PDA

View Full Version : Using your Favour TP Correctly.



FranOhmsford
08-17-2014, 06:50 AM
THIS THREAD IS A GUIDE FOR THOSE WHO FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER AREN'T WILLING TO GO VIP!

IF YOU CAN GO VIP THEN CLEARLY THAT IS THE BEST WAY TO ENJOY THIS GAME - F2P IS AN AFTERTHOUGHT AND ONLY COVERS THE ENTIRE GAME IF YOU'RE EXTREMELY PATIENT AND ENJOY GRINDING!

BUT: FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO WANT TO PLAY THE ENTIRE GAME FREE OF CHARGE HERE'S SOME ADVICE:

As you run Quests in this game you will earn Favour.

Favour is given for 1st completion of each difficulty except Epic.

A Standard Low Level quest gives 2 Favour on Casual, 3 on Normal, 6 on Hard and 9 on Elite {some give more, others give less].
That is 9 TOTAL not 20!

If you run Elite first you will have the entire favour for that quest in one go!


Now Turbine give Bonus TP for Favour Checkpoints {every 100 favour on every character you will earn 25 TP!}.

There's 1st time per server bonuses too - A good way to earn TP is to to run a character to 100/200 or even 500 Favour on each Server {this last will unlock Drow for you too!}.
And give you the chance to find out which server is best for you.


DON'T buy that Cosmetic Hat or that +1 Sword or that Flying Cat Pet with your Hard Earned Favour TP!


Here's the list of best buys with my reasons:

PACKS:

Sands of Menechtarun 950 TP
Starting at Lvl 9 F2P Quests become much less prevalent in this game - Sands is a Lvl 10-15 Zone with a Huge Explorer and Multiple Quests + a Raid - It also has an Epic Option to allow you to continue playing past Lvl 20 where there's absolutely NO F2P Quests!

Gianthold 950 TP
Follow Sands with Gianthold as again this has a Huge Explorer and Multiple Quests and a Raid - Is Lvl 12-18 and has an Epic Option with a second Raid too!

Necropolis IV 850 TP {Bundle I-IV = 1495}
If you can afford it get the entire Necropolis but IV is the one you want asap as it's going to be Epicced soon - Again...A Huge Explorer, Only 5 quests and a Raid this time BUT with a Lvl Range of 13-19 this will complement Sands and Gianthold!

If you're gonna get the Bundle this moves up to #1 as you'll need to save up your TP and getting other stuff will make that harder

The Landlubber Bundle 1195 TP
3 Barrel Cove = Another Huge Explorer Zone - Multiple Quests, Epic availabilty and some of the best low level named loot in the game!
Sentinels of Stormreach complements the 3BC Heroic and Epic Sagas.
And
Attack on Stormreach gives you more options in the mid levels.

Vale of Twilight 850 TP
Used to be #1 but with only 5 quests and 3 raids + 2 Explorer Zones and NO Epic Availability it's dropped away now {If the Devs ever get around to Epiccing this it WILL be #1 again!

Vault of Night 750 TP
Includes the most popular Heroic Quest, The most popular Epic Quest and the most popular Epic Raid in the Game!
However it doesn't have much else going for it - No explorer zone, only 4 quests and a 2pt Raid and the Loot is so rare as to be exclusive!

Inspired Quarter 350 TP
This can substitute as an early buy for Vale of Twilight
IQ is at the very top of the Heroic Levels {base Lvl 18} but it's cheap and if you have GH/Necro IV and Sands to get you to 18 it will cover the last two levels to 20.

Necro II 350 TP
Say you only Bought Necro IV rather than the Necropolis Bundle - Well Necro II is exceedingly popular and being cheap could be bought alongside IQ1 to substitute for the lack of 3 Barrel Cove until you can get the Landlubber Bundle.

Here's a link to the DDOWiki page that lists Adventure Packs with Prices: http://ddowiki.com/page/Adventure_Packs so you can make informed choices of which packs to get once you've got through the ones above.

OTHER STUFF

Shared Bank
If you're going to play more than one character this is an absolute must so you can pass Bound to Account Loot between your characters!
It is Server based though so you won't be able to pass loot you earn on Khyber to a character on Ghallanda unless you decide to pay to transfer one of the characters to the other server!

Monk
Seriously - A splash of Monk needs no explanation!

Bladeforged
Or if you don't like Robots:
Purple Dragon Knight
Of the available P2P Races these two are out on their own in front - Bladeforged is the better option but PDK is nice too.

Epic Destinies
Playing Epics without these is like playing Tennis without a Racket!
If you have the money splash out on the Menace of the Underdark Expansion Pack.
But if you're short of cash save up TP to get these as soon as you can!


Also...A 5 Dollar spend on the cheapest TP Bundle in the DDOStore gets you a bunch of bonuses incl. Raising the Plat Cap to Maximum, Being able to post more than one item on the AH, Monster Manual and 2 extra character slots per server!
+ 600 TP to add to your earned TP!


Going VIP and paying monthly gets you almost everything {some stuff still has to be bought!} BUT the biggest plus of STAYING VIP even if you've bought all the quests previously is being able to open all quests 1st time on Elite and not having to complete Normal or Hard first!

One Problem with VIP is that packs are unable to be bought by a VIP so you can't take advantage of sales to get those packs permanently and as soon as you stop your VIP you'll be back to only what you've actually bought + F2P.

Oh VIP does give 500 TP per Month too.



And remember - Even as a VIP you can continue earning TP through Favour - Every 100 Favour you earn on EVERY character = 25 TP!

If you have the money to go VIP for your 1st month, 3 months etc. this will make earning that TP quicker and easier BUT you might not want to ever come back off VIP!




Lastly:
Some items on the DDOStore which are basically Newbie Traps:

Sharn Syndicate Pack
Not needed in any way - Loot is weak, XP is weak, Favour is weak {6 total per quest and only 6 quests!}
Shan to Kor, Catacombs and Tangleroot Gorge are all better buys for low level.

Reaver's Refuge Pack
Most out of the way quest zone in DDO - If you do Buy this Pack make sure NEVER to Bind yourself here!!!
4 seperate small Slayer Zones and 4 Quests {1 per zone} - All of which are highly likely to fail!
The loot is outdated, the quests are rarely Pugged and this is just an all around bad pack BUT even if it wasn't - There are simply so many options at Lvl 17-20 now and Lvl 17-20 quests are rarely run anyway apart from IQ because of the XP differential between them and Epic quests that this is the absolute last pack in it's level range for you to pick up!


Weapons
Random Loot even in the Harbour {and these days in Korthos too} is better than anything you can buy on the DDOStore!

Cosmetic Items/Pets
Don't waste your earned TP on Cosmetics - You need it for Packs!

Drow
400 Favour is so easy to get that buying Drow is literally a waste!
You'll get them FREE if you wait a bit!

Veteran Status
Start at Lvl 1 {Lvl 4 isn't that great!} until you've earned the Favour to get this free {also this only works on 1st life characters so if you don't plan on having a stable of alts it's a complete waste!}.
1000 Favour gets you Vet Status 1 {start at Lvl 4 1st life}
3000 Favour gets you Vet II {start at Lvl 7 1st life}.

Favoured Soul
2,500 Favour {admittedly not easy to farm and you will be Lvl 20+ before you earn this!} will get you this class FREE!
And FvSs are literally weaker Clerics these days!
Play a Cleric first as you won't get the best out of a FvS until you're experienced with this game!

It's still a great easy button for Warforged/Bladeforged Characters but for everyone else - You're better off as a Cleric!


And the Wildcard:

Artificer
Can be earned through Favour and so could be considered a Newbie trap BUT Artificer is a fantastic option for anyone who wants to play a Rogue like character that's not a Rogue!
An Arti Splash {2 lvls, 6 lvls, 7 lvls} is perfect for Rogues as after Lvl 13 you've got almost everything you want from your Rogue levels.
The other way round - 13, 15, 17 or 18 Arti + 7, 5, 3 or 2 Rogue is great too!

Artificer is the Ultimate Easy Button in Low Level quests - They will steamroller everything pre Lvl 12!
And perhaps the best 1st Class anyone can play!
Unfortunately they are P2P and you'll be Lvl 20+ before you can earn them through Favour so IF you have the money to buy just one class BUY ARTI!
DON'T Waste your earned TP on it though - Get the Packs with that!

silinteresting
08-17-2014, 07:13 AM
hey fran,

first let me say not a bad post 99% of the advice there i do agree
with but i do have one bone to pick if i may.

threnal you say not to buy, well this im afraid i say to buy. not one
of the first packs but down the line your gonna want that cloak to
make the masters gift augment just to make life a little easyier.

anyway just my 2 cents. enjoy the game.

your friend sil :)

serthcore
08-17-2014, 07:42 AM
Hey, since this is for new and f2p players i would mention that there's no much f2p quests after Lordsmarch chain at lvl 12, so 14-18 content is the priority. I would even remove 3 barrel cove from the list, as there's so much f2p content at that level range. For epics there's probably better choices.
Also i would sort the packs in order of importance: putting vale, gianthold, necro IV and possibly von as most important packs.
I agree that epic destinies are very important, much more than iconics or even shared bank.

Scrabbler
08-17-2014, 09:50 AM
continue playing past Lvl 20 where there's absolutely NO F2P Quests!
The free quests above level 20 are Brothers of the Forge and Study in Sable.

FranOhmsford
08-17-2014, 10:02 AM
Hey, since this is for new and f2p players i would mention that there's no much f2p quests after Lordsmarch chain at lvl 12, so 14-18 content is the priority. I would even remove 3 barrel cove from the list, as there's so much f2p content at that level range. For epics there's probably better choices.
Also i would sort the packs in order of importance: putting vale, gianthold, necro IV and possibly von as most important packs.
I agree that epic destinies are very important, much more than iconics or even shared bank.

The packs are in order!

Vale is nowhere near topdog any more!

I did think about putting Gianthold ahead of Sands but decided that 11 Heroic / 21 Epic was a better 1st choice than 13 Heroic / 24 Epic.

Gianthold takes second place and with E-Orchard on its way Necro IV is up to 3rd.

With the Epic availability I'd also place 3Barrel ahead of Vale but only just.

As for VoN - It's still on the list but with only 4 quests and a two part raid {despite the popularity of one of those quests and the raid} it just doesn't compete with the ones above it for me.

Lordsmarch and the few Lvl 10-13 f2p quests aren't enough alone to get f2pers up to the higher levels and Sands at lvl 11 + Epic = Much better option than IQ at Lvl 18 once you've already cleaned out GH + Vale because you started them early!



Yes EDs are a must but I placed them at the bottom because they don't become a must until quite late in the game - whereas many people will never even get that far without Shared Bank or at least one P2P Race or Class bought.

IF You're planning on getting to Epic as soon as you can then of course EDs along with Gianthold are absolutely the must buys BUT you're probably better off at that point forking out the cash for the Menace of the Underdark Expansion first {which gives you the EDs anyway!}.

FranOhmsford
08-17-2014, 10:03 AM
The free quests above level 20 are Brothers of the Forge and Study in Sable.

Both Lvl 26 I believe - So a gap of 7 levels without a single F2P Quest - the last one in Heroics being Lvl 18 In the Demon's Den.

FranOhmsford
08-17-2014, 10:11 AM
hey fran,

first let me say not a bad post 99% of the advice there i do agree
with but i do have one bone to pick if i may.

threnal you say not to buy, well this im afraid i say to buy. not one
of the first packs but down the line your gonna want that cloak to
make the masters gift augment just to make life a little easyier.

anyway just my 2 cents. enjoy the game.

your friend sil :)

I did consider the mantle {and other named loot from Threnal - which is generally pretty good} however:

1) The Chain has the absolute worst mechanic in the game and is easily messed up - requiring you to go back and repeat earlier parts {something I've only had to do on 2 occasions myself BUT others haven't been so lucky!}.

2) Coyle!

3) Derward

4) Coyle!

5) Getting a group together is nigh on impossible at level and BB goes out the window with the quests being out of order level wise.

6) Coyle!

7) Weapons issues - Rust Monsters, Earth Elementals, Renders and Oozes being on top of each other you'll break more weapons in this chain then anywhere else in game!

8) Coyle!

9) It competes at its level range with two of the most popular packs in the game - VoN and Shadow Crypt - Meaning absolutely no-one runs it!

10) Did I mention Coyle?

11) You can get the Voice earlier and easier with Delera's Pack than Mantle through Threnal and absolutely no-one NEEDS the Augment!

12) Oh yes - COYLE!!!

Enoach
08-17-2014, 10:30 AM
...9) It competes at its level range with two of the most popular packs in the game - VoN and Shadow Crypt - Meaning absolutely no-one runs it!
...


Well then I guess you can count me as part of the group of absolutely no-one. Because it is not F2P and there are many forum posts talking ill of the place is the reason why in my opinion this is a tough place to group.

Yes, the level ranges of 8 to 10 base makes this difficult to get bravery bonus on each quest because of how South is unlocked. Yes, it has a gotcha in quest advancement that can make opening South a PITA. But it also has 3 short quests that are good for quick XP in the Giant Caves. It also has a decent twink item in the wilderness - Threnal War blade or War dagger - Both +5 and have a Red and Purple augment so it can be a good caster and melee item for ML 6.

The Cloaks advantage is the spell absorption on the cloak makes this usable in many places where spell damage can make quick work of someone.

Uska
08-17-2014, 10:35 AM
Good stuff and I absolutely agree on thernal imdont remember the last time I ran it.

Krelar
08-17-2014, 10:39 AM
Both Lvl 26 I believe - So a gap of 7 levels without a single F2P Quest - the last one in Heroics being Lvl 18 In the Demon's Den.

You can also play the lord's of dust chain on epic so that's another 4 quests that are all level 21. They are also PUG'd fairly frequently, at least on my server.

FranOhmsford
08-17-2014, 10:43 AM
Well then I guess you can count me as part of the group of absolutely no-one. Because it is not F2P and there are many forum posts talking ill of the place is the reason why in my opinion this is a tough place to group.

Yes, the level ranges of 8 to 10 base makes this difficult to get bravery bonus on each quest because of how South is unlocked. Yes, it has a gotcha in quest advancement that can make opening South a PITA. But it also has 3 short quests that are good for quick XP in the Giant Caves. It also has a decent twink item in the wilderness - Threnal War blade or War dagger - Both +5 and have a Red and Purple augment so it can be a good caster and melee item for ML 6.

The Cloaks advantage is the spell absorption on the cloak makes this usable in many places where spell damage can make quick work of someone.

Threnal is NOT F2P - It is a P2P pack and as such it is relevant for me {or anyone else} to state that it is a waste of TP {comparative to other P2P Packs!}.

If it was F2P then we could concentrate on the numerous other issues with it {which people would still complain about} and I seriously doubt the numbers running it would reach VoN/Shadow Crypt numbers even if it was F2P!

Well - East 1+2 maybe - Constantly resetting the chain and starting again for the XP in 2.


Threnal War Blade's decent yes but if I remember correctly it's not all that different to the Nightforge Avenger blade in Relic {which is F2P!}.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Nightforge_Avenger_Blade

http://ddowiki.com/page/Threnalian_War_Blade

A Purple Slot vs Adamantine {which would probably be put in one of the War Blade's slots anyway - that or Cold Iron.}
And 1.5 1d10 vs 1.5 1d8.
Oh and it's min Lvl 8 btw not min Lvl 6!

It's better but not enough so for a P2P item against a F2P item!


The Spell Absorption on that Cloak is great and all but here you're looking at meta-game knowledge of when to swap it in along with all the other spell absorption items you're supposed to carry!
Apart from possibly Sharn and Restless Isles I can't think of another pack that has as little going for it as Threnal - and I personally like the Restless Isles for its absolutely brilliant Slayer Zone!
Oh yeah...And the Raise Dead and Teleport clickies!

FranOhmsford
08-17-2014, 10:50 AM
You can also play the lord's of dust chain on epic so that's another 4 quests that are all level 21. They are also PUG'd fairly frequently, at least on my server.

Lol - How could I forget Lords of Dust?

Yes that chain is F2P and does provide Epicability BUT these are all pretty new quests we're talking about {Brothers of the Forge and Study in Sable especially.}.

And 6 quests over the course of 8 levels {9 if you count the fact that there's not one single Lvl 19 F2P quest!} that a F2P can play is a bit low in my book!
Counting Lvl 18 that's 7 quests over 10 levels!
Counting Lvl 16 and the Lords of Dust Chain that's 11 quests over 12 levels!

Lvl 15's better now with the addition of the 2 Wheloon F2P quests but still even with those, Acid Wit and Delirium it's 15 quests over 14 levels considering the fact that there's not one single Lvl 14 F2P Quest!

Mired is the Only Lvl 13 F2P Quest so now we're up to 16 quests over 15 levels!

I think there's more F2P Lvl 2 quests than the entirety of the game past Lvl 12!

moomooprincess
08-17-2014, 10:55 AM
For new players wanting to know more about adventure packs, here is another thread

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/424669

For new players, if you are really wondering about an adventure pack, just make a thread about the adventure pack you are looking at, and quite a few players will voice the pros and cons of adventure packs.

I will voice an opinion, I think the absolute last pack you should buy is Sharn Syndicate. That is 350 turbine points for 48 favor, or 0.137 favor per turbine point spent. There is zero good loot. You can get BOUND to account items from F2P quests(Waterworks). Sharn Syndicate has Bookbinder Rescue for the PITA quest.

Threnal gives you 0.240 favor per turbine point spent, which is 0.103 more than Sharn. I do agree about Coyle in Threnal, when I solo that one, I can only do it on hard. I am sure if I really cared enough I could do it on elite, but I don't care that much.

FranOhmsford
08-17-2014, 11:13 AM
For new players wanting to know more about adventure packs, here is another thread

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/424669

For new players, if you are really wondering about an adventure pack, just make a thread about the adventure pack you are looking at, and quite a few players will voice the pros and cons of adventure packs.

I will voice an opinion, I think the absolute last pack you should buy is Sharn Syndicate. That is 350 turbine points for 48 favor, or 0.137 favor per turbine point spent. There is zero good loot. You can get BOUND to account items from F2P quests(Waterworks). Sharn Syndicate has Bookbinder Rescue for the PITA quest.

Threnal gives you 0.240 favor per turbine point spent, which is 0.103 more than Sharn. I do agree about Coyle in Threnal, when I solo that one, I can only do it on hard. I am sure if I really cared enough I could do it on elite, but I don't care that much.

Actually Sharn is 36 Favour - 6 per quest and only 6 quests!

And yes it's utterly worthless other than for those like me who like to complete every quest at each level.

Threnal does have a number of quests - 9 in all - I'm not counting the Giant Caves or the Arena as the Compendium doesn't count them and they give 0 Favour!

BUT it has so many other problems that in my view even Sharn {which is cheap for a P2P Pack} comes out ahead in my book. {though only just!}.


P.S. That thread you linked gives Sharn a C- and Catacombs {Cheaper, Better Loot, More Favour and a required pack for Silver Flame Favour at the time} a D+
It's also long out of date.

Stoner81
08-17-2014, 11:22 AM
Delera's, VoN, Gianthold and Vale are (imo) the only packs you really need to reach level 20 as a new(er) player, for low levels up to around level 12 or so there is tons of F2P content and once you hit level 13 or so stuff starts drying up pretty fast. Starting from scratch I would say the best thing to buy is MoTU since you get 2000TP from it, the Druid class and a couple of low level packs like the Carnival chain. Those 2000TP points can be spent on the afore mentioned packs and you will be a Premium player instantly since you bought the expansion pack. Sure you won't be able to use ED's for some time but that isn't the point it's a case of what it gives for the cost, couple it with the Shadowfell pack and you save even more money and get more points (I think).

I believe Ellis mentions something about it in his pack review thread which is another excellent read for new(er) players.

Stoner81.

Enoach
08-17-2014, 11:24 AM
Because it is not F2P and there are many forum posts talking ill of the place is the reason why in my opinion this is a tough place to group.


I think you read past the not in that first line. I was pointing out that because it has to be paid for and it get such a bad rap on the forums is the actual reason why Threnal parties are hard to come by.




Threnal is NOT F2P - It is a P2P pack and as such it is relevant for me {or anyone else} to state that it is a waste of TP {comparative to other P2P Packs!}.

If it was F2P then we could concentrate on the numerous other issues with it {which people would still complain about} and I seriously doubt the numbers running it would reach VoN/Shadow Crypt numbers even if it was F2P!

Well - East 1+2 maybe - Constantly resetting the chain and starting again for the XP in 2.


Threnal War Blade's decent yes but if I remember correctly it's not all that different to the Nightforge Avenger blade in Relic {which is F2P!}.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Nightforge_Avenger_Blade

http://ddowiki.com/page/Threnalian_War_Blade

A Purple Slot vs Adamantine {which would probably be put in one of the War Blade's slots anyway - that or Cold Iron.}
And 1.5 1d10 vs 1.5 1d8.
Oh and it's min Lvl 8 btw not min Lvl 6!

It's better but not enough so for a P2P item against a F2P item!


The Spell Absorption on that Cloak is great and all but here you're looking at meta-game knowledge of when to swap it in along with all the other spell absorption items you're supposed to carry!
Apart from possibly Sharn and Restless Isles I can't think of another pack that has as little going for it as Threnal - and I personally like the Restless Isles for its absolutely brilliant Slayer Zone!
Oh yeah...And the Raise Dead and Teleport clickies!

I like Threnal and enjoy running it. I'm not sure what can be done outside of adjusting XP to make this more popular - maybe make Coyle smarter, but then who will we have to hate :)

Braegan
08-17-2014, 12:04 PM
I agree with most of the OP. I would still rate Vale higher on the list because of greensteel crafting. Decent until you are high enough level and/or loot better and best in slot for trs.

FranOhmsford
08-17-2014, 12:05 PM
Delera's, VoN, Gianthold and Vale are (imo) the only packs you really need to reach level 20 as a new(er) player, for low levels up to around level 12 or so there is tons of F2P content and once you hit level 13 or so stuff starts drying up pretty fast. Starting from scratch I would say the best thing to buy is MoTU since you get 2000TP from it, the Druid class and a couple of low level packs like the Carnival chain. Those 2000TP points can be spent on the afore mentioned packs and you will be a Premium player instantly since you bought the expansion pack. Sure you won't be able to use ED's for some time but that isn't the point it's a case of what it gives for the cost, couple it with the Shadowfell pack and you save even more money and get more points (I think).

I believe Ellis mentions something about it in his pack review thread which is another excellent read for new(er) players.

Stoner81.

You're living in 2010!

It's 2014 now!

Gianthold is still up there, VoN, Deleras and Vale however have all dropped a couple places in my view though.

Vale if and when the Devs ever Epic it WILL be straight back to the #1 spot it held for half a decade! BUT for now I'd def put it behind Gianthold, Sands and Orchard and probably behind 3Barrel too.

3 Barrel has overtaken VoN in my view thanks to being Epicced and I've always placed Sands and Orchard ahead of VoN anyway!

Delera's has the Voice - Fine - Get someone to buy you a guest pass!
No way would I tell someone to buy Delera's before any of the above packs as the Voice though a nice bonus most certainly is not necessary anymore {and frankly I don't think it ever was!}.


As for the Carnival Chain - I used to recommend it but not any more - It needs a serious upgrade before it's worth recommending again and thanks the saga even Sentinels is ahead of it now for me!


Druid is a difficult class to build right - I'd recommed Arti and Monk ahead of Druid for newbies.


Recommended low level packs would be:

3 Barrel
Sentinels
Catacombs
Necro 1
Necro 2

FranOhmsford
08-17-2014, 12:08 PM
I agree with most of the OP. I would still rate Vale higher on the list because of greensteel crafting. Decent until you are high enough level and/or loot better and best in slot for trs.

Heya False - Long time no see.

Greensteel is mainly for TRs - 1st Lifers won't see it!

And with Shroud not being the go to Raid anymore Vale has lost a lot of its lustre - That will change when the Devs get their act together and give us E-Shroud but for now Gianthold, Sands and Orchard are all better options and 3BC is about equal with Vale for me.

FranOhmsford
08-17-2014, 12:11 PM
I think you read past the not in that first line. I was pointing out that because it has to be paid for and it get such a bad rap on the forums is the actual reason why Threnal parties are hard to come by.

And I was saying that even if it was F2P it would still have issues and making it F2P though it would get more people running it would also bring a lot more complaints as newbies realised just what a terrible state it's in!

VoN and Shadow Crypt would still be run 3x as often as Threnal even if Threnal was F2P!



I like Threnal and enjoy running it. I'm not sure what can be done outside of adjusting XP to make this more popular - maybe make Coyle smarter, but then who will we have to hate :)

Threnal could be so goood!

Unfortunately the Devs are ignoring it!

One of these days maybe BUT for now it's definitely at the bottom of the pile {in the bottom 3 at least!}.

Qhualor
08-17-2014, 12:24 PM
lol 3BC a must pack.

Braegan
08-17-2014, 12:33 PM
Heya False - Long time no see.

Greensteel is mainly for TRs - 1st Lifers won't see it!

