PDA

View Full Version : We need a tiered loot system



Pages : [1] 2

Cetus
08-25-2014, 08:38 PM
Throughout the days of gianthold, high road, and the more recent stormhorns and wheloon adventure packs, the developers introduced a tiered loot system where the loot would gradually improve with the difficulty of the quest.

With this system, more casual easy going players were capable of tackling end-game content at a more comfortable level, while extracting the respective level of endgame loot.

At the same time, high-caliber players mostly avoided the lower difficulty options because there existed a carrot, an incentive, an impetus to consistently tackle endgame content at its most challenging level.

Additionally, the more casual easy going folk had complete opportunity to team up with their higher caliber friends in order to equip themselves with some of the higher level versions of endgame loot.

This system maintained the longevity of content throughout the entire endgame population. The likes of gianthold and high road were visited ad nauseum in order to acquire the different levels of treasure. Today, the epic elite versions of gianthold items are still relevant albeit the newer content that has been released since.

Today, the developers neglect to recognize the importance of such a system in maintaining the longevity of endgame content. Abandoning the tiered loot system left the most recent content barely lucrative. All of the loot has been extracted through repeated normal zerg runs. The haunted halls, temple of deathwyrm, and fire on thunder peak would have kept high calibre players busy for months trying to tackle these challenges in order to acquire the treasures.

Now, the developers are yet again making the same mistake. Epic orchard does not have a tiered loot system. All of the highest level loot is up for grabs the moment we decide to steam roll the content. Longevity is a fantasy, and I bet this is the reason why we perceive the game as "too easy" - the developers stopped manufacturing any impetus to do anything above normal.

Return the tiered loot system, please. Everybody wins.

Mryal
08-25-2014, 09:01 PM
This wont work with the easy button changes in lamania.Easy enough to solo EE as first lifer:(
But i agree,tiered is better for sure.Gives a reason to run harder content. And better economy,assuming unbound loot

Braegan
08-25-2014, 09:21 PM
Honestly, imo the best was how FoT was handled. You could run EE for chance at special named augment, get loot fully upgraded or you could run it at a lower difficulty and spend coms to upgrade your loot. Really gave everyone something to strive for.

apep1412
08-25-2014, 09:22 PM
I don't expect them to go back to the tiered loot system as it was for those packs. I would expect to see more Mythic items as a tiered loot system.

It would be nice if the loot in Epic Necro 4 worked similar to the raid items from Fall of Truth - dropping at different upgrade tiers per difficulty, but that seems impossible as each has a choice of augment color when upgrading

Monkey_Archer
08-25-2014, 09:30 PM
Honestly, imo the best was how FoT was handled. You could run EE for chance at special named augment, get loot fully upgraded or you could run it at a lower difficulty and spend coms to upgrade your loot. Really gave everyone something to strive for.

I agree with this. If Normal/Hard players getting to obtain the best loot without needing to run Elite is such a major concern, the way FOT handles this is much better then single tier BTA stuff.

slarden
08-25-2014, 10:04 PM
Honestly, imo the best was how FoT was handled. You could run EE for chance at special named augment, get loot fully upgraded or you could run it at a lower difficulty and spend coms to upgrade your loot. Really gave everyone something to strive for.

I agree if they go with tiered loot upgradable loot is the way to go. That is effectively what they did in Haunted Halls except you didn't get your loot fully upgraded on EE, it just takes less runs. They can use COVs instead of Coms for the upgrade mechanism.

However, there are many complaints that people are getting loot too easily so it seems the new "mythic" concept might actually be a better answer. The devs said it drops on all difficulties, but the odds are much better on higher difficulties.

This means players can get decent gear reasonably quickly and getting all the best possible gear would be a longer grind. That is kind of what we had before U14 with greensteel, TOD rings and some epic gear being easy to get and other things like sands wilderness items being an absolute grind to epic.

Cetus
08-25-2014, 10:40 PM
I think the the FOT system was successful as well. Running on EE provided incentive in that you'd bypass a tremendous amount of grind for upgrade mats by just getting the upgraded version right away.

Either of these systems are more desirable than what we're currently getting.

slarden
08-25-2014, 11:15 PM
I think the the FOT system was successful as well. Running on EE provided incentive in that you'd bypass a tremendous amount of grind for upgrade mats by just getting the upgraded version right away.

Either of these systems are more desirable than what we're currently getting.

I think this would be a much better approach because people aren't shut out from loot based on difficulty, but the incentive to run EE is significant. Any sort of exclusive loot will be problematic.

They could even add a perk like making an item that drops on EE fully upgraded but not bound. Any items acquired on EN or EH that are upgraded becomes bound to character and can't be sold. This would make those EE drops worth a bit more.

I kind of like the mythic approach though because one of the common complaints is that people got their items the first week and then have nothing to do. This wouldn't be the case with mythics which will be a true grind if you need the items, but would be the case with tiered loot since it shortens the acquisition cycle.

Of course the devs can't win either way. Everyone will want the fully upgrade loot, but then some of the same folks will complain there is nothing to do one week after the raid comes out.

Alternative
08-26-2014, 01:11 AM
I'm going to run EE even without tiered loot if the drop rates on epic/mythic items are the highest. Don't really care if the loot is tiered or not but I'd really prefer the non-raid loot to be unbound.

Like now I run short EE halls with miior solo and sell eidolon necklaces for shards to stock up for eOrchard rerolls, with bound loot it's less money for turbine I'd think.

Eth
08-26-2014, 02:04 AM
I want the seal/scroll/shard system back. Never gonna happen, I know...

Munkenmo
08-26-2014, 02:07 AM
I want the seal/scroll/shard system back. Never gonna happen, I know...

I hope it returns with level 30 content. In the meantime for leveling loot, I'd love to see an upgrade system get added to epic hard / epic elite loot tables.

EN = items with no slot
EH = as above + ingredients to add a colorless slot (ingredient can be called EH socket)
EE = as above + ingredients to color slot or add secondary colored slot (ingredient can be called EE socket)

eg. In the case of Esos:
Base epic item + EH socket = Esos with colorles slot. (aka Esos tier 1)
Base epic item + EE socket also = Esos with colorless slot. (aka Esos tier 1)

Esos tier 1 can not be upgraded further with EH sockets.

Esos tier 1 + EE socket = Esos with red and colorless sockets. (aka Esos tier 2)

Sockets will be generic, but per quest pack, So I wouldn't be able to use a VON socket with a Sentinels epic item item.

I'd also prefer that upgraded items do not get an increase in minimum level.

Lonnbeimnech
08-26-2014, 02:16 AM
I want the seal/scroll/shard system back. Never gonna happen, I know...

They should have a merger of the 2 systems.

So people would have to get elite seal, elite shard, elite scroll, and elite base item. This would give you an Elite tier one item that could then be upgraded to tier 3 by gouging your eyes out and posting it on the ddo instagram page...

dunklezhan
08-26-2014, 02:27 AM
This community is so confusing. I'm sure when they DID do the different tiers of loot there was a massive outcry that it either somehow disincentivised folks or otherwise was bad for the game. I don't know which it is, and I never understood why (of course, I rarely understand loot arguments in this game, I get by fine with majority-lootgen). But there was definite 'we do not like this thing' from the community, which is WHY the Devs moved away from it. Maybe it was because it encouraged people who were not ready to run on Elite, and then complain it was too hard?

All I know is that I really really liked knowing that on harder difficulties my loot, if it dropped, would definitely be better, and I know that I hated the shard/seal/scroll system and that I also hate grindy crafting mechanics especially for raid loot just to make the loot I got from a successful completion usable.

But that's me. Generally, if I want something, it's not good for the game or fun (at least I assume that's why I'm in such a minority generally), so be careful what you wish for...

Munkenmo
08-26-2014, 02:37 AM
This community is so confusing. I'm sure when they DID do the different tiers of loot there was a massive outcry that it either somehow disincentivised folks or otherwise was bad for the game. I don't know which it is, and I never understood why (of course, I rarely understand loot arguments in this game, I get by fine with majority-lootgen). But there was definite 'we do not like this thing' from the community, which is WHY the Devs moved away from it. Maybe it was because it encouraged people who were not ready to run on Elite, and then complain it was too hard?

All I know is that I really really liked knowing that on harder difficulties my loot, if it dropped, would definitely be better, and I know that I hated the shard/seal/scroll system and that I also hate grindy crafting mechanics especially for raid loot just to make the loot I got from a successful completion usable.

But that's me. Generally, if I want something, it's not good for the game or fun (at least I assume that's why I'm in such a minority generally), so be careful what you wish for...

I hated that en/eh/ee had no upgrade path and that ee items had higher min levels than the lower counterparts. The system had potential, but ultimately like so many things here was flawed and then abandoned.

Zoda
08-26-2014, 03:16 AM
I want the seal/scroll/shard system back. Never gonna happen, I know...

That. Placing those things on the epic altar feels so good man... I made 2 epic Chaosblades a few months ago just for the heck of it (citw loot ruined my past plans I hehe).

I had such high hopes for the Tome of Legend/Shield Fragment/Tapestry turn ins for epic Orchard... Would have been similar.

Seljuck
08-26-2014, 03:27 AM
/not signed

This loot system was big mistake. Differences between each item tier was marginal in most cases. seriously, hours or days of farming just to get same item with one more augment slot? I have no words for this. Beside loot tiered system split serwer population even more to so called 'pro' and 'casual' players.

From the other hand Fot system is much better. Everyone gets mostly same item that can be upgr. If u find item on higher diff u have it already upgraded.

If u want more 'carrots' to run EE let's restore scroll, seal and shard system. Make it all unbound, put scrolls to all epic diff, and attach scrolls to different quest to avoid problematic drop rates from desert. Scale drop rates to difficulty. Let seals drop in eh at say 25% drop rate and at ee to 50%. Shards should drops in ee only at drop rate of 25%. Blank weapons should drop in each difficulty but let them be btc.

In that system you will have reason to run ee. Drop rates would be high enough to avoid rage . Everyone would be happy.

Portalcat
08-26-2014, 03:45 AM
Don't really care if the loot is tiered or not but I'd really prefer the non-raid loot to be unbound.

This is by far the most important part - we need to be able to sell/trade our loot. Otherwise, there's no endgame left to play for toons that already have the gear they need. BtA made the lifespan of E3BC very short.




There does generally need to be a special incentive to run EE over EH/EN. You need a critical mass of people choosing to play EE in order for groups to be readily put together, and without a good reason to play EE, it's not a surprise that we end up seeing things like endless EN Deathwyrm and EH HH LFMs.

EE quests tend to take about twice as long as EH quests in my rough, anecdotal experience. They also have a meaningful chance for failure, at least among harder quests, and often require grouping if you're not running a particular soloable build (and grouping is a great thing to encourage!). 1.5x to 2x the droprate of the same loot, if we're even getting that in 3BC and HH, is not a great enough incentive to be worth the trouble for most folks.


Tiered loot is one option, and it's an option that's satisfied the power gamers in the past. If truly tiered loot is off the table, then either exclusive items or items that clearly stated to be so rare on EN/EH that they may as well not exist outside of EE, is another good option (mythic items could fill this role if the droprates are chosen properly). I could live with mythic items that dropped 5x+ more often on EE than EH - and in fact, having a lottery feel to EH is probably better than tiers which flat-out make it impossible to pull the best stuff.

People often cite FoT as getting things right for raid loot. Lest we forget, FoT also had a very useful and at the time incredibly valuable augment that was exclusive to EE.







Whatever happens though, let us trade/sell the loot.

moo_cow
08-26-2014, 03:55 AM
I want the seal/scroll/shard system back. Never gonna happen, I know...

YES PLZ. Serious question to the devs .... how do you build an endgame when every time you release content it becomes worn out before the next update? From what I can tell the devs have tried to make the drop rates incredibly low, as anyone can tell with phlogs and the thunderholme raid loot. Getting an epic items from scroll seals shards was tough work. And it should be! It is for endgame gear, the best gear in the game. Trying to pull 1 item after 40 runs is a PITA, but getting your second last piece of an item sure does feel good. I would even be okay with tiered loot again for the ee difficulty but shards/seals/scrolls would be so much better.

Wizza
08-26-2014, 04:20 AM
I don't expect them to go back to the tiered loot system as it was for those packs. I would expect to see more Mythic items as a tiered loot system.

It would be nice if the loot in Epic Necro 4 worked similar to the raid items from Fall of Truth - dropping at different upgrade tiers per difficulty, but that seems impossible as each has a choice of augment color when upgrading

Mythic items are a great chance to go back to tiered-ish loot system. They should work like FoT:

EN: You may get an Epic Helm of Minos + 100% chance of 1 Mythic Commendation
EH: You may get an Epic Helm of Minos + 100% chance of 1d2 Mythic Commendation
EE: You may get a Mythic Helm of Minos + 100% chance of 1d2+1 Mythic Commendation

Uprade path from Epic to Mythic: You need the Epic item + 20 Mythic Commendation.

Which traslates into 20 Normal raid, 14 Hard Raid, 8 EE Raid (in case you are unlucky and couldn't pull the Mythic helm in one of your EE runs).

This traslates into actually higher drop rates of getting a Mythic as the difficulty goes up. Obviously put reasonable drop rates to the Helms.


/not signed

This loot system was big mistake. Differences between each item tier was marginal in most cases. seriously, hours or days of farming just to get same item with one more augment slot? I have no words for this. Beside loot tiered system split serwer population even more to so called 'pro' and 'casual' players.

So much incoherence. If the difference between each item tier was marginal then why you, casual player, care at all? YOU DON'T. WE DO, because we are ELITIST, ENDGAMERS, WHATEVERYOUWANTTOCALLUSGAMERS. Every point of DPS missing counts for us. Every point of PRR counts. Every augment slot, every enhancement, every single thing counts for you.


Another thing I miss from Tiered loot: selling them. Trading is dead in this game at the moment. Nothing to trade for, nothing to search for. Give us back our saleable items.

Silverleafeon
08-26-2014, 04:31 AM
One of the big problems with the tri-tiered loot system is simple extra coding time.

For example, would you like to receive three tiers of loot but no raid for update 23?
Or perhaps no Barb + Pally fixes?

It takes a lot more time to do the tri-tier.


Although a super rare augment sounds interesting, we know what happened there.
At least mythic items cannot be put into a bag?

Wizza
08-26-2014, 04:35 AM
One of the big problems with the tri-tiered loot system is simple extra coding time.

For example, would you like to receive three tiers of loot but no raid for update 23?
Or perhaps no Barb + Pally fixes?

It takes a lot more time to do the tri-tier.


Although a super rare augment sounds interesting, we know what happened there.
At least mythic items cannot be put into a bag?

This excuse of more extra coding time has lasted enough. I don't care at all if they need take 1 extra month to code the tiered loot. I can wait one more month if that means the content is going to survive for more than 2 weeks.

Munkenmo
08-26-2014, 04:39 AM
One of the big problems with the tri-tiered loot system is simple extra coding time.

For example, would you like to receive three tiers of loot but no raid for update 23?
Or perhaps no Barb + Pally fixes?

It takes a lot more time to do the tri-tier.


Although a super rare augment sounds interesting, we know what happened there.
At least mythic items cannot be put into a bag?

Trying to compare the time spent making the same set of items 3 times and a quest/raid or enhancement tree overhaul is just silly. Shame on you for believing otherwise.

Seljuck
08-26-2014, 05:04 AM
So much incoherence. If the difference between each item tier was marginal then why you, casual player, care at all? YOU DON'T. WE DO, because we are ELITIST, ENDGAMERS, WHATEVERYOUWANTTOCALLUSGAMERS. Every point of DPS missing counts for us. Every point of PRR counts. Every augment slot, every enhancement, every single thing counts for you.


Another thing I miss from Tiered loot: selling them. Trading is dead in this game at the moment. Nothing to trade for, nothing to search for. Give us back our saleable items.

Casual.. lol hahaha. I'm apparently not as 'pro' player as you are.. ( did u sense sarcasm here?) Before you pingeonholed someone for someone's beliefs read with understanding please, signature too. Do you know casual player with toon at 17th life ? Cuz I don't.

Beside attacking someone for someone's beliefs is discrimination.. just saying.

Flavilandile
08-26-2014, 05:06 AM
This excuse of more extra coding time has lasted enough. I don't care at all if they need take 1 extra month to code the tiered loot. I can wait one more month if that means the content is going to survive for more than 2 weeks.


Trying to compare the time spent making the same set of items 3 times and a quest/raid or enhancement tree overhaul is just silly. Shame on you for believing otherwise.


Consider that DDO is just one step up from Maintenance mode... and that Dev Time is at premium... So yes it all boil down to what gets done in a given time frame :
- Tri-Tiered items
- New Quests ( or epiced old )
- New Loot
- Enhancement Trees
- New Race
- New Class
- Revamp of old Adventure Area

You can only choose 3 from the list.... make your choice.

Zoda
08-26-2014, 05:22 AM
Consider that DDO is just one step up from Maintenance mode... and that Dev Time is at premium... So yes it all boil down to what gets done in a given time frame :
- Tri-Tiered items
- New Quests ( or epiced old )
- New Loot
- Enhancement Trees
- New Race
- New Class
- Revamp of old Adventure Area

You can only choose 3 from the list.... make your choice.

Okay, my 3 choices are: new quests, new quests and finally new quests. Old quests can stay heroic, I played them enough during trs.

Monkey_Archer
08-26-2014, 05:23 AM
Okay, my 3 choices are: new quests, new quests and finally new quests. Old quests can stay heroic, I played them enough during trs.
Exactly. If giving up loot and new enhancements can get us new content every update, please do.

Wizza
08-26-2014, 05:38 AM
Casual.. lol hahaha. I'm apparently not as 'pro' player as you are.. ( did u sense sarcasm here?) Before you pingeonholed someone for someone's beliefs read with understanding please, signature too. Do you know casual player with toon at 17th life ? Cuz I don't.

Beside attacking someone for someone's beliefs is discrimination.. just saying.

You as in a general casual player you. I guess I didn't make myself clear enough. Not referring to you, since I've no idea who you are.

You still didn't answer my question.


Exactly. If giving up loot and new enhancements can get us new content every update, please do.

If that new content survives only for 2 weeks (cough E3BC cough), then what's the point? GH Survived for 2-4 months because of its loot. We were running ToR like crazy to get our Helms and Globes and to actually sell them.

slarden
08-26-2014, 06:01 AM
One of the big problems with the tri-tiered loot system is simple extra coding time.

For example, would you like to receive three tiers of loot but no raid for update 23?
Or perhaps no Barb + Pally fixes?

It takes a lot more time to do the tri-tier.


Although a super rare augment sounds interesting, we know what happened there.
At least mythic items cannot be put into a bag?

This This This This. People likely underestimate the amount of extra dev time required for the tiered loot.

I think having mythic version of all items may end up being the best design yet. Nobody can say they everything after one week so there is no reason to run the content. I love the FOT system, but at the same time it makes acquiring EE items to easy and they always complain it's too easy to get things.

As it stands mythic items seem experimental because there are only 4. Imagine if all epic items had a mythic counterpart. It would be hard for anyone to get all the items they wanted - especially if bound. However, realistically Turbine should consider making mythics unbound because it would likely increase AS sales. I personally prefer bound items, but I realize some people are motivated to obtain AS.

Xyfiel
08-26-2014, 06:02 AM
One of the big problems with the tri-tiered loot system is simple extra coding time.

For example, would you like to receive three tiers of loot but no raid for update 23?
Or perhaps no Barb + Pally fixes?

It takes a lot more time to do the tri-tier.


Although a super rare augment sounds interesting, we know what happened there.
At least mythic items cannot be put into a bag?


Feather told us last year on ML when tiered loot was discussed it took him an extra 10 mins per item to make 2 more tiers. Myth busted.

slarden
08-26-2014, 06:10 AM
So much incoherence. If the difference between each item tier was marginal then why you, casual player, care at all? YOU DON'T. WE DO, because we are ELITIST, ENDGAMERS, WHATEVERYOUWANTTOCALLUSGAMERS. Every point of DPS missing counts for us. Every point of PRR counts. Every augment slot, every enhancement, every single thing counts for you.

Another thing I miss from Tiered loot: selling them. Trading is dead in this game at the moment. Nothing to trade for, nothing to search for. Give us back our saleable items.

Your point about items to sell is valid, although I suspect Turbine's data will show Haunted Halls did quite well with that and there was no tiered loot system.

Posts like this are also very insightful for Turbine to understand the type of people asking for tiered loot and how they treat other players with different viewpoints. The bottom line is that no player likes to be shut out from a chance to get the best items which is why an upgrade system is needed if tiered loot is re-introduced.

I hope it's not, I think the new mythic items are a much better concept and I wish all the items were given mythic counterparts (or at least more). I generally prefer bound loot so people actually earn it, but perhaps non-raid mythic items should be unbound because this would obviously be a good revenue-generator for Turbine. They need more than 4 items however to profit from this.

slarden
08-26-2014, 06:14 AM
Feather told us last year on ML when tiered loot was discussed it took him an extra 10 mins per item to make 2 more tiers. Myth busted.

Ironically the same people that abused and ultimately drove away Feather are now demanding his system back. He left and the system went with him.

I don't care if they bring it back, but I think it would be a mistake to do without an upgrade system of some kind. However, I think the mythic items might work better because the big complaints about 3bc was everyone got all the loot they needed in a few days and had no reason to run the content.

Tiered loot doesn't make that problem go away but super-rare drops do.

Seljuck
08-26-2014, 07:01 AM
You still didn't answer my question.



I care, because I'm running this quests, I'm looting this items and I'm part of game community where I can share my opinion with others.

Opinion: I feel disappointed when I find an item that is different from the weaker version only by slots, which are now everywhere. I have to spend more time to finish EE and as reward I'll get slot. This system does not appeal to me. That's it.

Wizza
08-26-2014, 07:22 AM
Your point about items to sell is valid, although I suspect Turbine's data will show Haunted Halls did quite well with that and there was no tiered loot system.

Posts like this are also very insightful for Turbine to understand the type of people asking for tiered loot and how they treat other players with different viewpoints. The bottom line is that no player likes to be shut out from a chance to get the best items which is why an upgrade system is needed if tiered loot is re-introduced.

I hope it's not, I think the new mythic items are a much better concept and I wish all the items were given mythic counterparts (or at least more). I generally prefer bound loot so people actually earn it, but perhaps non-raid mythic items should be unbound because this would obviously be a good revenue-generator for Turbine. They need more than 4 items however to profit from this.

