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Arkantios
08-22-2014, 12:50 PM
Hey guys, so as most of us know, rogues have been set at a bit of a decline for quite a while, dps, assassinate, and some other stuff. I've been playing one myself for roughly 3 years or so and it's still my favorite class. If I want to play one, it's going to be a pure 20 assassin. Sadly we hardly ever see them anymore because it's basically just a flavor build. The assassinate DC is ridiculously hard to get viable for the hardest content and people usually just splash 1-2 rogue for the evasion/trapping.

There are tons of other things to rant about with rogues, especially with the new twf "proxy nerf". Well, plus the fact that a 14-15 Rog/5-6 Bard can assassinate things better than a pure one can. Thing is, I want to hear what you guys think about rogues, pure or not. Acrobat, Assassin, Mechanic. Tell me everything. What's wrong with it, whats awesome, what should stay and go, what you guys think should be changed and what it should be changed to. Absolutely everything

I'm going to make a report of all the feedback I get on this because I believe that rogues really need some loving and nobody is doing anything about it. Everything from random thoughts to heartfelt confessions are needed. If anyone can give actual damage data and whatnot that would be amazing. Twf/swf/heck even thf rogue data would be awesome. This report I'm making will hopefully be shot up a few ladders.

Show your love for rogues, lets steal back that throne that has always belonged to us.

LuKaSu
08-22-2014, 01:42 PM
This probably won't be a common response, but at least for me, I stopped liking my rogue around when they did the last armor pass. Before that point, I felt that my Dwarven Rogue/Fighter was really fun. After that, he just felt... a lot more squishy. When I saw that my rogue was more squishy, while at the same time, feeling out-dps'd by heavier classes, rogues, for me, became a splash class.

I've got a pure rogue that I keep picking up every week or two, hoping that he will be fun, but he just isn't as much fun as he used to. He's only level 12, but even with being half way there, I don't have the desire to stick with him long enough to get him to 20 to TR him into something else. I expect to reroll him, instead, within the next couple weeks.

hp1055cm
08-22-2014, 02:16 PM
I don't see any problem with Rogues as is, especially when you consider they are so versatile. Evasion, Improved Evasion, High skill points, UMD, Locks and traps, decent melee ability, hide and sneak... what is not to like? Maybe the HP is a little low but there are ways to compensate for that. Splash Rogues are quite popular and keeping a few skills maxed doesn't require taking many Rogue levels.
As for the Assassin types I can't really say since I haven't ever tried that flavor.

What I hear you saying is that you want a pure Rogue to have the same potential benefit as a multi-class rogue so you can stay pure but not feel inferior in any way to other partial-rogues? Am I right?

Chai
08-22-2014, 02:21 PM
DC inflation shot up more quickly than assassins could add DC. While this isn't crippling in and of itself as of yet, its getting to the point where another iteration of saves inflation will make it an unrealistic uphill battle.

The stealth system where mobs just have a red eye appear over their heads arbitrarily saying they detect you needs to go. I want to see the character sheet with the breakdown of how this fighter mob has the 100+ spot/listen skill needed to see me.

The trap system is much improved, and rogues can make CC type traps which work in EE.

Arkantios
08-22-2014, 02:30 PM
What I hear you saying is that you want a pure Rogue to have the same potential benefit as a multi-class rogue so you can stay pure but not feel inferior in any way to other partial-rogues? Am I right?

Partially. For instance a pure assassin rogue shouldnt only have a few more d6 SA than a deep splash one. It doesn't really stop there though. I personally dont really play mechs but ive heard complaints about about them as well as just the rogue class in general. I understand that rogue has the versatility. That is a complete given. I've built a pure rogue that could pull raid boss aggro off a pali tank, and hold it from the rest of the party, even with monkchers and whatnot. I understand that how much they actually can do. Comparing them is where they start to lack.

Bards in this last update basically cast the rogues away. Besides the sneak attack a bard can do mostly everything a rogue can and better. They get evasion if they go pure and take the swash capstone I believe. If they want to splash, which is normally recommended, they can splash 2 rogue for traps and evasion possibly, maybe fighter or other things, and not lose much. Rogues can heal with scrolls, bards with quite a few spells and spell power. Rogues can do tons of damage from SA and the multiple weapons they use, if you're a bard and swashing you kick the hell out of the rogues dps basically. *This is considering two highly skilled and geared builds*. Bards also get all sorts of spells over rogues, songs, stunning abilities, etc. And yes I realize that rogues can UMD stuff, but in personally am not fond of using a 30 second scroll. Also yes, gs is an option for displacement, but not needed with bard.

So to asking for more as a pure than a splash, I suppose yeah. Yet, it makes sense to do so, even if that isnt the main thing to be done. Rogues need a boost in general. Not just to assassins, mechs, or acrobats. Not just to splashes, and not just to pures.

Arkantios
08-22-2014, 02:44 PM
DC inflation shot up more quickly than assassins could add DC. While this isn't crippling in and of itself as of yet, its getting to the point where another iteration of saves inflation will make it an unrealistic uphill battle.

The stealth system where mobs just have a red eye appear over their heads arbitrarily saying they detect you needs to go. I want to see the character sheet with the breakdown of how this fighter mob has the 100+ spot/listen skill needed to see me.

The trap system is much improved, and rogues can make CC type traps which work in EE.

See these are exactly the things I'm talking about. I love seeing these. The trap system drastically got improved, yeah the dc thing has always been a problem, and the stealth system is a little wacky. Especially so when we were able to jump, that still weirds me out.

Hafeal
08-22-2014, 02:53 PM
My triple life pure Rogue Assassin is one of my favorite characters. He is my main for our 5 year static group.

Granted he is x3 life, Shadur-Kai.

I have little difficulty on EH or lower dishing massive DPS and killing enemy casters fast. I had little trouble in my other lives. Certainly gear helps, as does better knowledge of the game and its mechanics.

EE is challenging - as it is supposed to be. If you get into trouble, death is a real possibility - as it is for anyone. You have to make careful decisions - but - it is still easy to be effective. EE, to me, means you probably will not be as effective as you want until, in fact, you have several past lives. Don't zerg EE like EH or any other lower setting, THAT is what I see as being the typical recipe for disaster.

Arkantios
08-22-2014, 03:00 PM
My triple life pure Rogue Assassin is one of my favorite characters. He is my main for our 5 year static group.

Granted he is x3 life, Shadur-Kai.

I have little difficulty on EH or lower dishing massive DPS and killing enemy casters fast. I had little trouble in my other lives. Certainly gear helps, as does better knowledge of the game and its mechanics.

EE is challenging - as it is supposed to be. If you get into trouble, death is a real possibility - as it is for anyone. You have to make careful decisions - but - it is still easy to be effective. EE, to me, means you probably will not be as effective as you want until, in fact, you have several past lives. Don't zerg EE like EH or any other lower setting, THAT is what I see as being the typical recipe for disaster.

Yep, knowledge of mechanics insanely helps with rogues. Knowing distances for certain attacks, assassinate for instance in being able to hit multiple targets at once. Even if they are on completely opposite sides of you.

Arkantios
08-22-2014, 03:06 PM
Posting this for my friend since this site apparently hates him.

(Tell): Bladefirez tells you, 'been playing ddo for about 6 years now, i was a total noob for the first 2 years cuz of life and played on and off... but the next 4 years, all my toons have a splash of rogue 2 for trapping'

(Tell): Bladefirez tells you, 'i rarely got a rogue to lvl 20 xD, my highest is lvl 12 and i hated assassin'

(Tell): Bladefirez tells you, 'another immprovement, hopefully, is the ability of a mechanic to manufacture bolts via trap parts since they dont have magical properties like arti'

Arkantios
08-22-2014, 03:38 PM
Posting this from another thread


Please add assassin to the list of unplayable classes in DDO. After 3 years I was excited to finally reach 3x completionist and settle down with my DC 74 Drow assassin. You can search my prior posts stating how much fun I have had playing a rogue in DDO. Sadly, an entire prestige class has been ruined for no reason other than poor game design.

On assassinate, any surviving mobs now instantly see you. While this might seem like "realism", it makes this class unplayable, because there is no way to be unseen until all mobs are killed. The premier assassin ability is now a joke.

TWF is now unusable because you don't even get 2 attempts at assassinate (they see you after attempt 1). Double kills are gone. You are no longer hidden after a successful assassinate.

Congratulations on making the only class that relied on melee positioning, understanding of mob movement, player movement, tactical decisions, and making it a heaping pile of dung. Assassins rely on remaining unseen and this is no longer possible. This used to be one of the most challenging and fun classes to play in DDO. Assassin is now a terrible version of every other melee fighter.

If you are thinking about trying out an assassin, DON'T! It now ranks below barbarian in playability.

In an attempt to change aggro to ranged toons, dev's ruined an entire prestige class...

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE THIS BAD AT GAME DESIGN?

Arkantios
08-22-2014, 03:52 PM
Post from another thread.


Move assassinate enhancement to lvl 12 core.

Move Measure the foe to tier 4.

Move Execute to tier 5 and change "assassinate melee attack" to "melee or ranged attack" and add: When living target is helpless kills instantly.

Add new Tier 5 enhancement - Student of anatomy: You get Intelligence to Damage with melee weapon attacks

That would be pretty balanced post update 22 game in my opinion.

nokowi
08-22-2014, 04:07 PM
Hey guys, so as most of us know, rogues have been set at a bit of a decline for quite a while, dps, assassinate, and some other stuff. I've been playing one myself for roughly 3 years or so and it's still my favorite class. If I want to play one, it's going to be a pure 20 assassin. Sadly we hardly ever see them anymore because it's basically just a flavor build. The assassinate DC is ridiculously hard to get viable for the hardest content and people usually just splash 1-2 rogue for the evasion/trapping.

There are tons of other things to rant about with rogues, especially with the new twf "proxy nerf". Well, plus the fact that a 14-15 Rog/5-6 Bard can assassinate things better than a pure one can. Thing is, I want to hear what you guys think about rogues, pure or not. Acrobat, Assassin, Mechanic. Tell me everything. What's wrong with it, whats awesome, what should stay and go, what you guys think should be changed and what it should be changed to. Absolutely everything

I'm going to make a report of all the feedback I get on this because I believe that rogues really need some loving and nobody is doing anything about it. Everything from random thoughts to heartfelt confessions are needed. If anyone can give actual damage data and whatnot that would be amazing. Twf/swf/heck even thf rogue data would be awesome. This report I'm making will hopefully be shot up a few ladders.

Show your love for rogues, lets steal back that throne that has always belonged to us.

The specific issues with assassin are
1. It requires too much effort in build and play skill for the average DDO player
2. bugged agro system as of U22
3. bugged assasssinate ability (~10% error rate with a 100% success DC)
4. DC's are fine for most DDO content (74 max). Exceptions include EE Stormhorms and EH/EE FTP raid.
5. using TWF on moving targets is a miss-fest.

I would like to see assassin remain a niche class for the truly skilled with weaknesses that offset the power of the class.
I would like to see the U22 assassin bugs fixed quickly. You can see most of them here http://youtu.be/L26aUlKgchc
I would like assassin DC's to be balanced only with the new equipment that is released with new content. If assassins need a +10 assassinate item for new content, make this available/usable only at max level with new content. Current content (while leveling) should remain challenging for an assassin.
Please, please, please, no easy buttons.

The acrobat/mechanic builds probably need their own set of love to remain viable. Useful elemental traps would go a long way towards the mechanic tree viable. Someone with 40 pts in the mechanic tree should be 3-4x better at trap damage than someone with 8 points in the tree.

Suggestions:
Each point spent in the mechanic tree adds 10% to elemental trap damage. Base elemental trap damage may need a boost as well.

FAQ
08-22-2014, 04:11 PM
I am currently playing my rogue life as a pure 20 shadar-kai assassin and it's been a blast. I don't play EE so I can say anything about DC viability, but I believe rogues deserve a little more love.

Arkantios
08-22-2014, 04:20 PM
I would like to see assassin remain a niche class for the truly skilled with weaknesses that offset the power of the class.
I would like to see the U22 assassin bugs fixed quickly. You can see most of them here http://youtu.be/L26aUlKgchc
I would like assassin DC's to be balanced only with the new equipment that is released with new content. If assassins need a +10 assassinate item for new content, make this available/usable only at max level with new content. Current content (while leveling) should remain challenging for an assassin.
Please, please, please, no easy buttons.



The bolded parts are the most important. I absolutely love that it's a hard class to play. It should stay that way regardless of what changes are applied. Especially with the second bold part. Please no easy buttons.

Arkantios
08-22-2014, 04:24 PM
Please don't turn rogue into bard (no weaknesses). As annoyed as I am at the implementation of bard, making rogue an easy button would make me leave DDO forever. Rogues need to have unique strengths and unique weaknesses.


Also this. Just restated.

TheLegendOfAra
08-22-2014, 09:17 PM
For the longest time I always wanted to make a pure 20 Drow Rogue Assassin, max stealth, high assassinate DC, the works.

I have given up on trying this in the current game for the following reasons:

1. Almost all the high-end endgame content is filled with undead. Most bosses for the current raids being run are undead.
2. Bugged stealth system means making a solo friendly assassin that relies on stealth doesn't work correctly and isn't worth the effort.
3. Assassinate DC is really hard to reach on anything other than a full blown assassin fanatic.

It would take lives worth of farming for the correct gear.
It would take at least 6 past lives to get a decent assassinate DC for endgame EE content.


Assassins lose their use in a game where everyone else is a maxed DPS/instakill machine. You're reduced to just a subpar DPS machine who can use instakills occasionally when everyone around is doing those jobs much better than you. Stealth also loses its meaning in a game were you know what is coming 99% of the time. What is the point of stealthing in a party when you KNOW what's coming? When you KNOW where and when the mobs will spawn, how many there will be, and what they will be capable of.

This to me means that this type of Rogue becomes a solo class, which I am personally okay with for a life or two, but it seems an almost toxic idea for a class in an MMO.

All in all, Assassin rogues are delegated to being flavor builds, or solo builds. Which is not bad in and of itself, but in the current game are not the most ideal.

That being said I LOVE Acrobat builds, and mechanics suffer from the same issue every other build that uses Xbows does. They're just not powerful enough at endgame, and they lack the spells/buffs that artis get. But both of these lend themselves to splash builds, and being pure on them is pretty pointless at endgame but is okay for regular pastlives.

Nightmanis
08-23-2014, 12:15 AM
Mechanics could use the help in the ammo department (I've never seen one without 2 article) and possibly making their grenades benefit from ranged power when it's implemented. Also make trap making actually useful, then we'll worry about any other benefits share between them and artificer.

Acrobat though, I very seriously doubt anything needs to be done about them. They're a conglomeration of awesome abilities: +15% stacking attack speed with staves, knockdown immunity, glancing blows were fixed on them last I knew, monster crit improvement, and now glancing blows will work while moving? Add the huge amount of sneak damage, and you could get by with a 17 rogue 2 monk 1 cleric build through any and all content. Even without sireth, it's still a great prestige.

Assassins are the problem. That whole tree looks like it should be so promising, and so powerful if you're willing to put in the investment. But with the current sneak problems and insane dc's needed to even be useful it's just killed off so stick. I've got an unarmed rogue build in dread for combat brute+no mercy, and I have no use of anything in assassin unless I decide I desperately want killer. There is no tier 5 worth taking.

Erofen
08-23-2014, 12:37 AM
Yes rogues do need some love. That repost for the change to assassin tree looks nice but imo it needs more than that. I even dropped the assassinate enhancement completely to get some more defenses with defensive roll 50% health, because without past lives and uber intelligence the dc just sucks. The fact that bards can assassinate better than assassins annoys me... Who needs clickies and scroll heals/marks when you can be a bard with those buff spells that last longer, built in heals, and a no fail assassinate dc if you put the slightest amount of effort into getting a cha and perform item. Don't get me started on twf while running and it being the only weapon style not getting upgraded. Please devs this needs a revamp.

rasend
08-23-2014, 08:34 AM
...It would take at least 6 past lives to get a decent assassinate DC for endgame EE content...

Which past life increases assassinate DC?

Raoull
08-23-2014, 09:26 AM
Pure classes, other than (some) caster classes, are simply not ideal. Other than that, Rogues are still quite good. I agree that Assassinate could use some love, and Bards having a way better assassinate than assassins is ludicrous... but that doesn't make Rogues bad.

I play 2 right now.

My 12 Rogue / 6 Ranger / 2 Pal is a survivable DPSer with good utility. Against fleshy stuff, his crit profile (Knife spec) and sneak damage is very good. (It is OK against other things, just not as good.) UMD, Improved Evasion, Furyshot, Adrenaline & Balanced attacks for CC.... I really like him as a melee. But, as a strength based rogue... his trapping skills are not ideal. I have enough gear that they're solid, and he's even OK for most EE stuff, but the top tier EEs such as Haunted Halls give him issues.

For DPS toons, Assassin is a very good tree. You can't compare it to swashbuckler.... since that's just stupidly good, but it is possibly second to that one. Dagger crit range and Killer are exceptional. I haven't played much with barbarians, but Assassin is better as a melee enhancement tree than tempest, kensai, and KotC for sure.


Now I also have an Xbow rogue to replace him. Originally I was going pure rogue to mix assassinate with Xbow (max int Sun Elf build), but I found the Xbow dps was sufficiently good... and assassinate sufficiently unwieldy.... that when I LR'ed out the cleric level I went with a 16/2/2 build with ranger and Artie splashed. Artie gives runarms and summon bolts (although with dennith bolts, it was actually fine, especially with the guild ship merchant), ranger gives some tempest defense and more sneak range, and both free up a feat. Improved Precise shot is awesome with trash, and between Mechanic, Sun Elf core and DWS he has a 35m "point blank" range. At level 25 I'm contemplating playing with the Slaying arrow / Adrenaline combo.... from my testing it is theoretically possible. AP expeditures would be nuts, with a ton wasted in AA since most abilities don't work on bolts.... but for thousands of damage per burst, it seems worth trying.....

