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Silverleafeon
07-26-2014, 02:09 AM
Greetings DDO Players,

I am a member of the Player's Council 2014, acting completely independently from the Developers in this thread which a continuation of the thread found here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/445709-Frenzied-Berserker-Capstone-Storm-s-Eye?p=5384043&viewfull=1#post5384043

Up front I want to make several things clear, I have no idea when Barbarian improvement will be made if ever. Sev has hinted that barbarians are on his radar, in one of the Bard or Pally improvement threads that he has made. Barbarians are not on the current NDA list.

Hopefully we can continue sorting thru and creating three or more new sample trees to improve the existing Barbarian trees, as well as develop recommendations for Barbarian class changes and possible potion solutions. Barbarian theory will be discussed in detail, including sticking close if possible to the Core 3rd edition barbarian.

As a member of the Player's Council, I am allowed to present my own personal projects and vision for the future of DDO. Should this project be about Season's Herald Druid, I would not need as much help as I do for Barbarians as I tend to be the one healing the barbarian instead of playing it.

When we are done here, there will be a permanent placement of our theories and ideas into the Player's Council Forums, and I will press the Developer to work towards quality barbarian improvements. Even if these don't not take place until after I leave the Player's Council at the end of the year, those ideas will still remain behind to inspire the Developers.

Thank you for your help and feedback, it is appreciated and a link to this thread will be included in that final report to the developers.

Silverleafeon
07-26-2014, 02:09 AM
Make a proposal formula for DR.

Make an in dungeon wilderness lore create potion stack for barbarian to use like archers create arrows.

Look at the uncanny dodge cool down and passive dodge benefits.

Look at the inability for barbarians to heal themselves.

Look at Barbarian Critical hits and what is too little or too much.
Ways to increase threat range shows various stacking etc..
http://ddowiki.com/page/Threat_range#Ways_to_increase_threat_range

Silverleafeon
07-26-2014, 02:10 AM
Changes to round 14

Added melee power to capstone and tier 5 (10 fpr each).




Frenzied Beserker Round 14 Rough Draft


Core Abilities

Core One

Die Hard: You gain the Die Hard feat, and automatically stabilize when incapacitated.
You gain +20 hp per each Frenzy Core Enhancement.

AP cost 1


Core Three

Wilderness Lore
Using Positive Spell Power or Repair hp is healed.
This is not temporary health.
(((Barbarian Levels*Z) + Xd6) + (Epic Levels * Yd6))
{Formula Goal pure barbarian gaining 75 hp at 20 and 150 at 25}
(((Barbarian Levels*2) + 3d6) + (Epic Levels * 3d6))
(Only usable with under a Barbarian Class Rage)
Fuzzy Math until playtested

Potion Cooldown 6 seconds or less
Does not share cooldowns with Silver Flame or Cure Serious or any new potions.

Not bankable, not tradable, disappears upon entering public area.
Creation in stacks of 25
Cost to create (Character Level * 10) hit points.
Creation Cooldown 1 minute.

AP cost 1


Core Six

Frenzy: Activation Cost: 10 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Enter a frenzy, increasing your strength by +2 and adding Vicious to your melee weapons.

AP cost 1


Core Twelve

Frenzy Spirit

You can expend 100 hit points to regain one rage to your barbarian class rage counter.
Cooldown of 8 seconds.

AP cost 1


Core Eighteen

Death Frenzy: Activation Cost: 20 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Expend 20 hit points to enter a Death Frenzy for one minute. You gain 4 strength. Your melee weapons gain 'Greater Vicious'.(+4d6 damage to your attacks while dealing 1d3 damage to yourself per attack.)
{removed crit bonus to place inside tier 5}

AP cost 1


Capstone

You gain +2 str.

Supreme Frenzy

Supreme Frenzy: Activation Cost: 20 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Expend 20 hit points to enter a Death Frenzy for one minute. You gain 6 strength. Your melee weapons gain 'Supreme Vicious'.(+6d6 damage to your attacks while dealing 1d3 damage to yourself per attack.)


You gain 10 melee power while under the effects of any Frenzy.

AP cost 1


Tier One

Extra Rage

+1/+2/+3 Rage use per rest

AP cost 1/1/1


Frenzy Dodging

Your max allowed dodge is increased by +1/+2


AP cost 1/1


Power Rage

+1/+2/+3 Strength and -1/-2/-3 AC while raging

AP cost 1/1/1


Power of the Barbarian Rage

While you are in a state of Barbarian Rage you gain Melee Power equal to your Barbarian Levels.

AP cost 2


Cracking Attack

Cracking Attack: Melee Attack: Deals +0.5/+1/+1.5[W] extra damage. Cooldown: 8 seconds

AP cost 2



Tier Two

Angry Arms

Mutli-select ~ choose one of the following:

+1%/+2%/+3% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +3%/+4%/+5% glancing blow damage.
{requires two handed weapon fighting}

+1%/2%/3% off hand weapon Procure
{requires two weapon fighting}

AP cost 1/1/1


Wade In

Action Boost: Gain +50/+75/+100 Temporary hp for one minute.

AP cost 1/1/1


Body Blow

Damaging enemies with Cracking Attack reduces their Fortitude saving throws by 1/2/3 for 20 seconds.

AP cost 2


Extra Action Boost

+1/+2/+3 additional Action Boost use per rest.

AP cost 1/1/1


Sprint Boost

+35%/40%/50% Action Boost bonus to movement speed for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds.

AP cost 1/1/1



Tier Three

Mad Munitions

Multi-select ~ choose one:

+1%/+2%/+3% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +3%/+4%/+5% glancing blow damage
{requires greater two weapon fighting}

+1%/2%/3% off hand weapon Procure
{requires greater two weapon fighting}

AP cost 1/1/1


Blood Trail

When you damage a foe, it gains a one stack of Blooded {max 1/2/3} that reduces their damage by 1% per Blood Stack. It lasts for 10 seconds per stack. Named Monsters are immune to this.

AP cost 1/1/1


Supreme Cleave

Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 10 hit points to activate this ability to attack enemies around you. This attack deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage. (Activation Cost: 10 Hit Points, affected by Dungeon Scaling. Cooldown: 9/6/3 seconds)

AP cost 1/1/1


Charge the foes

While under the effect of either Frenzy or Death Frenzy you gain +1/+2 dodge.

AP cost 1/1


Constitution/Strength
Multi-select: +1 Constitution or +1 Strength

AP cost 2



Tier Four

Crazy Strike

Each time you vorpal (roll a 20) while attacking a foe, you gain temporary hp equal to its 4 * its CR.

AP cost 2


Exhausting Blow

Exhausting Blow: Melee Attack: Deals +2/+3/+4[W], 1d6/2d6/3d6 Strength, and 1d6/2d6/3d6 Dexterity damage. (Cooldown: 20 seconds)

AP cost 1/1/1


Lash Out

Supreme Cleave has a 50%/75%/82% chance to cause bleeding to damaged enemies, inflicting up to 1/2/3 stacks. This can stack up to 5 times.
{REMOVED Slicing Blow requirement}

AP cost 1/1/1


Blood Tribute

Whenever an enemy who has a Blooded Stack upon it is slain, nearby allies gain blooded type temporary hp equal to the CR of the slain enemy.

AP cost 2


Constitution/Strength

Multi-select: +1 Constitution or +1 Strength

AP cost 2



Tier Five

Tantrum

Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 10 hit points to activate this ability and attack enemies around you. This deals +5[W] damage and has a 50% to knock down each damage enemy briefly on a failed Fortitude save vs. 20 + Strength modifier. Abilities that trigger on Supreme Cleave also trigger on Tantrum. (Blood Trail, Wade In, Lash Out, Sundering Spin, Storm's Eye)
{REMOVED improved trip requirement}

AP cost 2



Raging Fury

You receive +3 Crit multiplier on a 19-20 roll while raged.

You gain 10 melee power while raged.

AP cost 2


Focus Wide

Multi-select:

When you score a vorpal hit, you increase your chance of triggering weapon effects with glancing blows by +10% and gain +10% glancing blow damage for 12 seconds.
{REMOVED Mad Mut requirement}

AP cost 2


Blood Thirst

Your max stacks of blooded is increased from 3 to 10.
Whenever a foe dies that has a blood stack upon it, you gain 2x monster CR in temporary hit points.

AP cost 2


Blood of Mine Enemies

While under the effect of any one or more of the three Frenzy core abilities your weapons also gain the vampiric property.

AP cost 2



.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..................................



Changes to round 13

Power of the Barbarian Rage

While you are in a state of Barbarian Rage you gain Melee Power equal to your Barbarian Levels.

AP cost 2


Removed HP cost, AC reduction, and reduced cooldown of cracking attack.





Frenzied Beserker Round 13 Rough Draft


Core Abilities

Core One

Die Hard: You gain the Die Hard feat, and automatically stabilize when incapacitated.
You gain +20 hp per each Frenzy Core Enhancement.

AP cost 1


Core Three

Wilderness Lore
Using Positive Spell Power or Repair hp is healed.
This is not temporary health.
(((Barbarian Levels*Z) + Xd6) + (Epic Levels * Yd6))
{Formula Goal pure barbarian gaining 75 hp at 20 and 150 at 25}
(((Barbarian Levels*2) + 3d6) + (Epic Levels * 3d6))
(Only usable with under a Barbarian Class Rage)
Fuzzy Math until playtested

Potion Cooldown 6 seconds or less
Does not share cooldowns with Silver Flame or Cure Serious or any new potions.

Not bankable, not tradable, disappears upon entering public area.
Creation in stacks of 25
Cost to create (Character Level * 10) hit points.
Creation Cooldown 1 minute.

AP cost 1


Core Six

Frenzy: Activation Cost: 10 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Enter a frenzy, increasing your strength by +2 and adding Vicious to your melee weapons.

AP cost 1


Core Twelve

Frenzy Spirit

You can expend 100 hit points to regain one rage to your barbarian class rage counter.
Cooldown of 8 seconds.

AP cost 1


Core Eighteen

Death Frenzy: Activation Cost: 20 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Expend 20 hit points to enter a Death Frenzy for one minute. You gain 4 strength. Your melee weapons gain 'Greater Vicious'.(+4d6 damage to your attacks while dealing 1d3 damage to yourself per attack.)
{removed crit bonus to place inside tier 5}

AP cost 1


Capstone

You gain +2 str.

Supreme Frenzy

Supreme Frenzy: Activation Cost: 20 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Expend 20 hit points to enter a Death Frenzy for one minute. You gain 6 strength. Your melee weapons gain 'Supreme Vicious'.(+6d6 damage to your attacks while dealing 1d3 damage to yourself per attack.)


AP cost 1


Tier One

Extra Rage

+1/+2/+3 Rage use per rest

AP cost 1/1/1


Frenzy Dodging

Your max allowed dodge is increased by +1/+2


AP cost 1/1


Power Rage

+1/+2/+3 Strength and -1/-2/-3 AC while raging

AP cost 1/1/1


Power of the Barbarian Rage

While you are in a state of Barbarian Rage you gain Melee Power equal to your Barbarian Levels.

AP cost 2


Cracking Attack

Cracking Attack: Melee Attack: Deals +0.5/+1/+1.5[W] extra damage. Cooldown: 8 seconds

AP cost 2



Tier Two

Angry Arms

Mutli-select ~ choose one of the following:

+1%/+2%/+3% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +3%/+4%/+5% glancing blow damage.
{requires two handed weapon fighting}

+1%/2%/3% off hand weapon Procure
{requires two weapon fighting}

AP cost 1/1/1


Wade In

Action Boost: Gain +50/+75/+100 Temporary hp for one minute.

AP cost 1/1/1


Body Blow

Damaging enemies with Cracking Attack reduces their Fortitude saving throws by 1/2/3 for 20 seconds.

AP cost 2


Extra Action Boost

+1/+2/+3 additional Action Boost use per rest.

AP cost 1/1/1


Sprint Boost

+35%/40%/50% Action Boost bonus to movement speed for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds.

AP cost 1/1/1



Tier Three

Mad Munitions

Multi-select ~ choose one:

+1%/+2%/+3% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +3%/+4%/+5% glancing blow damage
{requires greater two weapon fighting}

+1%/2%/3% off hand weapon Procure
{requires greater two weapon fighting}

AP cost 1/1/1


Blood Trail

When you damage a foe, it gains a one stack of Blooded {max 1/2/3} that reduces their damage by 1% per Blood Stack. It lasts for 10 seconds per stack. Named Monsters are immune to this.

AP cost 1/1/1


Supreme Cleave

Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 10 hit points to activate this ability to attack enemies around you. This attack deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage. (Activation Cost: 10 Hit Points, affected by Dungeon Scaling. Cooldown: 9/6/3 seconds)

AP cost 1/1/1


Charge the foes

While under the effect of either Frenzy or Death Frenzy you gain +1/+2 dodge.

AP cost 1/1


Constitution/Strength
Multi-select: +1 Constitution or +1 Strength

AP cost 2



Tier Four

Crazy Strike

Each time you vorpal (roll a 20) while attacking a foe, you gain temporary hp equal to its 4 * its CR.

AP cost 2


Exhausting Blow

Exhausting Blow: Melee Attack: Deals +2/+3/+4[W], 1d6/2d6/3d6 Strength, and 1d6/2d6/3d6 Dexterity damage. (Cooldown: 20 seconds)

AP cost 1/1/1


Lash Out

Supreme Cleave has a 50%/75%/82% chance to cause bleeding to damaged enemies, inflicting up to 1/2/3 stacks. This can stack up to 5 times.
{REMOVED Slicing Blow requirement}

AP cost 1/1/1


Blood Tribute

Whenever an enemy who has a Blooded Stack upon it is slain, nearby allies gain blooded type temporary hp equal to the CR of the slain enemy.

AP cost 2


Constitution/Strength

Multi-select: +1 Constitution or +1 Strength

AP cost 2



Tier Five

Tantrum

Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 10 hit points to activate this ability and attack enemies around you. This deals +5[W] damage and has a 50% to knock down each damage enemy briefly on a failed Fortitude save vs. 20 + Strength modifier. Abilities that trigger on Supreme Cleave also trigger on Tantrum. (Blood Trail, Wade In, Lash Out, Sundering Spin, Storm's Eye)
{REMOVED improved trip requirement}

AP cost 2



Raging Fury

You receive +3 Crit multiplier on a 19-20 roll while raged.

AP cost 2


Focus Wide

Multi-select:

When you score a vorpal hit, you increase your chance of triggering weapon effects with glancing blows by +10% and gain +10% glancing blow damage for 12 seconds.
{REMOVED Mad Mut requirement}

AP cost 2


Blood Thirst

Your max stacks of blooded is increased from 3 to 10.
Whenever a foe dies that has a blood stack upon it, you gain 2x monster CR in temporary hit points.

AP cost 2


Blood of Mine Enemies

While under the effect of any one or more of the three Frenzy core abilities your weapons also gain the vampiric property.

AP cost 2







;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



Round 12, and thank you very much for the feedback.
Here is my possible rough draft to present the Devs:


Highlights of round 11 changes:

Changed capstone, look it over, thank you.
I think you might like it much better than the last, but we can go back to the other.

Added +5 to the core one, partly due to the capstone change.

Quadrupled the cost of regaining rages, as the original was too easy.

Removed the TWF options from tier 5, but left the others at the same places there are THF options, since this was the biggest of the group. The gives a head nods to TWF and allows you to take the new tier 5 that slightly benefits TWF more.

Added Blood of mine enemies to tier 5, note that this would only offset one frenzy and a barbarian could be running all three frenzy.
I intend to add a 5% bodyfeeder to Ravanger or OS.
The reasoning is that Frenzy already adds vicious so a bit more extra weapon buffing is logical in some ways.

Summary of round 12 changes

Changed Core 3 removing this

Your range of unconsciousness extends +25 HP per Frenzy Berserker Core Enhancement.

AP cost 1

and replacing it with wilderness lore potions.




Frenzied Beserker Round 11 Rough Draft


Core Abilities

Core One

Die Hard: You gain the Die Hard feat, and automatically stabilize when incapacitated.
You gain +20 hp per each Frenzy Core Enhancement.

AP cost 1


Core Three

Wilderness Lore
Using Positive Spell Power or Repair hp is healed.
This is not temporary health.
(((Barbarian Levels*Z) + Xd6) + (Epic Levels * Yd6))
{Formula Goal pure barbarian gaining 75 hp at 20 and 150 at 25}
(((Barbarian Levels*2) + 3d6) + (Epic Levels * 3d6))
(Only usable with under a Barbarian Class Rage)
Fuzzy Math until playtested

Potion Cooldown 6 seconds or less
Does not share cooldowns with Silver Flame or Cure Serious or any new potions.

Not bankable, not tradable, disappears upon entering public area.
Creation in stacks of 25
Cost to create (Character Level * 10) hit points.
Creation Cooldown 1 minute.

AP cost 1


Core Six

Frenzy: Activation Cost: 10 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Enter a frenzy, increasing your strength by +2 and adding Vicious to your melee weapons.

AP cost 1


Core Twelve

Frenzy Spirit

You can expend 100 hit points to regain one rage to your barbarian class rage counter.
Cooldown of 8 seconds.

AP cost 1


Core Eighteen

Death Frenzy: Activation Cost: 20 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Expend 20 hit points to enter a Death Frenzy for one minute. You gain 4 strength. Your melee weapons gain 'Greater Vicious'.(+4d6 damage to your attacks while dealing 1d3 damage to yourself per attack.)
{removed crit bonus to place inside tier 5}

AP cost 1


Capstone

You gain +2 str.

Supreme Frenzy

Supreme Frenzy: Activation Cost: 20 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Expend 20 hit points to enter a Death Frenzy for one minute. You gain 6 strength. Your melee weapons gain 'Supreme Vicious'.(+6d6 damage to your attacks while dealing 1d3 damage to yourself per attack.)


AP cost 1


Tier One

Extra Rage

+1/+2/+3 Rage use per rest

AP cost 1/1/1


Frenzy Dodging

Your max allowed dodge is increased by +1/+2


AP cost 1/1


Power Rage

+1/+2/+3 Strength and -1/-2/-3 AC while raging

AP cost 1/1/1


Athletics

+1/+2/+3 Balance, Jump, Swim.
Rank 3: When you activate Barbarian Rage, you gain +35% Action Boost bonus to movement speed for 20 seconds.

AP cost 1/1/1


Cracking Attack

Cracking Attack: Melee Attack: Deals +0.5/+1/+1.5[W] extra damage. Damaging enemies reduces their AC by -1/-2/-3 for 20 seconds on a failed fortitude save vs. DC (10 + Half Barbarian level + strength modifier) (Activation Cost: 5 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds)

AP cost 2



Tier Two

Angry Arms

Mutli-select ~ choose one of the following:

+1%/+2%/+3% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +3%/+4%/+5% glancing blow damage.
{requires two handed weapon fighting}

+1%/2%/3% off hand weapon Procure
{requires two weapon fighting}

AP cost 1/1/1


Wade In

Action Boost: Gain +50/+75/+100 Temporary hp for one minute.

AP cost 1/1/1


Body Blow

Your cool downs for Cracking Attack is reduced to six seconds.
Damaging enemies with Cracking Attack reduces their Fortitude saving throws by 1/2/3 for 20 seconds.

AP cost 2


Extra Action Boost

+1/+2/+3 additional Action Boost use per rest.

AP cost 1/1/1


Sprint Boost

+35%/40%/50% Action Boost bonus to movement speed for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds.

AP cost 1/1/1



Tier Three

Mad Munitions

Multi-select ~ choose one:

+1%/+2%/+3% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +3%/+4%/+5% glancing blow damage
{requires greater two weapon fighting}

+1%/2%/3% off hand weapon Procure
{requires greater two weapon fighting}

AP cost 1/1/1


Blood Trail

When you damage a foe, it gains a one stack of Blooded {max 1/2/3} that reduces their damage by 1% per Blood Stack. It lasts for 10 seconds per stack. Named Monsters are immune to this.

AP cost 1/1/1


Supreme Cleave

Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 10 hit points to activate this ability to attack enemies around you. This attack deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage. (Activation Cost: 10 Hit Points, affected by Dungeon Scaling. Cooldown: 9/6/3 seconds)

AP cost 1/1/1


Charge the foes

While under the effect of either Frenzy or Death Frenzy you gain +1/+2 dodge.

AP cost 1/1


Constitution/Strength
Multi-select: +1 Constitution or +1 Strength

AP cost 2



Tier Four

Crazy Strike

Each time you vorpal (roll a 20) while attacking a foe, you gain temporary hp equal to its 4 * its CR.

AP cost 2


Exhausting Blow

Exhausting Blow: Melee Attack: Deals +2/+3/+4[W], 1d6/2d6/3d6 Strength, and 1d6/2d6/3d6 Dexterity damage. (Cooldown: 20 seconds)

AP cost 1/1/1


Lash Out

Supreme Cleave has a 50%/75%/82% chance to cause bleeding to damaged enemies, inflicting up to 1/2/3 stacks. This can stack up to 5 times.
{REMOVED Slicing Blow requirement}

AP cost 1/1/1


Blood Tribute

Whenever an enemy who has a Blooded Stack upon it is slain, nearby allies gain blooded type temporary hp equal to the CR of the slain enemy.

AP cost 2


Constitution/Strength

Multi-select: +1 Constitution or +1 Strength

AP cost 2



Tier Five

Tantrum

Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 10 hit points to activate this ability and attack enemies around you. This deals +5[W] damage and has a 50% to knock down each damage enemy briefly on a failed Fortitude save vs. 20 + Strength modifier. Abilities that trigger on Supreme Cleave also trigger on Tantrum. (Blood Trail, Wade In, Lash Out, Sundering Spin, Storm's Eye)
{REMOVED improved trip requirement}

AP cost 2



Raging Fury

You receive +3 Crit multiplier on a 19-20 roll while raged.

AP cost 2


Focus Wide

Multi-select:

When you score a vorpal hit, you increase your chance of triggering weapon effects with glancing blows by +10% and gain +10% glancing blow damage for 12 seconds.
{REMOVED Mad Mut requirement}

AP cost 2


Blood Thirst

Your max stacks of blooded is increased from 3 to 10.
Whenever a foe dies that has a blood stack upon it, you gain 2x monster CR in temporary hit points.

AP cost 2


Blood of Mine Enemies

While under the effect of any one or more of the three Frenzy core abilities your weapons also gain the vampiric property.

AP cost 2







;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Here is the last round before the current one.





Round 10, and thank you very much for the feedback.
Here is my possible rough draft to present the Devs:

Highlights of round 10 changes:

Added ap costs to everything.
Making all changes be in orange color now.
Adding TWF options at the same places there are THF options.


Frenzied Beserker Round 9 Rough Draft


Core Abilities

Core One

Die Hard: You gain the Die Hard feat, and automatically stabilize when incapacitated.
You gain +20 hp per each Frenzy Core Enhancement.

AP cost 1


Core Three

Your range of unconsciousness extends +20 HP per Frenzy Berserker Core Enhancement.

AP cost 1


Core Six

Frenzy: Activation Cost: 10 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Enter a frenzy, increasing your strength by +2 and adding Vicious to your melee weapons.

AP cost 1


Core Twelve

Frenzy Spirit

You can expend 25 hit points to regain one rage to your barbarian class rage counter.
Cooldown of 8 seconds.

AP cost 1


Core Eighteen

Death Frenzy: Activation Cost: 20 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Expend 20 hit points to enter a Death Frenzy for one minute. You gain 4 strength. Your melee weapons gain 'Greater Vicious'.(+4d6 damage to your attacks while dealing 1d3 damage to yourself per attack.)
{removed crit bonus to place inside tier 5}

AP cost 1


Capstone

You gain +2 str.

Deathless Frenzy

Activation Cost: 10 Hit Points. Cooldown: 120 seconds. Expend 10 hit points to enter a Deathless Frenzy for one minute. You gain +4 strength. While you are in Deathless Frenzy, you unconsciousness range is extended by your current maximum hp.


AP cost 1


Tier One

Extra Rage

+1/+2/+3 Rage use per rest

AP cost 1/1/1


Frenzy Dodging

Your max allowed dodge is increased by +1/+2


AP cost 1/1


Power Rage

+1/+2/+3 Strength and -1/-2/-3 AC while raging

AP cost 1/1/1


Athletics

+1/+2/+3 Balance, Jump, Swim.
Rank 3: When you activate Barbarian Rage, you gain +35% Action Boost bonus to movement speed for 20 seconds.

AP cost 1/1/1


Cracking Attack

Cracking Attack: Melee Attack: Deals +0.5/+1/+1.5[W] extra damage. Damaging enemies reduces their AC by -1/-2/-3 for 20 seconds on a failed fortitude save vs. DC (10 + Half Barbarian level + strength modifier) (Activation Cost: 5 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds)

AP cost 2



Tier Two

Angry Arms

Mutli-select ~ choose one of the following:

+1%/+2%/+3% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +3%/+4%/+5% glancing blow damage.
{requires two handed weapon fighting}

+1%/2%/3% off hand weapon Procure
{requires two weapon fighting}

AP cost 1/1/1


Wade In

Action Boost: Gain +50/+75/+100 Temporary hp for one minute.

AP cost 1/1/1


Body Blow

Your cool downs for Cracking Attack is reduced to six seconds.
Damaging enemies with Cracking Attack reduces their Fortitude saving throws by 1/2/3 for 20 seconds.

AP cost 2


Extra Action Boost

+1/+2/+3 additional Action Boost use per rest.

AP cost 1/1/1


Sprint Boost

+35%/40%/50% Action Boost bonus to movement speed for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds.

AP cost 1/1/1



Tier Three

Mad Munitions

Multi-select ~ choose one:

+1%/+2%/+3% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +3%/+4%/+5% glancing blow damage
{requires greater two weapon fighting}

+1%/2%/3% off hand weapon Procure
{requires greater two weapon fighting}

AP cost 1/1/1


Blood Trail

When you damage a foe, it gains a one stack of Blooded {max 1/2/3} that reduces their damage by 1% per Blood Stack. It lasts for 10 seconds per stack. Named Monsters are immune to this.

AP cost 1/1/1


Supreme Cleave

Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 10 hit points to activate this ability to attack enemies around you. This attack deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage. (Activation Cost: 10 Hit Points, affected by Dungeon Scaling. Cooldown: 9/6/3 seconds)

AP cost 1/1/1


Charge the foes

While under the effect of either Frenzy or Death Frenzy you gain +1/+2 dodge.

AP cost 1/1


Constitution/Strength
Multi-select: +1 Constitution or +1 Strength

AP cost 2



Tier Four

Crazy Strike

Each time you vorpal (roll a 20) while attacking a foe, you gain temporary hp equal to its 4 * its CR.

AP cost 2


Exhausting Blow

Exhausting Blow: Melee Attack: Deals +2/+3/+4[W], 1d6/2d6/3d6 Strength, and 1d6/2d6/3d6 Dexterity damage. (Cooldown: 20 seconds)

AP cost 1/1/1


Lash Out

Supreme Cleave has a 50%/75%/82% chance to cause bleeding to damaged enemies, inflicting up to 1/2/3 stacks. This can stack up to 5 times.
{REMOVED Slicing Blow requirement}

AP cost 1/1/1


Blood Tribute

Whenever an enemy who has a Blooded Stack upon it is slain, nearby allies gain blooded type temporary hp equal to the CR of the slain enemy.

AP cost 2


Constitution/Strength

Multi-select: +1 Constitution or +1 Strength

AP cost 2



Tier Five

Tantrum

Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 10 hit points to activate this ability and attack enemies around you. This deals +5[W] damage and has a 50% to knock down each damage enemy briefly on a failed Fortitude save vs. 20 + Strength modifier. Abilities that trigger on Supreme Cleave also trigger on Tantrum. (Blood Trail, Wade In, Lash Out, Sundering Spin, Storm's Eye)
{REMOVED improved trip requirement}[/i]

AP cost 2



Raging Fury

You receive +3 Crit multiplier on a 19-20 roll while raged.

AP cost 2


Focus Wide

Multi-select:

When you score a vorpal hit, you increase your chance of triggering weapon effects with glancing blows by +10% and gain +10% glancing blow damage for 12 seconds.
{REMOVED Mad Mut requirement}


When you score a vorpal hit, you increase your chance to proc an off-hand attack by 10%, for 12 seconds.
{NO requirement}

AP cost 2


Blood Thirst

Your max stacks of blooded is increased from 3 to 10.
Whenever a foe dies that has a blood stack upon it, you gain 2x monster CR in temporary hit points.

AP cost 2

Silverleafeon
07-26-2014, 02:10 AM
OS changes round 7

Changed:
Lessons of Nature / Heavy Drinker

You gain +1/+2/+3 to save vs. both disease and poison. Rank 3: You don't fail disease or poison saving throws on a roll of 1.
While under the effect of a barbarian class rage, you can drink 1/2/3 potions at the same time.




Occult Slayer Barbarian Tree round 7


Core abilities

Core One

Weapon Bond
You build a psychic bond with your equiped weapons. You strengthen your Weapon Bond by damaging enemies with attacks, up to once each second. Your Weapon Bond is broken when you change either of your weapons or die.

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 1 to gain a +5 Insight bonus to Attack for 12 seconds. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)

Barbarian DR now equals (Barbarian Class DR + (Barbarian Level*0.75) + ((OS cores + Epic Levels)*2)) while you are raged.

You gain +5 MMR.



Core Three

Everbright Bond: While Weapon Bond 5+: your bonded weapon becomes Everbright.
{An Everbright weapon will not take durability damage from Rust Monsters or Oozes.}

You gain +5 MMR.

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 5 to gain a +5 Insight bonus to AC for 12 seconds. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)


Core Six

Elemental Defense:

When enemy spells deal elemental damage to you, there's a 25% chance you'll gain 25 + Barbarian Level temporary hitpoints for 30 seconds. This can trigger up to once every 12 seconds.

(Elemental Damage includes Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, Sonic.)

Activate: You can reduce your bond strength by 5 to gain a +5 Insight bonus to Energy Absorbtion for 12 seconds. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)

You gain +5 MMR.


Core Twelve

Blank Thoughts: You gain the Slippery Mind feat and improve your barbarian damage reduction.

Your MMR is increased by ((Barbarian Level) + ((OS cores *5)) ~ fuzzy math atm, needs checking

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 20 to gain a +1 to your barbarian class Rage counter. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)

You gain +5 MMR.


Core Eighteen

Force Ward: You gain immunity to magic missiles and +5% Competence bonus to entirely avoid incoming Force damage.

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 20 to gain a greater restoration effect upon yourself. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 20 to gain a fast healing effect upon yourself: (Cooldown: 2 minutes)
(1d6+Epic Levels) every 2 seconds for 2 minutes. This is affected by positive spell power.
{Note Level 21 is the first epic level.}

You gain +5 MMR.


Capstone

Mind Over Magic: You gain a bonus to your Spell Resistance equal to your Constitution score.

+2 Str +2 Con

Enhancement Bond

At Weapon Bond 25+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.

At Weapon Bond 50+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.

At Weapon Bond 75+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.

At Weapon Bond 100+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.

At Weapon Bond 125+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.



Tier One

Extend Rage

Your barbarian rage lasts 25%/50%/75% longer.


Ear Smash: Melee Attack

Deals +0.5/+1/+1.5[W] damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 2/4/6 seconds. (Cooldown: 12 seconds)


Parrying Bond

Parrying Bond: While Weapon Bond 10+: +2/+4/+6 Competence bonus to AC.


Uncanny Dodger

You gain +1%/+2%/+3% Dodge.


Awareness

+1/+2/+3 Balance, intimidate, spot. Rank 3: +1 Reflex Saving Throw



Tier Two

Willpower Rage

You gain +1/+2/+3 to Will saving throws while raged.


Knockout

Ear Smash puts enemies to sleep for 6/12/18 seconds. On Vorpal, enemies are stunned instead.


Guarding Bond

Guarding Bond: You gain +4 Physical Resistance at Weapon Bond 25+.

Rank 2: another +4 at Weapon Bond 50+.

Rank 3: and another +4 at Weapon Bond 75+.


Lessons of Travel

+2/+4/+6 energy resistance against Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire and Sonic damage.
reduce ap cost to 1/1/1


Antimagic Boost: Action Boost

+1/+2/+3 Action Boost bonus to saving throws vs. magic (Cooldown: 30 seconds)



Tier Three

Dispelling Strike

Attack: Performs a melee attack that deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage and dispels 1/2/3 beneficial effects from your target.
Cooldown 15 seconds.


Lessons of Nature / Heavy Drinker

You gain +1/+2/+3 to save vs. both disease and poison. Rank 3: You don't fail disease or poison saving throws on a roll of 1.
While under the effect of a barbarian class rage, you can drink 1/2/3 potions at the same time.


Arcane Encumbrance

When enemies damage you with spells, there's a 10%/20%/30% chance they'll be knocked down. (Does not affect bosses.)


Kinetic Bond

Kinetic Bond: At weapon bond strength 45+, you deal 1d20 force damage with your attacks. This damage can trigger up to once every 3/2/1 seconds.


Ability Score Multi-select

+1 Constitution or +1 Strength



Tier Four


Viscious Strike

Melee Attack: Deals +1/+1.5/+2[W] damage and inflicts Feedback on the enemy for 6/12/18 seconds. (Cooldown: 12 seconds)


Anti-Occult Wonder

Activate: Smite your enemy with a melee attack that deals an additional 2[W] damage. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)

At Weapon Bond 60+, when you strike an enemy with Anti-Occult Wonder, you are healed by 1d2 per character level positive energy, and benefit from the effects of the Lesser Restoration spell. (The heal from Anti-Occult Wonder is affected by your Positive Spell Power)


Ability Score Multi-select

+1 Constitution or +1 Strength


Vampiric Bond {moved out of tier 5, scaled}
Vampiric Bond: At Weapon Bond 60+, your weapon provides you (2 * Character Level) temporary hitpoints when you damage an enemy. This can trigger at most once every 12/9/6 seconds.


Perfect Strike On a vorpal hit, you gain +10 to your weapon bond stack.



Tier Five


Metalline Bond

At Weapon Bond 75+, your bonded weapon becomes Metalline, bypassing the Damage Reduction of certain enemies.


Overcoming Occult Magic

You add your Constitution modifier to your MMR.



Bond of Retribution
At Weapon Bond 75+,

You receive +1 Crit multiplier on a 19-20 roll.



Bond of Morphic
At Weapon Bond 75+, your bonded weapon becomes Morphic, and deals bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.


Alignment Bond

At Weapon Bond 75+, your bonded weapon becomes Aligned, bypassing the Damage Reduction of certain enemies.




//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


OS changes round 6

Put Spell Resitance back into capstone of OS
Added MMR into Core OS and Tier 5

Adjusted Weapon Bond numbers which have been even now, far too high.



Occult Slayer Barbarian Tree round 6


Core abilities

Core One

Weapon Bond
You build a psychic bond with your equiped weapons. You strengthen your Weapon Bond by damaging enemies with attacks, up to once each second. Your Weapon Bond is broken when you change either of your weapons or die.

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 1 to gain a +5 Insight bonus to Attack for 12 seconds. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)

Barbarian DR now equals (Barbarian Class DR + (Barbarian Level*0.75) + ((OS cores + Epic Levels)*2)) while you are raged.

You gain +5 MMR.



Core Three

Everbright Bond: While Weapon Bond 5+: your bonded weapon becomes Everbright.
{An Everbright weapon will not take durability damage from Rust Monsters or Oozes.}

You gain +5 MMR.

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 5 to gain a +5 Insight bonus to AC for 12 seconds. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)


Core Six

Elemental Defense:

When enemy spells deal elemental damage to you, there's a 25% chance you'll gain 25 + Barbarian Level temporary hitpoints for 30 seconds. This can trigger up to once every 12 seconds.

(Elemental Damage includes Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, Sonic.)

Activate: You can reduce your bond strength by 5 to gain a +5 Insight bonus to Energy Absorbtion for 12 seconds. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)

You gain +5 MMR.


Core Twelve

Blank Thoughts: You gain the Slippery Mind feat and improve your barbarian damage reduction.

Your MMR is increased by ((Barbarian Level) + ((OS cores *5)) ~ fuzzy math atm, needs checking

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 20 to gain a +1 to your barbarian class Rage counter. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)

You gain +5 MMR.


Core Eighteen

Force Ward: You gain immunity to magic missiles and +5% Competence bonus to entirely avoid incoming Force damage.

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 20 to gain a greater restoration effect upon yourself. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 20 to gain a fast healing effect upon yourself: (Cooldown: 2 minutes)
(1d6+Epic Levels) every 2 seconds for 2 minutes. This is affected by positive spell power.
{Note Level 21 is the first epic level.}

You gain +5 MMR.


Capstone

Mind Over Magic: You gain a bonus to your Spell Resistance equal to your Constitution score.

+2 Str +2 Con

Enhancement Bond

At Weapon Bond 25+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.

At Weapon Bond 50+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.

At Weapon Bond 75+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.

At Weapon Bond 100+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.

At Weapon Bond 125+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.



Tier One

Extend Rage

Your barbarian rage lasts 25%/50%/75% longer.


Ear Smash: Melee Attack

Deals +0.5/+1/+1.5[W] damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 2/4/6 seconds. (Cooldown: 12 seconds)


Parrying Bond

Parrying Bond: While Weapon Bond 10+: +2/+4/+6 Competence bonus to AC.


Uncanny Dodger

You gain +1%/+2%/+3% Dodge.


Awareness

+1/+2/+3 Balance, intimidate, spot. Rank 3: +1 Reflex Saving Throw



Tier Two

Willpower Rage

You gain +1/+2/+3 to Will saving throws while raged.


Knockout

Ear Smash puts enemies to sleep for 6/12/18 seconds. On Vorpal, enemies are stunned instead.


Guarding Bond

Guarding Bond: You gain +4 Physical Resistance at Weapon Bond 25+.

Rank 2: another +4 at Weapon Bond 50+.

Rank 3: and another +4 at Weapon Bond 75+.


Lessons of Travel

+2/+4/+6 energy resistance against Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire and Sonic damage.
reduce ap cost to 1/1/1


Antimagic Boost: Action Boost

+1/+2/+3 Action Boost bonus to saving throws vs. magic (Cooldown: 30 seconds)



Tier Three

Dispelling Strike

Attack: Performs a melee attack that deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage and dispels 1/2/3 beneficial effects from your target.
Cooldown 15 seconds.


Lessons of Nature

You gain +1/+2/+3 to save vs. both disease and poison. Rank 3: You don't fail disease or poison saving throws on a roll of 1.


Arcane Encumbrance

When enemies damage you with spells, there's a 10%/20%/30% chance they'll be knocked down. (Does not affect bosses.)


Kinetic Bond

Kinetic Bond: At weapon bond strength 45+, you deal 1d20 force damage with your attacks. This damage can trigger up to once every 3/2/1 seconds.


Ability Score Multi-select

+1 Constitution or +1 Strength



Tier Four


Viscious Strike

Melee Attack: Deals +1/+1.5/+2[W] damage and inflicts Feedback on the enemy for 6/12/18 seconds. (Cooldown: 12 seconds)


Anti-Occult Wonder

Activate: Smite your enemy with a melee attack that deals an additional 2[W] damage. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)

At Weapon Bond 60+, when you strike an enemy with Anti-Occult Wonder, you are healed by 1d2 per character level positive energy, and benefit from the effects of the Lesser Restoration spell. (The heal from Anti-Occult Wonder is affected by your Positive Spell Power)


Ability Score Multi-select

+1 Constitution or +1 Strength


Vampiric Bond {moved out of tier 5, scaled}
Vampiric Bond: At Weapon Bond 60+, your weapon provides you (2 * Character Level) temporary hitpoints when you damage an enemy. This can trigger at most once every 12/9/6 seconds.


Perfect Strike On a vorpal hit, you gain +10 to your weapon bond stack.



Tier Five


Metalline Bond

At Weapon Bond 75+, your bonded weapon becomes Metalline, bypassing the Damage Reduction of certain enemies.


Overcoming Occult Magic

You add your Constitution modifier to your MMR.



Bond of Retribution
At Weapon Bond 75+,

You receive +1 Crit multiplier on a 19-20 roll.



Bond of Morphic
At Weapon Bond 75+, your bonded weapon becomes Morphic, and deals bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.


Alignment Bond

At Weapon Bond 75+, your bonded weapon becomes Aligned, bypassing the Damage Reduction of certain enemies.





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Changes:
Featuring MMR bonuses instead of evasion in core 12, capstone, and tier 5
Added fast healing from weapon bond on tier 18



Occult Slayer Barbarian Tree round 5


Core abilities

Core One

Weapon Bond
You build a psychic bond with your equiped weapons. You strengthen your Weapon Bond by damaging enemies with attacks, up to once each second. Your Weapon Bond is broken when you change either of your weapons or die.

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 1 to gain a +5 Insight bonus to Attack for 12 seconds. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)

Barbarian DR now equals (Barbarian Class DR + (Barbarian Level*0.75) + ((OS cores + Epic Levels)*2)) while you are raged.




Core Three

Everbright Bond: While Weapon Bond 10+: your bonded weapon becomes Everbright.
{An Everbright weapon will not take durability damage from Rust Monsters or Oozes.}

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 5 to gain a +5 Insight bonus to AC for 12 seconds. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)


Core Six

Elemental Defense:

When enemy spells deal elemental damage to you, there's a 25% chance you'll gain 25 + Barbarian Level temporary hitpoints for 30 seconds. This can trigger up to once every 12 seconds.

(Elemental Damage includes Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, Sonic.)

Activate: You can reduce your bond strength by 5 to gain a +5 Insight bonus to Energy Absorbtion for 12 seconds. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)


Core Twelve

Blank Thoughts: You gain the Slippery Mind feat and improve your barbarian damage reduction.

Your MMR is increased by ((Barbarian Level) + ((OS cores *5)) ~ fuzzy math atm, needs checking

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 20 to gain a +1 to your barbarian class Rage counter. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)



Core Eighteen

Force Ward: You gain immunity to magic missiles and +5% Competence bonus to entirely avoid incoming Force damage.

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 20 to gain a greater restoration effect upon yourself. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 20 to gain a fast healing effect upon yourself: (Cooldown: 2 minutes)
(1d6+Epic Levels) every 2 seconds for 2 minutes. This is affected by positive spell power.
{Note Level 21 is the first epic level.}


Capstone

Mind Over Magic: You gain a bonus to your MMR equal to your Constitution score.

+2 Str +2 Con

Enhancement Bond

At Weapon Bond 25+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.

At Weapon Bond 50+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.

At Weapon Bond 75+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.

At Weapon Bond 100+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.

At Weapon Bond 125+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.




Tier One

Extend Rage

Your barbarian rage lasts 25%/50%/75% longer.


Ear Smash: Melee Attack

Deals +0.5/+1/+1.5[W] damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 2/4/6 seconds. (Cooldown: 12 seconds)


Parrying Bond

Parrying Bond: While Weapon Bond 10+: +2/+4/+6 Competence bonus to AC.


Uncanny Dodger

You gain +1%/+2%/+3% Dodge.


Awareness

+1/+2/+3 Balance, intimidate, spot. Rank 3: +1 Reflex Saving Throw



Tier Two

Willpower Rage

You gain +1/+2/+3 to Will saving throws while raged.


Knockout

Ear Smash puts enemies to sleep for 6/12/18 seconds. On Vorpal, enemies are stunned instead.


Guarding Bond

Guarding Bond: You gain +4 Physical Resistance at Weapon Bond 30+.

Rank 2: another +4 at Weapon Bond 60+.

Rank 3: and another +4 at Weapon Bond 90+.


Lessons of Travel

+2/+4/+6 energy resistance against Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire and Sonic damage.
reduce ap cost to 1/1/1


Antimagic Boost: Action Boost

+1/+2/+3 Action Boost bonus to saving throws vs. magic (Cooldown: 30 seconds)



Tier Three

Dispelling Strike

Attack: Performs a melee attack that deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage and dispels 1/2/3 beneficial effects from your target.
Cooldown 15 seconds.


Lessons of Nature

You gain +1/+2/+3 to save vs. both disease and poison. Rank 3: You don't fail disease or poison saving throws on a roll of 1.


Arcane Encumbrance

When enemies damage you with spells, there's a 10%/20%/30% chance they'll be knocked down. (Does not affect bosses.)


Kinetic Bond

Kinetic Bond: At weapon bond strength 45+, you deal 1d20 force damage with your attacks. This damage can trigger up to once every 3/2/1 seconds.


Ability Score Multi-select

+1 Constitution or +1 Strength



Tier Four


Viscious Strike

Melee Attack: Deals +1/+1.5/+2[W] damage and inflicts Feedback on the enemy for 6/12/18 seconds. (Cooldown: 12 seconds)


Anti-Occult Wonder

Activate: Smite your enemy with a melee attack that deals an additional 2[W] damage. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)

At Weapon Bond 120+, when you strike an enemy with Anti-Occult Wonder, you are healed by 1d2 per character level positive energy, and benefit from the effects of the Lesser Restoration spell. (The heal from Anti-Occult Wonder is affected by your Positive Spell Power)


Ability Score Multi-select

+1 Constitution or +1 Strength


Vampiric Bond {moved out of tier 5, scaled}
Vampiric Bond: At Weapon Bond 120+, your weapon provides you (2 * Character Level) temporary hitpoints when you damage an enemy. This can trigger at most once every 12/9/6 seconds.


Perfect Strike On a vorpal hit, you gain +10 to your weapon bond stack.



Tier Five


Metalline Bond

At Weapon Bond 100+, your bonded weapon becomes Metalline, bypassing the Damage Reduction of certain enemies.


Occult Evasion

You add your Constitution modifier to you MMR.



Bond of Retribution
At Weapon Bond 100+,

You receive +1 Crit multiplier on a 19-20 roll.



Bond of Morphic
At Weapon Bond 100+, your bonded weapon becomes Morphic, and deals bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.


Alignment Bond

At Weapon Bond 100+, your bonded weapon becomes Aligned, bypassing the Damage Reduction of certain enemies.






;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Older trees are found here:

Occult Slayer Barbarian Tree round 4


Core abilities

Core One

Weapon Bond
You build a psychic bond with your equiped weapons. You strengthen your Weapon Bond by damaging enemies with attacks, up to once each second. Your Weapon Bond is broken when you change either of your weapons or die.

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 1 to gain a +5 Insight bonus to Attack for 12 seconds. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)

Barbarian DR now equals (Barbarian Class DR + (Barbarian Level*0.75) + ((Enhancement DR + Epic Levels)*2)) while you are raged.



Core Three

Resistance: +1 to all saving throws.
Improve your barbarian damage reduction by +1.
Everbright Bond: While Weapon Bond 10+: your bonded weapon becomes Everbright.
{An Everbright weapon will not take durability damage from Rust Monsters or Oozes.}

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 5 to gain a +5 Insight bonus to AC for 12 seconds. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)


Core Six

Elemental Defense: When enemy spells deal elemental damage to you, there's a 25% chance you'll gain 25 + Barbarian Level temporary hitpoints for 30 seconds. This can trigger up to once every 12 seconds.

(Elemental Damage includes Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, Sonic.)

Improve your barbarian damage reduction by +1.

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 5 to gain a +5 Insight bonus to Energy Resistance for 12 seconds. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)


Core Twelve

Blank Thoughts: You gain the Slippery Mind feat and improve your barbarian damage reduction.

Improve your barbarian damage reduction by +1.

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 15 to gain a +1 to your barbarian class Rage counter. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)


Core Eighteen

Force Ward: You gain immunity to magic missiles and +5% Competence bonus to entirely avoid incoming Force damage.

Improve your barbarian damage reduction by +1.

Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 20 to gain a greater restoration effect upon yourself. (Cooldown: 2 minutes)


Capstone

Mind Over Magic: You gain a bonus to your Spell Resistance equal to your Constitution score.

+2 Str

Enhancement Bond

At Weapon Bond 25+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.

At Weapon Bond 50+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.

At Weapon Bond 75+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.

At Weapon Bond 100+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.

