View Full Version : fighter feedback and suggestions

08-29-2014, 10:18 AM
fighters are pretty messed up right now. the reasons are pretty obvious, but i dont have enough confidence in turbines awareness of this game to say that they dont need to be listed. so:

- this is a fighter tree, not a monk tree. if you feel the need to change the name to justify pulling all the **** out of here, then by all means do it.
- one cut. the vorpal aspect is useful for 2-3 levels for exactly 1 build. on the other hand its an average +5 damage per swing (on non immune or DWed enemies) for 60 seconds for only 1 ap. what ultimately kills this enhancement is the fact that it puts haste boost on cd for at least 40 seconds.

- weapon group spec: +1 dmg for 2 ap. this is just not a modern enhancement. either needs cost reduced or additional or increased benefit. still, it could be worse. it could be 2 ap for +1 attack.
- reed in the wind. not even monkseis use this. +1[w] every 30 seconds...might as well not be there. either you are already close enough to dodge cap that you dont need this, or you are so far from dodge cap that 20% uptime on this ability is not enough. dodge feat is a prereq, putting you closer to dodge cap and decreasing the value of reed. this does not belong in a fighter tree.

- tactics. either reduce cost by 1 per tier, or increase dc bonus. cost/benefit issue again.
- improved dodge: only works while in light or no armor (bad), requires dodge feat (bad). costs 2 ap per tier for 1% dodge each. more cost/benefit issues. debatable whether or not this belongs in a fighter tree period.
- weapon meditation: does not provide enough damage considering the time it takes to charge, not practical in group use, or with other short duration buffs being used. costs 2 ap per tier, each tier only lowers charge time PER STACK by 2 seconds. so for 6 ap i can sit on my butt for (only!) 20 seconds to gain minimal benefit. this is not a fun ability. more cost/benefit issues. debatable whether or not this ability belongs in a fighter tree.
- ascetic training. the ability version is immensely useful, even though it costs 2 ap per tier (in this case i believe the cost is justified considering it adds to reflex save and max dodge cap). the other two versions are useless and do not belong in a fighter tree. debatable whether the agility version belongs in a fighter tree, mostly because it raises max dodge cap instead of armor dex bonus (which means this only benefits monkseis and not plate wearing fighters).

- critical accuracy: to hit is meaningless. seeker is doesnt work on a d20 system because either its not needed (the to hit part) or you miss all the time until you crit which thanks to your seeker you are able to land, and your combat log is entirely misses and crits. this serves no purpose by existing.
- improved mobility: self defeating enhancement. improves max dex bonus and max dodge cap. to benefit from max dodge cap increase you can wear light armor (the lightest armor class that artificially caps your dodge). if benefiting from max dex bonus increase, max dodge cap increase is wasted. -acp is not worth the prereqs. requires dodge, mobility feats (very bad). requires improved dodge (all three tiers to max improved mobility (very bad)). only works while wearing light or no armor (bad). costs 2 ap per tier (12 ap total actually (15% of total ap) thanks to being married to improved dodge, to say nothing of the feats (very very very very very bad)), more cost/benefit issues (this one is insane).
footnote for improved mobility: it is possible to get 6% higher max dodge with 3 fighter levels, while with 20 rogues levels you cannot increase your max dodge cap at all.
- shattering strike: unuseable on all but a small number of builds (which all include several or more monk levels and are str/wis focused unarmed builds) because it is a wis based dc. has a terrible prereq.

- critical damage: married to a useless prereq, ultimately costs 6 ap (7.5% of total ap) for 3 crit damage. cost/benefit issues.

- a good death: 30 sec cd (too long), not enough damage on low hp target.
- keen edge: massively inferior to holy sword. leads to its main appeal being useful for 8/6/6 monkseis (thats bad).
- one with the blade: put this in a monk tree, it doesnt belong in a fighter tree.
- deadly strike: this is like a bad version of a good death, that is also worse in every single way. bad prereqs, uses charges from attack boost (as i understand it, never actually used this ability myself which should say something) which locks out haste boost if you want to use this (counter intuitive). long cd. runs off of action boost charges, while having a 5%+ chance of failure (bad). on hit effect is meaningless. on vorpal effect is meaningless and unreliable.
- alacrity: needs have more str (upgrade to +4 seems likely) and way more +tactics. id say +8 (instead of the measly +2 we currently have) at least. otherwise this is a good ability.

stalwart d:
- needs +x% addtional hate gen per core.
- overbalance: requires using a shield (bad if this isnt going to be the primary tank tree any more). on vorpal only (dislike abilities i have no control over and yet provide meaningful effects, like cc).
- last stand: having +con and +tactics on the same enhancement is meh because tactics are str based, and +2 is not going to be a game breaker. active ability is going to prevent party wipes once a year. should at least still have the heal on being hit effect if you arent changing it otherwise.