Well, if they don't want to give us the tiered loot, at least let us sell the one that we are getting. There is no point for me, or anyone, to run these quests after we get our items. These quests are ML28 IIRC, so not even for XP probably.


Ironically the same people that abused and ultimately drove away Feather are now demanding his system back. He left and the system went with him.

I don't care if they bring it back, but I think it would be a mistake to do without an upgrade system of some kind. However, I think the mythic items might work better because the big complaints about 3bc was everyone got all the loot they needed in a few days and had no reason to run the content.

Tiered loot doesn't make that problem go away but super-rare drops do.

We drove Feather away for many reasons. And it was NOT his idea the tiered loot. That suggestion was given away a long time ago by tons of people in the community, he just put the pieces togheter.


I care, because I'm running this quests, I'm looting this items and I'm part of game community where I can share my opinion with others.

Opinion: I feel disappointed when I find an item that is different from the weaker version only by slots, which are now everywhere. I have to spend more time to finish EE and as reward I'll get slot. This system does not appeal to me. That's it.

So, you are saying that since the EE is SLIGHTLY better than the EH, you don't like the system? Makes zero sense. What would you like the difference to be?

With no tiered loot, you are just pleasing casuals and endgamers are unhappy. Content lasts for 1 week. Game dies faster. With tiered loot, everyone get the loot they want, we will have a reason to run content, everyone happy since the difference is so small that casuals shouldn't care about it. You are not supposed to get the best loot in Normal. Risk vs reward. It's really not that hard to understand.

Braegan
08-26-2014, 07:29 AM
I want the seal/scroll/shard system back. Never gonna happen, I know...

I do miss that system too. It was tedious sometimes but had more longevity than any system since.

Gljosh
08-26-2014, 07:31 AM
I am ok with tiered loot that has the ability to be upgraded (FoT). That being said, people complain about Power Creep so how does "slightly stronger" item placed on the "best builds/player" not meet the concept of a power creep? The "best" players complain the game is too easy but constantly want a better item/weapon to make the game easier?

Purkilius
08-26-2014, 07:49 AM
One of the big problems with the tri-tiered loot system is simple extra coding time.

For example, would you like to receive three tiers of loot but no raid for update 23?
Or perhaps no Barb + Pally fixes?

It takes a lot more time to do the tri-tier.


Although a super rare augment sounds interesting, we know what happened there.
At least mythic items cannot be put into a bag?

I share your frustration about the debacle but the carrot needs to be bigger and more special for EE incentive!

Purkilius
08-26-2014, 07:52 AM
I do miss that system too. It was tedious sometimes but had more longevity than any system since.


Yep had smile on my face for a week after completing an ESoS :)

but that is probably more coding than tiered loot...

Purkilius
08-26-2014, 07:54 AM
I am ok with tiered loot that has the ability to be upgraded (FoT). That being said, people complain about Power Creep so how does "slightly stronger" item placed on the "best builds/player" not meet the concept of a power creep? The "best" players complain the game is too easy but constantly want a better item/weapon to make the game easier?


no just want incentive and an endgame :)

legendkilleroll
08-26-2014, 07:54 AM
They could have done, chance for the epic items to drop so anyone can look for the gear they want but then people who want to grind and get the best gear have to collect the scroll/seal/shard to make the epic item a mythic

I wasnt really around back in those days, i was still new to the game and wasnt til the first xpac when id run alot of epics so i didnt go through what alot of people did with grinding to craft the epic gear they wanted, with that said, even now every time i craft an epic item it feels like an accomplishment

Erofen
08-26-2014, 08:10 AM
I vote for the epic quest items from eNecro to be Bound to Account on Equip. This way the loot can still be sold AND passed between alts. I miss the tiered loot system instead of the current farm EN till your eyes bleed system. I do hope that this content lasts longer than 2 weeks. I for one still run Titan and Abbot because it is just a fun raid, and I hope that Epic Abbot is as well.

Gljosh
08-26-2014, 08:12 AM
They could have done, chance for the epic items to drop so anyone can look for the gear they want but then people who want to grind and get the best gear have to collect the scroll/seal/shard to make the epic item a mythic

I wasnt really around back in those days, i was still new to the game and wasnt til the first xpac when id run alot of epics so i didnt go through what alot of people did with grinding to craft the epic gear they wanted, with that said, even now every time i craft an epic item it feels like an accomplishment

When I made my Epic Chimera's Crown (slotted with Master's Gift and a SP Gem) and Epic Red Dragon Armor (slotted with Vitality and PRR) it felt great. someday before the servers close I would love to have my Epic Charged Gauntlet and Epic Wolf Whistle (I have 3 druid past lives). Too bad most of that gear is ridiculously weak now.

Munkenmo
08-26-2014, 08:24 AM
Consider that DDO is just one step up from Maintenance mode... and that Dev Time is at premium... So yes it all boil down to what gets done in a given time frame :
- Tri-Tiered items
- New Quests ( or epiced old )
- New Loot
- Enhancement Trees
- New Race
- New Class
- Revamp of old Adventure Area

You can only choose 3 from the list.... make your choice.

I'm well aware how few devs there are left, the quality of the game is pretty indicative of the resources now being invested in it.

This game is very obviously in a state of flux, and if it wants to end up a successful maintenance mode it needs to get their loot and quests sorted out. There's no point in churning out content that's too easy to beat, has items too easy to obtain and xp that makes them not worth repeating. The loot design has been abysmal since GH, the devs have stopped catering to niches or working on obvious alternates and have just ramped power creep.

The melee power / ranged power / magical protection changes are interesting, and potentially could give the devs room to make much more incremental increases in item power again. In the meantime though, I can maintain my hiatus knowing that anything I grind out between now and level 30 is going to be completely pointless.

In the mean time making tri-tiered items using systems that have already been implemented should take next to no time at all, most likely tri-tiers means that instead of working slowly one day till the end of their shift said dev would work reasonably till the end of their shift, the time allocated & spent coding items likely wouldn't change, just the developers efficiency during that period.

I'll concede that making an upgrade path like the one I suggested earlier would take longer since the system has to be made. If one quest is the price to pay for all the old and yet to come tri-tiered loot being replaced with upgradeable versions, then I'll gladly see that quest dissappear. Ultimately though, none of this matters, the games shedding players atm, without robust loot systems that aren't susceptible to "workarounds" and a solid platform of quests at level 30 DDO will continue to shed players.

MeliCat
08-26-2014, 08:33 AM
Another one here who prefers tiered loot - with the proviso that the hard and elite versions are only a minor increase in power from the base item.

I like that normal is much easier to get and can be used as a stop gap while it might be a while before you get the elite version.

Better than > 100 runs trying to get a single very rare item that you need to complete your gear set up.

11001
08-26-2014, 08:37 AM
Not signed, tiered loot will only cause more conflicts between high end players and the usual folk (who are not very well geared to begin with).

Eth
08-26-2014, 08:38 AM
They could have done, chance for the epic items to drop so anyone can look for the gear they want but then people who want to grind and get the best gear have to collect the scroll/seal/shard to make the epic item a mythic

Love this idea.



I wasnt really around back in those days, i was still new to the game and wasnt til the first xpac when id run alot of epics so i didnt go through what alot of people did with grinding to craft the epic gear they wanted, with that said, even now every time i craft an epic item it feels like an accomplishment
It's quite simple. The item you want had 4 parts, which mostly all where rare and dependant on the item, required you to run different quests. The good thing about it was, that you made some progress. Get a scroll here, get a seal there. Run stuff daily and eventually you got all the things together.

The only thing that was broken and why people remember it as a bad system, was the fact that the balance between droprates of shards, seals and scrolls was completely off depending on the pack, but that can be adjusted.

And yes, dragging the 4 items into the epic altar and finally crafting the item always felt great.

maddong
08-26-2014, 08:46 AM
I agree that tiered loot is good.

FAQ
08-26-2014, 08:47 AM
Honestly, imo the best was how FoT was handled. You could run EE for chance at special named augment, get loot fully upgraded or you could run it at a lower difficulty and spend coms to upgrade your loot. Really gave everyone something to strive for.

I must agree with this ^.

But speaking of loot, I loathe BTCoE loot. I would much rather see unbound or BTA loot.

Edit: Oh, I really hated tiered loot because of the increase in min level. The same reason I really dislike Alchemical crafting and am not crazy about Thunderforged either. Greensteel is perfect for me: upgrade tiers, maintain min level

Dilbon
08-26-2014, 08:54 AM
Tiered loot was a horrible idea and I'm glad it's gone.

11001
08-26-2014, 08:58 AM
Tiered loot was a horrible idea and I'm glad it's gone.

This.

Impaqt
08-26-2014, 09:15 AM
Upgradeable Tiered loot is a good thing.

Tiered loot for the sake of giving elitists something to brag about is pointless.

Getting rid of tiered loot, the way it was implemented, was a good thing.

people LOVE upgrading stuff. It gives items longevity and gives folks a sense of progression.

Cetus
08-26-2014, 09:29 AM
Tiered loot was a horrible idea and I'm glad it's gone.

Then you should be glad that the months of development time spent on manufacturing new content is thrown to the wayside in a week or two because you can easily get all the reward out of the content within that timeframe.

You should also be glad that this game has no economy.

You should also be glad that you have zero incentive to run harder content.

Be content with mediocrity, with some vanilla character running normal mode and enjoying the "story". MMO's tend to have a central pathway in character advancement, building, and progression, to not want to improve yourself in an MMO is asinine to me.


I don't understand how players playing an MMO are content with NOT wanting more for their characters. How can people be content with just playing normal, and never pushing the envelope to try hard, or elite? How can finally doing hard and elite not yield reward for ones efforts? Why does the existence of EE exclusive gear automatically make people think that this "shuts" people out from getting the best gear? It doesn't shut you out. You can go in any time and do it - it is supposed to be difficult, if you win then you get something for it.

Levonestral
08-26-2014, 09:46 AM
I believe it's time for Turbine to seriously consider an "Epic Crafting" system...

Basically this would consist of "ingredients" that can be collected from every single epic raid/quest in the game. Or perhaps make use of what they have now and reduce the collections nightmare we have now and put them around in more places. The higher level of the raid/quest the higher number of those ingredients you can collect. (N/H/E have higher values within the raids/quests). You could also consider "special" EE-only ingredients for those who want higher value from EE.

Then, stop all this nonsense of forcing us to have to rebuild all our gear sets every time you decide to introduce new content. Instead, just simply introduce a new "effect" for the crafting.

Turbine can continue to provide raid loot, quest loot etc but these would be more "interim" items than permanent while you work toward your ultimate (and self controlled) goals !

Here's how I think it should work: (yes, I've stolen the entire concept from Shroud, but want to apply it to epic as a whole)

- Let us create a "base item" using any various amounts of these ingredients.
- Each item (helmet, belt, weapon etc) would have a limit on how many "points" you can spend on it to maintain a certain level. For example, level: 24 points.
- Let us place anything we want on that item that would fall within that "point limit". (think combine current crafting with shroud and beyond).
- Each of those effects would have a point value assigned, forcing you to choose what you want, but still not be able to put too much on at once.
- This could be anything from an actual effect to augment slot options.

This way you can make any level item you want using any of the available options, only limited by the points themselves. Why restrict us with gear, let us be just as creative with gear as we are with builds !

At any point in time should we decide we wanted to replace something (new gear items, something cool to augment etc) we don't have to destroy our previous work, instead give us a "rebuild" option that lets us replace pieces as we desire without having to start over (most people I know hate starting over on long term projects due to game/gear changes). Perhaps limit this to a looted random item so people can't do it too often...once again very similar to what they did in shroud.

With all raids/quests dropping these ingredients, it allows everyone to bring everything back into the "end game" scope because potentially they can all give you something to work with. Yes, people will likely stick with higher level content, but they can also continue their efforts while running ETR's on lower content. (thus the train never stops!)

Honestly, I hear a lot of complaints from people who just can't "keep up" with all the changes. New loot is great, but constantly making previous (last update previous!) loot worthless on each Update is starting to get really, really old.

Flame away, agree, alter or ignore :)

Zoda
08-26-2014, 09:47 AM
Upgradeable Tiered loot is a good thing.

Tiered loot for the sake of giving elitists something to brag about is pointless.

Getting rid of tiered loot, the way it was implemented, was a good thing.

people LOVE upgrading stuff. It gives items longevity and gives folks a sense of progression.

Brag to who? We have our own little society of jerks and if you are a decent person, we won't accept you anyway, and we can't brag with e/e loot to each other because we all have it. And in caase if we do have something to brag about that usually inspires our fellow memebers. (irony intended)

Get real. Reward should come for an effort not for being potato at the right place.


Then you should be glad that the months of development time spent on manufacturing new content is thrown to the wayside in a week or two because you can easily get all the reward out of the content within that timeframe.

You should also be glad that this game has no economy.

You should also be glad that you have zero incentive to run harder content.

Be content with mediocrity, with some vanilla character running normal mode and enjoying the "story". MMO's tend to have a central pathway in character advancement, building, and progression, to not want to improve yourself in an MMO is asinine to me.


I don't understand how players playing an MMO are content with NOT wanting more for their characters. How can people be content with just playing normal, and never pushing the envelope to try hard, or elite? How can finally doing hard and elite not yield reward for ones efforts? Why does the existence of EE exclusive gear automatically make people think that this "shuts" people out from getting the best gear? It doesn't shut you out. You can go in any time and do it - it is supposed to be difficult, if you win then you get something for it.

Can't agree more.

If someone wants to play a game for story and smelling pretty little digital flowers an MMO is the wrong place for him/her. I suggest the Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate series for that, best evah.

slarden
08-26-2014, 10:00 AM
Then you should be glad that the months of development time spent on manufacturing new content is thrown to the wayside in a week or two because you can easily get all the reward out of the content within that timeframe.

You should also be glad that this game has no economy.

You should also be glad that you have zero incentive to run harder content.

Be content with mediocrity, with some vanilla character running normal mode and enjoying the "story". MMO's tend to have a central pathway in character advancement, building, and progression, to not want to improve yourself in an MMO is asinine to me.


I don't understand how players playing an MMO are content with NOT wanting more for their characters. How can people be content with just playing normal, and never pushing the envelope to try hard, or elite? How can finally doing hard and elite not yield reward for ones efforts? Why does the existence of EE exclusive gear automatically make people think that this "shuts" people out from getting the best gear? It doesn't shut you out. You can go in any time and do it - it is supposed to be difficult, if you win then you get something for it.

You and others make many assumptions about people that are opposed to exclusive tiered loot. Most of us are running the content on EE and don't like tiered loot because we think it has a negative impact on the game overall.

People want to progress and by making the best loot only available on EE it is kind of thwarts that sense of progress. The Haunted Halls model is much better where they can get the item, but it will take longer to obtain and upgrade on lower difficulties. Once they get their item they might want to move up and try another difficulty.

The upgrade path you mentioned earlier is better because that sense of progress is there. If they do tiered loot that is the way to do it.

JOTMON
08-26-2014, 10:19 AM
I like tiered loot it allows people to get gear and still strive for better versions of same/similar gear, it also allows a wider range of availability to player levels.
Gianthold was a great example of this.

The upgradeable loot was also decent, it allowed those that were unable to successfully complete the highest difficulty an option to improve their gear by repetitive lower difficulty.
It made sense.. run 30-40 EN to upgrade your item or 10ish EE.. challenge & reward for difficulty... incentive to run and challenge yourself to harder content for improved drop rates and better versions of rewards.

I am not a fan of BTCoE named gear.. it allows people who have not bought the packs, flagged the quests, or even step foot into the packs content to "Buy" the best of the best items from those zones..
You should at least have to run the content to get access to the items from that content.
EE items should never have been sellable.

BTA makes more sense to me.. I am the same player regardless of the toon I opt to bring into the challenge..
As the paying customer behind the toons I play, I have purchased access to the packs, run the content, and can opt to bring whichever alt toon that best suits the party makeup.

We are seeing more people coming into the game expecting instant access to endgame content without time investment just because of a sense of entitlement..
a growth of casual players complain of not having access to the same items.. which is BS.. they have access they just don't want to work for it, or invest time in a long term game.
So what if it takes them 4 months instead of 4 days.. its a reward for time investment.. play longer.




Consider that DDO is just one step up from Maintenance mode... and that Dev Time is at premium... So yes it all boil down to what gets done in a given time frame :
- Tri-Tiered items
- New Quests ( or epiced old )
- New Loot
- Enhancement Trees
- New Race
- New Class
- Revamp of old Adventure Area

You can only choose 3 from the list.... make your choice.

pft.. more doom posts.. and from a players council...
the choose 3 bs is just that.. bs...

We understand we can only get a limited supply and only a few things are available at a time, but what we get has to keep us occupied.
The occasional treat perks us up in the short term, but we cant survive on treats(and neither will the game).. we need meals (content with substance) .. and the promise of more treats in the near future.


DDO is poisoning its own path by removing developers and reducing content... they are forcing the game towards maintenance mode.
We already poured a lot of money into expansions that got sucked away by WB instead of being reinvested back into DDO development.
If they make more content we will play and more people will come and play.. stagnate the game and people will go play something else.
The money vampires of WB don't care they will suck the funds out of the game and discard the husk then move onto the next plump prize.

Games like WOW understand the MMO gaming concept quite well.. feed the people when they are hungry, but not enough for them to engorge themselves.
Always keep them a little hungry with the prize of more just within reach...

Once the prize no longer appears attainable then you will lose our attention... and once it is lost it is difficult to get it back.

memloch
08-26-2014, 10:29 AM
I see no reason for tiered loot.

What I find funny is that on one hand you have people talking about how great the end game was when cap was at 20. On the other hand people talking about how they hate the seal/scroll/shard system. It was the Seal/Scroll/Shard system that made that end game what it was. You had to run quests to get the parts to make your item. It took a long time and it did feel good to make an item.

As they start creating the new end game my vote would be to bring back the seal/scroll/shard system.

Dilbon
08-26-2014, 10:30 AM
The main problem with tiered loot is that the items are fundamentally different at higher difficulties. Added effects and different coloured slots. That's bad, makes EN/EH items often not worth it. Also being able to sell EE items is an awful idea, it's borderline cheating if you buy one in the AH for peanuts. And three tiers is too much, two is enough.

I will support tiered loot if these conditions are met:

1. Only two tiers, normal and elite/mythic/whatever.
2. Elite items only have bigger numbers but otherwise they are equal to normal items. Same ML. No extra effects, same coloured slots. +11 stat vs. +12 stat, +10 resist vs. +11 resist, 150 spellpower vs. 162 spellpower, that sort of thing.
3. Elite items are bound to account/character on acquire. They can't be traded.

JOTMON
08-26-2014, 10:45 AM
You and others make many assumptions about people that are opposed to exclusive tiered loot. Most of us are running the content on EE and don't like tiered loot because we think it has a negative impact on the game overall.

People want to progress and by making the best loot only available on EE it is kind of thwarts that sense of progress. The Haunted Halls model is much better where they can get the item, but it will take longer to obtain and upgrade on lower difficulties. Once they get their item they might want to move up and try another difficulty.

The upgrade path you mentioned earlier is better because that sense of progress is there. If they do tiered loot that is the way to do it.

Haunted halls was a great quest.. but the loot was Over Powered for the challenge...
Items out of here are better than both the raids and are lower min level... some of these items are currently best in game items.

Ran a couple EE's didn't get much reward wise, but was a fun quest to run.. got killed in traps a lot.. but was still fun..
Then I ran it on solo Epic Casual twice because there was nothing else going on and I was bored..and got 3 different named items per run.. pretty much got everything there was to get from it that was of any interest to me.
Many others didn't even run the quest just bought the items off the ASAH... or regular AH..

This is not a good model for quests...where is the motivation to buy the pack, Expansion, team up with others, stockpile resources, , flag for raid, hunt resources to defend against bosses(like fire resists/absorption for peaks), challenge to more difficult content..
Why have difficulty choices if there is no reward improvement or better prize options.. there isn't..

Raids have the incremental 20th reward list.. that's motivation to run raids more.. but...
Why run raids 20x on EE.. there isn't any motivation to or reason to.... EE once for Favor/challenge.. then EN to 20th's.
The reward for challenge has been lost in the evolution of DDO.

Enoach
08-26-2014, 10:50 AM
I think of all the Loot systems the two I found to be the most available/rewarding for all playstyles...

1. Scroll/Shard/Seal System - While it suffered in drops it gave incentive to run higher difficulties due to a higher percentage of drops. One change that could be made is a build system where you have Base and each of the Scroll/Shard/Seal could unlock parts of the epic item

2. Upgrade System like Fall of Truth, where Higher difficulties dropped a higher tier of the item. But a lower tier item could be updated through a building mechanic such as Commendations of Heroism and Relics.

Both systems allowed for different playstyles to get the top tier of the item, some just took longer to do so.

slarden
08-26-2014, 10:51 AM
Haunted halls was a great quest.. but the loot was Over Powered for the challenge...
Items out of here are better than both the raids and are lower min level... some of these items are currently best in game items.

Ran a couple EE's didn't get much reward wise, but was a fun quest to run.. got killed in traps a lot.. but was still fun..
Then I ran it on solo Epic Casual twice because there was nothing else going on and I was bored..and got 3 different named items per run.. pretty much got everything there was to get from it that was of any interest to me.
Many others didn't even run the quest just bought the items off the ASAH... or regular AH..

This is not a good model for quests...where is the motivation to buy the pack, Expansion, team up with others, stockpile resources, , flag for raid, hunt resources to defend against bosses(like fire resists/absorption for peaks), challenge to more difficult content..
Why have difficulty choices if there is no reward improvement or better prize options.. there isn't..

Raids have the incremental 20th reward list.. that's motivation to run raids more.. but...
Why run raids 20x on EE.. there isn't any motivation to or reason to.... EE once for Favor/challenge.. then EN to 20th's.
The reward for challenge has been lost in the evolution of DDO.

How did you get enough stones to upgrade after one run on EE and one on EC?

Mryal
08-26-2014, 10:56 AM
I see no reason for tiered loot.

What I find funny is that on one hand you have people talking about how great the end game was when cap was at 20. On the other hand people talking about how they hate the seal/scroll/shard system. It was the Seal/Scroll/Shard system that made that end game what it was. You had to run quests to get the parts to make your item. It took a long time and it did feel good to make an item.