I need to start playing with making my own traps though. Reading the wiki it implied that the DCs for anything except the (rather sad) damage ones were horrible, although reading this makes me think that needs testing. As a trapper, max int rogue is incredible. In EH stuff he usually doesn't even need to put on his disable gloves.


It seems to me your worries are just based on the silly boosting of musicians into combat gods. Outside of that tree, Assassins have the best crit mod, the best doublestrike, the best instakill (ok... Quivering Palm is a joke now).... And for that matter, Acrobat is also a very solid tree. Mechanic could use some love, but most classes would love 2 solid trees.

FranOhmsford
08-23-2014, 10:26 AM
I remember well when EVERY capped Rogue was an Assassin and anyone NOT playing an Assassin was called a Gimp!

So I was very happy with the Devs looking at fixing Acrobat and Mechanic.

HOWEVER: I have NOT been pleased with the Results!


What the Devs did was make Acrobat and Mechanic into half of a Multiclass with Monk and Artificer respectively!

And of course nerfed Assassin while they were at it with DC changes!


I HATE that we're now given Bonuses to Great X-Bows that are essentially useless whether we want those bonuses or not!
I HATE that we have to take a completely useless Dagger or Stick Enhancement to get to the stuff we want in Acrobat or Assassin!
Each Rogue Pre is predicated on a different weapon type and they DON'T go together!
EVERY Rogue is going to want at least one of the Enhancements from Mechanic YET Who in the world is going to pick up a Great X-Bow instead of a Longbow or Shortbow or Shuriken with such a small benefit?

Light Repeaters SHOULD have been at Enhancement 1 for Mechs! - Look we're going to take at least 2 Arti Levels anyway {Probably 6 for Flame Turret!}.
Why make Lvl 1 such a Pain for this ONE build? - We take the Rogue Level FIRST! {And no Lvl 1 on a TRd Rogue is NOT fun!}.

Knife in the Darkness is utterly useless to and basically an Enhancement tax for Acrobats and Mechs who want to take any Tier 1 Enhancement {say Sneak Attack Training} from Assassin!

Staff Control = Ditto for Assassins and Mechs! {Easy fix for this one - Move the Dex to Attack to the Tier 1 Acrobat Staff Training Enhancement!} - It's the FIRST Enhancement we're going to take anyway!

Remake the three first Cores as:
Assassin: +3 Bluff, Hide & Move Silently AND +1 to each per extra Core Enhancement taken
Acrobat: +3 Balance, Jump & Tumble AND +1 to each per extra Core Enhancement taken
Mechanic: +3 Search, Open Lock and Disable Device AND +1 to each per extra Core Enhancement taken.

Remove the Tier 1 Skill Enhancements and drop Skill Boost to Tier 1 Mech, Haste Boost to Tier 1 Acrobat and Dmg Boost to Tier 1 Assassin!


Can we also get replacement Tier 2 Enhancements for:
Acrobat - May use Dex for Disable Device or May use Wis for Search.
Assassin - May use Int for Bluff or Spot
Mechanic - May use Int for Open Lock or Spot


Lastly: Why on Eberron are Assassins NOT Int to Hit and Dmg?
Int is required for Assassinate so MUST be Maxed!

Arkantios
08-23-2014, 11:45 AM
So far quite a few good comments. Lets try to get some more posts in the area of "I don't like this because...." and "I think it should be changed to...." "because....". Constructive criticism goes a long way. Also being able to say whats wrong and what we think should be done to fix it in small words can be useful. I like some of the posts saying that they dont like the enhancement trees and then saying why, and saying where to move different things.

One thing a friend of mine and I were thinking is that in pnp dnd 3.5 the Rogue's bonus feats at 10/13/16/19 could either be used for the small list of bonus feats given or any other feat. Of course asking for every other feat for those four levels would be slightly ludicrous, so I've compiled a small list of feats I believe that should be added to the rogue bonus feat list.

Combat Expertise - Defensive combat stance. 13 int. Acrobats taking this would have a nice and needed increase to their AC and it is a pre-req for the currently broken Improved Feint, which is exceeding useful for Acrobats as well as Assassins.

Improved Feint - This needs to be fixed first but it is an exceptional feat for a Rogue to have. As a Rogue, I know that we need more ways of obtaining SA, or getting aggro off us for that couple seconds. If fixed, since it's a feat, adding 2-3W would be wonderful.

Hamstring - This feat is highly underutilized. Mostly so because we don't have the extra feat slot for it. I know personally I've needed to get away from a few things because I was low on health, so I use to hamstring them, go use a heal scroll, and jump back into combat. *Rogue Thinking 101*. Also, since feat, add 2-3W.

Insightful Reflexes - Come on, this is made for rogues, we all know it. Assassins and mechs need to pump int for max DC and damage and acrobats still use int quite a bit. This feat just seems obvious to have included in the bonus list.

Precise Shot/Rapid Shot/Point Blank Shot/Imp Precise Shot - First things first, Artificers get them as bonus feats. If a rogue is heavily spec'd into mechanic he should be able to take these feats as bonus feats. Rogues in general are extremely burdened with low feats and trying to be a ranged rogue is almost impossible to get all the ranged feats without sacrificing all sorts of other things. These are 4/7 of the basic feats we get at heroic. Add imp crit, possibly insightful reflexes, and completionist and you're already maxed unless you're a human.

Weapon Finesse - "Dagger in the Back: You can now use your Dexterity for damage with Daggers and Kukris. If you possess the Weapon Finesse feat, this also applies to melee weapons with which you can use your Dexterity modifier to hit. This enhancement does not work with handwraps or unarmed attacks."

Sap - "When this feat is activated, a melee special attack is made. If it hits, the victim is dazed for 18 seconds normally or 30 seconds from a successful sneak attack. (Whether or not your character can normally perform sneak attacks) or until they are damaged. Unlike Trip and Stunning Blow, no save is made against this effect, as of Module 4. Creatures who cannot be sneak attacked will not be affected." This being a 2-3W attack would be recommended if, and only if, the damage is done before the Sap effect, otherwise it would not be quite as useful.

Force of Personality - Rogue's are pictured as suave. Always have been. We use cha for bluff, diplo, umd, etc, so to us it can be rather important. Adding this would stop the most of us who just dump it because it's only used for skills.

On the end note from Force of Personality, for the love of god please take Bluff and Diplomacy off the same timer. I don't know anyone who actually uses Diplo instead of Bluff. Because they are on the same timer, most of the time I only put points into it because of the optionals in the crucible. Only reason.

Thank you for reading this longer post.

InsanityIsYourFriend
08-23-2014, 04:23 PM
I'm going to make a report of all the feedback I get on this because I believe that rogues really need some loving and nobody is doing anything about it. Everything from random thoughts to heartfelt confessions are needed. If anyone can give actual damage data and whatnot that would be amazing. Twf/swf/heck even thf rogue data would be awesome. This report I'm making will hopefully be shot up a few ladders.

Show your love for rogues, lets steal back that throne that has always belonged to us.


Assassin: the poisons are good at level 1-10, level 11-15 they are decent on vorpal, past lvl 16 they really dont do as much anymore
Mechanic: you are nudging us to use great crossbow, there is one named great crossbow in the game, and... great crossbow (best damage rating out there) vs equally geared shuriken build (lowest damage rating out there) shuriken build wins
Acrobat: ... how the **** can i complain here? i know! i can't add my dex mod to SA dmg, add that into my capstone again pretty please? oh and TF Qstaff doesn't look very awesome

nokowi
08-23-2014, 04:26 PM
Which past life increases assassinate DC?

Heroic completionist will add +1 to your DC.

The issue is really being tough enough while making an Int based toon. When out of stealth, less DPS means you take more damage before the mob is killed. Giving up con for int means you are squishier. Giving up epic toughness for +1 int makes you squishier.

Having PRR, better AC, 3-4 green steel displacement items, getting that +3 insightful intelligence helm, etc is quite a grind.

Getting that extra 30 hp from barb, and all of the small bonuses from heroic lives really add up.

I like to think each heroic past life increases your power by about 1%. That extra 40% power really makes a difference when you get to EE content as an assassin. Skilled play trumps all of this, however, so you can get by without these if you are cautious and skilled enough.

It takes work and skill to play an EE assassin to its full potential. This is why few people can or choose to do it.

Arkantios
08-23-2014, 04:30 PM
It takes work and skill to play an EE assassin to its full potential. This is why few people can or choose to do it.

We like it that way, but it would still be understandable to give us a bit more balance. Or at the very least change some of the enhancements around and lower their AP cost.

Raoull
08-23-2014, 05:00 PM
I remember well when EVERY capped Rogue was an Assassin and anyone NOT playing an Assassin was called a Gimp!

So I was very happy with the Devs looking at fixing Acrobat and Mechanic.

HOWEVER: I have NOT been pleased with the Results!


What the Devs did was make Acrobat and Mechanic into half of a Multiclass with Monk and Artificer respectively!

And of course nerfed Assassin while they were at it with DC changes!


I HATE that we're now given Bonuses to Great X-Bows that are essentially useless whether we want those bonuses or not!
I HATE that we have to take a completely useless Dagger or Stick Enhancement to get to the stuff we want in Acrobat or Assassin!
Each Rogue Pre is predicated on a different weapon type and they DON'T go together!
EVERY Rogue is going to want at least one of the Enhancements from Mechanic YET Who in the world is going to pick up a Great X-Bow instead of a Longbow or Shortbow or Shuriken with such a small benefit?



I'm guessing you don't play other classes much.

Really, all things considered, there are reasons for every type of rogue to "splash" the other tress:

-asassin: sneak damage, venomed strikes, dodge, Killer (this is extremely powerful. actually more powerful to Mechanics and Acrobats than it is to a TWF assassin)
-Acrobat: haste boost (awesome on assassins, less so on mechanics), faster sneaking, pass through on tumble, and at 20 APs you unlock 3 powerful abilities (can't be knocked down, bonus damage to helpless enemies, and a massive boost to defensive roll)
-Mechanic: trapping skills, Wand & Scroll master, +UMD


If you look at other classes, there are very few that would want to spend 17+ (and that's mechanic holding it back, Acro/Assassin offer more like 26+) in 2 other trees.

-Artie/Druid/FvS/Fighter/Paladin.... only have 2 trees
-Monk's Henshin mystic is a waste. Sorcs have all sorts of confusion going on due to elements,

Bards (thanks to the 2 buffed trees, and the insane new one)... lets ignore those.
Ranged Rangers are in a pretty similar situation. 2 full trees, and a solid 14 points in the 3rd. Melee specialists... less so (and the top tiers of their tree is a joke)
Barbarians have 3 decent trees, but nothing nearly as good as assassin or acrobat. Really the one great ability is the 3second timer cleave.
Clerics do pretty well, but a non-melee cleric wouldn't go over 8 points for defense in Warpriest.
Wizards are similar but worse off than clerics, although the armor pass might change that.


It also sounds like you're complaining about the "Enhancement Tax", where you need to spend enhancements on junk to unlock good stuff. Again, other classes have just as much, if not more. I think the worst for this is the KotC tree. To unlock the signature Paladin Ability (that clerics/FvS's unlock at tier 1 for 1Ap each), you need to spend 4 points on.... Ugh. Tell me that taking "faster sneaking" in the Acrobat Tree on your assassin is worse than that... and I'd think you don't sneak enough to be a rogue.....


Mechanic is the only one that I can really see using some love compared to other classes trees. Part of that is because they pushed hard for other crossbows to be useful... but failed. The other bows can't compete with the double rate of fire of repeaters. This also makes the +damage enhancements ridiculous to most mechanics (4AP for +1 dam? really?). If the simply changed that ability to +1/+1 for repeaters, and +1/+2 for non-repeaters, it would go a long way. As it is my Mechanic burns AP on junk just to get to 30AP for doublestrike, and trying to get to 40 just seems a waste.




Lastly: Why on Eberron are Assassins NOT Int to Hit and Dmg?
Int is required for Assassinate so MUST be Maxed!

Easy solution, just splash bard. That bard tree is so ridiculous....
(note this is a joke. I think that bards did need serious love, but that SB was massive overkill.)



TL;DR: I feel your pain, but everything you complain about is just as bad if not worse for other classes. The enhancement pass could seriously use an enhancement pass.....

FranOhmsford
08-23-2014, 05:43 PM
I'm guessing you don't play other classes much.

Rofl!

29 Characters on Cannith alone - The Lowest level being 12 {ONE character!}

The only class I don't have any character on at this moment is Bard!


Really, all things considered, there are reasons for every type of rogue to "splash" the other tress:

I never said there wasn't!

What I said was that the 1st core of each tree is an Enhancement Tax for the other two Prestiges!

The 3 Rogue Prestiges are based on mutually exclusive Weapons {Daggers/Kukris, Staves and X-Bows!} and a tiny bonus to a weapon you're rarely going to use is of no benefit to anyone!


If you look at other classes, there are very few that would want to spend 17+ (and that's mechanic holding it back, Acro/Assassin offer more like 26+) in 2 other trees.

Is this an attack on Rogue Mech?

I actually agree: It's a Weak Tree BUT Neither Acrobat or Assassin Trees provide much of a bonus to Mechanics anyway!

The biggest problem though is that any Rogue Mech that doesn't take at least 2 levels of Arti is straight up gimping their character!
Arti and Rogue Mech synergize so strongly that there's MULTIPLE different class splits that work incl. straight up 13/7 either way!
The Devs tried to kill the Arti/Mech split when they brought out the Enhancement Trees BUT they forgot that what they were doing was hurting the Pures more than the Multis!


-Artie/Druid/FvS/Fighter/Paladin.... only have 2 trees

Both Arti Trees are straight up trash!
Arti needs ripping apart and starting again!



Barbarians have 3 decent trees, but nothing nearly as good as assassin or acrobat. Really the one great ability is the 3second timer cleave.

Biggest issue with Barbs is the spreading out of Rage Enhancements forcing you to invest in all 3 trees!


It also sounds like you're complaining about the "Enhancement Tax", where you need to spend enhancements on junk to unlock good stuff. Again, other classes have just as much, if not more. I think the worst for this is the KotC tree. To unlock the signature Paladin Ability (that clerics/FvS's unlock at tier 1 for 1Ap each), you need to spend 4 points on.... Ugh. Tell me that taking "faster sneaking" in the Acrobat Tree on your assassin is worse than that... and I'd think you don't sneak enough to be a rogue.....

None of my Rogues have EVER taken more than one rank of faster sneaking!
And Nice to know you only see ONE way to play a Rogue!

The big issue with KotC and Sacred Defender is that SD is pretty much USELESS to a KotC/HotD and SDs are drooling at the stuff in KotC they could use!

SD costs way too much!
KotC on it's own isn't that great on it's own BUT if an SD could afford it they'd jump at spending 20+ points in KotC!


Mechanic is the only one that I can really see using some love compared to other classes trees. Part of that is because they pushed hard for other crossbows to be useful... but failed. The other bows can't compete with the double rate of fire of repeaters. This also makes the +damage enhancements ridiculous to most mechanics (4AP for +1 dam? really?). If the simply changed that ability to +1/+1 for repeaters, and +1/+2 for non-repeaters, it would go a long way. As it is my Mechanic burns AP on junk just to get to 30AP for doublestrike, and trying to get to 40 just seems a waste.

Again - Mech and Arti synergise so strongly that spending 40 points in Mech just means you've got less to spend in Battle Engineer and your Racial Tree.

And yes - The Great X-Bow push was silly!
We're all taking Arti levels ANYWAY - We're NOT using Great X-Bows!
And even at Lvl 1 {before we take that 1st Arti level} we're not using a Great X-Bow either - Most likely we're swinging a trashy Ember Rapier!



TL;DR: I feel your pain, but everything you complain about is just as bad if not worse for other classes. The enhancement pass could seriously use an enhancement pass.....

This thread is about ROGUES!

I've complained about problems with literally every class over the years and will continue to do so!

BUT

This thread is about ROGUES!


Also: I don't like Feat or Enhancement Taxes!
Wherever they are I will complain about them till I'm blue in the face!

And the 1st Cores of the Rogue Trees ARE Enhancement Taxes as they literally do absolutely NOTHING for the other two Prestiges!!!

Move the Current Core bonuses into a Tier 1 Enhancement - For Acrobat and Mech that's easy - Just stick them in the Tier I Staff and X-Bow Enhancement!
For Assassin it's slightly harder as there isn't any Dagger Enhancements BUT I suppose the Dex to Attack and Kukri Prof. could be moved into the Poison Attacks Enhancement.

Then take the Tier I Skill Enhancements and move them into the 1st Core as +3 to the 3 main skills of each Pre and +1 per extra Core taken:
Acrobat = +3 to Balance, Jump & Tumble with +1 at Core 2,3,4 and Capstone
Assassin = +3 to Bluff, Hide and Move Silently with +1 at Core 2,3,4 and Capstone
Mechanic = +3 to Disable, Open Lock and Search with +1 at Core 2,3,4 and Capstone.
Maybe up the Capstone Bonus to +4 for a total of +10 to each skill!

Then the Haste, Dmg and Skill Boosts can be moved down from Tier 2 to replace the Tier I Skill Enhancements!

Raoull
08-23-2014, 06:10 PM
Rofl!



Before going further... I'll note that I think we seem to actually agree with basically everything.

No need to let that get in the way of a good argument though!



Is this an attack on Rogue Mech?

