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Tentaki
08-13-2014, 12:13 AM
The Icebreaker: Bard 12/Fighter 6/Rogue 2 OR Bard 16/Fighter 2/Rogue 2

First off, let me introduce you to a screenshot that basically sums up this build in a nutshell:

http://i.imgur.com/zyqCcxW.jpg (http://imgur.com/zyqCcxW)

Welcome to the Icebreaker.

The idea of this build is to freeze as many enemies as possible, then hammer down on them before they can thaw themselves. This build works surprisingly similar to a monk, except better as you get a single target freeze as often as a stunning fist, but also a no-save freeze on vorpal hits every so often, and an AoE freeze that can basically be used every fight or every other fight which can be very effective (see above). Freezing is also amazing because it works on basically everything except red names, shadows, and ghosts.

This build can work with any variant of fighting except unarmed. Mostly because you're a bard, but even more mostly because you need to use a sword. Single weapon, two-handed, or two-weapon will all work.

First, let's get some of the keystones of the build out in the open.

The Mantra:

This build is fairly flexible in general, but it will require you to use swords and the Purple Dragon Knight race.

The PDK race is essential for this sole enhancement:

- Cormyrean Knight Training: You now use Charisma or Strength, whichever is higher, for attack and damage with shortswords, longswords, bastard swords, and greatswords. In addition, as long as your Charisma remains higher than your Strength and you are wielding one of the above weapons, you receive a bonus to the DCs of your Tactical Feats equal to 1/3 your Charisma modifier.

That's right, this is a charisma based build. Why? Let's look at the three core abilities the Icebreaker focuses on:

- The Frozen Fury: Make a melee attack with +(1/2/3)[W] damage. Affected enemies must make a Fortitude save (10 + Charisma modifier + 1/2 Bard Level + Stunning modifiers) or become frozen solid for number of seconds equal to half of your Bard levels. Cooldown: (12/9/6) seconds. Bosses cannot be frozen.

- Northwind: On vorpal hit, your enemy is briefly frozen. No save. This effect triggers at most once every (30/24/18) seconds. Bosses cannot be frozen.

- Spinning Ice: Attack all enemies around you for +(2/3/4)[W] damage. Each affected enemy is frozen solid if they fail a Fortitude save (14 + Charisma modifier + 1/2 Bard Level + Stunning modifiers) for a number of seconds equal to your half your Bard level. Bosses cannot be frozen. Increased ranks increases how much Bard levels contribute. Activation cost: 6/4/2 SP. Cooldown 45/35/25 seconds.

Now, let's do some math and figure out what your end game DC's will be, with the 12 Bard/6 Fighter/2 Rogue variant, assuming a 52 charisma.

Frozen Fury: 10 (base) + 6 (half bard level) + 21 (charisma modifier) + 7 (Cormyrian Knight Training) + 10 (Stunning Item) + 5 (Exceptional Stunning) + 3 (Fighter Tactics) + 2 (Epic Destiny Feat, Tactics) + 6 (Legendary Dreadnaught Tactics) = 70.

Spinning Ice: Same as above, but a 14 base, so 74 total.

This also doesn't include any of the fighter past life feats, ship buffs, fortitude save debuffs you might have, or anything else along those lines. Meaning, you could get the DC of Frozen Fury up into the high 70's and Spinning Ice into the 80's fairly easily with those feats. Even at the stats above, though, you're going to proc your freezing pretty often, enough that you'll be surprised when you miss.

For the 16 Bard/2 Fighter/2 Rogue build, add another 2 to the DC, and another 2 seconds to the stun duration.

Now, remember that the above only works if you're using short swords, long swords, bastard swords, or great swords. I personally think of all the fighting styles, short swords are the way to go because it allows you to Swashbuckle and that good short swords (like Elemental Fury) are fairly easy to find. I also enjoy the 6 levels of fighter because you can generally cram in Stalwart Defender into the mix as well, giving you a ton of HP and some buffs to your saves.

The good news of this build is you only need to focus on Charisma, really, because your attack bonus and damage will also come from this tree.

Stats:

Max Charisma. That's really all that's important. The rest of the stats you can play with to your preference, though remember the dex and strength requirements for the feats if you go with Two Weapon Fighting and Two Handed Fighting respectively. However, if you have +5 tomes in Str, Con and Cha, consider going 16 Str, 16 Con and 18 Cha so you can get Overwhelming Critical and Epic Toughness (you'll have to dump 2 level-up points into Str), though.

Definitely try to get up to at least a 52 Charisma, since that gives you an extra +1 DC from Cormyrian Knight Training going from a 20 modifier to a 21.

Feats (Single Weapon Fighting Version):
Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (Piercing or Slashing depending on your weapon choice), Toughness, Quicken, Single Weapon Fighting, Greater Single Weapon Fighting, Improved Single Weapon Fighting, Force of Personality, Completionist, Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Overwhelming Critical, Epic Toughness.

If you don't have access to any of those, try subbing them out for things like Extend Spell, Mental Toughness, or whatever else floats your boat.

For the TWF and THF versions (with 2 fighter levels), just drop the shield mastery feats and sub in the appropriate TWF or THF feats where the Single Weapon Feats are.

Enhancements:

Pretty straightforward in that for the Warchanter tree, max out all your ice skills. Warchanters also get some great tier 5 abilities that give you 6% extra damage, x1 crits on 19-20 and of course the Spinning Ice attack. The 6% doublestrike enhancement in tier 4 is also pretty nice.

After that, make sure you pick up Cormyrean Knight Training in the PDK tree and that's about it as far as the core of the build goes. The rest you can basically pick at your leisure.

Twists:
I generally run this build with the Divine Crusader ED, twisting in Legendary Shield Mastery, Legendary Tactics, and Sense Weakness.

Skills

Focus on Perform first. Remember, you're a charisma based bard, your Fascinate skill is going to be amazing. After that, go for UMD and then Search and Disable Device if you can afford it, then whatever you feel like after that.

Gear:

I'm not going to go into a huge list of gear (mostly because I rarely stay at endgame, thus don't have much level 28 gear), but I will note some problems in this build in that having a +10 stunning item is almost essential and finding one is a bit of a challenge. A Seal of House Dun'Robar is probably the best option, but it's also the most difficult.

A cheaper and easier option is getting a Hide of the Goristro. Since you can wear light armor in this build, it fits in pretty nicely.

After that, if you can't get either of those, try getting a weapon with Stunning on it. If you can't get either of the above and getting it on a weapon is your only alternative, try going with a TWF variant so you can slot the stunning sword on your off hand (since it isn't likely to be very good).

+5 stunning items are fairly common, so just put one in to your choosing, though putting a +6 Adamantine Cloak of the Bear on is great if you can get it.

After that, max out your Charisma, and that's basically all you need for the core components.

So, this is my first build post on these forums and I'm sure I'm missing out on some things and people likely have some questions. So, let me know what they are and I'll try to cover them!

Tentaki
08-13-2014, 12:14 AM
Reserved

Trillea
08-13-2014, 12:28 AM
I thought the Single Weapon Fighting feats didn't work with the shield feats, since you can't have a shield when using SWF..

Tentaki
08-13-2014, 12:37 AM
I thought the Single Weapon Fighting feats didn't work with the shield feats, since you can't have a shield when using SWF..

You can use a buckler with SWF feats if you take the Swashbuckler style enhancement Skirmisher, in tier 3, but it only works if you're using finesse-able weapons.

Holybird
08-13-2014, 08:07 AM
Oh Damn. I've been playing similiar build for 2 weeks now. Works so nicely I decided to put it in the forums, and Bang! someone had already done it. My variant is 2handed Greatsword using PDK. Named the build Beowulf( blood of vikings run through my vains!). Anyway love the build overall.

jakeelala
08-17-2014, 10:52 AM
this is pretty badass.

however, SWB gives Cha, Int, or Dex to damage while SWF'ing so you dont need to be PDK if you SWF/SWB.

Drow would be good for this build I think too, for SS bonus damage and racial Cha. And Venomed blades

Also if you have Epic completionist and enough fate points, I would twist Energy Burst.

Cleave/Freeze -> EBurst

Repeat.

gwonbush
08-17-2014, 11:32 AM
this is pretty badass.

however, SWB gives Cha, Int, or Dex to damage while SWF'ing so you dont need to be PDK if you SWF/SWB.


The point of PDK is the +1/3 Cha mod to Tactics DCs when Cha is higher than Str, increasing the DCs for ice attacks. With 52 Cha, that's 7 to DCs for a mere 2 AP that also makes Cha your damage and attack stat.

Mindos
08-17-2014, 11:43 AM
The Icebreaker: Bard 12/Fighter 6/Rogue 2 OR Bard 16/Fighter 2/Rogue 2

Stats:

However, if you have +5 tomes in Str, Con and Cha, consider going 16 Str, 16 Con and 18 Cha so you can get Overwhelming Critical and Epic Toughness (you'll have to dump 2 level-up points into Str), though.

So, this is my first build post on these forums and I'm sure I'm missing out on some things and people likely have some questions. So, let me know what they are and I'll try to cover them!

With expected changes to Overwhelming Critical in the upcoming game update, ie, no longer having any prerequiste, fyi.

Zachski
08-17-2014, 01:20 PM
I know Swashbuckler needs to be nerfed a bit (hopefully not too much), but damn, Warchanter DC's require so much stuff that Swashbuckler DC's simply don't.

And this is AFTER they've been buffed, too.

Also, allow me to admit that I don't know just how good the DC's you listed are.

( I don't have Iconics yet D: )

poltt48
08-19-2014, 03:48 AM
Just wondering why not use a +1 heart and get rid of the warrior level go full 20 bard? Put 41 points in SB without taking a tier 5 ability so get capstone with evasion. Then put 3 points in PDK for the chr to damage and tactical mod. Put the last 36 in warchanter taking spinning ice, howl of the north, and all 3 levels of chant of power in tier 5 abilities. This way you max out your freeze dc that you can never fail on either. Also you end up with 56-58 chr, 32 max dodge cap, and inspire excellance song. Only thing you end up loosing is the rogue abilities and little prr if you went 6 warrior levels.

Gatleeon
09-03-2014, 04:00 PM
The Icebreaker: Bard 12/Fighter 6/Rogue 2 OR Bard 16/Fighter 2/Rogue 2

First off, let me introduce you to a screenshot that basically sums up this build in a nutshell:

http://i.imgur.com/zyqCcxW.jpg (http://imgur.com/zyqCcxW)

Welcome to the Icebreaker.

The idea of this build is to freeze as many enemies as possible, then hammer down on them before they can thaw themselves. This build works surprisingly similar to a monk, except better as you get a single target freeze as often as a stunning fist, but also a no-save freeze on vorpal hits every so often, and an AoE freeze that can basically be used every fight or every other fight which can be very effective (see above). Freezing is also amazing because it works on basically everything except red names, shadows, and ghosts.

This build can work with any variant of fighting except unarmed. Mostly because you're a bard, but even more mostly because you need to use a sword. Single weapon, two-handed, or two-weapon will all work.

First, let's get some of the keystones of the build out in the open.

The Mantra:

This build is fairly flexible in general, but it will require you to use swords and the Purple Dragon Knight race.

The PDK race is essential for this sole enhancement:

- Cormyrean Knight Training: You now use Charisma or Strength, whichever is higher, for attack and damage with shortswords, longswords, bastard swords, and greatswords. In addition, as long as your Charisma remains higher than your Strength and you are wielding one of the above weapons, you receive a bonus to the DCs of your Tactical Feats equal to 1/3 your Charisma modifier.

That's right, this is a charisma based build. Why? Let's look at the three core abilities the Icebreaker focuses on:

- The Frozen Fury: Make a melee attack with +(1/2/3)[W] damage. Affected enemies must make a Fortitude save (10 + Charisma modifier + 1/2 Bard Level + Stunning modifiers) or become frozen solid for number of seconds equal to half of your Bard levels. Cooldown: (12/9/6) seconds. Bosses cannot be frozen.

- Northwind: On vorpal hit, your enemy is briefly frozen. No save. This effect triggers at most once every (30/24/18) seconds. Bosses cannot be frozen.

- Spinning Ice: Attack all enemies around you for +(2/3/4)[W] damage. Each affected enemy is frozen solid if they fail a Fortitude save (14 + Charisma modifier + 1/2 Bard Level + Stunning modifiers) for a number of seconds equal to your half your Bard level. Bosses cannot be frozen. Increased ranks increases how much Bard levels contribute. Activation cost: 6/4/2 SP. Cooldown 45/35/25 seconds.

Now, let's do some math and figure out what your end game DC's will be, with the 12 Bard/6 Fighter/2 Rogue variant, assuming a 52 charisma.

Frozen Fury: 10 (base) + 6 (half bard level) + 21 (charisma modifier) + 7 (Cormyrian Knight Training) + 10 (Stunning Item) + 5 (Exceptional Stunning) + 3 (Fighter Tactics) + 2 (Epic Destiny Feat, Tactics) + 6 (Legendary Dreadnaught Tactics) = 70.

Spinning Ice: Same as above, but a 14 base, so 74 total.

This also doesn't include any of the fighter past life feats, ship buffs, fortitude save debuffs you might have, or anything else along those lines. Meaning, you could get the DC of Frozen Fury up into the high 70's and Spinning Ice into the 80's fairly easily with those feats. Even at the stats above, though, you're going to proc your freezing pretty often, enough that you'll be surprised when you miss.

For the 16 Bard/2 Fighter/2 Rogue build, add another 2 to the DC, and another 2 seconds to the stun duration.

Now, remember that the above only works if you're using short swords, long swords, bastard swords, or great swords. I personally think of all the fighting styles, short swords are the way to go because it allows you to Swashbuckle and that good short swords (like Elemental Fury) are fairly easy to find. I also enjoy the 6 levels of fighter because you can generally cram in Stalwart Defender into the mix as well, giving you a ton of HP and some buffs to your saves.

The good news of this build is you only need to focus on Charisma, really, because your attack bonus and damage will also come from this tree.

Stats:

Max Charisma. That's really all that's important. The rest of the stats you can play with to your preference, though remember the dex and strength requirements for the feats if you go with Two Weapon Fighting and Two Handed Fighting respectively. However, if you have +5 tomes in Str, Con and Cha, consider going 16 Str, 16 Con and 18 Cha so you can get Overwhelming Critical and Epic Toughness (you'll have to dump 2 level-up points into Str), though.

Definitely try to get up to at least a 52 Charisma, since that gives you an extra +1 DC from Cormyrian Knight Training going from a 20 modifier to a 21.

Feats (Single Weapon Fighting Version):
Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (Piercing or Slashing depending on your weapon choice), Toughness, Quicken, Single Weapon Fighting, Greater Single Weapon Fighting, Improved Single Weapon Fighting, Force of Personality, Completionist, Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Overwhelming Critical, Epic Toughness.

If you don't have access to any of those, try subbing them out for things like Extend Spell, Mental Toughness, or whatever else floats your boat.

For the TWF and THF versions (with 2 fighter levels), just drop the shield mastery feats and sub in the appropriate TWF or THF feats where the Single Weapon Feats are.

Enhancements:

Pretty straightforward in that for the Warchanter tree, max out all your ice skills. Warchanters also get some great tier 5 abilities that give you 6% extra damage, x1 crits on 19-20 and of course the Spinning Ice attack. The 6% doublestrike enhancement in tier 4 is also pretty nice.

After that, make sure you pick up Cormyrean Knight Training in the PDK tree and that's about it as far as the core of the build goes. The rest you can basically pick at your leisure.

Twists:
I generally run this build with the Divine Crusader ED, twisting in Legendary Shield Mastery, Legendary Tactics, and Sense Weakness.

Skills

Focus on Perform first. Remember, you're a charisma based bard, your Fascinate skill is going to be amazing. After that, go for UMD and then Search and Disable Device if you can afford it, then whatever you feel like after that.

Gear:

I'm not going to go into a huge list of gear (mostly because I rarely stay at endgame, thus don't have much level 28 gear), but I will note some problems in this build in that having a +10 stunning item is almost essential and finding one is a bit of a challenge. A Seal of House Dun'Robar is probably the best option, but it's also the most difficult.

A cheaper and easier option is getting a Hide of the Goristro. Since you can wear light armor in this build, it fits in pretty nicely.

After that, if you can't get either of those, try getting a weapon with Stunning on it. If you can't get either of the above and getting it on a weapon is your only alternative, try going with a TWF variant so you can slot the stunning sword on your off hand (since it isn't likely to be very good).

+5 stunning items are fairly common, so just put one in to your choosing, though putting a +6 Adamantine Cloak of the Bear on is great if you can get it.

After that, max out your Charisma, and that's basically all you need for the core components.

So, this is my first build post on these forums and I'm sure I'm missing out on some things and people likely have some questions. So, let me know what they are and I'll try to cover them!

Can you be a little bit more in depth with you build by telling me, 1st at what lvls did you take Bard/Fighter/Rog, 2nd just a heads up stunning items aren't that common at any +1 to +10 and 3rd and you show what your enhancement trees look like plz id like to try this build.

Angelfeathers86
09-11-2014, 06:57 PM
Awesome build, but I will say this though, I was having trouble with Cromyrean knight's training applying to my ice attacks but I figured out the work around to it. You have to equip your off hand weapon first, then the shortsword. :)

N-0cturn
09-12-2014, 09:09 AM
By the way:
After U23 Bard 15 / 3 Fighter / 2 Rogue will be a very good option as well. You can get Inspire Excellence and still get the stance with +20% HP.

I will go swash though ... PDK is way to ugly for my female bard and I can't find enough AP to get similar results from Harper.

unbongwah
10-03-2014, 02:12 PM
Has anyone tested this or similar builds with Vanguard yet? What I'm wondering is:

Does Stunning Shield DC bonus apply to Frozen Fury & Spinning Ice?
Does Frozen Fury & Stunning Ice cause Follow Up to proc?


Also, does Know the Angles (Harper) stack with CKT?

drnknmnky
10-03-2014, 02:21 PM
Unbongwah you are the best. These are the questions I am trying to figure out. I feel better knowing you are after this info and await eagerly anything u figure out.

PNP
01-08-2015, 12:32 PM
The Icebreaker: Bard 12/Fighter 6/Rogue 2 OR Bard 16/Fighter 2/Rogue 2


Thanks for posting the build, I did a bard 15 / fighter 3 / rogue 2 on a second lifer alt I had (first life was bard) - it worked very well, strong build, I cannot solo ee but in an ee group, I can stand out and it is the built, not the player (unfortunately). At 28 on ee with my ring of stunning +10 I almost never fail to freeze which is awesome. My gear is not that great but compared to a pure 20 warchanter my dc is higher so pdk does add a lot.

Just wanted to say hi and thanks

user21
01-10-2015, 01:43 PM
I played almost same build in several variants a while.

And I disagree in several points:
1) I think that 15 bard / 4 fighter / 1 wiz is better option - first of all you get extra feat, then you can get extra cleave on separate cooldown for 1 AP.
Yes, you will lose evasion, but now with PRR/MRR it is not that great.
It is kinda good to freeze crowd and then make 3 cleaves in a row and than makes few swings and make 2 cleaves again.
2) Destiny. Yes, crusader is good choice, but for me it is toooo slow.
My choice - Dreadnought becouse of that ability:
Combat Brute: Passive Bonus: You gain +1[W] damage with melee weapons and deal +50% damage to helpless opponents while any Action Boost is active.
I got all action boost from LD and all extra action boosts. So you can get 8(from LD)-11(extra boost from Kensai, but they pretty expensive)-12(ship buff)-13(with Alchemist's Pendant, propably, dont tested that) of each boost (Human Damage, LD Haste 3, LD Damage 1-3, LD attack 1, Sprint boost).
My favorite combination is Human Damage+LD Haste (which can be activate in same time) then make spinning ice and start to do cleaves.
You can activate one boost right after other.
3) In terms that you get a lot of extra damage using action boosts I get 3 lvl of action surge charisma (+3 cha while action boost active for more DC)
4) Feats to think:
Precision - Offensive Combat Stance: While using Precision mode, you gain +5% to hit and reduce the target's fortification against your attacks by 25%. (agains undeads, elementals and bosses).
Inspire Excellence - Inspire Excellence is a song granting +2 competence bonus to all stats for you and your allies.
Improved shield bush - Enables the character to retain the shield bonus to its Armor Class when using Shield Bash, and grants a 20% chance to make a secondary Shield Bash while attacking with a melee weapon. (with 6 fighter can get 40% proc). Only problem with that build that you actually dont get a lot of STR for shield attack and damage (but still it brings some extra damage and Sense Weackness works on it too).
If someone is interested I can post end game item build.


Has anyone tested this or similar builds with Vanguard yet? What I'm wondering is:

Does Stunning Shield DC bonus apply to Frozen Fury & Spinning Ice?
Does Frozen Fury & Stunning Ice cause Follow Up to proc?

Also, does Know the Angles (Harper) stack with CKT?

I tried too. Not great, but it is something.
Stunning Shield DC applies bonus to freezing and stack with kensai.
Doubt about follow up.
Know the Angles stacks with CKT.

Khallaya
01-15-2015, 09:27 AM
I have been playing this build for awhile, alternating between 18/2 bard/rogue and 14bard/4fighter/2rogue. I personally think 4 fighter is better because of the HP bonus, prr, and enough feats to get cleave/GC without giving up SM/ISM.

I am considering dropping the rogue levels (which pains me) and going 2fvs so I can switch to Strength based + divine might + 6str from fighter stance. I might just end up rolling another one since I wouldn't need PDK for CKT anymore and I could get drow racial bonuses then + SR. Overall this build is a lot of fun, it does tail off a bit later on compared to other builds though. It's far and away the most fun character to level I have played since Batman when the level cap was still 10. I would go t5 swash to level, at least till epics. Coup de grace + fascinate with max cha is so ridiculously overpowered early on it's unfair. It works well with freeze on crit/single target freeze as well.

96th_Malice
02-01-2015, 09:20 AM
You lost me at PDK

sorry just a preference ..... I've stuck with elves since launch.

The build however sounds awesome .... Might have to try it as an elf. I don't care about solo-ability as I've got great guildies as support ( by that I mean ... Lots of space in their backpacks for my soul stone )

emptysands
11-04-2015, 04:15 PM
How useful in Cleave in these types of builds? Alternative is FOP/Precision.

I tend to think the Precision and maybe Grim Precision are going to be useful against undead/etc.

Note: Extend is a Quality of Life feat for me.

Varzil with Precision/FOP
15/3/2 Bard/Fighter/Rogue
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter . . . . 6. Bard. . . . . .11. Bard. . . . . .16. Bard
2. Rogue . . . . . 7. Bard. . . . . .12. Fighter. . . . 17. Bard
3. Bard . . . . . .8. Bard . . . . . 13. Bard . . . . . 18. Fighter
4. Bard . . . . . .9. Bard . . . . . 14. Bard . . . . . 19. Bard
5. Bard . . . . . 10. Bard . . . . . 15. Rogue . . . . .20. Bard


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ---- . . --------
Strength. . . . 10. . . .+6. . . .4: CHA
Dexterity . . . 14. . . .+6. . . .8: CHA
Constitution. . 14. . . .+6. . . 12: CHA
Intelligence. . 14. . . .+6. . . 16: CHA
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . .+6. . . 20: CHA
Charisma. . . . 18. . . .+6. . . 24: CHA
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: CHA

Skills
. . . . . F .R. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. F .B .B .R. B. B. F .B .B
. . . . . 1 .2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Perform . 2 . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. . .2 .1 . . 2. 1. . .1 .2 .23
Disable . . .5. ½. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12. ½. 1. 2 .1 .1 .23
Search. . 1 .1. . . . . .½ .1½ 2½ 1½ 3. 2. 1½ 1. 1½ 1. 1. ½. 1 .1½ 1. 23
Haggle. . . . . . .5 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 2. 2. . .2 .1 . . 1. 2. 23
UMD . . . 2 . . 1. 1. 2. 3. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1 .1 .1 . . 2. 1. . .1 .2 .23
Heal. . . 1 . . 1. . .1 . . 1. . .1 . . 1. . .1 . . . . . 2½ ½. 1. . .11
Spot. . . 1 .1. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. 1. 1. ½. ½. ½ .½ .1 . . 1. . . . ½. . .11
Balance . 2 . . . .1 .1 .2 .1 . . . . . . . . . .1 . . . . . . . . 1. .9
Open Lo . . .4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
Tumble. . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .20 11 .9 .9 .9 .9 10 10 10 10 10. 6 10 10 13 11 11 .7 11 11


Feats

.1. . . . : Single Weapon Fighting
.1 PDK. . : Precision
.1 Fighter: Shield Mastery
.3. . . . : Extend Spell
.6. . . . : Empower Healing Spell
.9. . . . : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
12. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
12 Fighter: Improved Critical: Piercing
15. . . . : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
18. . . . : Quicken Spell
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Force of Personality
26 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Inspire Excellence
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting


Or

Varzil with PA/Cleave
15/3/2 Bard/Fighter/Rogue
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter . . . . 6. Bard. . . . . .11. Bard. . . . . .16. Bard
2. Rogue . . . . . 7. Bard. . . . . .12. Fighter. . . . 17. Bard
3. Bard . . . . . .8. Bard . . . . . 13. Bard . . . . . 18. Fighter
4. Bard . . . . . .9. Bard . . . . . 14. Bard . . . . . 19. Bard
5. Bard . . . . . 10. Bard . . . . . 15. Rogue . . . . .20. Bard


Stats
. . . . . . . .34pt. . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .----. . .---- . . ---- . . --------
Strength. . . . 13 . . . 13. . . .+6. . . .4: CHA
Dexterity . . . 11 . . . 13. . . .+6. . . .8: CHA
Constitution. . 14 . . . 14. . . .+6. . . 12: CHA
Intelligence. . 12 . . . 12. . . .+6. . . 16: CHA
Wisdom. . . . . .8 . . . .8. . . .+6. . . 20: CHA
Charisma. . . . 18 . . . 18. . . .+6. . . 24: CHA
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28: CHA

Skills
. . . . . F .R. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. F .B .B .R. B. B. F .B .B
. . . . . 1 .2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Perform . 2 . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. . .2 .1 . . 2. 1. . .1 .2 .23
Disable . . .5. ½. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12. ½. 1. 2 .1 .1 .23
Haggle. . . . . . .5 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 2. 2. . .2 .1 . . 1. 2. 23
UMD . . . 2 . . 1. 1. 2. 3. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1 .1 .1 . . 2. 1. . .1 .2 .23
Search. . . .1. . . . . .½ .1½ 2½ 1½ 3. 2. 1½ 1. 2. . .1½ ½. 1 .1½ 1. 22
Heal. . . 1 . . 1. . .1 . . 1. . .1 . . 1. . .1 . . . . . 2. . .1 . . 10
Balance . 2 . . . .1 .1 .2 .1 . . . . . . . . . .1 . . . . . . . . . . 8
Open Lo . . .4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
Spot. . . . . . . . . . . . . .½ .½ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
Tumble. . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .16 10 .8 .8 .8 .8 .9 .9 .9 .9 .9 .5. 9. 9 12 10 10. 6 10 10


Feats

.1. . . . : Single Weapon Fighting
.1 PDK. . : Power Attack
.1 Fighter: Shield Mastery
.3. . . . : Cleave
.6. . . . : Empower Healing Spell
.9. . . . : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
12. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
12 Fighter: Improved Critical: Piercing
15. . . . : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
18. . . . : Quicken Spell
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Extend Spell
26 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Inspire Excellence
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting



Shared between the two builds.