As they start creating the new end game my vote would be to bring back the seal/scroll/shard system.

Exactly!



I don't understand how players playing an MMO are content with NOT wanting more for their characters. How can people be content with just playing normal, and never pushing the envelope to try hard, or elite? How can finally doing hard and elite not yield reward for ones efforts? Why does the existence of EE exclusive gear automatically make people think that this "shuts" people out from getting the best gear? It doesn't shut you out. You can go in any time and do it - it is supposed to be difficult, if you win then you get something for it.

Thats why shard/seal/scroll was so good.You not only had to run harder content, but you had to be able to run it for a lifetime :P

JOTMON
08-26-2014, 11:08 AM
I see no reason for tiered loot.

What I find funny is that on one hand you have people talking about how great the end game was when cap was at 20. On the other hand people talking about how they hate the seal/scroll/shard system. It was the Seal/Scroll/Shard system that made that end game what it was. You had to run quests to get the parts to make your item. It took a long time and it did feel good to make an item.

As they start creating the new end game my vote would be to bring back the seal/scroll/shard system.

On the face of it the shard/seal/scroll system was good.. unfortunately the randomness and rareness of certain items killed it.
things like Esos Shards, Spell storing Ring seal/shard.. became so rare of a drop that it became a hated system. The complete randomness of it was the failure.
the Exchange program revitalized part of it.. although the 3 to 1 was a bit generous.. should have been 20 to1.
Or even reward lists on incremental 20/40 for shards seals of your choice would have saved the system as most people wanted more than just 1 item from these packs.


Shroud was the best mechanic in my opinion.
tradable unbound ingredients, shards & stones were bound and required people to run the content to get them.
Crafting to build what you want to go where you want made these items useful to every toon/class combination regardless of any nuance they had.
if you wanted a belt or a helm or whatever... it was craftable and suited what you wanted where you wanted.
If you wanted a falchion or a dagger.. it was craftable and was fairly similar in damage output/benefit.
1 shroud was not enough.. most of my toons have 6 or more shroud gear/weapons each for clickies, and other unique effects buffs which are still usable right through to endgame.

The extent of choices was huge for greensteel.. this is where alchemical failed, Thunderforged is good atm.. but still more like alchemical in its limited choices..

Out of every pack available in DDO.. Shroud is the must have pack that every player should have in my opinion.

JOTMON
08-26-2014, 11:10 AM
How did you get enough stones to upgrade after one run on EE and one on EC?

fail to read I see.

Ran it twice on EE all 3 versions. so.. 6 times all options full exploration runs.
Rani it twice on Ecasual solo cause I was bored. full circuit. ..
also had run it many other times on enorm with groups farming items and collecting stones.

Caarb
08-26-2014, 11:22 AM
It's probably already been said but the reason I hate the EN/EH/EE system is the different MLs of each tier.

slarden
08-26-2014, 11:33 AM
fail to read I see.

Ran it twice on EE all 3 versions. so.. 6 times all options full exploration runs.
Rani it twice on Ecasual solo cause I was bored. full circuit. ..
also had run it many other times on enorm with groups farming items and collecting stones.

Based on what you wrote you couldn't have upgraded the items. Of course the "many other runs" part is new information so it appears you did have a reason to run it more after all.


Ran a couple EE's didn't get much reward wise, but was a fun quest to run.. got killed in traps a lot.. but was still fun..
Then I ran it on solo Epic Casual twice because there was nothing else going on and I was bored..and got 3 different named items per run.. pretty much got everything there was to get from it that was of any interest to me.
Many others didn't even run the quest just bought the items off the ASAH... or regular AH..



If you ran EE you had to the significant drop off in # of stones on EC and EN. This required many more runs to upgrade the 6 items you supposedly received with 2 EC runs. That's incredible luck to get 3 named its with such a low drop rate 2 runs of EC in a row. Almost unbelievable luck you might say.

IronClan
08-26-2014, 11:57 AM
Throughout the days of gianthold, high road, and the more recent stormhorns and wheloon adventure packs, the developers introduced a tiered loot system where the loot would gradually improve with the difficulty of the quest.

With this system, more casual easy going players were capable of tackling end-game content at a more comfortable level, while extracting the respective level of endgame loot.

At the same time, high-caliber players mostly avoided the lower difficulty options because there existed a carrot, an incentive, an impetus to consistently tackle endgame content at its most challenging level.

Additionally, the more casual easy going folk had complete opportunity to team up with their higher caliber friends in order to equip themselves with some of the higher level versions of endgame loot.

This system maintained the longevity of content throughout the entire endgame population. The likes of gianthold and high road were visited ad nauseum in order to acquire the different levels of treasure. Today, the epic elite versions of gianthold items are still relevant albeit the newer content that has been released since.

Today, the developers neglect to recognize the importance of such a system in maintaining the longevity of endgame content. Abandoning the tiered loot system left the most recent content barely lucrative. All of the loot has been extracted through repeated normal zerg runs. The haunted halls, temple of deathwyrm, and fire on thunder peak would have kept high calibre players busy for months trying to tackle these challenges in order to acquire the treasures.

Now, the developers are yet again making the same mistake. Epic orchard does not have a tiered loot system. All of the highest level loot is up for grabs the moment we decide to steam roll the content. Longevity is a fantasy, and I bet this is the reason why we perceive the game as "too easy" - the developers stopped manufacturing any impetus to do anything above normal.

Return the tiered loot system, please. Everybody wins.

I agree with this post and along with Ishr and a couple others have been bugging them about this on the PC forum I believe I am allowed to say that they have posted that they have no plans to bring this style of loot back, so if you agree that the game is lacking incentives to run more challenging difficulty then speaking up about it is probably the only way to get their attention and maybe get them to change their minds.

IronClan
08-26-2014, 12:14 PM
It's probably already been said but the reason I hate the EN/EH/EE system is the different MLs of each tier.

Why? It allowed me to pickup a skullsmasher plan my build based on that weapon farm one heroic version trade for one with a buddy and use them at 13 14 and 15 which worked wonderfully until I got my EN one out of the bank at 23 was it? Then the EE one a couple levels later, and the EE one is most definitely end game worthy even to 30 with a 3.5 (W) etc...

Why would you hate something that allows a character concept to remain viable and potent for a huge range of levels? Do we really only want TF weapons to be used past mid 20's? What a bland concept that would be. They are already screwing us out of cool stuff like Epic Deathnips because of Thunder forged weapons... the game needs loot to be viable for wider ranges of levels, tiered loot accomplished that and for some of us multiplied the number of loot items to quest for.

I didn't just need heroic normal skullsmasher, I tried for a hard and a EH one many times... I probably ran Crucible 10 or 15 more times than I otherwise would have ... longevity of content is increased with tiered loot and I think that fact is under appreciated by turbine.

Seljuck
08-26-2014, 12:17 PM
I was bored in work, so I made fast poll about loot systems. You can find it here. It's free, you don't have to make accounts. Vote ;)

End Game Loot Systems Poll (http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=53fcbd34e4b062e9cdb24904#)

droid327
08-26-2014, 12:27 PM
It's probably already been said but the reason I hate the EN/EH/EE system is the different MLs of each tier.

Yeah I skipped to the last page to make sure this point was addressed :)


Why? It allowed me to pickup a skullsmasher plan my build based on that weapon farm one heroic version trade for one with a buddy and use them at 13 14 and 15 which worked wonderfully until I got my EN one out of the bank at 23 was it? Then the EE one a couple levels later, and the EE one is most definitely end game worthy even to 30 with a 3.5 (W) etc...


Because of TRing, especially ETRing between 20-28. Elite versions should be better than Hard or Normal versions, in every scenario. But having tiered MLs means you can equip the Normal version 2 levels sooner, every life. So instead of just working and acquiring the Elite version, and then selling off your Normal and hard version, you have to keep all 3.

Also, with tiered items (as opposed to upgrade tiers), you're discouraged from socketing things in anything less than the Elite version, because why would you waste augments in a Hard version you're eventually going to replace? Upgrading lets you socket it now, and then upgrade it later with the augment intact.

Ideal option: the FoT system people are describing (I don't raid myself so I don't know exactly) where you can upgrade from the "low" to the "high" version, or just acquire the "high" version from running harder difficulties.
Next best option: a system like Cannith challenges or TF, where you acquire mats from running quests (more mats on higher difficulties) that you can upgrade your items with.
Distant third: The N/H/E tiered loot system (no upgrades), but with the same ML for N/H/E versions.

harry-pancreas
08-26-2014, 12:28 PM
I want the seal/scroll/shard system back. Never gonna happen, I know...

we're 2

Krell
08-26-2014, 12:29 PM
Throughout the days of gianthold, high road, and the more recent stormhorns and wheloon adventure packs, the developers introduced a tiered loot system where the loot would gradually improve with the difficulty of the quest.

With this system, more casual easy going players were capable of tackling end-game content at a more comfortable level, while extracting the respective level of endgame loot.

At the same time, high-caliber players mostly avoided the lower difficulty options because there existed a carrot, an incentive, an impetus to consistently tackle endgame content at its most challenging level.

Additionally, the more casual easy going folk had complete opportunity to team up with their higher caliber friends in order to equip themselves with some of the higher level versions of endgame loot.

This system maintained the longevity of content throughout the entire endgame population. The likes of gianthold and high road were visited ad nauseum in order to acquire the different levels of treasure. Today, the epic elite versions of gianthold items are still relevant albeit the newer content that has been released since.

Today, the developers neglect to recognize the importance of such a system in maintaining the longevity of endgame content. Abandoning the tiered loot system left the most recent content barely lucrative. All of the loot has been extracted through repeated normal zerg runs. The haunted halls, temple of deathwyrm, and fire on thunder peak would have kept high calibre players busy for months trying to tackle these challenges in order to acquire the treasures.

Now, the developers are yet again making the same mistake. Epic orchard does not have a tiered loot system. All of the highest level loot is up for grabs the moment we decide to steam roll the content. Longevity is a fantasy, and I bet this is the reason why we perceive the game as "too easy" - the developers stopped manufacturing any impetus to do anything above normal.

Return the tiered loot system, please. Everybody wins.

I like the "Mystic" versions better than a tiered system. Everyone has a chance to get it, but your odds are better running elite.

Takllin
08-26-2014, 12:31 PM
Based on what you wrote you couldn't have upgraded the items. Of course the "many other runs" part is new information so it appears you did have a reason to run it more after all.



If you ran EE you had to the significant drop off in # of stones on EC and EN. This required many more runs to upgrade the 6 items you supposedly received with 2 EC runs. That's incredible luck to get 3 named its with such a low drop rate 2 runs of EC in a row. Almost unbelievable luck you might say.

Where did he say that he fully upgraded all of the items he got? Could it also be possible that, if he did indeed upgrade all of them, that maybe guildies passed him the stones, or he bought them on the Auction House?

I think you are trying to pick a fight over nothing, I'm not sure why...Are you trying to imply that he "cheated"?

Personally though, I loved the seal/shard/scroll/item system and I wish one we hit level 30, that they would bring it back. I dislike the new mechanic of farming on ENorm, and wish there was a lot more incentive to run EE. Something like tiered loot, or FoT.

Vargouille
08-26-2014, 12:31 PM
I'm going to run EE even without tiered loot if the drop rates on epic/mythic items are the highest. Don't really care if the loot is tiered or not but I'd really prefer the non-raid loot to be unbound.

Like now I run short EE halls with miior solo and sell eidolon necklaces for shards to stock up for eOrchard rerolls, with bound loot it's less money for turbine I'd think.

Our current tentative drop rates for Mythic loot are up to ten times as high on Elite, compared to Hard.

MadCookieQueen
08-26-2014, 12:35 PM
I'll join on the bandwagon of FoT gear love. To me it was a wonderful system of rewarding harder difficulties but not shutting out players on lower difficulties. Also the idea that on EE you could get something unique for playing that difficulty was pretty amazing. So yeah I ran EE FoTs for the spiffy augment (which I admit was probably a mistake to make it unbound) and the fact that I didn't need to farm for comms to upgrade my stuff...that's just me being lazy.


I prefer loot as bound on equip for everything but raids. I think raid loot should be BtC. Why raid loot and not the rest, you ask.


Because...



I said so ;p

JOTMON
08-26-2014, 12:37 PM
If you ran EE you had to the significant drop off in # of stones on EC and EN. This required many more runs to upgrade the 6 items you supposedly received with 2 EC runs. That's incredible luck to get 3 named its with such a low drop rate 2 runs of EC in a row. Almost unbelievable luck you might say.


True, I did have to run a lot of rinse repeat runs to get stones, but that is a lesser mechanic of just farming EN/EH chests with guildies.
EE wasn't worth the effort in most cases as there was no real increase in drop rates, just more time/resources.


as to what I got on the Ecasual runs... Is what it is.

on the 2 Ecasual runs I got.
Lantern Ring (have good rings already so currently not useful.. maybe for an alt)
Necklace of Mystic Eidolons (which I already had)
Purple Dragon Shield - not useful

Magestar (have litany so all other trinkets are relatively subpar)
Manual of Stealthy Pilfering (something I actually wanted)
Purple Dragon Shield 2nd one.. (again not useful for me)


Had the Necklace of Mystic Eidolons and Libram of Silver Magic (Orb) from the EE runs.
Libram turned out to be useless for me because I have a monk splash and it uncenters monk.

Only upgraded the Manual and the Necklace, rest was not that useful to me.

Bridge_Dweller
08-26-2014, 12:37 PM
Our current tentative drop rates for Mythic loot are up to ten times as high on Elite, compared to Hard.

That's a start . . . you gotta make some loot sellable. This BTA stuff is bad as once I have the loot I'm looking for for my personal use I have no reason to run the quest again ever. Tradable/sellable loot will keep me interested in content much longer.

slarden
08-26-2014, 12:38 PM
Our current tentative drop rates for Mythic loot are up to ten times as high on Elite, compared to Hard.

This is fantastic. Thank you for sharing the #s because there is alot of mythology that the drop rates on elite, hard and normal are virtually the same.

If you make non-raid mythics unbound you may sell more AS. I prefer bound loot myself, but I think others like the unbound items so they have something to sell.

11001
08-26-2014, 12:42 PM
10 * 0 = 0 still, just saying.

slarden
08-26-2014, 12:49 PM
Where did he say that he fully upgraded all of the items he got? Could it also be possible that, if he did indeed upgrade all of them, that maybe guildies passed him the stones, or he bought them on the Auction House?

I think you are trying to pick a fight over nothing, I'm not sure why...Are you trying to imply that he "cheated"?

Personally though, I loved the seal/shard/scroll/item system and I wish one we hit level 30, that they would bring it back. I dislike the new mechanic of farming on ENorm, and wish there was a lot more incentive to run EE. Something like tiered loot, or FoT.

Nope, I was trying to make the point that you can't just run HH a few times and get all the gear and be done. you need 150 stones per item to upgrade it. If you farm EN you get much less stones vs. running EH or EE. So you either run more or you run on a higher difficulty.

I agree higher difficulties should be rewarded and they already are. I like the new mythic concept alot and the fact that it drops 10x more on EE is plenty of incentive to run EE.

Krell
08-26-2014, 12:50 PM
That's a start . . . you gotta make some loot sellable. This BTA stuff is bad as once I have the loot I'm looking for for my personal use I have no reason to run the quest again ever. Tradable/sellable loot will keep me interested in content much longer.

I'll still run content once I have the loot for leveling and fun, but I do agree that BTCoE is an extra incentive, and sometimes I will farm quests for loot to sell. A good game economy gives people another reason to play. Of course that breaks quickly if duping isn't fixed ;).

Oxarhamar
08-26-2014, 12:52 PM
Our current tentative drop rates for Mythic loot are up to ten times as high on Elite, compared to Hard.

Who cares.

The existing Mythic items are vender trash.

Dragon Masque from Fire on thunder peak is 100% drop rate on 20th list and better than most of the Mythic helms for most builds.

bbqzor
08-26-2014, 12:57 PM
Our current tentative drop rates for Mythic loot are up to ten times as high on Elite, compared to Hard.

This doesnt really tell us anything. The EH rate could be 0.1% and EE 1% and both would still be too low to have any real relevance. And thats only for loot "up to" that high... many items/quests might fall short of that the way you quantified your statement. If youre going to give us data to evaluate, just give us the data.

Takllin
08-26-2014, 12:58 PM
Nope, I was trying to make the point that you can't just run HH a few times and get all the gear and be done. you need 150 stones per item to upgrade it. If you farm EN you get much less stones vs. running EH or EE. So you either run more or you run on a higher difficulty.

I agree higher difficulties should be rewarded and they already are. I like the new mythic concept alot and the fact that it drops 10x more on EE is plenty of incentive to run EE.

Except that you can, because the Stones and items are both able to be acquired via trade or auction house. So you really don't even need to step foot into the content to get the loot and fully upgrade it if you have the means to acquire the items and the stones to upgrade them.

Qhualor
08-26-2014, 01:00 PM
This doesnt really tell us anything. The EH rate could be 0.1% and EE 1% and both would still be too low to have any real relevance. And thats only for loot "up to" that high... many items/quests might fall short of that the way you quantified your statement. If youre going to give us data to evaluate, just give us the data.

That wont happen. They have always been closed mouth about that kind of stuff.

slarden
08-26-2014, 01:03 PM
Except that you can, because the Stones and items are both able to be acquired via trade or auction house. So you really don't even need to step foot into the content to get the loot and fully upgrade it if you have the means to acquire the items and the stones to upgrade them.

my original question was to ask how he got the stones for upgrades.

I understand you can buy all the items and ingredients, but the point I was making is that you clearly get lower drop rates when you run the quest on lower difficulties. That is the point I was trying to make and he agreed to that point. It's kind of a fact so it's really not even something to debate.

11001
08-26-2014, 01:03 PM
That wont happen. They have always been closed mouth about that kind of stuff.

Like the same as what they have said about yellow dopants ?

Takllin
08-26-2014, 01:07 PM
my original question was to ask how he got the stones for upgrades.

I understand you can buy all the items and ingredients, but the point I was making is that you clearly get lower drop rates when you run the quest on lower difficulties. That is the point I was trying to make and he agreed to that point. It's kind of a fact so it's really not even something to debate.

Okay, but the point still stands. You do not have to step foot into HH to get the gear and upgrade it. You can't debate that...it is a fact. Someone has to step foot into it, to get the items in the first place, but anyone can buy them or trade something for them.

I agree that lower difficulties mean less stones and lower drop rates.

B0ltdrag0n
08-26-2014, 01:08 PM
Our current tentative drop rates for Mythic loot are up to ten times as high on Elite, compared to Hard.

.10% vs .01% drop rates! You heard it first! ;)

B0ltdrag0n
08-26-2014, 01:11 PM
Also I will chime in on the tiered loot. N/H/E is a no thank you.
FoT style tiering is a very big YES PLEASE!

The system that we almost had with Haunted Halls before it was scrapped and I still cannot talk about...also a huge yes please.

slarden
08-26-2014, 01:11 PM
Okay, but the point still stands. You do not have to step foot into HH to get the gear and upgrade it. You can't debate that...it is a fact. Someone has to step foot into it, to get the items in the first place, but anyone can buy them or trade something for them.

I agree that lower difficulties mean less stones and lower drop rates.

Agreed and there was never any debate about whether those items could be purchased. As you said it's a fact.

Dilbon
08-26-2014, 01:27 PM
Tradable/sellable loot will keep me interested in content much longer.

And those who buy it will lose interest in the content when they get to buy what they want. Bad idea.

Oxarhamar
08-26-2014, 01:39 PM
And those who buy it will lose interest in the content when they get to buy what they want. Bad idea.

And those who have no interest to begin with because, they don't want/can't use or sell the items is better?

Wizza
08-26-2014, 01:55 PM
Our current tentative drop rates for Mythic loot are up to ten times as high on Elite, compared to Hard.

Questions:

1) Are you planning to show us the rest of the Mythic Helms in an official post? We have seen 2 so far and the Assassination Helm is really bad.
2) What's, not precisely, the drop chance on EN? If it's 0.01, 10x times higher is meaningless. Are we talking about Deathwyrm-like drop rates? Those are next to 0 on every difficulty, we all know it.
3) Tomes. What about tomes? Will they drop FOR REAL? Will they be EE Exclusives?

Takllin
08-26-2014, 01:59 PM
Questions:

1) Are you planning to show us the rest of the Mythic Helms in an official post? We have seen 2 so far and the Assassination Helm is really bad.
2) What's, not precisely, the drop chance on EN? If it's 0.01, 10x times higher is meaningless. Are we talking about Deathwyrm-like drop rates? Those are next to 0 on every difficulty, we all know it.
3) Tomes. What about tomes? Will they drop FOR REAL? Will they be EE Exclusives?

Well, Apep said last night IIRC that drop rates for items used to be 2/3/4 percent, but Im highly skeptical that the drop rates remain the same, as I believe this was old information. Also think that was just the chance for one item to drop, so within those are much smaller chances per each item...

UurlockYgmeov
08-26-2014, 02:18 PM
Our current tentative drop rates for Mythic loot are up to ten times as high on Elite, compared to Hard.

That!

Tiered loot is for farming to sell...

e3BC hit the nail on the head.

Now with Mythic loot.... <--- that is the way to go.

Dilbon
08-26-2014, 02:22 PM
And those who have no interest to begin with because, they don't want/can't use or sell the items is better?

Here we are again with the problem plaguing MMOs in general these days: people don't want to play the game, they just want rewards. If a quest doesn't give you anything, why do it. If you can buy an item from a quest without doing the quest itself, why do it. If a harder difficulty doesn't give a reward, why do it.

B0ltdrag0n
08-26-2014, 02:28 PM
Here we are again with the problem plaguing MMOs in general these days: people don't want to play the game, they just want rewards. If a quest doesn't give you anything, why do it. If you can buy an item from a quest without doing the quest itself, why do it. If a harder difficulty doesn't give a reward, why do it.

Because the quest its self is fun maybe?

R1ncewind
08-26-2014, 02:28 PM
Our current tentative drop rates for Mythic loot are up to ten times as high on Elite, compared to Hard.

The problem being that there are just too little Mythic loot, to be a useful mechanic... i hope that the drop rates for normal items have the same differences in drop rates at least, that would help but its not a solution.

