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View Full Version : Master's Blitz Feedback, round two



Zoda
08-26-2014, 05:53 PM
Since the other one got closed. I'd like to hear some pros and cons about the mechanic itself compared to its version on live, the melee/ranged power number can be tweaked, I don't think that's the important question here.

Pros:
um???

Cons:
-Available to every build regardless of it having tactical feats or not (you could technically charge it with only sunder and trip, but if you do you deserve it!)
-Available during boss fights for the full party, making raids way too easy (and spellcasters by no means competitive dps aside from Joy)
-With the option to get 30 prr out of it and its new availability during boss fights even tanks will pick it over Sentinel for most raids (I'm sure I will, and I tank as many e/e raids as one can nowdays on Argo)
-It's technically a passive that takes like 30 seconds to turn on (if you have doubts about how fast it charges, I can upload a video of cleaving the test kobolds)

I think releasing it on live in this form would be a trainwreck.

Wizza
08-26-2014, 06:02 PM
I will just add a /signed because I don't want to repeat myself again.

This new mechanic is silly. 8 Blitzers beating on any boss you are ever going to come up with will be down in a matter of seconds and maybe a couple of minutes.

Spoonwelder
08-26-2014, 06:30 PM
I will just add a /signed because I don't want to repeat myself again.

This new mechanic is silly. 8 Blitzers beating on any boss you are ever going to come up with will be down in a matter of seconds and maybe a couple of minutes.

Agreed - blitz as it was/is works- it's great for soloing and/or good group play. The over melee destinies were ok album really showed well in groups/ raids. Furyshot is a superb raid finisher- EiN and he knockdown thing makes. GMOF really handy for most monks. The only problem with the pure destinies is the short duration and long cools owns of their destinies versus how easy it is to charge and maintain blitz. Tweak those and you may have a competition.

ie make fury charge on crit not just vorpal - that still wouldn't be OP vs blitz due solely to he cool down or have shadow charges add 5% damage boost to SA.

In the end the solution is simple turbine and is going to take some real work to fix.

mrunlimited
08-26-2014, 08:58 PM
There are a few issues with blitz that is currently live that people here dont seem to remember. With the on kill blitz charge, yes it helps balance blitz somewhat compared to how it triggered on attack on lamia, but it created a dynamic in groups that was not fun for other players. I personally have used blitz a good deal and in groups I just dont anymore. It is stressful to keep up charges running with pms and swashbucklers or other blitzers. On my swash buckler, ive been yelled at for using coup de grace by several blitzers wanting to keep their steam going and that just isnt a way to promote cooperative play. Also, you do not even need to hit things in combat to charge it which seems borked...

Aside from this, all other epic moments are just that, moments. Blitz does not need to have the on kill charge mechanic like it does on live, however it does need to have a limited duration. I know many people who are blitz users that are gonna hate on that statement but seriously, its overpowered now on live and on the test server and it is not because it has insanely high damage but because it doesnt have limitations.

I for one feel a super long cool down is not the answer though. I propose a different route; Have the charge requirement but lower it to say 20-25. In addition, have it last for one minute with a cooldown of say 3 minutes. That feels long enough to make boss fights not seem trivial, at the same time letting blitzers have their moments of awesomeness.

Another idea, maybe have the cooldown 5 minutes, and have blitz start at 10 stacks that decay every 5 seconds, and refresh a stack any time you score a vorpal.

EDIT: I dont like the vorpal idea after thinking on it, it feels too fow and not masters bltz. Change that to this, no charges required cool down at 4 min using successful combat maneuvers lowers the cool down by 2s each.

Nightmanis
08-26-2014, 09:05 PM
Since the other one got closed. I'd like to hear some pros and cons about the mechanic itself compared to its version on live, the melee/ranged power number can be tweaked, I don't think that's the important question here.

Pros:
um???

Cons:
-Available to every build regardless of it having tactical feats or not (you could technically charge it with only sunder and trip, but if you do you deserve it!)
-Available during boss fights for the full party, making raids way too easy (and spellcasters by no means competitive dps aside from Joy)
-With the option to get 30 prr out of it and its new availability during boss fights even tanks will pick it over Sentinel for most raids (I'm sure I will, and I tank as many e/e raids as one can nowdays on Argo)
-It's technically a passive that takes like 30 seconds to turn on (if you have doubts about how fast it charges, I can upload a video of cleaving the test kobolds)

I think releasing it on live in this form would be a trainwreck.

Oh I've got a random idea.

First 30 seconds it's 10% on hit, 20% on kill. After 30 seconds, it's the old style on kill. Maybe even make it a % on kill, 50% or lower.

Then again, that makes it somewhat problematic. If you're wanting to use it for trash cleanup it's ok if the party works together to bring the blitzer all the trash. If you're wanting to solo, it's a bit of a pain in the ashes.

I'll echo what I've seen many times. I do not envy the devs here.

Enoach
08-26-2014, 09:57 PM
After seeing some videos provided by characters much better suited for Melee DPS I can see that the 10% on Hit ratio will be a determent to them being able to preserve blitz or stack it to 10.

But of all the Epic moments only two ED's offer one that can be activated at the beginning of a quest and potentially be kept running to the end of a quest:
Legendary Dreadnought's Master Blitz
&
Primal Avatar's Avatar of Nature - However, I've had a hard time keeping this one going past getting to Size 4 and usually in less then 20 seconds after that i'm done. I have not seen many use this ability so there just might be a way to keep it going.

All other ED's have Epic Moments that last anywhere between Instantaneous and 3 minutes with 5 to 6 minute cooldown.

MB also has currently a silly requirement of 50 charges from tactical feat usage - but it does not have to be used against a mob with a hit/miss required, it can be used outside of combat standing around, it can be charged up before entering a quest again without actually having to use it against a foe. I'm all for removing this charging mechanic - I think GMoF - Everything is nothing should also be readjusted as far as earning charges as well such as having to actually use it against an enemy as well as reduce the charges needed by 1/2. Maybe MB should be the same, it only charges on a dice roll to determine hit/miss - does not matter if it succeeded or failed only that it was used against a Mob.

Now maybe MB should be adjusted in such a way that it falls in line with the time limit of how long it is active - Won't fix the 8 Blitzer's all activating at the same time, but would make the ability fall more in line with other EDs. Maybe something like 2.5 minutes with 5 minute cooldown. Remove stacks and have the full benefit from start to finish.

To me the flaw in the current blitz is that charges are based on Kills and not successful uses of tactical abilities such as Trip, Sunder, Stun, and SAP, as well as the cleaves. Maybe that is another option to tie MB stacks to use of tactical abilities - 100% chance to charge on a Successful Trip, Sunder, Stun and SAP and 33% Chance of charge on any of the Cleaves with successful hit (not graze) - Include all hits in a cleave as part of the calculation. This would still give melee a chance to maintain the stacks without having a chance for Kill Drama as well as maintain it in a boss fight. This will also give tactical melee types an advantage but still allow the pure DPS ones a chance to maintain it.

maddong
08-26-2014, 10:07 PM
Blitz, zeal, and unbridled fury should all be of limited scope and considered equal.

We need to nerf what needs to be nerfed. You can't balance everyone compared to current solo blitzes and fury shot and still have challenge left in the game.

Nerf us, throw a special promotion, and give out +20 hearts again.

Zoda
08-27-2014, 01:08 AM
There are a few issues with blitz that is currently live that people here dont seem to remember. With the on kill blitz charge, yes it helps balance blitz somewhat compared to how it triggered on attack on lamia, but it created a dynamic in groups that was not fun for other players. I personally have used blitz a good deal and in groups I just dont anymore. It is stressful to keep up charges running with pms and swashbucklers or other blitzers. On my swash buckler, ive been yelled at for using coup de grace by several blitzers wanting to keep their steam going and that just isnt a way to promote cooperative play. Also, you do not even need to hit things in combat to charge it which seems borked...


I still refuse to see this as a flaw of the ability, players with bad attitude have their bad attitude with or without blitz. Also there isn't a single quest that requires blitz to complete, espeically not with a party. On the other hand if you are in an underpowered party that DOES require blitz to complete a quest, it does promote cooperatice play. With the mechanic on live, the only time a good player loses blitz is when there are simply not enough mobs to kill, which means that your group is already bursting through that given quest and you have no need for blitz whatsoever. I disagree with the mentality that every player should be capable of doing everything without practice/skill/game knowledge etc.


Blitz, zeal, and unbridled fury should all be of limited scope and considered equal.

We need to nerf what needs to be nerfed. You can't balance everyone compared to current solo blitzes and fury shot and still have challenge left in the game.

Nerf us, throw a special promotion, and give out +20 hearts again.

I'd be cool with that.

Thayion516
08-27-2014, 01:54 AM
Master's Blitz: Tier 6 Epic Moment. 3 minute cooldown.

10% chance on any melee hit to get 1 stack of Incoming Blitz!

When you have 50 Blitz charges you may activate Master's Blitz: You gain 50 charges of Master's Blitz. Each charge grants +3% melee and range power. You loose one charge every 2 seconds.

While Master's Blitz is active you gain +15% Insight bonus to dodge and +25 Insight bonus to PPR.

I would be ok with this. 100 seconds of blitzing which gradually counts down (aka fatigue) with 80 seconds to try and build it back up (aka determination).

Honestly, this looks like what it should have been to begin with... or something close.

Zoda
08-27-2014, 02:07 AM
Master's Blitz: Tier 6 Epic Moment. 3 minute cooldown.

10% chance on any melee hit to get 1 stack of Incoming Blitz!

When you have 50 Blitz charges you may activate Master's Blitz: You gain 50 charges of Master's Blitz. Each charge grants +3% melee and range power. You loose one charge every 2 seconds.

While Master's Blitz is active you gain +15% Insight bonus to dodge and +25 Insight bonus to PPR.

I would be ok with this. 100 seconds of blitzing which gradually counts down (aka fatigue) with 80 seconds to try and build it back up (aka determination).

Honestly, this looks like what it should have been to begin with... or something close.

Gigantic nerf, but I'd still prefer something like that over the "passive" version that's currently on Lama.

Kalevor
08-27-2014, 03:50 AM
I think MB should be an epic "moment" like the other ones... it is silly that one epic moment last until the end of a quest. With the introduction of melee power to game there is no need to mantein this OP ability...

1) Make a 30 secs of xtra 100 melee/ranged power. Cooldown of 3 min.
2) no charge process.
3) muilti selector : +15% to dodge or +25PRR passive bonus all the time.

That's it. It's balanced to other ED. IMHO.


My 2cents

Edit: it is still too powerfull... make the multiselector last just when the epic moment is running...

droid327
08-27-2014, 04:46 AM
Well keep in mind a couple things about the dev's intention:

-They don't want to create a situation where Blitzers have to change their gameplay style while Blitzing in a group - ie, Blitz needs to be fully usable while just "playing normally"

-They want LD to be a viable melee option but not eclipse other melee destinies

-They're cool with the idea of LD having a fully sustainable Epic Moment, as long as the destiny is balanced overall

So, to that end, I think on-hit Blitz building is here to stay (and I support that mechanic, for the reasons the devs adopted it). Maybe the 10% mark needs to be tweaked, but probably not - people aren't reporting problems *keeping* their Blitz, only keeping it maxed, which, sad violin...

Blitz is going to be the highest DPS melee destiny - that's its portfolio. It lacks any defense like Sentinel, it lacks any selfhealing or debuffing like Crusader. It's sustained DPS, whereas FotW is burst DPS (and is also "sustainable" through an entire quest since it recharges). So yes, if you have a full squad of blitzers, they're going to smack down huge-bag-of-HP bosses the most efficiently. But with naught but Cocoon for heals, the question is how they'll stay alive themselves.

Honestly, I think current Blitz OP-ness (heh, p-ness) is more a symptom of the overreach of Melee Power. If it wasn't for the huge across-the-board boost all melees are getting, then Blitz would just take you from good to great, not from great to God-mode.

Lonnbeimnech
08-27-2014, 05:02 AM
Master's Blitz Epic Moment : Active Ability: (Cooldown 5 mins) Activate For 150 seconds, you gain +50% dodge or 30 PRR and deal +100% melee damage that decrements by 10% every 15 seconds.

Zoda
08-27-2014, 05:57 AM
Blitz is going to be the highest DPS melee destiny - that's its portfolio. It lacks any defense like Sentinel, it lacks any selfhealing or debuffing like Crusader. It's sustained DPS, whereas FotW is burst DPS (and is also "sustainable" through an entire quest since it recharges). So yes, if you have a full squad of blitzers, they're going to smack down huge-bag-of-HP bosses the most efficiently. But with naught but Cocoon for heals, the question is how they'll stay alive themselves.


I don't see why it has to be highest melee dps destiny by definition. Saying that it lacks defense is complete BS, it gives 50 hp, Thick Skinned, Unstoppable, Unmovable and caps dodge or gives 30% prr while blitz is active, now I don't know what game are you playing, but that's amazing defense in DDO. I'd argue that Unstoppable is one of the best defensive abilities in the game.

Saying that they only have Coccoon for selfheal is also incorrect. First of all we are all aware how Bladeforged is completely busted (and if there is one thing that needs a nerf in ddo I vote that recon SLA before anything else). Many melee classes have access to cure spells which can cover heals on the highest level, for example my build with 12 bard levels can stand toe to toe with any e/e raidboss just with cures and coccoon (and it's a dwarf, so no improved recovery line, a pure human paladin will outclass all my defense/dps/healing by far after the changes). Other than cures, it's super easy now to get the 40 UMD for heal scrolls, and there is always the option to use SF pots which can be used with great effificency if you build around them (and there are store healing elixirs too). Now if all that is not enough, you can always look for a healer - I know, I know... so 2011. The complete absence of healers just show how EVERYTHING can selfheal just fine, special thanks to devs for that, you made an MMO that doesn't require healers whatsoever - and then you talk about how you are trying to promote grouping. Ironic if you think about it.

droid327
08-27-2014, 06:38 AM
I don't see why it has to be highest melee dps destiny by definition. Saying that it lacks defense is complete BS, it gives 50 hp, Thick Skinned, Unstoppable, Unmovable and caps dodge or gives 30% prr while blitz is active, now I don't know what game are you playing, but that's amazing defense in DDO. I'd argue that Unstoppable is one of the best defensive abilities in the game.