Spells

Cure Light Wounds, Focusing Chant, Detect Secret Doors, <Any>
Blur, Cure Moderate Wounds, Invisibility, Rage
Cure Serious Wounds, Displacement, Good Hope, Haste
Cure Critical Wounds, Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Greater Heroism, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Mind Fog

Enhancements (80 AP)

Warchanter (40 AP)
Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism, Fighting Spirit
Inspired Bravery I, Rough and Ready III
Iced Edges III, Sprint Boost I
Ironskin Chant III, High Spirits I, Frozen Fury III, Charisma
Reckless Chant III, Northwind III, Charisma
Chant of Power III, Howl of the North, Spinning Ice III

Swashbuckler (11 AP)
Confidence, Swashbuckling
On Your Toes III, Tavern Shanties I
Deflect Arrows, Fast Movement
Skirmisher

Stalwart Defender (13 AP)
Toughness, Stalwart Defense
Durable Defense III, Stalwart Defensive Mastery II
Resilient Defense III
Tenacious Defense III

Harper Agent (9 AP)
Agent of Good I
Harper Enchantment, Awareness II
Versatile Adept I, Know the Angles III

Purple Dragon Knight (7 AP)
Damage Boost, Charisma
Cormyrean Knight Training, Improved Recovery


Destiny (24 AP) - Errors

Divine Crusader
Bane of Undeath, Endless Turning III, Charisma
Consecration III, Charisma
Sacred Ground, Charisma
Crusade, Charisma
Heavenly Presence, Celestial Champion

Twists of Fate (22 fate points)
Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
Legendary Tactics (Tier 1 Dreadnought)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)

RS-Makk
11-04-2015, 04:54 PM
I've been wondering the same myself..

How does the DPS of this type of build stack up with top DPS type builds (particularly interested in comparison vs a pure Twf ranger).

emptysands
11-04-2015, 09:57 PM
I've been wondering the same myself..

How does the DPS of this type of build stack up with top DPS type builds (particularly interested in comparison vs a pure Twf ranger).

Part of the pain with this build and the PDK/Humans bonus feat is that most of the needed feats are top heavy - requiring BAB or later class picks. Youl need either 13 STR or DEX at level one in order fit in the later "Improved/Greater" feats. Personally I prefer the Precision build as Power Attack seems like a waste of build points on an INT/CHA build.

If you didn't care about trap skills or evasion, then 15 Bard/4 Fighter/1 Wizard would give you 2 extra feats plus Magical Training and a very easy (drop Versatile Adept) to slot 1AP Cleave - Eldritch Strike. However, INT isn't really an issue in this build as you don't need the skill points. So drop Extend, keep Precision/FOP and take PA, Cleave and GC. Giving you 3 cleaves to aoe proc Northwind.

Gabrion
11-06-2015, 08:15 AM
Tell me if I'm crazy, but it seems like 14 Bard/4 Fighter/2 Rogue could be a good split as well.

This grants 1 extra feat from fighter, while also removing the option of Inspire Excellence, which while not a great thing, does mean you have another feat to play with. This makes it possible to pick up PA, Cleave, Great Cleave, Single Weapon Line, Shield Line, FOP, Precision, IC, OC, and still have room for two more feats (I'd probably go Quicken/Emp Healing, but Extend is a good quality of life option as well).

I also think keeping rogue 2 is even more attractive after this last balance pass. Fewer sources of MRR make evasion that much more appealing. Granting it's not a divine grace build that's going to be able to no fail reflex saves, but a bit of investment in that area should at least make evasion relevant. I can see how 15 Bard/4 Fighter/1 Wiz could work very well as far as picking up feats (while keeping inspire excellence), but for those willing to invest, I think evasion has become more valuable in this patch.

Lastly a question about PSWF. So it makes your attacks vorpal on 19-20. Has anyone compiled a list of abilities for which this is useful? Things that normally proc on a vorpal hit I mean. Are weapon abilities like Fiery Detonation (which normally proc on a 20) coded such that they benefit from PSWF?

emptysands
11-07-2015, 08:05 PM
Tell me if I'm crazy, but it seems like 14 Bard/4 Fighter/2 Rogue could be a good split as well.

This grants 1 extra feat from fighter, while also removing the option of Inspire Excellence, which while not a great thing, does mean you have another feat to play with. This makes it possible to pick up PA, Cleave, Great Cleave, Single Weapon Line, Shield Line, FOP, Precision, IC, OC, and still have room for two more feats (I'd probably go Quicken/Emp Healing, but Extend is a good quality of life option as well).


You lose Inspire Heroics as well. 12/6/2 maybe be better at that point. Level 5 spells aren't that useful - GH is easy to get on a clicky. 6 Fighter or 6 Rogue? 4/4? Haven't really studied it.




I also think keeping rogue 2 is even more attractive after this last balance pass. Fewer sources of MRR make evasion that much more appealing. Granting it's not a divine grace build that's going to be able to no fail reflex saves, but a bit of investment in that area should at least make evasion relevant. I can see how 15 Bard/4 Fighter/1 Wiz could work very well as far as picking up feats (while keeping inspire excellence), but for those willing to invest, I think evasion has become more valuable in this patch.

Lastly a question about PSWF. So it makes your attacks vorpal on 19-20. Has anyone compiled a list of abilities for which this is useful? Things that normally proc on a vorpal hit I mean. Are weapon abilities like Fiery Detonation (which normally proc on a 20) coded such that they benefit from PSWF?

That's a good question. I've got an old E/E/E T3 Alchemical Khopesh. I'll see how it goes when I get PSWF.

Gabrion
11-08-2015, 09:34 AM
You lose Inspire Heroics as well. 12/6/2 maybe be better at that point. Level 5 spells aren't that useful - GH is easy to get on a clicky. 6 Fighter or 6 Rogue? 4/4? Haven't really studied it.

You may be right, but I don't think going from 12 to 14 bard is without benefit. +1 inspire courage, a bit more duration on buffs (mostly displace, and probably the biggest thing is it does increase the DC of stuns and their duration. If taking more fighter levels, it would depend how much you get out of one more feat (or maybe if one wanted to try out the lvl 6 core overbalance or something).



That's a good question. I've got an old E/E/E T3 Alchemical Khopesh. I'll see how it goes when I get PSWF.

Would appreciate it!

unbongwah
11-12-2015, 03:42 PM
Since this thread got bumped, here's a build I did a while back for someone who wanted to use an eSOS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Sword_of_Shadow) and was lucky enough to have a Dun'Robar (http://ddowiki.com/page/Seal_of_House_Dun%27Robar) w/Stunning +10 as well. :eek: Note that this is/was intended as an ITR / Martial EPL farming build, not an endgame build; it loses a lot of DPS by switching to different greatswords. [eSOS crit spec should be 15-18/x3 19-20/x6 (Howl of the North + Overwhelming Crit + Devastating Crit). EDIT: regular greatswords are only 17-18/x2 19-20/x5.] It also requires Harper for Know the Angles, which boosts both dmg & Warchanter DCs.

Barb splash is for +10% run speed - which stacks w/SB Fast Movement and Expeditious Chant for a whoppin' +41% run speed on this build :cool: - and +6 dmg from Ravager Imp Power Atk enhs; this build doesn't use Rage so it can use defensive stance instead. It wears med armor w/Armorer so Tenacious Defense (+20% HPs) applies; this build predates the armor MRR nerf, but I think I would stick w/med for this class split.

eSOS Chanter
16/3/1 Bard/Fighter/Barbarian
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter 6. Bard 11. Bard 16. Fighter
2. Bard 7. Bard 12. Bard 17. Bard
3. Bard 8. Bard 13. Bard 18. Bard
4. Bard 9. Bard 14. Bard 19. Bard
5. Bard 10. Barbarian 15. Fighter 20. Bard


Stats
36pt Tome Level Up
---- ---- --------
Strength 13 +4 4: CHA
Dexterity 8 +4 8: CHA
Constitution 13 +4 12: CHA
Intelligence 16 +4 16: CHA
Wisdom 8 +4 20: CHA
Charisma 18 +4 24: CHA
28: CHA

Feats

1 : Insightful Reflexes
1 PDK : Cleave
1 Fighter: Power Attack
3 : Force of Personality
6 : Great Cleave
9 : Two Handed Fighting
12 : Improved Critical: Slashing
15 : Improved Two Handed Fighting
15 Fighter: Greater Two Handed Fighting
18 : Empower Healing Spell
21 Epic : Inspire Excellence
24 Epic : Overwhelming Critical
26 Destiny: Lasting Inspiration
27 Epic : Quicken Spell
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting


Enhancements (80 AP)

Purple Dragon Knight (3 AP)


Damage Boost

Cormyrean Knight Training



Warchanter (43 AP)


Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism, Fighting Spirit

Poetic Edda III, Enchant Weapon
Arcane Shield Chant III, Iced Edges III
Ironskin Chant III, Frozen Fury III
Reckless Chant III, Armorer, Northwind III
Expeditious Chant III, Chant of Power III, Howl of the North, Spinning Ice III



Swashbuckler (7 AP)


Confidence

On Your Toes I, Tavern Shanties III
Fast Movement



Stalwart Defender (13 AP)


Toughness, Stalwart Defense

Item Defense I, Durable Defense III
Resilient Defense III, Instinctive Defense I
Tenacious Defense III



Ravager (4 AP)


Furious Rage

Barbarian Power Attack III



Harper Agent (10 AP)


Agent of Good I

Harper Enchantment, Weathered Traveler II
Versatile Adept II, Know the Angles III




Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought


Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost III
Momentum Swing III, Imp. Power Attack
Lay Waste, Critical Damage I, Haste Boost III
Volcano's Edge
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz

Twists of Fate (22 fate points)


Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)

EDIT: I took PTHF instead of PTWF because this build is meant to be a big-time Cleave-r with Cleave / Gt Cleave / Lay Waste / Spinning Ice, which benefit from extra glancing blows but not doublestrike.

emptysands
11-12-2015, 11:29 PM
Since this thread got bumped, here's a build I did a while back for someone who wanted to use an eSOS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Sword_of_Shadow) and was lucky enough to have a Dun'Robar (http://ddowiki.com/page/Seal_of_House_Dun%27Robar) w/Stunning +10 as well. :eek: Note that this is/was intended as an ITR / EPL farming build, not an endgame build; it loses a lot of DPS by switching to different greatswords. [eSOS crit spec should be 15-18/x3 19-20/x6 (Howl of the North +Overwhelming Crit + Devastating Crit).] It also requires Harper for Know the Angles, which boosts both dmg & Warchanter DCs.

Barb splash is for +10% run speed - which stacks w/SB Fast Movement and Expeditious Chant for a whoppin' +41% run speed on this build :cool: - and +6 dmg from Ravager Imp Power Atk enhs; this build doesn't use Rage so it can use defensive stance instead. It wears med armor w/Armorer so Tenacious Defense (+20% HPs) applies; this build predates the armor MRR nerf, but I think I would stick w/med for this class split.

...

EDIT: I took PTHF instead of PTWF because this build is meant to be a big-time Cleave-r with Cleave / Gt Cleave / Lay Waste / Spinning Ice, which benefit from extra glancing blows but not doublestrike.

Nice build. I've got a couple eSOS toons that I might use this for if I hang around long enough.

PTWF might be better than Lasting Inspiration for personal dps? Potentially 5% more CCs as well?

I've got a pair of the old version of madstones that I use for DEX and potency. I find the stance useful to stop me getting madstoned.

Xandez
11-13-2015, 01:27 AM
Howdy guys and gals and thx to the OP for the inspiration for this kind of build... maybe not the original one, but the one i got my eyes on first in these forums.

I had a INT based swashbuckler trapper build i played (12 bard 6 fighter 2 rogue, PDK) and just wanted to test this out for fun, so i made it a swashbuckling freezing warchanter... Didnt do any LR:s (yet), so i still have int based (luckily KtA helps, a lot).

Anyway, i've been having loads of fun with this, now lvl 25 and even i dont have full cha build it seems to work just fine in EN and even in EH (for now atleast).

I think i have a TF shortsword lying in my bank somewhere (only T2 thou... no raidin for me :P) so maybe i'll try and LR to CHA based build with the CKT and all that fancy stuff too...
So far i've been using a weapon which i've wanted to try out for long... The Foresters Brush Hook... I like it a lot, only have the epic hard version, but still... Running in LD destiny has also been fun compared to the usual DC i used to do regularly, the big crits look very nice!! :D

++Xan

garzan123
02-03-2016, 11:30 AM
On the 12-6-2 build twf variant.. Could u use ranger over fighter since u get the twf feats..please let me know if its good bad or crappy!!! Lol..love the build..mine is lvl 21..ty..

dethdukk
02-22-2016, 03:03 PM
I'm interested in trying this build, but I'm curious if it's viable in LE quests. I know that LE buffs the fortitude saves of mobs a lot, or so I've heard from Necro DC builds... does this mean that the freeze attacks can't hit the breakpoints needed to get past saves?

adrian69
02-22-2016, 06:14 PM
I'm interested in trying this build, but I'm curious if it's viable in LE quests. I know that LE buffs the fortitude saves of mobs a lot, or so I've heard from Necro DC builds... does this mean that the freeze attacks can't hit the breakpoints needed to get past saves?

The DC isn't very far off from Dire Charge really, and part of it works on vorpal, so that's an upside. The downside to necro DCs is that some of them all require spell penetration, so I am sure they have more trouble hitting DCs, however, this doesn't. I did this build, well, something similar last month. I didn't run any LE, but I had a DC of 83-85. And I was hitting in LN and LH over 85% of the time probably. It is a fun build to play, and I'm sure it'll hit in LE a reasonable amount.

dethdukk
02-23-2016, 10:13 AM
The DC isn't very far off from Dire Charge really, and part of it works on vorpal, so that's an upside. The downside to necro DCs is that some of them all require spell penetration, so I am sure they have more trouble hitting DCs, however, this doesn't. I did this build, well, something similar last month. I didn't run any LE, but I had a DC of 83-85. And I was hitting in LN and LH over 85% of the time probably. It is a fun build to play, and I'm sure it'll hit in LE a reasonable amount.

I appreciate the info! I'm working on a rework of the build, focused on getting higher tactics... Right now it's able to hit 95 dc-ish, but at the cost of some other benefits. Honestly looks like I'm just going to have to take the build into LE quests and see where the DC breakpoints are by putting on different levels of stunning gear and just spamming stun on mobs.

If you don't mind, would you post how you got to 85 DC? I'd like to know if I'm missing anything from my own build that I should be including.

kendo
02-25-2016, 12:40 AM
I appreciate the info! I'm working on a rework of the build, focused on getting higher tactics... Right now it's able to hit 95 dc-ish, but at the cost of some other benefits. Honestly looks like I'm just going to have to take the build into LE quests and see where the DC breakpoints are by putting on different levels of stunning gear and just spamming stun on mobs.

If you don't mind, would you post how you got to 85 DC? I'd like to know if I'm missing anything from my own build that I should be including.

looking forward to seeing your results. trying to plan out some TRs that can cross off both an iconic and class PL and this looked like a fun way to check off PDK and Bard from the list.

dethdukk
02-25-2016, 04:12 PM
This is the basic build I came up with. Starting points assume you are a double TR with a +1 dex tome. If you're a first life, drop 2 points from Int, and buy a +1 dex tome... Or put a level into it.

Assuming you're at level 20 with decent gear (no tomes, +10 stun item, +5 combat mastery, +6 int and charisma items, +6 tactics from LD twisted in) you'll have a stun of about 55. With +5 tomes, stun dc 60+. You also have access to the swashbuckler scathing words, which reduces fort saves in an AoE around you, so effective dc 63+.

When you get to level 30, you'll have a stun DC of between 80-100 depending on gear, etc... Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be possible to get past 100 dc with the freeze effects, due to charisma not having the same kind of boosts that strength has access to (rage, defender stance, power surge, etc, and you have to go pretty far into fighter to get access to the good tactic DC's feats, which removes a lot of your self-buff and self-healing capabilities, as well as losing some DC and duration on freezes from bard levels.

You can take one more fighter level for a free feat, which you'll probably spend on the +2 tactics feat, but you lose inspire excellence which is +2 or more DC anyways, as well as more hp and saves.

Now, after all that bad news, the good news is that this build should still be able to no fail freeze any EE content, and possibly even up to LH. It can perma-CC a pack of mobs for around 18 seconds when it gets to level 30 (dire charge 6 seconds, spinning ice 7 seconds, dire charge 6 seconds) and stun a single mob permanently. Damage should be pretty good, nothing compared to a full DPS build, but since you're hitting helpless mobs 24/7, if you're in legendary dreadnought with sense weakness twisted in, you'll be getting +80% to your damage on top of the standard helpless damage against everything but rednamed. Against rednamed, well... you have haste boost, damage boost, displace, and you can self-heal pretty efficiently of course.

On top of all that, you have great trapping abilities, second only to full int builds. With a search and disable item to swap in, you should be able to handle any traps you want, as well as have an almost no-fail evasion save.



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.29.001
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 30 Chaotic Good Purple Dragon Knight Male
(3 Fighter \ 2 Rogue \ 15 Bard \ 10 Epic)
Hit Points: 408
Spell Points: 865
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 24
Will: 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 30)
Strength 8 13
Dexterity 12 17
Constitution 14 20
Intelligence 16 21
Wisdom 8 13
Charisma 18 32

Tomes Used
+5 Tome of Strength used at level 1 \par +5 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1 \par +5 Tome of Constitution used at level 1 \par +5 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1 \par +5 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1 \par +5 Tome of Charisma used at level 1 \par
Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 30)
Balance 2 36
Bluff 0 21
Concentration 2 38
Diplomacy 2 41
Disable Device n/a 38
Haggle 0 21
Heal 0 11
Hide 0 13
Intimidate 0 21
Jump 0 11
Listen 0 11
Move Silently 0 13
Open Lock n/a 24
Perform 2 44
Repair 0 15
Search 2 38
Spellcraft 0 15
Spot 0 11
Swim 0 11
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 2 44

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Human Bonus) Shield Mastery
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Single Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 4 (Bard)


Level 5 (Bard)


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Precision


Level 7 (Bard)


Level 8 (Bard)


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Single Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Bard)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 13 (Bard)


Level 14 (Bard)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Single Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Bard)


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 19 (Bard)


Level 20 (Bard)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Inspire Excellence


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Martial Sphere: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Damage Reduction


Level 28 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Arcane Sphere: Lasting Inspiration


Level 29 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Martial Sphere: Dire Charge


Level 30 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Bulwark of Defense
Feat: (Legendary) Scion of the Astral Plane
Enhancement: Purple Dragon Knight - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Purple Dragon Knight - Cormyrean Knight Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Skaldic Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Weapon Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - The Poetic Edda (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Rough and Ready (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Rough and Ready (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Rough and Ready (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Iced Edges (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Iced Edges (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Iced Edges (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Action Boost: Sprint (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Ironskin Chant (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Ironskin Chant (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Frozen Fury (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Frozen Fury (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Frozen Fury (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Reckless Chant (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Reckless Chant (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Northwind (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Northwind (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Northwind (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Howl of the North (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Spinning Ice (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Spinning Ice (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Spinning Ice (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Item Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Item Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Confidence (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Swashbuckling (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - On Your Toes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - On Your Toes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - On Your Toes (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Scathing Words (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Scathing Words (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Scathing Words (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Fast Movement (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Skirmisher (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Harper Agent - Agent of Good (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Harper Agent - Harper Enchantment (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Harper Agent - Traveler's Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Harper Agent - Traveler's Toughness (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Harper Agent - Know The Angles (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Harper Agent - Know The Angles (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Harper Agent - Know The Angles (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Focus: Light Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)




Extend Spell, Lasting Inspiration, Epic DRR, and Bulwark of defense are all just preference feats, and can be swapped out for whatever other feats you want. Enhancements are, sadly, pretty much set in stone. There's up to 10 points you can take out of Kensai, but you'll lose 3 action boosts and/or haste boost.

Precision is also a preference feat, if you prefer power attack/cleaves, you can move the 4 points from dex into str, and replace precision with power attack. The cleaves are a bit harder to fit in, you'd need to drop both metamagics or move some feats into your epic feat slots. Good news is a lot of the epic feats in there aren't absolutely necessary, so it may be worthwhile to do that.

In general I'd run this build in Legendary dreadnought, with Sense Weakness, Legendary Shield Training, and Cocoon twisted in.

eumate
03-02-2016, 06:21 AM
Any Swashblucker/Stalwart combo will work for soloing most EE contents (with decent gear ofc).

I suggest human 12 brd/6 ftr/ 2 fvs STR based.
Build is pretty straight forward:
ignore spellsinger and warchanter, stalwart for +3 saves/25PRR/+6 str/20%HP/shield expertise (+3 to weapon)
swashbuckler all the way up to expoit-thread the needle-coup
warpriest only for divine might
kensei to haste boost
human only for damage boost and HA if you can fit

Features: stunning blow, shield masteries, swf line, empower healing, IC, focus and weapon spec
Epic feats: OC, quicken, ptwf, epic dr, pswf, fount of life or anything else, scion on feywild and your choice at 30.
Best weapons: 1)skullsmasher (best damage, lvl12-25, can use pulverize in LD) 2) forester's brush hook with feat (best critical profile, dr breaking) 3)balizarde
Main destiny (all rounder): divine crusader
secondary destiny (higher dps, lower survivability): LD
Twists: Cocoon, Aria, legendary shield mastery

dethdukk
03-02-2016, 11:44 AM
Any Swashblucker/Stalwart combo will work for soloing most EE contents (with decent gear ofc).

I suggest human 12 brd/6 ftr/ 2 fvs STR based.
Build is pretty straight forward:
ignore spellsinger and warchanter, stalwart for +3 saves/25PRR/+6 str/20%HP/shield expertise (+3 to weapon)
swashbuckler all the way up to expoit-thread the needle-coup
warpriest only for divine might
kensei to haste boost
human only for damage boost and HA if you can fit

Features: stunning blow, shield masteries, swf line, empower healing, IC, focus and weapon spec
Epic feats: OC, quicken, ptwf, epic dr, pswf, fount of life or anything else, scion on feywild and your choice at 30.
Best weapons: 1)skullsmasher (best damage, lvl12-25, can use pulverize in LD) 2) forester's brush hook with feat (best critical profile, dr breaking) 3)balizarde
Main destiny (all rounder): divine crusader
secondary destiny (higher dps, lower survivability): LD
Twists: Cocoon, Aria, legendary shield mastery

This isn't exactly a swashbuckling thread, but... I think your build is losing out of a ton of benefits.
-Going FVS for the sole benefit of picking up divine might isn't worth it (in my opinion) when you can pick up KtA out of harper and get more benefit out of it.
-You lose the option of going rogue, which means you don't get evasion, sneak attack dice, and trapping abilities.
-Because you only have 12 bard, you don't get level 5 spells, so you can't cast greater heroism.
-going 6 fighter over 4 fighter's only benefit is access to Tier 3 cores (which you won't use anyways) and a feat
-you don't have (or at least don't have listed) power attack and cleaves, or precision. I personally prefer precision, but if you're going with a Str build there's no reason not to have power attack and both cleaves.

My recommended split if you're going swashbuckler and don't care about getting Inspire Excellence is Int or Dex based 13 bard/4 fighter/3 rogue. This gets you trapping skills, 2d6 sneak attack, access to everything you care about in stalwart, evasion, and level 5 bard spells. You lose one feat from fighter, but you don't need to get to T4 stalwart just for that +3 strength.

If you want to stay strength, you could drop 1 level fvs and 2 levels fighter to get bard to level 15, getting you access to both inspire excellence and greater heroism at the cost of one feat from fighter.

Edit: Did some math just to see. A full Str/Charisma build with good gear will do almost exactly the same damage as a full Int build with equal gear. Biggest difference will be that a str build will have better tactics dcs than an int build.

adrian69
03-10-2016, 04:05 AM
I appreciate the info! I'm working on a rework of the build, focused on getting higher tactics... Right now it's able to hit 95 dc-ish, but at the cost of some other benefits. Honestly looks like I'm just going to have to take the build into LE quests and see where the DC breakpoints are by putting on different levels of stunning gear and just spamming stun on mobs.

If you don't mind, would you post how you got to 85 DC? I'd like to know if I'm missing anything from my own build that I should be including.

God, it's been almost 2 months since I TRd out of it. I was going for my last Bard PL at the time. I also have TBI and do not remember what things are called without looking them up, and I didn't.

Ok,

10 character level
31 From Charisma (72 charisma--don't ask me. I was just excited to get it that high with new +5 insight items).
3 Ftr PLs
12 Item
5 Insight Item
10 PDK
10-14 Frozen Fury/Spinning Ice

This also means Dire Charge DC is 90. There are other ways to get this a little higher I think. You can get +6 more from LD for starters.

dethdukk
03-10-2016, 10:30 AM
God, it's been almost 2 months since I TRd out of it. I was going for my last Bard PL at the time. I also have TBI and do not remember what things are called without looking them up, and I didn't.

Ok,

10 character level
31 From Charisma (72 charisma--don't ask me. I was just excited to get it that high with new +5 insight items).
3 Ftr PLs
12 Item
5 Insight Item
10 PDK
10-14 Frozen Fury/Spinning Ice

This also means Dire Charge DC is 90. There are other ways to get this a little higher I think. You can get +6 more from LD for starters.

That's about where I'm at when I try to calculate it... main difference is that your charisma is much higher than I was getting to, you're assuming pure bard PDK (used a +1 lesser?) and you don't have Know the Angles.

My stun dc that I got to was:

Frozen Fury
10 Base
16 Item
5 Insight item
7 bard levels
3 fighter PLs
26 stat mod
8 PDK
9 KtA
6 LD tactics
4 Legendary Scion Feat
2 Destiny Tactics Feat
1 Ship buff

97 Total, compared to your 81...

But if I add the stuff you're missing/could easily get, the ship buff, scion legendary feat, destiny feat, LD tactics twist, and 16 stun item, you get +17 more, so you would have 98. Depending on how you've got your AP spent, you could probably pick up KtA from Harper for another 8-10 easily, and you have access to scathing words for a no save -3 to fortitude saves, so an effective dc of 110 on Frozen Fury. I'm fairly sure that's a guaranteed stun in legendary elite, and you might be able to drop some of the more expensive picks (like the destiny and legendary feats for 6 less dc).

I may have to try a pure bard PDK for my epic past lives gathering build. I have all the gear for a full stunning build, and it looks like a pure bard can hit higher numbers than a bard/fighter/rogue split... though its possible that your insanely high charisma is making the biggest difference.

Bardet
03-13-2016, 07:48 AM
Hi, I liked this build and made a fresh new PDK iconic to try it... and it can't be done. For some reason, Warchanter tree is not available in the enhancements trees, You just have the 3 Fighter ones and Swashbuckler (And Harper agent in my case)

Is there a way to fix this so I can play this build with a first life PDK?