At Weapon Bond 125+, your bonded weapon gains a stacking +1 to its enhancement bonus.




Tier One

Extend Rage

Your barbarian rage lasts 25%/50%/75% longer.


Ear Smash: Melee Attack

Deals +0.5/+1/+1.5[W] damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 2/4/6 seconds. (Cooldown: 12 seconds)


Parrying Bond

Parrying Bond: While Weapon Bond 10+: +2/+4/+6 Competence bonus to AC.


Uncanny Dodger

You gain +1%/+2%/+3% Dodge.


Awareness

+1/+2/+3 Balance, intimidate, spot. Rank 3: +1 Reflex Saving Throw



Tier Two

Willpower Rage

You gain +1/+2/+3 to Will saving throws while raged.


Knockout

Ear Smash puts enemies to sleep for 6/12/18 seconds. On Vorpal, enemies are stunned instead.


Guarding Bond

Guarding Bond: You gain +4 Physical Resistance at Weapon Bond 30+.

Rank 2: another +4 at Weapon Bond 60+.

Rank 3: and another +4 at Weapon Bond 90+.


Lessons of Travel

+2/+4/+6 energy resistance against Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire and Sonic damage.
reduce ap cost to 1/1/1


Antimagic Boost: Action Boost

+1/+2/+3 Action Boost bonus to saving throws vs. magic (Cooldown: 30 seconds)



Tier Three

Dispelling Strike

Attack: Performs a melee attack that deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage and dispels 1/2/3 beneficial effects from your target.
Cooldown 15 seconds.


Lessons of Nature

You gain +1/+2/+3 to save vs. both disease and poison. Rank 3: You don't fail disease or poison saving throws on a roll of 1.


Arcane Encumbrance

When enemies damage you with spells, there's a 10%/20%/30% chance they'll be knocked down. (Does not affect bosses.)


Kinetic Bond

Kinetic Bond: At weapon bond strength 45+, you deal 1d20 force damage with your attacks. This damage can trigger up to once every 3/2/1 seconds.


Ability Score Multi-select

+1 Constitution or +1 Strength



Tier Four


Viscious Strike

Melee Attack: Deals +1/+1.5/+2[W] damage and inflicts Feedback on the enemy for 6/12/18 seconds. (Cooldown: 12 seconds)


Anti-Occult Wonder

Activate: Smite your enemy with a melee attack that deals an additional 2[W] damage. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)

At Weapon Bond 120+, when you strike an enemy with Anti-Occult Wonder, you are healed by 1d2 per character level positive energy, and benefit from the effects of the Lesser Restoration spell. (The heal from Anti-Occult Wonder is affected by your Positive Spell Power)


Ability Score Multi-select

+1 Constitution or +1 Strength


Vampiric Bond {moved out of tier 5, scaled}
Vampiric Bond: At Weapon Bond 120+, your weapon provides you (2 * Character Level) temporary hitpoints when you damage an enemy. This can trigger at most once every 12/9/6 seconds.


Perfect Strike On a vorpal hit, you gain +10 to your weapon bond stack.



Tier Five


Metalline Bond

At Weapon Bond 100+, your bonded weapon becomes Metalline, bypassing the Damage Reduction of certain enemies.


Occult Evasion {A warrior who is suppose to kill mages would surely have evasion?}

You gain the evasion feat.

You may use the higher of your Dexterity or your Constitution for your reflex save.



Bond of Retribution
At Weapon Bond 100+,

You receive +1 Crit multiplier on a 19-20 roll.



Bond of Morphic
At Weapon Bond 100+, your bonded weapon becomes Morphic, and deals bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.


Alignment Bond

At Weapon Bond 100+, your bonded weapon becomes Aligned, bypassing the Damage Reduction of certain enemies.

Silverleafeon
07-26-2014, 02:11 AM
Round 5 Ravager changes.

Added 20 melee power to capstone and removed ravager guard there.
Suggested possibly leaving tier 5 crit bonus alone.


Ravager Rerolled Round 5


Core Abilities


Core One

Furious Rage

When you are raging and miss your attack by rolling 1, you gain Fury for six seconds.
Fury: +1 Rage bonus to attack and damage. This effect stacks and one stack fades every six seconds.

When you have six or more Furies, you next attack that does damage also does 1d12 extra damage and 1 Fury is removed from the stack.


Core Three

Pain Touch

Your melee attacks deal 1d6 extra damage. This damage triggers at most once per second.


Core Six

Demoralizing Success

When you score a vorpal hit in melee, you gain 3 stacks of Fury.


Core Twelve

Pain Touch

Upgrades Pain Touch so your melee attacks deal 2d6 extra damage. This damage triggers at most once per second.


Core Eighteen

Devastating Fury

You receive the feat Stunning Blow for free.


Capstone

+2 Str

Your Rages last 50% longer.

You gain +20 melee power while under the effect of a Barbarian rage.



Tier One

Ritual Scarring

While you are under the effects of a Barbarian Rage your Potion {healing/repair} Amplification is boosted by ((Barbarian Level * X) + (Epic Levels * Y)) this is applied after any normal healing amplifications you already have. {Assume we are working towards pure Barbarian at level 20 close to 50% and at level 30 close 100% then X could equal 3ish and Y could equal 6ish}


Hate

On hit, your Melee Attacks Deals +(0.5/1/1.5)[W] damage and generate extra threat. This damage and effect triggers at most once per 8 seconds.


Do You Like Pain?

When you are hit: [20/40/60]% chance attacker loses 10 AC and 1 Fortification.


Barbarian Power Attack

Your Power Attack feat does 1/2/3 additional point of bonus damage but also has an additional -1/-2/-3 to your attack bonus.


Hardy Rage

+[1/2/3] Constitution when raging.



Tier Two


Fear me!

When you intimidate, add 25% of your Barbarian level to your intimidate roll.


Mutilate

Hate additionally deals 1d4/1d6/1d8 Charisma damage and 1d4/1d6/1d8 Evil damage.


I Like Pain

When you are hit: 2% to gain ((50/100/150) + (Barbarian Level *2) + (Epic Level *8)) Temporary HP.


Cruel Cut

On hit, your Melee Attack Deals 1d6/2d6/3d6 extra constitution damage. This damage and effect triggers at most once per 12 seconds.


Action Boost: Damage

Activate this ability to receive a +[10/20/25]% Action Boost bonus to weapon damage for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)



Tier Three


Roar of the Ravager

You gain Caphony Guard. {Copy and paste from Greensteel's versions.}


Slaughter

On hit, your Melee Attack Deals +(5/7.5)[W] damage. This damage and effect triggers at most once per 15 seconds.


Festering Wound

Cruel Cut additionally inflicts 1/2/3 5-seconds stacks of 1d6 Poison damage every 2 seconds and the target loses -50% healing amplification for 5/10/15 seconds. Damage stacks fade one at a time.


Salt in the Wounds

You gain Corrosive Salt Guard.


Ability Score Multi-select

+1 Strength or +1 Constitution



Tier Four

Laughter

For many Ravagers, there's no Laughter without Slaughter.
When Slaughter damages an enemy, you gain Fury. When Slaughter scores a critical hit on an enemy, you gain an additional Fury.


I Hit Back!

When you are hit: 20% chance to deal 2d8/4d8/6d8 chaotic damage to attacker.


Dismember

Cruel Cut additional slows enemy movement speed, or slows attack speed, or deals 2d4/2d6/2d8 chaotic damage, or deals 6d4/6d6/6d8 chaotic damage.


Bull Rush

Charge type attack, will let Sev fill in the math. Something classic D&D.


Ability Score Multi-select

+1 Strength or +1 Constitution



Tier Five


Critical Rage

While you are in a barbarian class state of rage, your critical multiplier is increased by 3x on a roll of 19~20.

{If this change is not made then +1 crit range ~ circumstance bonus? ~ doubles with improved critical feats.}

Or since I put 20 melee power into the capstone, replace back original wording:

"Critical Rage: Increases your critical threat range by 1/2 when raging."


Bully

You deal +[5/10/15]% damage to helpless enemies.


Devastator Glory

While you are in a barbarian class state of rage, your gain temporary hp equal to 5% of whatever damage you do with melee weapons.


Delight in Destruction

You gain +10/20/30% healing amplification while you are in a barbarian class state of rage.


Bull Charge

Charge type attack, will let Sev fill in the math. Something classic D&D.







//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Round 4 Ravager changes.

Removed a tier 4 and tier 5 guard and replaced them with Bull Rush and Bull Charge.
Left these open for Sev to fill in the math on them.
I think he can come up with something good.



Ravager Rerolled Round 4


Core Abilities


Core One

Furious Rage

When you are raging and miss your attack by rolling 1, you gain Fury for six seconds.
Fury: +1 Rage bonus to attack and damage. This effect stacks and one stack fades every six seconds.

When you have six or more Furies, you next attack that does damage also does 1d12 extra damage and 1 Fury is removed from the stack.


Core Three

Pain Touch

Your melee attacks deal 1d6 extra damage. This damage triggers at most once per second.


Core Six

Demoralizing Success

When you score a vorpal hit in melee, you gain 3 stacks of Fury.


Core Twelve

Pain Touch

Upgrades Pain Touch so your melee attacks deal 2d6 extra damage. This damage triggers at most once per second.


Core Eighteen

Devastating Fury

You receive the feat Stunning Blow for free.


Capstone

+2 Str

Your Rages last 50% longer.

Ravager Guard

Whenever you take damage by a melee attack, the foe that dealt you damage also takes 15% of that total damage itself.



Tier One

Ritual Scarring

While you are under the effects of a Barbarian Rage your Potion {healing/repair} Amplification is boosted by ((Barbarian Level * X) + (Epic Levels * Y)) this is applied after any normal healing amplifications you already have. {Assume we are working towards pure Barbarian at level 20 close to 50% and at level 30 close 100% then X could equal 3ish and Y could equal 6ish}


Hate

On hit, your Melee Attacks Deals +(0.5/1/1.5)[W] damage and generate extra threat. This damage and effect triggers at most once per 8 seconds.


Do You Like Pain?

When you are hit: [20/40/60]% chance attacker loses 10 AC and 1 Fortification.


Barbarian Power Attack

Your Power Attack feat does 1/2/3 additional point of bonus damage but also has an additional -1/-2/-3 to your attack bonus.


Hardy Rage

+[1/2/3] Constitution when raging.



Tier Two


Fear me!

When you intimidate, add 25% of your Barbarian level to your intimidate roll.


Mutilate

Hate additionally deals 1d4/1d6/1d8 Charisma damage and 1d4/1d6/1d8 Evil damage.


I Like Pain

When you are hit: 2% to gain ((50/100/150) + (Barbarian Level *2) + (Epic Level *8)) Temporary HP.


Cruel Cut

On hit, your Melee Attack Deals 1d6/2d6/3d6 extra constitution damage. This damage and effect triggers at most once per 12 seconds.


Action Boost: Damage

Activate this ability to receive a +[10/20/25]% Action Boost bonus to weapon damage for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)



Tier Three


Roar of the Ravager

You gain Caphony Guard. {Copy and paste from Greensteel's versions.}


Slaughter

On hit, your Melee Attack Deals +(5/7.5)[W] damage. This damage and effect triggers at most once per 15 seconds.


Festering Wound

Cruel Cut additionally inflicts 1/2/3 5-seconds stacks of 1d6 Poison damage every 2 seconds and the target loses -50% healing amplification for 5/10/15 seconds. Damage stacks fade one at a time.


Salt in the Wounds

You gain Corrosive Salt Guard.


Ability Score Multi-select

+1 Strength or +1 Constitution



Tier Four

Laughter

For many Ravagers, there's no Laughter without Slaughter.
When Slaughter damages an enemy, you gain Fury. When Slaughter scores a critical hit on an enemy, you gain an additional Fury.


I Hit Back!

When you are hit: 20% chance to deal 2d8/4d8/6d8 chaotic damage to attacker.


Dismember

Cruel Cut additional slows enemy movement speed, or slows attack speed, or deals 2d4/2d6/2d8 chaotic damage, or deals 6d4/6d6/6d8 chaotic damage.


Bull Rush

Charge type attack, will let Sev fill in the math. Something classic D&D.


Ability Score Multi-select

+1 Strength or +1 Constitution



Tier Five


Critical Rage

While you are in a barbarian class state of rage, your critical multiplier is increased by 3x on a roll of 19~20.

{If this change is not made then +1 crit range ~ circumstance bonus? ~ doubles with improved critical feats.}


Bully

You deal +[5/10/15]% damage to helpless enemies.


Devastator Glory

While you are in a barbarian class state of rage, your gain temporary hp equal to 5% of whatever damage you do with melee weapons.


Delight in Destruction

You gain +10/20/30% healing amplification while you are in a barbarian class state of rage.


Bull Charge

Charge type attack, will let Sev fill in the math. Something classic D&D.









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Changes for round 3
Earthen Guard replaced by Caphony Guard
Put crit bonus option in tier 5 for Devs, rewriting original without the bait and switch wording in it.


Ravager Rerolled Round 3


Core Abilities


Core One

Furious Rage

When you are raging and miss your attack by rolling 1, you gain Fury for six seconds.
Fury: +1 Rage bonus to attack and damage. This effect stacks and one stack fades every six seconds.

When you have six or more Furies, you next attack that does damage also does 1d12 extra damage and 1 Fury is removed from the stack.


Core Three

Pain Touch

Your melee attacks deal 1d6 extra damage. This damage triggers at most once per second.


Core Six

Demoralizing Success

When you score a vorpal hit in melee, you gain 3 stacks of Fury.


Core Twelve

Pain Touch

Upgrades Pain Touch so your melee attacks deal 2d6 extra damage. This damage triggers at most once per second.


Core Eighteen

Devastating Fury

You receive the feat Stunning Blow for free.


Capstone

+2 Str

Your Rages last 50% longer.

Ravager Guard

Whenever you take damage by a melee attack, the foe that dealt you damage also takes 15% of that total damage itself.



Tier One

Ritual Scarring

While you are under the effects of a Barbarian Rage you Potion {healing/repair} Amplification is boosted by ((Barbarian Level * X) + (Epic Levels * Y)) this is applied after any normal healing amplifications you already have. {Assume we are working towards pure Barbarian at level 20 close to 50% and at level 30 close 100% then X could equal 3ish and Y could equal 6ish}


Hate

On hit, your Melee Attacks Deals +(0.5/1/1.5)[W] damage and generate extra threat. This damage and effect triggers at most once per 8 seconds.


Do You Like Pain?

When you are hit: [20/40/60]% chance attacker loses 10 AC and 1 Fortification.


Barbarian Power Attack

Your Power Attack feat does 1/2/3 additional point of bonus damage but also has an additional -1/-2/-3 to your attack bonus.


Hardy Rage

+[1/2/3] Constitution when raging.



Tier Two


Fear me!

When you intimidate, add 25% of your Barbarian level to your intimidate roll.


Mutilate

Hate additionally deals 1d4/1d6/1d8 Charisma damage and 1d4/1d6/1d8 Evil damage.


I Like Pain

When you are hit: 2% to gain ((50/100/150) + (Barbarian Level *2) + (Epic Level *8)) Temporary HP.


Cruel Cut

On hit, your Melee Attack Deals 1d6/2d6/3d6 extra constitution damage. This damage and effect triggers at most once per 12 seconds.


Action Boost: Damage

Activate this ability to receive a +[10/20/25]% Action Boost bonus to weapon damage for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)



Tier Three


Roar of the Ravager

You gain Caphony Guard. {Copy and paste from Greensteel's versions.}


Slaughter

On hit, your Melee Attack Deals +(5/7.5)[W] damage. This damage and effect triggers at most once per 15 seconds.


Festering Wound

Cruel Cut additionally inflicts 1/2/3 5-seconds stacks of 1d6 Poison damage every 2 seconds and the target loses -50% healing amplification for 5/10/15 seconds. Damage stacks fade one at a time.


Salt in the Wounds

You gain Corrosive Salt Guard.


Ability Score Multi-select

+1 Strength or +1 Constitution



Tier Four

Laughter

For many Ravagers, there's no Laughter without Slaughter.
When Slaughter damages an enemy, you gain Fury. When Slaughter scores a critical hit on an enemy, you gain an additional Fury.


I Hit Back!

When you are hit: 20% chance to deal 2d8/4d8/6d8 chaotic damage to attacker.


Dismember

Cruel Cut additional slows enemy movement speed, or slows attack speed, or deals 2d4/2d6/2d8 chaotic damage, or deals 6d4/6d6/6d8 chaotic damage.


Crushing Waves

You gain Crushing Wave Guard.


Ability Score Multi-select

+1 Strength or +1 Constitution



Tier Five


Critical Rage

While you are in a barbarian class state of rage, your critical multiplier is increased by 3x on a roll of 19~20.

{If this change is not made then +1 crit range ~ circumstance bonus? ~ doubles with improved critical feats.}


Bully

You deal +[5/10/15]% damage to helpless enemies.


Devastator Glory

While you are in a barbarian class state of rage, your gain temporary hp equal to 5% of whatever damage you do with melee weapons.


Delight in Destruction

You gain +10/20/30% healing amplification while you are in a barbarian class state of rage.


Guard of Death

You gain enervation guard.




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Changes for round 2
Ritual Scaring is now potion amplification.
Added Devastor Glory in tier five as a 5% temp hit point generator per melee damage.
Changed the crit range to crit multiplier.


Ravager Rerolled Round 2


Core Abilities


Core One

Furious Rage

When you are raging and miss your attack by rolling 1, you gain Fury for six seconds.
Fury: +1 Rage bonus to attack and damage. This effect stacks and one stack fades every six seconds.

When you have six or more Furies, you next attack that does damage also does 1d12 extra damage and 1 Fury is removed from the stack.


Core Three

Pain Touch

Your melee attacks deal 1d6 extra damage. This damage triggers at most once per second.


Core Six

Demoralizing Success

When you score a vorpal hit in melee, you gain 3 stacks of Fury.


Core Twelve

Pain Touch

Upgrades Pain Touch so your melee attacks deal 2d6 extra damage. This damage triggers at most once per second.


Core Eighteen

Devastating Fury

You receive the feat Stunning Blow for free.


Capstone

+2 Str

Your Rages last 50% longer.

Ravager Guard

Whenever you take damage by a melee attack, the foe that dealt you damage also takes 15% of that total damage itself.



Tier One

Ritual Scarring

While you are under the effects of a Barbarian Rage you Potion {healing/repair} Amplification is boosted by ((Barbarian Level * X) + (Epic Levels * Y)) this is applied after any normal healing amplifications you already have. {Assume we are working towards pure Barbarian at level 20 close to 50% and at level 30 close 100% then X could equal 3ish and Y could equal 6ish}


Hate

On hit, your Melee Attacks Deals +(0.5/1/1.5)[W] damage and generate extra threat. This damage and effect triggers at most once per 8 seconds.


Do You Like Pain?

When you are hit: [20/40/60]% chance attacker loses 10 AC and 1 Fortification.


Barbarian Power Attack

Your Power Attack feat does 1/2/3 additional point of bonus damage but also has an additional -1/-2/-3 to your attack bonus.


Hardy Rage

+[1/2/3] Constitution when raging.



Tier Two


Fear me!

When you intimidate, add 25% of your Barbarian level to your intimidate roll.


Mutilate

Hate additionally deals 1d4/1d6/1d8 Charisma damage and 1d4/1d6/1d8 Evil damage.


I Like Pain

When you are hit: 2% to gain ((50/100/150) + (Barbarian Level *2) + (Epic Level *8)) Temporary HP.


Cruel Cut

On hit, your Melee Attack Deals 1d6/2d6/3d6 extra constitution damage. This damage and effect triggers at most once per 12 seconds.


Action Boost: Damage

Activate this ability to receive a +[10/20/25]% Action Boost bonus to weapon damage for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)



Tier Three


Fury of the Earth

You gain Earthgrab Guard.


Slaughter

On hit, your Melee Attack Deals +(5/7.5)[W] damage. This damage and effect triggers at most once per 15 seconds.


Festering Wound

Cruel Cut additionally inflicts 1/2/3 5-seconds stacks of 1d6 Poison damage every 2 seconds and the target loses -50% healing amplification for 5/10/15 seconds. Damage stacks fade one at a time.


Salt in the Wounds

You gain Corrosive Salt Guard.


Ability Score Multi-select

+1 Strength or +1 Constitution



Tier Four

Laughter

For many Ravagers, there's no Laughter without Slaughter.
When Slaughter damages an enemy, you gain Fury. When Slaughter scores a critical hit on an enemy, you gain an additional Fury.


I Hit Back!

When you are hit: 20% chance to deal 2d8/4d8/6d8 chaotic damage to attacker.


Dismember

Cruel Cut additional slows enemy movement speed, or slows attack speed, or deals 2d4/2d6/2d8 chaotic damage, or deals 6d4/6d6/6d8 chaotic damage.


Crushing Waves

You gain Crushing Wave Guard.


Ability Score Multi-select

+1 Strength or +1 Constitution



Tier Five


Critical Rage

While you are in a barbarian class state of rage, your critical multiplier is increased by 3x on a roll of 19~20.


Bully

You deal +[5/10/15]% damage to helpless enemies.


Devastator Glory

While you are in a barbarian class state of rage, your gain temporary hp equal to 5% of whatever damage you do with melee weapons.


Delight in Destruction

You gain +10/20/30% healing amplification while you are in a barbarian class state of rage.


Guard of Death

You gain enervation guard.





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Earlier trees are here:


Here is a complete restart over on Ravager.

First of all, I don't like the fear element in here.
I think we can do better.
Fear is necromancy.
Ravager is to work havoc; do ruinous damage.

Second, the fury need more emphasizes, but not connected to rage usage,
so Vorpal = 3 fury into core six. Placing a limiter on fury as well.

Third the cool downs in this tree are outrageous.
So they have been converted into the pain style of design.
You lose the ability to chose when it triggers, however it triggers more often.
This also provides a design requested by some for a more hands free melee for those who desire this playstyle.
{I think this could be a selling point for the Devs.}

Fourth, I added a lot of guard into the blank spaces.
Some people love guards, and this could be another distinctive selling point for the tree.


Ravager Rerolled Round 1


Core Abilities


Core One

Furious Rage

When you are raging and miss your attack by rolling 1, you gain Fury for six seconds.
Fury: +1 Rage bonus to attack and damage. This effect stacks and one stack fades every six seconds.

When you have six or more Furies, you next attack that does damage also does 1d12 extra damage and 1 Fury is removed from the stack.


Core Three

Pain Touch

Your melee attacks deal 1d6 extra damage. This damage triggers at most once per second.


Core Six

Demoralizing Success

When you score a vorpal hit in melee, you gain 3 stacks of Fury.


Core Twelve

Pain Touch

Upgrades Pain Touch so your melee attacks deal 2d6 extra damage. This damage triggers at most once per second.


Core Eighteen

Devastating Fury

You receive the feat Stunning Blow for free.


Capstone

+2 Str

Your Rages last 50% longer.

Ravager Guard

Whenever you take damage by a melee attack, the foe that dealt you damage also takes 15% of that total damage itself.



Tier One

Ritual Scarring

+[1/2/3] Intimidate, Haggle and Physical Resistance


Hate

On hit, your Melee Attacks Deals +(0.5/1/1.5)[W] damage and generate extra threat. This damage and effect triggers at most once per 8 seconds.


Do You Like Pain?

When you are hit: [20/40/60]% chance attacker loses 10 AC and 1 Fortification.


Barbarian Power Attack

Your Power Attack feat does 1/2/3 additional point of bonus damage but also has an additional -1/-2/-3 to your attack bonus.


Hardy Rage

+[1/2/3] Constitution when raging.



Tier Two


Fear me!

When you intimidate, there is a 20% chance to add your Barbarian level to your intimidate roll.


Mutilate

Hate additionally deals 1d4/1d6/1d8 Charisma damage and 1d4/1d6/1d8 Evil damage.


I Like Pain

When you are hit: 2% to gain ((50/100/150) + (Barbarian Level *2) + (Epic Level *8)) Temporary HP.


Cruel Cut

On hit, your Melee Attack Deals 1d6/2d6/3d6 extra constitution damage. This damage and effect triggers at most once per 12 seconds.


Action Boost: Damage

Activate this ability to receive a +[10/20/25]% Action Boost bonus to weapon damage for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)



Tier Three

Fury of the Earth

You gain Earthgrab Guard.


Slaughter

On hit, your Melee Attack Deals +(5/7.5)[W] damage. This damage and effect triggers at most once per 15 seconds.


Festering Wound

Cruel Cut additionally inflicts 1/2/3 5-seconds stacks of 1d6 Poison damage every 2 seconds and the target loses -50% healing amplification for 5/10/15 seconds. Damage stacks fade one at a time.


Salt in the Wounds

You gain Corrosive Salt Guard.


Ability Score Multi-select

+1 Strength or +1 Constitution



Tier Four

Laughter

For many Ravagers, there's no Laughter without Slaughter.
When Slaughter damages an enemy, you gain Fury. When Slaughter scores a critical hit on an enemy, you gain an additional Fury.


I Hit Back!

When you are hit: 20% chance to deal 2d8/4d8/6d8 chaotic damage to attacker.


Dismember

Cruel Cut additional slows enemy movement speed, or slows attack speed, or deals 2d4/2d6/2d8 chaotic damage, or deals 6d4/6d6/6d8 chaotic damage.


Crushing Waves

You gain Crushing Wave Guard.


Ability Score Multi-select

+1 Strength or +1 Constitution



Tier Five


Critical Rage

Increases your critical threat range by 1/2 when raging.


Bully

You deal +[5/10/15]% damage to helpless enemies.


Blood of my enemies

While you are raged, your equipped weapons gain the two properties: lesser vampirism and vampirism.


Delight in Destruction

You gain +10/20/30% healing amplification while you are raged.


Guard of Death

You gain enervation guard.

Silverleafeon
07-26-2014, 02:11 AM
This is a complete review of all Barbarian trees. Hope you guys like it. Feedback as always is appreciated... We want to save the class without making it overpowered. Nothing of these proposed change will make it OP DPS/Survivability wise considering the new levels of power acquired by Swashbucklers and soon by Paladins.

I'll jump into this thread from time to time to check how feedback going but I leave Silverleafeon the hard work of gathering what he thinks will fit as proposed change to DEVs :P .

Found here:


RAVAGER Tree

Core Enhancements
CORE[1] – Wound ‘Em!
Each time you critically hit an enemy it gains “Wounded”: 1d4 damage per stack over time each 2 seconds. Duration 6 seconds, stacks up to 5 times. Damage scales up with Melee Power.

CORE[2] – Pain Touch I
Wounded enemies get a -1 penality to damage, saves and skill checks per wounded stack. PASSIVE: you do +1d4 bleed damage with your attacks that scales 100% with Melee Power.

CORE[3] – Bleed them out!!
Wounded now stacks up to 10 times.

Core [4] – Pain Touch II
Your passive bleed damage rises up to +2d4 instead of +1d4.

CORE[5] – Smell for blood.
You gain +5% damage against helpless foes per stack of Wounded they have.

CORE[6] – This is how you will die!!!
(STANCE) Cruelty is the trademark of a ravager. Each time you vorpal you fear all nearby enemies like for fear spell. DC is 10 + ½ Barbarian Levels + Strength Modifier and duration is 6 seconds for the scare effect (on save) or 3 seconds for the fear effect (on failed save). Feared enemies are considered helpless. PASSIVE: +2 Strength.


Tier ONE Enhancements
Slaughter [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
Attack that uses SUNDER animation and does +(2/4/6)[W]. Cooldown 15 seconds.

Ritual Scarring [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
You gain +1/2/3 to Haggle and Intimidate and +2/+4/+6 to PRR.

I Like Pain [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
When you are hit: [20/40/60]% chance attacker loses 10 AC.

Barbarian Power Attack [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: Power Attack]
Your Power Attack feat does 1/2/3 additional point of bonus damage but also has an -1/-2/-3 to your attack bonus.

Extra Rage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
You can rage 1/2/3 additional times per rest.

Tier TWO Enhancements
Laughter [Cost: 2, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Slaughter]
For many ravagers, there’s no Laughter without Slaughter. When Slaughter damages an enemy you gain +(1/2/3)[W] on all your attacks for 7 seconds.

Fear Me! [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 5, Requirements: Ritual Scarring]
Enemies you successfully intimidate are Shaken for 12 seconds.

I Like Pain [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Do You Like Pain?]
When you are hit: 10% chance to gain 30/60/100 temporary HP.

Cruel Cut [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: None]
Melee Attack: Deals +(1/2/3)[W] and +1d6/2d6/3d6 constitution damage as long as you damage your target. Constitution damage scales up 50% with melee power. Cooldown 15 seconds.

Action Boost: Damage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: none]
Activate this ability to receive a +[10/20/30]% Action Boost bonus to weapon damage for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Tier THREE Enhancements
Aura of Fear [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 10, Requirements: Fear Me!]
Nearby enemies receive a -2 penality to all ability scores and a -4 penality to will saves against fear effects.

I hit Back! [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: Cruel Cut]
When you are hit: 20% chance to deal 2d8/4d8/6d8 Chaotic damage to the attacker. Scales up 50% with Melee Power.

Festering Wound [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: Cruel Cut]
Cruel Cut additionally inflicts 1/2/3 5 5-seconds stacks of 1d6 Poison damage every 2 seconds (scales 100% with Melee Power), the target also loses -50% healing amplification for 5/10/15 seconds and must make a fortitude save against 10 + ½ Barbarian Level + Strength modifier or loose [5/10/15]% fortification.

Strength [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 10, Requirements: none]
+1 Strength.

Tier FOUR Enhancements
Feel the Pain [Cost 1, Ranks 3, Progression 20, Requirements: Laughter]
Enemies that you hit with Slaughter are overwhelmed by your brutality: they must succeed a fortitude save against [10/12/14]+ ½ Barbarian Level + Strength modifier or become helpless by the pain for 2/6/10 seconds. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this effect.

Fury [Cost 2, Ranks 3, Progression 20, Requirements: None
Each time you score a vorpal hit you gain +[2/4/6] rage bonus to attack modifier for 12 seconds.

Dismember [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 20, Requirements: Cruel Cut]
Cruel Cut rises up to +(3/4/5)[W] and additionally slows enemies movement and attack speeds by 50% if they do not succeed a fortitude save against [10/12/14]+ ½ Barbarian Level + Strength modifier. Duration is 3/7/12 seconds.

Strength [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 20, Requirements: none]
+1 Strength.

Tier FIVE Enhancements
Rising Fury [Cost: 2, Ranks: 3, Progression: 30, Requirements: Fury]
Each time you score a vorpal hit you additionally gain +[1/2/3] bonus to damage and you attack [2/4/6]% faster for 12 seconds.

Dirty Fighting [Cost: 2, Rank: 3, Progression: 30, Requirements: I Hit Back!]
Enemies that hit you have a [5/10/15]% chance to become blinded for 6 seconds. PASSIVE: You gain +[1/2/3]% chance to dodge.

Critical Rage [Cost 2, Ranks 2, Progression 30, Requirements: Dismember]
You gain a +[1/2] Rage bonus to threat range of all weapons you wield. Additionally you gain +[4/8] damage on criticals before multiplier.




OCCULT SLAYER Tree

Core Enhancements
CORE[1] – Weapon Bond
You build a psychic bond with your mainhand weapon. You strengthen your Weapon Bond by damaging enemies with attacks, up to once each second. Your Weapon Bond is broken when you change your mainhand weapon or die. ACTIVATE: You reduce your bond strength by 1 to gain a +5 insight bonus to attack for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 1 minute)

CORE[2] – Resistance
+1 to all saving throws. Improves your barbarian damage reduction by +1. ACTIVATE: You reduce your bond strength by 5 to gain a +5 insight bonus to saving throws for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 1 minute)

CORE[3] – Blank Thoughts.
You gain the Slippery Mind feat and improve your barbarian damage reduction by +1.

CORE[4] – Thick Skin
Your resistance to magical damage increases as your skin thickens: you add your Constitution modifier as a bonus to your Magical Resistance Rating. Your barbarian damage reduction improves by +1.

CORE[5] – Repeal Magical Effects
Your physical preparation against magic reaches higher peaks. You can now add your Constitution modifier as a bonus to your Spell Resistance in order to avoid those magical effects that require saves. Your barbarian damage reduction improves by +1.

CORE[6] – Dead-Magic Zone
(STANCE) Your biology is lethal for casters. At this point you start to emanate an aura that renders magical casting more difficult: all the foes within the aura suffers 10% + ¼ of your Constitution modifier spell failure chance (does not affect bosses) for all the spells they cast. PASSIVE: +2 Constitution.

Tier ONE Enhancements
Hardy Rage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
Your barbarian rage gives you additional +[1/2/3] bonus to constitution.

Ear Smash [Cost: 2, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
Melee Attack: Deals +(1/2/3)[W] damage. Damaged enemies can’t cast spells for 2/4/6 seconds. Cooldown: 12 seconds.

Parrying Bond [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
While Weapon Bond 10+ +[2/4/6] Competence bonus to AC.

Uncanny Dodger [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
You gain +[1/2/3]% Dodge.

Wild Plants Lore [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
You knowledge of the wild helps you empower the effect of all the potions you drink. You benefit more from healing potions you drink: +[30%/60%/100%].

Tier TWO Enhancements
Willpower Rage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: none]
Your barbarian rage gives you additional +[1/2/3] bonus to will saving throws.

Knockout [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Ear Smash]
Ear Smash puts enemies to sleep for 6/12/18 seconds. On Vorpal, enemies are stunned instead.

Guarding Bond [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Parrying Bond]
You gain +4 PRR at WB 30+. RANK[2]: another +4 at WB 60+. RANK[3]: another +4 at WB 90+.

Lessons of Travel [Cost 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: none]
You gain a bonus of +[4/8/12] to your MRR and +[2/4/6] to all your energy resistances.

Wild Plants Remedies [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: none]
You deepens your lore of wild plants. Any potions you drink has an additional effect: RANK[1] remove disease, RANK[2] remove poison, RANK[3] lesser restoration.

Tier THREE Enhancements
Bond of Retribution [Cost: 2, Ranks: 2, Progression: 10, Requirements: none]
At Weapon Bond 120+ and below 50% health, you gain +1 critical damage multiplier on attack rolls of 19-20.

Lessons of Nature [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: none]
You gain +[2/4/6] bonus to save VS disease and poison. At RANK[3] you don’t fail these saves with a roll of natural 1.

Arcane Encumbrance [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: none]
When enemies damage you with spells, there’s a [10/20/30]% chance they’ll be knocked down. (Does not affect bosses)

Kinetic Bond [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: Lessons of Travel]
At Weapon Bond strength 45+, you deal 2d[8/10/12] damage with your attacks. This damage scales up 100% with your Melee Power Score and can trigger up to once every second.

Constitution [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 10, Requirements: none]
You deepens your lore of wild plants. Any potions you drink has an additional effect: RANK[1] remove disease, RANK[2] remove poison, RANK[3] lesser restoration.

Tier FOUR Enhancements
Vicious Strike [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 20, Requirements: none]
Melee Attack: Deals +(1/2/3)[W] damage and inflicts Feedback on the enemy for 6/12/18 seconds. (Cooldown: 12 seconds). Feedback: on enemy spellcast suffer 6-60 force damage that scales with target spell power.

Metalline Bond [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 20, Requirements: Kinetic Bond]
At Weapon Bond 100+ your bonded weapon becomes Metalline thus bypassing all metals damage reduction.

Perfect Strike [Cost: 2, Ranks 1, Progression: 20, Requirements: none]
On vorpal strike gains +10 Weapon Bond strength.

Constitution [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 20, Requirements: none]
You deepens your lore of wild plants. Any potions you drink has an additional effect: RANK[1] remove disease, RANK[2] remove poison, RANK[3] lesser restoration.

Tier FIVE Enhancements
Bond of Destruction [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 30, Requirements: Bond of Retribution]
While at Weapon Bond 180+, your Bond of Retribution doesn’t have a health requirement.

Vampiric Bond [Cost: 2, Ranks: 3, Progression: 30, Requirements: none]
At Weapon Bond 100+ your weapons deal an additional 1d4 + ½ Barbarian Level damage from negative energy and heals you for the same amount per hit you successfully land on living targets (can trigger at most once per 3/2/1 seconds). At Weapon Bond 150+ your weapons bestow 1/2/3 negative level each vorpal strike (can trigger at most once per 14/10/6 seconds).

Alignment Bond [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 30, Requirements: Metalline Bond]
At Weapon Bond 120+ your bonded weapon becomes Aligned thus bypassing all damage reduction that requires aligned weapons.




FRENZIED BERSERKER Tree

Core Enhancements
CORE[1] – Die Hard
You gain the Die Hard feat, and automatically stabilize when incapacitated. For each core you have your unconsciousness range expands by 10 HP including this one.

CORE[2] – Toughness
+10 HP. For each subsequent core you have you gain +10 HP.

CORE[3] – Frenzy
A Frenzied Berserker can enter a frenzy during combat. While frenzied he gains +2 strength bonus and all the weapons he wield gain Vicious. Activating this ability consumes 10 hit points. Duration: 1 minute.

CORE[4] – Wrathful Spirit
At expense of 50 hit points you regain one rage to your barbarian class rage counter. Cooldown 30 seconds.

CORE[5] – Greater Frenzy
The strength bonus from you Frenzy core enhancement rises up to +6 strength bonus and all the weapons you wield gains both Vicious and Greater Vicious. You also gain +1 Critical Multiplier on rolls of 19-20. Activating Frenzy now costs 15 hit points.

CORE[6] – Deathless Frenzy
Your unconsciousness range expands up to your max hit points (this substitutes the CORE[1] unconsciousness range expansion). The strength bonus from your Frenzy core enhancement rises up to +10. While Frenzied you regain consciousness if below 0 hit points and keep fighting. You die normally at –(your max HP). If hit by disintegration effect while negative hit points you die instantly. Activating Frenzy now costs 20 hit points.

Tier ONE Enhancements
Extended Rage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
Your barbarian rage now lasts [25/50/75]% longer.

Wide Cleaving [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: Cleave or Great Cleave]
All Cleave attacks have wider range and do additional +[2/4/6] damage.

Painless Rage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
While raging your PRR rises up by 4/8/12 points and your class damage reduction by 2/4/6 points.

Sprint Boost [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
+35%/40%/50% Action Boost Bonus to movement speed for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds.

Power Rage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
You gain +1/+2/+3 Strength while raging and -1/-2/-3 AC.

Tier TWO Enhancements
Angry Arms [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Two Handed Fighting]
+[1/2/3]% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +[3/4/5]% glancing blow damage.

Cleave Hate [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Wide Cleaving]
All your Cleave attacks (all means also ones from destiny and ones from this prestige class) generate [50/100/150]% extra hate.

Reckless Rager [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Painless Rage, Cleave Hate, Charge]
While raged and wearing anything equal or less than medium armor, for each foe you damage with a Cleave attack you gain +3 PRR and lose -1 AC. This stacks up to 3/6/10 times.

Tireless Charge [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Sprint Boost]
While raged and wearing anything equal or less than medium armor, you move [5/10/15]% faster and you ignore any speed movement penalty you may have.

Extra Action Boost [Cost 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: none]
You gain +1/+2/+3 additional Action Boost use per rest.

Tier THREE Enhancements
Mad Munitions [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: Greater Two Handed Fighting, Angry Arms]
+[1/2/3]% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +[3/4/5]% glancing blow damage.

Supreme Cleave [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: Cleave Hate]
Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 10 hit points to activate this ability to attack enemies around you. This attack deals +1/+2/+3[W].

Blood Trail [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: Supreme Cleave, Reckless Rager]
Supreme Cleave gives you 2/3/4 hit points per enemy damage up to 20/30/40. Lasts for 2/4/6 seconds.

Demolishing Rage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: None]
All your attacks with two handed weapons while raged do additional +1/+2/+3.

Strength/Constitution [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 10, Requirements: none]
+1 to Strength/Constitution.

Tier FOUR Enhancements
Wade In [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 20, Requirements: Supreme Cleave]
When you Supreme Cleave you gain +1 Primal bonus to Attack per enemy damaged up to 3/6/10 times. Lasts for 4 seconds.

Greater Uncanny Dodge [Cost: 2, Ranks 1, Progression 20, Requirements: Improved Uncanny Dodge]
Lowers Improved Uncanny Dodge cooldown to 60 seconds.

Mighty Sunder [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 20, Requirements: Demolishing Rage]
If you don’t have Improved Sunder feat you gain it, if you have it you gain +4 on its DC.

Strength/Constitution [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 20, Requirements: none]
+1 to Strength/Constitution.

Tier FIVE Enhancements
Focus Wide [Cost: 2, Ranks 1, Progression: 30, Requirements: Mad Munitions]
When you score a vorpal hit, you increase you change of triggering weapon effects with glancing blows by +10% and gain +10% glancing blow damage for 12 seconds.

Focused Wrath [Cost: 2, Ranks: 3, Progression: 30, Requirements: none]
While raging, increases the critical multiplier of all weapons you use by +[1/2/3] when you roll a natural 19 or 20 that is confirmed crit hit.

Devastating Rage [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 30, Requirements: Mighty Sunder]
While raged all your vorpal strikes inflict Improved Sunder and do additional 10d6 bane damage (like Vicious damage type).

Tantrum [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 30, Requirements: none]
Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 25 hit points to activate this ability and attack enemies around you. This deals +5[W] damage and has 50% chance to knock down each damaged enemy briefly on failed fortitude save vs. 20 + Strength modifier. Abilities that triggers on Supreme Cleave also triggers on Tantrum.





....Feedback...

....Feedback...

I like these. A lot of these abilities are better that what I was currently working on. Nice job

...feedback...

...feedback....


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Linkie

Noted, updated FB for something similar to this.


Worked things in to be similar to this, but not too much.

I've reworked my thoughts on the trees (multiple times), and have decided to leave it as they are now. I also worked in some feats to boost the Barbarian's Rage feature. Any feedback on this will be appreciated.


First off, the 'potion' I was talking about:
Barbarian Hip Flask:
Drink from a flask of soothing liquids to help bolster your strength. This drink grants 2d2 temporary hitpoints per Barbarian level for five minutes. As you gain more levels in Barbarian the amount of temporary HP that can be gained will also increase. (Cooldown: 5 minutes)
Enhancements from the Barbarian Enhancement trees can add special effects to your Hip Flask.
(2d2 temp hp at Lv3 when you get it, 2d3 at Lv8, 2d4 at Lv12, 2d5 at Lv16, and 2d6 at Lv20. The effects the Enhancements give the 'potion' all last 5 minutes, even if the temp hp is depleted before then.)


Second, some new feats:
Painless Raging:
While raging, you gain +10 Physical Resistance. (Prerequisites: Barbarian Rage, Toughness)

Improved Painless Raging:
While Raging, you gain an additional +20 Physical Resistance. Stacks with Painless Raging. (Prerequisites: Painless Raging)

Rage-caster:
You can cast spells or use scrolls or wands while raging on a successful Concentration check against 15 + your Barbarian level + Constitution modifier. (Prerequisites: Barbarian Rage, Mental Toughness)

Distracting Rage:
When you Rage, you also activate a Bluff effect against enemies around you (using your Intimidate instead of bluff). (Prerequisites: Barbarian Rage, Skill Focus: Intimidate, Intimidate 9 Ranks)


The Frenzied Berserker

Cores:
Core Level 1: Die Hard: You gain the Die Hard feat, and automatically stabilize when incapacitated. You also gain +1 Melee Power per point spent in this tree.
Core Level 3: Frenzied Conditioning: +15 HP. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant your melee weapons Lesser Vampirism for five minutes.
Core Level 6: Frenzy: Activation Cost: 10 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Enter a frenzy, increasing your strength by +2, increasing your Melee Power by 15, and adding Vicious to your melee weapons.
Core Level 12: Extreme Conditioning: +20 HP. Your Hip Flask now grants Vampirism instead of Lesser Vampirism.
Core Level 18: Death Frenzy: Activation Cost: 20 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Expend 20 hit points to enter a Death Frenzy for one minute. You gain 4 Strength and 20 Melee Power. You increase your crit multiplier by an additional 1 when raging. Your melee weapons gain 'Greater Vicious'.(+4d6 damage to your attacks while dealing 1d3 damage to yourself per attack.)
Core Level 20: Remorseless Brute: +4 Strength, +50 HP, +15 Melee Power. While enraged every time the Barbarian is damaged in combat he takes 1 (bane) damage per stack, then gains +3 Melee Power per stack for 6 seconds. This effect stacks up to 100 times, and is removed if the barbarian reaches 20% of his max HP. Your Hip Flask now grants 'Greater Vampirism' instead of Lesser Vampirism. (1d4+1 pos energy healing per hit)


Tier One - Requires Die Hard, Barbarian level 1

Extra Rage: +1/+2/+3 Rage use per rest (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Cracking Attack: Melee Attack: Deals +0.5/+1/+1.5[W] extra damage. Damaged enemies take 10%/20%/30% more damage for 20 seconds on a failed fortitude save vs. DC (10 + Half Barbarian level + strength modifier + Sunder modifiers) (Activation Cost: 5 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds) (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Die Harder: Your range of unconsciousness extends +10/+20/+30 HP. When you drop below 1 health, you gain 20/45/60 temp hitpoints. This can only trigger once every five minutes. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Reckless Rage: +1/+2/+3 Strength and -10/15/20 PRR while raging (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Athletics: +1/+2/+3 Balance, Jump, Swim, Tumble. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
-Rank 3: When you activate Barbarian Rage, you gain +20% Unique bonus to movement speed for 1 minute.