I don't think any of the core ABs count as "defense". Dodge-based melee are going to be at or near Dodge cap anyway, so Blitz isn't going to add much extra defense. So 30 PRR is all the tree can really speak for in terms of sustained damage mitigation - compare to 30 PRR and DR 10/Epic just from one core in Sentinel, plus 35 Resist, 40% Fort, +3 Saves, another 15 PRR with shield, and sizeable AC bonuses.

LD is the tree most singularly focused around sustained weapon DPS, the most purely martial tree. That's why its, expectedly, the biggest boost to your weapon DPS.

ddo.rsmo.pt
08-27-2014, 06:55 AM
I agree that Blitz should be more like Righteous Zeal: a burst of anger that eventually slows down to a stop, until it is charged again.

Carry on.

Pescha
08-27-2014, 06:59 AM
It was already bad enough on lammania compared to Masters Blitz on live due to it being dependent

on whether you have a high dps output or not which favours the latter by a lot, that means

if you have a low dps output to begin with you will favor more from it than someone who is 1-2 shoting on EE difficulty.

Not signed.

Zoda
08-27-2014, 07:49 AM
I don't think any of the core ABs count as "defense".

Think it or not, they are. They prevent you from dying. Especially Unstoppable. Maybe dodge based melees (I didn't know that's a thing, but so be it), would get capped dodge without blitz if they wanted but that requires investment in form of AP/gear/twists/whatnot that gets freed ub by blitz (or they simply pick 30 prr and laugh at players using sentinel)

And who cares about Sentinel's defense anyway, it's dps is nonsense, and it's defense is barely better than LD's, not to mention that more defense is absolutely not required as long as the game is in it's current state. Dr 10 is meaningless because of the shadowscale, resists are meaningless because noone gives a damn about magic damage: you either evade it or laugh at it because of your mmr. 40% extra fort is unnecessary, +3 saves as well, the shield bonus prr is an easy twist if you have a shield (and you do it for the doublestrike not the prr anyway...), AC is meaningless in endgame.

All the you get from sentinel that LD lacks is a chunk of hp, renewal and a completely unreliable knockdown immunity. All that in exchange for uber dps, thick skinned, unstoppable, unmovable.

And then I haven't even considered the interaction between advancing blows and purple dragon focus, which is an incredibly powerful defensive combination for a grand total of 3 AP.

Thrudh
08-27-2014, 07:58 AM
Blitz needs be an epic "MOMENT"... with a limited duration, and a semi-long cooldown.

You could make it even more powerful if you want, as long as it's duration is limited. It shouldn't be a "all quest long" epic "moment".

Thrudh
08-27-2014, 08:01 AM
They're cool with the idea of LD having a fully sustainable Epic Moment, as long as the destiny is balanced overall

They shouldn't be... It's a bad idea. Epic Moments should be powerful but limited duration. They could add more DPS in other LD abilities if they think limiting blitz hurts the LD destiny too much.

Pescha
08-27-2014, 08:45 AM
They shouldn't be... It's a bad idea. Epic Moments should be powerful but limited duration. They could add more DPS in other LD abilities if they think limiting blitz hurts the LD destiny too much.

Blitz is probably the most powerful tier 6 however it isn't OP as it requires skill to utilize it properly. Although some builds do have it easier than others when it comes to getting few stacks and keeping them.

In a group without any one being carried and everyone monitoring the kill count during quest you need to either plan ahead for the right moment to push the button or have the survivability to break off group and get your first few hits.

Blitz isn't the problem, people whining about it are the problem.

droid327
08-27-2014, 09:08 AM
dodge based melees (I didn't know that's a thing, but so be it),

Are any melees *not* Dodge based right now? That was the whole point of Armor Up...



And then I haven't even considered the interaction between advancing blows and purple dragon focus, which is an incredibly powerful defensive combination for a grand total of 3 AP.

Err...how does +1 damage on crit have anything to do with 15 temp HP when you use an AB?

Pescha
08-27-2014, 09:26 AM
Are any melees *not* Dodge based right now? That was the whole point of Armor Up...



Err...how does +1 damage on crit have anything to do with 15 temp HP when you use an AB?

I think advancing blows is considered a action boost which works pretty well in conjunction with purple dragon focus... I have never tested it so far but i think he could be right.

Zoda
08-27-2014, 09:59 AM
In a group without any one being carried and everyone monitoring the kill count during quest you need to either plan ahead for the right moment to push the button or have the survivability to break off group and get your first few hits.

Blitz isn't the problem, people whining about it are the problem.

Agreed. But I still rather see it getting nerfed than buffed (and I consider the current Lama version a HUGE buff). I'm 100% fine with the live version of it.


I think advancing blows is considered a action boost which works pretty well in conjunction with purple dragon focus... I have never tested it so far but i think he could be right.

Exactly. I haven't used it in in u22, but I doubt there was any change on that front.

Seikojin
08-27-2014, 10:56 AM
Well keep in mind a couple things about the dev's intention:

-They don't want to create a situation where Blitzers have to change their gameplay style while Blitzing in a group - ie, Blitz needs to be fully usable while just "playing normally"

-They want LD to be a viable melee option but not eclipse other melee destinies

-They're cool with the idea of LD having a fully sustainable Epic Moment, as long as the destiny is balanced overall

So, to that end, I think on-hit Blitz building is here to stay (and I support that mechanic, for the reasons the devs adopted it). Maybe the 10% mark needs to be tweaked, but probably not - people aren't reporting problems *keeping* their Blitz, only keeping it maxed, which, sad violin...

Blitz is going to be the highest DPS melee destiny - that's its portfolio. It lacks any defense like Sentinel, it lacks any selfhealing or debuffing like Crusader. It's sustained DPS, whereas FotW is burst DPS (and is also "sustainable" through an entire quest since it recharges). So yes, if you have a full squad of blitzers, they're going to smack down huge-bag-of-HP bosses the most efficiently. But with naught but Cocoon for heals, the question is how they'll stay alive themselves.

Honestly, I think current Blitz OP-ness (heh, p-ness) is more a symptom of the overreach of Melee Power. If it wasn't for the huge across-the-board boost all melees are getting, then Blitz would just take you from good to great, not from great to God-mode.

Well, I don't mind the build up mechanic of Lam either. I think however they should remove the decrement timer on the stacks and have an overall moment timer. I think having it have 2 to 3 minutes of blitz time is enough. 2 for tactical reasons, 3 for casual reasons.

the_one_dwarfforged
08-27-2014, 03:43 PM
definitely needs to have the prr version.


when activating blitz you gain 1 stack every time you you successfully use a tactical ability (imp/trip, imp/sunder, stunning blow, hamstring, imp feint, slicing blow, sap, stunning fist (i grudgingly list that one...)). improved sunder, slicing blow, and sap help give builds/players with lower dcs competitive blitzing ability due to the debuff of improved sunder and the no save nature of slicing blow and sap. also gives players a choice: spend more feats to potentially maintain more stacks of blitz, or spend those feats on other stuff?

that helps limit who will be able to use this ability (only one of those feats a monkcher can use with ranged is improved feint i think, but not sure never tried it) since some builds priorities and feat allotment will not allow them to take many of the tactical feats, and even if they can they may not be able to use them effectively.

additionally since you cant actually stun a redname it would improve the value of improved sunder, slicing blow, and feint (im assuming bosses can be feinted if you have sufficient dc?) to help maintain blitz at moderate stacks against rednames (unless a stun can be successful on a boss without actually stunning it, which im ok with too).

this helps put some of the tactical emphasis back into dreadnaught and fighters, who can take all of these tactical feats (at a cost, no way you could fit two fighting styles and several tactical feats despite their feat pool), without completely screwing over rangers monks barbs pallies and rogues who should be able to take some of those feats if they deem it meaningful enough.

the fact that it would only be on a *successful* usage emphasizes actually having either a meaningful dc or a feat to spend on slicing blow (which needs to be improved) which means not every blitz build will have it all, keeping average number of stacks in check but still allowing it to be maintained to clear trash or dps a boss provided you invest in it. also, keep combat expertise prereq where applicable.

with this method i think a slight bump from +100mp at 10 stacks would be reasonable but not necessary.


what was on lamma was a bad idea compared to live. at least on live there is an opportunity cost, which in meaningful situations does require team work. in non meaningful situations blitz is not needed at all ever. having a 10% chance to build stacks is bad for several reasons.

1) the player doesnt really have control over the ability. you can argue that the player can switch to twf/swf for more hit and more chances to build a stack, or use carnifex for 60 seconds every quest, but i think this is clearly unfair and undesirable.

2) with the short durations of stacks, many times you might get unlucky and run out of blitz before building a second stack. i am not interested in having an ability which relies totally on luck every single time i use it.

3) if the only way to lose blitz is to not get a 2nd stack in the first 10 seconds after activating it (this is a pointlessly annoying development), then...why would any melee ever not use blitz? please provide me with a situation where you would actually consider using blitz in the first place but might decide to use something else, where you would have ANY real reason to not choose blitz with this implementation. currently that situation is raids which may not have sufficient trash to maintain a blitz. so you might switch to fury or crusader for obvious reasons because of the on kill mechanic. if blitz charges for free there will be no reason to not use it.

blitz as on lamma will be random. it will be generic. it will be boring. it will be frustrating. and it will be too easy.

Qhualor
08-27-2014, 03:54 PM
is Blitz the only epic moment that is continuous and isn't subject to a duration timer despite the description? ive never tried all of them, but I know quite a few actually stop after 15-30 seconds and are restricted to a 1 minute to 10 minute cooldown before able to use them again.

BDog77
08-27-2014, 04:03 PM
is Blitz the only epic moment that is continuous and isn't subject to a duration timer despite the description?

Yes.

But this, this is probably the funniest thing I have ever read about Blitz right here


Blitz is probably the most powerful tier 6 however it isn't OP as it requires skill to utilize it properly.

'Splain to me about all this skill again. Skill to hit the MOB at just the right moment? Skill to know when the MOB is within 1 swing of dead? Skill to race around and complain loudly when someone else kills a MOB? Skill building your character? (actually, this might actually use a skill, reading).

Thanks for the laugh, though, I appreciate it.

maddmatt70
08-27-2014, 09:27 PM
Since the other one got closed. I'd like to hear some pros and cons about the mechanic itself compared to its version on live, the melee/ranged power number can be tweaked, I don't think that's the important question here.

Pros:
um???

Cons:
-Available to every build regardless of it having tactical feats or not (you could technically charge it with only sunder and trip, but if you do you deserve it!)
-Available during boss fights for the full party, making raids way too easy (and spellcasters by no means competitive dps aside from Joy)
-With the option to get 30 prr out of it and its new availability during boss fights even tanks will pick it over Sentinel for most raids (I'm sure I will, and I tank as many e/e raids as one can nowdays on Argo)
-It's technically a passive that takes like 30 seconds to turn on (if you have doubts about how fast it charges, I can upload a video of cleaving the test kobolds)

I think releasing it on live in this form would be a trainwreck.

The Lammania form is an improvement over the live form of Blitz. Hopefully they tweak it some more, but really I just want the devs to remove it from the game and make the LD epic moment on par with Fury of the Wild and Grandmaster of Flowers which are what epic moments should be.

Pescha
08-28-2014, 03:54 AM
The Lammania form is an improvement over the live form of Blitz. Hopefully they tweak it some more, but really I just want the devs to remove it from the game and make the LD epic moment on par with Fury of the Wild and Grandmaster of Flowers which are what epic moments should be.

If they intend to make it on par with fury of the wild then i demand dreadnought to have the same adrenaline overload clicky as well (for example).

Wizza
08-28-2014, 04:07 AM
If they intend to make it on par with fury of the wild then i demand dreadnought to have the same adrenaline overload clicky as well (for example).

Nosense. Even without Blitz, LD is a strong Destiny. Lay waste, Momentum swing are considered must haves even if you are not in LD. Pulverizer is great, Extra action boost is great. Anvil too. The passives are probably the best passives among all the other Epic Destinies.

Master's Blitz is just the icing on the cake.

Zoda
08-28-2014, 04:13 AM
The Lammania form is an improvement over the live form of Blitz.

If by improvement you mean it's way more powerful than on live, yes, you are correct.


Nosense. Even without Blitz, LD is a strong Destiny. Lay waste, Momentum swing are considered must haves even if you are not in LD. Pulverizer is great, Extra action boost is great. Anvil too. The passives are probably the best passives among all the other Epic Destinies.

Master's Blitz is just the icing on the cake.

Indeed it is a strong destiny even without blitz. If it wasn't, melees would switch to whatever else destiny for raids where they can't blitz. But they don't.

Eth
08-28-2014, 04:44 AM
Nosense. Even without Blitz, LD is a strong Destiny. Lay waste, Momentum swing are considered must haves even if you are not in LD. Pulverizer is great, Extra action boost is great. Anvil too. The passives are probably the best passives among all the other Epic Destinies.

Master's Blitz is just the icing on the cake.

+1W while action boost are active. +50% helpless damage.
20 second cooldown on action boosts instead of 30.
20 fort save clicky (awesome in EE deathwyrm and WGU).
25% damage reduction clicky.
Unstoppable (basically an 'Extra Harpers Pin' with shorter cooldown).
+6 Seeker damage.
almost permanent +5 damage with a good crit. range (so basically everyone nowadays).
.5W extra for power attack
+1 crit. multi on 19-20

I prefer LD over Fury 99% of the time even if I'm not intending to blitz.

Nightmanis
08-28-2014, 06:03 AM
+1W while action boost are active. +50% helpless damage.
20 second cooldown on action boosts instead of 30.
20 fort save clicky (awesome in EE deathwyrm and WGU).
25% damage reduction clicky.
Unstoppable (basically an 'Extra Harpers Pin' with shorter cooldown).
+6 Seeker damage.
almost permanent +5 damage with a good crit. range (so basically everyone nowadays).
.5W extra for power attack
+1 crit. multi on 19-20

I prefer LD over Fury 99% of the time even if I'm not intending to blitz.

Combat brute and the reduced cool down on boosts alone are worth running in LD on most builds. For a while I was even taking the damage most from LD just to have more boosts chaining together.

