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mikarddo
08-03-2014, 01:14 PM
Greetings. I am pondering making one of my characters into a BF sorc thats necro specced possibly playing in EA. The character will have 2 wiz past lifes and +6 tomes but no epic past lifes.

If anyone has a link to a recent necro sorc I would love to see that build for inspiration.

In particular enhancenents which look a bit dull and choices in epic past lifes.

Any advice is most welcome.

Enoach
08-03-2014, 02:16 PM
Disadvantages of a Necromancy specialist sorcerer are as follows...

1. Feats - Sorcerer are limited in feats which means you will need to be selective as even with the past lives you will still want as many Spell Penetration feats as you can fit in

Feats you will want are:
Spell Focus: Necromancy
Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration
Wizard Past Life (+1 DC all Schools)
Heighten

-- Basically leaves you only one Heroic Feat for Maximize - which you will still want to power the Sorcerer Tree SLAs

Maybe also include
Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy
Epic Spell Penetration

2. Spell availability - As a sorcerer you will have less flexibility than a wizard.

3. Sorcerer's do not have a Tree That deals with Necromancy DC's

Base Attributes max charisma and constitution.

Advantage is that you can take advantage of the BF Reconstruct SLA
Bladeforged do have the HP advantage for survival.

Since you are focusing on Necromancy I would recommend Earth or Fire Savant Trees as their SLAs will have less need for Saves since your focus will be more Necromancy and not a lot of room for other Schools.

Wh070aa
08-03-2014, 04:01 PM
I would recommend hybrid evo/necro sorc, as it takes a lot less investment to get evocation nuking up to a point where you can one shot things, and its more useful on bosses. That said I have not played one in couple updates.
You can go ether human or warforged (blade forged for SLA?)
My build was (in no particular order)
Maximize(H) SF:evo(alt,if rich,conj focus, switch to evo around level 8),
Past Life : wizard
Heighten(alt empower, or more evo focus)
Necro
G evo
G necro
spell pen

Warning, since Sorc lacks spell slot's, and feats, this is kinda Meh.

Problems -
Universal- Lack of spell slots- Use scrolls. All the scrolls. As soon as possible. Careful with carrying capacity, if no str item. SLA's have way to long cool downs.
You gotta plan out your spells. Changing them is pain.
1) Human - healing. To fix max out umd, maybe invest all the extra points in int. You be umd healing. Your cha is high, so its not that bad.
2)Warforged (and hafling), you trade healing for feat, and spell slots, and inventory slots. Worse DC. Generally Less spellpoints, and heavy(-ish) investment in racial tree.
--------------
Also deciding on servant.
Earth needs both evo, and conj focuses(mostly conj), so unless you have cleric past life(s) the lack of feats makes it meh. Gimps lightning, so less wings/fetherfall. ****** dots, but a lot of them. Acid rain is good(short duration tho), and dragon bolt too. Con damage synergy with necromancy. Good at high levels, many dot's.
Fire- Free fireball. Many immune, much skill needed.Not bad, but I rarely use it. Gimps ice dot. Take if not running content with black bones,fire elementals, or demons (so basically Deleras+low Hause J, and that's about it). Takes way to long to get up to the good stuff. Pain to switch out spells for.
Lightning - My personal choice. Some demons are immune, and gimps acid, but you get stun, and wing ability for movement/kiting (+ free featherfall). No AOE DOT. Needs Evo DC to be effective. Chain lightning sucks balls.(Targeting is real bad.) Nice mid level stuns from lightning loop.
Ice. Has good single target damage, but many DC needed. Gimps fire. Only useful on bosses. Ice storm sucks, unless you spec for force, and like the slow effect. Niclacs SLA is nice, but too long cool down. 2 non meta niclacs, 1 niclac sla (add on ice spear later), or so for El chepo death machine, if your DC can handle it.
--------------

Dc and spell pen will suck, but you can make up with cheap stuns, debuffs, and cool downs. Debuffs suck, but you need them.
Well at least that's what I did. It's not the best build, and many spec for force damage for some reason.
Are you planning on epics, or just fast run to 20? Because necro power falls bad on epics.
Also my info is bit outdated. I hope I helped. I did my first 2 life's as a sorc, then switched to cleric, and wizard.

