PDA

View Full Version : Fascinating is getting frustrating



Oliphant
07-28-2014, 08:17 PM
i enjoy PUGing. players generally do well and when they don't it's another kind of fun. but i'm playing a lot of bard lately and a certain irritation is building over players completely disregarding the fascinating when it really counts. i'm not talking about run-of-the-mill fascinate indifference, when players can steamroll the content anyway. i'm talking about situations where the team is failing, we're totally overrun with killer mobs, and the worst offenders are handling the aggro the worst (frequently almost dying and failing to do significant damage)

for example:
picture an epic elite streak run of spinner of shadows and the team isn't able to kill the hezzys. so they all just pile up and we're looking at a fail. i'll type 'ok folks, ill pull the hezzys to the side and fascinate. don't kill em and they won't respawn'. at this point a shiradi wiz is being hunted like an animal by 7 hezzys and bunch of red spiders. i fascinate the mobs, which is pretty obvious because the haunted notes puts the orange fear face over their heads. immediately the wiz shoots his force missles and they're back on him, smothering him again. i repeat in chat that i can fascinate and please dont attack. i try again. fail. chat again. try again. fail again. repeat a few times. more players type in chat to leave the hezzys of focus on spiders. etc. i refrain from trash talk in party because its not a forum where that is received well.

no real conclusions here, just venting. the player is probably so mobbed that he's not watching chat until its too late. or english is not a first language. or some other reasonable explanation. but it get's irritating for the bard sometimes. you almost wish the other toons would all die sometimes so you can just finish the quest. but we're still having fun...

Nayus
07-28-2014, 09:15 PM
Tips:

*** Make sure you talk about fascinate at the start of every difficult quest, like Spinners
*** If someone dies, splat it in their faces, make sure to spend at least 30 seconds telling them how meaningless their deaths were.
*** If someone is getting swarmed, let them die first and then Fascinate. You don't need to spend Ressurection scrolls either.
*** Bards are not typically a Strength class so carrying Soul Stones is bad for your back.

If you never played a Cleric before then this is the time to learn that some people contribute far less than Dungeon Scaling.

Lonnbeimnech
07-28-2014, 09:16 PM
Let the rest of the party wipe, THEN use fascinate.

edit: ninja

Gizeh
07-28-2014, 09:25 PM
Got the same experience with the Sap feat. Even if used when not stealthed the duration a mob is taken out of the fight is longer than the cooldown - as long as it's not being attacked, and yet, everybody ignores it. In pug groups I guess your only option is to inform party members you're using it and then hope for the best. ;)

mrunlimited
07-28-2014, 09:45 PM
Fascinate is something i only typically use either solo or with the friend I two man stuff with. Bad players are always going to break your fascinate so either use enthrall or disco ball if you can. If these options arent available, sadly letting people die before you use it is a sound option usually. If you are a warchanter, the freezing abilities work well with these types of players also but it can be difficult to get a working ee dc for that if not geared properly. Paralyzing weapons work surprisingly well with swashbuckler so in a pinch you can try to cc that way some, mass hold monster is really good but dontbother if you are not a pure spellsinger build with spell pen to boot.

Only other advice I can offer is sometimes with badish groups if to stop what you are doing and just go all out healer till the bad kids mop things up. Ive done ee spinners pug a lot (shard farming to no avail) and have had some pretty bad groups. You would be surprised how quickly you can turn a bad situation around yourself just by being a dedicated healer for a bit. This is a quick way to run low on sp so never leave yourself with less than 300 sp healing noobs, more cost effective to let them die at that point.

Thalone
07-28-2014, 09:54 PM
Tip: Grease and FoM are both bard spells.

Tangent: I've been playing my wizard a lot and run into lots of druids and sorcs who like blowing away my webs and disco balls.

Daine
07-28-2014, 10:09 PM
I'm happy to fascinate in a PuG, if someone decides to break it to pull a large group and kill them all, awesome; if they get into trouble, I don't care, I've usually gone off to the next group of mobs. If people keep dying by breaking large groups of fascinated mobs, I assume they're "slow" and that fascinate is too complex for that PuG.

The fun of pugging for me is that each dungeon doesn't play out the exact same way each time you run it. I must say though, running ahead and fascinating all the spiders in Let Sleeping Dust Lie worked out great in a PuG; that's one strategy I might try to force upon a party in the future when the spidies start dying.

slarden
07-29-2014, 01:50 PM
I use fascinate situationally but not in a big battle zone where AOEs and cleaves are to be expected. Mass Holds are just much more effective in many situations.