Nightmanis
08-28-2014, 06:17 AM
Just to suggest it:

Why not remove both the prr and dodge versions, and only allow a version with no defensive benefit. That way it's not over stepping any boundaries on the other destinies. Yes dread still will grant some nice defensive buffs, but now blitz won't.

Zoda
08-28-2014, 07:05 AM
Just to suggest it:

Why not remove both the prr and dodge versions, and only allow a version with no defensive benefit. That way it's not over stepping any boundaries on the other destinies. Yes dread still will grant some nice defensive buffs, but now blitz won't.

The problem is the new mechanic not the 30 prr...

Here is the thing: a certain group of players claim that blitz is gamebreaking/unfun/whatever, so they ask for nerf. The response is that devs double every melee's damage output, while taking away a tiny bit from blitzers AND making it available to everyone, EVERY TIME, this time without any skill restriction (if it was so easy to blitz, certain players wouldn't cry for kills in groups). Okay, let less capable players blitz too, fine, I hate it, but I can swallow that, but turning every single raidboss fight into a 2 minutes cakewalk is wrong on way too many levels. What's next? Multiplying raidboss hp by ten just to compensate for blitz? But oh hey, then other destinies are suddenly not competitive again, lets nerf blitz by buffing it again? Imagine a raid like FOT or Fire on Thunder Peak where every melee gets 10 stacks of blitz nonstop.

In case if it's not crystal clear to anyone, I'm not speaking up against a nerf on blitz, but against a major buff. Trust me, we won't notice the difference in melee power or the extra prr, what we will notic is the damage output of 8-12 blitzers melting e/e raidbosses.

This game doesn't have a whole lot of content that the best players can't sleepwalk through, this change would remove the remaining ones, and I don't see how is that beneficial to casuals either.

bloodnose13
08-28-2014, 07:13 AM
Master's Blitz: Tier 6 Epic Moment. 3 minute cooldown.

10% chance on any melee hit to get 1 stack of Incoming Blitz!

When you have 50 Blitz charges you may activate Master's Blitz: You gain 50 charges of Master's Blitz. Each charge grants +3% melee and range power. You loose one charge every 2 seconds.

While Master's Blitz is active you gain +15% Insight bonus to dodge and +25 Insight bonus to PPR.

I would be ok with this. 100 seconds of blitzing which gradually counts down (aka fatigue) with 80 seconds to try and build it back up (aka determination).

Honestly, this looks like what it should have been to begin with... or something close.

well kinda like parts of this idea, but i would change it a bit:

Master's Blitz: Tier 6 Epic Moment. 3 minute cooldown. ----Ok

5% chance on any melee hit to get 1 stack of Incoming Blitz! ----Ok i think but it may still give charges too often 5% may be needed

When you have 50 Blitz charges you may activate Master's Blitz: You gain Master's Blitz for 30 seconds, in those 30 seconds each hit gives you charge, each charge grants +1 melee and range power, after first 30 second effect ends, you stop gaining charges, and they start decaying one every 4 seconds, caps at 50. ---- the big change i think, it would make it less overpowered and not that powerfull for everyone accross the board.

no defense bonuses. its a dps ability not a survival boost.

in this way effect would not be best for everyone, as building a charge to use it would take time, and then building enough charges to matter, in this design a haste action boost would be very helpfull in building up charges, so again it would not work perfectly for everyone.

Nightmanis
08-28-2014, 08:15 AM
The problem is the new mechanic not the 30 prr...

Here is the thing: a certain group of players claim that blitz is gamebreaking/unfun/whatever, so they ask for nerf. The response is that devs double every melee's damage output, while taking away a tiny bit from blitzers AND making it available to everyone, EVERY TIME, this time without any skill restriction (if it was so easy to blitz, certain players wouldn't cry for kills in groups). Okay, let less capable players blitz too, fine, I hate it, but I can swallow that, but turning every single raidboss fight into a 2 minutes cakewalk is wrong on way too many levels. What's next? Multiplying raidboss hp by ten just to compensate for blitz? But oh hey, then other destinies are suddenly not competitive again, lets nerf blitz by buffing it again? Imagine a raid like FOT or Fire on Thunder Peak where every melee gets 10 stacks of blitz nonstop.

In case if it's not crystal clear to anyone, I'm not speaking up against a nerf on blitz, but against a major buff. Trust me, we won't notice the difference in melee power or the extra prr, what we will notic is the damage output of 8-12 blitzers melting e/e raidbosses.

This game doesn't have a whole lot of content that the best players can't sleepwalk through, this change would remove the remaining ones, and I don't see how is that beneficial to casuals either.

A logical argument, not going to disagree. I'm happy they got rid of the charging element, and in my opinion if you simply did that, and removed any defensive benefit of blitz while retaining the on kill mechanic.

We could keep the on hit mechanic, but let's reduce it to 1%. I'm not fond of it but it's a small median suggestion.

Qhualor
08-28-2014, 08:41 AM
The problem is the new mechanic not the 30 prr...

Here is the thing: a certain group of players claim that blitz is gamebreaking/unfun/whatever, so they ask for nerf. The response is that devs double every melee's damage output, while taking away a tiny bit from blitzers AND making it available to everyone, EVERY TIME, this time without any skill restriction (if it was so easy to blitz, certain players wouldn't cry for kills in groups). Okay, let less capable players blitz too, fine, I hate it, but I can swallow that, but turning every single raidboss fight into a 2 minutes cakewalk is wrong on way too many levels. What's next? Multiplying raidboss hp by ten just to compensate for blitz? But oh hey, then other destinies are suddenly not competitive again, lets nerf blitz by buffing it again? Imagine a raid like FOT or Fire on Thunder Peak where every melee gets 10 stacks of blitz nonstop.

In case if it's not crystal clear to anyone, I'm not speaking up against a nerf on blitz, but against a major buff. Trust me, we won't notice the difference in melee power or the extra prr, what we will notic is the damage output of 8-12 blitzers melting e/e raidbosses.

This game doesn't have a whole lot of content that the best players can't sleepwalk through, this change would remove the remaining ones, and I don't see how is that beneficial to casuals either.

If you think Blitz is a 2 minute cakewalk on bosses, you should check out a barbarian using UF. Sick DPS.

Zoda
08-28-2014, 09:24 AM
If you think Blitz is a 2 minute cakewalk on bosses, you should check out a barbarian using UF. Sick DPS.

I bet it is with the free 95 melee power everyone just got, it might be stronger for those 30 seconds, but still waaaaay worse in the rest of the 5 minute it has to wait to get it again. (and if you think a barb is sick dps you haven't checked out the pally changes, another topic that may worth some discussion lol)

I wonder if 30 seconds boss fights is what the aim is here though (regardless it might just be the reality). I greatly disagree with the free 95 melee power hand out just because why not as well, but that probably belongs to another thread.

Pescha
08-28-2014, 12:27 PM
Guys just in case you missed it.

Masters blitz is going to build up to 50 melee power/ranged power in the next lammania update,
they are also reducing the amount of
free melee power everyone gets by a half (basically a all out melee nerf, i hope everyone is happy now lol :D)

source : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix-wiWjklms

Zoda
08-28-2014, 01:34 PM
Guys just in case you missed it.

Masters blitz is going to build up to 50 melee power/ranged power in the next lammania update,
they are also reducing the amount of
free melee power everyone gets by a half (basically a all out melee nerf, i hope everyone is happy now lol :D)

source : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix-wiWjklms

You mean a smaller buff? :p

I'm happy now. Now other destinies are finally competitve for real. Looking forward for exalted fury smiting, energy bursting stuff frozen by my spinning ice in crusader and other fun stuff.

Thanks for listening to feedback devs!

Thayion516
08-28-2014, 01:53 PM
Guys just in case you missed it.

Masters blitz is going to build up to 50 melee power/ranged power in the next lammania update,
they are also reducing the amount of
free melee power everyone gets by a half (basically a all out melee nerf, i hope everyone is happy now lol :D)

source : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix-wiWjklms

Its like its either Feast or Famine with turbine.

I think that 100% was the right number. 50 is too small to even worry with. Melee needs a buff to DPS and +50 aint it.

They are putting this MP on too many things IMO. Just Keep it Simple. Adding 85-105 MP to all melee was WAYYYY overkill.

+10 per Melee ED Level. = +60 for any melee in a Melee ED = Perfect Progression.

Leave Blitz at 100MP. That would be worth taking. FOTW, DC, and US are still competitive.

Thayion516
08-28-2014, 02:02 PM
well kinda like parts of this idea, but i would change it a bit:

Master's Blitz: Tier 6 Epic Moment. 3 minute cooldown. ----Ok

5% chance on any melee hit to get 1 stack of Incoming Blitz! ----Ok i think but it may still give charges too often 5% may be needed

When you have 50 Blitz charges you may activate Master's Blitz: You gain Master's Blitz for 30 seconds, in those 30 seconds each hit gives you charge, each charge grants +1 melee and range power, after first 30 second effect ends, you stop gaining charges, and they start decaying one every 4 seconds, caps at 50. ---- the big change i think, it would make it less overpowered and not that powerfull for everyone accross the board.

no defense bonuses. its a dps ability not a survival boost.

in this way effect would not be best for everyone, as building a charge to use it would take time, and then building enough charges to matter, in this design a haste action boost would be very helpfull in building up charges, so again it would not work perfectly for everyone.

It can not build up charges while it is active. It needs to start at the maximum and count down or else you just killed anyone with ranged DPS to use it as an option. Manyshot and Fusilade would be useless with this.

Stoner81
08-28-2014, 02:06 PM
So Blitz has been nerfed and now they nerf the total amount of melee power in ED's... is there any reason at all to be a melee based character now?

Stoner81.

Mryal
08-28-2014, 02:26 PM
You mean a smaller buff? :p

I'm happy now. Now other destinies are finally competitve for real. Looking forward for exalted fury smiting, energy bursting stuff frozen by my spinning ice in crusader and other fun stuff.

Thanks for listening to feedback devs!

I guess we could live with that.Certainly better than the previous versions.Thought its a shame blitz will really remain with no set duration.

maddong
08-28-2014, 02:28 PM
I think these changes are a step in the right direction but we need to nerf the real problem that we can't balance around: fury shot, stacking shuriken expertise/ninja spy, and unlimited mana with shiradi spell power.

jalont
08-28-2014, 02:32 PM
I think these changes are a step in the right direction but we need to nerf the real problem that we can't balance around: fury shot, stacking shuriken expertise/ninja spy, and unlimited mana with shiradi spell power.

Agreed. Nerf what needs to be nerfed and stop buffing already OP classes.

Pescha
08-28-2014, 02:48 PM
Max melee power is now 102, 24 from epic levels + 18 from destiny (cores) + 10 thf (all 3 feats) + 50 blitz.

Melees just got a big slap in the face...

tfc_generalKMK
08-28-2014, 02:55 PM
Max melee power is now 102, 24 from epic levels + 18 from destiny (cores) + 10 thf (all 3 feats) + 50 blitz.

Melees just got a big slap in the face...

i fail to see how doing double or more accurately an extra 102% of current dmg is a slap across the face (other than comparing to blitz on live which is what you shouldn't do )

oh and while i am at with the harper tree you can get more https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447701-Harper-Tree see the first part and ignore the OP who is giving up his sub because of a vip benefit

Pescha
08-28-2014, 03:17 PM
i fail to see how doing double or more accurately an extra 102% of current dmg is a slap across the face (other than comparing to blitz on live which is what you shouldn't do )

oh and while i am at with the harper tree you can get more https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447701-Harper-Tree see the first part and ignore the OP who is giving up his sub because of a vip benefit

How is this not a nerf O.o ?

Chaimberland
08-28-2014, 03:30 PM
I really don't see how this helps melees compared to ranged/casters. Yes melee power is increased a little compared to what we currently have on live but still nothing compared to ranged/casters. This is very disappointing. Master's Blitz didn't need a nerf, just a timer and a cool down. Why we have to go to one extreme to the other I don't know.

Pescha
08-28-2014, 03:35 PM
I really don't see how this helps melees compared to ranged/casters. Yes melee power is increased a little compared to what we currently have on live but still nothing compared to ranged/casters. This is very disappointing. Master's Blitz didn't need a nerf, just a timer and a cool down. Why we have to go to one extreme to the other I don't know.

Everyone wanted a challenge and that's what they get.

Bridge_Dweller
08-28-2014, 03:37 PM
Everyone wanted a challenge and that's what they get.

Pretty much.

I do have to say that I'm pleasantly surprised Turbine nerfed an arguably over-powered ability instead of just giving everything more HP and damage.

Are ranged-builds next?

Chaimberland
08-28-2014, 03:42 PM
Pretty much.

I do have to say that I'm pleasantly surprised Turbine nerfed an arguably over-powered ability instead of just giving everything more HP and damage.

Are ranged-builds next?

Ranged builds should of been first. Now melee have nothing comparable. The entire idea behind this update has just been flushed down the toilet. To put it nicely.

Bridge_Dweller
08-28-2014, 03:45 PM
Ranged builds should of been first. Now melee have nothing comparable. The entire idea behind this update has just been flushed down the toilet. To put it nicely.

I think you may have jumped ship and swam to hyperbole island.

The Defensive changes are still a go.

Non-blitzers got a buff, but people whined too much about it and here we are with it being less of a buff than was originally presented.

Blitz got a huge nerf.

Zoda
08-28-2014, 04:08 PM
Everyone wanted a challenge and that's what they get.

Will see about that part, before my current build I had no problem owning endgame on a crusader melee fvs (and builds like that became significantly better). There are many options, and more of them are viable now than before.

Pescha
08-28-2014, 04:15 PM
Will see about that part, before my current build I had no problem owning endgame on a crusader melee fvs (and builds like that became significantly better). There are many options, and more of them are viable now than before.

Yes but not everyone is playing a melee fvs crusader or anything similar and thats the problem because now they are forced to play something else leaving their previous build behind, of course i wouldn't care about legendary dreadnought if i was build around something else in general those who are unaffected are less interested in others getting nerfed and thats yet again another bad example of what ddo has become.