Steelstar
08-26-2014, 02:30 PM
Questions:

1) Are you planning to show us the rest of the Mythic Helms in an official post? We have seen 2 so far and the Assassination Helm is really bad.
2) What's, not precisely, the drop chance on EN? If it's 0.01, 10x times higher is meaningless. Are we talking about Deathwyrm-like drop rates? Those are next to 0 on every difficulty, we all know it.
3) Tomes. What about tomes? Will they drop FOR REAL? Will they be EE Exclusives?

All four U23 Mythic helms are in the central cabinet of the Test Dojo on Lamannia. If you have feedback about particular ones, please post it in the Official Loot Feedback Thread, located here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447270-U23-Items-Feedback-thread

The drop rate for Mythic items on EN is very low. On EE, it's still low, but as Varg said, it's up to 10x the Epic Hard value. These are not meant to be easy to obtain, even on Epic Elite. However, your best chances of getting one will be on Epic Elite by a long shot.

Tomes for the U23 raid will follow a similar pattern to the U21 raids - Rare, with the +6 Tomes exclusive to Epic Elite. If you wish to find one, you should run the raid on Epic Elite.

ReaperAlexEU
08-26-2014, 02:43 PM
Our current tentative drop rates for Mythic loot are up to ten times as high on Elite, compared to Hard.

now THAT is a good base number :)

well, unless EE takes 10 times longer to complete than EH, then we're back at square 1, but i don't think that will be the case so great design :)

Seikojin
08-26-2014, 02:45 PM
I think the the FOT system was successful as well. Running on EE provided incentive in that you'd bypass a tremendous amount of grind for upgrade mats by just getting the upgraded version right away.

Either of these systems are more desirable than what we're currently getting.

I agree that a tiered loot system should be the way to go.

However, isn't that what Mythic is going to provide? Or not enough to be similar and relevant to match tiered? A ton of people cry against tiered, however I think tiered is the proper thing to do. Especially looking at it in the normal = first life, hard = second life, and elite = third+ lives.

Wizza
08-26-2014, 02:50 PM
All four U23 Mythic helms are in the central cabinet of the Test Dojo on Lamannia. If you have feedback about particular ones, please post it in the Official Loot Feedback Thread, located here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447270-U23-Items-Feedback-thread

The drop rate for Mythic items on EN is very low. On EE, it's still low, but as Varg said, it's up to 10x the Epic Hard value. These are not meant to be easy to obtain, even on Epic Elite. However, your best chances of getting one will be on Epic Elite by a long shot.

Tomes for the U23 raid will follow a similar pattern to the U21 raids - Rare, with the +6 Tomes exclusive to Epic Elite. If you wish to find one, you should run the raid on Epic Elite.

I see only 2 Mythic helms posted, Mythic Minos Helm and Mythic Muffled Veneer (which is bad). Since Lamannia is closed at the moment, can you post the other 2 Mythic Helms? I'm really curious. Pleaaaase :)

And on tomes: Are you aware that not a single +6 tome has dropped in Epic Elite Deathwyrm and Epic Elite Thunder Peak so far? This is NOT an incentive to run the raids on EE if that is your aim. Having a ridicolous drop rate is just that, ridicolous.

I'd like you to really take a look at the drop rates. If that "very low" is as much as low as +6 tomes (or even gear of Deathwyrm and Thunder peak) on live on EE, then don't bother at all. It's pointless. Their drop rates at the moment is zero, no matter what you say. We have seen 1 Raid gear every 20 runs probably.

Please, don't tell me to run Epic Elite raid. We have a WHOLE community running those and NO TOMES have dropped so far.

EDIT: Why don't you put the +5 tomes back in the 20th reward list with a small chance to be +6, like old raids? And also, what's the 20th reward list of this new raid? Will it have a Mythic item? Will it have EVERY item?

Takllin
08-26-2014, 02:51 PM
I agree that a tiered loot system should be the way to go.

However, isn't that what Mythic is going to provide? Or not enough to be similar and relevant to match tiered? A ton of people cry against tiered, however I think tiered is the proper thing to do. Especially looking at it in the normal = first life, hard = second life, and elite = third+ lives.

Well, if every item had a Mythic version, that ONLY dropped on EE, then yes, I think it would be a great system.

But, it can drop on EN, and it is only on the 4 helms.

If they make everything have a Mythic version, and restrict it to EE, then that is a system that I can get behind.

Zoda
08-26-2014, 02:54 PM
All four U23 Mythic helms are in the central cabinet of the Test Dojo on Lamannia. If you have feedback about particular ones, please post it in the Official Loot Feedback Thread, located here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447270-U23-Items-Feedback-thread

The drop rate for Mythic items on EN is very low. On EE, it's still low, but as Varg said, it's up to 10x the Epic Hard value. These are not meant to be easy to obtain, even on Epic Elite. However, your best chances of getting one will be on Epic Elite by a long shot.

Tomes for the U23 raid will follow a similar pattern to the U21 raids - Rare, with the +6 Tomes exclusive to Epic Elite. If you wish to find one, you should run the raid on Epic Elite.

Those helms are not good. As the only mythic items I'd expect them to be at least best in slot for some builds but they are not. The set bonus on them is pointless, noone will drop shadowscale/black scale for that, dps gets outclassed by black dragon helm or dragon masque in non undead content and casters will use Defic Diadem (or Epic Helm of the Red Dragon on some specific builds). Maybe some shiradi will equip Minos but that's about it (I still wouldn't...).

I like the drop rate. Not as much as I'd like epic crafting/oldschool turn in system/tiered loot, but at least it's better than nothing. Certainly better than the 3BC nonsense. Now only if there was a mythic item worth getting... Maybe give us mythic versions of tome page/shield fragment turn ins?

I like that +6 tomes are only accessible on e/e, but if the drop rate is the same as in deathwyrm/fire peaks you might as well make them +10 tomes. There hasn't been a single recorded drop of a +6 tome in the u21 raids.

Lifespawn
08-26-2014, 03:03 PM
This is fantastic. Thank you for sharing the #s because there is alot of mythology that the drop rates on elite, hard and normal are virtually the same.

If you make non-raid mythics unbound you may sell more AS. I prefer bound loot myself, but I think others like the unbound items so they have something to sell.


This would depend heavily on what the drop rate is .00000001 going to .0000001 is not a noticeable change .01 to .1 is tho

Takllin
08-26-2014, 03:17 PM
I see only 2 Mythic helms posted, Mythic Minos Helm and Mythic Muffled Veneer (which is bad). Since Lamannia is closed at the moment, can you post the other 2 Mythic Helms? I'm really curious. Pleaaaase :)

And on tomes: Are you aware that not a single +6 tome has dropped in Epic Elite Deathwyrm and Epic Elite Thunder Peak so far? This is NOT an incentive to run the raids on EE if that is your aim. Having a ridicolous drop rate is just that, ridicolous.

I'd like you to really take a look at the drop rates. If that "very low" is as much as low as +6 tomes (or even gear of Deathwyrm and Thunder peak) on live on EE, then don't bother at all. It's pointless. Their drop rates at the moment is zero, no matter what you say. We have seen 1 Raid gear every 20 runs probably.

Please, don't tell me to run Epic Elite raid. We have a WHOLE community running those and NO TOMES have dropped so far.

EDIT: Why don't you put the +5 tomes back in the 20th reward list with a small chance to be +6, like old raids? And also, what's the 20th reward list of this new raid? Will it have a Mythic item? Will it have EVERY item?

Honestly, I agree with all these sentiments.

Purkilius
08-26-2014, 03:22 PM
Those helms are not good. As the only mythic items I'd expect them to be at least best in slot for some builds but they are not. The set bonus on them is pointless, noone will drop shadowscale/black scale for that, dps gets outclassed by black dragon helm or dragon masque in non undead content and casters will use Defic Diadem (or Epic Helm of the Red Dragon on some specific builds). Maybe some shiradi will equip Minos but that's about it (I still wouldn't...).

I like the drop rate. Not as much as I'd like epic crafting/oldschool turn in system/tiered loot, but at least it's better than nothing. Certainly better than the 3BC nonsense. Now only if there was a mythic item worth getting... Maybe give us mythic versions of tome page/shield fragment turn ins?

I like that +6 tomes are only accessible on e/e, but if the drop rate is the same as in deathwyrm/fire peaks you might as well make them +10 tomes. There hasn't been a single recorded drop of a +6 tome in the u21 raids.

Well at least unbound +5 tomes drop on eh/en (do not remember) wyrm, but with a confirmed a +6 tome drop on ee would be great incentive but after a few months now not a single 1 has dropped at least so we know of and thats just bad design and makes us untrusting in that it will drop in the new raid!

Seikojin
08-26-2014, 03:27 PM
This would depend heavily on what the drop rate is .00000001 going to .0000001 is not a noticeable change .01 to .1 is tho

A while back tomes were bumped from 1 in 400 chance to 1 in 300 chance. So if this was true then, and is true now, that means the elite runs would be 1 in 30 or 40 chance.

However, exposing the drop rates has been taboo in games forever, so you will never get a real, long lasting number.

bbqzor
08-26-2014, 03:34 PM
The drop rate for Mythic items on EN is very low. On EE, it's still low, but as Varg said, it's up to 10x the Epic Hard value. These are not meant to be easy to obtain, even on Epic Elite. However, your best chances of getting one will be on Epic Elite by a long shot.

Look, we have heard before where a dev thinks a 2% drop rate is "good". Im not going to take the time to go dig this stuff up, but its there (Dun'Robar rings was one discussion if anyone else cares to, where ranges from 2-6% were discussed; one of several). Here we have a case where "up to 10x" is being used. If you're using whole percentage numbers, that means it might be like 1% EN, 2% EH, 20% EE.

Obviously, 20% isnt likely given the statement "not easy to obtain". Which means its probably not using whole percentage numbers. Which means, by definition, its fractions of a percent.. Meaning "up to x10" is not only misleading (either they're not all x10 as likely, making some of them rarer which is seemingly foolish, or they're all x10 and you can just come out and say it), but it results in extrapolating the base value as <1%. Meaning that even across 100 runs you may not see one a majority of the time (note that statistically, even with a 1% drop rate, youll only see a helm from 100 runs about 2/3rds of the time due to variance... so <1% is really, really pointless).

So ultimately, we have to conclude these arent really practically farm-able. Its not something you can sit down and say "hey, Im going to go work on getting a Mythic helm". Players who have a single character they focus on, may be able to farm one on EE (if the EH value is 0.5% and the EE value is 5%, someone doing 40 EE runs on one guy is attainable), but no one is going to be able to sit down and work on these for their whole account of characters.

Im not saying they have to be "super easy to get" or anything. Im just pointing out what the numbers mean. If you want one of these, prepare to do 40+ EE runs looking for it. Trying to get one on EN or EH is basically just hoping on the lottery. And those are "hopeful" numbers. I could easily see it being worse.


Tomes for the U23 raid will follow a similar pattern to the U21 raids - Rare, with the +6 Tomes exclusive to Epic Elite. If you wish to find one, you should run the raid on Epic Elite.

Theres rare, then theres non-existent. In about 80 raid runs Ive seen one tome. So 80 x 12 = 960 pulls = ~0.1% chance. Again, comparing to above, its probably something like 0.1% chance on normal, 0.5% chance on hard, 1-5% chance on EE. Hence the "up to x10" figures.

--------

You guys sometimes forget, or maybe never learned given that almost all the devs are newer than the game, that originally it had drop rates of like 12-16% from raids. Doing 20 runs, youd see a couple items drop on the way to 20, then get the item you wanted on 20 if not earlier. Then over time the rates dropped to like 5%, so "doing 20 runs for it" became more of a certainty, but you had maybe a 50/50 shot of finishing early.

Then with U21, it became "do 20 runs for an item, ever, because they almost never drop, then do another 20 runs for another item, then do another 20 runs for 10 phlogs". The grind has gotten so insanely bad people spam timers just to get the runs in before the content becomes outdated. Thats not an intelligent model. Making people choose between spending real money or waiting 3+ months of constant farming is a far cry from the scope of original intent.

Theres a way to have drop rates be rare, without being lottery rare. You wont give us the exact numbers, so we have to guess, but PLEASE make sure this stuff is PRACTICAL to obtain. Mythic items being harder, fine, but it shouldnt take 20+ runs of a quest to see the regular items. When we cannot buy/trade items, we are FORCED to farm. That means farming has to be reliable and worthwhile to do. 3BC definitely has some "too rare" things in it.... dont want to see the same mistake again. And when I see rates <1%, I get that spidey sense tingle....

Lifespawn
08-26-2014, 03:37 PM
A while back tomes were bumped from 1 in 400 chance to 1 in 300 chance. So if this was true then, and is true now, that means the elite runs would be 1 in 30 or 40 chance.

However, exposing the drop rates has been taboo in games forever, so you will never get a real, long lasting number.

the only reason for not exposing droprates is so that we can't complain about how abysmal they are and they can still say they drop.

The reason they should post them has been made clear numerous times with the drowned priest torch being the most recent we were told it was dropping keep looking but then eventually after people wasted real money using shards for rolls they looked into it and found it wasn't dropping.

If +6 tomes are an indication of the drop rates aswell it might as well be zero if they are actually dropping with how many times we have run it on EE as a community ONE should have dropped by now.

Drop rates could be argued about and would be even if they posted numbers but that would only be the case if they made them absurdly low which is the case for some things ESOS shard I'm looking at you 500+ runs on a range of difficulties and I have never seen one drop for anyone in a party.

slarden
08-26-2014, 03:38 PM
This would depend heavily on what the drop rate is .00000001 going to .0000001 is not a noticeable change .01 to .1 is tho

Regardless of the drop rate you have a 10x better chance to get it on EE vs. EH. Grinding is always optional in this game.

I think these items are meant to be rare and it's likely related to the feedback that people farmed all the loot from 3bc and now have no reason to run the quests.

Lifespawn
08-26-2014, 03:44 PM
Regardless of the drop rate you have a 10x better chance to get it on EE vs. EH. Grinding is always optional in this game.

I think these items are meant to be rare and it's likely related to the feedback that people farmed all the loot from 3bc and now have no reason to run the quests.


I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you here I will grind for a 1% change to get 1 of 4 types of helms I will not grind for a 10th of a percent chance.

JOTMON
08-26-2014, 03:51 PM
I see only 2 Mythic helms posted, Mythic Minos Helm and Mythic Muffled Veneer (which is bad). Since Lamannia is closed at the moment, can you post the other 2 Mythic Helms? I'm really curious. Pleaaaase :)

And on tomes: Are you aware that not a single +6 tome has dropped in Epic Elite Deathwyrm and Epic Elite Thunder Peak so far? This is NOT an incentive to run the raids on EE if that is your aim. Having a ridicolous drop rate is just that, ridicolous.

I'd like you to really take a look at the drop rates. If that "very low" is as much as low as +6 tomes (or even gear of Deathwyrm and Thunder peak) on live on EE, then don't bother at all. It's pointless. Their drop rates at the moment is zero, no matter what you say. We have seen 1 Raid gear every 20 runs probably.

Please, don't tell me to run Epic Elite raid. We have a WHOLE community running those and NO TOMES have dropped so far.

EDIT: Why don't you put the +5 tomes back in the 20th reward list with a small chance to be +6, like old raids? And also, what's the 20th reward list of this new raid? Will it have a Mythic item? Will it have EVERY item?

/Agreed.

I have not seen a +6 tome drop in EE Deathwyrm or Peaks.

The only place I saw +6 tomes drop was into my inventory when I blew a wad of cash purchasing them from the DDO store.
and that is pretty much what I expected when even after 60+ Runs of these raids (14 of those EE) and I have not seen any drop or anyone link one in guild or channels.

Perhaps someday they will admit they never intended to be dropped or were bugged.

Bridge_Dweller
08-26-2014, 04:04 PM
I'll still run content once I have the loot for leveling and fun, but I do agree that BTCoE is an extra incentive, and sometimes I will farm quests for loot to sell. A good game economy gives people another reason to play. Of course that breaks quickly if duping isn't fixed ;).

Fun offers no replay value :)

slarden
08-26-2014, 04:07 PM
I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you here I will grind for a 1% change to get 1 of 4 types of helms I will not grind for a 10th of a percent chance.

It's difficult to discuss hypothetical drop rates - all we know at this point is the ratio between EH and EE.

The only thing we know for certain is that any system the devs come up with will result in complaints by the community.

Grinding is never required in this game. It's always self-inflicted.

Qhualor
08-26-2014, 04:24 PM
It's difficult to discuss hypothetical drop rates - all we know at this point is the ratio between EH and EE.

The only thing we know for certain is that any system the devs come up with will result in complaints by the community.

Grinding is never required in this game. It's always self-inflicted.

its not self inflicted if you are choosing to grind. people wont care so much about grind as long as they see steady progress. if +6 tomes dropped about as often as +4 tomes did in TOD years ago, there wouldn't be many complaints about the droprates in Deathwyrm.

I agree that powerful items, especially at cap, should have low drop rates to keep players busy doing something, but not to the point that +6 tomes are considered nonexistent by everyone.

slarden
08-26-2014, 04:40 PM
its not self inflicted if you are choosing to grind. people wont care so much about grind as long as they see steady progress. if +6 tomes dropped about as often as +4 tomes did in TOD years ago, there wouldn't be many complaints about the droprates in Deathwyrm.

I agree that powerful items, especially at cap, should have low drop rates to keep players busy doing something, but not to the point that +6 tomes are considered nonexistent by everyone.

Grinding is always self-inflicted since you are the only person that can make the decision to grind. It's certainly not required to play the game or beat EE content.

I was referring strictly about mythic drop rates and the ratio between EH and EE. Tomes are a different issue completely.

Qhualor
08-26-2014, 04:58 PM
Grinding is always self-inflicted since you are the only person that can make the decision to grind. It's certainly not required to play the game or beat EE content.

I was referring strictly about mythic drop rates and the ratio between EH and EE. Tomes are a different issue completely.

I was using tomes as a good example of grind.

self inflicted would refer to doing something you don't want to do. if you are grinding than you want to do it.

Lifespawn
08-26-2014, 05:06 PM
Grinding is always self-inflicted since you are the only person that can make the decision to grind. It's certainly not required to play the game or beat EE content.

I was referring strictly about mythic drop rates and the ratio between EH and EE. Tomes are a different issue completely.

have to have something to do at cap a grind with a tangible return will make the quests last longer than 2-3 months and no1 posts a drop so people give up.

1 drop in 50 runs will make me do it on alts instead of just trying for my main therefore keeping me busy much longer Especially if they aren't bound and can be resold 1 drop in 300-400 will not

Oxarhamar
08-26-2014, 05:20 PM
Here we are again with the problem plaguing MMOs in general these days: people don't want to play the game, they just want rewards. If a quest doesn't give you anything, why do it. If you can buy an item from a quest without doing the quest itself, why do it. If a harder difficulty doesn't give a reward, why do it.

Yes we want something from the quests other than the quests itself.

We want more than the ever devalued platinum for named items.

This is not a new problem players love to trade others hate it.





Hey I post my auctions on the AH ASAH for exponentially lower than others because, I don't want the items coming back in the mail. I want them used by a player that can use them.

Then I think of all the wonderful items in the LOD chain left in the chest useless BTA.

Oxarhamar
08-26-2014, 05:52 PM
Mythic items should have been the weapons from Orchard anyways.

As an alternative to Thunderforged but, with the rareity of mythics(unknown) Thunderforged would still be the measureable grind weapon.

That might have been interesting.

Zoda
08-26-2014, 05:57 PM
Perhaps someday they will admit they never intended to be dropped or were bugged.

Wouldn't be the first case that loot tables are bugged. Although it's hard to deny that the game is completely P2W at the point where +6 tomes are on the store before in the chests, intentional or not.

Gremmlynn
08-26-2014, 06:02 PM
Then you should be glad that the months of development time spent on manufacturing new content is thrown to the wayside in a week or two because you can easily get all the reward out of the content within that timeframe.

You should also be glad that this game has no economy.

You should also be glad that you have zero incentive to run harder content.

Be content with mediocrity, with some vanilla character running normal mode and enjoying the "story". MMO's tend to have a central pathway in character advancement, building, and progression, to not want to improve yourself in an MMO is asinine to me.


I don't understand how players playing an MMO are content with NOT wanting more for their characters. How can people be content with just playing normal, and never pushing the envelope to try hard, or elite? How can finally doing hard and elite not yield reward for ones efforts? Why does the existence of EE exclusive gear automatically make people think that this "shuts" people out from getting the best gear? It doesn't shut you out. You can go in any time and do it - it is supposed to be difficult, if you win then you get something for it.Personally, I see it as a lot like going fishing. Another hobby I like, but am not really obsessed to the point of caring how "good" I am at it. While I'm sure those who are and research and practice just to get better catch more big ones than me, I catch some while keeping the sport a fun pastime that doesn't intrude on my life while not doing it.

Wizza
08-26-2014, 06:04 PM
Personally, I see it as a lot like going fishing. Another hobby I like, but am not really obsessed to the point of caring how "good" I am at it. While I'm sure those who are and research and practice just to get better catch more big ones than me, I catch some while keeping the sport a fun pastime that doesn't intrude on my life while not doing it.

The other ones catching the bigger ones is not in any way affecting you right? Right.

Same goes for DDO. If you are happy with doing EN and getting EN loot, leave the EE loot to us and keep having fun your way.

Sebastrd
08-26-2014, 07:00 PM
I run EE regardless of the loot. I don't need "special snowflake" loot as an incentive.

poltt48
08-26-2014, 07:01 PM
All four U23 Mythic helms are in the central cabinet of the Test Dojo on Lamannia. If you have feedback about particular ones, please post it in the Official Loot Feedback Thread, located here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447270-U23-Items-Feedback-thread

The drop rate for Mythic items on EN is very low. On EE, it's still low, but as Varg said, it's up to 10x the Epic Hard value. These are not meant to be easy to obtain, even on Epic Elite. However, your best chances of getting one will be on Epic Elite by a long shot.

Tomes for the U23 raid will follow a similar pattern to the U21 raids - Rare, with the +6 Tomes exclusive to Epic Elite. If you wish to find one, you should run the raid on Epic Elite.

First I have run EE on U21 raids since came out. In about 200 of both raids have only seen 1 +6 tome so not worth the effert. Second the helms even mythical versions are some biggest garbage in game can get better on level 20 and 24. Especially the cleric/pally one with about 50 of use have told you guys already have buffs that do not stack and buffs on it are terrible at epic level. Personally I only run epic elite cause like challenge but really not worth the time since no reward for running EE especially with how bad the mystic helms are for time going to take you to run it rather have my insight 3 helm with nothing else on it then use **** they putting out now.