- item defense: we barely ever see oozes and rusties anymore, and most people either have a weapon just for them, kite them, or dont fight them. outdated filler enhancement.
- stalwart defensive mastery: costs 2 ap per tier, needs to cost 1. cost/benefit issue.

- armor expertise: +1 ac for 1 ap. costs too many ap. increase/change the effect.

- shield expertise: needs to provide more than just +1 ac per tier. dmg part is ok but could be improved if we assume a shield user is more likely than a dpser to take this.

- counterattack: cd is massively too long. expiration timer doesnt need to be quite so short. needs to do much much much more +[w] to make up for the fact that while shield blocking the tank is not dpsing even though the party is. needs additional +% hate generation. a lot.
- reinforced defense: debatable whether the expense is justified considering there are two obtainable versions which are married to each other and each cost 2 ap per tier, and only buff ac. might be better to change this to add prr (something this tree really lacks).

- reprisal: massively too long cd, doesnt provide enough damage, needs +x% threat gen added to effect, could also just change this to a guard. as it is this really sucks, especially for a tier 5.
- block and cut: either this should require a shield in which case it should be in vanguard somewhere, or it should be at most a tier 4 or in the kensei tree. currently i think this benefits paladins more than fighters because: 15/5 pal/ftr = holy sword+zeal+block n cut > keen edge or block n cut.

key takeaways from enhancements trees:
- there is too much of the monk class in this class. why bother with a distinction at this point.
- too many overly expensive enhancements, too many married enhancements, too many expensive married enhancements, too many feat feat prereqs.
- too many ineffective, practically unusable, pointless, or otherwise weak enhancements.
- not enough tactics support.
- some stalwart abilities require a shield, some do not. this is just sloppy. the whole tree is outdated expensive and mostly useless. on the other hand there is just enough good parts (which are all expensive and require you to spend many filler points to get naturally) that i would want to throw this tree more than its fair share of points. dont hang on to this tree "just because". have a good reason, a vision, and folow through with it or just scrap it. ive lived with 1 fighter tree for a long time. if vanguard is any good itll still be an improvement in the number of useful fighters trees.
- too many stalwart defender trees, too many monksei enhancements (are you thinking what im thinking?)
- with an expensive dps tree, an expensive (most likely) defensive tree, and an expensive middle of the road meh tree with the occasional very useful enhancement, fighters (i mean pure fighters, before even considering that harper is going to probably be required for tacticians) just straight up arent going to have enough ap to get what they need. 7+ racial (this is absolutely bare minimum, definitely less than id like to spend on racials (and i could only justify going with only 7 points on one race)), 41 kensei, 24-26 stalwart (in u23), x vanguard, x harper. so with minimal points spent on racial and stalwart enhancements, ive got 8 ap to spend on vanguard and/or harper. and i dont really feel like ive gotten 72 ap worth of enhancements at that point because of how expensive and underpowered these trees are. not that i want fighters to be buffed to high hell, but the +1 for 2ap ratio every step of the way has got to go.

as for the class levels themselves, they are pretty valuable but a little bit boring. hard to mess something so simple up, which is i guess why fighters have always been semi useful at least. would also like to see one or two unique effects added to the class levels. preferably that support tactics.

player feedback
if you have any additions, editions, or clarifications about what is wrong with fighters and why, please say something and be specific.
if you have any suggestions on how to improve certain aspects of fighters, please say something and be specific.
please be at least as specific as i was (that shouldnt be too difficult) so we can give devs good feedback.
do not give suggestions like give kensei capstone +80 melee power, death frenzy, and assassinate. it wont help anything.