I actually agree: It's a Weak Tree BUT Neither Acrobat or Assassin Trees provide much of a bonus to Mechanics anyway!


err.... actually "killer" is HUUUUGE on a Mech. 20% doubleshot is better than anything in the tree for DPS, except maybe "Int to damage" core ability.

Actually, the 20+ point stuff in Acrobat is similarly awesome. But, in Assassin you can take tiers of sneak damage and venomed blades to get you near that 20 points. On Acrobat there is very little. Haste boost is insane on an Assassin, but from my testing only gives about a 10% attack speed boost over 30 seconds to a Mech (vs. 20% for most classes).



The biggest problem though is that any Rogue Mech that doesn't take at least 2 levels of Arti is straight up gimping their character!
Arti and Rogue Mech synergize so strongly that there's MULTIPLE different class splits that work incl. straight up 13/7 either way!
The Devs tried to kill the Arti/Mech split when they brought out the Enhancement Trees BUT they forgot that what they were doing was hurting the Pures more than the Multis!

I wouldn't quite agree. The 2 artie splash gives 2 feats (if you want MT anyway) plus runearms. That isn't all that huge.
I think the real problem is that going to 20 is so useless on a Mechanic. The capstone is noise, and you need to waste a bunch of AP to get there. Due to that, nearly any splash is going to be more beneficial. Add to that the fact that 3 of the special Rogue Feats are way better than the others, 16 rogue seems like the sweet spot for a non-assassinate "pure" rogue. (And really, if you can't blow the points in Acrobat, maybe only 13 rogue.)



Both Arti Trees are straight up trash!
Arti needs ripping apart and starting again!

lordy yes....

Anyway, skip to the end....




This thread is about ROGUES!


Er... that was fine and dandy when it was the original "Shout out to rogues, write what you play" thread of the OP (which my original post largely was). Once you start getting into all of the complaints about weak trees and AP taxes.... I don't see how you can do that without comparing to what other classes have. Those trees don't exist in a vacuum, contrary to what the designer of Swashbuckler thought....

Saekee
08-23-2014, 06:27 PM
Post from another thread.


I remember well when EVERY capped Rogue was an Assassin and anyone NOT playing an Assassin was called a Gimp!

So I was very happy with the Devs looking at fixing Acrobat and Mechanic.

HOWEVER: I have NOT been pleased with the Results!


What the Devs did was make Acrobat and Mechanic into half of a Multiclass with Monk and Artificer respectively!

And of course nerfed Assassin while they were at it with DC changes!


I HATE that we're now given Bonuses to Great X-Bows that are essentially useless whether we want those bonuses or not!
I HATE that we have to take a completely useless Dagger or Stick Enhancement to get to the stuff we want in Acrobat or Assassin!
Each Rogue Pre is predicated on a different weapon type and they DON'T go together!
EVERY Rogue is going to want at least one of the Enhancements from Mechanic YET Who in the world is going to pick up a Great X-Bow instead of a Longbow or Shortbow or Shuriken with such a small benefit?

Light Repeaters SHOULD have been at Enhancement 1 for Mechs! - Look we're going to take at least 2 Arti Levels anyway {Probably 6 for Flame Turret!}.
Why make Lvl 1 such a Pain for this ONE build? - We take the Rogue Level FIRST! {And no Lvl 1 on a TRd Rogue is NOT fun!}.

Knife in the Darkness is utterly useless to and basically an Enhancement tax for Acrobats and Mechs who want to take any Tier 1 Enhancement {say Sneak Attack Training} from Assassin!

Staff Control = Ditto for Assassins and Mechs! {Easy fix for this one - Move the Dex to Attack to the Tier 1 Acrobat Staff Training Enhancement!} - It's the FIRST Enhancement we're going to take anyway!

Remake the three first Cores as:
Assassin: +3 Bluff, Hide & Move Silently AND +1 to each per extra Core Enhancement taken
Acrobat: +3 Balance, Jump & Tumble AND +1 to each per extra Core Enhancement taken
Mechanic: +3 Search, Open Lock and Disable Device AND +1 to each per extra Core Enhancement taken.

Remove the Tier 1 Skill Enhancements and drop Skill Boost to Tier 1 Mech, Haste Boost to Tier 1 Acrobat and Dmg Boost to Tier 1 Assassin!


Can we also get replacement Tier 2 Enhancements for:
Acrobat - May use Dex for Disable Device or May use Wis for Search.
Assassin - May use Int for Bluff or Spot
Mechanic - May use Int for Open Lock or Spot


Lastly: Why on Eberron are Assassins NOT Int to Hit and Dmg?
Int is required for Assassinate so MUST be Maxed!


So far quite a few good comments. Lets try to get some more posts in the area of "I don't like this because...." and "I think it should be changed to...." "because....". Constructive criticism goes a long way. Also being able to say whats wrong and what we think should be done to fix it in small words can be useful. I like some of the posts saying that they dont like the enhancement trees and then saying why, and saying where to move different things.

One thing a friend of mine and I were thinking is that in pnp dnd 3.5 the Rogue's bonus feats at 10/13/16/19 could either be used for the small list of bonus feats given or any other feat. Of course asking for every other feat for those four levels would be slightly ludicrous, so I've compiled a small list of feats I believe that should be added to the rogue bonus feat list.

Combat Expertise - Defensive combat stance. 13 int. Acrobats taking this would have a nice and needed increase to their AC and it is a pre-req for the currently broken Improved Feint, which is exceeding useful for Acrobats as well as Assassins.

Improved Feint - This needs to be fixed first but it is an exceptional feat for a Rogue to have. As a Rogue, I know that we need more ways of obtaining SA, or getting aggro off us for that couple seconds. If fixed, since it's a feat, adding 2-3W would be wonderful.

Hamstring - This feat is highly underutilized. Mostly so because we don't have the extra feat slot for it. I know personally I've needed to get away from a few things because I was low on health, so I use to hamstring them, go use a heal scroll, and jump back into combat. *Rogue Thinking 101*. Also, since feat, add 2-3W.

Insightful Reflexes - Come on, this is made for rogues, we all know it. Assassins and mechs need to pump int for max DC and damage and acrobats still use int quite a bit. This feat just seems obvious to have included in the bonus list.

Precise Shot/Rapid Shot/Point Blank Shot/Imp Precise Shot - First things first, Artificers get them as bonus feats. If a rogue is heavily spec'd into mechanic he should be able to take these feats as bonus feats. Rogues in general are extremely burdened with low feats and trying to be a ranged rogue is almost impossible to get all the ranged feats without sacrificing all sorts of other things. These are 4/7 of the basic feats we get at heroic. Add imp crit, possibly insightful reflexes, and completionist and you're already maxed unless you're a human.

Weapon Finesse - "Dagger in the Back: You can now use your Dexterity for damage with Daggers and Kukris. If you possess the Weapon Finesse feat, this also applies to melee weapons with which you can use your Dexterity modifier to hit. This enhancement does not work with handwraps or unarmed attacks."

Sap - "When this feat is activated, a melee special attack is made. If it hits, the victim is dazed for 18 seconds normally or 30 seconds from a successful sneak attack. (Whether or not your character can normally perform sneak attacks) or until they are damaged. Unlike Trip and Stunning Blow, no save is made against this effect, as of Module 4. Creatures who cannot be sneak attacked will not be affected." This being a 2-3W attack would be recommended if, and only if, the damage is done before the Sap effect, otherwise it would not be quite as useful.

Force of Personality - Rogue's are pictured as suave. Always have been. We use cha for bluff, diplo, umd, etc, so to us it can be rather important. Adding this would stop the most of us who just dump it because it's only used for skills.

On the end note from Force of Personality, for the love of god please take Bluff and Diplomacy off the same timer. I don't know anyone who actually uses Diplo instead of Bluff. Because they are on the same timer, most of the time I only put points into it because of the optionals in the crucible. Only reason.

Thank you for reading this longer post.
very good suggestions above
Sap's cooldown allows it to be used continuously. Just keep trying to assassinate; if you fail, Sap; then stealth, bluff, repeat. Works in solo anyway
I love rogues but am playing a pure ninja now
I want to eventually only play rogues as I feel they are the 'elite' class for advanced players
I think the best weapon for them in epics is the drow dagger
Perhaps what is needed is a full guide--gear, stealth-friendly quests (like Epic Garl), things of note

Arkantios
08-23-2014, 06:41 PM
Perhaps what is needed is a full guide--gear


Nahh lol. Let the people who want to play rogues work for it.

Saekee
08-23-2014, 08:59 PM
Rofl!

29 Characters on Cannith alone - The Lowest level being 12 {ONE character!}

The only class I don't have any character on at this moment is Bard!



I never said there wasn't!

What I said was that the 1st core of each tree is an Enhancement Tax for the other two Prestiges!

The 3 Rogue Prestiges are based on mutually exclusive Weapons {Daggers/Kukris, Staves and X-Bows!} and a tiny bonus to a weapon you're rarely going to use is of no benefit to anyone!



Is this an attack on Rogue Mech?

I actually agree: It's a Weak Tree BUT Neither Acrobat or Assassin Trees provide much of a bonus to Mechanics anyway!

The biggest problem though is that any Rogue Mech that doesn't take at least 2 levels of Arti is straight up gimping their character!
Arti and Rogue Mech synergize so strongly that there's MULTIPLE different class splits that work incl. straight up 13/7 either way!
The Devs tried to kill the Arti/Mech split when they brought out the Enhancement Trees BUT they forgot that what they were doing was hurting the Pures more than the Multis!



Both Arti Trees are straight up trash!
Arti needs ripping apart and starting again!




Biggest issue with Barbs is the spreading out of Rage Enhancements forcing you to invest in all 3 trees!



None of my Rogues have EVER taken more than one rank of faster sneaking!
And Nice to know you only see ONE way to play a Rogue!

The big issue with KotC and Sacred Defender is that SD is pretty much USELESS to a KotC/HotD and SDs are drooling at the stuff in KotC they could use!

SD costs way too much!
KotC on it's own isn't that great on it's own BUT if an SD could afford it they'd jump at spending 20+ points in KotC!



Again - Mech and Arti synergise so strongly that spending 40 points in Mech just means you've got less to spend in Battle Engineer and your Racial Tree.

And yes - The Great X-Bow push was silly!
We're all taking Arti levels ANYWAY - We're NOT using Great X-Bows!
And even at Lvl 1 {before we take that 1st Arti level} we're not using a Great X-Bow either - Most likely we're swinging a trashy Ember Rapier!




This thread is about ROGUES!

I've complained about problems with literally every class over the years and will continue to do so!

BUT

This thread is about ROGUES!


Also: I don't like Feat or Enhancement Taxes!
Wherever they are I will complain about them till I'm blue in the face!

And the 1st Cores of the Rogue Trees ARE Enhancement Taxes as they literally do absolutely NOTHING for the other two Prestiges!!!

Move the Current Core bonuses into a Tier 1 Enhancement - For Acrobat and Mech that's easy - Just stick them in the Tier I Staff and X-Bow Enhancement!
For Assassin it's slightly harder as there isn't any Dagger Enhancements BUT I suppose the Dex to Attack and Kukri Prof. could be moved into the Poison Attacks Enhancement.

Then take the Tier I Skill Enhancements and move them into the 1st Core as +3 to the 3 main skills of each Pre and +1 per extra Core taken:
Acrobat = +3 to Balance, Jump & Tumble with +1 at Core 2,3,4 and Capstone
Assassin = +3 to Bluff, Hide and Move Silently with +1 at Core 2,3,4 and Capstone
Mechanic = +3 to Disable, Open Lock and Search with +1 at Core 2,3,4 and Capstone.
Maybe up the Capstone Bonus to +4 for a total of +10 to each skill!

Then the Haste, Dmg and Skill Boosts can be moved down from Tier 2 to replace the Tier I Skill Enhancements!
btw seems like you have been playing your barb toons lately with all the exclamation points in your post ????

FranOhmsford
08-23-2014, 09:35 PM
btw seems like you have been playing your barb toons lately with all the exclamation points in your post ????

I ALWAYS play my Barb toons on the Forums!!!

Gizeh
08-23-2014, 09:53 PM
btw seems like you have been playing your barb toons lately with all the exclamation points in your post ????

You're not the first one to notice:

"Cut out all these exclamation points. An exclamation point is like laughing at your own joke." - F. Scott Fitzgerald

:)

goodspeed
08-23-2014, 10:17 PM
When I made my first rog I went with one of wowo's builds and modified it a lil on the guts. Was great, still is forcing SA. But now with all the changes and enhancements, and ED's, I honestly can't stand twf wraps or swords.

Ive become so addicted to just endlessly cleaving and cutting through dozens of monsters with overpowered 2 handers and seeing these huge numbers. It's even worse now that ive made that thunder falchon. Hell my pally mix gathers up like 20 undead and just wails on everything like an indestructible maniac that just got consumed of the effects of pcp lol.

Nightmanis
08-23-2014, 10:37 PM
When I made my first rog I went with one of wowo's builds and modified it a lil on the guts. Was great, still is forcing SA. But now with all the changes and enhancements, and ED's, I honestly can't stand twf wraps or swords.

Ive become so addicted to just endlessly cleaving and cutting through dozens of monsters with overpowered 2 handers and seeing these huge numbers. It's even worse now that ive made that thunder falchon. Hell my pally mix gathers up like 20 undead and just wails on everything like an indestructible maniac that just got consumed of the effects of pcp lol.

I supplemented my love of big numbers with a constant, high speed stream of numbers. Non blitz on a stunned mob doing 220+ first number, 80+ second number 5 times a second is just so addicting it's insane. But I spent months trying to achieve that. I love my rogue...

Ungood
08-23-2014, 11:50 PM
Well, I don't have a Rogue, at best I had a "Rogue Life" for my main, and then I was a Mechanic.

So what I am going to say is going to focus on Mechanic.

Personally I found them to be very weak, the things I would have liked to have seen done with them, where not done.

Like for example.

I would have liked them to be able to "Take a 20" when disarming a trap. This would have added some time to disarm/pick time, but would have guaranteed a 20 roll.

I would have also liked it if Mechanics could have "Adjusted" their ammo, IE: make Bolt's that were in essence Traps, that the Mechanic could shoot.

I would have liked for Mechanics to be able to go a step up on the Trap Evasion tier, and get additional damage reductions from failing to dodge traps, like -10, -20, -30% reduction as they went up the tree, and this would be above and beyond any other saves or reductions they got, as well as increased saves vs traps.

Those were just a few of the things I would have liked to have seen, making Mechanics the trap masters of the game, would have been a nice touch overall, seeing some Rogue-Slash be able to out trap a pure rogue was always kind of sad.

arcattaii
08-24-2014, 11:22 AM
Splash builds become too powerful after enhancement pass. Although the Devs did some changes to improve capstones of some classes, but it won't change the current circumstances.

In my opinion, splashes should be more restrictive. For example, the T5 enhancements should require CLASS level 12, and remove the restriction of picking 2 T5 from different trees. This will somewhat help the pure class builds.

In current design, pure assassin will never be competive with the most popular splash builds, even if given a big Assassinate DC improvement. Because they lack the effective self healing abilities and saved. A fair geared Dex based rogue will only have around 60 reflex save (non-buffed), not to mention their will and fortitude saves. I'm also a fan of pure classes, but it become more and more unplayable now.

For the TWF Assassins themselves. I think the Devs should add an ability, either in Core or Tree, to allow assassins use INT modifier to hit and damage when wielding finesseable weapon, or at least for dagger and kukri. And for epic destinies, I suggest to introduce “melee levels”. It works similar to “caster level”, but only help to increase the DCs for specific class abilities. For example, each Shadowdancer level count as 1 rogue level for a total 6, each GMoF level count as 1 monk level, and the same for fighters barbs and others.

FranOhmsford
08-24-2014, 12:01 PM
err.... actually "killer" is HUUUUGE on a Mech. 20% doubleshot is better than anything in the tree for DPS, except maybe "Int to damage" core ability.


Now just to get there you're losing an awful lot from either Mechanic or more likely your racial tree.

And let's see if we can get to 20 in Assassin without buying basically useless Enhancements for a Mech {Ignoring the 1st Core Obviously}:

Core 1 - 1 pt
Tier 1 Sneak Attack Training - 2 pts
Tier 1 Stealthy - 2 ranks, 2 pts
Tier 2 Sneak Attack Training - 2 pts
Tier 2 Dmg Boost - 3 ranks, 6 pts
Tier 3 Crit Acc - 3 ranks, 3 pts
Tier 3 Sneak Attack Training - 2 pts
Tier 3 Intelligence - 2 pts

20 pts - Just made it!

2 extra points in Hide and MS are neither here nor there
and of course the Tier 1 Core is a complete Waste for a Mech!

Add:
Tier 4 Killer - 3 ranks, 3 pts
Tier 4 Int - 2 pts
Tier 4 Sneak Attack Training - 2 pts
Tier 4 Crit Dmg - 3 ranks, 3 pts

and you've spent 30 pts in Assassin on a Rogue Mech!

Saekee
08-24-2014, 12:12 PM
Splash builds become too powerful after enhancement pass. Although the Devs did some changes to improve capstones of some classes, but it won't change the current circumstances.

In my opinion, splashes should be more restrictive. For example, the T5 enhancements should require CLASS level 12, and remove the restriction of picking 2 T5 from different trees. This will somewhat help the pure class builds.

In current design, pure assassin will never be competive with the most popular splash builds, even if given a big Assassinate DC improvement. Because they lack the effective self healing abilities and saved. A fair geared Dex based rogue will only have around 60 reflex save (non-buffed), not to mention their will and fortitude saves. I'm also a fan of pure classes, but it become more and more unplayable now.

