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KookieKobold
08-19-2014, 01:33 PM
UPDATE: Lamannia is open for our first early preview of Update 23! However, our original plan to offer a preview of the raid ran into a technical snag (the system we use to teleport groups into the raid is having an issue), so instead we will be offering an early preview of the Epic Orchard of the Macabre and Epic versions of Desecrated Temple of Vol, Ghosts of Perdition, and Inferno of the Damned! We will still have an event today from 4:00 - 7:00 PM Eastern (-4 GMT), so stop on by and say hello!

NOTE: The Epic Quest-giver NPCs for the Orchard quests are not yet in, but you can speak to the Heroic NPCs and you will be able to enter the quests on Epic from the Orchard.

###

Howdy everyone!

We're planning to update Lamannia this coming Thursday, August 21st, then open it to the public!

With this update, we're planning a couple Dev events in order to get some specific feedback.

The first of these events will be held between 4:00 - 7:00 PM Eastern (-4 GMT) on Thursday, August 21st. During this time, several devs will be online to gather and teleport groups into the new U23 Raid!

The second event will be less structured. It will be held throughout the work day for us on Friday (somewhere between 10:00 AM and 6:00 PM Eastern, -4 GMT) and will consist of developers creating LFMs for the new raid, then transporting groups into the raid once the LFM is full.

Release notes and Known issues will be made available on Thursday as well.

See you there!

UurlockYgmeov
08-19-2014, 02:11 PM
AWESOME!

Looking forward to seeing the notes and all the new and improved stuff!

aka OOOOHHHH SHIIINNNEEEEYYYY!

Seikojin
08-19-2014, 02:22 PM
Awesome! Why did this happen now and not a week earlier?

Conjured
08-19-2014, 07:06 PM
And you guys are not wiping right? ill be pretty upset if yall do because i dont feel like reconstructing in order to not have the tools i need. and none of my live toons are ready for lvl 28 EE content as they are in progress so please do not wipe..

PermaBanned
08-19-2014, 07:09 PM
Ok, so Dev event @ 4:00 Eastern - check!

When can I download & instal so as to be ready for it?

G_Lich
08-19-2014, 07:20 PM
Twitch stream pretty please :) Can't take off work to check this one out.

Cetus
08-19-2014, 09:17 PM
I'll be honest, I'm really nervous that the loot will be underwhelming. There's great potential with orchard loot - please don't screw this up.

hunzi2010
08-19-2014, 10:39 PM
I will be trying to make it to this event. should be alot of fun :)

UurlockYgmeov
08-19-2014, 10:50 PM
Awesome! Why did this happen now and not a week earlier?

GenCon? Might have also been pushed back cause of patch 3.

Thar
08-19-2014, 10:56 PM
Hopefully some of our feedback was taken into consideration. If the changes are as listed, the pally "pass" will be an epic failure. The evasion and 2x shield modifier to mrr are also bad news.

Nachomammashouse
08-20-2014, 01:13 AM
Can we please get a Mask of the Abbot item? It's just too cool looking for it not to be in the loot table. Even if it's just a cosmetic item! :D

Wizza
08-20-2014, 03:54 AM
Will we be able to see the loot posted in the forum tomorrow as well?

ReaperAlexEU
08-20-2014, 04:00 AM
i got a baaaad feelin' about this update. i already want more stuff in the 2 existing paly trees than i can afford, and tomorrow i should be getting a glimpse of all the shinies in the new tree, which i'll probably want too. arrrgh! too many choices! :)

Vanhooger
08-20-2014, 04:37 AM
If this pack won't have LOT of good loot it will be another fail.
Raid should have at least 10 item (or even more), each quest 3 named and litany 3x bosses plus all the tapestry, shield and tome choice.

Old pack....lot of loot... new pack...2 item x raid and few useless x quest.

Oh, and please no raid timer bypass till a new raid is been released.

Eth
08-20-2014, 04:58 AM
Will we be able to see the loot posted in the forum tomorrow as well?

You can usually pick up all the new loot in the dojo. Surely someone can post that if the devs don't.

LuKaSu
08-20-2014, 08:53 AM
i got a baaaad feelin' about this update. i already want more stuff in the 2 existing paly trees than i can afford, and tomorrow i should be getting a glimpse of all the shinies in the new tree, which i'll probably want too. arrrgh! too many choices! :)

Woah, wait, what? The Vanguard tree is coming out in U23? I thought it was just the armor changes, KotC and Defender revamps, and the epicification of Necro IV?

ReaperAlexEU
08-20-2014, 08:57 AM
Woah, wait, what? The Vanguard tree is coming out in U23? I thought it was just the armor changes, KotC and Defender revamps, and the epicification of Necro IV?

i thought all that lot was U23?

if not what is U23 brining?

Beethoven
08-20-2014, 09:23 AM
i thought all that lot was U23?

if not what is U23 brining?

From what I understand:

* Armor Pass (including MRR) - which is a tall order since it (allegedly) affects mob to hit, revamp of existing AC systems and introduction of a new additional one (MRR)
* Epic Orchard - which sounds to be roughly similar in proportion to epic Gianthold (epic versions of existing quests, epic version of a wilderness area and new (hopefully endgame) raid pitting players against Vol.
* probably some other, additional minor changes and/or fixes.

That'd make U23 about the same size and in line with game updates such as U17. Personally I'd think it a mistake to also add new trees and would rather have them spend the time/effort on working out whatever kinks and bugs we'll find once the raid goes life and focus on reviewing/balancing the AC/MRR changes for a while before moving on to the next thing.

zaphear
08-20-2014, 09:28 AM
According to Wiki there will be a new area desert as well.. not holding my breath though.
Update 23

Status: Unreleased
Release Date: Unknown (Possibly September)
Further Notes:
The third update of the year will take you to Anauroch, the not-so-barren desert to the north of Cormyr. You will have the chance to battle the armies of Netheril and challenge a new enemy – the enigmatic Phaerimm: DDO Forums

Anauroch was a Forgotten Realms campaign supplement written by Ed Greenwood.

The Phaerimm (also called thornbacks and magic-grubs) are a fictional species or creatures in the Forgotten Realms setting, in the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game. They are malevolent and highly intelligent creatures who are natural spellcasters]]

The ingame Adventure Compendium has shown the quest 'It Came from the Desert' since Update 21.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyvyanne Source on 07-01-2014
Update 23 will bring Epic Orchard of the Macabre to DDO

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProducerRowan Source on 06-09-2014
We will definitely need to address the lack of good small shields in future content. I know we plan to have small shields and bucklers in the loot for the epic version of Orchard which would be released at the same time as these changes.

ReaperAlexEU
08-20-2014, 09:35 AM
From what I understand:

* Armor Pass (including MRR) - which is a tall order since it (allegedly) affects mob to hit, revamp of existing AC systems and introduction of a new additional one (MRR)
* Epic Orchard - which sounds to be roughly similar in proportion to epic Gianthold (epic versions of existing quests, epic version of a wilderness area and new (hopefully endgame) raid pitting players against Vol.
* probably some other, additional minor changes and/or fixes.

That'd make U23 about the same size and in line with game updates such as U17. Personally I'd think it a mistake to also add new trees and would rather have them spend the time/effort on working out whatever kinks and bugs we'll find once the raid goes life and focus on reviewing/balancing the AC/MRR changes for a while before moving on to the next thing.

maybe, i was under the impression we were getting vanguard with all the armour changes. there was some concern over useful stuff being taken out of the defensive trees that gave S&B some damage, the reply was wait till you see what we put in vanguard:


I think when the Vanguard tree is released on the live forums you will get a chance to see our plans for weapon and shield DPS.

Sev~

that's where i got my impression from. sure it ain't fact, but it would be kinda sucky for S&B DPS to get worse with this update, so including vanguard would make a lot of sense (and is probably why they did minimal changes to the existing defensive trees).

anyway, we should find out tomorrow, so i'm waiting with baited breath :)

silinteresting
08-20-2014, 09:36 AM
I'll be honest, I'm really nervous that the loot will be underwhelming. There's great potential with orchard loot - please don't screw this up.

omg this, yes this.

your friend sil :)

Glascanon
08-20-2014, 10:59 AM
Main Question for me is will the Haunted Halls loot stuff be fixed in this update like it was promised to get fixed once upon a time?

Oh yeah... u already have the money... so why should u!?!?!?

KookieKobold
08-20-2014, 12:20 PM
If i may, what specific fixes are you waiting for from the Haunted Halls loot?

PermaBanned
08-20-2014, 12:28 PM
According to Wiki there will be a new area desert as well.. not holding my breath though. It seems the wiki was poorly updated after the last Producer's Letter (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/444707-DDO-Producer-s-Letter-July-2014) where they said the original plan of U23 Aunurach and U24 Epic Orchard was reprioritized. I'm thinking Aunurach should be our end of the year update (U24).

poltt48
08-20-2014, 01:36 PM
OH defently need to be there Thursday then. So want to see lady vol in all her glory in new raid after trying to see pic of her on ddo twitter.

niehues
08-20-2014, 01:47 PM
Main Question for me is will the Haunted Halls loot stuff be fixed in this update like it was promised to get fixed once upon a time?

Oh yeah... u already have the money... so why should u!?!?!?

hehe.. if u track this sort of stuff down.. u may end up disappointed.. My owlbear still cant go through doors/ dont sit on shrines (yeah the animation is done on other wolves) but "they already have the money right"! same goes for the started pack.. that hey im staring playing let get this pack so i can have a perma hire to start playing... WRONG.. the gold seal perma hire that comes there can only be summoned at lv3 even though all gold seal hires are suppose to be casted 2 lvs below..


dont get me wrong on the devs... this new aproach asking for stuff and so on is awesome.. but perhaps putting some effort on this basic stuff that has been "completed" and still with some minor bugs could avoid a lot of frustration...

hoping for one day they revise this kinda minor fixes and make the UI skinnable again or polish it a bit..

Seikojin
08-20-2014, 02:14 PM
If i may, what specific fixes are you waiting for from the Haunted Halls loot?

Perhaps drop rate.

SirValentine
08-20-2014, 02:49 PM
If i may, what specific fixes are you waiting for from the Haunted Halls loot?

Somehow, one of those ML 26 named items has an Insightful attribute bonus of +2...commonly found on much-easier-to-acquire ML 20 or 21 gear, and even available on ML 12 crafted gear. In fact, a bonus strictly less than the +3 that is found on a variety of ML 22-25 gear. Surely that's a bug?

poltt48
08-20-2014, 03:14 PM
Will agree I am really worried about U23 loot to have 5 quests worth of loot a new raid worth of loot with no crafting so should be lot of loots. Also CC suppose to have updated 25 level loots. Then mabar comes out a month after this update and would love to see new 28 level mabar loots but think that is hoping for to much.

lotterholt
08-20-2014, 03:54 PM
If i may, what specific fixes are you waiting for from the Haunted Halls loot?

Well, in MY case at least my Libram still has not been retroactively fixed as was repeatedly promised.

poltt48
08-20-2014, 04:38 PM
Well, in MY case at least my Libram still has not been retroactively fixed as was repeatedly promised.

If you ever read the release noted on patch 2 they said get with a GM and they will fix your libram for you has to be done indivually

PsychoBlonde
08-20-2014, 06:54 PM
hehe.. if u track this sort of stuff down.. u may end up disappointed.. My owlbear still cant go through doors/ dont sit on shrines (yeah the animation is done on other wolves) but "they already have the money right"! same goes for the started pack.. that hey im staring playing let get this pack so i can have a perma hire to start playing... WRONG.. the gold seal perma hire that comes there can only be summoned at lv3 even though all gold seal hires are suppose to be casted 2 lvs below..


dont get me wrong on the devs... this new aproach asking for stuff and so on is awesome.. but perhaps putting some effort on this basic stuff that has been "completed" and still with some minor bugs could avoid a lot of frustration...

hoping for one day they revise this kinda minor fixes and make the UI skinnable again or polish it a bit..