Grailhawk
08-28-2014, 04:23 PM
Yes but not everyone is playing a melee fvs crusader or anything similar and thats the problem because now they are forced to play something else leaving their previous build behind, of course i wouldn't care about legendary dreadnought if i was build around something else in general those who are unaffected are less interested in others getting nerfed and thats yet again another bad example of what ddo has become.

If your in LD using blitz your still in the best melee dps destiny using the best epic moment you have just gone from being ~140% better then the next best to ~10%.

I know what I think is more balanced.

Qhualor
08-28-2014, 04:25 PM
I would have been fine with a 20-30 second Blitz and a 5 minute cooldown. that's what an epic moment is and that's how long other epic moments are. they could have just kept the same power, just changed it to on hit instead of last hit kill. or they could have made it so you had to physically hit mobs using dc tactics instead of not needing to hit mobs and charge it up first. there wouldnt be any tinkering with power and calling it a nerf when it would be called fixing a mistake instead.

B0ltdrag0n
08-28-2014, 04:26 PM
Max melee power is now 102, 24 from epic levels + 18 from destiny (cores) + 10 thf (all 3 feats) + 50 blitz.

Melees just got a big slap in the face...

This is not correct.
24 from epic levels
The change to cores is 18 AND 30
50 from blitz
10 from weapon style

Epic Destinies

132% Which is still down a significant amount of course.

(LAMANNIA UPDATE): Fury of the Wild and Legendary Dreadnought grants +3 Melee Power per Innate Ability.

Legendary Dreadnaught:
Master's Blitz is now a multi-selector, which allows a character to choose the Dodge version, which caps as it always has, or a new version that adds 30 PRR and MRR when it builds up.
The requirement of using 50 tactical abilities to activate Master's Blitz has been removed.
When activated, the ability builds as enemies are hit.
The destiny's innate abilities each provide a passive and cumulative 5 Melee Power.
(LAMANNIA UPDATE): Master's Blitz now builds up to 50 Melee Power and Ranged Power through charges.

Severlin
08-28-2014, 04:29 PM
We made these changes based on both internal testing and a lot of feedback by players about what they were experiencing in the game on Lamannia.

On live Master's Blitz is fairly useless on long boss fights. It is also fairly useless in larger groups unless people are holding back DPS to let the blitzer kill enemies. The version we are testing works well on boss fights, and works well in teams even with multiple blitzers. Players who tested the ability felt that these advantages went a long way to making Master's Blitz powerful. The changes also remove some of the aspects of the ability that were less fun and discouraged grouping.

We are eager to hear some more feedback as players get to play with the new changes.

Sev~

B0ltdrag0n
08-28-2014, 04:35 PM
For Comparison on Melee Power in each destiny as it is written in the notes. assuming a 10% combat style bonus
82% Non blitzing Legendary (132 blitzing) (or if it was massively nerfed as suggested 52%/102%
44% Divine Crusader.
50% Fury of the Wild
Other Melee Trees 56%

I know that makes only 2 of them useful still. Eyes Divine and Legendary...

Grailhawk
08-28-2014, 04:35 PM
We made these changes based on both internal testing and a lot of feedback by players about what they were experiencing in the game on Lamannia.

On live Master's Blitz is fairly useless on long boss fights. It is also fairly useless in larger groups unless people are holding back DPS to let the blitzer kill enemies. The version we are testing works well on boss fights, and works well in teams even with multiple blitzers. Players who tested the ability felt that these advantages went a long way to making Master's Blitz powerful. The changes also remove some of the aspects of the ability that were less fun and discouraged grouping.

We are eager to hear some more feedback as players get to play with the new changes.

Sev~

You should think of tunning Adrenaline down from a+400% down to +200% to bring it down a bit. But current blitz and MP values look fabulous on paper.

Pescha
08-28-2014, 04:38 PM
This is not correct.
24 from epic levels
The change to cores is 18 AND 30
50 from blitz
10 from weapon style

24(epic levels) + 18(destiny innates) + 50(blitz) + 10(combat style) = 102 isn't it ? where did you get 30 from ?

B0ltdrag0n
08-28-2014, 04:41 PM
24 + 18 + 50 + 10 = 102 isn't it ? where did you get 30 from ?

I quoted it.

Takllin
08-28-2014, 04:42 PM
We made these changes based on both internal testing and a lot of feedback by players about what they were experiencing in the game on Lamannia.

On live Master's Blitz is fairly useless on long boss fights. It is also fairly useless in larger groups unless people are holding back DPS to let the blitzer kill enemies. The version we are testing works well on boss fights, and works well in teams even with multiple blitzers. Players who tested the ability felt that these advantages went a long way to making Master's Blitz powerful. The changes also remove some of the aspects of the ability that were less fun and discouraged grouping.

We are eager to hear some more feedback as players get to play with the new changes.

Sev~

Seriously? I think most can agree that the complaint was not about how much melee power Blitz had, but about the mechanic....

Yet you go and nerf the amount of power and keep the same mechanic...

I also highly disagree that it is fairly useless in larger groups. If you need the party to hold back DPS so that you can keep your 10 stacks of Blitz going...then you should not be Blitzing in the first place.

B0ltdrag0n
08-28-2014, 04:43 PM
You should think of tunning Adrenaline down from a+400% down to +200% to bring it down a bit. But current blitz and MP values look fabulous on paper.

No they shouldn't. I think the fact that ranged builds are being driven to this as their exclusive tree is bad enough without destroying the only thing they have. A short burst dps role.

Pescha
08-28-2014, 04:44 PM
I quoted it.

(LAMANNIA UPDATE): Fury of the Wild and Legendary Dreadnought grants +3 Melee Power per Innate Ability. (New)

the destiny's innate abilities each provide a passive and cumulative 5 Melee Power. (Outdated)

B0ltdrag0n
08-28-2014, 04:46 PM
(LAMANNIA UPDATE): Fury of the Wild and Legendary Dreadnought grants +3 Melee Power per Innate Ability. (New)

the destiny's innate abilities each provide a passive and cumulative 5 Melee Power. (Outdated)

Incorrect On the previous build it was getting 10 per core now its 8 per core.

Pescha
08-28-2014, 04:46 PM
Seriously? I think most can agree that the complaint was not about how much melee power Blitz had, but about the mechanic....

Yet you go and nerf the amount of power and keep the same mechanic...

I also highly disagree that it is fairly useless in larger groups. If you need the party to hold back DPS so that you can keep your 10 stacks of Blitz going...then you should not be Blitzing in the first place.

+1

Pescha
08-28-2014, 04:47 PM
Incorrect On the previous build it was getting 10 per core now its 8 per core.

I am on lammania right now and i am getting 3 per core for a total of 18.

B0ltdrag0n
08-28-2014, 04:52 PM
I am on lammania right now and i am getting 3 per core for a total of 18.

Then they nerfed it by 7 from the last build and did not remove the 2nd note. As it was getting 5 for cores and an additional 5 on the previous build.

Thats very sad.

Still though our choices are still
LD or DC if we are melee. The other trees are still terrible. Fury if ranged.

Qhualor
08-28-2014, 04:56 PM
Seriously? I think most can agree that the complaint was not about how much melee power Blitz had, but about the mechanic....

Yet you go and nerf the amount of power and keep the same mechanic...

I also highly disagree that it is fairly useless in larger groups. If you need the party to hold back DPS so that you can keep your 10 stacks of Blitz going...then you should not be Blitzing in the first place.

I was fine with this until the end. try telling a blitzer they shouldn't be blitzing if the group had to hold back dps. too much unnecessary drama going on in these kinds of groups over a necessary mechanic to keep an ability going. to this day we still have people who compare a players dps to kill count. for me personally, I refused to take Blitz because of all the drama and detesting an ability that relies so much on kills.

Pescha
08-28-2014, 04:57 PM
Then they nerfed it by 7 from the last build and did not remove the 2nd note. As it was getting 5 for cores and an additional 5 on the previous build.

Thats very sad.

Still though our choices are still
LD or DC if we are melee. The other trees are still terrible. Fury if ranged.

Only exception is shadow dancer (4 MP per innate).

B0ltdrag0n
08-28-2014, 04:58 PM
Only exception is shadow dancer (4 MP per innate).

I do not agree. Nothing in that tree is good enough to give up either of the others.

Pescha
08-28-2014, 05:00 PM
I do not agree. Nothing in that tree is good enough to give up either of the others.

Yep, just wanted to point that out hehe.

B0ltdrag0n
08-28-2014, 05:01 PM
How does this change your plans to scale the Light abilities in KoTC and other such effects since that was the main reason we were sold on the melee power changes to begin with along with the phrase that you did not plan on nerfing any builds.

The light damage abilities will not scale as high as previously indicated thus relegating them to 'I probably wont spend points on them again' status.

Drwaz99
08-28-2014, 05:03 PM
Seriously? I think most can agree that the complaint was not about how much melee power Blitz had, but about the mechanic....

Yet you go and nerf the amount of power and keep the same mechanic...

I also highly disagree that it is fairly useless in larger groups. If you need the party to hold back DPS so that you can keep your 10 stacks of Blitz going...then you should not be Blitzing in the first place.

Yes. This.

If a group is holding back DPS so a blitzer can get kills, they already have plenty of DPS without the melee blitzing. It's a non-issue in those groups.

Pescha
08-28-2014, 05:11 PM
How does this change your plans to scale the Light abilities in KoTC and other such effects since that was the main reason we were sold on the melee power changes to begin with along with the phrase that you did plan on nerfing any builds.

The light damage abilities will not scale as high as previously indicated thus relegating them to 'I probably wont spend points on them again' status.

fixed that for ya.

Monkey_Archer
08-28-2014, 05:17 PM
So far, I've been able to test all the melee destinies on kobolds, and ran EE temple of vol with what I believe to be the strongest one (Divine crusader).

Overall I'd say destiny balance is in the best spot yet. Not perfect, but getting closer.

Divine crusader is by far the strongest melee destiny now, but that should be obvious since everything got nerfed except for Zeal of righteousness. This may need attention.

I like the position Legendary Dreadnought is in now. Its still strong, but not the unstoppable killing machine that it is on live. Definitely feels like an actual tactical destiny now. If you have a tactics based build the LD benefits outside of blitz really shine with the new melee power levels, rather then being eclipsed by raw damage.

Fury I'd expect to be underrated for a while. For builds that do not have tactics, this seems to be at least competitive with LD.

Shadowdancer is interesting. My rogue build doesn't really take advantage of everything shadowdancer has to offer, but it does seem like for certain melee builds this might actually be viable.

Grailhawk
08-28-2014, 05:35 PM
Divine crusader is by far the strongest melee destiny now, but that should be obvious since everything got nerfed except for Zeal of righteousness. This may need attention.

I haven't played with blitz yet on Lamannia but math still puts +50% damage a head of Zeal's ~34% damage (+15.7% Damage, +15.7% Doublestrike Average over 4 minutes. 1.157*1.157=1.3386). If you are correct then you are saying its impossible to realistically maintain a 7 stack of blitz?

From what I'm seeing it looks more like they have balanced the two ability around each other a lot better then before.

Monkey_Archer
08-28-2014, 05:48 PM
I haven't played with blitz yet on Lamannia but math still puts +50% damage a head of Zeal's ~34% damage (+15.7% Damage, +15.7% Doublestrike Average over 4 minutes. 1.157*1.157=1.3386). If you are correct then you are saying its impossible to realistically maintain a 7 stack of blitz?

From what I'm seeing it looks more like they have balanced the two ability around each other a lot better then before.

I base that statement on the fact that DC has significant AOE damage and self healing advantages, as well as the fact that zeal multiplies other sources of melee power, while blitz does not.

A THF/SWF/S&B blitzer will be at 52 melee power pre blitz and 102 post blitz, so it technically only provides a ~33% increase. And thats ignoring the time it takes to stack.

TWF will still prefer blitz though.

Thayion516
08-28-2014, 06:08 PM
So Blitz has been nerfed and now they nerf the total amount of melee power in ED's... is there any reason at all to be a melee based character now?

Stoner81.

Blitz was the only thing able to keep up with the caster's endlessly chaining missile for thousands a volley and the monk hers sitting 50 meters away and launching 10,000 point per arrow fury shot vollies. This nerf to Blitz is out of context to the actual place it is in game. What are melee DPS spose to take to come close to light AE FVS dropping 6-8000 point AE nukes at endgame?

Blitz is the only thing keeping melee alive for fun play. What is my role now? Soften them up so the Sorc can frost lances them for 50,000?

I DO agree that melee needed a buff, but giving them a relatively small melee buff in comparison to the other playstyles, THEN removing the only real option to compete is the wrong thing to do.

Blitz should stay at 100MP imo. Such a heavy handed nerf is just further crippling melee.

Guys, don't be rejoicing over +60MP. Make no mistake, melee still will be miles behind Magic and Range. Blitz IS the only thing that comes close to what they can do on live.

And we are loosing it... Good Job.

Pescha
08-28-2014, 06:31 PM
Blitz was the only thing able to keep up with the caster's endlessly chaining missile for thousands a volley and the monk hers sitting 50 meters away and launching 10,000 point per arrow fury shot vollies. This nerf to Blitz is out of context to the actual place it is in game. What are melee DPS spose to take to come close to light AE FVS dropping 6-8000 point AE nukes at endgame?

Blitz is the only thing keeping melee alive for fun play. What is my role now? Soften them up so the Sorc can frost lances them for 50,000?

I DO agree that melee needed a buff, but giving them a relatively small melee buff in comparison to the other playstyles, THEN removing the only real option to compete is the wrong thing to do.

Blitz should stay at 100MP imo. Such a heavy handed nerf is just further crippling melee.

Guys, don't be rejoicing over +60MP. Make no mistake, melee still will be miles behind Magic and Range. Blitz IS the only thing that comes close to what they can do on live.

And we are loosing it... Good Job.

Instead of buffs they ask for nerfs even though they want to keep up with shiradis and monkchers yet still they are asking for nerfs... maybe it is fate who knows at least they get the challenge they deserve.

Cetus
08-28-2014, 06:40 PM
Wow - so melees, especially blitzing melees, just got defecated on.


Now...in LD - thats 6 cores + 8 leves, with 3 melee power per level = 42

Now the fighting style feats give a grand total of 10 = 52

and full blitz = 50

Total of 102 melee power - is that right? versus 250 right now on live.

