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Karma
08-08-2014, 12:48 AM
I've borked my pure dwarven fighter build (first life, 28 pts, VIP with +3 strength tome purchased).

I've borked it in a way that seems pretty obvious: 20lvls of fighter requires healing. Unfortunately, having played more pnp than DDO, I assumed a great armor class would bridge the gap. I also assumed the Kensei tree was a "fighter" tree and didn't realize it was the go-to tree to multiclass fighters.

I also didn't even consider multi-classing because I thought the capstone would stack with the 40pt enhancement in the Kensei tree. Whoops.

So, I'm now in Epic and just not cutting the mustard. I've decided to resurrect with the lesser heart of wood and have been playing around with different builds. I'd like to respec, at this point, as a constitution-based sword-and-boarder. I'd taken some feats w/two-handed fighting, and will drop those. I'll also invest the requisite Kensei points into the Stalwart Defender tree to get that 40pter.

Essentially, the fact of the matter is that the upper level Kensei skills are not useful enough, in terms of DPS, to my character. While the damage is nice, it's just not enough to overcome my guy's glaring weaknesses in a) HPs, b)self-healing c)lack of any useful skill for the party (like intimidate or even UMD). Right now, I can jump and swim.

So, I've been playing with the character planning app, and I have two questions: is there any reason I shouldn't just take rogue for two levels (1st as rogue, doesn't matter when 2nd, as I'm already in epic levels) to get the extra skill points, other than hit dice? Am I missing something or does this amount to taking a total of 12 less hit points for about 40 extra skill points? Really, I've been messing with this for hours and it seems that way. Please, please correct me if I'm wrong or missing something obvious.

Secondly (and I guess this follows on the first) is there anything about this character planner (v04.20.02) that I should be worried about? I suppose I could read the entire thread and try to understand all the ins-and-outs but I wonder if there is something obvious about it that might affect a simple fighter 18/rogue 2 build.

Mahalko128
08-08-2014, 01:46 AM
Hello Karma! Well first, I'd like to say, is this your first go at a fighter? And are you a fighter fan? I can tell you right now that a pure level 20 fighter is absolutely viable in epics, as long as he's built right and for what purpose he's built. Understand that you could become a tank and go within the stalwart defender tree, which is entirely alright and works just fine. The thing you have to understand about fighters though, pure class, is that without Caccoon, we're not really able to heal ourselves, and depend on others to do so. Thankfully in Update 23, they'll be updating the way armor works entire to have both AC, PRR, and MRR upgraded so we can compete with those range builds in epic elite content. If you'd like to see a good, quality, year long thought out level 20 pure fighter stalwart defender build, here's a link to mine:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/432934-Pure-Fighter-Stalwart-Defender

Now, I'm afraid I'm a tank at heart, so your kensei questions are a bit of a loss on me. But you could still do more than decent damage whilest in the Legendary Dreadnaught epic destiny, and great tanking inside the Unyielding Sentinel destiny. Hope this helps!

Scrabbler
08-08-2014, 02:38 AM
I also didn't even consider multi-classing because I thought the capstone would stack with the 40pt enhancement in the Kensei tree.
DDO doesn't have 40pt enhancements in the trees, but the Kensei capstone does stack with most everything else Kensei provides.


in terms of DPS, to my character. While the damage is nice, it's just not enough to overcome my guy's glaring weaknesses in a) HPs, b)self-healing
The direct way to get self-healing is via an Epic Destiny, like Cocoon.


So, I've been playing with the character planning app, and I have two questions: is there any reason I shouldn't just take rogue for two levels (1st as rogue, doesn't matter when 2nd, as I'm already in epic levels) to get the extra skill points, other than hit dice?
The main reason to not take Rogue is that you're only allowed to train from 3 classes, and you might want to do Fighter/Monk/Paladin instead.