For the TWF Assassins themselves. I think the Devs should add an ability, either in Core or Tree, to allow assassins use INT modifier to hit and damage when wielding finesseable weapon, or at least for dagger and kukri. And for epic destinies, I suggest to introduce “melee levels”. It works similar to “caster level”, but only help to increase the DCs for specific class abilities. For example, each Shadowdancer level count as 1 rogue level for a total 6, each GMoF level count as 1 monk level, and the same for fighters barbs and others.

I wonder--would INT in the first cores be enough? What if assaasinate used either Int OR Dex? Consider shadowdancer's executioner's strike

FranOhmsford
08-24-2014, 12:20 PM
Now: What do we want from Mechanic:

Core 1 - 1 pt
Tier 1 X-Bow Training - 2 pts
Tier 1 Mechanics - 3 ranks, 3 pts
Tier 1 Awareness - 3 ranks, 3 pts
Core 2 - 1 pt
Core 3 - 1 pt
Tier 2 X-Bow Training - 2 pts
Tier 3 X-Bow Training - 2 pts
Tier 3 Int - 2 pts
Tier 3 UMD - 3 ranks, 3 pts
Core 4 - 1 pt
Tier 4 Int - 2 pts
Tier 4 X-Bow Training - 2 pts
Tier 2 Skill Boost - 3 ranks, 6 pts {Probably unnecessary but gets you to 31 pts spent in Tree}
Core 5 {a complete waste} - 1 pt
Tier 5 Rapid Fire - 3 ranks, 3 pts
Tier 2 Wand and Scroll Mastery - 3 ranks, 6 pts {Gotta get 40 pts spent for Capstone}
Capstone Hip Flask

42 pts spent total!

Which leaves just 8 pts for Racial Enhancements!

Elf
Cores 1-4 - 6 pts
Nothing is Hidden - 1 rank, 2 pts

Halfling
Cores 1-4 - 6 pts
Cunning - 1 rank, 1 pt
Guile - 1 pt

Drow
All Cores - 7 pts
Keen Senses - 1 rank, 1 pt
Eurgh - No Nothing is Hidden!!!



One Question - Does the Killer Morale Bonus stack with Rapid Fire Doubleshot from Rogue Mech {doesn't say what type of bonus that is on Wiki}?

Arkantios
08-24-2014, 01:56 PM
What are your guys' thoughts on adding more feats to the rogue bonus feat list? I shared mine. Let's here what other people think about mine and possibly some more of their own. Please include a logical reason of why they should be added. (My list was Page 2 Post 22)

FranOhmsford
08-24-2014, 03:14 PM
What are your guys' thoughts on adding more feats to the rogue bonus feat list? I shared mine. Let's here what other people think about mine and possibly some more of their own. Please include a logical reason of why they should be added. (My list was Page 2 Post 22)

Improved Feint, Hamstring, Sap & Insightful Reflexes I could see being added to the Rogue Bonus Feat list.

But I don't think we need the others and the Bonus Feat list would be Unwieldy with all of them.

As it is there's only really 3 feats in the current list worth taking - and only 2 of them what I'd call actually strong feats: Imp Evasion {which virtually every none newbie Rogue takes at Lvl 10} and Opportunist.
With Skill Mastery being the 3rd.

But we don't want to go in the opposite direction with way too many feats being on the list either.


I'm guessing most Rogue Mechs and Assassins who are going to take IR will want it way before Lvl 10 but putting it on the Bonus list will help.
Improved Feint, Hamstring and Sap from what I can tell are rarely taken now so any boost to these is a good thing.

And Weapon feats definitely shouldn't be on the list as:
1) You're going to want them long before Lvl 10 {Well Lvl 13 really as nothing's going to beat Imp. Evasion as the Lvl 10 choice!}.
2) Rogues already have a bunch of Weapon Bonuses in their Enhancements for their chosen weapons and adding Weapon Feats to the Bonus Feats list is overkill in my book.
and
3) They get taken anyway!





Also:
Nimble Fingers and Skill Focus: Disable + Skill Focus: Open Lock should be merged into ONE Feat for +5 to each.
Acrobatic should be merged with Skill Foci: Jump & Tumble for +5 to each.
Alertness with Skill Foci: Listen, Search & Spot for +5 to each.
Athletic with Skill Foci: Balance & Swim for +5 to each
Negotiator with Skill Foci: Bluff, Diplo & Haggle for +5 to each
Self Sufficient with Skill Foci: Heal & Repair for +5 to each
Stealthy with Skill Foci: Hide & Move Silently for +5 to each

Bullheaded and Discipline both need serious buffage - Merge them with Skill Focus: Intim & Concentration respectively and buff up the Save Bonuses too.

Skill Foci: Perform, Spellcraft and UMD can stay for now BUT the Devs could also come up with a New feat that gives all three {make it Bard only perhaps.}.

Combat Casting and Quicken - Basically..as it is...Combat Casting is a complete and utter waste of a Feat!
Give the +4 Concentration Bonus to Quicken and have done with it!

Arkantios
08-24-2014, 03:23 PM
And Weapon feats definitely shouldn't be on the list as:
1) You're going to want them long before Lvl 10 {Well Lvl 13 really as nothing's going to beat Imp. Evasion as the Lvl 10 choice!}.
2) Rogues already have a bunch of Weapon Bonuses in their Enhancements for their chosen weapons and adding Weapon Feats to the Bonus Feats list is overkill in my book.
and
3) They get taken anyway!


What are you classifying as weapon feats?

Shadow_Jumper
08-24-2014, 03:42 PM
As a 5+ year rogue player (one toon, Hsoftl on G-Land, currently working for completionist then straight back to rogue, hit me up if you want) I have seen rogues come and go. I have also noticed from myself, and other rogues who I consider decent, they are not going to be the party changing class that everyone expects from mages/monchers/other OP builds.

What they will do is make your party run a lot more smoothly. In the same sense, most good rogues can make a bad party work.

The main thing I have learned as a rogue is that playing one is 30% build, 20% gear, and 50% play style. When you get all three, you get a good rogue, but most importantly, you got to know when you should let someone go ahead, who to assassinate first, and generally the tips and tricks of being..........well.......just being a rogue.

Check out Melkor's INT based build for a pure assassinate based rogue

Check out Hassan's Assassin for a Human assassin that does very well balancing survivability, DC, damage, ect

Check out my build in my signature for a Halfling assassin that works for max DPS, as close to a DC as Melkor's build, and as much survivability as possible

All three builds are somewhat dated, but they all provide a good building platform to start an endcap, EE capable rogue.

Pretty much with rouges, you can't roll one up on a 1st life, throw Pinion on them, and expect them to be able to handle EEs. You gotta play them, gotta get used to them, and gotta gear them.

Dagolar
08-24-2014, 03:54 PM
Hey guys, so as most of us know, rogues have been set at a bit of a decline for quite a while, dps, assassinate, and some other stuff. I've been playing one myself for roughly 3 years or so and it's still my favorite class. If I want to play one, it's going to be a pure 20 assassin. Sadly we hardly ever see them anymore because it's basically just a flavor build. The assassinate DC is ridiculously hard to get viable for the hardest content and people usually just splash 1-2 rogue for the evasion/trapping.

There are tons of other things to rant about with rogues, especially with the new twf "proxy nerf". Well, plus the fact that a 14-15 Rog/5-6 Bard can assassinate things better than a pure one can. Thing is, I want to hear what you guys think about rogues, pure or not. Acrobat, Assassin, Mechanic. Tell me everything. What's wrong with it, whats awesome, what should stay and go, what you guys think should be changed and what it should be changed to. Absolutely everything

I'm going to make a report of all the feedback I get on this because I believe that rogues really need some loving and nobody is doing anything about it. Everything from random thoughts to heartfelt confessions are needed. If anyone can give actual damage data and whatnot that would be amazing. Twf/swf/heck even thf rogue data would be awesome. This report I'm making will hopefully be shot up a few ladders.

Show your love for rogues, lets steal back that throne that has always belonged to us.

Major issues include-

Undesirable high level core enhancement abilities.

Lack of versatility in trees (Assassin is Assassinate, skills, and SA only, basically; TA? Staffs. Mechanic? Great Crossbows, doable for repeaters, some skills) make splashing for enhancements less desirable than most trees [Assassin especially lacks much appeal, since other'n Assassinate there isn't much to offer to build styles, and Assassinate (like abilities in the other trees) scales to rogue level.] [Nevermind how poorly the Mechanic traps function outside of low-level heroic quests, even on a pure class, pure int rogue (that is to say, the damage output/other benefits is a joke)].


Rogue bonus feats aren't really OOMPH any more.
Evasive Roll, sure, on a TA.
Opportunist? Good, but not really worth going 10 rogue for anymore.
Improved Evasion? Most people min-max saves if they're going evasion. IE is only really slottable by pureclasses, and pureclasses tend to not need it.
The rest, well-
Skill Mastery +1 just doesn't have quite as much impact now that overall skill expectations for end-game are doubled.


So yeah.
Basically, what's being said is, all classes except bards and paladins need love, now, heh.

Arkantios
08-24-2014, 03:55 PM
The main thing I have learned as a rogue is that playing one is 30% build, 20% gear, and 50% play style.When you get all three, you get a good rogue, but most importantly, you got to know when you should let someone go ahead, who to assassinate first, and generally the tips and tricks of being..........well.......just being a rogue.

Pretty much with rogues, you can't roll one up on a 1st life, throw Pinion on them, and expect them to be able to handle EEs. You gotta play them, gotta get used to them, and gotta gear them.

For the first part, I can completely agree with because play style is huge for a rogue. You need to know a vast amount of things ranging from where the traps are, what are priority mobs, who might need a backup heal, etc. It's interesting playing a very well rounded rogue.

I'm exceedingly happy that rogues arent the "hey dude...check this out...I click this...and boom, everything is gone" type of class. You actually need skill to be a good/great one. I've looked at those three builds before and saw the good that they could do, but they arent really my play style. I play more of a brute rogue, but still a pure 20 assassin. Lol, I enjoy having the aggro on me because I have no problem still obtaining SA even with all of the mobs circling around me. Therefore, I am the SneakATank :P

FranOhmsford
08-24-2014, 05:53 PM
What are you classifying as weapon feats?

Basically...All of these:




Combat Expertise - Defensive combat stance. 13 int. Acrobats taking this would have a nice and needed increase to their AC and it is a pre-req for the currently broken Improved Feint, which is exceeding useful for Acrobats as well as Assassins.

Precise Shot/Rapid Shot/Point Blank Shot/Imp Precise Shot

Weapon Finesse


Though I suppose CE doesn't really count as a weapon feat as such, the fact is that no Rogue in his/her right mind is going to take that over PA or Precision anyway!


EDIT: I didn't notice CE was a pre-req for Improved Feint - Suffice to say...That restriction needs to be removed!

Arkantios
08-24-2014, 06:12 PM
Though I suppose CE doesn't really count as a weapon feat as such, the fact is that no Rogue in his/her right mind is going to take that over PA or Precision anyway!


EDIT: I didn't notice CE was a pre-req for Improved Feint - Suffice to say...That restriction needs to be removed!

Yeah, if Improved Feint is fixed, Combat expertise would be nice to have to get it lol. Even if you dont have it turned on because you have PA or Precision on.

As for Rapid Shot/Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot/Imp Precise shot, those are for mechs. This is because for a Mech, you need those, rapid reload, imp crit ranged, and if you have completionist then that. If you arent human, your 7 heroic feats are already taken up if you go pure rogue. I want these to be bonus feats because it logically makes sense and it would give mechanics a bit more wiggle room instead of being basically stuck with only these feats.

Saekee
08-24-2014, 06:15 PM
So far quite a few good comments. Lets try to get some more posts in the area of "I don't like this because...." and "I think it should be changed to...." "because....". Constructive criticism goes a long way. Also being able to say whats wrong and what we think should be done to fix it in small words can be useful. I like some of the posts saying that they dont like the enhancement trees and then saying why, and saying where to move different things.

One thing a friend of mine and I were thinking is that in pnp dnd 3.5 the Rogue's bonus feats at 10/13/16/19 could either be used for the small list of bonus feats given or any other feat. Of course asking for every other feat for those four levels would be slightly ludicrous, so I've compiled a small list of feats I believe that should be added to the rogue bonus feat list.

Combat Expertise - Defensive combat stance. 13 int. Acrobats taking this would have a nice and needed increase to their AC and it is a pre-req for the currently broken Improved Feint, which is exceeding useful for Acrobats as well as Assassins.

Improved Feint - This needs to be fixed first but it is an exceptional feat for a Rogue to have. As a Rogue, I know that we need more ways of obtaining SA, or getting aggro off us for that couple seconds. If fixed, since it's a feat, adding 2-3W would be wonderful.

Hamstring - This feat is highly underutilized. Mostly so because we don't have the extra feat slot for it. I know personally I've needed to get away from a few things because I was low on health, so I use to hamstring them, go use a heal scroll, and jump back into combat. *Rogue Thinking 101*. Also, since feat, add 2-3W.

Insightful Reflexes - Come on, this is made for rogues, we all know it. Assassins and mechs need to pump int for max DC and damage and acrobats still use int quite a bit. This feat just seems obvious to have included in the bonus list.

Precise Shot/Rapid Shot/Point Blank Shot/Imp Precise Shot - First things first, Artificers get them as bonus feats. If a rogue is heavily spec'd into mechanic he should be able to take these feats as bonus feats. Rogues in general are extremely burdened with low feats and trying to be a ranged rogue is almost impossible to get all the ranged feats without sacrificing all sorts of other things. These are 4/7 of the basic feats we get at heroic. Add imp crit, possibly insightful reflexes, and completionist and you're already maxed unless you're a human.

Weapon Finesse - "Dagger in the Back: You can now use your Dexterity for damage with Daggers and Kukris. If you possess the Weapon Finesse feat, this also applies to melee weapons with which you can use your Dexterity modifier to hit. This enhancement does not work with handwraps or unarmed attacks."

Sap - "When this feat is activated, a melee special attack is made. If it hits, the victim is dazed for 18 seconds normally or 30 seconds from a successful sneak attack. (Whether or not your character can normally perform sneak attacks) or until they are damaged. Unlike Trip and Stunning Blow, no save is made against this effect, as of Module 4. Creatures who cannot be sneak attacked will not be affected." This being a 2-3W attack would be recommended if, and only if, the damage is done before the Sap effect, otherwise it would not be quite as useful.

Force of Personality - Rogue's are pictured as suave. Always have been. We use cha for bluff, diplo, umd, etc, so to us it can be rather important. Adding this would stop the most of us who just dump it because it's only used for skills.

On the end note from Force of Personality, for the love of god please take Bluff and Diplomacy off the same timer. I don't know anyone who actually uses Diplo instead of Bluff. Because they are on the same timer, most of the time I only put points into it because of the optionals in the crucible. Only reason.

Thank you for reading this longer post.

The bonus feat list should not include existing feats

Here is where pure rogues benefit the most and where the class can most improve.
I would add feats like Improved Precision, Insightful blade, Heartseeker, Demolitionist, etc

Arkantios
08-24-2014, 06:25 PM
The bonus feat list should not include existing feats

Here is where pure rogues benefit the most and where the class can most improve.
I would add feats like Improved Precision, Insightful blade, Heartseeker, Demolitionist, etc

I like the idea, can you elaborate with more feats and descriptions of them?

FranOhmsford
08-24-2014, 06:38 PM
Yeah, if Improved Feint is fixed, Combat expertise would be nice to have to get it lol. Even if you dont have it turned on because you have PA or Precision on.

As for Rapid Shot/Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot/Imp Precise shot, those are for mechs. This is because for a Mech, you need those, rapid reload, imp crit ranged, and if you have completionist then that. If you arent human, your 7 heroic feats are already taken up if you go pure rogue. I want these to be bonus feats because it logically makes sense and it would give mechanics a bit more wiggle room instead of being basically stuck with only these feats.

What feats is a Pure Rogue Mech taking at Lvl 1,3,6,9,12,15 and 18 then if they aren't taking these?

Drow Rogue Mech
Lvl 1 - Point Blank Shot
Lvl 3 - Rapid Shot
Lvl 6 - Rapid Reload
Lvl 9 - Precise Shot
Lvl 10 - Imp. Evasion
Lvl 12 - Imp Crit: Ranged
Lvl 13 - Opportunist
Lvl 15 - Imp Precise Shot
Lvl 16 - Skill Mastery
Lvl 18 - Insightful Reflexes
Lvl 19 - Skill Mastery
Only thing I can think of that you're missing now is Precision. {And If Insightful Reflexes was in the Bonus list that wouldn't be an issue either.}.

Also - You're forgetting that 90% + of Rogue Mechs are going to have Arti Levels anyway!

Saekee
08-24-2014, 06:42 PM
I like the idea, can you elaborate with more feats and descriptions of them?

Improved Precision: Precision feat now bypasses 40% fort
Insightful blade: int to damage with daggers, kukris and staves
Heartseeker: Your equipped weapon gains Heartseeker 1. Can be taken multiple times.
Improved assasinate: adds 4 to assasinate DC. Can be taken multiple times.
Ghost: You gain permanent 10% incorporeality. Stacks with all other sources
Detonater: +6 DC to traps, 10% trap setting speed. Can be taken multiple times
Faker: +4 UMD
Cunning: +2 sneak attack die. Can be taken multiple times
Rune arm juryrig: can use Rune arms, but only for imbues
shadow mirror: 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Can be taken multple times
etc
The idea would be to make them hard to choose between, enhancing different builds

Arkantios
08-24-2014, 07:46 PM
What feats is a Pure Rogue Mech taking at Lvl 1,3,6,9,12,15 and 18 then if they aren't taking these?