Thanks!

dethdukk
03-13-2016, 09:50 AM
Hi, I liked this build and made a fresh new PDK iconic to try it... and it can't be done. For some reason, Warchanter tree is not available in the enhancements trees, You just have the 3 Fighter ones and Swashbuckler (And Harper agent in my case)

Is there a way to fix this so I can play this build with a first life PDK?

Thanks!

At the bottom of each tree, where it says what the tree is, its a drop-down. You can use that drop-down to change what enhancement trees you have available.

xaxaeb
03-27-2016, 09:45 PM
I'm considering a similar build:
16 bard / 4 fighter PDK. I was initially debating 3ftr vs 4ftr. But Bard 17 doesn't really give you anything over Bard 16. High level spells are gonna be useless on a melee build. So it's losing some SP and song duration for an extra feat.
Has nobody considered feats Tactical Training (+2 tactical DCs) and Tactician (+2 tactical DCs)?
4 fighter levels gives you 3 bonus feats (6 levels in OP is another +1 feat). That's really enough to accommodate Tactical Training. And Tactician replaces either Lasting Inspiration or Perfect SWF/TWF/THF. I think +2 to DC of your freezes is better than +5% glancing damage.

Thoughts/comments?

HastyPudding
04-16-2016, 10:46 AM
I'm considering a similar build:
16 bard / 4 fighter PDK. I was initially debating 3ftr vs 4ftr. But Bard 17 doesn't really give you anything over Bard 16. High level spells are gonna be useless on a melee build. So it's losing some SP and song duration for an extra feat.
Has nobody considered feats Tactical Training (+2 tactical DCs) and Tactician (+2 tactical DCs)?
4 fighter levels gives you 3 bonus feats (6 levels in OP is another +1 feat). That's really enough to accommodate Tactical Training. And Tactician replaces either Lasting Inspiration or Perfect SWF/TWF/THF. I think +2 to DC of your freezes is better than +5% glancing damage.

Thoughts/comments?

I was thinking about this, too. 16 bard/4 fighter PDK using greatswords with charisma to attack/damage. I'm not very good with the whole feats/BAB planning thing, especially on a multiclass, though (I play mostly casters).

Also: warchanter gains medium armor proficiency without arcane spell failiure for bard spells. If you have this enhancement and have heavy armor proficiency from fighter levels, does that mean you still need the whole 30-45% arcane spell failure reduction or is it just 15-20% or so required to negate the effect?

unbongwah
04-16-2016, 01:23 PM
16 bard / 4 fighter PDK. I was initially debating 3ftr vs 4ftr. But Bard 17 doesn't really give you anything over Bard 16. High level spells are gonna be useless on a melee build. So it's losing some SP and song duration for an extra feat.
Has nobody considered feats Tactical Training (+2 tactical DCs) and Tactician (+2 tactical DCs)?
Unless you really need the +2 DCs, I prefer the 16 / ftr 3 / barb 1 split here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446859-The-Icebreaker-A-Freezing-Warchanter-Bard?p=5722514&viewfull=1#post5722514): +10% run speed and +6 dmg from Imp Power Atk.

garzan123
04-19-2016, 10:36 PM
On the 12-6-2 build twf variant.. Could u use ranger over fighter since u get the twf feats..please let me know if its good bad or crappy!!! Lol..love the build..mine is lvl 21..ty..

Anyone? Would ranger over fighter be better for two weapon variant

unbongwah
04-20-2016, 08:49 AM
Rgr 6 pros: free ranged feats inc. Manyshot; Tempest is strong
Ftr 6 pros: defensive stance; DC bonuses in Kensei & Vanguard; Kensei due for a buff in U31 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/474316-Fighter-Kensei-upcoming-changes-%28and-SD-tweaks%29) (knock on wood)

Main drawback to rgr is not getting to have both Dance of Death + Freezing Ice. I personally think the SWF version of this build is strongest (my eSOS variant notwithstanding) b/c Swashbuckler & WC DPS bonuses stack.

Kantia
04-21-2016, 08:20 PM
If you take more levels of fighter, and fewer levels of bard, you can use the free fighter feats to take the tactical DC feats.
With the changes to Kensei coming up, the level 12 core is an action boost for +8 to all stats. This means that if you wanted to go as heavy as 12 fighter, you would lose the bard-level DC boosts (lose 9 DC, from 15 to 6 bard), and gain +4 and +6 tactical feats (gain 10 DC), and have the crit multiplier from level 6 core (doesn't stack with swashbuckling multiplier tho), and the action boost +8 to all stats (so +4 DC from str and +1 or +2 from Cha, depending on current stats) when needed.

I'm interested in trying to jam swashbuckling DPS, fighter stuns and warchanter stuns onto a single character, and I think I can do it with 12 fighter, 6 bard. The last two could be more fighter, or bard, or barbarian, or rogue for Evasion, or whatever I guess. A DPS focus would lead to empty-hand swashbuckling with extra doublestrike, and weapon spec/focus feats; while a more defensive focus would lead to shield mastery and a buckler. I'd love to fit in defensive stance, but what to take out?

This is certainly inspired heavily by the Icebreaker, but is it so different it should be in a different thread? Or should I just throw away the idea as it's too fragile? Is the duration reduction on the freezes (dependant on bard level) going to be too short to be useful?



Stunning Freezing Kensei
14/6 Fighter/Bard
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter 6. Bard 11. Fighter 16. Fighter
2. Fighter 7. Bard 12. Fighter 17. Fighter
3. Bard 8. Bard 13. Fighter 18. Fighter
4. Bard 9. Fighter 14. Fighter 19. Fighter
5. Bard 10. Fighter 15. Fighter 20. Fighter


Stats
32pt Level Up
---- --------
Strength 14 4: CHA
Dexterity 8 8: CHA
Constitution 14 12: CHA
Intelligence 12 16: CHA
Wisdom 8 20: CHA
Charisma 18 24: CHA
28: CHA

Skills
F F B B B B B B F F F F F F F F F F F F
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
------------------------------------------------------------
Intim 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
UMD 2 2 3 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
Perform 2 2 3 1 1 1 1 ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ 16
Jump 3 1 3 3 1 1 12
Balance 2 4 1 1 1 1 1 ½ 11½
------------------------------------------------------------
16 4 8 8 8 8 8 7 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
16 4 8 8 8 8 8 8 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4


Feats

1 : Power Attack
1 PDK : Cleave
1 Fighter: Single Weapon Fighting
2 Fighter: Stunning Blow
3 : Force of Personality
6 : Great Cleave
9 : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
10 Fighter: Improved Critical: Piercing
12 : Maximize Spell
12 Fighter: Weapon Focus: Piercing
14 Fighter: Greater Single Weapon Fighting
15 : Power Critical
16 Fighter: Weapon Specialization: Piercing
18 : Greater Weapon Specialization: Piercing
18 Fighter: Tactical Combatant
20 Fighter: Tactical Mastery
21 Epic : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic : Burst of Glacial Wrath
26 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
27 Epic : Blinding Speed
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic :
30 Legend : Scion of: Astral Plane


Enhancements (80 AP)

Warchanter (36 AP)
• Skaldic: Rage, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism
1. Poetic Edda II, Enchant Weapon, Rough and Ready III
2. Iced Edges III
3. Ironskin Chant III, Frozen Fury III, Charisma
4. Reckless Chant III, Northwind III
5. Howl of the North, Spinning Ice III, Kingly Recovery I

Kensei (23 AP)
• Kensei Focus: Light Blades, Spiritual Bond, Strike with No Thought, Power Surge
1. Extra Action Boost III, Weapon Group Specialization
2. Tactics III, Weapon Group Specialization
3. Critical Accuracy III

Swashbuckler (16 AP)
• Confidence, Swashbuckling, Uncanny Dodge
1. Blow By Blow: Melee III, Tavern Shanties III
2. Double Strike Boost III
3. Dashing Scoundrel

Purple Dragon Knight (5 AP)
• Damage Boost
1. Cormyrean Knight Training, Improved Recovery

Leveling Guide
1. (Bank 4 AP)
2. (Bank 8 AP)
3. (Bank 12 AP)
4. (Bank 16 AP)
5. (Bank 20 AP)
6. (Bank 24 AP)
7. (Bank 28 AP)
8. (Bank 32 AP)
9. (Bank 36 AP)
10. (Bank 40 AP)
11. (Bank 44 AP)
12. (Bank 48 AP)
13. (Bank 52 AP)
14. PDK0 Damage Boost; PDK1 Cormyrean Knight Training; PDK1 Improved Recovery
15. Reset All Trees
• Purple Dragon Knight: Damage Boost
1. Cormyrean Knight Training, Improved Recovery
• Swashbuckler: Confidence, Swashbuckling
1. Blow By Blow: Melee III, Tavern Shanties III
2. Double Strike Boost III
• Warchanter: Skaldic: Rage, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism
1. Poetic Edda III, Enchant Weapon, Rough and Ready III
2. Iced Edges III
3. Ironskin Chant III, Frozen Fury III, Charisma
4. Reckless Chant III, Northwind III
5. Howl of the North, Spinning Ice III
• Kensei: Kensei Focus: Light Blades
1. Extra Action Boost I, Weapon Group Specialization
16. Ken1 Extra Action Boost II, III
17. Ken2 Tactics I, II
18. Ken2 Tactics III; Ken2 Weapon Group Specialization
19. Ken3 Critical Accuracy I, II, III; Ken0 Spiritual Bond
20. Ken0 Strike with No Thought; Ken0 Power Surge; Swa3 Dashing Scoundrel; Swa0 Uncanny Dodge


Destiny (24 AP)

Divine Crusader
1. Interrogation, Purge the Wicked, Charisma
2. Consecration III, Charisma
3. Stand and Be Judged III, Sacred Ground, Charisma
4. No Regret, Crusade
5. Celestial Champion
6. Strike Down

Twists of Fate (25 fate points)
1. Legendary Tactics (Tier 1 Dreadnought)
2. Extra Action Boost (Tier 1 Dreadnought)
3. Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury)
4. Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)

unbongwah
04-22-2016, 09:37 AM
If you take more levels of fighter, and fewer levels of bard, you can use the free fighter feats to take the tactical DC feats.
The drawback to this approach is Freezing Ice duration is based on # of bard lvls; with ftr 14 / bard 6, your DCs go up, but freeze duration goes down to 3 secs vs 8 secs on bard 16 build. :(

I'd considered this approach when the ftr tactics feats first came up; but unless you really need the DC boosts, you're better off with more bard lvls IMO.

HastyPudding
05-01-2016, 12:03 PM
The drawback to this approach is Freezing Ice duration is based on # of bard lvls; with ftr 14 / bard 6, your DCs go up, but freeze duration goes down to 3 secs vs 8 secs on bard 16 build. :(

I'd considered this approach when the ftr tactics feats first came up; but unless you really need the DC boosts, you're better off with more bard lvls IMO.

Bard levels also give song and spell duration. Nobody likes a 3 minute inspire courage.

I'm currently enjoying my 16 bard/4 fighter warchanter. It's very satisfying to hear the crash of frozen mobs as their corpses fall to the ground.

kendo
06-11-2016, 07:34 AM
did the fighter pass, new items make for any major changes to this build? haven't had a chance to try it out but it always looked like it could be fun

unbongwah
06-11-2016, 12:00 PM
did the fighter pass, new items make for any major changes to this build? haven't had a chance to try it out but it always looked like it could be fun
If you're going with the THF or TWF version (as opposed to the SWF Swashbuckler), there's good incentive to do bard 14 / ftr 6. Kensei got some significant DPS bonuses which would help out a lot if using, say, greatswords or longswords. Something like T5 WC, T4 Kensei (Strike w/No Thought + Opportunity Atk are the must-haves), the rest split between SD, PDK, SB, and Harper (if you have it). The main drawback to a deeper MC, as I said before, is the duration on Freezing Ice goes down with the # of bard lvls, so you still want majority-bard, IMO.

I took a stab at STR-based bard 12 / ftr 6 / barb 2 using falchions here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/474824-THF-vs-SWF-bards?p=5825655&viewfull=1#post5825655). Switching it to CHA-based PDK using gtswords like this build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446859-The-Icebreaker-A-Freezing-Warchanter-Bard?p=5722514&viewfull=1#post5722514) would not be hard: lower melee DPS but with reliable Freeze atks is a reasonable tradeoff, IMO.

kendo
06-11-2016, 01:54 PM
If you're going with the THF or TWF version (as opposed to the SWF Swashbuckler), there's good incentive to do bard 14 / ftr 6. Kensei got some significant DPS bonuses which would help out a lot if using, say, greatswords or longswords. Something like T5 WC, T4 Kensei (Strike w/No Thought + Opportunity Atk are the must-haves), the rest split between SD, PDK, SB, and Harper (if you have it). The main drawback to a deeper MC, as I said before, is the duration on Freezing Ice goes down with the # of bard lvls, so you still want majority-bard, IMO.

I took a stab at STR-based bard 12 / ftr 6 / barb 2 using falchions here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/474824-THF-vs-SWF-bards?p=5825655&viewfull=1#post5825655). Switching it to CHA-based PDK using gtswords like this build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446859-The-Icebreaker-A-Freezing-Warchanter-Bard?p=5722514&viewfull=1#post5722514) would not be hard: lower melee DPS but with reliable Freeze atks is a reasonable tradeoff, IMO.

thank you, until U31, it looked like the overall consensus was to go 16 Bard and then 4 Ftr or 3 Ftr + 1 Barb. but some of the Kensei changes looked interesting.

if going with SWF Swashbuckler, would you still go 16/4 split? enhancements seem a bit tighter in that line to be able to transfer enough to Kensei

unbongwah
06-11-2016, 05:42 PM
if going with SWF Swashbuckler, would you still go 16/4 split? enhancements seem a bit tighter in that line to be able to transfer enough to Kensei
Not sure, but Strike w/No Thought doesn't stack with Swashbuckling unless you use handaxes or light picks, neither of which works with CKT; and without CKT, this build loses the main advantage to PDK over regular human. So I guess it depends on whether you're going for T4 Kensei?

One interesting suggestion I saw before: a 14/6 split going for SWF w/b.swords - specifically eSpinal Tap (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Spinal_Tap); note it has same crit profile as a khopesh plus other DPS goodies but would also get glancing blows. See, there's an interesting quirk to Skirmisher, namely the "you may use a Buckler and still benefit from the Single Weapon Fighting line of feats" effect does NOT rely on Swashbuckling being active, which means it will apply with any 1H melee weapon. You don't get Swashbuckling bonuses, but the silver lining is you are no longer restricted to light armor either; so you can use med armor instead for better PRR. And since it's a b.sword, it benefits from CKT.

So the idea was: 11 APs SB (Skirmisher), 11 APs Kensei (SwNT), 13 APs SD (Tenacious Def), 3 APs PDK, 6-8 APs Harper (KtA), with the rest into WC (Freezing Ice etc).

unbongwah
06-11-2016, 08:07 PM
First stab at bard 14 / ftr 6 split based on this build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446859-The-Icebreaker-A-Freezing-Warchanter-Bard?p=5722514&viewfull=1#post5722514):

PDK eSOS Icebreaker
14/6 Bard/Fighter
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter 6. Bard 11. Bard 16. Bard
2. Bard 7. Fighter 12. Bard 17. Bard
3. Bard 8. Fighter 13. Fighter 18. Bard
4. Bard 9. Bard 14. Bard 19. Bard
5. Bard 10. Fighter 15. Fighter 20. Bard


Stats
36pt Tome Level Up
---- ---- --------
Strength 13 +4 4: CHA
Dexterity 8 +4 8: CHA
Constitution 13 +4 12: CHA
Intelligence 16 +4 16: CHA
Wisdom 8 +4 20: CHA
Charisma 18 +4 24: CHA
28: CHA

Feats

1 : Cleave
1 PDK : Insightful Reflexes
1 Fighter: Power Attack
3 : Quicken Spell
6 : Great Cleave
7 Fighter: Two Handed Fighting
9 : Weapon Focus: Slashing
10 Fighter: Improved Critical: Slashing
12 : Weapon Specialization: Slashing
15 : Improved Two Handed Fighting
15 Fighter: Greater Two Handed Fighting
18 : Empower Healing Spell
21 Epic : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic : Bulwark of Defense OR Force of Personality
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting
27 Epic : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting OR Lasting Inspiration
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic :
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea OR Plane of Earth


Enhancements (80 AP)

Warchanter (35 AP)


Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism


Enchant Weapon, Rough and Ready III
Arcane Shield Chant III, Iced Edges III
Ironskin Chant III, Frozen Fury III
Reckless Chant II, Armorer, Northwind III
Howl of the North, Spinning Ice III



Kensei (22 AP)


Kensei Focus: Heavy Blades, Spiritual Bond, Strike with No Thought


Extra Action Boost III, Weapon Group Specialization, Haste Boost III
Weapon Group Specialization, Ascetic Training: Conditioning I
Weapon Group Specialization, Shattering Strike I
Opportunity Attack



Stalwart Defender (13 AP)


Toughness, Stalwart Defense


Item Defense I, Durable Defense III
Resilient Defense III, Instinctive Defense I
Tenacious Defense III



Harper Agent (7 AP)


Agent of Good I


Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness II
Know the Angles II



Purple Dragon Knight (3 AP)


Damage Boost


Cormyrean Knight Training



Leveling Guide


PDK0 Damage Boost; PDK1 Cormyrean Knight Training; Ken0 Kensei Focus: Heavy Blades
War0 Skaldic: Constitution; War1 Enchant Weapon; War1 Rough and Ready I
War1 Rough and Ready II, III; War2 Iced Edges I, II
War2 Iced Edges III; War0 Weapon Training; War3 Ironskin Chant I, II
War3 Ironskin Chant III; War3 Frozen Fury I, II, III
War2 Arcane Shield Chant I, II, III
Ken1 Weapon Group Specialization; Ken1 Haste Boost I, II, III
Ken0 Spiritual Bond; Ken2 Ascetic Training: Conditioning I; (Bank 2 AP)
Ken2 Weapon Group Specialization; War0 Song of Heroism; War4 Armorer
War4 Northwind I, II
War4 Northwind III; War4 Reckless Chant I, II; (Bank 1 AP)
War5 Spinning Ice I, II, III; War5 Howl of the North
SD0 Toughness; SD1 Durable Defense I, II, III
SD1 Item Defense I; SD0 Stalwart Defense; (Bank 2 AP)
Ken0 Strike with No Thought; SD2 Resilient Defense I, II, III; SD2 Instinctive Defense I; SD3 Tenacious Defense I
SD3 Tenacious Defense II, III; Ken3 Weapon Group Specialization
Ken3 Shattering Strike I; Ken1 Extra Action Boost I
Ken1 Extra Action Boost II, III
Ken4 Opportunity Attack; Hrp0 Agent of Good I; Hrp1 Harper Enchantment
Hrp1 Traveler's Toughness I, II; Hrp2 Know the Angles I, II



Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought


Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost III, Constitution
Momentum Swing III, Imp. Power Attack, Constitution
Lay Waste
Volcano's Edge
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz


Twists of Fate (31 fate points)


Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)
Unearthly Reactions (Tier 1 Magister)
Brace for Impact (Tier 1 Sentinel)

Tonzofo
07-10-2016, 09:58 AM
So really thinking about doing that 14/6 split for the Bard, but was wondering on viability of pure pdk warchanter. I mostly trio so wasn't sure if would be better in a small group setting.

Belgarath22
07-13-2016, 10:40 PM
This is the basic build I came up with. Starting points assume you are a double TR with a +1 dex tome. If you're a first life, drop 2 points from Int, and buy a +1 dex tome... Or put a level into it.

Assuming you're at level 20 with decent gear (no tomes, +10 stun item, +5 combat mastery, +6 int and charisma items, +6 tactics from LD twisted in) you'll have a stun of about 55. With +5 tomes, stun dc 60+. You also have access to the swashbuckler scathing words, which reduces fort saves in an AoE around you, so effective dc 63+.

When you get to level 30, you'll have a stun DC of between 80-100 depending on gear, etc... Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be possible to get past 100 dc with the freeze effects, due to charisma not having the same kind of boosts that strength has access to (rage, defender stance, power surge, etc, and you have to go pretty far into fighter to get access to the good tactic DC's feats, which removes a lot of your self-buff and self-healing capabilities, as well as losing some DC and duration on freezes from bard levels.

You can take one more fighter level for a free feat, which you'll probably spend on the +2 tactics feat, but you lose inspire excellence which is +2 or more DC anyways, as well as more hp and saves.

Now, after all that bad news, the good news is that this build should still be able to no fail freeze any EE content, and possibly even up to LH. It can perma-CC a pack of mobs for around 18 seconds when it gets to level 30 (dire charge 6 seconds, spinning ice 7 seconds, dire charge 6 seconds) and stun a single mob permanently. Damage should be pretty good, nothing compared to a full DPS build, but since you're hitting helpless mobs 24/7, if you're in legendary dreadnought with sense weakness twisted in, you'll be getting +80% to your damage on top of the standard helpless damage against everything but rednamed. Against rednamed, well... you have haste boost, damage boost, displace, and you can self-heal pretty efficiently of course.

On top of all that, you have great trapping abilities, second only to full int builds. With a search and disable item to swap in, you should be able to handle any traps you want, as well as have an almost no-fail evasion save.



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.29.001
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 30 Chaotic Good Purple Dragon Knight Male
(3 Fighter \ 2 Rogue \ 15 Bard \ 10 Epic)
Hit Points: 408
Spell Points: 865
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 24
Will: 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 30)
Strength 8 13
Dexterity 12 17
Constitution 14 20
Intelligence 16 21
Wisdom 8 13
Charisma 18 32

Tomes Used
+5 Tome of Strength used at level 1 \par +5 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1 \par +5 Tome of Constitution used at level 1 \par +5 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1 \par +5 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1 \par +5 Tome of Charisma used at level 1 \par
Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 30)
Balance 2 36
Bluff 0 21
Concentration 2 38
Diplomacy 2 41
Disable Device n/a 38
Haggle 0 21
Heal 0 11
Hide 0 13
Intimidate 0 21
Jump 0 11
Listen 0 11
Move Silently 0 13
Open Lock n/a 24
Perform 2 44
Repair 0 15
Search 2 38
Spellcraft 0 15
Spot 0 11
Swim 0 11
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 2 44

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Human Bonus) Shield Mastery
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Single Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 4 (Bard)


Level 5 (Bard)


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Precision


Level 7 (Bard)


Level 8 (Bard)


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Single Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Bard)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 13 (Bard)


Level 14 (Bard)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Single Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Bard)


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 19 (Bard)


Level 20 (Bard)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Inspire Excellence


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Martial Sphere: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Damage Reduction


Level 28 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Arcane Sphere: Lasting Inspiration


Level 29 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Martial Sphere: Dire Charge


Level 30 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Bulwark of Defense
Feat: (Legendary) Scion of the Astral Plane
Enhancement: Purple Dragon Knight - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Purple Dragon Knight - Cormyrean Knight Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Skaldic Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Weapon Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - The Poetic Edda (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Rough and Ready (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Rough and Ready (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Rough and Ready (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Iced Edges (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Iced Edges (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Iced Edges (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Action Boost: Sprint (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Ironskin Chant (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Ironskin Chant (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Frozen Fury (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Frozen Fury (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Frozen Fury (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Reckless Chant (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Reckless Chant (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Northwind (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Northwind (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Northwind (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Howl of the North (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Spinning Ice (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Spinning Ice (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Spinning Ice (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Item Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Item Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Confidence (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Swashbuckling (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - On Your Toes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - On Your Toes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - On Your Toes (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Scathing Words (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Scathing Words (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Scathing Words (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Fast Movement (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Skirmisher (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Harper Agent - Agent of Good (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Harper Agent - Harper Enchantment (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Harper Agent - Traveler's Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Harper Agent - Traveler's Toughness (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Harper Agent - Know The Angles (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Harper Agent - Know The Angles (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Harper Agent - Know The Angles (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Focus: Light Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)




Extend Spell, Lasting Inspiration, Epic DRR, and Bulwark of defense are all just preference feats, and can be swapped out for whatever other feats you want. Enhancements are, sadly, pretty much set in stone. There's up to 10 points you can take out of Kensai, but you'll lose 3 action boosts and/or haste boost.

Precision is also a preference feat, if you prefer power attack/cleaves, you can move the 4 points from dex into str, and replace precision with power attack. The cleaves are a bit harder to fit in, you'd need to drop both metamagics or move some feats into your epic feat slots. Good news is a lot of the epic feats in there aren't absolutely necessary, so it may be worthwhile to do that.

In general I'd run this build in Legendary dreadnought, with Sense Weakness, Legendary Shield Training, and Cocoon twisted in.

Hello, I was thinking if it worth to lose 1 level bard, and end 14/4/2 for 1 extra feature (can feat PA-cleave-great cleave; dropping extend). This opens the option for the LD cleaves that is a lot of fun (only need PA but more cleaves alow to reset them faster); tough I also like to have precision in this kind of build...

tough choice :/

KomradKillMachine
07-14-2016, 01:39 AM
Hello, I was thinking if it worth to lose 1 level bard, and end 14/4/2 for 1 extra feature (can feat PA-cleave-great cleave; dropping extend). This opens the option for the LD cleaves that is a lot of fun (only need PA but more cleaves alow to reset them faster); tough I also like to have precision in this kind of build...

tough choice :/

Dropping below 15 bard you lose:
1) Inspire excellence. +2 stats (like completionist). effective +2 tactic DCs.
2) Inspire heroics. Good to have.

But the more important thing about the feats:
1) Do not drop Extend, recasting haste/displacement is a PITA w/o it.
2) Drop Emp.heal, Drop Precision you're not a rogue or a ranged ranged toon.
3) PA/ Cleave/ G.Cleave are must-haves for Legendary Dreadnaught.
4) PSWF. Eh, personally I would take PTWF here. BUT, if you still want Northwind to proc on 19-20, I would try to get the best out of it by adding Ruby of endless night.
5) Bulwark of Defense? LOL. What a waste.

Ideally, if you go the proper route of PA-Cleave-G.Cleave, while dropping Emp.heal, Precison and Bulwark,
your feat selection will look like this:


Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Human Bonus) Shield Mastery
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Single Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 4 (Bard)


Level 5 (Bard)


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 7 (Bard)


Level 8 (Bard)


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Single Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Bard)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) G.Cleave


Level 13 (Bard)


Level 14 (Bard)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Single Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Bard)


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 19 (Bard)


Level 20 (Bard)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Inspire Excellence (Peanut butter)


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Martial Sphere: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Imp.Shield Mastery


Level 28 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Arcane Sphere: Lasting Inspiration (Jelly)


Level 29 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Martial Sphere: Dire Charge


Level 30 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Damage Reduction
Feat: (Legendary) Scion of the Astral Plane

Belgarath22
07-14-2016, 10:15 AM
Dropping below 15 bard you lose:
1) Inspire excellence. +2 stats (like completionist). effective +2 tactic DCs.
2) Inspire heroics. Good to have.

But the more important thing about the feats:
1) Do not drop Extend, recasting haste/displacement is a PITA w/o it.
2) Drop Emp.heal, Drop Precision you're not a rogue or a ranged ranged toon.
3) PA/ Cleave/ G.Cleave are must-haves for Legendary Dreadnaught.
4) PSWF. Eh, personally I would take PTWF here. BUT, if you still want Northwind to proc on 19-20, I would try to get the best out of it by adding Ruby of endless night.
5) Bulwark of Defense? LOL. What a waste.