And with Shroud not being the go to Raid anymore Vale has lost a lot of its lustre - That will change when the Devs get their act together and give us E-Shroud but for now Gianthold, Sands and Orchard are all better options and 3BC is about equal with Vale for me.

Hey.

Well a 1st lifer would see greensteel, with time. But yes most of its allure is for trs since it can't be beaten for its ML. Maybe I am biased since I strongly dislike 3BC, honestly haven't run it in years. But due to where it is level wise, there is a lot of xp to be had in the range of 3bc whereas vale provides popularly run quests at level for the tail end of your heroic journey.

silinteresting
08-17-2014, 12:46 PM
I did consider the mantle {and other named loot from Threnal - which is generally pretty good} however:

1) The Chain has the absolute worst mechanic in the game and is easily messed up - requiring you to go back and repeat earlier parts {something I've only had to do on 2 occasions myself BUT others haven't been so lucky!}.

2) Coyle!

3) Derward

4) Coyle!

5) Getting a group together is nigh on impossible at level and BB goes out the window with the quests being out of order level wise.

6) Coyle!

7) Weapons issues - Rust Monsters, Earth Elementals, Renders and Oozes being on top of each other you'll break more weapons in this chain then anywhere else in game!

8) Coyle!

9) It competes at its level range with two of the most popular packs in the game - VoN and Shadow Crypt - Meaning absolutely no-one runs it!

10) Did I mention Coyle?

11) You can get the Voice earlier and easier with Delera's Pack than Mantle through Threnal and absolutely no-one NEEDS the Augment!

12) Oh yes - COYLE!!!

ok lets sort this out, worst mechanic hmm dont think so. just run west, east
then south.

derwood is easy to control, if you think its hard well thats interesting.

getting a party to do this, well im afraid ive never had that problem and i pug.

bb well, all these can be ran at level 10/11 i believe which is what i do.

weapon issues really? come on i think most people carry more than 1
weapon set, well i do when running a meele. have to say tho last 2 occasions
i ran this was as a druid and a wizard.

it competes with von and shadow crypt, well last few times i ran them levels
the vons are not ran that often anymore as they are being saved for epics,
shadow crypt tho i do agree with a good farming quest for heriocs.

that leaves me with your last and most important point COYLE.
now i can understand coyle used to be a pain but these days the mechanic
is there to knock him out, soloing this can be a bit of a pain but in a group its
rather simple to designate 1 player to keep boping coyle and job done.

fran your op was really good and i dont want to detract from that but come on
coyle aint that bad really and actually the xp aint bad the escort one is good,
the favour for these aint too bad could be better, different strokes for different
folks i guess.

your friend sil :)

Kasiddy
08-17-2014, 01:41 PM
The Spell Absorption on that Cloak is great and all but here you're looking at meta-game knowledge of when to swap it in along with all the other spell absorption items you're supposed to carry!
You are getting neg levels from something... somewhere... you put it on.
I almost always use the cloak in response to something, not in preparation.
Or I will use it with the voice if I temporarily need True Seeing at lowbie levels.


I personally like the Restless Isles for its absolutely brilliant Slayer Zone!
I never have heard it described like that before, but glad you like it.


Coyle!
Coyle is sturdy now. Has been for a long time.
Hold for reinforcements is still not a lot of fun, and is terrible xp, but Coyle is sturdy. Leave him on his own and he often aggros on the gargoyles up on a ledge that don't actually attack. I've seen him keep himself busy this way the whole quest.


About Threnal in general - yes, it needs an update.
However, at level, your other options are mostly VoN and dead things.
I personally care very little for all the quests with dead things and usually skip Necro 1-3 entirely, along with half the House J quests.
That leaves Threnal.
Also, if you are interested in stick builds, the Theurgic Stave from Threnal can't really be ignored, and if I had a traditional Paladin, I'd probably want the Retribution sword. And the Heavy Fort augment that is in the Trooper's Shield might be worth farming if you were having trouble getting the augment from somewhere else.

For bravery bonus - just run the whole thing on elite when you are level 11.
The two level 8 quests are not that much xp anyway, but if you can't stand the thought of running a level 8 quest on elite at 11, just do that part at level 10. The level 10 quests are no more difficult than the level 9 quests.

About the interesting mix of mobs...
Designate one person to get render aggro, another with the everbright bludgeoning weapon to get rusty and ooze aggro. Or have ranged pew pew the renders and kite them around while the rest of the party deals with the other mobs, then have everyone tackle the renders at once. Or bring a sorc or two and let the gods sort it out later when everything is dead.

Knowing what I know now about the game, I would get Threnal long before the low level Silver Flame or Market quests.
I'm a little surprised Sorrowdusk has not been mentioned.
It has some decent, useful items and is decent filler between the plentiful F2P lowbie quests and VoN and Sands. Unfortunately the quests levels are a little spread out. Same problem with Tangleroot - but I think a case can still be made for that one just on the goggles.

dunklezhan
08-17-2014, 01:47 PM
I think its a good list if you want 'most bang for the buck'. I disagree that its the most fun set of packs being recommended in all cases, but as a F2P 'best value' guide probably about right, considering Epic is (sadly) where it's at these days.

FranOhmsford
08-17-2014, 03:39 PM
This guy likes Threnal

This is all well and good but I'm speaking comparatively and yes obviously there's people out there who like Threnal {I like Restless Isles but I know most can't stand em.}.

What I'm doing here though is giving Newbies my reasons why certain packs are the top dogs and others just aren't worth it unless you've got everything else.

Here's the full list {not counting Expansions}

1. Sands
2. Gianthold
3. Necro IV
4. 3BC
5. Vale
6. VoN
7. Necro II
8. IQ
9. Shavarath
10. Sentinels
11. Devil Assault / Chronoscope
12. Catacombs
13. Necro I
14. Delera's
15. Dreaming Dark
16. Harbinger of Madness
17. Tangleroot Gorge
18. Attack on Stormreach
19. High Road
20. Necro III
21. Shan To Kor
22. Sorrowdusk Isle
23. Cannith Manufactory
24. Restless Isles
25. Threnal
26. Druid's Deep
27. Reign of Madness
28. Reaver's Refuge
29. Sharn Syndicate
30. Cannith Challenges

I think that's all of them.

Now yes you can make a case that Threnal is a better buy than Sharn {Personally Sharn's cheap so an easier buy than Threnal}.
But can you really make a case for Threnal over ANY other pack in that list?



Necro I & III btw would be MUCH lower on the list if it wasn't for Silver Flame Pots - It doesn't matter how many people HATE those packs - They're higher on the list than they deserve to be for that reason alone!



EDIT: NEW: bottom place goes to Cannith Challenges for obvious reasons!

EDIT 2: Moved High Road above Necro III as 400 Silver Flame Favour is available without one pack and if you're going to get Necro III it will probably be as part of the Bundle anyway.

EDIT 3: Moved Cannith Manufactory ahead of Restless Isles as 2 rarely run Raids beats 1 run once in a blue moon Raid!

EDIT 4: Hold For Reinforcements is being changed so Threnal has moved up 4 places to 25th on the list, I've also placed Druid's Deep ahead of Reign of Madness as Druid's has Epic Viability and Reign doesn't.

FranOhmsford
08-17-2014, 03:42 PM
I think its a good list if you want 'most bang for the buck'. I disagree that its the most fun set of packs being recommended in all cases, but as a F2P 'best value' guide probably about right, considering Epic is (sadly) where it's at these days.

Thank you.

I never said anything about "Fun" in my OP - This is about which packs give you the most and without doubt that puts Sands and Gianthold in the top 2!

I've always loved 3Barrel but it would still have been low on the list if it wasn't for the epicification which gave it a huge boost!

Vale just doesn't give you that much anymore what with VoD and HoX having been all but forgotten and Greensteel no help to newbie 1st lifers who won't even see it pre Lvl 20!

Saekee
08-17-2014, 03:52 PM
The only thing I have learned from this thread is that you don't disagree with Fran. There is only one correct opinion.
well, he does use a Kobold as his avatar, so from the RP side all ok

I know it is nitpicking but you can actually add epic challenges as F2P, assuming someone grabs the free daily token (and hence also heroic challenges are f2p).

The two easiest sources for TRing (if a new player does not want to buy epic packs) are the Cannith challenges and Devil's Assault, the latter part of the Vale of Twilight pack. If a new player does not wish to buy any packs, and yet TR, they can grab daily tokens and then do the easier challenges (like the lava caves) for the token exchange. Epic normal Devil's assault is also fairly easy and groups fill on it all the time.

FranOhmsford
08-17-2014, 03:57 PM
well, he does use a Kobold as his avatar, so from the RP side all ok

I know it is nitpicking but you can actually add epic challenges as F2P, assuming someone grabs the free daily token (and hence also heroic challenges are f2p).

The two easiest sources for TRing (if a new player does not want to buy epic packs) are the Cannith challenges and Devil's Assault, the latter part of the Vale of Twilight pack. If a new player does not wish to buy any packs, and yet TR, they can grab daily tokens and then do the easier challenges (like the lava caves) for the token exchange. Epic normal Devil's assault is also fairly easy and groups fill on it all the time.

Oooo I forgot DA!

This has nothing to do with Vale of Twilight though - It's a pack all on its own {well DA+ Chronoscope!}.

Cannith Manufactory I also forgot about.


I think I'd put DA somewhere between Shavarath and Dreaming Dark on the list.

While unless you're looking to earn Arti the super hard way Cannith Manufactory and Cannith Challenges would be in the bottom 5 or 6!


Editing my previous post with the "not quite" full list.

EllisDee37
08-17-2014, 04:41 PM
P.S. That thread you linked gives Sharn a C- and Catacombs {Cheaper, Better Loot, More Favour and a required pack for Silver Flame Favour at the time} a D+
It's also long out of date.It is not long out of date; I haven't updated it for 3BC yet, but otherwise the info that's there is current.

I stand by those rankings for Sharn and Catacombs. Both are super low priority. Sharn gets the slight edge for two reasons: BTA craftable blanks that are WAY WAY WAY easier to farm than from waterworks, and it's just plain more fun than catacombs. (Less repetitive, and more interesting mobs to fight.)

FranOhmsford
08-17-2014, 07:00 PM
It is not long out of date; I haven't updated it for 3BC yet, but otherwise the info that's there is current.

I stand by those rankings for Sharn and Catacombs. Both are super low priority. Sharn gets the slight edge for two reasons: BTA craftable blanks that are WAY WAY WAY easier to farm than from waterworks, and it's just plain more fun than catacombs. (Less repetitive, and more interesting mobs to fight.)

Each to their own but I'm not sure about the "fun" factor of Stormreaver Fresco, Stand Your Ground or Bookbinder Rescue {I'll give you Dirty Laundry, Repossession & Come Out and Slay though.}.


BtA Craftable blanks I just don't see as a priority for newbies as Crafting has been left to rot by the Devs and the Grind to get viable Crafting Levels is Insane anyway!


As I've said before: Catacombs beats Sharn on base Favour {which is highly necessary favour too!}, XP, Loot and Cost! {Oh and for a Cleric the fun factor of Cata is through the roof!}.

Honestly I'd give Catacombs a B myself and Sharn a D-.



As for the out of date status: It's not the base info that's the problem but the 2010 thinking - With the changes to the game certain packs have become much more desirable while others have dropped places.

Vale of Twilight and Delera's are 2 great examples:

With VoD and HoX basically dead Raids now and the SubT a nightmare for newbies who are expecting it to be soloable like literally every other slayer in the game.
With Shroud runs nowhere near as common as even last year.
With Flagging runs not filling!
AND
With Gianthold being the much better bang for your buck pack thanks to its epicification and Saga!
Vale cannot be considered #1 anymore and frankly doesn't compare with Sands or Orchard either!

4 Years ago I didn't need a Voice of the Master and I need it even less now!
XP is so much more plentiful now than it was then and apart from Voice {and Carnifex} there's literally no reason to buy Delera's at all!
I didn't understand the push from vets for everyone to buy Delera's in 2010 and I certainly don't understand it now!

P.S. If you don't like Catacombs you should absolutely loathe Delera's!


On the other Hand - Despite what the haters want you to believe Epicification has given 3BC a HUGE Boost.
Just like making it part of the Saga has for Sentinels of Stormreach!

I used to put Sentinels as the absolute last Epic available pack to buy BUT NOW I'd put it ahead of Carnival and Fens any day of the week!

Qhualor
08-17-2014, 07:18 PM
voice, Carnifex and farming Deleras were the biggest reasons to buy and run that pack back then and still very good reasons to buy and run them now. the xp may be plentiful today and much easier to level compared to years ago but it is still a motivator to run good xp quests which Vale and Deleras has. Shroud may not fill as easily as it used to and there aren't lfms every 5 minutes like before, but Vale is still popular to run from 16-18 for xp. groups don't often fill or slow to fill because a lot of groups are "IP".

FranOhmsford
08-17-2014, 07:51 PM
voice, Carnifex and farming Deleras were the biggest reasons to buy and run that pack back then and still very good reasons to buy and run them now. the xp may be plentiful today and much easier to level compared to years ago but it is still a motivator to run good xp quests which Vale and Deleras has.

But not the motivator that it once was!

5 Quests in Vale and a Raid that is run for XP maybe once a week!
10 Quests in GH, a Raid that's run for XP once in a Lifetime and a Saga that can be run 3 times in 3 Hours with a moderate group!

As for Delera's - Just swap in 3 Barrel/Sentinels for Gianthold - BTW 3 Barrel's had a pretty massive boost to Quest XP as well as now having a Saga!


Shroud may not fill as easily as it used to and there aren't lfms every 5 minutes like before, but Vale is still popular to run from 16-18 for xp. groups don't often fill or slow to fill because a lot of groups are "IP".

Popular to run from 16-18 maybe - Though in my experience nowhere near as much as previously!

But almost impossible to get a group for if you manage to outlevel it for any reason - Something that's very easy to do these days!

I can put up a 17-20 Group for GH pretty much any time of day and day of the week and have it fill {yes I'll go IP if it takes more than a few minutes!}.
The other day I put up a 19-22 Group for Vale Flags as I'd only run them Normal at level and ran Ritual and a 76 Minute SOLO Coal without getting a SINGLE hit!
I had to send a tell to a friendly Sorc to run Rainbow and we also got Dust out the way before anyone else hit the LFM {Devils filled!}.

It's a case of degrees - You're treating Vale and Delera's like nothing has happened in the past 4 years - Whereas I'm simply saying that comparatively these packs no longer have the same allure.

Gianthold on the other hand is much more appealing now than it was Pre Epicification and Sagas! {Despite Reaver's Fate being pretty much a Dead Raid!}.

Narwal
08-17-2014, 07:59 PM
If you want to play Epic level stuff, you'll need to get Epic Destinies. And probably the best way to that is buying the Menace of the Underdark Expansion (MotU). You've made it to 20 save those pennies and put some money into the game. You are looking at $20 for Base Edition and $35 for "Standard Edition" which include the druid class, 1000 TP, Veteran start status (across all servers) and 4 Eberron adventure packs: Phiarlan Carnival (includeds some epic), Attack on Stormreach, The Path of Inspiration, and Dreaming Dark (some 20 level stuff on elite but not officially epic) to help get you to 20 on your next life.

If not money you are looking at 3995 TP for MotU+Evening Star Challenges (meh) + Epic Destinies. I guess it's only 995 TP for Epic Destinies. But as Fran pointed out: Epic content is purchased content.

It should be added that it will be really hard to farm the 4000TP you need without buying some packs and some quality of life game improvements like the shared bank or a class/race *you'll* love like the Artificer or Monk or Warforged (I don't love 'em so I wouldn't recommend them for all, but if they appeal to you they can make the game/grind/farm more fun and you might make it to 4000TP).

As for first life, new-to-the-game leveling and TP saving/spending I concur with the OP for the most part. I might pump up Vault of Night (VoN) {or Red Fens (Fens)} for the Kundarak Bank space, with some Epic love. I might swap VoN with 3bC, put Gianthold into #1 and bump Sands down. But how will you buy Gianthold without more adventure packs to farm TP from.

Qhualor
08-17-2014, 08:15 PM
But not the motivator that it once was!

5 Quests in Vale and a Raid that is run for XP maybe once a week!
10 Quests in GH, a Raid that's run for XP once in a Lifetime and a Saga that can be run 3 times in 3 Hours with a moderate group!

As for Delera's - Just swap in 3 Barrel/Sentinels for Gianthold - BTW 3 Barrel's had a pretty massive boost to Quest XP as well as now having a Saga!



Popular to run from 16-18 maybe - Though in my experience nowhere near as much as previously!

But almost impossible to get a group for if you manage to outlevel it for any reason - Something that's very easy to do these days!

I can put up a 17-20 Group for GH pretty much any time of day and day of the week and have it fill {yes I'll go IP if it takes more than a few minutes!}.
The other day I put up a 19-22 Group for Vale Flags as I'd only run them Normal at level and ran Ritual and a 76 Minute SOLO Coal without getting a SINGLE hit!
I had to send a tell to a friendly Sorc to run Rainbow and we also got Dust out the way before anyone else hit the LFM {Devils filled!}.

It's a case of degrees - You're treating Vale and Delera's like nothing has happened in the past 4 years - Whereas I'm simply saying that comparatively these packs no longer have the same allure.

Gianthold on the other hand is much more appealing now than it was Pre Epicification and Sagas! {Despite Reaver's Fate being pretty much a Dead Raid!}.

Vale and GH are in different leveling areas. you still need something from 18-20. out of all the packs in that leveling range, Vale is still more popularly run than IQ, Reavers, House C and Amrath. even the Eveningstar quests aren't run as often. GH is a very good pack as it always has been, but got even more of a boost since it has a saga and can be played on epic now.

3BC unfortunately will never be considered a popular pack and other than you, most wont recommend it to buy. it did get a boost now that it can be run on epic and part of a saga with a few nice items, but people will still prefer hopping off the ship and into Deleras Graveyard for easy and fast xp than to run around 3BC to all the different quests that have never been considered fun to play by a lot of players. the only reason I hear to buy 3BC these days is because it can be played on epic now.

that 17-20 group is running GH for saga btw. I hardly see a over level Vale group fill either. Vale is considered more of an xp pack now and for newer players to flag for Shroud to get their GS or for those that still heroic TR a lot.

Kasiddy
08-17-2014, 08:22 PM
I'm sorry, but I really can't let this go, even if I should.
You have IQ and Shavarath in your top 10?
Dreaming Dark (or IQ2), Catacombs, and Necro 1 in the top 15?
I just don't see that. I mean I really don't see that.

A newbie is better off getting the MotU expansion before spending TP on those packs mentioned.
That is where the action is going to be.
The loot, xp, and gear from the lowbie packs are unnecessary.
Cocoon is so much better than the silver flame pots it isn't funny, and getting both takes about the same amount of work now. Sure, the pots are nice to have just in case - I have a stack on my main I've carried around the past three TRs - but definitely not a priority.
The Shavarath quests still have good loot (for 18-20) but are so rarely run now that their worth is highly suspect.
Inspired Quarter and Dreaming Dark were only really popular because they were the only place left for level 19-20 TR xp back in the day, and the quests could be completed quickly with a good party. There is still some good loot there, but the xp is awful and the most common lfms I see for these packs on Khyber are for casual dreaming dark farming for ioun stones.

I have multi-life TRs and I hit 20 in the vale. Then I go to epics. Rarely I will do something level 17-20, but if I do it will be in Eveningstar. I don't see a lot of lfms with other people hitting the 17-20 Eberron stuff either. A few, yes, but not many.
Really, run vale and the spinner chain, then the action shifts to Eveningstar.
Druids and High road still fill easily; I can't recall the last time I saw any lfm related to Reign of Madness.
Giving a rundown of the packs without considering the expansions doesn't take into account where the game has shifted, sorry.
I'm not going to disagree with your top 7 (I still wouldn't buy Necro 2 again), but MotU needs to go in the top 10 priority content purchases.

Stoner81
08-17-2014, 09:32 PM
It's not the base info that's the problem but the 2010 thinking

Just because it is an "old" way of thinking doesn't mean it is wrong... if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Getting a group to fill which is over level for Vale is very unlikely to happen (in my experience) simply because those quests are seriously good XP for level 18 on Elite, people on the TR train save those quests because of the large amount of XP needed to reach level 20 especially on 3rd life (or more) characters. I have leg PUGs for these so many times and generally they fill up in minutes, add to all of this Green Steel and it's a no brainer regardless of whether or not a player will see Green Steel on a first life it is there ready to be run when they are ready to do so.

As for Delera's again the XP for the quests are very very good (for the most part) and Voice of the Master is still an excellent item especially for players who have less content to play and/or multiple characters. Getting that 5% boost doesn't sound like much but it adds up over time.

As for Shavarath don't get me started! The XP in those quests is utter garbage and needs to be almost doubled if not more due to the length and difficulty of them, yes OK you can get the Yugo pots out of them but people wait until well in to epics before doing so to make it far easier on themselves.

Necro I-IV should be nearer the top of the list (imo) for the very good XP they offer, personally I used to hate them with a passion but the XP is just too good to ignore.

Finally 3 Barrel Cove... on a first life for a new player they may well spend time over there (I did) but the XP for the heroics wasn't great (though I think this has been bumped up I'm not sure) but they can be hard on new(er) players and there is simply so much content at that level range that it's rather pointless in buying. Saying it has been Epified is all well and good but people have got to get to Epics in the first place so buying a pack just so it can be played on Epic is pointless, they need the content available to them to reach level 20.

Stoner81.

Manatha
08-17-2014, 09:41 PM
This is all well and good but I'm speaking comparatively and yes obviously there's people out there who like Threnal {I like Restless Isles but I know most can't stand em.}.

What I'm doing here though is giving Newbies my reasons why certain packs are the top dogs and others just aren't worth it unless you've got everything else.

Here's the full list {not counting Expansions}

1. Sands
2. Gianthold
3. Necro IV
4. 3BC
5. Vale
6. VoN
7. Necro II

I'd skip IQ and Shavarath as far as this priority, I have an 8th life TR that barely runs them. Without epic destinies and the ability to really effectively get the xp to level into epics with this - I just don't see them being priority. If you're 'first life' etc and grinding for packs, these just won't do enough most of the time.



10. Sentinels
11. Devil Assault / Chronoscope

I hesitate to keep DA or Chrono up in there - but, it's what? Two quest pack, yes you can get a lot of XP, but without EDs their value is a little less - HOWEVER, DA is one of the best ways to get tokens to TR. The reason I say 'to TR' is because once you TR all that favor gets reset, and it allows you to grind up new favor to buy more packs. Until you have EDs it's not worth worrying about speed leveling in the epics.


12. Catacombs
13. Necro I
14. Delera's
15. Dreaming Dark

Again, I hesitate on IQ2/Dreaming dark, but because of the iouns I have a hard time bumping it too much down, but it'd definitely be below restless isle on my list of things to get. I'd probably put Thernal above restless isle, in part because of the amount of favor you get.


16. Harbinger of Madness
17. Tangleroot Gorge
18. Attack on Stormreach
19. Necro III
20. High Road
21. Shan To Kor
22. Sorrowdusk Isle
23. Restless Isles
24. Cannith Manufactory
25. Reign of Madness
26. Druid's Deep
27. Reaver's Refuge
28. Sharn Syndicate
29. Threnal
30. Cannith Challenges

I think that's all of them.

Now yes you can make a case that Threnal is a better buy than Sharn {Personally Sharn's cheap so an easier buy than Threnal}.
But can you really make a case for Threnal over ANY other pack in that list?



Necro I & III btw would be MUCH lower on the list if it wasn't for Silver Flame Pots - It doesn't matter how many people HATE those packs - They're higher on the list than they deserve to be for that reason alone!



EDIT: NEW: bottom place goes to Cannith Challenges for obvious reasons!
For points spent, Thernal is actually a solid pack to gain favor. You have to remember those of us that grind full F2P are not just looking at the bang for leveling, but the bang in favor vs points spent. Thernal is good for that, and yes, I run it MUCH more frequently than some of the other packs on the list.

20. High Road - I very very rarely use, the simple reason for that is for it's level range, and for my F2P account that doesnt yet have EDs I'm better off hitting DA or the spinner's quest chain.

8 and 9, as I said, I TR frequently, my F2P account isnt going to touch these as much. I generally hold 19 so I can skip straight to 20 to TR unless there's a good reason not to. Shavarath just isnt something I see enough successful elite groups running through that aren't experienced to really list it high on the 'must haves' for a new player. IQ 1 I don't list very high for the same general reason. I don't see it run as often, so I don't worry about getting it among the 'first' to have.

Thernal I'd put more in the 8 and 9 slots, and boost the cannith quests at #15 closer to the top in place of Dreaming Dark, with dreaming dark possibly bumping everything else down a rank.

I do Thernal every life, same with Sharn - there's some solid BTAs off the Sharn series even if you're not looking at the crafting, but are considering the low level gear. The fact is, with a good guild the sharn gear is something to look at - but, I'd probably put Cannith quests (not challenges) above Sharn because to be able to effectively use any of the BTA gear, you will need to have masterful crafting.