The starter pack hireling is not a "gold seal" hireling. Gold seal means two things: 1.) you can summon this hireling when YOU are two levels below IT (so, yes, it's PERMANENTLY level 3 and is SUPPOSED to be) instead of requiring you to be level 3 or higher to summon it. 2.) you can summon several gold seal hirelings at the same time. That's it. They don't level. Turbine isn't responsible for you failing to understand how hirelings work. Every hireling in the game tells you what level it is. Here's what the starter pack says about this hireling:

Permanent Cleric Hireling
(Bound to Account, 1 per DDO game world)
Every new adventurer can use a hand! Enhance your journey with Elieri Thistledown, a Level 3 Hireling. Elieri’s spells can cure wounds, remove paralysis, and much more. Can be used by characters level 3 or higher.

Please point me to where it says "this hireling levels with you".

PsychoBlonde
08-20-2014, 06:59 PM
Anyway, I am also looking forward to a good selection of loot. Not necessarily super-powerful loot, mind you, just a wide variety. There's SO MUCH in the heroic orchard that it would make ZERO sense to me to have only a few scattered items in the epic version. I'd kind of also like to see an epic turn in that is similar to tapestries/shield pieces/tome pages, although we don't really need MORE ingredients, that's for sure. Maybe a vendor where you can get level 28 augments?

My preference would be to have epic versions of the lower-level loot, but I don't know how feasible this will be.

lotterholt
08-20-2014, 08:10 PM
If you ever read the release noted on patch 2 they said get with a GM and they will fix your libram for you has to be done indivually

Reduced GM hours by the time I get off work and can play they are no longer there :(

PsychoBlonde
08-20-2014, 08:23 PM
Reduced GM hours by the time I get off work and can play they are no longer there :(

So . . . go get another one? It's not like they're that hard to get. You can even buy the stinkin' things off the auction house. If it was something like the Epic Ring of Spell Storing, yeah, okay, but everyone I know who wanted a Libram was able to get one in 3 runs or less. You don't even have to do the extended version.

B0ltdrag0n
08-20-2014, 09:00 PM
Reduced GM hours by the time I get off work and can play they are no longer there :(

What server are you on? If its Thelanis and I have one I will send you one. If I dont have one (I might not) I will help you farm one.

If you are a different server sorry I cant be much help.

arkonas
08-21-2014, 01:09 AM
According to Wiki there will be a new area desert as well.. not holding my breath though.
Update 23

Status: Unreleased
Release Date: Unknown (Possibly September)
Further Notes:
The third update of the year will take you to Anauroch, the not-so-barren desert to the north of Cormyr. You will have the chance to battle the armies of Netheril and challenge a new enemy – the enigmatic Phaerimm: DDO Forums

Anauroch was a Forgotten Realms campaign supplement written by Ed Greenwood.

The Phaerimm (also called thornbacks and magic-grubs) are a fictional species or creatures in the Forgotten Realms setting, in the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game. They are malevolent and highly intelligent creatures who are natural spellcasters]]

The ingame Adventure Compendium has shown the quest 'It Came from the Desert' since Update 21.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyvyanne Source on 07-01-2014
Update 23 will bring Epic Orchard of the Macabre to DDO

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProducerRowan Source on 06-09-2014
We will definitely need to address the lack of good small shields in future content. I know we plan to have small shields and bucklers in the loot for the epic version of Orchard which would be released at the same time as these changes.

lol only if you kept reading her letter We’ll be continuing our work on the Anauroch Desert (in the Forgotten Realms), planning for Sentient Weapons, and developing another Classic Dungeon like the Haunted Halls of Eveningstar. We expect these to be something you’ll see in the first half of 2015.

Erofen
08-21-2014, 01:31 AM
The starter pack hireling is not a "gold seal" hireling. Gold seal means two things: 1.) you can summon this hireling when YOU are two levels below IT (so, yes, it's PERMANENTLY level 3 and is SUPPOSED to be) instead of requiring you to be level 3 or higher to summon it. 2.) you can summon several gold seal hirelings at the same time. That's it. They don't level. Turbine isn't responsible for you failing to understand how hirelings work. Every hireling in the game tells you what level it is. Here's what the starter pack says about this hireling:

Permanent Cleric Hireling
(Bound to Account, 1 per DDO game world)
Every new adventurer can use a hand! Enhance your journey with Elieri Thistledown, a Level 3 Hireling. Elieri’s spells can cure wounds, remove paralysis, and much more. Can be used by characters level 3 or higher.

Please point me to where it says "this hireling levels with you".
Nowhere in his text did he say it should level with you. And he was stating you should be able to use it as level 1 to match up with the current ddo market gold seal hires which are their level -2 as ML. The panther and owlbears are this way and there is 0 reason why the cleric should not be. It sure is a fun hire, but at level 3 only for use it becomes lackluster.

As for my little green kobold friend I hope to be there If i can find the lamma client again. :)

dx8976
08-21-2014, 02:04 AM
If i may, what specific fixes are you waiting for from the Haunted Halls loot?

It would be nice if the magestar actually gave 15 charges when upgraded like the description says instead of just 10...

Erofen
08-21-2014, 02:37 AM
It would be nice if the magestar actually gave 15 charges when upgraded like the description says instead of just 10...
^This please.

XbaileyX
08-21-2014, 02:46 AM
Excited :) Best time in the game, new raids, friends from all servers and shiny loots!!

Stop complaining till after you see the fail, your ruining my buzz.

Rinveron
08-21-2014, 03:18 AM
been trying to find it but what time is Lamannia coming up today ?

patang01
08-21-2014, 06:21 AM
The starter pack hireling is not a "gold seal" hireling. Gold seal means two things: 1.) you can summon this hireling when YOU are two levels below IT (so, yes, it's PERMANENTLY level 3 and is SUPPOSED to be) instead of requiring you to be level 3 or higher to summon it. 2.) you can summon several gold seal hirelings at the same time. That's it. They don't level. Turbine isn't responsible for you failing to understand how hirelings work. Every hireling in the game tells you what level it is. Here's what the starter pack says about this hireling:

Permanent Cleric Hireling
(Bound to Account, 1 per DDO game world)
Every new adventurer can use a hand! Enhance your journey with Elieri Thistledown, a Level 3 Hireling. Elieri’s spells can cure wounds, remove paralysis, and much more. Can be used by characters level 3 or higher.

Please point me to where it says "this hireling levels with you".

To be honest; it would be of more value if it was made to a permanent level 3 gold hireling, so the player could summon it as a gold hireling at level 1 (as you can regular level 3 gold hirelings). To me this hireling is of significant less value then many other packs and it was a fail in my humble opinion to make it as such. It provides little to no value in the long run, but as a level 3 gold permanent gold hireling it would be of tremendous value for any player for at least the first 5-6 levels. It was simply just a terrible design.

Jappy
08-21-2014, 08:15 AM
when will it open today what time cause im downloading the launcher now?

Rinveron
08-21-2014, 08:30 AM
when will it open today what time cause im downloading the launcher now?

ive been trying to find out but I have a feeling it will be soon:)

KookieKobold
08-21-2014, 09:13 AM
We are currently in the process of updating the server. I'll post again once it's complete and open.

Additionally, we will be wiping the character database of Lamannia with this update to allow fresh character copies.

Rinveron
08-21-2014, 09:18 AM
We are currently in the process of updating the server. I'll post again once it's complete and open.

Additionally, we will be wiping the character database of Lamannia with this update to allow fresh character copies.

was wondering why when I tried to load it up it kept crashing pc lol :)

Jappy
08-21-2014, 10:14 AM
When will it be up???

UurlockYgmeov
08-21-2014, 10:49 AM
when will it be up???


soon™

Cordovan
08-21-2014, 10:53 AM
Lamannia is open for our first early preview of Update 23! However, our original plan to offer a preview of the raid ran into a technical snag (the system we use to teleport groups into the raid is having an issue), so instead we will be offering an early preview of the Epic Orchard of the Macabre and Epic versions of Desecrated Temple of Vol, Ghosts of Perdition, and Inferno of the Damned! We will still have an event today from 4:00 - 7:00 PM Eastern (-4 GMT), so stop on by and say hello!

NOTE: The Epic Quest-giver NPCs for the Orchard quests are not yet in, but you can speak to the Heroic NPCs and you will be able to enter the quests on Epic from the Orchard.

Forul
08-21-2014, 10:59 AM
Lamannia is open for our first early preview of Update 23! However, our original plan to offer a preview of the raid ran into a technical snag (the system we use to teleport groups into the raid is having an issue), so instead we will be offering an early preview of the Epic Orchard of the Macabre and Epic versions of Desecrated Temple of Vol, Ghosts of Perdition, and Inferno of the Damned! We will still have an event today from 4:00 - 7:00 PM Eastern (-4 GMT), so stop on by and say hello!

NOTE: The Epic Quest-giver NPCs for the Orchard quests are not yet in, but you can speak to the Heroic NPCs and you will be able to enter the quests on Epic from the Orchard.
will the raid be available if we flag for it?

HatsuharuZ
08-21-2014, 10:59 AM
Aww...

Will there be release notes put up soon? :D

Are the armor, fighter, or paladin changes up on Lammania too?

Rinveron
08-21-2014, 11:01 AM
why do I crash when I log into the game ?

Seikojin
08-21-2014, 11:02 AM
Aww...

Will there be release notes put up soon? :D

Are the armor, fighter, or paladin changes up on Lammania too?

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-8-21-14)

Cordovan
08-21-2014, 11:03 AM
Release Notes (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-(Last-Updated-8-21-14)) and Known Issues (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438924-Lamannia-Known-Issues-(Last-Updated-8-21-14)) are now available.

Seikojin
08-21-2014, 11:03 AM
why do I crash when I log into the game ?

Look for log files. They will tell you what is broken most of the time. There are some current topics in the pc-tech sub-forum which point to the log locations.

Cordovan
08-21-2014, 11:04 AM
will the raid be available if we flag for it?

You can't flag for it because the Epic version of Fleshmaker's isn't ready, sorry. We'll have a preview of the raid during an event next week, details to be announced later.

UurlockYgmeov
08-21-2014, 11:05 AM
Lamannia is open for our first early preview of Update 23! However, our original plan to offer a preview of the raid ran into a technical snag (the system we use to teleport groups into the raid is having an issue), so instead we will be offering an early preview of the Epic Orchard of the Macabre and Epic versions of Desecrated Temple of Vol, Ghosts of Perdition, and Inferno of the Damned! We will still have an event today from 4:00 - 7:00 PM Eastern (-4 GMT), so stop on by and say hello!

NOTE: The Epic Quest-giver NPCs for the Orchard quests are not yet in, but you can speak to the Heroic NPCs and you will be able to enter the quests on Epic from the Orchard.


so

NOW©

and

its all good. Release notes soon?

Minrothad
08-21-2014, 11:09 AM
What happened to the entrance to the Dojo?

Takllin
08-21-2014, 11:11 AM
Holy Retribution: Melee Channel Divinity: Executes a powerful holy strike against the target that deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage. On Damage: Evil creatures with less than 1,000 HP have a 50%/75%/100% chance to be forced to make a WIll save (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod) or be destroyed. On a successful save, the affected creature takes 100 holy damage from this attack as well as -6 to all ability scores for ten seconds. (Cooldown: 6 seconds)

From the release notes that were just posted.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-%28Last-Updated-8-21-14%29

So does this mean that it will no longer regenerate a use of Smite Evil? Or is this just a mistype?

pa7ryk
08-21-2014, 11:14 AM
Dojo door is not here Could a Dev please spawn it?

Rinveron
08-21-2014, 11:17 AM
any idea why im crashing when I try and log in ?

ReaperAlexEU
08-21-2014, 11:33 AM
Holy SwordEvocation (Good spells)
Paladin 4
Components: Verbal, Somatic
Metamagic: Quicken
Range: Touch
Target: Self
Duration: 1 minute per caster level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Cooldown: 3 seconds
Channels holy power to increase the effectiveness of your weapons. Any weapon you are wielding gains an additional +2 holy bonus to its enhancement value and +1[W]. The spell also gives a +1 Competence bonus to the threat range, and critical weapon multiplier of the weapon.
now adds +1(W). The spell now enhances the equipped weapon of the Paladin, and lasts one minute per level of Paladin.

is the crit multi supposed to be in? cos it's not applying to my khopesh, still at a *3 multi

also i assume the cleave enhancements are not supposed to qualify us for momentum swing? hehe, that would be a little too good :)

Forul
08-21-2014, 11:41 AM
It looks like MRR is also reducing incoming healing

Forul
08-21-2014, 11:43 AM
It also looks like instead of card crunchers not going into bags magical d20's arent

Delacroix21
08-21-2014, 11:44 AM
The door to the dojo is gone, cant test without it. =(

Delacroix21
08-21-2014, 11:46 AM
is the crit multi supposed to be in? cos it's not applying to my khopesh, still at a *3 multi

also i assume the cleave enhancements are not supposed to qualify us for momentum swing? hehe, that would be a little too good :)

Why wouldnt they qualify you for momentum swing? They should.