Ideally, if you go the proper route of PA-Cleave-G.Cleave, while dropping Emp.heal, Precison and Bulwark,
your feat selection will look like this:

Ah I forgot that it opened the option for inspire excellence...
About the extend I am used to playing without it as the spell points pool it s not that big and 1:30 minute it is pretty much time to finish fights, and I like to have empower healing to heal in epic bya cocoon, renewal etc

maddong
07-28-2016, 08:15 PM
Before the last update my Spinning Ice was cleaning up on the LE 31 quests (memoirs, etc). After the last update my Spinning Ice is worthless even though I changed around my equipment so I think I'm only loosing 5 DC (went from combat mastery 11 to insightful combat mastery 6).

Are people finding it useful in LE content after the combat mastery bug fix?

KomradKillMachine
07-28-2016, 10:46 PM
Before the last update my Spinning Ice was cleaning up on the LE 31 quests (memoirs, etc). After the last update my Spinning Ice is worthless even though I changed around my equipment so I think I'm only loosing 5 DC (went from combat mastery 11 to insightful combat mastery 6).

Are people finding it useful in LE content after the combat mastery bug fix?

Yeah, same. Losing 8 overall DCs rather sucks. Animated rope was +14 insightful, now it only offers 2 more than boots of the innocent.
There are +6 insightful items in the game. I also heard that u32 might come with +4 quality combat mastery.

adrian69
08-15-2016, 11:34 AM
Yeah, same. Losing 8 overall DCs rather sucks. Animated rope was +14 insightful, now it only offers 2 more than boots of the innocent.
There are +6 insightful items in the game. I also heard that u32 might come with +4 quality combat mastery.


I saw it last night on Lammy World. Don't remember if it was the belt, trinket, helm, or the other, but there will be. There's also a nice +8 insight con item.

maddong
08-15-2016, 08:48 PM
On my bard I dropped divine might and went PDK tactics. Now my freezing ice is in the mid 80s and useful in the 31 LE content.

Raiztlin75
08-20-2016, 09:52 AM
Would this work as a 13 Bard 6 fighter 1 fvs variant pdk and if yes can you show me how on a third life

thanks in advance

I know master ubongahaw will be his normal master self

unbongwah
08-20-2016, 10:52 AM
Would this work as a 13 Bard 6 fighter 1 fvs variant pdk and if yes can you show me how on a third life
Usually the main reason to splash FvS or cleric is for Divine Might; but this is a CHA-based build largely for Cormyrian Knight Training's DC bonus: "as long as your Charisma remains higher than your Strength and you are wielding one of the above weapons [shortswords, longswords, bastard swords, greatswords], you receive a bonus to the DCs of your Tactical Feats equal to 1/3 your Charisma modifier." So boosting your STR higher than your CHA using DM would actually reduce your WC DCs (Frozen Fury, Spinning Ice). EDIT: that's why you want Know the Angles instead; it stacks w/CKT.

So it's a pointless splash; just stick to any of the builds already in this thread or elsewhere.

Raiztlin75
08-21-2016, 12:25 PM
Dropping below 15 bard you lose:
1) Inspire excellence. +2 stats (like completionist). effective +2 tactic DCs.
2) Inspire heroics. Good to have.

But the more important thing about the feats:
1) Do not drop Extend, recasting haste/displacement is a PITA w/o it.
2) Drop Emp.heal, Drop Precision you're not a rogue or a ranged ranged toon.
3) PA/ Cleave/ G.Cleave are must-haves for Legendary Dreadnaught.
4) PSWF. Eh, personally I would take PTWF here. BUT, if you still want Northwind to proc on 19-20, I would try to get the best out of it by adding Ruby of endless night.
5) Bulwark of Defense? LOL. What a waste.

Ideally, if you go the proper route of PA-Cleave-G.Cleave, while dropping Emp.heal, Precison and Bulwark,
your feat selection will look like this:

Does this still work with update 31

Enderoc
08-21-2016, 03:04 PM
With expected changes to Overwhelming Critical in the upcoming game update, ie, no longer having any prerequiste, fyi. now that would be seriously boss

unbongwah
08-22-2016, 09:15 AM
now that would be seriously boss
That post is two years old; Mindos is referring to when Turbine eliminated Great Cleave and STR 23 as pre-reqs to Overwhelming Crit in U23 (http://ddowiki.com/page/Update_23_Release_Notes#Feats), so it became available to everyone, not just STR-based melee builds. I would not expect them to eliminate the Improved Crit pre-req as well.

NaturalHazard
09-08-2016, 03:02 PM
do you think 2 barb for fast movement and ear smash would work? Would not have the Aps for SD stance plus needing 3 fighter could go 15 bard 3 fighter 2 barbarian you miss out on level 6 spells though. And the +2 overall dcs but you get a no save stun? fun toon to level though, haste, displacement, all that fast movement........................

sooktest
09-17-2016, 11:24 PM
Since this thread got bumped, here's a build I did a while back for someone who wanted to use an eSOS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Sword_of_Shadow) and was lucky enough to have a Dun'Robar (http://ddowiki.com/page/Seal_of_House_Dun%27Robar) w/Stunning +10 as well. :eek: Note that this is/was intended as an ITR / Martial EPL farming build, not an endgame build; it loses a lot of DPS by switching to different greatswords. [eSOS crit spec should be 15-18/x3 19-20/x6 (Howl of the North + Overwhelming Crit + Devastating Crit). EDIT: regular greatswords are only 17-18/x2 19-20/x5.] It also requires Harper for Know the Angles, which boosts both dmg & Warchanter DCs.

Barb splash is for +10% run speed - which stacks w/SB Fast Movement and Expeditious Chant for a whoppin' +41% run speed on this build :cool: - and +6 dmg from Ravager Imp Power Atk enhs; this build doesn't use Rage so it can use defensive stance instead. It wears med armor w/Armorer so Tenacious Defense (+20% HPs) applies; this build predates the armor MRR nerf, but I think I would stick w/med for this class split.

eSOS Chanter
16/3/1 Bard/Fighter/Barbarian
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter 6. Bard 11. Bard 16. Fighter
2. Bard 7. Bard 12. Bard 17. Bard
3. Bard 8. Bard 13. Bard 18. Bard
4. Bard 9. Bard 14. Bard 19. Bard
5. Bard 10. Barbarian 15. Fighter 20. Bard


Stats
36pt Tome Level Up
---- ---- --------
Strength 13 +4 4: CHA
Dexterity 8 +4 8: CHA
Constitution 13 +4 12: CHA
Intelligence 16 +4 16: CHA
Wisdom 8 +4 20: CHA
Charisma 18 +4 24: CHA
28: CHA

Feats

1 : Insightful Reflexes
1 PDK : Cleave
1 Fighter: Power Attack
3 : Force of Personality
6 : Great Cleave
9 : Two Handed Fighting
12 : Improved Critical: Slashing
15 : Improved Two Handed Fighting
15 Fighter: Greater Two Handed Fighting
18 : Empower Healing Spell
21 Epic : Inspire Excellence
24 Epic : Overwhelming Critical
26 Destiny: Lasting Inspiration
27 Epic : Quicken Spell
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting


Enhancements (80 AP)

Purple Dragon Knight (3 AP)


Damage Boost

Cormyrean Knight Training



Warchanter (43 AP)


Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism, Fighting Spirit

Poetic Edda III, Enchant Weapon
Arcane Shield Chant III, Iced Edges III
Ironskin Chant III, Frozen Fury III
Reckless Chant III, Armorer, Northwind III
Expeditious Chant III, Chant of Power III, Howl of the North, Spinning Ice III



Swashbuckler (7 AP)


Confidence

On Your Toes I, Tavern Shanties III
Fast Movement



Stalwart Defender (13 AP)


Toughness, Stalwart Defense

Item Defense I, Durable Defense III
Resilient Defense III, Instinctive Defense I
Tenacious Defense III



Ravager (4 AP)


Furious Rage

Barbarian Power Attack III



Harper Agent (10 AP)


Agent of Good I

Harper Enchantment, Weathered Traveler II
Versatile Adept II, Know the Angles III




Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought


Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost III
Momentum Swing III, Imp. Power Attack
Lay Waste, Critical Damage I, Haste Boost III
Volcano's Edge
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz

Twists of Fate (22 fate points)


Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)

EDIT: I took PTHF instead of PTWF because this build is meant to be a big-time Cleave-r with Cleave / Gt Cleave / Lay Waste / Spinning Ice, which benefit from extra glancing blows but not doublestrike.

Can this be done with a 32 point build? (no harper)

What adjustments would you make? Also, if I wanted to go rapier and buckler...how might that effect the play?

unbongwah
09-18-2016, 12:26 PM
Can this be done with a 32 point build? (no harper)

What adjustments would you make? Also, if I wanted to go rapier and buckler...how might that effect the play?
This build has to be PDK and it has to use one of their racial weapons (short sword, longsword, bastard sword, or greatsword); otherwise you lose the DC bonus from Cormyrian Knight Training ("as long as your Charisma remains higher than your Strength and you are wielding one of the above weapons, you receive a bonus to the DCs of your Tactical Feats equal to 1/3 your Charisma modifier"). [EDIT: you also lose a fair bit of DCs w/out Harper's Know the Angles, but if you don't have it, you don't have it, so...] So if you want a Swashbuckling variant, then that means you have to use short swords. It also means you're stuck using light armor; the build you quoted was designed to use med armor.

Once you start down that road, you're better off using one of the bard 15 / ftr 3 / rog 2 or possibly bard 12 / ftr 6 / rog 2 builds out there, so you can get Evasion (plus trap skills), defensive stance, and a couple extra feats. Then the question mark is do you want Inspire Heroics+Excellence (bard 15) or extra feats & access to higher-tier ftr Enhancements (e.g., T4 Kensei is pretty nice, even if you're going for T5 WC).

sooktest
09-18-2016, 12:37 PM
So if you want a Swashbuckling variant, then that means you have to use short swords. It also means you're stuck using light armor; the build you quoted was designed to use med armor.

Once you start down that road, you're better off using one of the bard 15 / ftr 3 / rog 2 or possibly bard 12 / ftr 6 / rog 2 builds out there, so you can get Evasion (plus trap skills), defensive stance, and a couple extra feats. Then the question mark is do you want Inspire Heroics+Excellence (bard 15) or extra feats & access to higher-tier ftr Enhancements (e.g., T4 Kensei is pretty nice, even if you're going for T5 WC).

Unbongwah, you always impress the heck out of me. Thanks so much for taking the time to explain this stuff.

Swashbuckling and Harpers... If Harpers is an account level thing I may have it. I need to dbl check. Swashbuckling however, if I'm not mistaken is a blade and shield setup within the Bard Enhancement lines...right? I'll look at that.... but if I udnerstand you correctly, it means I need to drop down to LIGHT armor...and thusly, I may want Rogue Evasion....

unbongwah
09-18-2016, 01:00 PM
Swashbuckling and Harpers... If Harpers is an account level thing I may have it. I need to dbl check.
VIPs get it free; everyone else has to unlock it either from DDO Store or via Harper Favor (http://ddowiki.com/page/Favor#The_Harpers). [All Favor unlocks are per-server, whereas Store unlocks are account-wide.]

Swashbuckling however, if I'm not mistaken is a blade and shield setup within the Bard Enhancement lines...right? I'll look at that.... but if I udnerstand you correctly, it means I need to drop down to LIGHT armor...and thusly, I may want Rogue Evasion....
Swashbuckler (http://ddowiki.com/page/Swashbuckler_enhancements) was introduced with Update 22 and was the first in the wave of PrE / melee DPS buffs in the last two years. It also introduced the SWF feat line (http://ddowiki.com/page/Feats#Single_Weapon_Fighting_Passive_Feats). Swashbuckling is pretty strong DPS-wise (although it's been eclipsed by other melee classes), but it has a few requirements: namely it only works with Finesseable (or thrown) weapons; you have to use the SWF combat style (i.e., no TWF or 2H Swashbucklers); you are restricted to light armor or robes (hence my Evasion comments); and if you want to go S&B, you can only use bucklers and you have to take the Skirmisher enhancement from Swashbuckler - the upside being you benefit from SWF and Shield Mastery feats simultaneously. [There are other Enhancements if you'd rather use an orb, runearm, or nothing in your offhand.]

EDIT: didn't see a recent version of this, so I just threw it together.

PDK Freezechanter (no Harper)
15/3/2 Bard/Fighter/Rogue
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter 6. Bard 11. Fighter 16. Bard
2. Rogue 7. Bard 12. Fighter 17. Bard
3. Bard 8. Bard 13. Bard 18. Bard
4. Bard 9. Bard 14. Bard 19. Bard
5. Bard 10. Bard 15. Rogue 20. Bard


Stats
32pt Level Up
---- --------
Strength 8 4: CHA
Dexterity 14 8: CHA
Constitution 14 12: CHA
Intelligence 12 16: CHA
Wisdom 8 20: CHA
Charisma 18 24: CHA
28: CHA

Skills
F R B B B B B B B B F F B B R B B B B B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
------------------------------------------------------------
Perform 4 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 3 1 2 1 1 1 1 23
Disable 5 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 5 1 1 1 1 1 23
Search 1 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 5 1 1 1 1 1 23
UMD 4 3 2 1 1 1 1 3 1 2 1 1 1 1 23
Open Lo 1 1 1 1 1 1 3 1 1 1 1 13
Balance 2 4 1 7
Jump 4 4
Heal 2 2
Swim 2 2
Tumble 1 1
------------------------------------------------------------
16 10 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 4 4 8 8 10 8 8 8 8 8


Feats

1 : Single Weapon Fighting
1 PDK : Shield Mastery
1 Fighter: Precision
3 : Extend Spell
6 : Quicken Spell
9 : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
11 Fighter: Improved Critical: Piercing
12 : Improved Shield Mastery
15 : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
18 : Empower Healing Spell
21 Epic : Inspire Excellence
24 Epic : Overwhelming Critical
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting OR Lasting Inspiration
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Deific Warding
30 Epic :
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea OR Plane of Earth


Spells

Bard


Focusing Chant, <Any>, <Any>, <Any>
Blur, Rage, <Any>, <Any>
Displacement, Haste, <Any>, <Any>
Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Cure Critical Wounds, <Any>
Shadow Walk, Mass Cure Light Wounds, <Any>



Enhancements (80 AP)

Warchanter (41 AP)


Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism, Fighting Spirit

Enchant Weapon, Rough and Ready II
Arcane Shield Chant III, Iced Edges III, Sprint Boost I
Ironskin Chant III, Frozen Fury III
Reckless Chant III, Northwind III
Expeditious Chant III, Chant of Power III, Howl of the North, Spinning Ice III



Swashbuckler (14 AP)


Confidence, Swashbuckling, Uncanny Dodge

Blow By Blow: Melee III, Tavern Shanties I
Deflect Arrows, Fast Movement
Elegant Footwork, Skirmisher



Stalwart Defender (13 AP)


Toughness, Stalwart Defense

Item Defense I, Durable Defense III
Resilient Defense III, Instinctive Defense I
Tenacious Defense III



Kensei (7 AP)


Kensei Focus: Light Blades, Spiritual Bond

Extra Action Boost I, Haste Boost III



Purple Dragon Knight (5 AP)


Damage Boost

Cormyrean Knight Training, Improved Recovery




Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought


Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost III, Constitution
Constitution
Critical Damage II, Constitution
Volcano's Edge, Constitution
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz


Twists of Fate (22 fate points)


Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Lithe (Tier 2 Shadowdancer)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)


With only INT 12, skill pts are tight, so I focused on Perform, UMD, Disable, and Search, with leftover pts into Open Lock. Hope you're good at memorizing trap locations!

There's some good Crystal Cove gear for a PDK Swash/chanter, namely Smallblade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Cutthroat%27s_Smallblade) (note the 18-20/x2 crit profile), Swashbuckler buckler (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Swashbuckler), and Duelist's Leathers (http://ddowiki.com/page/Duelist%27s_Leathers). It's worth farming the ML:16 versions for a first-lifer, IMO, particularly the buckler. Other good lt armors in that lvl range: Black dragonhide (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Black_Dragonhide_Armor), Parasitic Breastplate (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Parasitic_Breastplate), Assassin Initiate (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Assassin_Initiate%27s_Leathers).

sooktest
09-19-2016, 02:59 PM
Thank you SO much man!!

This is exactly what I was looking for.

I'm looking forward to giving this a go!


EDIT:

I have my account in VIP status so I do have HARPER, So it sounds like "Harper's Know the Angles" is the key for the added DCs.

KomradKillMachine
09-20-2016, 01:02 AM
Does this still work with update 31

Ofcourse it does. Tactics are back to appropriate post U32 with Cannith crafting and Slaver's Legendary executioners Helm.
Of the top of my head: Dire charge is 110+, Spinning Ice is 105+, Frozen fury is 101+ range.

KomradKillMachine
09-20-2016, 01:41 AM
snip

A couple of points on the build you suggested, especially given the consideration that it's a 32pt build:

1) Given what we know, he'll/shel'll be struggling for DC's since this is a Tome, Gear, and KtA necessitating character.
I'd replace:
lvl28 ED feat for Tactician and Legendary feat for Astral Plane to give a flat boost of +6 DC's.

2) What's the Quicken for, Cure spells? Cocoon is quick either way.

3) I understand having Grim precision for Raid bosses, but given that this build specializes in making mobs helpless I would suggest Sense Weakness and it also works against bosses.

4) Not having Cleaves, Momentum swing, and Lay waste is a personal preference. But it greatly improves DPS against reddnamed and purplenamed when your Freeze attacks are semi-useless.
Still a personal preference.

5) I'm also against him/her trying to fit in the skills for trapping. I wouldn't want him/her to spread the build thin. With a 32pt build there won't even be a possibility to build a Jack-of-all-trades kinda guy. It's just a recipe for frustration.

All in all, pretty solid build.
Just a few pointers for the newbie to consider.

unbongwah
09-20-2016, 08:49 AM
2) What's the Quicken for, Cure spells?
Yes. Also disco ball, if the DCs are high enough.

3) I understand having Grim precision for Raid bosses, but given that this build specializes in making mobs helpless I would suggest Sense Weakness and it also works against bosses.
I tried to keep Twists semi-reasonable for a first-lifer. Legendary SM is the first must-have, IMO; anything else is "squeeze it in when you have enough Fate pts." A 4-2 combo (Sense Weakness + LSM) is 15 Fate pts; a 3-2-1 combo (Grim Precision + LSM + Cocoon) is 14 pts.

4) Not having Cleaves, Momentum swing, and Lay waste is a personal preference. But it greatly improves DPS against reddnamed and purplenamed when your Freeze attacks are semi-useless.
My rationale was (A) DEX for Reflex saves was more important than STR for PA pre-req and (B) adding the two Cleaves would mean giving up two metamagics, which would be unfortunate. Plus taking Precision means Thread the Needle is an option for a possible respec into T5 Swashbuckler.

5) I'm also against him/her trying to fit in the skills for trapping. I wouldn't want him/her to spread the build thin. With a 32pt build there won't even be a possibility to build a Jack-of-all-trades kinda guy. It's just a recipe for frustration.
Perform & UMD are the only must-have skills on a bard, IMO. What you do with remaining skill pts is up to you. But max ranks plus bard buffs plus decent trapper gear is sufficient for 99% of content, so why not?

The_Golden
10-21-2016, 02:33 PM
Is it possible to have 4 classes? I was hoping to have a 16 bard/ 2 rouge/ 1 fighters / 1 barb split but I wasn't sure if the game allows this and if it does, why it hasn't been mentioned as a natural option

unbongwah
10-21-2016, 03:03 PM
Is it possible to have 4 classes?
No: three is the limit.

Bullytt
11-08-2016, 05:03 AM
How useful in Cleave in these types of builds? Alternative is FOP/Precision.

I tend to think the Precision and maybe Grim Precision are going to be useful against undead/etc.

Note: Extend is a Quality of Life feat for me.

Varzil with Precision/FOP
15/3/2 Bard/Fighter/Rogue
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter . . . . 6. Bard. . . . . .11. Bard. . . . . .16. Bard
2. Rogue . . . . . 7. Bard. . . . . .12. Fighter. . . . 17. Bard
3. Bard . . . . . .8. Bard . . . . . 13. Bard . . . . . 18. Fighter
4. Bard . . . . . .9. Bard . . . . . 14. Bard . . . . . 19. Bard
5. Bard . . . . . 10. Bard . . . . . 15. Rogue . . . . .20. Bard


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ---- . . --------
Strength. . . . 10. . . .+6. . . .4: CHA
Dexterity . . . 14. . . .+6. . . .8: CHA
Constitution. . 14. . . .+6. . . 12: CHA
Intelligence. . 14. . . .+6. . . 16: CHA
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . .+6. . . 20: CHA
Charisma. . . . 18. . . .+6. . . 24: CHA
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: CHA

Skills
. . . . . F .R. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. F .B .B .R. B. B. F .B .B
. . . . . 1 .2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Perform . 2 . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. . .2 .1 . . 2. 1. . .1 .2 .23
Disable . . .5. ½. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12. ½. 1. 2 .1 .1 .23
Search. . 1 .1. . . . . .½ .1½ 2½ 1½ 3. 2. 1½ 1. 1½ 1. 1. ½. 1 .1½ 1. 23
Haggle. . . . . . .5 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 2. 2. . .2 .1 . . 1. 2. 23
UMD . . . 2 . . 1. 1. 2. 3. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1 .1 .1 . . 2. 1. . .1 .2 .23
Heal. . . 1 . . 1. . .1 . . 1. . .1 . . 1. . .1 . . . . . 2½ ½. 1. . .11
Spot. . . 1 .1. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. 1. 1. ½. ½. ½ .½ .1 . . 1. . . . ½. . .11
Balance . 2 . . . .1 .1 .2 .1 . . . . . . . . . .1 . . . . . . . . 1. .9
Open Lo . . .4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
Tumble. . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .20 11 .9 .9 .9 .9 10 10 10 10 10. 6 10 10 13 11 11 .7 11 11


Feats

.1. . . . : Single Weapon Fighting
.1 PDK. . : Precision
.1 Fighter: Shield Mastery
.3. . . . : Extend Spell
.6. . . . : Empower Healing Spell
.9. . . . : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
12. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
12 Fighter: Improved Critical: Piercing
15. . . . : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
18. . . . : Quicken Spell
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Force of Personality
26 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Inspire Excellence
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting


Or

Varzil with PA/Cleave
15/3/2 Bard/Fighter/Rogue
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter . . . . 6. Bard. . . . . .11. Bard. . . . . .16. Bard
2. Rogue . . . . . 7. Bard. . . . . .12. Fighter. . . . 17. Bard
3. Bard . . . . . .8. Bard . . . . . 13. Bard . . . . . 18. Fighter
4. Bard . . . . . .9. Bard . . . . . 14. Bard . . . . . 19. Bard
5. Bard . . . . . 10. Bard . . . . . 15. Rogue . . . . .20. Bard


Stats
. . . . . . . .34pt. . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .----. . .---- . . ---- . . --------
Strength. . . . 13 . . . 13. . . .+6. . . .4: CHA
Dexterity . . . 11 . . . 13. . . .+6. . . .8: CHA
Constitution. . 14 . . . 14. . . .+6. . . 12: CHA
Intelligence. . 12 . . . 12. . . .+6. . . 16: CHA
Wisdom. . . . . .8 . . . .8. . . .+6. . . 20: CHA
Charisma. . . . 18 . . . 18. . . .+6. . . 24: CHA
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28: CHA

Skills
. . . . . F .R. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. F .B .B .R. B. B. F .B .B
. . . . . 1 .2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Perform . 2 . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. . .2 .1 . . 2. 1. . .1 .2 .23
Disable . . .5. ½. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12. ½. 1. 2 .1 .1 .23
Haggle. . . . . . .5 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 2. 2. . .2 .1 . . 1. 2. 23
UMD . . . 2 . . 1. 1. 2. 3. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1 .1 .1 . . 2. 1. . .1 .2 .23
Search. . . .1. . . . . .½ .1½ 2½ 1½ 3. 2. 1½ 1. 2. . .1½ ½. 1 .1½ 1. 22
Heal. . . 1 . . 1. . .1 . . 1. . .1 . . 1. . .1 . . . . . 2. . .1 . . 10
Balance . 2 . . . .1 .1 .2 .1 . . . . . . . . . .1 . . . . . . . . . . 8
Open Lo . . .4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
Spot. . . . . . . . . . . . . .½ .½ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
Tumble. . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .16 10 .8 .8 .8 .8 .9 .9 .9 .9 .9 .5. 9. 9 12 10 10. 6 10 10


Feats

.1. . . . : Single Weapon Fighting
.1 PDK. . : Power Attack
.1 Fighter: Shield Mastery
.3. . . . : Cleave
.6. . . . : Empower Healing Spell
.9. . . . : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
12. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
12 Fighter: Improved Critical: Piercing
15. . . . : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
18. . . . : Quicken Spell
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Extend Spell
26 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Inspire Excellence
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting



Shared between the two builds.

Spells

Cure Light Wounds, Focusing Chant, Detect Secret Doors, <Any>
Blur, Cure Moderate Wounds, Invisibility, Rage
Cure Serious Wounds, Displacement, Good Hope, Haste
Cure Critical Wounds, Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Greater Heroism, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Mind Fog

Enhancements (80 AP)

Warchanter (40 AP)
Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism, Fighting Spirit
Inspired Bravery I, Rough and Ready III
Iced Edges III, Sprint Boost I
Ironskin Chant III, High Spirits I, Frozen Fury III, Charisma
Reckless Chant III, Northwind III, Charisma
Chant of Power III, Howl of the North, Spinning Ice III

Swashbuckler (11 AP)
Confidence, Swashbuckling
On Your Toes III, Tavern Shanties I
Deflect Arrows, Fast Movement
Skirmisher

Stalwart Defender (13 AP)
Toughness, Stalwart Defense
Durable Defense III, Stalwart Defensive Mastery II
Resilient Defense III
Tenacious Defense III

Harper Agent (9 AP)
Agent of Good I
Harper Enchantment, Awareness II
Versatile Adept I, Know the Angles III

Purple Dragon Knight (7 AP)
Damage Boost, Charisma
Cormyrean Knight Training, Improved Recovery


Destiny (24 AP) - Errors

Divine Crusader
Bane of Undeath, Endless Turning III, Charisma
Consecration III, Charisma
Sacred Ground, Charisma
Crusade, Charisma
Heavenly Presence, Celestial Champion

Twists of Fate (22 fate points)
Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
Legendary Tactics (Tier 1 Dreadnought)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)



Hi there - I have a couple of questions.. not totally new but they sound like new player qns to me!!

Fighter to give access to Heavy Armor and Shields and Feats? With just buffs that can afford to fizzle and divine heals - am I assuming we are using plate (so the dex is not an issue in this build?)

Also as we have access to tower shield is it better to go with that rather than buckler and tap into some of the durability of stalwart defender?

This will be my first go at a melee character and I duo a lot with a friend who likes to build characters that risk death if it is raining too hard. Adding a bit of survivability will go a long way!!