Pro tip- Besides must haves like maximize, feats don't really change anything on sorc. Just do whatever.

Wizza
08-03-2014, 05:54 PM
Okay, I don't want to come off as a rude, but you guys are wrong..



Feats you will want are:
Spell Focus: Necromancy
Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration
Wizard Past Life (+1 DC all Schools)
Heighten

-- Basically leaves you only one Heroic Feat for Maximize - which you will still want to power the Sorcerer Tree SLAs

Maybe also include
Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy
Epic Spell Penetration

You don't need any Spell Penetration feats. You get Greater Spell focus necro, Max, Emp, Quicken, Heighten, Wizard PL, 2x Great charisma as feats. Rest is up to you. You can go 3x Great charisma, take Ruin, Epic Necro focus, anything.



2. Spell availability - As a sorcerer you will have less flexibility than a wizard.

You will have any Spells a Necromancy wizard would have. Less flexibility sure, but no problem when you have everything you need already.



Since you are focusing on Necromancy I would recommend Earth or Fire Savant Trees as their SLAs will have less need for Saves since your focus will be more Necromancy and not a lot of room for other Schools.

Earth is the worst savant ever. Either you pick Fire or Air IMHO. Air offers a lot of Survavibility and I like it quite a bit more than Fire. Personal preference really but don't pick Earth or Ice.



I would recommend hybrid evo/necro sorc, as it takes a lot less investment to get evocation nuking up to a point where you can one shot things, and its more useful on bosses. That said I have not played one in couple updates.
You can go ether human or warforged (blade forged for SLA?)
My build was (in no particular order)
Maximize(H) SF:evo(alt,if rich,conj focus, switch to evo around level 8),
Past Life : wizard
Heighten(alt empower, or more evo focus)
Necro
G evo
G necro
spell pen

No need any SF: Evo feats. His charisma will be high 60s, which means lower 60s DC in Evocation too.




Dc and spell pen will suck, but you can make up with cheap stuns, debuffs, and cool downs. Debuffs suck, but you need them.
Well at least that's what I did. It's not the best build, and many spec for force damage for some reason.
Are you planning on epics, or just fast run to 20? Because necro power falls bad on epics.
Also my info is bit outdated. I hope I helped. I did my first 2 life's as a sorc, then switched to cleric, and wizard.

Pro tip- Besides must haves like maximize, feats don't really change anything on sorc. Just do whatever.

Not really. An exalted angel Sorcerer will have the best DCs.

On a build like you are planning to go, just go full ****** charisma. Pick 4 or even 5 charisma on your Savant/EK trees, pick 5 or even 6 Charisma in your Exalted Angel + 2 toggle from Core 2 and you will have an awesome Charisma score. Use scepters with Necromancy focus and Evocation focus, twist in Energy burst and Necromancy specialist and your Necromancy DC will be almost 70 fully buffed, while having everything else in the mid 60s with your high Cha.

Spell pen is not an issue. You could make a +6 Spell pen scepter from TF weapons if you really need it or pick Spell Pen in the EA tree. Pick your SLAs in the Savant trees, go for the reduced metamagics' cost enhancements and get wings.

As for epic past lives, go with Arcane critical for your Energy burst and spells like dots that you are going to use anyway. Then I'd go for more HP with Primal. Then PRR.

Jasparion
08-03-2014, 06:15 PM
Okay, I don't want to come off as a rude, but you guys are wrong..

You don't need any Spell Penetration feats. You get Greater Spell focus necro, Max, Emp, Quicken, Heighten, Wizard PL, 2x Great charisma as feats. Rest is up to you. You can go 3x Great charisma, take Ruin, Epic Necro focus, anything.

This. The only time you need Spell Pen is against Drow, and against Drow you will never get enough Spell Pen. So blast away against them in Shiradi or Draconic.

Enoach
08-04-2014, 12:04 AM
I actually disagree on the Spell Penetration not being needed and here is why...

1. Drow are not the only thing that comes with Spell Resistance - While arguably they are the highest, many outsiders as well as other Underdark creatures also have spell resistance

2. Necromancy spells have a Spell Penetration Check and if this is going to be the primary spell focus then neglecting Spell Pen will make these spells useless regardless of the DC of the Necromancy School.