Tier Two - Requires Barbarian Level 2, 5 APs spent in tree

Angry Arms: +1%/+2%/+3% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +3%/+4%/+5% glancing blow damage. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Two Handed Fighting)
Body Blow: Damaging enemies with Cracking Attack reduces their Fortitude saving throws by 2/4/6 for 20 seconds. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Cracking Attack)
Blood Tribute: Activation Cost: 10 Hit Points. Gain +50/+100/+200 Temporary Health for one minute. You have a stacking -1 penalty to constitution until you rest or die. (Cooldown: 3 seconds) (AP Cost: 1 per rank, 3 Ranks)
Extra Action Boost: +1/+2/+3 additional Action Boost use per rest. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Haste Boost: +10%/+20%/+30% Action Boost bonus to attack speed for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds. (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)


Tier Three - Requires Barbarian Level 3, 10 APs spent in tree

Mad Munitions: +1%/+2%/+3% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +3%/+4%/+5% glancing blow damage (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Greater Two Handed Fighting, Angry Arms)
- - -
Blood Trail: When you Supreme Cleave, gain 1d3 temporary hitpoints per enemy damaged, up to 30 maximum. Lasts for 10 seconds. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank, Requires: Supreme Cleave)
Supreme Cleave: Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 10 hit points to activate this ability to attack enemies around you. This attack deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage. (Activation Cost: 10 Hit Points. Cooldown: 10/6/3 seconds) (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)
Strength or Constitution: Choose one:
+1 Strength OR +1 Constitution (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)


Tier Four - Requires Fighter Level 4, 20 APs spent in tree

- - -
Crazy Strike: When you score a critical hit with Cracking Attack, for 12 seconds you gain 33/66/100 temporary hitpoints and lose -20/-18/-15 AC & Physical Resistance while they last. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Body Blow)
Sapping Blow: Melee Attack: Deals +1/+2/+3[W], 1d4/1d6/1d8 Strength damage, and 1d4/1d6/1d8 Dexterity damage. When you hit an enemy with this attack, you benefit from the effects of the Lesser Restoration/Restoration/Greater Restoration spell. (Cooldown: 30 seconds) (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)
Wade In: When you Supreme Cleave, you gain +1 Primal bonus to Attack and Damage and -1 AC and Physical Resistance per enemy damaged, up to 3/6/10 maximum. Lasts for 4 seconds. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Supreme Cleave)
Strength or Constitution: Choose one:
+1 Strength OR +1 Constitution (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)


Tier Five - Requires Barbarian Level 5, Character Level 12, 30 APs spent in tree

Focus Wide: When you score a vorpal hit, you increase your chance of triggering weapon effects with glancing blows by +3% and gain +3% glancing blow damage for 12 seconds. Stacks up to 5 times. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank, Requires: Mad Munitions)
Focused Wrath: While raging, increases the critical multiplier of all weapons you use by +1/+2/+2 on Vorpal hits/Vorpal hits/Critical hits. (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)
Lash Out: Supreme Cleave has a 50%/75%/82% chance to cause bleeding to damaged enemies, inflicting up to 1/2/3 stacks. This can stack up to 5 times. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Slicing Blow)
Shattering Spin: Your Supreme Cleave bypasses 5%/15%/25% fortification, and critical hits made by Supreme Cleave inflict up to 1/3/5 stacks of Armor Destruction. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Improved Sunder)
Tantrum: Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 30 hit points to activate this ability and attack enemies around you. This deals +5[W] damage and knocks down each damaged enemy briefly on a failed Fortitude save vs. 20 + Strength modifier + Trip modifiers. Abilities that trigger on Supreme Cleave also trigger on Tantrum. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)




The Occult Slayer:

Core Level 1: Weapon Bond: You build a psychic bond with your mainhand weapon. You strengthen your Weapon Bond by damaging enemies with attacks, up to once each second. Your Weapon Bond is broken when you change your mainhand weapon or die. (Bond strength caps at 200 from in-game observations)
Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 10 to gain a +5 Insight bonus to Attack and Damage for 15 seconds. (Cooldown: 1 minute)
Core Level 3: Resistance: +2 to all saving throws. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant +5 Magical Resistance and +3 to saves against magic.
Core Level 6: Elemental Defense: When enemy spells deal elemental damage to you, there's a 25% chance you'll gain 25 temporary hitpoints for 30 seconds. This can trigger up to once every 12 seconds. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant an additional +5 Magical Resistance and +3 to saves against magic.
Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 20 to gain +25% elemental absorbtion for 15 seconds. (Cooldown: 90 seconds)
Core Level 12: Blank Thoughts: You gain the Slippery Mind feat. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant an additional +5 Magical Resistance and +3 to saves against magic.
Core Level 18: Force Ward: You gain immunity to magic missiles and +5% Competence bonus to entirely avoid incoming spell damage. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant an additional +5 Magical Resistance and +3 to saves against magic.
Core Level 20: Dance of the Magic-Killer: Passive: +2 Constitution and all saving throws. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant an additional +10 Magical Resistance and +3 to saves against magic.
Activate: Enter a trance and gain a +5 bonus to your saves against magic, a bonus to Spell Resistance and Magical Resistance equal to your Constitution score, and when you are hit by a harmful spell (whether or not it's nullified or saved against) you gain Empowering Bond for a number of seconds equal to your Constitution score. You are considered Raged for it's duration (which is the same as the Barbarian's regular Rage) and activating this ability dispels your Barbarian Rage. Likewise, activating your Barbarian Rage dispels this Trance. (Cost: 50 Bond, 1 Rage)
-Empowering Bond: Gain 2 Bond Strength instead of 1 when you damage opponents.


Tier One - Requires Weapon Bond, Barbarian level 1

Extend Rage: Your barbarian rage lasts [25/50/75]% longer. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Head Tap: Melee Attack: Deals +0/+0.5/+1[W] damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells and attack 20% slower for 2/4/6 seconds. (Damaged players/humanoid enemies make the Zombie Form animation for it's duration) (Cost: 5 Bond, Cooldown: 12 seconds) (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)
Parrying Bond: While Weapon Bond 10+: +[2/4/6] Competence bonus to AC. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Uncanny Dodger: You gain +[1/2/3]% Dodge. Rank 3: +1 Reflex Saving Throw
- - -


Tier Two - Requires Barbarian Level 2, 5 APs spent in tree

Willpower Rage: You gain +[1/2/3] to Will saving throws while raged. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Knockout: Head Tap also puts enemies to sleep for 6/12/18 seconds on a failed Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 Barb level + Str Modifier + Stun Modifier). On Vorpal, enemies are instead stunned for 6 seconds (no save). (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Kinetic Bond: At weapon bond strength 45+, you deal 2d6 force damage with your attacks. This damage can trigger up to once every second. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank, Requires: Parrying Bond, Guarding Bond)
Guarding Bond: You gain +4 Physical Resistance at Weapon Bond 30+. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
-Rank 2: another +4 at Weapon Bond 60+.
-Rank 3: and another +4 at Weapon Bond 90+.
Spell-warding Bond: Activate: All damage caused by spells deal half damage for 10/15/20 seconds. (Cost: 20 Bond, Cooldown: 30 seconds, treated as an action boost, benefiting from Action Hero in LD) (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)


Tier Three - Requires Barbarian Level 3, 10 APs spent in tree

Bond of Retribution: While at Weapon Bond 100+, whenever an enemy hits you, theres a 7% chance to lose 10 Bond Strength and then gain a +1 unique bonus to critical threat range for 6 seconds. Repeated applications do not stack, but add to the timer. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)
Lessons of Nature: You gain +[2/3/4] to save vs. both disease and poison. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
-Rank 3: You don't fail disease or poison saving throws on a roll of 1.
Arcane Encumbrance: When enemies damage you with spells, there's a [10/20/30]% chance they'll be knocked down. (Does not affect bosses.) (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Lessons of Travel: You gain +[3/6/10] to Energy Resistances.
+1 Constitution (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)


Tier Four - Requires Barbarian Level 4, 20 APs spent in tree

- - -
Arcane Absorption: While at Weapon Bond 50+, whenever a harmful spell is cast on you there is a 3%/6%/10% chance to reduce bond strength by 25 and then nullify the spell. (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)
Viscious Strike: Melee Attack: Deals +1/+1.5/+2[W] damage and inflicts Feedback on the enemy for 6/12/18 seconds. (Cooldown: 12 seconds) (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Reuires: Arcane Encumbrance, Arcane Absorbtion)
-Feedback - On Spellcast: Caster suffers 6-60 force damage. This damage is increased by the target's Spell Power.
Aligned Bond: While at Weapon Bond 100+, your weapon becomes Aligned, bypassing any Alignment-based Damage Reduction. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank, Requires Lessons of Travel)
+1 Constitution (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)


Tier Five - Requires Barbarian Level 5, Character Level 12, 30 APs spent in tree

Bond of Destruction: While at Weapon Bond 180+, you gain +1 Critical multiplier. While at Weapon Bond 180+, whenever you score a Critical hit, your bond strength is reduced by 30. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank, Requires: Bond of Retribution)
Vampiric Bond: While at Weapon Bond 75+, your weapon gains Lesser Vampirism. (AP Cost: 1, 2 Ranks, Requires: Lessons of Nature)
-Rank 2: While at Weapon Bond 150+, your weapon gains Vampirism in it's place.
Restorative Bonding Strike: Melee Attack: Perform a melee attack with +1[W] damage. If it hits, you and your nearby allies are healed by 1d2 per character level. (The heal from Restorative Bonding Strike is affected by your Positive Spell Power, if any) (Cost: 15 Bond, Cooldown: 15 seconds) (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)
Metalline Bond: While at Weapon Bond 150+, your weapon becomes Metalline, bypassing any metal-based Damage Reduction. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)
Crystalline Bond: While at Weapon Bond 120+, your weapon becomes Crystal, bypassing Crystal-based Damage Reduction. (AP Cost: 1, 1 Rank)



The Ravager:
Cores:
Core Level 1: Furious Rage: When you are raging and miss, you gain Fury for 6 seconds.
-Fury: +5 Melee Power. This effect stacks up to 5 times.
Core Level 3: Pain Touch: Your melee attacks deal 1d6 extra damage. This damage triggers at most once per second. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant +5 Melee Power.
Core Level 6: Demoralizing Success: When you score a vorpal hit in melee, you inflict Crushing Despair on nearby enemies for 30 seconds on a failed DC 20 Will saving throw. You then inflict Vulnerable Will for 15 seconds, regardless of the Crushing Despair saving throw. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant an additional +5 Melee Power.
Core Level 12: Pain Touch: Upgrades Pain Touch so your melee attacks deal 2d6 extra damage. This damage triggers at most once per second. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant an additional +5 Melee Power.
Core Level 18: Intimidating Fury: When you use Barbarian Rage, you trigger an Intimidate effect with a +15 bonus. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant an additional +5 Melee Power.
Core Level 20: Avatar of Fear: +2 Strength and Constitution, +5 Intimidate. On critical hits you have a 3% chance to regenerate 1 use of Rage (only once every 2 minutes), and on vorpal hits your target is paralyzed with fear for 3 seconds (no save). Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant an additional +15 Melee Power, as well as +15 Physical Resistance.


Tier One - Requires Furious Rage, Barbarian level 1

Ritual Scarring: +[1/2/3] Intimidate, Haggle and Physical Resistance. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Hate: Make a melee attack that generates double threat. (Cooldown: 30 seconds, AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)
Do You Like Pain?: When you are hit: [10/25/50]% chance attacker takes 15% more damage for 6 seconds. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Barbarian Power Attack: Your Power Attack feat does 1/2/3 additional point of bonus damage but also has an additional -1/-2/-3 to your attack bonus. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Fearsome Rage: +[1/2/3] Constitution, Intimidate, and saves versus fear while raging. (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)
-Rank 3: When you activate Barbarian Rage, you gain immunity to fear for 1 minute.


Tier Two - Requires Barbarian Level 2, 5 APs spent in tree

Fear me!: When you intimidate, affected enemies are Shaken for 6 seconds (DC 13). They then take a -10 penalty to saves against fear regardless of whether or not they saved. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank, Requires: Ritual Scarring)
Mutilate: Hate additionally does +2d4 Charisma damage and +2d6 Bane damage, and now generates triple threat. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank, Requires: Hate)
I Like Pain: When you are hit: 5% chance to gain 50/100/200 Temporary HP. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Do You Like Pain?)
Cruel Cut: Melee Attack: Deals 1d6/2d6/3d6 extra constitution damage. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Action Boost: Damage: Activate this ability to receive a +[10/20/30]% Action Boost bonus to weapon damage for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds) (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)


Tier Three - Requires Barbarian Level 3, 10 APs spent in tree

Aura of Fear: Nearby enemies receive a -2 penalty to Strength and Charisma. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires Fear me!)
-Rank 2: Nearby enemies receive a -2 penalty to Strength, Charisma, Dexterity and Wisdom.
-Rank 3: Nearby enemies receive a -2 penalty to all ability scores.
Slaughter: Melee Cleave: Deals +[5/7.5/10][W] damage to enemies in an arc. (Cooldown 1 minute) (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)
- - -
Festering Wound: Cruel Cut additionally inflicts 1/2/3 5-seconds stacks of 1d6 Poison damage every 2 seconds and the target loses -50% healing amplification for 5/10/15 seconds. Damage stacks fade one at a time. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Cruel Cut)
Strength or Constitution: Choose one:
+1 Strength OR +1 Constitution (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)


Tier Four - Requires Barbarian Level 4, 20 APs spent in tree

- - -
Laughter: For many Ravagers, there is no Laughter without Slaughter. Enemies hit by your Slaughter are also slowed down with intense pain for 6/12/18 seconds. (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)
I Hit Back!: When you are hit: 10%/20%/20% chance to deal 2d8/4d8/6d8 bane damage to attacker. Only occurs once every 12 seconds. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Dismember: Cruel Cut additional slows enemy movement speed, or slows attack speed, or deals 2d4/2d6/2d8 bane damage, or deals 6d4/6d6/6d8 chaotic damage. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Festering Wound)
Strength or Constitution: Choose one:
+1 Strength OR +1 Constitution (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)


Tier Five - Requires Barbarian Level 5, Character Level 12, 30 APs spent in tree

Visage of Terror: Terrorize enemies in a cone in front of you, killing them with fear if they fail a Will save vs your Intimidate. Enemies who make their saving throw are briefly paralyzed with fear instead. This is treated as a fear effect instead of a death effect. (Cost 1 Rage. Cooldown: 3 minutes) (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank, Requires: Aura of Fear)
- - -
Bully: You deal +[5/10/15]% damage to helpless enemies. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: I Hit back!)
Critical Rage: Increases your critical threat range by 1/2 when raging. (AP Cost: 2, 2 Ranks)
Feel no Pain: When you score a Critical hit while raging, gain 50 Physical Resistance for 2 seconds. Only triggers once every 10 seconds. (AP Cost: 2, 2 Ranks, Requires: Critical Rage)
-Rank 2: On a Vorpal hit, you instead gain 100 Physical Resistance for 8 seconds. Only triggers once every 30 seconds.








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Basic request, could have the highest possible cure potion a wizard could legally make in D&D pen and paper ruleset available somewhere for X favor from Y Patron?

Here is the 3rd edition rules.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingPotions

One is limited to 3rd level spells.
Highest level spell that can be made into a potion is Cure Serious Wounds.

Highest level a cure serious wounds can be cast is 15.

Cure Serious Wounds

Conjuration (Healing)


Level:
Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 4, Pal 4, Rgr 4, Healing 3

This spell functions like cure light wounds, except that it cures 3d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +15).


So it would do 3d8+15 positive spell energy, and we could make it min level 15.
It could be favored farmed for those silly people who don't want to be in a guild.
The Sovereign Host could be crafting them or the Twelve.

How about Free Agent~Famous/House D~Commended/The 12~Member of the 12 or other Favor?


This is a simple pnp legal request that has been requested many times.



How is this an improvement over the current guild vendor cure serious potions?
They are caster level 5, whereas this would be caster level 15.
So instead of 3d8+5 they would be 3d8+15 which is a nice but balanced addition to the game.

AbyssalMage
07-26-2014, 03:40 PM
First, thank you for moving it to its own separate topic. It will be much easier to follow the revisions. Hopefully people will find it here :)

Second,
I like making weapon bond "expendable" to gain temporary benefits. From a role playing aspect it makes more sense to me at least.

The addition of "guards" in Ravager is definitely unique. Not sure how I feel about them currently but my initial impression says they are not too powerful. They may need to be toggled to "future proof" them against developer design. I'm thinking of those dang spiders in Vale and Silver Flame in Necro III specifically.

You have a lot of "glancing blow" being handed out. Not sure if this is a good thing or bad thing. Once your past 100%, its worthless to have additional. Second, glancing blows only work on specific weapons and fighting styles. Not quite sure theoretically what a person would have taking THF x 3 and min/max tree in your proposal as it stands. Second, glancing blows only occur while standing still (is this true still?) where most players want to constantly move. I know number crunchers always add in Glancing blow but the player base as a whole only stands still usually on single "boss" targets, and even that isn't a given. This is the problem of theory vs. reality and I'm not sure where the developers stand. Theory says glancing blows adds extra damage but reality dictates that players tend not to "stay still and stationary" while being swarmed in the hardest content unless they want to become a Soul Stone.

the_one_dwarfforged
07-26-2014, 04:03 PM
You have a lot of "glancing blow" being handed out. Not sure if this is a good thing or bad thing. Once your past 100%, its worthless to have additional. Second, glancing blows only work on specific weapons and fighting styles. Not quite sure theoretically what a person would have taking THF x 3 and min/max tree in your proposal as it stands. Second, glancing blows only occur while standing still (is this true still?) where most players want to constantly move. I know number crunchers always add in Glancing blow but the player base as a whole only stands still usually on single "boss" targets, and even that isn't a given. This is the problem of theory vs. reality and I'm not sure where the developers stand. Theory says glancing blows adds extra damage but reality dictates that players tend not to "stay still and stationary" while being swarmed in the hardest content unless they want to become a Soul Stone.

they are "looking into" (or some wording like that) giving glancing blows back to regular attacks while moving.

also glancing blows proc on cleaves even while moving.

as for getting close to or reaching 100% gb dmg and effects proc, off hand id think its only possible to get a round 50% even if you took everything, and the price would be pretty significant unless youre using a build which has a lot of ap to spare somehow. so id say having the choice to pick it from more places, even if it eventually could put you over 100%, is a good thing.

Silverleafeon
07-26-2014, 04:51 PM
Ok, first, can you please start a separate topic so all changes you make will be in Post #1 and #2. That way it is easier to follow your revisions and because this is getting off the topic of the OP although I doubt he minds (but I could be wrong).


Done



Second, my thoughts:

Occult Slayer is about killing Wizards and their ilk. Speed (innate) and Stun (living)/Trip (for undead) would be very useful skills that are reliable on EE. This needs to be addressed and I think you are brushing the surface. Barbarians in 3.0 (along with Monks) were the run speed champions. Now it is Bard and Monk. I feel this needs to be addressed and Occult Slayer would be the proper tree to address this in.
Call it:

First to Battle - Innate Run Speed (1%/Barb) - Yeah its boring but easy to code
Bull Rush - which mimics the Lunge from Rogue Acrobat, Monk Step, and ED that allow super fast speed for a very short distance. Make it unique to Barbarian. Damages enemies in path at the cost of Fortification. PnP Charge rules but Fortification instead of AC.



I like these ideas, and will try to find room for them somewhere.



Lets talk about weapon bond. Make this like Ki which you expend to gain short term benefits to your weapons attacks. Monks expend Ki, Barbarians expend the bond they are creating with their weapon. This way you are not "building" up to some magical number that is lost if you switch weapons. Buffs on your weapon would last 1-3 minutes encouraging the Barbarian not to smell the flowers during adventures and keep to his thematic theme of waying waste to the inhabitants of any dungeon he enters. And if they have to switch to a Blunt weapon (for example), as soon as they switch back to their main weapon, they have the remaining time on their initial weapon which returns to the process of building "bond" to spend for the next time the buff expires.


I would be very happy to start a second Occult Slayer tree sample with the thought that the Devs could use either one or a hybrid for their final build. I did greatly expand the ability to use weapon bond for various effects like KI in the OS core abilities.



Frenzied Beserker is about damaging self for damage. I'm not keen on many of the suggestions presented but a workable compromise for EE's should be found. Your already taking huge spikes of damage in EE so inflicting more harm on yourself needs to be worth it.

This is a primary concern of mine, that Barbarians cannot use Cocoon and there are no decent potions for them to drink.
I want to fully address this issue somehow with multiple suggestions and options.


Something not addressed that I feel needs to be addressed is placing an Active Fighting Style in one of the tree's. This would be a multiple selector for either 2HF, 2WF, or SWF. Probably Tier 2 or 3.

TWF - Gain 20% off hand Attack chance. Anti-requisite Ranger tree equivalent.
2HF - -1 Sec. on your Cleave's cool downs (all or most of the many cleaves in game). Requires 2HF.
SWF - You can now use a Small Shield or Large Shield while SWF. Anti-requisite Bard eqivalent
Passive regardless of style - Modify +W[X], Crit. Multiplier and Threat Range of all Martial, D.Axes, and Q-Staffs so they are truly deadly in the hands of a Barbarian.



Although imperfect, I have started in that direction by adding a multi-select to the Frenzy tree.
Anywhere you see a THF option, you now have a TWF option.
Since SWF is considered strong, I hesistate to add to it atm.
I would love to hear ideas on crit multipliers but I want them tucked into tier 5 trees to prevent cherry picking.



When trying to think of SWF in historical context, the best I could think of would be the Norse; Wielding a large shield and Axe was my justification; in DnD literature, Dwarf's like their shields too. Also, not every barbarian should look the same and three different fighting styles allows this to happen. This line of thought was inspired by the 2WF Dwarf OS on the forums now :) (Sorry forgot the build name or author). Could even place in Core, probably a lvl 12 Core so a player takes a majority of Barbarian.

Single Weapon fighting does not work with a shield unless you have the Swashbuckler exception.
I feel shields usage is more a paladin and fighter situation, not a barbarian, so I am not planning on adding shield bonuses to this tree.


Please create a new forum with your suggestions so all edits remain in the first and second response to give proper feedback
Done, see the first 5 posts for current versions of ideas.


Just to be fussy about the details. :)

CSW, in DDO anyway, is: 3d6 +6 +1per caster level

Which is a bit of a net gain, in terms of average yield and low possible, over what you posted above Silver.
(3d8+15= 18-39hp ; 3d6+6+15= 24-39hp)

It's a nice workaround, btw. Turbine has always claimed that they were limited to CSW by WotC. Whether you believe that or not, this would still fit within that limitation.

Ofc, characters in DDO are still bloated hit point bags compared to deities in D&D, so a pot like that still amounts to throwing a hotdog down a hallway.

Heal amp would help quite a bit. A total amp of 1.8 or so would make a pot like the one you're talking average around 54hp each. Hardly game-breaking.

Thank you for the math.
I agree even boosting that potion is a modest effect.
Barbarians need more healing amp as well.

Silverleafeon
07-26-2014, 05:04 PM
First, thank you for moving it to its own separate topic. It will be much easier to follow the revisions. Hopefully people will find it here :)

Thank you.


Second,
I like making weapon bond "expendable" to gain temporary benefits. From a role playing aspect it makes more sense to me at least.


Yes, I like that too, it gives it a partial KI effect without being like KI.



The addition of "guards" in Ravager is definitely unique. Not sure how I feel about them currently but my initial impression says they are not too powerful. They may need to be toggled to "future proof" them against developer design. I'm thinking of those dang spiders in Vale and Silver Flame in Necro III specifically.

I too am concerned about the guards being over powerful.
I have played guard type builds extensively (my main toon has 3 concord opp), and find them to be minor in DDO overall,
so I am hoping we can work guards into this without overpowering.

This tree is also intended for players who might not even have real hands to operate the keyboards with.
Yes, I have meet and been in a guild with a ranger/fighter type player who served his country well in a military bomb disposal unit; so I do personally have experience with people who can play this game with artificial hands. I feel auto generated effects and guards would help them tremendously. You will notice there are very few push buttons in that tree. Players with tendonittus and arthritis may find this tree helpful too.

We have to also balance against the great defense of OS and greater hitting power of Frenzy.



You have a lot of "glancing blow" being handed out....[/b]

The glancing blows are copy and paste from the original tree.
I am adding a TWF option with them.


they are "looking into" (or some wording like that) giving glancing blows back to regular attacks while moving.

also glancing blows proc on cleaves even while moving.

as for getting close to or reaching 100% gb dmg and effects proc, off hand id think its only possible to get a round 50% even if you took everything, and the price would be pretty significant unless youre using a build which has a lot of ap to spare somehow. so id say having the choice to pick it from more places, even if it eventually could put you over 100%, is a good thing.

That is my impressions atm, thank you.

My additions also place off weapon procures at 80% +3% +3% +10%

Scrabbler
07-26-2014, 05:46 PM
Now that all Bards have +20% running speed (separate from the +15% mass speed that only Warchanters can get), Barbarians need at minimum something to make up the difference. An enhancement for 1% speed per 2 class levels, or maybe more. It could be attached / replace the existing Athletics...

RD2play
07-26-2014, 06:16 PM
Just a suggestion I thought up,

Feat: Apothecary - gain 10% more healing from potions for each 3 character levels (for a total of 100% at level 30)
- perquisite: int13 char level3
- can be taken as a fighter bonus feat?, artificer bonus feat?
- will be auto granted to barbarians at level ...3?...

This will also help a lot of melee builds that choose not the be BF... and coupled with healing amp from pl's or gear should make potion chucking a bit more barb-HP friendly.

Enhancements ideas:

Improved apothecary - 1/2/3 increases healing from potions by 10/25/50 % somewhere in a barb tree ? new tanky ftr tree ? 2ap ea. ?

"Rage chucking" - 1/2/3 decreases potion use cool down by 25/50/75 % while raged, but also gives a 1/3/5% chance to spill/drop the potion (consumable used).

Hope you like these or they give some inspiration.


*numbers are placeholder

the_one_dwarfforged
07-26-2014, 06:16 PM
My additions also place off weapon procures at 80% +3% +3% +10%

i would leave that out. i know i even suggested giving ravager a twf theme but after thinking about it that is supposed to be part of the appeal of ranger (and nowadays wind monks), barbs get other bonuses that rangers dont to compensate for not having full off hand strike chance if they choose to dual wield.

Silverleafeon
07-26-2014, 10:51 PM
Now that all Bards have +20% running speed (separate from the +15% mass speed that only Warchanters can get), Barbarians need at minimum something to make up the difference. An enhancement for 1% speed per 2 class levels, or maybe more. It could be attached / replace the existing Athletics...

I like that, and I'm hearing a lot of requests for speed increase of some sort.

I like that bull rush idea too.


Just a suggestion I thought up,

Feat: Apothecary - gain 10% more healing from potions for each 3 character levels (for a total of 100% at level 30)
- perquisite: int13 char level3
- can be taken as a fighter bonus feat?, artificer bonus feat?
- will be auto granted to barbarians at level ...3?...

This will also help a lot of melee builds that choose not the be BF... and coupled with healing amp from pl's or gear should make potion chucking a bit more barb-HP friendly.

Enhancements ideas:

Improved apothecary - 1/2/3 increases healing from potions by 10/25/50 % somewhere in a barb tree ? new tanky ftr tree ? 2ap ea. ?

"Rage chucking" - 1/2/3 decreases potion use cool down by 25/50/75 % while raged, but also gives a 1/3/5% chance to spill/drop the potion (consumable used).

Hope you like these or they give some inspiration.


*numbers are placeholder

This is awesome, we could give barbarians only some sort of super potion only healing lore.
Then maybe some sort of wilderness lore potion imbuing in dungeon.

I mean if Barbarians could brew ~ 100 stacks of (((1d8)*(Barbarian Level/5))+(Barbarian Level)+(Epic Level*10)) for cost of 1 rage with a 5 minutes cooldown, and Barbarians could have potion healing amp of (Barbarian Level * 10) ???

Hmm....


i would leave that out. i know i even suggested giving ravager a twf theme but after thinking about it that is supposed to be part of the appeal of ranger (and nowadays wind monks), barbs get other bonuses that rangers dont to compensate for not having full off hand strike chance if they choose to dual wield.

Yes, this might be a hard sell to the Devs if we start adding TWF bonuses?
I will likely remove that soon.

Qhualor
07-26-2014, 11:42 PM
my searchfu is about as good as a green belt in karate. im still trying to find something that makes "sense" for barbarians to heal better than CSW pots but still not OP. ive expanded my search into AD&D and 4E. best I can find right now is..

Feral Might

Barbarians connect with the natural world in a variety of ways. Some barbarians grow so hardened to physical punishment that they find it easier to simply absorb, rather than avoid, attacks. Others are living examples of the power of one's will to shape one's fate.

its not self healing, but it makes sense a barbarian growing up like a savage in tribes and fighting many battles would have tough skin. they know what pain feels like and their raging toughened body is able to push some of the damage they have taken to the side. maybe they can absorb damage that only reduces hp by a fraction. or like Deflect Arrows, are able to not take damage 1 hit per 6 seconds.

Rageblood Vigor

You gain the swift charge power. In addition, whenever you reduce an enemy to 0 hit points, you gain temporary hit points equal
to your Constitution modifier. The number of temporary hit points equals 5 + your Constitution modifier at 11th level and 10 + your Constitution modifier at 21st level.

First, im not a fan of temporary hp. it just doesn't seem to scale well in epics and as front line melees that always take damage and have agro, at best those temporary hp will absorb one hit on EH and down. on EE, forget about it. you take twice or more damage than what you can get from temporary hp. temporary hp relies on specific % procs.

Second, I don't like abilities that rely on last hit kills. theres already enough drama going on with Blitz.

its really the only thing in combat fighting that I can find for a barbarian.

Silverleafeon
07-27-2014, 04:43 AM
Feral Might.... Rageblood Vigor


Thank you for the searches, if nothting else they provide traditional names we can use, which help tie our roots into the pen and paper where possible.


First, im not a fan of temporary hp. it just doesn't seem to scale well in epics and as front line melees that always take damage and have agro, at best those temporary hp will absorb one hit on EH and down. on EE, forget about it. you take twice or more damage than what you can get from temporary hp. temporary hp relies on specific % procs.
Temporary hp is also hard to see and identify.


Second, I don't like abilities that rely on last hit kills. theres already enough drama going on with Blitz.
Yes, I have been trying to steer clear of bonus upon kill features.

Thanks again.

I am afraid we might have break some tie to core barbarian to overcome the strong restrictions of rage.
But as little as possible and thematically as possible.

Ancient
07-27-2014, 07:31 AM
I am still hoping for an enhancement that heals the barb for a small portion of the damage they do in combat. Something like 3 tiers at 1/3/5 percent.

It scales to epics, is different than other classes and would make sense to work while raged.

Skeen
07-27-2014, 10:26 AM
I am still hoping for an enhancement that heals the barb for a small portion of the damage they do in combat. Something like 3 tiers at 1/3/5 percent.

It scales to epics, is different than other classes and would make sense to work while raged.

I agree. Barbs are fueled by destroying their enemies, probably more than any other class. When they do damage or kill an enemy it would fit to have them gain HP back.
I like the HP related option of having Barbs gain 2x the number of HP from false life and vitality related items like Sorcs and FVS get from SP. This could be extended to heal pots too.

Let's face it, the devs want self healing to be accessible to everyone in their game and everyone has it except Barbs. I'm confident the next spin on Barbs will have a better self healing options than what we have now. We can feed the devs how we want this rolled out or let them come up with it on their own, but it's going to happen. Oh ya, and pile on more DPS please, especially in the DPS tree (Frenzy, in case you forgot :)).

Psiandron
07-27-2014, 12:55 PM
Just wanted to note a couple things.


I agree. Barbs are fueled by destroying their enemies, probably more than any other class. When they do damage or kill an enemy it would fit to have them gain HP back.
I like the HP related option of having Barbs gain 2x the number of HP from false life and vitality related items like Sorcs and FVS get from SP. This could be extended to heal pots too.

I like this idea. Makes a lot of sense and stems from the precedent FVS and Sorc ability. However, I am not sure how big of a code change that might be. I suppose if it were written into the character class code rather than the item code it wouldn't be that bad. Changing items in this game seems to entail a tremendous amount of labor, although maybe it's better now that we have thythtemth established. ;D



Let's face it, the devs want self healing to be accessible to everyone in their game and everyone has it except Barbs. I'm confident the next spin on Barbs will have a better self healing options than what we have now. We can feed the devs how we want this rolled out or let them come up with it on their own, but it's going to happen. Oh ya, and pile on more DPS please, especially in the DPS tree (Frenzy, in case you forgot :)).

Yeah, I wouldn't bet on that. The devs have actually made efforts to limit self-healing. Player demand has, imo, been what has been responsible for keeping it in the game.



Fear is necromancy.

Wow do I disagree with that statement completely.

Fear is not just a spell!

Creating fear is the essence of what a barbarian is. It is all about neutralizing whatever advantages that your enemies have and overcoming them by making them so terrified of you that they cannot properly defend themselves and fall underneath your blade.



Ritual Scarring

+[1/2/3] Intimidate, Haggle and Physical Resistance

+3 PRR, +3 to a skill that isn't really important to the game any more, and +3 to a non-combat skill...that should win an award for biggest waste of 3 AP ever.

Silverleafeon
07-27-2014, 04:24 PM
I am still hoping for an enhancement that heals the barb for a small portion of the damage they do in combat. Something like 3 tiers at 1/3/5 percent.

It scales to epics, is different than other classes and would make sense to work while raged.

I love this idea.

Hmm...Ravager or OS?
I am leaning towards Ravager atm...


I agree. Barbs are fueled by destroying their enemies, probably more than any other class. When they do damage or kill an enemy it would fit to have them gain HP back.

Aye


I like the HP related option of having Barbs gain 2x the number of HP from false life and vitality related items like Sorcs and FVS get from SP.

At first this was a new idea for me, but I am liking it more and more.
This could go in the class changes section.


This could be extended to heal pots too.
A simple 2x bonus for heal potions, I like that very much.


Oh ya, and pile on more DPS please, especially in the DPS tree (Frenzy, in case you forgot :)).
That tree will have to be looked over to make sure it is keep pace on the destruction it should do.


Just wanted to note a couple things.



I like this idea. Makes a lot of sense and stems from the precedent FVS and Sorc ability. However, I am not sure how big of a code change that might be. I suppose if it were written into the character class code rather than the item code it wouldn't be that bad. Changing items in this game seems to entail a tremendous amount of labor, although maybe it's better now that we have thythtemth established. ;D

Nods, new tech is always subject to technical limitations, but we can put it to the Devs when it is time.


Wow do I disagree with that statement completely.

Fear is not just a spell!

Creating fear is the essence of what a barbarian is. It is all about neutralizing whatever advantages that your enemies have and overcoming them by making them so terrified of you that they cannot properly defend themselves and fall underneath your blade.


Point well made, thank you.


+3 PRR, +3 to a skill that isn't really important to the game any more, and +3 to a non-combat skill...that should win an award for biggest waste of 3 AP ever.

This is one will be on the list for next to change, I reinserted it back in when I moved to this new thread.



Thanks for the feedback, it is appreciated.

serthcore
07-27-2014, 05:08 PM
Few things:
dps: i don't see a huge increase on dps on any tree other than adding twf option and looking at some cooldowns (and guards?), but others are note: i dont know the maths, but when i played barb i didnt see that the dps was higher than some centered kenseis or other builds with better survivality.
healing amp: 30% is very nice, but not everyone is going to go tier 5 on ravager, what about putting 5% on each level of ravager (and 10% at tier 5)?
Rage regen: this is a "game changer" and i think that 25 hp is a joke, maybe -25 to max hp instead?
Temp hp on kills: thanks for adding this! No remorse was huge on barb/crusader.
Weapon bond: it still goes off when you switch weapons? Would love to keep it when i switch to scrolls/clickies!

Nightmanis
07-27-2014, 06:12 PM
Few things:
dps: i don't see a huge increase on dps on any tree other than adding twf option and looking at some cooldowns (and guards?), but others are note: i dont know the maths, but when i played barb i didnt see that the dps was higher than some centered kenseis or other builds with better survivality.
healing amp: 30% is very nice, but not everyone is going to go tier 5 on ravager, what about putting 5% on each level of ravager (and 10% at tier 5)?
Rage regen: this is a "game changer" and i think that 25 hp is a joke, maybe -25 to max hp instead?
Temp hp on kills: thanks for adding this! No remorse was huge on barb/crusader.
Weapon bond: it still goes off when you switch weapons? Would love to keep it when i switch to scrolls/clickies!

Depending on how you want to set it up, have the cores up to level 12 grant a certain %, then maybe have a couple rising tiers towards the top. Make them stack additively, and have it explicitly state that. You could make them stack to 35%.

One this that's going to need to happen is someone is going to have to mock up what the new trees are going to be laid out as. Placing them on paper is well and good, but I'm a bit pessimistic and think it'll need to be drawn out now with the current setup to see if everything will go together correctly.

Silverleafeon
07-27-2014, 06:26 PM
Few things:
dps: i don't see a huge increase on dps on any tree other than adding twf option and looking at some cooldowns (and guards?), but others are note: i dont know the maths, but when i played barb i didnt see that the dps was higher than some centered kenseis or other builds with better survivality.

That is a concern that needs to be addressed.
thank you.


healing amp: 30% is very nice, but not everyone is going to go tier 5 on ravager, what about putting 5% on each level of ravager (and 10% at tier 5)?

Interesting idea.
I am getting fond of potion only healing amp as well.
Wondering if we can slip that into the OS tree somewhere.



Rage regen: this is a "game changer" and i think that 25 hp is a joke, maybe -25 to max hp instead?

It is certainly a new concept and will be tossing into onto the table somewhere for the Devs to consider.
It would allow one to pause, rebuff, heal up and continue back into rage mod.
I don't like permanent max hp debuffs as this makes it very unpopular, but would consider greatly increase the hp cost.



Temp hp on kills: thanks for adding this! No remorse was huge on barb/crusader.
Aye, temp hp seems to be Barbarian bread and butter, even thought I prefer real hp.


Weapon bond: it still goes off when you switch weapons? Would love to keep it when i switch to scrolls/clickies!
We probably need to consider incorporating a % valued saved somewhere in Tier 5.
Without some sort of penalty, the whole aspect is worthless.

The only reason to swap to scrolls or clickies is if you are not raged, which brings into debate that creating more rages concept...


But in the case of weapon bond creating more rages, that is essential if the OS barbarian wants to skip a shrine to keep his weapon bond.

Silverleafeon
07-27-2014, 06:29 PM
Depending on how you want to set it up, have the cores up to level 12 grant a certain %, then maybe have a couple rising tiers towards the top. Make them stack additively, and have it explicitly state that. You could make them stack to 35%.


I like the rising tier concept.

Deadlock suggested some of that for my Sorcerer work, and it could work here as well.



One this that's going to need to happen is someone is going to have to mock up what the new trees are going to be laid out as. Placing them on paper is well and good, but I'm a bit pessimistic and think it'll need to be drawn out now with the current setup to see if everything will go together correctly.
Good idea.

Shall I leave the old tree right below the new tree each time, that way you can compare the two and tell me where I went wrong/right?
I'll try to leave everything on the first posts so you can find them easily.

Next round in a few days hopefully, great suggestions everyone....

Psiandron
07-27-2014, 06:34 PM
I am getting fond of potion only healing amp as well.
Wondering if we can slip that into the OS tree somewhere.


I've turned that over in my head a few times before. While I understand that it sounds nifty and swell, I think that's looking at it out of context really. Healers won't appreciate low-amp barbs. If it's possible, putting a limit on self-used stuff so that only pots get a bump that's great, but incoming hjeals ought to get an amp no matter what.

Qhualor
07-27-2014, 07:09 PM
I've turned that over in my head a few times before. While I understand that it sounds nifty and swell, I think that's looking at it out of context really. Healers won't appreciate low-amp barbs. If it's possible, putting a limit on self-used stuff so that only pots get a bump that's great, but incoming hjeals ought to get an amp no matter what.

the only trees that have heal amp are Shintao and KOTC. Shintao is 5% per core for a total of 30% and KOTC has 10% for tier 3, 4 and 5 for a total of 30%.

as much as I would like heal amp for barbs, it would seem the devs have set a pattern here, especially since only 2 races, human and helves, can improve their hamp. there are very limited heal amp items in the game. what bugs me a lot is that there are very few items in the game that a barb or melee type can benefit from heal amp and they are gloves only. what also bugs me is that warforged don't really have any way to boost their repairs. heal amp is predominant in this game, unless you are a self sufficient caster or bladeforged. warforged fighters and barbarians that rely on pots to survive have to maximize their heal amp as much as possible and use SF pots that heal for half as much as a fleshy.

I think every class and race should have heal amp in their trees, but if its going to be limited to specific classes/races and heal amp items are going to be limited and specific than I see no reason why barbs cant have enhancements that boost incoming positive healing from pots or they are in such a furious rage that drinking the blood of their enemies rejuvenates a barbs energy or something to that affect.

the_one_dwarfforged
07-27-2014, 10:12 PM
i dont like all this talk of increasing the effectiveness of drinking potions on barbs, and increasing hamp, and/or making them self healing in any meaningful way. barbs already self heal via sf pots.

vampirism (only because its a small amount per hit) and temp hp are really the way to go i think, and as far as self sufficiency should go for barbarians. not every class should be totally self sufficient, and not every class should be good at it. what do you need a healer for when the barb can chug potions and stay alive all on his own? and the sad thing is were already at that point, good barbs go solo tough quests and when they need the big heal they chug a sf pot.

on the other hand i dont think its right to necessitate that some classes require a healer when not in the hands of a skilled/longtime player with lots of stuff and favor. thats why i like the idea of having many temp hp procs, because if balanced right it would reward barbarians for staying in the fight because fighting = more temp hp = less dying, and it should proc just so often for just so much temp hp that the barb is not invincible but can stay alive long enough to not get nuked and give his party the chance to heal him.

if you want to play a melee with good self healing, play a paladin. just remember they have terrible dps. could be that way for a reason...

the_one_dwarfforged
07-27-2014, 10:20 PM
Aye, temp hp seems to be Barbarian bread and butter, even thought I prefer real hp.

everyone does, but as long barbs can stack their temp hp procs either to a very high point or indefinitely and they arent on a timer, then they will be just as good as real hp at solving any staying alive issues for barbarians without taking away the healers job or turning barbs into a self healing class with good dps, which would not play well with other dynamics of the game. temp hp doesnt have that problem if the numbers are done right.

Psiandron
07-27-2014, 11:55 PM
the only trees that have heal amp are Shintao and KOTC. Shintao is 5% per core for a total of 30% and KOTC has 10% for tier 3, 4 and 5 for a total of 30%.

as much as I would like heal amp for barbs, it would seem the devs have set a pattern here, especially since only 2 races, human and helves, can improve their hamp. there are very limited heal amp items in the game. what bugs me a lot is that there are very few items in the game that a barb or melee type can benefit from heal amp and they are gloves only. what also bugs me is that warforged don't really have any way to boost their repairs. heal amp is predominant in this game, unless you are a self sufficient caster or bladeforged. warforged fighters and barbarians that rely on pots to survive have to maximize their heal amp as much as possible and use SF pots that heal for half as much as a fleshy.

I think every class and race should have heal amp in their trees, but if its going to be limited to specific classes/races and heal amp items are going to be limited and specific than I see no reason why barbs cant have enhancements that boost incoming positive healing from pots or they are in such a furious rage that drinking the blood of their enemies rejuvenates a barbs energy or something to that affect.

I agree with you.

However, I don't think that that means that we should stop asking for it.

Turbine seems to be recognizing the notion that it's time to rebuild barbarian after they put the wrecking ball to it and I think that we should drive home the opportunity to try get them to add this mechanic to the class which honestly, probably deserves to have it more than any other class in the game.

While I do think it's nice to come up with new and interesting ideas to get around that need, the fact is that new and interesting mechanics generally take more time and money to develop and code. It's cheaper to lift a working mechanic from elsewhere and plop it into an additional location.

And, I believe that you and I are completely agreed that the concept of 'temporary' hp is completely unacceptable.

Silver has done a great job of coordinating this rebuilding project to try to come up with workable new trees for a class that has become one that is seldom played. I think that the new trees need to be acceptable to Turbine, but also...no, more importantly, they need to be acceptable to the players. Without heal amp, I am very concerned for the long-term viability of the class.

mezzorco
07-28-2014, 04:43 AM
Fear me!

When you intimidate, there is a 20% chance to add your Barbarian level to your intimidate roll.

When you're going to intimi-tank, you want to reliably intimidate foes.
Let's say you're a pure 20 barb. Once every five tries "fear me" procs for a +20 to intimidate.

You either fail other four intimidates due to "fear me" not proccing, or you land them all, meaning you don't need this enhancement.

To be something useful, it should be "you add 25% of your barbarian level to EACH intimidate attempt".
It's a +5 bonus if going pure, nothing exaggerated, but it will help you land your intimidates without relying on procs.

It makes more sense, too: you either are intimidating, or you're not.

Silverleafeon
07-28-2014, 04:55 AM
When you're going to intimi-tank, you want to reliably intimidate foes.
Let's say you're a pure 20 barb. Once every five tries "fear me" procs for a +20 to intimidate.

You either fail other four intimidates due to "fear me" not proccing, or you land them all, meaning you don't need this enhancement.

To be something useful, it should be "you add 25% of your barbarian level to EACH intimidate attempt".
It's a +5 bonus if going pure, nothing exaggerated, but it will help you land your intimidates without relying on procs.

It makes more sense, too: you either are intimidating, or you're not.

Excellent, will be changing in next round thus.

Silverleafeon
07-28-2014, 03:41 PM
Sev has posted a new Official thread which indirectly affects all this.
You might go take a look at it, I will wait on a new round till a few days so people can read what he posts.

Qhualor
07-28-2014, 03:51 PM
did he write it in invisible ink? :)

Silverleafeon
07-28-2014, 04:25 PM
LOL
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446136-Armor-Up-Developer-Diary-1
Armor up Dev Diary 1


Reading thru all the healing amp / potions / healing options posts, well said.
It is quite a class tangle to weave thru, "how should barbarians survive in epics?"


llll Sev is busy today:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446138-Armor-Up-Developer-Diary-2?p=5390480#post5390480

Edit, now that Sev's "Melee Power" is no longer NDA, I feel like Barbarians should have a healthy dose of it in all three trees.
But I don't quite understand it enough yet to introduce anything but fuzzy numbers, so far....



;;;;;


Need to make a list of all the things Barbarians can use while raged:
Lay on hands
Consecration

Wonder if Barbarians can use these, why not Cocoon?

mrunlimited
07-28-2014, 09:27 PM
Here are my thoughts on Barbies,
First off I do not know where there dps stands so I cannot comment on it well. However I had some interesting concepts for the survivability aspect of them:

Firstly, Barbs are all about damage reduction. They should gain dubious amounts of dr/ - that just cannot be bypassed. This obviously needs to scale well into epic levels, even dr/50 i feel is not unreasonable if you work it into a captsone. Maybe uneccesary to be that high when they fix armor mitigation.
Secondly, for self healing they do not need spell casting abilities when raged or even special potions. I feel like an enhancement like "trollblood: you gain fast healing x, x+y, x+y+z that is based on positive spell power and procs once a minute" coupled with good dr and prr would be quite sufficient. Add in a little vampirism proc chance on strike and bam they can hold their own. Also one other idea is abilities in the tree that cause a paralyzing fear line, similar to the wc frozen fury line with the t5 being aoe, will mitigate a lot of damage and be flavorable.

Skeen
07-28-2014, 11:18 PM
When you're going to intimi-tank, you want to reliably intimidate foes.
Let's say you're a pure 20 barb. Once every five tries "fear me" procs for a +20 to intimidate.

You either fail other four intimidates due to "fear me" not proccing, or you land them all, meaning you don't need this enhancement.

To be something useful, it should be "you add 25% of your barbarian level to EACH intimidate attempt".
It's a +5 bonus if going pure, nothing exaggerated, but it will help you land your intimidates without relying on procs.

It makes more sense, too: you either are intimidating, or you're not.


I'm all for dropping any intimidation and adding something else, diversion maybe. I've always stayed away from aggro when I play a Barb because they don't have the damage mitigation to hold any aggro for long. Let's face it, when you are lowering your AC and HP when you use your primary abilities why would you want to attract attention to yourself?

Silverleafeon
07-29-2014, 12:59 PM
I'm all for dropping any intimidation and adding something else, diversion maybe. I've always stayed away from aggro when I play a Barb because they don't have the damage mitigation to hold any aggro for long. Let's face it, when you are lowering your AC and HP when you use your primary abilities why would you want to attract attention to yourself?

That is an excellent question.

Should Barbarians who now lack the survivability to do EE or EH without resorting to dropping rage, using silver flame potions, or making sure a healer is in the group be attracting extra agro?

Ancient
07-29-2014, 01:21 PM
As a member of the Player's Council, I am allowed to present my own personal projects and vision for the future of DDO.

It was great to read something positive on the forums. Thank you!

Seikojin
07-29-2014, 02:19 PM
I relly like these suggestions, however I think all capstones need either double stat, or secondary stat of +2 to con. This would be more in alignment with a shift I am seeing with other trees; getting that +4 stat bonus they deserve.

AbyssalMage
07-29-2014, 05:40 PM
Firstly, Barbs are all about damage reduction. They should gain dubious amounts of dr/ - that just cannot be bypassed. This obviously needs to scale well into epic levels, even dr/50 i feel is not unreasonable if you work it into a captsone. Maybe uneccesary to be that high when they fix armor mitigation.
Honestly this should be the answer but keeping DR scaled to end game content doesn't seem viable currently and I don't think the developers understand where they are taking the game for end game purposes. DR worked from 1-20 from what I read in early DDO but scaling/power creep threw the game and DR out of alignment. Honestly may be too much hassle. Worth asking for, sure, but expecting to work, no.


Secondly, for self healing they do not need spell casting abilities when raged or even special potions. I feel like an enhancement like "trollblood: you gain fast healing x, x+y, x+y+z that is based on positive spell power and procs once a minute" coupled with good dr and prr would be quite sufficient. Add in a little vampirism proc chance on strike and bam they can hold their own. Also one other idea is abilities in the tree that cause a paralyzing fear line, similar to the wc frozen fury line with the t5 being aoe, will mitigate a lot of damage and be flavorable.
Not sure I would call it "Trollblood" but I definitely like the direction.