Thanks!!

Bullytt

unbongwah
11-08-2016, 08:20 AM
Fighter to give access to Heavy Armor and Shields and Feats?
No, ftr 3 splash is for 2 extra feats and defensive stance; 13 APs buys you +25 PRR/MRR and +20% HPs which is a significant survivability boost. [Also as PDK you start as ftr, so you would have to LR +1 to get rid of that level; cheaper just to build on it.] Swashbucklers still have to use light armor & bucklers.

Bullytt
11-08-2016, 09:28 AM
No, ftr 3 splash is for 2 extra feats and defensive stance; 13 APs buys you +25 PRR/MRR and +20% HPs which is a significant survivability boost. [Also as PDK you start as ftr, so you would have to LR +1 to get rid of that level; cheaper just to build on it.] Swashbucklers still have to use light armor & bucklers.

Hmmm

I was thinking of trading the doublestrike dmg for the AC and going a kind of Singy Icey Stalwart Vangaard - whistlin a little tune whilst breaking noses with a tower shield. CC comes with both Fascinate and Freeze.

Extra damage coming in from shield bashing.

Im not so good on the numbers - maybe this would have frustratingly low dmg... but maybe that is the job of my glass cannon partner in crime (when they learn not to spike dmg too early)

Any FroStangaard builds using PDK jump to mind - or is this just crazy talk?

Thanks for your initial response btw.

I tried to use the builder:

Frostangaard
16/4 Bard/Fighter
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter . . . . 6. Bard. . . . . .11. Bard. . . . . .16. Bard
2. Fighter . . . . 7. Bard. . . . . .12. Bard. . . . . .17. Bard
3. Fighter . . . . 8. Bard. . . . . .13. Bard. . . . . .18. Bard
4. Fighter . . . . 9. Bard. . . . . .14. Bard. . . . . .19. Bard
5. Bard . . . . . 10. Bard . . . . . 15. Bard . . . . . 20. Bard


Stats
. . . . . . . .32pt . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . --------
Strength. . . . 13. . . .4: CHA
Dexterity . . . 11. . . .8: CHA
Constitution. . 15. . . 12: CHA
Intelligence. . .8. . . 16: CHA
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . 20: CHA
Charisma. . . . 18. . .


Skills (Errors)
. . . . . F .F. F .F. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B
. . . . . 1 .2. 3 .4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Perform . 2 .½. ½ .½. 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 22½
Spellcr . 2 .½. ½ .½. 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 22½
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . . 8 .2. 2 .2. 8. 2. 2. 2. 2. 2. 2. 2. 2. 2. 2. 2. 2. 2. 2. 2
. . . . . 8 .2. 2 .2. 6. 6. 6. 6. 6. 6. 6. 6. 6. 6. 6. 6. 6. 6. 6. 6


Feats

.1. . . . : Power Attack
.1 PDK. . : Cleave
.1 Fighter: Shield Mastery
.2 Fighter: Improved Shield Bash
.3. . . . : Force of Personality
.4 Fighter: Great Cleave
.6. . . . : Toughness
.9. . . . : Weapon Focus: Slashing
12. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
15. . . . : Improved Critical: Slashing
18. . . . : Shield Deflection


Spells

Bard
Focusing Chant, Expeditious Retreat, Detect Secret Doors, Cure Light Wounds, Charm Person
<Any>, <Any>, <Any>, <Any>
<Any>, <Any>, <Any>, <Any>
<Any>, <Any>, <Any>, <Any>
<Any>, <Any>, <Any>, <Any>
<Any>, <Any>

Enhancements (80 AP)

Warchanter (42 AP)
Skaldic: Constitution
Poetic Edda III, Rough and Ready III
Arcane Shield Chant III, Iced Edges III
Ironskin Chant III, Frozen Fury III, Charisma
Reckless Chant III, Northwind III, Charisma
Chant of Power II, Howl of the North, Spinning Ice III, Kingly Recovery III

Stalwart Defender (18 AP)
Toughness
Durable Defense III, Defense Boost III
Armor Expertise III
Hardy Defense III, Shield Expertise III, Constitution

Vanguard (17 AP)
To the Fore!
Shield Specialization, Shield Smash III
Stunning Shield III, Missile Shield III
Fatal Bulwark, Shield Riposte III

Purple Dragon Knight (3 AP)
Attack Boost
Cormyrean Knight Training



Bullytt

unbongwah
11-08-2016, 11:34 AM
Any FroStangaard builds using PDK jump to mind - or is this just crazy talk?
What you describe is possible but there are several challenges:

Switching to heavy armor + tower shield means figuring out how to deal with arcane spell failure (http://ddowiki.com/page/Arcane_spell_failure). The good news is there's a couple of tower shields with zero ASF (e.g., Skyvault (http://ddowiki.com/page/Skyvault_Shield)); the bad news is WC Armorer does nothing for hvy armor. If you can craft Twilight armor, that would help a lot, but restricts your options.
Cormyrian Knight Training (which provides CHA-to-dmg and DC bonus to WC abilities) only works with PDK weapons: i.e., short-/long-/great-/bastard swords. If you're not going the Swashbuckler route but still want S&B, that basically leaves long- or bastard swords, both of which are mediocre weapons without some crit bonuses which you won't get on a 16/4 split. Switching to bard 14 / ftr 6 opens up Kensei's Strike w/No Thought, but costs you lvl 6 spells and Inspire Heroics / Excellence.
CKT doesn't apply to shield bashes, which will remain based on STR. Although the DC bonus from CKT should apply to Stunning Shield, so that's a silver lining.


Personally I think you're stacking the deck against yourself too much. If you're looking for something classic-tank-y, this isn't the build you should be using, IMO.

NaturalHazard
11-10-2016, 02:36 PM
with elegant footwork, does the enemy missing you due to displacement and incorp count? if so thats pretty awesome 50% displace and 15% or more incorp means it must go off a fair bit.

unbongwah
11-11-2016, 02:26 PM
Frostangaard
16/4 Bard/Fighter
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight
All right, let's take a second look at this build concept and see what we can do to improve it.

PDK FreezeGuard
14/6 Bard/Fighter
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter 6. Bard 11. Fighter 16. Bard
2. Bard 7. Fighter 12. Bard 17. Bard
3. Fighter 8. Fighter 13. Bard 18. Bard
4. Bard 9. Fighter 14. Bard 19. Bard
5. Bard 10. Bard 15. Bard 20. Bard


Stats
32pt Level Up
---- --------
Strength 16 4: CHA
Dexterity 8 8: STR
Constitution 14 12: CHA
Intelligence 8 16: CHA
Wisdom 8 20: CHA
Charisma 18 24: CHA
28: CHA

Skills
F B F B B B F F F B F B B B B B B B B B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
------------------------------------------------------------
Perform 5 2 1 1 4 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
Intim 4 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
UMD 1 4 3 1 2 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
Spellcr 1 2 4 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 21
Tumble 1 1
------------------------------------------------------------
8 6 2 6 6 6 2 2 2 6 2 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6


Feats

1 : Cleave
1 PDK : Shield Mastery
1 Fighter: Power Attack
3 : Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword
3 Fighter: Two Handed Fighting
6 : Great Cleave
8 Fighter: Improved Two Handed Fighting
9 : Improved Shield Mastery
11 Fighter: Improved Critical: Slashing
12 : Quicken Spell
15 : Greater Two Handed Fighting
18 : Improved Shield Bash
21 Epic : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic : Empower Healing Spell
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting
27 Epic : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting OR Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Deific Warding
30 Epic : Bulwark of Defense OR Force of Personality
30 Legend : Scion of: Plane of Earth


Enhancements (80 AP)

Warchanter (40 AP)


Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism, Fighting Spirit

Enchant Weapon, Rough and Ready III
Arcane Shield Chant III, Iced Edges III
Ironskin Chant III, Frozen Fury III
Reckless Chant III, Armorer, Northwind III
Chant of Power III, Howl of the North, Spinning Ice III



Stalwart Defender (13 AP)


Toughness, Stalwart Defense

Durable Defense III, Stalwart Defensive Mastery I
Resilient Defense III, Instinctive Defense I
Tenacious Defense III



Vanguard (13 AP)


To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I

Shield Smash III, Unbalancing Shove I
Stunning Shield I, Missile Shield III
Fatal Bulwark



Kensei (11 AP)


Kensei Focus: Heavy Blades, Spiritual Bond, Strike with No Thought

Extra Action Boost II, Haste Boost III
Ascetic Training: Conditioning I



Purple Dragon Knight (3 AP)


Damage Boost

Cormyrean Knight Training




Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought


Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost III, Constitution
Momentum Swing III, Imp. Power Attack
Lay Waste, Critical Damage II
Volcano's Edge
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz


Twists of Fate (30 fate points)


Energy Burst: Acid (Tier 4 Draconic)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)


Apart from the extra feat, tweaking the level split from 16/4 to 14/6 enables access to lvl 6 Kensei & Vanguard cores.

Gains: +5% attack speed, +10% shield bashing, +1 crit multiplier (Spinal Tap becomes 17-18/x4 19-20/x7 in Dreadnought with HotN+Overwhelming+Devastating Crit). Switching to bastard swords also means full glancing blows.
Loses: lvl 6 spells (Otto's Irresistible Dance), Inspire Heroics / Excellence, WC freeze duration goes down 1 second (8 vs 7 secs)

Basically, I trade some bard bonuses for a significant gain in melee DPS.

APs are really tight, since you need 3 APs PDK for CKT, 11 APs Kensei for SwNT, 11 APs Vanguard for Vicious Shield I, 13 APs SD for Tenacious Defense, and 35 APs WC for HotN+Spinning Ice, which only leaves you with 7 APs to spare. You can see I put most of them into WC for more bonuses plus Fatal Bulwark for good measure.

Gear-wise, this build uses [B]medium armor and heavy shields with zero ASF; ideally I would recommend Fanion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Fanion) to start. Why heavy instead of tower? Mostly because hvy shields don't cap your max DEX bonus (MDB) like tower shields, which in turn allows you to take advantage of the higher MDB / Dodge potential of medium armor to make up for the lower PRR vs heavy armor. All of the epic named hvy shields (http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Large_shields) have 15% ASF; so just remember to slot a -15% ASF blue augment somewhere in your gear (doesn't have to be on the shield itself). [EN Wall of Wood (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Wall_of_Wood_(Level_22)) is a good choice for a "starter" epic shield: Devotion, +20% shield bashing, and +40 heal amp which stacks with PDK gloves or Iron Mitts.]

I won't claim this is a better build than a conventional PDK Swashie / Warchanter like I posted earlier. Frankly I expect DPS to be lower due to slower atk speed and worse crit profile (even w/SwNT); though I suppose the silver lining is more AoE attacks with Cleave + GC. But it is closer to what you originally pitched, only moar better, IMO. :cool:

pappo
11-30-2016, 11:26 AM
Why do you take Two Handed fighting feats when your weapon is a Bastard Sword ? Isn't two handed fighting for greataxes / falchions ??

unbongwah
11-30-2016, 02:25 PM
Glancing blows (http://ddowiki.com/page/Glancing_blow) apply to bastard swords or dwarven axes when single-wielded (i.e., S&B or SWF but not TWF) as well as 2H weapons.

pappo
11-30-2016, 05:12 PM
Glancing blows (http://ddowiki.com/page/Glancing_blow) apply to bastard swords or dwarven axes when single-wielded (i.e., S&B or SWF but not TWF) as well as 2H weapons.

Excuse my questioning, I am not a seasoned PNP player, or someone who digs into the fine details of builds. I just like seeing the ones that you , and others, post and then I try them.

But the Wiki says " A glancing blow is an additional hit caused with a two-handed weapon" and it says bastard swords cause glancing blows but bastard swords aren't two handed weapons are they ?
So, logically if bastard swords cause glancing blows by themselves, why take the two handed feats, since the sword alone gives you glancing blows.

adrian69
11-30-2016, 08:37 PM
Excuse my questioning, I am not a seasoned PNP player, or someone who digs into the fine details of builds. I just like seeing the ones that you , and others, post and then I try them.

But the Wiki says " A glancing blow is an additional hit caused with a two-handed weapon" and it says bastard swords cause glancing blows but bastard swords aren't two handed weapons are they ?
So, logically if bastard swords cause glancing blows by themselves, why take the two handed feats, since the sword alone gives you glancing blows.

Ok, it's like wielding two weapons with no feats gives the off hand weapons a 20% base to hit, 2handers, Daxes, and bastards all have a base chance to glancing blow with 20% of the weapons base damage. The THF feats each raise this chance by 10% with the first and third feat allowing GBs to be produced always on the third and fourth swing as opposed to the chance. so by greater THF, you make GBs on the first, third, and fourth swing in the attack sequence with a minimum of 50% of the weapons base damage. The feats also give 6 melee power, which becomes 6% damage as your weapon and dmg stat start pusing base damage over 100.

pappo
12-01-2016, 03:21 PM
Ok, it's like wielding two weapons with no feats gives the off hand weapons a 20% base to hit, 2handers, Daxes, and bastards all have a base chance to glancing blow with 20% of the weapons base damage. The THF feats each raise this chance by 10% with the first and third feat allowing GBs to be produced always on the third and fourth swing as opposed to the chance. so by greater THF, you make GBs on the first, third, and fourth swing in the attack sequence with a minimum of 50% of the weapons base damage. The feats also give 6 melee power, which becomes 6% damage as your weapon and dmg stat start pusing base damage over 100.

Ok, that makes sense now. Thank you all for your patience.

Sehenry03
12-16-2016, 02:29 PM
I have been gone for a year and the bard swashie was my favorite build then. I loved the rogue version for traps but also the barb version for the extra speed.

Currently are either of them or both still viable for LE content now? I am not sure which version the game is at now and if anything has been gimped. Keep in mind I had good gear from a year ago and nothing from any content since.

Raiztlin75
01-24-2017, 11:33 AM
Hello All

I am just returning to the game and wanted to start fresh and make this build Is there a viable first life 32 point build no tomes needed option i mean it doesnt have to be able to solo LE content just be playable i do have harper and pdk any advice helpful oh and trapping not required i prefer not to spread myself to thin but if its possible then lets do it


Thank you in advance

unbongwah
01-24-2017, 12:29 PM
Is there a viable first life 32 point build no tomes needed option
Yes. (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446859-The-Icebreaker-A-Freezing-Warchanter-Bard?p=5873493&viewfull=1#post5873493) :)

jimkromann
03-03-2017, 04:33 AM
This is what i came up with from this build (32 points, no reincarnations or tomes)




Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 4.34.201
DDO Character Planner Home Page https://github.com/DDOCharPlanner/DDOCharPlannerV4/releases

Warchanter Freezing
Level 30 Neutral Good Purple Dragon Knight Male
(6 Fighter / 2 Rogue / 12 Bard / 10 Epic)
Hit Points: 381
Spell Points: 649

BAB: 16/16/21/26/26
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 13
Will: 16

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 30)
Strength 16 16
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 14 15
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 18 22

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Skill Ranks Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 30)
Balance 0 20
Bluff 0 16
Concentration 0 12
Diplomacy 0 16
Disable Device n/a 23
Haggle 0 16
Heal 0 9
Hide 0 9
Intimidate 0 16
Jump 2 16
Listen 0 9
Move Silently 0 9
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a 39
Repair 0 9
Search 2 23
Spellcraft 0 9
Spot 0 9
Swim 2 16
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a 39

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness

Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery

Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality

Level 4 (Rogue)

Level 5 (Fighter)

Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Great Cleave
Feat: (Selected) Single Weapon Fighting

Level 7 (Bard)

Level 8 (Bard)

Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Single Weapon Fighting

Level 10 (Bard)

Level 11 (Fighter)

Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery

Level 13 (Bard)

Level 14 (Bard)

Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Single Weapon Fighting

Level 16 (Bard)

Level 17 (Bard)

Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell

Level 19 (Bard)

Level 20 (Bard)

Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical

Level 22 (Epic)

Level 23 (Epic)

Level 24 (Epic)

Level 25 (Epic)

Level 26 (Epic)

Level 27 (Epic)

Level 28 (Epic)

Leveel 29 (Epic)

Level 30 (Epic)
Enhancement: Purple Dragon Knight - Human Versatility: Defense Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Purple Dragon Knight - Human Adaptability: Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Purple Dragon Knight - Cormyrean Knight Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Skaldic Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Inspired Bravery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - The Poetic Edda (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Enchant Weapon (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Rough and Ready (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Rough and Ready (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Rough and Ready (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Iced Edges (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Iced Edges (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Iced Edges (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Ironskin Chant (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Ironskin Chant (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Ironskin Chant (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - High Spirits (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - High Spirits (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - High Spirits (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Frozen Fury (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Frozen Fury (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Frozen Fury (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Reckless Chant (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Reckless Chant (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Reckless Chant (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Armorer (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Northwind (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Northwind (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Northwind (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Chant of Power (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Chant of Power (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Howl of the North (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Spinning Ice (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Spinning Ice (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Spinning Ice (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Kingly Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Kingly Recovery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Kingly Recovery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Confidence (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - On Your Toes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - On Your Toes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - On Your Toes (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Tavern Shanties (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Limber Up (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Deflect Arrows (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Fast Movement (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Skirmisher (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Smooth Flourishes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Item Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Item Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Item Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defensive Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defensive Mastery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defensive Mastery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Armor Expertise (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Armor Expertise (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Armor Expertise (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 2)

billylawson99
06-22-2017, 05:53 PM
I played almost same build in several variants a while.

And I disagree in several points:
1) I think that 15 bard / 4 fighter / 1 wiz is better option - first of all you get extra feat, then you can get extra cleave on separate cooldown for 1 AP.
Yes, you will lose evasion, but now with PRR/MRR it is not that great.
It is kinda good to freeze crowd and then make 3 cleaves in a row and than makes few swings and make 2 cleaves again.
2) Destiny. Yes, crusader is good choice, but for me it is toooo slow.
My choice - Dreadnought becouse of that ability:
Combat Brute: Passive Bonus: You gain +1[W] damage with melee weapons and deal +50% damage to helpless opponents while any Action Boost is active.
I got all action boost from LD and all extra action boosts. So you can get 8(from LD)-11(extra boost from Kensai, but they pretty expensive)-12(ship buff)-13(with Alchemist's Pendant, propably, dont tested that) of each boost (Human Damage, LD Haste 3, LD Damage 1-3, LD attack 1, Sprint boost).
My favorite combination is Human Damage+LD Haste (which can be activate in same time) then make spinning ice and start to do cleaves.
You can activate one boost right after other.
3) In terms that you get a lot of extra damage using action boosts I get 3 lvl of action surge charisma (+3 cha while action boost active for more DC)
4) Feats to think:
Precision - Offensive Combat Stance: While using Precision mode, you gain +5% to hit and reduce the target's fortification against your attacks by 25%. (agains undeads, elementals and bosses).
Inspire Excellence - Inspire Excellence is a song granting +2 competence bonus to all stats for you and your allies.
Improved shield bush - Enables the character to retain the shield bonus to its Armor Class when using Shield Bash, and grants a 20% chance to make a secondary Shield Bash while attacking with a melee weapon. (with 6 fighter can get 40% proc). Only problem with that build that you actually dont get a lot of STR for shield attack and damage (but still it brings some extra damage and Sense Weackness works on it too).
If someone is interested I can post end game item build.



I tried too. Not great, but it is something.
Stunning Shield DC applies bonus to freezing and stack with kensai.
Doubt about follow up.
Know the Angles stacks with CKT.


This looks like an awesome build

i was wondering if you could give me a more in depth description on it.

when you took your levels bard/figher/wizard

what feats you took and when.

unbongwah
01-05-2018, 10:27 AM
The latest patch (http://ddowiki.com/page/Update_37_Patch_1_Release_Notes) reduced the minimum level requirements for tomes so they apply much earlier than they did before. Basically everything has been moved down 8 levels: i.e., +3 applies at lvl 3 instead of lvl 11, +4 applies at lvl 7 instead of lvl 15, etc. For those with +7s (soon +8s) to their stats, it means they can meet stat pre-reqs a lot earlier than they could before.

Between that and the extra APs you can earn thru racial reincarnation, I thought I'd take a stab at updating this build for U37. I'll settle for "just" a +6 Supreme tome, though. :cool:

PDK Freezechanter (U37)
15/3/2 Bard/Fighter/Rogue
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter 6. Bard 11. Fighter 16. Bard
2. Rogue 7. Bard 12. Fighter 17. Bard
3. Bard 8. Bard 13. Bard 18. Bard
4. Bard 9. Bard 14. Bard 19. Bard
5. Bard 10. Bard 15. Rogue 20. Bard


Stats
36pt Tome Level Up
---- ---- --------
Strength 8 +6 4: CHA
Dexterity 8 +6 8: CHA
Constitution 16 +6 12: CHA
Intelligence 16 +6 16: CHA
Wisdom 8 +6 20: CHA
Charisma 18 +6 24: CHA
28: CHA

Skills
F R B B B B B B B B F F B B R B B B B B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
------------------------------------------------------------
Perform 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 3 1 2 1 1 1 1 23
Spellcr 2 5 1 2 2 2 2 3 1 1 1 1 23
Disable 5 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 23
Open Lo 5 13 1 1 1 1 1 23
Search 2 3 2 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 23
Spot 2 1 2 3 2 2 2 2 1 2 2 2 23
UMD 1 1 5 1 1 1 1 1 1 3 1 2 1 1 1 1 23
Balance 2 4 1 7
Heal 2 1 1 4
Jump 4 4
Tumble 1 1
------------------------------------------------------------
24 13 11 11 11 11 12 12 12 12 8 8 12 12 15 13 13 13 13 13


Feats

1 : Shield Mastery
1 PDK : Insightful Reflexes
1 Fighter: Single Weapon Fighting
3 : Quicken Spell
6 : Spell Focus: Evocation
9 : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
11 Fighter: Improved Critical: Piercing
12 : Improved Shield Mastery
15 : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
18 : Precision
21 Epic : Inspire Excellence
24 Epic : Burst of Glacial Wrath
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic : Overwhelming Critical
28 Destiny: Hellball OR Perfect Single Weapon Fighting OR Lasting Inspiration
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Deific Warding
30 Epic : Epic Damage Reduction OR Empower Healing Spell OR Completionist
30 Legend : Scion of: Plane of Air


Enhancements (80+3 AP)

Warchanter (41 AP)

Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism, Fighting Spirit

Poetic Edda II, Enchant Weapon
Arcane Shield Chant III, Iced Edges III, Sprint Boost I
Ironskin Chant III, Frozen Fury III
Reckless Chant III, Northwind III
Expeditious Chant III, Chant of Power III, Howl of the North, Spinning Ice III



Swashbuckler (14 AP)

Confidence, Swashbuckling, Uncanny Dodge

Blow By Blow: Melee III, Tavern Shanties I
Deflect Arrows, Fast Movement
Elegant Footwork, Skirmisher



Stalwart Defender (13 AP)

Toughness, Stalwart Defense

Item Defense I, Durable Defense III
Resilient Defense III, Instinctive Defense I
Tenacious Defense III



Harper Agent (7 AP)

Agent of Good I

Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness II
Know the Angles II



Kensei (5 AP)

Kensei Focus: Light Blades

Extra Action Boost II



Purple Dragon Knight (3 AP)

Damage Boost

Cormyrean Knight Training




Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought

Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost III, Constitution
Damage Boost III, Constitution
Haste Boost III
Volcano's Edge
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz


Twists of Fate (35 fate points)

Energy Burst: Electricity (Tier 4 Draconic)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
School Specialist: Evocation (Tier 2 Magister)


Features:

3 different AoE stuns: Spinning Ice, Burst of Glacial Wrath, Dire Charge
1 single-target stun: Frozen Fury
AoE caster DPS: Energy Burst and Hellball
Usual Swashbuckler+Warchanter melee DPS


Combat rotation vs trash mobs is basically: proc an AoE stun; activate an action boost to engage Combat Brute (+50% dmg vs helpless mobs); fire off your AoEs (i.e., Energy Burst, Hellball, etc.); melee any survivors; rinse, repeat.

EDIT: I considered adding the PA/CL/GC chain for two more AoEs, of course, but you can see this build is a bit feat-constrained; not sure what I would drop to make room for them. Maybe on a bard 12 / ftr 6 / rog 2 split, which is a net gain of 3 feats (+2 ftr and dropping Inspire Excellence).

Another option: bard 16 / ftr 3 / FvS 1 so you can take Divine Presence instead of Know the Angles. Pros: higher melee DPS & DCs, unlocks Heal skill for more Positive Spellpower. Cons: lose trap skills and Evasion (unless you run in Shadowdancer instead of LD but you lose a lot of DPS w/out Blitz+Combat Brute).

A third option if you're willing to LR +1 out of that fighter level: bard 16 / rog 2-3 / FvS 1-2. That lets you keep Evasion & trap skills while also having Divine Presence; but you lose the extra feats and defensive benefits from ftr.

pappo
01-05-2018, 05:20 PM
Destiny

Twists of Fate (35 fate points)

Energy Burst: Electricity (Tier 4 Draconic)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
School Specialist: Evocation (Tier 2 Magister)




I see the twists but not the Destiny you recommend.

Hjarki
01-06-2018, 01:37 AM
Another option: bard 16 / ftr 3 / FvS 1 so you can take Divine Presence instead of Know the Angles. Pros: higher melee DPS & DCs, unlocks Heal skill for more Positive Spellpower. Cons: lose trap skills and Evasion (unless you run in Shadowdancer instead of LD but you lose a lot of DPS w/out Blitz+Combat Brute).

I think this probably works better as a more focused pure melee build (sample build below).