The key reason to be pure Fighter would be the Doublestrike (and other bonuses) in the Kensei capstone. If you take some Monk levels (and Grandmaster feats) you can get alternative bonuses, but they prohibit armor, and armor is being buffed shortly.

the_one_dwarfforged
08-08-2014, 04:46 AM
haste boost, keen edge, power surge, weapon spec feats line, and alacrity are the big fighter enhancements/feats that really bump your dps. only one of them is higher than lvl 12, i think the devs are sending a message there.

not sure what you are referring to by mentioning capstone and 40pt enhancement separately, as the capstone does require 40 points spent and does stack but requires you to be using a weapon from your focus weapons group (at least i seem to remember it does).

epics are currently not very melee friendly, and its much much much worse for an ungeared melee, a bad melee, and/or a noob melee. melees are heavily gear dependent (moreso than build dependent if you ask me) and heavily skill dependent. i see many melees standing in front of an enemy auto attacking while it kills them...dont do this. this is what bad melees do. player skill can greatly overcome gear limitations though, try madstone crater on whatever difficulty and focus on watching the enemies for tells (signals/cues/whatever you call it) that alert you to when they are about to start either their bull rush (minotaurs) or their three swing combo (ogres and trolls) and avoiding them simply by moving, and then attacking from behind. apply that playstyle to everything (madstone is an easy place for this, and even there you will still get hit sometimes) and you will greatly improve your performance.

switching from one extreme to the other will not improve the build, and may make it worse. for a new player i would advise 100% of the time to stay away from newb traps like throw your weight around. your strength will still be your to hit and tactics dc stat, and its much easier to boost strength (example: power surge lvl 12 fighter enhancement). additionally speccing to be a "tank" as a pure fighter with minimal gear is definitely going to disappoint you, because you will be a soul stone a lot more than you will feel you should be, being a "tank" and all.

hp, self healing/self sustenance/self sufficiency, and umd can all be achieved on any build. gear and past lives help. fighters and barbarians are not new player friendly.

+2 str, +2 tactics dc, +15% dps (also known as double strike) vs 1-3d6 sneak attack dice, possible workable evasion, higher umd, possible workable trap skills. if you have to ask you may not be ready to multiclass.

the best way to understand the character planner (and learn a lot about different character builds) is to just build a lot of random or different builds until youre pretty sure youve got it learned.

autochthon
08-08-2014, 04:51 AM
haste boost, keen edge, power surge, weapon spec feats line, and alacrity are the big fighter enhancements/feats that really bump your dps. only one of them is higher than lvl 12, i think the devs are sending a message there.

And that message is that they don't know how to make taking more than 12 levels in a class appealing.

unbongwah
08-08-2014, 02:36 PM
Actually, Kensei still has one of the better capstones (+15% doublestrike); the problem is it doesn't make up for all the downsides of being a pure ftr, like not having Evasion, Div Grace, Div Might (practically a must-have on a tactics build), nor any (class-based) self-healing. :(

Qhualor
08-08-2014, 02:47 PM
For a pure fighter, SF pots is your best option. In epics you can wear a sp item and twist Cocoon, Renewal or that other one that heals in a radius but you have to be in it. My mind just went blank on the name.

autochthon
08-08-2014, 02:54 PM
Actually, Kensei still has one of the better capstones (+15% doublestrike); the problem is it doesn't make up for all the downsides of being a pure ftr, like not having Evasion, Div Grace, Div Might (practically a must-have on a tactics build), nor any (class-based) self-healing. :(

Armour changes should hopefully make lack of evasion less of a big deal. Paladin changes hopefully make lacking divine grace less of an issue. Fighter should probably have a bonus that shares a CD with divine might (or something).

Overall fixing two out of three should make pure fighter more attractive. But honestly L20 cores and general non-multiclass needs a close look.

Seikojin
08-08-2014, 03:24 PM
If you don't mind running around, kiting mobs, using terrain to help bottleneck mobs, then 20 fighter has nothing wrong. Oh and since you can't disarm traps fight enemies on the edge of its effect: So they take even moar damage! :)

If you aren't too bent on kensai for much, you could do ssingle weapon fighting for offense. Taking whatever you can to boost your doublestrike to pair well with the swf speed. Then put points into stalwart to give you prr, hp, and ac boosting. Then if you need to turtle up, don a shield and get a pretty hefty defensive boost for tanking time.

Bridge_Dweller
08-08-2014, 03:27 PM
No.

Nightmanis
08-08-2014, 03:37 PM
Go S&B, get the Kensei Capstone, and then it's your choice of getting Block and Cut or Keen Edge.

I personally would rather go for Keen Edge, especially if using a dwarven waraxe.