But doesn't this go back to Cocoon? Once a minute is too long to be effective. The only time I am standing around for long periods of time, regardless of class, is at the beginning of an adventure, forced Turbine waits, and splitting treasure (usually named loot I don't need/want). A regenerative healing aura, fueled by the blood of your enemies as you slaughter them I could also believe from a Role Playing perspective. Cocoon in its basic form: Temp HP + Quick Regen. So it can fit in very thematically for the Barbarian class. Would also address a need in the Frenzy Tree of healing after self-damage.

mrunlimited
07-29-2014, 09:37 PM
So basically the fast healing would work like and stack with the ed ability in fotw. Ive found this healing to be quite useful at times as it often tics in mid combat. If you are gaining some temp hp here and there that gets knocked off the top and have good mitigation you may only need a cure critical pot here and there.

Qhualor
07-29-2014, 09:59 PM
Here are my thoughts on Barbies,
Secondly, for self healing they do not need spell casting abilities when raged or even special potions. I feel like an enhancement like "trollblood: you gain fast healing x, x+y, x+y+z that is based on positive spell power and procs once a minute" coupled with good dr and prr would be quite sufficient. Add in a little vampirism proc chance on strike and bam they can hold their own. Also one other idea is abilities in the tree that cause a paralyzing fear line, similar to the wc frozen fury line with the t5 being aoe, will mitigate a lot of damage and be flavorable.

the reason why Fast Healing doesn't work well in FOTW is because its 6d20 per minute. there would have to be a lot of damage mitigation for that to be effective, even if you stacked "trolls blood" on top of that. I can go along with an enhancement that heals you like trolls have fast healing, but it has to be actually fast. 6d20 every 15 seconds might be ok for in a pinch fights and you fumble the keys to drink a pot, but I would still feel more comfortable with a more solid self sufficient and thematic way for barbs to self heal better and for more hp right now and not 60 seconds later.

Damion01
07-30-2014, 02:37 PM
The developers probably really have to think this out also for multi-classing purposes. It would be insane to give a Barbarian like +100 DR while raged.. just to have a rouge take 1 level of barbarian and run around with +100 DR while raged? or a monk or fighter take a couple of levels of barbarian then become indestructible. Balancing is really the key here, but having a 28 pure barb myself i would love to see some sort of *while engraged* DR 100 EPIC or something along those lines.. but so that its not being abused by other multi-class specs. I always think of a barbarian as ENRAGING.. running through a crowd of enemies like he is cracked out of his mind, dropping everything in his path, taking stabs and punches like a kid in a candy shop.. and still walking out alive. Not fighting like a rogue picking and choosing targets wisely and avoiding damage.

Qhualor
07-30-2014, 02:43 PM
The developers probably really have to think this out also for multi-classing purposes. It would be insane to give a Barbarian like +100 DR while raged.. just to have a rouge take 1 level of barbarian and run around with +100 DR while raged? or a monk or fighter take a couple of levels of barbarian then become indestructible. Balancing is really the key here, but having a 28 pure barb myself i would love to see some sort of *while engraged* DR 100 EPIC or something along those lines.. but so that its not being abused by other multi-class specs. I always think of a barbarian as ENRAGING.. running through a crowd of enemies like he is cracked out of his mind, dropping everything in his path, taking stabs and punches like a kid in a candy shop.. and still walking out alive. Not fighting like a rogue picking and choosing targets wisely and avoiding damage.

That's why we have been suggesting many things to scale according to class level.

LuKaSu
07-31-2014, 09:28 AM
Concerning Occult Slayer

When I think of a barbarian's defense against magic, I don't think of him jumping out of the way (evasion) of a fireball. I think of being so tough tphat he takes it and just keeps going. I think evasion is out of the barb's style. However, a large MMR (reducing the amount of magical damage by a percentage) makes perfect sense.

So, instead of an evasion level 20 core, I'd put a MMR boost in the level 12, 18, and 20 cores. For level 12, give a heroic-level MRR boost (outside of the armor-based limit). Another heroic-level MRR boost in the level 18 core (brought to a total of heroic level * 2). Two more at cap. So, at level 20 core, barb has heroic-level * 4 MRR boost.

At 20, then, he'd have a 80 MRR boost, giving roughly a 40% magic resistance against evadable spells.

Silverleafeon
08-01-2014, 01:46 AM
It was great to read something positive on the forums. Thank you!

:) :) :)


I relly like these suggestions, however I think all capstones need either double stat, or secondary stat of +2 to con. This would be more in alignment with a shift I am seeing with other trees; getting that +4 stat bonus they deserve.

Hmm...Barbarians shout more str and con, so that should be considered in the grand scheme of things.


Honestly this should be the answer but keeping DR scaled to end game content doesn't seem viable currently and I don't think the developers understand where they are taking the game for end game purposes. DR worked from 1-20 from what I read in early DDO but scaling/power creep threw the game and DR out of alignment. Honestly may be too much hassle. Worth asking for, sure, but expecting to work, no.

Well, Sev might can do it, he sure is taking on the Paladins by storm...



Not sure I would call it "Trollblood" but I definitely like the direction.

Cool.



But doesn't this go back to Cocoon? Once a minute is too long to be effective. The only time I am standing around for long periods of time, regardless of class, is at the beginning of an adventure, forced Turbine waits, and splitting treasure (usually named loot I don't need/want). A regenerative healing aura, fueled by the blood of your enemies as you slaughter them I could also believe from a Role Playing perspective. Cocoon in its basic form: Temp HP + Quick Regen. So it can fit in very thematically for the Barbarian class. Would also address a need in the Frenzy Tree of healing after self-damage.

Unless we unlock Cocoon, our basic elements are:

temp hp, real hp healing, DR, PPR, Dodge, AC

Methods of getting it:

Over time, upon being hit, upon hitting foe, upon clicking rage allow ability with cooldown, upon drinking potions, etc..

Silverleafeon
08-01-2014, 01:52 AM
So basically the fast healing would work like and stack with the ed ability in fotw. Ive found this healing to be quite useful at times as it often tics in mid combat. If you are gaining some temp hp here and there that gets knocked off the top and have good mitigation you may only need a cure critical pot here and there.

Yes, the Fast Healing from the Primal Tree is nice, and apparently thematic, so maybe we can use it to help support the Barbarians.


the reason why Fast Healing doesn't work well in FOTW is because its 6d20 per minute. there would have to be a lot of damage mitigation for that to be effective, even if you stacked "trolls blood" on top of that. I can go along with an enhancement that heals you like trolls have fast healing, but it has to be actually fast. 6d20 every 15 seconds might be ok for in a pinch fights and you fumble the keys to drink a pot, but I would still feel more comfortable with a more solid self sufficient and thematic way for barbs to self heal better and for more hp right now and not 60 seconds later.

Very tricky indeed, too much fast healing and we become unkillable (insert picture of Wolverine here), too little and its too little..


The developers probably really have to think this out also for multi-classing purposes. It would be insane to give a Barbarian like +100 DR while raged.. just to have a rouge take 1 level of barbarian and run around with +100 DR while raged? or a monk or fighter take a couple of levels of barbarian then become indestructible. Balancing is really the key here, but having a 28 pure barb myself i would love to see some sort of *while engraged* DR 100 EPIC or something along those lines.. but so that its not being abused by other multi-class specs. I always think of a barbarian as ENRAGING.. running through a crowd of enemies like he is cracked out of his mind, dropping everything in his path, taking stabs and punches like a kid in a candy shop.. and still walking out alive. Not fighting like a rogue picking and choosing targets wisely and avoiding damage.
See Qhualor next post.

Currently the DR proposal is something like:

Barbarian DR now equals Barbarian Class DR + twice Barbarian enchancement bonuses to DR + three fourths of Barbarian level + several times epic levels.

A Barbarian 2 splash will get you very little except for the epic level bonus which is negated by the much stronger damage in epics.

That's why we have been suggesting many things to scale according to class level.

Aye, I would like to see a lot more scaling per class levels than we have in the game atm.


Concerning Occult Slayer

When I think of a barbarian's defense against magic, I don't think of him jumping out of the way (evasion) of a fireball. I think of being so tough tphat he takes it and just keeps going. I think evasion is out of the barb's style. However, a large MMR (reducing the amount of magical damage by a percentage) makes perfect sense.

So, instead of an evasion level 20 core, I'd put a MMR boost in the level 12, 18, and 20 cores. For level 12, give a heroic-level MRR boost (outside of the armor-based limit). Another heroic-level MRR boost in the level 18 core (brought to a total of heroic level * 2). Two more at cap. So, at level 20 core, barb has heroic-level * 4 MRR boost.

At 20, then, he'd have a 80 MRR boost, giving roughly a 40% magic resistance against evadable spells.

This is awesome and very wise.
I think we should adopt this approach.

spindeldorf
08-01-2014, 05:04 AM
Yes, the Fast Healing from the Primal Tree is nice, and apparently thematic, so maybe we can use it to help support the Barbarians.

Very tricky indeed, too much fast healing and we become unkillable (insert picture of Wolverine here), too little and its too little..




Fast Healing: What about having fast healing ticking every 15 seconds? Same amount of healing (1.5d20 or 3d10)

1 minute healing is of litte use during combat...

Riekan
08-01-2014, 08:43 AM
Fast Healing: What about having fast healing ticking every 15 seconds? Same amount of healing (1.5d20 or 3d10)

1 minute healing is of litte use during combat...

The problem with messing with Fast Healing is that it is currently a Tier 1 ability. People are already twisting in Cocoon on almost all their toons. If Fast Healing becomes that good, then it will also be a really low branch grab for most toons. If my "tank" with 230 AC, 192 PRR, 2000 HP, and a ton of healing amp can suddenly grab an improved Fast Healing then he'd be pretty unkillable. Making this ability more useful to Barbarians would either have to push the ability higher up in the tree, so it can't be twisted, or somehow tie it to Barbarian levels. Maybe leaving it as Tier 1 but changing the description to something like leaving the healing just like it is now but adding a multiplier for every 5 Barbarian levels or so, or making it tick faster with more Barbarian levels. That way it doesn't become too overpowered for everyone, but grants extra power to the Barbarian since it is in their ED tree.

Still doesn't help heroic levels though...

Silverleafeon
08-01-2014, 09:33 AM
Making this ability more useful to Barbarians would either have to push the ability higher up in the tree, so it can't be twisted, or somehow tie it to Barbarian levels.....That way it doesn't become too overpowered for everyone, but grants extra power to the Barbarian since it is in their ED tree....

I think this is one of the core issues here with helping barbarians.
What can we do that cannot be easily used by non barbarians.

It does not help that "rage" is a state that can be applied by a spell without the normal rage non spell-casting penalty.
{Among other things, perhaps there needs to be a new "barbaraian rage" classification, independent of the normal "rage" classification.}

autochthon
08-01-2014, 09:38 AM
How to give barbarians stuff without being abusable by non-barbarians? Put it in cores requiring levels 12 or higher. No splashing for the effect alone.

I second a new "rage" classification OR all "rage" disabling casting by default.

Edit: as a point of interest... why isn't Occult Slayer extended to fighter as a PrE? It fits well enough (and looks like a great combo with Kensei). Fighter would receive a couple "special" tree options (and multiclass could have multiselectors based on levels in each class). Here I go again with offtracking a focused thread tho >.>

Damion01
08-01-2014, 01:32 PM
How to give barbarians stuff without being abusable by non-barbarians? Put it in cores requiring levels 12 or higher. No splashing for the effect alone.

I second a new "rage" classification OR all "rage" disabling casting by default.

Edit: as a point of interest... why isn't Occult Slayer extended to fighter as a PrE? It fits well enough (and looks like a great combo with Kensei). Fighter would receive a couple "special" tree options (and multiclass could have multiselectors based on levels in each class). Here I go again with offtracking a focused thread tho >.>

Although on this thread i really don't care to discuss warriors, this does bring up a thought on Occult Slayer. Why not change the capstone to reflect "Increases the Barbarians MMR by his total Constitution score" Instead of Spell Resistance? So then it would play more into, the barbarian just shrugging off fireballs, rather than some how resisting them outright? the only way i can play that into my head is.. "sorc casts fireball... barbarian screams at the fireball and it blows out"?? as apposed to, "sorc casts fireball, fireball hits barbarian in the face, barbarian gets really mad......... then the sorc casts about 50 more fireballs and kills the barbarian i dunno.... ;) but seriously about Occult Slayer?

Psiandron
08-01-2014, 04:07 PM
It does not help that "rage" is a state that can be applied by a spell without the normal rage non spell-casting penalty.
{Among other things, perhaps there needs to be a new "barbaraian rage" classification, independent of the normal "rage" classification.}

Um, am I being thick or are you being forgetful?

There already is Barbarian Rage, which is typed differently than both the spell Rage and Madstone Rage (Madstone Reaction you could technically type yet another form too), hence the reason that they all stack and to some degree have different properties.

Qhualor
08-01-2014, 04:11 PM
Although on this thread i really don't care to discuss warriors, this does bring up a thought on Occult Slayer. Why not change the capstone to reflect "Increases the Barbarians MMR by his total Constitution score" Instead of Spell Resistance? So then it would play more into, the barbarian just shrugging off fireballs, rather than some how resisting them outright? the only way i can play that into my head is.. "sorc casts fireball... barbarian screams at the fireball and it blows out"?? as apposed to, "sorc casts fireball, fireball hits barbarian in the face, barbarian gets really mad......... then the sorc casts about 50 more fireballs and kills the barbarian i dunno.... ;) but seriously about Occult Slayer?

OS screams magical evasion. I think they should have the best MRR of the 3 prestiges.

Qhualor
08-01-2014, 04:20 PM
I think this is one of the core issues here with helping barbarians.
What can we do that cannot be easily used by non barbarians.

It does not help that "rage" is a state that can be applied by a spell without the normal rage non spell-casting penalty.
{Among other things, perhaps there needs to be a new "barbaraian rage" classification, independent of the normal "rage" classification.}

non barbarians cant rage and even if you splash, you are limited at its usefulness. for maximum you have to dip into tier 1 enhancements in each tree to get extra rages, extend rage (which also is based on con) and hardy rage. than, depending on how much splash you are, you will only benefit from a limited boost in extra damage, hp, will and fort saves. im actually not too worried about barb splashes unless the trees get a total revamp and the fruit on the tree hangs lower than it does already. the difference between a splash build and a pure dps barbarian just doesn't compare.

Qhualor
08-01-2014, 04:34 PM
The problem with messing with Fast Healing is that it is currently a Tier 1 ability. People are already twisting in Cocoon on almost all their toons. If Fast Healing becomes that good, then it will also be a really low branch grab for most toons. If my "tank" with 230 AC, 192 PRR, 2000 HP, and a ton of healing amp can suddenly grab an improved Fast Healing then he'd be pretty unkillable. Making this ability more useful to Barbarians would either have to push the ability higher up in the tree, so it can't be twisted, or somehow tie it to Barbarian levels. Maybe leaving it as Tier 1 but changing the description to something like leaving the healing just like it is now but adding a multiplier for every 5 Barbarian levels or so, or making it tick faster with more Barbarian levels. That way it doesn't become too overpowered for everyone, but grants extra power to the Barbarian since it is in their ED tree.

Still doesn't help heroic levels though...

im ok with Fast Healing being good enough for some to choose over Cocoon. Cocoon is already pretty much figured in almost every build because of its effectiveness and those that try to make barbs work in epic outside of pots try to use Cocoon. what I don't like is that some come to the forums and want a boost in barb dps because they have Cocoon slotted and cant use it while raged thus affecting their damage output. Cocoon is a spell and shouldn't be working while raged. making Fast Healing better and viable in epics to bother twisting or spending the points on it would allow non umd characters, namely barbs and fighters, to have a better choice instead of spending feats and enhancements and slotting gear and splashing classes to have an effective Cocoon. in other words, Cocoon should be something for the blue bars and Fast Healing should be something for the non blue bars. it personally irks the hell out of me seeing fighters and barbs with blue bars casting Cocoon and Renewal because they are trying to be survivable and its really the best option unless you can bear the pot chugging of SF pots which nobody really likes doing.

heroics is a different ball of wax. really, I can survive on my barb with just CSW pots, but im not opposed to a heroic version of Fast Healing. in D&D though, Fast Healing is an epic feat.

Skeen
08-01-2014, 09:48 PM
Regarding adding MRR to OS.


This is awesome and very wise.
I think we should adopt this approach.

I think this is a good idea too and works for the mage hunter theme, lets roll this for OS. Frenzy should of course get regular Evasion though.

Silverleafeon
08-01-2014, 10:28 PM
Um, am I being thick or are you being forgetful?

There already is Barbarian Rage, which is typed differently than both the spell Rage and Madstone Rage (Madstone Reaction you could technically type yet another form too), hence the reason that they all stack and to some degree have different properties.

Yes you are right, but I never ever see a distinction between the 4 different rages being used.

Look at the Fury of the Wild Epic Destiny, say


Acute Instincts : Passive Bonus: While raged, you gain +[0/1/2] wisdom, +[2/4/6] balance, heal, listen, spot, search, concentration and +[1/2/3] insight bonus to saves vs traps.

You can have primal rage, rage spell, madstone rage, or barbarian rage to qualify.

I guess we just have to starting writing "requires Barbarian class rage" into text when we want to limit to basically barbarian only.

Silverleafeon
08-01-2014, 10:35 PM
non barbarians cant rage and even if you splash, you are limited at its usefulness. for maximum you have to dip into tier 1 enhancements in each tree to get extra rages, extend rage (which also is based on con) and hardy rage. than, depending on how much splash you are, you will only benefit from a limited boost in extra damage, hp, will and fort saves. im actually not too worried about barb splashes unless the trees get a total revamp and the fruit on the tree hangs lower than it does already. the difference between a splash build and a pure dps barbarian just doesn't compare.Very true, I think a barbarian splash 2 is not going to get you much.


im ok with Fast Healing being good enough for some to choose over Cocoon. Cocoon is already pretty much figured in almost every build because of its effectiveness and those that try to make barbs work in epic outside of pots try to use Cocoon. what I don't like is that some come to the forums and want a boost in barb dps because they have Cocoon slotted and cant use it while raged thus affecting their damage output. Cocoon is a spell and shouldn't be working while raged. making Fast Healing better and viable in epics to bother twisting or spending the points on it would allow non umd characters, namely barbs and fighters, to have a better choice instead of spending feats and enhancements and slotting gear and splashing classes to have an effective Cocoon. in other words, Cocoon should be something for the blue bars and Fast Healing should be something for the non blue bars. it personally irks the hell out of me seeing fighters and barbs with blue bars casting Cocoon and Renewal because they are trying to be survivable and its really the best option unless you can bear the pot chugging of SF pots which nobody really likes doing.

heroics is a different ball of wax. really, I can survive on my barb with just CSW pots, but im not opposed to a heroic version of Fast Healing. in D&D though, Fast Healing is an epic feat.

Why not examine Cocoon and make a barbarian in barbarian rage form give the same amount a cocoon continually cast?
That gives us a standard to work towards.

I realize Cocoon is not available in heroic levels, but still it is a standard to work around.


Regarding adding MRR to OS.


I think this is a good idea too and works for the mage hunter theme, lets roll this for OS..

Nods happily.

Qhualor
08-01-2014, 11:26 PM
Why not examine Cocoon and make a barbarian in barbarian rage form give the same amount a cocoon continually cast?
That gives us a standard to work towards.

I realize Cocoon is not available in heroic levels, but still it is a standard to work around.

are you saying have Fast Healing heal you for the same amount as Cocoon can? that would be fine, but its needs to be reliable healing and it cant be every 60 seconds unless there is another form of reliable self healing too like less/non penalizing SF pots or something added thematically. the only thing a barbarian can use, besides the current Fast Healing is Healing Spring and they have to cast it before they rage and its 1x per rest. you also dont get the added benefits to boost Healing Spring like temporary hp or DR, not that it stacks with barb DR. it also heals for 1d100 hp every 20 seconds making it very unreliable, especially during fights.

barbarians and really any non blue bar/umd build needs something to twist for epics without feeling like they are forced into building a better self sufficient build that needs to have spells like Cocoon or Renewal to survive. as the game changed into what it is now where you take massive damage and need reliable self healing right now and not 20-60 seconds later, people gravitate to specific builds/splashes for better survivability. reliable self healing is a must in todays game and it would be a big step into bringing back melees lightly splashed or pure.

heroics i feel are pretty well balanced. there are some quests here and there that can be unforgiving, but for the most part what we have now for pots works fine. it might mean using a bit of tactics or pausing before a big fight, teamwork in groups is always desired or bringing a hire, but that's really a good thing. i wouldn't be against cure pots scaling a little better either and it wouldn't have to be a huge boost. a little would help a lot. one other idea would be like the pots you get when you do an Iconic reincarnation. you get 30 elixirs of greater healing that give you 50 hp now and than another 10-20 hp every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. no idea why there is a cool down before you can drink another pot, but should be removed. i love these pots and would rather use those than regular cure pots.

Psiandron
08-02-2014, 12:58 PM
Yes you are right, but I never ever see a distinction between the 4 different rages being used.

Look at the Fury of the Wild Epic Destiny, say



You can have primal rage, rage spell, madstone rage, or barbarian rage to qualify.

I guess we just have to starting writing "requires Barbarian class rage" into text when we want to limit to basically barbarian only.


Hmm, I wonder is that the case? I haven't noticed, myself.

Regardless, I'm sure that you are right and that care should be taken to note "Barbarian Rage" if the intent is for something to apply only to it.


I like the idea of MRR for OS, btw. Are you familiar enough with Sev's ideas on this to make workable, realistically acceptable suggestions on the amounts?

Also, I just remembered while typing this that I saw that someone made a suggestion about opening OS up to other classes. I thought that that was an interesting suggestion. Mage/occult slayer types have been used a lot in literature and, iirc, there are a number in the various "kits" and prestige classes from D&D. These are not and need not be limited even to melee classes.

Not really something for this project I suppose, but something to keep in mind. :)

Silverleafeon
08-03-2014, 05:25 AM
are you saying have Fast Healing heal you for the same amount as Cocoon can? that would be fine, but its needs to be reliable healing and it cant be every 60 seconds unless there is another form of reliable self healing too like less/non penalizing SF pots or something added thematically. the only thing a barbarian can use, besides the current Fast Healing is Healing Spring and they have to cast it before they rage and its 1x per rest. you also dont get the added benefits to boost Healing Spring like temporary hp or DR, not that it stacks with barb DR. it also heals for 1d100 hp every 20 seconds making it very unreliable, especially during fights.

Nods solemnly.

Here is our new standard to ponder:

Rejuvenation Cocoon : Active (12 SP activation) (12 sec cooldown) (Empower Heal, Quicken, Enlarge) (SR: no) Protect target ally with a shield of [90/120/150] temporary HP for 9 seconds. Heals 5d6 HP every 2 seconds while the shield persists.




barbarians and really any non blue bar/umd build needs something to twist for epics without feeling like they are forced into building a better self sufficient build that needs to have spells like Cocoon or Renewal to survive. as the game changed into what it is now where you take massive damage and need reliable self healing right now and not 20-60 seconds later, people gravitate to specific builds/splashes for better survivability. reliable self healing is a must in todays game and it would be a big step into bringing back melees lightly splashed or pure.


Yes.
Some thought definitely needs to go towards melees in Epic.
It is more difficult to heal melees in Epics.
Helping them will free divines up more.



heroics i feel are pretty well balanced. there are some quests here and there that can be unforgiving, but for the most part what we have now for pots works fine. it might mean using a bit of tactics or pausing before a big fight, teamwork in groups is always desired or bringing a hire, but that's really a good thing.

I agree.
If we alter the Barbarian DR that will help a lot.



i wouldn't be against cure pots scaling a little better either and it wouldn't have to be a huge boost. a little would help a lot.


And here the issue of potion amplification come up.
Perhaps something like:

While you are under the effects of a Barbarian Rage you Potion {healing/repair} Amplification is boosted by ((Barbarian Level * X) + (Epic Levels * Y)) this stacks with any normal healing amplifications you already have. {Assume we are working towards pure Barbarian at level 20 close to 50% and at level 30 close 100% then X could equal 3ish and Y could equal 6ish}



one other idea would be like the pots you get when you do an Iconic reincarnation. you get 30 elixirs of greater healing that give you 50 hp now and than another 10-20 hp every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. no idea why there is a cool down before you can drink another pot, but should be removed. i love these pots and would rather use those than regular cure pots.

I agree, I had a bunch of those awhile back and when I did a rogue Shadai Kai life (pardon my spelling), I very much enjoyed using them. They are terrific.


Hmm, I wonder is that the case? I haven't noticed, myself.

Regardless, I'm sure that you are right and that care should be taken to note "Barbarian Rage" if the intent is for something to apply only to it.

I had a master builder telling me to twist that in and drink rage potions on my divine to get +2 wisdom. Sounds a bit strange to me, but anyway. I think they wanted it to work with Primal Scream.



I like the idea of MRR for OS, btw.

More and more I feel this is the approach.


Are you familiar enough with Sev's ideas on this to make workable, realistically acceptable suggestions on the amounts?


I might just place as he calls it "fuzy numbers" and let him insert the proper ones.
At least until I get a better grasp on the new system.



Also, I just remembered while typing this that I saw that someone made a suggestion about opening OS up to other classes. I thought that that was an interesting suggestion. Mage/occult slayer types have been used a lot in literature and, iirc, there are a number in the various "kits" and prestige classes from D&D. These are not and need not be limited even to melee classes.

Not really something for this project I suppose, but something to keep in mind. :)

I really like that idea too.
This would be a great class for a fighter to have access to.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Silverleafeon
08-03-2014, 05:47 AM
New Frenzy round 11 is up.
I left the old underneath the new.
Totally changed the capstone, in a symmetrical way, tell me which you prefer, the old or the new one.

Other changes are listed as well.
Go the front page to look it over.


New Ravager round 2 is up.
I left the old underneath the new.
Changed the crit multiplier to match frenzy.
Removed vampiric in tier 5 and replaced with temporary hit per 5% melee damage done.
Changed ritual scaring to be potion amplification at tier 1 in easy reach of all the trees.



New OS round 5 is up.
I left the old underneath the new.
Changes:
Featuring MMR bonuses instead of evasion in core 12, capstone, and tier 5
Added fast healing from weapon bond on tier 18


If I missed any of your suggestions, just remind me, redid all 3 trees this morning.
How do they look now?
Too strong, too weak?

Silverleafeon
08-03-2014, 07:39 PM
I am very unhappy with the Ravanger critical tier 5 bonus,
because it is not improved by the improved critical feat.

Hence it looks like +2 crit range which can become +4 crit range,
but in fact, its only a +1 crit range because it does not double.

This a deception trap for any player not familiar with it,
which leads to thrill then disappointment.

Perhaps it was intended to be +2 which could be double,
and then nerf late in production. This seems likely to me.




I think I would like to add a wilderness lore temporary potion creation ability somewhere, where should it go.

Possible formula:
Positive Spell Power or Repair
(((Barbarian Levels*Z) + Xd6) + (Epic Levels * Yd6))
{Formula Goal pure barbarian gaining 75 hp at 20 and 150 at 25}
(((Barbarian Levels*3) + 3d6) + (Epic Levels * 3d6))
(Only usable with under a Barbarian Rage?)
Cooldown 6 seconds or less
Creation in stacks of 100
Cost to create ???

Silverleafeon
08-03-2014, 07:44 PM
I guess the possibility of letting Barbarians use SLAs should be brought up, but this leads us away from core 3rd edition D&D.
It would solve all the Barbarian problems but would leave them less unique as a class than before.

I prefer to encourage the Devs to keep as close to core D&D as possible.

Qhualor
08-03-2014, 08:00 PM
I guess the possibility of letting Barbarians use SLAs should be brought up, but this leads us away from core 3rd edition D&D.
It would solve all the Barbarian problems but would leave them less unique as a class than before.

I prefer to encourage the Devs to keep as close to core D&D as possible.

it should not be brought up or under consideration at all. allowing to cast spells while raged is not a proper way to address the lack of self sufficiency for barbs. a fix, change or addition can be made for better self sufficiency quite easily and there have been some good ideas to keep the theme intact for a barb. its really in the hands of the devs and what they are willing to do.

Silverleafeon
08-03-2014, 08:08 PM
it should not be brought up or under consideration at all. allowing to cast spells while raged is not a proper way to address the lack of self sufficiency for barbs. a fix, change or addition can be made for better self sufficiency quite easily and there have been some good ideas to keep the theme intact for a barb. its really in the hands of the devs and what they are willing to do.

Nods solemnly, in agreement.


I changed Barbarian Frenzy core 3 to read.

Core Three

Wilderness Lore
Using Positive Spell Power or Repair hp is healed.
This is not temporary health.
(((Barbarian Levels*Z) + Xd6) + (Epic Levels * Yd6))
{Formula Goal pure barbarian gaining 75 hp at 20 and 150 at 25}
(((Barbarian Levels*2) + 3d6) + (Epic Levels * 3d6))
(Only usable with under a Barbarian Class Rage)
Fuzzy Math until playtested

Potion Cooldown 6 seconds or less

Not bankable, not tradable, disappears upon entering public area.
Creation in stacks of 25
Cost to create (Character Level * 10) hit points.
Creation Cooldown 1 minute.

and the capstone to this

Capstone

You gain +2 str.

[I]Supreme Frenzy

Supreme Frenzy: Activation Cost: 20 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Expend 20 hit points to enter a Death Frenzy for one minute. You gain 6 strength. Your melee weapons gain 'Supreme Vicious'.(+6d6 damage to your attacks while dealing 1d3 damage to yourself per attack.)


AP cost 1



This eliminates all the extra extended unconsciousness range, in place of dps and potion creation.

Qhualor
08-03-2014, 08:19 PM
yeah, when it comes to formulas i have no clue. im a hands on kind of guy and would have to actually test in game to see how well they work.

Twomblytra
08-03-2014, 08:38 PM
Core Three
[color=orange]
Wilderness Lore
Positive Spell Power or Repair
(((Barbarian Levels*Z) + Xd6) + (Epic Levels * Yd6))
{Formula Goal pure barbarian gaining 75 hp at 20 and 150 at 25}
(((Barbarian Levels*2) + 3d6) + (Epic Levels * 3d6))
(Only usable with under a Barbarian Class Rage)
Fuzzy Math until playtested

Potion Cooldown 6 seconds or less
.
when you say pure barbarian gain 75/150 health are you referring to temporary HP? If not could Temp HP play into this enhancement? like 1/3 of the amount healed for goes towards a non-stacking temp HP?

Silverleafeon
08-03-2014, 08:59 PM
yeah, when it comes to formulas i have no clue. im a hands on kind of guy and would have to actually test in game to see how well they work.Aye.

Goal ~ start as Cure Serious Potion then scale up to the Better Silver Flame Potions without the penalties.


when you say pure barbarian gain 75/150 health are you referring to temporary HP? If not could Temp HP play into this enhancement? like 1/3 of the amount healed for goes towards a non-stacking temp HP?

I was referring to real healing, but that is a thought to consider that part would be temporary heath.

serthcore
08-03-2014, 09:04 PM
Nods solemnly, in agreement.


I changed Barbarian Frenzy core 3 to read.

Core Three

Wilderness Lore
Using Positive Spell Power or Repair hp is healed.
This is not temporary health.
(((Barbarian Levels*Z) + Xd6) + (Epic Levels * Yd6))
{Formula Goal pure barbarian gaining 75 hp at 20 and 150 at 25}
(((Barbarian Levels*2) + 3d6) + (Epic Levels * 3d6))
(Only usable with under a Barbarian Class Rage)
Fuzzy Math until playtested

Potion Cooldown 6 seconds or less

Not bankable, not tradable, disappears upon entering public area.
Creation in stacks of 25
Cost to create (Character Level * 10) hit points.
Creation Cooldown 1 minute.

and the capstone to this

Capstone

You gain +2 str.

[I]Supreme Frenzy

Supreme Frenzy: Activation Cost: 20 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Expend 20 hit points to enter a Death Frenzy for one minute. You gain 6 strength. Your melee weapons gain 'Supreme Vicious'.(+6d6 damage to your attacks while dealing 1d3 damage to yourself per attack.)


AP cost 1



This eliminates all the extra extended unconsciousness range, in place of dps and potion creation.

I like this new capstone (at least it made me debate if going pure or not!)
About pots: sounds like a good idea, but i would still redesign (or at least make sure that you dont put on the same cooldown ) silver flame pots for when you need huge burst self-healing.

Silverleafeon
08-03-2014, 09:59 PM
I like this new capstone (at least it made me debate if going pure or not!)

Thank you, I feel like it fits the class so much better.



About pots: sounds like a good idea, but i would still redesign (or at least make sure that you dont put on the same cooldown ) silver flame pots for when you need huge burst self-healing.

Indeed these potions should not share cooldowns with Silver Flame or Cure Serious or any new potions.

I'll add that into the text for it.

serthcore
08-04-2014, 12:23 PM
Another nice dps ability would be something similar to swasbuckler exploit weakness idea but with weapon multiplier instead of range.
But making sure that i wouldnt make certain abilities like adrenaline OP.
Maybe something like: when you miss a melee attack, you gain a +1 crit multiplier until your next critical hit, it stacks up to 2 or 3 times?

autochthon
08-04-2014, 07:59 PM
Another nice dps ability would be something similar to swasbuckler exploit weakness idea but with weapon multiplier instead of range.
But making sure that i wouldnt make certain abilities like adrenaline OP.
Maybe something like: when you miss a melee attack, you gain a +1 crit multiplier until your next critical hit, it stacks up to 2 or 3 times?The benefit derived would be pretty small.

More threat range? Less benefit.
More to-hit? Less benefit.

So you get more of the stuff you want and the bonus just gets worse. What you need is a benefit that gets better when you try to be stronger, not worse.

Qhualor
08-04-2014, 08:44 PM
Another nice dps ability would be something similar to swasbuckler exploit weakness idea but with weapon multiplier instead of range.
But making sure that i wouldnt make certain abilities like adrenaline OP.
Maybe something like: when you miss a melee attack, you gain a +1 crit multiplier until your next critical hit, it stacks up to 2 or 3 times?

that would be quite nice, but going off my own barbarians dps, they already crit a lot and my FB who is much better geared does 4 digit crits consistently. missing is only a problem when mobs jump around like a kobold.

the_one_dwarfforged
08-05-2014, 01:16 AM
on the subject of buffing dps, i like the idea that as the barb takes dmg he gets stronger. either by giving significant bonuses to str/crit profile/on hit effects/+dmg when below certain hp threshholds, or by having several moderately powerful buff guards, so every time you take damage one very short duration dps buff or another could be going off.

also following this theme is a point id like to reiterate: temp hp. the more you fight, the more you are rewarded with not being dead. still gives healers a job to do when youre around, isnt some lame potion (which i dont consider a solution to the problem, whether its a barb in quest item only or not), and it wouldnt be a form of self healing (there is already more than enough of this...) but it would go a long way to keeping barbarians alive without constant outside healing or breaking rage to heal or having to be in a specific destiny or having a specific twist.

also, fast healing could have a line like "every time you are hit in combat there is a % chance equal to your barbarian level (or maybe less, meleeing tends to get you hit frequently...) that this ability will reset its cd and heal you instantly." wouldnt need to change anything, just add that in and whammo that ability is twice as useful as it was before.

all of this would reward barbs for doing what theyre supposed to do, without having to have things like +1 crit range and multiplier...just because...and sla heal spell with no concentration check for no sp...just because...

serthcore
08-05-2014, 01:31 PM
The benefit derived would be pretty small.

More threat range? Less benefit.
More to-hit? Less benefit.

So you get more of the stuff you want and the bonus just gets worse. What you need is a benefit that gets better when you try to be stronger, not worse.

i tried to be very conservative here, that would mean at least getting +1 crit multiplier after you roll a 1 basically. but if they like the idea they can play with numbers and make it much better.

DrWily
08-05-2014, 02:20 PM
I changed Barbarian Frenzy core 3 to read.

Core Three

Wilderness Lore
Using Positive Spell Power or Repair hp is healed.
This is not temporary health.
(((Barbarian Levels*Z) + Xd6) + (Epic Levels * Yd6))
{Formula Goal pure barbarian gaining 75 hp at 20 and 150 at 25}
(((Barbarian Levels*2) + 3d6) + (Epic Levels * 3d6))
(Only usable with under a Barbarian Class Rage)
Fuzzy Math until playtested

Potion Cooldown 6 seconds or less

Not bankable, not tradable, disappears upon entering public area.
Creation in stacks of 25
Cost to create (Character Level * 10) hit points.
Creation Cooldown 1 minute.

My proposal is this:
Make the potion creation a feat that all Barbs get at a low level (say 2). These potions by themselves grant temp hp depending on the Barb levels for a few minutes or so and this effect is not lost when the temp hp is depleted.
Add enhancements in each of the enhancement trees that boost the potions while they last (example: OS gives bonuses to energy resistance and saves against magic, FB gives a vampirism-esque effect, Ravager grants additional damage, with all of them scaling on Barb level) similar to the boosts for raging. More or less likely the core enhancements.

Zerkul
08-05-2014, 04:12 PM
I've played barbarian for over 20 Epic Lives. I want to contribute with my playing experience and tomorrow I'll structure myself the 3 trees with my own view and feedback included so far here. I'll make a good work gimme one day.

Z.

Skeen
08-05-2014, 05:03 PM
Frenzied Berserker

Core abilities
Core 1 - Die Hard: You gain the Die Hard feat, and automatically stabilize when incapacitated. +1 to hit. While Raging, all melee attacks 1d6 Bane damage.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 0 Requires: Barbarian Level 1
Core 2 - Toughness: +10 HP. While Raging, +3 save vs enchantment,+2 to hit, 2d6 Bane damage
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 5 Requires: Die Hard, Barbarian Level 3
Core 3 - Frenzy: Cooldown: 30 seconds. Enter a frenzy, increasing your strength by +2 and adding Vicious to your melee weapons.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 10 Requires: Toughness, Barbarian Level 6
Core 4 - Toughness: +10 HP,+3 to hit, 6d6 Bane damage, +6 save vs fear
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 20 Requires: Frenzy, Barbarian Level 12
Core 5 – Passive: Crushing wave on Vorpal strike, While Raging, all melee attacks 8d6 Bane damage, Evasion.
Death Frenzy: Cooldown: 30 seconds. Enter a Death Frenzy for one minute. You gain 4 strength. You increase your crit multiplier by an additional 1 when raging. Your melee weapons gain 'Greater Vicious'.(+4d6 damage to your attacks while dealing 1d3 damage to yourself per attack.)
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 30 Requires: Toughness, Barbarian Level 18
Core 6 - Capstone: Passive - All melee weapons considered Aligned, +4 Strength, +20 HP. While Raging, all melee attacks 10d6 Bane dmg, 15% double strike.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 1 Progression: 40 Requires: Death Frenzy, Barbarian Level 20

Tier One - Requires Die Hard, Barbarian level 1
Extra Rage: +1/+3/+6 Rage use per rest
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 1 No requirements
Cracking Attack: Melee Attack: Deals +1/+2/+3[W] extra damage. On hit, blindness fo 3/6/12 seconds on a failed fortitude save vs. DC (10 + Barbarian level + strength modifier). Cooldown: 15 seconds
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 1 No requirements
Die Harder: Your range of unconsciousness extends +15/+20/+30 HP. When you drop below 1 health, you gain 20/40/50 temp hitpoints. This can only trigger once every five minutes.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 1 No requirements
Power Rage: +1/+3/+5 Strength and -1/-2/-3 AC while raging
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 3 Progression: 1 No requirements
Athletics: +2/+3/+4 Balance, Jump, Spot.
Rank 3: While Raging, you gain +15% bonus to movement speed.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 1 No requirements

Tier two - Requires Barbarian Level 2, 5 APs spent in tree
Angry Arms: +1%/+2%/+3% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +3%/+4%/+5% glancing blow damage.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 5 Requires: Two Handed Fighting
Rage Damage: +1/+2/+4 damage while Raging
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 5 Requires: Power Rage
Blood Tribute: Gain +50/+75/+150 Temporary Health for one minute. You have a stacking -1 penalty to constitution until you rest or die. (Cooldown: 3 seconds)
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 5 No requirements
Extra Action Boost: +1/+2/+3 additional Action Boost use per rest.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 5 No requirements
Sprint Boost: +35%/40%/50% Action Boost bonus to movement speed for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 25 seconds.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 5 No requirements

Tier three - Requires Barbarian Level 3, 10 APs spent in tree
Mad Munitions: +1%/+2%/+3% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +3%/+4%/+5% glancing blow damage
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 10 Requires: Greater Two Handed Fighting, Angry Arms
Blood Trail: When you Supreme Cleave, gain 10 temporary hitpoint per enemy damaged, up to 50 maximum. Lasts for 2/4/6 seconds.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 3 Progression: 10 Requires: Blood Tribute, Supreme Cleave
Supreme Cleave: Activate this ability to attack enemies around you. This attack deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage. Cooldown: 9/6/3 seconds
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 10 No requirements
Constitution\Strength: +1 Constitution or +1 Strength
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 10 No requirements

Tier four - Requires Barbarian Level 4, 20 APs spent in tree
Critical Heal: When you score a Critical hit with a two-handed weapon you have a 40% chance to gain +15hp/+30hp/+50hp health. Cannot exceed maximum character HP.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 20 Requires:
Crazy Strike: When you score a critical hit with Cracking Attack, for 12 seconds you gain +1/+2/+3[W]
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 20 Requires: Cracking Attack
Exhausting Blow: Melee Attack: Deals +2/+3/+4[W], 1d6/2d6/3d6 Strength, and 1d6/2d6/3d6 Dexterity damage. (Cooldown: 20 seconds)
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 20 No requirements
Wade In: When you Supreme Cleave, you gain +1 Primal bonus to damage, up to 3/6/10 maximum. Lasts for 4 seconds.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 20 Requires: Supreme Cleave
Constitution\Strength: +1 Constitution or +1 Strength
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 20 Requires: Constitution\Strength (Tier 3)

Tier five - Requires Barbarian Level 5, Character Level 12, 30 APs spent in tree
Focus Wide: When you score a vorpal hit, you increase your chance of triggering weapon effects with glancing blows by +10% and gain +10% glancing blow damage for 12 seconds.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 30 Requires: Mad Munitions
Focused Wrath: While raging, increases the critical multiplier of all weapons you use by +1/+2.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 2 Progression: 30 No requirements
Lash Out: Supreme Cleave has a 50%/75%/82% chance to cause bleeding to damaged enemies, inflicting up to 1/2/3 stacks. This can stack up to 5 times.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 30 Requires: Insert appropriate Barb level
Abating Spin: Your Supreme Cleave reduces enemy Fortification by 3%/5%/7% for six seconds. This stacks up to 2 times.
AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 30 Requires: Supreme Cleave , Insert appropriate Barb level
Tantrum: Tactical Melee Cleave: Activate this ability and attack enemies around you. This deals +7[W] damage and has a 50% to knock down each enemy briefly on a failed Fortitude save vs. 20 + Strength modifier. Abilities that trigger on Supreme Cleave also trigger on Tantrum. (Blood Trail, Wade In, Lash Out, Sundering Spin)
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 30 Requires: Insert appropriate Barb level

autochthon
08-05-2014, 07:44 PM
i tried to be very conservative here, that would mean at least getting +1 crit multiplier after you roll a 1 basically. but if they like the idea they can play with numbers and make it much better.

I'm just saying that having a mechanic that scales with something you are actively trying to avoid is bad.

Silverleafeon
08-05-2014, 08:43 PM
I've played barbarian for over 20 Epic Lives. I want to contribute with my playing experience and tomorrow I'll structure myself the 3 trees with my own view and feedback included so far here. I'll make a good work gimme one day.

Z.

This is very much appreciated, when you are done, I will move your trees up to a special spot on the first page.
Thank you!

the_one_dwarfforged
08-06-2014, 04:22 AM
terrible ideas

either that was a joke or you just dont want people taking you seriously. ill try to figure it out after i stop laughing.

Silverleafeon
08-06-2014, 07:34 AM
Frenzied Berserker
[B]

now featured on post #6

Qhualor
08-06-2014, 08:42 AM
now featured on post #6

I don't have time right now for an in depth analysis, but 1 thing stands out that should be changed is Crushing Wave. Sonic damage fits better for barbs.

Skeen
08-06-2014, 10:51 AM
I don't have time right now for an in depth analysis, but 1 thing stands out that should be changed is Crushing Wave. Sonic damage fits better for barbs.

We could do Cacophony instead. I liked the bludgeoning damage in Crushing wave though and "crushing" just sounded like something a Barbarian would be into.

Skeen
08-06-2014, 11:24 AM
either that was a joke or you just dont want people taking you seriously. ill try to figure it out after i stop laughing.

Right, I remember. "+1 for everything is fine just start doling out nerfs to everyone except Kensei".

This probably isn't going to be a good thread for you. It sounds like you won't be in a happy place if you keep coming back. This thread is mainly for people that play Barbarians and desire to bring the class inline with current enhancements. After looking at the rolled out Bard and proposed Paladin enhancements I thought this was a good place to start. I forgot to add in the use Str modifier as your Dex modifier piece that someone else mentioned though as well as a couple more DPS buffs.

You hang in there though, when they get around to Fighters I'll be sure to come visit your thread. :)

Nightmanis
08-06-2014, 12:45 PM
This is very much appreciated, when you are done, I will move your trees up to a special spot on the first page.
Thank you!

Something would have to be figured out about a DC on earth grab guard, maybe barb level + con mod+fury?

Also why was crit rage changed? I don't have time to look it up.

the_one_dwarfforged
08-06-2014, 02:42 PM
Right, I remember. "+1 for everything is fine just start doling out nerfs to everyone except Kensei".

This probably isn't going to be a good thread for you. It sounds like you won't be in a happy place if you keep coming back. This thread is mainly for people that play Barbarians and desire to bring the class inline with current enhancements. After looking at the rolled out Bard and proposed Paladin enhancements I thought this was a good place to start. I forgot to add in the use Str modifier as your Dex modifier piece that someone else mentioned though as well as a couple more DPS buffs.

You hang in there though, when they get around to Fighters I'll be sure to come visit your thread. :)

i never said anything about nerfing everyone except kenseis, and i never said everything was fine either. you see it that way because i am not a believer of "just buff everything to high hell to make it 'equal.'" however im not going to argue that point further as only you can change your perception of my words.

if you keep recommending 15% double strike to frenzy capstone, i wonder which of us belongs in the fighter forums more...

Silverleafeon
08-06-2014, 04:45 PM
I don't have time right now for an in depth analysis, but 1 thing stands out that should be changed is Crushing Wave. Sonic damage fits better for barbs.

Listens

We could do Cacophony instead. I liked the bludgeoning damage in Crushing wave though and "crushing" just sounded like something a Barbarian would be into.
Nods, anyone else have opinion. Should we have both and eliminate a different guard?

Something would have to be figured out about a DC on earth grab guard, maybe barb level + con mod+fury?
Was thinking copy and paste from greensteels on the guard they work pretty well for a long time.


Also why was crit rage changed? I don't have time to look it up.

I guess we could keep it, but I don't like the whole bait and switch of the Ravager Crit Rage.
It is written like it would be +2 crit range but when the improved critical feat (which any good barbarian will have by level cap) does not double it, then it becomes a simple +1 crit range.

This make simple people like myself get upset after forming a build leveling it up then finding it does not work as written.
Probably the Devs will have sort out the Barbarian Crit bonuses, but I will make it clear they current system is problematic in several ways, including the availability of a +1 multiplier outside of tier 5/capstone security in the Frenzy; the OS being weak and very difficult to obtain and keep; etc...