Full Melee Freeze
18/1/1 Bard/Fighter/Favored Soul
True Neutral Human


Level Order

1. Bard . . . . . .6. Bard . . . . . 11. Bard . . . . . 16. Bard
2. Fighter . . . . 7. Bard. . . . . .12. Bard. . . . . .17. Bard
3. Bard . . . . . .8. Bard . . . . . 13. Bard . . . . . 18. Bard
4. Favored Soul. . 9. Bard. . . . . .14. Bard. . . . . .19. Bard
5. Bard . . . . . 10. Bard . . . . . 15. Bard . . . . . 20. Bard


Stats
. . . . . . . .28pt . . 34pt. . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .---- . . ----. . .--------
Strength. . . . 14. . . .14 . . . 14. . . .+7. . . .4: CHA
Dexterity . . . 14. . . .14 . . . 14. . . .+7. . . .8: CHA
Constitution. . 14. . . .14 . . . 15. . . .+7. . . 12: CHA
Intelligence. . .8. . . . 8 . . . .8. . . .+7. . . 16: CHA
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . . 8 . . . .8. . . .+7. . . 20: CHA
Charisma. . . . 16. . . .18 . . . 18. . . .+7. . . 24: CHA
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: CHA

Skills
. . . . .Bd Fi Bd Fv Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd
. . . . . 1. 2 .3 .4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Perform . 4. . .2 . . 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Heal. . . . . . . .2. 1½ 2½ 3. 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Diplo . . 4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3. 2. 2. 3. 3. 3. 1. 1. 1. 23
UMD . . . 4. . .2 . . . . . . .1 .3 .3 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
Jump. . . 4. 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1 .3 .3 .3 .15
Bluff . . . . . . . . . . . . .1 .1 .1 .3 . . 1. 1. 1. 1. . . . . . . 10
Balance . 4. . .2 . . 1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Tumble. . 4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Swim. . . . .1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .24. 2 .6 .2. 6. 6. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 8. 8. 8. 8. 8. 8


Feats

.1. . . . : Power Attack
.1 Human. : Single Weapon Fighting
.2 Fighter: Cleave
.3. . . . : Shield Mastery
.6. . . . : Great Cleave
.9. . . . : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
12. . . . : Improved Critical: Piercing
15. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
18. . . . : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
21 Epic . : Inspire Excellence
24 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
26 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Quicken Spell
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic . : Force of Personality
30 Legend : Scion of: Astral Plane

.4 Deity. : Follower of: The Blood of Vol


Spells

Bard Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Focusing Chant, Sonic Blast, Merfolk's Blessing
Blur, Invisibility, Rage, Cure Moderate Wounds, Eagle's Splendor
Displacement, Haste, Crushing Despair, Deep Slumber, <Any>
Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Otto's Sphere of Dancing, Cure Critical Wounds
Shadow Walk, Greater Dispel Magic, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Mind Fog
Heroes' Feast, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Greater Shout
Favored Soul Nightshield, Protection from Evil

Enhancements (80 AP)

Warchanter (40 AP) Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism, Fighting Spirit, Victory Song Inspired Bravery I, Rough and Ready III
Iced Edges III, Sprint Boost III
Ironskin Chant III, Frozen Fury III, Charisma
Reckless Chant III, Northwind III
Chant of Power III, Howl of the North, Spinning Ice III
Swashbuckler (18 AP) Confidence, Swashbuckling, Uncanny Dodge On Your Toes III, Tavern Shanties I
Fast Movement, Double Strike Boost III
Skirmisher, Smooth Flourishes
Vistani Knife Fighter (11 AP) Knife Expertise, Knife Juggler, Knife Specialist Mist Stalker, Rapid Attack
Bleeding Cuts, Mist Stalker
War Soul (4 AP) Smite Foe Divine Presence III
Human (4 AP) Damage Boost Action Surge: Charisma III
Kensei (3 AP) Kensei Focus: Light Blades Extra Action Boost I

Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost III
Momentum Swing III, Damage Boost III
Lay Waste, Critical Damage I, Haste Boost III
(none)
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz
Twists of Fate (30 fate points) Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury)

This is far more friendly to new players (inasmuch as a build with a tree that either requires $80 or a wait until March as can be 'newbie friendly'). Note that Human and PDK are interchangeable here (since no use of any AP that aren't common to both), but being able to take Bard 1st level saves a few skill points.

I'm not a big fan of the quasi-spellcasting emphasis. Thematically, Burst of Glacial Wrath is fantastic and having the additional (lower) cooldown freezing ability is great - but the gulf in DC between the spell/melee freezing abilities probably means it's only useful against trivial content. PDK + Divine Presence is better than Human + Smooth Flourishes + Divine Presence, but if we're talking about PDK w/o Divine Presence builds then we're talking about DC levels that Human + Divine Presence hits easily. Likewise, the spell damage isn't well-supported in comparison to Cleave/Great Cleave/Lay Waste.

What really sells me on this approach is the significant difference in melee damage. The above build will probably do +30% to +40% more damage than what you're suggesting - and that's worth a fair bit of sacrifice.

skorpeon
01-06-2018, 11:20 AM
I think this probably works better as a more focused pure melee build (sample build below).


Full Melee Freeze
18/1/1 Bard/Fighter/Favored Soul
True Neutral Human


Level Order

1. Bard . . . . . .6. Bard . . . . . 11. Bard . . . . . 16. Bard
2. Fighter . . . . 7. Bard. . . . . .12. Bard. . . . . .17. Bard
3. Bard . . . . . .8. Bard . . . . . 13. Bard . . . . . 18. Bard
4. Favored Soul. . 9. Bard. . . . . .14. Bard. . . . . .19. Bard
5. Bard . . . . . 10. Bard . . . . . 15. Bard . . . . . 20. Bard


Stats
. . . . . . . .28pt . . 34pt. . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .---- . . ----. . .--------
Strength. . . . 14. . . .14 . . . 14. . . .+7. . . .4: CHA
Dexterity . . . 14. . . .14 . . . 14. . . .+7. . . .8: CHA
Constitution. . 14. . . .14 . . . 15. . . .+7. . . 12: CHA
Intelligence. . .8. . . . 8 . . . .8. . . .+7. . . 16: CHA
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . . 8 . . . .8. . . .+7. . . 20: CHA
Charisma. . . . 16. . . .18 . . . 18. . . .+7. . . 24: CHA
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: CHA

Skills
. . . . .Bd Fi Bd Fv Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd
. . . . . 1. 2 .3 .4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Perform . 4. . .2 . . 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Heal. . . . . . . .2. 1½ 2½ 3. 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Diplo . . 4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3. 2. 2. 3. 3. 3. 1. 1. 1. 23
UMD . . . 4. . .2 . . . . . . .1 .3 .3 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
Jump. . . 4. 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1 .3 .3 .3 .15
Bluff . . . . . . . . . . . . .1 .1 .1 .3 . . 1. 1. 1. 1. . . . . . . 10
Balance . 4. . .2 . . 1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Tumble. . 4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Swim. . . . .1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .24. 2 .6 .2. 6. 6. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 7. 8. 8. 8. 8. 8. 8


Feats

.1. . . . : Power Attack
.1 Human. : Single Weapon Fighting
.2 Fighter: Cleave
.3. . . . : Shield Mastery
.6. . . . : Great Cleave
.9. . . . : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
12. . . . : Improved Critical: Piercing
15. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
18. . . . : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
21 Epic . : Inspire Excellence
24 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
26 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Quicken Spell
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic . : Force of Personality
30 Legend : Scion of: Astral Plane

.4 Deity. : Follower of: The Blood of Vol


Spells

Bard Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Focusing Chant, Sonic Blast, Merfolk's Blessing
Blur, Invisibility, Rage, Cure Moderate Wounds, Eagle's Splendor
Displacement, Haste, Crushing Despair, Deep Slumber, <Any>
Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Otto's Sphere of Dancing, Cure Critical Wounds
Shadow Walk, Greater Dispel Magic, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Mind Fog
Heroes' Feast, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Greater Shout
Favored Soul Nightshield, Protection from Evil

Enhancements (80 AP)

Warchanter (40 AP) Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism, Fighting Spirit, Victory Song Inspired Bravery I, Rough and Ready III
Iced Edges III, Sprint Boost III
Ironskin Chant III, Frozen Fury III, Charisma
Reckless Chant III, Northwind III
Chant of Power III, Howl of the North, Spinning Ice III
Swashbuckler (18 AP) Confidence, Swashbuckling, Uncanny Dodge On Your Toes III, Tavern Shanties I
Fast Movement, Double Strike Boost III
Skirmisher, Smooth Flourishes
Vistani Knife Fighter (11 AP) Knife Expertise, Knife Juggler, Knife Specialist Mist Stalker, Rapid Attack
Bleeding Cuts, Mist Stalker
War Soul (4 AP) Smite Foe Divine Presence III
Human (4 AP) Damage Boost Action Surge: Charisma III
Kensei (3 AP) Kensei Focus: Light Blades Extra Action Boost I

Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost III
Momentum Swing III, Damage Boost III
Lay Waste, Critical Damage I, Haste Boost III
(none)
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz
Twists of Fate (30 fate points) Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury)

This is far more friendly to new players (inasmuch as a build with a tree that either requires $80 or a wait until March as can be 'newbie friendly'). Note that Human and PDK are interchangeable here (since no use of any AP that aren't common to both), but being able to take Bard 1st level saves a few skill points.

I'm not a big fan of the quasi-spellcasting emphasis. Thematically, Burst of Glacial Wrath is fantastic and having the additional (lower) cooldown freezing ability is great - but the gulf in DC between the spell/melee freezing abilities probably means it's only useful against trivial content. PDK + Divine Presence is better than Human + Smooth Flourishes + Divine Presence, but if we're talking about PDK w/o Divine Presence builds then we're talking about DC levels that Human + Divine Presence hits easily. Likewise, the spell damage isn't well-supported in comparison to Cleave/Great Cleave/Lay Waste.

What really sells me on this approach is the significant difference in melee damage. The above build will probably do +30% to +40% more damage than what you're suggesting - and that's worth a fair bit of sacrifice.

OK this looks interesting, I have the knife fighter tree also and I would prefer to play from lvl 1 as I like the lower levels. I guess I would need knives (single only) of which I have a few. The new ones from raven loft and mabar would no doubt serve.

I would be tempted to try both the builds since it seems a waste to get gear and do just one life.

Hjarki you have any gear suggestions for leveling?

unbongwah
01-06-2018, 12:16 PM
I see the twists but not the Destiny you recommend.
I was sure I had it setup for LD. Sometimes the builder bugs out and my ED choices disappear.

EDIT: fixed ED.

Hjarki
01-06-2018, 03:00 PM
OK this looks interesting, I have the knife fighter tree also and I would prefer to play from lvl 1 as I like the lower levels. I guess I would need knives (single only) of which I have a few. The new ones from raven loft and mabar would no doubt serve. I would be tempted to try both the builds since it seems a waste to get gear and do just one life. Hjarki you have any gear suggestions for leveling?

I believe Ravenloft has a named +stunning buckler as well. I also haven't played the build, so a lot of the decisions were made on a the "this all has to fit at the end" rather than an en route basis.

Rethinking from that standpoint, I'd probably shift the Fighter/FvS levels to 5/6 to grab Great Cleave 2 levels earlier since Charisma isn't going to be that high in the first few levels. The delay in acquiring Quicken Spell (I have it listed somewhere in the epic levels almost as an afterthought since the only things you're likely to cast are heals and buffs) might justify taking Concentration - the only really critical skills are 7 Balance, Perform and UMD. Everything else is 'flavor as desired'. I tend to like skills such as Diplomacy because it can get a little awkward when you hit a quest dialog that requires it and everyone is looking at the Charisma-based Bard to deal with it. "Sorry, I'm not the talking-to-people type of Charisma Bard" tends to get blank stares.

In terms of enhancements, I'd probably start with Skaldic Rage (rather than Constitution). With only 4 less Strength than Charisma, you can play from level 1 as a Strength-based Bard for a long time, although fatigue can get a trifle annoying. The moment you take the FvS level, you should be able to toss 4 AP to get Divine Presence. Otherwise, you're trying to reach Frozen Fury in Warchanter.

Up to the teens, most of the rest probably goes towards hitting those tier 3 Swashbuckler abilities. Dashing Scoundrel is an incredible boost in damage early on; the only reason to take Skirmisher before epic levels is if you've got a great buckler you want to use (the aforementioned Ravenloft buckler probably qualifies for the massive +stunning bonuses). Smooth Flourishes probably doesn't pay off until the early teens when your Charisma really starts leaving Strength in the dust. Doublestrike Boost is incredible eventually, but can probably be limited to a single level early on to save on AP.

I'd probably hold off on Vistani until the mid-to-late teens. +20% attack speed is great long-term, but it doesn't help Cleave/Great Cleave/Freezing. Bleed-on-Vorpal is great once you've got Perfect SWF and are fighting enemies too tough for head-chopping, but during leveling it will mainly be wasted on mobs that die in short order anyway. Quickdraw doesn't really come into its own until you're rolling through endless Action Boosts with the LD destiny (and even then you're mainly just taking it because 1 AP for 5% doublestrike is nice). Moreover, not taking Vistani prevents you from being locked into a single weapon type. While you'll lose the +1 Follower of Vol bonus for not using a dagger, being able to seamlessly switch between your favorite light mace, handaxe or short sword is likely far more useful.

The Kensai AP are probably the last AP necessary - to some extent, it's a place to dump extra AP.

The Human AP are dependent on what else you've got. Sitting at level 30, +3 Charisma Action Surge might as well be a permanent +3 Charisma. But you're probably not going to have particularly useful Action Boosts early on - Sprint Boost is nice when you've got a pile of them and -33% cooldown, but it's not exactly a high priority for AP. Likewise, Doublestrike Boost is a fantastic boost to have on tap, but it's a ton of AP you don't strictly need to spend to get to where you want to go in the tree.

Lastly, I have to acknowledge that this build would work better as PDK. Shift some AP (probably from Kensai) to take CKT on top of Damage Boost/Action Surge. Then carry around both a dagger and a short sword. To freeze, Quickdraw to the Short Sword. To Rapid Slash, Quickdraw to the Dagger. Otherwise just use whichever is better. That being said, constantly swapping weapons every 5 - 10 secs on top of Action Boosts every 20 seconds would try my patience and - knowing myself - I'd probably just end up in "screw it... my freeze DC and hit are high enough" mode. If you're really OCD, you could ditch something like Force of Personality for IC: Slashing and take Headman's Chop - dagger every 10 secs for Rapid Slash, short sword for freezing, handaxe for damage. I suspect you'd probably end up losing more dps than you gained through all that weapon switching, though.

unbongwah
01-09-2018, 03:02 PM
I'm not a big fan of the quasi-spellcasting emphasis. Thematically, Burst of Glacial Wrath is fantastic and having the additional (lower) cooldown freezing ability is great - but the gulf in DC between the spell/melee freezing abilities probably means it's only useful against trivial content.
True enough and since I'm feat-constrained anyway on a 15/3/2 split, I could swap, say, Precision/SF:Evo/BoGW for PA+CL+GC; get more AoE melee DPS to make up for giving up on the caster side of things.

Since this thread has always been focused on PDK Warchanters, that's what I stuck with. As I said, you can use whichever combo of rog / ftr or ftr / FvS you want depending on whether Divine Presence or trapskills+Evasion are more important to you. PDK bard / rog / FvS is also possible but requires an LR +1, obviously.

lronEnema
01-10-2018, 05:04 AM
Hi Unbongwah

Love the 15/3/2 build, going to give it a try.

One question. At level 6 (and as a twist) you take Evocation focus. What does this help with?

Thanks

Edit - Ah got it - Glacial Wrath

unbongwah
01-10-2018, 10:22 AM
One question. At level 6 (and as a twist) you take Evocation focus. What does this help with?

Edit - Ah got it - Glacial Wrath
Correct. Hence why I said if you decide to drop BoGW, you might as well drop SF:Evo and the DC twist, since it doesn't boost anything else on this build. For better or worse, Energy Burst DC isn't affected by Evocation bonuses.

sapphire8104
01-17-2018, 10:54 PM
When cleaning up favourite folder,I find this page.Play DDO two years age,and it's the best Bard base build I think.I always recommend this one to new players,sadly,no one take it.:p

Maybe it's time to get 3 fighter past lives and make my Bard great again.

sapphire8104
01-17-2018, 11:01 PM
The latest patch (http://ddowiki.com/page/Update_37_Patch_1_Release_Notes) reduced the minimum level requirements for tomes so they apply much earlier than they did before. Basically everything has been moved down 8 levels: i.e., +3 applies at lvl 3 instead of lvl 11, +4 applies at lvl 7 instead of lvl 15, etc. For those with +7s (soon +8s) to their stats, it means they can meet stat pre-reqs a lot earlier than they could before.

Between that and the extra APs you can earn thru racial reincarnation, I thought I'd take a stab at updating this build for U37. I'll settle for "just" a +6 Supreme tome, though. :cool:

PDK Freezechanter (U37)
15/3/2 Bard/Fighter/Rogue
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter 6. Bard 11. Fighter 16. Bard
2. Rogue 7. Bard 12. Fighter 17. Bard
3. Bard 8. Bard 13. Bard 18. Bard
4. Bard 9. Bard 14. Bard 19. Bard
5. Bard 10. Bard 15. Rogue 20. Bard


Stats
36pt Tome Level Up
---- ---- --------
Strength 8 +6 4: CHA
Dexterity 8 +6 8: CHA
Constitution 16 +6 12: CHA
Intelligence 16 +6 16: CHA
Wisdom 8 +6 20: CHA
Charisma 18 +6 24: CHA
28: CHA

Skills
F R B B B B B B B B F F B B R B B B B B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
------------------------------------------------------------
Perform 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 3 1 2 1 1 1 1 23
Spellcr 2 5 1 2 2 2 2 3 1 1 1 1 23
Disable 5 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 23
Open Lo 5 13 1 1 1 1 1 23
Search 2 3 2 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 23
Spot 2 1 2 3 2 2 2 2 1 2 2 2 23
UMD 1 1 5 1 1 1 1 1 1 3 1 2 1 1 1 1 23
Balance 2 4 1 7
Heal 2 1 1 4
Jump 4 4
Tumble 1 1
------------------------------------------------------------
24 13 11 11 11 11 12 12 12 12 8 8 12 12 15 13 13 13 13 13


Feats

1 : Shield Mastery
1 PDK : Insightful Reflexes
1 Fighter: Single Weapon Fighting
3 : Quicken Spell
6 : Spell Focus: Evocation
9 : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
11 Fighter: Improved Critical: Piercing
12 : Improved Shield Mastery
15 : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
18 : Precision
21 Epic : Inspire Excellence
24 Epic : Burst of Glacial Wrath
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic : Overwhelming Critical
28 Destiny: Hellball OR Perfect Single Weapon Fighting OR Lasting Inspiration
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Deific Warding
30 Epic : Epic Damage Reduction OR Empower Healing Spell OR Completionist
30 Legend : Scion of: Plane of Air


Enhancements (80+3 AP)

Warchanter (41 AP)

Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism, Fighting Spirit

Poetic Edda II, Enchant Weapon
Arcane Shield Chant III, Iced Edges III, Sprint Boost I
Ironskin Chant III, Frozen Fury III
Reckless Chant III, Northwind III
Expeditious Chant III, Chant of Power III, Howl of the North, Spinning Ice III



Swashbuckler (14 AP)

Confidence, Swashbuckling, Uncanny Dodge

Blow By Blow: Melee III, Tavern Shanties I
Deflect Arrows, Fast Movement
Elegant Footwork, Skirmisher



Stalwart Defender (13 AP)

Toughness, Stalwart Defense

Item Defense I, Durable Defense III
Resilient Defense III, Instinctive Defense I
Tenacious Defense III



Harper Agent (7 AP)

Agent of Good I

Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness II
Know the Angles II



Kensei (5 AP)

Kensei Focus: Light Blades

Extra Action Boost II



Purple Dragon Knight (3 AP)

Damage Boost

Cormyrean Knight Training




Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought

Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost III, Constitution
Damage Boost III, Constitution
Haste Boost III
Volcano's Edge
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz


Twists of Fate (35 fate points)

Energy Burst: Electricity (Tier 4 Draconic)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
School Specialist: Evocation (Tier 2 Magister)


Features:

3 different AoE stuns: Spinning Ice, Burst of Glacial Wrath, Dire Charge
1 single-target stun: Frozen Fury
AoE caster DPS: Energy Burst and Hellball
Usual Swashbuckler+Warchanter melee DPS


Combat rotation vs trash mobs is basically: proc an AoE stun; activate an action boost to engage Combat Brute (+50% dmg vs helpless mobs); fire off your AoEs (i.e., Energy Burst, Hellball, etc.); melee any survivors; rinse, repeat.

EDIT: I considered adding the PA/CL/GC chain for two more AoEs, of course, but you can see this build is a bit feat-constrained; not sure what I would drop to make room for them. Maybe on a bard 12 / ftr 6 / rog 2 split, which is a net gain of 3 feats (+2 ftr and dropping Inspire Excellence).

Another option: bard 16 / ftr 3 / FvS 1 so you can take Divine Presence instead of Know the Angles. Pros: higher melee DPS & DCs, unlocks Heal skill for more Positive Spellpower. Cons: lose trap skills and Evasion (unless you run in Shadowdancer instead of LD but you lose a lot of DPS w/out Blitz+Combat Brute).

A third option if you're willing to LR +1 out of that fighter level: bard 16 / rog 2-3 / FvS 1-2. That lets you keep Evasion & trap skills while also having Divine Presence; but you lose the extra feats and defensive benefits from ftr.

Just come to say hi and thank you for the update.

unbongwah
02-02-2018, 06:45 PM
For someone who would rather have Cleaves instead of Burst of Glacial Wrath:

PDK FreezeCleaver
15/3/2 Bard/Fighter/Rogue
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter 6. Bard 11. Fighter 16. Bard
2. Rogue 7. Bard 12. Fighter 17. Bard
3. Bard 8. Bard 13. Bard 18. Bard
4. Bard 9. Bard 14. Bard 19. Bard
5. Bard 10. Bard 15. Rogue 20. Bard


Stats
36pt Tome Level Up
---- ---- --------
Strength 10 +6 4: CHA
Dexterity 8 +6 8: CHA
Constitution 15 +6 12: CHA
Intelligence 16 +6 16: CHA
Wisdom 8 +6 20: CHA
Charisma 18 +6 24: CHA
28: CHA

Skills
F R B B B B B B B B F F B B R B B B B B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
------------------------------------------------------------
Perform 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 3 1 2 1 1 1 1 23
Spellcr 2 5 1 2 2 2 2 3 1 1 1 1 23
Disable 5 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 23
Open Lo 5 13 1 1 1 1 1 23
Search 2 3 2 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 23
Spot 2 1 2 3 2 2 2 2 1 2 2 2 23
UMD 1 1 5 1 1 1 1 1 1 3 1 2 1 1 1 1 23
Balance 2 4 1 7
Heal 2 1 1 4
Jump 4 4
Tumble 1 1
------------------------------------------------------------
24 13 11 11 11 11 12 12 12 12 8 8 12 12 15 13 13 13 13 13


Feats

1 : Shield Mastery
1 PDK : Insightful Reflexes
1 Fighter: Single Weapon Fighting
3 : Power Attack
6 : Cleave
9 : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
11 Fighter: Improved Critical: Piercing
12 : Quicken Spell
15 : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
18 : Great Cleave
21 Epic : Inspire Excellence
24 Epic : Improved Shield Mastery
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic : Overwhelming Critical
28 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting OR Lasting Inspiration
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Deific Warding
30 Epic : Epic Damage Reduction OR Empower Healing Spell OR Completionist
30 Legend : Scion of: Plane of Earth OR Arborea


Enhancements (80+2 AP)

Warchanter (41 AP)

Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism, Fighting Spirit

Poetic Edda II, Enchant Weapon
Arcane Shield Chant III, Iced Edges III, Sprint Boost I
Ironskin Chant III, Frozen Fury III
Reckless Chant III, Northwind III
Expeditious Chant III, Chant of Power III, Howl of the North, Spinning Ice III



Swashbuckler (14 AP)

Confidence, Swashbuckling, Uncanny Dodge

Tavern Shanties I, Limber Up III
Fast Movement, Double Strike Boost I
Elegant Footwork, Skirmisher



Stalwart Defender (13 AP)

Toughness, Stalwart Defense

Item Defense I, Durable Defense III
Resilient Defense III, Instinctive Defense I
Tenacious Defense III



Harper Agent (8 AP)

Agent of Good I

Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness II
Know the Angles III



Purple Dragon Knight (3 AP)

Damage Boost

Cormyrean Knight Training



Kensei (3 AP)

Kensei Focus: Light Blades

Extra Action Boost I




Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought

Legendary Tactics II, Extra Action Boost III
Momentum Swing III, Imp. Power Attack, Damage Boost III
Lay Waste, Haste Boost III
(none)
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz


Twists of Fate (35 fate points)

Energy Burst: Acid (Tier 4 Draconic) OR Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)
Brace for Impact (Tier 1 Sentinel)

DarkSable
02-04-2018, 01:16 AM
I'm going to go give it a test right now, but...

Does anybody happen to know if the new Favored Soul enhancement 'Divine Presence' stacks with PDK training?

If so, that opens up some insane DCs. If not, it lets me pick a prettier race, which is just as good! (Though I'm not sure if I can get CHA to attack with TWF somehow. That might be painful.)

EDIT: We good, boys. DC, here we come!

unbongwah
02-04-2018, 10:41 AM
(Though I'm not sure if I can get CHA to attack with TWF somehow. That might be painful.)
This is drifting from the original topic, but you have three options for CHA to-hit and dmg on a TWF build:

PDK with racial weapons (short-,long-, or bastard swords)
FvS using deity weapons + Grace of Battle (Blood of Vol + Vistani being the obvious choice)
named weapons (http://ddowiki.com/page/List_of_weapons_with_unusual_attack_or_damage_mods ) which natively support CHA: there's only a few of which Dynastic Falcata is the best option

Xandez
03-08-2018, 05:01 PM
This is drifting from the original topic, but you have three options for CHA to-hit and dmg on a TWF build:

PDK with racial weapons (short-,long-, or bastard swords)
FvS using deity weapons + Grace of Battle (Blood of Vol + Vistani being the obvious choice)
named weapons (http://ddowiki.com/page/List_of_weapons_with_unusual_attack_or_damage_mods ) which natively support CHA: there's only a few of which Dynastic Falcata is the best option


Grace of Battle ability description says: "This benefit only applies if your Favored Soul level is equal to or greater than half of your total Heroic Character level."
This how it is now, or working with fewer lvls?

DrawingGuy
03-08-2018, 09:44 PM
Grace of Battle ability description says: "This benefit only applies if your Favored Soul level is equal to or greater than half of your total Heroic Character level."
This how it is now, or working with fewer lvls?

It wouldn't work - you would need a split that does that. A few examples:

12 Favored Soul / 6 Bard / 2 Rogue -- Vistani / Blood of Vol / Dragonborn (White)
-- This split gets trapping, full Heal spell, cha to attack/dmg, Evo bonuses if you roll Glacial Wrath and Ice breath if you're looking for a more Ice themed build

10 FvS / 6 Fighter/ 4 Bard -- Silvanus / PdK
-- This split forgoes T5 Warchanter in favor of T5 Kensai. This is to go for the full beans of the potential Maul crit profile.


However, no matter what split you make, I don't think it is worth it. One of the major powers of Bard's freezing line is its duration, though it is tied to Bard level. You want 12+ bard for perma-freezing, and any majority FvS split I find counter-productive to a freezing bard build. The thing is, though, if you're looking for max DCs, PdK with a sword is already perfect and gives you CHA to attack/dmg. I see no reason to leave that.

You can easily throw two short/regular/bastard swords into the hands of a PDK to get CHA to attack/dmg if TWF is your goal, though SWF has two distinct advantages:
-- Swashbuckling with shorts gives you your crit profile and the ability to use Shield Mastery with a buckler to stack up PRR and doublestrike onto the solid attack speed and 1.5 stat SWF can get
-- Perfect Single Weapon Fighting doubles your vorpal chance to 19-20. You freeze on Vorpals. I would not want to give this up.

Really the only question I see is if you want to give up the PDK tactics bonus and CHA to attack so you could roll a Savior light hammer and Pulverizer (and open up race options). This is likely one of the best DPS options (assuming you don't get relegated to grazing hits from the attack loss), and the path I would take on any non-PDK. However the game is flush with great short swords, including the ability to get glancing blow damage on cleaves with the various sunswords. So while there are plenty of options for a melee Bard, few have as many synergies as a PDK bard with a short sword.