Most servers have a few that are happy to do the crafting for materials (I think my guild on Khyber has two of us) so the Cannith Crafting is still going to help you gear - the reason I use this as part of 'why' I'd put Cannith up there with thernal is Masterful crafting ONLY requires a 33 crafting skill. You can get that off of breaking items, and, it turns more of the sharn and thernal acquired loot into viable account bound gear that can be used at an earlier level.

The thing you have to remember is until someone gets the EDs, the chains you're putting at high priority because of epic content are not nearly that important - they want the highest favor possible for the lowest TP, and the quickest path to TR without having to wait a week on ransack.

Manatha
08-17-2014, 09:45 PM
Just because it is an "old" way of thinking doesn't mean it is wrong... if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Getting a group to fill which is over level for Vale is very unlikely to happen (in my experience) simply because those quests are seriously good XP for level 18 on Elite, people on the TR train save those quests because of the large amount of XP needed to reach level 20 especially on 3rd life (or more) characters. I have leg PUGs for these so many times and generally they fill up in minutes, add to all of this Green Steel and it's a no brainer regardless of whether or not a player will see Green Steel on a first life it is there ready to be run when they are ready to do so.

As for Delera's again the XP for the quests are very very good (for the most part) and Voice of the Master is still an excellent item especially for players who have less content to play and/or multiple characters. Getting that 5% boost doesn't sound like much but it adds up over time.

As for Shavarath don't get me started! The XP in those quests is utter garbage and needs to be almost doubled if not more due to the length and difficulty of them, yes OK you can get the Yugo pots out of them but people wait until well in to epics before doing so to make it far easier on themselves.

Necro I-IV should be nearer the top of the list (imo) for the very good XP they offer, personally I used to hate them with a passion but the XP is just too good to ignore.

Finally 3 Barrel Cove... on a first life for a new player they may well spend time over there (I did) but the XP for the heroics wasn't great (though I think this has been bumped up I'm not sure) but they can be hard on new(er) players and there is simply so much content at that level range that it's rather pointless in buying. Saying it has been Epified is all well and good but people have got to get to Epics in the first place so buying a pack just so it can be played on Epic is pointless, they need the content available to them to reach level 20.

Stoner81.
Agreed 100% on the assessment of 3bc. Even once I hit life 3, they just were not on the 'omg, must run' list for xp. I did them because they're good favor, and I TRed well before I saw them on epic. For first life they were more on the meh side of things because the difficulty vs xp, and the time it takes to run/fill the quests isnt worth it. This last life we ended up just running with hires through there even though it's the pack people have bumped up on their priority list because of epics.

wayreth602
08-18-2014, 12:24 AM
Purple Dragon Knight is also a bit of a newbie trap. The Shadowfell packs in the DDO store all include it. Buying it separately is pointless unless you have TP to burn.

On a F2P all iconics are a trap without the various epic packs.

Ykt
08-18-2014, 01:08 AM
playing past Lvl 20 where there's absolutely NO F2P Quests!

This shows how little you know about the game.

Here's some F2P quests past lvl 20:
http://ddowiki.com/page/A_Study_in_Sable
http://ddowiki.com/page/Brothers_of_the_Forge
http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Lords_of_Dust
http://ddowiki.com/page/Servants_of_the_Overlord
http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Spinner_of_Shadows
http://ddowiki.com/page/Beyond_the_Rift




Threnal Pack
Seriously - This is the absolute LAST pack you should buy - Every other pack is better!


Yeah right.

9 main quests + 4 additional quests + a wilderness area + great items

Also a DDO classic: Coyle.

droid327
08-18-2014, 01:41 AM
I really think, especially as this is in the New Player forum, that you cant talk about the best way to spend your TP unless you address one question first:

Pure F2P, or buy MotU Standard?

That decision drastically changes the calculus about your pack priorities...Lordsmarch fills much of the same void that Sands does, pushing GH up a little higher IMO. IQ and DD help fill out the end of Heroic, meaning the biggest gap (and priority, after GH) is right in the Vale level range.

That decision, also, should be made as early as possible, to take the most advantage of it, and to avoid buying anything with your free TP that gets bundled with it.

Also, I back the blanket statement that you should buy *nothing* but Quest Packs until you've acquired *all* the quest packs. Not even Shared Bank (I don't own it and I get by fine); you shouldn't have more than 1-2 regular chars until you've gotten them both to Epic. The only exceptions are if you're sure you want to run with a Monk or Arti main, and then if you want a WF Arti. I don't regret spending $ so my first char could be a WF Arti.

Also wait until QPs go on sale, or there's a choose-your-own sale, if at all possible.

Wanesa
08-18-2014, 02:03 AM
Buy Vale, still covers 14-19 levels, there are also two wilderness a three raids (subterrane, Shroud, Hound and VoD).
Buy epic packs in priority. Devil Assault, Phiarlan Carnival, The Red Fens, The Druid's Deep, 3BC, Sentinels, etc.

GH and Demon Sands are too expensive.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Adventure_Packs


It is better to buy MotD, Wheloon and Stormhorns as whole pack.

Wanesa
08-18-2014, 02:08 AM
Not even Shared Bank (I don't own it and I get by fine); you shouldn't have more than 1-2 regular chars until you've gotten them both to Epic


Shared bank is great if you have two or more toons especially when one of them is focusing to crafting. And crafting really helps reaching epic level and it is useless when this is achieved unless your toon need to craft for another low level toon.

droid327
08-18-2014, 03:00 AM
Shared bank is great if you have two or more toons especially when one of them is focusing to crafting. And crafting really helps reaching epic level and it is useless when this is achieved unless your toon need to craft for another low level toon.

Counterpoint....like I said, new players should focus on 1-2 chars max until they're both to 20. Otherwise you spend too much time and/or in-game resources repeatedly acquiring the same benefits for all your alts - eg full stat tomes to +2, QOL items like PPoT and ES key, your collection of BtC farmed items, various Favor milestones, unlocking Quick Travel destinations, flagging for Litany, etc.

Shared Stash is a convenience, but the price is way too high for what you get, compared to how much content you could get for the same amount of TP. Crafting is absolutely worth grinding, but one crafting char can make unbound shards for your alts - and the few shards that don't have unbound versions are only for higher Heroic levels, when lootgen or named items surpasses crafting. BtA named items (as opposed to BTC or Unbound) are convenient for twinking, but the amount of time it saves you to share isn't that great over just farming the items you need on each char, for the few BtA items you may want. If you're playing just a few chars, they'll be different playstyles and wont be able to share much anyway.

I get that Shared Stash is a huge boon to players with serious altitis - but I think that new players really need to be disciplined, rein in the urge to give in to altaholism with Shared Stash, buying character slots, etc. You need to play one char all the way to 20 before you've actually learned the game (ie what actually matters and what's just waste or noob trap dead ends or PnP concepts that don't translate to DDO). Having 6 characters between L4 and L10 means you probably have wasted hours on at least one character that works great in Harbor but you'll eventually learn isn't viable. And with TR, you're better served playing one or two chars through multiple lives rather than multiple first-life characters in parallel.

By the time you're ready to add that 3rd, 4th, 5th char, when Shared Stash really starts to matter, you should have all your core content already acquired. Shared Stash is not really on the "new player menu".

Lallajulia
08-18-2014, 09:47 AM
good job. still... i think vale is number one to try get(greensteel makes every next life much easier), second is gianthold and third is von. free epics are lod chain and few others.

FranOhmsford
08-18-2014, 11:54 AM
Buy Vale, still covers 14-19 levels, there are also two wilderness a three raids (subterrane, Shroud, Hound and VoD).
Buy epic packs in priority. Devil Assault, Phiarlan Carnival, The Red Fens, The Druid's Deep, 3BC, Sentinels, etc.

GH and Demon Sands are too expensive.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Adventure_Packs

It is better to buy MotD, Wheloon and Stormhorns as whole pack.

Uh Wheloon/Stormhorns = Shadowfell - The SECOND Expansion!
I'll go into MotU Later!

GH and Demon Sands are too expensive?
And VALE ISN'T!?!

Carnival is part of the MotU Expansion as has been pointed out.
It's also Phiarlan Favour, Only 4 Quests and its loot has been wildly outdated {except for the Axe of course!}.

Fens again is 4 Quests and again its loot is weak nowadays.

Druid's Deep is simply horrid! {Still a Viable pack because of Epic availability yes BUT no way in the top 15 packs to buy

Sentinels as it's now part of the 3BC Saga beats out Carnival, Druid's Deep and Fens easily.


DA and 3BC however are both strong packs - DA for Tokens for TRing and for Chronoscope, 3BC for its fabulous Explorer Zone with Heroic and Epic difficulties, 9 Quests on Heroic and 5 Epic!
Yes there's many people who hate it with a passion and will always hate it BUT again a lot of that is due to 2010 thinking...when 3BC was a dead area which only people like myself ever entered!
3BC is a Strong Pack now whether you personally like it or not!



As for Vale - 3 Raids - 2 of which are essentially dead!
5 Quests - Which if you miss the TR train BB runs you'll have serious trouble with as a newbie! AND many Vets don't want newbies messing up their Flawless Flagging runs either {which will cause a lot of friction unfortunately.}.
2 Slayer Zones - One of which is a Raid Zone that you'll be lucky to get any XP or Kills out of as most people running it nowadays are Lvl 22+ and therefore over the max level for the Zone!
This means that they're getting only HALF the XP at most and if you're Lvl 21 or below you'll get ZERO kills unless a known Bug happens!

Someone also stated that Vale and GH fill different levelling Zones - Not any more they don't!
Vale is Lvl 16 , GH is 13-14 - GH with its multiple saga runs and massive popularity now can take a 1st Lifer to Lvl 20 {IF you wait till 15 to start running it!}.
If you're running it at 13 then yes you're going to need higher level content and Vale is still the best Lvl 16-20 P2P pack in the game!
BUT
You'll run out of easy XP from F2P quests at Lvl 9 {Church and the Cult is the only Lvl 9 F2P quest, there's like 3 at Lvl 10 and 4 at Lvl 11 and Lvl 12 - That's just not enough to keep you going.

You'll NEED a Strong Pack at these levels and Sands is by far the strongest! - 9 Quests, a Raid and one of if not the best Explorer Zone in the game!
Someone stated Lordsmarch as a viable alternative to Sands - 4 Quests! That's IT! - It's a nice pack to buy yes BUT in the top 10? Heck No!


Vale is NOT a BAD pack to buy - It's STILL in my TOP 5!
However - It's no longer outright #1!


Someone else stated that MotU should have been at the top of my list of Packs - Uh..Sorry But that is an Expansion and I specifically stated that I was talking about Packs NOT Expansions!
IF you have the Money and the WILL to spend said Money then of course MotU Should be on your list to Buy AS SOON AS you hit Lvl 20!
BUT this thread is for people who don't have the Money or the WILL to spend the Money and are after ways to keep playing this game for free!
THOSE People aren't going to have 4000TP saved up and will need content to get them to Lvl 20 in the first place - GH and Sands because of having both Mid Level Heroic content AND Epic Content fulfill this requirement - EDs at 1000TP do the rest!

OH and P.S. Biggest Newbie Trap in this game = Taking Lvl 19! DON'T - Stay at 18 till you're 1xp away from Lvl 20 THEN take 19, step into any explorer zone {even KORTHOS!} and kill a rare!

FranOhmsford
08-18-2014, 12:07 PM
This shows how little you know about the game.

Here's some F2P quests past lvl 20:
http://ddowiki.com/page/A_Study_in_Sable
http://ddowiki.com/page/Brothers_of_the_Forge
http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Lords_of_Dust
http://ddowiki.com/page/Servants_of_the_Overlord
http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Spinner_of_Shadows
http://ddowiki.com/page/Beyond_the_Rift




You're late to the party - All these have been mentioned and I apologised for forgetting the LoD chain.

However: Brothers of the Forge and Study in Sable are BASE Lvl 26!
AND BRAND SPANKING NEW!
They're a sop to F2Pers and nothing more!


Yeah right.

9 main quests + 4 additional quests + a wilderness area + great items

Also a DDO classic: Coyle.

9 main quests in a multi chain pack that regularly messes up the flagging {only like twice for me BUT we've all heard the stories!}.
I'm not even counting the Giant Caves or The Arena as the Compendium doesn't count them and they give NO Favour!
The Wilderness area is a JOKE - No Explorer or Rares and about 350xp total!

And good luck ever getting a group together as a newbie!
TR trains rarely put this up on the LFM as the first quests are so short {can be done in a minute, 3 at most!} and anyone joining is likely to mean having to go back and catch them up!
Favour runs are a bit better off but chances are the same problem will arise - Starting IP is a No-No and people don't like to wait!

FranOhmsford
08-18-2014, 12:25 PM
Counterpoint....like I said, new players should focus on 1-2 chars max until they're both to 20.

What new players SHOULD do {according to you!} and what they do do are totally different things!

Most new players will test the waters and play multiple alts to get a feel of how each plays before really getting into the Grind!

Yes the ones coming from other MMOs may want to level as fast as possible to get to an End-Game that doesn't exist yet BUT these are the exception NOT the rule!

I'd been playing over a year before I had a character hit Lvl 20 and only then because I was running that character {a Pure Paladin!} with one of those newbies who'd come from WoW/Perfect World and I wasn't ready for Lvl 20 content when I got there! {I TRd ASAP}.

My 17 Cleric/3 Fighter - Jelina - was my 2nd Lvl 20 Character and she had issues with standard questing once there - she was fine in Raids or Pre MotU Epics with a group! where all she had to do was heal but had ZERO DPS and not much survivability in shortman questing or even solo Slaying!


Many of the Players I ran with regularly back then vanished long before they hit 20! {In fact most never made it past Lvl 10!}.
And every single one of them HAD ALTS!

Those that had the least Alts {just 1 or 2} left the quickest! {Probably something to do with having invested so little into the game!}.
Yes they tended to get further up the ladder BUT once they'd left behind those they regularly ran with they lost interest!


There's also huge discrepancies as you level up - Lvl 7 Content can cause re-rolls, Lvl 12 Content can cause re-rolls, Lvl 16 Content things get really difficult for new players who haven't got multiple alts to turn to!
Lvl 18-19 Content Mob CRs enter the ridiculous!

BOTH Those first two characters I got to Lvl 20 {1 on Sarlona, the other on Cannith} left the rest of my stable of alts on each server way behind!
I think the highest level alts I had on Cannith when Jelina hit 20 were Enoch and Sylveria at 13 or 14!
The highest level alt I had on Sarlona when Keltenn hit 20 was no higher than Lvl 8!

Racing to 20 can be a mistake in itself!!!

EllisDee37
08-18-2014, 12:49 PM
BtA Craftable blanks I just don't see as a priority for newbies as Crafting has been left to rot by the Devs and the Grind to get viable Crafting Levels is Insane anyway!Viable crafting levels are quite achievable for newbies. If you look at the "Weapon Recipes" link in my signature, all you need to craft up your beaters is crafting level 35/35/35. And almost immediately you can craft invulnerability, which is quite useful. Even apart from that, you don't need any crafting skills at all to get some nice crafted stuff for leveling. Just walk into the crafting all and ask someone to craft it for you. All you need are the essences.


As I've said before: Catacombs beats Sharn on base Favour {which is highly necessary favour too!}, XP, Loot and Cost! {Oh and for a Cleric the fun factor of Cata is through the roof!}.

Honestly I'd give Catacombs a B myself and Sharn a D-.For a new player, Catacombs is worthless favor. It's more favor, for sure -- almost double -- but silver flame favor won't do anything for a new player. The only reason I would recommend someone buy Catacombs before Sharn is if they view DDO as a job. As in, if the idea is to mindlessly roll up new alts and repeatedly grind out a few hundred favor to slowly generate TP, then sure, go Catacombs first. But if you view DDO as a game, Sharn is the one to get first. And both should be just about the last packs to buy.


As for the out of date status: It's not the base info that's the problem but the 2010 thinking - With the changes to the game certain packs have become much more desirable while others have dropped places.Very little is more desirable than Carnifex, and even though Delera's is also all undead all the time, it's the most fun undead content there is. It's also much, much, much easier to group for than Catacombs, and that's generally pretty important for new players. (Note that I do not have 2010 thinking, since I started playing in 2011.)

The ease of grouping argument is even more important to new players when it comes to higher level content, which is why Vale is still such a great pack. Agree on the SubT; it may as well not even exist. I consider Vale to be only Merida/Vale, and I still consider it an excellent purchase for new players.

My advice for a new player remains unchanged:

- Don't spend anything on the game for a few levels
- If by level 6-7 it's clear you're going to want to play DDO for the long haul, start with the following purchases:
1) Shadowfell standard + MotU standard for $50 total (do this by level 7 so you can run Carnival at level)
2) Spend that 2000 TP on Gianthold, Vale and VON during the next "20% off all packs" sale

That right there gets the new player plenty of content to run from 1 to 28, with destinies.


I used to put Sentinels as the absolute last Epic available pack to buy BUT NOW I'd put it ahead of Carnival and Fens any day of the week!Fens has legitimately good loot for a first-lifer. Namely, the mire set. That alone moves Fens way up the priority list, far ahead of Sentinels. (And carnival should pretty much always be acquired via the Shadowfell+MotU bundle.)

Faltout
08-18-2014, 12:50 PM
I didn't read the whole thread, reached till start of 2nd page. Here's my input:

First of all, the top priority of a free player is to get as much content as possible. So there you are absolutely right about purchasing packs.
You refer to a free player as 1st lifer, but that is totally not true. A free player does not want to feel always lesser due to the fact that he's a first lifer. So second priority of a free player is to get sufficient content so he can TR.
And the last thing a free player wants is loot. So, at some point he will have to purchase the Shared Bank. But not anytime soon, cause it takes a long time to accumulate that much loot to fill all slots.

So, the leveling process: The fact that he can't open elite difficulty is a huge pain. The goal is to collect as much favor as possible and not grind it. So you need to complete most of the quests (the exceptions are the raids) on elite difficulty. And having to do the quest 3 times is not an option. So, when choosing the first pack, a free player has to consider 3 things:
- favor
- LFM appearances
- level range and total xp
The level ranges where the free quests are not enough are: 10-13, 15-17, 19-20.
The reason for the first gap is that the only quests there are The Church and the Cult, and the 2 Ataraxia quests. Almost no one runs those quests in LFMs and the gap is hard to fill. Nevertheless, let's say that you can repeatedly do Tempest's Spine that again is not a really common (2 times a day while you're logged in) LFM.
The reason for 15-17 is again 3 quests: Mired in Kobolds, Acid Wit and Delirium. Again, those are not as common on the LFM panel as the Diplomatic Impunity trio a couple levels below.
The reason for 19-20 is that there is only 1 quest: In the Demon's Den. You'll never find an LFM for that (meaning you may wait for a month to find one, and you need to run it multiple times to reach 20).
So, the best solution for those gaps is the Necropolis Bundle. Basically that would be Necro II and IV, but a free player always purchases bundles on sale. Necro II and IV cover the 2 first level ranges (no, Abbot raid does not count for xp). For the last level range, it's not hard to bank that level and replay Lords of Dust chain again and again and again. LFMs are plenty here.

So, top pack is the Necropolis Bundle.
How about TRing? Well, epic Lords of Dust chain is again really common on the LFM panel. If you want some boosts, you get the Vault of Night pack and the Devil Assault pack. Devil Assault is really cheap and gives many tokens, Vault of Night is the most common LFM after Lords of Dust.

Ok, those packs are fine for the first life, but then it gets a little ugly. Again, choice is easy. You get the most common LFM packs: Vale of Twilight, Gianthold, Demon Sands. All those quests along with the already purchased Necro IV make the ride from 12 -> 20 piece of cake on a second and third life. Although admittedly there's a small gap at lvl 17.

1. Necropolis I, II, III, IV
2. Vault of Night
3. Devil Assault
4. Vale of Twilight
5. Ruins of Gianthold
6. Demon Sands
At this point a free player has enough to keep him busy. A ton of commonly ran raids (Vault of Night, Shroud, Ascension Chamber) and some less commonly ran raids (The Reaver's Fate, Zawabi's Revenge, Hound of Xoriat, Vision of Destruction, Chronoscope). Of course Fall of Truth and the 2 free quests above level 25 are out of reach for a free player. The xp gap is too great and also the gear gap is too great too.
So next thing a free player will want will be epic destinies to get some power at last. Because let me tell you, epic levels are a joke without epic destinies. I was level 26 feeling like a level 18. (the -2 from 20 was because of gear gap).

So, next step would be to get epic destinies and shared bank since gear has started to accumulate. At this point any other advice on Store purchases is useless. Comparing packs beyond this point is utterly useless. If a free player wants to purchase Threnal, it doesn't take much. Just one life. One life gives about 500 TP and lives are easy to complete now with all those purchased packs. Also, now he can open elite (being Legend and all) so LFMs don't really matter.
From this point advice is just "no cosmetics" (duh!), "no pets", "no gear" (lol, he has raid gear now). Oh, and "NO CHARACTER RELATED PURCHASES". Getting an extra inventory space is a waste of money since you could purchase another pack.

The above is coming from personal experience as a free player. Now I just purchase the packs and bundles with the highest cost and plan to purchase Monster Manual too for a pet. Also, going to purchase character slots.

Cheers Fran.

Seikojin
08-18-2014, 01:02 PM
Dear OP: could you put prices in the sections for each pack/perk? This way people looking at this can gauge the time investment?

I agree with most choices here, however Threnal is really good exp for its level range. I run it at level every heroic life I roll.

EllisDee37
08-18-2014, 01:13 PM
Uh Wheloon/Stormhorns = Shadowfell - The SECOND Expansion!He's talking about buying them as a single purchase in the market, which is the best first purchase a new player can make. And the ideal time to make that purchase is when you first take level 7 (not 20) so that you can run carnival at level.


Fens again is 4 Quests and again its loot is weak nowadays.The mire set is excellent loot for new players as well as TRs.


GH with its multiple saga runs and massive popularity now can take a 1st Lifer to Lvl 20There is only one heroic Gianthold saga, and my understanding is that heroic sagas cannot be repeated.


You'll NEED a Strong Pack at these levels and Sands is by far the strongest! - 9 Quests, a Raid and one of if not the best Explorer Zone in the game!
Someone stated Lordsmarch as a viable alternative to Sands - 4 Quests! That's IT! - It's a nice pack to buy yes BUT in the top 10? Heck No!I'm not in love with sands for new players. If the walkups had epic versions I would, but with nothing but the flagging/raid on epic it doesn't offer enough for a new player to justify its cost as one of your first packs.


Someone else stated that MotU should have been at the top of my list of Packs - Uh..Sorry But that is an Expansion and I specifically stated that I was talking about Packs NOT Expansions!
IF you have the Money and the WILL to spend said Money then of course MotU Should be on your list to Buy AS SOON AS you hit Lvl 20!I disagree with this. The expansions should ideally be the first thing you ever purchase, and it should be made early. (By level 7.) Not only to be able to run carnival at level, but also to get your 2000 TP as early as possible to be prepared for the next pack sale, when you can pick up Gianthold, Vale and VON and be "done" buying content in terms of being able to level from 1 to 28.

Gizeh
08-18-2014, 02:59 PM
If you put Delera's at place 14 you don't seem to realize the impact on xp that the voice of the master has, even on a first life character and especially if the player does not have access to all adventure packs.

FranOhmsford
08-18-2014, 04:06 PM
He's talking about buying them as a single purchase in the market, which is the best first purchase a new player can make. And the ideal time to make that purchase is when you first take level 7 (not 20) so that you can run carnival at level.

IF said player can afford that cash outlay!

Most can't!


The mire set is excellent loot for new players as well as TRs.

You've said this twice now and it's absolute rot!

I've always liked the Mire Set - Heck I've got it on most of my characters!
BUT
The Devs basically killed it when they made Speed and Underwater Action items so common even at lower levels!

Heck a couple of Anger's Boots and you don't even need a Speed item till u can get Speed VI!


There is only one heroic Gianthold saga, and my understanding is that heroic sagas cannot be repeated.

Your understanding is wrong!

Heroic GH can be repeated as many times as you like - Cordovan's even posted that in the thread complaining about Heroic Sagas not being repeatable {btw it's 3BC/Sentinels that isn't repeatable NOT all Heroic Sagas!}.


I'm not in love with sands for new players. If the walkups had epic versions I would, but with nothing but the flagging/raid on epic it doesn't offer enough for a new player to justify its cost as one of your first packs.

That's 1 of the most popular quests in game +3 other Epic quests!

And Heroic Sands is by far the best Mid Level Content a new player can purchase for size vs outlay

It even beats VoN and Necro II for me BUT those are lower level content anyway so really you're putting it up against Necro III {Terrible}, Attack on Stormreach {4 quests!} and Restless Isles {which I'm about the only person on these forums that actually likes!}


I disagree with this. The expansions should ideally be the first thing you ever purchase, and it should be made early. (By level 7.) Not only to be able to run carnival at level, but also to get your 2000 TP as early as possible to be prepared for the next pack sale, when you can pick up Gianthold, Vale and VON and be "done" buying content in terms of being able to level from 1 to 28.