So, I put both Ravager and Frenzy equal and inside the tier 5, then improved the ability for OS to get to their crit bonus. I am pretty sure my MMR numbers on the OS tree are off but I can smooth them up later when I have a better idea of what they might be. I am sure Sev can clean those numbers up quickly. Its the theory of OS gets great MMR that is important.

Silverleafeon
08-06-2014, 04:50 PM
Big question and it has been brought up several times, so I will ask:

If and when Barbarians get a review, if you had a choice in the matter (which we might not) what do you think about:

There could be quite a few tweak and changes to Barbarians, how much and which ones do you feel should be done within the Barbarian class itself and not within the trees?

Also

What do you think is essential to not change in the Barbarian class to keep it as close to Core D&D as possible?



Thank you, everyone for all the good feedback, you are being more helpful than you realize....

Qhualor
08-06-2014, 05:02 PM
ok, looking at post #6

first, theres a lot of stuff in the cores. I feel its a little too busy and it would be an obvious no brainer to go pure just for that huge increase in dps, not that I already don't go pure anyways.

enchantment saves are quite nice, but that is the Achilles heal of barbarians. their will saves are historically low and even with a small boost from raging, its not enough. wisdom is an unwritten dump stat because in DDO, you need investment in it to gain its usefulness. I feel like + to enchantments is not going to matter enough to want it.

when you deal vicious damage to enemies, you are already dealing bane damage. so the suggestion is to have a higher bane damage than Frenzy and Death Frenzy at all times?

Crushing Wave just doesn't fit for barbs. Primal Scream deals sonic damage and when I think of barbs, I always think sonic. I just picture barbarians yelling and screaming a lot and that would fall under sonic.

I don't see the connection for FB and aligned weapons. +20 hp at core 6 is not worth it. 100 hp should be the starting point. double strike is not something barb related and more Tempest Ranger or Fighter. crit multipliers, crit chances and high damage is the cats meow for a FB barbarian.

+6 rages is way too much. I have 9 rages on my barbs and that's usually plenty. its those long raids where I have to be more careful.

when AC gets redone again, the AC reduction might come in handy, but as of right now its pretty much uselss. rather see fort reduction.

I don't think Power Rage needs a boost. I think its fine the way it is. my barbs can get their strength up into the 70s/80s consistently right now and I don't even have top gear and finished their past lives yet.

jump needs to be excluded from Athletics. a barbarian, except dwarfs with Throw your Weight Around, are going to invest in str that affects their jump skill. when cap was 20, I used to put a few points into, but its just not needed anymore when 30 is the jump cap.

I don't understand the point of Rage Damage. there are already lots of ways to increase your damage and Rage increases your strength score which affects your modifier. so you want to add +5 to the modifier?

I hate Blood Tribute. only because its temporary hp and maxxed out it will only absorb maybe a hit or 2 in heroics and -3 hits in epics. ive come to an understanding researching barbarians that temporary hp is a part of the class, but for me to be on board with it, it needs to scale better into epics.

Blood Trail.. no. 50 temporary hp when you Supreme Cleave and you will be lucky if you get 50 temp hp. 10 isn't enough to be worth it and 50 isn't either. again, I hate temp hp in epics and I didn't waste my points to get this on Live. its just not worth it.

Critical Heal I like the thinking behind that. it feels very Frenzy Berserkery. I just don't know how well that would translate into the game and would have to actually test it to see. one thing I would change for sure though is it should apply to any weapon.

I like dropping the PRR from the description in Crazy Strike.

I like the change in Wade In, although, I am terrible with DDO math formulas so I have no clue if that's OP or just right. again I would have to test it out first to see.

I don't think Focused Wrath needs to be changed, but if the devs didn't feel it was too OP I wouldn't complain.

I don't think the (w) in Tantrum needed to be increased either, but if the devs didn't feel it was too OP I wouldn't complain.

Qhualor
08-06-2014, 05:07 PM
Big question and it has been brought up several times, so I will ask:

If and when Barbarians get a review, if you had a choice in the matter (which we might not) what do you think about:

There could be quite a few tweak and changes to Barbarians, how much and which ones do you feel should be done within the Barbarian class itself and not within the trees?

Also

What do you think is essential to not change in the Barbarian class to keep it as close to Core D&D as possible?



Thank you, everyone for all the good feedback, you are being more helpful than you realize....

why do I get the feeling something is going to happen that I am going to truly rage about.

spindeldorf
08-06-2014, 05:13 PM
There could be quite a few tweak and changes to Barbarians, how much and which ones do you feel should be done within the Barbarian class itself and not within the trees?

imho little or no changes in the class itself, maybe just adding in the class PRR and/or MRR along DR/- and/or fortification (or exceptional fortification) along uncanny dodge



What do you think is essential to not change in the Barbarian class to keep it as close to Core D&D as possible?

no spellcasting/spell activation (clicky) while raging (but SLAs are ok)
no combat expertise while raging

Silverleafeon
08-06-2014, 05:14 PM
why do I get the feeling something is going to happen that I am going to truly rage about.

PLEASE DONT READ MORE INTO THIS than a simple I would like to cover all the bases as I wind up and round up this thread to present to the Devs.

I will stomp down any and all attempts to change the Barbarian away from Core Barbarian feel.

There has been some requests that DR forumula and wilderness lore potions be placed instead the class itself instead of the trees like I have been doing.

So far I have made ZERO changes to the Barbarian class itself.
Should we consider any at all?

Silverleafeon
08-06-2014, 05:18 PM
feedback...

Thank you.

spindeldorf
08-06-2014, 05:24 PM
There has been some requests that DR forumula and wilderness lore potions be placed instead the class itself instead of the trees like I have been doing.



no please. don't mess with the class, use the trees. (my opinion) - maybe have Barbarian DR/- stack with other sources of DR/-

Zerkul
08-06-2014, 05:27 PM
This is very much appreciated, when you are done, I will move your trees up to a special spot on the first page.
Thank you!
This is a complete review of all Barbarian trees. Hope you guys like it. Feedback as always is appreciated... We want to save the class without making it overpowered. Nothing of these proposed change will make it OP DPS/Survivability wise considering the new levels of power acquired by Swashbucklers and soon by Paladins.

I'll jump into this thread from time to time to check how feedback going but I leave Silverleafeon the hard work of gathering what he thinks will fit as proposed change to DEVs :P .




RAVAGER Tree

Core Enhancements
CORE[1] – Wound ‘Em!
Each time you critically hit an enemy it gains “Wounded”: 1d4 damage per stack over time each 2 seconds. Duration 6 seconds, stacks up to 5 times. Damage scales up with Melee Power.

CORE[2] – Pain Touch I
Wounded enemies get a -1 penality to damage, saves and skill checks per wounded stack. PASSIVE: you do +1d4 bleed damage with your attacks that scales 100% with Melee Power.

CORE[3] – Bleed them out!!
Wounded now stacks up to 10 times.

Core [4] – Pain Touch II
Your passive bleed damage rises up to +2d4 instead of +1d4.

CORE[5] – Smell for blood.
You gain +5% damage against helpless foes per stack of Wounded they have.

CORE[6] – This is how you will die!!!
(STANCE) Cruelty is the trademark of a ravager. Each time you vorpal you fear all nearby enemies like for fear spell. DC is 10 + ½ Barbarian Levels + Strength Modifier and duration is 6 seconds for the scare effect (on save) or 3 seconds for the fear effect (on failed save). Feared enemies are considered helpless. PASSIVE: +2 Strength.


Tier ONE Enhancements
Slaughter [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
Attack that uses SUNDER animation and does +(2/4/6)[W]. Cooldown 15 seconds.

Ritual Scarring [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
You gain +1/2/3 to Haggle and Intimidate and +2/+4/+6 to PRR.

I Like Pain [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
When you are hit: [20/40/60]% chance attacker loses 10 AC.

Barbarian Power Attack [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: Power Attack]
Your Power Attack feat does 1/2/3 additional point of bonus damage but also has an -1/-2/-3 to your attack bonus.

Extra Rage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
You can rage 1/2/3 additional times per rest.

Tier TWO Enhancements
Laughter [Cost: 2, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Slaughter]
For many ravagers, there’s no Laughter without Slaughter. When Slaughter damages an enemy you gain +(1/2/3)[W] on all your attacks for 7 seconds.

Fear Me! [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 5, Requirements: Ritual Scarring]
Enemies you successfully intimidate are Shaken for 12 seconds.

I Like Pain [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Do You Like Pain?]
When you are hit: 10% chance to gain 30/60/100 temporary HP.

Cruel Cut [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: None]
Melee Attack: Deals +(1/2/3)[W] and +1d6/2d6/3d6 constitution damage as long as you damage your target. Constitution damage scales up 50% with melee power. Cooldown 15 seconds.

Action Boost: Damage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: none]
Activate this ability to receive a +[10/20/30]% Action Boost bonus to weapon damage for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Tier THREE Enhancements
Aura of Fear [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 10, Requirements: Fear Me!]
Nearby enemies receive a -2 penality to all ability scores and a -4 penality to will saves against fear effects.

I hit Back! [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: Cruel Cut]
When you are hit: 20% chance to deal 2d8/4d8/6d8 Chaotic damage to the attacker. Scales up 50% with Melee Power.

Festering Wound [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: Cruel Cut]
Cruel Cut additionally inflicts 1/2/3 5 5-seconds stacks of 1d6 Poison damage every 2 seconds (scales 100% with Melee Power), the target also loses -50% healing amplification for 5/10/15 seconds and must make a fortitude save against 10 + ½ Barbarian Level + Strength modifier or loose [5/10/15]% fortification.

Strength [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 10, Requirements: none]
+1 Strength.

Tier FOUR Enhancements
Feel the Pain [Cost 1, Ranks 3, Progression 20, Requirements: Laughter]
Enemies that you hit with Slaughter are overwhelmed by your brutality: they must succeed a fortitude save against [10/12/14]+ ½ Barbarian Level + Strength modifier or become helpless by the pain for 2/6/10 seconds. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this effect.

Fury [Cost 2, Ranks 3, Progression 20, Requirements: None
Each time you score a vorpal hit you gain +[2/4/6] rage bonus to attack modifier for 12 seconds.

Dismember [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 20, Requirements: Cruel Cut]
Cruel Cut rises up to +(3/4/5)[W] and additionally slows enemies movement and attack speeds by 50% if they do not succeed a fortitude save against [10/12/14]+ ½ Barbarian Level + Strength modifier. Duration is 3/7/12 seconds.

Strength [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 20, Requirements: none]
+1 Strength.

Tier FIVE Enhancements
Rising Fury [Cost: 2, Ranks: 3, Progression: 30, Requirements: Fury]
Each time you score a vorpal hit you additionally gain +[1/2/3] bonus to damage and you attack [2/4/6]% faster for 12 seconds.

Dirty Fighting [Cost: 2, Rank: 3, Progression: 30, Requirements: I Hit Back!]
Enemies that hit you have a [5/10/15]% chance to become blinded for 6 seconds. PASSIVE: You gain +[1/2/3]% chance to dodge.

Critical Rage [Cost 2, Ranks 2, Progression 30, Requirements: Dismember]
You gain a +[1/2] Rage bonus to threat range of all weapons you wield. Additionally you gain +[4/8] damage on criticals before multiplier.




OCCULT SLAYER Tree

Core Enhancements
CORE[1] – Weapon Bond
You build a psychic bond with your mainhand weapon. You strengthen your Weapon Bond by damaging enemies with attacks, up to once each second. Your Weapon Bond is broken when you change your mainhand weapon or die. ACTIVATE: You reduce your bond strength by 1 to gain a +5 insight bonus to attack for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 1 minute)

CORE[2] – Resistance
+1 to all saving throws. Improves your barbarian damage reduction by +1. ACTIVATE: You reduce your bond strength by 5 to gain a +5 insight bonus to saving throws for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 1 minute)

CORE[3] – Blank Thoughts.
You gain the Slippery Mind feat and improve your barbarian damage reduction by +1.

CORE[4] – Thick Skin
Your resistance to magical damage increases as your skin thickens: you add your Constitution modifier as a bonus to your Magical Resistance Rating. Your barbarian damage reduction improves by +1.

CORE[5] – Repeal Magical Effects
Your physical preparation against magic reaches higher peaks. You can now add your Constitution modifier as a bonus to your Spell Resistance in order to avoid those magical effects that require saves. Your barbarian damage reduction improves by +1.

CORE[6] – Dead-Magic Zone
(STANCE) Your biology is lethal for casters. At this point you start to emanate an aura that renders magical casting more difficult: all the foes within the aura suffers 10% + ¼ of your Constitution modifier spell failure chance (does not affect bosses) for all the spells they cast. PASSIVE: +2 Constitution.

Tier ONE Enhancements
Hardy Rage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
Your barbarian rage gives you additional +[1/2/3] bonus to constitution.

Ear Smash [Cost: 2, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
Melee Attack: Deals +(1/2/3)[W] damage. Damaged enemies can’t cast spells for 2/4/6 seconds. Cooldown: 12 seconds.

Parrying Bond [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
While Weapon Bond 10+ +[2/4/6] Competence bonus to AC.

Uncanny Dodger [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
You gain +[1/2/3]% Dodge.

Wild Plants Lore [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
You knowledge of the wild helps you empower the effect of all the potions you drink. You benefit more from healing potions you drink: +[30%/60%/100%].

Tier TWO Enhancements
Willpower Rage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: none]
Your barbarian rage gives you additional +[1/2/3] bonus to will saving throws.

Knockout [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Ear Smash]
Ear Smash puts enemies to sleep for 6/12/18 seconds. On Vorpal, enemies are stunned instead.

Guarding Bond [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Parrying Bond]
You gain +4 PRR at WB 30+. RANK[2]: another +4 at WB 60+. RANK[3]: another +4 at WB 90+.

Lessons of Travel [Cost 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: none]
You gain a bonus of +[4/8/12] to your MRR and +[2/4/6] to all your energy resistances.

Wild Plants Remedies [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: none]
You deepens your lore of wild plants. Any potions you drink has an additional effect: RANK[1] remove disease, RANK[2] remove poison, RANK[3] lesser restoration.

Tier THREE Enhancements
Bond of Retribution [Cost: 2, Ranks: 2, Progression: 10, Requirements: none]
At Weapon Bond 120+ and below 50% health, you gain +1 critical damage multiplier on attack rolls of 19-20.

Lessons of Nature [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: none]
You gain +[2/4/6] bonus to save VS disease and poison. At RANK[3] you don’t fail these saves with a roll of natural 1.

Arcane Encumbrance [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: none]
When enemies damage you with spells, there’s a [10/20/30]% chance they’ll be knocked down. (Does not affect bosses)

Kinetic Bond [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: Lessons of Travel]
At Weapon Bond strength 45+, you deal 2d[8/10/12] damage with your attacks. This damage scales up 100% with your Melee Power Score and can trigger up to once every second.

Constitution [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 10, Requirements: none]
You deepens your lore of wild plants. Any potions you drink has an additional effect: RANK[1] remove disease, RANK[2] remove poison, RANK[3] lesser restoration.

Tier FOUR Enhancements
Vicious Strike [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 20, Requirements: none]
Melee Attack: Deals +(1/2/3)[W] damage and inflicts Feedback on the enemy for 6/12/18 seconds. (Cooldown: 12 seconds). Feedback: on enemy spellcast suffer 6-60 force damage that scales with target spell power.

Metalline Bond [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 20, Requirements: Kinetic Bond]
At Weapon Bond 100+ your bonded weapon becomes Metalline thus bypassing all metals damage reduction.

Perfect Strike [Cost: 2, Ranks 1, Progression: 20, Requirements: none]
On vorpal strike gains +10 Weapon Bond strength.

Constitution [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 20, Requirements: none]
You deepens your lore of wild plants. Any potions you drink has an additional effect: RANK[1] remove disease, RANK[2] remove poison, RANK[3] lesser restoration.

Tier FIVE Enhancements
Bond of Destruction [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 30, Requirements: Bond of Retribution]
While at Weapon Bond 180+, your Bond of Retribution doesn’t have a health requirement.

Vampiric Bond [Cost: 2, Ranks: 3, Progression: 30, Requirements: none]
At Weapon Bond 100+ your weapons deal an additional 1d4 + ½ Barbarian Level damage from negative energy and heals you for the same amount per hit you successfully land on living targets (can trigger at most once per 3/2/1 seconds). At Weapon Bond 150+ your weapons bestow 1/2/3 negative level each vorpal strike (can trigger at most once per 14/10/6 seconds).

Alignment Bond [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 30, Requirements: Metalline Bond]
At Weapon Bond 120+ your bonded weapon becomes Aligned thus bypassing all damage reduction that requires aligned weapons.




FRENZIED BERSERKER Tree

Core Enhancements
CORE[1] – Die Hard
You gain the Die Hard feat, and automatically stabilize when incapacitated. For each core you have your unconsciousness range expands by 10 HP including this one.

CORE[2] – Toughness
+10 HP. For each subsequent core you have you gain +10 HP.

CORE[3] – Frenzy
A Frenzied Berserker can enter a frenzy during combat. While frenzied he gains +2 strength bonus and all the weapons he wield gain Vicious. Activating this ability consumes 10 hit points. Duration: 1 minute.

CORE[4] – Wrathful Spirit
At expense of 50 hit points you regain one rage to your barbarian class rage counter. Cooldown 30 seconds.

CORE[5] – Greater Frenzy
The strength bonus from you Frenzy core enhancement rises up to +6 strength bonus and all the weapons you wield gains both Vicious and Greater Vicious. You also gain +1 Critical Multiplier on rolls of 19-20. Activating Frenzy now costs 15 hit points.

CORE[6] – Deathless Frenzy
Your unconsciousness range expands up to your max hit points (this substitutes the CORE[1] unconsciousness range expansion). The strength bonus from your Frenzy core enhancement rises up to +10. While Frenzied you regain consciousness if below 0 hit points and keep fighting. You die normally at –(your max HP). If hit by disintegration effect while negative hit points you die instantly. Activating Frenzy now costs 20 hit points.

Tier ONE Enhancements
Extended Rage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
Your barbarian rage now lasts [25/50/75]% longer.

Wide Cleaving [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: Cleave or Great Cleave]
All Cleave attacks have wider range and do additional +[2/4/6] damage.

Painless Rage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
While raging your PRR rises up by 4/8/12 points and your class damage reduction by 2/4/6 points.

Sprint Boost [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
+35%/40%/50% Action Boost Bonus to movement speed for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds.

Power Rage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
You gain +1/+2/+3 Strength while raging and -1/-2/-3 AC.

Tier TWO Enhancements
Angry Arms [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Two Handed Fighting]
+[1/2/3]% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +[3/4/5]% glancing blow damage.

Cleave Hate [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Wide Cleaving]
All your Cleave attacks (all means also ones from destiny and ones from this prestige class) generate [50/100/150]% extra hate.

Reckless Rager [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Painless Rage, Cleave Hate, Charge]
While raged and wearing anything equal or less than medium armor, for each foe you damage with a Cleave attack you gain +3 PRR and lose -1 AC. This stacks up to 3/6/10 times.

Tireless Charge [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Sprint Boost]
While raged and wearing anything equal or less than medium armor, you move [5/10/15]% faster and you ignore any speed movement penalty you may have.

Extra Action Boost [Cost 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: none]
You gain +1/+2/+3 additional Action Boost use per rest.

Tier THREE Enhancements
Mad Munitions [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: Greater Two Handed Fighting, Angry Arms]
+[1/2/3]% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +[3/4/5]% glancing blow damage.

Supreme Cleave [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: Cleave Hate]
Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 10 hit points to activate this ability to attack enemies around you. This attack deals +1/+2/+3[W].

Blood Trail [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: Supreme Cleave, Reckless Rager]
Supreme Cleave gives you 2/3/4 hit points per enemy damage up to 20/30/40. Lasts for 2/4/6 seconds.

Demolishing Rage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: None]
All your attacks with two handed weapons while raged do additional +1/+2/+3.

Strength/Constitution [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 10, Requirements: none]
+1 to Strength/Constitution.

Tier FOUR Enhancements
Wade In [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 20, Requirements: Supreme Cleave]
When you Supreme Cleave you gain +1 Primal bonus to Attack per enemy damaged up to 3/6/10 times. Lasts for 4 seconds.

Greater Uncanny Dodge [Cost: 2, Ranks 1, Progression 20, Requirements: Improved Uncanny Dodge]
Lowers Improved Uncanny Dodge cooldown to 60 seconds.

Mighty Sunder [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 20, Requirements: Demolishing Rage]
If you don’t have Improved Sunder feat you gain it, if you have it you gain +4 on its DC.

Strength/Constitution [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 20, Requirements: none]
+1 to Strength/Constitution.

Tier FIVE Enhancements
Focus Wide [Cost: 2, Ranks 1, Progression: 30, Requirements: Mad Munitions]
When you score a vorpal hit, you increase you change of triggering weapon effects with glancing blows by +10% and gain +10% glancing blow damage for 12 seconds.

Focused Wrath [Cost: 2, Ranks: 3, Progression: 30, Requirements: none]
While raging, increases the critical multiplier of all weapons you use by +[1/2/3] when you roll a natural 19 or 20 that is confirmed crit hit.

Devastating Rage [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 30, Requirements: Mighty Sunder]
While raged all your vorpal strikes inflict Improved Sunder and do additional 10d6 bane damage (like Vicious damage type).

Tantrum [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 30, Requirements: none]
Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 25 hit points to activate this ability and attack enemies around you. This deals +5[W] damage and has 50% chance to knock down each damaged enemy briefly on failed fortitude save vs. 20 + Strength modifier. Abilities that triggers on Supreme Cleave also triggers on Tantrum.

the_one_dwarfforged
08-06-2014, 05:30 PM
Big question and it has been brought up several times, so I will ask:

If and when Barbarians get a review, if you had a choice in the matter (which we might not) what do you think about:

There could be quite a few tweak and changes to Barbarians, how much and which ones do you feel should be done within the Barbarian class itself and not within the trees?

Also

What do you think is essential to not change in the Barbarian class to keep it as close to Core D&D as possible?



Thank you, everyone for all the good feedback, you are being more helpful than you realize....

1)
- any changes to the scaling/amount of barb dr and/or barb prr (something id add in a minimal to moderate amount.) should just be an innate part of the class based on number of levels. i think an exponential curve would be helpful for this.
- the trees i would mostly keep, but remove and/or improve the garbage thats in them (like much of what has been going on in this discussion), and if there is a new barbarian ability or effect (such as something like getting stronger as you get lower health for example) which would be iconic-ly barbarian then it should be added to the class at an appropriate level.

2)
- personally, i think it is not so important to keep the class as close as possible to pnp. this is because we all have to admit the game is moving in its own direction, and taking inspiration from dnd is good, but this game has a life of its own. that said, i do still think its important for the class to retain its identity, because thats really the important thing for everyone who plays a class outside of wanting the most powerful character possible in the current state of the game (so for example, before monkchers were a big thing, im sure there were still zen archers who were playing that type of build because the flavor was more important to them, than now where we have millions of them just because they are very powerful and convenient).
- sla or full on spell casting while raged is a line that absolutely must not, can not, should not be crossed whatsoever at all costs. if you ask me, it would take everything away from being a barbarian. there are other and better ways to make barbarians self sustaining without making them self healing (***temp hp***).

Qhualor
08-06-2014, 05:37 PM
PLEASE DONT READ MORE INTO THIS than a simple I would like to cover all the bases as I wind up and round up this thread to present to the Devs.

I will stomp down any and all attempts to change the Barbarian away from Core Barbarian feel.

There has been some requests that DR forumula and wilderness lore potions be placed instead the class itself instead of the trees like I have been doing.

So far I have made ZERO changes to the Barbarian class itself.
Should we consider any at all?

the barbarian class itself is fine I think. the only thing I would really like to see changed is the DR. it needs to scale better into epics and/or add an enhancement or attach it in the capstone that grants +20 DR. I would also be fine with it scaling with rage. theres a few options there and I probably would be on board with anything like that. in PnP, DR is a barbs defense that works well. in DDO, its as if you don't even have DR because you don't see any mitigation difference.

I thought I was on to something yesterday when I came across Primal Magic Healing, but /sigh, cant cast while raged. so many ways to thematically go about this with barbs.

enhancements that boost pot healing

rework SF pots so that they aren't so penalizing to barbs and fighters, but unattractive to blue bars

per cent chance to heal via crits

make your own pots that work only in quests or drinking your enemies blood to refuel you

improve Fast Healing

improve Fury Made Placid. its too penalizing

im open to more suggestions, but that's pretty much all that I can think of that makes sense for barbs. improvements most definitely have to be done.

the_one_dwarfforged
08-06-2014, 05:41 PM
This is a complete review of all Barbarian trees. Hope you guys like it. Feedback as always appreciated... we want to save the class without making it overpowered. A bump in its power level it's due but let's not exaggerate.

RAVAGER Tree

CORE[6] – Dead-Magic Zone
(STANCE) Your biology is lethal for casters. At this point you start to emanate an aura that renders magical casting more difficult: all the foes within the aura suffers 10% + ¼ of your Constitution modifier spell failure chance (does not affect bosses) for all the spells they cast. PASSIVE: +2 Constitution.

FRENZIED BERSERKER Tree


i completely agree with your opening statement, and i think your suggestions reflect that you really meant what you said. i also thought that the trees had many good ideas in them without going to far from what we currently have, which would making changes easier.

concerning the ravager cap...not sure how it would play out in practice but i could see a lot of helpless aoe damage happening there, its something melees need but im not sure if it would be too strong or not. something that would need play testing by real players and not devs.

lastly, i was also thinking of something like dead magic zone for occult slayers and at first i thought perhaps just totally blanketing all spell casting in your aura, and then eventually realized asf would be the way to go so that there is a stat on stat battle going on for this (something for the devs to use against such a player ability,a nd something for players with this ability to consider). cue mandatory great minds statement. +2 con might be a bit much on top of a mobile anti magic zone, especially for the whole deal to be a lvl 6 ability. also i think magister has some stuff like this in it but im not sure as i levelled that tree once and never looked back...

great suggestions.

the_one_dwarfforged
08-06-2014, 05:45 PM
I guess we could keep it, but I don't like the whole bait and switch of the Ravager Crit Rage.
It is written like it would be +2 crit range but when the improved critical feat (which any good barbarian will have by level cap) does not double it, then it becomes a simple +1 crit range.

im not sure i understand, how does a +2 crit range effect only become a +1 crit range effect when you have improved critical? are you saying that it might as well be a +1 and have improved crit double it, like most other crit range effects? that would be fine with me. if it were a +2 range that double with improved crit, that would be an extra 25% crit chance right by itself. imagine all the dc esos barbs with 9-20 x3. its already easily possible to get 50% crit chance, we definitely dont need more of this (which is why i oppose such things elsewhere as well).

Silverleafeon
08-06-2014, 05:46 PM
This is a complete review of all Barbarian trees. Hope you guys like it. Feedback as always is appreciated....

Moving all this to post #6 and thank you for the hard work.
The more the Devs have to work with, the more we can hope for the future.

Silverleafeon
08-06-2014, 05:50 PM
im not sure i understand, how does a +2 crit range effect only become a +1 crit range effect when you have improved critical? are you saying that it might as well be a +1 and have improved crit double it, like most other crit range effects?

Yes.
It is very deceiving as written, and unlike all the other crit bonuses which double up.
I don't like confusion and would like to iron it out if and when we get a barbarian pass.


that would be fine with me. if it were a +2 range that double with improved crit, that would be an extra 25% crit chance right by itself. imagine all the dc esos barbs with 9-20 x3. its already easily possible to get 50% crit chance, we definitely dont need more of this (which is why i oppose such things elsewhere as well).

I can see that.
So I changed it to match the potential +3 crit multiplier on 19-20 like Frenzy.
I forsee barbarians as big crits not necessary more crits which might be better in the fighter trees?

Silverleafeon
08-06-2014, 06:00 PM
Ravager round 3 is up.

Changes for round 3
Earthen Guard replaced by Caphony Guard
Put crit bonus option in tier 5 for Devs, rewriting original without the bait and switch wording in it.


This put control on power creep ~ earthen guard is a crowd control guard so its being replaced by a damage guard that fits Barbarians well.

Left both crit options in Ravager.
Prefer the +3 on 19~20, but left a +1 crit range that can be doubled by improved critical feat.

DrWily
08-06-2014, 06:31 PM
This is a complete review of all Barbarian trees. Hope you guys like it. Feedback as always is appreciated...

I like these. A lot of these abilities are better that what I was currently working on. Nice job

FestusHood
08-06-2014, 06:49 PM
Strikes me that most of the people whose main concern with the barbarian class is lack of self healing are people who don't actually play barbarians. I think those who actually play barbarians have made their peace with it.

That said, nerfing death frenzy seems like the antithesis of what the typical barb player would want. If you can't heal, you should at least be able to do stellar dps. Currently it is possible to have both critical rage and death frenzy at the same time. This comes at a high investment cost however. 18 barbarian levels, and virtually all of your ap spent in those two trees. In practice, this will work out to exactly as much power as the new proposed holy sword spell will for paladins, with a much greater cost to achieve.

I'm against the idea of making the crit multiplier from death frenzy either only on 19-20, or a tier 5 ability. This is a dps nerf for those willing to pair this with crtiical rage. I didn't realize there was a glaring problem with doing this that needed to be addressed.

If barbarians end up weaker than bards or bard splits, or even paladins dps wise, it won't matter what else you do for them, nobody will want to play them.

Scrabbler
08-06-2014, 07:42 PM
In practice, this will work out to exactly as much power as the new proposed holy sword spell will for paladins, with a much greater cost to achieve.
Looking at a Keen Scimitar's Critical Power:
normal: 6
Critical Rage: 8
Death Frenzy: 8
Critical Rage + Death Frenzy: 10
Holy Sword: 16

Maybe you were confused by the incorrect description text currently shown for Death Frenzy. The text implies it grants +1 critical multiplier on all rolls, when it actually is restricted to 19-20.

Qhualor
08-06-2014, 07:50 PM
This is a complete review of all Barbarian trees. Hope you guys like it. Feedback as always is appreciated... We want to save the class without making it overpowered. Nothing of these proposed change will make it OP DPS/Survivability wise considering the new levels of power acquired by Swashbucklers and soon by Paladins.

I'll jump into this thread from time to time to check how feedback going but I leave Silverleafeon the hard work of gathering what he thinks will fit as proposed change to DEVs :P .


FRENZIED BERSERKER Tree

Core Enhancements
CORE[1] – Die Hard
You gain the Die Hard feat, and automatically stabilize when incapacitated. For each core you have your unconsciousness range expands by 10 HP including this one.

CORE[2] – Toughness
+10 HP. For each subsequent core you have you gain +10 HP.

CORE[3] – Frenzy
A Frenzied Berserker can enter a frenzy during combat. While frenzied he gains +2 strength bonus and all the weapons he wield gain Vicious. Activating this ability consumes 10 hit points. Duration: 1 minute.

CORE[4] – Wrathful Spirit
At expense of 50 hit points you regain one rage to your barbarian class rage counter. Cooldown 30 seconds.

CORE[5] – Greater Frenzy
The strength bonus from you Frenzy core enhancement rises up to +6 strength bonus and all the weapons you wield gains both Vicious and Greater Vicious. You also gain +1 Critical Multiplier on rolls of 19-20. Activating Frenzy now costs 15 hit points.

CORE[6] – Deathless Frenzy
Your unconsciousness range expands up to your max hit points (this substitutes the CORE[1] unconsciousness range expansion). The strength bonus from your Frenzy core enhancement rises up to +10. While Frenzied you regain consciousness if below 0 hit points and keep fighting. You die normally at –(your max HP). If hit by disintegration effect while negative hit points you die instantly. Activating Frenzy now costs 20 hit points.

Tier ONE Enhancements
Extended Rage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
Your barbarian rage now lasts [25/50/75]% longer.

Wide Cleaving [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: Cleave or Great Cleave]
All Cleave attacks have wider range and do additional +[2/4/6] damage.

Painless Rage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
While raging your PRR rises up by 4/8/12 points and your class damage reduction by 2/4/6 points.

Sprint Boost [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
+35%/40%/50% Action Boost Bonus to movement speed for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds.

Power Rage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 1, Requirements: none]
You gain +1/+2/+3 Strength while raging and -1/-2/-3 AC.

Tier TWO Enhancements
Angry Arms [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Two Handed Fighting]
+[1/2/3]% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +[3/4/5]% glancing blow damage.

Cleave Hate [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Wide Cleaving]
All your Cleave attacks (all means also ones from destiny and ones from this prestige class) generate [50/100/150]% extra hate.

Reckless Rager [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Painless Rage, Cleave Hate, Charge]
While raged and wearing anything equal or less than medium armor, for each foe you damage with a Cleave attack you gain +3 PRR and lose -1 AC. This stacks up to 3/6/10 times.

Tireless Charge [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: Sprint Boost]
While raged and wearing anything equal or less than medium armor, you move [5/10/15]% faster and you ignore any speed movement penalty you may have.

Extra Action Boost [Cost 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 5, Requirements: none]
You gain +1/+2/+3 additional Action Boost use per rest.

Tier THREE Enhancements
Mad Munitions [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: Greater Two Handed Fighting, Angry Arms]
+[1/2/3]% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +[3/4/5]% glancing blow damage.

Supreme Cleave [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: Cleave Hate]
Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 10 hit points to activate this ability to attack enemies around you. This attack deals +1/+2/+3[W].

Blood Trail [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: Supreme Cleave, Reckless Rager]
Supreme Cleave gives you 2/3/4 hit points per enemy damage up to 20/30/40. Lasts for 2/4/6 seconds.

Demolishing Rage [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 10, Requirements: None]
All your attacks with two handed weapons while raged do additional +1/+2/+3.

Strength/Constitution [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 10, Requirements: none]
+1 to Strength/Constitution.

Tier FOUR Enhancements
Wade In [Cost: 1, Ranks: 3, Progression: 20, Requirements: Supreme Cleave]
When you Supreme Cleave you gain +1 Primal bonus to Attack per enemy damaged up to 3/6/10 times. Lasts for 4 seconds.

Greater Uncanny Dodge [Cost: 2, Ranks 1, Progression 20, Requirements: Improved Uncanny Dodge]
Lowers Improved Uncanny Dodge cooldown to 60 seconds.

Mighty Sunder [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 20, Requirements: Demolishing Rage]
If you don’t have Improved Sunder feat you gain it, if you have it you gain +4 on its DC.

Strength/Constitution [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 20, Requirements: none]
+1 to Strength/Constitution.

Tier FIVE Enhancements
Focus Wide [Cost: 2, Ranks 1, Progression: 30, Requirements: Mad Munitions]
When you score a vorpal hit, you increase you change of triggering weapon effects with glancing blows by +10% and gain +10% glancing blow damage for 12 seconds.

Focused Wrath [Cost: 2, Ranks: 3, Progression: 30, Requirements: none]
While raging, increases the critical multiplier of all weapons you use by +[1/2/3] when you roll a natural 19 or 20 that is confirmed crit hit.

Devastating Rage [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 30, Requirements: Mighty Sunder]
While raged all your vorpal strikes inflict Improved Sunder and do additional 10d6 bane damage (like Vicious damage type).

Tantrum [Cost: 2, Ranks: 1, Progression: 30, Requirements: none]
Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 25 hit points to activate this ability and attack enemies around you. This deals +5[W] damage and has 50% chance to knock down each damaged enemy briefly on failed fortitude save vs. 20 + Strength modifier. Abilities that triggers on Supreme Cleave also triggers on Tantrum.

Wrathless Spirit

its ok. like I said earlier, I only really have a problem with rages in long raids. could be more useful for players that *ahem* have a habit of dying or like to dismiss rage for scrolling or something.

Greater Frenzy

I don't like it only because I will always be frenzying. there will be times when I don't want to lose any more hp because im dangerously low for some reason. it also defeats the purpose of frenzy and death frenzy. is it stacking on top of the frenzies? that's a lot of hp to be losing, even for regular fighting without other abilities that require a hp cost.

Deathless Frenzy

so in other words, my 1200+ hp barb can be at -1000 and keep fighting under frenzy? that's a lot of pot chugging after then fight is over.

Extended Rage

already have extend rage in OS

Tireless Charge

would it conflict with fatigue after rage is done before you get Tireless Rage feat?

Blood Trail

not a fan of temp hp, especially when its for such few hp like 4. also SC requires 10 hp to use, so hopefully theres a lot of mobs surrounding you to make it worth using, not to mention all the bane damage from vicious you will be doing to yourself at the same time.

Devastating Rage

so basically, you are adding 10d6 bane damage since normally barbs would be raged all the time while fighting.

FestusHood
08-06-2014, 08:03 PM
Looking at a Keen Scimitar's Critical Power:
normal: 6
Critical Rage: 8
Death Frenzy: 8
Critical Rage + Death Frenzy: 10
Holy Sword: 16

Maybe you were confused by the incorrect description text currently shown for Death Frenzy. The text implies it grants +1 critical multiplier on all rolls, when it actually is restricted to 19-20.

No, it adds +1 to all criticals. Just like it did before the enhancement pass. At least that was my observation when i had both critical rage and death frenzy. Did you observe differently? I could always tell when death frenzy had worn off when i started seeing smaller crits.

If what you are describing is accurate, it is an even worse idea to nerf it in any way. More than that, the stuff being talked about here is a waste of time, since barbs will not be able to even approach bards or neo-paladins in terms of dps. Leaving them with what?

Skeen
08-06-2014, 08:10 PM
ok, looking at post #6

first, theres a lot of stuff in the cores. I feel its a little too busy and it would be an obvious no brainer to go pure just for that huge increase in dps, not that I already don't go pure anyways.

Perfect, this is exactly what I was going for, a clear reason not to multiclass.


enchantment saves are quite nice, but that is the Achilles heal of barbarians. their will saves are historically low and even with a small boost from raging, its not enough. wisdom is an unwritten dump stat because in DDO, you need investment in it to gain its usefulness. I feel like + to enchantments is not going to matter enough to want it.

Enchantment saves a a subset of will saves, I didn't want to overall increase their will saves because as you said it is a historical weak spot but amping it some seemed needed. It's not super important though


when you deal vicious damage to enemies, you are already dealing bane damage. so the suggestion is to have a higher bane damage than Frenzy and Death Frenzy at all times?
Yes, higher Bane damage on every strike is the goal. Viscous is only active when you activate Frenzy, not all the time.


Crushing Wave just doesn't fit for barbs. Primal Scream deals sonic damage and when I think of barbs, I always think sonic. I just picture barbarians yelling and screaming a lot and that would fall under sonic.
As I mentioned earlier, Cacophony can work for this instead and is probably a better fit.


I don't see the connection for FB and aligned weapons.
Aligned seemed appropriate as Barbs don't care who they are attacking, just so long as they are killing. Do you have a more appropriate type which bypasses DR on a broad range of mobs?


+20 hp at core 6 is not worth it. 100 hp should be the starting point.
I wouldn't turn down 20HP, but 100HP sounds great too. 100 seems a little high for an enhancement though (can't believe I just said that).


double strike is not something barb related and more Tempest Ranger or Fighter. crit multipliers, crit chances and high damage is the cats meow for a FB barbarian.
OK, fine. You and the robot lover are probably right about the doublestrike observation, it just seems like other melee get huge amounts of doublestrike while Barbs get none. It sounds like many are crying about increasing the critical multipliers and ranges so wanted to stay away from those even though I totally agree with you about Barbs should get big crits.


+6 rages is way too much. I have 9 rages on my barbs and that's usually plenty. its those long raids where I have to be more careful.
I disagree. I rarely ran out of rages in the past, but now I am using more clickies and have to unrage to use them which burns through the rages.


when AC gets redone again, the AC reduction might come in handy, but as of right now its pretty much uselss. rather see fort reduction.
I agree, I have no problem seeing any AC decrease related enhancements replaced with something else.


I don't think Power Rage needs a boost. I think its fine the way it is. my barbs can get their strength up into the 70s/80s consistently right now and I don't even have top gear and finished their past lives yet.
Barbarians always need more strength, I put everything into strength and have never gotten to 80. I can get in the low 70's. You'll have to share with me how you get into the 80's.


jump needs to be excluded from Athletics. a barbarian, except dwarfs with Throw your Weight Around, are going to invest in str that affects their jump skill. when cap was 20, I used to put a few points into, but its just not needed anymore when 30 is the jump cap.
Barbs gotta have a high jump to rain death down on their enemies. I wouldn't turn down an extra point of jump just like I wouldn't turn down an extra 20HP.


I don't understand the point of Rage Damage. there are already lots of ways to increase your damage and Rage increases your strength score which affects your modifier. so you want to add +5 to the modifier?
Exactly. Barbs are all about more DPS, to get more DPS we need more damage.


I hate Blood Tribute. only because its temporary hp and maxxed out it will only absorb maybe a hit or 2 in heroics and -3 hits in epics. ive come to an understanding researching barbarians that temporary hp is a part of the class, but for me to be on board with it, it needs to scale better into epics.

Blood Trail.. no. 50 temporary hp when you Supreme Cleave and you will be lucky if you get 50 temp hp. 10 isn't enough to be worth it and 50 isn't either. again, I hate temp hp in epics and I didn't waste my points to get this on Live. its just not worth it.
I agree, it doesn't seem like enough. When I played with increasing the amount of temp HP it seemed like too big of a number so only did a moderate increase which is better than what it was.


Critical Heal I like the thinking behind that. it feels very Frenzy Berserkery. I just don't know how well that would translate into the game and would have to actually test it to see. one thing I would change for sure though is it should apply to any weapon.
Ya, the heal when you inflict damage fits very well. I think a multiplier based on the Barb level is needed though.


I don't think Focused Wrath needs to be changed, but if the devs didn't feel it was too OP I wouldn't complain.
I took the "on a 19/20" off as it seemed to limit it too much. I like it without the limit.


I don't think the (w) in Tantrum needed to be increased either, but if the devs didn't feel it was too OP I wouldn't complain.
Tantrum is pretty weak for a tier 5 ability and begs for attention, even without factoring in the -25HP garbage. I believe +7W is solid for a Barb, I think I remember the proposed Paladin cleave to be +6W. The save DC needs to be better though, I think 20 + Barbarian level + Strength modifier is more in order.

Scrabbler
08-06-2014, 08:58 PM
No, it adds +1 to all criticals. Just like it did before the enhancement pass.
No, it adds +1 to criticals on 19-20, just like it did before the enhancement pass. Back then the limitation was correctly included in the description.

(Prior to the pass, FB2 gave +1 mult on 19-20 and then FB3 gave it another +1. The pass removed all crit bonuses from regular Frenzy, but the devs forgot to move the 19-20 limitation into the Death Frenzy text. You can still see the phrase "an additional +1" in Death Frenzy as a reminder of the incorrect edit)

It is extremely intentional that Barbarians were never given an ability that gave them +1 crit mult on all attack rolls, because that would push them into using Rapier, Falchion, or Kukri over any kind of Axe. That would be against the desired Barbarian image.

Qhualor
08-06-2014, 09:09 PM
Strikes me that most of the people whose main concern with the barbarian class is lack of self healing are people who don't actually play barbarians. I think those who actually play barbarians have made their peace with it.

That said, nerfing death frenzy seems like the antithesis of what the typical barb player would want. If you can't heal, you should at least be able to do stellar dps. Currently it is possible to have both critical rage and death frenzy at the same time. This comes at a high investment cost however. 18 barbarian levels, and virtually all of your ap spent in those two trees. In practice, this will work out to exactly as much power as the new proposed holy sword spell will for paladins, with a much greater cost to achieve.

I'm against the idea of making the crit multiplier from death frenzy either only on 19-20, or a tier 5 ability. This is a dps nerf for those willing to pair this with crtiical rage. I didn't realize there was a glaring problem with doing this that needed to be addressed.

If barbarians end up weaker than bards or bard splits, or even paladins dps wise, it won't matter what else you do for them, nobody will want to play them.

I made my piece with it when cap was 20. as the game changed increasing the cap, mobs dealing much higher damage than heroics, the lack of defense for barbs, barbs left behind in self healing options/improvements when every other class were made easier to slot it with more options or get the umd at no real loss in build and DDO going from healers in groups a few years ago to its expected everyone BYOH it became extremely difficult to be stay alive and be worth that party slot. the attraction to play a barb has almost completely disappeared because barbs have not caught up to how the game changed.

im not sure how others are building there barb, but it conflicts with my barbs dps. my barbs do deal stellar dps, but the problem is using the best self healing options that are very penalizing in epics. SF pots seriously decrease your stats and saves and you cant afford that. look at all the talk just over Divine Grace. people have been splashing Pally for the saves and theres a lot of concern over not being able to make decent saves when it gets changed. those pots also penalize your run speed for 30 seconds, so you fall behind in the group. they don't stack higher than 10, so you have tabs full of them taking up precious inventory slots. dealing consistent stellar dps isn't enough to survive through a quest and asking for an update to self healing in a BYOH DDO for barbs I don't think is too much to ask for as long as it fits the theme.

that must be a tight fit if you are able to get Death Frenzy and Crit Rage. I tried that with my Ravager, but I felt I was giving up too much in the trees just for the frenzies. I don't have any issues with Crit Rage, so im fine if it stays as is.

Silverleafeon
08-06-2014, 09:39 PM
Feedback links for the Alternative trees on post #6 are being put right below the trees inside post #6 as well.
Thank you very much.


It is probably time to take the bull by the horns and discuss in detail Barbarian Crit bonuses, what they are and what they should be??


Strikes me that most of the people whose main concern with the barbarian class is lack of self healing are people who don't actually play barbarians. I think those who actually play barbarians have made their peace with it.

I will be the first to admit that I have only played a Barbarian for about 14 million xp. Normally I would reincarnate into a Barbarian, but between Sev's Pally Project, this Project, and my Socerer tree project, that is too many classes to play all at once. I like to lead groups, and I don't like standing around waiting for a healer because one does not earn xp while sitting upon an airship.



That said, nerfing death frenzy seems like the antithesis of what the typical barb player would want.

I agree this concerns me a lot, the last thing I want to do is nerf the Barbarian class, yet I hesitate to promote huge boosts to crits as well.

By tucking the Frenzy tree into tier 5 as "+3 crit multiplier on 19~20" I have combined Death Frenzy and Focused Wrath, and allowed the versatility of not using Death Frenzy when appropriate. Hence this is a slight buff not nerf for the FB tree.



If you can't heal, you should at least be able to do stellar dps.

I quite agree.


Currently it is possible to have both critical rage and death frenzy at the same time. This comes at a high investment cost however. 18 barbarian levels, and virtually all of your ap spent in those two trees. In practice, this will work out to exactly as much power as the new proposed holy sword spell will for paladins, with a much greater cost to achieve.

This is of great concern to me in multiple ways. I don't want to nerf Barbarians, yet if we leave these bonuses as is, and these bonuses are the best available then one other barbarian build will be worth choosing. This is why I changed Ravager tier 5 (which may be a mistake) into the same "x3 on 19~20" as Frenzy Barbarian.

Any and all feedback on the Ravager tree crit bonus will be very welcome. I do need help here.



I'm against the idea of making the crit multiplier from death frenzy either only on 19-20, or a tier 5 ability.
One of us is misinformed on this point.
I was under the impression that death frenzy is already +1 on 19~20, but is not labeled as such.
{This is the reason why I like to have a toon in the class I am working on, so I can just log in and test.}



This is a dps nerf for those willing to pair this with crtiical rage. I didn't realize there was a glaring problem with doing this that needed to be addressed.

Currently the only one expressing great concern over the crossover crit bonus grabbing is me and me alone.
This is an independent project and there are no Devs involved here.
If we are lucky, the same Devs that fashioned the new Holy Sword spell will be more generous than I feel able to be.
After all Sev is a Barbarian / Fighter fan, and he has expressed interest publically in helping Barbarians.
However that day may or may not come, I am just hoping to press the possibilities forward as best I can.


If barbarians end up weaker than bards or bard splits, or even paladins dps wise, it won't matter what else you do for them, nobody will want to play them.