Vanhooger
08-26-2014, 07:26 PM
I love the old system scroll/seal/shard but it will bever come back again so...

Mythic item should be exclusive to EE, and just a bit better then epic version.

Casual player shouldn't complain or even bother about mythic version because...they're casual.

Cetus
08-26-2014, 07:32 PM
All four U23 Mythic helms are in the central cabinet of the Test Dojo on Lamannia. If you have feedback about particular ones, please post it in the Official Loot Feedback Thread, located here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447270-U23-Items-Feedback-thread

The drop rate for Mythic items on EN is very low. On EE, it's still low, but as Varg said, it's up to 10x the Epic Hard value. These are not meant to be easy to obtain, even on Epic Elite. However, your best chances of getting one will be on Epic Elite by a long shot.

Tomes for the U23 raid will follow a similar pattern to the U21 raids - Rare, with the +6 Tomes exclusive to Epic Elite. If you wish to find one, you should run the raid on Epic Elite.

Mythic items is your answer?

Most of that loot is amazing, and I commend you guys for making them that way. However, the mythic items are not the ones I'm referring to. Those helms plainly suck.

Whatever happened to the rest of orchard loot? What happened to staff of the petitioner, to unwavering ardency, you know...those deathnips?

Whatever happened to making the litany of the dead QUEST epic?

Think about it...you're giving us 4 quests and a raid with all of the loot easily acquirable on normal.


A 10 times higher drop rate on EE? What's the point of giving higher drop rates? This is a distinction without a difference, I can steam roll normal 10x faster and get loot the same way. EE needs to offer unique rewards, much analogous to the draconic soul gem in EE FOT.

Otherwise, I'm sorry for the time you spent making this update. As much as I'd love to enjoy it, it seems that expecting a genuine reward for challenging myself is too much nowadays. Just...catering to casual players who feel entitled to the best toys without really putting in any work for it. That's like giving out MD's, DO's, and PhD's for passing some under graduate intro course.

Gremmlynn
08-26-2014, 07:40 PM
The other ones catching the bigger ones is not in any way affecting you right? Right.

Same goes for DDO. If you are happy with doing EN and getting EN loot, leave the EE loot to us and keep having fun your way.The others are just catching more big one's. That's the point, I'm not being excluded from doing so, just less likely.

But no, what the others are able to catch has no bearing, just what I am.

Minrothad
08-26-2014, 07:45 PM
/signed on Mythic as Epic Elite only loot.

Cetus
08-26-2014, 07:46 PM
The others are just catching more big one's. That's the point, I'm not being excluded from doing so, just less likely.

But no, what the others are able to catch has no bearing, just what I am.

Exactly - so if the water has bigger fish that only the more experienced fisherman can catch, this doesn't really affect you in any way - as long as you have fish of your own to catch.

Oxarhamar
08-26-2014, 08:01 PM
Exactly - so if the water has bigger fish that only the more experienced fisherman can catch, this doesn't really affect you in any way - as long as you have fish of your own to catch.

It's a flawed analogy. As are most.

If the fisherman catching fish of any size are being irresponsible with catch and release practices overfishing can have a heavy impact on who catches fish in the future.

Loot is completely different since it can't be over looted ( though the Devs have been known to adjust drop rates if they are deemed to high)

PsychoBlonde
08-26-2014, 08:18 PM
I run EE regardless of the loot. I don't need "special snowflake" loot as an incentive.

Yep. I busted my butt getting my characters to the point where they can do EE all the time. I don't care about getting superior loot (I usually get **** for drops anyway). I want to run fun quests and do well at them. I wind up having to buy most of my gear, anyway.

IronClan
08-26-2014, 08:24 PM
Mythic items should have been the weapons from Orchard anyways.

As an alternative to Thunderforged but, with the rareity of mythics(unknown) Thunderforged would still be the measureable grind weapon.

That might have been interesting.
^
This, is a damn good idea... mythic Deathnips, Enduring conviction, Phosphor, coronation... most of these weapon types make terrible Thunder forged weapons, due to their bad natural crit ranges.

Thar
08-26-2014, 08:29 PM
Honestly, imo the best was how FoT was handled. You could run EE for chance at special named augment, get loot fully upgraded or you could run it at a lower difficulty and spend coms to upgrade your loot. Really gave everyone something to strive for.

i agree.

MonadRebelion
08-26-2014, 08:40 PM
My personal preference is for the scroll/shard/seal system for endgame loot. Under that system it was pretty hard for everyone to complete items, and the items weren't nearly as ridiculously powerful as they are now. I think that was the best epic item system the game ever had. Beyond that a tiered system of items you can sell on the shard exchange seems good as long as the power difference between tiers is negligible.

Cetus
08-26-2014, 08:49 PM
I think this thread is consistently demonstrating that any previous system is better than the current mechanic. There's quite a bit of disagreement as far as tiered loot goes specifically, but overall - scroll/seal/shard and FOT system ranks higher as a preference than just giving away loot essentially for free, like it is now.

Devs, take some extra time - and release this the right way. Make the current versions of some of the more powerful items - e.g. Litany, Boots, Goggles, Gloves, etc. become the upper tier fully upgraded equivalents, and just tone down their stats to make up the lower tier versions of it.

It would take you guys minimal effort to do this. It would also allow you to make some of the weaker items e.g. helms, cloak of ice, etc. as the lower tier versions, and tweak them up a bit.

While you're at it - make litany of the dead an epic quest - and release this pack like a dignified epification of orchard that we all expected it to be.

slarden
08-26-2014, 08:55 PM
Mythic items is your answer?

Most of that loot is amazing, and I commend you guys for making them that way. However, the mythic items are not the ones I'm referring to. Those helms plainly suck.

Whatever happened to the rest of orchard loot? What happened to staff of the petitioner, to unwavering ardency, you know...those deathnips?

Whatever happened to making the litany of the dead QUEST epic?

Think about it...you're giving us 4 quests and a raid with all of the loot easily acquirable on normal.


A 10 times higher drop rate on EE? What's the point of giving higher drop rates? This is a distinction without a difference, I can steam roll normal 10x faster and get loot the same way. EE needs to offer unique rewards, much analogous to the draconic soul gem in EE FOT.

Otherwise, I'm sorry for the time you spent making this update. As much as I'd love to enjoy it, it seems that expecting a genuine reward for challenging myself is too much nowadays. Just...catering to casual players who feel entitled to the best toys without really putting in any work for it. That's like giving out MD's, DO's, and PhD's for passing some under graduate intro course.

You aren't satisfied with getting 10x the reward? You can run normal 10x faster so instead of doing WGU in 30 minutes you can do it in 3 minutes?

For as much as people about casual players having a sense of entitlement I think that term fits much better with the people demanding exclusive loot.

You are comparing an MMO to a PhD? Really? Really?

slarden
08-26-2014, 09:19 PM
Whatever happened to making the litany of the dead QUEST epic?

Think about it...you're giving us 4 quests and a raid with all of the loot easily acquirable on normal.


You can farm the 4 mythic items on EN and tell us how that goes.

Based on my runs through the new quests the Litany pre-raid doesn't really fit into the epic storyline.

I do think having a Tor-like capstone quest is a good idea for loot farming, but litany was primarily just a big xp farm on heroic and I doubt it would be any different on epic unless the xp wasn't proportional.

Anyhow I hope the devs put more effort into level 30 and the plan for end game when the cap is set at 30 for quite some time.

Timap
08-26-2014, 11:09 PM
Same goes for DDO. If you are happy with doing EN and getting EN loot, leave the EE loot to us and keep having fun your way.

EE and EH/EN players cannot help but interact, through the game economy, through PUGs, and through the underlying balance of difficulty. How many times have you heard the phrase "get more hp", or some other derogatory comment, uttered during an EE PUG? When players far apart in the power spectrum meet, bad social interactions tend to happen. DDO has no mechanism for segregating players of different power.

Lots of players are stuck in the gulf between EH and EE. EH is too easy for them, yet EE is too difficult, so they tend to PUG EE. And you want more EE exclusive loot, so that you can further widen the power spectrum? Haven't you already posted videos of your toon soloing EE WGU? Haven't you complained that EE epic necro is way too easy with your existing toon? What are you hoping to accomplish with better loot? Solo WGU with one hand tied behind your back?

And you have the temerity to disparage the Devs for making content with no staying power. Of course they have no staying power to you. You are uninterested in things like storyline, artwork, D&D nostalgia, novel game mechanics. No. All you're interested in is loot. If a quest does not have significantly better loot, it's rubbish to you. With this set of incentives, why should Devs even bother with making new content, new artwork etc. Just periodically take old content, increase the stats on loot, and the power of mobs, and you are happy.

In fact, you don't even deserve human Devs. They should move you and your ilk to a special super duper elite server. Once the game engine detects that the majority of the player base have acquired the latest loot, it'll take a random adventure pack, multiply the mob hp by 3, multiply loot power by 2, and call that new content. A script will constantly dangle digital carrots in front of you, and you'll happily grind out ever more powerful loot to battle ever more powerful mobs.

Cetus
08-26-2014, 11:29 PM
EE and EH/EN players cannot help but interact, through the game economy, through PUGs, and through the underlying balance of difficulty. How many times have you heard the phrase "get more hp", or some other derogatory comment, uttered during an EE PUG? When players far apart in the power spectrum meet, bad social interactions tend to happen. DDO has no mechanism for segregating players of different power.

Lots of players are stuck in the gulf between EH and EE. EH is too easy for them, yet EE is too difficult, so they tend to PUG EE. And you want more EE exclusive loot, so that you can further widen the power spectrum? Haven't you already posted videos of your toon soloing EE WGU? Haven't you complained that EE epic necro is way too easy with your existing toon? What are you hoping to accomplish with better loot? Solo WGU with one hand tied behind your back?

And you have the temerity to disparage the Devs for making content with no staying power. Of course they have no staying power to you. You are uninterested in things like storyline, artwork, D&D nostalgia, novel game mechanics. No. All you're interested in is loot. If a quest does not have significantly better loot, it's rubbish to you. With this set of incentives, why should Devs even bother with making new content, new artwork etc. Just periodically take old content, increase the stats on loot, and the power of mobs, and you are happy.

In fact, you don't even deserve human Devs. They should move you and your ilk to a special super duper elite server. Once the game engine detects that the majority of the player base have acquired the latest loot, it'll take a random adventure pack, multiply the mob hp by 3, multiply loot power by 2, and call that new content. A script will constantly dangle digital carrots in front of you, and you'll happily grind out ever more powerful loot to battle ever more powerful mobs.

Or you can have the same robot, about every 2 weeks, change key verbs and nouns in the story text to make different stories so after you re-read the same story and re-play the same events you get slightly different variations, about which you can be nostalgic about ad infinitum.

See, I can say the same thing about your story and nostalgia.

The underlying fact is this: EH and EN players always have EE to look forward to. If you can't do it now - you can always do it later when the level cap raises.

Casual folk are always moving toward the current endgame sometime in the future, if you disagree - then why ever bother leveling or equipping any kind of gear at all - obviously to improve, well you keep improving and you keep taking on content that matches your level. As a result, any update that caters to endgame players will, by the very structure of character progression, cater to the casual folk at some point in the future.

Thus: Endgame content with endgame loot is the best way to cater to the entire population. Casual content with subpar loot will only cater to the casual folk in the immediate future, leaving endgamers wholly unsatisfied.

Any reasonable person would opt for the former rather than the latter, I think.

Cetus
08-26-2014, 11:34 PM
You aren't satisfied with getting 10x the reward? You can run normal 10x faster so instead of doing WGU in 30 minutes you can do it in 3 minutes?

You wrote 10x the reward, this is false. It's 10x the chance to get a single item. No I'm not satisfied with this.

Absolute satisfaction: When I can get something out of EE that I cannot get anywhere else.

Relative Satisfaction: An upgrade system which I can bypass by directly acquiring the item from EE.


For as much as people about casual players having a sense of entitlement I think that term fits much better with the people demanding exclusive loot.

This sounds like throwing in the towel in even trying to tackle EE content. Why play an MMO when you couldn't care less about accomplishing a meaningful victory. What story ever piqued your interest where the adversary or major conflict was easily resolved. The only exclusivity I promote here is loot access to EE content. ALL players have access to EE content.


You are comparing an MMO to a PhD? Really? Really?

No, I wasn't comparing an MMO to a PhD.

Impaqt
08-26-2014, 11:37 PM
Thus: Endgame content with endgame loot is the best way to cater to the entire population. Casual content with subpar loot will only cater to the casual folk in the immediate future, leaving endgamers wholly unsatisfied.

Any reasonable person would opt for the former rather than the latter, I think.

not really. ya see, the Elitists seem to complain a lot.. but they dont actually leave. new players looking to get a foothold in the game.. Turbine doesnt want to discourage them because they do acutally leave if their attention isnt quickly peaked.

as I've said before, this game survived without offering special EE loot for quite some time. I've seen no compelling reason to bring it back.

Cetus
08-26-2014, 11:48 PM
not really. ya see, the Elitists seem to complain a lot.. but they dont actually leave. new players looking to get a foothold in the game.. Turbine doesnt want to discourage them because they do acutally leave if their attention isnt quickly peaked.

as I've said before, this game survived without offering special EE loot for quite some time. I've seen no compelling reason to bring it back.

They don't leave? Do you have any idea how many old friends who I ran with constantly no longer play this game? I call complete BS on that statement.

New players have an enormity of content to plow through. They don't need anything else, like - at all. When I started this game, along with many of my long-time co-veterans, we had a mere FRACTION of what exists today. And that was enough to keep us subscribed.

If what the current game offers to new players isn't enough, then I suspect attitudinal problems with these new players.

Endgame is starving for content. The amount of end game content is an emaciated sliver of what the newer players are immersed in. I've had it with caterings to new players - they have a gigantic buttload of stuff to do compared to us vets.

Takllin
08-27-2014, 12:19 AM
as I've said before, this game survived without offering special EE loot for quite some time. I've seen no compelling reason to bring it back.

There is a big difference between surviving, and slowly dying.....

Cetus
08-27-2014, 12:22 AM
There is a big difference between surviving, and slowly dying.....

And in addition, special EE loot came in the form of consuming darkness, goatskin boots, stolen necklace. So, we still had those carrots not too long ago.

Haunted Halls on the other hand....that's where the dying part came in.

Rykka
08-27-2014, 01:10 AM
Throughout the days of gianthold, high road, and the more recent stormhorns and wheloon adventure packs, the developers introduced a tiered loot system where the loot would gradually improve with the difficulty of the quest.

With this system, more casual easy going players were capable of tackling end-game content at a more comfortable level, while extracting the respective level of endgame loot.

At the same time, high-caliber players mostly avoided the lower difficulty options because there existed a carrot, an incentive, an impetus to consistently tackle endgame content at its most challenging level.

Additionally, the more casual easy going folk had complete opportunity to team up with their higher caliber friends in order to equip themselves with some of the higher level versions of endgame loot.

This system maintained the longevity of content throughout the entire endgame population. The likes of gianthold and high road were visited ad nauseum in order to acquire the different levels of treasure. Today, the epic elite versions of gianthold items are still relevant albeit the newer content that has been released since.

Today, the developers neglect to recognize the importance of such a system in maintaining the longevity of endgame content. Abandoning the tiered loot system left the most recent content barely lucrative. All of the loot has been extracted through repeated normal zerg runs. The haunted halls, temple of deathwyrm, and fire on thunder peak would have kept high calibre players busy for months trying to tackle these challenges in order to acquire the treasures.

Now, the developers are yet again making the same mistake. Epic orchard does not have a tiered loot system. All of the highest level loot is up for grabs the moment we decide to steam roll the content. Longevity is a fantasy, and I bet this is the reason why we perceive the game as "too easy" - the developers stopped manufacturing any impetus to do anything above normal.

Return the tiered loot system, please. Everybody wins.

I don't need overpowered loot as a reward for running EH or EE. I don't want the game to get easier the longer I play. Crazy but true.

Bridge_Dweller
08-27-2014, 01:16 AM
I don't need overpowered loot as a reward for running EH or EE.

It's about having something to sell.

Zoda
08-27-2014, 01:18 AM
not really. ya see, the Elitists seem to complain a lot.. but they dont actually leave.

Wait what? Are you serious when you say that? I feel like the number of active players on my friend list shrank to like 30%. My friends are all elitist by your definition, no exception.

Rykka
08-27-2014, 01:44 AM
It's about having something to sell.

I think it's about hording items that have a ML that's lower than what you earned them at. If the items in question have a ML of the level you earned them at then I have no problem with them. Run a L30 quest at L28, get L30 item and have to wait to use it. Or just issue L28 items to a L28 character. I'm OK with either. This giving out uber gear with MLs that are -5 levels is broken, hurts the game, and needs to go.

Rykka
08-27-2014, 02:10 AM
EE and EH/EN players cannot help but interact, through the game economy, through PUGs, and through the underlying balance of difficulty. How many times have you heard the phrase "get more hp", or some other derogatory comment, uttered during an EE PUG? When players far apart in the power spectrum meet, bad social interactions tend to happen. DDO has no mechanism for segregating players of different power.

Lots of players are stuck in the gulf between EH and EE. EH is too easy for them, yet EE is too difficult, so they tend to PUG EE. And you want more EE exclusive loot, so that you can further widen the power spectrum? Haven't you already posted videos of your toon soloing EE WGU? Haven't you complained that EE epic necro is way too easy with your existing toon? What are you hoping to accomplish with better loot? Solo WGU with one hand tied behind your back?

And you have the temerity to disparage the Devs for making content with no staying power. Of course they have no staying power to you. You are uninterested in things like storyline, artwork, D&D nostalgia, novel game mechanics. No. All you're interested in is loot. If a quest does not have significantly better loot, it's rubbish to you. With this set of incentives, why should Devs even bother with making new content, new artwork etc. Just periodically take old content, increase the stats on loot, and the power of mobs, and you are happy.

In fact, you don't even deserve human Devs. They should move you and your ilk to a special super duper elite server. Once the game engine detects that the majority of the player base have acquired the latest loot, it'll take a random adventure pack, multiply the mob hp by 3, multiply loot power by 2, and call that new content. A script will constantly dangle digital carrots in front of you, and you'll happily grind out ever more powerful loot to battle ever more powerful mobs.

my salute to you sir!

Eth
08-27-2014, 02:27 AM
not really. ya see, the Elitists seem to complain a lot.. but they dont actually leave.
My friendlist begs to differ.

Seljuck
08-27-2014, 02:56 AM
I think this thread is consistently demonstrating that any previous system is better than the current mechanic. There's quite a bit of disagreement as far as tiered loot goes specifically, but overall - scroll/seal/shard and FOT system ranks higher as a preference than just giving away loot essentially for free, like it is now.

Devs, take some extra time - and release this the right way. Make the current versions of some of the more powerful items - e.g. Litany, Boots, Goggles, Gloves, etc. become the upper tier fully upgraded equivalents, and just tone down their stats to make up the lower tier versions of it.

It would take you guys minimal effort to do this. It would also allow you to make some of the weaker items e.g. helms, cloak of ice, etc. as the lower tier versions, and tweak them up a bit.

While you're at it - make litany of the dead an epic quest - and release this pack like a dignified epification of orchard that we all expected it to be.

I have to agree here. It's that what should be done. I'm fine with weeks or months delay on another update if i know, it will give player base what they wish for.


Since we have few more pages in this thread, il repost link to poll :)

End Game Loot Systems Poll (http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=53fcbd34e4b062e9cdb24904#)

Zoda
08-27-2014, 03:17 AM
I have to agree here. It's that what should be done. I'm fine with weeks or months delay on another update if i know, it will give player base what they wish for.


Sincewe havge few more pages in this thread, il repost link to poll :)

End Game Loot Systems Poll (http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=53fcbd34e4b062e9cdb24904#)

Missing the option of revised seal/scroll/shard system with OLD drop rates :D
Anyway, easiest vote of my life. Unfortunately I doubt it makes any difference that we have this poll :(

MonadRebelion
08-27-2014, 03:29 AM
EE and EH/EN players cannot help but interact, through the game economy, through PUGs, and through the underlying balance of difficulty. How many times have you heard the phrase "get more hp", or some other derogatory comment, uttered during an EE PUG? When players far apart in the power spectrum meet, bad social interactions tend to happen. DDO has no mechanism for segregating players of different power.

Lots of players are stuck in the gulf between EH and EE. EH is too easy for them, yet EE is too difficult, so they tend to PUG EE. And you want more EE exclusive loot, so that you can further widen the power spectrum? Haven't you already posted videos of your toon soloing EE WGU? Haven't you complained that EE epic necro is way too easy with your existing toon? What are you hoping to accomplish with better loot? Solo WGU with one hand tied behind your back?

And you have the temerity to disparage the Devs for making content with no staying power. Of course they have no staying power to you. You are uninterested in things like storyline, artwork, D&D nostalgia, novel game mechanics. No. All you're interested in is loot. If a quest does not have significantly better loot, it's rubbish to you. With this set of incentives, why should Devs even bother with making new content, new artwork etc. Just periodically take old content, increase the stats on loot, and the power of mobs, and you are happy.

In fact, you don't even deserve human Devs. They should move you and your ilk to a special super duper elite server. Once the game engine detects that the majority of the player base have acquired the latest loot, it'll take a random adventure pack, multiply the mob hp by 3, multiply loot power by 2, and call that new content. A script will constantly dangle digital carrots in front of you, and you'll happily grind out ever more powerful loot to battle ever more powerful mobs.

I agree. A tiered loot system should not be used to create a huge gap between EE players and EH player. However, if you can use tiered loot that creates a pretty marginal gap in power to keep people interested in the game that sounds good to me. The main reasons for using the tiered loot system don't have to do with inflating the power of items. Look at the TBC loot system. The explorers, quests, and chain reward all give the same named loot that is bound to account. It seems like people ran it for a bit, got the loot they wanted and moved on. Honestly, it's hard for me to see how turbine could make much money developing that content. Most likely few people had to buy it, and they certainly aren't making money from shards. Compare that to Gianthold, Wheloon, and the Stormhorns. Seems like people run that a lot more, and I gotta believe the fact that the difficulty with which best loot from those quests in conjunction with the fact that you can sell that loot for shards has something to do with this. I suspect turbine will not be making tons of money selling necro 4 when u23 goes live. I suspect most people don't need to buy that content. However, I would like for this company to make some money so I can continue playing this game. I suspect a way they could make money from u23 is from shard sales if the u23 loot was closer to the tier system than the TBC system. From the preview, it seems like the loot is so powerful and there is so much of it that tons of stuff you see selling on the shard exchange is going to be eclipsed. This makes me think the shard market is going to tank. If instead they made the u23 loot more like the tier system, I suspect they would actually be able to make some money (or lose less?) from u23. At any rate, if you've been looking at the forums very much since the u23 preview, you'll surely have taken notice of what a lot of the elitists have been saying about it. Specifically, they are all concerned that the u23 changes are way too powerful. The elitists are just as concerned with power creep as you. At the end of the day they want the same thing as you. They want to play the game intelligently and be challenged.