Newbies DON'T wait till Lvl 7 to start purchasing! They simply don't!

Now yes in an ideal world they would BUT Carnival just doesn't have that much recommending it anymore and as it comes with the Expansion it's better TR content than 1st life content!

3BC/Sentinels/Delera's/Tangleroot - I'd put them all ahead of Carnival now - Especially as I'd recommend new players get the Expansion if they know they're going to stick around!

Pack Sales are completely random and you never know when the packs you want are going to go on sale - I daresay many newbies would get pretty irritated at waiting and waiting for those packs to come on sale and in the meantime having nothing to do!


And Frankly I see PLENTY of Catacombs and STK LFMs - I don't see all that many Sharn LFMs!

For newbies Sharn basically requires a trapper and with vets horrified at even the thought of waiting Sharn LFMs just sit there until the leader gives up and goes home!
Either that or some Uber Vet joins and immediately harasses the newbie to start - Newbie barely even gets into each quest before Uber Vet has finished it - and Newbie decides this game isn't for them!

Now yes...Catacombs has this same problem - It's an issue with every pack that has short quests - Threnal for instance!
BUT
Nowhere is it as pronounced as it is with Sharn!


Personally - I've never liked Deleras - I do however like Catacombs, Necro I and Necro II - So I definitely don't agree that Delera's is the funnest Undead content - For me it's quite the opposite - I find it tedious in the extreme!



If I was advising an altoholic like myself which packs to buy I'd give this order:

Catacombs
The Landlubber Bundle {3BC/Sentinels/Lordsmarch}
Necro I&2 {The whole Bundle if you can afford it!}
Vault of Night
Sands
Gianthold
Vale
IQ/DD
MotU

Necro IV would be at the end of that list IF the player was unable to buy the Bundle. {Necro III would not be recommended unless as part of the bundle.


BUT I'm not advising altoholics like myself - I'm giving a list of the best packs to buy to get the most out of this game and that's:

Sands - 950 pts
Gianthold - 950 pts
Necro IV - 850 pts {Bundle = 1495}
3BC/Sentinels/Attack on Stormreach Landlubber Bundle - 1195 pts
Vale - 850 pts
Vault of Night - 750 pts
Necro II - 350 pts if purchased alone


I've left the Expansions off the list because these are for true cash P2Pers NOT Favour TP only Players!
Just like I left the Necro Bundle off as again that's only really affordable if you're actually putting cash into the game!

Qhualor
08-18-2014, 04:06 PM
The mire set is excellent loot for new players as well as TRs.

have to disagree. for a first lifer, than yes, its good loot for them and easier to acquire since its almost guaranteed to drop in the end rewards. not for TRs though. Fens set wears out its usefulness after a couple levels, but you can get junk loot that are better to use. I used to wear the set every life a few years ago, but I vendored mine when gen loot got an upgrade with masterful craftsmanship, lowering of min levels of some loot, etc.

FranOhmsford
08-18-2014, 04:21 PM
If you put Delera's at place 14 you don't seem to realize the impact on xp that the voice of the master has, even on a first life character and especially if the player does not have access to all adventure packs.

An impact on XP that I've NEVER needed - Even before I went VIP!

I didn't need it when I was new - I certainly don't need it now!

It's a nice bonus but that's ALL it is!

A new player running N/H/E simply doesn't need MORE xp - They're already gaining more than they can use!

A new player getting into the right groups and running E-BB is earning even more!

A new player getting into TR runs and running Kobold's Ringleader, Tear of Dhakaan, VoN 3, Shadow Crypt, Wiz King etc. MISSES HALF THE GAME!


I'm not aiming this thread at those who are only interested in racing to cap then doing it again and again and again!

BUT for those newbies who do wish to play that way here's another list for ya:

Shan to Kor
Delera's
Necro II
Vault of Night
Sands
Gianthold
Vale
IQ/DD
Menace of the Underdark Expansion!
Necro I and IV for TR lives!

That's in Level Order so IF you BUY those packs as you get to the level of each pack you'll have the MOST POPULAR XP Quests to run as you level!


And note: Again Vale is lower than Sands and Gianthold - That's because it's Higher Level and those people running this way will want the Lower Level packs first!

FranOhmsford
08-18-2014, 04:34 PM
have to disagree. for a first lifer, than yes, its good loot for them and easier to acquire since its almost guaranteed to drop in the end rewards. not for TRs though. Fens set wears out its usefulness after a couple levels, but you can get junk loot that are better to use. I used to wear the set every life a few years ago, but I vendored mine when gen loot got an upgrade with masterful craftsmanship, lowering of min levels of some loot, etc.

Having multiple characters that I wanted the Mire Set for I found out that you're not even close to guaranteed to get EITHER item in the end reward list NEVER MIND BOTH!


Also Fens suffers heavily from being higher base level than its loot!

The Min lvl 7 loot was great when it came out but was quickly outstripped when Cannith Crafting arrived - Then we got the Random item Min Lvl drop and Fens loot became a trap!

Also there's a good chance that a Newbie is going to be Lvl 10-11 before even running this content and therefore looking for far better gear than Red Fens provides!

And for a TR to be running the Mire Set? I'm sorry but I don't believe this is happening any more!

Let's not even get into the problems with Older Epics vs E-Star/King's Forest Comms gear!

Stoner81
08-18-2014, 04:35 PM
Stay at 18 till you're 1xp away from Lvl 20 THEN take 19, step into any explorer zone {even KORTHOS!} and kill a rare!

No need to do this, you can go from level 18 straight to level 20.

Stoner81.

Qhualor
08-18-2014, 04:44 PM
No need to do this, you can go from level 18 straight to level 20.

Stoner81.

you still need that 1 xp to hit 20. I capped banking 19 last life. I could no longer earn xp, so I had to take 19 and than ran out to a wilderness to get that last xp to actually hit level 20.

Stoner81
08-18-2014, 04:47 PM
you still need that 1 xp to hit 20. I capped banking 19 last life. I could no longer earn xp, so I had to take 19 and than ran out to a wilderness to get that last xp to actually hit level 20.

No you don't. It is the only time you can go the full two levels, I have done it on nearly every life of my main TR toon. Having said that I am VIP so it could be that but I don't know for sure but I do know for a fact that I go from 18 to level 20 in one go.

EDIT - http://ddowiki.com/page/Talk:Experience_points

Stoner81.

FranOhmsford
08-18-2014, 04:56 PM
No you don't. It is the only time you can go the full two levels, I have done it on nearly every life of my main TR toon. Having said that I am VIP so it could be that but I don't know for sure but I do know for a fact that I go from 18 to level 20 in one go.

EDIT - http://ddowiki.com/page/Talk:Experience_points

Stoner81.

Doesn't seem to work for everyone so let's not argue about it - The main fact is that taking Lvl 19 is a Trap either way!

Qhualor
08-18-2014, 05:02 PM
No you don't. It is the only time you can go the full two levels, I have done it on nearly every life of my main TR toon. Having said that I am VIP so it could be that but I don't know for sure but I do know for a fact that I go from 18 to level 20 in one go.

EDIT - http://ddowiki.com/page/Talk:Experience_points

Stoner81.

yes you do. I just did it last life.

EllisDee37
08-18-2014, 05:18 PM
have to disagree. for a first lifer, than yes, its good loot for them and easier to acquire since its almost guaranteed to drop in the end rewards. not for TRs though. Fens set wears out its usefulness after a couple levels, but you can get junk loot that are better to use. I used to wear the set every life a few years ago, but I vendored mine when gen loot got an upgrade with masterful craftsmanship, lowering of min levels of some loot, etc.All my TRs happily wear mire from 7 to 17, switching to rocket boots at 18. Striding 24%, spearblock, and jump/balance +7 is all good. I particularly like the spearblock.


Having multiple characters that I wanted the Mire Set for I found out that you're not even close to guaranteed to get EITHER item in the end reward list NEVER MIND BOTH!Except for 3rd lists, where all fens items are guaranteed. Each individual fens quest has its own 3rd list counter.


The Min lvl 7 loot was great when it came out but was quickly outstripped when Cannith Crafting arrived - Then we got the Random item Min Lvl drop and Fens loot became a trap!Cannith crafting tops out at 20% striding, which to me is just too slow. I also prefer not relying on expeditious retreat past around level 9 due to all the dispelling that mobs seem to love starting around then.

As for speed items, I don't wear them because the alacrity is so weak. I equip 10% alacrity at level 1 on all my melee alts and keep it (in various locations/forms) until 27, when I take blinding speed. Meaning speed items do nothing for me except striding, which I already have covered starting at level 7 with mire.

FranOhmsford
08-18-2014, 05:55 PM
All my TRs happily wear mire from 7 to 17, switching to rocket boots at 18. Striding 24%, spearblock, and jump/balance +7 is all good. I particularly like the spearblock.

The Spearblock is commonly available elsewhere.

Jump/Balance +7 is neither here nor there.

and 24% Striding is weaker than Expeditious!


Except for 3rd lists, where all fens items are guaranteed. Each individual fens quest has its own 3rd list counter.

Now you're expecting Newbies to grind out 3 completions?
BEFORE they've severely overlevelled the Loot?


Cannith crafting tops out at 20% striding, which to me is just too slow. I also prefer not relying on expeditious retreat past around level 9 due to all the dispelling that mobs seem to love starting around then.

Striding 30% is everywhere at Min Lvl 9 {and not that hard to find at Min Lvl 7.}

The worst place for Dispel is Sands - Now I know why you're not all that fond of the place.

And yes Expeditious on a Min Lvl 1 item is going to last all of 1 second in the Scorrow Zone BUT this is Lvl 11+ Content {who goes into Sands before Lvl 11?}.
Speed VI - Otherwise known as Striding 30% is commonly available at this point!


As for speed items, I don't wear them because the alacrity is so weak. I equip 10% alacrity at level 1 on all my melee alts and keep it (in various locations/forms) until 27, when I take blinding speed. Meaning speed items do nothing for me except striding, which I already have covered starting at level 7 with mire.

So you're taking up an item slot on a Crafted Alacrity item?

I have enough trouble fitting everything in without losing a slot.

And Boots are the obvious slot for Speed/Striding.


Look...I get it...I like the Mired Set too {I wish it was upgraded when so much else got upgraded but I do like the set!}.
However:
I'm simply NOT going to tell Newbies to grind out gear that is so easily replaceable with random loot off the AH!
AND
I'm NOT going to recommend Red Fens on such a weak premise comparative to other packs!


We've got multiple people in this thread who've come out of the woodwork to champion Threnal completely ignoring that I'm talking about comparisons with other packs and Red Fens like Threnal just doesn't stand up against its competition!

Threnal & Red Fens are in direct competition with Vault of Night, Necro II & Sorrowdusk!

Are you going to tell me that Red Fens is a better buy than VoN or Necro II?

Personally I'd say its about equal with Sorrowdusk and way ahead of Threnal BUT recommend it as an early buy for newbies? NOT A CHANCE!

Gizeh
08-18-2014, 06:41 PM
[...]

Now you're expecting Newbies to grind out 3 completions?
BEFORE they've severely overlevelled the Loot?

[...]

Actually, here's (part of) your response to me pointing out the importance of the voice of the master:


[...]

A new player running N/H/E simply doesn't need MORE xp - They're already gaining more than they can use!

[...]

Doesn't that imply that you pretty much expect newbies to grind out 3 completions?

FranOhmsford
08-18-2014, 08:30 PM
Actually, here's (part of) your response to me pointing out the importance of the voice of the master:



Doesn't that imply that you pretty much expect newbies to grind out 3 completions?

Taken out of context yes it would.

BUT

You've deliberately ignored that I was listing possible ways for newbies to level up in that reply and this was just one of those ways!

Ykt
08-19-2014, 12:27 AM
No you don't. It is the only time you can go the full two levels, I have done it on nearly every life of my main TR toon. Having said that I am VIP so it could be that but I don't know for sure but I do know for a fact that I go from 18 to level 20 in one go.

EDIT - http://ddowiki.com/page/Talk:Experience_points

Stoner81.

Same here, and I'm not VIP.

EllisDee37
08-19-2014, 01:50 AM
So you're taking up an item slot on a Crafted Alacrity item?

I have enough trouble fitting everything in without losing a slot.

And Boots are the obvious slot for Speed/Striding.Yes, I am most definitely slotting melee alacrity. The flexible version goes literally anywhere. One example is my fighter, who starts off with it on crafted belts but then once he gets to level 10 it's slotted into three different versions of spare hand. (ML8, 12 and 16.) My paladin, OTOH, slots it into trinket, goggles, and armor depending on his level.

I'm not a fan of giving away attack speed.

FranOhmsford
08-19-2014, 06:35 AM
Yes, I am most definitely slotting melee alacrity. The flexible version goes literally anywhere. One example is my fighter, who starts off with it on crafted belts but then once he gets to level 10 it's slotted into three different versions of spare hand. (ML8, 12 and 16.) My paladin, OTOH, slots it into trinket, goggles, and armor depending on his level.

I'm not a fan of giving away attack speed.

According to DDOWiki:
Base Melee Alacrity requires Lvl 76 Crafting!
Flexible requires Lvl 130!!!

I'm guessing that's for BOUND too so no asking someone else to make it for you!

Until Turbine actually fixes Cannith Crafting to be viable this is just way too much of a Grind to recommend to Newbies!

We want them to play the game after all NOT spend all day every day in the Crafting Hall! {+ Newbies would have to EARN their ingredients unless they're willing to BUY stuff off the DDOStore that they can sell for MILLIONS of Plat!!!}.


You can clearly get away with wearing the Mire Set and an Alacrity item {3 seperate slots taken up!} BUT that's you!

I'm gonna guess you're also wearing a Minos still.

But what are you missing on those Melees at Lvl 17 if you're still wearing Boots of the Mire, Ring of the Mire AND a Melee Alacrity Trinket?

Deadly? {Guessing you don't care for Accuracy?} Seeker? Resistance? Str? Con? Dex? {You're not using Silver Flame Pots so I'll ignore Int, Wis and Cha!} Greater False Life? Sneak Attack? Dusk/Ghostly? Prot/Nat Armour? Dodge? Deathblock? {Guessing you're using GH for Fear Immunity?} PRR?
Also guessing you're using a swap in for Feather Falling.
And using swap ins on Rogues for Search/Disable.

And I'm sure I've missed some stuff!


You've concentrated on Crafting and that's all well and good...And possibly you have the perfect gear set up for all your characters at every level.
BUT that comes after a huge amount of Grinding!
An amount of Grinding that's unlikely to be appealing for a large percentage of newbies {yes there are some coming from other MMOs that actually want Non-Quest related Grinding but that's a minority!}.

It also requires a detailed meta-knowledge of this game and what's needed in different quests - Multiple Bars set up so you can swap in items where necessary and swap them straight back out again!

AND It's way way off-topic for a thread dealing with the best options for F2P Newbies!


I get that you like the Red Fens - I like the Restless Isles but I didn't recommend them either!

I get that you've spent time and effort detailing Cannith Crafting on these forums BUT Cannith Crafting is simply NOT Newbie compatible!


EVERY Pack has its ONE item of use - EVERY Pack has a few people that actually like it - EVERY Pack has at least ONE reason to buy it {Maybe I did exaggerate a bit in the OP saying that Threnal was utterly worthless BUT that was because I was trying to make sure Newbies with only Favour TP to rely on didn't make a mistake and use that Favour TP on the wrong pack!

I like the Mired Set - Again I wish it had got updated along with the rest of the Red Fens, Carnival, Lordsmarch, Madness and Heroic Druids Loot at the same time as multiple other packs and random loot was updated!
BUT Here's a list of Lvl 2-10 packs and my personal Favourite Loot items from each:

Shan to Kor - Flicker {Rune Arm}, Trapblast Goggles {+4 Reflex save at Lvl 1!!!}, Guardian's Dagger {17-20 Crit Range Great Sword!}.

Catacombs - Blade of Inquisition {Min Lvl 2 Silver, Ghost Touch, Lesser Undead Bane Long Sword!!!}, Eternal Rest {Ditto for Handwraps!!!}, Wand of Cure Minor Wounds {Eternal!!!}, Robe of Duality {Best low level Robe in the game!!!}.
+ Marguerite's Necklace, Pillar of Light and Morningstar of the Heretic are all viable choices {though the Necklace isn't as nice as it once was!}.

Sharn Syndicate - Nicked Greatsword, Nicked Scimitar, Nicked Heavy Mace {not as good now as they once were but still viable for their level.}.

Tangleroot - Visor of the Flesh Render Guards {Virtually Mandatory if you listen to Vets Deathward Clickie}, Khyber's Fury {Best Low Level Rune Arm bar NONE!}

Phiarlan Carnival - Antique Greataxe, Utility Vest, Phiarlan Mirror Cloak {All still great at both Heroic and Epic versions!}.

Necro 1 Scarabs - Lumric's Longbow {Ghost Touch Longbow}, Signal of the Silver Flame {Lesser Turning Trinket}.

Heroic 3 Barrel Cove - Greatbow of the Scrag {Bludgeoning Bow}, Chieftain's Spear {Outright best Low Level Staff in the Game!!!}, Kobold Admiral's Uniform {Axeblock & Spearblock on the same item + an Augment Slot for Mod Fort!}, Moonhowl Axe {Cha or Str to Dmg Greatclub}, Tiefling Assassin's Blade {Outright best Low Level Shortsword in the Game!!!}, Scorching Wraps {very strong Low Level Handwraps!}.

Delera's - Carnifex {IF it ever drops for you!!!}, Devotion {Clonk Wraps}, Voice of the Master {IF all you're interested in is fast XP!}.

Devil Assault / Chronoscope - Charged Gauntlets {The extra Dmg from these is available virtually nowhere else!}. Almost everything else has been outdated by changes to the game!

Sentinels of Stormreach - Pretty much everything is long outdated but Bards still like the Elyd Edge {Rapier with Bardic properties!} and of course there's the Blademark's Docent {for WF and Arti Dogs!}.

Sorrowdusk - Quicksilver Cassock {Here's your 10% Melee Alacrity item!!!}, Bubble Belt {Perfect Crucible Swim Gear!!!}.

Necro 2 Scarabs - Signet of the Silver Flame {Min Lvl 7 Int 4, Cha 4, Undead Guard}.

Vault of Night - Not worth talking about Loot as none of it EVER drops!!! {Oh yeah...There's something called a Sword of Shadows that's supposed to drop here but don't count on it!!!}.

Threnal - Mantle of the Worldshaper {Companion item to Voice of the Master - Like Voice used mainly as a swap in and ALWAYS appears on the End Reward List!}, Retribution {Fabulous Long Sword!}, Kundarak Trooper's Shield {Received a pretty massive upgrade last year!!!}, Thanatos Weave {Deathblock Robe} and Theurgic Stave {Very strong Quarterstaff for Stick Builds!}.
Actually this is now a pretty strong list BUT not enough to make the Pack worth getting early.

Red Fens - Souleater {yet another nice Quarterstaff}, Twisted Talisman {SP clickie with a Penalty} and the aforementioned Mire Set {Everything else seems to have been created with Epic in mind and is pretty weak in Heroic! - Also The Red Fens suffered more than pretty much any other older Epic Pack from the New easier to get Epic Gear in Eveningstar!}.

Restless Isles - Ring of the Ancestors {Easy but time consuming to Farm Raise Dead Clickie}.


It's going to be a case of what Character you're playing that makes you choose one pack over another for loot:

Rogues = Shan to Kor {for the Goggles}, Phiarlan Carnival {for the Utility Vest}, 3 Barrel Cove {For either the Staff or the Shortsword + the Kobold Armour!}, DA/Chronoscope {for the Gauntlets}.

Clerics = Catacombs {for Pillar of Light and the Eternal Cure Wand + Massive amounts of Fun Annihilating Undead!!!}, Necro I {for the Turn Trinket and more fun Annihilating Undead!!!}, Necro 2 {Yep More Undead + the Signet is pretty nice too!}, Red Fens {for the Twisted Talisman SP Clickie!}.

Wizards/Sorcs = Catacombs {for the Robe of Duality}, Tangleroot {for the Visor if NOT Pale!}, Red Fens {for the Twisted Talisman IF Pale!}.

Sword and Board Melees = Threnal {for the Shield and Retribution!!!}, Catacombs {for the Blade of Inquisition}, Tangleroot {for the Visor}, DA/Chrono {for the Gauntlets}.

Two Handed Melees = Vault of Night {On the off chance you ever see SoS drop just so you can drool as the Sorc takes it for a TR life!!!}, Shan to Kor {for the Guardian's Dagger}, Carnival {for the Antique G-Axe}, Delera's {for Carnifex!}, Tangleroot {for the Visor} and DA/Chrono {for the Gauntlets}.

Two Wpn Melees = Sharn Syndicate {for the Nicked Scimi}, Tangleroot {for the Visor}, DA/Chrono {for the Gauntlets}, Sorrowdusk {for the Melee Alacrity Robe}.

Monks = Catacombs/Delera's/3 Barrel {for the wraps from each!}, Sorrowdusk {for the Robe}, DA/Chrono {for the Gauntlets}.

Artificers = Tangleroot {for the Rune Arm and the Visor}, STK {for the Rune Arm and the Goggles}, 3 Barrel {for the Kobold Armour}.

Bards = 3 Barrel {for the Guitar!}, Sentinels {for Elyd Edge}, Sorrowdusk {for the Cassock}.

Druids = 3 Barrel {for the Staff and the Armour}, Threnal {for the Staff}, Possibly Sharn Syndicate {for the Scimi}.

Archers = 3 Barrel and Necro I {for the Bows}, Tangleroot {for the Visor}.

FvSouls = Depends on their speciality - WF Melee Souls will want the Greatswords from STK and VoN + the Docent from Sentinels and the Gauntlets from Chronoscope, Caster Souls will want similar gear to Wizards and Sorcs.
Oh and The Eternal Wand of Cure Minor Wounds from Catacombs so you can do as little healing as possible with SPs!!!

ReaperAlexEU
08-19-2014, 07:06 AM
good stuff, but i think it understates the importance of epic destinies. all the pack advice is focused on paving the way for epic levels (*sniff*, poor vale) and rightly so, but as you mention, what are epic levels without epic destinies?

so why then are destinies below every other non-pack option? slap it at the top and scream loud and clear about it! yes the shared bank is great, but compared to destinies it's not must have. yes a monk splash is great, but neither of my 28's has a monk splash, once again nice to have but not must have. iconics, take em or leave em, i mostly use my free purple knight as a bank toon and a way to mess with potential builds when lama is down, hardly compatible to destinies!

go on, give destinies the love they deserve, you know you want to :)

FranOhmsford
08-19-2014, 08:26 AM
good stuff, but i think it understates the importance of epic destinies. all the pack advice is focused on paving the way for epic levels (*sniff*, poor vale) and rightly so, but as you mention, what are epic levels without epic destinies?

so why then are destinies below every other non-pack option? slap it at the top and scream loud and clear about it! yes the shared bank is great, but compared to destinies it's not must have. yes a monk splash is great, but neither of my 28's has a monk splash, once again nice to have but not must have. iconics, take em or leave em, i mostly use my free purple knight as a bank toon and a way to mess with potential builds when lama is down, hardly compatible to destinies!

go on, give destinies the love they deserve, you know you want to :)

Actually I put EDs at the bottom as an addendum - Really they should be Bolded/In a different colour but they're at the bottom/end for this reason:
They're NOT Vital UNLESS you KNOW you're going to be running Epics!!!

Likewise....Vale is a bit too high Base Level for me to put it any higher on this list - Sands and GH aren't just there because they have Epic Viability but because they keep players playing past Lvl 10!!!
Epic Viability is a Bonus NOT the main reason for those packs being high on the list {though I daresay that without Epic Viability Gianthold and the Necro Bundle would be ahead of Sands {WITH Epic Viability Sands wins out over both BECAUSE it has the Lvl 10-14 Zone sewn up! - For me GH and Necro IV start at 15, Vale starts at 18.}.

As such - Chances are that anyone getting ED's/Vale will be paying REAL MONEY to do so {or at least will have BOUGHT TP to supplement their Favour earnings.
IF you're rushing to get to HIGH level content then the chances are good that you're spending money on this game because the Favour TP route is just too slow!

droid327
08-19-2014, 09:34 AM
{WITH Epic Viability Sands wins out over both BECAUSE it has the Lvl 10-14 Zone sewn up! - For me GH and Necro IV start at 15, Vale starts at 18.}.


You seem to switch between assumptions as convenient :)

You're assuming a new player, first life (you've talked about working up N/H/E, for instance). For new players, GH (AZ and walkups) starts at 12 and Necro 4 (AZ and Temple of Vol, maybe Inferno, and if you can CC then Fleshmaker too) starts at 13, and Vale starts at 15. You can start running Normal quests easily one level under, and you're not worrying about your BB streak on a first life especially. Heck, even on a second life, I think you could keep a Hard BB going while still doing the quests one level under (so 14 for GH/Nec, 16 for Vale).