Just get the +6 Str and +20% HP from Stalwart, a bunch of defensive benefits like more ac and higher max dex bonus, don't use a tower shield (unless you have one that's really good) and go from there.

Yes you'll be wearing a shield. No, you won't do as much DPS as Cetus or Zeus.

But on a DPS front, it's not the worst build ever. Grab Cocoon from Primal, get yourself some Silver Flame pots, and work your way with that.

There is also the option of just TRing that build if you're already into epics. Do a bit of research, see what ideas you want to use, etc. Like other's have stated, armour is being buffed up to actually provide defense so if you want to just tough it out, there's that option too.

BTW Divine Crusader is a really good destiny. If you can work your way over to there, you can get a bit of self healing from there alongside some actually pretty solid DPS.

Seikojin
08-08-2014, 04:05 PM
Here is a pretty straight forward build. You could have more healing by losing a lot of the stalwart and get healing amp out of the racial enhancements. Most of the kensai stuff is for power surge, tacticals, and action boosts. The idea would be to use a bastard sword with nothing in your offhand for attack speed and procs, then throw on a shield for survivability when you need to turtle up.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

ftr
Level 28 Lawful Good Human Male
(20 Fighter \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 478
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 14
Will: 8

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 14 20
Dexterity 14 14
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 14 14
Wisdom 12 12
Charisma 8 8

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 28)
Balance 4 12
Bluff -1 7
Concentration 2 13
Diplomacy -1 7
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -1 7
Heal 1 9
Hide 2 10
Intimidate 3 11
Jump 6 17
Listen 1 9
Move Silently 2 10
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 10
Search 4 12
Spellcraft 2 10
Spot 1 9
Swim 2 13
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 1 9

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Human Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Great Cleave


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Mobility
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Deflection


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Mastery
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Precision


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Lightning Reflexes


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Spring Attack


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Bash
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Slicing Blow
Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Attack Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Focus: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Spiritual Bond (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strike With No Thought (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Power Surge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - One Cut (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Alacrity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Exotic Weapon Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Reed in the Wind (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Reed in the Wind (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Reed in the Wind (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Improved Dodge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Improved Dodge (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Improved Dodge (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Agility (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Agility (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Agility (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Improved Mobility (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Improved Mobility (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Improved Mobility (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Overbalance (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Item Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defensive Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defensive Mastery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defensive Mastery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Shield Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Shield Mastery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Shield Mastery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Swift Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Strong Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Strong Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Strong Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Reinforced Armor (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Reinforced Armor (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Reinforced Armor (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Reinforced Shield (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Reinforced Shield (Rank 2)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Bulwark of Defense


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Luck of Heroes


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Holy Strike


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Blinding Speed


Level 28 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting

Karma
08-08-2014, 05:48 PM
Thanks, all, for the responses. Some things I wanted to clear up: I'd read that all classes got a capstone feat and, while reviewing my options for a fighter build, thought that would stack with a capstone enhancement. I did not realize that, essentially, capstone feats were replaced with capstone enhancements (via the 20 lvl requirement w/40 pts spent in tree) in U19.

That changes my equation quite a bit. I agree with previous poster(s) that the advantages of the Kensei line 40ap/20lvl requirement enhancement are pretty real (+2, +2, +15% DS).

The truth remains that this build, especially @ 28 pts with only 1 +3 tome (not buying any more right now) is not really all that viable for EE stuff, especially raids, without a dedicated healer. Just a bad fit, in general, for those quests and especially bad if there isn't super strong coordination.

As an old-timer D&Der (and a beta player of DDO now returning), this is a lot different game than I'm used to; while I realize it's changed, it has changed fundamentally and it is really difficult to even consider it the same game it was.

I really dislike the Kensai "twist" on monk as, from my perspective (and please correct me if I'm wrong) the benefits from multi-classing effectively far outweigh the advantages of the 40ap/20lvl feat in that tree. By comparison, the Stalwart Defender tree looks like it is solely focused on pure fighter/tanks; I can't see many classes going "fighter" for that tree.

I like this build, it's a pretty straightforward fighter with high strength, high con, lots of armor and lots of tricks(dcs). My friend and I went through a lot of content with it over the last few months. The game just changes so much on EE that it's hard to imagine being effective going forward (even with cocoon).

