material can make an argument appear to say things do they do not, in fact, say. Let's just clear a few things up:

1) I do not, and will not, have an evasion tank
-I didn't even know evasion worked with tower shields until it was pointed out to me in this thread and I did subsequent testing.
2) I don't believe it to be logical for evasion to work with large/tower shields
-This strikes me very much in the same vein as evading in medium/heavy armor. It should probably have never been.
3) There is an almost complete lack of small shields/bucklers to replace the shields being taken away.
4) I am not advocating an increase in small shield/buckler power to match large/tower shields. What I am advocating is a need for a proliferation of quality small shields/bucklers since they are so rare (and mostly underwhelming outside the 3BC bucklers) to allow for affected players to regear prior to the nerf.

Oxarhamar
09-10-2014, 03:59 PM
Just a pet peeve. We all seem relatively smart, let's respect each other and stop using comments like this as it insults the intelligence of everyone who reads it. It is the same as saying, "Common Sense", or, "End of discussion". If someone disagrees with you, it does not mean they are wrong, or that they are an idiot. And not one of us can say that there is only what we see, and nothing else, thus, "Not really much else to it." which implies that what we say and see is really all that matters, and your reality and perceptions are invalid or unimportant. So, please, let's stay respectful and debate things.

Simply stating the fact of the matter on why the change has come about.

Arguing the physics of weather a Charicter would be able to evade with heavy large shield is not going to change that.

I do think we need better light shield options. Which would be a better focus then bickering back and forth on the topic.?

Zurrander
09-10-2014, 04:14 PM
Avalon


maybe its just me... but I don't see how evasion is different than dodge (the words literately mean the same thing). And I have in no way used a straw man, I quoted directly form the arguments that I was responding to. 1. saying that heavy shields are to heavy (which they are lighter than light armor, so no). 2. saying that heavy shields are to big (which most are only as big as the large end small shields, so no). And once again, To say that evasion requires more movement than dodging is just outright false...

Evasion - escape or avoid, especially by cleverness or trickery.
Dodge - avoid (someone or something) by a sudden quick movement.

Not to mention that the games animation for Evading & Dodging are the same (and by that I mean there is no animation). So no, i don't have to "Jump out of the way" any more than a dodger has to jump back to avoid a side swinging great axe. Lets not pretend that evasion should have to play but real world rules and avoid the entire attack but dodge gets to continue not doing so. IF you can Dodge with no penalties you should be able to Evade with no penalties. Seriously, you've already won, evasion is getting nerfed regardless of what we say here. But I'm not going to set here and pretend like it make scenes.

XodousRoC
09-10-2014, 06:18 PM
I do think we need better light shield options. Which would be a better focus then bickering back and forth on the topic.?

I concur, Ox.

My only real argument here is that better (and a great deal more) options need to be presented for evasion tanks in the small shield/buckler line. Adding that before the nerf so toons can regear and adjust would save a lot of unnecessary angst.

The rest of this is specifically aimed at the Devs.

I would ask the devs (challenge them, really) to introduce viable small shields and bucklers for beginner to end gamer. Evasion tank is a niche build anyway, but pulling their ability to function (whether that function is within the current scope of our game belief systems or not) without first introducing alternatives (or doing so at the same time) is asking for that niche portion of the community to become agitated. They may get so anyway, but introducing options within the line they will be forced into would at least blunt that.

Please consider this carefully. You're altering the way a 7 year function has worked. I get that under the current game state (especially once U23 hits Live) this is something you need to do, but there just isn't enough out there for small shield/buckler use from 1-28.

Again, I respect the Devs' intent in what they are going about. Change is often unsettling. You won't please everyone. I have been fairly vocal in a couple of forums on how I disagree with some of your decisions (the Defender tree and its cap especially), but you are also introducing fun new dynamics (SWF, Swashbuckler, Vanguard--I REALLY like this tree--, etc.). Please don't take any of my arguments as attacks. You won't please me all the time either, but I really enjoy that you continue to try to create balance and invigorate our gaming experience through innovative ideas...especially considering the age of this game...