Personally I'm liking the thought of a 15 bard / 4 fighter / 1 fvs build. Higher DCs and damage, Nightshield, full Heal skill, no need for INT investment (no KtA and no trapping) or swaps, extra feat. Roll in Medium armor for no MRR cap and more PRR to make up for the Evasion loss.

unbongwah
03-09-2018, 09:44 AM
Personally I'm liking the thought of a 15 bard / 4 fighter / 1 fvs build. Higher DCs and damage, Nightshield, full Heal skill, no need for INT investment (no KtA and no trapping) or swaps, extra feat. Roll in Medium armor for no MRR cap and more PRR to make up for the Evasion loss.
Swashbuckling requires light armor. You will take a major DPS hit with that split if you give up Swashbuckling.

adrian69
03-09-2018, 02:25 PM
Swashbuckling requires light armor. You will take a major DPS hit with that split if you give up Swashbuckling.
Sadly yes. I've always felt bard should be the one exception to evasion and medium armor, but implementing it has held me back from even tossing the idea out there, as it should probably be in core 4 or tier 5 and only accessible on 12+bard splash. Wishful thinking though.



It wouldn't work - you would need a split that does that. A few examples:


Personally I'm liking the thought of a 15 bard / 4 fighter / 1 fvs build. Higher DCs and damage, Nightshield, full Heal skill, no need for INT investment (no KtA and no trapping) or swaps, extra feat. Roll in Medium armor for no MRR cap and more PRR to make up for the Evasion loss.

I prefer the 15 (14)/ 3 (4) Fighter/ 2 Rogue Intel Split over all with a hand axe or pick for freezing swashbucklers. My issue with these builds is always AP being super tight. 21-23 Swash, 6 SD, 8 Harper, rest in rest in Warchanter. Of course, 13 in SD for Tenacious Def and 4 in Spellsinger for +20 song duration would be nice if you there's enough AP to take.

14 bard gets extra feats from fighter (2 as you are not taking Inspire Excellence at 24 vs 15 and getting Inspire Excellence at 24 for +2 to stats.

DrawingGuy
03-09-2018, 03:56 PM
Swashbuckling requires light armor. You will take a major DPS hit with that split if you give up Swashbuckling.

Correct - brain fart there. Point lost in my head for that build. Some build that rolled TWF or THF could do that as you'd be forgoing Swash anyways, but stupid to give it up while SWF.

@Adrian - I do agree. 15/3/2 has evasion and trapping -- or before the fighter pass that lowered the Defender stance core, 12/6/2. It is a build I called the "jack of all trades" as it has trapping, buffing, healing, CC, and still pretty darn tanky due to the dodge, PRR and HP it gained. Played such splits on multiple occasions, and prefer it over pure melee Bards.

As for weapon choices - I understand handaxes, but light picks have lower damage die and swash gives less crit range to make up for the x4 multiplier. Handaxes would still get the same multiplier on 19-20 from LD as well. Ultimately Bard doesn't care as long as it's a (light) weapon for swashing. My favorite considerations:

- Short Swords: This will be the highest DC weapon in the hands of a PDK. There are many good named ones throughout leveling, and certain ones can get glancing blow damage while SWF. They, however, do not have the best crit damage or multiplier available to a Bard.

- Light Mace: Aasimar Scourge has presented an interesting option for bards here if you have the Racial past lives to support it (and don't mind losing the Human bonus feat and skill points): +1 sacred multiplier. Add in the +1 threat range from Pulverizer, and you have one of the best crit profiles possible for a 15/3/2 split.

- Rapier: Due to the way Imp Crit was changed, better base crit ranges equate to better crit chances, giving Rapier and Kukris the best crit ranges. However rapier has higher base damage and better named options, which places this higher on the list for me.

- Light Hammer: Another weapon to take advantage of Pulverizer, and Ravenloft introduced an amazing one that is 1d8+3 base (one of the highest for a light weapon), has 3x 9d6 damage procs, and a paralyze proc. Pretty drool worthy imo.

- Hand Axe: Discussed earlier as it has 19-20 multiplier bonus in LD. Anvil is also a pretty nice move for stun on crit taking advantage of Swash's crit profil.

The other weapons have lower base die, lower crit profiles, and/or cannot take advantage of other bonuses from trees to further improve them. Daggers come close as there are some very good named options and the Vistani tree exists, but the build is too AP strapped to come close to taking proper advantage of the tree without sacrificing elsewhere.

Hjarki
03-10-2018, 09:14 PM
The other weapons have lower base die, lower crit profiles, and/or cannot take advantage of other bonuses from trees to further improve them. Daggers come close as there are some very good named options and the Vistani tree exists, but the build is too AP strapped to come close to taking proper advantage of the tree without sacrificing elsewhere.

Honestly, after playing around with Vistani for a while, I think "sacrifice elsewhere" is the right answer. It's hard to explain just how wildly overpowered +25% Doublestrike on top of +10% Doublestrike passive is with a SWF - it's immediately noticeable how much better it is than scraping up another +1 multiplier or threat range on some conventional weapon. Likewise, Fan of Knives is an incredible ability - on my last life, I'd walk into rooms, Color Spray, Wellspring, Fan of Knives and watch the entire room simply disappear (this wouldn't work on a conventional Bard build for a number of reasons, but FoK is still amazing).

5th Tier and above is a bit 'meh' for a Bard build, but the rest of it (including the chain leading up to immunity to Energy Drain) really pushes daggers out in front of any other weapon possibility for a SWF fighter. You'd need a very good justification to pass on it.

I'm also not sure that LD will be a decent choice for Destiny after the upcoming changes. Getting +60 MP from Fatesinger cores would really make it difficult for LD to compete damage-wise given the top end of Fatesinger (the bottom end is admittedly weak).

Niminae
03-11-2018, 09:43 AM
@Adrian - I do agree. 15/3/2 has evasion and trapping -- or before the fighter pass that lowered the Defender stance core, 12/6/2. It is a build I called the "jack of all trades" as it has trapping, buffing, healing, CC, and still pretty darn tanky due to the dodge, PRR and HP it gained. Played such splits on multiple occasions, and prefer it over pure melee Bards.

4 Fighter gives access to Tactical Training for +2 to your freeze DCs, something I don't think I've seen used in any build in the thread. Plus 4 Fighter gives a third feat so it pays for itself. The wiki doesn't list the Tactical line as being Fighter bonus feats, but that has to be an error, right? They were introduced at the same time as the Heavy Armor line of feats and are also Fighter only, and those are fighter bonus feats.

DrawingGuy
03-11-2018, 02:04 PM
@Niminae - Yes, those feats can be selected as a fighter bonus feat. However it takes 15 Bard to get Inspire Excellence - giving everyone +2 to all stats means 30+ to HP for everyone, +1 to all saves, +1 to all skills, and most importantly, +1 to all DCs. +1 to everything for everyone in part is easily worth the feat slot and losing the fighter feat IMO. I'd need to be gaining a lot more, only solo, or static party with another bard that carries it before I'd consider dropping it.

@Hjarki - There's no denying the power of Vistani -- went through multiple Vistani builds, and a Vistani Bard is one I might do as well... especially if they ever fix Single Dagger to work with quilified SWF instead of just empty offhand. But losses to consider would be Stalwart, which is a loss of notably 25 PRR/MRR and 20% HP (which is a big deal with Reaper inflated HP). Swash is pretty much a must up to at least Skirmisher + Uncanny + CHA damage. Warchanter and its freezing line is what this thread is all about, so dropping freezing cleave makes the build irrelevant to this thread. Harper's KtA is a large chunk of DCs (10-15), insightful damage, and an attack option as you're losing CHA to attack. And a cheap dip into Spellsinger for 60% song duration is strong, especially if you're considering running Fatesinger. You can definitely make it work, and come out with superior DPS, but the sacrifices are real.

As for Legendary Dreadnaught vs Fatesinger, Fatesinger is likely the stronger burst, but the problem is the uptime. Legendary Dreadnaught is not only giving you 18 + 70 Melee Power, but also +1[W], 50% helpless damage (which is something you excel at qualifying for on this build), 100% action boost uptime, haste and power boosts, more Prowess uptime with shorter boost CDs and more boost options on separate CDs, 19-20 crit muliplier that also will work with your buckler bashes, stacking crit damage, momentum swing and lay waste... all along with a stun breaker, 25% damage reduction boost, and 30 PRR. If you are not running cleaves (a mistake imo), that does make LD lose some of its importance, but I'd eat my own hair if Fatesinger was superior DPS to LD even after the MP boost.

Hjarki
03-12-2018, 03:26 PM
As for Legendary Dreadnaught vs Fatesinger, Fatesinger is likely the stronger burst, but the problem is the uptime. Legendary Dreadnaught is not only giving you 18 + 70 Melee Power, but also +1[W], 50% helpless damage (which is something you excel at qualifying for on this build), 100% action boost uptime, haste and power boosts, more Prowess uptime with shorter boost CDs and more boost options on separate CDs, 19-20 crit muliplier that also will work with your buckler bashes, stacking crit damage, momentum swing and lay waste... all along with a stun breaker, 25% damage reduction boost, and 30 PRR. If you are not running cleaves (a mistake imo), that does make LD lose some of its importance, but I'd eat my own hair if Fatesinger was superior DPS to LD even after the MP boost.

This paragraph bothers me a bit. Not necessarily that you're wrong so much as you're talking about a lot of things that are very important to Monks and Barbarians... and not so much to Swashbucklers. Consider:

1. +1[w]. If you have a d20 die type, this is a big deal. If you have a d6 die type, not so much. You'll notice both you and I discussed Vistani without ever bothering to mention that it provides +1[w] to daggers because it's simply not a critical feature of the tree.

2. Action boosts. One of the major differences between the Barbarian/Monk and the Swashbuckler is the balance of damage arising from the basic weapon vs. the damage arising from the additional features. What this means in practice is that benefits like Melee Power are far less effective for Swashbucklers than Barbarians/Monks, while Haste/Doublestrike are far more. However, Doublestrike is capped so you very quickly hit the point where it doesn't make sense to have an action boost for it. Haste remains good, but it's of no benefit to cooldown attacks.

3. Cleave/Great Cleave. The Momentum Swing/Lay Waste structure makes a lot of sense for builds where basic weapon damage is everything because the entire sequence isn't just good against crowds - it's also decent single target. For a Swashbuckler, Cleave/Great Cleave are a dps loss on single targets so it's a lot harder to justify Momentum Swing/Lay Waste.

4. 19-20 critical multiplier. This is another one of those issues where Swashbucklers get less damage from an ability than Barbarians/Monks would because of the composite nature of their damage. As a side note, shield bashing is such a minimal component of any reasonable Swashbuckler offense that increasing its critical rate is almost meaningless.

5. Helpless damage. This is critically important if you're on a clock with your CC (which is usually the case with Barbarians/Monks). But for Bard builds? Against a single target, there's no clock - you can take your time killing it since your CC can always be re-applied. Against multiple opponents, there's some semblance of a clock with Spinning Ice, but I don't see the window of being able to remove opponents due to heightened Helpless damage being large enough to particularly care about.

There's also the issue of why you're playing a T5 Warchanter in the first place - which is almost certainly for the buffs. So the question becomes less an issue of whether LD or Fatesinger will win on a training dummy than whether LD or Fatesinger brings more total dps to the group/raid. As it currently stands, it's reasonable to argue that the Bard should just focus on their own dps because the dps add from personal investment is greater than the dps add from collective investment.

This changes when you buff other Destinies. Even beyond Fatesinger, consider Shadowdancer. Personally, I loathe the charge mechanics. But being able to skip Rogue levels in heroic entirely, getting 25% Incorporeality as an added layer of defense and adding +5% to all damage on my target is a pretty compelling set of advantages even if the destiny is generally awful. (Side note: Because Grim Precision is almost universally twisted for such builds, you also free up a very expensive twist slot).

Note: I'm talking about 'Swashbucklers' because that's the mechanism of melee damage for the build and the one that provides the limitations on the combat style. I understand it's not technically a 'Swashbuckler build'.

DrawingGuy
03-12-2018, 06:03 PM
1) +1[W] most definitely matters. Certainly it scales better on higher damage die, but another d6 that can be multiplied by crits and multiplied by Melee Power makes a difference. I don't think anyone that makes a Vistani would skip Deadly Blades even with no Monk levels because it is a strong ability. That weapon bonus is nearly doubled on Ravenloft [d4+3] bases. It all adds up. And on non-dagger builds rolling Legendary Dreadnaught, they have access to light weapons that have [1d10] or [1d8+3] bases.

2) How are Action Boosts less useful? Most of your DPS is for standard attacks, freezing, and cleaves, all of which benefit from Melee Power. Resonant Arms may not, but has even stronger scaling off Sonic and many don't bother with it when trying to divide into other trees on a multi-class build anyways. Really where Haste Boost vs Melee Power wins for better DPS is really on how many cleaves you use. Haste Boost is by far better for someone that generally auto-attacks like any TWF fighter (including Handwraps), and Melee Power creeps ahead on someone that cleave spams like Barbarians and THF in general. SWF sits in the middle ground between TWF and THF as it is good at both cleaving and auto-attacking, making it better AOE than TWF and better single target than THF.

3) Wait... cleaves, including Swing and Waste are not good against crowds? While it is true higher base die weapons benefit more, and this is where short swords that get glancing blow damage win some points, this is where building for 90% of content is coming in. Spinning Ice is great because it hits multiple targets. Cleaves hit multiple targets as well. It wouldn't matter if you are doing 50% less damage - it is a DPS increase if you're hitting 3+ targets. That is where you bask in the light of SWF superiority: Cleave away at groups, and auto-attack single targets to get your best of both worlds. There's a reason SWF had to be nerfed a few times, and still makes THF take a back seat despite THF having higher base die weapons that benefit more from cleaves.

4) The additional crit multiplier is but a tiny portion of the reasons to take LD. DPS is DPS, and this makes a difference. Whether it causes someone else to get a bigger number than you is irrelevant as this is about what a melee bard should take, not a Monk or Barb.

5) You, my good sir, are underestimating helpless damage. Sure, pre-reaper it was easy to reach the point of "Overkill" (and maybe still if you only run low reapers), but due to damage scalebacks in Reaper modes, you want that DPS. We're talking FIFTY PERCENT more damage. That is effing huge. Sense Weakness is not a popular twist because of the of the extra dies of damage -- it is the helpless damage that makes it worth eating a T4 Twist slot. Maybe it might be weaker on a Rogue with no CC, but a Swash that can perma CC? It is utter perfection. I'd use an action boost that did nothing but pick my nose to get this bonus along with the 100 MP from Prowess.

6) Now party support is where I can get on board with your argument of Fatesinger. Sonic Vuln stacking would be beautiful for any Fey builds you may have in party (though Fiend for Hurl is the popular choice), and Grim Fate would increase the DPS of the entire party... though that only have 25% uptime. It also boosting the duration of your buffs is also nice. While I still hold that LD would be better DPS by a pretty good margin, there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to slip into a more supporty role. It is, after all, why I argued for 15 Bard over 14 so that you can get Inspire Excellence for the party. Though I'd personally draw the line with whether you have Fey members in party and/or full raid party as to whether the party support benefit would come close to outweighing the benefit the party would get from you having much stronger trash killing power with LD.

Niminae
03-12-2018, 07:57 PM
@Niminae - Yes, those feats can be selected as a fighter bonus feat. However it takes 15 Bard to get Inspire Excellence - giving everyone +2 to all stats means 30+ to HP for everyone, +1 to all saves, +1 to all skills, and most importantly, +1 to all DCs. +1 to everything for everyone in part is easily worth the feat slot and losing the fighter feat IMO. I'd need to be gaining a lot more, only solo, or static party with another bard that carries it before I'd consider dropping it.

Fair enough, and Inspire Excellence does seem to be the best option. But then I am confused about the several builds in this thread that have less than 15 Bard. Were they all developed before Inspire Excellence existed? I'm a bit unclear on the timeline of the Bard pass or if Inspire Excellence was even a part of that pass, since that pass occurred before I began playing. Or were they trading Inspire Excellence for something else that they found compelling enough to take in its place? Even in the OP we have a Bard 12/Fighter 6/Rogue 2 option, which would lose Inspire Excellence but would give access to the Tactics feat which didn't exist in 2014 when the OP was posted.

DrawingGuy
03-12-2018, 08:47 PM
Fair enough, and Inspire Excellence does seem to be the best option. But then I am confused about the several builds in this thread that have less than 15 Bard. Were they all developed before Inspire Excellence existed? I'm a bit unclear on the timeline of the Bard pass or if Inspire Excellence was even a part of that pass, since that pass occurred before I began playing. Or were they trading Inspire Excellence for something else that they found compelling enough to take in its place? Even in the OP we have a Bard 12/Fighter 6/Rogue 2 option, which would lose Inspire Excellence but would give access to the Tactics feat which didn't exist in 2014 when the OP was posted.

That was because back then it required 6 levels of Fighter to get the Stalwart Defense stance. 25 PRR/MRR, 3 to all saves, and 20% HP is a pretty strong bonus, so was considered worth the sacrifice for a tankier build. It is also why the alternate suggested was 16b/2f/2r as there was little reason to take the 3rd fighter with having no second core you cared about... but you still wanted Fighter for the feats and to save you the heart if playing PDK. The change they made to have Stalwart Defense as the second core allowed you to have both: The tanky bonus from Stalwart while still supporting your party with Inspire Excellence.

Niminae
03-14-2018, 02:24 AM
That was because back then it required 6 levels of Fighter to get the Stalwart Defense stance.

Thanks for the history lesson. :)

Xandez
03-14-2018, 03:10 AM
Fair enough, and Inspire Excellence does seem to be the best option. But then I am confused about the several builds in this thread that have less than 15 Bard. Were they all developed before Inspire Excellence existed? I'm a bit unclear on the timeline of the Bard pass or if Inspire Excellence was even a part of that pass, since that pass occurred before I began playing. Or were they trading Inspire Excellence for something else that they found compelling enough to take in its place? Even in the OP we have a Bard 12/Fighter 6/Rogue 2 option, which would lose Inspire Excellence but would give access to the Tactics feat which didn't exist in 2014 when the OP was posted.

If you solo a lot and dont use spells for DC, then the inspire is not so excellent (imo).

Basically it gives you +30 hp, + 1 to saves/skills and +2 CHA (+1 DC). Dropping it and taking eg. a fighter lvl and making a 14/4/2 split is perfectly viable (yet again, imo). Just take the +2 tactical feat with the fighter level and you're ahead +1 in the DC department and still have that inspire feat slot to be filled (cleave line... mmm yum, like em a lot).

Also, how about the legendary feat Scion of Astral plane? It gives you +4DC:s and + 4% dodge and dodgemax + 4% doublestrike... doesnt sound bad for a Warchanter?

Im also usually running in DC destiny since for me it seems to give much more survivability compared to the LD. But, im still working on my gear and it could very well be just that...

++Xan

unbongwah
03-14-2018, 09:17 AM
Another option: bard 16 / ftr 3 / FvS 1 so you can take Divine Presence instead of Know the Angles. Pros: higher melee DPS & DCs, unlocks Heal skill for more Positive Spellpower. Cons: lose trap skills and Evasion (unless you run in Shadowdancer instead of LD but you lose a lot of DPS w/out Blitz+Combat Brute).
Quoting myself for a PSA: Shadowdancer is about to get a significant buff (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/494595-U38-Balance-Changes); +10 Melee Power per core, 60 MP total (vs 24 MP now). While LD will still be the more powerful ED, this makes SD a more attractive alternative and the bard 16 / ftr 3 / FvS 1 split more viable.

Hjarki
03-14-2018, 04:50 PM
Quoting myself for a PSA: Shadowdancer is about to get a significant buff (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/494595-U38-Balance-Changes); +10 Melee Power per core, 60 MP total (vs 24 MP now). While LD will still be the more powerful ED, this makes SD a more attractive alternative and the bard 16 / ftr 3 / FvS 1 split more viable.

You'd also get 25% Incorporeality. And the ability to do an extra 2d6 Unholy damage for 30 secs every 5 minutes as long as you remember to mark and then kill 20 enemies.

Brother_Aurelius
03-18-2018, 04:27 AM
Is this build viable for a first life with no tomes?

It looks really nice and I was thinking of giving it a try.

Bardet
03-18-2018, 11:59 AM
Quoting myself for a PSA: Shadowdancer is about to get a significant buff (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/494595-U38-Balance-Changes); +10 Melee Power per core, 60 MP total (vs 24 MP now). While LD will still be the more powerful ED, this makes SD a more attractive alternative and the bard 16 / ftr 3 / FvS 1 split more viable.

Hi Unbongwah, would this be viable in a 1st life fresh iconic character? How strong would be this build for a solo player? It happens that I have a PDK with a Celestia I got for 10-year anniversary and this build sounds like the right way to go. Being a casual player I would like to have some advice, but the 16/3/1 appeals to me a lot!

unbongwah
03-19-2018, 10:09 AM
Hi Unbongwah, would this be viable in a 1st life fresh iconic character? How strong would be this build for a solo player? It happens that I have a PDK with a Celestia I got for 10-year anniversary and this build sounds like the right way to go. Being a casual player I would like to have some advice, but the 16/3/1 appeals to me a lot!
Probably? You can dump-stat INT if you go the bard 16 / ftr 3 / FvS 1 route; so CHA, CON, and enough STR or DEX for either Power Atk or Precision (depending on which route you take). You need to do some gear farming early on to acquire the "light armor + buckler + short sword" combo that you don't start with. Heroic and early epic leveling might be rough without Evasion, but you can go Fatesinger -> Shadowdancer fairly quickly in epics. Then comes the "fun" of leveling EDs on a first-lifer... :p

unbongwah
03-19-2018, 03:10 PM
Quick first-life build with Precision:

PDK Swashchanter
16/3/1 Bard/Fighter/Favored Soul
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter 6. Bard 11. Favored Soul 16. Fighter
2. Bard 7. Bard 12. Bard 17. Bard
3. Bard 8. Bard 13. Bard 18. Bard
4. Bard 9. Bard 14. Bard 19. Bard
5. Bard 10. Fighter 15. Bard 20. Bard


Stats
32pt Level Up
---- --------
Strength 8 4: CHA
Dexterity 14 8: CHA
Constitution 16 12: CHA
Intelligence 8 16: CHA
Wisdom 8 20: CHA
Charisma 18 24: CHA
28: CHA

Skills
Fi Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Fi Fv Bd Bd Bd Bd Fi Bd Bd Bd Bd
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
------------------------------------------------------------
Perform 3 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 3 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 23
UMD 2 4 2 1 1 1 1 3 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 23
Heal 2 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 1 1 2 2 2 22
Haggle 2 2 4 4 12
Balance 2 3 1 1 7
Tumble 1 1
------------------------------------------------------------
8 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 2 2 6 6 6 6 2 6 6 6 6


Feats

1 : Single Weapon Fighting
1 PDK : Shield Mastery
1 Fighter: Precision
3 : Quicken Spell
6 : Spell Focus: Enchantment
9 : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
10 Fighter: Improved Critical: Piercing
12 : Improved Shield Mastery
15 : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
18 : Empower Healing Spell
21 Epic : Inspire Excellence
24 Epic : Overwhelming Critical
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting OR Lasting Inspiration OR Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Deific Warding
30 Epic :
30 Legend : Scion of: Feywild

11 Deity : Follower of: Helm


Enhancements (80 AP)

Warchanter (41 AP)

Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism, Fighting Spirit

Poetic Edda II, Enchant Weapon
Arcane Shield Chant III, Iced Edges III, Sprint Boost I
Ironskin Chant III, Frozen Fury III
Reckless Chant III, Northwind III
Expeditious Chant III, Chant of Power III, Howl of the North, Spinning Ice III



Swashbuckler (13 AP)

Confidence, Swashbuckling

On Your Toes III, Tavern Shanties I
Deflect Arrows, Fast Movement
Elegant Footwork, Skirmisher



Stalwart Defender (13 AP)

Toughness, Stalwart Defense

Item Defense I, Durable Defense III
Resilient Defense III, Instinctive Defense I
Tenacious Defense III



Kensei (6 AP)

Kensei Focus: Light Blades

Extra Action Boost I, Haste Boost III



War Soul (4 AP)

Smite Foe

Divine Presence III



Purple Dragon Knight (3 AP)

Damage Boost

Cormyrean Knight Training



Leveling Guide


War Soul: Smite Foe

Divine Presence III




Purple Dragon Knight: Damage Boost

Cormyrean Knight Training




Swashbuckler: Confidence, Swashbuckling

On Your Toes III, Tavern Shanties I
Deflect Arrows, Fast Movement
Elegant Footwork, Skirmisher




Kensei: Kensei Focus: Light Blades

Haste Boost III




Warchanter: Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism

Poetic Edda II, Enchant Weapon
Arcane Shield Chant III, Iced Edges III, Sprint Boost I
Ironskin Chant III, Frozen Fury III
Reckless Chant III, Northwind III


15. WC0 Fighting Spirit; WC5 Spinning Ice I, II, III; WC5 Chant of Power I, II, III
16. WC5 Howl of the North; SD0 Toughness; SD1 Item Defense I
17. SD1 Durable Defense I, II, III; SD0 Stalwart Defense
18. WC5 Expeditious Chant I, II, III; SD2 Instinctive Defense I
19. SD2 Resilient Defense I, II, III; SD3 Tenacious Defense I
20. SD3 Tenacious Defense II, III; Ken1 Extra Action Boost I


Destiny (24 AP)

Shadowdancer

Acrobatic III, Technician I
Lithe III, Skill Mastery
Cloak of Shadows, Shrouding Strike I, Meld into Darkness II, Grim Precision III
Improved Invisibility I
Untouchable, Sealed Soul
Shadow Form, Dark Imbuement


Twists of Fate (22 fate points)

Reign (Tier 3 Fatesinger)
School Specialist: Enchantment (Tier 2 Magister)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)


For Power Attack / Cleave / Great Cleave chain instead, start at least STR 13 (instead of DEX) and swap Precision / Spell Focus Enchantment / Empower Heal.

Bardet
03-19-2018, 06:55 PM
Quick first-life build with Precision:


Thanks a lot!

Brother_Aurelius
03-21-2018, 06:42 AM
Quick first-life build with Precision:


I was looking for this as well. Much appreciated.