That's a 60% reduction in maximum damage output.

Sev, you completely ignored the fact that the blitz charging mechanic is absolute rubbish, and instead decided to further cut the damage.

Wizza
08-28-2014, 06:46 PM
Not sure anyone actually complained that the Melee Power was the problem. The mechanic on how to stack it and keep it up was the issue.

Monkey_Archer
08-28-2014, 06:50 PM
Wow - so melees, especially blitzing melees, just got defecated on.


Depends on how you look at the game. My 3rd life paladin is still making a joke out of the new orchard quests. No I still cant compete with the broken builds, but I can effortlessly destroy the new endgame content regardless. No need for past lives, no need for new gear.

If anything, this new round of nerfs gives me hope that next update will follow a similar pattern for ranged/caster builds, and we might actually see some challenge return to this game.

Severlin
08-28-2014, 06:55 PM
Some thoughts:

~ Play with Blitz, give us some feedback. It is easy to tweak the Melee Power.

~ Blitz now works on bosses and in groups so I don't think it's fair to compare the damage directly to the version on live which is only good for trash mobs. Some of our toughest encounters include enemies that last long enough that, on live, cause the blitz stacks to fall off.

~ Blitz with its PRR lines up well with the other EDs. Probably slightly behind Divine Crusader and slightly in front of the others.

~ If melee is truly behind ranged and casting then the good thing about the system as it stands on Lamannia is that the numbers are easy to tweak across the board. We will be looking closely at feedback for just that.

Sev~

Cetus
08-28-2014, 07:04 PM
Some thoughts:

~ Blitz now works on bosses and in groups so I don't think it's fair to compare the damage directly to the version on live which is only good for trash mobs. Some of our toughest encounters include enemies that last long enough that, on live, cause the blitz stacks to fall off.

~ Blitz with its PRR lines up well with the other EDs. Probably slightly behind Divine Crusader and slightly in front of the others.


Sev~

I have a problem with these two justifications, here's why:

1. We never wanted blitz to be more effective against bosses. It was effective against bosses which had adequate trash to feed blitz, the other ones simply made blitz ineffective. This was good - the ability had a niche - trash. I remember being in fury when FOT was around because it was simply better sustanined damage against all the bosses there.

If you wanted better boss damage - then you should improve fury of the wild or something, blitz doesn't need help in being relevant against bosses too.


2. Forget PRR, blitz should be an offensive ability. If you want defense, go to sentinel. I'm not happy with being forced to lose damage in order to get back some sort of defensive perk.

Severlin
08-28-2014, 07:13 PM
I have a problem with these two justifications, here's why:

1. We never wanted blitz to be more effective against bosses. It was effective against bosses which had adequate trash to feed blitz, the other ones simply made blitz ineffective. This was good - the ability had a niche - trash. I remember being in fury when FOT was around because it was simply better sustanined damage against all the bosses there.


We have player feedback that the previous incarnation was problematic and discouraged grouping. That's the top reason for the change in how it builds up.



If you wanted better boss damage - then you should improve fury of the wild or something, blitz doesn't need help in being relevant against bosses too.


We want the Epic Destinies balanced, but we also didn't want so much of melee's damage coming from one source.



2. Forget PRR, blitz should be an offensive ability. If you want defense, go to sentinel. I'm not happy with being forced to lose damage in order to get back some sort of defensive perk.

Blitz has always had a defensive component to it. The defensive component is a perk, just like Divine Crusader has perks. The only reason I bring it up isn't to somehow cheat players out of damage, but because the perks of Divine Crusader were used in the balance discussion.

As I've said, we are watching the test server and the feedback closely to see what is needed for the next round of adjustments.

Sev~

Thayion516
08-28-2014, 07:19 PM
I think the new Charge Mechanic is better then before. It is useful on Trash AND Single target mobs. That is better.

Now we need VIDEOS guys. Screen Shots. Combat Logs. Controlled Damage Outputs and Charge scenarios that both Work and Fail.

If Sev really is watching it. Lets give his something to watch. Give him Feedback.

I will advocate 10 Stacks = +100MP is balanced for the ability.

Thayion516
08-28-2014, 07:24 PM
Instead of buffs they ask for nerfs even though they want to keep up with shiradis and monkchers yet still they are asking for nerfs... maybe it is fate who knows at least they get the challenge they deserve.

Do you think it was us Blitzers who were asking to be nerfed by -50% effectiveness? I sure did not. I was OK with some balance, moderate reduction, and ok with the Charge changes.

But this is too much...

Bridge_Dweller
08-28-2014, 07:26 PM
I will advocate 10 Stacks = +100MP is balanced for the ability.

I'd rather levels//EDs = 75ish MP with Blitz giving another 75. Split the difference.

Cetus
08-28-2014, 07:27 PM
We have player feedback that the previous incarnation was problematic and discouraged grouping. That's the top reason for the change in how it builds up.



We want the Epic Destinies balanced, but we also didn't want so much of melee's damage coming from one source.



Blitz has always had a defensive component to it. The defensive component is a perk, just like Divine Crusader has perks. The only reason I bring it up isn't to somehow cheat players out of damage, but because the perks of Divine Crusader were used in the balance discussion.

As I've said, we are watching the test server and the feedback closely to see what is needed for the next round of adjustments.

Sev~

Well, it sounds like you guys already made up your mind.

Pescha
08-28-2014, 07:35 PM
This is just wrong...

Severlin
08-28-2014, 07:48 PM
Well, it sounds like you guys already made up your mind.

We have already made many adjustments to lots of things based on player feedback. Dialing back the Melee Power is entirely based on player feedback. We are eager to hear about play experiences, see some numbers thrown around, and see if a group with many Blitzers still feels too powerful like it did the last build.

(I am sharing our design thoughts because the feedback from players is they like dev feedback when we can give it.)

Sev~

Pescha
08-28-2014, 08:01 PM
We have already made many adjustments to lots of things based on player feedback. Dialing back the Melee Power is entirely based on player feedback. We are eager to hear about play experiences, see some numbers thrown around, and see if a group with many Blitzers still feels too powerful like it did the last build.

(I am sharing our design thoughts because the feedback from players is they like dev feedback when we can give it.)

Sev~

If you are still Intending to to make adjustments to masters blitz based on player feedback (3-5 people) as you imply can you just get rid of masters blitz instead ? It Would Pain me to Even look at it, that is for sure.

Cetus
08-28-2014, 08:39 PM
We have already made many adjustments to lots of things based on player feedback. Dialing back the Melee Power is entirely based on player feedback. We are eager to hear about play experiences, see some numbers thrown around, and see if a group with many Blitzers still feels too powerful like it did the last build.

(I am sharing our design thoughts because the feedback from players is they like dev feedback when we can give it.)

Sev~

Why would I even bother charging up a moment that gives me 50 melee power now, when it used to give 250 and relied on some kind of skill to keep refreshed?

Now, I can auto attack a statue and go AFK with a fully charged blitz. This is just a further dumbing down of the game.

Personally, I'm disappointed because A) The fighter class now does objectively less damage than paladins. Hell, this harper tree gives everybody access to melee power, while real melee trees LIKE kensei gives a meaningless +1 to damage for 2 AP. This is ridiculously absurd. B) Ranged damage from blitz has also been nerfed to oblivion (for now I guess), and the best archers should have holy sword now C) A tree in the "divine" sphere is doing better damage than a "martial" tree. Why do we have these names again, they don't seem to mean much at all now. Divine crusader is supposed to be a great hybrid tree, not better than a purely melee tree such as LD.

Thayion516
08-28-2014, 08:58 PM
Come on Cetus. The Man is asking you for what your good at. Give him some numbers. Because if you dont, I fear we are all sunk.

Cetus
08-28-2014, 09:02 PM
Come on Cetus. The Man is asking you for what your good at. Give him some numbers. Because if you dont, I fear we are all sunk.

I'm working on it

Cetus
08-28-2014, 09:09 PM
I'm working on it

This would be way faster if we didn't have to re-slot our hotbars every time we decide to try a different build.

Just saying...if you devs are reading

maddong
08-28-2014, 09:54 PM
People will never think the melee power buff is big enough as long as there is furyshot, shuriken expertise ninja spy synergy with IPS, and endless mana chain missiles with spell power shiradi procs with DR 30/60 armor.

Assuming things such as those will eventually be nerfed it is better to do it now so that less melee buff power creep happens trying to satisfy people by balancing around things that can't be balanced around.

Otherwise we have to do a huge melee buff and then when those things are eventually nerfed we have to do a huge ranged and caster buff.

If we could just level the playing field now and give out some +20 hearts we could cut down on some of the power creep that will make epic hard not worth playing.

B0ltdrag0n
08-28-2014, 10:07 PM
The paladin changes are almost good. I really would like you to address the light damage in cores feature which keeps getting less and less useful as you make these changes though. At this point they'd have to scale nearly 200% to be what you were saying they were from before.

As for Cetus' comments on blitz. While I overall like the changes to how it builds up the massive hit it took in overall damage is excessive. The entire destiny tree needs to add additional Melee Power of at least 30 to its current numbers and/or Blitz needs to go back to 10 ranged/melee power per stack again. Either one would be more palatable.

Additionally while I do agree with him as well that Kensai needs work. It is fair to say that it will get its own pass eventually If I may suggest, I would look into giving it a pass when you do barbarians next update. The Cores of Kensai should give at least 3 Melee/ranged power per core and the +dmg line going up should be at least 2% Melee Power/Ranged Power instead of +1(2) damage.

Takllin
08-28-2014, 10:39 PM
We have already made many adjustments to lots of things based on player feedback. Dialing back the Melee Power is entirely based on player feedback. We are eager to hear about play experiences, see some numbers thrown around, and see if a group with many Blitzers still feels too powerful like it did the last build.

(I am sharing our design thoughts because the feedback from players is they like dev feedback when we can give it.)

Sev~

Maybe you are reading different feedback from the rest of us, because most of the feedback has been about how horrible this new mechanic for charging Blitz is, not even close to the same amount of people who are saying that 100 melee power from 10 stacks of Blitz was too much.

I think this is a case of near sightedness. Instead of looking at the actual problem, which is the charging mechanic, you just look at the amount of power...

Which, as Cetus says, means that you clearly have made up your mind that this new mechanic for charging Blitz is what will be making it to live...

Qhualor
08-28-2014, 10:45 PM
Which, as Cetus says, means that you clearly have made up your mind that this new mechanic for charging Blitz is what will be making it to live...

yes, we can expect Blitz will be needing to be charged by having to hit mobs. lots of player feedback for months have stated the current Blitz is not fun relying on last hit kills.

Takllin
08-28-2014, 10:48 PM
yes, we can expect Blitz will be needing to be charged by having to hit mobs. lots of player feedback for months have stated the current Blitz is not fun relying on last hit kills.

Aye, and lots of player feedback also said that it was fun, and something that actually took skill.

This is just another prime example of turbine pandering to the casual player base.

Qhualor
08-28-2014, 10:57 PM
Aye, and lots of player feedback also said that it was fun, and something that actually took skill.

This is just another prime example of turbine pandering to the casual player base.

I wouldn't say lots. more like the same handful of people on the forums.

Blitz needed to be changed and I think the new way is better because Blitz wont be considered the obvious melee epic moment (even though its not a moment long) and it will reduce the unnecessary drama. a mechanic that relies on last hit kills is a poor mechanic.

because I think its better this way doesn't mean I approve of just hitting mobs to build stacks. it doesn't feel thematic in any way doing that. I think there are better ways to do it with successful hit tactics or crits since its that kind of destiny.

B0ltdrag0n
08-28-2014, 10:59 PM
Aye, and lots of player feedback also said that it was fun, and something that actually took skill.

This is just another prime example of turbine pandering to the casual player base.

No not a lot. A few. Often.

Jeremiah179
08-28-2014, 11:20 PM
Aye, and lots of player feedback also said that it was fun, and something that actually took skill.

This is just another prime example of turbine pandering to the casual player base.


These comments are all funny to me -- the melee keeps acting like if you are good enough DPS the other players do not need to hold back...

Apparently they do not play with strong enough other players... in groups I am in, everyone has to hold back until they are stacked almost every time because the casters and insta killers and other melee could destroy all the mobs in a blink if the blitzer just activated. Also, insta killers and strong sorcs etc. Can destroy a whole room of trash mobs before the melee can close.

Melee Blitzing was fun solo. Blitzing was fun in a group feeding the blitzer... Blitzing was miserable the rest of the time due to the mechanic. My melee still has energy burst twisted, so I would use an energy burst to get 3-5 stacks after I activated and did not usually have issues. But we would constantly steal the moment from blitzers that did not warn us over voice they were activating lol...

There are a lot of reasonable solutions available....who knows why they are set on semi extreme... unless they went BIG and got complaints and now they are going SMALL and getting complaints and maybe they secretly were heading towards some middle we don't know about all along...lol

Takllin
08-28-2014, 11:27 PM
These comments are all funny to me -- the melee keeps acting like if you are good enough DPS the other players do not need to hold back...

Apparently they do not play with strong enough other players... in groups I am in, everyone has to hold back until they are stacked almost every time because the casters and insta killers and other melee could destroy all the mobs in a blink if the blitzer just activated. Also, insta killers and strong sorcs etc. Can destroy a whole room of trash mobs before the melee can close.

Melee Blitzing was fun solo. Blitzing was fun in a group feeding the blitzer... Blitzing was miserable the rest of the time due to the mechanic. My melee still has energy burst twisted, so I would use an energy burst to get 3-5 stacks after I activated and did not usually have issues. But we would constantly steal the moment from blitzers that did not warn us over voice they were activating lol...

There are a lot of reasonable solutions available....who knows why they are set on semi extreme... unless they went BIG and got complaints and now they are going SMALL and getting complaints and maybe they secretly were heading towards some middle we don't know about all along...lol

To each his own I suppose. I run with some of the best players on Argo, and we never call out when we start blitzing, we just do it. No one holds back. There are a variety of different builds that are run, DI Sorcs, PMs, Monkchers, Rogues, Bards, FvS, etc.

Also, not all the feedback they get is through the forums...

Stoner81
08-28-2014, 11:35 PM
We want the Epic Destinies balanced, but we also didn't want so much of melee's damage coming from one source.