Considering Vale covers players from ~15-20, more than half of the "past 10" content-light zone in terms of the XP curve, I think you've been undervaluing it at the expense of Sands. Sands is nice, but hardly necessary or the only real option in that level range. Players could get by on Attack on Stormreach (Siegebreaker, like Wiz King, is one of those mega-XP quests you run every day, and much easier to get to) until they can jump into the GH walk-ups.

My personal opinion on priority would be GH > Necro (Full>IV) > Vale > Sands = VoN, assuming you want to keep your option open for buying MotU. Sands = VoN even if Sands is better on paper, because I hate running around the desert, and VoN is right there by the teleport/airship. I hardly ever play Sands (the quest I've played the most is the caravan defense because its right in Phiarlan). Content isnt any good if you never want to run it :)

FranOhmsford
08-19-2014, 11:50 AM
You seem to switch between assumptions as convenient :)

Please stop with the Personal Attacks.

You know full well that I was replying to another player and simply listed levelling options - I DID NOT SAY that Newbies HAD to level up N/H/E - In fact I gave 3 different options and listed the problems for newbies of all 3!



You're assuming a new player, first life (you've talked about working up N/H/E, for instance). For new players, GH (AZ and walkups) starts at 12 and Necro 4 (AZ and Temple of Vol, maybe Inferno, and if you can CC then Fleshmaker too) starts at 13, and Vale starts at 15. You can start running Normal quests easily one level under, and you're not worrying about your BB streak on a first life especially. Heck, even on a second life, I think you could keep a Hard BB going while still doing the quests one level under (so 14 for GH/Nec, 16 for Vale).

Hardly anyone runs Normal anymore!

Even less run it BEFORE they've run Elite!

By Lvl 10 Newbies Know they need to be running Elites if they ever want to get a group!

It doesn't matter that you CAN level to 20 on a 1st life just with Normal Quests - People don't work like that - They see everyone else running Elite, they see the better xp, better loot and ESPECIALLY better Favour {we are talking about Favour Farming here!!!} in Elite and they're going to do their absolute best to run Elite if at all possible!!!

And I'm not assuming at all - I'm working from Personal Experience - Trying to solo Normal Fleshmaker at Lvl 13 with no quest knowledge is going to end in tears for the vast majority of Newbies!!!
Heck I couldn't even get through the Slayer at Lvl 13 the first few times!!!
They're far better off waiting till Lvl 16 {by which time they won't look too wimpy to the Group of Vets they join and get that Elite run out the way!
Vol and Inferno may be easier {though they have their own issues} than Fleshmaker or GoP BUT Newbies Soloing Normal at Lvl 13 - No...I really don't think so!!!
Gianthold is a Killer for New toons too - This was where most teen re-rolls happened pre GH Saga allowing people to get to know the quests with less grouping issues!


Considering Vale covers players from ~15-20, more than half of the "past 10" content-light zone in terms of the XP curve, I think you've been undervaluing it at the expense of Sands. Sands is nice, but hardly necessary or the only real option in that level range. Players could get by on Attack on Stormreach (Siegebreaker, like Wiz King, is one of those mega-XP quests you run every day, and much easier to get to) until they can jump into the GH walk-ups.

Newbies going into Vale at Lvl 15 are in for a rude awakening - They've got absolutely no hope of soloing the Flags on Normal UNLESS they're avid MMOers coming from other games {and then they're not really newbies are they!} and are likely to cause that all important {to far too many people} 10% xp loss in Elites!!!

Siegebreaker? You're kidding me right?

Look - Attack on Stormreach is 4 quests - all Lvl 13 {Same as Gianthold!}
Sands is a MASSIVE Slayer Zone, 6 Walkups and 4 Flags along with a Raid that people don't run at level Heroic! {It's also Lvl 10-12 or 12-14 on Elite {heck you can step in there at Lvl 8 or 9 to run the Slayer if you really want to!}.
There's just no comparison!

You may prefer Attack on Stormreach and that's your prerogative. BUT that's a subjective opinion NOT an objective one!!!


My personal opinion on priority would be GH > Necro (Full>IV) > Vale > Sands = VoN, assuming you want to keep your option open for buying MotU. Sands = VoN even if Sands is better on paper, because I hate running around the desert, and VoN is right there by the teleport/airship. I hardly ever play Sands (the quest I've played the most is the caravan defense because its right in Phiarlan). Content isnt any good if you never want to run it :)

VoN again is 4 quests and a 2 pt Raid - Yes 2 of these quests and the pre raid are mega xp and on Epic are run literally hourly! {only VoN 3 has that rate in Heroics though!}.
BUT Wiz King has almost exactly the same run rate as VoN 3 on Epic now and a Higher run rate on Heroics!
CoF and OoB aren't exactly unpopular either!!

Content isn't any good if you never want to run it? Uh...Subjective opinion again!
I have no idea what each and every newbie is going to like and dislike - That is why I've been as objective as possible in this thread - Objectively the Packs I've listed as my top 5 are all in at least the top 8 of probably 75% of the Veteran Population once you take away the Subjective "I don't like this pack so no-one else should like it".

I personally would rather never run The Prisoner again!
I loathe Crucible, Coal Chamber, Wiz King, Jeets, Inferno, Tomb of the Shadow King - YET EVERY ONE OF THOSE PACKS IS IN MY TOP 10 BUYS!
I loathe G-Point and Dreaming Dark too BUT that doesn't stop me recommending Shavarath or IQ2 {even if they happen to not be in the Top 10 packs at the moment - They're not in the bottom 10 either!}.

On the other hand I adore the Restless Isles Slayer yet that Pack IS in my bottom 10 picks!!!



If Sands lost its Epic viability and GH/Necro IV kept theirs then clearly GH and Necro IV would be the better options BUT as ALL 3 will be Epic Viable as of the Next Update Sands wins due to the fact that it covers Lvls 10-13 whereas GH and Necro START at 13/14!!!

Yes you could buy the Landlubber Bundle {which gives 3 Barrel, Sentinels & Lordsmarch II} + The Necro Bundle and rely on Necro III/Lordsmarch II to get you to Gianthold but that's a HUGE outlay that would pretty much preclude any hope of getting GH or Vale without Buying Points!!!

Sands remains top for now, GH second, Necro IV 3rd, 3 Barrel and Vale let's say = 4th and VoN rounds off the top 6!
Though it might be better for a F2P to get the much cheaper IQ1 pack than Vale as with Sands, GH and Necro IV they have more than enough content to get them to 20 on a 1st Life and IQ1 is still pretty popular.
Alternatively...If you know you're going to get the Landlubber Bundle later on then swap in Necro II + IQ1 for 3 Barrel Cove.

FranOhmsford
08-19-2014, 12:16 PM
OK I've made some changes to the OP.

BUT

I'm going to stand by my views on Sands and Vale.

I did think about moving The Landlubber Bundle up to #1 as it provides literally everything a Newbie could want {low level - mid level - Epic Level!}.
And I thought about dropping Vale below VoN.

I also added in descriptions of Necro II and IQ as possible alternatives to 3 Barrel {if you're going to wait to get the Landlubber Bundle} or Vale {IQ is much cheaper and covers the 18-20 range too.}.

And I placed Reaver's Refuge in the "Do Not waste Favour TP on" List!

Loromir
08-19-2014, 01:12 PM
This is all well and good but I'm speaking comparatively and yes obviously there's people out there who like Threnal {I like Restless Isles but I know most can't stand em.}.

What I'm doing here though is giving Newbies my reasons why certain packs are the top dogs and others just aren't worth it unless you've got everything else.

Here's the full list {not counting Expansions}

1. Sands
2. Gianthold
3. Necro IV
4. 3BC
5. Vale
6. VoN
7. Necro II
8. IQ
9. Shavarath
10. Sentinels
11. Devil Assault / Chronoscope
12. Catacombs
13. Necro I
14. Delera's
15. Dreaming Dark
16. Harbinger of Madness
17. Tangleroot Gorge
18. Attack on Stormreach
19. Necro III
20. High Road
21. Shan To Kor
22. Sorrowdusk Isle
23. Restless Isles
24. Cannith Manufactory
25. Reign of Madness
26. Druid's Deep
27. Reaver's Refuge
28. Sharn Syndicate
29. Threnal
30. Cannith Challenges

I think that's all of them.

Now yes you can make a case that Threnal is a better buy than Sharn {Personally Sharn's cheap so an easier buy than Threnal}.
But can you really make a case for Threnal over ANY other pack in that list?



Necro I & III btw would be MUCH lower on the list if it wasn't for Silver Flame Pots - It doesn't matter how many people HATE those packs - They're higher on the list than they deserve to be for that reason alone!



EDIT: NEW: bottom place goes to Cannith Challenges for obvious reasons!


Gonna get flamed for this, but you have Druids Deep too low on the list. Loot is marginal at best, and the chain only average on the fun scale. XP is only average. The fact that it offers XP at the rather difficult to pass off 15-20 level along with epic versions also makes It worthwhile. There are no wonky mechanics, its not difficult to solo and I even see LFM's for it occasionally.

I would personally move it into the top 15...mainly because it is not overly expensive and gives both Heroic and Epic questing options.

I have the same opinion for the same reasons about High Road.

Manatha
08-19-2014, 03:22 PM
Gonna get flamed for this, but you have Druids Deep too low on the list. Loot is marginal at best, and the chain only average on the fun scale. XP is only average. The fact that it offers XP at the rather difficult to pass off 15-20 level along with epic versions also makes It worthwhile. There are no wonky mechanics, its not difficult to solo and I even see LFM's for it occasionally.

I would personally move it into the top 15...mainly because it is not overly expensive and gives both Heroic and Epic questing options.

I have the same opinion for the same reasons about High Road.

I actually....

Have only heaviny run it on one life, then ignored both packs almost completely. They're good quests, but for their range they're more difficult. Everyone wants to run HE (Heroic Elite) when they hit the quests for the first time and with those ones they can be a little too difficult if you're getting caught up with the people looking to only HE run.


My personal opinion on priority would be GH > Necro (Full>IV) > Vale > Sands = VoN, assuming you want to keep your option open for buying MotU. Sands = VoN even if Sands is better on paper, because I hate running around the desert, and VoN is right there by the teleport/airship
I would have to agree with this assessment. I think VoN is also more newbie friendly than Sands. I barely ran sands the first few lives if at all because I was scared off of the quests by the attitude people threw over having trouble finding the way to the quests.

Plenty of low end content, it gets skinny to the middle and top, and these will cover that for a first life toon, and they will give that first life toon a little to grind on the epic end for tokens.

The thing is, the OP is looking at giving that same newbie looking at packs and giving them a wishlist for Epic content - if you're fully new to the game it's probably better to TR to get the more solid stat points, and to get your +2 tome for hitting 1,750 Favor. You also unlock the 32-Points build for new non-Drow characters on that particular server.

3x TRs. It's not saying to go completionist, or start making your character a 9+ life behemoth. It's saying take time to enjoy/learn the game, max your favor out on what you get your first life do not stress getting the epic content until you feel confident you're ready for it, and make sure you have the Epic Destinies before you go for them or you won't be as survivable/useful in those quests at level.

If somehow you miss the favor at level for any quest, it's usually easy to tag a 'For Favor' group up and get the content done on elite.

As a side/off topic note: If you do manage to get the majority of the packs on his wish list, you probably won't manage to run all of them as a first life character - this does not mean you need to give up on getting that favor. I've been known to raid at level 'Elite if opener' groups just to open them on alts and flee (or stick with my TR duo depending). If I'm not really involved with something, I also grab the iconics just to run them to 'catch up' on the favor I missed because of their starting levels - so don't think that just because you're past where you can get full xp for any of these packs that you're beyond getting help farming the favor/running it.

EllisDee37
08-19-2014, 03:34 PM
According to DDOWiki:
Base Melee Alacrity requires Lvl 76 Crafting!
Flexible requires Lvl 130!!!

I'm guessing that's for BOUND too so no asking someone else to make it for you!It's easily made unbound for you. Just walk into either crafting hall and ask.

And again, I REPEAT, check the Weapon Recipes link in my signature. All those recipes are targeted to mid-30s crafting levels, which is absolutely achievable and worthwhile for a new player.

Stoner81
08-19-2014, 10:13 PM
It's easily made unbound for you. Just walk into either crafting hall and ask.

And again, I REPEAT, check the Weapon Recipes link in my signature. All those recipes are targeted to mid-30s crafting levels, which is absolutely achievable and worthwhile for a new player.

There is also the Smithy Alliance which is specifically aimed at new players to help gear them up when starting out :) and your weapon recipes were frankly a god send to me learning the game and working on my crafting levels.

If a new player ever came to me and asked me for a Melee Alacrity shard I wouldn't think twice about making it for them so it is certainly an option for new players.

Stoner81.

ReaperAlexEU
08-19-2014, 11:16 PM
OK I've made some changes to the OP.

BUT

I'm going to stand by my views on Sands and Vale.

I did think about moving The Landlubber Bundle up to #1 as it provides literally everything a Newbie could want {low level - mid level - Epic Level!}.
And I thought about dropping Vale below VoN.

I also added in descriptions of Necro II and IQ as possible alternatives to 3 Barrel {if you're going to wait to get the Landlubber Bundle} or Vale {IQ is much cheaper and covers the 18-20 range too.}.

And I placed Reaver's Refuge in the "Do Not waste Favour TP on" List!

ahh, destinies now stand out properly, thanks for the tweak :)

FranOhmsford
08-20-2014, 06:33 AM
Gonna get flamed for this, but you have Druids Deep too low on the list. Loot is marginal at best, and the chain only average on the fun scale. XP is only average. The fact that it offers XP at the rather difficult to pass off 15-20 level along with epic versions also makes It worthwhile. There are no wonky mechanics, its not difficult to solo and I even see LFM's for it occasionally.

I would personally move it into the top 15...mainly because it is not overly expensive and gives both Heroic and Epic questing options.

I have the same opinion for the same reasons about High Road.

Look at that List again and tell me you'd really move Druid's Deep and High Road as high as Top half?

IF you count Attack on Stormreach and Sentinels of Stormreach as part of the Landlubber Bundle then OK we can drop them.
IF you count Necro 1-III with Necro IV in the Necro Bundle those can be dropped too.

But even then High Road and Druid's Deep would only move up 5 places each.


High Road's not bad tbh BUT the Heroic Quests are Lvl 18s not 15s!
Druid's Deep is HORRIFIC for Newbies - Heck I can't run that chain Elite at Lvl NOW after 4 years! {Slight exaggeration for effect but you know what I'm getting at} Huge numbers of immune to almost everything Wisps and Vine Stalkers make the chain an absolute nightmare and there's absolutely no way I'd recommend it to a Newbie!
It's an advanced challenge chain like Reign of Madness - It was made to cater to the Hardcore Vets {And just like Reign it was almost instantly outdated thanks to the Weapons Upgrade to Random Loot!!!}.

I can't wait for those Scimis from Reign to get Paragon or Epic Weapon added to them!!!


With Necro III no longer necessary {so long as you have EVERY other Silver Flame Pack!} for Silver Flame Pots {which Ubers still expect you to have as early as Lvl 12!!!} I can see High Road moving ahead of Necro III in that list but really no higher than that - I'll update the list now.

FranOhmsford
08-20-2014, 06:52 AM
I actually....

Have only heaviny run it on one life, then ignored both packs almost completely. They're good quests, but for their range they're more difficult. Everyone wants to run HE (Heroic Elite) when they hit the quests for the first time and with those ones they can be a little too difficult if you're getting caught up with the people looking to only HE run.

This is the major problem with literally every quest pack above GH!

It was a problem with GH too before Sagas made groups more open!

The Heroic E-Star Saga is just too big - Contains too many different packs at different Level Ranges and most likely will only ever get run once as GH is so much quicker!


I would have to agree with this assessment. I think VoN is also more newbie friendly than Sands. I barely ran sands the first few lives if at all because I was scared off of the quests by the attitude people threw over having trouble finding the way to the quests.

Uh - I've haven't heard of any complaints since about 2012 about Newbies not being able to get to CoF {OoB yes BUT CoF the complaints are more from Vets wanting a Teleporter so THEY don't have to run to it!}.

And the Newbie hate comes more in Wiz King with the "Be able to solo a tower" stuff.
AND
VoN 3 and 4 certainly aren't immune to that sort of Hate either



The thing is, the OP is looking at giving that same newbie looking at packs and giving them a wishlist for Epic content - if you're fully new to the game it's probably better to TR to get the more solid stat points, and to get your +2 tome for hitting 1,750 Favor. You also unlock the 32-Points build for new non-Drow characters on that particular server.

3x TRs. It's not saying to go completionist, or start making your character a 9+ life behemoth. It's saying take time to enjoy/learn the game, max your favor out on what you get your first life do not stress getting the epic content until you feel confident you're ready for it, and make sure you have the Epic Destinies before you go for them or you won't be as survivable/useful in those quests at level.


I'm guessing you haven't seen all the complaints about wings meaning nothing anymore then?

Trying to explain why you haven't got EVERY destiny maxed, all Twists and are running Magister on your Fighter is much much more difficult on a second or 3rd life than on your first {and even on your first you'll run into players regularly who think you should already have Cocoon even though you clearly haven't even made it into the Primal Sphere yet!}.


Also - Unless you're BUYING your Hearts you're going to need to run at least SOME Epic Content on that 1st and 2nd Life!
And I don't know anyone who'd tell Newbies to make DA/Chronoscope their first buy!

With the Popularity of the E-H / E-N runs of Wiz King and VoN 3 these two packs are clearly way out in front - Sands beats VoN because it has so much else going for it:
A Massive Slayer Zone, 10 Quests rather than 4 {Raids are neither here nor there BUT VoN does win on this point!} and covering the much harder to get through for a Newbie Lvls 10-14 rather than 8-11.
Yes there's some crossover on this last point BUT Sands gets you to GH - VoN doesn't!!! {and no VoN 3 alone even with a dozen runs doesn't compensate for being able to run MULTIPLE Quests and getting far more favour for that same XP!}.


P.S. From the DDO Wiki -
Veteran Award is achievable for F2P players, since free content awards exceed 1,000 Total Favor, but there is not enough 'free favor' to earn 32-point builds.
From F2P Heroic Content incl. Cannith Challenges there's just under 1300 Favour available!
Heroic GH gives 216!
Sands gives 180 without the Raid itself {198 with the Raid!}.
Necro IV will get you to 1750 Favour on that 1st Life!

3 PACKS!!!

Loromir
08-20-2014, 07:43 AM
Look at that List again and tell me you'd really move Druid's Deep and High Road as high as Top half?

IF you count Attack on Stormreach and Sentinels of Stormreach as part of the Landlubber Bundle then OK we can drop them.
IF you count Necro 1-III with Necro IV in the Necro Bundle those can be dropped too.

But even then High Road and Druid's Deep would only move up 5 places each.


High Road's not bad tbh BUT the Heroic Quests are Lvl 18s not 15s!
Druid's Deep is HORRIFIC for Newbies - Heck I can't run that chain Elite at Lvl NOW after 4 years! {Slight exaggeration for effect but you know what I'm getting at} Huge numbers of immune to almost everything Wisps and Vine Stalkers make the chain an absolute nightmare and there's absolutely no way I'd recommend it to a Newbie!
It's an advanced challenge chain like Reign of Madness - It was made to cater to the Hardcore Vets {And just like Reign it was almost instantly outdated thanks to the Weapons Upgrade to Random Loot!!!}.

I can't wait for those Scimis from Reign to get Paragon or Epic Weapon added to them!!!


With Necro III no longer necessary {so long as you have EVERY other Silver Flame Pack!} for Silver Flame Pots {which Ubers still expect you to have as early as Lvl 12!!!} I can see High Road moving ahead of Necro III in that list but really no higher than that - I'll update the list now.

I freely admitted in my first sentence that I would get flamed. I just place higher value on those two packs than you. That's what makes this world so great. We all have different opinions. It would be boring otherwise.

FranOhmsford
08-20-2014, 08:09 AM
I freely admitted in my first sentence that I would get flamed. I just place higher value on those two packs than you. That's what makes this world so great. We all have different opinions. It would be boring otherwise.

Flamed? How exactly was what I said in any way Flaming you?

This thread isn't about subjectivity and you liking those packs is neither here nor there.

I even moved High Road up a place after reading your post!!!

Disagreeing with you is NOT Flaming you!

I simply asked you to "LOOK at the List again and tell me what makes High Road or Druid's Deep good enough to be moved into the Top Half!
And no Epic Viability alone isn't enough when these packs don't come close to the likes of Sands, GH, VoN, Sentinels and soon Necro IV for Epic {AND HEROIC} Viability!

Carnival's a lot lower now than it used to be - I used to place it in my Top 5 Packs to recommend when E-Snitch, E-Big Top and E-Partycrashers were the Entry Level Epics that literally anybody could get into!
But not any more - Not By A Long Shot!!!

Wanesa
08-20-2014, 08:39 AM
OK, so i look into it again. My advice for F2P player when he want to farm the favor is to buy packs with lowest TP/favor



The Reaver's Reach 17 H 250 96
The Devils of Shavarath 19-20 H 550 147
The Necropolis Part 3 11-12 H 350 93
The Catacombs 3-4 H 250 66
Sorrowdusk Isle 6-10 H 450 117
The Path of Inspiration 18 H 350 90
Ruins of Gianthold 13-14 24-25 H,E 950 240
The Vale of Twilight 16-17 H 850 207
The Ruins of Threnal 8-10 H 450 108
The Restless Isles 10-12 H 350 84
Necropolis Bundle 5-17 H 1495 357
The Necropolis Part 2 8-9 H 350 81
Demon Sands 10-12, 21-22 H,E 950 210
The Dreaming Dark 19-20 H 350 75
The Seal of Shan-To-Kor 3-5 H 250 48
The Necropolis Part 1 5-6 H 350 66
Tangleroot Gorge 3-7 H 550 99
Reign of Madness 17 H 450 78
The Vault of Night 8-10 21-22 H,E 750 126
Secrets of the Artificers 19-20 H,E 650 99
Delera's Tomb 5-11 H 850 129

http://ddowiki.com/page/Adventure_Packs

At level 12, F2P player should have 225-350 TP from favor. There is not much choices at this point, because packs are still expensive. But running another toon to level 12 brings another 225 TP ~ 550 TP which gives more options. Or make another two toons to level 12 and receive total 1000TP to buy GH (gives aditional 240 favor ~ 50TP per toon) or Vale (207 favor).

Or use different strategy. For 250TP to buy Catacombs and extend Favor income by addotional 66 favor, run another toon and receive next 250-300TP and buy STK which extend max favor by additional 48. And so on.

Vindraxx
08-20-2014, 09:50 AM
My recommendation to new players would be to try out the free to play quests and see if they enjoy the game. If they're still having fun and want to continue onward as content gets thin, I strongly encourage them to start by getting a $30 3-month VIP subscription. They then have access to ALL the non-expansion content and can try every Ebberon quest chain out for themselves. On top of that they will end up with 1500 TP from VIP alone and I think 3-months is a reasonable amount of time for even a casual player to make it from 1-20 on a first life. This will also give them 10 different character slots, additional races and classes to work with should they decide they want to try out some different builds.

By the end of those 3 months a new player will probably know if this is a game they would like to invest more time into and keep playing or if it's not for them. If they decide they don't like it, $30 is a pretty good investment for 3 months of entertainment and about half the price of a newly released title that won't have nearly half the amount of content that DDO has. If they do want to keep playing, then I would probably recommend they purchase the expansions and then make the decision whether to remain VIP or with their probably at least 4000 TP make all of the pack purchases they would like now having tested the content for themselves.

As is obvious by the debate in this thread, certain people prefer different things. I think it would be better to encourage new players to try for themselves and see what they like, but this list is still very useful. I personally prefer just staying VIP and having access to everything and for $10/month, that's very affordable to me given the amount of entertainment I get out of playing.

I really would caution encouraging new players to grind out favor for TP, I think this is one of the easiest ways to have new players get burnt out early and leave the game. I know financial situations for everyone are different, but I think more players are likely to stick with the game after subscribing for 3 months rather than grinding out the same F2P quests for favor starting out. My 2 cents anyway.

Qhualor
08-20-2014, 10:01 AM
My recommendation to new players would be to try out the free to play quests and see if they enjoy the game. If they're still having fun and want to continue onward as content gets thin, I strongly encourage them to start by getting a $30 3-month VIP subscription. They then have access to ALL the non-expansion content and can try every Ebberon quest chain out for themselves. On top of that they will end up with 1500 TP from VIP alone and I think 3-months is a reasonable amount of time for even a casual player to make it from 1-20 on a first life. This will also give them 10 different character slots, additional races and classes to work with should they decide they want to try out some different builds.

By the end of those 3 months a new player will probably know if this is a game they would like to invest more time into and keep playing or if it's not for them. If they decide they don't like it, $30 is a pretty good investment for 3 months of entertainment and about half the price of a newly released title that won't have nearly half the amount of content that DDO has. If they do want to keep playing, then I would probably recommend they purchase the expansions and then make the decision whether to remain VIP or with their probably at least 4000 TP make all of the pack purchases they would like now having tested the content for themselves.