-Avalon-
09-10-2014, 08:56 PM
I have in no way espoused a belief that small shields/bucklers should offer the same kind of PRR/MRR that large/tower shields do. Quoting a portion of my arguments without the acknowledging surrounding material can make an argument appear to say things do they do not, in fact, say. Let's just clear a few things up:

1) I do not, and will not, have an evasion tank
-I didn't even know evasion worked with tower shields until it was pointed out to me in this thread and I did subsequent testing.
2) I don't believe it to be logical for evasion to work with large/tower shields
-This strikes me very much in the same vein as evading in medium/heavy armor. It should probably have never been.
3) There is an almost complete lack of small shields/bucklers to replace the shields being taken away.
4) I am not advocating an increase in small shield/buckler power to match large/tower shields. What I am advocating is a need for a proliferation of quality small shields/bucklers since they are so rare (and mostly underwhelming outside the 3BC bucklers) to allow for affected players to regear prior to the nerf.

I agree that there needs to be more 'quality' items all around. If you check one of my posts (I think in this thread even), you will see that the list of weapons available for Favored Souls to use as Deity Favored Weapons past lvl 25 (minus Thunder-Forged) is under 10 (for 6 different weapons, so 1 or 2 weapons TOTAL per type)... I wouldn't call that an acceptable variety that when you are one of the Forgotten Realms races you are limited to Heavy Mace, and there's only 1 of those (aside from TF) past lvl 25, and it isn't that good. For great swords, you are stuck with a choice of 2 (I think), and so on... So, yes, I am very much in favor of more items of quality to be found in the game.

Problem with 'quality' is what makes them have 'quality'?


Avalon

maybe its just me... but I don't see how evasion is different than dodge (the words literately mean the same thing). And I have in no way used a straw man, I quoted directly form the arguments that I was responding to. 1. saying that heavy shields are to heavy (which they are lighter than light armor, so no). 2. saying that heavy shields are to big (which most are only as big as the large end small shields, so no). And once again, To say that evasion requires more movement than dodging is just outright false...

Evasion - escape or avoid, especially by cleverness or trickery.
Dodge - avoid (someone or something) by a sudden quick movement.

Not to mention that the games animation for Evading & Dodging are the same (and by that I mean there is no animation). So no, i don't have to "Jump out of the way" any more than a dodger has to jump back to avoid a side swinging great axe. Lets not pretend that evasion should have to play but real world rules and avoid the entire attack but dodge gets to continue not doing so. IF you can Dodge with no penalties you should be able to Evade with no penalties. Seriously, you've already won, evasion is getting nerfed regardless of what we say here. But I'm not going to set here and pretend like it make scenes.

Trying to use actual definitions of words to define D&D mechanics will inevitably lead you astray. Yes, the two words in English mean nearly the same thing... In D&D they do not. Reflex save is your ability to move in such a way as to avoid partial damage from a spell or effect allowing a reflex save (to graphically represent this would be to shut the servers down any time 12 people went on a raid lol, WAY too much stress, so you aren't going to get the true representation) But, if you honestly believe that to avoid 100% of the damage from a 40 ft diameter ball of magical fire that is so hot that it can even melt some metals and disintegrate some rocks all you need to do is a subtle sidestep, then yes, there is no point debating with you because you firmly believe and love evasion working exactly as it does and nothing should ever change.

Additionally, if you believe that to dodge a downward swing of a claymore requires the same amount of dexterity and maneuverability that is needed to avoid 100% damage from that fireball above... then how come Evasion is not just granted automatically to everyone? My paladin can get 3% dodge, so he should be able to evade as well, they require the same things, and "IF you can Dodge with no penalties you should be able to Evade with no penalties" right? Or, do you mean that only having 3% dodge implies a 'penalty? Because, I've seen some monks and rogues in light/no armor with 10% or less dodge... What about the half-orc fighter with 25% dodge? That should grant evasion, though, right? We need some serious qualifiers here... because your method is WAY too open to interpretation... Or would you just settle for "Dodge" & "Evasion" are NOT the same, require vastly different skills and maneuverability (as proven by only a few people having Evasion, while everyone gets Reflex Saves and Dodge)... but, please, feel free to continue to argue Semantics vs Mechanics + Logic...