If by "balance" you actually mean "we nerf the best melee ED to the point of it being pretty much useless so as all others suddenly look good" then congratulations because you have succeeded!

To my knowledge Cetus is the only one who has done a video of the new mechanic (round one) with his character and yes the damage numbers were impressive to say the least however please bear in mind the following:


His character is probably a ultimate completionist with +5/6 tomes on every stat, a lot of power and things come from past lives.
He has an insane amount of good gear and he has a very good understanding of game mechanics.
He DOES NOT represent the vast majority of the player base! He probably represents the 2% or so that are in a similar situation.

ANY character that has that amount of investment be it a Cetus build, Zeus, Pyrene, Shuricannon, Monkcher etc etc it SHOULD BE POWERFUL! We are not talking about something that can't be done in a weekend unless you want to spend thousands of dollars for Otto's Boxes and even then it wouldn't be done in a weekend. Most players can only dream of getting to the point where he is (myself included, I have a TR toon on his 9th heroic life so you can imagine how far I have left to go) and basing anything off of his video alone is beyond dumb. When I had my full on DPS fighter the highest amount of damage I ever did was just over 6,000 in one swing and that was under pretty specific circumstance (helpless, every buff under the sun and sneak attack) as it is now if I had the same toon still I would be able to do what 4,000 ish or so at max damage output? On monsters which have hundreds of thousands of hit points it's a very small drop in a very large ocean!

Yes the Blitz mechanic was a pain especially in groups where it can be very hard to maintain but that was the counter balance to it, when I'm in a group I rarely (if ever) activate Blitz because everything dies so fast that I can't build it up! Now this is could be lack of skill on my part of whatever but so what! I just don't use it or switch ED to Fury depending on the quest. The damage output of melee's is so far behind what casters and ranged can do it is not even remotely funny! Once melee's can do 10,000 points of damage in one strike just like casters and ranged can do then and only then we will have this so called "balance" you are looking for.

On top of all this Blitz only really works in certain quests due to losing all stacks you go through a portal/door which is a lot of quests! Casters and ranged characters don't have the same issue do they? No they don't!

By all means buff the other melee ED's so as to give us options rather than just LD but don't do it by nerfing Blitz to the point where is it borderline useless especially in EE! Yes sure the Armour Up changes should help but us melee's need to be able to dish out DPS to actually kill stuff rather than bore it to death because Blitz doesn't work like it should do and has done SINCE THE DAY YOU RELEASED IT!

Stoner81.

Zoda
08-29-2014, 12:15 AM
On live Master's Blitz is fairly useless on long boss fights. It is also fairly useless in larger groups unless people are holding back DPS to let the blitzer kill enemies. The version we are testing works well on boss fights, and works well in teams even with multiple blitzers. Players who tested the ability felt that these advantages went a long way to making Master's Blitz powerful. The changes also remove some of the aspects of the ability that were less fun and discouraged grouping.

We are eager to hear some more feedback as players get to play with the new changes.

Sev~

So, based on what you say, blitz was usless in boss fights and while running in groups, but somehow it was still overpowered. I like how a fraction of the community decided that the on kill mechanic was not fun, it was the fun part of the ability for me for example. I don't even understand the sentence where you talk about making Master's Blitz powerful, you just reduced it's potential by 80% compared to the live version. Yes it is at least available to everyone now. And their mothers. Every time. I left a toon logged on with autoatack on the training dummy, I think he is having some unquestionably epic moments... Very epic.

With your current "mechanic" (that turns blitz into an overcomplicated passive), 50 melee power is better than 100, that for sure. I thanked you that you listened to our feedback after I initially read the changes, but now I have fairly ambivalent feelings about it after seeing your reasoning. We questioned the so called "mechanic" and you changed the number. It was a solution to prevent the trainwreck the previous version would have brought at least...

I love the Harper Agent tree though... Like a lot. Reminds me of this "racial prestiege class for every race" that we heard rumors about around u13 and never ended up happening. It gives me plenty of builds to brainstorm on now that I'm not tied to Divine Might if I want to maximize my dps, so DDO made it an even for me today.

Now that you brought LD down to the level of other melee destinies, it'd be a good idea to think about the 50k damage fury archers do with a single shot, before the ranged power update.

Legic
08-29-2014, 12:21 AM
Legendary Dreadnaught is the fighter destiny. Fighters do damage. But they also trip things, cleave things, and punch things in the face to momentarily disorient them...


Maybe something like each stack of blitz gives:

5 melee/ranged power

2.5% cooldown reduction to all tactic feats including Stunning fist/Blow, Cleave chain, Manyshot(Maybe?), etc, etc.

+1 unique seeker bonus

+1% bonus to tactic DCs(So this would bring a 70 stunning fist DC to a 77 when fully stacked)

AND

Killing a worthy enemy while blitzing would give +10 melee/ranged power which could be stacked up to 3 times with each stack lasting 15 seconds. This Melee/ranged power would stack with the primary melee/Ranged power from the stacks of blitz accumulated by simply hitting monsters.

AND

While you have 10 stacks of blitz, you have a 1% chance/Hit to regain one action boost.



So while questing/Soloing you would end up with somewhere between 50-80 Melee/Ranged power but during boss fights, it would be very difficult to get more than 50.


Just a thought

Cetus
08-29-2014, 12:49 AM
So, I have a few videos currently uploading. I think I'm kinda getting turned around on this whole blitz melee power thing, you'll see why...

I did it on a pure paladin, equipped with the new shiny gear. And wow, it's a powerful toon. Defenses are amazing, I didn't miss evasion and shadow fade as much as I thought I would.

Pure pally...

Stay tuned for EE Breaking the ranks + EE WGU solo.

Spoiler:

EE WGU: 20 minutes 54 seconds.

yea...I don't know what to say to that, pally changes and glancing blows while twitching are counteracting the blitz nerf quite nicely.

I say keep it the way it is, at this point - I actually enjoyed playing the toon tonight. So, I changed my position on this for now.

J-mann
08-29-2014, 12:58 AM
Some thoughts:

~ Play with Blitz, give us some feedback. It is easy to tweak the Melee Power.

~ Blitz now works on bosses and in groups so I don't think it's fair to compare the damage directly to the version on live which is only good for trash mobs. Some of our toughest encounters include enemies that last long enough that, on live, cause the blitz stacks to fall off.

~ Blitz with its PRR lines up well with the other EDs. Probably slightly behind Divine Crusader and slightly in front of the others.

~ If melee is truly behind ranged and casting then the good thing about the system as it stands on Lamannia is that the numbers are easy to tweak across the board. We will be looking closely at feedback for just that.

Sev~

Sev, I think you kicked melee in the balls a little too hard here. Changes were probably a hair too much last build, but I think most of it came from mrr and prr changes being heavy handed (mob damage being too low, I was afraid of this when mrr was announced). Further, the point of these changes were not only to even out melee destinies (which I agree with) but also to bring melee in line with casters and ranged. I still fail to see how this is the case as most players would agree that only a blitzing melee would keep up with a good di sorc, pm, moncher, or druid (lets not forget them with the best spell in the game imo). Also the mrr/prr changes you will see every caster and their mother in the heaviest armor they can slot and keep their spell failure chance as low as possible, so you might very well have ended up buffing casters and nerfing melee (dps), kinda the opposite goal you were intending.....

Eth
08-29-2014, 12:58 AM
Just try to get the old blitz out of your head ;)

I actually like it so far and the toned down power is reasonable.

Cetus
08-29-2014, 01:01 AM
Just try to get the old blitz out of your head ;)

I actually like it so far and the toned down power is reasonable.

I'm starting to agree

J-mann
08-29-2014, 01:01 AM
So, I have a few videos currently uploading. I think I'm kinda getting turned around on this whole blitz melee power thing, you'll see why...

I did it on a pure paladin, equipped with the new shiny gear. And wow, it's a powerful toon. Defenses are amazing, I didn't miss evasion and shadow fade as much as I thought I would.

Pure pally...

Stay tuned for EE Breaking the ranks + EE WGU solo.

Spoiler:

EE WGU: 20 minutes 54 seconds.

yea...I don't know what to say to that, pally changes and glancing blows while twitching are counteracting the blitz nerf quite nicely.

I say keep it the way it is, at this point - I actually enjoyed playing the toon tonight. So, I changed my position on this for now.

How would you say your damage compares to casters? I can never get lam to work so.... also how much added defence are casters going to get with the changes? Is it possible to get enough asf reduction that they can slot heavy dragonscale? I think most of the problems stem from mrr changes being too much and not that melee were doing way too much damage, but ill happily be wrong.

Zoda
08-29-2014, 01:15 AM
Just try to get the old blitz out of your head ;)

I actually like it so far and the toned down power is reasonable.

Only question remaining if the toned down power is fun enough for non pally-thf builds :D

I'm cool with it because I like to reroll every 2 months, and this gives me way more options.

The reason devs had behind changing blitz still stinks to me though.

Seljuck
08-29-2014, 01:33 AM
These comments are all funny to me -- the melee keeps acting like if you are good enough DPS the other players do not need to hold back...

Apparently they do not play with strong enough other players... in groups I am in, everyone has to hold back until they are stacked almost every time because the casters and insta killers and other melee could destroy all the mobs in a blink if the blitzer just activated. Also, insta killers and strong sorcs etc. Can destroy a whole room of trash mobs before the melee can close.

Melee Blitzing was fun solo. Blitzing was fun in a group feeding the blitzer... Blitzing was miserable the rest of the time due to the mechanic. My melee still has energy burst twisted, so I would use an energy burst to get 3-5 stacks after I activated and did not usually have issues. But we would constantly steal the moment from blitzers that did not warn us over voice they were activating lol...

There are a lot of reasonable solutions available....who knows why they are set on semi extreme... unless they went BIG and got complaints and now they are going SMALL and getting complaints and maybe they secretly were heading towards some middle we don't know about all along...lol


Like 2 days ago I was doing EE Lesson in Deception on my main Blitz build, currently at lv 26. In group we had 2 enchantment sorcerer, 1 shiradi wiz, 1 shuricen thrower, and one more melee dps, some bard hybrid. Everything dies instantly, (mass hold hold and Draconic burst) but I still manage to turn on Blitz and keep it charging through all quest. i was just faster and better then others. If u have issue with charge mechanic, try to learn how to use it first.

EllisDee37
08-29-2014, 01:35 AM
So, I have a few videos currently uploading. I think I'm kinda getting turned around on this whole blitz melee power thing, you'll see why...

I did it on a pure paladin, equipped with the new shiny gear. And wow, it's a powerful toon. Defenses are amazing, I didn't miss evasion and shadow fade as much as I thought I would.

Pure pally...

Stay tuned for EE Breaking the ranks + EE WGU solo.

Spoiler:

EE WGU: 20 minutes 54 seconds.

yea...I don't know what to say to that, pally changes and glancing blows while twitching are counteracting the blitz nerf quite nicely.

I say keep it the way it is, at this point - I actually enjoyed playing the toon tonight. So, I changed my position on this for now.Nice!

Zoda
08-29-2014, 01:39 AM
These comments are all funny to me -- the melee keeps acting like if you are good enough DPS the other players do not need to hold back...

Apparently they do not play with strong enough other players... in groups I am in, everyone has to hold back until they are stacked almost every time because the casters and insta killers and other melee could destroy all the mobs in a blink if the blitzer just activated. Also, insta killers and strong sorcs etc. Can destroy a whole room of trash mobs before the melee can close.

Melee Blitzing was fun solo. Blitzing was fun in a group feeding the blitzer... Blitzing was miserable the rest of the time due to the mechanic.

That used to be true if you gave as much though about starting a blitz as a potato about the dirt surrounding it... If you blitz with a strong group, you zerg ahead invised or not and start when noone can disturb you. If everyone zergs along with you, you'll just end up completing faster or wiping, more fun either way. Alternatively, you can be a **** and whine to your party for kills.

If you are good at it, and still fail your blitz, and your toon is usless without it, it's probably reroll time.

Eth
08-29-2014, 01:50 AM
Only question remaining if the toned down power is fun enough for non pally-thf builds :D

Just made an esos on my ranger last week. I'm prepared, lol.

whereispowderedsilve
08-29-2014, 01:54 AM
Just made an esos on my ranger last week. I'm prepared, lol.

/slightly tongue in cheek:

Oh man/Eth, that sounds just so, SO wrong!(Going THF on a ranger? :P) Haha! Lolz! >><<! Sigh...:(

Eth
08-29-2014, 02:20 AM
/slightly tongue in cheek:

Oh man/Eth, that sounds just so, SO wrong!(Going THF on a ranger? :P) Haha! Lolz! >><<! Sigh...:(

THF on a ranger? No.
On a pally? Hell, yes.

I have only really played pally builds on lamma, actually have to go back to my current live build and see how the changes work for him. The change to Dance of Death looks actually good, but the overall state of TWF looks really lacking.

B0ltdrag0n
08-29-2014, 02:22 AM
THF on a ranger? No.
On a pally? Hell, yes.

I have only really played pally builds on lamma, actually have to go back to my current live build and see how the changes work for him. The change to Dance of Death looks actually good.


]Agreed it really does look good.


Im moderately happy with the changes mostly because
1.) Paladins become playable
2.) If you build was good before and didn't abuse blitz...It got better with the changes, period.

That sounds like good things to me.

Arlathen
08-29-2014, 03:23 AM
You'll find no accurate numbering or Math in my feedback that follows.

At first, I looked at the updated release notes and thought "Wow, Master's Blitz seriously got the Nerf Bat". And smiled in that evil little way I do sometimes.

So, I rolled up a potential Half-Elf 15 Paladin/3 Ranger/2 Monk centered with Longswords build, using Legendary Dreadnought.

With test gear from the dojo (including TF Tier 3/Mortal Fear weapons and the new U23 Raid Loot), I was able to utterly destroy the Kobolds in bare seconds. In one particularly scenario, with activated Master's Blitz, Haste & Damage boost and full on GM Wind Stance/Zeal I literally tore up 8 test Kobolds in around 15 seconds.

I finished with just 7 stacks of Master Blitz, not even a full 'stack'.

So, off I went with a fellow colleague - Pal 15/Ranger 3/Fighter TWF Khopesh & Heavy Armour, Divine Crusader - into EE Lords of Dust.