Wizza
08-27-2014, 04:13 AM
You can farm the 4 mythic items on EN and tell us how that goes.

Based on my runs through the new quests the Litany pre-raid doesn't really fit into the epic storyline.

I do think having a Tor-like capstone quest is a good idea for loot farming, but litany was primarily just a big xp farm on heroic and I doubt it would be any different on epic unless the xp wasn't proportional.

Anyhow I hope the devs put more effort into level 30 and the plan for end game when the cap is set at 30 for quite some time.

You have no clue about the Mythic drop rates. But, so far, we have different reasons to believe that they are going to suck. Just look at Deathwyrm and Thunder Peak, named loot is supposed to be more frequent on EE than EN and yet, we barely see any named loot. Don't let me start on the Tomes.


EE and EH/EN players cannot help but interact, through the game economy, through PUGs, and through the underlying balance of difficulty. How many times have you heard the phrase "get more hp", or some other derogatory comment, uttered during an EE PUG? When players far apart in the power spectrum meet, bad social interactions tend to happen. DDO has no mechanism for segregating players of different power.

Many times, because I'm the one actually SUGGESTING them how to get better. If you don't wanna take my suggestions, that's fine, but then don't blame other people for being "stuck" in EH.



Lots of players are stuck in the gulf between EH and EE. EH is too easy for them, yet EE is too difficult, so they tend to PUG EE. And you want more EE exclusive loot, so that you can further widen the power spectrum? Haven't you already posted videos of your toon soloing EE WGU? Haven't you complained that EE epic necro is way too easy with your existing toon? What are you hoping to accomplish with better loot? Solo WGU with one hand tied behind your back?

So, people who thinks EE is too difficult will pug and will actually complete the quest, thus getting better loot. Tell me how that is bad for a game. It encourages people to group up and overcome difficulties togheter while actually reward them. THE HORROR!

See, this is where you are wrong. The loot is awesome. Now make the lower tiers of the good items (Epic boots of Innocent, Mentaus goggles) and the upper tiers for items that suck at the moment (Cloak of Ice) and there you go, tiered loot with no more power creep than we are getting now and making everyone happy.



And you have the temerity to disparage the Devs for making content with no staying power. Of course they have no staying power to you. You are uninterested in things like storyline, artwork, D&D nostalgia, novel game mechanics. No. All you're interested in is loot. If a quest does not have significantly better loot, it's rubbish to you. With this set of incentives, why should Devs even bother with making new content, new artwork etc. Just periodically take old content, increase the stats on loot, and the power of mobs, and you are happy.

All things that last how much again? That's right, 2 runs. Oh, you should see the streaming with Cordovan where I actually praised the art team of this game, being one of its best perks. But of course you won't.

Storyline keeping content alive...right.

This set of incentives...yep. D&D nostalgia is keeping content alive folks! Oh wait, I never actually playied D&D. I think I should quit now, there is no D&D nostalgia to me. Bye folks :(



In fact, you don't even deserve human Devs. They should move you and your ilk to a special super duper elite server. Once the game engine detects that the majority of the player base have acquired the latest loot, it'll take a random adventure pack, multiply the mob hp by 3, multiply loot power by 2, and call that new content. A script will constantly dangle digital carrots in front of you, and you'll happily grind out ever more powerful loot to battle ever more powerful mobs.

Aaaahhhh.


not really. ya see, the Elitists seem to complain a lot.. but they dont actually leave. new players looking to get a foothold in the game.. Turbine doesnt want to discourage them because they do acutally leave if their attention isnt quickly peaked.

as I've said before, this game survived without offering special EE loot for quite some time. I've seen no compelling reason to bring it back.

So wrong. Many of us are playing less and less this game. Two days ago, one guy said to another: "I need 1.2m XP, wanna do High road?" and the other one answered "Meh, how many times have we done High road already? 1 million? **** that".

No, I didn't make up this and I wasn't making the question or the reply. It's the sad state of this game. We get 4 quests per pack, with loot that you can get in 1-2 weeks on Epic Normal, no replayability, no loot to sell, not even a challenge anymore with all these changes.

Wizza
08-27-2014, 04:16 AM
Funny thing: we absolutely have gotten zero answers from any of the Developers in any Loot thread, be it this one, the unofficial one or the Official one. Replies about the items themselves, not replies to "Insightful does not stack with itself"

Portalcat
08-27-2014, 05:03 AM
not really. ya see, the Elitists seem to complain a lot.. but they dont actually leave.

I know quite a few people who were endgame-focused who dropped off the map for a couple months after U22 specifically because there "was nothing left to do". These are people who farmed endgame consistently for the past several updates without a major break. Our guild leader, who has historically had zero interest in reincarnation, is currently taking an extended League of Legends sabbatical. I personally spent the past two months barely logging in.


I expect to see a lot of these people jump head first into the new raid. My fear though is that if we build an endgame with a bunch of BtA loot that you can farm readily on EH, this is going to be another update where we play for a few weeks then go play a different game until the next update rather than one which makes DDO our goto game for several months. One of these scenarios is a whole lot better for DDO.

Feralthyrtiaq
08-27-2014, 05:11 AM
Loot is not an incentive for me to run EE at all. The satisfaction of completing an occasional EE whether easy or messy is the only incentive. Basically for esses and gees.

The only incentive that would drive me to run EE is a "reputation" mechanic where you earn "Reputation" points only available on EE that can be traded in for Armor and Helm appearance kits with a variety of Augment Slots.

Grinding for endgame loot or tiered EE loot is a tired outdated mechanic that sucks as a process and drives people to find "alternative" sources to acquiring gear.

Having something visible in game like an armor kit with a modest bump to character power via aumemt slots that is BTC and ONLY available by running EE is the only thing that says "Hey! I am a total badass break yourself and recognize"

Otherwise EE is just kind of meh....

kmoustakas
08-27-2014, 06:56 AM
? would vote for an upgraded seal/shard/scroll system. The ingredients though would have to be UNBOUND and AUCTIONABLE. Not just astral shard auctionable. Drop rates depending on difficulty of the quest.

ycheese123
08-27-2014, 06:59 AM
Haven't read every page, but I've read a few. Agreed that there should be some sort of tiered loot system. Running ee for challenge isn't good enough for me. I need some kind of better reward other than saying "I did it", otherwise I don't care about ee. Just my feelings. I also liked the scroll/shard/seal system from the old epics, and never had a problem with the "grind" when I was making those items back then. But thinking about it now I don't like it very much because basically you're running something over and over just trying to get lucky. There's no skill or challenge involved in running eVoN 200 times waiting for an esos shard to drop. You shouldn't automatically get the best thing on the first run either. There's so many problems with this aspect of the game right now and I don't know what the solution is. I just wanna build an awesome character and play good content at CAP both for the fun of the challenge AND for some sweet loot. Some sweet loot that requires what I've gained from years of playing to get; some sweet loot that someone who has been playing for only 2 months can't grab just as easily on their 28point trainwreck. Speaking of easy content - I'd like raids that don't get rolfstomped in the first hour of release. I want a raid where I check the achievements forums 6months after it's out and finally there's the first comp and I'll be excited and impressed. Seriously, when this new raid drops there's almost no reason to post a first comp in the forums other than saying "first!", because it's pretty safe to assume it's gonna be done in the first night. And to me, whether I could get a group to do that or not, it's not impressive, it just means the content sucks and is too easy. I could continue ranting on raid bypasses and how stupid it was to put those in cards, but I've already gone off topic. Gahh. Going to bed.

This as well...


Whatever happened to the rest of orchard loot? What happened to staff of the petitioner, to unwavering ardency, you know...those deathnips?
Whatever happened to making the litany of the dead QUEST epic?
Think about it...you're giving us 4 quests and a raid with all of the loot easily acquirable on normal.

Seems like this update was just some random parts of necro got epic'd. Certainly not the Gianthold treatment I was hoping for.

ddo.rsmo.pt
08-27-2014, 07:01 AM
I agree with Cetus, as soon as I saw the great new loot on Lamma, and it didn't have a Tiered scheme, I thought: "Oh, this is so wrong..."

Stuff that comes from quests are so powerful that I thought for a second it came from the Raid. But no. EN quests will do.

Carry on.

PS: I would like to add again, that Chain Rewards should also be Tiered, like Saga rewards.

Wizza
08-27-2014, 07:29 AM
The best part of the Shroud, LoB and old Epic Crafting was that there are some ingredients BtC, so you actually have to run the quests by yourself to make the item, and another part completely unbound, so you could sell and trade those.

Zoda
08-27-2014, 07:51 AM
The best part of the Shroud, LoB and old Epic Crafting was that there are some ingredients BtC, so you actually have to run the quests by yourself to make the item, and another part completely unbound, so you could sell and trade those.

That's a good point... why have I not thought about that?

Log on to steam slacker, it's dota time.

slarden
08-27-2014, 07:52 AM
You wrote 10x the reward, this is false. It's 10x the chance to get a single item. No I'm not satisfied with this.

Absolute satisfaction: When I can get something out of EE that I cannot get anywhere else.

Relative Satisfaction: An upgrade system which I can bypass by directly acquiring the item from EE.

This sounds like throwing in the towel in even trying to tackle EE content. Why play an MMO when you couldn't care less about accomplishing a meaningful victory. What story ever piqued your interest where the adversary or major conflict was easily resolved. The only exclusivity I promote here is loot access to EE content. ALL players have access to EE content.

No, I wasn't comparing an MMO to a PhD.

Correct 10x the drop rate for the mythics in EE vs. EH and considering no casual player is ever going to farm for a rare item like that it will be rare if a casual player has 1 item from a lucky drop. You saw the difference between epic and mythic and you are going make a massive deal about a tiny fraction of casual players having 1 item that adds a tiny amount of player power that has less impact on a quest than your twitching? You have to understand how happy it will make that new or casual player to get it. Why do you want to take away fun for people that aren't here to conquer EE, but just to run with their friends and have a good time?

It's ultimately up to the devs, but as someone who has no problem running EEs myself I just think what you want is not only bad for the game it does nothing to help you. You simply want to make the game harder and less rewarding for others while demanding the game is more rewarding for you. You make demands for moar moar moar often.

The same small group of people making the same demands are unpleasable and Turbine must realize that by now.

slarden
08-27-2014, 08:04 AM
It's about having something to sell.

The real issue. I agree. I thought Turbine would address that, but perhaps their data shows they make more money from players re-rolling than they do from powergamers selling.

Or perhaps they are trying to figure out the right formula before the level cap is 30 and their end game loot mechanic is in place.

Wipey
08-27-2014, 08:09 AM
I asked Steel or Varg on Lama if they will stick with bta loot forever.
"Forever is a long time".
...

Takllin
08-27-2014, 08:12 AM
Wait what? Are you serious when you say that? I feel like the number of active players on my friend list shrank to like 30%. My friends are all elitist by your definition, no exception.

+1

My friendlist begs to differ.

+1


So wrong. Many of us are playing less and less this game. Two days ago, one guy said to another: "I need 1.2m XP, wanna do High road?" and the other one answered "Meh, how many times have we done High road already? 1 million? **** that".

No, I didn't make up this and I wasn't making the question or the reply. It's the sad state of this game. We get 4 quests per pack, with loot that you can get in 1-2 weeks on Epic Normal, no replayability, no loot to sell, not even a challenge anymore with all these changes.

Haha hey this was me asking the question!! Friggin Cetus wouldn;t help meh!


I know quite a few people who were endgame-focused who dropped off the map for a couple months after U22 specifically because there "was nothing left to do". These are people who farmed endgame consistently for the past several updates without a major break. Our guild leader, who has historically had zero interest in reincarnation, is currently taking an extended League of Legends sabbatical. I personally spent the past two months barely logging in.


I expect to see a lot of these people jump head first into the new raid. My fear though is that if we build an endgame with a bunch of BtA loot that you can farm readily on EH, this is going to be another update where we play for a few weeks then go play a different game until the next update rather than one which makes DDO our goto game for several months. One of these scenarios is a whole lot better for DDO.

Completely agree, I have many friends who log in from time to time to talk, and they always ask, what is going on at endgame, is it still dead? Answer is always the same: Yup.

Zoda
08-27-2014, 08:21 AM
The same small group of people making the same demands are unpleasable and Turbine must realize that by now.

Okay, my opinion on loot systems of different updates (I'm only giving opinion of the loot and it's distribution here, not the rest of the update)
-I was by far the happiest with the loot systems before the expansions (epic, GS and alchemical crafting are still the best this game has to offer imo, in terms of loot systems)
-I hated MOTU. drop rates made no sense, everything was fastest to get on spam running normal
-Druid's Curse was okay, although lacking of interesting loot
-High Road had good tiered loot, I liked it
-Gianthold had both tiered and upgradable loot, it was by far the best we got since the old days
-Stormhorns/Wheloon was okay, pretty much the same as high road
-Study/Brothers was not a real update, never cared about anything from those quests
-Thunderholm was okay, glad that devs recognized the need for an endgame crafting system for weapons, on the other hand the drop rate and distribution of named raid loot is the all time worst Turbine ever came up with
-3BC is a joke, I went to the slayer zone about a month after release (took a disappointment break for various reasons), and got the only piece of loot that held any interest for me from the 2nd chest I opened, worst non raid loot system ever

I'm sure that anyone from this hateful group of players you are refering to would agree with me. Your claim that we can't be pleased is a nonsene.

Impaqt
08-27-2014, 08:34 AM
They don't leave? Do you have any idea how many old friends who I ran with constantly no longer play this game? I call complete BS on that statement.

New players have an enormity of content to plow through. They don't need anything else, like - at all. When I started this game, along with many of my long-time co-veterans, we had a mere FRACTION of what exists today. And that was enough to keep us subscribed.

If what the current game offers to new players isn't enough, then I suspect attitudinal problems with these new players.

Endgame is starving for content. The amount of end game content is an emaciated sliver of what the newer players are immersed in. I've had it with caterings to new players - they have a gigantic buttload of stuff to do compared to us vets.


Wait what? Are you serious when you say that? I feel like the number of active players on my friend list shrank to like 30%. My friends are all elitist by your definition, no exception.


My friendlist begs to differ.

I guess I should clarify.

Elitists rarely leave because of things like loot.

People leave games all the time for lots of different reasons.

If special loot was a high priority, why would any elite player ever started playing this game in the first place?

Cetus
08-27-2014, 08:35 AM
+1


+1


Haha hey this was me asking the question!! Friggin Cetus wouldn;t help meh!
.

Hey - I only logged in to chat, med school is demanding!

slarden
08-27-2014, 09:10 AM
Okay, my opinion on loot systems of different updates (I'm only giving opinion of the loot and it's distribution here, not the rest of the update)
-I was by far the happiest with the loot systems before the expansions (epic, GS and alchemical crafting are still the best this game has to offer imo, in terms of loot systems)
-I hated MOTU. drop rates made no sense, everything was fastest to get on spam running normal
-Druid's Curse was okay, although lacking of interesting loot
-High Road had good tiered loot, I liked it
-Gianthold had both tiered and upgradable loot, it was by far the best we got since the old days
-Stormhorns/Wheloon was okay, pretty much the same as high road
-Study/Brothers was not a real update, never cared about anything from those quests
-Thunderholm was okay, glad that devs recognized the need for an endgame crafting system for weapons, on the other hand the drop rate and distribution of named raid loot is the all time worst Turbine ever came up with
-3BC is a joke, I went to the slayer zone about a month after release (took a disappointment break for various reasons), and got the only piece of loot that held any interest for me from the 2nd chest I opened, worst non raid loot system ever

I'm sure that anyone from this hateful group of players you are refering to would agree with me. Your claim that we can't be pleased is a nonsene.

What you are mostly commenting on is the usefulness and sellability of the items and I agree with your assessment. With the massive # of complaints about power creep you can't blame the devs for being cautious about gear which I am guessing to the 3bc and orchard loot.

I found the 3bc gloves and hat to be useful leveling gear and the jibbers blade can be useful @ all levels. That is basically what it is - leveling gear.

The orchard loot looks good, but my feeling all along has been I am not going to worry too much about gear until the level cap is 30 because what I ever I use is temporary and as long as my main stat is maxed out I don't care about +1 here or there. I will make gear swaps, but I am not worried about optimization because none of those +1s are going make the difference between completion and not completing.

I like both the epic and the greensteel systems as well, but unfortunately the exploits in the game make any system involving baggable items subject to exploits. I like the FOT system except as people complained about - it was too easy to get the items on EE and then there was no reason to run the raid except for people running on lower difficulties. There was also an FOT exploit that made it easily completable on EE by any group for a time.

There are only a few pieces of gear from eGH I would use today and it mainly has to do with the lack of insightful items available in the game.

As someone that runs with both powergamers that want to run only EE and casual players that prefer not to run EE I think Haunted Halls is also a great system for everyone. It is clearly more rewarding on higher difficulties, but the gear is obtainable on all difficulties.

janave
08-27-2014, 09:39 AM
Tiered loot is the worst thing they have done for loot in DDO, probably on par with ghostbane and current randgen, but probably worse since most players eventually aim for the named loot, so they can slot a larger variety of stats.

Takllin
08-27-2014, 10:08 AM
I guess I should clarify.

Elitists rarely leave because of things like loot.

People leave games all the time for lots of different reasons.

If special loot was a high priority, why would any elite player ever started playing this game in the first place?

Loot is just part of the problem, I also believe that loot was never specifically mentioned as the sole reason for people leaving the game, it was the lack of end game content and end game loot, not just the loot.

Are you saying DDO doesn't have special loot? I'd beg to differ.

Forul
08-27-2014, 10:40 AM
All four U23 Mythic helms are in the central cabinet of the Test Dojo on Lamannia. If you have feedback about particular ones, please post it in the Official Loot Feedback Thread, located here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447270-U23-Items-Feedback-thread

The drop rate for Mythic items on EN is very low. On EE, it's still low, but as Varg said, it's up to 10x the Epic Hard value. These are not meant to be easy to obtain, even on Epic Elite. However, your best chances of getting one will be on Epic Elite by a long shot.

Tomes for the U23 raid will follow a similar pattern to the U21 raids - Rare, with the +6 Tomes exclusive to Epic Elite. If you wish to find one, you should run the raid on Epic Elite.


If its as rare as you say i think they could use a bit more of a buff above the epic version.

Also do we have confirmation that +6 tomes are actually in the loot tables of FoTp and Todw i find it hard to believe with all the EE completions and chests that they have never dropped or been reported.

slarden
08-27-2014, 10:54 AM
If its as rare as you say i think they could use a bit more of a buff above the epic version.

Also do we have confirmation that +6 tomes are actually in the loot tables of FoTp and Todw i find it hard to believe with all the EE completions and chests that they have never dropped or been reported.

Somewhere in this thread someone did say they saw one drop.

Zoda
08-27-2014, 11:05 AM
Somewhere in this thread someone did say they saw one drop.

Screenshot or never happened.

Cetus
08-27-2014, 11:33 AM
Tiered loot is the worst thing they have done for loot in DDO, probably on par with ghostbane and current randgen, but probably worse since most players eventually aim for the named loot, so they can slot a larger variety of stats.
Probably not the worst. Giving away upper tier loot for free is objectively worse than any of the mentioned systems.

patang01
08-27-2014, 11:41 AM
First, I think Mythic items should drop in EH and EE only with a better chance (like it's setup now) on EE. Not so much as an incentive but we've seen that system before, with the eardweller. It can only be had on Hard and Elite. That should really be the idea behind all special loot. A really small chance on EH and 10x better chance on EE.
Second, these Mythic items are not special. I just can't find a good reason to use them. The set bonus is not that strong and the items are not that good. There's no reason to consider replacing what I already use now. My suggestion is to add a +4 insightful ability to them. I know they're BTA, but what's the point in making a 'Mythic' item if no one seem all that interested in them?

slarden
08-27-2014, 12:21 PM
Probably not the worst. Giving away upper tier loot for free is objectively worse than any of the mentioned systems.

Only to the tiny percentage of people that are more interested in making the game less rewarding for others rather than making their own game experience better. It's a fringe group that Turbine can't please.

slarden
08-27-2014, 12:25 PM
Screenshot or never happened.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447553-We-need-a-tiered-loot-system?p=5414511&viewfull=1#post5414511

Seikojin
08-27-2014, 12:33 PM
I think a tiered loot system is perfectly viable and reasonable. They somewhat have that already everywhere: rare items have a higher chance to drop on elite. You cannot farm all items on the lowest difficulty without hitting a frustration threshold. Once you get there, you bump difficulty up. That is your tier up step.

After a while they started adding even more tiering. You can only get tomes on hard or elite of some quests.

You can only get some items from hard optionals.

The myriad of loot systems in place could be replaced with a singular loot system. It would be nice. However, many people to this day call it ghostbane. Basically have higher tier of all named items, spread those tiers across hard and elite. From ring of feathers, all the way up to where tiered systems already exist. Then new loot has tiers because the decision to have it is smart.

I don't mind if the drop rates are low too. Especially if they add +1 chest on hard +2 on elite. Everyone loves more chances. :)

Vasax
08-27-2014, 02:53 PM
when we getting these?

http://s9.postimg.org/4bmiaj7qn/mortssongvasaxtheepic.jpg

Takllin
08-27-2014, 03:22 PM
when we getting these?

http://s9.postimg.org/4bmiaj7qn/mortssongvasaxtheepic.jpg

Uhh what is that from?

Qhualor
08-27-2014, 04:16 PM
im not against a tiered loot system. I just don't like how different versions have 3 different MLs. an EN version of an item I can use something else in the same slot that is just as good or better. I vendor EN. im satisfied with EH loot until I get past lives done and actually want to upgrade my gear to EE versions.