A quite agree.
First and foremost, a Barbarian should shout dps.
The fact that Holy Sword spell is being proposed is hope for Barbarians as everyone knows Pally dps < Barb dps.



What are we losing and what are we gaining here?

I removed an effective "+1 crit range, +1 crit multiplier on 19~20" and replaced it with "+3 crit multiplier on 19~20."

Wow, heavy math, well here goes:

http://ddowiki.com/images/Cleaver%2C_Hewer_of_Suffering.png


{2.5[2d8] +8 +35 str bonus from ((70ish str)*1.5) + ((5 power attack)*2) } 20 x 3


With the Axe I am going to assume we can work up to 8x crit on a 19~20 with the Legendary Dreadnought Epic Destiny.


What I am removing would be the possibility of 17~18 X 3 + 19~20 X 6 also using Legendary Dreadnought Epic Destiny.

Which is better?
What if I used a static number like 100 and plugged it into both?
Assuming one only missed on a roll of one?

((((100/20)*17) + (((100/20)*2)*8)) = 165

((((100/20)*15) + +(((100/20)*2)*3) + (((100/20)*2)*6)) = 165


Wow, remarkable, they are exactly the same?


How about:

http://ddowiki.com/images/Epic_Sword_of_Shadow.png

The monster of them all, the ESoS, and yes my main toon has one of these after hundred of von raids.

{2.5[2d6] +10 enhancement +35 str bonus from ((70ish str)*1.5) + ((5 power attack)*2) } 18~20 x3


Hmm...more imperfect math by me using static 100 plugged into Crit bonuses


With the ESoS I am going to assume we can work up to 17~18 X 3 + 7x crit on a 19~20 with the Legendary Dreadnought Epic Destiny.


What I am removing would be the possibility of 15~18 X 3 + 19~20 X 5 also using Legendary Dreadnought Epic Destiny.



((((100/20)*15) + +(((100/20)*2)*3) + (((100/20)*2)*7)) = 175

((((100/20)*13) + +(((100/20)*4)*3) + (((100/20)*2)*5)) = 175




WOW, this is not a nerf at all, I guess you can see why I want the new Ravager to be x3 on 19 ~ 20....

hunzi2010
08-06-2014, 10:06 PM
I dont know why people keep quoting the Esos, I have farmed and farmed and farmed and i have been playing for 4 years. no seal or shard.....
My barb was my main.
he was a frenzy beserker. this in definition is a high hp high dps meat basher.
thats his roll in a group. bash bash bash. i did build him originally with high umd and he could cast heal scrolls and raise dead scrolls.
he was doing very big DPS before the nerf. now the problem I faced with him was that I know while raged he couldnt cast a scroll or use a wand. thats fine, but also couldn't use renewl or coocoon and i would have to keep deraging to cast a heal scroll. the problem with that is I lost my weapon bond.
this is the basic fundamentals of the barbarian play style that I had. so I hope that this may be also able to be looked at as a guide for your development. so you get an understanding of how I played my barbabrian, which had 4 lives 3 of them barbarian.
p.s. I loved my barbarian......and he was a dwarf, so he also concentrated on greartaxes.
hope this input may help guys.
cheers.

FestusHood
08-06-2014, 11:01 PM
I still have a barbarian on Orien. I'll grab a falchion and go test death frenzy tonight when i can get online. If the death frenzy bonus is really only on 19's and 20's, then it's frankly garbage compared to what bards already have and what is being proposed for paladins.

Let's face it. The swashbuckler tree has changed the paradigm of what can be considered overpowered in terms of critical threat profiles.

People mention the sword of shadows, but swashbuckler gives every weapon it works on the same 18-20 x3 crit profile that the sos has. Now people might say they are only one handed weapons. Well the single weapon fighting line has pretty much eliminated any deficiency involved with that.

The universal 18-20 x3 profile that swashbucklers enjoy would be gamebreaking enough, but then we must consider the existence of so many swashable named weapons with enhanced critical profiles. The foresters brushhook being chief among these, with a 13-20 x4 crit profile while swashbuckling. There are many more single handed weapons with enhanced crit profiles than two handed weapons. In fact, the only two handed weapons i can think of are drow maul and greataxe, sos, epic xuum, and sireth. There is no two handed weapon with a x4 multiplier that i am aware of.

You can get 13-20 x3 with a sireth using the monk or rogue enhancements. That is a critical power of 16. That is the baseline you have to start with when thinking about what barb crit profiles should look like.

So if it turns out that all crit multiplier enhancements for barbarians only work on 19's and 20's, they are still going to be behind the curve dps wise. Each stacking multiplier of this type only adds two to the critical power of the weapon. This type of enhancement gives no extra benefit to weapons with enhanced critical profiles, since a normal greataxe will receive as much benefit from it as an sos.

The question is, do we want barbs to have the same critical profiles as these other classes, or better?

How many 19-20 crit multipliers would need to be stacked on the cleaver for example to give it a critical power of 16? Six. So if you're going to go with 19-20 multipliers as the vehicle for barb dps, you better go with 6 at the start, just to pull it even.

DrWily
08-07-2014, 02:27 AM
At this time I am still working my own Proposal for the Enhancement trees and some (very) minor Feat reshuffling. I've also thought up of some feat ideas for improving Rage. I will release them soon, along with the trees, when they're all finished.


Tantrum is pretty weak for a tier 5 ability and begs for attention
Having worked on that and most of FB already, I boosted it quite a bit.


If you can't heal, you should at least be able to do stellar dps.
Agreed. Although my proposal for FB at the moment has kinda given both options.


First and foremost, a Barbarian should shout dps.
I also agree on this.


concerning the ravager cap...
I've removed it from the cap and made it a T5 ability based on Intimidate. The capstone now gives a bonus to Str, Con, and Intimidate.


If barbarians end up weaker than bards or bard splits, or even paladins dps wise, it won't matter what else you do for them, nobody will want to play them.
I agree on this.
My thoughts on Swashbucklers is critting all the time and never getting hit.
My thoughts on Barbarians is scoring Vorpals and huge crits while making enemies regret hitting you.
I see the Paladins as more DPS/Support against evil things (which just so happens to be most enemies you fight in-game)


he was doing very big DPS before the nerf.

this is the basic fundamentals of the barbarian play style that I had. so I hope that this may be also able to be looked at as a guide for your development.
Also noted. I will refer to this on my proposal.


not a fan of temp hp
I've boosted a lot of things that give temp hp. Hopefully it should be better than what it is now.

the_one_dwarfforged
08-07-2014, 02:40 AM
I still have a barbarian on Orien. I'll grab a falchion and go test death frenzy tonight when i can get online. If the death frenzy bonus is really only on 19's and 20's, then it's frankly garbage compared to what bards already have and what is being proposed for paladins.

Let's face it. The swashbuckler tree has changed the paradigm of what can be considered overpowered in terms of critical threat profiles.

People mention the sword of shadows, but swashbuckler gives every weapon it works on the same 18-20 x3 crit profile that the sos has. Now people might say they are only one handed weapons. Well the single weapon fighting line has pretty much eliminated any deficiency involved with that.

The universal 18-20 x3 profile that swashbucklers enjoy would be gamebreaking enough, but then we must consider the existence of so many swashable named weapons with enhanced critical profiles. The foresters brushhook being chief among these, with a 13-20 x4 crit profile while swashbuckling. There are many more single handed weapons with enhanced crit profiles than two handed weapons. In fact, the only two handed weapons i can think of are drow maul and greataxe, sos, epic xuum, and sireth. There is no two handed weapon with a x4 multiplier that i am aware of.

You can get 13-20 x3 with a sireth using the monk or rogue enhancements. That is a critical power of 16. That is the baseline you have to start with when thinking about what barb crit profiles should look like.

So if it turns out that all crit multiplier enhancements for barbarians only work on 19's and 20's, they are still going to be behind the curve dps wise. Each stacking multiplier of this type only adds two to the critical power of the weapon. This type of enhancement gives no extra benefit to weapons with enhanced critical profiles, since a normal greataxe will receive as much benefit from it as an sos.

The question is, do we want barbs to have the same critical profiles as these other classes, or better?

How many 19-20 crit multipliers would need to be stacked on the cleaver for example to give it a critical power of 16? Six. So if you're going to go with 19-20 multipliers as the vehicle for barb dps, you better go with 6 at the start, just to pull it even.

youre right about all that, but id rather they nerf all that bull than continue the trend. eventually the standard crit profile will be 2-20 x7. i dont want that...

Silverleafeon
08-07-2014, 03:18 AM
I will insert a strong note in the top posts that Barbarian players are very concerned with recent Bard and Palladian crit bonuses...

That they feel Barbarians should be top DPS in the game.

One way to accomplish this would be Raging granting melee power or all the tree gaining melee power.
At this time, I am still working on grasping melee power and its effects upon the game.

Yes, the Barbarian Crit bonuses should be strong, how strong? I don't know, but strong?

Zerkul
08-07-2014, 08:03 AM
I will insert a strong note in the top posts that Barbarian players are very concerned with recent Bard and Palladian crit bonuses...

That they feel Barbarians should be top DPS in the game.

One way to accomplish this would be Raging granting melee power or all the tree gaining melee power.
At this time, I am still working on grasping melee power and its effects upon the game.

Yes, the Barbarian Crit bonuses should be strong, how strong? I don't know, but strong?
In my tree I intentionally raised the Rage Crit frenzied has up to 3 ranks. Even with that little modification my Barbarian wouldn't be top DPS VS the new hybrid swashbucklers or double khopeshes/scimitars monk-kensai splashes...

Risk should mean power, maybe Barbarian trees should simply abound in power and less in survivability following so the opposite direction people want. I think that barbs lack of selfhealing is what mades them fascinating and challenging to play: if they can be top DPS people will still bring them in parties knowing though that their high power will need dedicated healer. I honestly don't want a game where every class can do everything: barbs should retain their flaws and strengthen their strengths.

... To make them more powerful there are many ways: simpliest would be to allow them to use double strength bonus on twohanded weapons. This way it would make the Barbarians the way to go for twohanded fighting. Regarding the crit bonus on 19-20, if we run that way maybe we should double the bonus from crit rage so that ranks1 makes +2 and rank2 makes +4... Also one could convert Core Deathfrenzy to a +1 flat bonus to crit mult on all the range or even onecould simply pump up the tree with melee power.

Roughly the target should be to increase Barbarian DPS at endgame by a 20%/30% at least so they get ahead the over-mentioned builds.

Silverleafeon
08-07-2014, 08:11 AM
Roughly the target should be to increase Barbarian DPS at endgame by a 20%/30% at least so they get ahead the over-mentioned builds.

That will actually be easy to do.


Tier 1 in whatever tree:

Furious Rage

While in a Barbarian state of Rage, you gain +30 melee power.


Done.

Scrabbler
08-07-2014, 10:45 AM
Furious Rage
While in a Barbarian state of Rage, you gain +30 melee power.
Done.
Nah, then that becomes a splash situation. Have to make the bonus per-class level or something. (And once it's per-level, may as well drop the Rage requirement)

Scrabbler
08-07-2014, 10:47 AM
At level 6, Barbarians should gain the "Manymelee" active feat, which for 20 seconds every 2 minutes causes your melee attacks to do 2 attacks. Improves to 3 and 4 attacks at class levels 11 and 16.

I'm only 50% joking.

Zerkul
08-07-2014, 11:10 AM
That will actually be easy to do.


Tier 1 in whatever tree:

Furious Rage

While in a Barbarian state of Rage, you gain +30 melee power.


Done.
+30 melee power =/= 30% DPS. That's less but it's a good starting point though at tier 1 would be too much powerful for multiclassing purpose. I'd rather include melee power directly into rage/greater rage/mighty rage class features in order to enforce staying pure. In this way multi classes that seek melee power will be disappointed by the no-casting disadvantage in rage. It should be 5 rage/15 greater rage/30 mighty rage.

Skeen
08-07-2014, 12:33 PM
I still have a barbarian on Orien. I'll grab a falchion and go test death frenzy tonight when i can get online. If the death frenzy bonus is really only on 19's and 20's, then it's frankly garbage compared to what bards already have and what is being proposed for paladins.

Let's face it. The swashbuckler tree has changed the paradigm of what can be considered overpowered in terms of critical threat profiles.

People mention the sword of shadows, but swashbuckler gives every weapon it works on the same 18-20 x3 crit profile that the sos has. Now people might say they are only one handed weapons. Well the single weapon fighting line has pretty much eliminated any deficiency involved with that.

The universal 18-20 x3 profile that swashbucklers enjoy would be gamebreaking enough, but then we must consider the existence of so many swashable named weapons with enhanced critical profiles. The foresters brushhook being chief among these, with a 13-20 x4 crit profile while swashbuckling. There are many more single handed weapons with enhanced crit profiles than two handed weapons. In fact, the only two handed weapons i can think of are drow maul and greataxe, sos, epic xuum, and sireth. There is no two handed weapon with a x4 multiplier that i am aware of.

You can get 13-20 x3 with a sireth using the monk or rogue enhancements. That is a critical power of 16. That is the baseline you have to start with when thinking about what barb crit profiles should look like.

So if it turns out that all crit multiplier enhancements for barbarians only work on 19's and 20's, they are still going to be behind the curve dps wise. Each stacking multiplier of this type only adds two to the critical power of the weapon. This type of enhancement gives no extra benefit to weapons with enhanced critical profiles, since a normal greataxe will receive as much benefit from it as an sos.

The question is, do we want barbs to have the same critical profiles as these other classes, or better?

How many 19-20 crit multipliers would need to be stacked on the cleaver for example to give it a critical power of 16? Six. So if you're going to go with 19-20 multipliers as the vehicle for barb dps, you better go with 6 at the start, just to pull it even.

Thank you for describing this. In this thread, I feel as if I am one of the only people that have read the Swashbuckler and proposed Paladin enhancements. On top of all that you mentioned I would like to paste in one of the Swashbuckler tier 5 enhancement called Exploit Weaknesses.
Exploit Weaknesses: While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically hit.

Now that is a tier 5 enchantment! None of the piddly suggestions we have (including my own) can really compare to this enhancement. I toned down my suggestions (some still thought I was joking) as I didn't think I would be taken seriously if I didn't. I'm not saying we should have a lot lower threat range (like 15) as a Barb, but we need to have huge multipliers. By level 20 Frenzied needs to have a passive 18-20 range, but I'd take a 19-20. I'm thinking FB must have at least a passive +5 critical multiplier by lvl 20 to keep pace with current enhancements and resume the top DPS role.

Silverleafeon
08-07-2014, 12:48 PM
We probably want:

Tier 1 Ravager

Furious Rage

While in a Barbarian class state of Rage, you gain (((Barbarian level) * 2) + (Epic level)) melee power.



Frenzy should gain 10 melee power while active

Death Frenzy should gain 10 melee power while active

Supreme Frenzy should gain 10 melee power while active.

RobbinB
08-07-2014, 01:10 PM
Power Rage

+1/+2/+3 Strength and -1/-2/-3 AC while raging

AP cost 1/1/1

Cracking Attack

Cracking Attack: Melee Attack: Deals +0.5/+1/+1.5[W] extra damage. Damaging enemies reduces their AC by -1/-2/-3 for 20 seconds on a failed fortitude save vs. DC (10 + Half Barbarian level + strength modifier) (Activation Cost: 5 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds)

AP cost 2

Tier Two



What's the point of the AC reductions? For power rage, a penalty of -1/-2/-3 isn't relevant. Even a penalty of -5/-10/-15 might not be considered relevant to a barbarian, isn't there AC equivalent to zero against any mob on any content of significance?

Same for cracking attack. Why would I care about reducing mob AC at all (I thought we always hit?). Even if I cared, under the new AC system, I would need the reductions to be more significant, for example -3/-6/-9 with no save or -5/-10/-15 keeping the fort save.

Summary suggestion: replace AC with something relevant or make the AC reductions more significant

Skeen
08-07-2014, 01:23 PM
What's the point of the AC reductions? For power rage, a penalty of -1/-2/-3 isn't relevant. Even a penalty of -5/-10/-15 might not be considered relevant to a barbarian, isn't there AC equivalent to zero against any mob on any content of significance?

Same for cracking attack. Why would I care about reducing mob AC at all (I thought we always hit?). Even if I cared, under the new AC system, I would need the reductions to be more significant, for example -3/-6/-9 with no save or -5/-10/-15 keeping the fort save.

Summary suggestion: replace AC with something relevant or make the AC reductions more significant

How about this instead?
Cracking Attack: Melee Attack: Deals +1/+2/+3[W] extra damage. On hit, blindness for 3/6/12 seconds, no save. Cooldown: 8 seconds.

autochthon
08-07-2014, 01:35 PM
What's the point of the AC reductions? For power rage, a penalty of -1/-2/-3 isn't relevant. Even a penalty of -5/-10/-15 might not be considered relevant to a barbarian, isn't there AC equivalent to zero against any mob on any content of significance?

Same for cracking attack. Why would I care about reducing mob AC at all (I thought we always hit?). Even if I cared, under the new AC system, I would need the reductions to be more significant, for example -3/-6/-9 with no save or -5/-10/-15 keeping the fort save.

Summary suggestion: replace AC with something relevant or make the AC reductions more significant

http://ddowiki.com/page/Grazing_hit

You deal damage 95% of the time, hit some amount of the time that you're not told, and miss 5% of the time. The AC system needs as much work as heavy armor to be made anything close to reasonable or relevant though.

Skeen
08-07-2014, 01:36 PM
We probably want:

Tier 1 Ravager

Furious Rage

While in a Barbarian class state of Rage, you gain (((Barbarian level) * 2) + (Epic level)) melee power.



Frenzy should gain 10 melee power while active

Death Frenzy should gain 10 melee power while active

Supreme Frenzy should gain 10 melee power while active.

Just a general question about this project. I look at the trees as Frenzied should be the clear top DPS tree and the others as support trees with elements that add to the quality of life for FB or trees just for fun with some interesting abilities. Is this the way others see the trees?

autochthon
08-07-2014, 01:43 PM
Just a general question about this project. I look at the trees as Frenzied should be the clear top DPS tree and the others as support trees with elements that add to the quality of life for FB or trees just for fun with some interesting abilities. Is this the way others see the trees?

In any class focusing on one tree should make you viable in your class role. Any tree should be viable for doing what barbarians do, rather tahn one being a "this is the tree to use" and the others being "supporting" elements to the tree.

The fact that DDO hasn't been all that effective at managing it is why capstones in general suck.

FB should be about speed and AoE (that's the theme I see).
Occult Slayer should put emphasis on non-rage mechanics.
Ravager should be the rage tree.

Going for the capstone should be viable for all of them. One tree shouldn't be "best DPS". You can reach the same goal using different mechanics across the trees.

the_one_dwarfforged
08-07-2014, 01:58 PM
At level 6, Barbarians should gain the "Manymelee" active feat, which for 20 seconds every 2 minutes causes your melee attacks to do 2 attacks. Improves to 3 and 4 attacks at class levels 11 and 16.

I'm only 50% joking.

we already have that, its called haste boost, double strike boost.

the_one_dwarfforged
08-07-2014, 02:10 PM
Thank you for describing this. In this thread, I feel as if I am one of the only people that have read the Swashbuckler and proposed Paladin enhancements. On top of all that you mentioned I would like to paste in one of the Swashbuckler tier 5 enhancement called Exploit Weaknesses.
Exploit Weaknesses: While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically hit.

Now that is a tier 5 enchantment! None of the piddly suggestions we have (including my own) can really compare to this enhancement. I toned down my suggestions (some still thought I was joking) as I didn't think I would be taken seriously if I didn't. I'm not saying we should have a lot lower threat range (like 15) as a Barb, but we need to have huge multipliers. By level 20 Frenzied needs to have a passive 18-20 range, but I'd take a 19-20. I'm thinking FB must have at least a passive +5 critical multiplier by lvl 20 to keep pace with current enhancements and resume the top DPS role.

the numbers i have seen about exploit weakness say that its only about 10% extra chance to crit, but it is still an incredibly silly thing. bards would have to do such incredibly weak damage (numerical value per any non crit) for this to make sense to me.

giving paladins an almost permanent +1 range and multi is also a really straight up stupid thing to do imo. want to trade being alive for great dps on a melee? play a barb. want to stay alive easily on a melee at the price of dps (except for in content with undead/outsiders, like back in the day...), play a paladin. now pallies will have the best of both worlds, be stepping on fighters and barbarians turf, and the lazy unoriginal way of buffing classes continues. ill keep saying it, if this doesnt stop one day auto crits will be the norm except on 1s.

so, this is why i am against adding more of these effects into the game. because this is turning into an all out arms race that has a pretty obvious and pretty small limit to how far it can go before even fanbois will be unable to deny that it makes no sense. that said i like the idea of +6 or whatever crit multiplier on 19-20s for barbs.

even if barbs get a pass giving them what they need, including enhanced crit profile, between that and the pally and bard op-ification, and the fact that dagger rogues, and staff users all have an automatic great crit profile, and the fact that ranged power wont be coming for some time, this leaves fighters who arent half monk and rangers who arent monkchers totally face down in the mud. keen edge used to be a top end enhancement...now its bottom of the barrel... and rangers? they have nothing. its just sad.

the_one_dwarfforged
08-07-2014, 02:15 PM
We probably want:

i think there are many solid ideas being thrown out, too many. imo the conversation is losing focus and changing the suggested trees so frequently will make it harder to have a clear direction for this. agree about identifying what we want each tree to be mostly about, and what sort of bonuses will be in each of them, and the barb class itself, before moving forward.
not trying to belittle the effort though.

autochthon
08-07-2014, 02:16 PM
the numbers i have seen about exploit weakness say that its only about 10% extra chance to crit, but it is still an incredibly silly thing. bards would have to do such incredibly weak damage (numerical value per any non crit) for this to make sense to me.

The core concept was, in my opinion, for Bards to go for a spellpower crit build riding on the massive number of bonus damage in the SB tree that relies on crits. Of course the way it works means it ends up being a very small damage boost so it looks great on paper but isn't excessive in practice.

One major issue is how heavily crit is stressed. There should be options that don;t rely on crit (and crit multiplier) to deal all your damage.

Edit: Ideally Paladin should have either/or, and Barb should have access to either/or as well. Frontline HP sack melee kinda screams "target me"

Silverleafeon
08-07-2014, 02:25 PM
Melee power is not subject to fortification like critical hits are.
This makes it valuable vs bosses, there probably should be a melee power with the crit bonuses in tier 5.

What % boost would an extra +2 crit multiplier on 19~20 grant?
It could be interpreted that way, instead of just boosting crit multi-pliers to the ceiling and creating spikey damage.

autochthon
08-07-2014, 02:30 PM
Melee power is not subject to fortification like critical hits are.
This makes it valuable vs bosses, there probably should be a melee power with the crit bonuses in tier 5.

What % boost would an extra +2 crit multiplier on 19~20 grant?
It could be interpreted that way, instead of just boosting crit multi-pliers to the ceiling and creating spikey damage.

Depends on a lot of things. If teh natural range is 19-20/x2 you're looking at going from +10% damage to (10% crit 200% multiplier) to ~30% damage (10% crit, 400% multiplier) roughly +20% relative damage assuming nothing is modifying your threat or multipliers already.

Skeen
08-07-2014, 02:40 PM
the numbers i have seen about exploit weakness say that its only about 10% extra chance to crit, but it is still an incredibly silly thing. bards would have to do such incredibly weak damage (numerical value per any non crit) for this to make sense to me.

With the new Single Weapon Fighting feats they are dishing out as much or more damage as THF. Recently someone on the forums made a YouTube video of their character fighting with their choice 2 handed weapon and another video with a SWF spec'd character fighting the same mob and the SWF spec killed the mob faster.

autochthon
08-07-2014, 02:45 PM
With the new Single Weapon Fighting feats they are dishing out as much or more damage as THF. Recently someone on the forums made a YouTube video of their character fighting with their choice 2 handed weapon and another video with a SWF spec'd character fighting the same mob and the SWF spec killed the mob faster.

That may have a lot to do with the number of procs and scaling options available to a bard too. Rather than Exploit Weakness.

Skeen
08-07-2014, 02:50 PM
i think there are many solid ideas being thrown out, too many. imo the conversation is losing focus and changing the suggested trees so frequently will make it harder to have a clear direction for this. agree about identifying what we want each tree to be mostly about, and what sort of bonuses will be in each of them, and the barb class itself, before moving forward.
not trying to belittle the effort though.

I don't expect the devs to actually use these ideas we are throwing out there, instead use the essence of what we are requesting and deploy their own version of what we roll up. I mean does anyone believe the devs are going to take enhancements we deem as worthy and roll them into the Barb trees? Not being sarcastic, just want to know if that is the expectation.

autochthon
08-07-2014, 02:52 PM
I don't expect the devs to actually use these ideas we are throwing out there, instead use the essence of what we are requesting and deploy their own version of what we roll up. I mean does anyone believe the devs are going to take enhancements we deem as worthy and roll them into the Barb trees? Not being sarcastic, just want to know if that is the expectation.

A solid idea/mechanic is solid whether it was crowd sourced or not. Realistically can't expect it, but I've seen stranger.

Skeen
08-07-2014, 02:52 PM
That may have a lot to do with the number of procs and scaling options available to a bard too. Rather than Exploit Weakness.

Absolutely, I'm not even sure it was a Bard that did it, but I am sure they were using SWF feats.

autochthon
08-07-2014, 03:01 PM
Here's a thought:

Frenzied Berserker: TWF/rager tree
Ravager: THF/Rager Tree
Occult Slayer: Non-rage DPS w/ anti-magic (SWF compatible by nature)

Don't they sound nice? Three trees and three weapon styles. Make them crossover firendly for splashes and they'd be nice. Not that I'm trying to completely derail the concepts presented, just providing another way to define the trees.

Skeen
08-07-2014, 03:27 PM
Here's a thought:

Frenzied Berserker: TWF/rager tree
Ravager: THF/Rager Tree
Occult Slayer: Non-rage DPS w/ anti-magic (SWF compatible by nature)

Don't they sound nice? Three trees and three weapon styles. Make them crossover firendly for splashes and they'd be nice. Not that I'm trying to completely derail the concepts presented, just providing another way to define the trees.

Not to sound too jerky but, Frenzied should be THF and the rest is meh. OC's use of anti-magic works well and is desirable to some extent though. If any tree were to be chopped I'd say cut Ravager. I only use the Rage boosting enhancements from Ravager and only because it makes me. I'd say if someone wants to do TWF they be an Elf Ranger or puny Human. I've never seen someone using 2 handed weapons in Ranger and I've never seen someone using 2 weapon fighting be a Barb. I could see myself using Ravager to try it and see, but nothing interests me in this tree except moving all the kill yourself quirks from Frenzied to Ravager. Ravager seems like the perfect tree for hurting yourself to use your abilities. I don't know why DDO ever associated kill yourself to use mediocre abilities with the Barbarian. I've never played an AD&D campaign or any other D&D game where that happens. Did the thinking go something like this; hmm, Barbs have the highest HP dice, lets make them damage themselves so having a D12 for HP means nothing. Ya, that sounds like a great idea! I'm guessing that's how the brain storming session went at DDO HQ.

Silverleafeon
08-07-2014, 03:34 PM
I guess the big question is how do we make sure Barbarians are the super dps class?

That is the question many of your brought to me very early in this thread.

That is the question that I have not really answered yet.

So in order not to go too fast, I will come back next week and gather up any thoughts upon the matter.


Those of you wondering, melee power is a % multiplier against your final damage numbers including odd damage like poison or con damage.
Hence Melee Power 40% is a multiplier of (1.4 * total damage), you can expect likely your epic destinies will grant melee power.


I realize if we are lucky enough to get Sev over here and work on barbarians he will shift and sort everything.
Good ideas and highly debated points are very valuable to the Devs.
It is possible our thread here with all your feedback will attract him, as there is groundwork for him to work with.

Thank you all for this, you folks are great.

We don't know what will happen, but we can hope, I will return after the weekend to give everyone a breather and chance to ponder
the biggest question of all ~ DPS.

RobbinB
08-07-2014, 03:55 PM
How about this instead?
Cracking Attack: Melee Attack: Deals +1/+2/+3[W] extra damage. On hit, blindness for 3/6/12 seconds, no save. Cooldown: 8 seconds.

Sure, anything is better than an AC effect. Even with a save would be a major improvement.

Seikojin
08-07-2014, 04:07 PM
I think to really push barb dps where it belongs, they need boosts in glancing blows to = twf's offhand. So at the top end, a barb is doing 100% damage in glancing blows as well as normal blows. Perhaps a 25% chance to proc effect. However I really think the whole glancing system needs to be changed so it is proccing everything like normal, the glancing blow damage reduction is just a flat percentage reduction.

For melee power, I do like the idea of barb's being one of the only classes to get some in the heroic levels.

Qhualor
08-07-2014, 04:28 PM
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Heart_of_Invulnerability_(3.5e_Feat)

AH-HA! now do the math to translate better to DDO and there is your increased DR while raging.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Vigorous_Rage_(3.5e_Feat)

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Improved_Vigorous_Rage_(3.5e_Feat)

YES! finally my searchfu came through! <insert DDO math formula to make it work> and voila!

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Dragon_(3.5e_Feat)

sounds similar to whats coming with MRR, but I thought this was nice for better survivability.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Heart_of_Fury_(3.5e_Feat)

heres something that sounds like Deathless Frenzy

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Cunning_Rage_(3.5e_Feat)

thought this was interesting.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Chaotic_Rage

for the guy that wanted to have Aligned Weapons in the tree he built.

Skeen
08-07-2014, 04:52 PM
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Chaotic_Rage

for the guy that wanted to have Aligned Weapons in the tree he built.

Ya, I thought about that one, it's just too small a group of mobs to be useful.

The proposed Paladin tree at core 5 gets All weapons you wield are considered Good for DR considerations. I wanted something along these lines for our core 5 perk, obviously not good but something with a broad base.

Skeen
08-07-2014, 04:59 PM
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Heart_of_Invulnerability_(3.5e_Feat)

AH-HA! now do the math to translate better to DDO and there is your increased DR while raging.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Vigorous_Rage_(3.5e_Feat)

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Improved_Vigorous_Rage_(3.5e_Feat)

YES! finally my searchfu came through! <insert DDO math formula to make it work> and voila!

These all look like a good base to build off of. I like the healing ones. I'd take the fortitude as reflex save one too, but I'd prefer str mod to reflex though.

autochthon
08-07-2014, 07:11 PM
Not to sound too jerky but, Frenzied should be THF and the rest is meh. OC's use of anti-magic works well and is desirable to some extent though. If any tree were to be chopped I'd say cut Ravager. I only use the Rage boosting enhancements from Ravager and only because it makes me. I'd say if someone wants to do TWF they be an Elf Ranger or puny Human. I've never seen someone using 2 handed weapons in Ranger and I've never seen someone using 2 weapon fighting be a Barb. I could see myself using Ravager to try it and see, but nothing interests me in this tree except moving all the kill yourself quirks from Frenzied to Ravager. Ravager seems like the perfect tree for hurting yourself to use your abilities. I don't know why DDO ever associated kill yourself to use mediocre abilities with the Barbarian. I've never played an AD&D campaign or any other D&D game where that happens. Did the thinking go something like this; hmm, Barbs have the highest HP dice, lets make them damage themselves so having a D12 for HP means nothing. Ya, that sounds like a great idea! I'm guessing that's how the brain storming session went at DDO HQ.

There are fundamentally two barbarian fantasies. One is your vision, the other is a TWF vision. It's just not generally supported in DnD for reasons related to the developers more than anything else.

Common thematics in barbarian elemts across the entire genre include self damage, 2H or DW (axes usually), light armors, and an inspiring/intimidating presence to go with their rage. I don;t see a reason why all these elements can't have a home.

Essentially you're pushing to have one tree be your central vision. Totally fine. But you're mixing thematics with mechanics, and assuming that your tree should be the "best" DPS tree because it's the one you like. I'd rather see a more balanced approach.

Make Ravager the new Frenzied Berserker (thematically). Make (TWF possibly) barbarian the berserker tree, about speed and sacrificing HP to deal massive damage. Make Occult tslayer a balance between raging and more disciplined approach. Everybody wins, barbarians have options for DPS style, and you add a thematic element missing form DDO.

Qhualor
08-07-2014, 08:33 PM
I prefer to have all trees support 2HF and 2WF. it opens up a lot more build possibilities and I don't see any reason why barbarian must be 2HF. my 2WF pure dwarf Ravager has really good dps, but could do a lot more if there was a little more support.

DDO says they already do support it, but its obvious they don't https://www.ddo.com/en/barbarian-101

A barbarian fights well with a single large weapon or when wielding a weapon in each hand.

Scrabbler
08-07-2014, 08:35 PM
I don't know why DDO ever associated kill yourself to use mediocre abilities with the Barbarian. I've never played an AD&D campaign or any other D&D game where that happens. Did the thinking go something like this; hmm, Barbs have the highest HP dice, lets make them damage themselves so having a D12 for HP means nothing. Ya, that sounds like a great idea! I'm guessing that's how the brain storming session went at DDO HQ.
The reasoning went like this:
In D&D 3.5, the Frenzied Berserker prestige class has high damage, but a 5% chance to kill a teammate in every fight. We can't really have players kill teammates, so that effect will target yourself instead. And instead of a small chance of total death, let's remove that randomness and just make it progressive damage.

Skeen
08-07-2014, 10:44 PM
Essentially you're pushing to have one tree be your central vision. Totally fine. But you're mixing thematics with mechanics, and assuming that your tree should be the "best" DPS tree because it's the one you like. I'd rather see a more balanced approach.

Make Ravager the new Frenzied Berserker (thematically). Make (TWF possibly) barbarian the berserker tree, about speed and sacrificing HP to deal massive damage. Make Occult tslayer a balance between raging and more disciplined approach. Everybody wins, barbarians have options for DPS style, and you add a thematic element missing form DDO.

I don't really see trees in other classes as being balanced, each one serves a specific purpose. You don't see Assassin stuff mixed in with the Mechanic tree just like you don't see Archer stuff mixed in with Tempest. There are too many trees for Barbarian forcing us to spread our points out unnecessarily. I see a clear difference and need in OS and FB, Ravager is just kind of.... there.

To be perfectly honest I would have no problem playing Ravager if everything in Frenzied was moved to Ravager. I have no sentimental attachment to FB at all other than it seems to have the best DPS options. My fantasy Barbarian is Half-Orc, 2 handed, and max strength, so this is what I play. Myself as I'm guessing pretty much everyone that plays a Barb nowadays is doing it because they have some vision of "their" Barbarian. I don't think it's because of any advantages the class offers. I only have 1 toon (several mules though) that I play and it's a Barb. Sure a fighter may be easier (never played a Figher) but they don't represent me as well as a Barb.

Skeen
08-07-2014, 10:56 PM
The reasoning went like this:
In D&D 3.5, the Frenzied Berserker prestige class has high damage, but a 5% chance to kill a teammate in every fight. We can't really have players kill teammates, so that effect will target yourself instead. And instead of a small chance of total death, let's remove that randomness and just make it progressive damage.

Ya, well, that's the kind of stuff you get when you move to 3.x. Never heard of that but it wouldn't surprise me if it was in 3.x. Funny how all the trees don't support this theory though. I mean you would think the tree that is all about cutting, mutilating, scarring and pain would have self damage to activate these enhancements.

It's kind of funny though, because for a while now I've wanted to propose to devs that because the Barbarian becomes so enraged and has such disdain for magic that if a warforged/bladeforged is partied with a raging Barb there is a 1% chance for the Barb to "accidently" strike the robot from time to time. I would totally support that.

AbyssalMage
08-08-2014, 12:00 AM
I'd say if someone wants to do TWF they be an Elf Ranger or puny Human. I've never seen someone using 2 handed weapons in Ranger and I've never seen someone using 2 weapon fighting be a Barb. I could see myself using Ravager to try it and see, but nothing interests me in this tree except moving all the kill yourself quirks from Frenzied to Ravager.

Minotaur's use TWF and they definitely rage. Dwarves would be split between all three fighting styles. Elves/Halflings would definitely go TWF or SWF raging. Giants, Ogres, and Orcs use TWF/SWF and rage. The problem is the player base has pigeonholed Barbarians into a 2HF club and refuses to accept that as a martial class, Barbarians should be lethal in all three spheres.

On a side note, if they were to implement wresting/hand-to-hand combat into DDO, Barbarian would be a great fit. Maybe I watched to much WWE when I was a kid. Who wouldn't want to throw a (Insert NPC here) or two off the ledge to their doom :) Or crush their skull in with a well placed boot to the head after tripping them? Oh, if DDO would implement wrestling :)

Scrabbler
08-08-2014, 01:13 AM
On a side note, if they were to implement wresting/hand-to-hand combat into DDO, Barbarian would be a great fit. Maybe I watched to much WWE when I was a kid. Who wouldn't want to throw a (Insert NPC here) or two off the ledge to their doom :) Or crush their skull in with a well placed boot to the head after tripping them? Oh, if DDO would implement wrestling :)
It would be nice if they'd allow non-Monk characters to train Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat, and then get a different attack animation with it.

noinfo
08-08-2014, 02:44 AM
Barbarian Rage increases melee power: not sure on the amount but 1-5 points for each point of strength increase.

Re-arrange the order of Damage soaking ability: Currently I think it goes damage-dr then apply prr, have it go damage - prr then apply dr
Barbarian DR stack with other sources

While I would like to see Healing amp as well, I hate to see something overused and pally and monk already have it. A rapid recovery effect like the bard song that is always on for constant healing but lacking in burst.

Zerkul
08-08-2014, 03:50 AM
For balance purpose, Kensai and Tempests should be better at TWF: they get flat modifiers to damage which are best with shield/two weapon fighting with high hit frequency.

Strength, which is the best asset of the barbarians, it's best with THF and SWF (applies higher star mod.).

When I wrote the 3 trees proposed on first page of the thread I tried to explain these concepts:

Occult Slayer: defensive/anti-caster skills and healing ones.
Ravager: high single target DPS that gets higher by exploiting debilitating/CC effects. No direct approach but one that gets stronger with time. CC comes from fear effects, pain effects.
Frenzied: high AOE DPS and high AOE threat, coupled with trash mobs tanking skills and mobility. Frenzied loves the heat of the battle and prefer direct approach: the more foes the better.


These concepts should be coupled with higher raw damage: maybe simply buffing barbarians core class feature: the barbarian rage. More strength bonus and melee power would be the ways to go.

the_one_dwarfforged
08-08-2014, 04:22 AM
i dont think melee power should be in a heroic class, unless it is a very small amount given only at 20th level, because lets be honest any level 20 ability should be balanced for epics not heroics. but this would have to be carefully done because otherwise it could cause a whole new trend of op-flation for the devs to use in "balancing" things.

as for whether these suggestions are used or not, i hope the devs at least read it, and take note of the effort and care that went into them. if these suggestions even inspire them to do their jobs well, thats a win for me.

and something that occurred to me that i would like to vehemently say no to before i see it suggested by someone else (unless someone did and i missed it), no to twf two two handed weapons.

the_one_dwarfforged
08-08-2014, 04:23 AM
For balance purpose, Kensai and Tempests should be better at TWF: they get flat modifiers to damage which are best with shield/two weapon fighting with high hit frequency.

Strength, which is the best asset of the barbarians, it's best with THF and SWF (applies higher star mod.).

When I wrote the 3 trees proposed on first page of the thread I tried to explain these concepts:

Occult Slayer: defensive/anti-caster skills and healing ones.
Ravager: high single target DPS that gets higher by exploiting debilitating/CC effects. No direct approach but one that gets stronger with time. CC comes from fear effects, pain effects.
Frenzied: high AOE DPS and high AOE threat, coupled with trash mobs tanking skills and mobility. Frenzied loves the heat of the battle and prefer direct approach: the more foes the better.


These concepts should be coupled with higher raw damage: maybe simply buffing barbarians core class feature: the barbarian rage. More strength bonus and melee power would be the ways to go.

i like your vision of the trees.

autochthon
08-08-2014, 04:38 AM
I don't really see trees in other classes as being balanced, each one serves a specific purpose. You don't see Assassin stuff mixed in with the Mechanic tree just like you don't see Archer stuff mixed in with Tempest. There are too many trees for Barbarian forcing us to spread our points out unnecessarily. I see a clear difference and need in OS and FB, Ravager is just kind of.... there.

To be perfectly honest I would have no problem playing Ravager if everything in Frenzied was moved to Ravager. I have no sentimental attachment to FB at all other than it seems to have the best DPS options. My fantasy Barbarian is Half-Orc, 2 handed, and max strength, so this is what I play. Myself as I'm guessing pretty much everyone that plays a Barb nowadays is doing it because they have some vision of "their" Barbarian. I don't think it's because of any advantages the class offers. I only have 1 toon (several mules though) that I play and it's a Barb. Sure a fighter may be easier (never played a Figher) but they don't represent me as well as a Barb.

That's the point. Each of those trees accomplishes a specific goal. Now DDO is pretty bad at balancing trees in some spots, but when trees are attempting the same fundamental purpose they tend to work out.

Mechanic is ranged DPS with skillmonkey, Assassin is melee DPS with instant kill. Both are viable primary trees as far as I can tell. Same for Ranger's melee and ranged (ranged just sucks in DDO for certain reasons). There's no reason Barb can't have a tree for "each" melee loadout, make everybody happy and balance them all well enough for them all to be viable. Limited splashability so you have something to do with your AP in each tree of course. When your options are "melee DPS x3" they should all be viable rather than one of them being viable and the others just being there.

Skeen
08-08-2014, 12:27 PM
That's the point. Each of those trees accomplishes a specific goal.

I understand what you are saying about balance, meaning TWF in one tree and THF for another. I'm fine with that, I always liked TWF when I played Ranger and could see myself doing that as a Barbarian at some point. This would give a purpose for Ravager (or Frenzied, I don't really care which tree THF lands in).


Same for Ranger's melee and ranged (ranged just sucks in DDO for certain reasons).
OK, I'll take the bait on this one just in case you are't trolling and being serious. I'm pretty sure Ranger is at the top of just about everyone's list for being nerfed, unless of course you are talking about Tempest. Even my friends that only play a ranged Ranger for dozens of lives say it's completely ridiculous. :)

autochthon
08-08-2014, 12:31 PM
OK, I'll take the bait on this one just in case you are't trolling and being serious. I'm pretty sure Ranger is at the top of just about everyone's list for being nerfed, unless of course you are talking about Tempest. Even my friends that only play a ranged Ranger for dozens of lives say it's completely ridiculous. :)

It was my understanding that specific mechanics mean you've only got one real build. Which sucks. Nevermind that "monks" do it better (and really 10k stars is a monk build more than anything else).

Skeen
08-08-2014, 12:33 PM
and something that occurred to me that i would like to vehemently say no to before i see it suggested by someone else (unless someone did and i missed it), no to twf two two handed weapons.

YES! YES! We must have this. This is a great idea. Increase the size of the Half-Orc by about .25, put a min 22 strength requirement on 2THWF and then pickup 2 Cleavers baby. Let the carnage begin. That is a great idea! Thank you sir. :)

autochthon
08-08-2014, 12:47 PM
YES! YES! We must have this. This is a great idea. Increase the size of the Half-Orc by about .25, put a min 22 strength requirement on 2THWF and then pickup 2 Cleavers baby. Let the carnage begin. That is a great idea! Thank you sir. :)

TWF Frenzied Berserker Tree

L20 Core: Barbarian Ferocity
Passives
+2 Str, +2 Con
+2 Str, +2 Con while raging
You treat all two handed weapons as one handed weapons, you may wield a two handed weapon in each hand. Treat all one handed weapons as light weapons.

Because you want to make things dead.

Edit: Ravager would have double weapon dice as tehir level 20 core >.>

Edit 2: Earlier cores would be TWF and AS bonuses (with some rage bonuses in cores and trees)

Damion01
08-08-2014, 02:37 PM
what about a Barbarian capstone such as this:

Capstone "Remorseless" level requirement 20.
As the Barbarian's lust for carnage and death grow to even greater heights, while enraged every time the Barbarian is damaged in combat he loses 1 AC and gains +2 damage, cannot have more damage modifiers than total AC. or something like this? so then DDR would play a greater role in the Barbarian class.. not like AC amounts to a hill of beans now.. but the barbarian would be gaining increased dmg potential as he gets beaten on.. hopefully the PPR/DR.

Damion01
08-08-2014, 02:38 PM
what about a Barbarian capstone such as this:

Capstone "Remorseless" level requirement 20.
As the Barbarian's lust for carnage and death grow to even greater heights, while enraged every time the Barbarian is damaged in combat he loses 1 AC and gains +2 damage, cannot have more damage modifiers than total AC. or something like this? so then DDR would play a greater role in the Barbarian class.. not like AC amounts to a hill of beans now.. but the barbarian would be gaining increased dmg potential as he gets beaten on.. hopefully the PPR/DR keep him alive.

the_one_dwarfforged
08-08-2014, 04:04 PM
OK, I'll take the bait on this one just in case you are't trolling and being serious. I'm pretty sure Ranger is at the top of just about everyone's list for being nerfed, unless of course you are talking about Tempest. Even my friends that only play a ranged Ranger for dozens of lives say it's completely ridiculous. :)

its not bait, ranged is generally considered weak in ddo.

before monkchers (monkchers are what people want to nerf, not ranged combat, a nerf to ranged outside of monkchers would mean it going from existing to not existing), ranged combat was balanced because you couldnt achieve ridiculous dps outside of many shot which is on a 2 minute cd. when you only have many shot and your dps outside of it is bad, you feel very weak. a good ranger could post solid numbers, but for 9/10 players they just didnt have enough gear/pastlives to contribute.

the reason why this is balanced is because not having to melee is (despite the fact that it is mentioned frequently) an underrated defense, probably because there is no statistic for it.

monkchers break this balance not because ranged combat is powerful now, but because that specific class split exploits one dubious "feature" after another, and some unintended (probably) synergies that result from those "features."

the only real issue i see with ranged (outside of monkchers) is the mindset of players who play them. everybody wants their favorite class to be top dps (see the sickening paladin dev diary...its a tank frickin class...) regardless of whether that even remotely makes sense in the game.

autochthon
08-08-2014, 07:17 PM
its not bait, ranged is generally considered weak in ddo.

before monkchers (monkchers are what people want to nerf, not ranged combat, a nerf to ranged outside of monkchers would mean it going from existing to not existing), ranged combat was balanced because you couldnt achieve ridiculous dps outside of many shot which is on a 2 minute cd. when you only have many shot and your dps outside of it is bad, you feel very weak. a good ranger could post solid numbers, but for 9/10 players they just didnt have enough gear/pastlives to contribute.

the reason why this is balanced is because not having to melee is (despite the fact that it is mentioned frequently) an underrated defense, probably because there is no statistic for it.

monkchers break this balance not because ranged combat is powerful now, but because that specific class split exploits one dubious "feature" after another, and some unintended (probably) synergies that result from those "features."

the only real issue i see with ranged (outside of monkchers) is the mindset of players who play them. everybody wants their favorite class to be top dps (see the sickening paladin dev diary...its a tank frickin class...) regardless of whether that even remotely makes sense in the game.

There's nothing wrong with a paladin being able to deal DPS if they give up some of tehir paladin-y tankiness for it. Also keep in mind that "DPS" is more or less needed for solo play, which is why every single class in Wow has a DPS spec.

Grayda
08-08-2014, 10:47 PM
The purposed changes to the frenzied berserker tree look nice... Overall redoing it to where they can heal themselves in some manner while raged, less feat requirements for top tier stuff, and the new frenzy... Looks like it might make them more fun to play.

DrWily
08-09-2014, 02:47 AM
Capstone "Remorseless" level requirement 20.
As the Barbarian's lust for carnage and death grow to even greater heights, while enraged every time the Barbarian is damaged in combat he loses 1 AC and gains +2 damage, cannot have more damage modifiers than total AC. or something like this? so then DDR would play a greater role in the Barbarian class.. not like AC amounts to a hill of beans now.. but the barbarian would be gaining increased dmg potential as he gets beaten on.. hopefully the PPR/DR.
Noted, updated FB for something similar to this.