MangLord
09-10-2014, 10:41 PM
saying that heavy shields are to heavy (which they are lighter than light armor, so no)

This thread has completely digressed into nitpicking, but I wanted to add that a suit of armor, in real life, is strapped over a person's body in such a way that it's reasonably comfortable to wear. Not to say that someone not accustomed to being in a suit of plate armor isn't going to be tired after a couple hours. I had a chainmail tunic that I made out of mild steel as a final project for a jewelry class, and it weighed around 40lbs, but wasn't nearly as difficult to wear as a 40lb backpack full of textbooks, since the weight was distributed better. If you were to ask me to evade a basketball being thrown at me from 5 feet away, I'd never be able to do it. My ranger can have a full suit of chain on and jump 20 feet high and dance through fireballs, but he can also carry 500lbs of junk without being encumbered whatsoever. As far as a shield vs armor, any sort of shield weight is borne solely on the muscles of the arm, so I'd expect extending a 20lb shield with your forearm for longer than 10 minutes would become unbearable, no matter how much muscle mass is behind it. If you want to get into weight and encumbrance, then no one should be able to move with the amount of junk we happily haul through every quest, so we've lost touch with reality right there.

If you're willing to kill dragons whilst carrying several thousand pounds of gear and float through the air while carrying 300lbs of potions, 10 swords, a library's worth of scrolls, etc, etc, any argument based in reality has lost all footing. It would be just as easy for the Devs to say that evasion is feat anyone can take, or that no armor has unlimited PRR, but a line needs to be drawn somewhere or we may as well removes races and classes and all just be generic "heroes", because most everyone would homogenize into the build that works best for the current game and anything less than ideal would just gather dust.

But yes, I would like to see more named light/buckler shields for a wide variety of levels. It seems that heroic levels have been completely written off, but it would be nice. Maybe some new stuff being added to the seasonal events like Mabar and Crystal Cove? That seems like an option that would appeal to the entire player base, no matter what level they like to play.

I think just about everyone will have at least one character in their stable that will need a complete rework after this pass, so I feel your pain if your favorite toon needs to be reworked from square 1, but the +20heart seems to have been a one time thing. I'd like to request a BTA +20 heart, one per account, with this update.

MangLord
09-10-2014, 11:26 PM
Unlike Fighters vs. Paladins, I think Rogues have actually gotten a really lovely boost and very few drawbacks. Not sure where Manglord's rogue doom is coming from...Mang, can you provide more context?

I haven't really played with the Lammania changes on my rogue, so for all I know, the melee power supplement to venomed blades might be great.

Maybe it's just me, but I hate scroll healing, especially in the middle of a fight. I find that I get chunked down so fast while moving in slow motion trying to run away and use a Heal scroll. I grab ridiculous aggro despite having items, clickies and enhancements lowering my threat. I'd say half the time I'm not getting the benefit of sneak attack damage, and I try not to focus my attacks too much on a single enemy, but they just love me for some reason. If possible, I allow someone else to engage first and work the mob perimeter with assassinates and sneak attacks, but I always get a giant or two that turns around and starts obliterating me.

At epic levels I can usually find a few people to run with and take advantage of my assassin skills, but heroic levels can be brutal on the TR train and I don't feel like much has been done to remedy the problem.

I've personally found rogues to be hard to solo without being very clever with gear choices and a great deception item. I'd rather play in a party, but we all know how hard it can be to find a decent PUG, especially under level 10. I guess I'm just annoyed that its so difficult to use sneak effectively when not in a party. My main beef is not the amount of damage I'm doing, because that's clearly enough to draw aggro, but the fact that I can't escape it reliably.

Not to derail the thread, but I wanted to respond.

Bluegirl_Two
09-11-2014, 12:05 AM
I try not to focus my attacks too much on a single enemy, but they just love me for some reason.

Assassinate seems to drop off in epic content unless you are exceptionally well geared -- or so it seems to me.