I was never really against the old s/s/s system either as it gave us something to do back then. I just didn't like how obscenely difficult it was for some of the s/s/s to drop after farming the same quest hundreds of times, even with groups that were willing to pass if they pulled what you wanted. also, back then caster types controlled the scroll market.

Abbot/GH tokens to upgrade old loot was a decent idea. it just sucked when you already had the item, but you had to go back and re-run Abbot/Reavers looking for those tokens.

specific ingredients that only dropped on specific difficulties to upgrade gear was a good idea on paper. eventually it made putting groups together more difficult as some people need to run normal, while others needed to run elite for certain ingredients.

im totally against a system that drops loot on normal as elite. its one thing if its a noticeable droprate on a higher difficulty, but when you hear from a friend who heard from their girlfriend who heard in a pug group by this guy that knows this other guy that was told by his brother that he looted those named gloves of awesomesauce, than that just isn't what I call incentive. much faster and easier to get what you want on a difficulty that you can invis/zerg your way through to the end chest and than invite 5 other guildies for more chances.

weve had many different ways to upgrade loot or had incentive to run higher difficulties, but there is always a problem with the system that cant make majority happy. any system Turbine comes up with is not going to be perfect and is always going to be met with friction from the powergamers or the casuals or anyone in between.

Seljuck
08-27-2014, 04:39 PM
Uhh what is that from?

Looks like Sentient Weapon, that devs are working on. I think Cordovan mention about them at twitch or YT Video... or maybe it was In producer letter? I'm not sure.

If I remember well, Sentient weapons could gain XP and level up, which makes them stronger.

If I'm correct It's in phase of researching. There's no certainty that Devs actually implement it.

Takllin
08-27-2014, 05:18 PM
Looks like Sentient Weapon, that devs are working on. I think Cordovan mention about them at twitch or YT Video... or maybe it was In producer letter? I'm not sure.

If I remember well, Sentient weapons could gain XP and level up, which makes them stronger.

If I'm correct It's in phase of researching. There's no certainty that Devs actually implement it.

True, it just looked a bit like DDO, but a bit different that I wasn;t sure where it was from.

Also, never seen any pictures before, is this posted somewhere or did someone just break an NDA?

Seljuck
08-27-2014, 05:26 PM
True, it just looked a bit like DDO, but a bit different that I wasn;t sure where it was from.

Also, never seen any pictures before, is this posted somewhere or did someone just break an NDA?

I never saw that before. Could be NDA or fake ;] But I must say, I like how it looks. Refreshed item window, Hardness bar, better font, and ofcourse item effects.

Nightmanis
08-27-2014, 05:47 PM
The reason the drop rates are so abysmally low is because of raid timers.

Get rid of the raid timers, and drop rates will increase.

Random thought from a post earlier in the thread

SirValentine
08-27-2014, 05:55 PM
Tiered loot is the worst thing they have done for loot in DDO, probably on par with ghostbane and current randgen, but probably worse since most players eventually aim for the named loot, so they can slot a larger variety of stats.

Tier loot is awesome. Since most players eventually aim for the named loot, tiered loot lets them be able to get it. Casuals get named loot, elitists get slightly better named loot; everybody wins!

I don't consider FoT-style loot to be tiered loot at all. It's up-gradable loot, but that's not the same thing.

B0ltdrag0n
08-27-2014, 09:12 PM
Tier loot is awesome. Since most players eventually aim for the named loot, tiered loot lets them be able to get it. Casuals get named loot, elitists get slightly better named loot; everybody wins!

I don't consider FoT-style loot to be tiered loot at all. It's up-gradable loot, but that's not the same thing.

Upgradable is a version of tiered. It is in fact a better version.

Vasax
08-27-2014, 11:54 PM
hmmmm....

http://s13.postimg.org/5pmgi2xtz/shadowsistersvasaxtheepic.jpg

Takllin
08-28-2014, 12:16 AM
hmmmm....

http://s13.postimg.org/5pmgi2xtz/shadowsistersvasaxtheepic.jpg

Where are you getting these?

FlaviusMaximus
08-28-2014, 03:13 AM
Where are you getting these?

Pulling them out of the Bag of Many Photoshopped Things.

Wizza
08-28-2014, 04:09 AM
Pulling them out of the Bag of Many Photoshopped Things.

I was thinking more about NDA. 16 posts user.

And the Spell Peripety actually gave me hopes for new spells :( You are mean.

Flavilandile
08-28-2014, 07:08 AM
I never saw that before. Could be NDA or fake ;] But I must say, I like how it looks. Refreshed item window, Hardness bar, better font, and ofcourse item effects.

Not NDA. LoTRO has Sentient Weapon... that's where you need to look. Especially since it's the same game engine used there and in DDO... Losts of things are similar looking.


Where are you getting these?

LoTRO most probably.

As a basic disclaimer :
The Player Council does not see finished products.. Especially when it comes to items.
For the items we have long dev posts with the items submitted and under each item we have what the item do in game term...
For the other things, we get to see UI templates, with comments like : this goes there
What this is and what there is being explained by the accompanying post.
The screenshots above are clearly from (semi) finished products...

Noctus
08-28-2014, 08:57 AM
Haven't read every page, but I've read a few. Agreed that there should be some sort of tiered loot system. Running ee for challenge isn't good enough for me. I need some kind of better reward other than saying "I did it", otherwise I don't care about ee.

I fully agree.

I really liked it and felt motivated to run EEs with Gianthold. Higher difficulty = slightly better item was really good. YOu could spambore-run yourself through several normals to get the item, but if you wanted the slightly better The Best version you had to run EEs.

Zerging through several trivial EHs or even Ens is booooOOOooooring, but if that is what gets you your desired item the quickest, its what the vast majority of people will do.

katz
08-28-2014, 09:07 AM
when we getting these?




hmmmm....




obvious fake is obvious

A+ photoshop skillz. D- attention to detail.

Takllin
08-28-2014, 09:20 AM
Not NDA. LoTRO has Sentient Weapon... that's where you need to look. Especially since it's the same game engine used there and in DDO... Losts of things are similar looking.



LoTRO most probably.

As a basic disclaimer :
The Player Council does not see finished products.. Especially when it comes to items.
For the items we have long dev posts with the items submitted and under each item we have what the item do in game term...
For the other things, we get to see UI templates, with comments like : this goes there
What this is and what there is being explained by the accompanying post.
The screenshots above are clearly from (semi) finished products...

Unless LoTRO has received a massive UI overhaul from when I last played, I don't it is from there.

I was thinking it was some kind of NDA breach, but also could have been some kind of photoshop as well.

Seikojin
08-28-2014, 12:10 PM
Unless LoTRO has received a massive UI overhaul from when I last played, I don't it is from there.

I was thinking it was some kind of NDA breach, but also could have been some kind of photoshop as well.

It could be shopped backgrounds and internals matching the users skinned UI pack for ddo. Nothing legit that I see however.

Flavilandile
08-28-2014, 12:34 PM
Unless LoTRO has received a massive UI overhaul from when I last played, I don't it is from there.

I was thinking it was some kind of NDA breach, but also could have been some kind of photoshop as well.

Then it's a shopped thing... Maybe bits and peices from LoTRO, NWO and other games put together with some good use of The Gimp or Photoshop.

katz
08-28-2014, 12:47 PM
1. background is wrong color/pattern
2. text is the wrong color
3. there IS no item border that is that pattern AND color. borders that color are all either more simple, or more ornate, borders that shape are all gold (see image below for example)
4. text is way too clear for a screenshot (screenshot below taken at high settings for comparison. notice text is slightly pixel-y)
5. wavy/pixel-y at the top border
6. horribad grammar mistake in text of dagger. i know Turbine is bad at it sometimes, but this is way worse than usual.
7. hardness/damage bar wrong shape/wrong text/wrong overall appearance.
compare to what items look like currently:
http://i.imgur.com/yWvC74x.jpg

it *is* possible it's a rough draft and showing a new UI or user UI skin... but i really think these are fake

Vasax
08-28-2014, 01:14 PM
yum nom nom...

http://s27.postimg.org/80mpu7uoj/dustofracelessnessvasaxtheepic.jpg

JOTMON
08-28-2014, 06:02 PM
Lots of players are stuck in the gulf between EH and EE. EH is too easy for them, yet EE is too difficult, so they tend to PUG EE. And you want more EE exclusive loot, so that you can further widen the power spectrum? Haven't you already posted videos of your toon soloing EE WGU? Haven't you complained that EE epic necro is way too easy with your existing toon? What are you hoping to accomplish with better loot? Solo WGU with one hand tied behind your back?


What I see of Players stuck in the EN/EH range.. they are lacking gear and playing experience.. not that there is anything wrong with this we were all here.
Farming quests like shroud for gear/clickies, stocking up on potions, plat, cannith crafting, its all part of the bigger puzzle.

a lot of players are zerging to endgame without the benefit of useful gear, supplies, or mob experience..

So whats the motivation to research.., go back and run quests that give bonuses/buffs/gear, TR, ER, Iconic TR,..
If these "stuck players" are not willing to grind quests to get the little perks that may keep them alive, then what is the point of challenge.

It is a uphill battle, we will usually take the path of least resistance to the best rewards... the best rewards should have the most difficult challenges.
It may take some players months, years to get to the EE content.. but so what.. there is no time limit, it is a long term vested game with more going on than just hack and slash one quest after the other until you win DDO.

If every player doesn't fail and figure out how to bolster themselves, use strategy, teamwork, self recognition of limitations then there is no point to playing the game.

Shein
08-29-2014, 01:23 PM
First, I loved the tiered loot system and am irritated that it was removed to appease people who think they should get the same rewards for less effort. If you're only running epic hard quests, you only need epic hard loot to be successful at it. If you just have to have epic elite loot, you can... either by getting better at the game, making friends, or simply purchasing it from the auction house. Tiered loot gave us a reason to run EE content more than once.

That being said, why does it have to be ONE way? Can't we have all these systems in place and use them situationally? Doesn't that seem like the best way to approach a subject where, no matter what you do, not everyone is going to like it? Give us some packs with tiered loot, some packs with upgradeable loot, some packs with mythical loot, and some packs with none of the above. These systems are already in place in the various packs, and i see no reason why we have to decide on just one. Don't make every pack have tiered loot... but don't nix it all together..

Also.. to weight in on another subject... stop with all the BtA & BtC named non-raid loot. At the end of the day, unbound items are good for your pocketbook. That ASAH is a good source of revenue for Turbine, and the more we can sell to each other, the more lucrative it is for them. Casual players who don't have the play-time to grind out items can PtW, and a portion of those proceeds go to the player who spent the time and effort. I felt like Turbine caught on to this since most of the recent updates contained mostly unbound loot. Then e3BC came out and were back to the old ways. I ran those quests enough times to get the items i wanted, and haven't been back.

Steelstar
08-29-2014, 01:46 PM
First, I loved the tiered loot system and am irritated that it was removed to appease people who think they should get the same rewards for less effort.

There are many reasons we've shifted away from Tiered loot in the last few updates. This is not one of them.

Wizza
08-29-2014, 01:47 PM
There are many reasons we've shifted away from Tiered loot in the last few updates. This is not one of them.

Which are the reasons?

Cetus
08-29-2014, 01:56 PM
There are many reasons we've shifted away from Tiered loot in the last few updates. This is not one of them.

That's easy to say...

How about some of the actual reasons? It isn't clear to me what they are. The more pressing reasons voiced by others err on the side of being rather short sighted, in my opinion of course.

Portalcat
08-29-2014, 02:03 PM
Which are the reasons?


That's easy to say...

How about some of the actual reasons? It isn't clear to me what they are. The more pressing reasons voiced by others err on the side of being rather short sighted, in my opinion of course.

+1

It's never really been explained why we've shifted loot systems, and it would be very clarifying to those of us who are bemoaning this BtA loot system to know why we're using it instead of alternatives.

Takllin
08-29-2014, 02:12 PM
+1

It's never really been explained why we've shifted loot systems, and it would be very clarifying to those of us who are bemoaning this BtA loot system to know why we're using it instead of alternatives.

As much as I'd like to know, I am very skeptical we will get an official reason.

They can say that they did not move away from tiered loot to appease the casual player base, but that is exactly what they did...

patang01
08-29-2014, 03:32 PM
First, I loved the tiered loot system and am irritated that it was removed to appease people who think they should get the same rewards for less effort.
Like buying it off the Shard AH? That type of challenge?

mikarddo
08-29-2014, 03:47 PM
There are many reasons we've shifted away from Tiered loot in the last few updates. This is not one of them.

Please do explain the reasons. That will make it easier for the playerbase to help suggest alternatives.

Portalcat
08-29-2014, 03:59 PM
Like buying it off the Shard AH? That type of challenge?

There are two sides to this equation.

I can count the number of mythic helms which make sense for my current roster of toons on zero hands. The incentive to run EE for me is, what, exactly?



Being able to trade loot has a couple useful functions. It makes tough content worth running even when you don't need anything from it yourself. It smooths out luck by letting you buy things you need but haven't been lucky enough to pull with the earnings from what you sell with a 30% tax which incentivizes at least trying to pull what you can. It keeps you from having to run the same one particular quest 20-100+ times to get a particular item - curse you, Jack Jibbers and your 6.5min EH invis run!

It makes money for the game in a manner that ultimately incentivizes people to play and challenge themselves as much as possible, which seems like a pretty good way to be doing it - several other MMOs make game time passes into tradeable entities, and the transfer occurring there is not all that different from this one.

For the love of all things, why aren't these items from regular questing tradeable?

slarden
08-29-2014, 04:31 PM
That being said, why does it have to be ONE way? Can't we have all these systems in place and use them situationally?

This makes the absolute most sense. There needs to be decent gear available to players that don't play much such as haunted halls, shroud, festivals, etc.

However, there should also be power gamer gear that is harder to get both from a quest completion standpoint and an item standpoint - sands is an example. When end game is 30 there should be a place to get absolutely amazing loot that is really hard and tiered likely makes sense for that.

As you said, balance is the key. Before U14 balance was really good. A high percentage of the good loot was easy to obtain and then there was eSands and eVon

Vasax
08-29-2014, 05:35 PM
who knew...?

http://s28.postimg.org/fnpqen5tp/vasaxwaterdeep.jpg

Cetus
08-29-2014, 05:51 PM
who knew...?

http://s28.postimg.org/fnpqen5tp/vasaxwaterdeep.jpg

What's the point of posting some random screenshot in a loot thread?


Also - I'm still terribly curious about those reasons devs, as I'm sure others are as well.

Zoda
08-29-2014, 06:55 PM
Please do explain the reasons. That will make it easier for the playerbase to help suggest alternatives.

I'd second that, would be easier to make suggestions and get to a common ground if we knew where the devs are standing.

And I'm really curious as well.

patang01
08-29-2014, 10:37 PM
As much as I'd like to know, I am very skeptical we will get an official reason.

They can say that they did not move away from tiered loot to appease the casual player base, but that is exactly what they did...

That makes no sense. It was for most part the casual players that bought the EE loot from the Shard AH without worrying about playing the content.

patang01
08-29-2014, 10:46 PM
There are two sides to this equation.

I can count the number of mythic helms which make sense for my current roster of toons on zero hands. The incentive to run EE for me is, what, exactly?



Being able to trade loot has a couple useful functions. It makes tough content worth running even when you don't need anything from it yourself. It smooths out luck by letting you buy things you need but haven't been lucky enough to pull with the earnings from what you sell with a 30% tax which incentivizes at least trying to pull what you can. It keeps you from having to run the same one particular quest 20-100+ times to get a particular item - curse you, Jack Jibbers and your 6.5min EH invis run!

It makes money for the game in a manner that ultimately incentivizes people to play and challenge themselves as much as possible, which seems like a pretty good way to be doing it - several other MMOs make game time passes into tradeable entities, and the transfer occurring there is not all that different from this one.

For the love of all things, why aren't these items from regular questing tradeable?

Mythic, no. But lets talk about what was instead of the current loot. Because the Mythic is not worth it. Sure, they're fine helmets but not anything 'mythic' that would want me to grind every single quest over and over on EE.

Sorry. I can't get onboard trading EE loot for shards. Once that started the entire game became a joke. Remember EGH? 1 week after it's release most people were sporting EE and it died down dramatically. Not everyone ran EE, but sure enough you saw tons of people using the gear. The trading absolutely killed the entire grouping scene. Dramatically. You see a glut on the week of launch then nothing. And that's because the trading simply kill any reason for most people to bother with the content. Personally I think trading should be for mats and random loot - not for specifically named items.

I think you're dead wrong. Since the shard AH you seen a clear bleed of the player base, from either moving on from the monetizing of everything to simply having little to no reason playing. Now I'm all for reasonable grinding. My ideal system would have an upgrade version like we see with the augments but for the EH and EE type tiers. With a reasonable chance to pull the EN version as base, then you can work to upgrade (sorta like a simple for of GS, always working towards a goal). And if you run it on EE you can also pull a tier 1 (equal to EH version). Giving an incentive to run the content on EE just to shorten the upgrade path. Again - reasonably easy to get the item then work to upgrade it. That to me is fine. Because the longevity of the game depends on people running content. Shard AH kills the incentive big time.

patang01
08-29-2014, 10:56 PM
Tiered loot is the worst thing they have done for loot in DDO, probably on par with ghostbane and current randgen, but probably worse since most players eventually aim for the named loot, so they can slot a larger variety of stats.

Tiered loot for sale yes, and BTC on equip. Personally it should have been tier up-gradable. Kinda like MOTU and FoT raid loot. A reasonable grind, just like GS. Simple for regular named loot, more complex ala constructing like GS, thunderforged and Alchemical. I like that you can upgrade augments with the E Mcabre loot. That's a nice system. But we'll see about the drop rates.

Takllin
08-29-2014, 11:08 PM
That makes no sense. It was for most part the casual players that bought the EE loot from the Shard AH without worrying about playing the content.

How does it not make sense?

Now the casual players don't need to spend shards to buy those EE items because they can get the same loot on EE as E Norm...Instead of resenting the fact that they had to run EE to get the very best loot, or buy it off the Auction Houses...they can now run the content on EN or EH as they wish and receive the same loot as the EE players...

Even if they do want to spend shards, now they do not have to pay nearly as much because there is only one tier per item...

B0ltdrag0n
08-29-2014, 11:55 PM
How does it not make sense?

Now the casual players don't need to spend shards to buy those EE items because they can get the same loot on EE as E Norm...

Even if they do want to spend shards, now they do not have to pay nearly as much because there is only one tier per item...

Good. Though a upgrade system like FoT i feel is still the best.

patang01
08-30-2014, 01:26 AM
How does it not make sense?

Now the casual players don't need to spend shards to buy those EE items because they can get the same loot on EE as E Norm...Instead of resenting the fact that they had to run EE to get the very best loot, or buy it off the Auction Houses...they can now run the content on EN or EH as they wish and receive the same loot as the EE players...

Even if they do want to spend shards, now they do not have to pay nearly as much because there is only one tier per item...

So what you're explaining is that casual players actually have to play to get the items. Casual players actually have to own the packs. In other words; they have to run content. Unlike before where there was absolutely no motivation to run content more then once. Heck, you didn't even have to own the pack to get the loot. Just wait until someone pulled an EE, and buy it. If the system we have now is moving towards Pre MOTU in regards to named loot I am ALL for it. Who cares if items are BTA - people are forced to at least try to run it. And who cares if it's on EN, EH or EE. As long as people are running the game. Spending time in the game. Buying packs to get the items. Committing time and money into the game. Adding loot that now add some kind of unlocking mechanism is even smarter. Like the augments.

I just can't imagine why you think that selling loot for shards is somehow less preferred for a casual player then having to play content. Own content. And who cares what people own loot wise? Speaking of resentment - how about EE players always arguing that it ain't cool that people that don't play EE content can own EE loot, yet at the same time argue for it being able to be sold. Personally I'd like the Mythic version of good loot which requires EH and EE runs to pull with a LOW (think eardweller) chance on EH and higher on EE. But BTA. Because I still think that other then raid loot the rest should be BTA. And not being able to be sold at all.

EllisDee37
08-30-2014, 01:40 AM
I think the the FOT system was successful as well. Running on EE provided incentive in that you'd bypass a tremendous amount of grind for upgrade mats by just getting the upgraded version right away.

Either of these systems are more desirable than what we're currently getting.Yep, sign me up for the FoT model.

Portalcat
08-30-2014, 04:29 AM
Mythic, no. But lets talk about what was instead of the current loot. Because the Mythic is not worth it. Sure, they're fine helmets but not anything 'mythic' that would want me to grind every single quest over and over on EE.

I bring up Mythic because that appears to be the EE incentive that's being used in U23, due to the 10x EE vs EH droprate.

The problem with that as an incentive, is as you state, the mythic helms are not going to be enough to get most people to go out of their way to farm them.

Now, honestly, I'd say the mythic helms are generally quite good, and seem like they should be best-in-slot for at least some characters, but certainly none of my own. Even if one of them was useful to me, that raises a different problem: that would be a good incentive for me to farm exactly one of the quests, and wouldn't necessarily help me group up with people who needed a different helm from a different quest.


Sorry. I can't get onboard trading EE loot for shards. Once that started the entire game became a joke. Remember EGH? 1 week after it's release most people were sporting EE and it died down dramatically.

Remember 3BC? A week after its release, it died down dramatically. I'm not sure how this is an effect that has anything to do with trading named loot.

...and it leads to an obvious counterexample, which is the staying power of some of the EE GH quests, particularly Tor, but also PoP, Crucible, Trial by Fire, and Maze of Madness: people ran these to farm for valuable loot to sell for at least several updates. Some still farm Tor, because there's still a few things there which are somewhat valuable and not many other quests that have anything you can sell for much on the ASAH.



I think you're dead wrong. Since the shard AH you seen a clear bleed of the player base, from either moving on from the monetizing of everything to simply having little to no reason playing.

Since the release of Druid's Deep, the player base has been declining. Halsaime clearly destroyed the game!

Correlation does not equal causation. There are a lot of reasons that the player base has declined, and the most obvious reason is because the game is 8 years old and getting older, which creates huge headwinds no matter what gets released.



...then you can work to upgrade (sorta like a simple for of GS, always working towards a goal)...

...Shard AH kills the incentive big time.

Only if your idea of fun is to pull out your pocketbook constantly. For the few who do prefer to do that, I'm not sure there's much to be lost by letting them - if they're willing to pay hundreds of dollars to bypass grind, do we really expect them to have seriously undertaken that grind at all?