The sole hope for me now (as I see it) is a) better gear and b) the upcoming changes to armor. As Mahalko128 pointed out in another thread, those may be a couple months off. I can TR/ER etc and revisit this build in a later life, but it ain't going to be easy. Not that it should be.

Those would boost my prr immensly, change the equation ((150/(150+prr) to (100/100+prr)) and add advantages (within the equation) for wearing heavy armor and a tower shield. While "[I'm] a poor musician who blames his instrument," I'm hoping the changes will help tune.

Thanks for all your input. You at least made me realize my mistake (on the 20lvl requirement for capstone enhancements) and definitely made me consider other options than just chucking it all. TY

autochthon
08-08-2014, 07:20 PM
Go S&B, get the Kensei Capstone, and then it's your choice of getting Block and Cut or Keen Edge.

I personally would rather go for Keen Edge, especially if using a dwarven waraxe.

Just get the +6 Str and +20% HP from Stalwart, a bunch of defensive benefits like more ac and higher max dex bonus, don't use a tower shield (unless you have one that's really good) and go from there.

Yes you'll be wearing a shield. No, you won't do as much DPS as Cetus or Zeus.

But on a DPS front, it's not the worst build ever. Grab Cocoon from Primal, get yourself some Silver Flame pots, and work your way with that.

There is also the option of just TRing that build if you're already into epics. Do a bit of research, see what ideas you want to use, etc. Like other's have stated, armour is being buffed up to actually provide defense so if you want to just tough it out, there's that option too.

BTW Divine Crusader is a really good destiny. If you can work your way over to there, you can get a bit of self healing from there alongside some actually pretty solid DPS.

A SWF kensei would actually be pretty impressive with the double Str to damage and massive AS/Doublestrike combination. Plus grabbing all the specials in T5 Kensei would result in some impressive burst damage I imagine.

Bolo_Grubb
08-08-2014, 10:35 PM
I really enjoy my pure human fighter. Bastard sword and shield.

I went Stalwart defender and Unyielding Sentinel for the Epic destiny. With heal amp the Lay on hands and Light the dark do very nicely. I also have silver flame pots but use those very little.

I team up with a buddy and we do pretty good in Epic elites.

Karma
08-09-2014, 01:30 AM
A SWF kensei would actually be pretty impressive with the double Str to damage and massive AS/Doublestrike combination. Plus grabbing all the specials in T5 Kensei would result in some impressive burst damage I imagine.

Please explain the double Str to damage?

Burst damage on lvl 5 Kensei is not very impressive. If we could visualize 20% of HPs, could be better, but it's really not that great even then. In my opinion, of course.

Response to Bolo_Grubb:

I guess your buddy is paladin? That would make sense.

My buddy has been playing necromancer types since Dragonlance series came out, and this is no different. He started out as a pure wizard and went "dark" before I knew it. He got an equipment set and it just went from there.

Unfortunately, I'm Caramon to his Raistlin at the moment. He can make me undead, though, for what it's worth. A sort of laying on of hands.

Scrabbler
08-09-2014, 02:14 AM
Please explain the double Str to damage?
If you learn GSWF, you can add double ability modifier to weapon damage.


Burst damage on lvl 5 Kensei is not very impressive. If we could visualize 20% of HPs, could be better, but it's really not that great even then.
Good Death: instead of being a strict cutoff, the attack should work so you get proportionally less extra damage the more above 20% the creature is.
It's sad that some designer considered Deadly Strike worthy of a t5 enhancement. Swashbuckler probably has a better active attack in t2.


My buddy has been playing necromancer types since Dragonlance series came out
The answer to the last clue in the Knights category on Jeopardy the other day was "Dragonlance", and not one of the players had been born when it was published.


He can make me undead, though, for what it's worth. A sort of laying on of hands.
Wow, someone actually used the PM rez effect!

Karma
08-09-2014, 04:12 AM
If you learn GSWF, you can add double ability modifier to weapon damage. Still misunderstanding this, but will look into more.



Good Death: instead of being a strict cutoff, the attack should work so you get proportionally less extra damage the more above 20% the creature is. or a simple chance based on HP/5 to kill where 1/5 (and hit) is automatic.