I would assume that if you do not focus on a single enemy but are moving around attacking several of them before the initial targets are dead that it explains where some of your aggro is coming from.

-Avalon-
09-11-2014, 12:19 AM
Yes, and with the new Harper Tree, Assassins will be getting a major boost, as they can put all points into Intelligence for Attack/Damage, and enjoy the bonus to Assassinate as well.

XodousRoC
09-11-2014, 07:22 AM
But yes, I would like to see more named light/buckler shields for a wide variety of levels. It seems that heroic levels have been completely written off, but it would be nice. Maybe some new stuff being added to the seasonal events like Mabar and Crystal Cove? That seems like an option that would appeal to the entire player base, no matter what level they like to play.

Adding them to the events would be a start for sure. Not an end, but a good start since we could craft various levels (like the Cove buckler...though I generally consider that more entry level epic).


I think just about everyone will have at least one character in their stable that will need a complete rework after this pass, so I feel your pain if your favorite toon needs to be reworked from square 1, but the +20heart seems to have been a one time thing. I'd like to request a BTA +20 heart, one per account, with this update.

This would make perfect sense. It isn't like we all have every toon getting the stick here. I could personally live without a +20 heart, but for all those affected, this would be a very appropriate response.

psymun
09-11-2014, 10:20 AM
I think a single +20 BTA Heart of wood would make a lot of sense due to this quote from Severlin:


We have been going through player feedback and one of the concerns is that there is no compelling reason to level a Paladin past the early levels.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443355 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443355)

It's clear that a large reason for the changes to Paladin are to compel people to use more levels. Therefore, a +20 Heart of wood would make sense.

Zurrander
09-11-2014, 01:53 PM
I agree that there needs to be more 'quality' items all around. If you check one of my posts (I think in this thread even), you will see that the list of weapons available for Favored Souls to use as Deity Favored Weapons past lvl 25 (minus Thunder-Forged) is under 10 (for 6 different weapons, so 1 or 2 weapons TOTAL per type)... I wouldn't call that an acceptable variety that when you are one of the Forgotten Realms races you are limited to Heavy Mace, and there's only 1 of those (aside from TF) past lvl 25, and it isn't that good. For great swords, you are stuck with a choice of 2 (I think), and so on... So, yes, I am very much in favor of more items of quality to be found in the game.

Problem with 'quality' is what makes them have 'quality'?



Trying to use actual definitions of words to define D&D mechanics will inevitably lead you astray. Yes, the two words in English mean nearly the same thing... In D&D they do not. Reflex save is your ability to move in such a way as to avoid partial damage from a spell or effect allowing a reflex save (to graphically represent this would be to shut the servers down any time 12 people went on a raid lol, WAY too much stress, so you aren't going to get the true representation) But, if you honestly believe that to avoid 100% of the damage from a 40 ft diameter ball of magical fire that is so hot that it can even melt some metals and disintegrate some rocks all you need to do is a subtle sidestep, then yes, there is no point debating with you because you firmly believe and love evasion working exactly as it does and nothing should ever change.

Additionally, if you believe that to dodge a downward swing of a claymore requires the same amount of dexterity and maneuverability that is needed to avoid 100% damage from that fireball above... then how come Evasion is not just granted automatically to everyone? My paladin can get 3% dodge, so he should be able to evade as well, they require the same things, and "IF you can Dodge with no penalties you should be able to Evade with no penalties" right? Or, do you mean that only having 3% dodge implies a 'penalty? Because, I've seen some monks and rogues in light/no armor with 10% or less dodge... What about the half-orc fighter with 25% dodge? That should grant evasion, though, right? We need some serious qualifiers here... because your method is WAY too open to interpretation... Or would you just settle for "Dodge" & "Evasion" are NOT the same, require vastly different skills and maneuverability (as proven by only a few people having Evasion, while everyone gets Reflex Saves and Dodge)... but, please, feel free to continue to argue Semantics vs Mechanics + Logic...