Basically you are paying enhancement points for feats as paladins are feat starved, seems fair to me.

Ovrad
08-21-2014, 11:47 AM
Additionally, we will be wiping the character database of Lamannia with this update to allow fresh character copies.

Damn it, Cordovan JUST said there would be no wipe 3 days ago. I was expecting the copy of my main to still be there, but now I just TRed him yesterday.


We've been talking about this and the current thought is to NOT do a character wipe for our Update 23 preview, coming soontm.

Well count me out for the preview, I'm not gonna run this at lv 1... Please try to be consistent with info.

Delacroix21
08-21-2014, 11:49 AM
Damn it, Cordovan JUST said there would be no wipe 3 days ago. I was expecting the copy of my main to still be there, but now I just TRed him yesterday.



Well count me out for the preview, I'm not gonna run this at lv 1... Please try to be consistent with info.

Ummmm... you DO realize the test dojo will level you to 28 instantly right?

ahpook
08-21-2014, 11:54 AM
I was excited to see Update 23 was on Lamannia and we could see what is in store.

I jumped right into release notes to get all the info I could and first thing I saw was Epic Orchard of the Macabre. :(:(

Don't get me wrong, I really like the orchard. But I have played it a lot. I am really tired of getting rehashed content that we have played to death as an update. I scanned through the rest of the release notes but I can't say I actually read much because I really didn't care.

If I had a time machine, it would now be a tough choice whether I would go back in time and kill baby Hitler or the Producer who thought that rehashing old content as Epic was a valid form of "new content". ( Don't worry, that's hyperbole. The choice is actually obvious).

Ovrad
08-21-2014, 11:55 AM
Ummmm... you DO realize the test dojo will level you to 28 instantly right?

And all my gear won't be there cause the TR cache doesn't copy. So I'd have to burden my lv 1 toon on live with about 2-3 full inv tabs of unusable gear before copying it, then deal with the lack of item space for the whole life. No thanks.

Esgilioth
08-21-2014, 12:00 PM
Dojo door isn't there, can a dev come and place one there? thanks

ReaperAlexEU
08-21-2014, 12:06 PM
It looks like MRR is also reducing incoming healing

yeah, my healing is greatly reduced too. for a sanity check i cast consecrate for a fixed hp heal tick, it was 97/tick with my tower shield on and 105 with my tower shield off. heal scroll was 112 with the tower shield and 121 with no shield

think i might need to halt my build testing there as with a 50% reduction in healing (102 MRR with shield) it's gonna be hard surviving in EE's to compare LD to DC!

gonna go tinker with some other bits

moo_cow
08-21-2014, 12:14 PM
So thf and swf get melee power and twf gets nothing?

KookieKobold
08-21-2014, 12:18 PM
The dojo door and the guide are now working as they should be!

ReaperAlexEU
08-21-2014, 12:22 PM
is the crit multi supposed to be in? cos it's not applying to my khopesh, still at a *3 multi

crit multi seems to be working fine, just a display issue on the inventory readout.

many kobolds were harmed in the testing of this, though not in the water works so at least they wont remember

Delacroix21
08-21-2014, 12:26 PM
yeah, my healing is greatly reduced too. for a sanity check i cast consecrate for a fixed hp heal tick, it was 97/tick with my tower shield on and 105 with my tower shield off. heal scroll was 112 with the tower shield and 121 with no shield

think i might need to halt my build testing there as with a 50% reduction in healing (102 MRR with shield) it's gonna be hard surviving in EE's to compare LD to DC!

gonna go tinker with some other bits


Yep its effecting positive healing as well, but thankfully not repair.


BTW did you know repair amp actually INCREASES rust damage from rusties etc.? Thats some bad coding there.

mrunlimited
08-21-2014, 12:42 PM
Hey I downloaded the test server and installed/updated and when i try to log in it gives me an error saying game data files cannot be opened. Check to see if they exist and that you can write to them.

I tried uninstalling and reinstalling to a different location only to have the same issue.

patang01
08-21-2014, 12:44 PM
Took me over an hour to download, can't get in, 201 error

sigh

mrunlimited
08-21-2014, 12:47 PM
Took me over an hour to download, can't get in, 201 error

sigh

Same error message for me

patang01
08-21-2014, 01:06 PM
Same error message for me

I checked and the 201 error (according to Turbine support) can be due to missing DAT files. I checked and it looks like the high res stuff is missing according to the list. So I opened the launcher and the settings and there's a setting to use high res that was not checked. I'm checking it now and it looks like it's downloading the high res stuff. I'll see if that will change things - if so the errror is from the launcher looking for high res DAT files.

slarden
08-21-2014, 01:07 PM
You can't flag for it because the Epic version of Fleshmaker's isn't ready, sorry. We'll have a preview of the raid during an event next week, details to be announced later.

We just ran it EE a few minutes ago. No loot dropped but it worked.

Shade_z
08-21-2014, 01:16 PM
Deflect arrows in SB not fixed :(

LrdSlvrhnd
08-21-2014, 02:27 PM
NOTE: The Epic Quest-giver NPCs for the Orchard quests are not yet in, but you can speak to the Heroic NPCs and you will be able to enter the quests on Epic from the Orchard.

No. Nonononononononono. No. Just no.

Do NOT go with the GH model of different quest-givers for heroic and epic. ESPECIALLY do not go with the GH model of being able to enter one version if you have the other version without some notice given. I got burned my first time flagging for FoT because I didn't realize that they had different questgivers. I had the heroic, I went in on Epic with a group, I got no redbox notice because the game saw I had the heroic quest started, I went to pick up Tor... and I couldn't. Ended up having to redbox Tor. Which means I couldn't then do FoT with that group, because even though I'd *done* all four quests on EH, I was still not flagged.

I suspect that the same would be the case for 3BC, but at least the two new epic questgivers are right next to the chaingiver and not scattered all over the place like in GH. And like in Necro, as I recall.

Please, for the love of Lolth, or Lady of Vol, or LoB, or whoever: Go the Wheloon/Storm Horns route. One quest-giver per quest. UNLESS the quests have actually different entrances, that's all you need. You clearly have the mechanics to distinguish whether you've run somethingon heroic or elite (as proven by sagas and also Wheloon/SH giving proper end rewards) so please, USE THEM.

LrdSlvrhnd
08-21-2014, 03:32 PM
Some questions about the Release Notes:


Airships:

Yay for pets being able to use the buff bar! But I see nothing about fixing getting individual buffs "below decks" after switching out amenities. Any news on this?

Will legacy buffs still be available?


A new amenity is available called Guild Storage! The amenity is available in several tiers, and offers a general chest in addition to a chest that can only be used by guild officers and leaders.

Is this considered a Hold Room, a State Room, or something else entirely? If not the latter, what happens to the items in the chest if the guild storage gets put away or switched out for another amenity?


Enhancements:
Assassin
Venomed Blades now scales with 200% Melee Power.

Will this affect using it ranged? (my rogue/arti uses it with his repeater; my ranger/rogue uses it and sometimes whips out a Pinion). I'm not saying it *should*, I'm just wondering.


Greater Single Weapon Fighting: You now apply 50% more of your appropriate ability score to your damage.

Aww, but I just finally ETR'd my bard into a SWF swashbuckler! I don't wanna lose the double damage! *g*


Swashbuckler:

Skirmisher currently uses the same icon as Cocoon, at least in the buff bar, even though it has a different icon in the enhancements panel. Any plans on fixing that?


Fatesinger, Divine Crusader, Unyielding Sentinel, Grandmaster of Flowers, Legendary Dreadnaught, Shadowdancer, Fury of the Wild, and Primal Avatar now grant +5 Melee Power for every innate ability obtained.

YAY for adding Fatesinger to the list!


Shadowdancer:
Shadow Training I through V

Was there supposed to be more here?


Hirelings

Just a general "OOH!" here. I still would like a "don't EVER attack, just heal" option, but maybe that can be done with the toggles? I can't count how many times I've parked a hireling back a bit before engaging something (such as, say, a dragon), hoping (in vain) it'll stick around in range to heal, but out of the monster's AoE lol


Hirelings and pets will attempt to use nearby rest shrines if not in combat, not passive, and low on either health of spell points.

How about resurrection shrines? I've had cases where another player brought a stone to a shrine and dropped it, or like in HH I had Garrett trigger the trapped door thinking he'd be safe, and had to run back to the start to pick him up.


A Hireling and class pet's "Come to Me" button now teleports the hireling or pet to your character.

So no more "run through the traps and then teleport"? Or better yet, "run through half the quest, get within 20 feet, and THEN teleport"? Nice!


Eldritch Card Crunchers can no longer be put into the Classic D&D Anniversary Bag, but can be placed into banks.

...I... just can't even begin to see what problem this could possibly solve. Are people duping the crunchers? And if so... why? I *like* having everything in one bag, taking up one slot!


Combat Mastery and Exceptional Combat Mastery effects on items have been renamed to Insightful Combat Mastery to better reflect what they do. This is a text change only, as these effects were already Insight bonuses.

Less confusion is always good! More transparency in the DCs involved is even better!


Monster AI has been improved to make them more efficient at filtering out things that they are not interested in to improve performance in densely populated areas.

Please tell me this translates to less instant/unavoidable red alert in certain areas? (a couple of endfights in Wheloon come to mind, as do other quests where you can draw aggro/wake stuff up that you can't get to, and that can't get to you)


The XP Bonus for disarming traps has been increased to 10/20/30%.

WHOO!


Any character level 20 or above can now receive any level 20 or above quest, and enter any dungeon with a base CR of 20 or higher. This removes previous conditions that could prevent a lower-level Epic-level character from entering a much higher-level Epic dungeon, for example.

WHOO! So this means my L21 can go get killed in Thunderholme? *g*


Crystal Cove
Euphonia's Barter Box now has recipes to exchange one type of Doubloon for another. The exchange is seven to one in any direction.

WHOO! And now for the obvious question: When's it returning? *g*


New gems have been added to allow for the creation of new items. Opals and Malachites can appear in CR 20-23 instances of the mining challenge.

*sigh* Just what the game needed... more ings. To quote kobolds: Really? REALLY??


Level 24 versions of Crystal Cove items are now available! The items also have up to three tiers of upgrades.

WHOO! Any plans for L28, though?


Hold for Reinforcements
This quest no longer has a failure condition. Coyle now only suffers incapacitating damage once he is below zero hit points. Players are now awarded optional XP for completing the dungeon without Coyle being incapacitated.
The base XP of the quest has been increased by 1216 XP. The new optional objective is worth 50% of the base.

This is freakin' awesome! Does knocking Coyle out count as incapacitated, or does it only count if he takes enough damage?


The Pirates of the Thunder Sea heroic saga is now repeatable, and on a three-day raid timer.

Whoo!


Bags and bank UIs are no longer exclusionary.

WHOO! What about bag/AH and bank/AH? (and mailbox, for that matter). The way I have my ship's cargo hold set up, I can have any combo of this except bank/mailbox. I'd love to be able to be looking at stuff in the AH and go "Ooh, that's nice... let me check my bank to see if it's better than the similar item I have banked for when I level up."


There is now an icon that displays above a character's head when the character has negative levels.

Nice; this should help clerics wanting to burst after a beholder fight and similar.


The Who list will now load the first time you select the tab, rather than during character log in.

Nice; this sounds like it should make logging in faster (and maybe even help with the initial log-in crash, maybe?)

All in all, sounds like a lot of quality of life fixes along with all the new stuff!

poltt48
08-21-2014, 04:42 PM
Okay you guys really need to fix the bug that MRR reduces how much your healed that not going to work at all.

mrunlimited
08-21-2014, 04:43 PM
Since having the error 201 issue, i tried uninstalling and reinstalling(again), now the launcher will not even being to download files for the test server.