It's sad that some designer considered Deadly Strike worthy of a t5 enhancement. Swashbuckler probably has a better active attack in t2. Considering it requires the action boost: attack and more folks than me couldn't figure out how to use it because we took action boost: haste, I would tend to agree this decision wasn't well thought out. I am really disappointed in this Kensei tree for a number of reasons. Mainly, because it doesn't make sense and is confusing to an adult with lots of experience with D&D.



The answer to the last clue in the Knights category on Jeopardy the other day was "Dragonlance", and not one of the players had been born when it was published. I'm so happy that kind of question would come up, for the authors (Weiss & Hickman). I'm so sad, on so many levels, about the fact you shared.

By far one of my favorite series of books and my favorite D&D computer games: SSI knew how to put them together, and if you ever played a Kender you'd DEMAND staff slings. C64 was the bomb to play it on.


Wow, someone actually used the PM rez effect! Yea, sad thing is you end up dead anyway.

autochthon
08-09-2014, 08:49 AM
Still misunderstanding this, but will look into more.



Greater Single Weapon Fighting doubles your Str (or appropriate) mod to damage along with the 30% AS boost. I could do a whole thing about it and raw DPS output but in general that increased strength bonus + AS makes it roughly equivalent to the other weapon styles in terms of DPS. Given that everything in Kensei increases SWF style output (AS, Doublestrike, lots of tactical attacks) it should scale well wit hthe style compared to S+B. Sure it's not a Bladeforged focused on a gigantic falchion, but the DPS should be able to keep up given similar strength values.

Karma
08-09-2014, 09:32 PM
Greater Single Weapon Fighting doubles your Str (or appropriate) mod to damage along with the 30% AS boost. I could do a whole thing about it and raw DPS output but in general that increased strength bonus + AS makes it roughly equivalent to the other weapon styles in terms of DPS. Given that everything in Kensei increases SWF style output (AS, Doublestrike, lots of tactical attacks) it should scale well wit hthe style compared to S+B. Sure it's not a Bladeforged focused on a gigantic falchion, but the DPS should be able to keep up given similar strength values.

I've never explored this idea. It's a good one, ty.

Xianio
09-02-2014, 12:31 AM
While other builds will be easier I think the pure Fighter is really fun. I don't suggest the SWF style though. While it's very good, I think S&B is better because of how many feats pure fighters get.

I have one that's got all of the meaningful shield feats: Bash and Mastery (gives some extra direct dps and 8% doublestrike)
I go Bastard Sword (or Dwarven Waraxe works too): This gives you cleaves and auto attacks glancing blows e.g. some AoE damage
I also get all of the Two-handed weapon fighting feats: This boosts your glancing blow damage e.g. more AoE damage
Finally this opens up the tier 5 Stalwart enhancement "Block and Cut" which gives an enormous 25% doublestrike bonus that can be maintained 50% of the time.

All of this makes for some impressive dps numbers.

If you're willing to go full-tilt into Epic content you can get some pretty crazy numbers going.

Unyielding will give another 7% doublestrike (twisted in)
Crusader also gives another chunk of doublestrike (between 1 and 50% but that's not shield based)

All told, on a first life toon you "could" reach as much as 82% doublestrike + glancing blows + shield bashes while using the bastard sword "First Blood" or between 72 and 77% while using any other Bsword/Dwarven Axe.

That adds up. :)

unbongwah
09-02-2014, 08:03 AM
While other builds will be easier I think the pure Fighter is really fun. I don't suggest the SWF style though. While it's very good, I think S&B is better because of how many feats pure fighters get.
I've done both S&B w/THF (Block & Cut) and SWF (Keen Edge) w/d.axes on a pure ftr; and there's no question the SWF build had better DPS. The extra doublestrike from B&C and LSM didn't make up the difference of SWF's advantages (+30% atk speed, +200% STR bonus) coupled with Keen Edge + Kensei capstone. Part of the problem is doublestrikes don't proc on Cleaves, so while my S&B single-target DPS was all right (though still behind SWF), I was at a disadvantage vs. mobs. And this was on a lvl 20 build with "only" STR 50; I'm sure the disparities would've become more pronounced on something with better stats. The only real drawback to SWF (apart from losing the defensive benefits of S&B) was the Cleave animations are slower.

I could've goosed my S&B DPS a bit higher had I taken the Kensei capstone (+15% doublestrike) instead of SD's; but that would've meant dumping the dwarven racial tree entirely (inc. +5% DPS from Fortress, IIRC) and giving up some feats for Weap Foc/Spec to invest in Kensei enhs.