You realize that this really is a straw man? I never said that one should auto grand the other, I said that the requirements should be (and are) the same. That super dodging barbarian wouldn't be wearing Heavy armor or using a tower shield now will he? That's because getting your dodge that high requires light or no armor (just like evasion). So if your Half-Orc barbarian wants to splash two levels of rouge then he can (and should be able to) evade all he likes under that same requirements he's dodging under. And stop pretending like AOE is the only type of evading, or that Dodging doesn't let you get out of the way of attacks that obviously hit you (Like your example of the Great Sword, But at point blank range on a side swing... Does this guy not have to jump back to get out of the way just as much as someone evading an explosion). Once again, evasion is getting nerfed (and I've made peace with that "my main switched to light shields on live a month ago"), but its dishonest to pretend that Evading is somehow different from Dodging. (and by a PENALTY, i mean having major restrictions on your max dex bonus, like those imposed by Heavy-Med Armor and Tower Shields)

So, just to be clear. Dodge at Full steam & Evade with this http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Alchemical_Light_Shield (6 pounds, Med size)
But can't Evade, yet still Dodge just as Well with this http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Battleworn_Shield_of_Cyre (10 pounds, Small Size)

Pretend that it makes since all you like, but its never going to. (was it the extra 4 pounds are the huge size difference that stops you from evading again?)

tfc_generalKMK
09-11-2014, 01:59 PM
You realize that this really is a straw man? I never said that one should auto grand the other, I said that the requirements should be (and are) the same. That super dodging barbarian wouldn't be wearing Heavy armor or using a tower shield now will he? That's because getting your dodge that high requires light or no armor (just like evasion). So if your Half-Orc barbarian wants to splash two levels of rouge then he can (and should be able to) evade all he likes under that same requirements he's dodging under. And stop pretending like AOE is the only type of evading, or that Dodging doesn't let you get out of the way of attacks that obviously hit you (Like your example of the Great Sword, But at point blank range on a side swing... Does this guy not have to jump back to get out of the way just as much as someone evading an explosion). Once again, evasion is getting nerfed (and I've made peace with that "my main switched to light shields on live a month ago"), but its dishonest to pretend that Evading is somehow different from Dodging. (and by a PENALTY, i mean having major restrictions on your max dex bonus, like those imposed by Heavy-Med Armor and Tower Shields)

they may be similar but in game mechanics they can't be more different dodge applies to everything

evasion is on reflex saves only

Zurrander
09-11-2014, 02:06 PM
they may be similar but in game mechanics they can't be more different dodge applies to everything

evasion is on reflex saves only

And that's about the only difference. (Not sure how that means they "Can't be more different").

tfc_generalKMK
09-11-2014, 02:41 PM
And that's about the only difference. (Not sure how that means they "Can't be more different").

ok that phrase might have been over the top sorry, but they are different mechanically and thus can't be treated as the same...

-Avalon-
09-11-2014, 03:52 PM
You realize that this really is a straw man? I never said that one should auto grand the other, I said that the requirements should be (and are) the same. That super dodging barbarian wouldn't be wearing Heavy armor or using a tower shield now will he? That's because getting your dodge that high requires light or no armor (just like evasion). So if your Half-Orc barbarian wants to splash two levels of rouge then he can (and should be able to) evade all he likes under that same requirements he's dodging under. And stop pretending like AOE is the only type of evading, or that Dodging doesn't let you get out of the way of attacks that obviously hit you (Like your example of the Great Sword, But at point blank range on a side swing... Does this guy not have to jump back to get out of the way just as much as someone evading an explosion). Once again, evasion is getting nerfed (and I've made peace with that "my main switched to light shields on live a month ago"), but its dishonest to pretend that Evading is somehow different from Dodging. (and by a PENALTY, i mean having major restrictions on your max dex bonus, like those imposed by Heavy-Med Armor and Tower Shields)

So, just to be clear. Dodge at Full steam & Evade with this http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Alchemical_Light_Shield (6 pounds, Med size)
But can't Evade, yet still Dodge just as Well with this http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Battleworn_Shield_of_Cyre (10 pounds, Small Size)

Pretend that it makes since all you like, but its never going to. (was it the extra 4 pounds are the huge size difference that stops you from evading again?)