Seikojin
08-21-2014, 04:46 PM
Took me over an hour to download, can't get in, 201 error

sigh


Same error message for me

Delete the dat files and do over. Also check the box to not use Akami. May help, but take longer. In the pc tech forums there is info on the 201 error.

LuKaSu
08-21-2014, 04:57 PM
It looks like MRR is also reducing incoming healing


Yep its effecting positive healing as well, but thankfully not repair.


BTW did you know repair amp actually INCREASES rust damage from rusties etc.? Thats some bad coding there.

I'm pretty much just quoting these because, in my opinion, those are two bugs that NEED to be stomped before anything else makes it to live. (I know, everyone already knows that, but I wanted to say it too!)

EDIT: Although, the way that Construct Essence works, it may take some doing to make repair amp uncouple from damage from Rust Monsters and the Deconstruct spell(s). Maybe just use a code that says, "Take the minimum between 100% and repair vulnerability." That way, for Construct Essence users, they will still be risking more repair vulnerability as they become more Construct-like, but it wouldn't make it worse for the already-pure-construct Warforged

the_one_dwarfforged
08-21-2014, 06:21 PM
why is swf getting a melee power buff? i thought the whole point of giving that same buff to thf was so it could compete with swf...

either give all fighting styles this buff to be fair, or just give it to thf so it can compete with swf.

please please please tell me this was just a typo.

9001
08-21-2014, 06:27 PM
why is swf getting a melee power buff? i thought the whole point of giving that same buff to thf was so it could compete with swf...

either give all fighting styles this buff to be fair, or just give it to thf so it can compete with swf.

please please please tell me this was just a typo.

The extra modifier bonus went from +100% to +50% though, don't forget that.

Scrabbler
08-21-2014, 07:03 PM
Stand Your Ground will now make a hireling only perform ranged attacks (if the hireling has a ranged attack.)
Why nerf hireling behavior like that? You can no longer leave a hireling (or pet!?) in a location (like a kobold mine) where it will fight against monsters that show up.

jakeelala
08-21-2014, 08:46 PM
Devs:

You've stealthed Nerfed Legendary Dreadnught for AA's who currently can use blitz by only making it Melee speel power. Whoever convinced you to do this on the Players Council made a huge mistake. There's no need to make Ranged fall behind to Melee in one feel swoop. That's not balance it's over balance.

Also all the other destiny's getting melee power boosts for off-destiny leveling: I've got news you it sucks for Ranged/Throwing to level all of the off destinies from Shiradi or Fury also.

Where's the passive Ranged Power boost? You are not viable in EE as a Ranged/Thrower build out of destiny. This is dumb.

Delacroix21
08-21-2014, 09:20 PM
Are the shield dps trees part of Update 23 (coming later) or are they update 24?

Scrabbler
08-21-2014, 10:26 PM
Where's the passive Ranged Power boost? You are not viable in EE as a Ranged/Thrower build out of destiny. This is dumb.
Yes, these passive ~70 Melee Power from Epic Destinies are a big deal! Playing in a destiny mis-matching your character concept used to be somewhat bad, but now it will be terrible.

If they want Epic characters to get a big bonus to melee power, that feature should be added only to Epic levels. The Epic Destinies are already plenty attractive without having a strong-but-boring passive bonus tossed into them.

LrdSlvrhnd
08-21-2014, 11:28 PM
Why nerf hireling behavior like that? You can no longer leave a hireling (or pet!?) in a location (like a kobold mine) where it will fight against monsters that show up.

Ooh, dang, I hadn't thought of that. This is why I want a dedicated "stand here and heal" option on the healer hires.

Maybe "Stand Your Ground + Defensive" = ranged/heal only, and "Stand Your Ground + Aggressive" = full-on attack?


Devs:

You've stealthed Nerfed Legendary Dreadnught for AA's who currently can use blitz by only making it Melee speel power. Whoever convinced you to do this on the Players Council made a huge mistake. There's no need to make Ranged fall behind to Melee in one feel swoop. That's not balance it's over balance.

You mean they're "stealth-nerfing" something that's currently not WAI to begin with by making it so it's WAI? Yeah, that's not much of an argument. "Activate For 15 seconds, you gain +50% dodge and deal +25% melee damage. Any time you kill an opponent while under the effects of Master's Blitz, you gain an additional stack of the Idamage bonus and restart the duration." This is how it's currently written. Melee. Not ranged. People had fun with it while it was working; don't complain if they're fixing it, be grateful for the time you had.

Now, if you want to argue that how it's working on live is how it *should* be... well, that's another argument entirely. (One which I also happen to think is wrong, given how melee-oriented LD is to begin with, and how few tactical feats can even be done holding a ranged weapon. But still, another argument entirely.)

the_one_dwarfforged
08-22-2014, 04:07 AM
The extra modifier bonus went from +100% to +50% though, don't forget that.

i didnt notice that, but i wonder which will be more powerful.

at 70 [stat], current swf gives an extra 30 points of damage per swing.

with the new swf, itll be an extra 15 points, plus 20% more damage from having 20 melee power.

clearly this new version is more beneficial the lower your damage stat is, and i think its more beneficial all around if you have good base damage.

assuming base damage would be 115 with current swf and 70 damage stat, the new version will drop that base damage to 100 (lose 15 extra modifier), but get buffed to 120 because of 1.2 melee power multiplier. so it seems like its still a buff to me but maybe i did that wrong and admittedly its going to be a nerf at some points of a characters life, but not at the important ones i think.

FlaviusMaximus
08-22-2014, 04:37 AM
I noticed in the release notes that the tier 5 KOTC ability Holy Retribution does not have a Smite regenerating aspect to it. Is this a typo or is it accurate?

I wont have time to get on Lamannia to check, so any info. is appreciated.

poltt48
08-22-2014, 04:50 AM
Okay blitz now sucks I could not get it over 3 stacks. Now 10% chance per hit to proc another stack but my bard crits for 1500 and 200 sonic and 3 or 4 other procs for 50-120 damage. Probly pushing 3-4k damage per second on her now. I kill stuff way to fast to build up a stack. On bosses not much better tried it and got 3 stacks and got stunned for 15 seconds timed out after that without ever procing again in 30 seconds. You got to be kidding me it was so much better when done by killing stuff.

Eth
08-22-2014, 05:28 AM
Devs:

You've stealthed Nerfed Legendary Dreadnught for AA's who currently can use blitz by only making it Melee speel power.
Not entirely true. Masters Blitz itself gives you up to 100 ranged power. It's still a lot less than before of course.

BDog77
08-22-2014, 06:08 AM
Since having the error 201 issue, i tried uninstalling and reinstalling(again), now the launcher will not even being to download files for the test server.

OK, this might sound weird, but when this happened to me, I shut down the launcher, then killed the 2 netsessions running in my process list (kill the small one first or it will respawn the big one). Restart the launcher, and the Akami eula will eventually appear. Don't accept it, just allow it to sit there (whenever I accepted it, it would stop the DL, but it would eventually pop up again, and restart the DL). Eventually, it said the launcher quit responding (but it DLed a bunch of stuff by then), I then restarted the launcher, and it finished the patch without Akami, and then I could get to Lammania (finally).

GL!

sudzz
08-22-2014, 06:29 AM
I seem to have lost availability to Haunted Halls, has this area been closed or is it just me? I had access before the wipe.

LuKaSu
08-22-2014, 07:38 AM
1) Paladin light damage. Can someone verify if this works with ranged attacks? Also, if Holy Sword works with ranged? If they do, this might open up some fun possibilities.


2) In the preview, the KotC Cleave and Great Cleave alternative enhancements had better W's than the feats which rhey replaced. On the Release Notes, both have a +1 W. Which is correct?

(Edit, #2 has been confirmed a typo in the release notes)

3) Also on the preview, in comments, it said there would be no feat requirements for Overwhelming Crit. In the Release, it just says no Great Cleave. Is Cleave a prereq now?

4) One more preview thing. It says that the Sacred Defender auto-self-heal from tier five costs two LoH as well as two Turn Undeads. I thought in the preview comments, it said that this was just a typo, and only costed the turn undeads. Can you confirm?

5) So it doesn't look like the Divine Grace saves cap made it into the release notes. Is that off the table now?

Kalevor
08-22-2014, 09:24 AM
Things i've seen that seems a bug to me:

1) something is wrong with healing... i think is the new MRR, in the description its said that reduce positive incoming "damage" ...

2) defensive stance from pally doesn't apply when you carry an orb... i wear heavy armor.

3) when using cleaves from KotC sometimes one of them don't came out if used too quickly ...



kal

P.S: not a bug, but holy retribution should not regen a smite?

Doutrinador
08-22-2014, 10:13 AM
TWF will not receive melee power?
An barbs? No MMR? no Melee power?

Scrabbler
08-22-2014, 11:11 AM
I see the devs are adjusting how players can control what spells a hireling will cast. Here's one related major problem they could look at:
Hirelings with Restoration or Greater Restoration spells will not use them to fix negative levels. The only way to convince them to fix a negative level is by getting hit with Ray of Fatigue or something similar.
This would be kinda a big deal given the attacks used by monsters in the new Epic Orchard.

G_Lich
08-22-2014, 11:16 AM
Radiant Servant aura causes Deific Diadem to provide a constant +2 Conjuration bonus. Not great considering clerics can't cast web. Not a huge deal, but the +2 DC to necro would be fun - Just can't take that specific T5. Since this effect also has the benefit of maintaining the Empyrean Magic and Celestial Fervor depending on choices, it shouldn't be "fixed" if it breaks those 2 things. Quells are already going to be giving divines a hard time.

Scrabbler
08-22-2014, 11:21 AM
Radiant Servant aura causes Deific Diadem to provide a constant +2 Conjuration bonus. Not great considering clerics can't cast web.
An ongoing effect (like radiant aura or FVS archon) should not count for triggering things that happen when you cast a spell. Your character is not casting a spell every 2 seconds for 5 minutes... he cast one spell 5 minutes ago, and the duration lasted until now.

XbaileyX
08-22-2014, 11:27 AM
First and foremost I would like to say thank to whoever worked on loot. Very well done. We have a few toss away items but overall, impressive. Thank you!

My concerns:
- Not sure if it was intended or mrr/prr scaling was just way off but EE was way easier than EE Stormhorns currently is. Concerning since these quests were 31 on EE.
- EE Cinnis did zero spell damage. His physical damage was there but he wasn't hitting with spells at all.
- Healing being reduced by MRR, best grief of the night, almost as impressive as the lord of bears.
- No EE LotD, not a big deal as I would sacrifice it for the raid 10x over, but sad to see it didn't make the cut.
- Why was the shroud of the abbot turned into a scarf? If it was being changed from a outfit wouldn't it make more since to fill it as a cloak, since we didn't get that either?

Things I loved:
- Ice elementals now shrink like golems!
- Puzzle rare in slayer area.
- Addition of samari to slayers. They rocked.
- Werewolves were a much better fit to orchard than harpies were to 3bc :P
- Loots!!!! Im looking at you boots, goggles, belt, helm and litany. The choices now available were much needed. These items give the freedom of a no longer best in slot or at least let us have a few choices for gear setup and still be optimal.
- Potion of wonder to shrink me on live please and thank you.
- Mrr was way buggy but the idea rocks so im including it. *hopes numbers get sorted before release*

Thank for all the efforts and cant waitron preview the raid!

XbaileyX
08-22-2014, 11:37 AM
Edit:
I cant seem to get the edit button to work?

Possible bug?
-Being quelled was doing weird things with spells. Sla cacoon was working, but sla magic missle and chain missles were not. The same arcane spells non slas were working fine.

Question:
- Are we going to be able to remove the taint of evil from Epic Litany? Didn't see a option in the crafting device.

Thanks again.

Ryethiel
08-22-2014, 11:44 AM
It looks like you guys fixed the Conjure Bolts Scrolls on Lamannia!! Thank you so, SO much!!! Now I can finally make that Repeater Build I had in mind, without Artificer levels! :D

*Dances*

Glascanon
08-22-2014, 12:32 PM
If i may, what specific fixes are you waiting for from the Haunted Halls loot?

Most of the items where intended to have different stats then they actually have after upgrading them with Blackstones.
Two of the items got fixed in an update with the promise that the other stuff gets fixed too.