Sure you may be able to balance it out, but it will be dependent on gear available and difficulty being run. I would still recommend fitting in one if not two spell pen feats

Why I think Earth Savant is worth considering:
Air and Fire Spells are mostly Reflex saves for 1/2 but if you think SR on Drow is difficult just try and ping them when they can evade. The Earth Savant brings you also benefits with acid making spells like Cloud kill (which also reduces CON and Fort Saves) even more effective as well as the two acid dots Acid arrow and Black Dragon Bolt.

Alternative
08-04-2014, 01:18 AM
With a VERY high cha sorc you can reach a very good enchant/evo DCs even without spell focus feats for those schools. Therefore you can/should chose necro as your main spell school, tho I'd really rather go with drow rather than BF.

Spell pen isn't that much needed, there are plenty of options to kill mobs with spell resistance, the direct damage spells, twisted energy burst, divine wrath in EA, ruin, and what else have you. For CC web and shout spells.

Wh070aa
08-04-2014, 01:54 AM
This. The only time you need Spell Pen is against Drow, and against Drow you will never get enough Spell Pen. So blast away against them in Shiradi or Draconic.

Well the big trip cats have decent SR. You can do without spell pen, but demons, and some casters (moistly drow) that are hard to nuke are 90% of my reason for necro. Clearing out trash with necro is not too Spell point/time efficient.
2 Wizard past lifes help a lot, but you still need some feats/items with spell pen, if you are going necro. Not taking it leaves you exposed to Teleporting demons(that are pain to nuke), and tripping cats. Drow casters mostly have death ward, and low HP, so that is not a big problem.

Only problem I see is immunities on EH/EE, but if you are wizard, you should know about necro problems already.

Eth
08-04-2014, 02:17 AM
This. The only time you need Spell Pen is against Drow, and against Drow you will never get enough Spell Pen.
Never say never. mid 40s goes through most spell pen checks on drow.
I usually take one spell pen feat. on my wizard to unlock the stuff you can take in enhancements and destinies. Played EE schindrylynn this morning with 45 spell pen and that was about 85% success on spell pen checks on drow.

On a sorc I agree though. Drow don't have that much HP. Just nuke them ;)

Wizza
08-04-2014, 03:16 AM
This. The only time you need Spell Pen is against Drow, and against Drow you will never get enough Spell Pen. So blast away against them in Shiradi or Draconic.

Kinda false, as Eth said. I have 3 Wizzies PL, 2 Spell Pen enhancement, +6 Spell Pen feat and I can get 70-80% of Drows. If I had 3x FVS PL, I'd take them without problem too.


I actually disagree on the Spell Penetration not being needed and here is why...

1. Drow are not the only thing that comes with Spell Resistance - While arguably they are the highest, many outsiders as well as other Underdark creatures also have spell resistance

2. Necromancy spells have a Spell Penetration Check and if this is going to be the primary spell focus then neglecting Spell Pen will make these spells useless regardless of the DC of the Necromancy School.

Sure you may be able to balance it out, but it will be dependent on gear available and difficulty being run. I would still recommend fitting in one if not two spell pen feats

Can you make any example of Spell penetration needed and where? The only ones that I can think of are Shadovars and with 3x Wizzies PL, 2x from Enhancements and 3x from a Twist (I like to twist Spell Penetration when doing WGU instead of Echoes of the Ancestor) I can get them with 1 or maybe 2 tries.



Why I think Earth Savant is worth considering:
Air and Fire Spells are mostly Reflex saves for 1/2 but if you think SR on Drow is difficult just try and ping them when they can evade. The Earth Savant brings you also benefits with acid making spells like Cloud kill (which also reduces CON and Fort Saves) even more effective as well as the two acid dots Acid arrow and Black Dragon Bolt.

Reflex saves are not a problem on a Necromancy sorcerer. Your charisma will be lower 70s-high 60s, so your evocation DCs will be as high as a full evocation based Sorcerer. Cloudkill is pointless.