Obviously you aren't understanding, I am not saying you directly said that they should auto-grant each other, I am saying that by your logic they MUST auto-grant each other.

If everyone can dodge (which they can, because even if all you have is 1%, you can still perform a dodge!), and under your logic that if you can dodge, then you can evade, that means everyone SHOULD get evasion... because they require the exact same skillset according to you.

Mathematically:
If a=b, and b=c, then a=c
a= evasion
b= dodge
c= everyone

If evasion = dodge (for requirements sake), and dodge = everyone (because everyone meets the non-existent requirements of dodge), then logically: Evasion = Everyone as well.

That isn't a straw man, I didn't set up some false originating position so that I could easily blow it down: you set up that basic set of variables, all I did was show how you cannot logically work that way. Dodge is vs physical attacks, and only requires simple movements in the immediate location (arrow shoots towards you, you sidestep; a WF swings his 2H across your middle, so you duck; he swings back at your feet, you jump a foot off the ground : EASY movements that almost everyone CAN perform, but gets increasingly more difficult as you get more encumbered or start wearing less forgiving armors)

Evasion is a special training reserved for rogues and monks (and some higher professions like Shadow Dancer or the most proficient Swashbucklers)... it requires someone of peak agility or someone to train extensively in that particular skill (hence it being one of the main bonuses of being a monk or rogue, there are others, but where Rangers train for TWF and bows, these guys get to evade)

As an example:
Rangers can TWF, rogues can evade. Everyone CAN TWF, but just not very well; same with Evasion, everyone CAN evade, just not very well (hence we all have basic Reflex Saves)... Evasion is equal in power to a bonus feat, and thus I have always argued that it should be available as a feat with a requirement of something like "Dex or Int 15" & maybe "Dodge (feat)"... but until then, it is as trained and skilled as Spring Attack, Improved Critical, etc... Not some simple ability that is equal to being able to walk without tripping over your shoelaces...

4tonmantis
09-12-2014, 04:35 PM
I think part of the thing that makes this hard to swallow, is that the primary ability stats are so far beyond what you would see in a normal game of DnD. We have characters with what would be beyond titan strength in tabletop. For all intents and purposes, a character with that much strength would not even notice the shield, let alone be hampered by it, especially if their dexterity were also at that level. We're talking about characters who are stronger than several professional weight lifters combined, more agile than any living creature on the planet..

There have been rules in the past in tabletop for dual wielding two-handed weapons. I am not certain but I think in tabletop the minimum Str required was 21 or something. Whatever the case, if we were talking about characters with stats anywhere close to being that of a warrior in our historical periods, then I would buy all of these arguments about "oh it's too heavy for that" or whatever.. but let's be real, we're talking about a bunch of min-maxed super humans.

Zurrander
09-15-2014, 09:19 AM
"Obviously you aren't understanding, I am not saying you directly said that they should auto-grant each other, I am saying that by your logic they MUST auto-grant each other." - Avalon

I'm not even going to touch your math (as that wasn't an equation)... Now, its obvious that logic isn't your subject so I'll try to explain this through examples.
You say that "by my logic they must auto-grant each other" with is to say "meeting Requirements = Auto-grant". Now it should be obvious why this is bunk, but i'll elaborate anyway.
I say that "meeting the requirements of one feat, means that you should be able to get other feats with the same requirements" with is to say "Requirements = same Requirements"

Examples
1. Most fighters meet the requirements for Bastard Sword Proficiency, yet its not auto granted. Bastard Sword Proficiency has similar requirements to Power Attack, yet one still does not auto-grant the other. Yet being able to get one, does mean that you can get the other!
2. Dex based builds often meet the requirements for dodge (the feat), yet its not auto granted. Dodge has similar (notice that i don't say the same) requirements to precision, yet having one does not grant the other, but being able to get one does mean that you can (very likely) get the other.
3. Improved Shield bash, Shield Mastery, & Shield Deflection all have the same requirements, meeting those requirements doesn't auto-grant the feat, having one or even two of these does not auto-grant the others. But! being able to take one does mean that you can take the other.