Drow Rogue Mech
Lvl 1 - Point Blank Shot
Lvl 3 - Rapid Shot
Lvl 6 - Rapid Reload
Lvl 9 - Precise Shot
Lvl 10 - Imp. Evasion
Lvl 12 - Imp Crit: Ranged
Lvl 13 - Opportunist
Lvl 15 - Imp Precise Shot
Lvl 16 - Skill Mastery
Lvl 18 - Insightful Reflexes
Lvl 19 - Skill Mastery
Only thing I can think of that you're missing now is Precision. {And If Insightful Reflexes was in the Bonus list that wouldn't be an issue either.}.

Also - You're forgetting that 90% + of Rogue Mechs are going to have Arti Levels anyway!


Decent list. And I'm just saying a pure Mech, if their capstone gets improved.

Possible other feats.

Completionist
Dodge
Mobility
Precision like you mentioned
Possibly Force of Personality.

Arkantios
08-24-2014, 07:51 PM
Improved Precision: Precision feat now bypasses 40% fort.
Insightful Blade: Int to damage with daggers, kukris and staves.
Heartseeker: Your equipped weapon gains Heartseeker 1. Can be taken multiple times.
Improved Assasinate: adds 4 to assasinate DC. Can be taken multiple times.
Ghost: You gain permanent 10% incorporeality. Stacks with all other sources.
Detonater: +6 DC to traps, 10% trap setting speed. Can be taken multiple times.
Faker: +4 UMD
Cunning: +2 sneak attack die. Can be taken multiple times.
Rune Arm Juryrig: Can use Rune arms, but only for imbues.
Shadow Mirror: 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Can be taken multiple times.
etc
The idea would be to make them hard to choose between, enhancing different builds

Looks rather interesting. Some of them could possibly taken as "OP". Quite understandable to be rogue bonus feats though.

Saekee
08-24-2014, 07:57 PM
Looks rather interesting. Some of them could possibly taken as "OP". Quite understandable to be rogue bonus feats though.

agreed--how might you modify them? I just whacked them out off the cuff on my mobile

Arkantios
08-24-2014, 08:21 PM
Improved Precision: Precision feat now bypasses 40% fort.
I think this is perfectly fine as it is.


Insightful Blade: Int to damage with daggers, kukris and staves.
This again sounds completely fine.


Heartseeker: Your equipped weapon gains Heartseeker 1. Can be taken multiple times.
Yep, would be cool.


Improved Assasinate: adds 4 to assasinate DC. Can be taken multiple times.
Maybe not available to be taken multiple times. Amount sounds right.


Ghost: You gain permanent 10% incorporeality. Stacks with all other sources.
I like this very much.


Detonater: +6 DC to traps, 10% trap setting speed. Can be taken multiple times.
I would add +?% damage to traps on this as well. If it's able to be taken multiple times though, bring the DC down to 2 or 3 per time.


Faker: +4 UMD
Uh, yeah, seems okay.


Cunning: +2 sneak attack die. Can be taken multiple times.
Sounds Awesome. Maybe reduce to +1, but +2 sounds right.


Rune Arm Juryrig: Can use Rune arms, but only for imbues.
I would say give them the full ability of the rune arm, but not allowed to shoot it. Some might say give them the entire thing.


Shadow Mirror: 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Can be taken multple times.
If taken multiple times possibly reduce amount, but this sounds about right tbh.

Dagolar
08-24-2014, 08:42 PM
Improved Precision: Precision feat now bypasses 40% fort
Insightful blade: int to damage with daggers, kukris and staves
Heartseeker: Your equipped weapon gains Heartseeker 1. Can be taken multiple times.
Improved assasinate: adds 4 to assasinate DC. Can be taken multiple times.
Ghost: You gain permanent 10% incorporeality. Stacks with all other sources
Detonater: +6 DC to traps, 10% trap setting speed. Can be taken multiple times
Faker: +4 UMD
Cunning: +2 sneak attack die. Can be taken multiple times
Rune arm juryrig: can use Rune arms, but only for imbues
shadow mirror: 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Can be taken multple times
etc
The idea would be to make them hard to choose between, enhancing different builds

Obviously not all as-is, but;

First time in a LONG while I've had to do this;

/SIGNED

:)

But yeah, this is a totally awesome way to approach bringing Rogues back- or perhaps for the first time- into the forefront.

Totally cool suggestions, hopefully the devs pick up on the idea :)

Saekee
08-24-2014, 10:10 PM
I think this is perfectly fine as it is.

This again sounds completely fine.

Yep, would be cool.

Maybe not available to be taken multiple times. Amount sounds right.

I like this very much.

I would add +?% damage to traps on this as well. If it's able to be taken multiple times though, bring the DC down to 2 or 3 per time.

Uh, yeah, seems okay.

Sounds Awesome. Maybe reduce to +1, but +2 sounds right.

I would say give them the full ability of the rune arm, but not allowed to shoot it. Some might say give them the entire thing.

If taken multiple times possibly reduce amount, but this sounds about right tbh.


Obviously not all as-is, but;

First time in a LONG while I've had to do this;

/SIGNED

:)

But yeah, this is a totally awesome way to approach bringing Rogues back- or perhaps for the first time- into the forefront.

Totally cool suggestions, hopefully the devs pick up on the idea :)

thank you both! yes--with rune arm I meant that basically you can't shoot it.

Arkantios
08-25-2014, 12:20 AM
Alright, so more idea guys. What does everyone think about these feats? I think they would be awesome, even if changed a slight bit.

Improved Precision: Precision feat now bypasses 40% fort.
Insightful Blade: Int to damage with daggers, kukris and staves.
Heartseeker: Your equipped weapon gains Heartseeker 1. Can be taken multiple times.
Improved Assasinate: adds 4 to assasinate DC. Can be taken multiple times.
Ghost: You gain permanent 10% incorporeality. Stacks with all other sources.
Detonater: +6 DC to traps, 10% trap setting speed. Can be taken multiple times.
Faker: +4 UMD
Cunning: +2 sneak attack die. Can be taken multiple times.
Rune Arm Juryrig: Can use Rune arms, but only for imbues.
Shadow Mirror: 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Can be taken multiple times.

How about different enhancements? Moving the enhancements around? Reducing AP costs?

One of the things I was thinking about was the poison strikes assassins get. I honestly think they are horrid, and once you get to epics they are useless. This is basically because the stat damage in epics is regained way too quickly by mobs to be useful. If they changed these into stances instead of strikes it would be pretty interesting.

Another thing I was think about is happened upon me while I was doing some of the 2nd ES chain in the drow city. I was getting really annoyed because I kept rolling ones against that drow poison that makes you helpless and then it hit me. Why don't assassins get that? It could be a stance, or even added onto the assassin's venomed blades.

Dagolar
08-25-2014, 01:36 AM
Alright, so more idea guys. What does everyone think about these feats? I think they would be awesome, even if changed a slight bit.

Improved Precision: Precision feat now bypasses 40% fort.
Insightful Blade: Int to damage with daggers, kukris and staves.
Heartseeker: Your equipped weapon gains Heartseeker 1. Can be taken multiple times.
Improved Assasinate: adds 4 to assasinate DC. Can be taken multiple times.
Ghost: You gain permanent 10% incorporeality. Stacks with all other sources.
Detonater: +6 DC to traps, 10% trap setting speed. Can be taken multiple times.
Faker: +4 UMD
Cunning: +2 sneak attack die. Can be taken multiple times.
Rune Arm Juryrig: Can use Rune arms, but only for imbues.
Shadow Mirror: 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Can be taken multiple times.

Remove the 'can be taken multiple times' for all but Heartseeker.
You've got a doublestrike overload with Shadow Mirror, you'd force trap-specs to only take Detonator each feat slot since it's DC based (likewise for Improved Assassinate).
Rename Insightful Blade (since, y'know. Sireth aside, staves aren't typically bladed) into Insightful Strikes or somesuch.
Rune Arm Juryrig doesn't clearly specify if other rune arm item benefits are provided or not. Note that seperating out the other enchantments of an item would be a massive pain to code in.
Otherwise, it should be doable as a feat. Rather a potent one, though- not like anyone but caster artis really puts much thought into the runearm shots when considering the feat.
Maybe have it require Skill Focus: UMD or somesuch, for the flavor association, and to make that feat itself more desirable.




One of the things I was thinking about was the poison strikes assassins get. I honestly think they are horrid, and once you get to epics they are useless. This is basically because the stat damage in epics is regained way too quickly by mobs to be useful. If they changed these into stances instead of strikes it would be pretty interesting.
Sounds good.


Another thing I was think about is happened upon me while I was doing some of the 2nd ES chain in the drow city. I was getting really annoyed because I kept rolling ones against that drow poison that makes you helpless and then it hit me. Why don't assassins get that? It could be a stance, or even added onto the assassin's venomed blades.

Sounds like a compelling Assassin Core20.

Arkantios
08-25-2014, 07:09 AM
Remove the 'can be taken multiple times' for all but Heartseeker.
You've got a doublestrike overload with Shadow Mirror, you'd force trap-specs to only take Detonator each feat slot since it's DC based (likewise for Improved Assassinate).
Rename Insightful Blade (since, y'know. Sireth aside, staves aren't typically bladed) into Insightful Strikes or somesuch.
Rune Arm Juryrig doesn't clearly specify if other rune arm item benefits are provided or not. Note that seperating out the other enchantments of an item would be a massive pain to code in.
Otherwise, it should be doable as a feat. Rather a potent one, though- not like anyone but caster artis really puts much thought into the runearm shots when considering the feat.
Maybe have it require Skill Focus: UMD or somesuch, for the flavor association, and to make that feat itself more desirable.


Improved Precision: Precision feat now bypasses 40% fort.
Insightful Devastation: Int to damage with daggers, kukris and staves. (Changed Name)
Heartseeker: Your equipped weapon gains Heartseeker 1. Can be taken multiple times.
Improved Assasinate: Adds 4 to assasinate DC. (Took off ability to take multiple times)
Ghost: You gain permanent 10% incorporeality. Stacks with all other sources.
Detonater: +6 DC to traps, 10% trap setting speed. +50% Damage with all traps (Added Damage, Took off ability to take multiple times)
Faker: +4 UMD (Possible pre-req of skill foc UMD).
Cunning: +2 sneak attack die. Can be taken multiple times.
Rune Arm Juryrig: Can use Rune arms, but only for imbues. (Clarifying that this means that they get every effect on the runearm but simply cannot use the runearm shot)
Shadow Mirror: 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Can be taken multiple times. (Either leave this as it is and take off the ability to be taken multiple times, or, reduce to 3-4% and keep the multiple times thing)

Does this look better?

Saekee
08-25-2014, 07:46 AM
Improved Precision: Precision feat now bypasses 40% fort.
Insightful Devastation: Int to damage with daggers, kukris and staves. (Changed Name)
Heartseeker: Your equipped weapon gains Heartseeker 1. Can be taken multiple times.
Improved Assasinate: Adds 4 to assasinate DC. (Took off ability to take multiple times)
Ghost: You gain permanent 10% incorporeality. Stacks with all other sources.
Detonater: +6 DC to traps, 10% trap setting speed. +50% Damage with all traps (Added Damage, Took off ability to take multiple times)
Faker: +4 UMD (Possible pre-req of skill foc UMD).
Cunning: +2 sneak attack die. Can be taken multiple times.
Rune Arm Juryrig: Can use Rune arms, but only for imbues. (Clarifying that this means that they get every effect on the runearm but simply cannot use the runearm shot)
Shadow Mirror: 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Can be taken multiple times. (Either leave this as it is and take off the ability to be taken multiple times, or, reduce to 3-4% and keep the multiple times thing)

Does this look better?

Hi Dagolar and Ark, thx for thoughtful feedback on those abilities. I think that rogues, unlike Monks, offer more in this way to pures since their four special abilities start at level 10, instead of 3 martial feats by level 6. Also, strengthening these insted of the enhancements means that a pure rogue is favored.
Funny--I am not sure what four I would take from this list...
A staff build would want doublestrike; assasins, heartseeker; all would want the stacking incorporeality. New players might select the UMD boost.

Arkantios
08-25-2014, 07:53 AM
Hi Dagolar and Ark, thx for thoughtful feedback on those abilities. I think that rogues, unlike Monks, offer more in this way to pures since their four special abilities start at level 10, instead of 3 martial feats by level 6. Also, strengthening these insted of the enhancements means that a pure rogue is favored.
Funny--I am not sure what four I would take from this list...
A staff build would want doublestrike; assasins, heartseeker; all would want the stacking incorporeality. New players might select the UMD boost.

I'd probably take the assassinate dc/heartseeker/incorp/and either Cunning or Insightful Devastation since im more of a power attack rogue than precision.

Saekee
08-25-2014, 08:03 AM
I'd probably take the assassinate dc/heartseeker/incorp/and either Cunning or Insightful Devastation since im more of a power attack rogue than precision.

is that your xxMazexx build/toon? Can you post a screenie or something? Is it pure? Just curious.

Arkantios
08-25-2014, 08:21 AM
is that your xxMazexx build/toon? Can you post a screenie or something? Is it pure? Just curious.

Not currently on that life. Doing a swash just to try it out, but im 26 almost 27. Trying to rush so I can TR into my SneakATank build lol. Havent been a pure rogue since my 6th life and i'm exceedingly starting to miss it.

Saekee
08-25-2014, 08:28 AM
I think another possibility for tier 5 assassinate should be that one can do it with thrown weapons or non-repeating xbows too, so long as he or she is stealthed. I would love to see an assassin whipping a dagger off and instakilling. An EMG in the offhand, of course.
This would open up pure IPS stealthy thrower builds--one could pick off a whole line of mobs

Right now this is occuring anyway with bards and coup de gras, so my suggestion is not OP

Arkantios
08-25-2014, 08:34 AM
This is the most recent picture I can find, but still pretty old and from 15 lives ago lol.

http://i57.tinypic.com/358wbxj.jpg

Altrelo
08-25-2014, 08:35 AM
I accidentally closed the tab and erased all I've written, so I will be brief.

Assassin's Trick: Too long of a cast time, you're a level 0 Rogue is you stand and point for almost 4 seconds. You don't deserve to be level 12.
Nimbleness: Both abilities that increase dodge are hard to maintain. Halfling Agility is good but Nimbleness is quite bad. Make max the stacks at 5 and have them decay every ~4 seconds.
Lethality: Vorpal sucks, we do 100+ damage on SA only. Increase weapon die or extra untyped damage like Knight of the Chalice. Assassin's exploits the body's weakness, show it.
Capstone: Mechanics and Acrobats get our capstones, we only get 2 more SA die. Grant a 50% or so Doublestrike when breaking Sneak. I can't think of an ability that would work with it except for Assassinate.

Perhaps decrease the cooldown of Assassinate, Core 5 of Mechanic does something similar.

What's the point of kukris if daggers get the same threat range as them with Knife Specialization? There are better daggers than kukris and most finesse weapons do piercing damage, taking IC: Slashing then is a waste.

Why is the save on Thunderstone fort? It screams of a will save.
Ooze Flask gives a -2 to AC, seriously? Quick Strike gives a +25% to Doublestrike with only 2 seconds of down time. Give it a blind or 2 seconds of fear, you run away in fear often enough of oozes.

What's with all this half Rogue level foolishness? Give capstones a full Rogue level bonus to DC. The Sorcerers PrE have a load of bonuses, it doesn't matter. Rogue's rely on DC's like casters, you don't see their SLA's needed half their level.
10% Doubleshot? If you're trying to push Great Crossbows, grant an increase to reloading speed.
A Bleed stack? Give it a stun chance on critical for a second or so. It fits with the reason to wield a great crossbow, increase threat range.


Improved Precision: Precision feat now bypasses 40% fort.
Insightful Devastation: Int to damage with daggers, kukris and staves. (Changed Name)
Heartseeker: Your equipped weapon gains Heartseeker 1. Can be taken multiple times.
Improved Assasinate: Adds 4 to assasinate DC. (Took off ability to take multiple times)
Ghost: You gain permanent 10% incorporeality. Stacks with all other sources.
Detonater: +6 DC to traps, 10% trap setting speed. +50% Damage with all traps (Added Damage, Took off ability to take multiple times)
Faker: +4 UMD (Possible pre-req of skill foc UMD).
Cunning: +2 sneak attack die. Can be taken multiple times.
Rune Arm Juryrig: Can use Rune arms, but only for imbues. (Clarifying that this means that they get every effect on the runearm but simply cannot use the runearm shot)
Shadow Mirror: 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Can be taken multiple times. (Either leave this as it is and take off the ability to be taken multiple times, or, reduce to 3-4% and keep the multiple times thing)

Does this look better?
These feats are good, though a bit much it covers all possible Rouge builds.

I also agree with most of the other suggestion, such as adding rogue level to Shadowdancer. As it is I'm likely going to use Legendary Dreadnought when U23 comes in.

Varinon
08-25-2014, 10:04 AM
I love making mock-up trees, and this thread interested me enough to make one. Here's what I'd do to the Assassin tree if I had complete (or any) control over what Turbine does.

For your benefit, all abilities with a green color have not been modified from live. Abilities with a red color are completely new abilities. Abilities with a Yellow color have been moved (and possibly modified)


Assassin

Core Abilities:
• 1 AP, class level 1: Knife in the Darkness: You gain proficiency with Kukris. You can use your Dexterity modifier to hit with Daggers and Kukris. Additionally, you gain +5 Sneak Attack damage for each core ability in the assassin tree that you possess.
• 5 AP, class level 3: Dagger in the Back: You can now use your Dexterity for damage with Daggers and Kukris. If you possess the Weapon Finesse feat, this also applies to melee weapons with which you can use your Dexterity modifier to hit. This enhancement does not work with handwraps or unarmed attacks.
• 10 AP, class level 6: Assassin's Trick: Toggle: Toggle this mode on to bypass 25% fortification and 25% of a monster's immunity to sneak attack.
• 20 AP, class level 12: Assassinate: Stealth Melee Assassinate Attack: On Sneak Attack: Kills a living target instantly if the target fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier). Even on a successful save, the target takes 10d6 additional sneak attack damage from this attack.
• 30 AP, class level 18: Lethality: Any sneak attack that also counts as a vorpal strike (attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation) that you make will kill most living targets.
• 41 AP, class level 20: Deadly Shadow: Active: Activate this ability to gain a bonus to sneak attack damage equal to your Intelligence Modifier, bypass 100% fortification and 100% sneak attack immunity for 20 seconds. While Deadly Shadow is active, you may assassinate on any sneak attack--including sneak attacks made outside of stealth. (Cooldown: 2 minutes). Passive: You gain +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence and +4 sneak attack dice.