Seikojin
07-29-2014, 01:54 PM
yeah, if I see a team wipe my cc, I just stop using cc unless I run waaay ahead of them.

zwiebelring
07-29-2014, 02:03 PM
i enjoy PUGing. players generally do well and when they don't it's another kind of fun. but i'm playing a lot of bard lately and a certain irritation is building over players completely disregarding the fascinating when it really counts. i'm not talking about run-of-the-mill fascinate indifference, when players can steamroll the content anyway. i'm talking about situations where the team is failing, we're totally overrun with killer mobs, and the worst offenders are handling the aggro the worst (frequently almost dying and failing to do significant damage)

for example:
picture an epic elite streak run of spinner of shadows and the team isn't able to kill the hezzys. so they all just pile up and we're looking at a fail. i'll type 'ok folks, ill pull the hezzys to the side and fascinate. don't kill em and they won't respawn'. at this point a shiradi wiz is being hunted like an animal by 7 hezzys and bunch of red spiders. i fascinate the mobs, which is pretty obvious because the haunted notes puts the orange fear face over their heads. immediately the wiz shoots his force missles and they're back on him, smothering him again. i repeat in chat that i can fascinate and please dont attack. i try again. fail. chat again. try again. fail again. repeat a few times. more players type in chat to leave the hezzys of focus on spiders. etc. i refrain from trash talk in party because its not a forum where that is received well.

no real conclusions here, just venting. the player is probably so mobbed that he's not watching chat until its too late. or english is not a first language. or some other reasonable explanation. but it get's irritating for the bard sometimes. you almost wish the other toons would all die sometimes so you can just finish the quest. but we're still having fun...

Well, nobody played bards anymore till Swashbuckler and someone had to stomp noses right on the power of Fascinate, then most high lvl. toons are self sufficent, then most content is soloable (you know exactly the mostly soloing ranger in your PUG, when you he starts manyshotting) and being soloed on ehard, where caring for your surroundings aka group members is not needed any more, that the Bard is simply ignored. people just don't care about anything any more. Not a surprise to me.

On my Bard I either run in front of the group ensuring most mobs are fascinated before people cleave or ips through them or I wait till they may be too reckless and then do whatever I want (completing the quest alone, for example, leaving them dead. The Fascinate turns into faschism^^). Bad behavior is punished by occasional teleports to twilight forge or DDs in chest.

Bottom line: never screw with a Bard!

dunklezhan
07-29-2014, 02:10 PM
.....aaaand I think this, more or less, is why Enthral effects should have been rolled up with Fascinate - OTHER PLAYERS stop fascinate working. Its not that enthral is way powerful, its that fascinate is rendered moot by the behaviour of other people in the group. This is not WAI, but as has been proven by the existence of essentially this thread over and over again since I started playing in 2009... you can't bug-fix players.

All those snazzy effects on fascinate are very cool to have, now they're added to fascinate they're not just cool, they're awesome they're super they're way effective... but if no-one lets you use them they are a waste of AP except for solo or - and this is important - closed channel or fixed groups.

I.e. it means that Bards are practically encouraged not to PuG (harming the PuG scene further) if they want to use some of their coolest, most iconic abilities to full effect. I mean think about that. Bards.Crowd control bards. Not out there being sociable and acting as the force multiplier they really are.*

In what world does that makes sense?




*I'm sorry I forgot: DoooOOOOOOoooOOOOooooOOMM!!!

This is not a disastrous state of affairs, because at least you CAN use enthrall when pugging, albeit on a limited number of target types, and because at least if as a bard player you have confidence to speak up and speak up early when you join a PuG, you can generally convince people to behave. But oh my gosh wouldn't it be easier if you didn't have to make every PuG you join into a negotiation/mind game?

zwiebelring
07-29-2014, 02:15 PM
you join into a negotiation/mind game?
...that's the Bard's role, too. :I

jalont
07-29-2014, 05:19 PM
Tip: Grease and FoM are both bard spells.

Tangent: I've been playing my wizard a lot and run into lots of druids and sorcs who like blowing away my webs and disco balls.

If I'm on a sorc and blow your balls (heh) or webs, it's because I can kill a group of mobs so quickly a web or disco ball is slowing the quest down. Get out of the way and let me do the work. I realize not everyone is able to do that. But I get in groups too much with people where I can kill most of a group of mobs with one hit, then the couple stragglers with a quick second, and then people complain about breaking CC. What are we supposed to do, whittle each one down for three hours? If you can't handle a couple free mobs for a couple seconds, then pike. The quest will probably go faster as I can control aggro and mob placement better.

Oliphant
07-29-2014, 06:56 PM
If I'm on a sorc and blow your balls (heh) or webs, it's because I can kill a group of mobs so quickly a web or disco ball is slowing the quest down. Get out of the way and let me do the work. I realize not everyone is able to do that. But I get in groups too much with people where I can kill most of a group of mobs with one hit, then the couple stragglers with a quick second, and then people complain about breaking CC. What are we supposed to do, whittle each one down for three hours? If you can't handle a couple free mobs for a couple seconds, then pike. The quest will probably go faster as I can control aggro and mob placement better.

sounds fine. i'm venting about the other kind of fascinate indifference, the quest fail against all good judgment and listening to reason variety. but I've seen other situations where players are merely complaining that you're ruining their play style, like complaining about breaking cc when the quest is going fine or complaining about not using cheesey hide spots when the quest is going fine. also specific to when i don't have the dps or other means to solve problem myself (e.g. my current bard 11, rogue 3, ranger 6 fail bard)