Now, making the argument that "you can dodge with 1%" is very dishonest. I've explained that the requirements for evading are similar to the requirements to dodging well (15% and up) are the same. not that the base min requirements are the same. Once again, to evade, or to dodge well you need Light or no armor, you cannot use a tower shield (or shouldn't in the case of evasion) and your likely to have high dex/reflex. now if you have a rebuttal (and i really hope you don't) then i would appreciate you actually refuting the points I've made, instead of making up an argument for me and then strutting around like a peacock when you've squashed it. And you might want to look up "Straw Man"...

MangLord
09-15-2014, 06:31 PM
As an example:
Rangers can TWF, rogues can evade. Everyone CAN TWF, but just not very well; same with Evasion, everyone CAN evade, just not very well (hence we all have basic Reflex Saves)... Evasion is equal in power to a bonus feat, and thus I have always argued that it should be available as a feat with a requirement of something like "Dex or Int 15" & maybe "Dodge (feat)"... but until then, it is as trained and skilled as Spring Attack, Improved Critical, etc... Not some simple ability that is equal to being able to walk without tripping over your shoelaces...

Not to split hairs, but rangers do get evasion at level 8 or 9. Somewhere in that range. It's early enough to be very useful, assuming you build for DEX.

My heavy armor cleric sometimes gets evasion rolls for certain spells, namely some cold and negative energy spells. Not so much in the bloated world of epics, but at heroic levels for sure. I think everyone gets a "basic" evasion where they can save for half damage, but the actual feat allows you to completely ignore damage on a successful save, and you only take half damage on a failed save with improved evasion. I could be wrong. That's just how I remember it working.
It kinda negates some of the ongoing argument in the sense that everyone can evade to some degree, but only an extremely nimble, unencumbered hero can have the agility and catlike reflexes to limbo under a lightning bolt like Neo in The Matrix. It makes sense to me. I also think that a magical shield should be able to deflect the same lightning bolt, but i guess that's where MRR will come into play.

-Avalon-
09-15-2014, 09:13 PM
"Obviously you aren't understanding, I am not saying you directly said that they should auto-grant each other, I am saying that by your logic they MUST auto-grant each other." - Avalon

I'm not even going to touch your math (as that wasn't an equation)... Now, its obvious that logic isn't your subject so I'll try to explain this through examples.
You say that "by my logic they must auto-grant each other" with is to say "meeting Requirements = Auto-grant". Now it should be obvious why this is bunk, but i'll elaborate anyway.
I say that "meeting the requirements of one feat, means that you should be able to get other feats with the same requirements" with is to say "Requirements = same Requirements"

Examples
1. Most fighters meet the requirements for Bastard Sword Proficiency, yet its not auto granted. Bastard Sword Proficiency has similar requirements to Power Attack, yet one still does not auto-grant the other. Yet being able to get one, does mean that you can get the other!
2. Dex based builds often meet the requirements for dodge (the feat), yet its not auto granted. Dodge has similar (notice that i don't say the same) requirements to precision, yet having one does not grant the other, but being able to get one does mean that you can (very likely) get the other.
3. Improved Shield bash, Shield Mastery, & Shield Deflection all have the same requirements, meeting those requirements doesn't auto-grant the feat, having one or even two of these does not auto-grant the others. But! being able to take one does mean that you can take the other.

Now, making the argument that "you can dodge with 1%" is very dishonest. I've explained that the requirements for evading are similar to the requirements to dodging well (15% and up) are the same. not that the base min requirements are the same. Once again, to evade, or to dodge well you need Light or no armor, you cannot use a tower shield (or shouldn't in the case of evasion) and your likely to have high dex/reflex. now if you have a rebuttal (and i really hope you don't) then i would appreciate you actually refuting the points I've made, instead of making up an argument for me and then strutting around like a peacock when you've squashed it. And you might want to look up "Straw Man"...

I would agree with you, but then there'd be two people wrong.