I really hope U23 gives non-Swashbuckling S&B builds a good DPS boost, because they really need it. :(

Xianio
09-02-2014, 01:46 PM
SWF's advantages (+30% atk speed, +200% STR bonus) coupled with Keen Edge + Kensei capstone.
I really hope U23 gives non-Swashbuckling S&B builds a good DPS boost, because they really need it. :(

I think S&B is better because of how many feats pure fighters get --- I should clarify. I didn't mean just as a dps tool.

The upcoming changes to S&B means a whole lot of extra defense (+45 PRR/MRR with feats and a 100% improvement vs evasion related spells) and with SWF taking a hit (from 200% to 150% ability score) the DPS difference will be reduced. I also think that, while the Dwarf tree is great, the 16 additional doublestrike is the better call (but I'm not doing any fancy math to back that up).

Finally, if you had plans to go into the Crusader tree, which is probably the best idea for a pure fighter, then Keen Edge becomes redundant as Crusader offers the same buff. That way you can get both the increased threat range and 25% doublestrike. :)

unbongwah
09-02-2014, 03:27 PM
I also think that, while the Dwarf tree is great, the 16 additional doublestrike is the better call (but I'm not doing any fancy math to back that up).
Doublestrike bonuses only apply to regular atks, not to cleaves or glancing blows; whereas I think the extra DPS from Dwarf Fortress applied to everything. But it is such a PITA figuring that out. :(

Finally, if you had plans to go into the Crusader tree, which is probably the best idea for a pure fighter, then Keen Edge becomes redundant as Crusader offers the same buff.
Keen Edge stacks with Celestial Champion.

Inoukchuk
09-15-2014, 05:54 PM
I've never explored this idea. It's a good one, ty.

It gets really sick when you consider adding bard for Swashbuckler enhancements. Then you can fight sword & buckler and get all the advantages of the shield feats + all the advantages of the SWF feats (which are also new). And Swashbuckler can allow you very nice crit range/multiplier bonuses depending on your weapon choice (the one for rapier stacks with keen edge from kensei since one effects range and the other multiplier). Or go dagger, either way. regardless, give strong consideration to 2 fvs or 4 paly levels for divine might (and possibly divine grace).

Nightmanis
09-16-2014, 02:43 PM
I've done both S&B w/THF (Block & Cut) and SWF (Keen Edge) w/d.axes on a pure ftr; and there's no question the SWF build had better DPS. The extra doublestrike from B&C and LSM didn't make up the difference of SWF's advantages (+30% atk speed, +200% STR bonus) coupled with Keen Edge + Kensei capstone. Part of the problem is doublestrikes don't proc on Cleaves, so while my S&B single-target DPS was all right (though still behind SWF), I was at a disadvantage vs. mobs. And this was on a lvl 20 build with "only" STR 50; I'm sure the disparities would've become more pronounced on something with better stats. The only real drawback to SWF (apart from losing the defensive benefits of S&B) was the Cleave animations are slower.

I could've goosed my S&B DPS a bit higher had I taken the Kensei capstone (+15% doublestrike) instead of SD's; but that would've meant dumping the dwarven racial tree entirely (inc. +5% DPS from Fortress, IIRC) and giving up some feats for Weap Foc/Spec to invest in Kensei enhs.

I really hope U23 gives non-Swashbuckling S&B builds a good DPS boost, because they really need it. :(

After only watching the Cetus pure pally Breaking the Ranks EE video, I'm going to say that S&B gained a monumental amount of dps simply because now they can stand still for longer. The glancing blows while moving change is just icing on the cake for that.

What you said about doublestrike not working on cleaves or glancing blows though makes me realize even more why my old S&B didn't put out good offensive numbers. If I've got 100% doublestrike, and it's only useful when I'm autoattacking a single target (which at the time, same with glancing blows) and I've got a pack of mobs on me then of course I'm going to be useless.

bsquishwizzy
09-17-2014, 01:43 PM
I've borked my pure dwarven fighter build (first life, 28 pts, VIP with +3 strength tome purchased).