Our DPS was simply phenemonal - for the first time in a very, very long time I felt the raw DPS on my Melee toon was enough to solo-smash through some EE mobs.

However, the fight with the Rhakshasa, 2 Deathguard and some cultists at the last altar proved an interesting encounter, and required a bit of kiting / pot chugging before carefully retraining to fray.

The Karas fight again also proved highly entertaining. The number of Skellies also meant again I had to be careful with positioning and aggro management, otherwise a series of 200pt damage hits would quickly slow down my 'awesome' DPS. Gnomon was a ***** cat, but Karas also difficult to fight due to the outstanding amount of damage he did per swing. At that point, I let my 120 PRR Heavy armoured companion draw aggro for 5 or seconds through Raw DPS and then I returned to the fight.

Net result for me?

Melee is back to being highly competitive DPS
Heavy Armour has a place in this game once again
Master's Blitz is still a fun ability to use.





http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/540/eXJGwl.jpg

Monkey_Archer
08-29-2014, 03:40 AM
Legendary Dreadnaught is the fighter destiny. Fighters do damage. But they also trip things, cleave things, and punch things in the face to momentarily disorient them...


Maybe something like each stack of blitz gives:

5 melee/ranged power

2.5% cooldown reduction to all tactic feats including Stunning fist/Blow, Cleave chain, Manyshot(Maybe?), etc, etc.

+1 unique seeker bonus

+1% bonus to tactic DCs(So this would bring a 70 stunning fist DC to a 77 when fully stacked)

AND

Killing a worthy enemy while blitzing would give +10 melee/ranged power which could be stacked up to 3 times with each stack lasting 15 seconds. This Melee/ranged power would stack with the primary melee/Ranged power from the stacks of blitz accumulated by simply hitting monsters.

AND

While you have 10 stacks of blitz, you have a 1% chance/Hit to regain one action boost.



So while questing/Soloing you would end up with somewhere between 50-80 Melee/Ranged power but during boss fights, it would be very difficult to get more than 50.


Just a thought

Interesting ideas. I think you're trying to add too much, but I like the idea of each blitz stack adding to tactical feat bonuses. That alone without all the other suggestions would be a really strong and fun addition to blitz.

Keeping the on-kill mechanic in addition to the 10% on hit, as a means of stacking blitz faster, is also a very interesting compromise.

BDog77
08-29-2014, 04:26 AM
Blitz needed to be changed and I think the new way is better because Blitz wont be considered the obvious melee epic moment (even though its not a moment long) and it will reduce the unnecessary drama. a mechanic that relies on last hit kills is a poor mechanic.

When Lamm was up last time, I really enjoyed playing several different melee EDs (Fotw, DC, LD). This time, absolutely no contest, if I'm not Blitzing, I am not having ANY fun. I hated being in any destiny but LD, and I hated LD until Blitz was fully charged, then it became fun to play. The damage I was doing in any other ED was actually (somehow, although I have all my equipment on Live but not on Lamm, so maybe that was it) LESS than I am doing on Live right now (could that even be possible? I dunno, it certainly was not noticeably better). Absolutely anemic damage. Then that rush of Blitz hit my veins. Ahhhhh, all better now.

The idea was to make Blitz the only useful melee damage boost at cap, right? Well done, promotions all around!!

wiliamsane
08-29-2014, 07:40 AM
On live Master's Blitz is fairly useless on long boss fights.
If you have it charged before boss fight you can start with few stacks which goes away (if you dont need to zone somewhere :D ).. this is ok and i have never really have problem with this , or you can even swap destiny if you want to do your best - i used to swap to fury for raid like fot and i was still able to do good job even with LD



It is also fairly useless in larger groups unless people are holding back DPS to let the blitzer kill enemies
This is not so true .. I did have great group full of instakill casters , hold and burst casters , shiradis , monkchers etc and did not have much problems to charge it up . It needs a little timing and maybe taking a little risk too - like i need to throw myself into group of mobs ahead of others .. i might die like a fool but reward is totally worth it ! I loved this and i have newer whined if i did not get my charges up or expired blitz ... so what .. it is my fault and i keep roling without it and WITH MY MOUTH SHUT UP ! I would be ashamed if i shout at anyone about my blitz .


The version we are testing works well on boss fights, and works well in teams even with multiple blitzers.
Bosses ... ok , i agree . Multiple blitzers ... well , dont be greedy you can make quest much faster with rather two than one .. it have few IF .. if quest is ok for it , if other blitzer is not tragic etc etc you know you can even prepare few mobs for other blitzer with your going on ... it is called teamwork !


We are eager to hear some more feedback as players get to play with the new changes. I did tryed previous 100MP version ant it was not my tea . And this ... 50MP .. really ?! this is garbage imho . And since you are leaving TWF behind i think it will be better to just switch to furry or divine crusader ... heck even now on live i am happy with them and with boost to them it will be even better and LD will be weaker and not so funny option .
You are boosting melee destinies .. good good , but in my opinion LD with blitz should be in range as it is on live - LD + epic levels + blitz = 250 melee and ranged power .. heck even 200 would be ok . This 120 or so is totaly "no, thank you"


We have player feedback that the previous incarnation was problematic and discouraged grouping. That's the top reason for the change in how it builds up. Discouraged grouping? .. how ? Some whiner met a rude blitzer and here it goes ... people who are happy or ok with it keep their mouth shut and the rest cry loudly.

Last words : Yes i did played all destinies on live (epic completionist , no boxes) and Furry and Crusader were .. are great and fun to play ... also boosting weaker ones is great thing but on the other hand nerfing or drasticaly changing other one is bad step , also leaving ranged power for "later" is bad too

Pescha
08-29-2014, 07:58 AM
So, I have a few videos currently uploading. I think I'm kinda getting turned around on this whole blitz melee power thing, you'll see why...

I did it on a pure paladin, equipped with the new shiny gear. And wow, it's a powerful toon. Defenses are amazing, I didn't miss evasion and shadow fade as much as I thought I would.

Pure pally...

Stay tuned for EE Breaking the ranks + EE WGU solo.

Spoiler:

EE WGU: 20 minutes 54 seconds.

yea...I don't know what to say to that, pally changes and glancing blows while twitching are counteracting the blitz nerf quite nicely.

I say keep it the way it is, at this point - I actually enjoyed playing the toon tonight. So, I changed my position on this for now.

I do not see any videos of you blitzing with 102 MP.

Pescha
08-29-2014, 08:04 AM
If you have it charged before boss fight you can start with few stacks which goes away (if you dont need to zone somewhere :D ).. this is ok and i have never really have problem with this , or you can even swap destiny if you want to do your best - i used to swap to fury for raid like fot and i was still able to do good job even with LD


This is not so true .. I did have great group full of instakill casters , hold and burst casters , shiradis , monkchers etc and did not have much problems to charge it up . It needs a little timing and maybe taking a little risk too - like i need to throw myself into group of mobs ahead of others .. i might die like a fool but reward is totally worth it ! I loved this and i have newer whined if i did not get my charges up or expired blitz ... so what .. it is my fault and i keep roling without it and WITH MY MOUTH SHUT UP ! I would be ashamed if i shout at anyone about my blitz .

Bosses ... ok , i agree . Multiple blitzers ... well , dont be greedy you can make quest much faster with rather two than one .. it have few IF .. if quest is ok for it , if other blitzer is not tragic etc etc you know you can even prepare few mobs for other blitzer with your going on ... it is called teamwork !

I did tryed previous 100MP version ant it was not my tea . And this ... 50MP .. really ?! this is garbage imho . And since you are leaving TWF behind i think it will be better to just switch to furry or divine crusader ... heck even now on live i am happy with them and with boost to them it will be even better and LD will be weaker and not so funny option .
You are boosting melee destinies .. good good , but in my opinion LD with blitz should be in range as it is on live - LD + epic levels + blitz = 250 melee and ranged power .. heck even 200 would be ok . This 120 or so is totaly "no, thank you"

Discouraged grouping? .. how ? Some whiner met a rude blitzer and here it goes ... people who are happy or ok with it keep their mouth shut and the rest cry loudly.

Last words : Yes i did played all destinies on live (epic completionist , no boxes) and Furry and Crusader were .. are great and fun to play ... also boosting weaker ones is great thing but on the other hand nerfing or drasticaly changing other one is bad step , also leaving ranged power for "later" is bad too

They are actually discouraging grouping for nerfing blitz into oblivion giving newbies a hard time to keep up with Elitists.

Standal
08-29-2014, 08:05 AM
We made these changes based on both internal testing and a lot of feedback by players about what they were experiencing in the game on Lamannia.

On live Master's Blitz is fairly useless on long boss fights. It is also fairly useless in larger groups unless people are holding back DPS to let the blitzer kill enemies. The version we are testing works well on boss fights, and works well in teams even with multiple blitzers. Players who tested the ability felt that these advantages went a long way to making Master's Blitz powerful. The changes also remove some of the aspects of the ability that were less fun and discouraged grouping.

We are eager to hear some more feedback as players get to play with the new changes.

Sev~

I like the reduction on MP you've made with this Lama release. It's still a clear buff, but the game doesn't feel totally different from live today.

The proc rate for Master's Blitz is much too low for any difficulty besides EE. On live, you can't get a charge unless the party funnels kills to you. If you want Master's Blitz to be group friendly you need to upgrade the proc rate by at least another 10%, probably more if you want it to work in EN groups.

Zoda
08-29-2014, 08:43 AM
THF on a ranger? No.
On a pally? Hell, yes.

I have only really played pally builds on lamma, actually have to go back to my current live build and see how the changes work for him. The change to Dance of Death looks actually good, but the overall state of TWF looks really lacking.

I think full INT based pure ranger with insightful reflex and the new Harper Agent tree is stronger than your live build now for a ranger, I'd try that if I wanted to test the power of a ranger. That capstone keeps tempting me to use it...

Grailhawk
08-29-2014, 09:11 AM
THF on a ranger? No.
On a pally? Hell, yes.

I have only really played pally builds on lamma, actually have to go back to my current live build and see how the changes work for him. The change to Dance of Death looks actually good, but the overall state of TWF looks really lacking.

They need more things like Dance of Death (AoE attacks that work well TWF), and to tweak the range of one handed weapons while TWF its too small to be effective in the current more dynamic game (aka far less stand and hit a boss till it dies).

Takllin
08-29-2014, 09:25 AM
I do not see any videos of you blitzing with 102 MP.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447740-Videos-of-Mater-s-Blitz-Round-Two-Pure-Paladin

When he fixes the videos to be public, they are in that thread.

Eth
08-29-2014, 09:29 AM
I think full INT based pure ranger with insightful reflex and the new Harper Agent tree is stronger than your live build now for a ranger, I'd try that if I wanted to test the power of a ranger. That capstone keeps tempting me to use it...

I fail to see how Int-based should be any better than Dex-based (other than you have to waste a feat and AP going Int-based that you really don't have) and Dex-Based vs. Str-Based Ranger debate is old.

Edit: Oh, guess due to that insight bonus to attack/damage from half your int-mod on top? Yea, might be worth a look.

Pescha
08-29-2014, 09:36 AM
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447740-Videos-of-Mater-s-Blitz-Round-Two-Pure-Paladin

When he fixes the videos to be public, they are in that thread.

ok

Zoda
08-29-2014, 09:44 AM
I fail to see how Int-based should be any better than Dex-based (other than you have to waste a feat and AP going Int-based that you really don't have) and Dex-Based vs. Str-Based Ranger debate is old.

You get your "divine might" (know the angels) based on your main stat instead of your secondary, and you get INT to damage on your bow (you only get dex to damage on bow as elf otherwise). DEX based with INT secondary might actually be better, I'm not sure, but I don't see how STR based is better than either on a pure ranger.

Nightmanis
08-29-2014, 09:47 AM
I fail to see how Int-based should be any better than Dex-based (other than you have to waste a feat and AP going Int-based that you really don't have) and Dex-Based vs. Str-Based Ranger debate is old.

Edit: Oh, guess due to that insight bonus to attack/damage from half your int-mod on top? Yea, might be worth a look.

It might not be, but going for max dex and improving int like you would charisma would be a very lovely build.

Also take rogue for traps. Because it just seems like a waste of intelligence to not do so.

Eth
08-29-2014, 09:57 AM
It might not be, but going for max dex and improving int like you would charisma would be a very lovely build.

Also take rogue for traps. Because it just seems like a waste of intelligence to not do so.

I think zodas point was to make a build that can pick up the tempest capstone ;)
So no rogue splash.

Dex only works with elf really, otherwise you bow damage will be lacking.

I actually will try this build on lamma (fully Int based).

Zoda
08-29-2014, 10:00 AM
I think zodas point was to make a build that can pick up the tempest capstone ;)
So no rogue splash.

Dex only works with elf really, otherwise you bow damage will be lacking.

I actually will try this build on lamma (fully Int based).

:)

Loromir
08-29-2014, 10:09 AM
Personally, I think they should keep it basically as is on live, but change the charging mechanic to 50 successful tactical attacks (Meaning, you have to actually hit something).

Eth
08-29-2014, 10:10 AM
:)

What really tempts me with an Int-based build is the ability to slap some spellpower on your weapon and twist in Energy Burst and maybe even take Hellball (would need maximise then though), which would somewhat make up for the AoE damage that TWF lack.

Nightmanis
08-29-2014, 10:11 AM
I think zodas point was to make a build that can pick up the tempest capstone ;)
So no rogue splash.

Dex only works with elf really, otherwise you bow damage will be lacking.

I actually will try this build on lamma (fully Int based).

Always seem to forget about the ├╝ber cap stone.

I really wonder how much intelligence you can crank on a pure ranger

Zoda
08-29-2014, 10:14 AM
What really tempts me with an Int-based build is the ability to slap some spellpower on your weapon and twist in Energy Burst and maybe even take Hellball (would need maximise then though), which would somewhat make up for the AoE damage that TWF lack.

Yep, last night we went through like a dozen builds with Cetus, Int based human pally with pew pew and energy burst was one of them. Then he picked bladeforged to kill the fun.

Pescha
08-29-2014, 10:47 AM
Anyone got a idea for what to pick for the last 3 levels ? (i know its off topic).