Enoach
08-04-2014, 12:45 PM
...
Can you make any example of Spell penetration needed and where? The only ones that I can think of are Shadovars and with 3x Wizzies PL, 2x from Enhancements and 3x from a Twist (I like to twist Spell Penetration when doing WGU instead of Echoes of the Ancestor) I can get them with 1 or maybe 2 tries.


Drow, Duergar, Devils and "Fiendish" Creatures

Ataraxia's haven
Ruins of Gianthold - Lions
Vale of Twilight
The Subterrane
Devil Battlefield
The Kings Forest
The Underdark
Sschindylryn
The Demonweb
Wheloon Prison


I do agree with you that with investment even EE Drow are not out of range for Spell Penetration checks.



...
Reflex saves are not a problem on a Necromancy sorcerer. Your charisma will be lower 70s-high 60s, so your evocation DCs will be as high as a full evocation based Sorcerer. Cloudkill is pointless.

And the 70s Charisma will be around level 26+ when the gear is collected, ship buffs and Yugoloth buffs are also available and the +6 Tomes OP is posting they will have. With EA yes evocation DCs will be in the 60s.

I disagree with cloudkill being useless as its fortitude debuff AOE and lasting is very useful for kiting large groups of mobs through and making spells like Circle of Death and Wail to have a higher landing chance.

My comments was to make sure you are capable of being effective when dealing with something that has a High Spell Resistance, Reflex and Evasion.

Wizza
08-04-2014, 03:03 PM
Drow, Duergar, Devils and "Fiendish" Creatures

Ataraxia's haven
Ruins of Gianthold - Lions
Vale of Twilight
The Subterrane
Devil Battlefield
The Kings Forest
The Underdark
Sschindylryn
The Demonweb
Wheloon Prison

Did you just include Vale, Subterrane, Amrath and Ataraxia in a discussion of Epic levels?

Let's go on one by one:

- Gianthold - Lions: Spell resistance is low, one weapon with +Spell Pen and you are good.
- The Kings Forest, The Underdark, Sschi: drows. You need a bit more of work here. Weapon, enhancements, maybe a twist. You can get them with a good 80% without any feat, which is a decent chance. Note: you can just Energy Burst/Divine Wrath them.
- Wheloon Prison: what exactly? Can't think of anything at the moment.




And the 70s Charisma will be around level 26+ when the gear is collected, ship buffs and Yugoloth buffs are also available and the +6 Tomes OP is posting they will have. With EA yes evocation DCs will be in the 60s.

I disagree with cloudkill being useless as its fortitude debuff AOE and lasting is very useful for kiting large groups of mobs through and making spells like Circle of Death and Wail to have a higher landing chance.

My comments was to make sure you are capable of being effective when dealing with something that has a High Spell Resistance, Reflex and Evasion.

It all comes down if he's doing tons of Epic past lifes or not. In any case, while leveling, his DCs will be fine too. 26 is easy to reach and before that level, you don't really need any DC. You just blast through everything even on EE.

bsquishwizzy
08-11-2014, 11:56 AM
Kinda false, as Eth said. I have 3 Wizzies PL, 2 Spell Pen enhancement, +6 Spell Pen feat and I can get 70-80% of Drows. If I had 3x FVS PL, I'd take them without problem too.

Can you make any example of Spell penetration needed and where? The only ones that I can think of are Shadovars and with 3x Wizzies PL, 2x from Enhancements and 3x from a Twist (I like to twist Spell Penetration when doing WGU instead of Echoes of the Ancestor) I can get them with 1 or maybe 2 tries

Reflex saves are not a problem on a Necromancy sorcerer. Your charisma will be lower 70s-high 60s, so your evocation DCs will be as high as a full evocation based Sorcerer. Cloudkill is pointless.

First, the OP has 2 past lives, not 3.

Secondly, I’ve got an AM with Greater Spell Pen, three ranks of Elven Arcanum, +5 tome to INT (thank you Marbar) and an investment in 1 rank of of Spell Pen in the AM tree with a +3 Spell Pen item (just hit cap). With this, I am able to get past Drow spell resistance on the same order as you. Which is Ok for an AM, but not so great with a Sorc as I don’t believe they have access to spell pen enhancements to compensate.