The PDK Shield for example was intended to have 30% energy absorption while blocking (after upgrading the item) instead of 15%.

The Magestaar trinket was intended to heal the wearer every time it absorbs a spell.

Gues it was the Libram and the manual witch got an hotfix

Annyee
08-22-2014, 12:32 PM
1) Paladin light damage. Can someone verify if this works with ranged attacks? Also, if Holy Sword works with ranged? If they do, this might open up some fun possibilities.



(Edit, #2 has been confirmed a typo in the release notes)

3) Also on the preview, in comments, it said there would be no feat requirements for Overwhelming Crit. In the Release, it just says no Great Cleave. Is Cleave a prereq now?

4) One more preview thing. It says that the Sacred Defender auto-self-heal from tier five costs two LoH as well as two Turn Undeads. I thought in the preview comments, it said that this was just a typo, and only costed the turn undeads. Can you confirm?

5) So it doesn't look like the Divine Grace saves cap made it into the release notes. Is that off the table now?

Holy Sword will apply to current weapon. It works like deadly on self target only.

LuKaSu
08-22-2014, 01:21 PM
Holy Sword will apply to current weapon. It works like deadly on self target only.

Yeah, I was just wanting to make sure that Holy Sword and the Light xd6 damages worked while using Ranged weapons as well.

Bernaise
08-22-2014, 03:05 PM
Ugh. My Characters got wiped. Hope others don't have this problem :(

Forul
08-22-2014, 05:25 PM
Stalwart stances are not working with TWF is this WAI?

Altrelo
08-22-2014, 06:00 PM
Stalwart Defender Stance currently requires 6 levels of Fighter, even though it says in the Release notes that you only need 3 levels of Fighter for it. Overbalance still has the 3 levels of Fighter requirement.
Edit: Can the Tier 4 Core for Unyielding Sentinel also grant a bonus to MRR, both the passive and Unbreakable add-on?

Free2Pay
08-23-2014, 03:57 AM
None of the changes to heavy armor met my expectations. I said previously the 3 heroic (mind you they are non epic quests) benchmark quests are Elite Enter the Kobold, Elite A New Invasion and Subterrance. My 16 Fighter/2Pal/2Rog in Unyielding Sentinel 5 still die to them. So the only verdict I can give now is : EPIC FAIL.

Thar
08-23-2014, 08:28 AM
None of the changes to heavy armor met my expectations. I said previously the 3 heroic (mind you they are non epic quests) benchmark quests are Elite Enter the Kobold, Elite A New Invasion and Subterrance. My 16 Fighter/2Pal/2Rog in Unyielding Sentinel 5 still die to them. So the only verdict I can give now is : EPIC FAIL.

if you can't solo these then you need more healing. If i can solo EE on my barb/fighter with cocoon, you can do these. If i can do the dragon in don't drink the water EE with NO healing, then there is a problem. It's too overpowered is the problem.

Elite should be for groups not solo. This update is broken and will be the end of the game when half the population is bored it's too easy.

Grosbeak07
08-23-2014, 09:21 AM
Ugh. My Characters got wiped. Hope others don't have this problem :(

Everyone did.

Copy a new one over from live or make one in the dojo.

Standal
08-23-2014, 10:13 AM
if you can't solo these then you need more healing. If i can solo EE on my barb/fighter with cocoon, you can do these. If i can do the dragon in don't drink the water EE with NO healing, then there is a problem. It's too overpowered is the problem.

Elite should be for groups not solo. This update is broken and will be the end of the game when half the population is bored it's too easy.

This is my opinion also. My PRR is up, I have some MRR, and my damage is through the roof. It's way too much.

Zafaron
08-23-2014, 10:02 PM
So, I can't tell if this has been answered already but... do all of the various melee power bonus from different fighting styles stack? Or do those melee power bonuses only apply while fighting with one particular style? For example, could a single class fighter with a ton of extra feats simply take ALL of the different melee style feats for a huge damage bonus to melee?

Free2Pay
08-23-2014, 10:14 PM
if you can't solo these then you need more healing. If i can solo EE on my barb/fighter with cocoon, you can do these. If i can do the dragon in don't drink the water EE with NO healing, then there is a problem. It's too overpowered is the problem.

Elite should be for groups not solo. This update is broken and will be the end of the game when half the population is bored it's too easy.

Alright the main reason of me dying was the level drains. Just tried again today with a hireling with deathward and managed to complete Elite A New Invasion. Apart from casting deathward on me, I just parked the hireling and didn't bring him along in the final fight. Subterrance main threat was the living harm spell that kept spamming enveration. So the last benchmark quest left is Elite Enter the Kobold which I haven't cleared yet. Will report back once it's been done/not done.

Free2Pay
08-23-2014, 11:40 PM
Just barely made it through Elite Enter the Kobold and but still made it nonetheless. But it was the tough with combination of fireshield, heal scrolls, renewal, cocoon and hire spamming heals, but in heavy armor so I'll give this heavy armor upgrade a PASS.

Gremmlynn
08-24-2014, 06:52 AM
So, I can't tell if this has been answered already but... do all of the various melee power bonus from different fighting styles stack? Or do those melee power bonuses only apply while fighting with one particular style? For example, could a single class fighter with a ton of extra feats simply take ALL of the different melee style feats for a huge damage bonus to melee?They are all the same type, so only the highest value will apply.

ReaperAlexEU
08-24-2014, 08:11 AM
None of the changes to heavy armor met my expectations. I said previously the 3 heroic (mind you they are non epic quests) benchmark quests are Elite Enter the Kobold, Elite A New Invasion and Subterrance. My 16 Fighter/2Pal/2Rog in Unyielding Sentinel 5 still die to them. So the only verdict I can give now is : EPIC FAIL.

on live my lvl28 pure S&B paly in DC had to burn through the LoH's to get through elite enter the kobold. on lama he did not have to heal once.

so the changes will help you, keep working on improving your character and you should become a lot more sturdy.

ReaperAlexEU
08-24-2014, 08:12 AM
So, I can't tell if this has been answered already but... do all of the various melee power bonus from different fighting styles stack? Or do those melee power bonuses only apply while fighting with one particular style? For example, could a single class fighter with a ton of extra feats simply take ALL of the different melee style feats for a huge damage bonus to melee?

nope they don't stack, there is a dev post about this somewhere to clarify so it's not guess work!

ReaperAlexEU
08-24-2014, 08:23 AM
Just barely made it through Elite Enter the Kobold and but still made it nonetheless. But it was the tough with combination of fireshield, heal scrolls, renewal, cocoon and hire spamming heals, but in heavy armor so I'll give this heavy armor upgrade a PASS.

have you looked into divine crusader for healing instead of cocoon? it gives a lot of AoE dps even in a fire quest (% of mobs remaining hp per 3 second tick at least, 10% phys dmg and about 300 dmg split between fire and good if you get the lvl24 combustion augment from the GH vendors). the healing from consecration has become my main healing source (above CSW, LoH and heal scrolls) and i'm working on getting it in as a twist for when i'm in off destinies.

also don't forget healing is bugged at the moment with MRR reducing incoming heals, so that will have made your fight harder.

as a long term goal you can also twist in energy sheath from draconic, that is far better than fireshield scrolls and with a quick reset you can also change the element it resists. i used that to solo TOD, set it to cold for tanking the shades. it's not a permenant twist, just one i slot in when i know there will be heavy elemental damage.

also are you a shield user or just a heavy plate user? maybe try it again with a shield to see if double the MRR helps make the fight easier.

as i've already posted the difference between live and lama in elite kobold is quite astounding, from near chaining LoH's to not needing a single heal button (got a bit from trash that died near me, you get their CR back as healing when they die in DC). i know you're not going to be as rugged as a lvl28 at lvl20 (just that DR60 shadow armour is a massive boost) but i'll bet there is plenty you can work on to make your char more durable.

Silverleafeon
08-24-2014, 01:34 PM
New loot cabinet is not working today for players to test the new loot, please reactivate, thank you.
Fortunately I grabbed most of what I wanted on day one.

B0ltdrag0n
08-24-2014, 02:32 PM
Your MRR calculation seems to be bugged or you haven nto scaled your new mobs right (im leaning toward the latter.) I believe there is a decimal place shift as monster spells in many areas seem to be doing 10x less damage based on my current MRR than I predicted. It could also be that those spells somehow got broken as well.

Melee Power - overall I love the change. I do think it might be *slightly* above the curve at the moment in affecting things, but honestly I think if you simply increased monster density about 10-20% in the new quests and fixed whatever seems to be wrong with MRR then people complaining that things die to quickly will either hush up, change their tune, or continue complaining as the were going to anyway.

Blitzing seems off somehow I think that it gets double base benefit from Melee Power...I.E. 55 from tree as opposed to other trees getting 30 might be part of the problem. Max blitz going down and changing the proc rate from 10% on hit (with what seems to be a 1 sec delay between getting stacks) to a 15-20% chance on hit with a 2 sec delay will help people actually see their charge build quicker and get less angry about it...of course most of those peopel think monster are dying too quickly already.

Despite all this. I think the changes are generally good so far. Melee Power could probably tweak down slightly. I personally think all the bonuses should be cut in half.
I.E. a full Melee destiny level 28 should have 35 Melee Power...and then this number should scale to damage procs 200%. I.E. 35% extra damage to the first number and +70% total power to all proc damage effects. Of course then the paladin tree abilities which you made to scale should be additive to that for +35% first number +70% other procs +105% for light damage procs.

Last thoughts. The new quests seem fun to play, but I think your scaling is broken on them (solo scaling) as well as they must not be in a final pass for monster damage and HP ranges yet...so please do not take completely any asks for pull backs in melee power until that has been finalized (hopefully next build) so we can fully grasp those changes and give actual better feedback.

B0ltdrag0n
08-24-2014, 04:11 PM
Oh since I forgot to add to the above. You need to remove glancing hits while moving again. Twitching is by far more deformative to damage output than the melee power changes. In combination they make all other fighting styles beyond subpar.

11001
08-25-2014, 04:38 AM
Oh since I forgot to add to the above. You need to remove glancing hits while moving again. Twitching is by far more deformative to damage output than the melee power changes. In combination they make all other fighting styles beyond subpar.

Not signed.

11001
08-25-2014, 04:40 AM
Sacred defender currently requires paladin lvl 6 despite being moved to core 2 and hence should read paladin lvl 3 (same goes for stalwart defender, they do share the same problem).

KookieKobold
08-25-2014, 10:14 AM
Hey folks!

We've just closed Lamannia for this week.

Keep your eyes open for an announcement about this coming weekend's events!

InsanityIsYourFriend
08-25-2014, 10:18 AM
Oh since I forgot to add to the above. You need to remove glancing hits while moving again. Twitching is by far more deformative to damage output than the melee power changes. In combination they make all other fighting styles beyond subpar.

easy get rid of twitching, no more people taking advantage of something that shouldn't be around

Marupal
08-25-2014, 10:41 AM
Edit: moved to appropriate thread

Cetus
08-25-2014, 12:06 PM
Oh since I forgot to add to the above. You need to remove glancing hits while moving again. Twitching is by far more deformative to damage output than the melee power changes. In combination they make all other fighting styles beyond subpar.

By far?

Do you have data to support this irrational statement? Its a great perk - but nothing like the 11-13k smites I'm hitting helpless mobs with. that extra 400 points of damage I occasionally see a result of a twitching glance can't crit - so it pales in comparison to the actual front numbers being dealt.

Of course, that's a compairson vs a helpless mob using a smite, but with divine sacrifice, holy sword, etc. Glancing while moving is a moderate boost to damage - the only thing I'd change about it is for it to be part of the GTHF feat.

Only great two-handed fighters can glance while moving, regular or improved shouldn't.

Vargouille
08-25-2014, 12:26 PM
So, I can't tell if this has been answered already but... do all of the various melee power bonus from different fighting styles stack? Or do those melee power bonuses only apply while fighting with one particular style? For example, could a single class fighter with a ton of extra feats simply take ALL of the different melee style feats for a huge damage bonus to melee?

They are all the same bonus type, so they won't stack.


It looks like you guys fixed the Conjure Bolts Scrolls on Lamannia!! Thank you so, SO much!!! Now I can finally make that Repeater Build I had in mind, without Artificer levels! :D

Yes, this may have missed the release notes, but Conjure Bolts scrolls should work now. Note that to get this functioning in a timely manner, these scrolls only produce +1 Bolts; Artificers casting the real spell, not from a scroll, should work as they always have.