]When I wrote the 3 trees proposed on first page of the thread I tried to explain these concepts:

Occult Slayer: defensive/anti-caster skills and healing ones.
Ravager: high single target DPS that gets higher by exploiting debilitating/CC effects. No direct approach but one that gets stronger with time. CC comes from fear effects, pain effects.
Frenzied: high AOE DPS and high AOE threat, coupled with trash mobs tanking skills and mobility. Frenzied loves the heat of the battle and prefer direct approach: the more foes the better.


These concepts should be coupled with higher raw damage: maybe simply buffing barbarians core class feature: the barbarian rage. More strength bonus and melee power would be the ways to go.
Worked things in to be similar to this, but not too much.

I've reworked my thoughts on the trees (multiple times), and have decided to leave it as they are now. I also worked in some feats to boost the Barbarian's Rage feature. Any feedback on this will be appreciated.


First off, the 'potion' I was talking about:
Barbarian Hip Flask:
Drink from a flask of soothing liquids to help bolster your strength. This drink grants 2d2 temporary hitpoints per Barbarian level for five minutes. As you gain more levels in Barbarian the amount of temporary HP that can be gained will also increase. (Cooldown: 5 minutes)
Enhancements from the Barbarian Enhancement trees can add special effects to your Hip Flask.
(2d2 temp hp at Lv3 when you get it, 2d3 at Lv8, 2d4 at Lv12, 2d5 at Lv16, and 2d6 at Lv20. The effects the Enhancements give the 'potion' all last 5 minutes, even if the temp hp is depleted before then.)


Second, some new feats:
Painless Raging:
While raging, you gain +10 Physical Resistance. (Prerequisites: Barbarian Rage, Toughness)

Improved Painless Raging:
While Raging, you gain an additional +20 Physical Resistance. Stacks with Painless Raging. (Prerequisites: Painless Raging)

Rage-caster:
You can cast spells or use scrolls or wands while raging on a successful Concentration check against 15 + your Barbarian level + Constitution modifier. (Prerequisites: Barbarian Rage, Mental Toughness)

Distracting Rage:
When you Rage, you also activate a Bluff effect against enemies around you (using your Intimidate instead of bluff). (Prerequisites: Barbarian Rage, Skill Focus: Intimidate, Intimidate 9 Ranks)


The Frenzied Berserker

Cores:
Core Level 1: Die Hard: You gain the Die Hard feat, and automatically stabilize when incapacitated. You also gain +1 Melee Power per point spent in this tree.
Core Level 3: Frenzied Conditioning: +15 HP. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant your melee weapons Lesser Vampirism for five minutes.
Core Level 6: Frenzy: Activation Cost: 10 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Enter a frenzy, increasing your strength by +2, increasing your Melee Power by 15, and adding Vicious to your melee weapons.
Core Level 12: Extreme Conditioning: +20 HP. Your Hip Flask now grants Vampirism instead of Lesser Vampirism.
Core Level 18: Death Frenzy: Activation Cost: 20 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Expend 20 hit points to enter a Death Frenzy for one minute. You gain 4 Strength and 20 Melee Power. You increase your crit multiplier by an additional 1 when raging. Your melee weapons gain 'Greater Vicious'.(+4d6 damage to your attacks while dealing 1d3 damage to yourself per attack.)
Core Level 20: Remorseless Brute: +4 Strength, +50 HP, +15 Melee Power. While enraged every time the Barbarian is damaged in combat he takes 1 (bane) damage per stack, then gains +3 Melee Power per stack for 6 seconds. This effect stacks up to 100 times, and is removed if the barbarian reaches 20% of his max HP. Your Hip Flask now grants 'Greater Vampirism' instead of Lesser Vampirism. (1d4+1 pos energy healing per hit)


Tier One - Requires Die Hard, Barbarian level 1

Extra Rage: +1/+2/+3 Rage use per rest (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Cracking Attack: Melee Attack: Deals +0.5/+1/+1.5[W] extra damage. Damaged enemies take 10%/20%/30% more damage for 20 seconds on a failed fortitude save vs. DC (10 + Half Barbarian level + strength modifier + Sunder modifiers) (Activation Cost: 5 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds) (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Die Harder: Your range of unconsciousness extends +10/+20/+30 HP. When you drop below 1 health, you gain 20/45/60 temp hitpoints. This can only trigger once every five minutes. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Reckless Rage: +1/+2/+3 Strength and -10/15/20 PRR while raging (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Athletics: +1/+2/+3 Balance, Jump, Swim, Tumble. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
-Rank 3: When you activate Barbarian Rage, you gain +20% Unique bonus to movement speed for 1 minute.


Tier Two - Requires Barbarian Level 2, 5 APs spent in tree

Angry Arms: +1%/+2%/+3% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +3%/+4%/+5% glancing blow damage. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Two Handed Fighting)
Body Blow: Damaging enemies with Cracking Attack reduces their Fortitude saving throws by 2/4/6 for 20 seconds. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Cracking Attack)
Blood Tribute: Activation Cost: 10 Hit Points. Gain +50/+100/+200 Temporary Health for one minute. You have a stacking -1 penalty to constitution until you rest or die. (Cooldown: 3 seconds) (AP Cost: 1 per rank, 3 Ranks)
Extra Action Boost: +1/+2/+3 additional Action Boost use per rest. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Haste Boost: +10%/+20%/+30% Action Boost bonus to attack speed for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds. (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)


Tier Three - Requires Barbarian Level 3, 10 APs spent in tree

Mad Munitions: +1%/+2%/+3% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +3%/+4%/+5% glancing blow damage (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Greater Two Handed Fighting, Angry Arms)
- - -
Blood Trail: When you Supreme Cleave, gain 1d3 temporary hitpoints per enemy damaged, up to 30 maximum. Lasts for 10 seconds. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank, Requires: Supreme Cleave)
Supreme Cleave: Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 10 hit points to activate this ability to attack enemies around you. This attack deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage. (Activation Cost: 10 Hit Points. Cooldown: 10/6/3 seconds) (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)
Strength or Constitution: Choose one:
+1 Strength OR +1 Constitution (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)


Tier Four - Requires Fighter Level 4, 20 APs spent in tree

- - -
Crazy Strike: When you score a critical hit with Cracking Attack, for 12 seconds you gain 33/66/100 temporary hitpoints and lose -20/-18/-15 AC & Physical Resistance while they last. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Body Blow)
Sapping Blow: Melee Attack: Deals +1/+2/+3[W], 1d4/1d6/1d8 Strength damage, and 1d4/1d6/1d8 Dexterity damage. When you hit an enemy with this attack, you benefit from the effects of the Lesser Restoration/Restoration/Greater Restoration spell. (Cooldown: 30 seconds) (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)
Wade In: When you Supreme Cleave, you gain +1 Primal bonus to Attack and Damage and -1 AC and Physical Resistance per enemy damaged, up to 3/6/10 maximum. Lasts for 4 seconds. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Supreme Cleave)
Strength or Constitution: Choose one:
+1 Strength OR +1 Constitution (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)


Tier Five - Requires Barbarian Level 5, Character Level 12, 30 APs spent in tree

Focus Wide: When you score a vorpal hit, you increase your chance of triggering weapon effects with glancing blows by +3% and gain +3% glancing blow damage for 12 seconds. Stacks up to 5 times. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank, Requires: Mad Munitions)
Focused Wrath: While raging, increases the critical multiplier of all weapons you use by +1/+2/+2 on Vorpal hits/Vorpal hits/Critical hits. (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)
Lash Out: Supreme Cleave has a 50%/75%/82% chance to cause bleeding to damaged enemies, inflicting up to 1/2/3 stacks. This can stack up to 5 times. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Slicing Blow)
Shattering Spin: Your Supreme Cleave bypasses 5%/15%/25% fortification, and critical hits made by Supreme Cleave inflict up to 1/3/5 stacks of Armor Destruction. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Improved Sunder)
Tantrum: Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 30 hit points to activate this ability and attack enemies around you. This deals +5[W] damage and knocks down each damaged enemy briefly on a failed Fortitude save vs. 20 + Strength modifier + Trip modifiers. Abilities that trigger on Supreme Cleave also trigger on Tantrum. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)




The Occult Slayer:

Core Level 1: Weapon Bond: You build a psychic bond with your mainhand weapon. You strengthen your Weapon Bond by damaging enemies with attacks, up to once each second. Your Weapon Bond is broken when you change your mainhand weapon or die. (Bond strength caps at 200 from in-game observations)
Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 10 to gain a +5 Insight bonus to Attack and Damage for 15 seconds. (Cooldown: 1 minute)
Core Level 3: Resistance: +2 to all saving throws. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant +5 Magical Resistance and +3 to saves against magic.
Core Level 6: Elemental Defense: When enemy spells deal elemental damage to you, there's a 25% chance you'll gain 25 temporary hitpoints for 30 seconds. This can trigger up to once every 12 seconds. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant an additional +5 Magical Resistance and +3 to saves against magic.
Activate: You reduce your bond strength by 20 to gain +25% elemental absorbtion for 15 seconds. (Cooldown: 90 seconds)
Core Level 12: Blank Thoughts: You gain the Slippery Mind feat. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant an additional +5 Magical Resistance and +3 to saves against magic.
Core Level 18: Force Ward: You gain immunity to magic missiles and +5% Competence bonus to entirely avoid incoming spell damage. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant an additional +5 Magical Resistance and +3 to saves against magic.
Core Level 20: Dance of the Magic-Killer: Passive: +2 Constitution and all saving throws. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant an additional +10 Magical Resistance and +3 to saves against magic.
Activate: Enter a trance and gain a +5 bonus to your saves against magic, a bonus to Spell Resistance and Magical Resistance equal to your Constitution score, and when you are hit by a harmful spell (whether or not it's nullified or saved against) you gain Empowering Bond for a number of seconds equal to your Constitution score. You are considered Raged for it's duration (which is the same as the Barbarian's regular Rage) and activating this ability dispels your Barbarian Rage. Likewise, activating your Barbarian Rage dispels this Trance. (Cost: 50 Bond, 1 Rage)
-Empowering Bond: Gain 2 Bond Strength instead of 1 when you damage opponents.


Tier One - Requires Weapon Bond, Barbarian level 1

Extend Rage: Your barbarian rage lasts [25/50/75]% longer. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Head Tap: Melee Attack: Deals +0/+0.5/+1[W] damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells and attack 20% slower for 2/4/6 seconds. (Damaged players/humanoid enemies make the Zombie Form animation for it's duration) (Cost: 5 Bond, Cooldown: 12 seconds) (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)
Parrying Bond: While Weapon Bond 10+: +[2/4/6] Competence bonus to AC. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Uncanny Dodger: You gain +[1/2/3]% Dodge. Rank 3: +1 Reflex Saving Throw
- - -


Tier Two - Requires Barbarian Level 2, 5 APs spent in tree

Willpower Rage: You gain +[1/2/3] to Will saving throws while raged. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Knockout: Head Tap also puts enemies to sleep for 6/12/18 seconds on a failed Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 Barb level + Str Modifier + Stun Modifier). On Vorpal, enemies are instead stunned for 6 seconds (no save). (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Kinetic Bond: At weapon bond strength 45+, you deal 2d6 force damage with your attacks. This damage can trigger up to once every second. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank, Requires: Parrying Bond, Guarding Bond)
Guarding Bond: You gain +4 Physical Resistance at Weapon Bond 30+. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
-Rank 2: another +4 at Weapon Bond 60+.
-Rank 3: and another +4 at Weapon Bond 90+.
Spell-warding Bond: Activate: All damage caused by spells deal half damage for 10/15/20 seconds. (Cost: 20 Bond, Cooldown: 30 seconds, treated as an action boost, benefiting from Action Hero in LD) (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)


Tier Three - Requires Barbarian Level 3, 10 APs spent in tree

Bond of Retribution: While at Weapon Bond 100+, whenever an enemy hits you, theres a 7% chance to lose 10 Bond Strength and then gain a +1 unique bonus to critical threat range for 6 seconds. Repeated applications do not stack, but add to the timer. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)
Lessons of Nature: You gain +[2/3/4] to save vs. both disease and poison. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
-Rank 3: You don't fail disease or poison saving throws on a roll of 1.
Arcane Encumbrance: When enemies damage you with spells, there's a [10/20/30]% chance they'll be knocked down. (Does not affect bosses.) (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Lessons of Travel: You gain +[3/6/10] to Energy Resistances. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
+1 Constitution (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)


Tier Four - Requires Barbarian Level 4, 20 APs spent in tree

- - -
Arcane Absorption: While at Weapon Bond 50+, whenever a harmful spell is cast on you there is a 3%/6%/10% chance to reduce bond strength by 25 and then nullify the spell. (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)
Viscious Strike: Melee Attack: Deals +1/+1.5/+2[W] damage and inflicts Feedback on the enemy for 6/12/18 seconds. (Cooldown: 12 seconds) (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Reuires: Arcane Encumbrance, Arcane Absorbtion)
-Feedback - On Spellcast: Caster suffers 6-60 force damage. This damage is increased by the target's Spell Power.
Aligned Bond: While at Weapon Bond 100+, your weapon becomes Aligned, bypassing any Alignment-based Damage Reduction. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank, Requires Lessons of Travel)
+1 Constitution (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)


Tier Five - Requires Barbarian Level 5, Character Level 12, 30 APs spent in tree

Bond of Destruction: While at Weapon Bond 180+, you gain +1 Critical multiplier. While at Weapon Bond 180+, whenever you score a Critical hit, your bond strength is reduced by 30. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank, Requires: Bond of Retribution)
Vampiric Bond: While at Weapon Bond 75+, your weapon gains Lesser Vampirism. (AP Cost: 1, 2 Ranks, Requires: Lessons of Nature)
-Rank 2: While at Weapon Bond 150+, your weapon gains Vampirism in it's place.
Restorative Bonding Strike: Melee Attack: Perform a melee attack with +1[W] damage. If it hits, you and your nearby allies are healed by 1d2 per character level. (The heal from Restorative Bonding Strike is affected by your Positive Spell Power, if any) (Cost: 15 Bond, Cooldown: 15 seconds) (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)
Metalline Bond: While at Weapon Bond 150+, your weapon becomes Metalline, bypassing any metal-based Damage Reduction. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)
Crystalline Bond: While at Weapon Bond 120+, your weapon becomes Crystal, bypassing Crystal-based Damage Reduction. (AP Cost: 1, 1 Rank)



The Ravager:
Cores:
Core Level 1: Furious Rage: When you are raging and miss, you gain Fury for 6 seconds.
-Fury: +5 Melee Power. This effect stacks up to 5 times.
Core Level 3: Pain Touch: Your melee attacks deal 1d6 extra damage. This damage triggers at most once per second. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant +5 Melee Power.
Core Level 6: Demoralizing Success: When you score a vorpal hit in melee, you inflict Crushing Despair on nearby enemies for 30 seconds on a failed DC 20 Will saving throw. You then inflict Vulnerable Will for 15 seconds, regardless of the Crushing Despair saving throw. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant an additional +5 Melee Power.
Core Level 12: Pain Touch: Upgrades Pain Touch so your melee attacks deal 2d6 extra damage. This damage triggers at most once per second. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant an additional +5 Melee Power.
Core Level 18: Intimidating Fury: When you use Barbarian Rage, you trigger an Intimidate effect with a +15 bonus. Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant an additional +5 Melee Power.
Core Level 20: Avatar of Fear: +2 Strength and Constitution, +5 Intimidate. On critical hits you have a 3% chance to regenerate 1 use of Rage (only once every 2 minutes), and on vorpal hits your target is paralyzed with fear for 3 seconds (no save). Upgrades your Hip Flask to grant an additional +15 Melee Power, as well as +15 Physical Resistance.


Tier One - Requires Furious Rage, Barbarian level 1

Ritual Scarring: +[1/2/3] Intimidate, Haggle and Physical Resistance. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Hate: Make a melee attack that generates double threat. (Cooldown: 30 seconds, AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)
Do You Like Pain?: When you are hit: [10/25/50]% chance attacker takes 15% more damage for 6 seconds. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Barbarian Power Attack: Your Power Attack feat does 1/2/3 additional point of bonus damage but also has an additional -1/-2/-3 to your attack bonus. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Fearsome Rage: +[1/2/3] Constitution, Intimidate, and saves versus fear while raging. (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)
-Rank 3: When you activate Barbarian Rage, you gain immunity to fear for 1 minute.


Tier Two - Requires Barbarian Level 2, 5 APs spent in tree

Fear me!: When you intimidate, affected enemies are Shaken for 6 seconds (DC 13). They then take a -10 penalty to saves against fear regardless of whether or not they saved. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank, Requires: Ritual Scarring)
Mutilate: Hate additionally does +2d4 Charisma damage and +2d6 Bane damage, and now generates triple threat. (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank, Requires: Hate)
I Like Pain: When you are hit: 5% chance to gain 50/100/200 Temporary HP. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Do You Like Pain?)
Cruel Cut: Melee Attack: Deals 1d6/2d6/3d6 extra constitution damage. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Action Boost: Damage: Activate this ability to receive a +[10/20/30]% Action Boost bonus to weapon damage for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds) (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)


Tier Three - Requires Barbarian Level 3, 10 APs spent in tree

Aura of Fear: Nearby enemies receive a -2 penalty to Strength and Charisma. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires Fear me!)
-Rank 2: Nearby enemies receive a -2 penalty to Strength, Charisma, Dexterity and Wisdom.
-Rank 3: Nearby enemies receive a -2 penalty to all ability scores.
Slaughter: Melee Cleave: Deals +[5/7.5/10][W] damage to enemies in an arc. (Cooldown 1 minute) (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)
- - -
Festering Wound: Cruel Cut additionally inflicts 1/2/3 5-seconds stacks of 1d6 Poison damage every 2 seconds and the target loses -50% healing amplification for 5/10/15 seconds. Damage stacks fade one at a time. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Cruel Cut)
Strength or Constitution: Choose one:
+1 Strength OR +1 Constitution (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)


Tier Four - Requires Barbarian Level 4, 20 APs spent in tree

- - -
Laughter: For many Ravagers, there is no Laughter without Slaughter. Enemies hit by your Slaughter are also slowed down with intense pain for 6/12/18 seconds. (AP Cost: 2, 3 Ranks)
I Hit Back!: When you are hit: 10%/20%/20% chance to deal 2d8/4d8/6d8 bane damage to attacker. Only occurs once every 12 seconds. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks)
Dismember: Cruel Cut additional slows enemy movement speed, or slows attack speed, or deals 2d4/2d6/2d8 bane damage, or deals 6d4/6d6/6d8 chaotic damage. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: Festering Wound)
Strength or Constitution: Choose one:
+1 Strength OR +1 Constitution (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank)


Tier Five - Requires Barbarian Level 5, Character Level 12, 30 APs spent in tree

Visage of Terror: Terrorize enemies in a cone in front of you, killing them with fear if they fail a Will save vs your Intimidate. Enemies who make their saving throw are briefly paralyzed with fear instead. This is treated as a fear effect instead of a death effect. (Cost 1 Rage. Cooldown: 3 minutes) (AP Cost: 2, 1 Rank, Requires: Aura of Fear)
- - -
Bully: You deal +[5/10/15]% damage to helpless enemies. (AP Cost: 1, 3 Ranks, Requires: I Hit back!)
Critical Rage: Increases your critical threat range by 1/2 when raging. (AP Cost: 2, 2 Ranks)
Feel no Pain: When you score a Critical hit while raging, gain 50 Physical Resistance for 2 seconds. Only triggers once every 10 seconds. (AP Cost: 2, 2 Ranks, Requires: Critical Rage)
-Rank 2: On a Vorpal hit, you instead gain 100 Physical Resistance for 8 seconds. Only triggers once every 30 seconds.

autochthon
08-09-2014, 08:53 AM
For balance purpose, Kensai and Tempests should be better at TWF: they get flat modifiers to damage which are best with shield/two weapon fighting with high hit frequency.

Strength, which is the best asset of the barbarians, it's best with THF and SWF (applies higher star mod.).

Actually TWF benefits roughly equally as much from Strength as THF. It just happens that the only TWF trees in the game are Dex trees, and that the one tree which is possibly flexible (Kensei) favors high hit frequency over larger hits.

Silverleafeon
08-14-2014, 09:28 AM
More later as well as replies to your posts, but a few numbers:

Typical Melee Power bonuses seem to be in the 5 ~ 20 range.

They should probably go in high core or tier five protected places.

TWF benefits the most from melee power, so more support for two weapon fighting probably should be removed from Frenzy.


Considering adding an Anger Bar not unlike a Ki Bar to barbarian class rage on Ravager, not sure what it should or how it should function, but it would provide a renewable source to draw from.

autochthon
08-14-2014, 10:05 AM
More later as well as replies to your posts, but a few numbers:

Typical Melee Power bonuses seem to be in the 5 ~ 20 range.

They should probably go in high core or tier five protected places.

TWF benefits the most from melee power, so more support for two weapon fighting probably should be removed from Frenzy.


Considering adding an Anger Bar not unlike a Ki Bar to barbarian class rage on Ravager, not sure what it should or how it should function, but it would provide a renewable source to draw from.

The relative gains for TWF from melee power aren't any more than they are for any other weapon loadout.

Silverleafeon
08-14-2014, 10:58 AM
I'll try to get a DDO Math expert to look at it for me.

Melee power affect everything including special effects, so the more hits you have, the more melee power works?
Not sure if that is right, but looking into it.

autochthon
08-14-2014, 11:38 AM
I'll try to get a DDO Math expert to look at it for me.

Melee power affect everything including special effects, so the more hits you have, the more melee power works?
Not sure if that is right, but looking into it.

20 Melee Power will increase TWF DPS by 20%, SWF DPS by 20%, THF DPS by 20%, or S&B DPS by 20%.

+20% damage is always +20% damage. It doesn't magically become more effective because you're doing more hits. Whether or not TWF is better than THF in the first place is the only question, and that's legitimate. But it's not something that you have to leave out loadout support simply because you're including it.

Qhualor
08-14-2014, 12:27 PM
More later as well as replies to your posts, but a few numbers:

Typical Melee Power bonuses seem to be in the 5 ~ 20 range.

They should probably go in high core or tier five protected places.

TWF benefits the most from melee power, so more support for two weapon fighting probably should be removed from Frenzy.


Considering adding an Anger Bar not unlike a Ki Bar to barbarian class rage on Ravager, not sure what it should or how it should function, but it would provide a renewable source to draw from.

An Anger Bar doesn't really sound very PnP, more like MMO.

autochthon
08-14-2014, 12:30 PM
An Anger Bar doesn't really sound very PnP, more like MMO.

Mana bars aren't very PnP either. Or Ki bars. Or random stacking mechanics (Occult Slayer and Kensei). Nor is being centered particularly PnP (though it does emulate a PnP mechanic). Or how about Prestige Enhancements entirely? Because tehy are about as anti-PnP as anything in this game.

Plenty of stuff in DDO has diverged form PnP and DDO is better for it as an MMO. As long as the core stays in the right place everything is good.

Qhualor
08-14-2014, 12:47 PM
Mana bars aren't very PnP either. Or Ki bars. Or random stacking mechanics (Occult Slayer and Kensei). Nor is being centered particularly PnP (though it does emulate a PnP mechanic). Or how about Prestige Enhancements entirely? Because tehy are about as anti-PnP as anything in this game.

Plenty of stuff in DDO has diverged form PnP and DDO is better for it as an MMO. As long as the core stays in the right place everything is good.

Since we are allowed to cast spells in a live action game as much as we want and only restricted by cool down and a man pool, there has to be a way to limit casters in fights. The same thing for monks and ki. Their only restriction would be a cool down or they could endlessly use all their abilities at no sacrifice.

Barbarian power has always come from fighting hand to hand with their weapon and their power can grow from hitting targets or raging gaining temporary power. Some kind of bar that is used for additional power is not necessary. Barb power is supposed to be just raw fighting power.

autochthon
08-14-2014, 12:54 PM
Since we are allowed to cast spells in a live action game as much as we want and only restricted by cool down and a man pool, there has to be a way to limit casters in fights. The same thing for monks and ki. Their only restriction would be a cool down or they could endlessly use all their abilities at no sacrifice.

Barbarian power has always come from fighting hand to hand with their weapon and their power can grow from hitting targets or raging gaining temporary power. Some kind of bar that is used for additional power is not necessary. Barb power is supposed to be just raw fighting power.

Actually CD's do an exceptionally good job of gating caster power output without the need for a mana source. People underestimate how much global CDs and individual CDs mean in a game. It's not like "melee" classes are restricted in how many times they can use their special attacks, and tehy're hardly broken.

Or they could have just kept the vancian system and tweaked it to be functional in a real-time environment. Side effect being that Clerics/Wizards would be a bit more powerful than they currently are I suppose.

Not saying that Barbs need a rage bar. Just that if your only counter-argument is "not very PnP" it's not much of a counter-argument. I personally don't think they explicitly need a rage bar, but more mechanics to make them actually interactive wouldn't hurt.

Bladebolt
08-14-2014, 03:23 PM
Noted, updated FB for something similar to this.


Worked things in to be similar to this, but not too much.

I've reworked my thoughts on the trees (multiple times), and have decided to leave it as they are now. I also worked in some feats to boost the Barbarian's Rage feature. Any feedback on this will be appreciated.


First off, the 'potion' I was talking about: bla bla bla.... bla.




[B]The Frenzied Berserker
Bla bla bla bla ..... bla.

The Occult Slayer:
Bla bla blablabla bla. Bla.


The Ravager:
A bla bla blabla.... bla bla.

[/LIST][/COLOR]


THIS ALL SEEMS SO GOOD TO ME THAT I'M GOING TO START CRYING......

I have serious psychological problems.
Although I have other toons I am obsessed with my Barbarian.
The first character I created and my favorite.

I haven't played DDO for 7 months.
I gave up after I realized how OBSOLETE my barbarian was. (And after giving up on trying to get the SOS shard after 190+ runs on EH and a few on EE.)
Yes I could kill 1, 2 maybe 3 mobs in EE if I was careful and lucky.
I had some EE completions but my contribution to the victory was insignificant.

I know that I don't only speak for myself when I say that it is needed that the barbarians must find again their role in a party.


-So DrWily and all you guys that are working on this thank you so much!



I only have a few things to say:

1. Try to get Barbarian PPR high, sky high. This will reduce the healing requirement and maybe allow us to risk attacking even 2 mobs (!!!!!) at the same time on EE.
I don't expect and I don't want to see a self healing barbarian soloing everything... If I wanted solo action there are much better games. (I don't mean that I don't like the sustainability these healing enhancements and the potion provide! I love it!)

2 Barbarians need more strength.
Even if it is not the most important DPS factor it feels stupid to me having bards and fighters walking around with 90+ strength (buffed).
With the sacrifices I made to get more DPS and survivability I could hardly get my Barb up to 90.

3 MORE dps! really....!
We have all accepted that a monk/something/something can throw 5 x 250 or 5 x 300 damage punches in 1 second while stunning and immobilizing the enemy.
By the time a Barb swings his axe the mob is already dead....
We have accepted archers doing 5000-6000 dmg in 1 second.
So why not having the game's most brutal characters deal 1000+ damage on a regular hit? ( Always talking about end game stats and numbers.)
Yes it seems to much when you look at it but if you look at the whole picture is it really ???

4 2HF like it or not is what Barbarians are notorious for.
They like big scary looking weapons with sharp blades.
Yes a barbarian should be able to take a Quarterstuff and break your head with it better than any other char.
BUT they should lack the finesse and the technique to use it effectively in a fight.
The same principle applied to 2WF is that yes a Barbarian can hit harder that a fighter or anybody using the same 2 weapons but he can not be more of an expert in using them than a fighter, or a rogue or...
Anyway, my point is that the idea of the barbarian, a strong, angry, durable, self-trained and uncontrollable when fighting character isn't the incarnation of combat expertise and fighting skills, which are required for a 2WF melee.
That is my opinion but it is supported by the reputation and the barbarian image that most kids and adults carry in their minds.

I want to say once more thank you and I support your work 100%, I trust your decisions even if I could disagree on some points.
I just wrote down my point of view hoping that I have something to contribute towards your/our goal.
I hope the developers will really look into this topic and give us back the Barbarians as true Barbarians!

Psiandron
08-14-2014, 03:58 PM
I think you're weirding out on us Silver.

An anger bar? Really?

And why exactly? Is there some proposed enhancement that I missed where you do more damage the angrier that you get? Last I knew you were either raged (fill in type) or not. I'm okay with that set-up, I don't really think we need a little pink bar showing us how angry we are.

Sorry, I can't help being a d**k, it's my only special ability. ;D

Secondly,
Really don't see the need to nerf what TWF things that you've put in.

THF will always benefit more from barb than TWF and that's okay. If Turbine wants to do things to adjust the balance between THF/TWF/SWF that's fine. Addressing it further in an enhancement tree just makes the relationship needlessly complicated.

Btw, I do rather like what you've done in making the class somewhat more accessible to TWF toons. As I said before, the class will always be more THF friendly, but being able to eke out a bit more benefit for a TWF.
(Can you tell that I mostly play TWF toons?)

Silverleafeon
08-14-2014, 05:13 PM
Yes, an anger bar is off the wall, just thought I would throw it out there and see what happened.
So far the only promising point is Anger Bar = PPR or the like.
The more you kill then more PPR you have.


Leaving the TWF stuff we have in Fury in there, cause it fits.
Probably going to put +20 melee power inside the tier 5 crit bonuses for all three trees,
and have some sort of (+Barbarian Class level melee power into a rage feature).

That way the Devs can either/or/both with it.


I put the trees by DrWily on page one, nicely done., thank you!!!

autochthon
08-14-2014, 07:12 PM
I think you're weirding out on us Silver.

An anger bar? Really?

And why exactly? Is there some proposed enhancement that I missed where you do more damage the angrier that you get? Last I knew you were either raged (fill in type) or not. I'm okay with that set-up, I don't really think we need a little pink bar showing us how angry we are.

Sorry, I can't help being a d**k, it's my only special ability. ;D

Secondly,
Really don't see the need to nerf what TWF things that you've put in.

THF will always benefit more from barb than TWF and that's okay. If Turbine wants to do things to adjust the balance between THF/TWF/SWF that's fine. Addressing it further in an enhancement tree just makes the relationship needlessly complicated.

Btw, I do rather like what you've done in making the class somewhat more accessible to TWF toons. As I said before, the class will always be more THF friendly, but being able to eke out a bit more benefit for a TWF.
(Can you tell that I mostly play TWF toons?)

Why is it people think a barb is inherently going to be better at THF. Short of there being more enhancements for it that isn't actually the case, other than an exceptionally marginal benefit from the .1 more strength modifier they get to apply to the 2H weapon per swing vs an 80% procrate off hand

Edit: Sorry, there's also (0.5 Attribute Mod)*Doublestrike chance. Though that's depressed by potential offhand procs and the like as well.

Qhualor
08-14-2014, 07:29 PM
Yes, an anger bar is off the wall, just thought I would throw it out there and see what happened.
So far the only promising point is Anger Bar = PPR or the like.
The more you kill then more PPR you have.


Leaving the TWF stuff we have in Fury in there, cause it fits.
Probably going to put +20 melee power inside the tier 5 crit bonuses for all three trees,
and have some sort of (+Barbarian Class level melee power into a rage feature).

That way the Devs can either/or/both with it.


I put the trees by DrWily on page one, nicely done., thank you!!!

rather see PRR increase for a barb through enhancements and armor. i think a better fit for your idea would be increasing a barbs DR rather via rage, on getting hit as your health lowers or enhancements/cores that can boost DR.

autochthon
08-14-2014, 07:41 PM
rather see PRR increase for a barb through enhancements and armor. i think a better fit for your idea would be increasing a barbs DR rather via rage, on getting hit as your health lowers or enhancements/cores that can boost DR.

For instance: While Raging gain X PRR and MRR

or

Gain X PRR for each 1% life you are missing

Personally I'd love for AC to actually MATTER to every class that can wear real armor. Or every class period. Either way.

Silverleafeon
08-14-2014, 09:22 PM
At level 6, Barbarians should gain the "Manymelee" active feat, which for 20 seconds every 2 minutes causes your melee attacks to do 2 attacks. Improves to 3 and 4 attacks at class levels 11 and 16.

I'm only 50% joking.

Lol, interesting indeed.


+30 melee power =/= 30% DPS. That's less but it's a good starting point though at tier 1 would be too much powerful for multiclassing purpose. I'd rather include melee power directly into rage/greater rage/mighty rage class features in order to enforce staying pure. In this way multi classes that seek melee power will be disappointed by the no-casting disadvantage in rage. It should be 5 rage/15 greater rage/30 mighty rage.

I like the thought of using rage / greater rage / mighty rage instead of per barbarian level.
Good idea, will try to work that into a tree, say Ravager tier 1 so all three trees can grab it.
Since we might put 20 of the melee power with the crit bonus, the numbers here might be

5 rage/10 greater rage/20 mighty rage

Would that work?


In this thread, I feel as if I am one of the only people that have read the Swashbuckler and proposed Paladin enhancements. On top of all that you mentioned I would like to paste in one of the Swashbuckler tier 5 enhancement called Exploit Weaknesses.
Exploit Weaknesses: While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically hit.

Now that is a tier 5 enchantment!

Thank you, I will continue to gently press the Devs for action for Barbarians, and although I am not sure about solutions, I am concerned that Bards and Palladians have raised the bar for Barbarians. I have mentioned this thread several times where they can see it, so they are aware of it. They are very, very busy right now with this update.


What's the point of the AC reductions? For power rage, a penalty of -1/-2/-3 isn't relevant. Even a penalty of -5/-10/-15 might not be considered relevant to a barbarian, isn't there AC equivalent to zero against any mob on any content of significance?

Same for cracking attack. Why would I care about reducing mob AC at all (I thought we always hit?). Even if I cared, under the new AC system, I would need the reductions to be more significant, for example -3/-6/-9 with no save or -5/-10/-15 keeping the fort save.

Summary suggestion: replace AC with something relevant or make the AC reductions more significant

At first I did not like Cackling attack, but eventually just left it and reduced cool down later on.
I agree it could some help.
I cannot believe that attack costs hp.

Cracking, the formation of a fracture or partial fracture in a solid material


How about this instead?
Cracking Attack: Melee Attack: Deals +1/+2/+3[W] extra damage. On hit, blindness for 3/6/12 seconds, no save. Cooldown: 8 seconds.

Hmm...interesting, a little too powerful, but much better than the current 30 second cool down that costs 5 hp and very little.
But if it did cost hp, then likely, maybe a little less long on the blindness?

We do need to change that.



http://ddowiki.com/page/Grazing_hit

You deal damage 95% of the time, hit some amount of the time that you're not told, and miss 5% of the time. The AC system needs as much work as heavy armor to be made anything close to reasonable or relevant though.

Perhaps we just try to move away from attacks that reduce ac and the like?


Just a general question about this project. I look at the trees as Frenzied should be the clear top DPS tree and the others as support trees with elements that add to the quality of life for FB or trees just for fun with some interesting abilities. Is this the way others see the trees?

A good question, what is everyone's viewpoint about the three trees?
What do you want them to be like?


In any class focusing on one tree should make you viable in your class role. Any tree should be viable for doing what barbarians do, rather tahn one being a "this is the tree to use" and the others being "supporting" elements to the tree.

The fact that DDO hasn't been all that effective at managing it is why capstones in general suck.

FB should be about speed and AoE (that's the theme I see).
Occult Slayer should put emphasis on non-rage mechanics.
Ravager should be the rage tree.

Going for the capstone should be viable for all of them. One tree shouldn't be "best DPS". You can reach the same goal using different mechanics across the trees.

Thanks, anyone else?


we already have that, its called haste boost, double strike boost.

Nods, do we need more of that in the barbarian trees anywhere?


the numbers i have seen about exploit weakness say that its only about 10% extra chance to crit, but it is still an incredibly silly thing. bards would have to do such incredibly weak damage (numerical value per any non crit) for this to make sense to me.

It seems like a powerful thing to me.
I think I copied a version of it into one of the early trees but it was nixed out.



giving paladins an almost permanent +1 range and multi is also a really straight up stupid thing to do imo. want to trade being alive for great dps on a melee? play a barb. want to stay alive easily on a melee at the price of dps (except for in content with undead/outsiders, like back in the day...), play a paladin. now pallies will have the best of both worlds, be stepping on fighters and barbarians turf, and the lazy unoriginal way of buffing classes continues. ill keep saying it, if this doesnt stop one day auto crits will be the norm except on 1s.

so, this is why i am against adding more of these effects into the game. because this is turning into an all out arms race that has a pretty obvious and pretty small limit to how far it can go before even fanbois will be unable to deny that it makes no sense. that said i like the idea of +6 or whatever crit multiplier on 19-20s for barbs.

even if barbs get a pass giving them what they need, including enhanced crit profile, between that and the pally and bard op-ification, and the fact that dagger rogues, and staff users all have an automatic great crit profile, and the fact that ranged power wont be coming for some time, this leaves fighters who arent half monk and rangers who arent monkchers totally face down in the mud. keen edge used to be a top end enhancement...now its bottom of the barrel... and rangers? they have nothing. its just sad.

I think we were painting ourselves into a corner and Sev has come up with melee power to help DDO out.

There is so much to do, ranged power will be dealt with in another update unless things change.
Blitz will remain as is for now for ranged, and hopefully later on all will be worked out in a good way.


i think there are many solid ideas being thrown out, too many. imo the conversation is losing focus and changing the suggested trees so frequently will make it harder to have a clear direction for this. agree about identifying what we want each tree to be mostly about, and what sort of bonuses will be in each of them, and the barb class itself, before moving forward.
not trying to belittle the effort though.

Sorry, I got behind on the replying and reading, been a bit busy in the Player's Council the last little bit.
Now you folks have two new threads to read ~ Defender Pally and Defender Figther tree fixes.

If I have missed things, please bring them up again, thanks.
And be aware I have let the Devs know this thread is out here, already.


The core concept was, in my opinion, for Bards to go for a spellpower crit build riding on the massive number of bonus damage in the SB tree that relies on crits. Of course the way it works means it ends up being a very small damage boost so it looks great on paper but isn't excessive in practice.

One major issue is how heavily crit is stressed. There should be options that don;t rely on crit (and crit multiplier) to deal all your damage.

Edit: Ideally Paladin should have either/or, and Barb should have access to either/or as well. Frontline HP sack melee kinda screams "target me"

I agree.

Crits are worthless vs some foes.
Melee power is a straight forward pure boost without damage spikes, so it is ingenious.
It also affects that flaming burst on your sword as well, making it do extra fire damage which is nice.


Depends on a lot of things. If teh natural range is 19-20/x2 you're looking at going from +10% damage to (10% crit 200% multiplier) to ~30% damage (10% crit, 400% multiplier) roughly +20% relative damage assuming nothing is modifying your threat or multipliers already.

Thanks for the numbers, I will use this to plug +20 melee power to the crit bonuses in tier 5 directly.
Then plug in the other melee power to rage, greater rage, and supreme rage.


With the new Single Weapon Fighting feats they are dishing out as much or more damage as THF. Recently someone on the forums made a YouTube video of their character fighting with their choice 2 handed weapon and another video with a SWF spec'd character fighting the same mob and the SWF spec killed the mob faster.

Nods, SWF is professed to be a bit over the top.


That may have a lot to do with the number of procs and scaling options available to a bard too. Rather than Exploit Weakness.

Hmm...I know people love the new bards, I am quite happy about that.
And now the Barbarians can shout "me next please", hopefully we can get some attention here.


I don't expect the devs to actually use these ideas we are throwing out there, instead use the essence of what we are requesting and deploy their own version of what we roll up. I mean does anyone believe the devs are going to take enhancements we deem as worthy and roll them into the Barb trees? Not being sarcastic, just want to know if that is the expectation.

Well, I did post a LOT of various trees for the bards and press politely but hard for bard love,
and you are right none of my trees went in forward as presented. However, pieces of them did get in, and the Devs took others and came up with better. So, it did help, and yes I more expect them to read thru things here and look at what YOU folks have to say.

Silverleafeon
08-14-2014, 09:54 PM
A solid idea/mechanic is solid whether it was crowd sourced or not. Realistically can't expect it, but I've seen stranger.

Lol, I have been surprised in a nice way sometimes...


Absolutely, I'm not even sure it was a Bard that did it, but I am sure they were using SWF feats.

Those SWF do hit hard.


Here's a thought:

Frenzied Berserker: TWF/rager tree
Ravager: THF/Rager Tree
Occult Slayer: Non-rage DPS w/ anti-magic (SWF compatible by nature)

Don't they sound nice? Three trees and three weapon styles. Make them crossover firendly for splashes and they'd be nice. Not that I'm trying to completely derail the concepts presented, just providing another way to define the trees.

Thanks, anyone else, the more we can imput on what direction these trees should move, the better.
We do have a group of devs that listen.


Not to sound too jerky but, Frenzied should be THF and the rest is meh. OC's use of anti-magic works well and is desirable to some extent though. If any tree were to be chopped I'd say cut Ravager. I only use the Rage boosting enhancements from Ravager and only because it makes me. I'd say if someone wants to do TWF they be an Elf Ranger or puny Human. I've never seen someone using 2 handed weapons in Ranger and I've never seen someone using 2 weapon fighting be a Barb. I could see myself using Ravager to try it and see, but nothing interests me in this tree except moving all the kill yourself quirks from Frenzied to Ravager. Ravager seems like the perfect tree for hurting yourself to use your abilities. I don't know why DDO ever associated kill yourself to use mediocre abilities with the Barbarian. I've never played an AD&D campaign or any other D&D game where that happens. Did the thinking go something like this; hmm, Barbs have the highest HP dice, lets make them damage themselves so having a D12 for HP means nothing. Ya, that sounds like a great idea! I'm guessing that's how the brain storming session went at DDO HQ.

Sad that the class that cannot heal, is expect to hurt itself.
Ravager does need some love and focus.


Sure, anything is better than an AC effect. Even with a save would be a major improvement.

Nods, yes lets us improve that next round.


I think to really push barb dps where it belongs, they need boosts in glancing blows to = twf's offhand. So at the top end, a barb is doing 100% damage in glancing blows as well as normal blows. Perhaps a 25% chance to proc effect. However I really think the whole glancing system needs to be changed so it is proccing everything like normal, the glancing blow damage reduction is just a flat percentage reduction.

For melee power, I do like the idea of barb's being one of the only classes to get some in the heroic levels.

Ok, I will bring this up now and later, and hope to press thru.


http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Heart_of_Invulnerability_(3.5e_Feat)

AH-HA! now do the math to translate better to DDO and there is your increased DR while raging.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Vigorous_Rage_(3.5e_Feat)

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Improved_Vigorous_Rage_(3.5e_Feat)

YES! finally my searchfu came through! <insert DDO math formula to make it work> and voila!

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Dragon_(3.5e_Feat)

sounds similar to whats coming with MRR, but I thought this was nice for better survivability.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Heart_of_Fury_(3.5e_Feat)

heres something that sounds like Deathless Frenzy

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Cunning_Rage_(3.5e_Feat)

thought this was interesting.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Chaotic_Rage

for the guy that wanted to have Aligned Weapons in the tree he built.

Thank you for your searches, I will read thru those.


Ya, I thought about that one, it's just too small a group of mobs to be useful.

The proposed Paladin tree at core 5 gets All weapons you wield are considered Good for DR considerations. I wanted something along these lines for our core 5 perk, obviously not good but something with a broad base.

We definitely could do more for the OS tree in that way.


These all look like a good base to build off of. I like the healing ones. I'd take the fortitude as reflex save one too, but I'd prefer str mod to reflex though.

Wow, I definitely need to read them now.


There are fundamentally two barbarian fantasies. One is your vision, the other is a TWF vision. It's just not generally supported in DnD for reasons related to the developers more than anything else.

Common thematics in barbarian elemts across the entire genre include self damage, 2H or DW (axes usually), light armors, and an inspiring/intimidating presence to go with their rage. I don;t see a reason why all these elements can't have a home.

Essentially you're pushing to have one tree be your central vision. Totally fine. But you're mixing thematics with mechanics, and assuming that your tree should be the "best" DPS tree because it's the one you like. I'd rather see a more balanced approach.

Make Ravager the new Frenzied Berserker (thematically). Make (TWF possibly) barbarian the berserker tree, about speed and sacrificing HP to deal massive damage. Make Occult tslayer a balance between raging and more disciplined approach. Everybody wins, barbarians have options for DPS style, and you add a thematic element missing form DDO.


Thanks for your views on the trees, anyone else?


Oh by the way, I guess its sort of public now, the upcoming Vanguard offensive shield tree that Sev is working on and has mention more than once.

I put in a big plug to offer it to be added to the barbarian trees, but that attempt is not getting much support from others.
At least I put it into Sev's head to consider it for barbarians too.


I prefer to have all trees support 2HF and 2WF. it opens up a lot more build possibilities and I don't see any reason why barbarian must be 2HF. my 2WF pure dwarf Ravager has really good dps, but could do a lot more if there was a little more support.

DDO says they already do support it, but its obvious they don't https://www.ddo.com/en/barbarian-101

A barbarian fights well with a single large weapon or when wielding a weapon in each hand.

Nods, I'll leave in the support in Frenzy, and keep the OS tree to apply to both main and off hand.


The reasoning went like this:
In D&D 3.5, the Frenzied Berserker prestige class has high damage, but a 5% chance to kill a teammate in every fight. We can't really have players kill teammates, so that effect will target yourself instead. And instead of a small chance of total death, let's remove that randomness and just make it progressive damage.

Lol, for awhile my Divine Wrath with Colors of the Queen did occasionally kill party members....

It is funny, you would actually assume that wild man swinging weapons madly would hit party members.


I don't really see trees in other classes as being balanced, each one serves a specific purpose. You don't see Assassin stuff mixed in with the Mechanic tree just like you don't see Archer stuff mixed in with Tempest. There are too many trees for Barbarian forcing us to spread our points out unnecessarily. I see a clear difference and need in OS and FB, Ravager is just kind of.... there.

To be perfectly honest I would have no problem playing Ravager if everything in Frenzied was moved to Ravager. I have no sentimental attachment to FB at all other than it seems to have the best DPS options. My fantasy Barbarian is Half-Orc, 2 handed, and max strength, so this is what I play. Myself as I'm guessing pretty much everyone that plays a Barb nowadays is doing it because they have some vision of "their" Barbarian. I don't think it's because of any advantages the class offers. I only have 1 toon (several mules though) that I play and it's a Barb. Sure a fighter may be easier (never played a Figher) but they don't represent me as well as a Barb.

Thanks anyone else have a perspective on their vision of the barbarian trees?


Ya, well, that's the kind of stuff you get when you move to 3.x. Never heard of that but it wouldn't surprise me if it was in 3.x. Funny how all the trees don't support this theory though. I mean you would think the tree that is all about cutting, mutilating, scarring and pain would have self damage to activate these enhancements.

It's kind of funny though, because for a while now I've wanted to propose to devs that because the Barbarian becomes so enraged and has such disdain for magic that if a warforged/bladeforged is partied with a raging Barb there is a 1% chance for the Barb to "accidently" strike the robot from time to time. I would totally support that.

LOL, indeed...



Minotaur's use TWF and they definitely rage. Dwarves would be split between all three fighting styles. Elves/Halflings would definitely go TWF or SWF raging. Giants, Ogres, and Orcs use TWF/SWF and rage. The problem is the player base has pigeonholed Barbarians into a 2HF club and refuses to accept that as a martial class, Barbarians should be lethal in all three spheres.

On a side note, if they were to implement wresting/hand-to-hand combat into DDO, Barbarian would be a great fit. Maybe I watched to much WWE when I was a kid. Who wouldn't want to throw a (Insert NPC here) or two off the ledge to their doom :) Or crush their skull in with a well placed boot to the head after tripping them? Oh, if DDO would implement wrestling :)

Well said, oh we actually started posting barbarian pictures in the Player's Council forums on one of Sev's threads discussing what sort of weapons would a barbarian be wielding. Yes, it was a bit of a thread derail off topic, but we got back on track after awhile...