As is obvious by the debate in this thread, certain people prefer different things. I think it would be better to encourage new players to try for themselves and see what they like, but this list is still very useful. I personally prefer just staying VIP and having access to everything and for $10/month, that's very affordable to me given the amount of entertainment I get out of playing.

I really would caution encouraging new players to grind out favor for TP, I think this is one of the easiest ways to have new players get burnt out early and leave the game. I know financial situations for everyone are different, but I think more players are likely to stick with the game after subscribing for 3 months rather than grinding out the same F2P quests for favor starting out. My 2 cents anyway.

This. Its hard to pay cash or spend your hard earned TP on something you never have experienced yet. Its all well and good to suggest which packs to buy to players, but they may end up not liking the pack and regretting spending their TP/cash. Doing a 3 month or at least a 1 month VIP is a good investment to have mostly full access to the game, reap some of the benefits and get a good feel of the game. After experiencing the packs, they can decide for themselves which packs they prefer to buy if they don't want to stay VIP.

FranOhmsford
08-20-2014, 10:42 AM
At level 12, F2P player should have 225-350 TP from favor. There is not much choices at this point, because packs are still expensive. But running another toon to level 12 brings another 225 TP ~ 550 TP which gives more options. Or make another two toons to level 12 and receive total 1000TP to buy GH (gives aditional 240 favor ~ 50TP per toon) or Vale (207 favor).

Or use different strategy. For 250TP to buy Catacombs and extend Favor income by addotional 66 favor, run another toon and receive next 250-300TP and buy STK which extend max favor by additional 48. And so on.

You're forgetting the 8 Server Favour runs.

That additional 66 Favour from catacombs if you're lucky nets you exactly 25 more TP {If you're between 435 and 499 it will get you to 500 and net you a bonus}.

STK gets you even less as if Cata got you to the next 100 then STK won't get you any more TP at all!


The standard advice from vets when asked in in-game chat or on these forums is to get Vale/Gianthold {the big expensive packs} first - to in fact save up for them.

I'm just re-ordering that advice for today's game.



As for Paying for VIP - This thread is for those who for one reason or another cannot {or will not} do that - It's great advice and easily the best way to get into the game BUT it doesn't make the advice in this thread Moot!

Vindraxx
08-20-2014, 11:09 AM
As for Paying for VIP - This thread is for those who for one reason or another cannot {or will not} do that - It's great advice and easily the best way to get into the game BUT it doesn't make the advice in this thread Moot!

Thanks for taking the time to write this guide. I posted my comment because if I was a new player reading your thread I would have assumed that this is the best/typical way for players to get into the game. I'm very much ok with the content of your post and think it's useful information and I agree almost universally with your points about worthwhile purchases. However, being on the new player forums, I think you should introduce the purpose of your guide in your original post as clearly it is not universally applicable to all new players.

I believe the best advice is to encourage players to first try as much content and get a feel for the game. More people will find enjoyment and stick with DDO if they are not constricted to a very limited amount of content. That being said, I would only offer up the suggestion to favor grind as a new player as an absolute last resort. Grinding favor on the same content over and over with characters you have no intention of progressing will turn off far more new players in the long run than asking them to put forth $15-$30 to experience (almost) all the content and see if this is the game for them (in my opinion anyway). Assuming the goal of your guide is to help new players remain playing the game, I'd encourage you to think about just the opening of your post such that from a new players perspective they come to find DDO as something enjoyable and less of a job of how they can make that next 25TP.

FranOhmsford
08-20-2014, 12:28 PM
Thanks for taking the time to write this guide. I posted my comment because if I was a new player reading your thread I would have assumed that this is the best/typical way for players to get into the game. I'm very much ok with the content of your post and think it's useful information and I agree almost universally with your points about worthwhile purchases. However, being on the new player forums, I think you should introduce the purpose of your guide in your original post as clearly it is not universally applicable to all new players.

I believe the best advice is to encourage players to first try as much content and get a feel for the game. More people will find enjoyment and stick with DDO if they are not constricted to a very limited amount of content. That being said, I would only offer up the suggestion to favor grind as a new player as an absolute last resort. Grinding favor on the same content over and over with characters you have no intention of progressing will turn off far more new players in the long run than asking them to put forth $15-$30 to experience (almost) all the content and see if this is the game for them (in my opinion anyway). Assuming the goal of your guide is to help new players remain playing the game, I'd encourage you to think about just the opening of your post such that from a new players perspective they come to find DDO as something enjoyable and less of a job of how they can make that next 25TP.

OP Updated.

Vindraxx
08-20-2014, 02:00 PM
Very direct haha... maybe a bit over the top. I'm not saying VIP is the end all be all, but thank you for the consideration and for your work on putting a guide together.

EllisDee37
08-20-2014, 02:59 PM
I'm just re-ordering that advice for today's game.It's still just your opinion. I disagree that your advice is better than conventional advice for today's game.

Feithlin
08-20-2014, 03:46 PM
I would give Devil Assault pack a much higher place because (from the less important to the more important): 1) the xp is not so bad (especially on epic) even if the quest is a bit long; 2) you can get the ingredients to craft GS items even without the vale (the cost is much lower than the vale); 3) you can quickly farm tokens to TR.

Since the focus is on F2P, I think it's important to give an easy option to TR, because TRing will give you more TP to spend. Another option would be through challenges, by collecting the daily tokens, but in this case, you need to prepare beforehand during your leveling.

EllisDee37
08-20-2014, 03:48 PM
Since the focus is on F2P, I think it's important to give an easy option to TR, because TRing will give you more TP to spend. Another option would be through challenges, by collecting the daily tokens, but in this case, you need to prepare beforehand during your leveling.While not the greatest way to farm tokens, anyone can do so via the F2P lords of dust chain.

FranOhmsford
08-20-2014, 05:15 PM
I would give Devil Assault pack a much higher place because (from the less important to the more important): 1) the xp is not so bad (especially on epic) even if the quest is a bit long; 2) you can get the ingredients to craft GS items even without the vale (the cost is much lower than the vale); 3) you can quickly farm tokens to TR.

Since the focus is on F2P, I think it's important to give an easy option to TR, because TRing will give you more TP to spend. Another option would be through challenges, by collecting the daily tokens, but in this case, you need to prepare beforehand during your leveling.


While not the greatest way to farm tokens, anyone can do so via the F2P lords of dust chain.

Added to what Ellis said:

VoN 3 and Wiz King with the popularity of Multiple Runs of these quests provide more than enough Frags so long as the player isn't in too much of a rush!

And frankly if said player is taking the Favour TP route then I doubt they're in so much of a rush that they absolutely must have DA.

Getting GS without Vale = Eurgh does ANYONE have that much Patience? {and don't you have to have the Twelve Favour, Pieces of Pie and access to Meridia anyway?}.

The XP on Epic is so so - The XP on Heroic is...Well who on Eberron runs DA at Level on Heroic?

Manatha
08-20-2014, 10:32 PM
This is the major problem with literally every quest pack above GH!

It was a problem with GH too before Sagas made groups more open!

The Heroic E-Star Saga is just too big - Contains too many different packs at different Level Ranges and most likely will only ever get run once as GH is so much quicker!



Uh - I've haven't heard of any complaints since about 2012 about Newbies not being able to get to CoF {OoB yes BUT CoF the complaints are more from Vets wanting a Teleporter so THEY don't have to run to it!}.

And the Newbie hate comes more in Wiz King with the "Be able to solo a tower" stuff.
AND
VoN 3 and 4 certainly aren't immune to that sort of Hate either

I still regularly get lost in the explorer, and trust me the hate for anyone that can't make it after the main group gets there is still there.



I'm guessing you haven't seen all the complaints about wings meaning nothing anymore then?

Trying to explain why you haven't got EVERY destiny maxed, all Twists and are running Magister on your Fighter is much much more difficult on a second or 3rd life than on your first {and even on your first you'll run into players regularly who think you should already have Cocoon even though you clearly haven't even made it into the Primal Sphere yet!}.

The wings really never meant much before anyway.... It had always meant 'congrats, you can grind to 20 and get tokens!' ... And that you had a strict enough leveling guide as a TR to take advantage of the existing quests with ransack without having that penalty get in your way. I actually have never had the issue with explaining EDs and which I have running. Especially in 'running for tokens' groups.

You're also assuming a first lifer that doesnt yet HAVE that many packs is going to have EDs to begin with. I'm speaking to the full out F2P, can't/won't invest cash into the game at this time crowd. Those individuals will not have the EDs to pick anyway.



Also - Unless you're BUYING your Hearts you're going to need to run at least SOME Epic Content on that 1st and 2nd Life!
And I don't know anyone who'd tell Newbies to make DA/Chronoscope their first buy!
I'll quote where I think you're skewed on thinking I said to get those on the top of the list:

10. Sentinels
11. Devil Assault / Chronoscope
I hesitate to keep DA or Chrono up in there - but, it's what? Two quest pack, yes you can get a lot of XP, but without EDs their value is a little less - HOWEVER, DA is one of the best ways to get tokens to TR. The reason I say 'to TR' is because once you TR all that favor gets reset, and it allows you to grind up new favor to buy more packs. Until you have EDs it's not worth worrying about speed leveling in the epics.
You put chrono higher on the list than I was thinking it should be. I hesitate to keep it up in the 11th slot and would probably put Delora's or something else you don't set value in higher than it.



With the Popularity of the E-H / E-N runs of Wiz King and VoN 3 these two packs are clearly way out in front - Sands beats VoN because it has so much else going for it:
A Massive Slayer Zone, 10 Quests rather than 4 {Raids are neither here nor there BUT VoN does win on this point!} and covering the much harder to get through for a Newbie Lvls 10-14 rather than 8-11.
Yes there's some crossover on this last point BUT Sands gets you to GH - VoN doesn't!!! {and no VoN 3 alone even with a dozen runs doesn't compensate for being able to run MULTIPLE Quests and getting far more favour for that same XP!}.
Again, I've seen more hatred from people over not knowing quest/explorer in sands than VoN - I'm not disputing where they fall in levels. Also, because you haven't run across it recently, doesnt mean I haven't seen it - and been on the recieving end of the hate over not knowing my way well.

I personally used the lordsmarch 1 chain (Level 12 base) to get into the GH range. First life XP falls like candy, and sitting on levels early helps bridge some of the skinnier xp gaps.



P.S. From the DDO Wiki -
From F2P Heroic Content incl. Cannith Challenges there's just under 1300 Favour available!
Heroic GH gives 216!
Sands gives 180 without the Raid itself {198 with the Raid!}.
Necro IV will get you to 1750 Favour on that 1st Life!

3 PACKS!!!
Again, I am going to say what I have said before - in your initial post please put the total favor available with the total TP each pack costs (it would be very helpful to split the total for Epic and Heroic levels). The reason I'm asking you to add this to your op is because it will help anyone that's looking at your thread and trying to use it as a guide. Yes they can go to the wiki to find out as well, but having all the information on site is much more helpful.

I've given the reasons I dislike the order for some of your picks on quests - and didnt really care for the fact you decided to ignore/not include certain packs in your original OP.

Having everything in one place is a very helpful tool for anyone that is just getting into the game.

I think - or would like to - that everyone arguing the point and detailing why they think other things should be higher/lower are looking to help you refine the ideas a bit more.

I personally dread coyle too - but I put that pack a bit higher in value because of the TS from cloak and trinket. But that's a personal preference - not something I expect others to go with - but I do know I run it more than some of the other higher level packs you have much higher on the list.

FranOhmsford
08-21-2014, 09:08 AM
I still regularly get lost in the explorer, and trust me the hate for anyone that can't make it after the main group gets there is still there.

That's probably more to do with actually wanting to start the quest than anything else - And Unfortunately I've been sat at OoB typing in directions while people get lost/Fall into the Crevasse too often myself.
CoF It's actually nowhere near as bad - Don't ask me why!


The wings really never meant much before anyway.... It had always meant 'congrats, you can grind to 20 and get tokens!' ... And that you had a strict enough leveling guide as a TR to take advantage of the existing quests with ransack without having that penalty get in your way. I actually have never had the issue with explaining EDs and which I have running. Especially in 'running for tokens' groups.

The Wings/Being TRd mean a lot more than certain vets like to think - It's become "Cool" to put them down over the years as more and more people have earned them BUT there's still a heck of a lot of people out there who think Wings means "Maxed Out Character in Epics" {and some who think that in heroics too - Though the ED issue is what I was talking about here:

It's much much harder explaining away why you haven't got all EDs maxed on multi-life characters than on a 1st Life character where all but the most Elitist are willing to accept that you're still working your way through them!


You're also assuming a first lifer that doesnt yet HAVE that many packs is going to have EDs to begin with. I'm speaking to the full out F2P, can't/won't invest cash into the game at this time crowd. Those individuals will not have the EDs to pick anyway.

EDs are on the list - In fact they're specifically bolded now and mentioned a number of times!

I have multiple characters that I TRd upon hitting 20 without EDs - I've had to explain on multiple occasions why they're not "Maxed Out with all Twists"

I feel it's now far better for a 1st Lifer to stay at 20 and get EDs ASAP {even going so far as to roll up new alts to Favour Farm!} than to TR!



I'll quote where I think you're skewed on thinking I said to get those on the top of the list:

You put chrono higher on the list than I was thinking it should be. I hesitate to keep it up in the 11th slot and would probably put Delora's or something else you don't set value in higher than it.

You stated to TR ASAP upon hitting 20 and others have talked about DA's Token Farm - I've put DA higher than it would otherwise deserve simply because of that Token Farm {And the Fact that it's Cheap!}.


I've given the reasons I dislike the order for some of your picks on quests - and didnt really care for the fact you decided to ignore/not include certain packs in your original OP.

I had to ignore the majority of Packs as otherwise I'd have had to list and explain them all!

I picked out the top 5 or 6 packs - which lets face it is all the standard favour farmer can afford on their 1st life without devoting their life to favour farming!

I noted the "Do Not Buys".

And left the rest in the middle thinking that people could make their own minds up about which order to get them in {probably dependant on a number of things:
1) Is it on Sale
2) Am I in the Level Range for Said Pack
3) Is it a highly recommended pack generally {sort of like Tangleroot's commonly recommended for the Visor DESPITE being otherwise a very weak pack to buy!}.
4) Do I need more Silver Flame/Coin Lords/House K/Yugo Favour {You can get all the Argo Favour from GH and the rest of the Patrons are neither here nor there!}
5) Size to cost ratio.
etc.
etc.


Having everything in one place is a very helpful tool for anyone that is just getting into the game.

Yes but that's not what this thread was originally for - It is meant as a quick guide NOT an exhaustive guide!


I think - or would like to - that everyone arguing the point and detailing why they think other things should be higher/lower are looking to help you refine the ideas a bit more.

There's been a number of blatant and more refined Personal Attacks in this thread so I'm going to respectfully disagree.


I personally dread coyle too - but I put that pack a bit higher in value because of the TS from cloak and trinket. But that's a personal preference - not something I expect others to go with - but I do know I run it more than some of the other higher level packs you have much higher on the list.

True Seeing is nice and all.
And frankly Threnal has a lot of nice loot - It's a pretty good mid level Loot Pack for Hoarders.

BUT It's probably the most likely of any pack in this game to put off a newbie for good if they've just used hard earned Favour TP on it!!!

I run it often enough myself {usually Way Over-Levelled and Solo!!} and it's hard to be totally objective about a pack I have so many subjective issues with BUT:
It's in a Lvl Range where it's up against 2 of the Strongest Packs in the Game: VoN and Necro II.
It's also up against: Sorrowdusk which is a far more often pugged pack {though this can also be a pain to pug}
and: Sentinels and Red Fens which both have Epic Viability {Sentinels also has the Saga going for it now!}.

Then you've got the fact that Favour Farmers will want Packs in ALL Level Ranges and Threnal drops even further down the list!

There was a point prior to MotU where if you asked in In-Game chat which pack to buy next and you listed just 4 you hadn't already bought and Restless Isles and Threnal would be instantly put down by literally everyone who bothered to answer!!! {Even IF they weren't on that list and you HAD already bought them People would have a go at them!}.

I like Restless Isles particularly for the Slayer Zone so it's a bit higher than otherwise BUT still way down the list!!!

MotU complicates things because so much of the later Updates have been Multiple Buys {i.e. Expansions where you get the good and the bad in the same buy!}.

Wheloon would be absolute BOTTOM of the list IF it didn't come with Stormhorns!
Druid's Deep is literally AWFUL! But does have both Heroic and Epic Viability which places it slightly ahead of Threnal.


I'll say again:
EVERY pack has at least one thing going for it!
EVERY pack will have at least one fan!
BUT on a list there's always going to be one pack right at the bottom!

Cannith Challenges have taken Threnal's place at the bottom of my list for the rather obvious reason that you can play them completely Free!
BUT apart from Sharn Syndicate literally every other pack in the game has more going for it than Threnal!!!

Yes: Even Restless Isles!

Loromir
08-21-2014, 09:17 AM
.Well who on Eberron runs DA at Level on Heroic?

I do...at least on elite.

FranOhmsford
08-21-2014, 10:36 AM
I do...at least on elite.

Uh....Why would you run Heroic Elite DA when ENorm is worth so much more?

Is it that hard to get an EE run going?

Loromir
08-21-2014, 10:40 AM
Uh....Why would you run Heroic Elite DA when ENorm is worth so much more?

Is it that hard to get an EE run going?


I run Heroic Elite at lvl 18. Last time I checked, you can't get int Epic Norm at lvl 18.


You question was:

"Well who on Eberron runs DA at Level on Heroic?"


I run it on Epic Elite at level also.

Manatha
08-21-2014, 11:41 AM
That's probably more to do with actually wanting to start the quest than anything else - And Unfortunately I've been sat at OoB typing in directions while people get lost/Fall into the Crevasse too often myself.
CoF It's actually nowhere near as bad - Don't ask me why!

The Wings/Being TRd mean a lot more than certain vets like to think - It's become "Cool" to put them down over the years as more and more people have earned them
I will explain something as to 'putting down the wings' being cool: It has nothing to do with it being 'cool'. I simply have never placed an extreme value on the TR wings, I didnt in 2009 when I did my first TR, and I don't now. I didnt place a huge value on the wings once I realized; TRing is grind, it's someone running old content they already cleared with fewer stats and worse gear, with more gear and more stats, but needing more experience to hit the plateaus to reach other old content.

To give you a little insight as to why: I leveled a beastmaster in FFXI before they patched and made them far easier and changed charm mechanics. When I start to down level and can lose 5-6 ranks on top of losing xp for the quest itself... and can't repeat the same one 10x, then I'll start to think it's a difficult thing.

When you see me advising 'TRing right off once you've gotten all the heroics you can handle for favor' it's because I know if you're actually doing full F2P and not spending into it, it's going to be one hell of a grind. Just like my beastmaster was back in 2002. The difference is, for that particular game/class I had to know exactly what to charm, what was weak/strong against what other monsters, what elements they were weak against, what detected by sound/sight, and what was aggressive.

I did not need to know the majority of that here, I just had to know 'get gear, keep gear updated... get high crit profile when possible.... and only farm high xp quests.' TRing has always been, and will always be in my eyes, a time sink that helps make a character better outside of raiding. It's a fun time sink, but you eventually get there regardless of using potions or not. There are not many complicated quests I can think of in this game other than the abbot raid and a handful of others (Noting that I have not yet done some of the top end stuff with thunderholm yet.)


BUT there's still a heck of a lot of people out there who think Wings means "Maxed Out Character in Epics" {and some who think that in heroics too - Though the ED issue is what I was talking about here:

It's much much harder explaining away why you haven't got all EDs maxed on multi-life characters than on a 1st Life character where all but the most Elitist are willing to accept that you're still working your way through them!

EDs are on the list - In fact they're specifically bolded now and mentioned a number of times!

I have multiple characters that I TRd upon hitting 20 without EDs - I've had to explain on multiple occasions why they're not "Maxed Out with all Twists"

I feel it's now far better for a 1st Lifer to stay at 20 and get EDs ASAP {even going so far as to roll up new alts to Favour Farm!} than to TR!
Most of those elitists are going to remove a first lifer anyway as soon as they realize what you are - they're also not worth running with imo.



You stated to TR ASAP upon hitting 20 and others have talked about DA's Token Farm - I've put DA higher than it would otherwise deserve simply because of that Token Farm {And the Fact that it's Cheap!}.
Right, but if you read what I said, I also stated it was one I hesitate on it being high on the list, even as just #11 because of how little goes with it. It's just as easy to EN/EH farm the spinner's chain, and you have more of a chance of getting your level 20 gear/upgrades off the spinner's chain if you're looking to epic out some loot through the old system.




I had to ignore the majority of Packs as otherwise I'd have had to list and explain them all!

I picked out the top 5 or 6 packs - which lets face it is all the standard favour farmer can afford on their 1st life without devoting their life to favour farming!

I noted the "Do Not Buys".

And left the rest in the middle thinking that people could make their own minds up about which order to get them in {probably dependant on a number of things:
1) Is it on Sale
2) Am I in the Level Range for Said Pack
3) Is it a highly recommended pack generally {sort of like Tangleroot's commonly recommended for the Visor DESPITE being otherwise a very weak pack to buy!}.
4) Do I need more Silver Flame/Coin Lords/House K/Yugo Favour {You can get all the Argo Favour from GH and the rest of the Patrons are neither here nor there!}
5) Size to cost ratio.
etc.
etc.

Yes but that's not what this thread was originally for - It is meant as a quick guide NOT an exhaustive guide!

There's been a number of blatant and more refined Personal Attacks in this thread so I'm going to respectfully disagree.
I've avoided them and been sticking to pointing out where I think some of the packs may be more important (or less), and what I've seen working through my full F2P account.




True Seeing is nice and all.
And frankly Threnal has a lot of nice loot - It's a pretty good mid level Loot Pack for Hoarders.

BUT It's probably the most likely of any pack in this game to put off a newbie for good if they've just used hard earned Favour TP on it!!!

I run it often enough myself {usually Way Over-Levelled and Solo!!} and it's hard to be totally objective about a pack I have so many subjective issues with BUT:
It's in a Lvl Range where it's up against 2 of the Strongest Packs in the Game: VoN and Necro II.
It's also up against: Sorrowdusk which is a far more often pugged pack {though this can also be a pain to pug}
and: Sentinels and Red Fens which both have Epic Viability {Sentinels also has the Saga going for it now!}.
Agreed on that - I just don't put it below some of the higher level quests you put it below. I would 100% get VoN or Necro first. All of the Necros - especially necro 4 right now since they will be turning that epic soon.


Then you've got the fact that Favour Farmers will want Packs in ALL Level Ranges and Threnal drops even further down the list!

There was a point prior to MotU where if you asked in In-Game chat which pack to buy next and you listed just 4 you hadn't already bought and Restless Isles and Threnal would be instantly put down by literally everyone who bothered to answer!!! {Even IF they weren't on that list and you HAD already bought them People would have a go at them!}.

I like Restless Isles particularly for the Slayer Zone so it's a bit higher than otherwise BUT still way down the list!!!
I very rarely step into restless isle by the time I'm done with other F2P content and hit Thernal most of the time.


MotU complicates things because so much of the later Updates have been Multiple Buys {i.e. Expansions where you get the good and the bad in the same buy!}.

Wheloon would be absolute BOTTOM of the list IF it didn't come with Stormhorns!
Druid's Deep is literally AWFUL! But does have both Heroic and Epic Viability which places it slightly ahead of Threnal.
Druid's Deep is another I rarely touch. Exp is horrible, Fights are ******** for first life.



I'll say again:
EVERY pack has at least one thing going for it!
EVERY pack will have at least one fan!
BUT on a list there's always going to be one pack right at the bottom!

Cannith Challenges have taken Threnal's place at the bottom of my list for the rather obvious reason that you can play them completely Free!
BUT apart from Sharn Syndicate literally every other pack in the game has more going for it than Threnal!!!

Yes: Even Restless Isles!

Cannith and the Druid's challenges both. You have to login daily but getting those tokens is a must if you're going to favor farm at all and go for everything free.

FranOhmsford
08-21-2014, 03:42 PM
I will explain something as to 'putting down the wings' being cool: It has nothing to do with it being 'cool'. I simply have never placed an extreme value on the TR wings, I didnt in 2009 when I did my first TR, and I don't now. I didnt place a huge value on the wings once I realized; TRing is grind, it's someone running old content they already cleared with fewer stats and worse gear, with more gear and more stats, but needing more experience to hit the plateaus to reach other old content.

It's not that people aren't putting an Extreme value on the wings that's the issue here BUT that People do put "some" Value on them - Whether that's a good or bad thing is Moot to this thread BUT it's the way people are!


To give you a little insight as to why: I leveled a beastmaster in FFXI before they patched and made them far easier and changed charm mechanics. When I start to down level and can lose 5-6 ranks on top of losing xp for the quest itself... and can't repeat the same one 10x, then I'll start to think it's a difficult thing.

The above quote is pretty much exactly what I've been talking about: Putting down the achievements of "Lesser Players" and TRing even once IS an Achievement in this game for anyone who doesn't straight up Buy it!