Vargouille
08-25-2014, 12:32 PM
Are the shield dps trees part of Update 23 (coming later) or are they update 24?

We are currently hoping to show Vanguard on Lamannia later this week.

lain5246
08-25-2014, 01:23 PM
They are all the same bonus type, so they won't stack.



Yes, this may have missed the release notes, but Conjure Bolts scrolls should work now. Note that to get this functioning in a timely manner, these scrolls only produce +1 Bolts; Artificers casting the real spell, not from a scroll, should work as they always have.

does this mean that if i qualify for the feat/feats set i can take them?

UurlockYgmeov
08-25-2014, 01:29 PM
We are currently hoping to show Vanguard on Lamannia later this week.

Sweet!
+1 communication


Yes, this may have missed the release notes, but Conjure Bolts scrolls should work now. Note that to get this functioning in a timely manner, these scrolls only produce +1 Bolts; Artificers casting the real spell, not from a scroll, should work as they always have.

small and subtle fix - but really helpful to so many. Thank you!


Hey folks!

We've just closed Lamannia for this week.

Keep your eyes open for an announcement about this coming weekend's events!

+1 Had a blast! Good times. Hopefully was some good (flat/tiny/giant) feedback (from lordofbears). :D

Thar
08-25-2014, 01:38 PM
We are currently hoping to show Vanguard on Lamannia later this week.

hoping the best was saved to last....

B0ltdrag0n
08-25-2014, 01:39 PM
By far?

Do you have data to support this irrational statement? Its a great perk -

It is not irrational. I was there when this was discussed 3.5 years ago and it was removed.
Twitch + glancing is a faster attack speed than SWF normally.

Whether a glance can crit or not is irrelevant as with each swipe of your sword (which is already faster in general) you are also getting 60% or more extra damage (i.e. the smite)
but nothing like the 11-13k smites I'm hitting helpless mobs with. that extra 400 points of damage I occasionally see a result of a twitching glance can't crit - so it pales in comparison to the actual front numbers being dealt.
Of course, that's a compairson vs a helpless mob using a smite, but with divine sacrifice, holy sword, etc. Glancing while moving is a moderate boost to damage - the only thing I'd change about it is for it to be part of the GTHF feat.


What a paladin can do with a smite is a straw man for this discussion. Of course smites hit for alot of damage and even more on helpless mobs...did anyone ever question that? No. They did not. Whether a glance can crit ( it cannot) is also irrelevant as that is still 400 pts extra damage PER SWING when twitch fighting. Now of course that 400 is your best case that you are seeing when you smite so lets say a Front number of 300 base will see a glance of 200ish. You still have nearly doubled your dps (before attack speed increase) just by twitch fighting.



Only great two-handed fighters can glance while moving, regular or improved shouldn't. If there was a way to remove actual twitch fighting (something that was said to be near impossible with the code over 3 years ago) then it would not be an issue. However, it is an issue.

UurlockYgmeov
08-25-2014, 01:46 PM
If there was a way to remove actual twitch fighting (something that was said to be near impossible with the code over 3 years ago) then it would not be an issue. However, it is an issue.

What percentage of players play with a controller? <5% (is my best guess based upon playing the game for years and asking pugs)

What percentage of players play with a controller and even know how / can do twitch fighting? 25% of that 5%.

So best guess - less than 1 in 100 players can / do twitch fight. In fact I rarely see it in the many, Many, MANY pugs I pull.

Why waste resources to fix a nominal issue? There are much better things to use those resources on that affect 100% of the players instead of the 1%.

This is like saying that since I play with a 17 button mouse that Turbine should make it so the 12 extra buttons don't work.

B0ltdrag0n
08-25-2014, 01:47 PM
Talking with some other people I'd be ok with twitch glance remaining but instead of tying it to THF feats. Tie it to the Spring Attack feat.

B0ltdrag0n
08-25-2014, 01:50 PM
What percentage of players play with a controller? <5% (is my best guess based upon playing the game for years and asking pugs)

What percentage of players play with a controller and even know how / can do twitch fighting? 25% of that 5%.

So best guess - less than 1 in 100 players can / do twitch fight. In fact I rarely see it in the many, Many, MANY pugs I pull.

You dont need a controller. It is easy to do. Most that dont either never knew how or just didnt' care enough to do so.



Why waste resources to fix a nominal issue? There are much better things to use those resources on that affect 100% of the players instead of the 1%.

This is like saying that since I play with a 17 button mouse that Turbine should make it so the 12 extra buttons don't work.

They are not wasting resources to look at and balance a mechanic they want to add. If they didn't want feedback they'd have made the change without puting it on the preview server and asking for feedback.

DagazUlf
08-25-2014, 01:58 PM
If there was a way to remove actual twitch fighting (something that was said to be near impossible with the code over 3 years ago) then it would not be an issue. However, it is an issue.

Just add a requirement of the Spring Attack feat before Glancing Blows are allowed while moving. It's clean, it's simple, and sensible. This would address a lot of your concerns I think B0ltdrag0n. Perhaps?

DagazUlf
08-25-2014, 01:59 PM
Tie it to the Spring Attack feat.

Yes, this. :p

UurlockYgmeov
08-25-2014, 01:59 PM
You dont need a controller. It is easy to do. Most that dont either never knew how or just didnt' care enough to do so.

...

They are not wasting resources to look at and balance a mechanic they want to add. If they didn't want feedback they'd have made the change without puting it on the preview server and asking for feedback.

Stands toward my point of this being a minor / trivial / moot point.

I know how to do it - and know what it looks like when somebody is doing it.

Not commenting on the feedback, just on the usefulness of the change desired by the feedback. Turbine (and well in fact everyone) has finite resources. Most players would rather see those extremely finite resources devoted to items / issues that affect more than 1% of the players 1% of the time.

B0ltdrag0n
08-25-2014, 02:03 PM
Not commenting on the feedback, just on the usefulness of the change desired by the feedback. Turbine (and well in fact) everyone has finite resources. Most players would rather see those extremely finite resources devoted to items / issues that affect more than 1% of the players 1% of the time.

I agree. I dont want to to invalidate previous time and money spent changing the first time...only to have to remove it again later on down the road. Spending the resources 3x to remove a feature seems much more wasteful to me.

droid327
08-25-2014, 02:04 PM
Yes, this may have missed the release notes, but Conjure Bolts scrolls should work now. Note that to get this functioning in a timely manner, these scrolls only produce +1 Bolts

Why wouldn't they? Scrolls is Caster Level 1, that's what you get.

Cetus
08-25-2014, 02:06 PM
It is not irrational. I was there when this was discussed 3.5 years ago and it was removed.
Twitch + glancing is a faster attack speed than SWF normally.

I was there as well. The irrational part is when you deemed glances while twitching increasing dps "by far".



What a paladin can do with a smite is a straw man for this discussion. Of course smites hit for alot of damage and even more on helpless mobs...did anyone ever question that? No. They did not.

I already conceded that this was kind of a tangential point. If you actually read what I wrote, you wouldn't have to go through these lengths to say what you just said. I merely illuminated some perspective on non-critting 400 point glances. It's not ZOMG OVERPOWERED!!!


Whether a glance can crit ( it cannot) is also irrelevant as that is still 400 pts extra damage PER SWING when twitch fighting.

there's so much wrong in this statement. 1. It's not "PER SWING" - go and test it. 2. It's absolutely not irrelevant, if it critted - then maybe you'd have a point. It does NOT crit, therefore its more in line with being useful rather than ZOMG POWERFULL!!


Now of course that 400 is your best case that you are seeing when you smite so lets say a Front number of 300 base will see a glance of 200ish. You still have nearly doubled your dps (before attack speed increase) just by twitch fighting.

Is this serious? I don't remember seeing math this bad. So with 200 point glances rolling while twitch fighting DOUBLES DPS? Are you serious with this? I crit for thousands with no blitz - a 200 point number rolling in during my twitching sequence DOUBLES my dps? Lol.


If there was a way to remove actual twitch fighting (something that was said to be near impossible with the code over 3 years ago) then it would not be an issue. However, it is an issue.

Twitch fighting is partially the reason why DDO has the greatest combat system on the market. Yea, lets remove twitch - and just automatize everyones attack chain. Yea, right.

B0ltdrag0n
08-25-2014, 02:21 PM
I was there as well. The irrational part is when you deemed glances while twitching increasing dps "by far".

A statement of opinion is not necessarily irrational sir. I am glad you were there...then you will understand why it was removed originally.




I already conceded that this was kind of a tangential point. If you actually read what I wrote, you wouldn't have to go through these lengths to say what you just said. I merely illuminated some perspective on non-critting 400 point glances. It's not ZOMG OVERPOWERED!!!

there's so much wrong in this statement. 1. It's not "PER SWING" - go and test it. 2. It's absolutely not irrelevant, if it critted - then maybe you'd have a point. It does NOT crit, therefore its more in line with being useful rather than ZOMG POWERFULL!!

You are picking apart two parts of the same comemnt chain to try and make an ad hominem attack. I congratulate your effort...unfortunately you are off base here because I was using your numbers to help with the example. AN extra blanket damage per swing regardless of the size should be looked at which I did below. Let us see wha tyou said!




Is this serious? I don't remember seeing math this bad. So with 200 point glances rolling while twitch fighting DOUBLES DPS? Are you serious with this? I crit for thousands with no blitz - a 200 point number rolling in during my twitching sequence DOUBLES my dps? Lol.

This is not bad math. Im talking base front number pre criticals, and no one crits for multiple thousands pre blitz. The only way it is bad math is when you start moving the goal posts and talking about critical hits. I realize they are a large part of damage per swing, however you fail to address my points and instead simply want to try and make the increase of 200 damage per swing (or more) as a meaningless increase. That is not a meaningless increase of damage at all. While other abilities are relevant to the discussion it doss not make my numbers (pre crit) wrong. The fact that you are using both ad hominem and a train of absurdism to try and denigrate the point is noted.

[/quote]



Twitch fighting is partially the reason why DDO has the greatest combat system on the market. Yea, lets remove twitch - and just automatize everyones attack chain. Yea, right.
No it isn't. That system is in place now. Active Combat. Not making this come back does not change the combat system we have or how great it is. The reward of yet an addition of another feature that is more easily exploited on top of what exists is not necessary.

slarden
08-25-2014, 02:23 PM
Oh since I forgot to add to the above. You need to remove glancing hits while moving again. Twitching is by far more deformative to damage output than the melee power changes. In combination they make all other fighting styles beyond subpar.

This is one of the reasons I am not playing a melee at the moment. It feels like cheating to me and it seems like melee damage is set to account for it. I don't think it's as significant as the druid melee favorable bugs, but just based on some testing I did I have to agree it's a significant boost to DPS vs. what you get playing as intended.

I should add that I care less that people do it, but it has to be factored in and should be part of the testing by the devs. I only tested it and didn't master it - it certainly seemed like a nice boost to me.

B0ltdrag0n
08-25-2014, 02:25 PM
I just do not want to see the mechanics made to help lots of people changed to be less because of the reintroduction of something that can massively abuse them at the same time...and those same people saying it makes things too easy for them.

If it had proper feat requirements as Daga above stated I'd be more ok with it...as then there would be a cost in character building for what it does.

Cetus
08-25-2014, 02:36 PM
A statement of opinion is not necessarily irrational sir. I am glad you were there...then you will understand why it was removed originally.

I was there - and I disagreed with its removal at that time. Getting penalized for playing my character dynamically and getting rewarded for standing still isn't my idea of good melee combat design.



You are picking apart two parts of the same comemnt chain to try and make an ad hominem attack. I congratulate your effort...unfortunately you are off base here because I was using your numbers to help with the example. AN extra blanket damage per swing regardless of the size should be looked at which I did below. Let us see wha tyou said!

Extra blanket damage per swing should be looked at?

Ok, then lets look at all the light damage pallies are getting, lets look at the sonic damage from the recent bard changes, let's see...lets look at holy sword, lets look at zeal, the list goes on.

Yes, this change increases THF damage, obviously. But - my testing doesn't show that's brought THF DPS into OP territory like you are spouting.