We're never going to see eye to eye on this, because your 'brand' of logic is not logic by my definition. Mainly because you refute my points by not actually touching my points. You use feats that must be CHOSEN to explain the likeness and similarities between something that IS auto-granted and something that you really have to go out of your way to pick up (actually choosing specific classes). So, saying anything about SM, ISM, Shield Bash, Shield Deflection... doesn't have anything to do with this. Dodge as a feat and Precision, both feats, so, no similarities there either... and then, talking about Bastard Sword feat and Power Attack... yet again, neither ARE auto-granted...

Let's get to something that actually makes sense: Comparing an Auto-grant to a Non-Auto-Grant... and I would love for you to actually find an example, because any time you find one, the Dev's will fix the code most likely... or explain to you why you are off your rocker, or they will let other players explain why you are wrong. If something that is FREELY GIVEN TO YOU has the same requirements as stuff that is not freely given to you, then there is something wrong with the system. The ability to dodge (not the feat) is your inherent ability to not stumble over your feet while attempting to not be where hazardous physical occurrences are taking place. Everyone has this ability, if you strap on heavier armor or start walking around with a cellar door strapped to your arm, it will make it more difficult, yes, but not impossible.

Evading a spell effect takes CONSIDERABLY MORE skill and activity, whether you wish to see this is up to you. If you strap on medium armor OR heavy armor, OR use a Heavy or Tower Shield, it will render your ability null and void until you rectify this problem. Note, that if you wanted, you could wear Medium Armor and use a Large Shield, and if you get the right enhancements, be able to dodge with 15% or better chance... but you still CANNOT evade! Just that basic fact should tell you, that you are wrong, in D&D and DDO, the two abilities are VERY DIFFERENT. If you wish to reply, please forward it to a Moderator, because I'm only going to see it as an attempt to troll. You refuse to see basic logic, even when explained in detail, and other people have even told you that you were wrong, yet you continue to try and use methods that don't even answer the points in question... when told that real world definitions do not apply, you even point them out... so, yes, all you are doing at this point is trying to egg on a confrontational post.

-Avalon-
09-15-2014, 09:23 PM
Not to split hairs, but rangers do get evasion at level 8 or 9. Somewhere in that range. It's early enough to be very useful, assuming you build for DEX.

My heavy armor cleric sometimes gets evasion rolls for certain spells, namely some cold and negative energy spells. Not so much in the bloated world of epics, but at heroic levels for sure. I think everyone gets a "basic" evasion where they can save for half damage, but the actual feat allows you to completely ignore damage on a successful save, and you only take half damage on a failed save with improved evasion. I could be wrong. That's just how I remember it working.
It kinda negates some of the ongoing argument in the sense that everyone can evade to some degree, but only an extremely nimble, unencumbered hero can have the agility and catlike reflexes to limbo under a lightning bolt like Neo in The Matrix. It makes sense to me. I also think that a magical shield should be able to deflect the same lightning bolt, but i guess that's where MRR will come into play.

Only Rogue 2, Monk 2, Ranger 9, and a few other cases, get true evasion (save for no damage or full), later, they get improved evasion (save for none or half)... everyone else gets reflex saves (shows up as Evade when it succeeds, but is save for half or full damage)... the problem here, and has been discussed at great length, is that everyone can dodge with some %, I think the maximum is around 36 or so right now, but not certain... Zurrander is attempting to say that Dodging and Evading have the same basic requirements... which they don't, it would be like saying that Dodging a punch in real life has the same basic requirements as, say, dodging bullets or lightning strikes (from clouds)... and, well, they don't... it requires a tremendous amount of skill, perception, talent, and maybe a degree of 6th sense or precognition even... dodging people swinging a fist or a sword? Everyone can do that... they might not succeed, but it's a very basic ability, kind of like walking... dodging a lightning bolt that moves at roughly 3700 miles per second? I'm not sure how anyone can think dodging a sword that moves roughly 20 miles per hour, would be ANYTHING like dodging lightning (yet again, 3700 miles per hour... or 185 times faster...)

But hey, everyone has their own beliefs, right?