Love the idea of wrestling, not sure it would implement easy, but it is a big combat section in pen and paper D&D.


It would be nice if they'd allow non-Monk characters to train Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat, and then get a different attack animation with it.

Hmm...


Barbarian Rage increases melee power: not sure on the amount but 1-5 points for each point of strength increase.

Re-arrange the order of Damage soaking ability: Currently I think it goes damage-dr then apply prr, have it go damage - prr then apply dr
Barbarian DR stack with other sources

While I would like to see Healing amp as well, I hate to see something overused and pally and monk already have it. A rapid recovery effect like the bard song that is always on for constant healing but lacking in burst.

Thanks, I will look at comparing the Rage/Greater Rage/Supreme rage melee power with the str gained.

Good point to bring up, DR should be last. As energy resistance should be after absorption.


For balance purpose, Kensai and Tempests should be better at TWF: they get flat modifiers to damage which are best with shield/two weapon fighting with high hit frequency.

Strength, which is the best asset of the barbarians, it's best with THF and SWF (applies higher star mod.).

When I wrote the 3 trees proposed on first page of the thread I tried to explain these concepts:

Occult Slayer: defensive/anti-caster skills and healing ones.
Ravager: high single target DPS that gets higher by exploiting debilitating/CC effects. No direct approach but one that gets stronger with time. CC comes from fear effects, pain effects.
Frenzied: high AOE DPS and high AOE threat, coupled with trash mobs tanking skills and mobility. Frenzied loves the heat of the battle and prefer direct approach: the more foes the better.


These concepts should be coupled with higher raw damage: maybe simply buffing barbarians core class feature: the barbarian rage. More strength bonus and melee power would be the ways to go.

Thank you, very helpful. Does anyone else have perspective on what direction the trees should go.


i dont think melee power should be in a heroic class, unless it is a very small amount given only at 20th level, because lets be honest any level 20 ability should be balanced for epics not heroics. but this would have to be carefully done because otherwise it could cause a whole new trend of op-flation for the devs to use in "balancing" things.

as for whether these suggestions are used or not, i hope the devs at least read it, and take note of the effort and care that went into them. if these suggestions even inspire them to do their jobs well, thats a win for me.

and something that occurred to me that i would like to vehemently say no to before i see it suggested by someone else (unless someone did and i missed it), no to twf two two handed weapons.

I melee power will be sparingly, but barbarians are most likely to get it if any do.

Varg and Sev are quite the forum reader. I can tell.

As a side note, one them has read thru my Warmage project and lifted two brainstormed ideas into a possible project of their own. So it is likely that they are aware of this thread when they have time. We can hope, but I cannot guarantee anything except this will be presented where they cannot miss it when we are done.

Silverleafeon
08-14-2014, 10:25 PM
i like your vision of the trees.

I do too.


That's the point. Each of those trees accomplishes a specific goal. Now DDO is pretty bad at balancing trees in some spots, but when trees are attempting the same fundamental purpose they tend to work out.

Mechanic is ranged DPS with skillmonkey, Assassin is melee DPS with instant kill. Both are viable primary trees as far as I can tell. Same for Ranger's melee and ranged (ranged just sucks in DDO for certain reasons). There's no reason Barb can't have a tree for "each" melee loadout, make everybody happy and balance them all well enough for them all to be viable. Limited splashability so you have something to do with your AP in each tree of course. When your options are "melee DPS x3" they should all be viable rather than one of them being viable and the others just being there.

I agree.


I understand what you are saying about balance, meaning TWF in one tree and THF for another. I'm fine with that, I always liked TWF when I played Ranger and could see myself doing that as a Barbarian at some point. This would give a purpose for Ravager (or Frenzied, I don't really care which tree THF lands in).


OK, I'll take the bait on this one just in case you are't trolling and being serious. I'm pretty sure Ranger is at the top of just about everyone's list for being nerfed, unless of course you are talking about Tempest. Even my friends that only play a ranged Ranger for dozens of lives say it's completely ridiculous. :)

Willing to listen to any suggestion on the subject, as I said before its melee power this update, ranged is being left alone except to patch blitz to remain as is.

One of my friends in the PC suggested a few months ago, let us BUFF melee first before even considering anything else.
Thankfully, Sev is taking that approach. Will press for Barbarian love soon as much as I can.


It was my understanding that specific mechanics mean you've only got one real build. Which sucks. Nevermind that "monks" do it better (and really 10k stars is a monk build more than anything else).

Lol, I like Druids myself...


YES! YES! We must have this. This is a great idea. Increase the size of the Half-Orc by about .25, put a min 22 strength requirement on 2THWF and then pickup 2 Cleavers baby. Let the carnage begin. That is a great idea! Thank you sir. :)

Number one broken build in D&D ~ MONKEY GRIP ~ epic feat ~ if you want to drive a DM crazy start here!!


TWF Frenzied Berserker Tree

L20 Core: Barbarian Ferocity
Passives
+2 Str, +2 Con
+2 Str, +2 Con while raging
You treat all two handed weapons as one handed weapons, you may wield a two handed weapon in each hand. Treat all one handed weapons as light weapons.

Because you want to make things dead.

Edit: Ravager would have double weapon dice as tehir level 20 core >.>

Edit 2: Earlier cores would be TWF and AS bonuses (with some rage bonuses in cores and trees)

~~and thus Monkey Grip starts and DDO will never be the same~~~

But why wield two cleavers when you can use four?

We really need TriKeen Barbarian with monkey grip ~ four armed race!
Woot!

Think of all the dragon runs to make your weapons, lol...



what about a Barbarian capstone such as this:

Capstone "Remorseless" level requirement 20.
As the Barbarian's lust for carnage and death grow to even greater heights, while enraged every time the Barbarian is damaged in combat he loses 1 AC and gains +2 damage, cannot have more damage modifiers than total AC. or something like this? so then DDR would play a greater role in the Barbarian class.. not like AC amounts to a hill of beans now.. but the barbarian would be gaining increased dmg potential as he gets beaten on.. hopefully the PPR/DR.

Interesting...


its not bait, ranged is generally considered weak in ddo.

before monkchers (monkchers are what people want to nerf, not ranged combat, a nerf to ranged outside of monkchers would mean it going from existing to not existing), ranged combat was balanced because you couldnt achieve ridiculous dps outside of many shot which is on a 2 minute cd. when you only have many shot and your dps outside of it is bad, you feel very weak. a good ranger could post solid numbers, but for 9/10 players they just didnt have enough gear/pastlives to contribute.

the reason why this is balanced is because not having to melee is (despite the fact that it is mentioned frequently) an underrated defense, probably because there is no statistic for it.

monkchers break this balance not because ranged combat is powerful now, but because that specific class split exploits one dubious "feature" after another, and some unintended (probably) synergies that result from those "features."

the only real issue i see with ranged (outside of monkchers) is the mindset of players who play them. everybody wants their favorite class to be top dps (see the sickening paladin dev diary...its a tank frickin class...) regardless of whether that even remotely makes sense in the game.

I agree, ranged has been weak in the past, and I will very mindful of that in future.
The spikes in ranged damage are what concern me, it would be nice to smooth out the spikes without lowering overall damage.
But that would take some thought, and as I said before its melee love right now.

Sev still has stuff hidden that I cannot talk about yet.


There's nothing wrong with a paladin being able to deal DPS if they give up some of tehir paladin-y tankiness for it. Also keep in mind that "DPS" is more or less needed for solo play, which is why every single class in Wow has a DPS spec.

Nods, that was my main complaint about pallys.


The purposed changes to the frenzied berserker tree look nice... Overall redoing it to where they can heal themselves in some manner while raged, less feat requirements for top tier stuff, and the new frenzy... Looks like it might make them more fun to play.

Thank you, hopefully we can get some love soon.


Noted, updated FB for something similar to this.

Great job, it is now featured on page one of this thread.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!



Actually TWF benefits roughly equally as much from Strength as THF. It just happens that the only TWF trees in the game are Dex trees, and that the one tree which is possibly flexible (Kensei) favors high hit frequency over larger hits.

Nods...Should we find a way to place TWF in Ravager?
We have a bit in Frenzy.


The relative gains for TWF from melee power aren't any more than they are for any other weapon loadout.

Thank you, that was a error of math on my part.


20 Melee Power will increase TWF DPS by 20%, SWF DPS by 20%, THF DPS by 20%, or S&B DPS by 20%.

+20% damage is always +20% damage. It doesn't magically become more effective because you're doing more hits. Whether or not TWF is better than THF in the first place is the only question, and that's legitimate. But it's not something that you have to leave out loadout support simply because you're including it.

I agree.


An Anger Bar doesn't really sound very PnP, more like MMO.

Aye, and it would be hard to code, I bet with little benefit.
Too good, and it would be abused, too little and player wonder why we bothered.


Mana bars aren't very PnP either. Or Ki bars. Or random stacking mechanics (Occult Slayer and Kensei). Nor is being centered particularly PnP (though it does emulate a PnP mechanic). Or how about Prestige Enhancements entirely? Because tehy are about as anti-PnP as anything in this game.

Plenty of stuff in DDO has diverged form PnP and DDO is better for it as an MMO. As long as the core stays in the right place everything is good.

Keeping the spirit as close as we can, even if we use Unearthed Arcana rules at times is important.


Since we are allowed to cast spells in a live action game as much as we want and only restricted by cool down and a man pool, there has to be a way to limit casters in fights. The same thing for monks and ki. Their only restriction would be a cool down or they could endlessly use all their abilities at no sacrifice.

Barbarian power has always come from fighting hand to hand with their weapon and their power can grow from hitting targets or raging gaining temporary power. Some kind of bar that is used for additional power is not necessary. Barb power is supposed to be just raw fighting power.

Nods, we will bury the anger bar now and walk away from it.
Thanks.

Silverleafeon
08-14-2014, 10:36 PM
Actually CD's do an exceptionally good job of gating caster power output without the need for a mana source. People underestimate how much global CDs and individual CDs mean in a game. It's not like "melee" classes are restricted in how many times they can use their special attacks, and tehy're hardly broken.

Or they could have just kept the vancian system and tweaked it to be functional in a real-time environment. Side effect being that Clerics/Wizards would be a bit more powerful than they currently are I suppose.

Not saying that Barbs need a rage bar. Just that if your only counter-argument is "not very PnP" it's not much of a counter-argument. I personally don't think they explicitly need a rage bar, but more mechanics to make them actually interactive wouldn't hurt.

I think that was the general idea of something to work with, as barbarians are locked out of so much when they rage.
They cannot even use clickies.

But they can drink potions, perhaps the wilderness lore / potions theme should be expanded.

I think a Dev started the weapon's bond thing to create something new to work with, but time ran out and its really not playtested enough to have the math work. I really would like to see the weapon bond used for more, and the bonuses easier to obtain at lower weapon bond totals.


THIS ALL SEEMS SO GOOD TO ME THAT I'M GOING TO START CRYING......

I have serious psychological problems.
Although I have other toons I am obsessed with my Barbarian.
The first character I created and my favorite.

I haven't played DDO for 7 months.
I gave up after I realized how OBSOLETE my barbarian was. (And after giving up on trying to get the SOS shard after 190+ runs on EH and a few on EE.)
Yes I could kill 1, 2 maybe 3 mobs in EE if I was careful and lucky.
I had some EE completions but my contribution to the victory was insignificant.

I know that I don't only speak for myself when I say that it is needed that the barbarians must find again their role in a party.


-So DrWily and all you guys that are working on this thank you so much!



I only have a few things to say:

1. Try to get Barbarian PPR high, sky high. This will reduce the healing requirement and maybe allow us to risk attacking even 2 mobs (!!!!!) at the same time on EE.
I don't expect and I don't want to see a self healing barbarian soloing everything... If I wanted solo action there are much better games. (I don't mean that I don't like the sustainability these healing enhancements and the potion provide! I love it!)

2 Barbarians need more strength.
Even if it is not the most important DPS factor it feels stupid to me having bards and fighters walking around with 90+ strength (buffed).
With the sacrifices I made to get more DPS and survivability I could hardly get my Barb up to 90.

3 MORE dps! really....!
We have all accepted that a monk/something/something can throw 5 x 250 or 5 x 300 damage punches in 1 second while stunning and immobilizing the enemy.
By the time a Barb swings his axe the mob is already dead....
We have accepted archers doing 5000-6000 dmg in 1 second.
So why not having the game's most brutal characters deal 1000+ damage on a regular hit? ( Always talking about end game stats and numbers.)
Yes it seems to much when you look at it but if you look at the whole picture is it really ???

4 2HF like it or not is what Barbarians are notorious for.
They like big scary looking weapons with sharp blades.
Yes a barbarian should be able to take a Quarterstuff and break your head with it better than any other char.
BUT they should lack the finesse and the technique to use it effectively in a fight.
The same principle applied to 2WF is that yes a Barbarian can hit harder that a fighter or anybody using the same 2 weapons but he can not be more of an expert in using them than a fighter, or a rogue or...
Anyway, my point is that the idea of the barbarian, a strong, angry, durable, self-trained and uncontrollable when fighting character isn't the incarnation of combat expertise and fighting skills, which are required for a 2WF melee.
That is my opinion but it is supported by the reputation and the barbarian image that most kids and adults carry in their minds.

I want to say once more thank you and I support your work 100%, I trust your decisions even if I could disagree on some points.
I just wrote down my point of view hoping that I have something to contribute towards your/our goal.
I hope the developers will really look into this topic and give us back the Barbarians as true Barbarians!

GREAT POST. THANKS!!!


I think you're weirding out on us Silver.

An anger bar? Really?

And why exactly? Is there some proposed enhancement that I missed where you do more damage the angrier that you get? Last I knew you were either raged (fill in type) or not. I'm okay with that set-up, I don't really think we need a little pink bar showing us how angry we are.

Sorry, I can't help being a d**k, it's my only special ability. ;D

Secondly,
Really don't see the need to nerf what TWF things that you've put in.

THF will always benefit more from barb than TWF and that's okay. If Turbine wants to do things to adjust the balance between THF/TWF/SWF that's fine. Addressing it further in an enhancement tree just makes the relationship needlessly complicated.

Btw, I do rather like what you've done in making the class somewhat more accessible to TWF toons. As I said before, the class will always be more THF friendly, but being able to eke out a bit more benefit for a TWF.
(Can you tell that I mostly play TWF toons?)

Nods, taken care of, thank you.

Lol, a pink bar, lol...


Why is it people think a barb is inherently going to be better at THF. Short of there being more enhancements for it that isn't actually the case, other than an exceptionally marginal benefit from the .1 more strength modifier they get to apply to the 2H weapon per swing vs an 80% procrate off hand

Edit: Sorry, there's also (0.5 Attribute Mod)*Doublestrike chance. Though that's depressed by potential offhand procs and the like as well.

Some of the PC members found a lot of pictures of Barbarians wielding all sorts of weapons, but we were derailing a thread, thanks to yours truly here.


rather see PRR increase for a barb through enhancements and armor. i think a better fit for your idea would be increasing a barbs DR rather via rage, on getting hit as your health lowers or enhancements/cores that can boost DR.

Aye


For instance: While Raging gain X PRR and MRR

or

Gain X PRR for each 1% life you are missing

Personally I'd love for AC to actually MATTER to every class that can wear real armor. Or every class period. Either way.

Yes.

the_one_dwarfforged
08-15-2014, 12:01 AM
something that occurred to me regarding barbarian survivability. more cc/interrupts/debuffs. barbarians are sort of a wrecking ball of doom right? why not reflect that by increasing their ability to weaken or expose their enemy, or prevent damage by preventing the enemy from attacking (something that shield bearer or vanguard is apparently getting, and "tactics" is sort of supposed to be a fighter thing, but there is no way a pure fighter will have more strength than a similarly geared pure barb, and the few (+7 (+1+1+2 str = +2, +3 enhancement, +2 capstone) on a pure, assuming all else is equal) extra dc points may not make up the difference, so why limit that already limited niche aspect of meleeing to one class/style/enhancement tree? also it would go a long way to increasing survivability and total effectiveness while not changing barb rages limitations at all).

also for the record i like the idea of a rage bar (used to play warrior in wow, gotta love the rage bar...) and agree that it could be used to give the class a more interactive feel by having a resource to manage other than just keeping cleaves on cd and left clicking. although i also agree with the other side that it is basically unnecessary, but i still think it could make the class more fun for people who enjoy having abilities to use (before cleaves were a thing, melees were a lot less interesting).

Psiandron
08-15-2014, 10:47 AM
I have to say that I do really like the idea that someone (sorry, too lazy to search it out) proposed about putting something like Exploit Weakness in the Barbarian trees. Just because someone is using their rage to fuel their fighting power doesn't necessarily mean that they can't be a cagey fighter as well.

I hate to bring TV into this but I really liked the Vikings series on the History Channel. The series is really good overall blah, blah, blah... During the combat scenes it is obviously impossible not to think about it in terms of the barbarian class and while the characters use their ferocity to fuel their own fighting and the fear of their enemies they also are quite clever in applying tactics to their fights and some are even capable of fitting the fights into an overall strategy.

Anyway, as an example, a twfing barb hooking the shield of an opponent with his handaxe and pulling the shield wide and killing with the handaxe in his other hand.

So a big thumbs up to some sort of Exploit Weakness enhancement imo.


Silver has asked a lot in this thread about people's concepts of the trees and the class in general and there have been a number of responses. I've kind of shied away from that, but here goes.

I think that there is general agreement that the tree should have some sort of obvious aim or theme to keep them cohesive and I couldn't agree more. In fact, the best way to build a tree is probably to devise the main theme/aim and work from there, rather like writing a story.

OS is pretty straightforward, the theme is right there in the name, so no worries there.

The problem for me is what is really the difference between the FB and the Ravager. To me they seem to be two approaches to the same concept. It seems mostly like "we came up with all these ideas for Frenzied Berserker, but we can't fit them all in one tree so..."

autochthon
08-15-2014, 11:18 AM
I could get behind ravager tree being all about taking advantage of big heavy weapons and careening into combat. Breaking armor, crippling enemies, throwing around all these debuffs and stuns and things. You could work in stuff like fear effects, and maybe even some psychic damage (ie damage caused by being so afraid of the barbarian that you lose hit points).

Silverleafeon
08-16-2014, 08:15 PM
something that occurred to me regarding barbarian survivability. more cc/interrupts/debuffs. barbarians are sort of a wrecking ball of doom right? why not reflect that by increasing their ability to weaken or expose their enemy, or prevent damage by preventing the enemy from attacking (something that shield bearer or vanguard is apparently getting, and "tactics" is sort of supposed to be a fighter thing, but there is no way a pure fighter will have more strength than a similarly geared pure barb, and the few (+7 (+1+1+2 str = +2, +3 enhancement, +2 capstone) on a pure, assuming all else is equal) extra dc points may not make up the difference, so why limit that already limited niche aspect of meleeing to one class/style/enhancement tree? also it would go a long way to increasing survivability and total effectiveness while not changing barb rages limitations at all).

More combat tactics of one nature or another?
We could look at that for next round.

It would be nice to add a combat tactical feat to the ones already available.

I know one PC member presented a "Disarm combat tactics" designed to temporary reduce a foes overall DPS by XX% for YY seconds.



also for the record i like the idea of a rage bar (used to play warrior in wow, gotta love the rage bar...) and agree that it could be used to give the class a more interactive feel by having a resource to manage other than just keeping cleaves on cd and left clicking. although i also agree with the other side that it is basically unnecessary, but i still think it could make the class more fun for people who enjoy having abilities to use (before cleaves were a thing, melees were a lot less interesting).

I never played WoW, but a player did ask me to investigate some sort of extra for barbarians, some sort of resource that they could use for variety.


I have to say that I do really like the idea that someone (sorry, too lazy to search it out) proposed about putting something like Exploit Weakness in the Barbarian trees. Just because someone is using their rage to fuel their fighting power doesn't necessarily mean that they can't be a cagey fighter as well.

Nods and listens.



I hate to bring TV into this but I really liked the Vikings series on the History Channel. The series is really good overall blah, blah, blah... During the combat scenes it is obviously impossible not to think about it in terms of the barbarian class and while the characters use their ferocity to fuel their own fighting and the fear of their enemies they also are quite clever in applying tactics to their fights and some are even capable of fitting the fights into an overall strategy.

An excellent real life example.

Maybe we need to add sailing as a bonus barbarian skill boost



Anyway, as an example, a twfing barb hooking the shield of an opponent with his handaxe and pulling the shield wide and killing with the handaxe in his other hand.

Almost sounds like the disarm feat in a way?



So a big thumbs up to some sort of Exploit Weakness enhancement imo.


Noted, that option is slightly increasing in popularity now.



Silver has asked a lot in this thread about people's concepts of the trees and the class in general and there have been a number of responses. I've kind of shied away from that, but here goes.

I think that there is general agreement that the tree should have some sort of obvious aim or theme to keep them cohesive and I couldn't agree more. In fact, the best way to build a tree is probably to devise the main theme/aim and work from there, rather like writing a story.

OS is pretty straightforward, the theme is right there in the name, so no worries there.

The problem for me is what is really the difference between the FB and the Ravager. To me they seem to be two approaches to the same concept. It seems mostly like "we came up with all these ideas for Frenzied Berserker, but we can't fit them all in one tree so..."

I really appreciate that, I am excited with hope that maybe we can get the Devs to focus on a Barbarian fix.
You folks enthusiasm for the subject is surely helping out.


I could get behind ravager tree being all about taking advantage of big heavy weapons and careening into combat. Breaking armor, crippling enemies, throwing around all these debuffs and stuns and things. You could work in stuff like fear effects, and maybe even some psychic damage (ie damage caused by being so afraid of the barbarian that you lose hit points).

I wonder if we could get a Bull Rush type ability somewhere, that would be cool?

autochthon
08-16-2014, 08:52 PM
I wonder if we could get a Bull Rush type ability somewhere, that would be cool?Yes <3 charge attacks. Also a minotaur iconic race focused on bull rushing.

I can dream.

Silverleafeon
08-16-2014, 09:19 PM
Yes <3 charge attacks. Also a minotaur iconic race focused on bull rushing.

I can dream.

Putting that on the wish list, there is a fairly good chance we might can get that one.
Maybe...

the_one_dwarfforged
08-17-2014, 01:25 AM
i know i started it but, i dont want the whole tactics for barbs thing to go too far without mentioning fighters need a lotta that love too. i guess its not really a barb thing but could roll out with the barb update but...
rework tactical dcs to not require divine might, add new tactical feats, some light support for this in barb trees.

like to see help in this area for barbs but dont want to screw over fighters...

Zerkul
08-17-2014, 04:47 AM
Reading of this anger bar reminded me of Unstoppable Feature of the Greatweapon Fighter in NWO: they get a bar that it's filled by taking damage (or by doing damage as well if a class feature is selected), when it's filled you activate it and gain % DR + temporary immunity to CC effects and if you were CCed you immediately free yourself and keep fighting. While Unstoppable also you attack faster an do slightly less damage (overall DPS increases).

Psiandron
08-17-2014, 12:07 PM
i know i started it but, i dont want the whole tactics for barbs thing to go too far without mentioning fighters need a lotta that love too. i guess its not really a barb thing but could roll out with the barb update but...
rework tactical dcs to not require divine might, add new tactical feats, some light support for this in barb trees.

like to see help in this area for barbs but dont want to screw over fighters...

I think that after the new bard enhancements and the coming pally and defender enhancements and soonish, barbarian and vanguard enhancements there is probably going to have to at least be some tweaking of the Kensei enhancements and perhaps a bit of general buffing of the fighter class. So, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Qhualor
08-17-2014, 12:20 PM
i know i started it but, i dont want the whole tactics for barbs thing to go too far without mentioning fighters need a lotta that love too. i guess its not really a barb thing but could roll out with the barb update but...
rework tactical dcs to not require divine might, add new tactical feats, some light support for this in barb trees.

like to see help in this area for barbs but dont want to screw over fighters...

what tactical DCs require DM? unless im playing a pally, my pure builds have never needed DM.

autochthon
08-17-2014, 01:28 PM
what tactical DCs require DM? unless im playing a pally, my pure builds have never needed DM.

"Rewuire" is a bit of minor hyperbole but DM makes tactical feats significantly better due to the essentially binary nature of DCs.

DCs as a whole need some work. Significant work.

Qhualor
08-19-2014, 04:53 PM
I found the post I made back in March when this was discussed before.

when you are madstoned and try to use PS, a pop up says you cant cast spells while enraged. funny thing is, you CAN cast PS while you are barbarian raged. you cant cast madstone while barbarian raged, but it can proc while barbarian raged. madstone is supposed to be another form of rage that prevents spell casting just like rage does. for my barbs, that makes PS a useless ED choice because they use Madstone boots always. stupid to have PS as an enhancement choice in a destiny that is aimed for babarians if they cant cast it while madstoned. PS should be changed to another type of stacking rage.

today for better clarity...

went into a wilderness to test this and you cant use PS at all while under Madstone rage, Barb rage or under the proc of Madstone rage. tested each one on its own.

you can use the clicky to Madstone rage than use Barb rage. the Madstone will proc while under Barb rage.

you cannot use the Madstone rage clicky after you use Barb rage.

allowed myself to get hit for Madstone proc, than used clicky than used Barb rage.

allowed myself to get hit for Madstone proc, than used Barb rage, but could not use the clicky.

there should be a clean up to this and a better understanding to how these rages should work and actually classify them as SLA or not, what stacks and what doesn't. I assume the way Steelstar explained, PS is a spell and cant work while also using the spell Madstone rage? so that should mean when the rage spell is cast on you, you shouldn't be able to use Madstone boots clicky or PS on yourself either.

personally thing PS should work while under any rage effect. even the icon shows a barb shouting, not casting a spell.

ill bring this up in the barb discussion thread so it can be talked about and hope for better clarity if/when Sev gets around to the barbarian class.

Silverleafeon
08-19-2014, 07:48 PM
i know i started it but, i dont want the whole tactics for barbs thing to go too far without mentioning fighters need a lotta that love too. i guess its not really a barb thing but could roll out with the barb update but...
rework tactical dcs to not require divine might, add new tactical feats, some light support for this in barb trees.

like to see help in this area for barbs but dont want to screw over fighters...

I agree, fighters should be king of tactical feats.


Reading of this anger bar reminded me of Unstoppable Feature of the Greatweapon Fighter in NWO: they get a bar that it's filled by taking damage (or by doing damage as well if a class feature is selected), when it's filled you activate it and gain % DR + temporary immunity to CC effects and if you were CCed you immediately free yourself and keep fighting. While Unstoppable also you attack faster an do slightly less damage (overall DPS increases).

Interesting.


I think that after the new bard enhancements and the coming pally and defender enhancements and soonish, barbarian and vanguard enhancements there is probably going to have to at least be some tweaking of the Kensei enhancements and perhaps a bit of general buffing of the fighter class. So, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

There is melee power for starters to add to ??? fighter tree(s), etc...

Silverleafeon
08-19-2014, 07:51 PM
what tactical DCs require DM? unless im playing a pally, my pure builds have never needed DM.


"Rewuire" is a bit of minor hyperbole but DM makes tactical feats significantly better due to the essentially binary nature of DCs.

DCs as a whole need some work. Significant work.

Noted, and thank you.


I found the post I made back in March when this was discussed before.

when you are madstoned and try to use PS, a pop up says you cant cast spells while enraged. funny thing is, you CAN cast PS while you are barbarian raged. you cant cast madstone while barbarian raged, but it can proc while barbarian raged. madstone is supposed to be another form of rage that prevents spell casting just like rage does. for my barbs, that makes PS a useless ED choice because they use Madstone boots always. stupid to have PS as an enhancement choice in a destiny that is aimed for babarians if they cant cast it while madstoned. PS should be changed to another type of stacking rage.

today for better clarity...

went into a wilderness to test this and you cant use PS at all while under Madstone rage, Barb rage or under the proc of Madstone rage. tested each one on its own.

you can use the clicky to Madstone rage than use Barb rage. the Madstone will proc while under Barb rage.

you cannot use the Madstone rage clicky after you use Barb rage.

allowed myself to get hit for Madstone proc, than used clicky than used Barb rage.

allowed myself to get hit for Madstone proc, than used Barb rage, but could not use the clicky.

there should be a clean up to this and a better understanding to how these rages should work and actually classify them as SLA or not, what stacks and what doesn't. I assume the way Steelstar explained, PS is a spell and cant work while also using the spell Madstone rage? so that should mean when the rage spell is cast on you, you shouldn't be able to use Madstone boots clicky or PS on yourself either.

personally thing PS should work while under any rage effect. even the icon shows a barb shouting, not casting a spell.

ill bring this up in the barb discussion thread so it can be talked about and hope for better clarity if/when Sev gets around to the barbarian class.Thread is found here, and yes I see a chaotic organization of the various rages.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443861-primal-scream-is-not-working-with-madstone-rage

I believe at one time, the madstone boot were proposed to be alterated but Mad Floyd intervened.
There was quite the rage over the madstone rage not being rageous!

Silverleafeon
08-20-2014, 04:56 PM
Before I work on the next round of muddling up the barbarian trees, a few questions for everyone:


What 3 things do you most want to see changed about barbarians?

What 3 things have I missed or done wrong on more recent trees?

What 3 things do you most love about barbarians?


The possibility of some future barbarian love has just got a little brighter, and although I cannot guarantee anything, but I am happy about this.

Qhualor
08-20-2014, 05:39 PM
Before I work on the next round of muddling up the barbarian trees, a few questions for everyone:


What 3 things do you most want to see changed about barbarians?

What 3 things have I missed or done wrong on more recent trees?

What 3 things do you most love about barbarians?


The possibility of some future barbarian love has just got a little brighter, and although I cannot guarantee anything, but I am happy about this.

1. improved self sufficiency

defense (barb DR im looking at you mostly)

barbarians need to be top dog toe to toe melee dps. that means probably looking into THF, but not to say I dont think the trees should accommodate TWF as well.

2. as I have said before, im not a math guy. I am a hands on kind of player. I have no clue how well some of this stuff would translate over into DDO, but to reiterate my major concerns and I know its not exactly what you asked for but..

temporary hp needs to translate better into epics. its fine for heroics, but too little in epics.

heroic damage enhancements need to somehow translate better into epics, mainly looking at Ravager on that one.

Fast Healing needs to be bumped for more hp and reduced the time. a suggestion could be possible to have 3 tiers of Fast Healing that decreases the time and increases the hp regained.

Primal Scream should not be considered a spell. its an AOE and buff that currently benefits any other class in the game more than barbs. barbs cant use it when under ANY rage effect. you only get so many anyways so its not like you can abuse it and its not that powerful to be considered OP in epics.

edit to include: capstone in FB needs to be thrown out, reworked better or something. we hate it and ive never heard of any barb actually use it.

3. dps

the thrill of being in the middle of a fight surrounded by enemies and having to fight your way out of it, possibly on the brink of death

watching casters really work for their insta kills :D

tell Sev ill make some cookies if he can make the barb class next on the list. im assuming with U23 available to preview this week and Paladin just getting the finishing touches done at this point, he will be moving on to another class.

Silverleafeon
08-22-2014, 08:39 PM
Just picked up the 5th edition D&D rules and reading thru the barbarian class...

theRolf
08-22-2014, 09:40 PM
Just picked up the 5th edition D&D rules and reading thru the barbarian class...

I think you might be on to something. I read the following after doing a quick search - written from a PnP player and uses that language but interesting nonetheless.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?339963-Barbarian-vs-Fighter-vs-Monk

Would love to hear what your PnP foray yields. Thanks for all the hard work!

Silverleafeon
08-22-2014, 09:43 PM
So far the 5th edition has a 3rd edition feel to it that 4th edtion fans might like, so it could be ripe for plucking...

Silverleafeon
08-25-2014, 11:01 PM
Our Barbarian pass will not be 23; we are currently planning at looking into Barbarians for 24, assuming plans don't change. (Which they often do.)

Sev~

There it is folks, you cannot get any better than that.

We will continue working towards our goals...wrapping up Sorcerer project and will try to press out the next round very soon.

Silverleafeon
08-28-2014, 05:28 PM
Logging into Lamania to try to get a better feel for MMR as we were proposing MMR instead of evasion for the OS tree.
Have not forgotten you folks, will do more soon.

DrWily
08-29-2014, 02:57 PM
Logging into Lamania to try to get a better feel for MMR as we were proposing MMR instead of evasion for the OS tree.
Have not forgotten you folks, will do more soon.
Haven't forgotten you either. I think MMR works better for OS than Evasion, especially since you can still splash 2 Rogue for it if you don't mind losing the Capstone, and then you can have both.

Silverleafeon
08-30-2014, 05:39 PM
Haven't forgotten you either. I think MMR works better for OS than Evasion, especially since you can still splash 2 Rogue for it if you don't mind losing the Capstone, and then you can have both.

Yes, I loved my Barbarian splash Rogue lives the best.
The skill points offered by barbarian allowed one to easily deal with traps skills.
The ref was low, but helped at times, and I could have built/geared much better if I tried harder.


My Pally on lamania has somehere near 200+ PPR and 125ish MMR, and those numbers carry her very, very well.

So for the Core OS we could probably go with 5~10 bonus MMR per Core and do well.
Probably will not be able to ask for a whole lot higher.
Perhaps scaling upward with each higher core would be good?


I probably need to log into lamania and reroll into a barbarian, now that I given feedback on the raid.

Those +20 hearts are awesome.

Silverleafeon
09-01-2014, 12:18 AM
Lamania build

Pally are LG so it took 2 hearts to get to Barbarian.
2HF ~ Stunning Blow ~ IC Slash type

Put on an orchard medium named armor + Epic Minos
My PPR is 122 (54% less damage) and my MMR is 53 (34% less damage)

Spent 50 points in OS on all the decent stuff, definitely need some improvement in that tree.
No changes in PPR or MMR.

My goal would be for OS to get around 100~125 MMR total.
So, it would be nice to get 50 bonus from the OS tree even if part of it was from tier 5.

There are six core which could contain:

5
6
7
8
9
10
for a total of 45

maybe place 10 in the tier 5 area
for a total of 55 + 53 = 108

DrWily
09-01-2014, 02:52 PM
Seems reasonable.

Dear Turbine: Please give Knockout a DC so that way lv3 players are no longer able to single-handedly kill lv28 players in PvP.

Silverleafeon
09-02-2014, 08:13 PM
Quick review in my mind as I log into Lamania to give weapon bonds a try out.


Put Spell Resitance back into capstone of OS
Add MMR into Core OS


Add Bull Rush 1 + 2 attacks into Ravanger
{I will not promise, but I have hopes that Sev/Varg can create that technology.}


Fix Cracking Attack.
Fix weak skill bonus
Fix other Attack


Add Melee Power into per barbarian level into Rage /// +20 Crit bonuses


Review last several pages for other great suggestions.



WEapons bond notes:

Epic Orchard Wilderness.
gained about 10~15 per encounter grouping

Gained 156 upon arrival at GoP quest, after killing every mob I encountered.
Critical Hit bonus did not appear, which I consider very, very bad and must be corrected, preferably by eliminating the health requirement lower tier choice.

I consider that length of questing long enough to merit a shrine, which means weapon bond numbers are far too high atm.

Silverleafeon
09-03-2014, 03:57 AM
Changes to round 13

Power of the Barbarian Rage

While you are in a state of Barbarian Rage you gain Melee Power equal to your Barbarian Levels.

AP cost 2


Removed HP cost, AC reduction, and reduced cooldown of cracking attack.


;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Round 4 Ravager changes.

Removed a tier 4 and tier 5 guard and replaced them with Bull Rush and Bull Charge.
Left these open for Sev to fill in the math on them.
I think he can come up with something good.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;


Put Spell Resitance back into capstone of OS
Added MMR into Core OS and Tier 5

Adjusted Weapon Bond numbers which have been even now, far too high.



.....................................


My numbers might be a bit conservative, however with the recent reduction of melee power in other places, and examination of MMR, my number are fairly good, if a bit on the light side.

Onetunge
09-03-2014, 07:50 AM
Just an idea.

How about adding enhancement that let's Barb drink more potions at the same time.
3 upgrades of enhancement that let's Barb drink (+1/+2+3) potions at the same time.

Silverleafeon
09-03-2014, 06:07 PM
Just an idea.

How about adding enhancement that let's Barb drink more potions at the same time.
3 upgrades of enhancement that let's Barb drink (+1/+2+3) potions at the same time.

I like that thank you.

Hmm...which tree is the "heavy drinker"?

I think I saw a tree with some boring skill stuff at level 1 during the last round.
Will place it there.

During my next and probably last round now.
In it, I will placing melee power in hard to reach spots to boost barbarian DPS.

Then, I will be creating a "Player Projects Index" inside the player's council with the idea that this project's final report will more visible if part of a bigger thread.

Silverleafeon
09-03-2014, 06:29 PM
You folks have been great, and I appreciated the reception and feedback here.

THANK YOU ALL VERY, VERY MUCH!

YOU HAVE BEEN EXTREMELY HELPFUL.

I COULD NOT HAVE DONE THIS WITHOUT ALL OF YOU!

THANK YOU AGAIN!


Changes for the final round.

Heavy Drinker inserted into Lessons of Nature tier 3 in the OS tree with the restriction of only applying while under a barbarian rage.

10 Melee power each added to tier 5 and capstone of Frenzy.
20 Melee power added to Ravager capstone, and Ravager guard is removed.


Please post as you wish, the time approaches for possible NDA for me and barbarians.
This thread will be watched and if I cannot comment, I will post acknowledgement.

Once again, thank you.

MangLord
10-07-2014, 03:35 AM
I hadn't seen this thread before, and I'd be really excited to be excited about barbarians again. As this thread is 11 pages long, I apologize if I reiterate previous suggestions, but here's a couple things that have been on my mind, just as rough ideas working with the general DDO concept of barbarians and some changes I think would be cool and viable in high level epic content.

As far as the basic Barbarian bonus stuff, like trap sense, it may as well be done away with unless there's a reasonable chance that a barbarian can make it through a series of HE traps alive. Some areas have entire halls full of traps, and just making it through the first one is not enough. I'd rather have +5 hp or +1 damage instead of the trap bonus. It's just useless for DDO standards.

Uncanny dodge is really great, but it lasts for a fraction of a single epic encounter, with a painfully long cooldown. Doubling the duration or reducing the cooldown seems reasonable.

Barbarian Rage is good overall, but limits builds with the inability to self heal with a split build. Personally, I don't have an issue with this, as I'd prefer a great single-class build, but something needs to be done to allow pure barbarians to not be such a burden on the party healer. I'd like to see massive DPS vs self healing be a build choice, rather than an obvious choice of both. That leads me into my next point.

I like the premise of potion creation for self healing purposes, but barbarians are supposed to be bloodthirsty warriors devoted to a life of battle, and creating potions seems to more the domain of wizards, clerics or alchemists. My personal suggestion would be a tree-tiered "Thirst for Blood" or "Bloodlust" that applies a tiered vampiric effect tied to Rage. It keeps to the core premise of what a barbarian is, and allows them to self heal to some degree while staying in the thick of the fight. THF grazing hit chance should apply to the vampiric effect when dealing with mobs, as should cleaves, because that's where mobs will annihilate you. It should be advantageous for a greatweapon barbarian to remain in battle and apply DPS with enough healing as to not be a party burden. I don't expect to leave a tough fight at full or even half health, i just don't want to die immediately on sight of the first wave and be dead weight. While raged, a top tier vampiric rage should apply to an overall bloodlust effect, rather than if the enemy actually has blood, in terms of undead and constructs. It is the act of heroicism that drives the hero, rather than the individual enemy. The vicious effect is good on paper, but serves as a mana sink for the poor cleric in your party and doesn't allow them to help other party members when they need to focus so much attention on the barbarian. I don't care how much damage you're putting out, a wave of EH enemies is going to win that battle of attrition if you stay surrounded, especially if you're hurting yourself to apply more damage. Shintao monk has a somewhat similar effect that would serve as a good basis to build a vampiric effect around.
First tier may be a 1hp effect per hit while under the influence of barbarian rage, and work its way up the tiers as such when THF, -50% when SWF, SnB and TWF:
1st tier - 1hp per hit while raged, 1hp when missed
2nd tier - 1d3 hp per hit while raged, 1d2hp when missed
3rd tier - 1d6 hp per hit while raged, 1d3hp when missed
4th tier - 2d4 hp per hit while raged, 1d4hp when missed
5th tier - 2d6 hp per hit while raged, 2d4 hp when missed with a 6d6 AOE burst on a vorpal hit.
It doesn't look outrageous to me, given that barbarians will often be swarmed by mobs. I think it would apply enough incoming heals to ease a bit of strain from the healer and allow her to shift attention to the rest of the party red bars once in a while.

In my opinion, barbarians make a lot of sacrifices in terms of armor and versatility as opposed to fighters, but don't currently gain that raw power DPS edge in DDO. In order to compete with, and hopefully surpass a kensei in raw DPS numbers (which they should), I'd like to see some more truly impressive critical bonuses, even if they don't occur as often as Kensei. Perhaps a +1 to critical modifier as a tier 5 ability?
The "Weapon Bond" enhancement has always bothered me. I've never encountered a player with nice things to say about it. It seems to be universally disliked to some degree, depending on playstyle. Some people equip their LitII greataxe at level 12 and don't switch until level 20. DDO presents us with a wide variety of enemies, and I usually have 2-3 weapons easily available for just about every quest. If you happen to have fully tiered TF Mortal Fear weapons, then fine, but I doubt most of the player base have those. Using the Thunder Peak raid as an example, I'll keep a banishing and disruption weapon on hand to deal with both the outsider and undead mobs and switch between frequently. I switch even more often in heroic quests. I'd like to see Weapon Bond retain the original spirit, but streamline it into a multiselector similar to kensei focus. For example, if you were to take a slashing weapon bond (or even further focus it to greataxe bond), so long as you have a slashing weapon equipped, you gain the stacking bonus, or apply it as a 10% to hits or kills. It could easily be edited into a baby blitz (which it sorta is to some degree) or tiny fury. The weapon no longer matters so much as the continual combat or extra single strike boost. That leads me into my next suggestion.

Given that FotW seemed to be originally designed for barbarians in mind, retrofitting that theme in clickie form seems to be a natural fit. Instead of slightly effective ear smashes and situational clickies with long cooldowns, how about a tiered, all-purpose adrenaline-style clickie for an extra-powerful brute strength strike? Just as a starting point, perhaps the first tier applies your strength bonus to your critical threat range, then grows to apply double STR bonus and a boost to crit multiplier? For example:
"Swing For the Fences"
Tier 1- Single enemy strike- Apply your STR modifier to crit range
Tier 2- Single enemy strike- Apply 2x your STR modifier to crit range
Tier 3- Single enemy strike- Apply 2x your STR modifier to crit range +1 multiplier
Tier 4- Single enemy strike- Apply 3x your STR multiplier to crit range +1 multiplier
Tier 5- Single enemy strike- Apply 3x your STR multiplier to crit range +2 multiplier

For the sake of build and flavor diversity, I'd like to see Ravager be redesigned as a TWF tree. It would require very few tweaks to the Tempest tree to tailor it to barbarians, really. In my opinion, TWF still fits the wild barbarian mold. Conan and historical vikings usually used one handed weapons, and I can't think of a more prototypical barbarian. Monkey Grip alone as a ravager capstone would be very attractive. Of course it should not apply grazing hits, but people would go ape**** (pardon the pun) to dual wield falchions.

MangLord
10-07-2014, 03:58 AM
I like the concept of Heavy Drinker. It seems to weave well into the barbarian theme. However, IMO, Barbarians should not be allowed to create potions or deal with magical creation of any kind. By their nature they shun and fear magic. It's the antithesis of the barbarian paragon. If they create powerful healing draughts with the blood of their vanquished foes, then sure. We could achieve a simple, similar result with a tier 1 Heavy Drinker +10% +3% healing amp/+25% +6% healing amp/+50% +10% healing amp increase to potion/healing efficiency and duration, scaling/stacking with other healing amp, heal skill and devotion. Just off the top of my head, the only potions I can see being abused with this benefit are Yugo pots, and people already abuse them worse than a wino with a bag full of of MD 20/20. It's not like platinum cost is going to stop people from stocking them up and chugging as needed, and you still need to earn them by grinding an outdated area. If I could get a 100hp heal off stopping DPS and chugging a CSW pot, I'd be happy with that at heroic levels. Lord knows that hirelings aren't going to come through in a pinch.

It wouldn't be overwhelming if the core enhancements came with +1 damage, +1 dodge and +1 saves. It would get interesting if level 12 and 18 gave a +1 critical multiplier. I'd definitely make a pure barbarian for raw DPS based on that.

Given that kensei gets a ton of additional damage to their focused weapon, I'd like to see Barbarian get something on a similar DPS level, but perhaps more given the wealth of fighter feats and total reliance on supplemental healing when raged.

I'm also totally fine with dumping the extraneous, slightly more effective cleave effects in favor of tiered vampirism boosts and single click, awesome single enemy DPS akin to Fury. If I can stack these at epic levels, then Fury would look really awesome for single target blasts for barbarians. My pure ranger can get four 7000 pt crits every two minutes with a furyshot, so it needs to be better than that, considering his buff spells, light armor dodge and wealth of inherent skill points per level. There is no reason a ranger furyshot should be better than a massive, stackable barbarian fury THF strike assuming all melee bonuses are applied. I don't see a 40k barbarian blast as being game breaking, considering my ranger can avoid most enemies and reliably burst DPS on bosses for 25k+ every couple of minutes.

Given that barbarians are in deadly striking range at all times, I'd like to see some seriously brutal effects available to them.

Scrabbler
10-07-2014, 09:22 AM
For the sake of build and flavor diversity, I'd like to see Ravager be redesigned as a TWF tree.
Ravager already is a TWF tree... features like Cruel Cut are much better when they can proc twice at once, and the Critical Rage in t5 is better with Pick or Khop than with two-handers.

MangLord
10-08-2014, 11:07 AM
Ah ok. It's been a while since I've played a barbarian.

Qhualor
10-08-2014, 12:28 PM
Eberron barbarians are wanderers often alone or in small groups, not bloodthirsty savages. Although FB doesn't come across that way.

Silverleafeon
10-08-2014, 06:26 PM
THANKS!

Unable to respond, as Barbarians have now become NDA for me.
But still reading and pondering your thoughts.

the_one_dwarfforged
10-09-2014, 01:27 AM
Ravager already is a TWF tree... features like Cruel Cut are much better when they can proc twice at once, and the Critical Rage in t5 is better with Pick or Khop than with two-handers.

its equally useful for 2hers and 1hers. it is better for weapons with a higher crit multiplier and a lower crit range (axes, picks) than it is for weapons with the opposite (curved blades). still great for all.

Damion01
10-09-2014, 02:20 PM
What if the developers created a final tier of barbarian rage or add to Mighty Rage:

Throw Your Barbarian Weight Around: Choose the same Weapon Type from Barbarian Weapon Training, You may use your Constitution modifier to determine the damage you deal with said weapon.

I would imagine if a barbarian punched you in the face due to his physical conditioning, it would hurt... a lot... like seriously.
So why is it that the barbarians physical conditioning doesnt also apply to his combat damage with weapons?.. this shouldn't be exclusive to dwarven barbarians.

If Rage was redesigned or an enhancement redesigned, i think this would give all barbarians overall a nice boost to overall performance. But ofcourse making it exclusive to barbarians, as to not be abused by other classes.

Any thoughts?

barecm
10-22-2014, 08:37 AM
Raging Fury seems a bit overpowered... You receive +3 Crit multiplier on a 19-20 roll while raged. I would assume Tier 3 TF Khopesh would be 4.5 {1d8} +12 19-20 x3 and x6 on natural 19-20! Not including any enhancements or Epic Destiny abilities to boost things further? I would think +1 is powerful enough imho.