This is not bad math. Im talking base front number pre criticals, and no one crits for multiple thousands pre blitz. The only way it is bad math is when you start moving the goal posts and talking about critical hits. I realize they are a large part of damage per swing, however you fail to address my points and instead simply want to try and make the increase of 200 damage per swing (or more) as a meaningless increase. That is not a meaningless increase of damage at all. While other abilities are relevant to the discussion it doss not make my numbers (pre crit) wrong. The fact that you are using both ad hominem and a train of absurdism to try and denigrate the point is noted.



This is less ad hominem, and more an attack of your arguments. This is terrible math to say that glancing while twitches doubles DPS, no matter how you're trying to back peddle your way out of it. Glancing while twitching does not double our DPS. Period. End of story.

The increase in damage is not meaningless. Its a nice boost, but it is *NOT* as much as you are asserting.



No it isn't. That system is in place now. Active Combat. Not making this come back does not change the combat system we have or how great it is. The reward of yet an addition of another feature that is more easily exploited on top of what exists is not necessary.

Oh really? Twitching doesn't enrich our current melee combat system?

Amazing...after playing this for 8 years I thought it did. Since you know, that's kinda what kept me here all this time.

B0ltdrag0n
08-25-2014, 02:55 PM
I was there - and I disagreed with its removal at that time. Getting penalized for playing my character dynamically and getting rewarded for standing still isn't my idea of good melee combat design.


That may be however the developers at that time disagreed. Those developers were right as it made twf competitive at the time finally. Some of the newer developers may not have been there. I dont presume to know their resume though. I still find its readdition in THIS FORM to be unhealthy.



Extra blanket damage per swing should be looked at?

Ok, then lets look at all the light damage pallies are getting, lets look at the sonic damage from the recent bard changes, let's see...lets look at holy sword, lets look at zeal, the list goes on.

Yes, this change increases THF damage, obviously. But - my testing doesn't show that's brought THF DPS into OP territory like you are spouting.
More strawmen.





This is less ad hominem, and more an attack of your arguments. This is terrible math to say that glancing while twitches doubles DPS, no matter how you're trying to back peddle your way out of it. Glancing while twitching does not double our DPS. Period. End of story.
You are wrong. You did not attack the arguement with anything nor have you disproven my statement. I never said double. I said 'nearly double' 200 ish on top of a base 300 is nearly doubleing basic damage. Yes crits matter more, however not every hit is a crit and it was not what I was comparing to anyway.



The increase in damage is not meaningless. Its a nice boost, but it is *NOT* as much as you are asserting.

Yes it really is.




Oh really? Twitching doesn't enrich our current melee combat system?

Amazing...after playing this for 8 years I thought it did. Since you know, that's kinda what kept me here all this time.

That is not what I said at all. I said Active combat was the system. Twitching is a byproduct that was never intended (and even stated as such years ago) I am not opposed fully that we have it only that gaining an extra 2/3's base damage per swing flat to every swing at a faster attack rate is not something that should be given out for free to a style that is already proving to be the best style again before that...though SWF may still be so. I have to test it further next week with the changes to it in comparison.

Cetus
08-25-2014, 03:02 PM
That may be however the developers at that time disagreed. Those developers were right as it made twf competitive at the time finally. Some of the newer developers may not have been there. I dont presume to know their resume though. I still find its readdition in THIS FORM to be unhealthy.

More strawmen.



You are wrong. You did not attack the arguement with anything nor have you disproven my statement. I never said double. I said 'nearly double' 200 ish on top of a base 300 is nearly doubleing basic damage. Yes crits matter more, however not every hit is a crit and it was not what I was comparing to anyway.


Yes it really is.




That is not what I said at all. I said Active combat was the system. Twitching is a byproduct that was never intended (and even stated as such years ago) I am not opposed fully that we have it only that gaining an extra 2/3's base damage per swing flat to every swing at a faster attack rate is not something that should be given out for free to a style that is already proving to be the best style again before that...though SWF may still be so. I have to test it further next week with the changes to it in comparison.

So what you're pretty much saying is that you have no idea where the damage stands because you haven't sufficiently tested it?

Ok, I can agree with that.

LrdSlvrhnd
08-25-2014, 03:23 PM
They are all the same bonus type, so they won't stack.

Good to get a definitive answer about this. Thank you.


Yes, this may have missed the release notes, but Conjure Bolts scrolls should work now. Note that to get this functioning in a timely manner, these scrolls only produce +1 Bolts; Artificers casting the real spell, not from a scroll, should work as they always have.

IMHO, that's perfectly acceptable - they *should* only produce +1 bolts, unless you come out with a higher-level scroll later (similar to Barkskin +3/4/5 pots). I mean, Flame Arrow scrolls don't somehow produce higher level arrows, do they? Most of the time, people are going to have a higher enhancement bonus on their crossbow *anyway*

B0ltdrag0n
08-25-2014, 03:27 PM
That is not what I said. I said I haven't had sufficient time to test SWF yet as well. That was really an aside. I have and did test THF fighting significantly..

Bladedge
08-25-2014, 03:45 PM
Just add a requirement of the Spring Attack feat before Glancing Blows are allowed while moving. It's clean, it's simple, and sensible. This would address a lot of your concerns I think B0ltdrag0n. Perhaps?

I be for that change but if they change/update the requirements of the feats involved.


The Combat Expertise, Dodge> Mobility> Spring Attack > Whirlwind Attack line of feats could use Prerequisites change .

Scrabbler
08-25-2014, 04:42 PM
It was a major mistake to add Glancing Blows while moving, without first limiting attack animations so that using WASD keys gives no increased attack rate over not using them.

The motivation to press WASD keys should be to get your character into a different location, not to have faster attacks against a stationary target. If the developers disagree and decide that shuffling your feet should translate into higher attack rates, they should document that rule, including an explanation from NPC trainers in Korthos island and a description of how much it benefits each kind of melee, ranged, and spellcasting style.

Oxarhamar
08-25-2014, 04:54 PM
They are all the same bonus type, so they won't stack.



Yes, this may have missed the release notes, but Conjure Bolts scrolls should work now. Note that to get this functioning in a timely manner, these scrolls only produce +1 Bolts; Artificers casting the real spell, not from a scroll, should work as they always have.

+1 bolts is correct

artificer spell scales with level but, gets mostly ignored anyway since the + from bolts & + from crossbow don't stack.

Even if you made the bolts scale to +5 for a LVL 20 Charicter it would not stack with thier +5 crossbow they are likely useing.

It's a waste of time to change it really it might effect some low level repeater pre green steel if it scaled to +2 @ LVL 5 but, otherwise the two + bonuses won't stack in 99% of situations. The rare mid level +1 with 2 large prefix and suffixes like Vorpal, Disruption etc... Would be the exception.

goblean
08-25-2014, 05:30 PM
I agree. I dont want to to invalidate previous time and money spent changing the first time...only to have to remove it again later on down the road. Spending the resources 3x to remove a feature seems much more wasteful to me.

It was a terrible band-aid fix in the first place. Along with someones pet project that we should all be standing still and let monsters beat on us. I like DDO because it is not some tab target/rooted combat game. There are plenty of those games out there.

Douglas21
08-25-2014, 06:11 PM
If the intent of the cleave enhancements is to ease feat pressure on Paladins in general, the great cleave one needs to be moved to tier 4, and here's why:

Suppose a Paladin wants Great Cleave, and also wants a tier 5 enhancement that is not in KotC. This Paladin takes his non-KotC tier 5 enhancement and is now locked out from taking the Great Cleave enhancement. So, in order to get Great Cleave he has to take the actual feat. That's down from 2 feats saved to 1. But wait, Great Cleave has Cleave as a prerequisite, and the Cleave enhancement doesn't count so he has to take the Cleave feat too. No feats saved at all, this Paladin had to spend feats as if these enhancements didn't exist!

This is true even for pure Paladins who want Sacred Defender or Vanguard tier 5, so trying to limit the benefit for dips isn't much of an excuse, and I imagine quite a large portion of the Paladins out there want both Great Cleave and non-KotC tier 5 enhancements.

The design as is works fine for KotC primary builds, but not for Paladins in general. Please fix this by moving Avenging Cleave to tier 4. 21 or 22 action points in the tree is a significant but reasonable cost that does not lock out any single option other than not really being a Paladin in the first place. Tier 5 is the domain of tree-exclusive lock-in, and is not appropriate for things intended to aid a class rather than that tree.

If the intent is to ease feat pressure on KotC specifically, then nevermind but please communicate that intent clearly.

maddong
08-25-2014, 07:29 PM
I agree with tying glancing while moving to either GTHF or spring attack. You could tie it to both and let people pick which they want?

Dagolar
08-25-2014, 08:03 PM
They are all the same bonus type, so they won't stack.


Pretty sure you all stated at one point that every combat style [including shields] would lock out the ability to take other combat style feats [of different types].

Have you changed your mind on that [and found another way to fix most of the wild shape exploits]?


If the intent of the cleave enhancements is to ease feat pressure on Paladins in general

Keep in mind that they removed the Cleave and strength requirements to Overwhelming Critical (Which I assume means it only needs Improved Critical and Power Attack, now).

Unless you really WANT Great Cleave, the goal of feat saving is accomplished.

Perhaps I misunderstood something, though.

Delacroix21
08-25-2014, 09:37 PM
We are currently hoping to show Vanguard on Lamannia later this week.

Cool thanks!


By the way, I felt like there was a serious lack of sources of MRR on Lamannia. Any chance the Epic/Iconic past lives will be updated to include MRR? Any other current sources of PRR being considered to also add MRR in future builds?

Delacroix21
08-25-2014, 09:38 PM
Keep in mind that they removed the Cleave and strength requirements to Overwhelming Critical (Which I assume means it only needs Improved Critical and Power Attack, now).

Unless you really WANT Great Cleave, the goal of feat saving is accomplished.

Perhaps I misunderstood something, though.

He meant for the paladin cleaves to work with Legendary Dreadnaught's attack= Momentum Swing.

B0ltdrag0n
08-25-2014, 10:42 PM
It was a terrible band-aid fix in the first place. Along with someones pet project that we should all be standing still and let monsters beat on us. I like DDO because it is not some tab target/rooted combat game. There are plenty of those games out there.

It was, however twitch fighting getting a bonus is what is being discussed. Im not advocating stopping you from twitch fighting in general...or to stand there and take the htis on your chin.

Rull
08-26-2014, 06:28 AM
It was a major mistake to add Glancing Blows while moving, without first limiting attack animations so that using WASD keys gives no increased attack rate over not using them.

The motivation to press WASD keys should be to get your character into a different location, not to have faster attacks against a stationary target. If the developers disagree and decide that shuffling your feet should translate into higher attack rates, they should document that rule, including an explanation from NPC trainers in Korthos island and a description of how much it benefits each kind of melee, ranged, and spellcasting style.

Very true.

Also, I really liked the tradeoff between standing still and getting glancing blows, and moving around taking less damage and dealing less damage also.

It made one feat line better at offense and worse in defense in a way that is thousand times more interesting than changing the numbers for damage and adding PRR.

The perfect situation, and we had this in the past, would in my opinion be:
THF moving < TWF moving < TWF standing still < THF standing still
where combat style is dependant on play style,.rather than just a solvabel equation that will lead to one feat line being better than the other (no matter how much turbine tries to balance them)

Disabling glancing blows while moving did a perfect job of accomplishing this! I actually thought it was a stroke of genius from turbine's side, but now i'm starting to doubt this.

As much as I like moving around instead of standing stationary like in other MMO's, I like having the choice between standing stationary and moving around even more, each with it's own benefits.

ReaperAlexEU
08-26-2014, 08:30 AM
If the intent of the cleave enhancements is to ease feat pressure on Paladins in general, the great cleave one needs to be moved to tier 4, and here's why:

Suppose a Paladin wants Great Cleave, and also wants a tier 5 enhancement that is not in KotC. This Paladin takes his non-KotC tier 5 enhancement and is now locked out from taking the Great Cleave enhancement. So, in order to get Great Cleave he has to take the actual feat. That's down from 2 feats saved to 1. But wait, Great Cleave has Cleave as a prerequisite, and the Cleave enhancement doesn't count so he has to take the Cleave feat too. No feats saved at all, this Paladin had to spend feats as if these enhancements didn't exist!