One possiblity is 14 paladin 6 monk but i would loose zeal and instead get shadow veil.

Takllin
08-29-2014, 10:52 AM
Anyone got a idea for what to pick for the last 3 levels ? (i know its off topic).

One possiblity is 14 paladin 6 monk but i would loose zeal and instead get shadow veil.

3 Monk 2 Fighter.

5% movement speed, 2 extra feats, tactics, haste boost, extra boosts.

Pescha
08-29-2014, 10:54 AM
3 Monk 2 Fighter.

5% movement speed, 2 extra feats, tactics, haste boost, extra boosts.

gonna play around a bit on lammania.

And i guess TF falchion (first degree,dragons edge, crippling flames) for a good setup.

Seikojin
08-29-2014, 10:56 AM
We have already made many adjustments to lots of things based on player feedback. Dialing back the Melee Power is entirely based on player feedback. We are eager to hear about play experiences, see some numbers thrown around, and see if a group with many Blitzers still feels too powerful like it did the last build.

(I am sharing our design thoughts because the feedback from players is they like dev feedback when we can give it.)

Sev~

Even if the change as it is now is good, I still don't see why LD has to have the epic moment on all the time. However, toning its melee power down so it doesn't eclipse the quests is a decent workaround.

I still think it should be strong, but an actual moment. Build charges via hits (10%), deaths, and tacticals, activate to start charging and get the defensive perk, build stacks with hits (10%), deaths, tactical uses, no depreciation timer on them, total timer of 2 minutes and a 5 minute cooldown on the ability. Let the stacks go higher so it has the power feel to it, and still works as a moment.

However, this would lead people to build up blitz, rage for 2 minutes, pause, build up blitz, rage, etc. So maybe a toned down on all the time ability is best?

Zoda
08-29-2014, 11:09 AM
Anyone got a idea for what to pick for the last 3 levels ? (i know its off topic).

One possiblity is 14 paladin 6 monk but i would loose zeal and instead get shadow veil.

Stay pure, feats are not required and pally capstone is strong.

Thrudh
08-29-2014, 04:16 PM
Max melee power is now 102, 24 from epic levels + 18 from destiny (cores) + 10 thf (all 3 feats) + 50 blitz.

Melees just got a big slap in the face...

LOL... They doubled the damage of every melee not using blitz (which is a LOT of us)...

Makes many melee stronger without making melee TOO strong...

And melee with Blitz in live are TOO strong... Glad they are nerfing that... while bringing up all the other EDs...

Excellent work devs.

BDog77
08-29-2014, 04:34 PM
LOL... They doubled the damage of every melee not using blitz (which is a LOT of us)...

Makes many melee stronger without making melee TOO strong...

And melee with Blitz in live are TOO strong... Glad they are nerfing that... while bringing up all the other EDs...

Excellent work devs.

Ummm, no, not on the current version of Lamm they didn't. Not using Blitz will add 44%-56% damage to other melees, as I said above, I could barely notice the increase from Live. Blitz, on the other hand, DOES double your damage output from Live (although it is not as good as it is on Live right now).

When U23 goes Live, I will simply never use any other ED than LD for EE, ofc, I might run in other EDs for EH. I think they dialed back MP way too far.

Pescha
08-29-2014, 04:43 PM
Ummm, no, not on the current version of Lamm they didn't. Not using Blitz will add 44%-56% damage to other melees, as I said above, I could barely notice the increase from Live. Blitz, on the other hand, DOES double your damage output from Live (although it is not as good as it is on Live right now).

When U23 goes Live, I will simply never use any other ED than LD for EE, ofc, I might run in other EDs for EH. I think they dialed back MP way too far.

nvm

Thrudh
08-29-2014, 08:13 PM
Ummm, no, not on the current version of Lamm they didn't. Not using Blitz will add 44%-56% damage to other melees, as I said above, I could barely notice the increase from Live.

Okay, I was wrong... Thank you for correcting me...

Now tell me again that you DON'T NOTICE 50% more damage? Say that again... I want to hear you say it that 50% more damage isn't much at all... not even noticeable.

In fact Pescha thinks it's a "slap in the face".... 50% more damage, a slap in the face...

BDog77
08-29-2014, 08:35 PM
Now tell me again that you DON'T NOTICE 50% more damage? Say that again... I want to hear you say it that 50% more damage isn't much at all... not even noticeable

I'm sorry, I didn't notice it. I realize my builds suck. On Live my damage numbers tend to run from 80-100 (main number only), on Lamm, they seemed to run from 80-100 in any ED but LD when Blitzing. Now possibly on Live I am actually running 75-high 90s and on Lamm, maybe I'm running low 80s to slightly over 100, but if I am getting 50% more damage, shouldn't I see my lowest numbers being closer to 100? I am NOT seeing that.

Now, full out in Blitz I am seeing numbers in the high 180s to low 200s (I had 122 MP with full Blitz, there does seem to be a bug with THF where at least the number shown on the character sheet is still 20, though it was supposed to be lowered to 10). Those numbers are about what i expected to see, being slightly over double what I have on Live right now.

But yeah, in the other EDs, the 40-50% seems hardly noticeable to me.

There ya go, I said it again, just for you.

B0ltdrag0n
08-29-2014, 08:59 PM
LOL... They doubled the damage of every melee not using blitz (which is a LOT of us)...
The did not double anything.



Makes many melee stronger without making melee TOO strong... Yes.

Thayion516
08-29-2014, 09:51 PM
LOL... They doubled the damage of every melee not using blitz (which is a LOT of us)...

X + X(1.00) is double damage. That did not happen to any melee class in game with base MR.

X + X(.65) is what is currently happening for all melee without abilities.

Blitz grants +(.50) with 10 counters.

Just for referance. Unbridled Fury gives +(4.00) with a garuanteed crit.

BDog77
08-30-2014, 03:22 AM
Now tell me again that you DON'T NOTICE 50% more damage? Say that again... I want to hear you say it that 50% more damage isn't much at all... not even noticeable

Okay, I'm also back here to eat my words tonight. Honestly, I must have had a weird bug last night on Lamm. I logged in today and BOOM, all of my damage numbers were right where I thought they should be, in any destiny (of course LD was working for me last night, but was the only one). So, yeah, my damage increase was VERY noticeable, even in US (wow, who woudda thunk it, US).

Sorry I was posting incorrect information in these threads, but I gotta say, I really was seeing NO damage increase from Live at all last night, and I was VERY unhappy. I'm glad whatever it was stopped happening to me, and I was able to actually test the new numbers. They look pretty spiffy to me.

Thumbs up!

Rull
08-30-2014, 04:49 AM
The Lammania form is an improvement over the live form of Blitz. Hopefully they tweak it some more, but really I just want the devs to remove it from the game and make the LD epic moment on par with Fury of the Wild and Grandmaster of Flowers which are what epic moments should be.

For the next 40 seconds, your basic attacks hit any enemy in range.

or

For the next 40 seconds, you get +10 to your tactical DCs, +10% to dodge and dodgecap, +10% to damage, immunity to stun/paralyze/hold/etc.

or

For the next 60 seconds, your tactical abilities get +100 MP

or

The next 100 attacks you make get +100 MP


Personally I think any of them are more interesting than just +damage. If you keep it at stacks, work in +tactical DC in the stacks.

Pescha
08-30-2014, 08:36 AM
Okay, I was wrong... Thank you for correcting me...

Now tell me again that you DON'T NOTICE 50% more damage? Say that again... I want to hear you say it that 50% more damage isn't much at all... not even noticeable.

In fact Pescha thinks it's a "slap in the face".... 50% more damage, a slap in the face...

Yes i do still consider it a slap in the face if you are blitzing. Maxiumum achievable melee power on lammania is
102 (including blitz, i don't care about harper) and 52 (without blitz, i don't care about harper),
blitz on live provides 250 (3.5 multiplier) melee power and 0 (1.0 multiplier) melee power outside of blitz,
that means if you are not blitzing you will feel your dps increase by x1.52 or (52 %)
if you are blitzing you will feel your dps decrease by 41% and thats still a big slap in the face.

vryxnr
08-30-2014, 07:20 PM
Just going to give my personal experience on using Blitz on live vs on Lam, based on the last hour of me running around in both.

On live I am level 24 pure fighter, 2hander falchion user. Sometimes I will use Xuum. Not the epic version, but the simple, ML10 base item Xuum. With that equipped and blitz at 10 stacks, I was actually able to crit for just over 3000 damage from time to time, with my average non-crit damage being around 750 or so.

On Lam I leveled up to 28, equipped a Tier 2 Thunder-Forged Falchion (ML26), and ran through a few places with blitz on. Even when I got up to 10 stacks, my high end crits were topping off at about 1300, and my average non-crit damage was around 325.

Damage numbers from my own personal experience from only about 1 hour of playtime aside, I did like that the blitz on Lam could be build/maintained on a boss instead of vanishing on one. I also like that I no longer felt the urge to stand at the entrance of a quest cleaving and tripping nothing to build it. Thirdly, I also liked that I didn't need to strike the killing blow to maintain it either (that has always bothered me on live. It really is (in my experience and personal opinion) potentially damaging to the group/party mentality/playstyle).

The general damage increase to non-LD melee's was nice (though not as much as I thought it would be, to be honest)... but as for the Blitz itself - while I do enjoy some of the changes to how it works - the effect on DPS does seem (to me) to be a massive nerf.

Pescha
08-30-2014, 08:07 PM
Just going to give my personal experience on using Blitz on live vs on Lam, based on the last hour of me running around in both.

On live I am level 24 pure fighter, 2hander falchion user. Sometimes I will use Xuum. Not the epic version, but the simple, ML10 base item Xuum. With that equipped and blitz at 10 stacks, I was actually able to crit for just over 3000 damage from time to time, with my average non-crit damage being around 750 or so.

On Lam I leveled up to 28, equipped a Tier 2 Thunder-Forged Falchion (ML26), and ran through a few places with blitz on. Even when I got up to 10 stacks, my high end crits were topping off at about 1300, and my average non-crit damage was around 325.

Damage numbers from my own personal experience from only about 1 hour of playtime aside, I did like that the blitz on Lam could be build/maintained on a boss instead of vanishing on one. I also like that I no longer felt the urge to stand at the entrance of a quest cleaving and tripping nothing to build it. Thirdly, I also liked that I didn't need to strike the killing blow to maintain it either (that has always bothered me on live. It really is (in my experience and personal opinion) potentially damaging to the group/party mentality/playstyle).

The general damage increase to non-LD melee's was nice (though not as much as I thought it would be, to be honest)... but as for the Blitz itself - while I do enjoy some of the changes to how it works - the effect on DPS does seem (to me) to be a massive nerf.

Yep those numbers indicate a massive nerf.

Thayion516
08-31-2014, 12:20 AM
Yes I also agree. Blitz is hum drum at best now at +50MR. I thought the whole point of blitz was to umm.. Blitz? Feel powerful as you advance rapidly on your opponent? Currently I'm rather disappointed with the 150% nerf to it. It does not feel fun or exciting any more. The damage output is now relatively average and no real survivability options in the tree is also a disappointment.

The Blitz counters need to be increased to 10 counters = 100 MR. Legendary Dreadnought should have a marginal damage increase over the Divine trees given their healing and defensive capacities.

Pescha
08-31-2014, 03:49 AM
Yes I also agree. Blitz is hum drum at best now at +50MR. I thought the whole point of blitz was to umm.. Blitz? Feel powerful as you advance rapidly on your opponent? Currently I'm rather disappointed with the 150% nerf to it. It does not feel fun or exciting any more. The damage output is now relatively average and no real survivability options in the tree is also a disappointment.

The Blitz counters need to be increased to 10 counters = 100 MR. Legendary Dreadnought should have a marginal damage increase over the Divine trees given their healing and defensive capacities.

Agreed, devs please change it back to 100 melee power.

Forzah
08-31-2014, 06:04 AM
Agreed, devs please change it back to 100 melee power.

You have repeated this many times. Anything you say further will only decrease your chances of getting what you want.

Pescha
08-31-2014, 06:36 AM
You have repeated this many times. Anything you say further will only decrease your chances of getting what you want.

Who knows i wouldn't be surprised if they suddenly removed blitz because of *sniff* *sniff* it is so overpowered drama.

Nascoe
08-31-2014, 09:42 AM
Agreed, devs please change it back to 100 melee power.

Hm, well, I think it should either be like it is on Lamannia now (i.e. a longer term sustainable boost to damage and some defence - even Cetus mentioned he found it fun to play with all the changes) or make it something that is harder to obtain (but not kill as it was - it really did hurt socials/grouping) and especially hard to maintain for a longer time and make it superb damage (for example giving 100 MP).

B0ltdrag0n
08-31-2014, 06:43 PM
Im curious with how it is now on live 52% base would it be someting to consider to make it trickle down similar to Zeal of the Righteous.

Let it stack to 20 Stacks of 5 Melee Power that tick down 1 stack every 15 seconds.

I would even keep the on hit This would give on button press 152% Melee power which decays as follows
152 15 sec 15 sec total
147 15 sec 30 sec total
142 15 sec 45 sec total
... ... .....
57 15 sec 300 sec total

I would then set the cooldown to remain at 300 seconds. This gives us the following damage curve.

Total percentage damage in normalized over the 300 seconds +94% or 194% base damage.

The current version gives us perhaps a higher output though it can take longer to charge. I do not have a length to the graphs made before however but this version sees a constant damage increase. It adds a bit of skill and tactics back for those that want to see it in place (i.e. when to just gain =52% and save the higher portions of damage for when it is needed) or can just be putton pressed every five minutes to keep a constant stream of damage as you chug through the quest.

This has the upside of returning the 100 melee power for some period of time to the destiny.

It is only a thought.

Qhualor
08-31-2014, 07:09 PM
Who knows i wouldn't be surprised if they suddenly removed blitz because of *sniff* *sniff* it is so overpowered drama.

no. Sev even said they are trying to make it in line with other epic moments and not the clear obvious choice for most melees as it is right now.

Pescha
09-01-2014, 04:41 PM
no. Sev even said they are trying to make it in line with other epic moments and not the clear obvious choice for most melees as it is right now.

Haha nice one, by in line you mean brutally stomp it into the ground and name it weaksaucenought.