Maybe not much of an achievement but an achievement none the less!

Despite whether it's easier now than it was in the past!


When you see me advising 'TRing right off once you've gotten all the heroics you can handle for favor' it's because I know if you're actually doing full F2P and not spending into it, it's going to be one hell of a grind. Just like my beastmaster was back in 2002. The difference is, for that particular game/class I had to know exactly what to charm, what was weak/strong against what other monsters, what elements they were weak against, what detected by sound/sight, and what was aggressive.

I did not need to know the majority of that here, I just had to know 'get gear, keep gear updated... get high crit profile when possible.... and only farm high xp quests.' TRing has always been, and will always be in my eyes, a time sink that helps make a character better outside of raiding. It's a fun time sink, but you eventually get there regardless of using potions or not. There are not many complicated quests I can think of in this game other than the abbot raid and a handful of others (Noting that I have not yet done some of the top end stuff with thunderholm yet.)

Wow - The above paints you in a very different light than the one you were looking for.

Sounds like you only play None Casters here?

And farming high xp quests is something I will NEVER do!

There are plenty of "complicated" quests in this game - maybe not to you but it sounds like you're a long time computer gamer anyway!

Also - Since when is "Farming High XP quests" something that should be anywhere near advice for those looking to earn TP through Favour?
You get exactly NO Favour for your 2nd-11th run of VoN 3, Shadow Crypt and Wiz King if you did the 1st run on Elite {which is highly likely in today's game!}.
And you could have spent that time actually running other quests that you CAN get Favour off!


Most of those elitists are going to remove a first lifer anyway as soon as they realize what you are - they're also not worth running with imo.

Very few of the players who think you should have Cocoon no matter what are actual Elitists - It has become an almost gamewide obsession!
And I got seriously fed up of having to explain 4 or 5 times to the same person that I was still in the Martial Sphere on Lieuk when he was Lvl 28 {You can get exactly TWO EDs done on the way from Lvl 21-28!}.
Even when I got into the Primal Sphere I still had to run him through Shiradi just to get into Primal Avatar!}.
And Lieuk was {still is actually as I E-TRd him rather than H-TRing him} 1st Life!
Can you imagine the explaining you have to do when that character is a 2nd or 3rd Lifer?

They can't remove you when you're the leader and I haven't seen a 1st lifer removed from a party just for being 1st life EVER! {Maybe that's because I stick well clear of the really toxic zergers!}. - I do however well recall the LFMs reading TRs only {which even on my TRs I didn't join} BUT if a 1st Lifer joined those LFMs then they weren't reading the LFM in the first place!}.

Things aren't as bad as you're making out that way BUT they're also not as good as you're making out in other ways.


Right, but if you read what I said, I also stated it was one I hesitate on it being high on the list, even as just #11 because of how little goes with it. It's just as easy to EN/EH farm the spinner's chain, and you have more of a chance of getting your level 20 gear/upgrades off the spinner's chain if you're looking to epic out some loot through the old system.

It seems we got our wires crossed about DA - Either way it's not a Mandatory pack and neither is it a Bad pack to get so somewhere in the upper middle seems fine to me.


Agreed on that - I just don't put it below some of the higher level quests you put it below. I would 100% get VoN or Necro first. All of the Necros - especially necro 4 right now since they will be turning that epic soon.

I very rarely step into restless isle by the time I'm done with other F2P content and hit Thernal most of the time.

Druid's Deep is another I rarely touch. Exp is horrible, Fights are ******** for first life.

You've got to remember that NONE of those packs are good buys!

You'd put Threnal slightly higher than I - Fine but that's not exactly a recommendation!


Cannith and the Druid's challenges both. You have to login daily but getting those tokens is a must if you're going to favor farm at all and go for everything free.

If I remember correctly the E-Star challenges are part of the MotU expansion so I left them off my packs list - I will say that they're far better made than the Cannith Challenges!

EllisDee37
08-21-2014, 07:43 PM
If I remember correctly the E-Star challenges are part of the MotU expansion so I left them off my packs list - I will say that they're far better made than the Cannith Challenges!Only the standard edition. Eveningstar challenges do not come with the base edition. (And the cannith challenges are way better designed.)

In other words, the eveningstar challenges are exactly as related to MotU purchases as carnival, lordsmarch, IQ and DD are.

EDIT: That reminds me, the landlubber bundle is actually a bad deal for anyone who will at some point purchase the MotU standard edition.

Manatha
08-22-2014, 01:27 AM
The above quote is pretty much exactly what I've been talking about: Putting down the achievements of "Lesser Players" and TRing even once IS an Achievement in this game for anyone who doesn't straight up Buy it!
It is still an achievement, but it doesn't mean they will know the entire game inside and out - it's never been that TRing means you automatically can solo all EE content. The people that assume wings = having everything maxed are being silly which is my point. It's a time investment, it does not mean they are the end all be all source.

The only thing that did was knock the pedestal for 'these guys will know it all!' out early on and had me able to assess the group with them better so I could adjust how fast my groups went through a dungeon rather than making the new player mistake of thinking they'll know the entire quest in and out, wipe out all creatures with a wave of their hand and keep us all alive without issue (or give us all soulstone backpack rides to the end).

To give you a comparison in a sense: the BST back then were essentially the guys that walk into an EE dungeon at level and soloed it. This was done by charming things and making them fight for the beastmaster, similar to the bard's charm, but it stuck much longer and was one target instead of many. This is why we knew so much about the mob types and what to/not to charm/use against certain creatures. We had to know, or we died quick as a charm turned around to chew our faces off, or got eaten by what we wanted to kill before we could charm something else. Back when I played, Every Single One of the Beastmasters was like this. Reason? No One accepted a bst into party unless it was specific raids because when we charmed things, if it was counted as over the level of the party, it destroyed the party's exp. Not every TR is going to be thrown into an EE and expected to solo it. As a new player, the first TRs I ran across were talked about like that was what all of them could do without breaking a sweat. It changed what that particular achievement was, not what it meant. Is that a little more clear?

Not every TR is going to walk into an EE dungeon and solo it without issue - only a handful build to do that. It doesnt mean the TRs are less of an achievement, it just means that the environment they're in does not demand it of them, and there is not a harsh penalty to go with failing to strive to beat the EE dungeons. That is all it means.

Now, to my original point with the favor grind off TRing, if the new player is comfortable TRing, and has run out of content, or hit a brick wall where they aren't doing the damage etc they think they should - from build or just lack of gear. If they are having issues getting the gear etc they need/want to continue on without doing an unreasonable time sink, they may want to TR to refresh their ability to gain favor on that character, and make the character stronger. This will help them get the favor for their packs. This doesn't mean they are not going to want to do the initial few hundred TP grind on other servers.

I never said to TR ASAP, so I clarified for you here, to my original post you said:


You stated to TR ASAP upon hitting 20 and others have talked about DA's Token Farm - I've put DA higher than it would otherwise deserve simply because of that Token Farm {And the Fact that it's Cheap!}.

No... I didn't. I said:


Plenty of low end content, it gets skinny to the middle and top, and these will cover that for a first life toon, and they will give that first life toon a little to grind on the epic end for tokens.

The thing is, the OP is looking at giving that same newbie looking at packs and giving them a wishlist for Epic content - if you're fully new to the game it's probably better to TR to get the more solid stat points, and to get your +2 tome for hitting 1,750 Favor. You also unlock the 32-Points build for new non-Drow characters on that particular server.

None of these things make the TR less than it was back in 2009, none of these things takes away from the time you have to have invested in a TR that isn't being stoned every life. It only means that expecting a TR to have an insane uber solo build is unrealistic.

It has always been build/gear/player behind the character that made some of the more insane soloing feats possible. I'm still not sure why you brought up the idea that the wings mean less because I said that TRing is an option to use as part of the favor grind. If someone is TRing as part of the favor grind they are pretty well invested in the game at that point.

Being a TR doesn't mean they will have all the more complicated builds down and mastered, it doesn't mean they will be soloing all the EE content, and it doesn't mean they're going to be more solid than a skilled than a new player that understands the mechanics and has gotten the right gear by level 20. I'm sorry if you don't see it that way, but it doesn't justify you attacking the idea of new players TRing or using it as a tool to get more favor when they're ready. Even now when a new player gets their first TR, or their third, or their completionist, it is an achievement, but it is not the same achievement as, nor is it striving to be the guy that solos EE. When I first started this game I ran into people that initially made it sound like a TR was the same as the guy that solos EE content.

Your comment about the wings meaning less to me really comes across as discouraging new players from TRing at all. Because it makes the wings mean 'less' until after you've done a massive grind on EDs and maxed all of them (which, by the way, you probably won't be able to do without a hell of a lot of farming as you would end up needing 24 million xp or so to max all the EDs in all the spheres so that you can TR into a new life with everything maxed and all the twists).

I do advise using the TR to gain more favor if a F2P player doesn't have the EDs, or lacks the content to level in epics because it will be very hard for them to quest up higher for favor without them. That does not mean TR asap.... it means it is something for a new player without EDs to consider as they most likely will have the 32pt unlocked, will be going up to a 34pt build and will have a +2 tome used for their next life. It is also something for them to consider once they've run out of quests they can easily get into for favor and exp.

Edit: I never said that they would not need to run any epic content to TR either. I discourage buying the hearts from the store as they can easily be earned for free in game, from doing quests that will 1. Grant more favor, and 2. Will give you the gear needed for when you do decide to do more in the epic levels if you don't on first life.

I personally have been questioned more for not having an ED beyond 20 as a first life character than I have been for being in the wrong ED as a TR



Wow - The above paints you in a very different light than the one you were looking for.

Sounds like you only play None Casters here?
Two mages, a FVS, two clerics, did all three of my druid lives (caster type with evasion from a light rogue splash), have another druid caster alt... and an assortment of other various level casters and melee. I main a character that primarily focuses on traps - while always keeping my UMD maxed to be able to use various caster scrolls.

You're reading into things too much and making quite a few assumptions. I haven't yet made a comment about any of your characters, play style, or discounted your experience. I can edit that to also say high spell power/spell crit, spell pen etc as well if you would like? The point remains the same. Up to date/correct gear = Stronger character.


And farming high xp quests is something I will NEVER do!

There are plenty of "complicated" quests in this game - maybe not to you but it sounds like you're a long time computer gamer anyway!

Also - Since when is "Farming High XP quests" something that should be anywhere near advice for those looking to earn TP through Favour?
You get exactly NO Favour for your 2nd-11th run of VoN 3, Shadow Crypt and Wiz King if you did the 1st run on Elite {which is highly likely in today's game!}.
And you could have spent that time actually running other quests that you CAN get Favour off!

Sorry, you derailed me with the commentary about the TRs, it has been my experience when dealing with many TRs that are very deep into the completionist grind - who by the way likely have all the packs anyway or are vip - have also been the ones to grind xp. That in no way is something I'd ever suggest for a new player.

My current project/last 6 lives on my main have been making it a point to do every quest in the game I can by level 20 - I end up with a solid 3000 favor by the end, usually a bit more. However, I know a large number of TRs that I've run across that will run certain quests to death for the xp farm. VoN, Necro 1, 2 and 3 mid flags to name a few. I refuse to exp grind unless I'm looking for a specific piece of gear. I get bored with the farms too fast and it puts me above level to get the xp and favor from other quests at level.

I still usually end up missing some of the 17-19 quests - like the second madness chain (which gives two trinkets that are on my 'nice to have' list, but consistently missing it along with reaver's refuge makes it a buy I won't do on my F2P account for a long time.) I don't think my duo has touched cannith or dreaming dark in the last 4 lives and I was planning on making sure we did this time.

The true hard quests puzzle wise I can think of right off are out in reaver's, and the mirroring one fred is trapped in (Especially if you're like me and refuse to use solvers unless it's a last resort). Crucible if you don't know the maze/end up with no one using the solver to get through quickly can be a pain, same with center for necro 2 if you're not using one of the set paths off the wiki. That is ignoring the raids and some of the harder puzzles/tasks in those.



Very few of the players who think you should have Cocoon no matter what are actual Elitists - It has become an almost gamewide obsession!
And I got seriously fed up of having to explain 4 or 5 times to the same person that I was still in the Martial Sphere on Lieuk when he was Lvl 28 {You can get exactly TWO EDs done on the way from Lvl 21-28!}.
Even when I got into the Primal Sphere I still had to run him through Shiradi just to get into Primal Avatar!}.
And Lieuk was {still is actually as I E-TRd him rather than H-TRing him} 1st Life!
Can you imagine the explaining you have to do when that character is a 2nd or 3rd Lifer?
I have, and probably will again. But it hasn't been that hard explaining 'Hey, this character has never done epic levels'. Usually they stop asking after the first time. Sounds like you got someone particularly dense about it. I thankfully haven't run into that issue yet, but, I'm not saying it doesn't happen either.


They can't remove you when you're the leader and I haven't seen a 1st lifer removed from a party just for being 1st life EVER! {Maybe that's because I stick well clear of the really toxic zergers!}. - I do however well recall the LFMs reading TRs only {which even on my TRs I didn't join} BUT if a 1st Lifer joined those LFMs then they weren't reading the LFM in the first place!}.

Things aren't as bad as you're making out that way BUT they're also not as good as you're making out in other ways.
I generally run my own groups anymore, so it's very hard to remove me from a group as well.

I have been removed on my bard pugging (first lifer, no wings from EDR, full caster spend as an SS with focused CC - in the maxed out fatesinger ED because it was my highest and helped give me even more cc) because I didn't kill enough. Apparently making everything stand still and not letting anyone dying through my heals and CC makes me a horrible player. It was not a 'zerg' group or a byoh group. We had no cleric and I was the only one keeping the full group alive. They had pointedly asked me if I was able to heal at the start as well.

Just because you have not had the issue, does not mean others haven't. Just as with me not having run across the issues with having to explain more than once why my 3rd life cleric doesn't have anything leveled into her EDs since I've essentially gotten her to 20 and turned her right back around to TR each time. I have not had issues with my TR not having the EDs leveled, but that does not mean some people haven't had the issue.

As to grinding EDs on first life, once you have your epic destinies I do suggest sticking at the top long enough to get them leveled a little. To be 100% clear, once my little rogue got her EDs, I sat doing nothing but unlocking new ED spheres - I didn't bother to max them out, I just did them enough to unlock the other EDs before I eventually hit the wall from lack of gear/lack of killing power that drove me to do my initial TR on her. Generally, my EDs were around level 2 or 3 by the time I TRed that character because I didn't feel I was geared/stat heavy enough to run her through EEs, and I had done all the EH content I could at that time.

However, if you don't have Epic Destinies, it's very hard to do much in the epic levels beyond certain older packs, and may be better to TR.

If you do have the EDs, I would personally avoid doing an EDR until ready to TR, because it puts the same wings on that character that a TR does, while it does grant an epic past life feat (PLF) it does not adding anything to your stats (unless you're a 28 pt build). That made me fairly uncomfortable on my bard when I did the EDR, but I have no plans to TR her yet so I'll deal with it - I just think it's worth noting that it makes you look like you've got a little more weight to your stats than you might have.



As EllisDee37 said, some things that you would not expect to be bundled are bundled in odd places, and if you're suggesting bundled quests, it would be worth finding which are bundled in and posting up where they're bundled for anyone that is going to bother using the site store to get them.

Someone else already did a list/link with most of the packs and how much favor they give in the thread - and that may be a help to just link it to their post so someone that's wanting to can do an all in one spot assessment of favor vs TP if they're wanting to deviate from either your list of quest packs to get, or the older one.

I know you said you're not looking to do a comprehensive guide, but linking to posts that are exceptionally helpful like that one within the thread will do some of the work for the newer players/F2Ps looking to compare what to get first, otherwise they have to scan through everything in the thread.

SirValentine
08-22-2014, 06:57 AM
I did consider the mantle...
<snip>
You can get the Voice earlier and easier with Delera's Pack than Mantle through Threnal and absolutely no-one NEEDS the Augment!


Speak for yourself. I think The Master's Gift is far, far better than the Voice.



5) Getting a group together is nigh on impossible at level and BB goes out the window with the quests being out of order level wise.
<snip>
9) It competes at its level range with two of the most popular packs in the game - VoN and Shadow Crypt - Meaning absolutely no-one runs it!


Not my experience. I ran it in it's entirety pretty much every TR I did. With Bravery. And had no trouble getting groups for it when I tried to. Even if it's not highest XP/min, lots of people like the favor, good loot, and change of scenery.

Besides, according to the Lama Release Notes, as of Update 23 they're removing the (only moderate) challenge of babysitting Coyle entirely, and just making it auto-win. So now even the "keeping Coyle alive is too hard!" claim goes away.

marinersfan
08-22-2014, 09:21 AM
I've been messing around on a new f2p account lately, because I got bored of steamrolling everything in the game and wanted to play with no gear and no plat for a while, and here is the plan that I'm currently utilizing for getting myself content (please note, I utilized some of the sales from this summer, so this may not be entirely feasible):

Get the 100 favor on 3-4 servers to get a nice little TP stash.
Get a character to level ~14 on a given server (she is close to 1000 favor at this point in time). On this same server, play another one up to ~level 10 (pretty fast and easy to get here on a f2p, and solid favor for doing so)
Play on a new server and get another character up to about level 14 (close to 1000 favor), and then start one more character here and play them until you can't get any higher without repeating quests a bunch of times.

Before I finished all of this, adventure packs went on a 20% off sale, since I couldn't afford any of the marquee packs like gianthold or vale yet, I chose to buy 2 packs:
1) Devil's assault - I got this first because it is super cheap, and my plan is to run one of my 14's up to 20 asap, and TR ASAP so that I can start another favor grind while being able to open hard which should speed things up if I can't find groups.
2) Reaver's refuge - I bought this one for a similar reason, it is cheap and it seems like people run the flagging quests fairly often (especially enter the kobold). The quests are decent xp for how cheap the pack is, plus I like how dragontouched armor looks (despite the stupid mechanic to get it, and how not awesome it is these days). I know 18-20 will be a tough run without buying something, and this was all I could afford at the time of the sale

As I continued my favor acquiring plan, things occasionally went on sale (summer sails, especially)..I ended up buying stuff I was not planning to, and it threw me off:
3) House C challenges - for 75% off, I wanted to see what the hubbub was about. The challenges are somewhat fun, most can be solo'd with a decent outcome at lower levels. These are sort of nice in that you can get xp at any level with these challenges, so regardless of what level you're stuck at, you can get a bit of xp here. The items are also not bad, and you can get TR hearts pretty quickly if your character is strong enough to solo adventure at 20+. Drawbacks, not awesome xp, VERY hard to find groups. Bottom line, probably don't buy this, unless it is 75% off.
4) Shared bank - it was 50% off, and I thought it would be useful in conjunction with house C to share items/ingredients. So far I haven't used it much, but I know I will.


These purchases put me back to like 110 TP. I need to farm favor hard now in order to get packs. For the most part, I agree with OP's assessment of what is worth buying. I think I will go for Gianthold or Vale first, or maaaybe necro IV. I don't necessarily agree that Sands is that high of a priority, but then again, I am stalling out around level 14.

Take-home message - it is quite a major grind in order to get everything you want without putting money into your account. That is a nice list that has been made, but it will take a VERY VERY LONG TIME in order to even get just the top 3 packs. I don't think it's worth squabbling over what pack is #11 and which is #13 because it will take a super long time to get that far down the list...I recommend grabbing some low-cost packs to augment what you can run. If possible, you should buy menace of the underdark, the packs you get free in addition to MOTU are nicely spaced out and will make your trip from 1-20 much easier and enjoyable. Once at 20, I recommend TRing as quickly as possible (unless you were able to buy vale of twilight, then maybe try to get greensteel before TR) to run through the material a time or two for more favor. Epic destinies are nice, but don't buy them until you're actually feeling ready to take on epic quests, and have bought several of those packs.

FranOhmsford
08-22-2014, 10:06 AM
I've been messing around on a new f2p account lately, because I got bored of steamrolling everything in the game and wanted to play with no gear and no plat for a while, and here is the plan that I'm currently utilizing for getting myself content (please note, I utilized some of the sales from this summer, so this may not be entirely feasible):

Get the 100 favor on 3-4 servers to get a nice little TP stash.
Get a character to level ~14 on a given server (she is close to 1000 favor at this point in time). On this same server, play another one up to ~level 10 (pretty fast and easy to get here on a f2p, and solid favor for doing so)
Play on a new server and get another character up to about level 14 (close to 1000 favor), and then start one more character here and play them until you can't get any higher without repeating quests a bunch of times.

Before I finished all of this, adventure packs went on a 20% off sale, since I couldn't afford any of the marquee packs like gianthold or vale yet, I chose to buy 2 packs:
1) Devil's assault - I got this first because it is super cheap, and my plan is to run one of my 14's up to 20 asap, and TR ASAP so that I can start another favor grind while being able to open hard which should speed things up if I can't find groups.
2) Reaver's refuge - I bought this one for a similar reason, it is cheap and it seems like people run the flagging quests fairly often (especially enter the kobold). The quests are decent xp for how cheap the pack is, plus I like how dragontouched armor looks (despite the stupid mechanic to get it, and how not awesome it is these days). I know 18-20 will be a tough run without buying something, and this was all I could afford at the time of the sale

As I continued my favor acquiring plan, things occasionally went on sale (summer sails, especially)..I ended up buying stuff I was not planning to, and it threw me off:
3) House C challenges - for 75% off, I wanted to see what the hubbub was about. The challenges are somewhat fun, most can be solo'd with a decent outcome at lower levels. These are sort of nice in that you can get xp at any level with these challenges, so regardless of what level you're stuck at, you can get a bit of xp here. The items are also not bad, and you can get TR hearts pretty quickly if your character is strong enough to solo adventure at 20+. Drawbacks, not awesome xp, VERY hard to find groups. Bottom line, probably don't buy this, unless it is 75% off.
4) Shared bank - it was 50% off, and I thought it would be useful in conjunction with house C to share items/ingredients. So far I haven't used it much, but I know I will.


These purchases put me back to like 110 TP. I need to farm favor hard now in order to get packs. For the most part, I agree with OP's assessment of what is worth buying. I think I will go for Gianthold or Vale first, or maaaybe necro IV. I don't necessarily agree that Sands is that high of a priority, but then again, I am stalling out around level 14.



Ouch!

Unless You're one hell of a player you're going to rue buying RR!

There's lots of cheap packs that would have been better choices - the first one that comes to mind in that lvl range is IQ {which in my experience is run an order of magnitude more than RR!}.

It's also most definitely NOT a Newbie friendly area - Just figuring out how to get back out of there has flummoxed many {Advice: NEVER bind yourself here!}


House C Challenges even at 75% off are a bad buy as they can be played on a completely F2P account just by picking up the tokens each day.


And DA may be nice for TR tokens but gives you exactly one more quest and one raid.


It also sounds like you're a vet levelling a second account - Recommendations for you would be totally different to recommendations for newbies!




I have been removed on my bard pugging (first lifer, no wings from EDR, full caster spend as an SS with focused CC - in the maxed out fatesinger ED because it was my highest and helped give me even more cc) because I didn't kill enough. Apparently making everything stand still and not letting anyone dying through my heals and CC makes me a horrible player. It was not a 'zerg' group or a byoh group. We had no cleric and I was the only one keeping the full group alive. They had pointedly asked me if I was able to heal at the start as well.

Sounds like you got a group mix of Trinity Elitists and DDOElitists - I'd be surprised if it was the same player who asked you about Heals who Booted you for not killing enough {otherwise that guy's got a split personality problem!}.



As EllisDee37 said, some things that you would not expect to be bundled are bundled in odd places, and if you're suggesting bundled quests, it would be worth finding which are bundled in and posting up where they're bundled for anyone that is going to bother using the site store to get them.

Someone else already did a list/link with most of the packs and how much favor they give in the thread - and that may be a help to just link it to their post so someone that's wanting to can do an all in one spot assessment of favor vs TP if they're wanting to deviate from either your list of quest packs to get, or the older one.

I know you said you're not looking to do a comprehensive guide, but linking to posts that are exceptionally helpful like that one within the thread will do some of the work for the newer players/F2Ps looking to compare what to get first, otherwise they have to scan through everything in the thread.

Unfortunately, as eminently shown in this thread: I have rather vehement issues with that thread as:
1) The OP is way too subjective and his placement of Sharn above Catacombs just because of some subjective Fun Factor is particularly egregious as Catacombs wins easily on:
-Total Favour
-Useful Favour
-XP
-Loot
-Price
and
-Popularity of Pugs
2) The views in that thread are massively out of date i.e. The OP's refusal to even countenance the fact that Vale is not now anywhere near as strong as it once was!

Yes that thread does list all the prices, favour totals etc. BUT I definitely do NOT recommend it to Newbies coming to the game now!

They're better off going to the Wiki for Favour and XP comparisons or the DDOStore for price comparisons.


And as the other poster I replied to in this post proved - Buying on Price alone is often a trap for newbies and can leave them with a massive grind to get the expensive packs if they spend the quick early favour on cheaper options!