Thoden
04-16-2018, 02:17 PM
Icy Shadow Singer (with +1 LR)
16/3/1 Bard/Fighter/Favored Soul
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Bard . . . . . .6. Bard . . . . . 11. Bard . . . . . 16. Bard
2. Favored Soul. . 7. Bard. . . . . .12. Fighter. . . . 17. Bard
3. Fighter . . . . 8. Bard. . . . . .13. Fighter. . . . 18. Bard
4. Bard . . . . . .9. Bard . . . . . 14. Bard . . . . . 19. Bard
5. Bard . . . . . 10. Bard . . . . . 15. Bard . . . . . 20. Bard


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .--------
Strength. . . . .8. . . .+7. . . .4: CHA
Dexterity . . . 12. . . .+7. . . .8: CHA
Constitution. . 16. . . .+7. . . 12: CHA
Intelligence. . 14. . . .+7. . . 16: CHA
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . .+7. . . 20: CHA
Charisma. . . . 18. . . .+7. . . 24: CHA
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: CHA

Skills
. . . . .Bd Fv Fi Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Fi Fi Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd
. . . . . 1. 2 .3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Perform . 4. . . . 2. 1. 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. . . . 2. 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Concent . 4. 1 . . 1. 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. . . . 1. 2. 1. 2. 1. 1. 1. 23
Heal. . . 2. 3 . . . . . . .2 .2 .2 .2 .1 .1. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
Bluff . . 4. . . . 2. 1. 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. . . . 1. 1. 2. 1. 1. 1. 2. 23
Diplo . . 4. 1 . . 1. 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. . . . 2. 1. 1. 1. 2. 1. 1. 23
Intim . . 2. . .4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
UMD . . . 4. ½ .½. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1½ 1½ 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Listen. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2. ½ .½. . .1 .2 .2 .2 .3 .2 .15
Balance . 4. . . . 1. 1. 1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7
Jump. . . 4. . .1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .36. 6 .6 10 10 10 11 11 11 11 11. 7 .7 11 12 12 12 12 12 12


Feats

.1. . . . : Single Weapon Fighting
.1 PDK. . : Shield Mastery
.3. . . . : Extend Spell
.3 Fighter: Precision
.6. . . . : Empower Healing Spell
.9. . . . : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
12. . . . : Improved Critical: Piercing
12 Fighter: Improved Shield Mastery
15. . . . : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
18. . . . : Completionist
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Inspire Excellence
26 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Blinding Speed
28 Destiny: Holy Strike
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic . : Bulwark of Defense
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea

.2 Deity. : Follower of: Helm


Spells

Bard Cure Light Wounds, Expeditious Retreat, Focusing Chant, Merfolk's Blessing, Sonic Blast
Blur, Cure Moderate Wounds, Invisibility, Rage
Cure Serious Wounds, Displacement, Good Hope, Haste
Cure Critical Wounds, Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Greater Heroism, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Mind Fog, Shadow Walk
Heroes' Feast, Mass Cure Moderate Wounds
Favored Soul Nightshield, Protection from Evil

Enhancements (80+12 AP)

Warchanter (41 AP) Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism, Fighting Spirit Inspired Bravery III, Rough and Ready III
Iced Edges III, Sprint Boost II
Ironskin Chant III, High Spirits III, Frozen Fury III
Reckless Chant III, Northwind III
Chant of Power III, Howl of the North, Spinning Ice III
Swashbuckler (22 AP) Confidence, Swashbuckling, Uncanny Dodge, Panache On Your Toes III, Tavern Shanties I
En Pointe III, Fast Movement
Elegant Footwork, Skirmisher, Resonant Arms III
Stalwart Defender (13 AP) Toughness, Stalwart Defense Item Defense I, Durable Defense III
Resilient Defense III, Instinctive Defense I
Tenacious Defense III
Purple Dragon Knight (12 AP) Damage Boost, Charisma Cormyrean Knight Training, Action Surge: Charisma III, Improved Recovery
(none)
Improved Recovery
War Soul (4 AP) Smite Foe Divine Presence III

Destiny (24 AP)

Shadowdancer Shadow Lance III, Acrobatic II
Lithe III
Shrouding Strike III, Grim Precision III
Improved Invisibility III, Pierce the Gloom
Untouchable, Sealed Soul
Shadow Form

Hjarki
04-16-2018, 02:36 PM
How does this work for a... slightly more experienced toon?

Shield Mastery is minimally useful since you can only use Bucklers. With the best buckler in game, you're only getting +3 AC from it.

Not taking T5 Warchanter defeats much of the value of the build. Not only do you lose enormous amounts of damage, but also the AE freeze attack.

Action Surge: Charisma isn't particularly useful when your only Action Boost is the gimpy Sprint Boost. Having a static +1 Charisma would make more sense unless you're planning to go into Legendary Dreadnought.

For Stalwart Defender, you probably want to improve MDB rather than taking abilities like Item Defense.

For Swashbuckler, Deflect Arrows is mediocre, Sword Dance is nearly useless outside of heroic levels, Low Blow is utterly superfluous given you have the far better Frozen Fury and Resonant Arms isn't particularly good in comparison to the T5 Warchanter abilities you passed up.

Shadowdancer is also somewhat of a strange choice. I love Evasion as much as the next guy, but Intelligence does nothing for the build (indeed, it's puzzling why you pour so many points into Intelligence rather than a stat like Dexterity). Fatesinger will almost certainly yield more raw offense while old standbys such as Divine Crusader and Legendary Dreadnought are probably better as well.

Blinding Speed doesn't make much sense. Not only can you already cast Haste, but top-end gear grants the same bonuses.

Perfect TWF is the more conventional choice over Holy Strike, as it will generally yield more damage.

Burst of Glacial Wrath will overtax your Spell Points and rarely succeed except against trivial content.

In terms of leveling order, I'd take Bard at first level (does require a Stone). I'd also take the second level of Fighter at BAB 8 so you can get both Improved Shield Mastery and Greater Single Weapon Fighting by 15.

Thoden
04-16-2018, 02:49 PM
Oops missed the T5, that was an error. Many of your comments were edited already.


Shield Mastery is minimally useful since you can only use Bucklers. With the best buckler in game, you're only getting +3 AC from it. Shield Mastery is also giving Doublestrike and PRR, no?

Not taking T5 Warchanter defeats much of the value of the build. Not only do you lose enormous amounts of damage, but also the AE freeze attack. Fixed this, senior moment.

Action Surge: Charisma isn't particularly useful when your only Action Boost is the gimpy Sprint Boost. Having a static +1 Charisma would make more sense unless you're planning to go into Legendary Dreadnought. This is a good catch. I thought I listed my haste boost twist. I still have a few Fate points to work with.

For Stalwart Defender, you probably want to improve MDB rather than taking abilities like Item Defense. That's an easy fix if I need it, yeah.

For Swashbuckler, Deflect Arrows is mediocre I disagree, but okay. It was mainly filler
Sword Dance is nearly useless outside of heroic levels Probably. I didn't have the EPs for it anyway

Low Blow is utterly superfluous given you have the far better Frozen Fury Agree
Resonant Arms isn't particularly good in comparison I'll have another look now that I have my edits in.

Shadowdancer is also somewhat of a strange choice. I love Evasion as much as the next guy, but Intelligence does nothing for the build This was an error... fixed
Fatesinger will almost certainly yield more raw offense while old standbys such as Divine Crusader and Legendary Dreadnought are probably better as well. For me, Evasion is a non-negotiable, unless I want rogue levels (done that enough), or a Ranger Bard build (have one of those on another thread

Blinding Speed doesn't make much sense. Not only can you already cast Haste, but top-end gear grants the same bonuses. I've heard differently, so not sure what to think there.

Perfect TWF is the more conventional choice over Holy Strike, as it will generally yield more damage.

Burst of Glacial Wrath will overtax your Spell Points and rarely succeed except against trivial content. ...even with a maxed out charisma build?

In terms of leveling order, I'd take Bard at first level (does require a Stone). Deleted the non-LR build since Unbongwah covers a first life build

I'd also take the second level of Fighter at BAB 8 so you can get both Improved Shield Mastery and Greater Single Weapon Fighting by 15. that's good advice for sure

unbongwah
04-16-2018, 02:58 PM
Shield Mastery is minimally useful since you can only use Bucklers. With the best buckler in game, you're only getting +3 AC from it.
Shield Mastery feats + Legendary SM Twist are for the doublestrike (+15%) and PRR (+23), not the AC.

EDIT: oh, are you talking about PDK Shield Mastery enhancement? nm then

Thoden
04-16-2018, 03:41 PM
Okay... Its probably just filler anyway, since PDK is kind of meh for maxed racial ep toons.
Shield Mastery feats + Legendary SM Twist are for the doublestrike (+15%) and PRR (+23), not the AC.

EDIT: oh, are you talking about PDK Shield Mastery enhancement? nm then

unbongwah
04-16-2018, 04:43 PM
Okay... Its probably just filler anyway, since PDK is kind of meh for maxed racial ep toons.
Damage Boost (1 AP), CKT (2), +1 CHA (2), two ranks of heal amp (4), leaving 3 APs for Action Surge, Don't Count Me Out, another boost and +1 stat - whatever.

EDIT: or maybe 1 rank of heal amp + Shield Deflection. Only 20% chance w/bucklers, but could be helpful until you have Evasion from SD.

Thoden
04-17-2018, 10:22 PM
Damage Boost (1 AP), CKT (2), +1 CHA (2), two ranks of heal amp (4), leaving 3 APs for Action Surge, Don't Count Me Out, another boost and +1 stat - whatever.

You are right, of course. Edited for suggestions.

Xandez
05-23-2018, 12:55 AM
Quoting myself for a PSA: Shadowdancer is about to get a significant buff (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/494595-U38-Balance-Changes); +10 Melee Power per core, 60 MP total (vs 24 MP now). While LD will still be the more powerful ED, this makes SD a more attractive alternative and the bard 16 / ftr 3 / FvS 1 split more viable.

Now playing the above 16/3/1 build, also tested out the shadowdancer ED and holy moly i have to say i was pleasantly surprised!!

Also, the DC:s are now well above 100, so *yay*

++Xan

Hjarki
05-23-2018, 12:24 PM
Shield Mastery is minimally useful since you can only use Bucklers. With the best buckler in game, you're only getting +3 AC from it. Shield Mastery is also giving Doublestrike and PRR, no?

I was actually referring to the PDK enhancement and didn't think about the fact that there was another 'Shield Mastery'. In retrospect, it was a confusing comment.


Burst of Glacial Wrath will overtax your Spell Points and rarely succeed except against trivial content. ...even with a maxed out charisma build?

Burst of Glacial Wrath DC = 20 + Charisma bonus + 16 (gear) = 36 + Charisma bonus
Frozen Fury DC = 18 + Charisma bonus + 1/2 Charisma Bonus + 1/3 Charisma Bonus + 22 (gear) + 6 (LD Tactics) = 46 + 1.83xCharisma bonus

With an 70 Charisma, your DC would be 101 vs. 66. Both are Fort saves, so anything you could land BoGW on would be utterly trivial. You also don't have the kind of support to transform it into an effective source of damage. You're also very unlikely to want to invest in getting 3 different types of Evocation DC bonus on your gear when you don't cast Evocation spells much (so the DCs would be even worse).

One more comment: with level 6 Bard spells, you should almost always take Otto's Irresistible Dance since it gives you another option. While it won't work against enemies with spell resistance or enemies immune to mind-affecting, it means you can control 2 enemies at once rather than just the one you're locking down with Frozen Fury. Considering all you lose is a superfluous heal (or the nice, but not terribly compelling Heroes' Feast), it's a good investment.

unbongwah
05-23-2018, 01:40 PM
I was actually referring to the PDK enhancement and didn't think about the fact that there was another 'Shield Mastery'. In retrospect, it was a confusing comment.
Not your fault the devs still haven't learned their lesson about the dangers of overloaded terminology (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html). :cool:

deathblunt
08-01-2018, 04:58 PM
So I've been tinkering around with different melee caster builds and just thought of something cool. Was thinking of 12sorc/8 bard or visa versa. My idea around it was to go up in the bard war chanter tree for the Ice melee attacks and procs and then go up in the water savant tree. That way i would have ice based melee and spell attacks. I would either go PDK for CHA dmg and hit and replace the 1st lvl of fighter or would it be better to go Drow and pump up str and cha? Anyone else try anything similar? Any feedback or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!!

I got the inspiration from this build so i thought i would post it here.

Selvera
08-01-2018, 05:06 PM
Any feedback or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!!

My feedback/advice is that a bard/sorc swashbuckler was by far the weakest build that I've ever taken to level 30. You could have done the split better then I did it; but even so I don't have much faith that it'd stand up to being an "average" power level; much less perform well.

Either way; plan out the build with a proper planner (or better; create a test/throwaway character to test out the build) before you try anything like this on a character you care about. A bunch of things like skill requirements and BAB can easily screw with the build.

john0
08-04-2018, 03:21 AM
Just asking how much dc should i be aiming for end game r4+, at the moment i got around 122+ dc for ice freeze ( using war soul divine soul gives me +16 dc) So far everything seems to get stunned

But im considering changing it to 15 bard 3 fighter 2 rogue for the evasion IF lower dc of 105+ is still good

Also want to say the build has been a blast to play, i went 16 bard 3 fighter 1 favored soul in unyielding seintel and its been awesome, i kept swashbuckling down to 13 ap ( no low blow) and instead went with vanguard stunning shield as it works on reapers.

Dps still seems ok since your basically always doing extra helpless dmg ( sense weakness twist) only part it suffers is end boss but thats for those other builds.

What do people choose for legendary feat? Astral plane was the choice for me but the only thing is i have to wear cloths to benefit from the dodge boost

BoBoDaClown
08-05-2018, 10:51 PM
Just asking how much dc should i be aiming for end game r4+, at the moment i got around 122+ dc for ice freeze ( using war soul divine soul gives me +16 dc) So far everything seems to get stunned

But im considering changing it to 15 bard 3 fighter 2 rogue for the evasion IF lower dc of 105+ is still good

Also want to say the build has been a blast to play, i went 16 bard 3 fighter 1 favored soul in unyielding seintel and its been awesome, i kept swashbuckling down to 13 ap ( no low blow) and instead went with vanguard stunning shield as it works on reapers.

Dps still seems ok since your basically always doing extra helpless dmg ( sense weakness twist) only part it suffers is end boss but thats for those other builds.

What do people choose for legendary feat? Astral plane was the choice for me but the only thing is i have to wear cloths to benefit from the dodge boost

Sorry, I can't answer your question (although couldn't you remove an item/buffs to get your DC down to 105 to experiment?).

However, are you able to post a breakdown of your DC? I want to run some numbers and need a baseline.

Thank you

john0
08-06-2018, 03:55 AM
(10 + Charisma modifier + 0/one-quarter/one-half Bard Level + Stunning modifiers)

Cha = 74 = 32 mod
Bard level =16 so 8dc
Stunning modifiers item = 22 (enhancment) + 6 (insight) + 4 (quality) = 32 dc
3 fighter past life
6 legendary dread
4 astral plane
Favored soul divine soul = 16
Pdk sword training = 10

10+32+8+32+3+6+4+16+10 =121?



Im also thinking of doing an adaption doing 12 ranger 7 bard 1 favored soul

Tested dance of swords + frozen fury and it seems to working ( can proc 4 enemies) might make a post with more details to get some feedback

unbongwah
08-06-2018, 08:50 AM
Im also thinking of doing an adaption doing 12 ranger 7 bard 1 favored soul
Don't forget the duration of WC freeze attacks is based on # of bard levels; which is why I don't like the various heavily-MCed ideas.

Tested dance of swords + frozen fury and it seems to working ( can proc 4 enemies) might make a post with more details to get some feedback
Yeah Dance of Death seems to work with just about any melee special attack as long as you're dual-wielding, which is nice.

BoBoDaClown
08-06-2018, 11:59 PM
(10 + Charisma modifier + 0/one-quarter/one-half Bard Level + Stunning modifiers)

Cha = 74 = 32 mod
Bard level =16 so 8dc
Stunning modifiers item = 22 (enhancment) + 6 (insight) + 4 (quality) = 32 dc
3 fighter past life
6 legendary dread
4 astral plane
Favored soul divine soul = 16
Pdk sword training = 10

10+32+8+32+3+6+4+16+10 =121?



Awesome. Thank you very much.
Also +1 guild buff

Hjarki
08-07-2018, 10:38 AM
Don't forget the duration of WC freeze attacks is based on # of bard levels; which is why I don't like the various heavily-MCed ideas.

This is less relevant with Reaper CC reduction. As long as you've got 6 Bard levels, your Frozen Fury is going to be about the same duration as having any number of Bard levels in mid-Reaper or above. While the same breakpoint for Spinning Ice would be 12 levels of Bard, I'm not a big fan of Spinning Ice myself - and most of these heavily multi-classed builds can't afford the T5 Warchanter anyway.

unbongwah
01-17-2019, 01:06 PM
Just a little theorycrafting here: a pure PDK Warchanter / Swashbuckler to take advantage of the recent buffs to bards. The high concept is to have as many CC abilities based on either ice (Frozen Fury, Spinning Ice, Skaldic Scream, Burst of Glacial Wrath) and sound (bard sonic spells / SLAs) as I could squeeze in. Plus Grease, the ultimate party buff. :cool: Along the way I boosted bardsongs as much as I could afford: full WC bonuses plus Spell Song Trance.

Obviously a +1 HoW is necessary to eliminate the initial fighter level. Harper is not required but recommended for Know the Angles, since pure bard doesn't get Divine Presence. +5 DEX tome for Precision feat pre-req, +2 INT tome for extra skill points; adjust actual stats based on available tome(s).

PDK Warmaster
Bard 20
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Stats
32pt 34pt 36pt Tome Level Up
---- ---- ---- ---- --------
Strength 8 8 8 4: CHA
Dexterity 8 8 8 +5 8: CHA
Constitution 14 15 16 12: CHA
Intelligence 16 16 16 +2 16: CHA
Wisdom 8 8 8 20: CHA
Charisma 18 18 18 24: CHA
28: CHA

Skills
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
------------------------------------------------------------
Perform 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
Concent 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
Spellcr 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
Bluff 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
Diplo 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
Tumble 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
Haggle 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
UMD 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
Balance 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 21
Heal 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 11
Search 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 11
------------------------------------------------------------
40 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11


Feats

1 : Single Weapon Fighting
1 PDK : Shield Mastery
3 : Quicken Spell
6 : Spell Focus: Evocation OR Insightful Reflexes
9 : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
12 : Improved Critical: Piercing
15 : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
18 : Precision
21 Epic : Inspire Excellence OR Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic : Burst of Glacial Wrath
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic : Improved Shield Mastery
28 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting OR Lasting Inspiration
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic : Epic Damage Reduction OR Overwhelming Critical
30 Legend : Scion of: Plane of Air OR Feywild


Spells



Grease (1), Sonic Blast (2), <Any>, <Any>, <Any>
Soundburst (4), <Any>, <Any>, <Any>, <Any>
Haste (7), Displacement (7), <Any>, <Any>, <Any>
<Any>, <Any>, <Any>, <Any>, <Any>
<Any>, <Any>, <Any>, <Any>, <Any>
Greater Shout (16), <Any>, <Any>, <Any>



Enhancements (80 AP)

Warchanter (43 AP)

Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism, Fighting Spirit, Victory Song, Warmaster

Poetic Edda II, Enchant Weapon
Arcane Shield Chant III, Iced Edges III, Sprint Boost I
Ironskin Chant III, Frozen Fury III
Reckless Chant III, Northwind III
Expeditious Chant III, Chant of Power III, Howl of the North, Spinning Ice III



Spellsinger (13 AP)

Spellsinger, Music of the Sewers, Music of the Dead

Studies: Magical III, Sonic Blast III
Marigold Crown: Violet
Spell Song Trance



Swashbuckler (12 AP)

Confidence, Swashbuckling, Uncanny Dodge

Blow By Blow: Melee III, Tavern Shanties I
Fast Movement, Double Strike Boost I
Skirmisher



Harper Agent (7 AP)

Agent of Good I

Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness II
Know the Angles II



Purple Dragon Knight (5 AP)

Damage Boost

Cormyrean Knight Training, Improved Recovery




Destiny

Twists of Fate (32 fate points)

Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Lithe (Tier 2 Shadowdancer)
School Specialist: Evocation (Tier 2 Magister)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
Brace for Impact (Tier 1 Sentinel)

Tilomere
01-22-2019, 08:29 AM
This is less relevant with Reaper CC reduction. As long as you've got 6 Bard levels, your Frozen Fury is going to be about the same duration as having any number of Bard levels in mid-Reaper or above. While the same breakpoint for Spinning Ice would be 12 levels of Bard, I'm not a big fan of Spinning Ice myself - and most of these heavily multi-classed builds can't afford the T5 Warchanter anyway.

With reaper reducing both to 6 seconds, and both being half bard level, 12 bard levels is the breakpoint for both?

Hjarki
01-22-2019, 11:23 AM
With reaper reducing both to 6 seconds, and both being half bard level, 12 bard levels is the breakpoint for both?

Frozen Fury lasts your full Bard level while Spinning Ice only lasts half your Bard level.

thunir
01-22-2019, 04:24 PM
I can’t stand not having the 30 BAB. Also if you take “smooth flourishes” you’ll pick up Cha to damage on your buckler.


How useful in Cleave in these types of builds? Alternative is FOP/Precision.

I tend to think the Precision and maybe Grim Precision are going to be useful against undead/etc.

Note: Extend is a Quality of Life feat for me.

Varzil with Precision/FOP
15/3/2 Bard/Fighter/Rogue
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter . . . . 6. Bard. . . . . .11. Bard. . . . . .16. Bard
2. Rogue . . . . . 7. Bard. . . . . .12. Fighter. . . . 17. Bard
3. Bard . . . . . .8. Bard . . . . . 13. Bard . . . . . 18. Fighter
4. Bard . . . . . .9. Bard . . . . . 14. Bard . . . . . 19. Bard
5. Bard . . . . . 10. Bard . . . . . 15. Rogue . . . . .20. Bard


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ---- . . --------
Strength. . . . 10. . . .+6. . . .4: CHA
Dexterity . . . 14. . . .+6. . . .8: CHA
Constitution. . 14. . . .+6. . . 12: CHA
Intelligence. . 14. . . .+6. . . 16: CHA
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . .+6. . . 20: CHA
Charisma. . . . 18. . . .+6. . . 24: CHA
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: CHA

Skills
. . . . . F .R. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. F .B .B .R. B. B. F .B .B
. . . . . 1 .2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Perform . 2 . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. . .2 .1 . . 2. 1. . .1 .2 .23
Disable . . .5. ½. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12. ½. 1. 2 .1 .1 .23
Search. . 1 .1. . . . . .½ .1½ 2½ 1½ 3. 2. 1½ 1. 1½ 1. 1. ½. 1 .1½ 1. 23
Haggle. . . . . . .5 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 2. 2. . .2 .1 . . 1. 2. 23
UMD . . . 2 . . 1. 1. 2. 3. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1 .1 .1 . . 2. 1. . .1 .2 .23
Heal. . . 1 . . 1. . .1 . . 1. . .1 . . 1. . .1 . . . . . 2½ ½. 1. . .11
Spot. . . 1 .1. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. 1. 1. ½. ½. ½ .½ .1 . . 1. . . . ½. . .11
Balance . 2 . . . .1 .1 .2 .1 . . . . . . . . . .1 . . . . . . . . 1. .9
Open Lo . . .4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
Tumble. . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .20 11 .9 .9 .9 .9 10 10 10 10 10. 6 10 10 13 11 11 .7 11 11


Feats

.1. . . . : Single Weapon Fighting
.1 PDK. . : Precision
.1 Fighter: Shield Mastery
.3. . . . : Extend Spell
.6. . . . : Empower Healing Spell
.9. . . . : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
12. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
12 Fighter: Improved Critical: Piercing
15. . . . : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
18. . . . : Quicken Spell
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Force of Personality
26 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Inspire Excellence
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting


Or

Varzil with PA/Cleave
15/3/2 Bard/Fighter/Rogue
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter . . . . 6. Bard. . . . . .11. Bard. . . . . .16. Bard
2. Rogue . . . . . 7. Bard. . . . . .12. Fighter. . . . 17. Bard
3. Bard . . . . . .8. Bard . . . . . 13. Bard . . . . . 18. Fighter
4. Bard . . . . . .9. Bard . . . . . 14. Bard . . . . . 19. Bard
5. Bard . . . . . 10. Bard . . . . . 15. Rogue . . . . .20. Bard


Stats
. . . . . . . .34pt. . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .----. . .---- . . ---- . . --------
Strength. . . . 13 . . . 13. . . .+6. . . .4: CHA
Dexterity . . . 11 . . . 13. . . .+6. . . .8: CHA
Constitution. . 14 . . . 14. . . .+6. . . 12: CHA
Intelligence. . 12 . . . 12. . . .+6. . . 16: CHA
Wisdom. . . . . .8 . . . .8. . . .+6. . . 20: CHA
Charisma. . . . 18 . . . 18. . . .+6. . . 24: CHA
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28: CHA

Skills
. . . . . F .R. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. F .B .B .R. B. B. F .B .B
. . . . . 1 .2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Perform . 2 . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. . .2 .1 . . 2. 1. . .1 .2 .23
Disable . . .5. ½. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12. ½. 1. 2 .1 .1 .23
Haggle. . . . . . .5 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 2. 2. . .2 .1 . . 1. 2. 23
UMD . . . 2 . . 1. 1. 2. 3. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1 .1 .1 . . 2. 1. . .1 .2 .23
Search. . . .1. . . . . .½ .1½ 2½ 1½ 3. 2. 1½ 1. 2. . .1½ ½. 1 .1½ 1. 22
Heal. . . 1 . . 1. . .1 . . 1. . .1 . . 1. . .1 . . . . . 2. . .1 . . 10
Balance . 2 . . . .1 .1 .2 .1 . . . . . . . . . .1 . . . . . . . . . . 8
Open Lo . . .4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
Spot. . . . . . . . . . . . . .½ .½ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
Tumble. . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .16 10 .8 .8 .8 .8 .9 .9 .9 .9 .9 .5. 9. 9 12 10 10. 6 10 10


Feats

.1. . . . : Single Weapon Fighting
.1 PDK. . : Power Attack
.1 Fighter: Shield Mastery
.3. . . . : Cleave
.6. . . . : Empower Healing Spell
.9. . . . : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
12. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
12 Fighter: Improved Critical: Piercing
15. . . . : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
18. . . . : Quicken Spell
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Extend Spell
26 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Inspire Excellence
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting



Shared between the two builds.

Spells

Cure Light Wounds, Focusing Chant, Detect Secret Doors, <Any>
Blur, Cure Moderate Wounds, Invisibility, Rage
Cure Serious Wounds, Displacement, Good Hope, Haste
Cure Critical Wounds, Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Greater Heroism, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Mind Fog

Enhancements (80 AP)

Warchanter (40 AP)
Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism, Fighting Spirit
Inspired Bravery I, Rough and Ready III
Iced Edges III, Sprint Boost I
Ironskin Chant III, High Spirits I, Frozen Fury III, Charisma
Reckless Chant III, Northwind III, Charisma
Chant of Power III, Howl of the North, Spinning Ice III

Swashbuckler (11 AP)
Confidence, Swashbuckling
On Your Toes III, Tavern Shanties I
Deflect Arrows, Fast Movement
Skirmisher

Stalwart Defender (13 AP)
Toughness, Stalwart Defense
Durable Defense III, Stalwart Defensive Mastery II
Resilient Defense III
Tenacious Defense III

Harper Agent (9 AP)
Agent of Good I
Harper Enchantment, Awareness II
Versatile Adept I, Know the Angles III

Purple Dragon Knight (7 AP)
Damage Boost, Charisma
Cormyrean Knight Training, Improved Recovery


Destiny (24 AP) - Errors

Divine Crusader
Bane of Undeath, Endless Turning III, Charisma
Consecration III, Charisma
Sacred Ground, Charisma
Crusade, Charisma
Heavenly Presence, Celestial Champion

Twists of Fate (22 fate points)
Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
Legendary Tactics (Tier 1 Dreadnought)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)