This is true even for pure Paladins who want Sacred Defender or Vanguard tier 5, so trying to limit the benefit for dips isn't much of an excuse, and I imagine quite a large portion of the Paladins out there want both Great Cleave and non-KotC tier 5 enhancements.

The design as is works fine for KotC primary builds, but not for Paladins in general. Please fix this by moving Avenging Cleave to tier 4. 21 or 22 action points in the tree is a significant but reasonable cost that does not lock out any single option other than not really being a Paladin in the first place. Tier 5 is the domain of tree-exclusive lock-in, and is not appropriate for things intended to aid a class rather than that tree.

If the intent is to ease feat pressure on KotC specifically, then nevermind but please communicate that intent clearly.

hmm, i'd be happy to see the +3[W] greater cleave at tier 4 and a linked upgrade in tier 5 for the full +5[W]. i think that better-than-the-feat version does belong in tier 5, even if it means i'll never get it on my S&B paly. other than that i'd love to have the option of both cleaves without needing the feat for my S&B paly :). even then i have a feeling it wont be a no-brainer as this new shield tree is set to be full of temptation.

ReaperAlexEU
08-26-2014, 08:45 AM
It was, however twitch fighting getting a bonus is what is being discussed. Im not advocating stopping you from twitch fighting in general...or to stand there and take the htis on your chin.

have you taken a peak at the number crunching regarding combat style?

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447346-Combat-Styles-Comparison

it looks like twitching in lama gives a 20% boost to damage over standing still.

so, given that do you think it's too large a boost?

Monkey_Archer
08-26-2014, 10:34 AM
have you taken a peak at the number crunching regarding combat style?

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447346-Combat-Styles-Comparison

it looks like twitching in lama gives a 20% boost to damage over standing still.

so, given that do you think it's too large a boost?

There are a few errors in that math that make twitch fighting look stronger then it actually is. Its been too long since I looked at attack speeds so I can't comment if those are actually correct, but the glancing blow numbers are wrong. Twitch THF only gets 1/2 glancing blows per swing, not 3/4. You also cant make use of twitch attack speed while using cleaves/momentum swing/tactics/etc... (which you will typically spend up to half your time doing, depending on build) so actual in-game dps will likely only see an increase of about 10%. (but still could be close to 20% for builds that never use tactical abilities)

That said, Grailhawk's numbers obviously weren't intended to be real in-game dps examples anyway, so its understandable that twitch THF and TWF would get exaggerated in the raw data. (like they always have every time people bring out the spreadsheets)

Personally, I like the existence of twitch fighting. Its skill based, and its a trade off. Realistically its only ~10% single target dps vs 15% more glancing blows for most THF builds that use tactics.

My biggest concern over the re-introduction of twitch fighting is actually with its relation to TWF. Almost every realistic metric has THF superior to TWF now.

Seikojin
08-26-2014, 11:52 AM
What percentage of players play with a controller? <5% (is my best guess based upon playing the game for years and asking pugs)

What percentage of players play with a controller and even know how / can do twitch fighting? 25% of that 5%.

So best guess - less than 1 in 100 players can / do twitch fight. In fact I rarely see it in the many, Many, MANY pugs I pull.

Why waste resources to fix a nominal issue? There are much better things to use those resources on that affect 100% of the players instead of the 1%.

This is like saying that since I play with a 17 button mouse that Turbine should make it so the 12 extra buttons don't work.


I was there - and I disagreed with its removal at that time. Getting penalized for playing my character dynamically and getting rewarded for standing still isn't my idea of good melee combat design.




Extra blanket damage per swing should be looked at?

Ok, then lets look at all the light damage pallies are getting, lets look at the sonic damage from the recent bard changes, let's see...lets look at holy sword, lets look at zeal, the list goes on.

Yes, this change increases THF damage, obviously. But - my testing doesn't show that's brought THF DPS into OP territory like you are spouting.




This is less ad hominem, and more an attack of your arguments. This is terrible math to say that glancing while twitches doubles DPS, no matter how you're trying to back peddle your way out of it. Glancing while twitching does not double our DPS. Period. End of story.

The increase in damage is not meaningless. Its a nice boost, but it is *NOT* as much as you are asserting.




Oh really? Twitching doesn't enrich our current melee combat system?

Amazing...after playing this for 8 years I thought it did. Since you know, that's kinda what kept me here all this time.


It was a major mistake to add Glancing Blows while moving, without first limiting attack animations so that using WASD keys gives no increased attack rate over not using them.

The motivation to press WASD keys should be to get your character into a different location, not to have faster attacks against a stationary target. If the developers disagree and decide that shuffling your feet should translate into higher attack rates, they should document that rule, including an explanation from NPC trainers in Korthos island and a description of how much it benefits each kind of melee, ranged, and spellcasting style.


It was, however twitch fighting getting a bonus is what is being discussed. Im not advocating stopping you from twitch fighting in general...or to stand there and take the htis on your chin.

Honestly, adding glancing blows while moving back just helps thf get where it was before swf and melee power. Allowing twitch the way it was is in the same vein.

Personally, I don't use it all the time. Who needs to? Real time tactical play is more than enough to handle most situations. If twitching is going to save the day, I bust it out. However I don't need WASD to twitch.

I mean I just caught on that LD has a speed boost cleave, so I am not bleeding edge on pushing existing mechanics to their limits and abusing them.

XodousRoC
08-26-2014, 11:55 AM
Very true.

Also, I really liked the tradeoff between standing still and getting glancing blows, and moving around taking less damage and dealing less damage also.

It made one feat line better at offense and worse in defense in a way that is thousand times more interesting than changing the numbers for damage and adding PRR.

The perfect situation, and we had this in the past, would in my opinion be:
THF moving < TWF moving < TWF standing still < THF standing still
where combat style is dependant on play style,.rather than just a solvabel equation that will lead to one feat line being better than the other (no matter how much turbine tries to balance them)

Disabling glancing blows while moving did a perfect job of accomplishing this! I actually thought it was a stroke of genius from turbine's side, but now i'm starting to doubt this.

As much as I like moving around instead of standing stationary like in other MMO's, I like having the choice between standing stationary and moving around even more, each with it's own benefits.

The problem with your rationale, as the state of the game exists today, is that in EE stationary melee is dead melee. Movement is life. Adding glancing blows back in for all of us non-twitch fighters that enjoy the challenge of EE, but can't survive stationary combat, is a real boon. I think the perception of the problems created by adding it back in are exaggerated. A very, very small percentage of the player base twitch. I pug a LOT, and have only rarely seen twitch at play (in epics). Perhaps some of the coming mitigation changes and mob reformulations will make your idea of the perfect DDO world more valid....I'm not convinced, however. I will never, ever, advocate blocking beneficial change for more than 90 percent of the player population at the expense of a very few. This is long overdue, and as a non-twitch melee I welcome glancing blows back into the mix with movement. Perhaps now my Shiradi caster/monkcher friends won't dominate the kill count (quite as badly...).

B0ltdrag0n
08-26-2014, 12:54 PM
have you taken a peak at the number crunching regarding combat style?

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447346-Combat-Styles-Comparison

it looks like twitching in lama gives a 20% boost to damage over standing still.

so, given that do you think it's too large a boost?


With Critical hits and a 18-20 base weapon factored in...those numbers look fairly accurate. My numbers were raw on first number no crit only. Yes I do believe that is way too large of a boost. I wonder what could make that total drop by 20 percent and leave twitch glancing in place as an alternative.


Greater Two Handed Fighting: The Greater Two Handed Fighting feat adds a glancing blow to your attack sequence, and increases the damage of glancing blow attacks when wielding a two-handed weapon by an additional 10% for a total of 50%. Also increases the chance for weapon effects to trigger on glancing blows by an additional 3% for a total of 9%. Your Combat Style bonus to Melee Power is increased to +20.

Found a possible culprit. My conclusion is not to hate on THF. I play THF toons. My conclusion is that twitch fighting + glancing was pretty bad before in a dps warping way...and if you cannot fix the actual issue (the twitch part) something in the THF change being made has to give to bring it in line...especially with TWF being relegated to effectively useless...especially when moving...that hit box is terrible.


I do not want this to seem like I have a hatred for any specific fighting style or agenda beyond game balance so I think I will leave this as my last post for this round of the update pass...except rebuttals that are directed at my arguments specifically at this point. I eagerly await next weekend to do further testing.

Monkey_Archer
08-26-2014, 01:16 PM
I'm starting to wonder why THF, SWF and S&B are even getting that random +20 melee power at all. It's not helping to balance those weapon styles. Its not giving more versatility in feat choices. The only thing it is doing right now is setting TWF behind and adding powercreep for no real reason.

moo_cow
08-26-2014, 06:27 PM
I'm starting to wonder why THF, SWF and S&B are even getting that random +20 melee power at all. It's not helping to balance those weapon styles. Its not giving more versatility in feat choices. The only thing it is doing right now is setting TWF behind and adding powercreep for no real reason.

This is true. Originally I think thf was suppose to gain melee power to compete with swf, but then swf got buffed with 20 melee power lol.

sollor
08-26-2014, 06:54 PM
This is my thought on Update 23 First Look but, i am a little lazy so instead of putting them in there proper form. i am putting them here.

test dojo

like the shelf that give you all the new loot.
It would be cool to have a way to test your def-is.
you may need to give test Kobold more hp:)

Paladin, Enhancements, and Feats

like the all Paladin changes, but one question is the scale with 100% Melee Power a cap or only when hit 100 Melee Power it doubles.
like Overwhelming Critical change.
like the Tempest change. now if you could lower the ap cost of some of the enhancements.

MRR and Evasion

I ague it need a cap for Evasion toons but, there are some spell you can not evade (Magic Missiles, horrid wilting and so on).
If you could put the cap one Evasion and not the Armor it may help Artificer, Wizard and so on.
Question are you still missing some mmr like instinctive Fighting, Wall of Steel, Epic Damage Reduction and so on.

loot

I like some of the loot but, it is a little lazy to make all the upgrades ad Augment Slot.
Epic Litany of the Dead instead of Augment Slot you could remove Taint of Evil (so 2 Augment Slot or 1 Augment Slot and remove Taint of Evil).
Question are there more Items like Weapons or Augment.
like Mirror of Glamering
I see you moved the cosmetic armor over so is there more cosmetic thing like weapon or shield coming.

Master's Blitz

There realty is no way to balance because it last though the hole Quests when other Epic Moment only last a few minutes.
Master's Blitz has no down now, no counter and no restitution.

Talon_Dragonsbane
08-26-2014, 09:04 PM
•The Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery feats have been adjusted as follows:
•Shield Mastery: You are skilled with the use of a shield, and your physical resistance is increased by 3 when using a buckler or small shield, 5 when using a large shield, or 10 when using a tower shield. You gain 3% doublestrike while using a shield. While fighting with a shield you gain a +10 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power.
•Improved Shield Mastery: You are exceptionally skilled with the use of a shield, and your physical resistance is increased by 5 when using a buckler or small shield, 10 when using a large shield, or 15 when using a tower shield. Your doublestrike chance while using a shield is increased by 8%. Your Combat Style bonus to Melee Power is increased to +20.


The above shield feats get PRR, will they also get a corresponding MRR?

mikarddo
08-27-2014, 08:05 AM
In the release notes (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-%28Last-Updated-8-21-14%29) I see no mention of the proposed change to Divine Grace, nor any mention of changing how SWF, Swashbucklers and shield interact.

Am I merely overlooking something or were those changes removed?

Nascoe
08-28-2014, 01:25 AM
In the release notes (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-%28Last-Updated-8-21-14%29) I see no mention of the proposed change to Divine Grace, nor any mention of changing how SWF, Swashbucklers and shield interact.

Am I merely overlooking something or were those changes removed?

Looks like the proposal for maxing Divine Grace was ditched after very mixed reaction (ahem) from the player base. Turbine solved the issue of potentially getting MP from both SWF and Shield by making all fighting style MP bonuses the same type so they won't stack to prevent that combination (and some combinations of SWF with TWF or THF and Shield etc) gain a huge boost in melee power

CaptainSpacePony
09-01-2014, 05:50 PM
By far?

Only great two-handed fighters can glance while moving, regular or improved shouldn't.

I approve this suggestion. Simple, and very flavorful.