My advice to Newbies who cannot afford to actually pay for points and need to Favour Farm to get their packs is to SAVE UP that Favour TP until you have enough for Sands of Menechtarun - That will give you almost 200 more Favour, Covers the bare levels from 10-15 and allows you to keep playing until you can save up enough to get Gianthold.
Which gives another 200+ Favour and Covers the bare levels from 16-20.
These two packs also both have Epic Viability and the next thing for you to do is...either:
-TR and earn more favour
-Create a new alt if you haven't already and level that to 20 earning more favour as you go.
or
Get Epic Destinies now if you already have enough points earned to do so AND play some Epics.

Then you can look at getting Necro IV {or the entire Necropolis Bundle}.

3 Barrel Cove, Vale of Twilight and Vault of Night = Really it's your choice of which of these to get next - But The Landlubber Bundle which incl. 3BC if you can afford it is the best choice as it gives the most playability even though it also costs the most!

I personally don't consider Lordsmarch II being in both The Landlubber Bundle and The MotU Expansion to be a problem unless you've already bought the MotU expansion or have plans on buying it anytime soon {and frankly you're not going to be doing that on Favour TP alone!}.
Also: If you're buying the MotU Expansion - That incl. EDs too!

Manatha
08-22-2014, 11:03 AM
Ouch!
Sounds like you got a group mix of Trinity Elitists and DDOElitists - I'd be surprised if it was the same player who asked you about Heals who Booted you for not killing enough {otherwise that guy's got a split personality problem!}.
It was the same guy. He expected both the kills and the heals out of me, because a swash can apparently do it in the right ED, but as a Spell Singer I couldn't pull the damage. I actually took an EDR yesterday and... at level 22 today (and a level one ED) I managed to Duo an EE GH quest (my bard's only good gear is her weapon).



Unfortunately, as eminently shown in this thread: I have rather vehement issues with that thread as:
1) The OP is way too subjective and his placement of Sharn above Catacombs just because of some subjective Fun Factor is particularly egregious as Catacombs wins easily on:
-Total Favour
-Useful Favour
-XP
-Loot
-Price
and
-Popularity of Pugs
2) The views in that thread are massively out of date i.e. The OP's refusal to even countenance the fact that Vale is not now anywhere near as strong as it once was!

Wasn't thinking of that other thread, was thinking more linking into

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447063-Using-your-Favour-TP-Correctly?p=5408021&viewfull=1#post5408021

I was thinking post that near the bottom of yours as a link to a useful list within the thread. Although I don't agree with the assessment of 'buy the ones that are cheapest first' (since it would put reaver's right at the top of the list and that'd be just painful for some new players) but it has a short at a glance show of the TP spent and Favor in the code.

Or hell, just link direct to http://ddowiki.com/page/Adventure_Packs to allow them to get a good look at the full list without the need to dig around at all. It's not editing the primary list of 'these are big quests to get' but it is giving them an all in one spot they might not otherwise get directed to right off if they are full newbies.

FranOhmsford
08-22-2014, 12:38 PM
It was the same guy. He expected both the kills and the heals out of me, because a swash can apparently do it in the right ED, but as a Spell Singer I couldn't pull the damage. I actually took an EDR yesterday and... at level 22 today (and a level one ED) I managed to Duo an EE GH quest (my bard's only good gear is her weapon).

Lol - Well some people do get so enamoured of the latest thing that they forget people might be playing a different build.

You're def better off out of that group though!




Wasn't thinking of that other thread, was thinking more linking into

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447063-Using-your-Favour-TP-Correctly?p=5408021&viewfull=1#post5408021

I was thinking post that near the bottom of yours as a link to a useful list within the thread. Although I don't agree with the assessment of 'buy the ones that are cheapest first' (since it would put reaver's right at the top of the list and that'd be just painful for some new players) but it has a short at a glance show of the TP spent and Favor in the code.

As you've stated yourself: The advice in that post to buy the cheaper packs first is simply terrible as it ignores whether the packs are actually worth getting.
And makes linking that post to the OP a bad idea.


Or hell, just link direct to http://ddowiki.com/page/Adventure_Packs to allow them to get a good look at the full list without the need to dig around at all. It's not editing the primary list of 'these are big quests to get' but it is giving them an all in one spot they might not otherwise get directed to right off if they are full newbies.

Linked.

EllisDee37
08-22-2014, 04:41 PM
Unfortunately, as eminently shown in this thread: I have rather vehement issues with that thread as:
1) The OP is way too subjective and his placement of Sharn above Catacombs just because of some subjective Fun Factor is particularly egregious as Catacombs wins easily on:
-Total Favour
-Useful Favour
-XP
-Loot
-Price
and
-Popularity of Pugs
2) The views in that thread are massively out of date i.e. The OP's refusal to even countenance the fact that Vale is not now anywhere near as strong as it once was!The views in that thread are not massively out of date.

Your views are contrarian. That's fine. But don't pretend that your contrarian views are now conventional wisdom and my thread -- which was written last year -- is somehow massively out of date.

You also consistently give bad advice in here. Much of it is good advice, but you've dug in your heels on some bad advice that frankly baffles me. Also, why your Waterloo is the fact that you like catacombs (a terrible pack) so much more than sharn (a bad pack) is just weird. Who cares? Those should be among the last purchases anyone makes anyway.

Just because YOU PERSONALLY don't like Vale, that doesn't make Vale a low priority pack for new players. It's easily way higher priority than anything in the necropolis, for example.

EDIT: An example of your bad advice is insisting that the landlubber bundle is a good deal. It is not. It would be if a third of it didn't come with MotU standard edition. Essentially, the landlubber bundle is only 3BC (which you rate much too highly) and sentinels of stormreach, and apparently the reason you like them so much is because they offer a saga.

FranOhmsford
08-22-2014, 06:11 PM
The views in that thread are not massively out of date.

I'm not going to keep up this argument - Suffice to say that as you're the author of said thread we're highly unlikely to agree on that point.


Your views are contrarian. That's fine. But don't pretend that your contrarian views are now conventional wisdom and my thread -- which was written last year -- is somehow massively out of date.

Funny - As I never said my views were conventional wisdom - In fact it's conventional wisdom that I feel is wrong and why I've created this thread!



You also consistently give bad advice in here. Much of it is good advice, but you've dug in your heels on some bad advice that frankly baffles me. Also, why your Waterloo is the fact that you like catacombs (a terrible pack) so much more than sharn (a bad pack) is just weird. Who cares? Those should be among the last purchases anyone makes anyway.

Because your marking of Sharn above Catacombs shows just how subjective that thread is - You don't like Catacombs so completely ignore the fact that on literally every objective meter it is the better pack!

Price - Catacombs 250 - Sharn 350
Loot - Catacombs Lots of top of the range low level loot vs Sharn - Nicked Weapons which are barely = to Vendor Trash now
Total Favour - Catacombs 66 - Sharn 36
Useful Favour - Catacombs = Silver Flame - Sharn = Coin Lords {both are good but Coin Lords is very easy to hit 150 on and 400 you can take or leave WHILE Silver Flame 400 is considered mandatory by many and extremely hard to get!}
XP - Catacombs has 8 Quests {2 of which are very low XP}, Sharn has 6 Quests {none of which are particularly high} - Wiki puts Catacombs at almost 1000 more base XP than Sharn but that could be out of date.
Popularity of Pugs - Possibly a Subjective view but through experience I see Catacombs Pugged at least twice as often as Sharn!


Just because YOU PERSONALLY don't like Vale, that doesn't make Vale a low priority pack for new players. It's easily way higher priority than anything in the necropolis, for example.

Again you show you're relying on old information - Orchard is being Epicced - That instantly moves Necro IV above Vale!

And NEVER have I said Vale was low Priority either - I placed it in my TOP 5 for goodness sake!
Just because I don't place it at number 1 doesn't make it low priority!


EDIT: An example of your bad advice is insisting that the landlubber bundle is a good deal. It is not. It would be if a third of it didn't come with MotU standard edition. Essentially, the landlubber bundle is only 3BC (which you rate much too highly) and sentinels of stormreach, and apparently the reason you like them so much is because they offer a saga.

Attack on Stormreach is 4 quests - I certainly wouldn't consider it a whole 3rd of the Landlubber Bundle!

And yet again you're ignoring New Information - Sagas are HUGE!!!
3BC having a Saga {which from what I've read is going to be repeatable once every 3 days!} immediately moves it way up the list!
Epic Availability places it even higher!
Recent Loot Upgrades moved it up the list too!
Oh and it's also had some serious XP Upgrades!
These aren't subjective opinions - They're FACTS!

I liked 3BC long before any of the changes above BUT I wouldn't have recommended it anywhere near as highly as I do today!

I avoided Sentinels of Stormreach at Level like the Plague before the Saga - I hate that Pack with a Passion! - Yet I rate it highly because I'm trying to be OBJECTIVE here and Objectively it's now a Strong Pack! {Not Top 5, Possibly Not Top 10 BUT a heck of a lot higher than Pre Update 22!}.

FranOhmsford
08-22-2014, 06:20 PM
I've made a couple of Edits:

Rumoured Changes to Hold For Reinforcements mean I've moved Threnal up 4 places to 25th on my List of Packs and taken it off the "Do Not Buy" List in the OP.

And I've also moved Druid's Deep above Reign of Madness as the former does have Epic availability while the latter doesn't.

marinersfan
08-22-2014, 06:44 PM
Ouch!

Unless You're one hell of a player you're going to rue buying RR!

There's lots of cheap packs that would have been better choices - the first one that comes to mind in that lvl range is IQ {which in my experience is run an order of magnitude more than RR!}.

It's also most definitely NOT a Newbie friendly area - Just figuring out how to get back out of there has flummoxed many {Advice: NEVER bind yourself here!}


House C Challenges even at 75% off are a bad buy as they can be played on a completely F2P account just by picking up the tokens each day.


And DA may be nice for TR tokens but gives you exactly one more quest and one raid.


It also sounds like you're a vet levelling a second account - Recommendations for you would be totally different to recommendations for newbies!


Valid points, let me hash out my reasoning a bit more.

Reaver's refuge is super low TP, and it seems like on my other characters I can usually find a group to run the flagging quests (never SOS) most lives on elite. The quests are certainly not easy, but they do provide pretty good xp (especially enter the kobold). I agree completely that IQ is a more fun, better pack, BUT it is included in the MOTU expansion purchase -- if there is even a 1% chance I buy MOTU, it'd be wise to wait on IQ. PS - I am not awesome, but as I mentioned, I get bored steamrolling quests and like to have a difficult pack or two :). It is not newbie friendly, but it will also help you learn how to play your characters effectively...if you can find a group.

House C at 75% off was probably not a great purchase. However, my play time is extremely limited lately, and this way I don't have to waste time/effort getting the daily tokens, and I can run the challenges whenever & however many times I want. I am happy with the purchase, but as I said, not worth it for anything less than 75% off (AKA, don't buy it because it is unlikely to be so steeply discounted again).

DA, I think, is a worthy early purchase as I think most new players would benefit more from TRing once or twice before getting too involved in epic questing. Getting to 20 you won't be rolling in turbine points, if you have Devil's Assault, you can reset your favor clock and perhaps buy an epic pack or two on your way back up to 20 if that's something you fancy.

I guess if I had to come to a conclusion after my ramblings, it'd be that your rankings are pretty good; the only place I disagree is your emphasis on epic quests. I consider myself an average player and it took me a LONG time to get a competent character to cap, so I think a new player should spend more focus on getting good coverage of heroic quests they can afford first, then start to complement that with some of the better epic stuffs when they are finally starting to get comfortable at 20+.

FranOhmsford
08-22-2014, 06:56 PM
Valid points, let me hash out my reasoning a bit more.

Reaver's refuge is super low TP, and it seems like on my other characters I can usually find a group to run the flagging quests (never SOS) most lives on elite. The quests are certainly not easy, but they do provide pretty good xp (especially enter the kobold). I agree completely that IQ is a more fun, better pack, BUT it is included in the MOTU expansion purchase -- if there is even a 1% chance I buy MOTU, it'd be wise to wait on IQ. PS - I am not awesome, but as I mentioned, I get bored steamrolling quests and like to have a difficult pack or two :). It is not newbie friendly, but it will also help you learn how to play your characters effectively...if you can find a group.

Yes but you're clearly a Vet who can cope with RR - I've been playing 4 years and know for a fact I can't solo a single quest out there!
And I'm not all that much use in a group out there either!

No - It's not Newbie Friendly - It's probably the least Newbie Friendly pack in the game - Which is why I have to say this again:
Recommendations for a Vet like you building a second account would be totally different to the recommendations in this thread!


House C at 75% off was probably not a great purchase. However, my play time is extremely limited lately, and this way I don't have to waste time/effort getting the daily tokens, and I can run the challenges whenever & however many times I want. I am happy with the purchase, but as I said, not worth it for anything less than 75% off (AKA, don't buy it because it is unlikely to be so steeply discounted again).

Yup - If you absolutely HAVE to play through the Challenges in as short a time as possible obviously you're going to want to buy this pack BUT want and need are two totally different things and it's just not worth recommending in any way as you can play it completely free so long as you're patient!


DA, I think, is a worthy early purchase as I think most new players would benefit more from TRing once or twice before getting too involved in epic questing. Getting to 20 you won't be rolling in turbine points, if you have Devil's Assault, you can reset your favor clock and perhaps buy an epic pack or two on your way back up to 20 if that's something you fancy.

It's not exactly low down on my list BUT again it's only 1 quest and a raid and so doesn't offer much in the way of helping a Newbie - Especially as said Newbie can run LoD/Servants/Wiz King/CoF a few times and get those tokens that way!


I guess if I had to come to a conclusion after my ramblings, it'd be that your rankings are pretty good; the only place I disagree is your emphasis on epic quests. I consider myself an average player and it took me a LONG time to get a competent character to cap, so I think a new player should spend more focus on getting good coverage of heroic quests they can afford first, then start to complement that with some of the better epic stuffs when they are finally starting to get comfortable at 20+.

I used to think the same thing - In fact I bought EVERY Low Level and most Mid Level packs BEFORE I bought Vale or Necro IV or Gianthold - BIG MISTAKE!

Now I spent real money on TP and so I just spent more real money to get the TP for those packs.
HOWEVER:
F2P Favour Farmers won't have that option and so should concentrate on getting the Strong Expensive Packs first with their easy to farm early favour AS they can get lesser cost packs later as they go on sale with much less extra farming.

marinersfan
08-22-2014, 07:12 PM
In fact I bought EVERY Low Level and most Mid Level packs BEFORE I bought Vale or Necro IV or Gianthold - BIG MISTAKE!

Now I spent real money on TP and so I just spent more real money to get the TP for those packs.
HOWEVER:
F2P Favour Farmers won't have that option and so should concentrate on getting the Strong Expensive Packs first with their easy to farm early favour AS they can get lesser cost packs later as they go on sale with much less extra farming.


I said they should get good level coverage, not buy low and mid-level packs. I agree 100% they should focus on packs in the proper range, but I disagree with your assertion that they should focus on the top 5 you have listed (especially 3 barrel cove). Your top-5 cost roughly 5000 TP...that is going to take an eternity to grind for. I would think a new player would have more fun if they were able to buy 1 or 2 of the major packs and then complement them with some of the cheaper packs in the hard-to-level range (ie: 18-20)

Reaver's is hard, but not impossible. I've seen newbies handle themselves there

FranOhmsford
08-22-2014, 07:30 PM
I said they should get good level coverage, not buy low and mid-level packs. I agree 100% they should focus on packs in the proper range, but I disagree with your assertion that they should focus on the top 5 you have listed (especially 3 barrel cove). Your top-5 cost roughly 5000 TP...that is going to take an eternity to grind for. I would think a new player would have more fun if they were able to buy 1 or 2 of the major packs and then complement them with some of the cheaper packs in the hard-to-level range (ie: 18-20)

Reaver's is hard, but not impossible. I've seen newbies handle themselves there

From the DDOWiki:


A common recommendation for earning TP is to reach 100 favor on each server.
For each server you will earn 100 bonus TP for reaching 5, 25, and 50 favor for the first time on the server, 25 TP for reaching 100 favor, 100 TP for reaching 1000 favor, and an additional 100 TP for every 1000 thereafter.

Very badly written actually as that reads as a total of 425 tp for 100 Favour - It's actually 50,25 and 25 for a TOTAL of 100 tp at 50 Favour and 125 at 100

That's 125 TP per Server for just running a character to 100 Favour on each!

125 X 8 = 1000 Favour

Now make that 200 - Korthos + the Harbour on Elite will get you this and 100/200 Favour Runs are still commonplace!

And you can add another 25tp per server which will take you to 1200 total!

That will get you Sands and a good portion of the way to Gianthold!

Now take your first character on your chosen Main Server to 500 Favour which will get you another 125 TP

Then you can start looking at getting a second character to 500 on your main Server for another 175 TP

Now do the same on a second server and a third and so on.


Yes it's a Grind BUT that first 500 Favour per Server with 2 characters per Server gains you a grand total of 3,400 TP!

And if you spend that 3,400 wisely you'll have the content to play Epics OR TR to your heart's content - Constantly gaining more favour as you go!

You'll also have mastered the Lower Level quests and gotten to know your way around multiple characters AND have a good knowledge of which server suits you best!

EllisDee37
08-22-2014, 07:32 PM
Funny - As I never said my views were conventional wisdom - In fact it's conventional wisdom that I feel is wrong and why I've created this thread!You have failed to make any compelling argument about why the conventional wisdom is wrong.


Because your marking of Sharn above Catacombs shows just how subjective that thread is - You don't like Catacombs so completely ignore the fact that on literally every objective meter it is the better pack!It's an undead pack. Undead packs by their very nature are less fun than packs with regular mobs. The reason is because undead packs nullify many of the game's mechanics, such as critical hits, sneak attacks, tactical feats (eg: stunning blow), enchantments, and social skills (eg: intimidate) on mindless undead. All of that stuff works fine in sharn.

In terms of loot, sharn is better than catacombs, and by a decent margin, because new players can use the bta lootgen for crafting. It's easy for new players to get high level shards made for them by high level crafters, but being able to then put those unbound shards on BTA blanks means that they only need to employ a crafter once instead of once for every character. Further, it's quite reasonable for a new player to aim for level 35 in all crafting schools, which is sufficiently high to craft all the weapons for themselves that they might want.

XP for both is irrelevant due to their level ranges. Nobody needs more level 3 or 4 xp because there is plenty of F2P xp in that level range.

The favor is worthless in both, pretty much, but at least coin lords favor is something a new player can use. A new player is not going to get any benefit out of silver flame favor at all. Zero. Nada.


And NEVER have I said Vale was low Priority either - I placed it in my TOP 5 for goodness sake!
Just because I don't place it at number 1 doesn't make it low priority!I don't place Vale number 1 either. That honor goes to Gianthold.


Attack on Stormreach is 4 quests - I certainly wouldn't consider it a whole 3rd of the Landlubber Bundle!Good grief. There are three packs in the bundle. One of the three packs doesn't count for anyone who will ever buy MotU standard edition, which is possibly the best purchase available in the entire game. Pretend attack on stormreach isn't part of the landlubber bundle and then tell me how good a purchase it is.


And yet again you're ignoring New Information - Sagas are HUGE!!!This explains some of your bad advice at least.

EllisDee37
08-22-2014, 07:43 PM
Actually, if this thread is a guide for how to play the game totally free, as in never buying any TP at all, then I take back many of my criticisms. Your advice is pretty solid for pure F2P.

This isn't at all clear in the OP, though. "Not going VIP" to me means going premium. As a premium guide (like my thread), I'm not a fan of your advice. But for a pure F2P player, things are quite different.

For example, Catacombs becomes a top 5 pack (if not #1) for a purely F2P player. Sorrowdusk is also quite high. (top 5 easily) Landlubber is also very good. The biggest issue for a true F2P is the necropolis dilemma. The first three are some of the best TP:Favor packs in the game, but you "waste" a lot of TP if you don't hold out for the bundle.

FranOhmsford
08-22-2014, 07:58 PM
It's an undead pack. Undead packs by their very nature are less fun than packs with regular mobs. The reason is because undead packs nullify many of the game's mechanics, such as critical hits, sneak attacks, tactical feats (eg: stunning blow), enchantments, and social skills (eg: intimidate) on mindless undead. All of that stuff works fine in sharn.

And on a Cleric or Paladin Undead Packs are 100 times more fun than none undead packs - See: Subjective Opinion!


In terms of loot, sharn is better than catacombs, and by a decent margin, because new players can use the bta lootgen for crafting. It's easy for new players to get high level shards made for them by high level crafters, but being able to then put those unbound shards on BTA blanks means that they only need to employ a crafter once instead of once for every character. Further, it's quite reasonable for a new player to aim for level 35 in all crafting schools, which is sufficiently high to craft all the weapons for themselves that they might want.

How many new players have multiple alts they need to craft for? {And how many of them even have Shared Bank {an absolute MUST if you're going to be transferring BtA items between characters!}?
How many new players are sitting waiting for someone who's willing to craft for NOTHING rather than actually playing the game! - New players aren't exactly rolling in Plat you know!
Lol at Aiming for Lvl 35 Crafting on a New Player's Plat and just with the Essences one earns through Questing with one or at most 2 characters! - You'll be Lvl 20 before you get that!

Please stop pretending that there's loads of people out there with Max crafting levels who are willing to craft for newbies free of charge - There's probably some people like that {You may be one of them} BUT they're few and far between!


XP for both is irrelevant due to their level ranges. Nobody needs more level 3 or 4 xp because there is plenty of F2P xp in that level range.

There's plenty of XP in EVERY Level Range - You and others keep harping on about Delera's and Voice of the Master - I used Objective markers to demonstrate my point and XP is an objective marker - Catacombs is slightly better than Sharn for XP!


The favor is worthless in both, pretty much, but at least coin lords favor is something a new player can use. A new player is not going to get any benefit out of silver flame favor at all. Zero. Nada.

Yes because when said New Player gets to Lvl 16+ and doesn't have Silver Flame Pots Vets aren't gonna boot him/her from Party!

And 150 Coin Lords Favour is easily gettable from F2P Quests - Sharn is completely unnecessary! - 400 Coin Lords Favour is a marginal benefit to Tanks {You know...Those Characters that are Persona non Grata in DDO!} at best!


I don't place Vale number 1 either. That honor goes to Gianthold.

So because I place Vale just 3 places below you I'm saying Vale's Low Priority? You're having a Laugh!


Good grief. There are three packs in the bundle. One of the three packs doesn't count for anyone who will ever buy MotU standard edition, which is possibly the best purchase available in the entire game. Pretend attack on stormreach isn't part of the landlubber bundle and then tell me how good a purchase it is.

The Landlubber Bundle is more expensive I believe than getting 3BC and Sentinels separately so no it's not a good purchase without Attack on Stormreach BUT stating Attack on Stormreach is a 3rd of the Content in Said Bundle is just as Silly!

3BC alone has more content than Sentinels and AoS put together!!!

And frankly - As I believe I've stated many times - This thread is for those who aren't willing or able to spend real money on the game - and therefore highly unlikely to EVER buy MotU!
MotU is a great Buy - I've never disputed that! BUT EDs are listed in the OP and multiple people have told me to put them higher up/Bold them etc. - Buy MotU and they have no place in the OP either!

marinersfan
08-22-2014, 10:00 PM
From the DDOWiki:



Very badly written actually as that reads as a total of 425 tp for 100 Favour - It's actually 50,25 and 25 for a TOTAL of 100 tp at 50 Favour and 125 at 100

That's 125 TP per Server for just running a character to 100 Favour on each!

125 X 8 = 1000 Favour

Now make that 200 - Korthos + the Harbour on Elite will get you this and 100/200 Favour Runs are still commonplace!

And you can add another 25tp per server which will take you to 1200 total!

That will get you Sands and a good portion of the way to Gianthold!

Now take your first character on your chosen Main Server to 500 Favour which will get you another 125 TP

Then you can start looking at getting a second character to 500 on your main Server for another 175 TP

Now do the same on a second server and a third and so on.


Yes it's a Grind BUT that first 500 Favour per Server with 2 characters per Server gains you a grand total of 3,400 TP!

And if you spend that 3,400 wisely you'll have the content to play Epics OR TR to your heart's content - Constantly gaining more favour as you go!

You'll also have mastered the Lower Level quests and gotten to know your way around multiple characters AND have a good knowledge of which server suits you best!

This is nicely broken down. I don't have the fortitude to run that many characters to 500 favor, but seeing the breakdown does make your proposition more reasonable (I still think I'd pass sands over and get gianthold first, because I find a lot of the sands quests annoying and not conducive to new players "wiz king be able to solo a tower" is about all I ever see...probably gianthold, vale, necro bundle, devil's assault, then re-evaluate on what I needed). Farming for epic tokens is a huge chore when you don't have Devil's assault ever since they switched to token fragments (though granted, I haven't played epics in months..maybe they have upped the drop rates?).

A comment about this being for someone who will NEVER spend a cent on ddo makes it more reasonable to recommend IQ, other quest packs from MOTU, and epic destinies, but I still say to you new players "hold out for black friday and you may get MOTU for super cheap".