On the other side of the equation, a vibrant in-game economy gives me a ton of incentive to run content that I wouldn't otherwise need to run, because even if I don't need anything from that content, I can sell it and make progress towards buying the items that I do need. That IS an upgrade path proportional to effort.



Who cares if items are BTA - people are forced to at least try to run it.

I do, because I'm forced to run things which are challenging and difficult to get rare items either way, and being able to trade the items both rewards running a variety of content and provides additional incentives for running content period.


And who cares if it's on EN, EH or EE. As long as people are running the game.

I do. I'd like to be challenged in this game without having to solo or wait long periods of time put together an EE group for just a couple of quests.

It doesn't matter how much build flexibility DDO has, how many different classes you can play, how many different ways you can play the game, if all a good build has to look forward to is nobody to play with unless you drop down to EH and can run around on godmode and all that extra effort doesn't really matter for much.



Committing time and money into the game.

People do this with tradeable loot, and I argue that provides increased incentives to run more quests generally, because it means that there's reason to run quests other than just the ones which have items you specifically need.



I just can't imagine why you think that selling loot for shards is somehow less preferred for a casual player then having to play content.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. In fact, I don't think the casual players who are willing to buy a bunch of loot are likely to be ones who would have extensively played the quests to get it, and I'm not sure why I should buy the notion that someone who is willing to spend inordinate amounts of money on DDO is just going to park their newly decked-out toons rather than spend about as much time in DDO as they would otherwise.

On the other hand, the players selling loot are definitely going to lessen the amount of time they'll play if the loot is BtA, because the fact that they're selling loot means they're running out of other things that they feel are worth spending time on in the game.



Speaking of resentment - how about EE players always arguing that it ain't cool that people that don't play EE content can own EE loot, yet at the same time argue for it being able to be sold.

I don't make this argument, and I don't know any EE players that do. It's a huge straw man to present it as "EE players always".

Wipey
08-30-2014, 06:32 AM
. Remember EGH? 1 week after it's release most people were sporting EE and it died down dramatically. Not everyone ran EE, but sure enough you saw tons of people using the gear. The trading absolutely killed the entire grouping scene. Dramatically. You see a glut on the week of launch then nothing. And that's because the trading simply kill any reason for most people to bother with the content. Personally I think trading should be for mats and random loot - not for specifically named items.

Huh, I would still run Elite Tor or Trial or Maze or even Crucible for chance to get few pieces. More that one year after the release. Many people would do the same if we didn't get uber jump with Ghostbane/Shadowfell era.
Shadowfell OP gear killed GH, not trading.

Toon at cap, doesn't need xp, doesn't need gear, friend asks you what you wanna do.
I don't mind Tor, or Haunted Halls, Mirror or even High Road. Motu stuff ? Tracker Trap, Ranks, 3bc, ewww, I will be grumpy cause I get NOTHING valuable from there. Playing with friends and difficult stuff is reward in itself of course, but little cherry on top - pulling some cool loot is even better.

3bc ? Why the heck would anyone run elite 3bc now. If we are talking "loot reasons".

Wizza
08-30-2014, 06:41 AM
What they should do is divide the current Epic loot in 2 pieces:


Epic Cursed base X item, BTCoA, with some of its enhancements suppressed.
Scroll of X item, UNBOUND.

When you put the Cursed X item + Scroll of X item into the Epic Altar, you get the Epic X item with all of its enhancements unlocked (as we see them now on Live).


Mythic items should be the same.

Epic X item, BTCoA
Mythic Scroll of X item, UNBOUND


So every toon HAVE TO run the quest to get the Epic Cursed X item but then we have Scrolls on the other hand, unbound, that we could buy and sell.

Vellrad
08-30-2014, 07:00 AM
Casual.. lol hahaha. I'm apparently not as 'pro' player as you are.. ( did u sense sarcasm here?) Before you pingeonholed someone for someone's beliefs read with understanding please, signature too. Do you know casual player with toon at 17th life ? Cuz I don't.

Beside attacking someone for someone's beliefs is discrimination.. just saying.

All casuals I know TR as soon as they reach lvl20/28, never touching endgame, so yes, they have lot of lifes done.

Vellrad
08-30-2014, 07:26 AM
At first I didn't liked EN/EH/EE loot, but shortly I realised I was wrong about it.
It was good thing.

I don't like fot upgrade system, because it means you can get EE item doing only EE. Its a good thing in a raid, but for 6 man dungeons it's not.

I'd like to see upgrade system, where each difficulty drops the same base item (EN x% chance, EH 3x% chance, EE 12x% chance), but hard is also golden dropping sigil of upgrade, and elite is dropping platinum sigil of upgrade.
Sigils are the same for each quest pack (so there's high road golden sigil of upgrade dropping at each of 5 EH highroad quests end chests, and druidic platinum sigil of upgrade dropping at each of 4 EE druid's deep quests end chests).
Golden sigils are used to upgrade T1 (aka normal) items to T2 (aka hard) version, and platinum sigils are used to upgrade T1 or T2 items to T3 (aka elite) versions.

Takllin
08-30-2014, 09:12 AM
So what you're explaining is that casual players actually have to play to get the items. Casual players actually have to own the packs. In other words; they have to run content. Unlike before where there was absolutely no motivation to run content more then once. Heck, you didn't even have to own the pack to get the loot. Just wait until someone pulled an EE, and buy it. If the system we have now is moving towards Pre MOTU in regards to named loot I am ALL for it. Who cares if items are BTA - people are forced to at least try to run it. And who cares if it's on EN, EH or EE. As long as people are running the game. Spending time in the game. Buying packs to get the items. Committing time and money into the game. Adding loot that now add some kind of unlocking mechanism is even smarter. Like the augments.

I just can't imagine why you think that selling loot for shards is somehow less preferred for a casual player then having to play content. Own content. And who cares what people own loot wise? Speaking of resentment - how about EE players always arguing that it ain't cool that people that don't play EE content can own EE loot, yet at the same time argue for it being able to be sold. Personally I'd like the Mythic version of good loot which requires EH and EE runs to pull with a LOW (think eardweller) chance on EH and higher on EE. But BTA. Because I still think that other then raid loot the rest should be BTA. And not being able to be sold at all.

I think you are misunderstanding some things. I never said that casual players have to play the game to get the items.

Firstly, what is the point of having the best loot, if you don't want to play the game? That doesn't make a bit of a sense. Casual players are still playing the game, but most cannot do EE because they lack the skill to do so. Unbound tiered loot, and unbound loot with no tier makes no difference in terms of being able to buy them, except that loot without tiers is cheaper, because there is more of it. Instead of having EN/EH/EE versions.

I mean this is a game right? The point is to actually play the game, not just sit there with all the best loot in your inventory and stare at the pixels on the screen. Casual players are playing the content, they do buy the packs, but they lack the skill to complete them on EE, so the only option previously was to either ride on better players coat tails, or buy the loot from the Auction House. Without tiered loot, they can now run it on any difficulty they choose and still get the same loot as if they were running EE.

I am not saying one method is preferred over another, I am just saying that this loot without tiers is much more favorable to casual players, because if they want to actually play the game, and run the content, to get the best loot, they don't have to run it on Epic Elite anymore. They can run it on Epic Normal or Epic Hard.

Also, no one is talking about being able to sell the EE loot...

Zoda
08-30-2014, 10:19 AM
Most people I'm running with know that I'm a major fanboy of the alchemical crafting system and the Vaults of Artificers update in general. Here is my list why I think that update was amazing:

-contained BTA easy to get loot for everyone, some of them were useful to vets (propulsion boots still is, fabricator set seen use), but they were all definitely great for casuals (and I still use some while tring)
-contained a great crafting system that had all unbound, BTA and BTC elements, meaning that the pack was represented on the market (energy cells and blanks), you had to bring the toon to the raid to get your items (spirits), but you didn't necessarily had to farm it on a toon that was at a disadvantage in the raids (binding fragments were BTA)
-it had a minor upgrade for power gamers that was only available on the highest difficulty (the 3rd tier upgrade was the smallest power upgrade on those items, but it was still nice)
-old epic LOB in its day is still the best challange DDO had (at least since I started playing), required a strategy more complicated than making a monk archer running backwards and shooting stuff, which is the trend for the past year at least
-the challange pack had great items (stalker ring, spare hand, lore stuff for casters etc), they were all acquirable for both casuals and power gamers, only difference was the the time it took (and it might have taken 10 times longer to casuals, but if they were persistent they could get it), as a bonus I used to love those challanges

All in all I think that was the best designed pack till date in every aspect: loot was great, the distribution of the loot was amazing, given everyone something they wanted, it provided the best challange for players looking for one, and yield reward for those good enough to beat it. It also had longevity, unlike stuff like Haunted Halls or 3BC.

Now I'm not asking for all this for u23, I'm just saying that devs already proven in the past that they can make everyone happy at the same time, and U11 should be a great starting point for future pack design.

EllisDee37
08-30-2014, 12:59 PM
I'd like to see upgrade system, where each difficulty drops the same base item (EN x% chance, EH 3x% chance, EE 12x% chance), but hard is also golden dropping sigil of upgrade, and elite is dropping platinum sigil of upgrade.
Sigils are the same for each quest pack (so there's high road golden sigil of upgrade dropping at each of 5 EH highroad quests end chests, and druidic platinum sigil of upgrade dropping at each of 4 EE druid's deep quests end chests).
Golden sigils are used to upgrade T1 (aka normal) items to T2 (aka hard) version, and platinum sigils are used to upgrade T1 or T2 items to T3 (aka elite) versions.This sounds vaguely reminiscent of alchemical crafting, in that you have to run multiple different difficulties to upgrade each item. This is a poor mechanic in general by virtue of making grouping more complicated/difficult. Anything that does that is bad, IMO.

Guild raid starts forming: "I need hard." "I need elite." Someone is SOL.

Cetus
08-30-2014, 01:31 PM
Any system that doesn't contain some kind of exclusive benefit from running EE isn't one that I'd support. There needs to be something you can get on EE that exists nowhere else. This will keep people of all calibers interested in the EE version of the challenge.

This is blatantly simple.

Really - I don't remember the swarm of overwhelmingly disappointed casual players when EGH was epiced. Please, show me the threads if you think otherwise.

Zoda
08-30-2014, 02:20 PM
This sounds vaguely reminiscent of alchemical crafting, in that you have to run multiple different difficulties to upgrade each item. This is a poor mechanic in general by virtue of making grouping more complicated/difficult. Anything that does that is bad, IMO.

Guild raid starts forming: "I need hard." "I need elite." Someone is SOL.

It was so easy for our guild those days... Guild raid is epic, no questions asked. Rest can be done individually pugged or in smaller unorganized guild runs, whatever, not an issue. I remember when we had to split the guild into two groups sometimes because we didn't fit in one... Good old days.

Nightmanis
08-30-2014, 04:49 PM
This sounds vaguely reminiscent of alchemical crafting, in that you have to run multiple different difficulties to upgrade each item. This is a poor mechanic in general by virtue of making grouping more complicated/difficult. Anything that does that is bad, IMO.

Guild raid starts forming: "I need hard." "I need elite." Someone is SOL.

You could solve this relatively easily

Norm: 10% chance at ingredients for tier 1. No chance for tier 2 or tier 3.

Hard: 15% chance at ingredients for tier 1, 5% chance for ingredients for tier 2. No chance for tier 3.

Elite 20% Chance at ingredients for tier 1, 10% chance for ingredients at tier 2, 5% chance at ingredients for tier 3.

One thing Zoda pointed out is that tier 3 of the alchemical really wasn't all that powerful. It was just some minor AOE damage, and a red slot. Back then slots weren't as impressive, only used for DR breaking.

But you only got tier 3 from running Epic Lord of Blades. The "Wow" factor of that one achievement was enough incentive to go for it.

Honestly they need to do stuff like the old Shroud system. Ingredients dropped in the raid, but weren't bound so they could be traded. But you still had to run the raid to get the shards, because they were BTC. Then you also had to run the flagging quests to get the ingredients to make the base item itself.

Not even counting the actual effects (Thunderforged, Greensteel and Alchemical all have great effects with greensteel having the largest diversity obviously) if they simply implemented a crafting system combining everything I stated (Greensteel and alchemical) with some properly good designs (absolutely love the increasing min level of alchemical and thunderforged) and you would have a system that would outlast even greensteel.

Thinking of the increasing minimum levels. Make an item with the same drop rate as the yellow dopant (and not sold in the store) that would allow the weapon to be 1 tier lower for the minimum level. Same drop rate as the yellow dopant, available in all difficulties. Only can be used once on an item, doesn't go into a bag, can only affect a weapon once. So you could have a tier 3 weapon with the minimum level of a tier 2 weapon. This gives incentives to even the casuals since it's available on all difficulties, and makes the items better for TRing.. Maybe even make the tier 1 available 1 level sooner.

Vellrad
08-30-2014, 08:15 PM
This sounds vaguely reminiscent of alchemical crafting, in that you have to run multiple different difficulties to upgrade each item. This is a poor mechanic in general by virtue of making grouping more complicated/difficult. Anything that does that is bad, IMO.

Guild raid starts forming: "I need hard." "I need elite." Someone is SOL.

Why?
With my proposal base item drops at all levels with better chance at elite, and you can upgrade base item right away with elite sigil without running hard at all.
This would mean, you run hard only if you can't handle elite and get T2 upgrade. If you can handle elite, you don't need hard at all, as you can loot T3 upgrade right away and apply it to base item.

Poor mechanic is the one allowing top version item to be gotten from farming normal over and over.
It might work with raid because of timer or bypass, but on normal 6 man dungeons, you shouldn't be allowed to zerg norm/hard to get the same item you get for crawling through elite. With my idea, you must run elite if you wish to have the best item, but hard is not required at all, unless you simply can't complete EE.

SirValentine
08-31-2014, 07:21 AM
This sounds vaguely reminiscent of alchemical crafting, in that you have to run multiple different difficulties to upgrade each item. This is a poor mechanic in general by virtue of making grouping more complicated/difficult. Anything that does that is bad, IMO.

Guild raid starts forming: "I need hard." "I need elite." Someone is SOL.

The problem exists, but it's not from how the crafting itself works, it's how the difficulties drop the ingredients.



You could solve this relatively easily

Norm: 10% chance at ingredients for tier 1. No chance for tier 2 or tier 3.

Hard: 15% chance at ingredients for tier 1, 5% chance for ingredients for tier 2. No chance for tier 3.

Elite 20% Chance at ingredients for tier 1, 10% chance for ingredients at tier 2, 5% chance at ingredients for tier 3.


Not endorsing those specific numbers, but something along those lines really is needed.

You should never get WORSE rewards from doing a harder difficulty. Getting only Tier 2 when you need Tier 1, which can happen now, is "worse rewards". And the current situation with Epic difficulties is even more ridiculous, with Tier 3 Spirits ONLY dropping on Normal, never on Hard or Elite.

I doubt it's high on the dev priority list, but LoB rewards need serious overhauling.

JOTMON
08-31-2014, 08:35 AM
The problem exists, but it's not from how the crafting itself works, it's how the difficulties drop the ingredients.



Not endorsing those specific numbers, but something along those lines really is needed.

You should never get WORSE rewards from doing a harder difficulty. Getting only Tier 2 when you need Tier 1, which can happen now, is "worse rewards". And the current situation with Epic difficulties is even more ridiculous, with Tier 3 Spirits ONLY dropping on Normal, never on Hard or Elite.

I doubt it's high on the dev priority list, but LoB rewards need serious overhauling.


This is part of what I felt made the Shroud mechanic successful..
The further you got into the raid, the better the loot got.
The lower tier items were accessible and craftable while heading towards the next stages.

Making Tier 1, available in EN, T1,T2 available in EH, T1,T2,T3 available in EE gives reason to push to run harder content
Just keep adding a chest for each tier of difficulty.

EllisDee37
08-31-2014, 02:43 PM
Why?
With my proposal base item drops at all levels with better chance at elite, and you can upgrade base item right away with elite sigil without running hard at all.Sloppy reading on my part. I withdraw my objection. (But I still feel that the alchemical system is a bad one.)

General_Gronker
09-01-2014, 03:46 AM
The likes of gianthold and high road were visited ad nauseum in order to acquire the different levels of treasure. Cite please. Because no one I know ever did this. I never saw an LFM for this. No one I grouped with did this. People hit eH or eE depending on their proclivities regardless of the loot. And they hit over and over again for the daily playthrough bonus. And then usually once more until the next day.


Return the tiered loot system, please. Everybody wins.No, everybody doesn't win because it was a crappy system.

Unbind things and make them upgradeable via commendations and collectibles (the ones we already have), without changing the minimum levels. Then maybe you can make a workable system.

Vellrad
09-01-2014, 09:39 AM
Unbind things and make them upgradeable via commendations and collectibles (the ones we already have), without changing the minimum levels. Then maybe you can make a workable system.

So farm everything on eN?
No thanks, that's fail of a system.

Cetus
09-01-2014, 01:54 PM
Cite please. Because no one I know ever did this. I never saw an LFM for this. No one I grouped with did this. People hit eH or eE depending on their proclivities regardless of the loot. And they hit over and over again for the daily playthrough bonus. And then usually once more until the next day.

No, everybody doesn't win because it was a crappy system.

Unbind things and make them upgradeable via commendations and collectibles (the ones we already have), without changing the minimum levels. Then maybe you can make a workable system.

So you're saying that everyone you knew ran the content?

Good, we're on the same page then.

Who do you know that runs haunted halls or three barrel cove consistently lately?

Hand waving the importance of loot as an incentive to run content is simply inaccurate. Look at how many runs of TOD we did to get our set bonuses, how many runs of EV6 to get our sos's, how many runs of ADQ to get marilith chains and chaosblades.

Look at epic red fens when THAT came out - we lived out there to get our claw sets, fought that hezrou nearly every day to hunt for shards.

Just stop it

EllisDee37
09-01-2014, 02:20 PM
Look at how many runs of TOD we did to get our set bonusesProbably not the best example to use when arguing for tiered loot.

Cetus
09-01-2014, 02:43 PM
Probably not the best example to use when arguing for tiered loot.

Except i wasn't arguing for tiered loot in that response, reading is useful.

There are two separate topics here: A) Loot as an incentive to run content b) tiered loot as an incentive to run the same content on harder difficulty settings

My comment was in support of A.

Purkilius
09-01-2014, 03:03 PM
Except i wasn't arguing for tiered loot in that response, reading is useful.

There are two separate topics here: A) Loot as an incentive to run content b) tiered loot as an incentive to run the same content on harder difficulty settings

My comment was in support of A.

It is a very valid argument imo 1 of my best memories from DDO was when I got my KotC ring on Christmas day few years ago :) (guess he will see some use again soon).

I miss the fact that items are not made to be apart of a set bonus any longer and that would be a huge incentive for me at least!

Purkilius
09-01-2014, 03:18 PM
Most people I'm running with know that I'm a major fanboy of the alchemical crafting system and the Vaults of Artificers update in general. Here is my list why I think that update was amazing:

-contained BTA easy to get loot for everyone, some of them were useful to vets (propulsion boots still is, fabricator set seen use), but they were all definitely great for casuals (and I still use some while tring)
-contained a great crafting system that had all unbound, BTA and BTC elements, meaning that the pack was represented on the market (energy cells and blanks), you had to bring the toon to the raid to get your items (spirits), but you didn't necessarily had to farm it on a toon that was at a disadvantage in the raids (binding fragments were BTA)
-it had a minor upgrade for power gamers that was only available on the highest difficulty (the 3rd tier upgrade was the smallest power upgrade on those items, but it was still nice)
-old epic LOB in its day is still the best challange DDO had (at least since I started playing), required a strategy more complicated than making a monk archer running backwards and shooting stuff, which is the trend for the past year at least
-the challange pack had great items (stalker ring, spare hand, lore stuff for casters etc), they were all acquirable for both casuals and power gamers, only difference was the the time it took (and it might have taken 10 times longer to casuals, but if they were persistent they could get it), as a bonus I used to love those challanges

All in all I think that was the best designed pack till date in every aspect: loot was great, the distribution of the loot was amazing, given everyone something they wanted, it provided the best challange for players looking for one, and yield reward for those good enough to beat it. It also had longevity, unlike stuff like Haunted Halls or 3BC.

Now I'm not asking for all this for u23, I'm just saying that devs already proven in the past that they can make everyone happy at the same time, and U11 should be a great starting point for future pack design.

Agreed I still do the challenges when I want a certain item for a certain build but rarely flag for MA or LoB anymore...

Zoda
09-01-2014, 03:23 PM
Agreed I still do the challenges when I want a certain item for a certain build but rarely flag for MA or LoB anymore...

Last time I did something on the live server was LOB flagging, can't hurt to get some mats for a shield in case if vanguard tree will be any good :) (although I still have an air/air/earth towershield left over from the old days)

Nightmanis
09-01-2014, 03:35 PM
The problem exists, but it's not from how the crafting itself works, it's how the difficulties drop the ingredients.



Not endorsing those specific numbers, but something along those lines really is needed.

You should never get WORSE rewards from doing a harder difficulty. Getting only Tier 2 when you need Tier 1, which can happen now, is "worse rewards". And the current situation with Epic difficulties is even more ridiculous, with Tier 3 Spirits ONLY dropping on Normal, never on Hard or Elite.

I doubt it's high on the dev priority list, but LoB rewards need serious overhauling.

The numbers could obviously be changed, but depending on the ingredients list for the different items (say shroud style) you're looking on EE at a 20% chance of getting 1-2 of the single ingredient from a list of 5 different ingredients. That's where you could adjust which one is more predominant vs adjusting the actual drop rates.

What's more interesting, if you have a 5% chance at an EE ingredient and one of the 5 ingredients has a 5% chance at dropping vs the other 4, you boost the economy because that one ingredient now takes longer to farm out for the required amount.

Then you fix that damn bag bug for infinite ingredients and we'll have a working economy again.

EllisDee37
09-01-2014, 04:21 PM
Except i wasn't arguing for tiered loot in that response, reading is useful.

There are two separate topics here: A) Loot as an incentive to run content b) tiered loot as an incentive to run the same content on harder difficulty settings

My comment was in support of A.So you're arguing against BtCoE loot?

Cetus
09-01-2014, 04:47 PM
So you're arguing against BtCoE loot?

Lol

I was actually arguing for horse mounts

You couldn't tell?