Tier One (0 AP Required)
• Poison Strikes (1 AP): Select one of three poisonous attacks
-Heartseeker Poison: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 fortitude save (stacks 1/3/5 times), On Crit: 1d[4/6/8] Con damage, on Vorpal: Heartseeker (-5% hit points, Fort save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier). At tier 3: On vorpal sneak attack: Inflict blindness (Fort save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier)
-Ice Chill Poison: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 reflex save (stacks 1/3/5 times), On Crit: 1d[4/6/8] Dex damage, on Vorpal: Paralysis (Reflex save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier). At tier 3: On vorpal sneak attack: Frozen (Target is frozen in place and considered helpless. Reflex save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier). Targets cannot be both frozen and paralyzed.
-Soulshatter Poison: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 will save (stacks 1/3/5 times), On Crit: 1d[4/6/8] Wis damage, on Vorpal: Curse (-4 attack, skill & save rolls, Will save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier). At tier 3: On vorpal sneak attack: Enervation (Target takes 1d4 negative levels. Will save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier.)
• Toxin Affinity (1 AP): +[1/2/3] Fortitude saves vs. Poisons and to the save DC of your Poison attacks.
• Shiv (1 AP): Melee Attack: +[1/2/3][W] damage and reduces your threat with nearby enemies by -[100/200/300]. On Sneak Attack: Target also gains a -2 Fortitude Save against Poisons for 20 seconds (Stacks 5 times) (Cooldown: 12 seconds)
• Sneak Attack Training I (2 AP): Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks.
• Stealthy (1 AP): +[1/2/3] Hide and Move Silent. At tier 3: +1 Sneak Attack Die

Tier Two (5 AP Required)
• Poison Strikes (1 AP): Select one of three poisonous attacks
• Venomed Bades: Poison Stance: On hit: 1d[4/6/8] (+200 Melee Power) poison damage with weapon attacks.
• Bleed Them Out: Melee Attack: Deal +[1/2/3][W] damage and on successful damage causes your opponent to bleed. On Sneak Attac: Apply two stacks of bleed instead of one. The bleed effect can stack up to [5/10/15] times. (Cooldown: 6 seconds) (Bleed deals 1d6 (+200% Melee Power) damage every 2 seconds for 14 seconds.)
• Sneak Attack Training II (2 AP) [Requires: Sneak Attack Training I]: Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks.
• Damage Boost: Activate to gain a +[10/20/30]% Action Boost bonus to weapon damage for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Tier Three (10 AP Required)
• Poison Strikes (1 AP): Select one of three poisonous attacks
• Critical Accuracy (1 AP): +[1/2/3] to confirm Critical hits
• Bloodletter (1 AP) [Requires: Bleed Them Out]: Bleeding damage is increased to 1d[8/12/20] (+200% Melee Power). Additionally, bleeding enemies have their healing reduced by [15/30/50]%.
• Sneak Attack Training III (2 AP) [Requires: Sneak Attack Training II]: Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks.
• Dexterity or Intelligence (2 AP): Choose one.

Tier Four (20 AP Required)
• Execute (1 AP): Melee Assassinate attack: +[1/2/3][W]. On sneak attack: Deal [100/250/500] additional damage. If the target is below [10/15/20]% health, trigger an Assassinate effect, instantly killing your target unless they make a fortitude save with a DC of (10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier). (Cooldown: 30 seconds)
• Critical Damage (1 AP): +[1/2/3] critical hit damage (before weapon multipliers).
• Killer (1 AP): When you kill a target, gain +5% morale bonus to Doublestrike and Doubleshot for 15 seconds. Weak enemies will not always produce this effect. The killer buff can stack up to 2/3/4 times. When the duration of Killer expires, one stack is removed and the timer is reset.
• Sneak Attack Training IV (2 AP) [Requires: Sneak Attack Training III]: Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks.
• Dexterity or Intelligence (2 AP): Choose one.

Tier Five (30 AP Required)
• Measure the Foe (1 AP): Gain +1 to the DCs of your Assassinate attacks every 3/2/1 second(s) you remain stealthed. This effect stacks up to 5 times.
• Into Oblivion (1 AP) [Requires: Measure the Foe]: Grants an additional +[1/2/3] bonus to the DCs of your Assassinate attacks. Additionally, monsters who are hit with an assassinate attack and save against or are immune to it, take an additional [3/6/10]d6 damage, and lose 25% fortification and 25% sneak attack immunity for 6 seconds.
• Nimbleness (1 AP): On Sneak Attack or Damaged: Up to once every 2 seconds, you gain 1% dodge for 6 seconds. This effect can stack up to [5/10] times.
• Sneak Attack Mastery (2 AP) [Requires: Sneak Attack Training IV]: Sneak Attacks deal [1/2] additional damage per die rolled. For example, if you deal 10d6 Sneak Attack Damage without Sneak Attack Mastery, you would deal 10d6+[10/20] sneak attack damage instead.
• Knife Specialization (2 AP): You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier with daggers and kukris. Daggers also gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range.

Noctus
08-25-2014, 11:23 AM
My Assassin (pure Rogue, max INT) is currently shelfed. Reasons for this are:

he is by Rogue-Class-nature a squishy type, on which yu have to work really hard to alleviate it (get PLs, get GS-Clickys). Yet his DPS gain for this drawback isnt enough as for what other classes/multiclasses can easily reach while having a much better defense.
Assassinate, the Defining Ability of an assassin, is not easy to set up and then even when you totally build for it and pay the build- and opportunitycosts for it, still not realiaby enough in Elite content. Mob saves have just inflated while assassinate-DC got left behind. If i go all out on INT (build, enhancements, gear) on a pure Rogue i should have a reliably asassinate DC on Elite difficulty even before i spend several past lives long for farming the last itzy bit of last missing gear for the perfect setup, or even when im in an off-destiny in epics.
Missing Gear. Ther is an utter lack in items that support Assassinate. There are literally only a handful of items that raise its DC, while casters and combat-tactics-specialists can easily find items that raise they Special Attack DCs, while monster saves are designed with these in mind. Also therer should be items/abilities that make Undead and Constructs backstab-able. The later 3.5 splatbooks and Pathfinder recognized this unfun drawbacks for Rogue in undead-heavy quests and adressed it with items that made these monsters sneakattackable like normal monsters respectively simply makeing all corporeal monsters who do not have explicit Fortification crit- and sneakattackable (not incorporeals or slimy blobs with literally no anatomy).

Cap_Man
08-25-2014, 12:23 PM
Missing Gear. Ther is an utter lack in items that support Assassinate. There are literally only a handful of items that raise its DC, while casters and combat-tactics-specialists can easily find items that raise they Special Attack DCs, while monster saves are designed with these in mind. [/LIST]

This is what I have noticed. There are what? ... two items in the game that increase your assassinate DC? I have an EMG which took me a year to build plus the generosity of party member who passed me the shard. All for a +2 DC ... that is crazy!

Arkantios
08-25-2014, 01:46 PM
This is what I have noticed. There are what? ... two items in the game that increase your assassinate DC? I have an EMG which took me a year to build plus the generosity of party member who passed me the shard. All for a +2 DC ... that is crazy!

I think there are 3 items currently, and one on its way. Emg is +2, shadar-kai get an item out of their 15 pack that gives +2, and there is a necklace out of the deathwyrm raid that gives +4. ENecro 4 is suppose to bring a helm with +4 on it. All of these non-stacking.

Altrelo
08-25-2014, 01:47 PM
I love making mock-up trees, and this thread interested me enough to make one. Here's what I'd do to the Assassin tree if I had complete (or any) control over what Turbine does.

For your benefit, all abilities with a green color have not been modified from live. Abilities with a red color are completely new abilities. Abilities with a Yellow color have been moved (and possibly modified)


Assassin

Core Abilities:
• 1 AP, class level 1: Knife in the Darkness: You gain proficiency with Kukris. You can use your Dexterity modifier to hit with Daggers and Kukris. Additionally, you gain +5 Sneak Attack damage for each core ability in the assassin tree that you possess.
• 5 AP, class level 3: Dagger in the Back: You can now use your Dexterity for damage with Daggers and Kukris. If you possess the Weapon Finesse feat, this also applies to melee weapons with which you can use your Dexterity modifier to hit. This enhancement does not work with handwraps or unarmed attacks.
• 10 AP, class level 6: Assassin's Trick: Toggle: Toggle this mode on to bypass 25% fortification and 25% of a monster's immunity to sneak attack.
• 20 AP, class level 12: Assassinate: Stealth Melee Assassinate Attack: On Sneak Attack: Kills a living target instantly if the target fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier). Even on a successful save, the target takes 10d6 additional sneak attack damage from this attack.
• 30 AP, class level 18: Lethality: Any sneak attack that also counts as a vorpal strike (attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation) that you make will kill most living targets.
• 41 AP, class level 20: Deadly Shadow: Active: Activate this ability to gain a bonus to sneak attack damage equal to your Intelligence Modifier, bypass 100% fortification and 100% sneak attack immunity for 20 seconds. While Deadly Shadow is active, you may assassinate on any sneak attack--including sneak attacks made outside of stealth. (Cooldown: 2 minutes). Passive: You gain +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence and +4 sneak attack dice.

Tier One (0 AP Required)
• Poison Strikes (1 AP): Select one of three poisonous attacks
-Heartseeker Poison: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 fortitude save (stacks 1/3/5 times), On Crit: 1d[4/6/8] Con damage, on Vorpal: Heartseeker (-5% hit points, Fort save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier). At tier 3: On vorpal sneak attack: Inflict blindness (Fort save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier)
-Ice Chill Poison: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 reflex save (stacks 1/3/5 times), On Crit: 1d[4/6/8] Dex damage, on Vorpal: Paralysis (Reflex save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier). At tier 3: On vorpal sneak attack: Frozen (Target is frozen in place and considered helpless. Reflex save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier). Targets cannot be both frozen and paralyzed.
-Soulshatter Poison: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 will save (stacks 1/3/5 times), On Crit: 1d[4/6/8] Wis damage, on Vorpal: Curse (-4 attack, skill & save rolls, Will save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier). At tier 3: On vorpal sneak attack: Enervation (Target takes 1d4 negative levels. Will save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier.)
• Toxin Affinity (1 AP): +[1/2/3] Fortitude saves vs. Poisons and to the save DC of your Poison attacks.
• Shiv (1 AP): Melee Attack: +[1/2/3][W] damage and reduces your threat with nearby enemies by -[100/200/300]. On Sneak Attack: Target also gains a -2 Fortitude Save against Poisons for 20 seconds (Stacks 5 times) (Cooldown: 12 seconds)
• Sneak Attack Training I (2 AP): Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks.
• Stealthy (1 AP): +[1/2/3] Hide and Move Silent. At tier 3: +1 Sneak Attack Die

Tier Two (5 AP Required)
• Poison Strikes (1 AP): Select one of three poisonous attacks
• Venomed Bades: Poison Stance: On hit: 1d[4/6/8] (+200 Melee Power) poison damage with weapon attacks.
• Bleed Them Out: Melee Attack: Deal +[1/2/3][W] damage and on successful damage causes your opponent to bleed. On Sneak Attac: Apply two stacks of bleed instead of one. The bleed effect can stack up to [5/10/15] times. (Cooldown: 6 seconds) (Bleed deals 1d6 (+200% Melee Power) damage every 2 seconds for 14 seconds.)
• Sneak Attack Training II (2 AP) [Requires: Sneak Attack Training I]: Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks.
• Damage Boost: Activate to gain a +[10/20/30]% Action Boost bonus to weapon damage for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Tier Three (10 AP Required)
• Poison Strikes (1 AP): Select one of three poisonous attacks
• Critical Accuracy (1 AP): +[1/2/3] to confirm Critical hits
• Bloodletter (1 AP) [Requires: Bleed Them Out]: Bleeding damage is increased to 1d[8/12/20] (+200% Melee Power). Additionally, bleeding enemies have their healing reduced by [15/30/50]%.
• Sneak Attack Training III (2 AP) [Requires: Sneak Attack Training II]: Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks.
• Dexterity or Intelligence (2 AP): Choose one.

Tier Four (20 AP Required)
• Execute (1 AP): Melee Assassinate attack: +[1/2/3][W]. On sneak attack: Deal [100/250/500] additional damage. If the target is below [10/15/20]% health, trigger an Assassinate effect, instantly killing your target unless they make a fortitude save with a DC of (10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier). (Cooldown: 30 seconds)
• Critical Damage (1 AP): +[1/2/3] critical hit damage (before weapon multipliers).
• Killer (1 AP): When you kill a target, gain +5% morale bonus to Doublestrike and Doubleshot for 15 seconds. Weak enemies will not always produce this effect. The killer buff can stack up to 2/3/4 times. When the duration of Killer expires, one stack is removed and the timer is reset.
• Sneak Attack Training IV (2 AP) [Requires: Sneak Attack Training III]: Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks.
• Dexterity or Intelligence (2 AP): Choose one.

Tier Five (30 AP Required)
• Measure the Foe (1 AP): Gain +1 to the DCs of your Assassinate attacks every 3/2/1 second(s) you remain stealthed. This effect stacks up to 5 times.
• Into Oblivion (1 AP) [Requires: Measure the Foe]: Grants an additional +[1/2/3] bonus to the DCs of your Assassinate attacks. Additionally, monsters who are hit with an assassinate attack and save against or are immune to it, take an additional [3/6/10]d6 damage, and lose 25% fortification and 25% sneak attack immunity for 6 seconds.
• Nimbleness (1 AP): On Sneak Attack or Damaged: Up to once every 2 seconds, you gain 1% dodge for 6 seconds. This effect can stack up to [5/10] times.
• Sneak Attack Mastery (2 AP) [Requires: Sneak Attack Training IV]: Sneak Attacks deal [1/2] additional damage per die rolled. For example, if you deal 10d6 Sneak Attack Damage without Sneak Attack Mastery, you would deal 10d6+[10/20] sneak attack damage instead.
• Knife Specialization (2 AP): You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier with daggers and kukris. Daggers also gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range.

The Capstone is way too powerful. Exectute is way too weak to be a tier 4, the current version without a save is good enough, for the few times you can get it within the right amount of HP the 500 damage already kills it. Your Measure the Foe negates Assassin's Trick. Waiting almost 4 seconds without doing damage or sneak for a split second and Assassinate?

Varinon
08-25-2014, 02:08 PM
The Capstone is way too powerful. Exectute is way too weak to be a tier 4, the current version without a save is good enough, for the few times you can get it within the right amount of HP the 500 damage already kills it. Your Measure the Foe negates Assassin's Trick. Waiting almost 4 seconds without doing damage or sneak for a split second and Assassinate?

Capstone is pretty powerful, I agree. I personally believe that taking 20 levels of a class should be adequately rewarded, but I'll think about it a bit more.

Not sure what you mean about Assassin's Trick and Measure the Foe. The change to Measure the Foe just made it stack up twice as fast. Change to Assassin's Trick changed it from a saveable active to a toggle.

My version of Execute is actually stronger, so I'm not sure where this comes from. Maybe I didn't explain it very well.

Execute (Live):
-Cost: 2 AP
-Damage Boost: +3[W]
-Sneak Attack Boost: If target is below 20% HP, 500 damage. Otherwise, nothing.
-Special: None
-Cooldown: 30s

Melee Assassinate attack: +3[W] damage. On sneak attack: If the target is below 20% health, deal 500 damage. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Execute (Mine, Rank 3): We'll assume we're at rank 3 for the maximum benefit
-Cost: 3 AP +1 AP Cost
-Damage Boost: +3[W] No change
-Sneak Attack Boost: +500 damage Always applies the 500 damage instead of only when the monster is low
-Special: If the target is below 20% HP, fortitude save or die. Has a chance to instantly kill, unlike the old one
-Cooldown: 30s No change

Melee Assassinate attack: +[1/2/3][W]. On sneak attack: Deal [100/250/500] additional damage. If the target is below [10/15/20]% health, trigger an Assassinate effect, instantly killing your target unless they make a fortitude save with a DC of (10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier). (Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Edit: For Measure the Foe, did you mean Into Oblivion? Because I had intended for the two effects to stack (Into Oblivion + Assassins Trick = 50% reduction in fortitude and SA Immunity)

Altrelo
08-25-2014, 02:22 PM
Capstone is pretty powerful, I agree. I personally believe that taking 20 levels of a class should be adequately rewarded, but I'll think about it a bit more.

Not sure what you mean about Assassin's Trick and Measure the Foe. The change to Measure the Foe just made it stack up twice as fast. Change to Assassin's Trick changed it from a saveable active to a toggle.

My version of Execute is actually stronger, so I'm not sure where this comes from. Maybe I didn't explain it very well.