I've borked it in a way that seems pretty obvious: 20lvls of fighter requires healing. Unfortunately, having played more pnp than DDO, I assumed a great armor class would bridge the gap. I also assumed the Kensei tree was a "fighter" tree and didn't realize it was the go-to tree to multiclass fighters.

I also didn't even consider multi-classing because I thought the capstone would stack with the 40pt enhancement in the Kensei tree. Whoops.

So, I'm now in Epic and just not cutting the mustard. I've decided to resurrect with the lesser heart of wood and have been playing around with different builds. I'd like to respec, at this point, as a constitution-based sword-and-boarder. I'd taken some feats w/two-handed fighting, and will drop those. I'll also invest the requisite Kensei points into the Stalwart Defender tree to get that 40pter.

Essentially, the fact of the matter is that the upper level Kensei skills are not useful enough, in terms of DPS, to my character. While the damage is nice, it's just not enough to overcome my guy's glaring weaknesses in a) HPs, b)self-healing c)lack of any useful skill for the party (like intimidate or even UMD). Right now, I can jump and swim.

So, I've been playing with the character planning app, and I have two questions: is there any reason I shouldn't just take rogue for two levels (1st as rogue, doesn't matter when 2nd, as I'm already in epic levels) to get the extra skill points, other than hit dice? Am I missing something or does this amount to taking a total of 12 less hit points for about 40 extra skill points? Really, I've been messing with this for hours and it seems that way. Please, please correct me if I'm wrong or missing something obvious.


Without reading all of the other advice here, and responding to the thread post the only thing wrong with a pure fighter is that you need a healer strapped to your backside in content past lvl 10, and you’ll need a rogue for traps on elite. And that’s about it. If the hjealbot requirement is an issue, then go in a different direction.

The trapping issue? That gets a little more complicated, and it is also a problem with most other classes and builds. Hence the reason for builds that include evasion being really synergistic with a straight-forward melee toon.

Kensai tree *is* a fighter tree for straight melee, but you’ve got to decide how you are going to use it. Right now – pre-AC changes – your best bet is to look to go with a nimble fighter with high dodge and double-strike to avoid being hit. Post AC changes…well, that might be a different matter. Kensai is made more for a nimble fighter, in my opinion.

Likewise, gear can also be a HUGE deciding factor. Any melee is going to have to be loaded to the gills with stuff like PRR, blur / displacement / ghostly, and dodge just to avoid getting hit, and mitigating damage when you do get hit. This is regardless of which direction you take.

As for HPs, your average , semi-gimped 28-pt fighter may have around 500 HP at lvl 20, and this is without a lot of specialized gear. Typically, when I build for a fighter, I try to make sure I have at least 100% fortification, the best Health item I can get my hands on, something that gets me stoneskin on demand (hello Anniversary cards and Green Steel MIN II) armor with a blue augment so I can slot-up the best PRR augment I can get, the best false-life Item I can get my hands on, and something with Vitality in it (hello Minos Legens) . Likewise, I’ve found that taking an extra toughness feat these days doesn’t hurt.

Then when investing in feats, try to take both cleaves, Power Attack, pick a fighting style and take it up to “Greater” (THF , TWF, etc.) and invest as much into critical damage as you can – anything that extends your critical threat range, and damage on a critical.

Then it becomes a matter of weapons effects. Make sure you have a stable of Paralyzing / Banishing / Disruption / Vorpal / Smiting weapons at your disposal, and this is especially true on anyone doing TWF. Because, on average, you can skimp on base damage a little and this will be covered over with weapons effects. On THF / SWF it is a nice perk but not as uber-critical as TWF (in my opinion).

Given what you’ve described thus far, my thoughts are that you are running into problems because you are kinda over your head in content (EE is rough even for experienced players), and you are probably not geared properly. Likewise, a 28-pt toon is not something I’d take into EE content based on the fact that a) it takes time to farm GOOD gear and this usually requires at least a second life, and b) even with EDs basic stats are nothing to sneeze at. Moving up with a second life and having a few more stat numbers to play with won’t hurt you in EE content, for sure. A lot of these guys who go into EE content one-shotting mobs and having 1000 HP are playing every frickin’ angle they can get to get these numbers. Most players don’t make that kind of investment initially. It takes time and knowledge to get to that point. So don’t place an undue burden on yourself to feel you need to get to that level right now at this exact moment.

Anyhow, that’s my thoughts.