This also being said, getting past spell pen is one thing, getting past Deathward is another. If there is any greater limitation to anything Necro-specced, it is Deathward and immunity from negative energy spells. And in the epic content with Drow? Many of that content includes a caster spamming Deathward. The Drow priestesses cast it the first thing they do (if it isn’t on them before you meet them). So, you’d better be prepared for that as well.

Likewise, Rakshasas, demons, devils, and generally most outsiders have spell resistance. And in epic content, there are a lot of those buggers hanging about. If I was a wizzy, I can swap out spells to compensate. For a sorc? Not such a simple exercise.

A wizard if great for Necro, mainly because it has more uses than just an offensive weapon: healing (in form), summons, and undead CC; some of these thing sorcs are excluded from having, or would be wasting a slot to use. Plus, most constructs are immune to negative energy spells, and virtually all undead are healed by them. Given the advantages that a sorc has with elemental spells, and the fact that these spells do not require building for spell pen or fail/no-fail DCs, I don’t see being a Necro-based sorc as being something desirable outside of something to be played for the heck of it.

I’m not saying that it isn’t “viable,” but there are larger considerations outside of spell pen that make it a somewhat troublesome role to play.

moo_cow
08-11-2014, 01:39 PM
Likewise, Rakshasas, demons, devils, and generally most outsiders have spell resistance. And in epic content, there are a lot of those buggers hanging about. If I was a wizzy, I can swap out spells to compensate. For a sorc? Not such a simple exercise.



So almost nowhere in endgame content.

Varinon
08-11-2014, 01:46 PM
Which is Ok for an AM, but not so great with a Sorc as I don’t believe they have access to spell pen enhancements to compensate.

Sorcerers get spell penetration enhancements in the savant trees.

Necromancy-based sorcerers are harder to build and play but completely possible and viable. Just expect to have more of a gear investment than wizard.

Portalcat
08-24-2014, 12:52 AM
Just expect to have more of a gear investment than wizard.

Ha.

Any DC-based arcane caster has roughly the same very high gear investment to be endgame EE-capable.

Now that said, 65 is/was the benchmark, at least for a necro wiz with ennervation SLA, for EE Storm Horns at U19. That used to require being nearly completely decked out with gear and past lives. Now you can get into the mid-70s on any arcane so there's a lot more slack to work with.

bsquishwizzy
08-25-2014, 10:42 AM
Sorcerers get spell penetration enhancements in the savant trees.

Necromancy-based sorcerers are harder to build and play but completely possible and viable. Just expect to have more of a gear investment than wizard.

As a wizard, if you plan to go full-out necro, you'd go PM. That nets you Lich form, which - in combination with Master of Death gives you minimum +4 to your main casting stat (INT), an additional +1 to your necro DCs, Likewise, you can takes 4 ranks of necro spell criticals, and all of the n3ecro spell power that goes into each poi9nt spent in the tree.

So, all these things combined, how do you compensate for that with gear? Because I don't see what Sorc-based gear exists that a PM doesn't get, or can't use as well.

mikarddo
08-25-2014, 11:16 AM
As a wizard, if you plan to go full-out necro, you'd go PM. That nets you Lich form, which - in combination with Master of Death gives you minimum +4 to your main casting stat (INT), an additional +1 to your necro DCs, Likewise, you can takes 4 ranks of necro spell criticals, and all of the n3ecro spell power that goes into each poi9nt spent in the tree.

So, all these things combined, how do you compensate for that with gear? Because I don't see what Sorc-based gear exists that a PM doesn't get, or can't use as well.

+3 DC for being in Exalted Angel does help quite a bit.

Dorian
08-25-2014, 11:46 AM
Faster recast from sorc spell cooldowns is very nice on a necro sorc.

SirValentine
08-25-2014, 04:21 PM
+3 DC for being in Exalted Angel does help quite a bit.

+4 really, as you get an extra +2 Charisma from Angelic Presence.

Lechesis
09-03-2014, 07:30 PM
+4 really, as you get an extra +2 Charisma from Angelic Presence.

I use exalted angle on mine as well with a necro twist in from magister,
150 fire/+6 necro thunderforged in one hand,
100 potency/+7 spell penetration thunderforged in the other hand.
I'm too lazy for tier 3 thunderforged... but if i did ... +22 fire crit.