Execute (Live):
-Cost: 2 AP
-Damage Boost: +3[W]
-Sneak Attack Boost: If target is below 20% HP, 500 damage. Otherwise, nothing.
-Special: None
-Cooldown: 30s

Melee Assassinate attack: +3[W] damage. On sneak attack: If the target is below 20% health, deal 500 damage. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Execute (Mine, Rank 3): We'll assume we're at rank 3 for the maximum benefit
-Cost: 3 AP +1 AP Cost
-Damage Boost: +3[W] No change
-Sneak Attack Boost: +500 damage Always applies the 500 damage instead of only when the monster is low
-Special: If the target is below 20% HP, fortitude save or die. Has a chance to instantly kill, unlike the old one
-Cooldown: 30s No change

Melee Assassinate attack: +[1/2/3][W]. On sneak attack: Deal [100/250/500] additional damage. If the target is below [10/15/20]% health, trigger an Assassinate effect, instantly killing your target unless they make a fortitude save with a DC of (10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier). (Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Edit: For Measure the Foe, did you mean Into Oblivion? Because I had intended for the two effects to stack (Into Oblivion + Assassins Trick = 50% reduction in fortitude and SA Immunity)

I see, I apologize as I did not see the toggle. And yes, I meant Into Oblivion. If Assassins Trick did become a toggle, it would be wonderful. Though for a tier 3 Core, it's a bit powerful, just look at Ninja Spy. Though having it early saves against the headache that Elementals are. Your enhancements are actually quite solid, my fingers won't allow me to type anything better! Though I do wonder if it's perhaps too much reduction? With fort bypass items, it seems it could become a bit too much. Rogue's should be weak to undead and elementals.

Varinon
08-25-2014, 02:36 PM
I see, I apologize as I did not see the toggle. And yes, I meant Into Oblivion. If Assassins Trick did become a toggle, it would be wonderful. Though for a tier 3 Core, it's a bit powerful, just look at Ninja Spy. Though having it early saves against the headache that Elementals are. Your enhancements are actually quite solid, my fingers won't allow me to type anything better! Though I do wonder if it's perhaps too much reduction? With fort bypass items, it seems it could become a bit too much. Rogue's should be weak to undead and elementals.

I wouldn't be against reducing Assassin's Trick down to a 20% penetration, and then Into Oblivion into 5%/10%/15% (For a total of 35%). This would make the total possible equal to:

35% (Assassin Tree)
35% (Armor Piercing 35%)
25% Precision
10% Opportunist
15% Grim Precision III
10% Improved Sunder
15% Destruction item
=145%.

Sounds high, but current live you can get to 135%.
This does not include other ways of reducing fortification outside of the Rogue class (and shadowdancer), nor specific fortification bypasses like Wrack Construct.
Other Sources:
GMoF: 10% Piercing Clarity
FotW: 10% Insult
AoV: 50% Shield of Condemnation
Monk: 25% Touch of Despair
Total = 230% (On live)

+Note: Most sources of fortification bypass do not also provide Sneak Attack Immunity reduction.

MalarKan
08-25-2014, 02:49 PM
Well, after 6 pure rogue lives i finally decided to start getting some useful past lives just so i can make my pure rogue rogue have a stronger future. And i started with an 8pal/6/monk/6rogue halfling build. I have to confess that i am so sad to find out how stronger it currently is, and it anoys me so much how even being strenght based it can buff up to get near 80s reflex versus traps and its only lvl 25 still. Also i feel anoyed by how... ok, i understand how logic fits on an artificer getting high trap skills since it tinkers with devices and constructs for a living, but a rogue DISABLES and tinkers with TRAPS for a living! I would suggest rogues gets core bonuses to all trap skills which scalesfor certain class levels taken, for instance, granted class feats for traps like Uncanny Dodge; bonuses which would be like a +10 to traps upong hitting level 20 and would be doubled for having a Mechanic capstone (i know im just exagerating the bonuses, but you guy get that im just throwing you the idea), perhaps it doesnt need to be a feat but... what about a +1 to search, spot, disable and open lock for each core ability taken in a rogue tree, +2 in the mech tree with a +5 in mech capstone. This same idea might work with some new needed bonuses for reflex saves vs traps, but ill get to his later.

Also, i really wanted to see in this game a link between dodge and tumble. I dreamed about having your tumble skill being useful for something else other than cool mechanics and fall down damage taken, i dreamed about having (for monks, rangers and obvously acrobat rogues) something like having 5/10/15% of your tumble skill be added as a dodge bonus while centered or haste/skill/damage boosted (heck, maybe even just added permanently)... why not, maybe added even as stackable bonus to reflex save vs traps, since it breaks my heart seeing Cha (or even Str) based heavily armored paladins have more reflex than a Dex based rogue.

I specialized in playing a brute staff rogue, and before i tried the divine stick im trying atm it was a human pure rogue strenght based. It anoyed me how Sweeping strikes, 10+half rogue level + Dex mod to cleaved-trip effect, would use only HALF of rogue levels... this needs to be changed to full rogue levels so it could become really usable... but dont change it to strenght mod, it belongs with Dex :)

Also...

Yeah, if Improved Feint is fixed, Combat expertise would be nice to have to get it lol. Even if you dont have it turned on because you have PA or Precision on.


... as for combat expertice, my previous human build managed to take Power Attack & combat Expertice, it trully was nice to have for several "oh sh*t!" situations since activating it would give me a really nice PRR bonus with L'dread destiny on.

aaaannnd thats all i can think of for now... §alutes!

Varinon
08-25-2014, 03:37 PM
<snip>
Also, i really wanted to see in this game a link between dodge and tumble. I dreamed about having your tumble skill being useful for something else other than cool mechanics and fall down damage taken
<snip>


Every 10 ranks of tumble giving you 1% dodge would be not only really neat, but also pretty well balanced and not game-breaking. Tumble spell might even see a itsy-bitsy tiny amount of use.

Saekee
08-25-2014, 07:38 PM
the more skills become relevent, the more INT rogues shine

Arkantios
08-25-2014, 08:58 PM
Every 10 ranks of tumble giving you 1% dodge would be not only really neat, but also pretty well balanced and not game-breaking. Tumble spell might even see a itsy-bitsy tiny amount of use.

Dude, yes please.


Capstone is pretty powerful, I agree. I personally believe that taking 20 levels of a class should be adequately rewarded, but I'll think about it a bit more.
Personally, I know it's a bit much, but there really does need to be more of a reason to stay pure.


the more skills become relevent, the more INT rogues shine

Yeah, but let's make sure we arent pushing ourselves into the "Oh, you're not a pure int rogue, you must be a gimp" corner.

Full_Bleed
08-25-2014, 10:53 PM
One of my peeves with my post-enhancement-pass rogue is how so much of its power is in long cooldown click abilities:

Shiv (20 seconds)
Sly Flourish (20 seconds)
Bleed Them Out (15 Seconds)
Execute (30 seconds)
Shadow Dagger (10 seconds)
Assassinate (15 seconds)

And, yes, Assassin's Trick has a ridiculously long animation.

Having more power in passives, toggles, or long cooldown buffs (like Divine Might) would make the class more fun to play.

krimsonrane
08-25-2014, 11:23 PM
Haven't read many of the replies. Likely I won't say anything new. We'll see.

I've played a rogue as my primary class for 4 years. Usually an 18/2 ftr build, but I've tried many combinations with 9 rogue lives total. When the elite 28 DC's shot up and undead seemed to be everywhere, my main toons became... well. a disappointment. I went from being a precisionist and asset for a great team to becoming a gambler who needed babysitting. With rogues a gamble gets you killed. So I Tr'd and tried full drow rogue assassin on my main character with 3 rogue past lives, tons of great gear and +4 tomes. I was getting 50% assassinates on elite at best. Unacceptable.
In raids and guild runs it sucks. Your assassinate requests from the team go from will you do, to can you do? "I'll try" is not a good answer on elite with a multi tr maxed int geared out vet. Making me go through all that wasted time and effort only to reach a glass ceiling with my main toon was a burnout. At the time I had 3 versions of the assassin on 3 toons and had to TR them all.

What I'd like to see is a more sneak abilities. More social skills improvement. More class specific weapons and gear. A definite improvement in assassinate DC access that allows for some multiclassing.
There should be some things only an assassin can do. Like steal your soul as you die and sell it to a summoned demon lord at some later date. Or randomly shift position like a displacer beast. Maybe a simple ability like "assassin teleport" where you can teleport out of a group or room for a short distance. Like suddenly appearing 60 feet back.

maybe all that can be achieved already. Been about a month since I played. I've been busy and on the road.

It's been kinda fun trying out these other builds but I never actually wanted to do that. It was a circumstance. The devs tried something and it didn't work out well for me. Others may have thrived. I don't know.

my 2 cents

Arkantios
08-25-2014, 11:35 PM
Haven't read many of the replies. Likely I won't say anything new. We'll see.

I've played a rogue as my primary class for 4 years. Usually an 18/2 ftr build, but I've tried many combinations with 9 rogue lives total. When the elite 28 DC's shot up and undead seemed to be everywhere, my main toons became... well. a disappointment. I went from being a precisionist and asset for a great team to becoming a gambler who needed babysitting. With rogues a gamble gets you killed. So I Tr'd and tried full drow rogue assassin on my main character with 3 rogue past lives, tons of great gear and +4 tomes. I was getting 50% assassinates on elite at best. Unacceptable.
In raids and guild runs it sucks. Your assassinate requests from the team go from will you do, to can you do? "I'll try" is not a good answer on elite with a multi tr maxed int geared out vet. Making me go through all that wasted time and effort only to reach a glass ceiling with my main toon was a burnout. At the time I had 3 versions of the assassin on 3 toons and had to TR them all.

What I'd like to see is a more sneak abilities. More social skills improvement. More class specific weapons and gear. A definite improvement in assassinate DC access that allows for some multiclassing.
There should be some things only an assassin can do. Like steal your soul as you die and sell it to a summoned demon lord at some later date. Or randomly shift position like a displacer beast. Maybe a simple ability like "assassin teleport" where you can teleport out of a group or room for a short distance. Like suddenly appearing 60 feet back.

maybe all that can be achieved already. Been about a month since I played. I've been busy and on the road.

It's been kinda fun trying out these other builds but I never actually wanted to do that. It was a circumstance. The devs tried something and it didn't work out well for me. Others may have thrived. I don't know.

my 2 cents

Meh, the game is definitely changing. Having an acceptable dc while still being able to multiclass would be nice, but I still want more reason to stay pure.

The small teleport blink-like thing sounds pretty cool though. My rogue build still has a decently high assassinate dc, i've just changed him with the ways turbine has updated the game.

krimsonrane
08-25-2014, 11:46 PM
Meh, the game is definitely changing. Having an acceptable dc while still being able to multiclass would be nice, but I still want more reason to stay pure.

The small teleport blink-like thing sounds pretty cool though. My rogue build still has a decently high assassinate dc, i've just changed him with the ways turbine has updated the game.

I'm sure many adapted. Somehow. Maybe make one or more of those unique abilities lvl 20 rg only. Same with gear.

Arkantios
08-26-2014, 12:52 AM
I'm sure many adapted. Somehow. Maybe make one or more of those unique abilities lvl 20 rg only. Same with gear.

Having certain gear class restricted would be exceedingly interesting. Even more so if you needed a certain capstone to be able to equip it.

HyperChopper
08-26-2014, 03:08 AM
I used to love my rouge (Mechanic Trap Monkey), back when they were considered useful. Because of my real life circumstances my playtime is sporadic to the point I pug during most of my available play time. When I can get in a group I usually get complements like, I’m surprised you are so survivable with so few HP, ext.

I miss my rouge; it was my first and favorite character. I almost always wind up playing my other characters as they are easier to get in groups with, I’m told how obsolete rouges are with everyone just needing a splash of artificer or so to be as effective for the trap bonus, most parties can bulldoze through traps or time and avoid them altogether, and to be honest my other characters are easier to play.

I feel like splashing is not just an option anymore, it’s expected. I don’t like feeling forced to give up “Playing a class”, and I for one miss “Cheat Death” lol. As such I am probably one of the few pure class players left, (out of stubbornness). Yes I TR; and I have several TR characters. Each of my TR characters past lives were played pure, even if against popular demand. I guess I never was one for peer pressure. :P

Robbenklopper
08-26-2014, 07:47 AM
For the longest time I always wanted to make a pure 20 Drow Rogue Assassin, max stealth, high assassinate DC, the works.

I have given up on trying this in the current game for the following reasons:

1. Almost all the high-end endgame content is filled with undead. Most bosses for the current raids being run are undead.
2. Bugged stealth system means making a solo friendly assassin that relies on stealth doesn't work correctly and isn't worth the effort.
3. Assassinate DC is really hard to reach on anything other than a full blown assassin fanatic.

It would take lives worth of farming for the correct gear.
It would take at least 6 past lives to get a decent assassinate DC for endgame EE content.


Assassins lose their use in a game where everyone else is a maxed DPS/instakill machine. You're reduced to just a subpar DPS machine who can use instakills occasionally when everyone around is doing those jobs much better than you. Stealth also loses its meaning in a game were you know what is coming 99% of the time. What is the point of stealthing in a party when you KNOW what's coming? When you KNOW where and when the mobs will spawn, how many there will be, and what they will be capable of.


You´re speaking with my guildys tongue dude!

Since U21 with all the undead, and especially U22 with the "new" aggro System, our friend and rogue-assasine-fanatic with maxed DC stopped to Play. He simply lost the love to Play, that´s more than 6 months now. Our 3 man guild lost 1/3 of it´s Players! We hope for changes in concept for rogues so he will return.

Arkantios
08-26-2014, 09:53 AM
You´re speaking with my guildys tongue dude!

Since U21 with all the undead, and especially U22 with the "new" aggro System, our friend and rogue-assasine-fanatic with maxed DC stopped to Play. He simply lost the love to Play, that´s more than 6 months now. Our 3 man guild lost 1/3 of it´s Players! We hope for changes in concept for rogues so he will return.

Hmm, well if any of the people at Turbine have read this, you can clearly see that people arent playing pure classes hardly ever anymore and even moreso, people have almost no reason to play a high level rogue. All you need to do is splash 2-6 or maybe 8 rogue for imp uncanny dodge and thats it. People are leaving because they arent fun anymore. The aggro system is affecting this heavily, the DC argument is affecting this heavily, but simply the need not to have or play a rogue is hugely affecting this.

Sunnie
08-26-2014, 09:54 AM
Every 10 ranks of tumble giving you 1% dodge would be not only really neat, but also pretty well balanced and not game-breaking. Tumble spell might even see a itsy-bitsy tiny amount of use.

This sounds like a really good idea to me. It would really help to make Tumble more than a skill to avoid situations of "oh **** I forgot FF where did I put it? crapcrapcrap! HJEAL MEH!" The Heal skill was made useful, too, so it's not like there's no precedence.

parowan
08-26-2014, 11:07 AM
I think everyone agrees that Mechanic was made more or less redundant from the moment Artificer was released. Sad.

Acrobat is still a great line -- but as with mechanic, there's very little incentive to go pure rather than splash. But at least it's good enough to merit a build that's primarily rogue.

Assassin is where my heart lies, and where I feel the pain deepest. Granted, since my primary was an improved feint build, when that feat was broken however many years ago the shine began to come off. The current problems with stealth are depressing. Even if the game worked the way it's supposed to rogues would be underpowered -- the fact that their goodies are broken is insult to injury.

Ideas:
First off, I like the ideas for new bonus feats -- it would be hard to choose between some of them. Int for dmg please yes!!!

The lvl20 assassin core ability is +2 int and +4 SA die. Add to it this: You have a percentage chance equal to your Assassinate DC to bypass any inherent sneak attack immunity. (E.g.: undead, constructs, oozes.) The rationale is that a master assassin should know how to find and target weaknesses in these creatures, even if they're not humanoid or whatever. Note that this doesn't also bypass fortification, which I think keeps it from being overpowered by itself, and keeps it different from wrack construct. And yes, this would require some changes to Shadowdancer. As if that wasn't already needed.

Assassin poisons: many people have rightly mentioned these as being useless. A wasted opportunity to add nice flavor to the game. They scale horribly.

Another thing that doesn't scale well: sneak attack. The fact that this is based on die just doesn't mesh with the current monty haul nature of ddo. A maxed assassin gets 8d6 extra sneak attack. That's an average of 28 dmg. But a character with zero rogue levels can easily get 13 SA dmg just with some relatively common gear. More importantly, the extra 28 SA dmg that an assassin gets? What is that really worth in epic elites? It just doesn't scale. Assassins should be getting way more SA relative to other rogues (to say nothing of non-rogues), and SA should mean a lot more than it currently does. It was designed for a ddo with a lvl cap of 20. Make it scale to the crazy-stupid inflation of today's game.

FranOhmsford
08-26-2014, 12:00 PM
This sounds like a really good idea to me. It would really help to make Tumble more than a skill to avoid situations of "oh **** I forgot FF where did I put it? crapcrapcrap! HJEAL MEH!" The Heal skill was made useful, too, so it's not like there's no precedence.

Unfortunately the Devs have got the wrong idea about Tumble - Like Shield Bashing they've been trying desperately to make it an Active ability!

The problem with that is that the vast majority of DDOPlayers won't EVER use it!

The Devs have made Tumble and Shield Bashing the exclusive province of the Elite Gamer with Gamepad and Macros galore!


Tumble AND Shield Bashing SHOULD be PASSIVE not ACTIVE!!!


The Acrobat Tree suffers badly from this as many of the Enhancements are simply not worth taking unless you're one of those Elite gamers with Gamepad and Macros!
Core Abilities: Tumbler {Weak, No real bonus!}, Cartwheel Charge {Utterly USELESS} and Followthrough {After Tumbling Part also utterly USELESS!}.

FranOhmsford
08-26-2014, 12:13 PM
I think everyone agrees that Mechanic was made more or less redundant from the moment Artificer was released. Sad.



I'll never understand why the Devs decided to NERF Mechanics in the Enhancement Pass!

The Repair ability was weak I'll grant you but taking it away entirely wasn't the answer - WF Rogue Mech Hireling - Shadow - still has it and he can keep himself healed in at level E-BB Content quite easily if you use it!
And by at Level I mean Xorian Cypher or Tomb of the Shadow Knight {Lvl 10 Quests on Elite - He's a Lvl 8 hireling!} where because of the deficiencies of the Lvl 9 and 10 Rogue Hirelings Shadow is the go to Hire!

Forcing Great X-Bows on us - The WEAKEST Ranged Weapon in the game!

I'd swear we've lost points in the trapping skills too:
Rogue Mechanic 1 & 2 used to give +2 each to Disable, Open Lock, Repair, Search and Spot for a total of +4!
Now we have to spend 6 points to get just +3 to each of these abilities + Listen! {Which ANY Rogue can get with just a small splash into Mechanic!}.
Yes the AP cost of Skill Boost has been dropped way down and Skill Boost 3 gives 1 more than Skill Boost 4 used to But our base scores are lower!

And all the ridiculously pointless Alchemical Trap Enhancements that are seemingly there just to take up space!

walkin_dude
08-26-2014, 01:17 PM
Which past life increases assassinate DC?

IIRC, arti past life gives a bonus to INT skills, so that's one.

Arkantios
08-26-2014, 01:20 PM
IIRC, arti past life gives a bonus to INT skills, so that's one.

Assassinate isn't a skill, nor is it a tactical ability.

Linvak
08-26-2014, 06:30 PM
I'm not going to delve too far into this because I'm afraid of any drastic changes on my favorite class, and I don't have any huge complaints right now. Other then the update to Fortification/Fort. Bypass creating less sneak attacks on bosses/stronger opponents, I feel pretty strong as a 20 Assassin. I do have a few ideas I'd like to throw about, and hear what people think.

These are mostly for an Assassin, Thief Acrobats are pretty strong right now, and we already know the issues with Mechanic.

High minimal level requirements (13+?)
-No speed reduction while sneaking
-Lvl 20? Ability to crit undead (Rogues are precise, and unless a TA, so very useless versus undead)
-Possible increase in stat dmg on "Crippling Strikes"
-Maybe some CC? I keep coming back to the ability to be precise, sneaky, "striking from the shadows." I feel like we should be getting more benefits then just a sneak attack dmg roll. Possibly adding attack speed reduction on sneak attacks.


I don't feel too hurt about the TWF status as of new update, because it sounds like we'll be getting melee power to our sneak attack dmg (along with base dmg, making TA look pretty freakin scary).
But as a whole, I don't feel any huge changes need to be made, mostly some cleaning up on the edges.

Saekee
08-26-2014, 06:45 PM
hey Ark, thread is getting long--new posters will not have read our ideas--maybe spinoff threads or continuous edit of first post with updates based on thread itself?

Arkantios
08-26-2014, 09:31 PM
Alright, what do you suggest? Pull together the main ideas that everyone likes and start a new thread? And where? Here or the general forum? I really want to get some dev/QA people commenting on this.

Saekee
08-26-2014, 09:42 PM
Alright, what do you suggest? Pull together the main ideas that everyone likes and start a new thread? And where? Here or the general forum? I really want to get some dev/QA people commenting on this.

I would adjust the first post (with a big 'Edited: date') and add 'under discussion:'
Then put in the revised special abilities/feats and revised enhancement lines. And anything else!
thx!

Arkantios
08-26-2014, 09:49 PM
I would adjust the first post (with a big 'Edited: date') and add 'under discussion:'
Then put in the revised special abilities/feats and revised enhancement lines. And anything else!
thx!

Alrighty, Edited: date...at the bottom? Lol Under discussion in (Insert url to here). But feel free to post all new suggestions in this thread.

Something like that? Plus where do you think the thread should go?

Ungood
08-26-2014, 11:05 PM
Unfortunately the Devs have got the wrong idea about Tumble - Like Shield Bashing they've been trying desperately to make it an Active ability!

The problem with that is that the vast majority of DDOPlayers won't EVER use it!

The Devs have made Tumble and Shield Bashing the exclusive province of the Elite Gamer with Gamepad and Macros galore!


Tumble AND Shield Bashing SHOULD be PASSIVE not ACTIVE!!!

Blocking should be added to this as well, I mean really, I am not going to block with my shield?

redoubt
08-27-2014, 12:03 AM
Post from another thread.

Move assassinate enhancement to lvl 12 core.

Move Measure the foe to tier 4.

Move Execute to tier 5 and change "assassinate melee attack" to "melee or ranged attack" and add: When living target is helpless kills instantly.

Add new Tier 5 enhancement - Student of anatomy: You get Intelligence to Damage with melee weapon attacks

That would be pretty balanced post update 22 game in my opinion.

----------

I like those.

My fear would be that with assasinate at level 12, why go past 12? Maybe also put in bonus to assasinate DC in the core at 18 and 20. Perhaps +1 at 18 and +2 at 20.

----------

On playing a rogue, I've had rogue splash on my main for about 7 years now. I also have a level 16 assassin (from when 16 was cap) that I let collect dust. Back then I did not feel the character was survivable enough and it just didn't compare with so many other options I had. More recently (i.e. the last year) I've done 3 pure assassin lives from the shadar-kai race. I love them. Great fun was had. I did full dex, then a dex/int (when I changed over my enhancement from dex to int) and then the third life wall full on-int spec.

CthrutheEgo's very good posts convinced me to trying commiting to full INT assassin. It does work, but it became too much work. I actually pushed out of shadowdancer and began running in Divine Crusader. Once I filled it up, I didn't go back to shadowdancer because I was not missing the assasinate ability and I was doing better damage.

This is part of why I really like the INT to damage idea. I'm fine with it being a tier 5. That would make you commit becaue it locks out tier 5 from other trees. So many other pre's are getting main-stat to damage, I think it is time for assassin's to get it too.

I think the SA available is good where it is (if we get INT to damage that is.)

I think a few extra points of assasinate DC somewhere would be good.

The stealth and assassinate mechanics need to go back to how they were before the fix to ranged agro.

Any assassinate attack needs to apply the "assassinate" first and foremost. ANY other weapon effects need to apply afterward so they do not break assassinate.

Mobs should not automatically see the assassin when there buddy dies. Neither should they stand there and do nothing. If there buddy is in their cone of vision, put them on alert and give them a listen and spot check. The MUST succeed the listen check to home on the assassin. The must actually suceed in the spot check to see the assassin. The auto target needs to end. The proximity of the buddy to the still living mob MIGHT give a bonus to listen or spot because they are "alerted" to the assassin's presence by the dead body which they saw.

Assassins need to learn to open doors while remaining in stealth and invisible.

Assassins need to learn to throw people, darts, rocks, arrows (whatever) to distract mobs. I.e. Get the mobs to use their "listen" check in the wrong area and go looking over there. This skill needs to work without breaking stealth or invis.

Multi-assasinates need to work.

Lastly, TWF seems to be getting the short straw lately. I worry that without the extra off-hand from tempest, twf rogues will fall farther behind. I don't think assassin's should get the last 20% offhand because that is the tempest benifit. Possible options would be, when using daggers or kukri's +xx% doublestrike or +xx% offhand (but only with the assassin weapons to keep it unique and not be just ripping off another pre.)

redoubt
08-27-2014, 12:21 AM
Assassinate isn't a skill, nor is it a tactical ability.

This reminded me.

They need to make it either a tactical skill OR drop more items with bonus to assasinate and with higher values. The other tacticals get items with up +15? Assassinate gets +4? ah...?

I get that instakill DC cannot be as high because those are not insta-kill (other than the helpless damage makes them pretty much insta-kill, but technically they are not). So on a sorc life i'm doing right now, I'm wearing a necklace with min level 15 that gives +4 to evocation. The first item with bonus to assasinate is shadar-kai only item for +2 at level 15. Next item is the EPIC Midnight Greetings at level 20 for +2. Then the necklace at level 28 for +4. Even the casters can get +6 at level 26 on a tier2 thunderforged weapon.

I can see reason to allow rogues to get a higher DC than casters due to the cooldown and the requirement to actually sneak up on the target. Failure of the first try for a caster means throughing a different insta-kill and then maybe a mez of some sort if that also fails. For an assassin, failing the attempt means entering melee combat immediately and rogue are squishy and that junk hurts on EE.

CThruTheEgo
08-27-2014, 08:11 AM
I didn't read most of this thread as I tend to just take the game as it is and let others figure out how to improve it, but here's my 2 cents on the current state of rogues (assassins actually, since that's the only kind of rogue I've ever played).

TL;DR version: Fix the broken automatic agro mechanic, make sure that melee power affects TWF and sneak attacks, and all is well.

The only thing wrong with rogues currently is the broken automatic agro mechanic. When you assassinate some mob's buddy, the others should go into search mode and start looking for you, not automatically detect and agro on you. This is especially a problem with archers because once they agro on you and start firing arrows, you can't get back into sneak mode since every time you're hit with an arrow you are forced out of sneak. This is a definite problem as it defeats the entire playstyle of assassins which is unique to them.

Melee power also needs to be added to both TWF and sneak attack damage, but this is still in development so it might end up affecting them. If it is not added, then yes, TWF and rogues will have received a proxy nerf.

It is quite possible to get an effective assassinate DC and I don't see this as a problem at all. A boost could be used for some of the highest level content (EE Stormhorns and the new raids), but that's the only place it's really needed and even there assassinate is not completely useless, you just have to be more selective about your target. See Hassan's Assassin in my sig for such a build as well as links to other builds with an EE capable DC.

Yes there are a lot of undead in the current endgame content, and will be even more with epic Orchard, but undead are not as much of a problem as many people make it out to be. Rogues (assassins in particular) tend to invest a lot in fort bypass, while other classes/builds do not. So crits and sneak attacks against undead are more common on such a build and, at least in my experience, puts rogues on par with other melees I've played vs undead.

Assassins require a very different playstyle compared to other melees. Personally, this is what I like about them, but it is also the reason why many people cannot, or do not like, to play them. For those who cannot adapt to the playstyle, I can understand why they feel that assassins are gimp. But for those who can adapt, assassins are a killing machine.

Arkantios
08-27-2014, 10:32 AM
Assassins require a very different playstyle compared to other melees. Personally, this is what I like about them, but it is also the reason why many people cannot, or do not like, to play them. For those who cannot adapt to the playstyle, I can understand why they feel that assassins are gimp. But for those who can adapt, assassins are a killing machine.

Mhm, assassins are extremely different type of playstyle. If you could, look back through the thread and find some of the stuff about bonus feats that we think should be added. I'm going to condense this thread as best I can into a new thread with the best ideas and thoughts about things. Not quite sure where to put it just yet. Maybe the general, maybe here, maybe both. If you guys start some threads too, it might get some attention from the turbine staff.

Varinon
08-27-2014, 11:01 AM
Mhm, assassins are extremely different type of playstyle. If you could, look back through the thread and find some of the stuff about bonus feats that we think should be added. I'm going to condense this thread as best I can into a new thread with the best ideas and thoughts about things. Not quite sure where to put it just yet. Maybe the general, maybe here, maybe both. If you guys start some threads too, it might get some attention from the turbine staff.

What I personally got from this thread for a tl;dr version:

1) Update the Assassin (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447351-Shout-Out-To-All-The-Rogues?p=5412951&viewfull=1#post5412951) and possibly Mechanic enhancement trees
2) Make more items with Assassinate DC boosts
3) Consider adding new rogue-specific bonus feats.

CThruTheEgo
08-27-2014, 01:57 PM
Mhm, assassins are extremely different type of playstyle. If you could, look back through the thread and find some of the stuff about bonus feats that we think should be added. I'm going to condense this thread as best I can into a new thread with the best ideas and thoughts about things. Not quite sure where to put it just yet. Maybe the general, maybe here, maybe both. If you guys start some threads too, it might get some attention from the turbine staff.

I did see the bonus feat suggestions and I think they would all be quite useful for improving rogues.

Arkantios
08-27-2014, 11:17 PM
Hey guys, i'm really busy with calculus, physics, programming, and economics in college right now. Can I ask you guys to search through this thread and grab your favorite ideas and put them into a few posts? Enhancements, feats, bonus feats, what is currently wrong, and what would be effective ways to fix these problems. Any other ideas would be nice. I'll put the best ideas i can find from you guys in a new thread and then see what we get from that. We might get some turbine employees to actually comment in there, especially if we make different threads in a few different places. If we are to make a difference, we need to show them how important this is to all of us.

Saekee
08-28-2014, 04:15 PM
The new harper class tree, available to all classes, gives Int to hit and damage for cheap AP. HUGE for rogues.

CThruTheEgo
08-29-2014, 08:53 AM
The new harper class tree, available to all classes, gives Int to hit and damage for cheap AP. HUGE for rogues.

I just got done looking at the harper tree. There will be some excellent synergy with int based assassins. I already know how I'll be redistributing my AP, ending up with 1 more DC and a huge dps boost.

Arkantios
08-29-2014, 07:16 PM
Just took a glance at the harper tree and dude...it's gonna amp assassins soooo much depending on how you use it. Lol, int to hit/damage. half int mod to damage and tactical feats. (Not sure if it's confirmed but someone told me the half int mod was also suppose to go to assassinate dc). I'm exceedingly happy with the tree atm.

Besides that fact, I would still like to gather the best ideas from this thread and get another one started when I'm not too busy. Hopefully in the next couple days ill have the time to actually sit down and crawl through to pull out ome of the great opinions and thoughts of you guys.

Btw, thanks for all the help with this thread so far.

Tons of rogueish love,

~XxMazexX The Rogue SneakATank

Altrelo
08-30-2014, 04:54 PM
Just took a glance at the harper tree and dude...it's gonna amp assassins soooo much depending on how you use it. Lol, int to hit/damage. half int mod to damage and tactical feats. (Not sure if it's confirmed but someone told me the half int mod was also suppose to go to assassinate dc). I'm exceedingly happy with the tree atm.

Besides that fact, I would still like to gather the best ideas from this thread and get another one started when I'm not too busy. Hopefully in the next couple days ill have the time to actually sit down and crawl through to pull out ome of the great opinions and thoughts of you guys.

Btw, thanks for all the help with this thread so far.

Tons of rogueish love,

~XxMazexX The Rogue SneakATank
It doesn't work with Assassinate, at least I see no increase in the text box. If I had a friend who would let me Assassinate him, I would test it. My only issue is that Assassins, who focus on SA, cannot take the Improved SA feat. While my rogue is doing almost double SA damage in Shadowdancer, I'll miss that feat.

Arkantios
08-30-2014, 08:21 PM
My only issue is that Assassins, who focus on SA, cannot take the Improved SA feat. While my rogue is doing almost double SA damage in Shadowdancer, I'll miss that feat.

Wha..? I'm pretty sure they can take it. Why wouldn't they be able to?

Full_Bleed
08-30-2014, 10:38 PM
Can I ask you guys to search through this thread and grab your favorite ideas and put them into a few posts?

Fix Assassinate aggro. (How about a tiered Enhancement to auto-stealth after a successful assassination?)
Fix TWF range to be equal to SWF and S&B range.
Make more abilities stances/passives.

Arkantios
09-01-2014, 12:19 PM
Fix Assassinate aggro. (How about a tiered Enhancement to auto-stealth after a successful assassination?)
Fix TWF range to be equal to SWF and S&B range.
Make more abilities stances/passives.

Can I have you elaborate on those?

Saekee
09-02-2014, 10:28 AM
I think the new harper tree mediates the main issues with the current assassin weak spots. The mechanics and acrobats are always going to be part of splashes IMHO.
The Hassan Assassin, for example, will save a feat with the Harper tree.
The main incentive to stay pure, then, rests with capstones and the special abilities. I like our ideas here.

nokowi
09-10-2014, 12:52 PM
I think the new harper tree mediates the main issues with the current assassin weak spots. The mechanics and acrobats are always going to be part of splashes IMHO.
The Hassan Assassin, for example, will save a feat with the Harper tree.
The main incentive to stay pure, then, rests with capstones and the special abilities. I like our ideas here.

I only play max-Int assassin (DC 74 as of U22) so my comments pertain mostly to that style of assassin. I have solo'd many EE quests (EE Trackers Trap most recently) with this build (in Shadowdancer ED), so I know for a fact that Int build was a viable option prior to U23.

Changes needed for Int build:
1. Fix U22 agro (I've been using epic roderics wand to assassinate without getting auto-agro)
2. Make hitting the assassinate button always give you a chance at assassinate (It doesn't on EE about 10% of the time)
3. Higher DC item ONLY AT MAX LEVEL (level 28 or level 30 gear) to handle high DC of new content. I did ~50 epic lives and DC's are fine on EE quests while leveling, even out of destiny.

For U23, I plan on spending 40+ points in the assassin tree and taking through tier 4 of the new Harper Tree while dumping my mechanic and acrobat trees. I have mixed feelings about this Tree. (I would rather have stealth back)

Feralthyrtiaq
09-10-2014, 02:02 PM
Yeah, <3 the Tier 2 Mechanic Enhancement

Trap DCs no arcane could ever hope to touch.

With no serious investment in DD getting a seemingly no fail 79 DC using web, glitterdust, grease, and slow mines on my WF SWF 2Ftr/2Rogue/16Arti/5Epic. My web usually fails when I shoot the glass cannon at it /DOH!

And my level 14 WF pure Int based Assassin Rogue is hitting 49 DC on these CC type traps.

Elemental damage mines could be better if Metas, Spell Power and Spell Crit affected them but LOL

Havn't played with the new Assassinate ability beyond a couple HE quests (PoP was fun as hell) but really love what they've done for the traps in the Enhancement line.